Hello, and welcome to this episode of Superhero Ethics. When a beloved animated
series is turned into a live action show, a lot of things can go
wrong, some things can go really right, and in some cases there have
been examples of this that are utterly beloved. In some there are ones that
I love it but nobody else does, like Cowboy Bebop, but certainly a
thing that has a lot of trepidation attached to it. No more so,
I think than with the show that will be launching in just a few days
after this podcast comes out, the live action Avatar The Last Airbender. I
will be doing episode by episode coverage of it, probably two episodes at a
time, on one episode, possibly with the help of some of the guests
that I have on today. But today we're going to talk about the animated
series. And we're doing this for a couple of reasons. One is because
many of you may not have seen the animated series. I want to have
some idea of what it is going into this show. Personally, as good
as I think this podcast will be, I think you'd have a lot better
time hitting stop and then watching the show itself instead. But the show is
going to be about forty hours, and this podcast is going to be closer
we hope to sixty to ninety minutes. Fingers majorly crossed because Paul is one
of the guests, but also for those who have seen it, this is
meant to be kind of a you know, a refresher we haven't seen it
in a while, but even more so, we're gonna be discussing not a
like, oh, what do we expect from the show based on the trailers
and the news we have all been trying it for the most part, avoid
all of that, but instead just talking about one of the things that we
love about this show, the animated version, that we think are kind of
essential to the show, and that'll really like not work unless this is in
some way explored in this live action. So it's kind of a primer for
the live action, but without being all about the trailers and the spoilers,
just being about what it is we feel about the original show, mostly what
we love, maybe not highly, and how that can translate to live action.
So I'm going to introduce teaching my guests and give the chance to I
tell you their name and who they are, but also how did they first
watch the show? How did they come to it and kind of what was
their first impression of it. And Paul, since I already mentioned you and
your long windedness and how you encourage my long windedness, that's just as much
my fault as yours, as proven by this long winded intro that I'm now
making even more long winded by a tangent about the long windedness. And I'm
really tempted to go into another tangent about the tangent, but I'm just gonna
say, Paul, take it away. Sure, I'm Paul for Happyaks and
Madman. I watched this show actually for the first time in twenty ten while
writing, or more specifically, while not writing my first book, Way of
the Poker Warrior, which is like available nowhere, but actually I guess you
can find it on Lean Pup. I think it's on Amazon, but I
don't get any royalties from that because the publisher died and I don't know.
It's very complicated the point the copy that'll sell for the best offer of nice
I mean, there's I have the PDF. But so I was like deep
in a process of like trying to do something for the first time, trying
to learn it well, you know, kind of trying to like combine martial
arts and poker, which fits really well but also kind of doesn't or doesn't
in like an obvious way necessarily. And and my wife was like, hey,
do you want to watch this? I was like, yeah, sure,
girlfriend at the time, but we were like and I just the first
few episodes I enjoyed, and just over time I just liked it more and
more. You know, I found that I identified a lot with the main
character, aang and for various reasons, but you know, among them like
the obvious sort of ones, so that like he's a vegetarian. There's not
a lot of vegetarian protagonists in fiction, you know, especially in either animated
or like live action like on screen fiction, right, And so I liked
that, but also just kind of his personality of, you know, dealing
with a lot of heavy stuff. And I'd say the show more broadly also
deals with a lot of really heavy stuff, you know, like war and
genocide and death, and but I feel like it does it all with a
very light touch, and I feel like it manages to find humor not necessarily
from the horrible things, but like in spite of the horrible things, and
there are I could think of at least one specific movie that I won't name
because I don't want to get into it, but that like I felt like
kind of tried to do that and it felt like just a glaring mismatch and
a clash that felt like awful to me. And somehow I feel like the
show gets away with it and actually manages to pull it off in a way
that resonates with me, you know. And I think some other people probably
found this movie or like other movies like to be able to do that as
well, but to me, it feels like a very rare thing to be
able to succeed in. And so, you know, the not all of
the humor in the show is like necessarily oriented towards my sense of humor,
but I feel like there is a pervasive there is humor coming from the characters
more than just from the situations a lot of the times, and you know,
and sometimes maybe some of that's even how they're dealing with the difficulties that
they face, you know. And then as the show goes on, like
it has you know, spoilers, but like one of the best redemption arcs
I've ever seen, maybe the best even you know, it has themes of
like found family, and it has animal non human animal characters who are characters,
and one of whom actually gets like a whole episode, you know,
And you know that episode is mostly devoted to his suffering, which you know,
is I think says a lot of about the world we live in and
the way you know, most humans look at non humans. But but like,
that episode is one of my favorite episodes of any on screen fiction.
It's like up there with the epilogue of Justice League Unlimited, you know,
And yeah, that's that's most of it. You know. I'd say it's
one of my three favorite series of all time. And I've rewatched it many
many times, and I deliberately actually didn't rewatch it this time because I kind
of want to give a chance to the live action series to kind of live
on its own separately in my mind. And we can we can circle back
to Cowboy Bebop and how that kind of fits in with that. Actually,
sure, And Riki Hashi, what about yourself? Hi, Riki hi Ashi
here, I did not watch this show originally when it came out, only
watched it for the first time maybe a couple of years ago, and didn't
know anything about it. I was familiar that they had made a live action
movie which was much panned, and that that was only that was like my
cultural understanding of it was that it was a cartoon and then a movie,
and I didn't know anything about it. Fell in love with it almost immediately,
like maybe like three or four episodes in it really grabbed me. And
it's lovely that it's only three seasons. Yeah. Yeah, they really tell
a full arc in a concise way, which is one of the things I
like it. It doesn't linger too long and like have you know what people
call filler episodes? And I too, like Paul, I identify strongly with
the main character Uncle Iro. No, I'm kidding. Obviously, the Aang
is the main you know, the main protagonist. But I think one of
the beautiful things about this show is that so many of the secondary characters,
like probably like six or seven deep, are really fleshed out and given their
own arcs and given a chance to get to know them, and different people
can can really identify with different characters in a meaningful way and gain some appreciation
that way. So I love the show. Yeah, I very much agree
with that, and I think that's where I'll start my conversation as well,
is saying I love the show for so many reasons. First and foremost,
though, is the redemption arc of the character I most relate to, and
the one who I think is If you go way back to the archives and
listen to Paul and I talk about season one of Daredevil, we often talk
about how the show comes like a hair breadth away from making Kingpin the protagonist
of the show, and in many ways, I think Zuko is really the
second main character behind Aang and it's his redemption story and it's one that I
feel I think it says a lot about, you know, our relative positions
that for me, that's the one I very much identify with. And I'll
talk pretty honestly about that because i've and at the time that I watched it,
that was really important, because I will say that when I first heard
about this show, I was still in a place where I kind of looked
down my nose at animation. I really liked Disney animation, and I thought
there was a lot of fun kid stuff, like I loved the music from
Little Mermaid and Aladdin and stuff like that, and I thought cartoons were fun.
But I didn't look to them for serious discussion of the kind of issues
that I liked. And there were a couple of shows that were recommended to
me that I think really changed my perspective on that, and Paul was the
main driver, I think, for all three of getting me to watch them,
and they were Avatar, The Last Airbender, Star Wars, The Clone
Wars, and Batman the animated series. And I will say the first time
with this show, like Paul, I really liked what you said about like
finding that balance of humor, because I'll admit I didn't and I and to
this day, I still don't love the first season of the show because cuz
my impression at least is that it does the first season is a little bit
more on the childish, he slapsticky side of the humor, which is one
that I just don't react well to. And so and it does give me
some trepidations about where we're going in season one, although I do think that
season one winds up having some incredible plot lines. But I also think that
I did rewatch it the last couple of days, and one of the things
that I really got out of it was that, to me, a big
part of what the show is about is about the like I forget where I
heard this first, but there's kind of an old child. There's an old
cliche about like all of the terrible things that are life, and you have
to learn to be cynical, and you have to learn to be to not
trust people that you know. You can say children are idiots because they haven't
learned that, or you can say children are the one who should lead us
because they haven't learned those things, and that innocence is such an important thing,
and for me, that's a huge part of I think what makes this
story work so well, and what makes Aang work so well is, at
least as I understand it, Aang is present. Most of the kids are
like early pubescent. I think they're supposed to be like thirteen to fifteen or
sixteen, with Aang being a little Aang being clearly youngest and at least and
maybe even yeah, twelve and maybe even chronologically but closer. But you know,
it seems like Zuko has gone through puberty. All of the people in
Zuko's crowd have gone through puberty, Katara has, Sokka's in the middle of
it. Aang hasn't yet and for me, that's a big part of kind
of what is able to set him apart and kind of make the humor really
work, which I have a lot of thoughts about. But let me kind
of stop there and let anyone comment or or either what I said or what
anyone else said. Well, I said twelve, but he's actually one hundred
and twelve, So right, he has been frozen in carbonite, forgive me,
frozen in the South Pole, forgiv me, frozen at the bottom of
the map for one hundred a year that he has aged twelve years. Yeah,
and to me, there's this sort of like this combination of wisdom and
you know, you could call it innocence, but I'm not sure that's exactly
the word I would use. But like, you know, over the course
of the series, like he sees a lot of bad things and is confronted
with a lot of situations where it's very difficult to not make, you know,
the hard choice or whatever. And I mean, you know, because
it's fiction, sometimes there might be like a third way, right, and
but like I think manages to come out of it still being the same person,
which I think is often a lot of you know, a lot of
people tend to there's an idea that like a story is supposed to be about
a character changing, right, And I think a story can be about a
character not changing. Of course, if you wanted to say it has to
be about a character changing, then Zuko would be the main character, you
know. But and I will say as an aside that I do identify much
more now with Uncle Iro, maybe partially because I resemble him more in a
shape than at the time I didn't. But but no, I mean Uncle
Iro is also one of my favorite characters of all time. And even if
Aang's my favorite protagonist, I can't say that I necessarily like him more as
a character than Iro. Like it's it's just and there's there's other characters in
the show though also that I think are such great characters that kind of are
are are unique, don't feel like just like art types, you know.
And in terms of you know, the the much maligned adaptation, one of
the things that I think M Night Shamalan, who I believe wrote and directed
it, said and was a producer like that he didn't want to have that
kind of humor in in the movie because he just didn't like that, like
he watched it with his kid and thought there's a lot of great stuff in
it, but just didn't want to And I feel like you can't. You
cannot play that up as much as maybe the first season did. You know,
you can like try and not make it as much of it, But
I feel like if you really try to excise that from the story, I
just think you're not gonna get something that carries the same I don't know,
sort of like spirit as the show. So I don't know. I think
you're you're left necessarily with something fundamentally different that could be good on its own,
but I think you I think you have to maintain some of the humor,
some of the sense of humor of the characters at least, otherwise they're
just not the same people at all. In my view. No, I
wont one hundred percent agree. And I would say maybe childlike wonder is the
better word for him than innocence, and that he has this like they're in
the middle of the war and he's so like, we have to go find
the weapon, we have to go find the the thing that will allow us
to win. But oh my god, here's this cool animal who I can
like run on and write right. And I love the point you made about
this being the story where the protagonist doesn't change, because I think it was
that the protagonist is unaffected by the events of the story. Then that's often
not great writing. To me, it's more that this is an experience that
would be the darkening moment for so many characters, like this is the they
get PTSD from this, or they become more cynical or become And to me,
it's really about him, not that he doesn't change because he's not affected,
is that he is struggling so hard not to change and not to be
changed by all the things that happened to him. Yeah, I think the
strongest part of Aang's character is that he changes the world. Obviously as the
hero, like he saves the world. But what I mean specifically here is
we're talking like full spoilers, right, Like we're just talking about what happens
in the series. At the end in the finale, everyone's like, you
have to kill fire Lord OZI, right, that's your destiny is the avatar.
You have to kill him, and he chooses not to kill him,
and that is the moment of his heroism in my opinion, that he makes
this moral choice, and I you know, I'm not as satisfied with how
he manages that with the magic of the now, I know, how to
take away someone's bending like that seemed a little bit sudden, But I really
like that he makes that choice and goes against the conventional thinking. Like it
felt like he comes out of the ice and to me, like that echoes
Captain America. And it's similar to in Civil War when he comes to that
point of like when the world tells you to move, like, you say
no, right, like everyone's telling ann you have to kill him. He
says, no, that's not the right thing to do. Yeah, I
think, I think that's really true. And I never even really thought of
it this way. But I think one of the things that the show really
does a great job of depicting, and it leads to what's probably my favorite
single potline and which we'll talk about, is the way that a hundred years
of war have changed the world and that you know, most of these people
are where now multiple generations away from remembering a time of peace, and so
just all of the hatreds of the other and all of the fears of we
have to make sure that we have enough because we're in such scarcity and all
that, and hasn't experienced any of that. He was frozen into the ice
literally before the war started, and so he's not experienced any of that.
I want to shift gears a bit because this brings up what is as I'm
thinking about it. One of my biggest concerns that I'm moved to live action,
and I wonder if you guys are thinking about this as well. One
of the points that I heartbom all the time in this podcast is the idea
that I've often bothered when a TV show or a movie presents the idea that
a character can choose to engage in violence that is quite you know, doing
incredible damage to bodies, but that it is non lethal, and that you
know, because I understand it. You know a lot of times when I'm
like, I'm watching Batman do things to people and I'm like, yeah,
that's plot force trauma. That that person is dead, and so Batman saying
like I will not kill doesn't make any sense. Same with Daredevil. A
lot of these things in this show. There are a certain number of instances
where Ang does things where I'm like, yeah, that person's not alive.
Anymore, except that the animation style is so it's not trying to be realistic.
In the fight scenes, like the martial arts of it feels very realistic,
but like people are constantly being thrown hundreds of feet and slammed into walls
and slammed into ice in ways that would be lethal to a human body in
a way that I think works. And again because of the animation stuff,
which is a kind of like intentionally over the top, it feels to me
like that's going to be very hard to translate to live action in a way
that I think is believable that this much combat is happening, but that aang
is intentionally choosing to never end a person's life. What's your all thought on
that it can work in live action? May Paul, you're the martial artist,
right, maybe I think I think it's a very good point. I
think I think it's less about the animation style because the people move in very
realistic ways, like actually, it's some of the best martial arts animation I've
seen, you know, and they actually were informed by like real martial arts,
and like each you know, style of bending, each nation has its
own specific like real world style of martial arts that they drew from. So
it's not so much to me about like how people move, it's about when
I mean when I watch animation. I think when people watch animation, the
brain is doing something different than when it's watching human bodies, like actual live
action humans move through space, right, Like we are seeing representations that we
recognize as representations of like the idea of a person. We're not seeing a
physical person. So I think, yeah, there's like it's easier to accomplish
that in animation, where the idea of something that is potentially lethal, like
in a lot of those things, I would say, no, that person's
not definitely dead, but like if you do that one hundred times, you
know sometimes it's going to result in death probably, right, But in animation,
because like we're already looking at these kind of like avatars of people instead
of like physical human bodies, I think there's a paradigm shift that's very easy
to make work in the whereas with live action that doesn't always that's harder to
accomplish. However, having recently watched you know, some some like Hong Kong
movies like Enter the Fat Dragon or like like there's a lot of like kind
of slapstick kung fu movies, and they managed to accomplish much the same thing,
where there is extreme violence that is just completely non lethal, and I
kind of think having that lightness, having that humor, be an element of
like that pervades the entire production. I for me, allows me to more
readily accept that something is simply not lethal in the way that it would be
in our world. And so I think a show like Daredevil or maybe some
sort of like the Dark Night version of Batman maybe are a little harder to
accept that these kind of this extreme you know, hand to hand violence can
be non lethal is a little harder to accept because it's this like dart gritty,
more real world feeling setting, right Whereas when it's just clear that the
paradigm that you know, the the the show or movie or whatever is operating
in has you know, it's like, yeah, people survive that you see
someone survive at one time, and then it's like, Okay, that's that's
what we're working with. The things that bother me are when that's clearly the
established paradigm, and then all of a sudden the writers want to kill off
a character and they're like, Okay, now physics and biology work differently because
you know, we want this to happen, you know, and then that
kind of that sort of shakes me out of the story because it's like,
well, I thought these were the rules, and now you're telling me these
are the rules. And so I would say they need to establish early on
this kind of you know, you could call it comic book book violence,
you could call it, you know, whatever you want, you know,
animated violence or whatever, but sort of establish the idea that like, yeah,
you can you can hit someone with a fireball and they're not just going
to get burns to a crisp, They're gonna get like knocked over, you
know. And it's like, if that's how it plays, that's how it
plays. I do absolutely agree, though, or I would say that it
must be harder to achieve that in live action than in animation. Yeah,
I would axpect. Yeah, Like the thing with the Bending is that,
like Earth Bending, they literally throw boulders at each other, right like that
presumably way tons I'm gonna say. And then like Fire Bending, it's it's
just fire that they are hurling at each other. And there there's a scene
where Zuko accidentally burns tough, right, Aang accidentally burns Katara by barely touching
them with some fire bending, and yet when they're fighting with the fire bending,
they're just hurling at each other and and like they put up their guard,
it's like it's still gonna burn your your forearms, right, Like you
can hide your face, but your forearms are now singed. So I agree,
like the the violence, you know, the fantastical violence, Like,
as long as it serves the story, i think we can suspend our disbelief,
I'm okay with that, and I prefer that. I actually don't like
like realistic depictions of violence, like you said in Daredevil. I haven't watched
the show, but I've seen a clip where Daredevil is literally like punching someone
to death, and I think I asked, maybe Matthew, like is this
what the rest of the show was Like? Is that? Yeah, yeah,
it's pretty representative, Like that's just not for me, Like, I
don't I don't enjoy that. Yeah, but that guy was probably fine,
by the way, because Dared Oval doesn't kill people. Yeah, exactly exactly,
But that's part of the story, right, Like that's his story,
yes, And so when violence is used that way, in stories like it
bothers me. And I'm not saying that it's wrong, it's just like not
my taste, so like I don't enjoy that as much. Yeah, I
think that makes a lot of sense. And I think, you know,
Paul, when you're talking about the style of animation, I guess what I
mean is that I feel like there's some styles of animation that are trying to
be kind of hyper realistic, whereas this one is very much not. You
know, so when you see, for example, like the character getting very
angry and in a very kind of like animation style, like you see like
all like the colors around them change their eyes bug out to five times.
That obviously doesn't happen in real life, but it's a trope of a way
to represent that. I think you're right. I think they keep the violence
more on the if they keep the violence more on the fantastical side, certainly
because we don't have actual people able to throw fireballs and ice balls and rocks
at each other in our own world, I'm able to more you know,
understanding of that, I would say the scenes where Ang causes tanks full of
people to fall off mountain cliffs, there's no degree of fantasy. That's gonna
let me think that the people in that tank have survived, and so if
we can maybe not have that exact scene, that's to me the worst.
But I definitely think that, Yeah, I think we'll all kind of agreement
that there are ways to do it in live action. It's just gonna be
something that I really hope that they're away because I at least feel that if
I'm watching these things going like, oh yeah, and kill that person,
and kill that person? Could Tara kill that person? Ang struggle about what
which Ricky you brought up that I think is such a pivot over his character
won't land as well? Right, Yeah, in the final battle, the
like part of the rest of the team is taking down airships. It's like
if those crash, the occupants are just dead. Yeah, very much so
a bunch of them land in the water. Though. I think it's like
this is a thing in animation that they often show yeah, yeah, yeah,
you know, and they do that in the you know, the old
X Men animated series, and they do that in the Justice like they show
the people like jumping out of the thing crashes down. I mean, I
think that is like a tele that could be like a television requirement you're hearing
about, g I Joe, was that they they could not show anyone presumably
dying, right, so like any time a plane is shotdown, they always
have to show the pilot parachuting out. Yeah thing. Yeah, it was
someone who grew up with that show. Yeah, it was very ridiculous,
especially the tanks, because like people always jump out of the tank right before
it blows up. It's like, how did you know your tank was going
to blow up? Yeah, So let's talk about the individual characters because I
think them and their journeys is such an important part of the show. And
Riki, let's start with you. What is it about Iro that you think
of as like when you think about like what you have to do to get
Iro right? What does that mean to you? Oh? Gosh? I
mean, first off, his voice actor is legendary Mako Iwomatsu, and tragically
he passed away I think after season one or like at the beginning of season
two, and so there was a handoff to another actor and it's noticeable.
But the new guy, I can't remember his name. I think it's Greg
Baldwin. Yeah, Greg Baldwin does a good job, like as far as
like trying to do someone else's voice. It's obviously very hard, but I
don't think it's as noticeable as like Clone Wars when Papatine's voice acting changes.
Yeah, And so there's just like a tenderness to the Iro performance, you
know, in contrast with Zuko and supporting that character. And you talked about
the redemption arc of Zuko. I think it is supported and pre dated by
Iro's redemption arc, which is largely told in flashbacks right that he was the
general the Dragon of the West, who assaulted bossingh Say and laid siege to
it for six hundred days and then failed to capture the city and came home
and had a change of heart and wanted to change the Fire nation. And
unfortunately, like at that point, I think Ozi had already taken over and
taken control and banished to go and banished Iro. And so he is also
on this arc of not only trying to redeem his himself, like his own
soul, but redeem his nation that he feels like he let down in in
like he in failing to capture the city, but also in leading this war
effort. I think is where he comes to is that not only did he
fail militarily, but he failed to be the leader that the fire Nation needed.
And that's what he's trying to impart in Zuko in the story, and
all of his lessons are just beautiful with Zuko, and he interacts with other
characters and teaches them lessons as well, and it's just wonderful to have an
antagonistic character able to play that role of mentor to your heroes. And I
don't know, I mean, like the Tales of Bossing say, episode overall
is kind of medium, but his section is just like top tier to me,
and that I think it's like five to ten minutes, but to me,
like that's all you need to know about Iro is in that episode,
and it's such a beautiful story. I cry, like I cry when Zuko
comes and apologizes to him. It's just top tier storytelling to me, and
voice acting and it just works beautifully though. I love Iro And it's kind
of like we talk about aspiring to be like heroes, right, and characters
like we want them to be inspirational to me, Iro as inspirational as a
example of positive masculinity. Yeah, and just like non violence, he obviously
like uses violence, he uses fire bending, he fights, but I think
he's reached a point where he's aspiring to a life of non violence. And
at the end when he says like, after this is done, I'm just
going to reopen my tea shop and live out my days. And I imagine
like after that point he only ever uses fire bending to heat his tea.
Right. I never really thought of it until this moment, but I feel
like there's an amazing and probably very intentional mirroring between Aang and Gliro that they're,
you know, the youngest and the oldest of the main characters we spend
time with. And you know, I talked before about how you know,
Aang is the person who, no matter how dark things get, he's going
to fight and pleasure in the simple joys of you know, splashing around in
the ocean and doing fun tricks and playing with animals and and loving animals and
relating to them. And Iro strikes me is very much the same, and
his like, well, okay, you know, we didn't find the clue
that will help us get to the enemy, but I did find a piece
for the game that I want to play, and you know, his love
of I want to call it, uh, what do you remember what the
name of it. It's kind of like a Fellow type game. It's like
it's a Fellow I remember what was reading it from one of the writers,
Like a fellow and Chess kind of mixed together. But that game his love
of tea and the there's one scene where him and Toff was part of the
Avatar gang, but they don't know that they're part of these rival groups yet
meet each other and wind up and he says, you know, there are
a few things in life better than sharing tea with an interesting stranger. And
that sort of ability to find the joy and the love of the simplicity I
think is Important's character and in a way is really to me. She feels
very much a mirroring of Aang. Yeah. I feel like they're very too.
They're two very similar characters in terms of who they are inside and kind
of how they want the world to be and in a way, how they
see the world. But Iro has seen a lot more of the world and
was born in like almost an opposite setting, right like, and grew up
in a monastery, you know, among a bunch of monks who basically you
know, sat around like hanging out with well and I mean there air nomads,
right, so it traveled a lot as well, but like you know,
hanging out with skybison and you know, being friends with animals and being
peaceful and you know, exploring the world. And Iro grew up in the
Fire Nation after it had been and you know, like hyper militarized and become
an empire, and you know, I think he was the oldest son,
right, and he was the one expected to carry on after I forget's dad's
name, Susan, his son is the okay, grandfather. Susan is the
one who starts them on the path. Yeah, Yea is named after him,
right, and then what's his name? And then Ozi. But so
I think he I think Iro was like the oldest son. He's born into,
you know, this family that's ruling this empire and is this very military
force, and so I think he becomes a general because that's what's expected of
him. And he and then he lays siege to the city. His son
dies in that siege, right, and and I think maybe that's like the
sort of triggering incident or whatever. But you know, Iro's redemption story is
is mostly backstory, right, it's mostly something that's already happened. And then
he's able to facilitate Zuko's redemption story, his redemption arc. But Zuko's redemption
arc is really like the conclusion in a way of Iro's where you know,
like Zuko's like, oh, you've got to go, you know, fight
my dad basically, and and Iro's like, then history would just remember this
battle as like one brother fighting another brother for control over an empire, you
know, and like he was like, you've got to do it, you
know, And then he doesn't fight ohs, he fights his sister. But
like, you know, the point being that, like I think it took
Ira most of his life to get to the point where he was able to
kind of become who he wanted to be, like who he was in side
to like match his behavior outside in a way. And maybe he always had
this kind of exterior of I mean, I'm sure he always loved Tea and
Pai Sho and like you know things like that, but like he was an
active general in an army that was trying to conquer other nations, you know,
and so I think he it, well, it didn't take him as
many chronological years to kind of get everything to kind of match up the same
way. But like that we get a character who's already gone through so much
and we can feel that in his actions. But also, I mean,
I think Maco did a brilliant job of like just bringing the character to life
and making the character really feel and so when you know, when we're not
going to talk about specific casting, right, but like as far as casting
goes, like that's one of the roles that to me, like you really
have to yet, right because like the bar was set so high that I
wouldn't want to compare someone to someone but like too much. Right, But
like, I think that's a very challenging role because there's so much depth from
all this stuff that happened to the character that we just don't really get to
see on screen, but we have to kind of feel it in a way.
Yeah, I think it's really true. And you're right, the sort
of love of tea and the kind of like simpleness is always there. And
because there's one point where the flashback we see a Zuko and Azula being read
one of their parents is reading them a letter that Uncle Iro sent from the
battlefield, and he starts in a very like I found a new kind of
tea. It's wonderful and isn't this sweet? And you know, I'm loving
Uncle Iro. And by the way, Sue will be able to knock down
this wall and conquer these horrible people for the glory of the fire Nation.
And it's it's so great because it is still all of those things of Iro
mixed with this other you know, the other stuff. Yeah, there's a
very important moment in Iro's character that I think is so important both for him
and for Zuko. But I'm wondering how you two see it, Which is
that one of the things about Iro, and that one of the reasons I
think why people so gravitate towards him, is he really comes across as you
know, the person who will never turn their back on you. You know,
they will always love you, they will always be there for you.
You don't have to worry about disappointing them. And there's so many scenes where
he feels like Zuko, you know, does something that his uncle doesn't want
and doesn't like, and you know when he comes back, he's like,
Uncle, you must be so disappointed in me, or you know, mad
at me, and he's like, no, I'm just I was so sad
that you are so lost, you know, these beautiful stepments of love.
But then in the beginning of the third season, Zuko has given a chance
to turn his back on the Avatar, turn his back on his uncle,
and rejoin the Fire Nation and take up the position of you know, his
father's right hand that he was trying so hard for in the first season.
And then Ira was so proud of him for letting go of his desire for
that, And as a result, Ira is arrested and Zuko gets all his
power and privilege and position again. And in this really beautiful scene, Zuko
goes down to the prison to try and talk to Iiro and I think,
try that so to say like, look, I hope you understand why I
did this, And Iro turns his back on him and just refuses to talk
to him. And I am not sure is it supposed to be, because
even Ira has a breaking point, and even Iro has a point where he
will say like I may love you, but I cannot support you. I
cannot be there for you anymore, which I don't think would be a portrayal
of the character. I think would be a very true thing for the character,
and a really important message of like, you know we you know where
we can go? Or do you think it is that he just strategically understands
that anything he does, any kind of response he has, is going to
wind up coming off as enabling to his nephew. And it is only by
feigning a complete lack of any empathy or desire to relate to his nephew anymore
that he can help give the nephew his pors she needs to come back to,
like doing the right thing. Yeah. I interpret that as kind of
IRA's final lesson, which is that Zuko has to figure it out on his
own, like he Zuko made the choice to betray the Avatar or to betray
Iro in return to the Fire Nation, and so at that point he has
the agency and he has to make the choice again later to betray his father
and to decide to join the Avatar's group and Zuko, I mean sorry,
Iro no ows what has to happen for like Zuko's redemption, but he can
no longer tell him what to do anymore because it's kind of like him Zuko
growing up, right, Like this is his moment where he has to decide
who he's going to be. I think is like literally words that he says
earlier to him, like you have to decide your own path, I think
he said in the moments before betrayal at the end of season two, and
so like he's holding true to that and turning his back not saying anything because
he's already told him what he has to do. You have to decide your
own path. I couldn't agree more. That's that's like exactly how I've always
seen it, and I think it's definitely not Iro giving up on Zuko.
I think he is deeply saddened that Zuko hasn't come to the conclusion. He
hopes that he will yet, because I think that opportunity and a vision of
what could be, what else could be Zuko has seen right, he has
been able to see, Okay, things can be different. I don't have
to be the guy looking for the avatar all the time. I don't have
to be like my father's son, basically in terms of like his heir to
this empire. So Iro showed him that possibility, and so did circumstance.
Right life brought him to the understanding that things don't have to be that way.
But he also understands that there's a way that Zuko always had things in
his mind of repairing, you know, regaining his honor and like going back
and then following in his father's footsteps, basically being at his side and then
taking over it for him, presumably even though we all know a zula would
have been the way to take over anyway. But like he now, he
needs to see how things would be if he got his wish from the beginning,
and he needs to understand that's not really what he wants. And I
think Iro hopes that that's what will happen. I don't think he knows that
will happen, right, I mean, I don't think you can know that
will happen. But I think he maybe he trusts that, like Zuko has
seen enough of the other possibilities, that Iro has given him everything that he
can give him, and that now Zuko has to He has to make the
decision himself. Right. It can't be Iro talking him into it in a
conversation. It has to be Zuko seeing things can be one way, seeing
how things are the way he thought he wanted them, and then deciding which
way do I want them to be? Who do I want to be?
You know, what role do I want to play in all of this,
and you know, and then then he makes his choice, and yeah,
it's crazy. Critically, like when Zuko makes his decisions, he has these
like pretend conversations with Iro, like he does his bad irosion, like well,
what Uncle Iro saying right is like? And he comes up with very
like bs philosophical sounding nonsense, but it guides him on the right path.
It's like, even though the actual Iro doesn't say anything to him at that
point, thereafter he has the Iro inside of him to guide him right.
And that's really what teaching and mentoring is. I think it's not about being
with someone every step of the way. It's like giving someone as much guidance
and wisdom and knowledge as you can and then leaving that with them. They
have that and they can take that with them and then use that in whatever
capacity they can manage to right. It's the classic devil and angel on your
shoulders. But ultimately, even though you're having these pretend conversations with good and
evil, it comes from within you, like the final decision. Yes,
yeah, it's interesting because I see that scenes so differently for me because for
me, one of the keys it is that is happening. Iro is also
like barely eating and he's he's like There's a later scene in episodes later where
Iro, I think, gets reminded that there is hope. I think someone
gives him a piece from the game, and he all of a sudden starts
to you know, train his body again and think about escaping and things like
that. But all that happens after this conversation with Zuko, and I took
it not as him, probably not that he would consciously say that he's given
up, but then he's lost a lot of hope. Like I kind of
saw this as Iro at his most broken because of how much he had thought
that they're like. And I think a lot about his role in the family
that he is. You know, he has seen the brokenness of his entire
family, and he is very much the literal and as well as figurative outcast
of the family, and yet Zuko has become his ally at Zuko has become
the like no, I also see all the brokenness in the family, and
then Zuko turns his back on him. And I love supportive you know characters
like that who will catch people when they fall and be like, yeah,
you did the really terrible thing here, but I still love you and all
that. I guess for me, when that the degree of that becomes almost
superhuman, it kind of loses something from me. So for me, I
think it's a very important moment that even Iro has his limits of you know,
that he maybe that he has some of that strategic thought in mind,
but also that he he just doesn't want to, you know, show love
and show forgiveness and comfort to Zuku at this moment because of all, you
know how he feels about it all. And I think it is a I
imagine that you know, in terms of writer's intent, it was probably a
lot more of what you guys are talking about, but maybe some of what
I'm talking about as well. But I think it is a statement to how
good the act stating in the writing and the scene is that it's unclear that
it's like left is kind of like what exactly is happening here, particularly because
there is no moment to the end where Iro says, you know, please
know, I would have never turned my back on you. I only did
that because you needed it. Like, there's no sort of moment where Iro
explains his actions in that moment, right, I mean, so First of
all, I don't. I don't see it as a superhuman level of like
not giving up on someone. I find it very relatable in very specific ways.
But I do think he feels heartbroken and betrayed. Like I think he
was really hoping that Zuko was gonna, you know, not rejoin you know,
his dad with the Fire Nation and just gonna find his own way,
a different way, you know. So I don't think he's like he has
no emotions about it. I don't think he's like, oh, yes,
okay, well he just needs to go through this and whatever. But I
think he has understanding of that, maybe not that Zuku that this is what's
going to happen, but that like, if Zuko is going to change his
life, he's going to have to be the one to do it, you
know. I think that's true. But and of course there's uncertainty. I
mean, there's there's always uncertainty. I don't I don't think he has some
like unyielding faith that Zuko that you know, the goodness in Zuko is gonna
win out or whatever. But I think I think that's his hope. And
but I do think I mean, I I've been in a situation where like
I felt like I did everything I could to try and give someone whatever might
be helpful of whatever I had to offer, and then they have to make
their choice about what they want to do, you know, and like that's
not I I didn't and I don't view that as giving up. I view
that as like, at the end of the day, people have to make
their own decisions, right, That's like I totally agree, And I think
the super human comment was false. I get a better way, I guess
of saying it is of me. I feel like I rowe until this point
has been able to like basically put his his own emotional response to Zuko's actions
were not going to be the focus. He was going to focus more on
being a mentor and a parent figure instead of having his own emotional reaction of
I am angry at you, and I think that that's what I'm more.
Yeah, and I will just tack on, like I don't really care what
the writers in tent was, like if they say, oh, this is
what we met, Like, I don't care. I care what they put
on screen. I am happy with my interpretation of it. I'm happy to
hear other people's interpretations of it. I think it's cool that like different people
can see it a little different, you know, Like I don't think that's
a problem. I don't think that's necessarily like a deliberate oh, we want
to make this vague. But I do think like anytime, you know,
unless you have characters always just like speaking their motivation like out loud every single
time, which strikes me as usually quite poor writing, there's always going to
be room for interpretation. I think that's nice, you know, And I
like that it allows more people to kind of relate to characters, and it
allows more people to kind of draw something that they enjoy from it. And
so I think I think that's cool, you know, and good. Yeah,
I agree one hundred percent. Like when it comes to villains, you
know, relatable villains that we identify with, it is often because their motivations
are a bit murkier and they don't just say, like I want to do
this because like blah blah blah, like those are what we often referred to
is us mustache twirling right right, and so like even in this story,
the villainy of some of the characters I think is interesting, Like I guess
we should transition to Zuko right, like often related to Iro, but Zuko
starts this story out as a villain, and he does have his whole like
I have to capture the Avatar because my father. But but it's I think
there's something so relatable about the fact that it's his father, right, like
right, right, I mean we have to because we all have fathers,
and not everyone has relationships with him. But when you do, like you
you feel that, like the disappointing your father is probably one of the most
devastating, like relatable things in many of our lives, I feel like,
and so part of the story of Zuko is that for me, the line
that comes to mind is from Guardians of Galaxy Too at the end of that
where he says he may be your father, but he'll never be your daddy.
I think is the line, right, And Ozi is Zuko's biological father,
but in the end he chooses Iro as his daddy, he chooses the
ideals of Ira, and I think, like, that's that's what makes Zuko
such a great character for me. Yeah, I think it's really true.
And I think you know, I said before that Zuko is the character I
most relate to because I think I've I've been a pretty horrible person at various
points in my life, and somebody who talks to him about on this podcast
and made decisions that that hurt people quite a lot. And it's the fact
that I think often one of the things I don't like about redemption story is
is this idea that you you have a moment where all of a sudden you're
better and now you have you know, you've saved your son from the evil
person, or you've you know, decided to do good and now everything is
better and everyone accepts you. And Zukho really struggles to find redemption. He
really struggles because, in part because it's not like there's a clear moral compass
that he is rejecting and then deciding to accept again. He has been taught
all of his life that finding your father's honor and being honored in the eyes
of your father and your community is the moral good thing, and so he's
looking for that, and it's the he is questioning that and then then going
back on it and finding, you know, which way to turn, And
for me, the fact that his stumbles and they're like, he wants to
do the right thing, but he he wants to do the right thing,
but he also wants to go back to do the comfortable thing, and that
he wants to do the right thing but isn't always sure what that is.
And then that especially in the latter half of season three, when he really
has realized that he can't be that person anymore and he wants to join with
the Avatar and help the Avatar, and I don't welcome him with open arms.
And there's one scene in particular that I really incredibly related to because one
of the things I found it and I've talked with others, you know,
who've had moments like this of where like I'm trying to show people that I'm
not the person who I used to be, and I'm trying to do the
right thing. And I don't want to get into the exact details of what
happened in my own life, but like, there was a moment that I
described as like, you know, if everybody knows you're an alcoholic and someone
sees you drinking ginger ale in a dark bar and thinks that it's a beer
something that I did being seen by someone who doesn't understand the context or doesn't
even know like a fat factor to about it, or you know, misunderstoods
whatever it is, but just that feeling of doing trying to do the right
thing and having it be seen as not as good as you think it is
because you haven't really understood the depth of what you did wrong incredibly relatable.
But then that also happening of the doing the right thing but having it be
misunderstood because the suspicion people have of you for very legitimate reasons, and those
things happening at the same time, and just the feeling of like, how
how do I deal with this? How do I seek redemption? Is it
even fair to seek redemption? And the way that that's played out, and
particularly I think because for so much of the show, the mom figure and
the one who I think has almost as big a heart as Iro is Katara,
and the fact that it's she who is the last to accept him and
the most hesitant to accept him. It plays so incredibly well. And I
just think that there's just so much about that story that I think is very
relatable, both to people who have screwed up and are trying to do better
but also to the repair, but also to all of us in terms of
seeing the people who have heard us of that you can both recognize that a
person's doing growth but not because I don't think there's ever a moment where the
avatar Creu is wrong not to open him with open arms, you know,
and that you can recognize a person's done better, but also recognize your own
pain about the situation is such that you don't want them back in your life,
or that it's gonna take more to have the back in your life.
M Well, that's heavy. I mean, it's very good and it's a
lot to think about. Like, so here's here's the thing with Zuko.
When we talk about redemption arcs or redemption stories. You know, we are
Star Wars fans. We've talked about this a lot. We kind of dislike
the Darth Vader and the Kylo Ren redemptions because they redeemed in death right,
Like it's they they don't have that moment with the other characters where they have
to apologize and try to regain trust. And then in Rebels we have the
callous arc where we do get that, and we like that a lot.
Here it is it's it's so brutal because Zuko starts as a villain and so
like for the main cast, like he's a villain, like you have to
redeem from that. But he has the secondary arc in season two where he
and Iro travel to Bossing Say and he has this glimpse of a peaceful life.
He has that beautiful episode Zuko Alone, where he learns what the Fire
Nation people think, or the Earth Nation people think of the Fire Nation.
And even though he saves this kid, this kid, you know, has
this built up racism and says like, I don't want your gift, like
you're from the Fire Nation. I hate you, even though you just saved
my family, right, Like that's very powerful, and it's him kind of
like learning about the world, learning about himself. And then at the end
of that he falls again, like he fails Iro, he betrays Iro and
the Avatar. And that's what makes it so devastating and so redemptive to me,
is that he starts as a villain already and has a like upward curving
path of redemption and then falls and we have to go through that with him,
and then spend that that part of the first half of seasons three where
IRA's not talking to him, giving him the cold shoulder, and we're devastated
by that and just to have that whole like roller coaster. Is what makes
it so good to me is like we we have to have two redemptions essentially.
Yeah to me, no, go ahead. And to finish up like
to have the the Avatar gang, I think there's like three episodes where he
has to go on like little adventures with each of them with their gang Sokka
and Katara, And that tof is like I didn't get my Yeah, it
a life changing field. They dedicate three episodes to him doing penance essentially with
the three main characters. I think four even because those soccer ones like a
two parter. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I think.
And the fact that it's it's not four episod with the whole gang because he's
hurt each of them in different ways. Yeah, and so that journey has
to be individualized for each of them. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I
think it feels like more earned than any other redemption arc I really can think
of. Like I mean, I'll say I love the Darth Vader redemption arc
because even an empire, I like kind of thought he was like the main
character, right, but like although I had seen Jedi first, maybe I'm
not sure I was little, but like I do feel the same thing where
it's like, I don't know, maybe Darth Vader had to die so Zuko
could live, but like it's you know, I love getting to see a
redemption arc where the character not only lives on but then tries to either a
tone or just just make up for or cause not Like he's not trying to
undo the harm that he did, right, He's not going around to help
rebuild the villages that he incinerated, right, That's not what he's doing.
He's trying to Yeah, yeah, maybe he does that later, Yeah,
but he's he's trying to He's gone from doing harm and making the world less
like the way that you know, the protagonists and the viewers mostly would want
to see it and try to make the world war that way. Now,
so you know, it's kind of like, you know, kind of balancing
the scales or whatever. But it's like, it doesn't feel like that's why
he's doing it. To me, it doesn't feel like he's seeking redemption.
It feels to me like he understands who he wants to be and now he
just wants to do that right, And he does have to make things up
and kind of square things with the other characters in order to really be accepted
into their you know, into Team Avatar. But like that's not why he
does He doesn't do it because like it feels like, oh, there's this
score sheet. It's like he wants to stop his father, right, he
wants to change the Fire Nation, and you know, he grew up learning
you know, you're supposed to go fight for your country against the other countries,
right against the other nations. But like now he's like, that's not
how I want the world to be. Like, we don't the Fire Nation
doesn't need to spread its goodness across the world. The Fire Nation can just
be the Fire Nation. The Earth Nation can be the Earth Nation, and
I guess and can just be the Air Nation for now. But like you
know, and the Water Nation, but well it's there's no Water Nation,
right, there's two water tribes. But the point being just that like it
it feels the way he stumbles feels it doesn't to me. It doesn't feel
contrived, right, it feels like super believable. If they tried to do
that three or four times through like a whole bunch of seasons, Like if
this series went seven seasons and they said Okay, Zuko can only like,
you know, turn in like season seven, I think that might have been
excruciating, you know. And there's another series that I like a lot that
has a redemption arc that is also very highly praised that I like, but
did feel like there were a few too many of that moment in, you
know, and I think the one I think we're talking about capture from Shira,
and I do praise it all the time, I do think that it
has won too many of the right Yeah, so like it could be both
right, it could be great, but also just you know, they had
a certain number of seasons and here it's like maybe they were going to do
four seasons and then do some stuff after the end of this, but like
three seasons felt so right for this show. It felt like a disciplines,
like this is the story we have to tell. We're going to tell that
story. And they did. And it wasn't such a long story that like
you had to just keep dragging off out like Zuko's arc. You know,
It's like instead you got to kind of hit to me what felt like just
the right number of points, right, And you know, there's something about
a trilogy that often works well you know, the end of the second one
is the low point, not just for the heroes, because like, Ang
just got blasted by a lightning bolt in the back when he was in the
Avatar state and now he's his chokras are all jammed or whatever, but like
it's a low point for Zuko because he's achieved what he wanted to achieve,
but that's not what he really wants or should be doing, right, Right,
So I think that's so true and one of the things I think is
so essential about what he's doing at the end there, because right, it's
not just that he wants them to be forgiven for his own well being,
it's I want to help. Yeah, And until this point he's had a
real like I need to be the fighter, I need to be the one,
and him having this moment of the best way I can help is not
to be the one to take these people on. It's to help train Ang
so that he can be the one. That also just feels like such an
important shift for him of metal level. It's sort of like from most of
the show, these two have each had their point of view story and it's
him being like, you know what, I'm not the main character Yeah,
I'm okay, I'm gonna step back and be this secondary, secondary but incredibly
important onle and like, who's his role model that he's chosen to take on
as his sort of figure And what did Iro do? Iro decided I'm going
to spend this part of my life trying to help someone else become who they
can be, you know, so like Zuko is literally passing on that same
lesson that's saying, like, okay, Iro gave me everything he could so
I could be the best me that I could be. Now I'm going to
try and give aang what I have to give so that he can be a
fully realized avatar and you know, kill my dad. Yeah, there's one
other thing I want to add just on that, which is kind of go
back to what's happening with Iro in that scene moment that we can move on
to promise, but it goes back to Riki something you said about how Ira
is both wanting to help Zuko find redemption but also wanting to redeem himself in
some ways for his role and all the terrible things that the Fire Nation did,
and to help change the Fire Nation for me. I think that's the
other part of that's because the other thing that happens there that once he does
begin training, what he's doing is preparing himself to go be part of the
White Lotus Society, which we learned he is really the head of which is
going to do its own thing to help fight the Fire Nation and liberate the
Earth Kingdom. Specifically, yeah, to deliberate the city that he was trying
to conquer that his nieces, that his niece wound up the actually conquering with
his nephew's help. And I think so to me, again, I agree
with that it's not turning as back necessarily on Zuko, but I think it
is a moment of his saying that until now I have felt the best thing
I can do to help the Fire Nation is to help Zuko be the person
the Fire Nation needs. Now I hope Zuku can become that, but I'm
going to go off on my own quest to focus on making the Fire Nation
or what it should and fixing the harm of the Fire Nation rather than focusing
on Zuco. Well, we need to keep moving on to some of the
other characters and plot lines. And I'm also gonna say this because we're going
to go a while, so this is going to be the end of part
one to our listeners, We're gonna have a second episode. We're gonna record
some bonus content at the end of that second episode, which might get broken
up over the two or it might just be at the end of the second
one. We have a lot more to say, so I can't really say
we have spoken. I will say we are in the midst of speaking.
Thank you so much.