WEBVTT 1 00:00:08.759 --> 00:00:13.800 Hello, and welcome to this episode of Superhero Ethics. When a beloved animated 2 00:00:13.839 --> 00:00:18.960 series is turned into a live action show, a lot of things can go 3 00:00:19.039 --> 00:00:22.280 wrong, some things can go really right, and in some cases there have 4 00:00:22.320 --> 00:00:26.000 been examples of this that are utterly beloved. In some there are ones that 5 00:00:26.079 --> 00:00:30.000 I love it but nobody else does, like Cowboy Bebop, but certainly a 6 00:00:30.079 --> 00:00:33.719 thing that has a lot of trepidation attached to it. No more so, 7 00:00:33.799 --> 00:00:36.759 I think than with the show that will be launching in just a few days 8 00:00:36.799 --> 00:00:42.119 after this podcast comes out, the live action Avatar The Last Airbender. I 9 00:00:42.119 --> 00:00:45.520 will be doing episode by episode coverage of it, probably two episodes at a 10 00:00:45.560 --> 00:00:49.039 time, on one episode, possibly with the help of some of the guests 11 00:00:49.039 --> 00:00:52.600 that I have on today. But today we're going to talk about the animated 12 00:00:52.679 --> 00:00:55.920 series. And we're doing this for a couple of reasons. One is because 13 00:00:56.759 --> 00:00:59.079 many of you may not have seen the animated series. I want to have 14 00:00:59.119 --> 00:01:02.799 some idea of what it is going into this show. Personally, as good 15 00:01:02.799 --> 00:01:04.280 as I think this podcast will be, I think you'd have a lot better 16 00:01:04.319 --> 00:01:08.599 time hitting stop and then watching the show itself instead. But the show is 17 00:01:08.640 --> 00:01:12.159 going to be about forty hours, and this podcast is going to be closer 18 00:01:12.200 --> 00:01:17.159 we hope to sixty to ninety minutes. Fingers majorly crossed because Paul is one 19 00:01:17.159 --> 00:01:19.879 of the guests, but also for those who have seen it, this is 20 00:01:19.920 --> 00:01:23.879 meant to be kind of a you know, a refresher we haven't seen it 21 00:01:23.920 --> 00:01:26.400 in a while, but even more so, we're gonna be discussing not a 22 00:01:26.640 --> 00:01:30.120 like, oh, what do we expect from the show based on the trailers 23 00:01:30.120 --> 00:01:33.439 and the news we have all been trying it for the most part, avoid 24 00:01:33.480 --> 00:01:37.079 all of that, but instead just talking about one of the things that we 25 00:01:37.159 --> 00:01:40.719 love about this show, the animated version, that we think are kind of 26 00:01:41.359 --> 00:01:45.879 essential to the show, and that'll really like not work unless this is in 27 00:01:45.920 --> 00:01:52.120 some way explored in this live action. So it's kind of a primer for 28 00:01:52.159 --> 00:01:55.319 the live action, but without being all about the trailers and the spoilers, 29 00:01:55.599 --> 00:01:59.000 just being about what it is we feel about the original show, mostly what 30 00:01:59.040 --> 00:02:01.280 we love, maybe not highly, and how that can translate to live action. 31 00:02:02.000 --> 00:02:05.519 So I'm going to introduce teaching my guests and give the chance to I 32 00:02:05.799 --> 00:02:09.280 tell you their name and who they are, but also how did they first 33 00:02:09.360 --> 00:02:12.400 watch the show? How did they come to it and kind of what was 34 00:02:12.400 --> 00:02:15.520 their first impression of it. And Paul, since I already mentioned you and 35 00:02:15.560 --> 00:02:17.800 your long windedness and how you encourage my long windedness, that's just as much 36 00:02:17.840 --> 00:02:22.680 my fault as yours, as proven by this long winded intro that I'm now 37 00:02:22.719 --> 00:02:27.120 making even more long winded by a tangent about the long windedness. And I'm 38 00:02:27.159 --> 00:02:30.039 really tempted to go into another tangent about the tangent, but I'm just gonna 39 00:02:30.039 --> 00:02:32.840 say, Paul, take it away. Sure, I'm Paul for Happyaks and 40 00:02:32.960 --> 00:02:40.560 Madman. I watched this show actually for the first time in twenty ten while 41 00:02:42.439 --> 00:02:46.319 writing, or more specifically, while not writing my first book, Way of 42 00:02:46.319 --> 00:02:51.080 the Poker Warrior, which is like available nowhere, but actually I guess you 43 00:02:51.080 --> 00:02:53.080 can find it on Lean Pup. I think it's on Amazon, but I 44 00:02:53.120 --> 00:02:58.240 don't get any royalties from that because the publisher died and I don't know. 45 00:02:58.280 --> 00:03:02.080 It's very complicated the point the copy that'll sell for the best offer of nice 46 00:03:02.360 --> 00:03:07.800 I mean, there's I have the PDF. But so I was like deep 47 00:03:07.840 --> 00:03:12.599 in a process of like trying to do something for the first time, trying 48 00:03:12.639 --> 00:03:15.439 to learn it well, you know, kind of trying to like combine martial 49 00:03:15.520 --> 00:03:20.960 arts and poker, which fits really well but also kind of doesn't or doesn't 50 00:03:21.000 --> 00:03:24.840 in like an obvious way necessarily. And and my wife was like, hey, 51 00:03:24.879 --> 00:03:27.199 do you want to watch this? I was like, yeah, sure, 52 00:03:27.639 --> 00:03:31.960 girlfriend at the time, but we were like and I just the first 53 00:03:31.960 --> 00:03:36.400 few episodes I enjoyed, and just over time I just liked it more and 54 00:03:36.439 --> 00:03:39.520 more. You know, I found that I identified a lot with the main 55 00:03:39.639 --> 00:03:46.639 character, aang and for various reasons, but you know, among them like 56 00:03:46.639 --> 00:03:49.879 the obvious sort of ones, so that like he's a vegetarian. There's not 57 00:03:49.919 --> 00:03:55.680 a lot of vegetarian protagonists in fiction, you know, especially in either animated 58 00:03:57.319 --> 00:04:00.319 or like live action like on screen fiction, right, And so I liked 59 00:04:00.360 --> 00:04:06.319 that, but also just kind of his personality of, you know, dealing 60 00:04:06.360 --> 00:04:11.240 with a lot of heavy stuff. And I'd say the show more broadly also 61 00:04:12.120 --> 00:04:14.919 deals with a lot of really heavy stuff, you know, like war and 62 00:04:15.319 --> 00:04:19.600 genocide and death, and but I feel like it does it all with a 63 00:04:19.720 --> 00:04:26.879 very light touch, and I feel like it manages to find humor not necessarily 64 00:04:26.920 --> 00:04:30.000 from the horrible things, but like in spite of the horrible things, and 65 00:04:30.800 --> 00:04:35.399 there are I could think of at least one specific movie that I won't name 66 00:04:35.439 --> 00:04:38.920 because I don't want to get into it, but that like I felt like 67 00:04:39.639 --> 00:04:44.519 kind of tried to do that and it felt like just a glaring mismatch and 68 00:04:44.560 --> 00:04:49.639 a clash that felt like awful to me. And somehow I feel like the 69 00:04:49.680 --> 00:04:54.240 show gets away with it and actually manages to pull it off in a way 70 00:04:54.240 --> 00:04:57.800 that resonates with me, you know. And I think some other people probably 71 00:04:57.800 --> 00:05:00.240 found this movie or like other movies like to be able to do that as 72 00:05:00.279 --> 00:05:02.600 well, but to me, it feels like a very rare thing to be 73 00:05:02.639 --> 00:05:05.879 able to succeed in. And so, you know, the not all of 74 00:05:05.920 --> 00:05:11.839 the humor in the show is like necessarily oriented towards my sense of humor, 75 00:05:11.879 --> 00:05:18.360 but I feel like there is a pervasive there is humor coming from the characters 76 00:05:18.399 --> 00:05:24.160 more than just from the situations a lot of the times, and you know, 77 00:05:24.199 --> 00:05:27.560 and sometimes maybe some of that's even how they're dealing with the difficulties that 78 00:05:27.600 --> 00:05:30.839 they face, you know. And then as the show goes on, like 79 00:05:30.959 --> 00:05:33.680 it has you know, spoilers, but like one of the best redemption arcs 80 00:05:33.720 --> 00:05:40.360 I've ever seen, maybe the best even you know, it has themes of 81 00:05:40.399 --> 00:05:46.560 like found family, and it has animal non human animal characters who are characters, 82 00:05:47.040 --> 00:05:50.120 and one of whom actually gets like a whole episode, you know, 83 00:05:50.519 --> 00:05:57.399 And you know that episode is mostly devoted to his suffering, which you know, 84 00:05:57.759 --> 00:06:00.279 is I think says a lot of about the world we live in and 85 00:06:00.360 --> 00:06:05.680 the way you know, most humans look at non humans. But but like, 86 00:06:06.279 --> 00:06:11.800 that episode is one of my favorite episodes of any on screen fiction. 87 00:06:12.000 --> 00:06:15.439 It's like up there with the epilogue of Justice League Unlimited, you know, 88 00:06:15.680 --> 00:06:18.560 And yeah, that's that's most of it. You know. I'd say it's 89 00:06:18.560 --> 00:06:23.000 one of my three favorite series of all time. And I've rewatched it many 90 00:06:23.040 --> 00:06:29.040 many times, and I deliberately actually didn't rewatch it this time because I kind 91 00:06:29.079 --> 00:06:32.920 of want to give a chance to the live action series to kind of live 92 00:06:32.959 --> 00:06:36.759 on its own separately in my mind. And we can we can circle back 93 00:06:36.759 --> 00:06:41.199 to Cowboy Bebop and how that kind of fits in with that. Actually, 94 00:06:41.839 --> 00:06:46.800 sure, And Riki Hashi, what about yourself? Hi, Riki hi Ashi 95 00:06:46.839 --> 00:06:51.240 here, I did not watch this show originally when it came out, only 96 00:06:51.279 --> 00:06:55.920 watched it for the first time maybe a couple of years ago, and didn't 97 00:06:55.959 --> 00:06:59.959 know anything about it. I was familiar that they had made a live action 98 00:07:00.439 --> 00:07:03.439 movie which was much panned, and that that was only that was like my 99 00:07:03.560 --> 00:07:08.240 cultural understanding of it was that it was a cartoon and then a movie, 100 00:07:08.319 --> 00:07:12.879 and I didn't know anything about it. Fell in love with it almost immediately, 101 00:07:13.040 --> 00:07:16.160 like maybe like three or four episodes in it really grabbed me. And 102 00:07:16.199 --> 00:07:21.759 it's lovely that it's only three seasons. Yeah. Yeah, they really tell 103 00:07:23.240 --> 00:07:28.000 a full arc in a concise way, which is one of the things I 104 00:07:28.079 --> 00:07:32.040 like it. It doesn't linger too long and like have you know what people 105 00:07:32.079 --> 00:07:38.600 call filler episodes? And I too, like Paul, I identify strongly with 106 00:07:38.680 --> 00:07:45.360 the main character Uncle Iro. No, I'm kidding. Obviously, the Aang 107 00:07:45.480 --> 00:07:48.000 is the main you know, the main protagonist. But I think one of 108 00:07:48.000 --> 00:07:53.920 the beautiful things about this show is that so many of the secondary characters, 109 00:07:53.959 --> 00:07:58.639 like probably like six or seven deep, are really fleshed out and given their 110 00:07:58.680 --> 00:08:03.720 own arcs and given a chance to get to know them, and different people 111 00:08:03.800 --> 00:08:09.680 can can really identify with different characters in a meaningful way and gain some appreciation 112 00:08:09.839 --> 00:08:16.079 that way. So I love the show. Yeah, I very much agree 113 00:08:16.120 --> 00:08:18.360 with that, and I think that's where I'll start my conversation as well, 114 00:08:18.480 --> 00:08:22.360 is saying I love the show for so many reasons. First and foremost, 115 00:08:22.399 --> 00:08:26.959 though, is the redemption arc of the character I most relate to, and 116 00:08:26.000 --> 00:08:30.600 the one who I think is If you go way back to the archives and 117 00:08:30.639 --> 00:08:33.360 listen to Paul and I talk about season one of Daredevil, we often talk 118 00:08:33.399 --> 00:08:39.039 about how the show comes like a hair breadth away from making Kingpin the protagonist 119 00:08:39.120 --> 00:08:45.320 of the show, and in many ways, I think Zuko is really the 120 00:08:45.440 --> 00:08:50.720 second main character behind Aang and it's his redemption story and it's one that I 121 00:08:50.799 --> 00:08:54.519 feel I think it says a lot about, you know, our relative positions 122 00:08:54.519 --> 00:08:56.799 that for me, that's the one I very much identify with. And I'll 123 00:08:56.799 --> 00:09:01.799 talk pretty honestly about that because i've and at the time that I watched it, 124 00:09:01.919 --> 00:09:07.159 that was really important, because I will say that when I first heard 125 00:09:07.159 --> 00:09:11.120 about this show, I was still in a place where I kind of looked 126 00:09:11.159 --> 00:09:16.000 down my nose at animation. I really liked Disney animation, and I thought 127 00:09:16.039 --> 00:09:18.120 there was a lot of fun kid stuff, like I loved the music from 128 00:09:18.519 --> 00:09:24.879 Little Mermaid and Aladdin and stuff like that, and I thought cartoons were fun. 129 00:09:24.320 --> 00:09:28.879 But I didn't look to them for serious discussion of the kind of issues 130 00:09:28.879 --> 00:09:33.919 that I liked. And there were a couple of shows that were recommended to 131 00:09:33.960 --> 00:09:37.799 me that I think really changed my perspective on that, and Paul was the 132 00:09:37.840 --> 00:09:39.080 main driver, I think, for all three of getting me to watch them, 133 00:09:39.080 --> 00:09:43.440 and they were Avatar, The Last Airbender, Star Wars, The Clone 134 00:09:43.440 --> 00:09:48.360 Wars, and Batman the animated series. And I will say the first time 135 00:09:48.879 --> 00:09:52.039 with this show, like Paul, I really liked what you said about like 136 00:09:52.080 --> 00:09:56.120 finding that balance of humor, because I'll admit I didn't and I and to 137 00:09:56.120 --> 00:10:00.320 this day, I still don't love the first season of the show because cuz 138 00:10:00.679 --> 00:10:03.720 my impression at least is that it does the first season is a little bit 139 00:10:03.759 --> 00:10:09.639 more on the childish, he slapsticky side of the humor, which is one 140 00:10:09.679 --> 00:10:15.240 that I just don't react well to. And so and it does give me 141 00:10:15.279 --> 00:10:18.399 some trepidations about where we're going in season one, although I do think that 142 00:10:18.440 --> 00:10:22.080 season one winds up having some incredible plot lines. But I also think that 143 00:10:22.759 --> 00:10:26.080 I did rewatch it the last couple of days, and one of the things 144 00:10:26.080 --> 00:10:31.759 that I really got out of it was that, to me, a big 145 00:10:31.799 --> 00:10:35.919 part of what the show is about is about the like I forget where I 146 00:10:35.919 --> 00:10:37.960 heard this first, but there's kind of an old child. There's an old 147 00:10:39.000 --> 00:10:43.440 cliche about like all of the terrible things that are life, and you have 148 00:10:43.480 --> 00:10:46.279 to learn to be cynical, and you have to learn to be to not 149 00:10:46.360 --> 00:10:50.879 trust people that you know. You can say children are idiots because they haven't 150 00:10:50.960 --> 00:10:54.000 learned that, or you can say children are the one who should lead us 151 00:10:54.039 --> 00:10:58.960 because they haven't learned those things, and that innocence is such an important thing, 152 00:11:00.080 --> 00:11:01.600 and for me, that's a huge part of I think what makes this 153 00:11:01.679 --> 00:11:05.279 story work so well, and what makes Aang work so well is, at 154 00:11:05.360 --> 00:11:09.399 least as I understand it, Aang is present. Most of the kids are 155 00:11:09.440 --> 00:11:13.360 like early pubescent. I think they're supposed to be like thirteen to fifteen or 156 00:11:13.399 --> 00:11:20.679 sixteen, with Aang being a little Aang being clearly youngest and at least and 157 00:11:20.720 --> 00:11:26.519 maybe even yeah, twelve and maybe even chronologically but closer. But you know, 158 00:11:26.799 --> 00:11:31.159 it seems like Zuko has gone through puberty. All of the people in 159 00:11:31.279 --> 00:11:35.120 Zuko's crowd have gone through puberty, Katara has, Sokka's in the middle of 160 00:11:35.120 --> 00:11:39.279 it. Aang hasn't yet and for me, that's a big part of kind 161 00:11:39.279 --> 00:11:43.159 of what is able to set him apart and kind of make the humor really 162 00:11:43.200 --> 00:11:45.159 work, which I have a lot of thoughts about. But let me kind 163 00:11:45.159 --> 00:11:46.440 of stop there and let anyone comment or or either what I said or what 164 00:11:46.480 --> 00:11:50.200 anyone else said. Well, I said twelve, but he's actually one hundred 165 00:11:50.240 --> 00:11:56.480 and twelve, So right, he has been frozen in carbonite, forgive me, 166 00:11:56.559 --> 00:11:58.080 frozen in the South Pole, forgiv me, frozen at the bottom of 167 00:11:58.080 --> 00:12:03.000 the map for one hundred a year that he has aged twelve years. Yeah, 168 00:12:03.000 --> 00:12:09.399 and to me, there's this sort of like this combination of wisdom and 169 00:12:11.360 --> 00:12:15.080 you know, you could call it innocence, but I'm not sure that's exactly 170 00:12:15.120 --> 00:12:18.399 the word I would use. But like, you know, over the course 171 00:12:18.440 --> 00:12:22.080 of the series, like he sees a lot of bad things and is confronted 172 00:12:22.080 --> 00:12:26.440 with a lot of situations where it's very difficult to not make, you know, 173 00:12:26.679 --> 00:12:28.000 the hard choice or whatever. And I mean, you know, because 174 00:12:28.000 --> 00:12:33.039 it's fiction, sometimes there might be like a third way, right, and 175 00:12:33.639 --> 00:12:35.960 but like I think manages to come out of it still being the same person, 176 00:12:37.600 --> 00:12:43.799 which I think is often a lot of you know, a lot of 177 00:12:43.799 --> 00:12:48.279 people tend to there's an idea that like a story is supposed to be about 178 00:12:48.279 --> 00:12:52.480 a character changing, right, And I think a story can be about a 179 00:12:52.519 --> 00:12:56.480 character not changing. Of course, if you wanted to say it has to 180 00:12:56.519 --> 00:12:58.480 be about a character changing, then Zuko would be the main character, you 181 00:12:58.480 --> 00:13:03.639 know. But and I will say as an aside that I do identify much 182 00:13:03.639 --> 00:13:09.879 more now with Uncle Iro, maybe partially because I resemble him more in a 183 00:13:09.000 --> 00:13:16.600 shape than at the time I didn't. But but no, I mean Uncle 184 00:13:16.600 --> 00:13:20.799 Iro is also one of my favorite characters of all time. And even if 185 00:13:20.960 --> 00:13:24.759 Aang's my favorite protagonist, I can't say that I necessarily like him more as 186 00:13:24.759 --> 00:13:28.080 a character than Iro. Like it's it's just and there's there's other characters in 187 00:13:28.120 --> 00:13:35.000 the show though also that I think are such great characters that kind of are 188 00:13:35.080 --> 00:13:37.840 are are unique, don't feel like just like art types, you know. 189 00:13:39.279 --> 00:13:45.960 And in terms of you know, the the much maligned adaptation, one of 190 00:13:46.000 --> 00:13:48.639 the things that I think M Night Shamalan, who I believe wrote and directed 191 00:13:48.679 --> 00:13:54.559 it, said and was a producer like that he didn't want to have that 192 00:13:54.720 --> 00:13:58.639 kind of humor in in the movie because he just didn't like that, like 193 00:13:58.679 --> 00:14:01.000 he watched it with his kid and thought there's a lot of great stuff in 194 00:14:01.039 --> 00:14:03.200 it, but just didn't want to And I feel like you can't. You 195 00:14:03.240 --> 00:14:07.279 cannot play that up as much as maybe the first season did. You know, 196 00:14:07.879 --> 00:14:11.399 you can like try and not make it as much of it, But 197 00:14:11.440 --> 00:14:20.360 I feel like if you really try to excise that from the story, I 198 00:14:20.440 --> 00:14:24.440 just think you're not gonna get something that carries the same I don't know, 199 00:14:24.519 --> 00:14:28.919 sort of like spirit as the show. So I don't know. I think 200 00:14:30.000 --> 00:14:35.360 you're you're left necessarily with something fundamentally different that could be good on its own, 201 00:14:35.600 --> 00:14:39.600 but I think you I think you have to maintain some of the humor, 202 00:14:39.639 --> 00:14:43.159 some of the sense of humor of the characters at least, otherwise they're 203 00:14:43.200 --> 00:14:46.399 just not the same people at all. In my view. No, I 204 00:14:46.039 --> 00:14:50.480 wont one hundred percent agree. And I would say maybe childlike wonder is the 205 00:14:50.480 --> 00:14:54.879 better word for him than innocence, and that he has this like they're in 206 00:14:54.919 --> 00:14:58.159 the middle of the war and he's so like, we have to go find 207 00:14:58.159 --> 00:15:00.960 the weapon, we have to go find the the thing that will allow us 208 00:15:01.039 --> 00:15:03.720 to win. But oh my god, here's this cool animal who I can 209 00:15:03.799 --> 00:15:07.960 like run on and write right. And I love the point you made about 210 00:15:07.960 --> 00:15:13.039 this being the story where the protagonist doesn't change, because I think it was 211 00:15:13.080 --> 00:15:16.799 that the protagonist is unaffected by the events of the story. Then that's often 212 00:15:16.879 --> 00:15:20.840 not great writing. To me, it's more that this is an experience that 213 00:15:20.919 --> 00:15:26.360 would be the darkening moment for so many characters, like this is the they 214 00:15:26.399 --> 00:15:30.840 get PTSD from this, or they become more cynical or become And to me, 215 00:15:30.960 --> 00:15:35.240 it's really about him, not that he doesn't change because he's not affected, 216 00:15:35.759 --> 00:15:39.840 is that he is struggling so hard not to change and not to be 217 00:15:39.080 --> 00:15:43.759 changed by all the things that happened to him. Yeah, I think the 218 00:15:43.799 --> 00:15:50.399 strongest part of Aang's character is that he changes the world. Obviously as the 219 00:15:50.519 --> 00:15:54.039 hero, like he saves the world. But what I mean specifically here is 220 00:15:56.759 --> 00:16:00.559 we're talking like full spoilers, right, Like we're just talking about what happens 221 00:16:00.639 --> 00:16:04.840 in the series. At the end in the finale, everyone's like, you 222 00:16:06.039 --> 00:16:10.879 have to kill fire Lord OZI, right, that's your destiny is the avatar. 223 00:16:10.960 --> 00:16:15.039 You have to kill him, and he chooses not to kill him, 224 00:16:15.600 --> 00:16:19.279 and that is the moment of his heroism in my opinion, that he makes 225 00:16:19.320 --> 00:16:25.879 this moral choice, and I you know, I'm not as satisfied with how 226 00:16:25.919 --> 00:16:29.080 he manages that with the magic of the now, I know, how to 227 00:16:29.120 --> 00:16:34.480 take away someone's bending like that seemed a little bit sudden, But I really 228 00:16:34.559 --> 00:16:40.639 like that he makes that choice and goes against the conventional thinking. Like it 229 00:16:40.720 --> 00:16:44.559 felt like he comes out of the ice and to me, like that echoes 230 00:16:44.639 --> 00:16:48.679 Captain America. And it's similar to in Civil War when he comes to that 231 00:16:48.840 --> 00:16:52.399 point of like when the world tells you to move, like, you say 232 00:16:52.480 --> 00:16:55.279 no, right, like everyone's telling ann you have to kill him. He 233 00:16:55.279 --> 00:17:00.159 says, no, that's not the right thing to do. Yeah, I 234 00:17:00.200 --> 00:17:03.759 think, I think that's really true. And I never even really thought of 235 00:17:03.799 --> 00:17:06.480 it this way. But I think one of the things that the show really 236 00:17:06.480 --> 00:17:08.960 does a great job of depicting, and it leads to what's probably my favorite 237 00:17:10.000 --> 00:17:14.160 single potline and which we'll talk about, is the way that a hundred years 238 00:17:14.200 --> 00:17:18.160 of war have changed the world and that you know, most of these people 239 00:17:18.200 --> 00:17:23.559 are where now multiple generations away from remembering a time of peace, and so 240 00:17:23.759 --> 00:17:29.079 just all of the hatreds of the other and all of the fears of we 241 00:17:29.200 --> 00:17:32.359 have to make sure that we have enough because we're in such scarcity and all 242 00:17:32.400 --> 00:17:36.160 that, and hasn't experienced any of that. He was frozen into the ice 243 00:17:36.200 --> 00:17:38.880 literally before the war started, and so he's not experienced any of that. 244 00:17:41.400 --> 00:17:45.799 I want to shift gears a bit because this brings up what is as I'm 245 00:17:45.799 --> 00:17:48.640 thinking about it. One of my biggest concerns that I'm moved to live action, 246 00:17:48.720 --> 00:17:52.079 and I wonder if you guys are thinking about this as well. One 247 00:17:52.119 --> 00:17:56.960 of the points that I heartbom all the time in this podcast is the idea 248 00:17:57.160 --> 00:18:03.559 that I've often bothered when a TV show or a movie presents the idea that 249 00:18:03.680 --> 00:18:10.279 a character can choose to engage in violence that is quite you know, doing 250 00:18:10.279 --> 00:18:14.839 incredible damage to bodies, but that it is non lethal, and that you 251 00:18:14.880 --> 00:18:17.480 know, because I understand it. You know a lot of times when I'm 252 00:18:17.480 --> 00:18:19.119 like, I'm watching Batman do things to people and I'm like, yeah, 253 00:18:19.200 --> 00:18:25.000 that's plot force trauma. That that person is dead, and so Batman saying 254 00:18:25.039 --> 00:18:27.400 like I will not kill doesn't make any sense. Same with Daredevil. A 255 00:18:27.400 --> 00:18:32.880 lot of these things in this show. There are a certain number of instances 256 00:18:32.880 --> 00:18:36.200 where Ang does things where I'm like, yeah, that person's not alive. 257 00:18:36.240 --> 00:18:42.599 Anymore, except that the animation style is so it's not trying to be realistic. 258 00:18:42.640 --> 00:18:45.400 In the fight scenes, like the martial arts of it feels very realistic, 259 00:18:45.440 --> 00:18:51.640 but like people are constantly being thrown hundreds of feet and slammed into walls 260 00:18:51.640 --> 00:18:56.359 and slammed into ice in ways that would be lethal to a human body in 261 00:18:56.400 --> 00:19:00.000 a way that I think works. And again because of the animation stuff, 262 00:19:00.319 --> 00:19:04.200 which is a kind of like intentionally over the top, it feels to me 263 00:19:04.279 --> 00:19:08.039 like that's going to be very hard to translate to live action in a way 264 00:19:08.079 --> 00:19:14.440 that I think is believable that this much combat is happening, but that aang 265 00:19:14.519 --> 00:19:18.799 is intentionally choosing to never end a person's life. What's your all thought on 266 00:19:18.839 --> 00:19:23.039 that it can work in live action? May Paul, you're the martial artist, 267 00:19:23.279 --> 00:19:27.880 right, maybe I think I think it's a very good point. I 268 00:19:27.920 --> 00:19:34.279 think I think it's less about the animation style because the people move in very 269 00:19:34.319 --> 00:19:38.759 realistic ways, like actually, it's some of the best martial arts animation I've 270 00:19:38.839 --> 00:19:44.160 seen, you know, and they actually were informed by like real martial arts, 271 00:19:44.640 --> 00:19:48.839 and like each you know, style of bending, each nation has its 272 00:19:48.880 --> 00:19:55.599 own specific like real world style of martial arts that they drew from. So 273 00:19:56.319 --> 00:20:00.160 it's not so much to me about like how people move, it's about when 274 00:20:00.680 --> 00:20:03.759 I mean when I watch animation. I think when people watch animation, the 275 00:20:03.839 --> 00:20:11.400 brain is doing something different than when it's watching human bodies, like actual live 276 00:20:11.440 --> 00:20:17.440 action humans move through space, right, Like we are seeing representations that we 277 00:20:17.519 --> 00:20:22.240 recognize as representations of like the idea of a person. We're not seeing a 278 00:20:22.279 --> 00:20:30.759 physical person. So I think, yeah, there's like it's easier to accomplish 279 00:20:30.759 --> 00:20:34.759 that in animation, where the idea of something that is potentially lethal, like 280 00:20:36.400 --> 00:20:37.880 in a lot of those things, I would say, no, that person's 281 00:20:37.920 --> 00:20:41.480 not definitely dead, but like if you do that one hundred times, you 282 00:20:41.519 --> 00:20:47.079 know sometimes it's going to result in death probably, right, But in animation, 283 00:20:47.359 --> 00:20:52.519 because like we're already looking at these kind of like avatars of people instead 284 00:20:52.519 --> 00:20:57.480 of like physical human bodies, I think there's a paradigm shift that's very easy 285 00:20:57.640 --> 00:21:06.359 to make work in the whereas with live action that doesn't always that's harder to 286 00:21:06.359 --> 00:21:12.599 accomplish. However, having recently watched you know, some some like Hong Kong 287 00:21:12.680 --> 00:21:17.440 movies like Enter the Fat Dragon or like like there's a lot of like kind 288 00:21:17.480 --> 00:21:22.119 of slapstick kung fu movies, and they managed to accomplish much the same thing, 289 00:21:22.319 --> 00:21:29.200 where there is extreme violence that is just completely non lethal, and I 290 00:21:29.720 --> 00:21:33.039 kind of think having that lightness, having that humor, be an element of 291 00:21:33.160 --> 00:21:38.599 like that pervades the entire production. I for me, allows me to more 292 00:21:38.640 --> 00:21:44.599 readily accept that something is simply not lethal in the way that it would be 293 00:21:45.240 --> 00:21:52.079 in our world. And so I think a show like Daredevil or maybe some 294 00:21:52.119 --> 00:21:56.880 sort of like the Dark Night version of Batman maybe are a little harder to 295 00:21:57.000 --> 00:22:04.039 accept that these kind of this extreme you know, hand to hand violence can 296 00:22:04.079 --> 00:22:10.240 be non lethal is a little harder to accept because it's this like dart gritty, 297 00:22:10.519 --> 00:22:15.400 more real world feeling setting, right Whereas when it's just clear that the 298 00:22:15.400 --> 00:22:21.759 paradigm that you know, the the the show or movie or whatever is operating 299 00:22:21.799 --> 00:22:23.920 in has you know, it's like, yeah, people survive that you see 300 00:22:23.920 --> 00:22:27.240 someone survive at one time, and then it's like, Okay, that's that's 301 00:22:27.279 --> 00:22:33.440 what we're working with. The things that bother me are when that's clearly the 302 00:22:33.559 --> 00:22:36.759 established paradigm, and then all of a sudden the writers want to kill off 303 00:22:36.799 --> 00:22:41.240 a character and they're like, Okay, now physics and biology work differently because 304 00:22:41.559 --> 00:22:45.680 you know, we want this to happen, you know, and then that 305 00:22:45.839 --> 00:22:48.599 kind of that sort of shakes me out of the story because it's like, 306 00:22:48.680 --> 00:22:52.720 well, I thought these were the rules, and now you're telling me these 307 00:22:52.720 --> 00:22:56.680 are the rules. And so I would say they need to establish early on 308 00:22:56.480 --> 00:23:00.480 this kind of you know, you could call it comic book book violence, 309 00:23:00.519 --> 00:23:03.599 you could call it, you know, whatever you want, you know, 310 00:23:03.680 --> 00:23:08.119 animated violence or whatever, but sort of establish the idea that like, yeah, 311 00:23:08.160 --> 00:23:11.440 you can you can hit someone with a fireball and they're not just going 312 00:23:11.519 --> 00:23:17.240 to get burns to a crisp, They're gonna get like knocked over, you 313 00:23:17.279 --> 00:23:18.759 know. And it's like, if that's how it plays, that's how it 314 00:23:18.799 --> 00:23:23.920 plays. I do absolutely agree, though, or I would say that it 315 00:23:25.000 --> 00:23:29.920 must be harder to achieve that in live action than in animation. Yeah, 316 00:23:30.119 --> 00:23:37.920 I would axpect. Yeah, Like the thing with the Bending is that, 317 00:23:37.279 --> 00:23:44.039 like Earth Bending, they literally throw boulders at each other, right like that 318 00:23:44.200 --> 00:23:49.160 presumably way tons I'm gonna say. And then like Fire Bending, it's it's 319 00:23:49.400 --> 00:23:55.640 just fire that they are hurling at each other. And there there's a scene 320 00:23:56.359 --> 00:24:03.920 where Zuko accidentally burns tough, right, Aang accidentally burns Katara by barely touching 321 00:24:03.960 --> 00:24:07.720 them with some fire bending, and yet when they're fighting with the fire bending, 322 00:24:07.720 --> 00:24:11.039 they're just hurling at each other and and like they put up their guard, 323 00:24:11.160 --> 00:24:14.440 it's like it's still gonna burn your your forearms, right, Like you 324 00:24:14.480 --> 00:24:18.160 can hide your face, but your forearms are now singed. So I agree, 325 00:24:18.200 --> 00:24:22.880 like the the violence, you know, the fantastical violence, Like, 326 00:24:25.119 --> 00:24:27.720 as long as it serves the story, i think we can suspend our disbelief, 327 00:24:27.759 --> 00:24:33.680 I'm okay with that, and I prefer that. I actually don't like 328 00:24:33.680 --> 00:24:37.160 like realistic depictions of violence, like you said in Daredevil. I haven't watched 329 00:24:37.160 --> 00:24:44.079 the show, but I've seen a clip where Daredevil is literally like punching someone 330 00:24:44.119 --> 00:24:47.279 to death, and I think I asked, maybe Matthew, like is this 331 00:24:47.359 --> 00:24:48.319 what the rest of the show was Like? Is that? Yeah, yeah, 332 00:24:48.319 --> 00:24:52.319 it's pretty representative, Like that's just not for me, Like, I 333 00:24:52.400 --> 00:24:55.440 don't I don't enjoy that. Yeah, but that guy was probably fine, 334 00:24:55.440 --> 00:24:59.960 by the way, because Dared Oval doesn't kill people. Yeah, exactly exactly, 335 00:25:00.920 --> 00:25:03.759 But that's part of the story, right, Like that's his story, 336 00:25:03.839 --> 00:25:07.079 yes, And so when violence is used that way, in stories like it 337 00:25:07.119 --> 00:25:11.240 bothers me. And I'm not saying that it's wrong, it's just like not 338 00:25:11.480 --> 00:25:15.359 my taste, so like I don't enjoy that as much. Yeah, I 339 00:25:15.359 --> 00:25:18.680 think that makes a lot of sense. And I think, you know, 340 00:25:18.680 --> 00:25:21.759 Paul, when you're talking about the style of animation, I guess what I 341 00:25:21.839 --> 00:25:23.440 mean is that I feel like there's some styles of animation that are trying to 342 00:25:23.480 --> 00:25:27.599 be kind of hyper realistic, whereas this one is very much not. You 343 00:25:27.640 --> 00:25:30.680 know, so when you see, for example, like the character getting very 344 00:25:30.720 --> 00:25:34.720 angry and in a very kind of like animation style, like you see like 345 00:25:34.759 --> 00:25:40.079 all like the colors around them change their eyes bug out to five times. 346 00:25:40.319 --> 00:25:42.680 That obviously doesn't happen in real life, but it's a trope of a way 347 00:25:42.720 --> 00:25:48.160 to represent that. I think you're right. I think they keep the violence 348 00:25:48.240 --> 00:25:53.720 more on the if they keep the violence more on the fantastical side, certainly 349 00:25:53.759 --> 00:25:59.279 because we don't have actual people able to throw fireballs and ice balls and rocks 350 00:25:59.319 --> 00:26:02.559 at each other in our own world, I'm able to more you know, 351 00:26:02.920 --> 00:26:07.799 understanding of that, I would say the scenes where Ang causes tanks full of 352 00:26:07.880 --> 00:26:11.960 people to fall off mountain cliffs, there's no degree of fantasy. That's gonna 353 00:26:12.000 --> 00:26:15.079 let me think that the people in that tank have survived, and so if 354 00:26:15.079 --> 00:26:18.079 we can maybe not have that exact scene, that's to me the worst. 355 00:26:18.079 --> 00:26:22.440 But I definitely think that, Yeah, I think we'll all kind of agreement 356 00:26:22.480 --> 00:26:23.880 that there are ways to do it in live action. It's just gonna be 357 00:26:23.920 --> 00:26:29.440 something that I really hope that they're away because I at least feel that if 358 00:26:29.440 --> 00:26:32.880 I'm watching these things going like, oh yeah, and kill that person, 359 00:26:32.960 --> 00:26:37.160 and kill that person? Could Tara kill that person? Ang struggle about what 360 00:26:37.240 --> 00:26:40.599 which Ricky you brought up that I think is such a pivot over his character 361 00:26:40.640 --> 00:26:44.960 won't land as well? Right, Yeah, in the final battle, the 362 00:26:45.279 --> 00:26:48.359 like part of the rest of the team is taking down airships. It's like 363 00:26:48.400 --> 00:26:53.200 if those crash, the occupants are just dead. Yeah, very much so 364 00:26:53.400 --> 00:26:56.880 a bunch of them land in the water. Though. I think it's like 365 00:26:56.359 --> 00:27:00.359 this is a thing in animation that they often show yeah, yeah, yeah, 366 00:27:00.400 --> 00:27:03.799 you know, and they do that in the you know, the old 367 00:27:03.960 --> 00:27:07.240 X Men animated series, and they do that in the Justice like they show 368 00:27:07.279 --> 00:27:11.440 the people like jumping out of the thing crashes down. I mean, I 369 00:27:11.480 --> 00:27:15.119 think that is like a tele that could be like a television requirement you're hearing 370 00:27:15.119 --> 00:27:19.359 about, g I Joe, was that they they could not show anyone presumably 371 00:27:19.440 --> 00:27:22.759 dying, right, so like any time a plane is shotdown, they always 372 00:27:22.839 --> 00:27:27.119 have to show the pilot parachuting out. Yeah thing. Yeah, it was 373 00:27:30.440 --> 00:27:33.240 someone who grew up with that show. Yeah, it was very ridiculous, 374 00:27:33.799 --> 00:27:37.200 especially the tanks, because like people always jump out of the tank right before 375 00:27:37.240 --> 00:27:40.519 it blows up. It's like, how did you know your tank was going 376 00:27:40.599 --> 00:27:45.720 to blow up? Yeah, So let's talk about the individual characters because I 377 00:27:45.759 --> 00:27:51.440 think them and their journeys is such an important part of the show. And 378 00:27:51.519 --> 00:27:53.359 Riki, let's start with you. What is it about Iro that you think 379 00:27:53.400 --> 00:27:57.240 of as like when you think about like what you have to do to get 380 00:27:57.279 --> 00:28:02.599 Iro right? What does that mean to you? Oh? Gosh? I 381 00:28:02.599 --> 00:28:10.119 mean, first off, his voice actor is legendary Mako Iwomatsu, and tragically 382 00:28:10.119 --> 00:28:14.440 he passed away I think after season one or like at the beginning of season 383 00:28:14.440 --> 00:28:18.119 two, and so there was a handoff to another actor and it's noticeable. 384 00:28:18.240 --> 00:28:23.200 But the new guy, I can't remember his name. I think it's Greg 385 00:28:23.200 --> 00:28:29.079 Baldwin. Yeah, Greg Baldwin does a good job, like as far as 386 00:28:29.200 --> 00:28:34.400 like trying to do someone else's voice. It's obviously very hard, but I 387 00:28:34.440 --> 00:28:41.200 don't think it's as noticeable as like Clone Wars when Papatine's voice acting changes. 388 00:28:41.880 --> 00:28:48.880 Yeah, And so there's just like a tenderness to the Iro performance, you 389 00:28:48.920 --> 00:28:53.880 know, in contrast with Zuko and supporting that character. And you talked about 390 00:28:53.920 --> 00:29:00.160 the redemption arc of Zuko. I think it is supported and pre dated by 391 00:29:00.279 --> 00:29:07.279 Iro's redemption arc, which is largely told in flashbacks right that he was the 392 00:29:07.960 --> 00:29:14.079 general the Dragon of the West, who assaulted bossingh Say and laid siege to 393 00:29:14.119 --> 00:29:18.200 it for six hundred days and then failed to capture the city and came home 394 00:29:18.400 --> 00:29:25.240 and had a change of heart and wanted to change the Fire nation. And 395 00:29:25.319 --> 00:29:29.279 unfortunately, like at that point, I think Ozi had already taken over and 396 00:29:29.319 --> 00:29:33.880 taken control and banished to go and banished Iro. And so he is also 397 00:29:33.920 --> 00:29:40.079 on this arc of not only trying to redeem his himself, like his own 398 00:29:40.279 --> 00:29:45.160 soul, but redeem his nation that he feels like he let down in in 399 00:29:45.319 --> 00:29:49.759 like he in failing to capture the city, but also in leading this war 400 00:29:49.799 --> 00:29:53.880 effort. I think is where he comes to is that not only did he 401 00:29:53.960 --> 00:29:59.400 fail militarily, but he failed to be the leader that the fire Nation needed. 402 00:29:59.480 --> 00:30:03.440 And that's what he's trying to impart in Zuko in the story, and 403 00:30:03.119 --> 00:30:08.400 all of his lessons are just beautiful with Zuko, and he interacts with other 404 00:30:08.480 --> 00:30:14.599 characters and teaches them lessons as well, and it's just wonderful to have an 405 00:30:14.680 --> 00:30:22.000 antagonistic character able to play that role of mentor to your heroes. And I 406 00:30:22.039 --> 00:30:27.640 don't know, I mean, like the Tales of Bossing say, episode overall 407 00:30:29.079 --> 00:30:33.039 is kind of medium, but his section is just like top tier to me, 408 00:30:33.559 --> 00:30:37.599 and that I think it's like five to ten minutes, but to me, 409 00:30:37.799 --> 00:30:41.839 like that's all you need to know about Iro is in that episode, 410 00:30:41.920 --> 00:30:45.000 and it's such a beautiful story. I cry, like I cry when Zuko 411 00:30:45.119 --> 00:30:52.519 comes and apologizes to him. It's just top tier storytelling to me, and 412 00:30:52.599 --> 00:30:57.480 voice acting and it just works beautifully though. I love Iro And it's kind 413 00:30:57.519 --> 00:31:03.960 of like we talk about aspiring to be like heroes, right, and characters 414 00:31:04.200 --> 00:31:10.240 like we want them to be inspirational to me, Iro as inspirational as a 415 00:31:10.960 --> 00:31:18.000 example of positive masculinity. Yeah, and just like non violence, he obviously 416 00:31:18.079 --> 00:31:22.440 like uses violence, he uses fire bending, he fights, but I think 417 00:31:22.480 --> 00:31:26.759 he's reached a point where he's aspiring to a life of non violence. And 418 00:31:26.119 --> 00:31:29.440 at the end when he says like, after this is done, I'm just 419 00:31:29.440 --> 00:31:33.039 going to reopen my tea shop and live out my days. And I imagine 420 00:31:33.119 --> 00:31:37.240 like after that point he only ever uses fire bending to heat his tea. 421 00:31:37.359 --> 00:31:41.759 Right. I never really thought of it until this moment, but I feel 422 00:31:41.759 --> 00:31:48.000 like there's an amazing and probably very intentional mirroring between Aang and Gliro that they're, 423 00:31:48.039 --> 00:31:51.839 you know, the youngest and the oldest of the main characters we spend 424 00:31:51.920 --> 00:31:56.599 time with. And you know, I talked before about how you know, 425 00:31:56.680 --> 00:31:59.720 Aang is the person who, no matter how dark things get, he's going 426 00:31:59.759 --> 00:32:02.759 to fight and pleasure in the simple joys of you know, splashing around in 427 00:32:02.799 --> 00:32:07.519 the ocean and doing fun tricks and playing with animals and and loving animals and 428 00:32:07.799 --> 00:32:10.960 relating to them. And Iro strikes me is very much the same, and 429 00:32:12.000 --> 00:32:16.000 his like, well, okay, you know, we didn't find the clue 430 00:32:16.039 --> 00:32:19.799 that will help us get to the enemy, but I did find a piece 431 00:32:19.799 --> 00:32:22.400 for the game that I want to play, and you know, his love 432 00:32:22.400 --> 00:32:25.519 of I want to call it, uh, what do you remember what the 433 00:32:25.599 --> 00:32:29.880 name of it. It's kind of like a Fellow type game. It's like 434 00:32:29.920 --> 00:32:32.799 it's a Fellow I remember what was reading it from one of the writers, 435 00:32:32.799 --> 00:32:38.079 Like a fellow and Chess kind of mixed together. But that game his love 436 00:32:38.079 --> 00:32:43.599 of tea and the there's one scene where him and Toff was part of the 437 00:32:43.599 --> 00:32:47.200 Avatar gang, but they don't know that they're part of these rival groups yet 438 00:32:47.400 --> 00:32:51.000 meet each other and wind up and he says, you know, there are 439 00:32:51.000 --> 00:32:54.079 a few things in life better than sharing tea with an interesting stranger. And 440 00:32:55.440 --> 00:32:59.599 that sort of ability to find the joy and the love of the simplicity I 441 00:32:59.599 --> 00:33:02.480 think is Important's character and in a way is really to me. She feels 442 00:33:02.519 --> 00:33:09.799 very much a mirroring of Aang. Yeah. I feel like they're very too. 443 00:33:10.359 --> 00:33:17.799 They're two very similar characters in terms of who they are inside and kind 444 00:33:17.839 --> 00:33:21.480 of how they want the world to be and in a way, how they 445 00:33:21.640 --> 00:33:24.440 see the world. But Iro has seen a lot more of the world and 446 00:33:24.640 --> 00:33:31.119 was born in like almost an opposite setting, right like, and grew up 447 00:33:31.200 --> 00:33:37.519 in a monastery, you know, among a bunch of monks who basically you 448 00:33:37.519 --> 00:33:43.480 know, sat around like hanging out with well and I mean there air nomads, 449 00:33:43.559 --> 00:33:45.279 right, so it traveled a lot as well, but like you know, 450 00:33:45.400 --> 00:33:51.720 hanging out with skybison and you know, being friends with animals and being 451 00:33:51.960 --> 00:33:58.079 peaceful and you know, exploring the world. And Iro grew up in the 452 00:33:58.079 --> 00:34:02.240 Fire Nation after it had been and you know, like hyper militarized and become 453 00:34:02.279 --> 00:34:07.559 an empire, and you know, I think he was the oldest son, 454 00:34:07.680 --> 00:34:13.119 right, and he was the one expected to carry on after I forget's dad's 455 00:34:13.199 --> 00:34:27.039 name, Susan, his son is the okay, grandfather. Susan is the 456 00:34:27.039 --> 00:34:31.039 one who starts them on the path. Yeah, Yea is named after him, 457 00:34:31.079 --> 00:34:37.840 right, and then what's his name? And then Ozi. But so 458 00:34:37.119 --> 00:34:40.360 I think he I think Iro was like the oldest son. He's born into, 459 00:34:40.599 --> 00:34:45.039 you know, this family that's ruling this empire and is this very military 460 00:34:45.199 --> 00:34:51.760 force, and so I think he becomes a general because that's what's expected of 461 00:34:51.880 --> 00:34:57.320 him. And he and then he lays siege to the city. His son 462 00:34:57.440 --> 00:35:01.800 dies in that siege, right, and and I think maybe that's like the 463 00:35:02.000 --> 00:35:10.480 sort of triggering incident or whatever. But you know, Iro's redemption story is 464 00:35:10.480 --> 00:35:15.159 is mostly backstory, right, it's mostly something that's already happened. And then 465 00:35:15.239 --> 00:35:22.400 he's able to facilitate Zuko's redemption story, his redemption arc. But Zuko's redemption 466 00:35:22.559 --> 00:35:29.000 arc is really like the conclusion in a way of Iro's where you know, 467 00:35:29.559 --> 00:35:31.519 like Zuko's like, oh, you've got to go, you know, fight 468 00:35:31.599 --> 00:35:37.320 my dad basically, and and Iro's like, then history would just remember this 469 00:35:37.400 --> 00:35:42.400 battle as like one brother fighting another brother for control over an empire, you 470 00:35:42.440 --> 00:35:45.360 know, and like he was like, you've got to do it, you 471 00:35:45.400 --> 00:35:47.159 know, And then he doesn't fight ohs, he fights his sister. But 472 00:35:47.280 --> 00:35:52.239 like, you know, the point being that, like I think it took 473 00:35:52.599 --> 00:35:54.719 Ira most of his life to get to the point where he was able to 474 00:35:54.840 --> 00:36:00.400 kind of become who he wanted to be, like who he was in side 475 00:36:00.400 --> 00:36:05.280 to like match his behavior outside in a way. And maybe he always had 476 00:36:05.280 --> 00:36:07.559 this kind of exterior of I mean, I'm sure he always loved Tea and 477 00:36:07.639 --> 00:36:12.519 Pai Sho and like you know things like that, but like he was an 478 00:36:12.519 --> 00:36:15.320 active general in an army that was trying to conquer other nations, you know, 479 00:36:15.920 --> 00:36:22.559 and so I think he it, well, it didn't take him as 480 00:36:22.599 --> 00:36:25.559 many chronological years to kind of get everything to kind of match up the same 481 00:36:25.599 --> 00:36:34.280 way. But like that we get a character who's already gone through so much 482 00:36:34.679 --> 00:36:39.800 and we can feel that in his actions. But also, I mean, 483 00:36:40.000 --> 00:36:46.599 I think Maco did a brilliant job of like just bringing the character to life 484 00:36:46.679 --> 00:36:52.280 and making the character really feel and so when you know, when we're not 485 00:36:52.280 --> 00:36:54.280 going to talk about specific casting, right, but like as far as casting 486 00:36:54.320 --> 00:36:59.599 goes, like that's one of the roles that to me, like you really 487 00:36:59.639 --> 00:37:04.360 have to yet, right because like the bar was set so high that I 488 00:37:04.400 --> 00:37:08.239 wouldn't want to compare someone to someone but like too much. Right, But 489 00:37:08.480 --> 00:37:15.039 like, I think that's a very challenging role because there's so much depth from 490 00:37:15.199 --> 00:37:20.480 all this stuff that happened to the character that we just don't really get to 491 00:37:20.519 --> 00:37:22.639 see on screen, but we have to kind of feel it in a way. 492 00:37:24.079 --> 00:37:28.199 Yeah, I think it's really true. And you're right, the sort 493 00:37:28.239 --> 00:37:31.599 of love of tea and the kind of like simpleness is always there. And 494 00:37:32.119 --> 00:37:38.119 because there's one point where the flashback we see a Zuko and Azula being read 495 00:37:38.800 --> 00:37:43.320 one of their parents is reading them a letter that Uncle Iro sent from the 496 00:37:43.320 --> 00:37:46.119 battlefield, and he starts in a very like I found a new kind of 497 00:37:46.159 --> 00:37:51.639 tea. It's wonderful and isn't this sweet? And you know, I'm loving 498 00:37:51.719 --> 00:37:53.639 Uncle Iro. And by the way, Sue will be able to knock down 499 00:37:53.679 --> 00:37:58.360 this wall and conquer these horrible people for the glory of the fire Nation. 500 00:37:58.480 --> 00:38:01.599 And it's it's so great because it is still all of those things of Iro 501 00:38:02.239 --> 00:38:08.320 mixed with this other you know, the other stuff. Yeah, there's a 502 00:38:08.440 --> 00:38:14.440 very important moment in Iro's character that I think is so important both for him 503 00:38:14.480 --> 00:38:17.199 and for Zuko. But I'm wondering how you two see it, Which is 504 00:38:17.199 --> 00:38:20.320 that one of the things about Iro, and that one of the reasons I 505 00:38:20.320 --> 00:38:24.119 think why people so gravitate towards him, is he really comes across as you 506 00:38:24.159 --> 00:38:28.360 know, the person who will never turn their back on you. You know, 507 00:38:28.440 --> 00:38:30.920 they will always love you, they will always be there for you. 508 00:38:30.960 --> 00:38:35.519 You don't have to worry about disappointing them. And there's so many scenes where 509 00:38:36.440 --> 00:38:39.440 he feels like Zuko, you know, does something that his uncle doesn't want 510 00:38:39.519 --> 00:38:43.760 and doesn't like, and you know when he comes back, he's like, 511 00:38:43.840 --> 00:38:45.320 Uncle, you must be so disappointed in me, or you know, mad 512 00:38:45.360 --> 00:38:47.920 at me, and he's like, no, I'm just I was so sad 513 00:38:47.920 --> 00:38:51.440 that you are so lost, you know, these beautiful stepments of love. 514 00:38:52.679 --> 00:38:57.360 But then in the beginning of the third season, Zuko has given a chance 515 00:38:57.440 --> 00:39:00.880 to turn his back on the Avatar, turn his back on his uncle, 516 00:39:01.400 --> 00:39:06.920 and rejoin the Fire Nation and take up the position of you know, his 517 00:39:06.920 --> 00:39:10.360 father's right hand that he was trying so hard for in the first season. 518 00:39:10.400 --> 00:39:14.800 And then Ira was so proud of him for letting go of his desire for 519 00:39:14.840 --> 00:39:17.480 that, And as a result, Ira is arrested and Zuko gets all his 520 00:39:17.559 --> 00:39:22.360 power and privilege and position again. And in this really beautiful scene, Zuko 521 00:39:22.440 --> 00:39:25.599 goes down to the prison to try and talk to Iiro and I think, 522 00:39:25.599 --> 00:39:29.079 try that so to say like, look, I hope you understand why I 523 00:39:29.119 --> 00:39:32.519 did this, And Iro turns his back on him and just refuses to talk 524 00:39:32.559 --> 00:39:39.199 to him. And I am not sure is it supposed to be, because 525 00:39:39.440 --> 00:39:44.039 even Ira has a breaking point, and even Iro has a point where he 526 00:39:44.079 --> 00:39:46.159 will say like I may love you, but I cannot support you. I 527 00:39:46.199 --> 00:39:52.000 cannot be there for you anymore, which I don't think would be a portrayal 528 00:39:52.039 --> 00:39:53.599 of the character. I think would be a very true thing for the character, 529 00:39:54.079 --> 00:39:59.199 and a really important message of like, you know we you know where 530 00:39:59.239 --> 00:40:04.000 we can go? Or do you think it is that he just strategically understands 531 00:40:04.639 --> 00:40:07.599 that anything he does, any kind of response he has, is going to 532 00:40:07.639 --> 00:40:12.920 wind up coming off as enabling to his nephew. And it is only by 533 00:40:13.960 --> 00:40:19.920 feigning a complete lack of any empathy or desire to relate to his nephew anymore 534 00:40:20.159 --> 00:40:22.760 that he can help give the nephew his pors she needs to come back to, 535 00:40:22.800 --> 00:40:28.760 like doing the right thing. Yeah. I interpret that as kind of 536 00:40:28.800 --> 00:40:32.199 IRA's final lesson, which is that Zuko has to figure it out on his 537 00:40:32.280 --> 00:40:39.079 own, like he Zuko made the choice to betray the Avatar or to betray 538 00:40:39.159 --> 00:40:45.719 Iro in return to the Fire Nation, and so at that point he has 539 00:40:45.760 --> 00:40:51.800 the agency and he has to make the choice again later to betray his father 540 00:40:52.400 --> 00:40:59.000 and to decide to join the Avatar's group and Zuko, I mean sorry, 541 00:40:59.079 --> 00:41:04.440 Iro no ows what has to happen for like Zuko's redemption, but he can 542 00:41:04.480 --> 00:41:08.480 no longer tell him what to do anymore because it's kind of like him Zuko 543 00:41:08.599 --> 00:41:13.920 growing up, right, Like this is his moment where he has to decide 544 00:41:13.960 --> 00:41:15.920 who he's going to be. I think is like literally words that he says 545 00:41:16.039 --> 00:41:20.159 earlier to him, like you have to decide your own path, I think 546 00:41:20.199 --> 00:41:23.599 he said in the moments before betrayal at the end of season two, and 547 00:41:23.679 --> 00:41:29.400 so like he's holding true to that and turning his back not saying anything because 548 00:41:29.440 --> 00:41:30.800 he's already told him what he has to do. You have to decide your 549 00:41:30.840 --> 00:41:37.679 own path. I couldn't agree more. That's that's like exactly how I've always 550 00:41:37.719 --> 00:41:45.960 seen it, and I think it's definitely not Iro giving up on Zuko. 551 00:41:45.079 --> 00:41:51.679 I think he is deeply saddened that Zuko hasn't come to the conclusion. He 552 00:41:51.880 --> 00:41:58.920 hopes that he will yet, because I think that opportunity and a vision of 553 00:41:58.960 --> 00:42:02.400 what could be, what else could be Zuko has seen right, he has 554 00:42:02.480 --> 00:42:07.119 been able to see, Okay, things can be different. I don't have 555 00:42:07.199 --> 00:42:09.400 to be the guy looking for the avatar all the time. I don't have 556 00:42:09.480 --> 00:42:13.920 to be like my father's son, basically in terms of like his heir to 557 00:42:13.960 --> 00:42:20.480 this empire. So Iro showed him that possibility, and so did circumstance. 558 00:42:20.559 --> 00:42:23.440 Right life brought him to the understanding that things don't have to be that way. 559 00:42:24.239 --> 00:42:30.679 But he also understands that there's a way that Zuko always had things in 560 00:42:30.679 --> 00:42:36.920 his mind of repairing, you know, regaining his honor and like going back 561 00:42:36.960 --> 00:42:40.280 and then following in his father's footsteps, basically being at his side and then 562 00:42:40.440 --> 00:42:44.480 taking over it for him, presumably even though we all know a zula would 563 00:42:44.519 --> 00:42:49.039 have been the way to take over anyway. But like he now, he 564 00:42:49.079 --> 00:42:54.079 needs to see how things would be if he got his wish from the beginning, 565 00:42:54.679 --> 00:43:00.519 and he needs to understand that's not really what he wants. And I 566 00:43:00.559 --> 00:43:04.559 think Iro hopes that that's what will happen. I don't think he knows that 567 00:43:04.599 --> 00:43:07.480 will happen, right, I mean, I don't think you can know that 568 00:43:07.519 --> 00:43:10.360 will happen. But I think he maybe he trusts that, like Zuko has 569 00:43:10.400 --> 00:43:15.280 seen enough of the other possibilities, that Iro has given him everything that he 570 00:43:15.320 --> 00:43:20.320 can give him, and that now Zuko has to He has to make the 571 00:43:20.360 --> 00:43:23.199 decision himself. Right. It can't be Iro talking him into it in a 572 00:43:23.239 --> 00:43:29.440 conversation. It has to be Zuko seeing things can be one way, seeing 573 00:43:29.800 --> 00:43:32.880 how things are the way he thought he wanted them, and then deciding which 574 00:43:32.920 --> 00:43:36.039 way do I want them to be? Who do I want to be? 575 00:43:36.400 --> 00:43:37.719 You know, what role do I want to play in all of this, 576 00:43:39.480 --> 00:43:44.039 and you know, and then then he makes his choice, and yeah, 577 00:43:44.199 --> 00:43:50.440 it's crazy. Critically, like when Zuko makes his decisions, he has these 578 00:43:50.519 --> 00:43:55.039 like pretend conversations with Iro, like he does his bad irosion, like well, 579 00:43:55.079 --> 00:43:59.800 what Uncle Iro saying right is like? And he comes up with very 580 00:43:59.840 --> 00:44:04.960 like bs philosophical sounding nonsense, but it guides him on the right path. 581 00:44:05.239 --> 00:44:09.280 It's like, even though the actual Iro doesn't say anything to him at that 582 00:44:09.360 --> 00:44:15.800 point, thereafter he has the Iro inside of him to guide him right. 583 00:44:16.320 --> 00:44:21.320 And that's really what teaching and mentoring is. I think it's not about being 584 00:44:21.360 --> 00:44:25.320 with someone every step of the way. It's like giving someone as much guidance 585 00:44:25.360 --> 00:44:30.360 and wisdom and knowledge as you can and then leaving that with them. They 586 00:44:30.719 --> 00:44:34.559 have that and they can take that with them and then use that in whatever 587 00:44:34.599 --> 00:44:39.760 capacity they can manage to right. It's the classic devil and angel on your 588 00:44:39.760 --> 00:44:45.079 shoulders. But ultimately, even though you're having these pretend conversations with good and 589 00:44:45.119 --> 00:44:47.840 evil, it comes from within you, like the final decision. Yes, 590 00:44:49.519 --> 00:44:55.000 yeah, it's interesting because I see that scenes so differently for me because for 591 00:44:55.039 --> 00:45:00.960 me, one of the keys it is that is happening. Iro is also 592 00:45:01.159 --> 00:45:07.760 like barely eating and he's he's like There's a later scene in episodes later where 593 00:45:08.840 --> 00:45:12.679 Iro, I think, gets reminded that there is hope. I think someone 594 00:45:12.719 --> 00:45:15.639 gives him a piece from the game, and he all of a sudden starts 595 00:45:15.719 --> 00:45:21.239 to you know, train his body again and think about escaping and things like 596 00:45:21.280 --> 00:45:28.400 that. But all that happens after this conversation with Zuko, and I took 597 00:45:28.440 --> 00:45:32.000 it not as him, probably not that he would consciously say that he's given 598 00:45:32.079 --> 00:45:37.880 up, but then he's lost a lot of hope. Like I kind of 599 00:45:37.920 --> 00:45:43.039 saw this as Iro at his most broken because of how much he had thought 600 00:45:43.119 --> 00:45:45.719 that they're like. And I think a lot about his role in the family 601 00:45:45.800 --> 00:45:50.920 that he is. You know, he has seen the brokenness of his entire 602 00:45:51.039 --> 00:45:54.400 family, and he is very much the literal and as well as figurative outcast 603 00:45:54.440 --> 00:46:00.599 of the family, and yet Zuko has become his ally at Zuko has become 604 00:46:00.719 --> 00:46:04.679 the like no, I also see all the brokenness in the family, and 605 00:46:04.679 --> 00:46:12.599 then Zuko turns his back on him. And I love supportive you know characters 606 00:46:12.679 --> 00:46:15.199 like that who will catch people when they fall and be like, yeah, 607 00:46:15.239 --> 00:46:17.719 you did the really terrible thing here, but I still love you and all 608 00:46:17.760 --> 00:46:22.880 that. I guess for me, when that the degree of that becomes almost 609 00:46:23.039 --> 00:46:28.559 superhuman, it kind of loses something from me. So for me, I 610 00:46:28.559 --> 00:46:31.880 think it's a very important moment that even Iro has his limits of you know, 611 00:46:31.920 --> 00:46:36.239 that he maybe that he has some of that strategic thought in mind, 612 00:46:36.320 --> 00:46:38.760 but also that he he just doesn't want to, you know, show love 613 00:46:38.800 --> 00:46:44.599 and show forgiveness and comfort to Zuku at this moment because of all, you 614 00:46:44.639 --> 00:46:49.880 know how he feels about it all. And I think it is a I 615 00:46:49.880 --> 00:46:52.840 imagine that you know, in terms of writer's intent, it was probably a 616 00:46:52.840 --> 00:46:54.239 lot more of what you guys are talking about, but maybe some of what 617 00:46:54.280 --> 00:46:59.320 I'm talking about as well. But I think it is a statement to how 618 00:46:59.400 --> 00:47:02.559 good the act stating in the writing and the scene is that it's unclear that 619 00:47:02.599 --> 00:47:07.280 it's like left is kind of like what exactly is happening here, particularly because 620 00:47:07.519 --> 00:47:10.280 there is no moment to the end where Iro says, you know, please 621 00:47:10.320 --> 00:47:14.039 know, I would have never turned my back on you. I only did 622 00:47:14.079 --> 00:47:16.000 that because you needed it. Like, there's no sort of moment where Iro 623 00:47:16.159 --> 00:47:20.559 explains his actions in that moment, right, I mean, so First of 624 00:47:20.599 --> 00:47:23.320 all, I don't. I don't see it as a superhuman level of like 625 00:47:23.440 --> 00:47:30.800 not giving up on someone. I find it very relatable in very specific ways. 626 00:47:30.840 --> 00:47:37.159 But I do think he feels heartbroken and betrayed. Like I think he 627 00:47:37.280 --> 00:47:44.320 was really hoping that Zuko was gonna, you know, not rejoin you know, 628 00:47:45.079 --> 00:47:49.119 his dad with the Fire Nation and just gonna find his own way, 629 00:47:49.199 --> 00:47:52.119 a different way, you know. So I don't think he's like he has 630 00:47:52.159 --> 00:47:54.400 no emotions about it. I don't think he's like, oh, yes, 631 00:47:54.480 --> 00:47:58.960 okay, well he just needs to go through this and whatever. But I 632 00:47:59.440 --> 00:48:05.639 think he has understanding of that, maybe not that Zuku that this is what's 633 00:48:05.639 --> 00:48:09.800 going to happen, but that like, if Zuko is going to change his 634 00:48:09.880 --> 00:48:14.000 life, he's going to have to be the one to do it, you 635 00:48:14.039 --> 00:48:19.800 know. I think that's true. But and of course there's uncertainty. I 636 00:48:19.800 --> 00:48:22.599 mean, there's there's always uncertainty. I don't I don't think he has some 637 00:48:22.719 --> 00:48:27.480 like unyielding faith that Zuko that you know, the goodness in Zuko is gonna 638 00:48:27.519 --> 00:48:30.360 win out or whatever. But I think I think that's his hope. And 639 00:48:31.239 --> 00:48:35.920 but I do think I mean, I I've been in a situation where like 640 00:48:36.000 --> 00:48:43.039 I felt like I did everything I could to try and give someone whatever might 641 00:48:43.119 --> 00:48:46.760 be helpful of whatever I had to offer, and then they have to make 642 00:48:46.800 --> 00:48:51.599 their choice about what they want to do, you know, and like that's 643 00:48:51.719 --> 00:48:57.039 not I I didn't and I don't view that as giving up. I view 644 00:48:57.079 --> 00:49:00.840 that as like, at the end of the day, people have to make 645 00:49:00.840 --> 00:49:05.920 their own decisions, right, That's like I totally agree, And I think 646 00:49:06.280 --> 00:49:08.599 the super human comment was false. I get a better way, I guess 647 00:49:08.599 --> 00:49:14.840 of saying it is of me. I feel like I rowe until this point 648 00:49:14.920 --> 00:49:22.480 has been able to like basically put his his own emotional response to Zuko's actions 649 00:49:22.800 --> 00:49:23.840 were not going to be the focus. He was going to focus more on 650 00:49:23.880 --> 00:49:29.920 being a mentor and a parent figure instead of having his own emotional reaction of 651 00:49:30.039 --> 00:49:32.559 I am angry at you, and I think that that's what I'm more. 652 00:49:32.639 --> 00:49:36.639 Yeah, and I will just tack on, like I don't really care what 653 00:49:36.679 --> 00:49:38.039 the writers in tent was, like if they say, oh, this is 654 00:49:38.079 --> 00:49:40.280 what we met, Like, I don't care. I care what they put 655 00:49:40.320 --> 00:49:45.679 on screen. I am happy with my interpretation of it. I'm happy to 656 00:49:45.719 --> 00:49:51.119 hear other people's interpretations of it. I think it's cool that like different people 657 00:49:51.159 --> 00:49:52.440 can see it a little different, you know, Like I don't think that's 658 00:49:52.480 --> 00:49:57.360 a problem. I don't think that's necessarily like a deliberate oh, we want 659 00:49:57.400 --> 00:50:00.400 to make this vague. But I do think like anytime, you know, 660 00:50:00.920 --> 00:50:07.599 unless you have characters always just like speaking their motivation like out loud every single 661 00:50:07.639 --> 00:50:12.840 time, which strikes me as usually quite poor writing, there's always going to 662 00:50:12.840 --> 00:50:15.920 be room for interpretation. I think that's nice, you know, And I 663 00:50:15.039 --> 00:50:20.440 like that it allows more people to kind of relate to characters, and it 664 00:50:20.480 --> 00:50:25.079 allows more people to kind of draw something that they enjoy from it. And 665 00:50:25.679 --> 00:50:30.840 so I think I think that's cool, you know, and good. Yeah, 666 00:50:30.880 --> 00:50:34.119 I agree one hundred percent. Like when it comes to villains, you 667 00:50:34.159 --> 00:50:39.239 know, relatable villains that we identify with, it is often because their motivations 668 00:50:39.840 --> 00:50:44.400 are a bit murkier and they don't just say, like I want to do 669 00:50:44.519 --> 00:50:47.159 this because like blah blah blah, like those are what we often referred to 670 00:50:47.280 --> 00:50:52.480 is us mustache twirling right right, and so like even in this story, 671 00:50:52.639 --> 00:51:00.400 the villainy of some of the characters I think is interesting, Like I guess 672 00:51:00.400 --> 00:51:06.599 we should transition to Zuko right, like often related to Iro, but Zuko 673 00:51:06.920 --> 00:51:12.280 starts this story out as a villain, and he does have his whole like 674 00:51:13.119 --> 00:51:19.760 I have to capture the Avatar because my father. But but it's I think 675 00:51:19.800 --> 00:51:22.880 there's something so relatable about the fact that it's his father, right, like 676 00:51:23.760 --> 00:51:30.679 right, right, I mean we have to because we all have fathers, 677 00:51:30.920 --> 00:51:37.039 and not everyone has relationships with him. But when you do, like you 678 00:51:37.039 --> 00:51:42.559 you feel that, like the disappointing your father is probably one of the most 679 00:51:43.000 --> 00:51:47.039 devastating, like relatable things in many of our lives, I feel like, 680 00:51:47.639 --> 00:51:52.679 and so part of the story of Zuko is that for me, the line 681 00:51:52.679 --> 00:51:55.760 that comes to mind is from Guardians of Galaxy Too at the end of that 682 00:51:57.519 --> 00:52:01.480 where he says he may be your father, but he'll never be your daddy. 683 00:52:01.599 --> 00:52:07.159 I think is the line, right, And Ozi is Zuko's biological father, 684 00:52:07.440 --> 00:52:12.880 but in the end he chooses Iro as his daddy, he chooses the 685 00:52:12.920 --> 00:52:15.039 ideals of Ira, and I think, like, that's that's what makes Zuko 686 00:52:15.239 --> 00:52:22.559 such a great character for me. Yeah, I think it's really true. 687 00:52:22.599 --> 00:52:24.599 And I think you know, I said before that Zuko is the character I 688 00:52:24.639 --> 00:52:28.760 most relate to because I think I've I've been a pretty horrible person at various 689 00:52:28.920 --> 00:52:30.239 points in my life, and somebody who talks to him about on this podcast 690 00:52:30.280 --> 00:52:38.119 and made decisions that that hurt people quite a lot. And it's the fact 691 00:52:38.239 --> 00:52:42.920 that I think often one of the things I don't like about redemption story is 692 00:52:42.920 --> 00:52:46.159 is this idea that you you have a moment where all of a sudden you're 693 00:52:46.159 --> 00:52:51.920 better and now you have you know, you've saved your son from the evil 694 00:52:51.960 --> 00:52:54.880 person, or you've you know, decided to do good and now everything is 695 00:52:54.920 --> 00:53:01.239 better and everyone accepts you. And Zukho really struggles to find redemption. He 696 00:53:01.320 --> 00:53:07.039 really struggles because, in part because it's not like there's a clear moral compass 697 00:53:07.079 --> 00:53:14.199 that he is rejecting and then deciding to accept again. He has been taught 698 00:53:14.280 --> 00:53:17.920 all of his life that finding your father's honor and being honored in the eyes 699 00:53:17.960 --> 00:53:22.440 of your father and your community is the moral good thing, and so he's 700 00:53:22.480 --> 00:53:27.880 looking for that, and it's the he is questioning that and then then going 701 00:53:27.960 --> 00:53:31.760 back on it and finding, you know, which way to turn, And 702 00:53:36.119 --> 00:53:38.360 for me, the fact that his stumbles and they're like, he wants to 703 00:53:38.400 --> 00:53:42.000 do the right thing, but he he wants to do the right thing, 704 00:53:42.039 --> 00:53:44.960 but he also wants to go back to do the comfortable thing, and that 705 00:53:45.039 --> 00:53:46.320 he wants to do the right thing but isn't always sure what that is. 706 00:53:47.480 --> 00:53:52.679 And then that especially in the latter half of season three, when he really 707 00:53:52.760 --> 00:53:57.440 has realized that he can't be that person anymore and he wants to join with 708 00:53:57.480 --> 00:54:01.119 the Avatar and help the Avatar, and I don't welcome him with open arms. 709 00:54:01.400 --> 00:54:07.960 And there's one scene in particular that I really incredibly related to because one 710 00:54:07.960 --> 00:54:10.400 of the things I found it and I've talked with others, you know, 711 00:54:10.679 --> 00:54:15.719 who've had moments like this of where like I'm trying to show people that I'm 712 00:54:15.760 --> 00:54:16.800 not the person who I used to be, and I'm trying to do the 713 00:54:16.880 --> 00:54:22.719 right thing. And I don't want to get into the exact details of what 714 00:54:22.719 --> 00:54:25.000 happened in my own life, but like, there was a moment that I 715 00:54:25.000 --> 00:54:29.280 described as like, you know, if everybody knows you're an alcoholic and someone 716 00:54:29.360 --> 00:54:32.239 sees you drinking ginger ale in a dark bar and thinks that it's a beer 717 00:54:32.840 --> 00:54:37.000 something that I did being seen by someone who doesn't understand the context or doesn't 718 00:54:37.000 --> 00:54:39.800 even know like a fat factor to about it, or you know, misunderstoods 719 00:54:39.800 --> 00:54:45.599 whatever it is, but just that feeling of doing trying to do the right 720 00:54:45.679 --> 00:54:50.000 thing and having it be seen as not as good as you think it is 721 00:54:50.039 --> 00:54:53.039 because you haven't really understood the depth of what you did wrong incredibly relatable. 722 00:54:53.599 --> 00:54:59.239 But then that also happening of the doing the right thing but having it be 723 00:54:59.280 --> 00:55:02.599 misunderstood because the suspicion people have of you for very legitimate reasons, and those 724 00:55:02.639 --> 00:55:07.000 things happening at the same time, and just the feeling of like, how 725 00:55:07.199 --> 00:55:08.559 how do I deal with this? How do I seek redemption? Is it 726 00:55:08.599 --> 00:55:13.360 even fair to seek redemption? And the way that that's played out, and 727 00:55:14.039 --> 00:55:19.119 particularly I think because for so much of the show, the mom figure and 728 00:55:19.159 --> 00:55:22.119 the one who I think has almost as big a heart as Iro is Katara, 729 00:55:22.880 --> 00:55:27.559 and the fact that it's she who is the last to accept him and 730 00:55:27.599 --> 00:55:31.519 the most hesitant to accept him. It plays so incredibly well. And I 731 00:55:31.559 --> 00:55:36.719 just think that there's just so much about that story that I think is very 732 00:55:36.719 --> 00:55:38.480 relatable, both to people who have screwed up and are trying to do better 733 00:55:38.519 --> 00:55:42.639 but also to the repair, but also to all of us in terms of 734 00:55:42.639 --> 00:55:46.599 seeing the people who have heard us of that you can both recognize that a 735 00:55:46.639 --> 00:55:50.880 person's doing growth but not because I don't think there's ever a moment where the 736 00:55:50.880 --> 00:55:52.719 avatar Creu is wrong not to open him with open arms, you know, 737 00:55:53.280 --> 00:55:59.760 and that you can recognize a person's done better, but also recognize your own 738 00:55:59.760 --> 00:56:01.440 pain about the situation is such that you don't want them back in your life, 739 00:56:01.480 --> 00:56:04.239 or that it's gonna take more to have the back in your life. 740 00:56:05.320 --> 00:56:12.880 M Well, that's heavy. I mean, it's very good and it's a 741 00:56:12.880 --> 00:56:17.760 lot to think about. Like, so here's here's the thing with Zuko. 742 00:56:20.199 --> 00:56:23.840 When we talk about redemption arcs or redemption stories. You know, we are 743 00:56:23.880 --> 00:56:28.960 Star Wars fans. We've talked about this a lot. We kind of dislike 744 00:56:29.119 --> 00:56:34.239 the Darth Vader and the Kylo Ren redemptions because they redeemed in death right, 745 00:56:34.280 --> 00:56:37.159 Like it's they they don't have that moment with the other characters where they have 746 00:56:37.199 --> 00:56:43.639 to apologize and try to regain trust. And then in Rebels we have the 747 00:56:44.039 --> 00:56:45.719 callous arc where we do get that, and we like that a lot. 748 00:56:46.599 --> 00:56:54.400 Here it is it's it's so brutal because Zuko starts as a villain and so 749 00:56:54.599 --> 00:56:58.519 like for the main cast, like he's a villain, like you have to 750 00:56:58.559 --> 00:57:04.960 redeem from that. But he has the secondary arc in season two where he 751 00:57:05.119 --> 00:57:09.360 and Iro travel to Bossing Say and he has this glimpse of a peaceful life. 752 00:57:09.719 --> 00:57:14.559 He has that beautiful episode Zuko Alone, where he learns what the Fire 753 00:57:14.639 --> 00:57:17.360 Nation people think, or the Earth Nation people think of the Fire Nation. 754 00:57:17.800 --> 00:57:22.199 And even though he saves this kid, this kid, you know, has 755 00:57:22.239 --> 00:57:25.760 this built up racism and says like, I don't want your gift, like 756 00:57:25.840 --> 00:57:29.480 you're from the Fire Nation. I hate you, even though you just saved 757 00:57:29.639 --> 00:57:32.679 my family, right, Like that's very powerful, and it's him kind of 758 00:57:32.719 --> 00:57:37.119 like learning about the world, learning about himself. And then at the end 759 00:57:37.119 --> 00:57:42.840 of that he falls again, like he fails Iro, he betrays Iro and 760 00:57:42.880 --> 00:57:49.840 the Avatar. And that's what makes it so devastating and so redemptive to me, 761 00:57:50.599 --> 00:57:54.480 is that he starts as a villain already and has a like upward curving 762 00:57:54.559 --> 00:58:00.440 path of redemption and then falls and we have to go through that with him, 763 00:58:00.800 --> 00:58:04.719 and then spend that that part of the first half of seasons three where 764 00:58:04.760 --> 00:58:08.000 IRA's not talking to him, giving him the cold shoulder, and we're devastated 765 00:58:08.079 --> 00:58:15.960 by that and just to have that whole like roller coaster. Is what makes 766 00:58:15.000 --> 00:58:19.719 it so good to me is like we we have to have two redemptions essentially. 767 00:58:21.440 --> 00:58:24.239 Yeah to me, no, go ahead. And to finish up like 768 00:58:24.320 --> 00:58:30.159 to have the the Avatar gang, I think there's like three episodes where he 769 00:58:30.239 --> 00:58:35.360 has to go on like little adventures with each of them with their gang Sokka 770 00:58:35.400 --> 00:58:39.639 and Katara, And that tof is like I didn't get my Yeah, it 771 00:58:39.679 --> 00:58:47.840 a life changing field. They dedicate three episodes to him doing penance essentially with 772 00:58:47.920 --> 00:58:52.400 the three main characters. I think four even because those soccer ones like a 773 00:58:52.440 --> 00:58:55.920 two parter. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I think. 774 00:58:57.239 --> 00:59:00.760 And the fact that it's it's not four episod with the whole gang because he's 775 00:59:00.840 --> 00:59:06.079 hurt each of them in different ways. Yeah, and so that journey has 776 00:59:06.119 --> 00:59:13.079 to be individualized for each of them. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I 777 00:59:13.480 --> 00:59:22.599 think it feels like more earned than any other redemption arc I really can think 778 00:59:22.639 --> 00:59:25.199 of. Like I mean, I'll say I love the Darth Vader redemption arc 779 00:59:25.679 --> 00:59:29.519 because even an empire, I like kind of thought he was like the main 780 00:59:29.599 --> 00:59:34.920 character, right, but like although I had seen Jedi first, maybe I'm 781 00:59:34.960 --> 00:59:39.800 not sure I was little, but like I do feel the same thing where 782 00:59:39.800 --> 00:59:43.599 it's like, I don't know, maybe Darth Vader had to die so Zuko 783 00:59:43.679 --> 00:59:49.440 could live, but like it's you know, I love getting to see a 784 00:59:49.480 --> 00:59:55.159 redemption arc where the character not only lives on but then tries to either a 785 00:59:55.159 --> 01:00:01.199 tone or just just make up for or cause not Like he's not trying to 786 01:00:01.320 --> 01:00:05.960 undo the harm that he did, right, He's not going around to help 787 01:00:06.039 --> 01:00:08.840 rebuild the villages that he incinerated, right, That's not what he's doing. 788 01:00:09.079 --> 01:00:13.159 He's trying to Yeah, yeah, maybe he does that later, Yeah, 789 01:00:13.440 --> 01:00:19.960 but he's he's trying to He's gone from doing harm and making the world less 790 01:00:20.079 --> 01:00:24.360 like the way that you know, the protagonists and the viewers mostly would want 791 01:00:24.360 --> 01:00:28.800 to see it and try to make the world war that way. Now, 792 01:00:29.079 --> 01:00:32.360 so you know, it's kind of like, you know, kind of balancing 793 01:00:32.360 --> 01:00:36.760 the scales or whatever. But it's like, it doesn't feel like that's why 794 01:00:36.760 --> 01:00:39.599 he's doing it. To me, it doesn't feel like he's seeking redemption. 795 01:00:40.280 --> 01:00:45.440 It feels to me like he understands who he wants to be and now he 796 01:00:45.519 --> 01:00:50.719 just wants to do that right, And he does have to make things up 797 01:00:50.760 --> 01:00:54.280 and kind of square things with the other characters in order to really be accepted 798 01:00:54.440 --> 01:00:59.920 into their you know, into Team Avatar. But like that's not why he 799 01:01:00.119 --> 01:01:01.719 does He doesn't do it because like it feels like, oh, there's this 800 01:01:01.840 --> 01:01:07.800 score sheet. It's like he wants to stop his father, right, he 801 01:01:07.840 --> 01:01:12.920 wants to change the Fire Nation, and you know, he grew up learning 802 01:01:13.280 --> 01:01:15.079 you know, you're supposed to go fight for your country against the other countries, 803 01:01:15.159 --> 01:01:20.119 right against the other nations. But like now he's like, that's not 804 01:01:20.400 --> 01:01:22.000 how I want the world to be. Like, we don't the Fire Nation 805 01:01:22.079 --> 01:01:25.760 doesn't need to spread its goodness across the world. The Fire Nation can just 806 01:01:25.760 --> 01:01:30.239 be the Fire Nation. The Earth Nation can be the Earth Nation, and 807 01:01:30.000 --> 01:01:34.039 I guess and can just be the Air Nation for now. But like you 808 01:01:34.079 --> 01:01:37.840 know, and the Water Nation, but well it's there's no Water Nation, 809 01:01:37.960 --> 01:01:42.960 right, there's two water tribes. But the point being just that like it 810 01:01:43.239 --> 01:01:46.280 it feels the way he stumbles feels it doesn't to me. It doesn't feel 811 01:01:46.360 --> 01:01:50.960 contrived, right, it feels like super believable. If they tried to do 812 01:01:51.000 --> 01:01:53.920 that three or four times through like a whole bunch of seasons, Like if 813 01:01:53.920 --> 01:01:59.760 this series went seven seasons and they said Okay, Zuko can only like, 814 01:02:00.639 --> 01:02:05.159 you know, turn in like season seven, I think that might have been 815 01:02:05.199 --> 01:02:08.280 excruciating, you know. And there's another series that I like a lot that 816 01:02:08.320 --> 01:02:14.840 has a redemption arc that is also very highly praised that I like, but 817 01:02:15.079 --> 01:02:17.880 did feel like there were a few too many of that moment in, you 818 01:02:17.920 --> 01:02:22.000 know, and I think the one I think we're talking about capture from Shira, 819 01:02:22.400 --> 01:02:23.719 and I do praise it all the time, I do think that it 820 01:02:23.760 --> 01:02:25.840 has won too many of the right Yeah, so like it could be both 821 01:02:25.920 --> 01:02:29.320 right, it could be great, but also just you know, they had 822 01:02:29.360 --> 01:02:31.119 a certain number of seasons and here it's like maybe they were going to do 823 01:02:31.159 --> 01:02:34.719 four seasons and then do some stuff after the end of this, but like 824 01:02:35.400 --> 01:02:38.719 three seasons felt so right for this show. It felt like a disciplines, 825 01:02:38.880 --> 01:02:42.920 like this is the story we have to tell. We're going to tell that 826 01:02:43.039 --> 01:02:47.719 story. And they did. And it wasn't such a long story that like 827 01:02:49.280 --> 01:02:52.000 you had to just keep dragging off out like Zuko's arc. You know, 828 01:02:52.039 --> 01:02:57.400 It's like instead you got to kind of hit to me what felt like just 829 01:02:57.480 --> 01:03:01.360 the right number of points, right, And you know, there's something about 830 01:03:01.360 --> 01:03:06.199 a trilogy that often works well you know, the end of the second one 831 01:03:06.639 --> 01:03:09.199 is the low point, not just for the heroes, because like, Ang 832 01:03:09.320 --> 01:03:13.519 just got blasted by a lightning bolt in the back when he was in the 833 01:03:13.519 --> 01:03:16.440 Avatar state and now he's his chokras are all jammed or whatever, but like 834 01:03:16.719 --> 01:03:21.719 it's a low point for Zuko because he's achieved what he wanted to achieve, 835 01:03:21.760 --> 01:03:24.920 but that's not what he really wants or should be doing, right, Right, 836 01:03:25.079 --> 01:03:30.199 So I think that's so true and one of the things I think is 837 01:03:30.239 --> 01:03:32.119 so essential about what he's doing at the end there, because right, it's 838 01:03:32.119 --> 01:03:35.920 not just that he wants them to be forgiven for his own well being, 839 01:03:35.960 --> 01:03:39.599 it's I want to help. Yeah, And until this point he's had a 840 01:03:39.639 --> 01:03:43.719 real like I need to be the fighter, I need to be the one, 841 01:03:44.840 --> 01:03:47.119 and him having this moment of the best way I can help is not 842 01:03:47.239 --> 01:03:51.960 to be the one to take these people on. It's to help train Ang 843 01:03:52.199 --> 01:03:54.239 so that he can be the one. That also just feels like such an 844 01:03:54.280 --> 01:04:00.360 important shift for him of metal level. It's sort of like from most of 845 01:04:00.360 --> 01:04:03.519 the show, these two have each had their point of view story and it's 846 01:04:03.599 --> 01:04:06.400 him being like, you know what, I'm not the main character Yeah, 847 01:04:06.440 --> 01:04:11.599 I'm okay, I'm gonna step back and be this secondary, secondary but incredibly 848 01:04:11.639 --> 01:04:15.159 important onle and like, who's his role model that he's chosen to take on 849 01:04:15.320 --> 01:04:21.039 as his sort of figure And what did Iro do? Iro decided I'm going 850 01:04:21.119 --> 01:04:26.199 to spend this part of my life trying to help someone else become who they 851 01:04:26.199 --> 01:04:30.239 can be, you know, so like Zuko is literally passing on that same 852 01:04:30.039 --> 01:04:34.000 lesson that's saying, like, okay, Iro gave me everything he could so 853 01:04:34.079 --> 01:04:36.440 I could be the best me that I could be. Now I'm going to 854 01:04:36.480 --> 01:04:40.320 try and give aang what I have to give so that he can be a 855 01:04:40.400 --> 01:04:45.599 fully realized avatar and you know, kill my dad. Yeah, there's one 856 01:04:45.599 --> 01:04:46.519 other thing I want to add just on that, which is kind of go 857 01:04:46.559 --> 01:04:49.639 back to what's happening with Iro in that scene moment that we can move on 858 01:04:49.719 --> 01:04:55.079 to promise, but it goes back to Riki something you said about how Ira 859 01:04:55.280 --> 01:05:00.719 is both wanting to help Zuko find redemption but also wanting to redeem himself in 860 01:05:00.760 --> 01:05:04.119 some ways for his role and all the terrible things that the Fire Nation did, 861 01:05:04.159 --> 01:05:10.159 and to help change the Fire Nation for me. I think that's the 862 01:05:10.199 --> 01:05:13.280 other part of that's because the other thing that happens there that once he does 863 01:05:13.320 --> 01:05:16.760 begin training, what he's doing is preparing himself to go be part of the 864 01:05:16.760 --> 01:05:20.719 White Lotus Society, which we learned he is really the head of which is 865 01:05:20.719 --> 01:05:25.360 going to do its own thing to help fight the Fire Nation and liberate the 866 01:05:25.400 --> 01:05:30.880 Earth Kingdom. Specifically, yeah, to deliberate the city that he was trying 867 01:05:30.920 --> 01:05:35.119 to conquer that his nieces, that his niece wound up the actually conquering with 868 01:05:35.199 --> 01:05:40.679 his nephew's help. And I think so to me, again, I agree 869 01:05:40.719 --> 01:05:44.039 with that it's not turning as back necessarily on Zuko, but I think it 870 01:05:44.119 --> 01:05:47.679 is a moment of his saying that until now I have felt the best thing 871 01:05:47.719 --> 01:05:51.079 I can do to help the Fire Nation is to help Zuko be the person 872 01:05:51.119 --> 01:05:56.559 the Fire Nation needs. Now I hope Zuku can become that, but I'm 873 01:05:56.559 --> 01:05:59.480 going to go off on my own quest to focus on making the Fire Nation 874 01:05:59.559 --> 01:06:02.119 or what it should and fixing the harm of the Fire Nation rather than focusing 875 01:06:02.119 --> 01:06:04.960 on Zuco. Well, we need to keep moving on to some of the 876 01:06:05.000 --> 01:06:09.760 other characters and plot lines. And I'm also gonna say this because we're going 877 01:06:09.840 --> 01:06:12.199 to go a while, so this is going to be the end of part 878 01:06:12.239 --> 01:06:15.519 one to our listeners, We're gonna have a second episode. We're gonna record 879 01:06:15.559 --> 01:06:18.239 some bonus content at the end of that second episode, which might get broken 880 01:06:18.320 --> 01:06:20.679 up over the two or it might just be at the end of the second 881 01:06:20.679 --> 01:06:25.320 one. We have a lot more to say, so I can't really say 882 01:06:25.320 --> 01:06:29.159 we have spoken. I will say we are in the midst of speaking. 883 01:06:29.960 --> 01:06:30.599 Thank you so much.