WEBVTT

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M he was called cold. That
was he was cold, Barn. What's

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going on up there? Could be
the most important event in history? Now

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I am coll destroy our worlds,
I said. I hope this is close

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to hell. It's all never again. Hello and welcome to the TALESM a

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Dark podcast. I'm your host,
Bob. You're with my lovely co host

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Brittany. Hey, guys, what's
up Brittany? How is it going today?

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It's going good? How are you? I mean you sound exhausted?

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It could it be the fact that
I forgot to turn the air conditioner on

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in the studio again, Yes,
that's absolutely that fact. Actually, may

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it also be coupled with the fact
that it's currently like eight forty five at

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night and it's still ninety degrees outside. It's also that as well. Yeah,

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something about this year's heat wave.
I'm telling you guys, it has

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been I don't remember anything quite like
this where it's this hot in the early

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evening like this. Yeah. But
with that being said, miss Britany,

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we have a very exciting guest today, Yes we do. It's been literally

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months in the making. Ye.
So when it comes to certain books,

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I think I set myself up for
failure where I'm like, you know what

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I used to read a whole Harry
Potter in three days doesn't really apply to

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a moderns for one. Yeah.
But this book, like I said,

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it's been months in the making,
where we reached out to Marco months ago

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and we're like, hey, we
would love to have you on the show,

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just give me a few days to
really go through this book. And

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I remember the look on your face
when you got it. You got about

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seven eight pages and you're like,
hey, hey, this isn't going to

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be just a few days. No, oh god, no, no it

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was. It's a study and it
has homework, and it's a work book

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for sure. It's that and everything
else in between. Because I do know

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that you had a very interesting response
when you first got into the book.

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You're like, you know, I
actually understand some of this and it's making

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me crazy. And that's how I
knew it was like, Oh, this

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is gonna be some good shit,
because you approached anything with the occult and

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mysticism and magic with a very weird, like scientific approach of like, well,

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it's a direct contradiction to everything I
ever study when it comes to magic,

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and it's so hilated because when I
have a question about the stuff,

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You're the first person I asked like, Hey, how does this stef Roth

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really interchange with this one? You're
like, well, the second law of

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motion doesn't really fucking apply here,
but this is how it works. And

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I'm like, okay, perfect love. It makes me angry, and that's

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one thing. It really does take
me a long time to study different aspects

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of a coal and magic because I'm
angry about it. I'm very very angry

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about it because I'm like, this
shouldn't fucking work. Yeah, why am

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I even studying this? Holy shit, this fucking works. That's that's what

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I loved when it was so weird
when you initially were like, I think

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I want to try this. I
want to I want to see how deep

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this rabbit hole goes. And now
you're still digging deeper and deeper and deeper.

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Yeah, so real quick, before
we give Marco a call, though

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I want to give a we don't
give a whole lot of like media suggestions

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here on the show. Go watch
Cave of Bones on Netflix. Oh,

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that was very very good. The
idea behind the homeowner Letty recently discovered species.

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It would it be it'd be a
species, right, it is a

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species. The idea between the homo. I don't want to give anything away.

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It's pre homo homo sapiens. Yes, and this definitely challenges the the

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spirituality of man, for there's no
other real way to say it. And

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it's extremely interesting because they don't approach
it to bash a religion or a faith,

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or they don't see like, hey, Christianity is a fucking myth because

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we discovered this species. Now,
the whole point of this was evidence of

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belief of life after death in some
form some way, whether that be resurrection,

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whether that be Christianity, Catholicism,
Judaism, Buddhism, what have you.

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It doesn't matter. It is the
evidence itself, the ritual itself of

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celebration of life after death. Yes, that is very very important, especially

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in these very very primal prim primate
subspecies. Yeah. So, and it's

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interesting because it raised question because I
correct me if I'm wrong. But there

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was a point in the show where
they had sent either photos or maybe parts

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of the ex exo skeleton other specialists. You said, yeah, Homeo Nalletti's

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brain was too small to do something
like bury they're dead and then they discovered

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proof of it. And that's what's
bizarre to me, because I do want

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to kind of explain why it's interesting, because I watched some online reviews and

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people are like, yeah, this
is all staged, and I'm like,

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which part is staged? And then
you listen to their review they think that

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these people man made this cave that
they found the Noletti in, and that

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these are hundreds of years old stalactites
and slag mine. Apparently it's all man

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made, and that they had filed
down bones of earlier Homo sapiens and put

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them in here in in order to
like spite. The Catholic Church was a

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lot of the explanations being done,
and I watched a few church sermons that

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are like, yeah, if you
guys watch us in our congregation, you're

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to hell. Even I can't save
you. And I'm like, hang on

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a second. That was a very
like direct threat. Show me, show

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me an exodus where it says you
can't learn about the home on Aletti please

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someone. Now, the impact of
that being true would be the fact that

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it's not just religion that's involved.
We are still actively learning our own human

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history. To this day, we
learn things new every single day. Yeah,

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and not only that, but one
fact that I like to talk about

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that I was actually told in high
school it's either within one or two years,

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history and science books become irrelevant,
like printed textbooks that you use with

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your children who go to school.
Within one or two years become irrelevant because

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we learned so much new stuff and
how different things intertwined, how different things

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worked. That it's it's pretty fascinating
how much we don't actually know, so

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to lie about a whole subspecies would
be damning for the entire scientific community,

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not just religion. Absolutely, and
it kind of build on that. When

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I went through college and I got
my degree in business management, they don't

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even teach. What's kind of funny
is we watched the what was the movie

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The Big Short where they discussed subprime
mortgages in prime I hold recession of two

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thousand and eighty. Yeah. The
way that I was taught, how that

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all went down versus what actually happened
was obscure and out of date within a

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year of of me finishing my degree. That's what That's all. It shows,

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like how fast knowledge changes and something
is simplistic as business, So when

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you're discussing something like the human brain
and an expansion of consciousness. It's no

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telling how fast these things change.
And now let's apply that to magic,

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because we are in a ever evolving, ever changing society of different magicians,

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different magicians, different ceremonial magic.
And Thelma, which is one thing we

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actually taught we will talk about today
with Marco, is the fact that Thelma

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is basically brand new in the grand
scheme of things. So let's give him

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a call. Let's do it,
all right, miss Britney. So we

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are joined by Marco Visconti, the
author of the Alistir Crowley Manual. And

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there are a few people that I
hold an extremely high regard when it comes

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to this topic, and realistically Alan
Greenfield's about it. So to get a

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chance to talk to Marco, I'm
extremely excited. So I'm I don't want

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to waste anywhere else as time.
So Marco, how are you doing,

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buddy? Well, thank you for
the fantastic introduction, and it's great to

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be here. I'm fine here in
London. We kind of skipped summer.

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We went straight back into into otumn, which is not ideal for my Italian

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bones. I need some system sun
right about. Hopefully August will be will

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be better. But apart from that, everything is fine. I'm glad to

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be here, glad to have you. Yeah, absolutely so. I want

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to jump right into it. The
when I saw your book first advertised on

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Twitter, I was like, holy
shit, this is going to ruffle some

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feathers. Oh yeah. The first
off, kudos to you for printing it

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in hardback. There are too many
occult books that are printed in, you

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know, the softcover. And nothing
against the printing agencies or what have you,

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but if you're gonna use it as
an essential tool in your tool kit,

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it's hard to kind of take a
soft cover everywhere you go, especially

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if you're traveling, if you're doing
any kind of magic and a different area

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beside your home, it's hard to
take something with you that's a softcover.

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I would agree with you. I
was very very happy when Watkins, which

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is my publisher, told me that
the book would be on hardcover. Of

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course, you know you've seen it
it is. It is a mass market

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hardcover right in the sense that the
paper is not like the best paper out

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there. The art coover the core
itself is not like the best, like

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fine leather, which is you know
there you got this um, this tendency

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in occult publishing that either you have
super cheap paperbacks or you have super high,

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high hand expensive hardbacks. I was
very happy that Watkins was keen on

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doing pretty much the middle of the
road. Right. This is a manual.

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This is something that I hope people
we read. But I hope people

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we used to uh to do magic, you know, to practice magic,

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and so you know, as you
said, having something that's a little bit

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sturdy and maybe I don't know,
if a candle walks, you know,

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goes onto it, you can scrub
it off. It doesn't burn that easily.

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That's better. And yes, maybe
that happened to me a couple of

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times over the years. We'll talk
about its catching fire. Now. It's

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hilarious because I reached out to you
basically as soon as the book was available

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for purchase. I think I actually
I reached out right when it was announced

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for like pre purchase, and I
said, yeah, give me a few

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weeks, Marco, I want to
have you on the show. I want

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to discuss this. And then I
got it and I was like, Okay,

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this isn't a few weeks. This
is a few months, and then

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a few months goes by and I'm
like, this might be a few years.

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Let's just Marco on the show now. So I think I forgot about

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because it's it's not like a you
know, a novel that's a you know,

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cover to cover read. You just
do three chapters a day and you're

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done. It's very much a workbook, but it's also a workbook, and

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you can get lost very easily,
like where you're thinking, I'm gonna do

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ten pages, Oh I've done sixty. What the hell happened? I got

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so enthralled with what was being written. So I gotta give you some credit

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for that, and also just some
major thanks for sticking it out and still

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coming on the show after several months. I'm not hearing back from us.

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Oh you know, first of all, don't worry about that. Like you,

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you've you've been fantastic in the sense
that I could tell you stories of

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people that you know, contacted me
as you did right away and then completely

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ghosted me. I don't know if
maybe they read the book and they realized

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that there is a little bit of
you know, controversyinda in here and in

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the book, especially at the end
when I speak about, you know,

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magic orders and if you should join
them, and what I noticed in them.

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I'm gonna get a little bit spicy
from this very beginning, but I

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noticed in the in the podcast milieu, especially in Europe not so much in

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the States, is that people want
to really be on the good side of

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everybody, which it's kind of hard
to be if you ask me, right.

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So anyway, the long story short, I'm I'm very I knew you,

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I know that I would be here
at some point, and I'm happy

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to be here. You know,
a long lass, and it's not even

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a lot of lass, because you
think about it. The book came out

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in February, and so it's what
six months now, right, six months

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later, But if you think about
it, the book itself tells you that

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if you stick to the plan that
is provided by the by the lessons in

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the book, that would that should
the last six to nine months. So

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we're right on schedule. It's exactly
well. And I also want to applaud

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you for being approachable because I want
to tell you this quick story totally the

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podcast. A few times, I've
only met a handful of self proclaims Elamites

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out in the wild, so to
speak, and it's like a pokemon,

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you're trying to catch them. But
we were. We were on a trip

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down to New Orleans, Louisiana,
and very early on, so the early

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timeline, I think this is twenty
twenty when we went down there and had

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this experience. So this is the
first year of us having Tales from the

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Dark. Yeah. So we make
a trip down to New Orleans, and

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I was just interested in the hoodoo
culture and just getting to soak everything in,

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you know, because there's New Orleans
is such a beautiful miss miss mishmatch

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of just so many different types of
magic and so many different types of people

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and cultures. Yeah. Yeah,
and we so I'm like, let's go

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look first esoteric shops. Let's look
first miss shops to maybe get some cool

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books. And I had made the
mistake and I said, do you have

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anything written by Alistair Crawley? And
this woman her ears peak up, her

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face gets read and she goes,
it is not Crowley, it is Crowley,

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like holy, and that's how I
know that you don't know what you're

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talking about. I was like,
whoa, oh wow, that's a lot.

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I'm just and I said no.
She went on this twenty minute escapade

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about how wrong Bob was, and
I sat there in the corner. I'm

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like, I'm just gonna look at
the books and pretend I'm not with him.

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I will let him get scouted.
Well, and I explained to her,

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said, I'm very new. I
wouldn't even call myself initiated. I'm

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in the pre initiation phase where I'm
interested. And she's like, well,

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this isn't where you start. You
do not start here. This is not

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this is Crowley is not for beginners. This is where you end. And

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I'm like, Okay, this is
horrible. And if anyone else had this

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experience, I would understand why they'd
be like all felamites or jackasses, and

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I'm not dealing with them period.
Well, come to find out from a

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magic shop that once we went back
to New Orleans, we went the next

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year, went back to win to
another magic shop. She was actually excommunicated

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from her from her her con Yeah, the the she was with two minor

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orders down there, and they kicked
she was kicked out of both of them

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for being terrible, for hexing folks, for just being not a good person

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to have around. You know,
I wonder if I know this person,

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and it might be that I do
know who we're talking about. I've been

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to New Orleans a couple of times
in my life a lot, one of

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the most beautiful and weird cities in
the world, and it's it's one of

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those places that where magic is so
steeped into the culture and and so it's

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still living in the you know,
in the everyday culture that you get all

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sorts of strange personalities and ego and
narcissism, et cetera, et cetera,

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exter which subtly, in my experience, it's you know, part and parts

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of the occult life, right,
yeah, um, the you know what

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the part The problem with Telemites,
first of all is that they exist,

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I would say, But the second
point is that a lot of Telemites really

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aren't like they're more like Kroeites in
the sense that they really want to be

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krow A two point two. They
really want to live up to Kroe's shenanigans

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and often horrible personality. Kroe was
a very complex human being, without doubts,

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a genius, a polymath, but
also somebody that I don't think I

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would have ever wanted him as a
friend or even as an acquaintance, right.

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Um. It happens with a lot
of in history. We know that

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a lot of most of the times, the like incredible genius tend to be

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difficult people to to to deal with
and to to live with. Um.

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And what suddens me is that if
in my direct experience as yours, right,

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a lot of Telemites really want to
be like him in the sense that

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really want to be unapproachable. There's
almost like this area is or of superiority

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and what you what you what you
just told me. It's something that I've

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seen it happen countless times. And
you wouldn't believe how many, uh you

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know, bad bad reviews, death
threats and other things that I got because

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of the book I wrote, obviously, but in general, because I try

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to be uh you know, I
try to leave all this this chroleanism behind,

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and I try to remember that Krowle
himself wanted Celemma as a magical philosophy

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of the New Eion to be for
everyone. These people tend to forget that.

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In the introduction of magic with magic
interim practice liber Aba, which was

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Chrole's attempt at creating its magnum opus
books Book of Magic for the Masses.

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In the interaction, he says this, and I, you know, I

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reported this in my own book.
He says that, you know, he

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wants magic to be for everybody,
for the banker, for the pugilist,

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for the housewife. Of course he
failed doing that, because if you try

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to read magic interim practice, well
good luck if you understand anything, having

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you know, no background whatsoever in
an occult in utica, any magic chrole.

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You know, Chrowley really expected so
much from its readers because he was

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this genius poly mouth, right.
But um, I would argue that when

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you know, when this person told
you that maybe you shouldn't start with Crowley,

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maybe that was true up until my
book. And that's I'm going to

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be a little bit like this.
But I do think that I really wanted

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to focus on the things that everybody
can do from from the get go,

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right like if you don't know and
if you don't know anything about magic,

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I hope that you can, and
I think you can. You can get

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my book and you can get on
with the practice. I don't expect every

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anybody to, you know, read
the book once and say, oh I

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got everything right, because as you
know, having read the book, I

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get into place, into moment,
into parts in the second part of the

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book where I speak of tell them
a proper that they get very philosophical.

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And unless you unless you have a
background in philosophy, or unless you've been

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reading on the subject for a while, it can get a little bit confusing.

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Also because tell Thema is confusing by
nature in the sense that Crowley did

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a lot to try and flesh it
out, and the people that came after

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Crowley, uh, they added their
their bits and bobs. But Crowley,

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sorry, but tell Themma really is
a very young philosophy. It is meant

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to be, you know, the
philosophy of the eon of the child and

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maybe this idea of you know,
childless childlike wonder, which is not always

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very clear, right, It's a
bit ephemeral. It's almost like encoded in

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the in the philosophy itself. So
I wonder if we can finally move into

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you know, into for real,
into a new eon where people can wander

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into a metaphysical shop and not having
to be rebuffed because they haven't read all

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the material all they say Crowley,
I mean, yeah, I mean.

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Crowley famously said my name's rhymes with
holy and not with Fowley. But at

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the end of the day, it's
a name who cares. Yeah, yeah,

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I love that approach because we have
this to this day. I actually

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I want to throw a few things
actual real quick. For one, I'm

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using two workbooks on the regular,
your book and then Cabala Magic and the

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Great Work of Self Transformation by Liam
Thomas Christopher. I want to say,

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what's interesting is you're you both had
a very similar approach in the beginning,

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which was you're going to get what
you put in and you can do it

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at your own pace. And we
have an entire bookshelf full of these self

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transformation books or books that are you
know, to approach the topic, and

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none of them, yeah, none
of them really say like, do this

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at your own pace. It's if
you don't, if you don't do it

285
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at this level and you're not here
in three months, you have to start

286
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all over and you're terrible, and
it's it's it was a very big,

287
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like breadth of fresh air to read
through yours, like, oh, this

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is completely okay to not understand something. It's completely okay to approach it with

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a modern mindset in comparison to I
have to go through three hundred philosophy books,

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figure out who this guy was as
a person and figure out his diet

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on a Tuesday to understand the approach
well from also, and I kind of

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wanted to hear your thoughts on this, Marco. Was that especially connecting to

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the Felamites that we were just talking
about. I feel like the whole point,

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especially after reading through and working through
your manual, is that we're supposed

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to expand upon magic. It's not
setting stone. None of this is setting

296
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stone, and that is something that
we all have to actively work towards bettering.

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It's the new software specifically that is
making me say this is that you

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can't just be stuck on just Crowley. It's not his word, isn't God,

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his word, isn't fact. It's
something to build off of and expand

300
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upon and even in some cases change
if it's no longer useful to the system

301
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as a whole. Yeah, I
mean, like you know, this is

302
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definitely my approach to that, and
I think it's the approach of a lot

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of those work with Crowley system and
so in Telemma and left Mark on Telemict,

304
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I'm thinking Frederi academ thinking of Kenneth
Grant Nemah. You have to remember

305
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also that there is all there's another
side of Telemites out there that really fight

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against this almost like secularization attempts,
in the sense that they really want to

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believe the fairy tale that you know, Crowley was the profit of the Nunion,

308
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which is something I believe, Like, I mean, Crowley was the

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profit of the union, but for
the way I see the term profit,

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it was someone who opened the door
and you know, received messages, try

311
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to decode the messages and left the
door open after he died, right where

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for this the other the other side, the other type of Telemites, which

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suddenly they are the ones that you
tend to find into organize or groups like

314
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or the Temporarientis or the AA.
They really want to believe that Crowley was

315
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Jesus to point out and so because
you know, the idea is that if

316
00:23:02.000 --> 00:23:06.039
Crowley was used to go into and
so it was you know perfect, you

317
00:23:06.119 --> 00:23:08.720
have to like stick to what he
said to the letter, etc. Etc.

318
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Well, if that is true,
then they're not doing you know,

319
00:23:14.880 --> 00:23:18.599
they're not pursuing you know, pointlessness
because you know they have some sort of

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divine right. Um, that's bad. That is there to back their efforts

321
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in in towards spiritual evolution. That
theory is Oh, I'm so sorry.

322
00:23:30.039 --> 00:23:33.880
I was just gonna say that theory
in itself seems to abandon the main mission

323
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of finding your true will exactly.
I mean, that's exactly what I was

324
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going to say, right, Yeah, sorry, I didn't mean to interrupts

325
00:23:42.039 --> 00:23:45.960
you. That's the first thing I
thought of. No, no, But

326
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but you got it. I mean, that's that's precisely it, you know.

327
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Famously, Crowley also said that he
didn't want to father a flock like

328
00:23:52.680 --> 00:23:57.480
literally in his in one of the
famous quotes that you find online. But

329
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fame so you repeated many times that
you didn't want to have to have,

330
00:24:02.440 --> 00:24:08.720
you know, mindless drones after him
and low and be old whenever you forsake

331
00:24:08.839 --> 00:24:18.640
securitism in trying to enshrine absolute religious
religious or ugiosity. If you want,

332
00:24:18.839 --> 00:24:22.319
then what you get you get flox, You get you know, drones,

333
00:24:22.640 --> 00:24:26.480
and you get people that we doubt, you know, a true master guiding

334
00:24:26.519 --> 00:24:30.440
them, even if it's dead.
But you know, like knowing that that

335
00:24:30.559 --> 00:24:33.720
this person was almost like anointed by
the divine. Well, then whatever they

336
00:24:33.759 --> 00:24:38.839
do, it's pointless. Whereby Telemma
is really about recognizing that each one of

337
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us has this divine connection to the
Godhead. Right. Telemma famously says,

338
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you know, every man, every
woman is a star. It's one of

339
00:24:49.880 --> 00:24:56.200
the famous aphorism from the Book of
the Law. This aphorism has been used

340
00:24:56.279 --> 00:25:03.960
multiple times in many ways, and
item believe that this in this phrase implies

341
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that everybody knows their true will from
the very beginning. Everybody is divine from

342
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the very beginning. Then he pretty
much, I don't have to do anything.

343
00:25:11.200 --> 00:25:15.160
You're fine, right, everybody has
the potential. Everybody, regardless of

344
00:25:15.440 --> 00:25:22.279
race, gender, situation in life. You have the potential to strive towards

345
00:25:22.319 --> 00:25:29.720
it. But it's your will,
not Crowe and not you know, other

346
00:25:29.920 --> 00:25:33.480
gurus, not mine, not other
writers. You know. Um, I

347
00:25:33.559 --> 00:25:38.599
like to say that every time I
speak about these subjects, I'm really,

348
00:25:38.680 --> 00:25:42.359
I'm really, I'm not. I'm
not a guru. I'm not. I

349
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really don't like the term teacher really
much. Maybe tutor is better, right,

350
00:25:47.880 --> 00:25:52.359
personal trainer. If you want to
see this as a metaphysical gym,

351
00:25:52.799 --> 00:25:56.039
I can be the person that can
tell you how many reps you have to

352
00:25:56.079 --> 00:26:02.400
do, which machines to use if
you want to build up yourself right,

353
00:26:03.240 --> 00:26:07.480
believe it or not. This my
position, this one that I just communicated.

354
00:26:07.839 --> 00:26:12.720
It's seen as absolutely heretical. Wrong. There must be some sort of

355
00:26:12.960 --> 00:26:18.720
strict hierarchy, there must be masters, there must be you know, annoying

356
00:26:18.759 --> 00:26:22.759
to teachers et. I mean to
me, that's as anti technical as the

357
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tenets of Telemma as it gets.
But hey, what can I say?

358
00:26:26.400 --> 00:26:33.240
Like we really are in the infancy
of this magical philosophy. Next year it

359
00:26:33.279 --> 00:26:36.240
will be one hundred and twenty years
since the reception of the Book of the

360
00:26:36.319 --> 00:26:40.920
Law, which, of course hundred
twenty years from our limited human perspective or

361
00:26:41.240 --> 00:26:45.799
it's a long time. But in
the grand scheme of things, that's what

362
00:26:45.960 --> 00:26:52.359
that's a second right. So if
Telemma will survive as long as Buddhism or

363
00:26:52.440 --> 00:26:56.640
Christianity or Hinduism, I've survived and
time hotel one hundred and twenty years,

364
00:26:56.640 --> 00:27:00.319
it's nothing right, it's dropped about
early. Yeah, I mean, I

365
00:27:00.359 --> 00:27:04.799
study other religions the first underd and
twenty. We barely know what Christians were

366
00:27:04.799 --> 00:27:08.680
doing in the first hundred and twenty
years, right, the Gospels started to

367
00:27:08.680 --> 00:27:15.519
be right to be written down between
forty two hundred years after the alleged death

368
00:27:15.599 --> 00:27:18.839
of Jesus Christ, if he ever
existed as a you know, as as

369
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a real person. I really believe
maybe there were more Jesus christis that,

370
00:27:23.200 --> 00:27:26.599
you know, get conflated into one
individual. But that's maybe for another day.

371
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The point is that, you know, we know that one hundred and

372
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twenty years of Christianity, pretty much
nothing happened, Like a lot of him

373
00:27:33.880 --> 00:27:38.880
fighting happened, a lot of different
ideas were going. Christiani was going many

374
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different directions, and pretty much this
is what episode has been happening here as

375
00:27:42.119 --> 00:27:48.640
well. We will see, I
mean we won't, but in maybe in

376
00:27:48.039 --> 00:27:52.640
two hundred years, it's going to
be interesting where Telemma will be in two

377
00:27:52.799 --> 00:27:56.440
three hundred years, if if if, if it did survive, and so

378
00:27:56.880 --> 00:28:03.599
if the promise of the new Ian
was a true promise, right, something

379
00:28:03.599 --> 00:28:07.319
that eventually manifested itself fully. Um, of course, you know, talking

380
00:28:07.319 --> 00:28:14.359
about Ian's I speak about briefly,
but I guess quite clearly in the book

381
00:28:14.640 --> 00:28:19.880
about what the concept of eonyx is, which really comes from many different uh

382
00:28:21.640 --> 00:28:29.400
precursors maybe in case of Crawley,
the more direct was Darby's dispensionalism, where

383
00:28:29.519 --> 00:28:33.119
pretty much the idea is that you
know, after you know, with each

384
00:28:33.920 --> 00:28:41.039
passing, with the passing of time, new new spiritual laws are enshrined and

385
00:28:41.440 --> 00:28:45.720
shared with humanity, and the new
ways of UM, you know, achieving

386
00:28:45.720 --> 00:28:51.920
spiritual evolution became available. That's what
when I speak about the ion of Horus

387
00:28:52.160 --> 00:28:55.599
or the ion of the child,
or the telemic here I'm speaking about.

388
00:28:56.079 --> 00:29:00.440
You can think of it as you
know, a new operating system that it's

389
00:29:00.480 --> 00:29:07.160
being installed onto the the universe itself, right, and you can always use

390
00:29:07.200 --> 00:29:10.440
all the operating systems, but maybe
if you want to get all the better

391
00:29:11.119 --> 00:29:15.200
UM you know, the best apps
or the best the best programs and whatnot,

392
00:29:15.480 --> 00:29:19.480
you want to use the UM.
The last one. The problem with

393
00:29:19.759 --> 00:29:23.240
you know, with the current overating
systems is they usually they're full of bugs

394
00:29:23.599 --> 00:29:27.279
and those bugs need to be you
know, ironed out over over time.

395
00:29:27.559 --> 00:29:33.559
And that's exactly the problem with Telemma. It's new. It offers you a

396
00:29:33.599 --> 00:29:37.839
lot of new and fancy things to
do if you know how to use it,

397
00:29:37.319 --> 00:29:44.759
but there's a lot of you know, environments and still experimentation that needs

398
00:29:44.799 --> 00:29:48.480
to be go and the bugs that
needs to be squashed out. No.

399
00:29:48.759 --> 00:29:52.240
Absolutely, Now do you think any
of the gate keeping the you have to

400
00:29:52.279 --> 00:29:56.319
be an annointed teacher comes from Crowley
being You know, he did self proclaim

401
00:29:56.319 --> 00:29:59.519
that he was a Magister templi at
the end, meaning for those who maybe

402
00:30:00.039 --> 00:30:03.799
are informed. Basically to my understanding, he's on the same level as the

403
00:30:03.200 --> 00:30:07.240
Secret Chiefs at that point, and
I believe he got there after the Inokian

404
00:30:07.279 --> 00:30:11.079
calls an Algeria. I might be
mixing some of that up, but do

405
00:30:11.160 --> 00:30:12.799
you think that because he was on
this level of the Secret Chiefs, we're

406
00:30:12.839 --> 00:30:17.759
kind of intertwining the the the order
of the Golden Dawn. That's why some

407
00:30:17.759 --> 00:30:19.960
people are saying you have to be
an annointed teacher or else this guy is

408
00:30:19.960 --> 00:30:25.640
just full of shit. Well,
uh long, you know, to answer

409
00:30:25.680 --> 00:30:30.240
your question straightforward, yes, in
the sense that Crowley Krey really did to

410
00:30:30.279 --> 00:30:36.640
believe in um, in the idea
of of this line of initiation that comes

411
00:30:36.839 --> 00:30:41.680
um you know, unbroken from the
ascended masters, right, and the idea

412
00:30:41.720 --> 00:30:48.880
of the ascended Masters comes from theosophy, and theosophy got this idea from Hinduism

413
00:30:48.000 --> 00:30:53.000
pretty much. Okay, the idea
where you have like the the avatars of

414
00:30:53.079 --> 00:30:57.599
the of you know, Ava Kishvara, which is you know, this um

415
00:30:57.680 --> 00:31:04.200
almost like this guide of humanity that
in times always comes back in different incarnations

416
00:31:04.240 --> 00:31:11.839
to guide humanity to spiritual evolution.
These ideas get filtered into the also,

417
00:31:11.920 --> 00:31:15.240
you get filtered to the Golden Down, gets filtered into Curley. Curley really

418
00:31:15.240 --> 00:31:21.720
did believe these things. You're right, he achieved the grade of Magister Temple

419
00:31:22.759 --> 00:31:27.039
after the receiving Libert four hundred and
eighteen, or the Vision and the Voice

420
00:31:27.160 --> 00:31:33.240
in Busada, in the desert of
Algeria, with Victor Neuburg undertaking, you

421
00:31:33.279 --> 00:31:41.839
know, extensive sexomagical operations, a
lot of drugs. That's where the incredible

422
00:31:41.920 --> 00:31:44.960
visions come from. By the way, obviously, you know when you are

423
00:31:45.000 --> 00:31:49.799
in a heightened state of consciousness,
deep transits, and maybe you're also ingesting

424
00:31:51.160 --> 00:31:55.680
psychedelics, that's where you get those
crazy visions that that really I mean,

425
00:31:55.720 --> 00:31:59.160
And it was great because it was
able to translate those into the page.

426
00:31:59.599 --> 00:32:04.599
Now, that wasn't even the highest
grade the Cruley claimed for himself. He

427
00:32:04.640 --> 00:32:07.279
claimed to have gone further, like
in the in the Scheme of the grades

428
00:32:07.279 --> 00:32:13.839
of the Golden Dome, which are
mirroring the map, the map of reality

429
00:32:13.880 --> 00:32:17.880
given by the Tree of Life over
Medicabala. You have, well you have

430
00:32:19.079 --> 00:32:24.119
ten sef ten visible sefarot and one
invisible sefera. That is that, and

431
00:32:24.160 --> 00:32:29.039
then of course each grade is mapped
onto one of those sefarots. Well,

432
00:32:29.079 --> 00:32:32.160
he claimed to have gone past Bina, which is you know, the sea

433
00:32:32.279 --> 00:32:37.039
attributed to the Magistra Temple or Master
of the Temple, and then he went

434
00:32:37.119 --> 00:32:42.200
into Hochma as Amegus and even took
a tir as an epsisimus. Now,

435
00:32:43.680 --> 00:32:50.039
if you ask me, if you
really understand what it means to achieve those

436
00:32:50.160 --> 00:32:55.640
levels of consciousness, it's impossible for
anybody who's embodied in a body. Sorry

437
00:32:55.720 --> 00:33:04.039
for the obvious recursive there, but
if you're embodied, you cannot really be

438
00:33:04.200 --> 00:33:08.400
a magister template because the magister template
are the ascended masters, are the ones

439
00:33:08.400 --> 00:33:13.920
who left this mortal coil behind,
and when they come back to guide humanity,

440
00:33:13.960 --> 00:33:17.880
they come back in um in subtle
forms. Right, yeah, exactly

441
00:33:20.240 --> 00:33:22.440
in that. You know, that's
the same for a magus, that the

442
00:33:22.519 --> 00:33:25.960
same even even more for an absisimus. So you know, some people will

443
00:33:27.079 --> 00:33:30.319
argue that the grades of the AA, and so the ones that Croa was

444
00:33:30.440 --> 00:33:35.359
using, well they almos means that, you know, when you get to

445
00:33:35.359 --> 00:33:38.839
a higher level of adapt tod so
you've known your you're known your true will,

446
00:33:38.920 --> 00:33:43.720
and achieve the knowledge and conversation of
the hoy Garden angel in Tifferet,

447
00:33:44.119 --> 00:33:46.200
you become an adept. Then you
have a little bit more work to do,

448
00:33:47.160 --> 00:33:51.960
because in Tiffert you're perfectly balanced.
But then you have to unbalance yourself

449
00:33:52.000 --> 00:33:58.759
by achieving you know, and then
cassatt on the tree of life. From

450
00:33:58.799 --> 00:34:01.519
that point onward, if if you
keep you know, working, you can

451
00:34:01.680 --> 00:34:07.519
have glimpses of higher degrees and grades, and you can embody them, but

452
00:34:07.680 --> 00:34:10.800
to truly embody, you know,
to truly achieve them while still embodied,

453
00:34:10.880 --> 00:34:14.920
I don't know. So, for
instance, what I'm telling you sorry for

454
00:34:15.000 --> 00:34:19.559
the tour, it's that I don't
know. If Crowley was a magister templary

455
00:34:19.760 --> 00:34:22.400
right, he definitely claimed to be. He claimed to be more than that.

456
00:34:22.119 --> 00:34:28.719
He was most certainly a very high
adept on adaptus exemptus. That's the

457
00:34:28.840 --> 00:34:31.280
term of maybe even further in the
in the in the term of the AA,

458
00:34:31.519 --> 00:34:37.840
which is the magical order that he
founded as the continuation of the Golden

459
00:34:37.920 --> 00:34:42.000
Down. He was a babe of
the Abyss. That is, you know,

460
00:34:42.079 --> 00:34:49.280
somebody who's like ready to jump into
the abyss. But a lot of

461
00:34:49.320 --> 00:34:53.960
people make a big fuss out of
this, which is so interesting to me

462
00:34:54.079 --> 00:35:00.760
because it's how we get everyone online
in this day and age to claim that

463
00:35:00.840 --> 00:35:05.440
they can jump the abyss from the
get go. When I first started my

464
00:35:06.039 --> 00:35:10.199
magical path, it was made very
clear to me that you would have to

465
00:35:10.280 --> 00:35:17.400
work for many years to balance the
elements, get to know who you are,

466
00:35:17.639 --> 00:35:22.760
how you work in correlation with the
universe around you, and then after

467
00:35:22.880 --> 00:35:25.679
many years of work, you possibly
would be able to you know, have

468
00:35:25.880 --> 00:35:31.159
enough information and knowledge and practis to
invoke your whole yar dean angel and establish

469
00:35:31.480 --> 00:35:37.800
conversation with the whole your Dean Angel, and so with there you help then

470
00:35:37.840 --> 00:35:43.159
discovering your true will, and that
would be like a big deal. And

471
00:35:43.199 --> 00:35:47.239
then maybe you would then spend the
rest of your life getting ready to jump

472
00:35:49.280 --> 00:35:54.679
across the abyss. What happened in
the twenty five almost more than twenty five

473
00:35:54.719 --> 00:36:00.119
years, like we're actually reaching my
almost thirtieth year. I tend to not

474
00:36:00.280 --> 00:36:02.719
think about the ears of Covid as
real ears. But hey, they did

475
00:36:02.679 --> 00:36:08.800
it happen? You know, almost
thirty years later you jump online and everybody

476
00:36:08.840 --> 00:36:15.679
is a magister template. Everybody got
courses or books on how to cross the

477
00:36:15.679 --> 00:36:19.000
abyss. There because the abyss is
just the dark night of the soul.

478
00:36:20.000 --> 00:36:22.599
You just have pretty much like to
to face your demons and you're done.

479
00:36:23.360 --> 00:36:28.559
That couldn't be further from the truth. It's, you know, the experience

480
00:36:28.559 --> 00:36:35.159
of the abyss. From my understanding, it's the absolute destruction of duality,

481
00:36:35.559 --> 00:36:39.239
and the absolute understanding and understanding is
the name of Bena, which is the

482
00:36:40.000 --> 00:36:45.119
sefid that you reach on the other
side of the abyss, the understanding of

483
00:36:45.199 --> 00:36:51.039
non duality. How how can everybody
just do it by reading a book?

484
00:36:51.039 --> 00:36:55.079
It's beyond my understanding. Maybe I
don't get it right, but possibly it

485
00:36:55.159 --> 00:37:00.199
all boils down to the fact that
everybody wants to be Crowlate. Everybody wants

486
00:37:00.239 --> 00:37:04.920
to emulate the master. Everybody wants
to everybody wants to be, in a

487
00:37:05.000 --> 00:37:10.159
way the superman or the Ubermansch of
nietzchean Um, you know, ancestry.

488
00:37:10.199 --> 00:37:15.679
If you want. The problem is
that you know you can want these things

489
00:37:15.880 --> 00:37:21.039
and that's absolutely fine. But to
want something and be something, you know,

490
00:37:21.079 --> 00:37:25.519
there there's an abyss behind the two. So I really wish again that

491
00:37:25.599 --> 00:37:30.480
we could get to a point where
people they are generally interested in magic,

492
00:37:30.119 --> 00:37:37.760
can be happy with their own progress. Maybe magic should they maybe should focus

493
00:37:37.760 --> 00:37:42.320
on magic being helping them into living
fuller lives, maybe being you know,

494
00:37:42.480 --> 00:37:49.199
more um aware of the synchronicities around
them and making sense of them as we

495
00:37:49.280 --> 00:37:52.519
dout, we dout you know,
going into rabbit holes just for the sake

496
00:37:52.559 --> 00:37:54.639
of rabbit holes, which can be
all sorts of problems as well. I

497
00:37:54.639 --> 00:37:59.639
mean that is maybe those that is
the abyss as well, because the abyss

498
00:37:59.760 --> 00:38:05.119
is this persion, is lack of
focus, is lack of um pointedness in

499
00:38:05.159 --> 00:38:08.159
life. But in fact, you
know, it's alway. So that's what

500
00:38:08.239 --> 00:38:12.280
I hope. I hope that you
know, people get into magic without without

501
00:38:12.280 --> 00:38:14.960
trying to emulate Crawley, without saying, okay, you know, like I

502
00:38:15.039 --> 00:38:19.840
must be a magister template, I
must be an adopt in doing. Every

503
00:38:19.880 --> 00:38:25.199
time I teaches, I teach these
classes, I always say with a lot

504
00:38:25.280 --> 00:38:29.000
of like, with a lot of
size from the from the from the people

505
00:38:29.039 --> 00:38:35.719
at each these things too that maybe
one person in a thousand will become an

506
00:38:35.679 --> 00:38:38.000
adept. But when we're talking about
people a crossing the abysse, we're talking

507
00:38:38.000 --> 00:38:42.800
about one in a billion. I
mean, that's that's the gulf of difference.

508
00:38:42.880 --> 00:38:52.679
That's that's the the absolute of that
specific moment. Why why worrying about

509
00:38:52.760 --> 00:38:58.719
something that It's almost like, you
know people that always keep um playing the

510
00:38:58.719 --> 00:39:02.360
the roulette or the casinos or the
lotto and lose money on money and money

511
00:39:02.400 --> 00:39:06.760
money because they will win one day. What's your odds you're going to win?

512
00:39:06.920 --> 00:39:08.639
Right? Hang invest that money and
do something else, right, I

513
00:39:08.679 --> 00:39:14.199
mean, but maybe that's me.
Yeah, I don't know if that answer

514
00:39:14.239 --> 00:39:17.599
your question. I definitely went on
attention. They definitely did. I just

515
00:39:17.679 --> 00:39:22.119
kind of wanted to add a little
bit to that conversation before we drove into

516
00:39:22.480 --> 00:39:27.199
I do want to speak about the
Holy Guardian Angel more on depth, if

517
00:39:27.239 --> 00:39:32.599
you're comfortable with that. But we
live in a society now that definitely has

518
00:39:34.039 --> 00:39:39.079
way more instant gratification than we have
ever seen in human history at period,

519
00:39:39.639 --> 00:39:44.239
and so I think a lot of
times when we see these influencers, we

520
00:39:44.320 --> 00:39:49.519
see people who are adepts or claim
to be masters of their temple or what

521
00:39:49.639 --> 00:39:55.559
have you. I think that it
comes with the fact that they are trying

522
00:39:55.719 --> 00:40:01.599
to get the instant gratification crowd to
come to their teachings, to come buy

523
00:40:01.639 --> 00:40:06.960
their book or come do whatever with
them that they are, whatever their artillior

524
00:40:07.000 --> 00:40:10.840
motive is. I think that's the
crowd they're adhering to. Now, how

525
00:40:13.159 --> 00:40:20.920
absolutely how Thelama evolves with the fact
that everyone wants instant graphication. Now,

526
00:40:21.280 --> 00:40:25.119
I think you can get instant graphication
from performing your rituals that you have,

527
00:40:25.320 --> 00:40:30.360
and not just yours, but just
Thelomatic rituals in general. You do get

528
00:40:30.400 --> 00:40:35.639
instant graphication if you pay attention to
how you feel, but it's not the

529
00:40:35.719 --> 00:40:37.800
kind that people are used to,
and I think that's what makes Thelama stand

530
00:40:37.800 --> 00:40:43.599
out. But that's also what makes
Thelma a risk and the survival and the

531
00:40:43.639 --> 00:40:49.400
continuation of this for lack of better
term, religion. No, I think

532
00:40:49.440 --> 00:40:53.400
you absolutely nailed it. First of
all, you know, whenever you get

533
00:40:53.400 --> 00:41:00.480
people marketing their courses or their books, you're right like the market the marketing

534
00:41:00.519 --> 00:41:05.320
employees or the marketing hooks is all
about you know, do this and you'll

535
00:41:05.360 --> 00:41:12.199
get something right away. Um.
Recently I've seen I'm not gonna name names,

536
00:41:12.199 --> 00:41:14.039
but I've seen people you know,
marketing, you know, like in

537
00:41:14.159 --> 00:41:16.880
order to get in touch with your
archangel, these archangel here's a Siegel.

538
00:41:17.159 --> 00:41:22.880
Look at the Siegel. You're gonna
be fine. I shudder because you know

539
00:41:22.960 --> 00:41:25.199
that's that's that's the little snake oil
to me. Like, but the reality

540
00:41:25.280 --> 00:41:32.039
there is that what I noticed by
rounding the community online that a run for

541
00:41:32.039 --> 00:41:39.440
the last for almost four years now, very few people ever engage with magic,

542
00:41:39.800 --> 00:41:45.280
right, like active actual magic.
Yeah, exactly, like you know,

543
00:41:45.519 --> 00:41:49.199
not just reading the book, not
just listening to me speak about magic,

544
00:41:49.599 --> 00:41:52.519
not maybe watching a lecture, but
actually say, okay, now I'm

545
00:41:52.559 --> 00:41:59.239
going to turn everything off and try
and see what it's like to do a

546
00:41:59.320 --> 00:42:02.239
pentagram usual, which you know,
one one of the simplest rituals out there.

547
00:42:02.960 --> 00:42:07.800
Um. I can tell you it's
maybe less than five percent in my

548
00:42:07.840 --> 00:42:13.320
experience, and I would argue that, you know, um, in my

549
00:42:13.400 --> 00:42:17.039
community, for the most I was
able to attract very good people, very

550
00:42:17.079 --> 00:42:22.360
you know, harness seekers, honest
seekers, right, but even of those

551
00:42:22.400 --> 00:42:29.079
honest seekers, five percent became actual
magicians. Um. You know, I

552
00:42:29.440 --> 00:42:31.400
you know, before we were recording, we were discussing how you know,

553
00:42:32.000 --> 00:42:37.360
both you guys and I you know, started getting more involved into this after

554
00:42:37.559 --> 00:42:43.800
helier right, that really really acted
as a as a catalyst for bringing magic

555
00:42:43.920 --> 00:42:49.400
to to to the masses really in
the last few years. Um. You

556
00:42:49.440 --> 00:42:53.079
know, when I spoke at Phenomena
on two in September twenty twenty, UM,

557
00:42:53.239 --> 00:42:58.280
I got a huge search of patron
subscribers and thank you all, if

558
00:42:58.280 --> 00:43:04.400
you're listening, I really appreciate your
support, even if if you eventually disappeared

559
00:43:04.559 --> 00:43:07.599
very fast, because what you know, what I know this is that a

560
00:43:07.599 --> 00:43:10.119
lot of people signed in and then
they realize, oh, wait a second,

561
00:43:10.719 --> 00:43:15.239
I have to do magic, like
I have to take out of my

562
00:43:15.320 --> 00:43:22.000
day exactly just to meditate, to
learn to vocalize, to vibrate, to

563
00:43:22.320 --> 00:43:29.599
raise five percent and maybe I'm maybe
I'm being very generous with that percentage.

564
00:43:30.039 --> 00:43:34.039
So the point is, you know, to go back to the point we're

565
00:43:34.119 --> 00:43:37.800
making at the beginning, is that
like if if people never do magic,

566
00:43:37.840 --> 00:43:42.760
they'll never realize that they can get
that that the gratification they seek. But

567
00:43:42.800 --> 00:43:45.599
they have to do it, like
they have to just at least, you

568
00:43:45.639 --> 00:43:49.719
know, do the exercise, I
mean, believe it or not. This

569
00:43:49.800 --> 00:43:53.199
is the same kind of a percentage
that you find in people that you know

570
00:43:53.239 --> 00:44:00.719
after the winter holidays and Christmas,
they put on wait and they say I'm

571
00:44:00.760 --> 00:44:01.440
going to go to the gym,
and they sign up to the gym,

572
00:44:01.719 --> 00:44:07.519
and then of the people don't go
to the gym, who sticks is only

573
00:44:07.519 --> 00:44:15.000
the five percent. So the problem
is that since magic is not um,

574
00:44:15.159 --> 00:44:19.440
it's not an exact science, and
I argue, maybe it's not a science

575
00:44:19.480 --> 00:44:23.920
at all. It's magic. Uh, you can you can sell people fake

576
00:44:24.519 --> 00:44:30.880
um, you know, instant gratification
because you can sell them this idea that

577
00:44:30.079 --> 00:44:35.920
you know, you can watch a
sigil and say some gibberish and something will

578
00:44:35.920 --> 00:44:40.079
happen. Because what usually what happens
pretty much, I guess you'll you noticed

579
00:44:40.159 --> 00:44:45.920
it is that then you get you
know, almost like control groups around sorry,

580
00:44:46.119 --> 00:44:51.519
support groups around this this approach,
right, you get forums that speak

581
00:44:51.559 --> 00:44:57.239
about how people that talk to each
other about how this technique was revolutionary and

582
00:44:57.360 --> 00:45:00.480
worked. And I'm telling you this
because I got him by I did into

583
00:45:00.480 --> 00:45:01.440
one of this first. Like I
said, I'm not going to name names,

584
00:45:01.599 --> 00:45:07.400
but I got invited into the forms
of a series of very popular books

585
00:45:07.400 --> 00:45:13.320
written by folks that clearly are using
pseudonyms, and I'm not going to say

586
00:45:13.360 --> 00:45:15.639
more. And I always I read
one of this book, I did a

587
00:45:15.679 --> 00:45:20.000
review for one of these books,
and I was like, I don't understand

588
00:45:20.480 --> 00:45:24.239
why you have this has been clearly
a commercial success. I don't get it

589
00:45:24.280 --> 00:45:27.920
because if you do, if you
do these things, nothing will happen.

590
00:45:28.239 --> 00:45:31.320
But Daniel, I was invited into
this Facebook group with thousands of people,

591
00:45:31.960 --> 00:45:37.719
and I can tell you none,
none could tell me what did, what

592
00:45:37.760 --> 00:45:43.119
they were experiencing it. Their experience
of the whole yer Dan Angel was nothing

593
00:45:43.360 --> 00:45:47.239
like what I experienced or what other
people experienced that I could prove that they

594
00:45:47.239 --> 00:45:52.960
went through the experience the correct way
of doing it, and in general what

595
00:45:52.119 --> 00:45:55.400
Crowley says that it did the experience
of the whole yer Dan Angel is But

596
00:45:55.440 --> 00:46:00.719
it doesn't matter anymore because you have
get these thousands of people talking to themselves

597
00:46:00.360 --> 00:46:07.199
that they had something. And I
think that's a big problem out there because

598
00:46:07.440 --> 00:46:14.199
it's how can you tell somebody your
experience is not real? It's very difficult,

599
00:46:14.280 --> 00:46:19.320
right in the sense that maybe maybe
you also shouldn't in the sense that

600
00:46:20.039 --> 00:46:22.119
like think about it, like who
who are you? Who am I to

601
00:46:22.119 --> 00:46:28.480
come to anybody yeah and say hey, you know like that that so I

602
00:46:28.559 --> 00:46:34.119
elected to just not engage anymore.
But I can tell you, I know

603
00:46:34.760 --> 00:46:38.320
that these people are having no experiences. They're just convincing themselves. And now,

604
00:46:38.599 --> 00:46:45.239
when you say the experiences, are
you saying like Theelluma related experiences like

605
00:46:45.599 --> 00:46:49.039
with a Holy Garden Angel? Are
you saying magic in general, like let's

606
00:46:49.079 --> 00:46:53.159
say the other branches who do and
voodoo and other things like that. In

607
00:46:53.199 --> 00:46:58.079
this particular case, I'm talking about
the Holy Garden Angel experience. Okay,

608
00:46:58.119 --> 00:47:01.159
like that, that particular experience.
When it comes to magic as a you

609
00:47:01.199 --> 00:47:07.039
know, as in a wider uh
spectrum of the term, it's very it's

610
00:47:07.159 --> 00:47:10.119
very hard because you know, I
can I can only speak of what I

611
00:47:10.440 --> 00:47:15.920
am and I'm familiar with, and
of course I am. Even if I

612
00:47:15.000 --> 00:47:20.440
dabbled a little bit in hoodoo,
I'm not an expert um. Even if

613
00:47:20.480 --> 00:47:24.079
I dabbled a little bit and maybe
more than doubled in what's cooled like cool

614
00:47:24.119 --> 00:47:29.599
to Sabbati and so Sabatic witchcraft,
I'm not an expert um. But then

615
00:47:29.639 --> 00:47:34.079
again, who's the expert with this
one? Stab topics? Because you know,

616
00:47:34.119 --> 00:47:37.880
think about it right, Um,
either you are exactly you live in

617
00:47:38.000 --> 00:47:44.000
UM in a very specific kind of
culture where you do have experts like you

618
00:47:44.000 --> 00:47:49.119
know, think of I think I'm
thinking of Haiti right where boo boo doo

619
00:47:49.639 --> 00:47:53.480
or voodoo boo. It's difficult to
pronounce it as well, especially but you

620
00:47:53.519 --> 00:47:58.840
know voo doo. Okay, that's
the kind of pronunciation. Um, it

621
00:47:58.920 --> 00:48:02.880
is so real, it's such like
it's it's a religion that it's so much

622
00:48:04.039 --> 00:48:09.119
lived by by Haitians. Where you
know, a mambo or hung gun will

623
00:48:09.199 --> 00:48:15.840
be experts because they are they represent
a specific role in the society, right.

624
00:48:16.199 --> 00:48:23.000
But outside of that um the culture, everybody can call themselves a hung

625
00:48:23.079 --> 00:48:29.440
gun and maybe they went through to
the cancer initiation. But if how can

626
00:48:29.480 --> 00:48:31.639
I I can even be sure if
I'm not part of that culture as well?

627
00:48:31.840 --> 00:48:38.119
Right, So long story short,
I will never say that, you

628
00:48:38.159 --> 00:48:44.280
know, anybody's experience is not real, but I can tell you that from

629
00:48:44.440 --> 00:48:49.719
what I can I can ascertain from
from where I stand, there's a lot

630
00:48:49.840 --> 00:48:59.039
of um seeking for instant gratification on
things that are absolutely you know, as

631
00:48:59.079 --> 00:49:04.440
far as possible from providing instant gratification. But it almost doesn't matter anymore,

632
00:49:04.719 --> 00:49:09.280
because you get thousands and thousands and
thousands of people online that have been convinced

633
00:49:09.320 --> 00:49:14.239
that all they needed to do was
to buy a book back to what we're

634
00:49:14.239 --> 00:49:19.320
seeing very cheap pipe paperback on Amazon, and they would have the experience,

635
00:49:19.800 --> 00:49:22.559
and how do you you know,
maybe in many way, in many ways,

636
00:49:22.960 --> 00:49:29.320
that's a testament that these people did
a very good magic spell in the

637
00:49:29.360 --> 00:49:36.079
sense that they cast a very you
know, enduring glamor. But it's glamour,

638
00:49:36.239 --> 00:49:40.119
it's not truth, and it's a
big problem if you ask me.

639
00:49:40.239 --> 00:49:43.800
But I don't have the solution,
and I don't think I don't think there's

640
00:49:43.800 --> 00:49:47.400
going to be a solution. What
I think is that those who are truly

641
00:49:47.679 --> 00:49:54.039
motivated to go deeper in their spiritual
evolution and maybe having really want to have

642
00:49:54.079 --> 00:49:58.760
the expense of the whole year than
Angel, they will find their ways.

643
00:49:58.800 --> 00:50:05.039
Even if they started with this practices
that for me are completely pointless, eventually

644
00:50:05.079 --> 00:50:07.400
they realize, hey, wait a
second. For instance, Crowe speaks of

645
00:50:07.440 --> 00:50:13.760
the whole year than Angel as in
terms very similar to what is described as

646
00:50:13.840 --> 00:50:17.360
samadi in yoga, So you know, union with God, and I don't

647
00:50:17.360 --> 00:50:22.840
feel any union with God I'm not
getting any noses out of this. Um.

648
00:50:22.880 --> 00:50:28.079
It just something that felt good for
you for a weekend, and that's

649
00:50:28.119 --> 00:50:34.199
it. Maybe they will, they
will go and seek deeper ways of maybe

650
00:50:34.280 --> 00:50:37.800
truer ways of having this experience,
or maybe not. You know, at

651
00:50:37.840 --> 00:50:43.480
the end of the day, remember
five percent. I mean that's my experience.

652
00:50:43.480 --> 00:50:46.880
Only five percent of the people that
signed up to everything I've ever done

653
00:50:47.679 --> 00:50:54.320
are still doing magic to this day. It's a bit sad. Well.

654
00:50:54.400 --> 00:50:57.920
One thing I do want to add
is the mantra that we really have for

655
00:50:58.000 --> 00:51:01.559
tails in the dark. And one
thing that we've seen across all realms of

656
00:51:01.599 --> 00:51:07.039
weird, whether that be magic,
whether that be UFOs, ghost goblins,

657
00:51:07.079 --> 00:51:10.159
you name it, is that there
are no experts. Now, while you

658
00:51:10.199 --> 00:51:17.840
said that there are, um,
there's definitely societal roles that experts have a

659
00:51:19.000 --> 00:51:22.800
very large hand at play. And
then do you have a very important role

660
00:51:22.840 --> 00:51:29.920
when it comes to understanding anything that
cannot be air quotes proven by science.

661
00:51:30.119 --> 00:51:32.079
There are no experts, We're all
learning. The second that you claim that

662
00:51:32.119 --> 00:51:36.239
you are an expert in this field, to me is the day that you

663
00:51:36.239 --> 00:51:39.440
stop being a student. You stop
learning. You don't respect the experience that

664
00:51:39.480 --> 00:51:44.800
you're going to be given from high
strangeness, from magic, from thelema,

665
00:51:44.880 --> 00:51:50.119
from whatever you're learning. Yeah,
no, I agree with you. If

666
00:51:50.159 --> 00:51:53.519
I go to Ahiti, I will
listen to a hungan or a mambo because

667
00:51:53.559 --> 00:52:00.519
they are experts. But again it's
it's cultural. And yeah, our western

668
00:52:00.559 --> 00:52:09.039
wold there can be any experts on
these topics because it's there's no true scientific

669
00:52:09.079 --> 00:52:13.320
way of proving it or any of
this. So data is that, like

670
00:52:13.400 --> 00:52:16.039
you want to keep an open mind. Again, though there can be some

671
00:52:16.119 --> 00:52:22.440
telltale signs of somebody who's just maybe
wasting their time. Oh again, it's

672
00:52:22.519 --> 00:52:24.760
it's down to them. They'll they'll
find, they'll find, they'll they'll find

673
00:52:24.760 --> 00:52:29.360
it for themselves. And there's absolutely
people out there. One thing that we

674
00:52:29.440 --> 00:52:34.360
do specify when we say that is
there's absolutely people out there who know more

675
00:52:34.400 --> 00:52:37.199
than us. Like I don't know
everything by a long shot, neither does

676
00:52:37.199 --> 00:52:42.199
Bob, and neither does Marco.
But Marco definitely knows a lot more than

677
00:52:42.239 --> 00:52:46.159
I do about Thelma. Therefore I
can learn from Marco. But that doesn't

678
00:52:46.199 --> 00:52:51.719
mean that Marco's Marco thinks he's higher
than thou, you know what I mean?

679
00:52:51.960 --> 00:52:58.800
Like it's it's a very um,
delicate but important balance that I feel

680
00:52:58.800 --> 00:53:00.719
that you carry and that we carry
as well as we go on and learn

681
00:53:00.760 --> 00:53:07.400
about all different time excuse me,
all different types of high strangeness. There

682
00:53:07.480 --> 00:53:12.960
is something about magic in general,
something that always it's, uh, it's

683
00:53:12.960 --> 00:53:15.960
tech problems, it's nausea, it's
something. It's it's always something we when

684
00:53:15.039 --> 00:53:17.880
we have someone like Marco or Alan
Greenfield on the podcast. Yeah, man,

685
00:53:17.920 --> 00:53:23.239
I'm gonna have to cut that.
Uh maybe maybe, Um, Yeah,

686
00:53:23.280 --> 00:53:25.880
I don't know. You told me
this before. It's it's it's kind

687
00:53:25.880 --> 00:53:29.760
of weird, to be fair,
it's weird. I'm telling you. It's

688
00:53:29.840 --> 00:53:34.599
every single time we've done three interviews
with Allen. Yeah, more than that,

689
00:53:34.639 --> 00:53:37.840
because we've done video videos with him, and we've talked with him off

690
00:53:37.960 --> 00:53:42.119
air personally, and oh my gosh, every time we have some kind of

691
00:53:42.159 --> 00:53:45.880
issue, we get sick. We've
gotten sick before. Um, to the

692
00:53:45.920 --> 00:53:51.559
point where Bob interview by himself it's
must be Gramleans or something like that.

693
00:53:51.719 --> 00:53:53.400
Yeah, I don't know. Well, I do want to kind of build

694
00:53:53.440 --> 00:53:58.760
off what you guys were discussing.
I think the placebo effect in the magical

695
00:53:58.760 --> 00:54:04.079
community is massive. Um, because
we were recently looking into the steps for

696
00:54:04.119 --> 00:54:07.559
an on crossing ritual, just something
you know, very basic. Everyone has

697
00:54:07.559 --> 00:54:10.519
their own methodology for un crossing.
And then it goes even deeper to well

698
00:54:10.519 --> 00:54:15.159
Marco's oils that he sells it's the
best for un crossing. Without his oils,

699
00:54:15.280 --> 00:54:19.599
you're only half wasting. You're doing
you're own crossing, and it's it's

700
00:54:19.639 --> 00:54:22.280
really wild. And then the other
thing I want to you kind of touch

701
00:54:22.320 --> 00:54:25.760
on this earlier, but the psychedelic
aspect of Thelma, because you kind of

702
00:54:25.760 --> 00:54:30.760
discuss how can you really be an
ascended master and still uh embodying the mortal

703
00:54:30.760 --> 00:54:34.519
plane. Well, I don't know
how familiar you are with Terrence mckennum,

704
00:54:34.599 --> 00:54:37.880
but I recently listened he I'll have
to send you this clip where he discusses

705
00:54:38.119 --> 00:54:42.480
he took a DMT trip for those
who are an unfamiliar to stemethyl triple mean

706
00:54:42.559 --> 00:54:46.360
and it's an extremely potent psychedelic and
it lasts four to fifteen minutes. It

707
00:54:46.360 --> 00:54:51.440
depends on the set setting in the
first a million other factors. But he

708
00:54:52.079 --> 00:54:54.599
you know, this was on a
magical conversation he was having and he describes

709
00:54:54.760 --> 00:55:00.760
meeting these uh, these other worldly
elves basically, and he says one of

710
00:55:00.760 --> 00:55:05.320
the machine that's that's what he calls
them. Yeah, so he's discussed he's

711
00:55:05.320 --> 00:55:09.320
talking to these machine elves who are
vibrating, and then we apply the law

712
00:55:09.360 --> 00:55:15.320
of vibration. We start to apply
some of the more well known hermetic lasses.

713
00:55:15.320 --> 00:55:17.840
Okay, well they're singing things into
existence. Then they're jumping into his

714
00:55:17.960 --> 00:55:22.159
body. He can feel their presence
through the vibrations. I think when you

715
00:55:22.199 --> 00:55:25.159
factor in the psychedelics, you can
kind of start to see how someone may

716
00:55:25.199 --> 00:55:29.679
be able to reach that level of
sended master on the mortal plane. But

717
00:55:29.760 --> 00:55:32.599
it's there's no psychedelic trip that's the
exact same for two people. And that's

718
00:55:32.599 --> 00:55:37.519
where it's a there's no psychedelic trip
that's the same between the same person from

719
00:55:37.559 --> 00:55:38.920
trip to trip now, and that's
that's where I mean, you can get

720
00:55:38.920 --> 00:55:44.599
difficult to when you get into,
you know, Crowley's drug usage, you

721
00:55:44.639 --> 00:55:45.840
can kind of start to see,
But then you can also approach from the

722
00:55:45.920 --> 00:55:49.719
other side of well, he was
a drug addict and that's why he was

723
00:55:49.760 --> 00:55:52.000
thinking the things that he was thinking. Well, you know what, let

724
00:55:52.119 --> 00:55:54.480
let me let me address a couple
of things here. First of all,

725
00:55:54.639 --> 00:56:00.320
I would like to say that Cruley
was a drug user to cool him an

726
00:56:00.320 --> 00:56:01.960
addict in the sense that yeah,
I mean it was addicted to a series

727
00:56:02.119 --> 00:56:07.119
of drugs, mostly because at the
time that's what doctors prescribe to people.

728
00:56:07.519 --> 00:56:12.920
It was the doctors that get people
addictions going, because you know, if

729
00:56:12.960 --> 00:56:15.119
you if you felt ill, well, here's some cocaine for you. That

730
00:56:15.239 --> 00:56:21.199
was it was, it was,
it was, it was definitely, it

731
00:56:21.280 --> 00:56:27.199
was definitely addicted to a series of
things. But famously he also wrote Confessions

732
00:56:27.239 --> 00:56:31.639
of a Drug Field, which was
his like strange out of by almost pseudo

733
00:56:31.639 --> 00:56:38.920
autobiographical way of describing his attempts to
get rid of all these addictions, even

734
00:56:38.960 --> 00:56:43.840
if at the time he didn't need
to because it was part of, um,

735
00:56:44.199 --> 00:56:46.079
you know, of the way medicine
was administered at the time. Right.

736
00:56:46.960 --> 00:56:50.760
That's just just like a little thing
on Kroe that you know, not

737
00:56:50.800 --> 00:56:53.440
to say that I never because people
tend to say, especially in telemic circle,

738
00:56:53.639 --> 00:56:58.119
people tend to see me as the
kroa bascher. So for once I

739
00:56:58.159 --> 00:57:02.800
defended him. Um. Also,
like what you mentioned about, you know,

740
00:57:02.840 --> 00:57:07.800
the h the psychedelics and whatnot.
I mean I took the DMT come

741
00:57:07.960 --> 00:57:10.440
several times, and I don't know
if you know, like you have to

742
00:57:10.440 --> 00:57:15.679
smoke it and I don't smoke.
So it was a very terrible experience.

743
00:57:15.280 --> 00:57:23.199
Yeah, harsh experience. And I
had very visual um experiences and I did

744
00:57:23.199 --> 00:57:27.239
meet this. It is very true, like you get there, you it's

745
00:57:27.239 --> 00:57:32.360
almost like your visuals um become very
strange out of sudden and almost like you're

746
00:57:32.400 --> 00:57:37.400
somewhere else, but you really like
you just go somewhere inside your head and

747
00:57:37.440 --> 00:57:42.039
there, you know, I could
reliably find the same creatures all the time,

748
00:57:42.079 --> 00:57:45.320
and like like McKennon was saying,
like there was there wasn't really like

749
00:57:45.360 --> 00:57:51.280
any any spoken language, was more
like a vibration consciousness exchange and things like

750
00:57:51.320 --> 00:57:55.559
that. Um. This these experiences
you know with DMT and you know with

751
00:57:55.719 --> 00:58:04.360
LSD and other psychedelics true in my
life. I ended up wondering if these

752
00:58:04.440 --> 00:58:12.760
tools are really needed to go deeper
with magical practices. Um. There is

753
00:58:12.840 --> 00:58:20.000
a very interesting academic paper called The
Cactus and the Beast. I don't remember

754
00:58:20.159 --> 00:58:24.679
the you know, the the PhD
candidate, but I guess he's a doctor

755
00:58:24.719 --> 00:58:30.239
now that wrote it. Trying to
remember him Patrick something. Anyway, The

756
00:58:30.320 --> 00:58:35.440
Cactus and the Beast is on Academia
dot edu and this guy was also was

757
00:58:35.519 --> 00:58:40.119
I don't know if still is um. An OTEO member made the point that

758
00:58:40.159 --> 00:58:46.320
if you go through all of Churl's
diaries, you used used to used to

759
00:58:46.320 --> 00:58:52.760
write about everything right about all is
um experience. And you also also used

760
00:58:52.800 --> 00:59:00.000
to use a lot of symbols to
like shorthand for various um practices. Right.

761
00:59:00.000 --> 00:59:04.159
For instance, oftentimes if you found
like a circle with a cross in

762
00:59:04.159 --> 00:59:07.400
the middle, which is kind of
like a representation of the rose cross,

763
00:59:07.559 --> 00:59:12.639
that could have meant sexual union,
like sex magic simplifying it, but in

764
00:59:12.679 --> 00:59:16.079
general that gives you the idea.
Well, this guy went to pretty much

765
00:59:16.119 --> 00:59:22.880
improved that he was using a lot
of payoti towards his entire magical career.

766
00:59:22.400 --> 00:59:28.760
And he's not the only one,
right, Like, there's plenty of scholars

767
00:59:28.920 --> 00:59:32.599
and you know, researchers that try
to prove that in a lot of early

768
00:59:32.760 --> 00:59:38.079
Masonic ritual there was a lot of
use of psychedeics as well, maybe hashish,

769
00:59:38.119 --> 00:59:42.079
which was not the kind of stuff
you find this day, but like

770
00:59:42.199 --> 00:59:45.960
early like super potent as I will
give you a lot of visual effects.

771
00:59:45.679 --> 00:59:50.559
Now, of course, we live
in a society, especially here in the

772
00:59:50.599 --> 00:59:53.920
West where you know, we we
waived the war on drugs and we lost

773
00:59:53.960 --> 00:59:59.440
it terribly over the years. In
the last decade, things are trying to

774
01:00:00.079 --> 01:00:02.119
change in that direction, but there's
still a lot of prohibitionism. And the

775
01:00:02.159 --> 01:00:08.199
problem is that you just cannot give
drugs to people because you have to learn

776
01:00:08.239 --> 01:00:12.519
the drug. Again, there can
be any instant instant gratification there. Either

777
01:00:12.880 --> 01:00:15.960
you have to learn the drug,
you have to get in touch with it,

778
01:00:15.079 --> 01:00:17.679
you have to understand, you have
to understand what kind of effects it

779
01:00:17.760 --> 01:00:22.719
will. It will you know,
give to your body, and as you

780
01:00:22.760 --> 01:00:27.320
said, like everybody is different,
everybody will have different reactions. But my

781
01:00:27.400 --> 01:00:36.320
point is it could well be that
you can never have deeper, higher experiences,

782
01:00:36.599 --> 01:00:43.840
you know, magister template ever experiences
unless you help your body with chemicals

783
01:00:43.880 --> 01:00:45.880
from outside, which is you know, it's opening the doors of perception,

784
01:00:46.119 --> 01:00:52.360
like all of those Aculay wrote,
and again McKenna and everybody who was part

785
01:00:52.400 --> 01:00:58.880
of you know, the lizergic and
a generation of the sixties and seventies became

786
01:00:58.880 --> 01:01:01.519
a big proponent of m I don't
know, I don't know if we'll ever

787
01:01:01.559 --> 01:01:07.000
get there, because unfortunately we're still
in in you know, living again in

788
01:01:07.000 --> 01:01:14.400
a society where drug use is completely
seen as unacceptable, because it does it

789
01:01:14.440 --> 01:01:20.280
can be incredibly dangerous if you're not
familiar with what you're doing. And at

790
01:01:20.280 --> 01:01:25.000
the same time, we're having people
going to to do I don't know,

791
01:01:25.760 --> 01:01:35.119
Ayahuaska retreats without even understanding how incredibly
potent and invasive is an Ayahuaska retreat and

792
01:01:35.239 --> 01:01:40.360
coming back with their minds shattered.
So um, well, that's why I

793
01:01:40.400 --> 01:01:46.679
think people like Paul Stamitz and his
work is very very important to not only

794
01:01:47.079 --> 01:01:53.360
the magical community but everyone in general, because he references quite a few research

795
01:01:53.599 --> 01:02:01.199
like Harvard research papers and experiments with
still cyban In particular, it repairs your

796
01:02:01.440 --> 01:02:07.400
brain and it creates new neural pathways, and I think that definitely could be

797
01:02:07.440 --> 01:02:13.119
a key to unlocking that pathway to
higher consciousness. And one thing I also

798
01:02:13.159 --> 01:02:17.159
want to add about the doctors back
then, you know, prescribing cocaine as

799
01:02:19.079 --> 01:02:23.840
typical over the gounters like prescription um
the what is the name of that book

800
01:02:23.840 --> 01:02:28.400
you just got? The Cross,
the Sacred Mushroom in the Holy Cross?

801
01:02:28.639 --> 01:02:31.239
Yes, so um, I'm not
Are you sure? Are you familiar familiar

802
01:02:31.280 --> 01:02:36.639
with that? Marco. I'm not, but it sounds very interesting. I'll

803
01:02:36.639 --> 01:02:39.199
send you a link to it.
It's um. Well. Yeah, one

804
01:02:39.199 --> 01:02:43.800
thing we talked about, me and
Bob is that the fact that, uh,

805
01:02:43.840 --> 01:02:47.960
some of these priests that we're coming
over to America, we're bringing this

806
01:02:49.400 --> 01:02:54.039
herb with them. And this herb
is allegedly, in theory tied to the

807
01:02:54.079 --> 01:02:59.039
burning bush in the Bible, and
that burning bush was a what was the

808
01:02:59.119 --> 01:03:01.599
name of That was the name of
it, oh ye asked me too fast,

809
01:03:01.840 --> 01:03:07.559
I did. It was a psychedelic
inducing bush that was grown in Africa,

810
01:03:07.639 --> 01:03:13.440
and that was there was a fossilized
version that was found that matched the

811
01:03:13.519 --> 01:03:19.039
time period of when this scripture would
have been written or talked about, and

812
01:03:19.960 --> 01:03:23.400
lightning would light these bushes on fire. The smoke could induce hallucinogenic effects.

813
01:03:24.760 --> 01:03:29.480
Anyway, these herbs were brought over
to America, they were passed around in

814
01:03:29.639 --> 01:03:34.440
Catholic rituals. You know, they
got the swinging incense as they go through

815
01:03:34.440 --> 01:03:38.480
the aisles, and it could be
causing hallucinogenic like effects to the masses,

816
01:03:38.519 --> 01:03:44.079
to the people in the church.
So it wasn't just us weirdos who do

817
01:03:44.320 --> 01:03:47.880
magic rituals in the woods. It
was also your granny who went to good

818
01:03:47.920 --> 01:03:53.280
old Southern Baptist Church. I'm just
saying, yeah, absolutely absolutely, and

819
01:03:53.320 --> 01:03:55.719
to kind of grow on this.
So the books called The Cigarete Mushroom in

820
01:03:55.760 --> 01:04:00.840
the Cross by John Allegro. It
was an incredibly controversial book. The Catholic

821
01:04:00.880 --> 01:04:05.119
Church bought out the rights um and
through a various amount of loopholes and legal

822
01:04:05.199 --> 01:04:09.480
dropping of the ball it was.
It was reprinted not too long ago.

823
01:04:09.599 --> 01:04:13.320
It was within an hour of the
publishing rights. So they bought it for

824
01:04:13.400 --> 01:04:18.679
like interesting they bought it for like
thirty years. It expired and within an

825
01:04:18.679 --> 01:04:24.280
hour of them trying to rebuy it, this guy came and purchased the rights

826
01:04:24.280 --> 01:04:28.280
and reprint it up. Yeah,
it's it's it's an incredible book. It's

827
01:04:28.320 --> 01:04:30.920
a very it's very controversial, and
it's a lot of speculation. But well,

828
01:04:30.920 --> 01:04:35.039
when he wouldn't sell the rights,
they bought his publishing company to buy

829
01:04:35.079 --> 01:04:39.800
the rights to the book. So
it's a whole there's something there that I

830
01:04:39.960 --> 01:04:43.239
definitely think people should look into.
But but but to kind of build off

831
01:04:43.280 --> 01:04:47.320
the psychedelic the demonization right now here
in the States for those who might not

832
01:04:47.360 --> 01:04:50.880
be familiar. There are. There
are a few locations in which psychedelics are

833
01:04:50.920 --> 01:04:56.320
decriminalized and legal, so in Arbura, Michigan, Denver, Colorado, Portland,

834
01:04:56.320 --> 01:04:59.000
Oregon, and I believe some parts
of Washington. It might be the

835
01:04:59.079 --> 01:05:01.800
entirety of Washington. In state.
Here in the States, we love to

836
01:05:01.840 --> 01:05:06.280
do things like make psychedelics a Schedule
one controlled substance, meaning it has zero

837
01:05:06.320 --> 01:05:10.880
medical benefits whatsoever. Well, even
though ten plus years ago, what we

838
01:05:10.920 --> 01:05:15.039
have John Hawkins University producing studies that
not only challenges us but disproves it entirely

839
01:05:15.079 --> 01:05:19.119
that it has zero medical benefits.
But that's kind of where we're at.

840
01:05:19.159 --> 01:05:21.199
And I know we're kind of pressed, we're time. Sorry, I want

841
01:05:21.199 --> 01:05:26.760
to throw something else at you,
Marco. I'm incredibly passionate here about the

842
01:05:26.880 --> 01:05:30.960
Satanic panic and the fact that people
I get told consistently, Bob, this

843
01:05:31.000 --> 01:05:34.119
was in the nineties. It's over. It's it's it's it's not over.

844
01:05:34.199 --> 01:05:38.519
It's ever more prevalent, and if
not, it's become, in my opinion,

845
01:05:38.599 --> 01:05:42.519
more weaponized in a smarter way because
of the way that technology halved.

846
01:05:42.559 --> 01:05:45.960
Technology is involved, and we see
this in paranale investigation all the time.

847
01:05:45.960 --> 01:05:48.440
We actually just talk to Brandon Elvis, who's got an amazing show coming out,

848
01:05:48.480 --> 01:05:53.559
Haunted Discoveries, and we have this
discussion where people found that you can

849
01:05:53.880 --> 01:05:58.119
you can do two things. One
the idea the ideology that demons sell so

850
01:05:58.199 --> 01:06:00.760
every ghost is a demon and discussion. I want to kind of talk to

851
01:06:00.800 --> 01:06:03.519
you in the in the magic community
and one of you face. You know,

852
01:06:03.599 --> 01:06:06.400
we kind of talked about some of
some bad reviews from the book and

853
01:06:06.480 --> 01:06:10.679
it wasn't as many as you thought, thankfully. Where do you think we

854
01:06:10.719 --> 01:06:14.639
are with the Satanic panic when we're
talking ritualistic magic in twenty twenty three.

855
01:06:14.719 --> 01:06:19.639
It has it affected you personally,
So I definitely think that satanic panic is

856
01:06:19.679 --> 01:06:24.559
back and it's it'sier to stay.
I agree with you when you say that

857
01:06:24.960 --> 01:06:29.280
it's it's it's worse than the first
time around, because, as you correctly

858
01:06:29.320 --> 01:06:33.360
mentioned, this time, the you
know, the bagged actors are going to

859
01:06:33.480 --> 01:06:39.000
weaponize it in more efficient ways than
they did the first time around. Um,

860
01:06:39.679 --> 01:06:42.639
you know, you know, we
could we use the term satanic panic,

861
01:06:42.679 --> 01:06:45.719
but we could use QAnon, we
could use pizza Gate, we could

862
01:06:45.840 --> 01:06:50.000
use everything that goes back to the
idea of the blood lieboat right, the

863
01:06:50.000 --> 01:06:57.400
idea that there's someone that it's usually
the Jews or or could be anybody related

864
01:06:57.440 --> 01:07:03.480
to tom To to them that you
know, killed children with terrible, um

865
01:07:03.679 --> 01:07:09.920
bull old rituals. This is I
mean, I had to face it already

866
01:07:10.119 --> 01:07:15.559
multiple times. I tend to to
delete those comments on my various social media's.

867
01:07:15.039 --> 01:07:17.559
I tend to you always keep all
the comments up, but those one

868
01:07:17.599 --> 01:07:20.760
in particularly, I tend to to
delete them because I don't want to give

869
01:07:20.800 --> 01:07:27.800
these people any um, any platform
at all, you know, whatsoever.

870
01:07:28.320 --> 01:07:32.880
But it's it's definitely there, right, It's absolutely there. Um. It's

871
01:07:33.000 --> 01:07:40.239
it's really worrying in a way because
I'm actually speaking with um what somebody was

872
01:07:40.280 --> 01:07:45.679
doing a PhD on the Satanic panic
right now and she reported that m her

873
01:07:45.960 --> 01:07:54.559
her academic interview was pretty much like
deleted from YouTube because you know, of

874
01:07:54.719 --> 01:08:00.400
the because of the of the teams
that they were being discussed. So and

875
01:08:00.400 --> 01:08:03.760
this is something that I noticed is
that over the last three years. So

876
01:08:04.480 --> 01:08:06.840
I don't know if that's been you've
noticed as well, you mean, maybe

877
01:08:06.840 --> 01:08:10.519
you can tell me, but I
noticed that because I look a lot at

878
01:08:10.960 --> 01:08:15.000
analytics, right, It's part of
one of my interests. Looking at data,

879
01:08:15.079 --> 01:08:20.960
and I noticed that a lot of
YouTube YouTube content, in particular videos

880
01:08:21.039 --> 01:08:26.640
about magic, witchcraft, etc.
Especially in magic and which not so much

881
01:08:26.720 --> 01:08:34.119
UFOs not so much again paranormal investigations, but magic and witchcraft or it went

882
01:08:34.439 --> 01:08:40.279
downhill in views incredibly, right to
the point that I don't believe it's just

883
01:08:40.359 --> 01:08:45.000
a case of people not being interested
in the subject anymore. It's an imagical

884
01:08:45.199 --> 01:08:47.359
press, you know, you know, imagic. Yeah, exactly like in

885
01:08:47.399 --> 01:08:51.600
magic, there's always waves. This
this topic came and comes, comes and

886
01:08:51.640 --> 01:08:56.760
goes because as we said before,
it's so difficult if you really want to

887
01:08:56.800 --> 01:09:00.800
engage with it. You realize that
you don't have just to to and you

888
01:09:00.840 --> 01:09:02.800
know a mantra, look at a
scio or do some good O rituals.

889
01:09:02.840 --> 01:09:06.520
You have to really do something and
you know, engage with it. So

890
01:09:06.600 --> 01:09:09.800
most people just you know, come
and go. And that's fine. But

891
01:09:10.159 --> 01:09:15.680
we went from I went from seeing
you know, big names dropping a video

892
01:09:15.720 --> 01:09:21.880
and having sixty thousand views over a
year two six hundred. I mean that's

893
01:09:23.000 --> 01:09:26.920
that's incredible, right, And it's
not like the quality went down. Um,

894
01:09:27.000 --> 01:09:30.560
we're we're talking about you know,
not small creators. I have like

895
01:09:30.359 --> 01:09:34.560
two thousand, five hundred and six
hundred people on YouTube, and I never

896
01:09:34.960 --> 01:09:39.239
publish. I just do live streams, right, So I'm not talking about

897
01:09:39.279 --> 01:09:43.880
me. I'm talking about people with
three hundred thousand followers, right, And

898
01:09:44.199 --> 01:09:47.840
they had in a lot of attraction
and the attraction is completely gone. And

899
01:09:47.920 --> 01:09:55.399
I think that's part of the algorithm
of YouTube being twiaked on one sense because

900
01:09:56.000 --> 01:10:00.239
they you know, they cannot sell
ads for magic, right because have what

901
01:10:00.479 --> 01:10:03.039
kind of ads do they sell?
But part of it possibly because they've been

902
01:10:03.279 --> 01:10:06.479
I don't think that YouTube is like
trying to or Google, right, trying

903
01:10:06.479 --> 01:10:13.960
to push Satanic Panic ideology. But
maybe they don't want to get um when

904
01:10:14.079 --> 01:10:16.800
attacked by these nuts, right,
So they kind of did something with the

905
01:10:16.800 --> 01:10:24.119
algorithms so that it's specifically magic and
specifically witchcraft. It's almost gone from from

906
01:10:24.159 --> 01:10:27.880
the platform. Um if you if
you follow various creators, you'll see you

907
01:10:27.960 --> 01:10:30.880
still see them. But maybe even
if you're a subscriber, you're those view

908
01:10:31.119 --> 01:10:35.319
views views, yeah, yeah,
exactly, you have to go and find

909
01:10:35.359 --> 01:10:42.520
them yourself. So in many ways, this is one of the more insidious

910
01:10:42.560 --> 01:10:46.479
ways that the Satanic Panic is acting
nowadays. Personally, I said I did

911
01:10:46.600 --> 01:10:50.560
receive a good deal of you around
of the meal, uh you know,

912
01:10:50.640 --> 01:10:57.479
insults that threats. But again,
I mean again, I I wrote a

913
01:10:57.479 --> 01:11:03.119
book which is bafflement on the cover. I was expecting that you know that

914
01:11:03.159 --> 01:11:06.439
book. By the way, originally
the title was supposed to be Telm after

915
01:11:06.520 --> 01:11:11.600
Tears. It used to have a
different image on the on the on the

916
01:11:11.640 --> 01:11:14.640
cover. But you know, like
the publisher really convinced me to go for

917
01:11:14.680 --> 01:11:18.399
the Lester crony manual and that very
in your face, which I think it

918
01:11:18.479 --> 01:11:24.479
did did a good job. It's
very recognizable, but it definitely did attract

919
01:11:24.520 --> 01:11:30.039
a lot of crazies. Uh.
When it comes to the reviews, um,

920
01:11:30.199 --> 01:11:32.159
to be fair, the only bad
reviews that I got, and we're

921
01:11:32.159 --> 01:11:36.840
talking about just to given the yea
right now, the book is four stars

922
01:11:36.880 --> 01:11:42.359
four point five stars out of five
on you know as an you know,

923
01:11:42.560 --> 01:11:47.239
um, the aggregated score between good
Reads and Amazon, right which is which

924
01:11:47.279 --> 01:11:53.239
is decent. I'm very happy with
it. The only bad reviews are from

925
01:11:53.239 --> 01:11:58.520
otio people because and only the and
the and their their bad reviews that absolutely

926
01:11:58.560 --> 01:12:02.239
do not speak about the book.
They're like, they talk shit about me.

927
01:12:02.800 --> 01:12:06.199
They say that I was I was
kicked out of the OTEO. It's

928
01:12:06.239 --> 01:12:10.800
not true. I resigned. They
say that the book is full of my

929
01:12:10.960 --> 01:12:15.399
political ideas. It's not true.
I never speak about politics in the books.

930
01:12:15.800 --> 01:12:18.600
They say that the book you should
read other things, not by people

931
01:12:18.600 --> 01:12:23.880
that are against the OTEO. Why, I mean, it's you know what

932
01:12:23.920 --> 01:12:27.960
I mean, right, So it's
I don't see my bad book reviews,

933
01:12:27.960 --> 01:12:31.640
which by the way, are six
out of one hundred and one hundred and

934
01:12:31.640 --> 01:12:34.840
eleven right now reviews on Amazon.
So it's not that it's not that bad.

935
01:12:34.840 --> 01:12:39.479
It's good overall. But you know
those reviews are I don't think they're

936
01:12:39.640 --> 01:12:43.880
linked to Satanic panic themselves. It's
a linked about the fact that the OTEO

937
01:12:44.000 --> 01:12:47.279
is a cult and whenever you get
out of the cult and criticize the cult,

938
01:12:48.199 --> 01:12:53.720
they will come after you. And
Greenfield have had the same experience.

939
01:12:54.199 --> 01:12:59.479
Gerald wil Campo had the same experience. Everybody who spoke against the OTEO as

940
01:12:59.520 --> 01:13:02.880
an ex member of OTEO had the
same experience. Um, well, we've

941
01:13:02.920 --> 01:13:10.600
had that we've interacted with throughout the
years. So I mean, what's another

942
01:13:10.680 --> 01:13:14.560
one, Just just another one,
right, Because we can never get enough

943
01:13:14.680 --> 01:13:17.800
of cults of personalities I mean,
it's it's sad to say, but apparently

944
01:13:17.840 --> 01:13:23.319
that's really what people want. People
want to be part of something that tells

945
01:13:23.359 --> 01:13:26.760
them that they're special and unique,
even if they're not, even if they

946
01:13:26.840 --> 01:13:30.840
do nothing to be special and unique, and that there is one one person

947
01:13:30.920 --> 01:13:34.800
at the top, which is either
like a sky Daddy or somebody who died.

948
01:13:34.920 --> 01:13:40.239
And I'm being unshrined every time I
read that your book, I was

949
01:13:40.399 --> 01:13:45.960
laughing so much. Sky Daddy is
the perfect term for it. I mean

950
01:13:45.159 --> 01:13:49.279
it's it's kind of it kind of
gives the you know, the kind of

951
01:13:49.279 --> 01:13:51.520
paints the correct figure. I think. Yeah, so, you know,

952
01:13:51.560 --> 01:13:56.800
long, long story short, I
do think that the Satanic pining two point

953
01:13:56.800 --> 01:14:02.399
two is back easier to stay.
And it's really really dangerous um because you

954
01:14:02.439 --> 01:14:05.640
know, at the end of the
day, behind the Satanic panic, you

955
01:14:05.680 --> 01:14:09.960
find q and One, you find
Pizza Gate, you find blood libel,

956
01:14:10.239 --> 01:14:16.399
You find them are pedophiles and so
they should die. And it's always the

957
01:14:16.439 --> 01:14:19.279
same thing. I mean, like
it's always the same story. It goes

958
01:14:19.319 --> 01:14:24.399
back to the to the blood libel
against the Jews since the Middle Ages,

959
01:14:24.840 --> 01:14:30.520
right, and it's it's really it's
dangerous times. I really believe we're we're

960
01:14:30.520 --> 01:14:35.079
not living in in a very safe, not safe moment of history. Yes,

961
01:14:38.800 --> 01:14:41.760
I hope. I hope I could
say something, you know, like

962
01:14:41.880 --> 01:14:44.960
end this on a on a positive
note, but no, I think that,

963
01:14:45.279 --> 01:14:50.199
you know, I also like this. I also would like to remember

964
01:14:50.279 --> 01:14:55.880
everybody that the way we got out
of Satanic Panic one point two is by

965
01:14:55.960 --> 01:15:00.520
people speaking up, by people being
you know, rages enough and bold enough

966
01:15:00.600 --> 01:15:08.199
to stand against the lies and the
slander and the libel. So I really

967
01:15:08.199 --> 01:15:15.800
hope that people can remain strong knowing
that we are going to rough waters.

968
01:15:15.840 --> 01:15:18.479
And that's not denying debt, No, absolutely, And I want to kind

969
01:15:18.479 --> 01:15:21.880
of build off something real fast.
So we have a second channel where recover

970
01:15:21.960 --> 01:15:27.039
missing person's content. We have two
hundred and sixty thousand subscribers or something like

971
01:15:27.079 --> 01:15:30.000
that over there, and we like
you, like yourself. I live in

972
01:15:30.039 --> 01:15:33.199
the analytics. I love looking at
trends. I love figuring out what they

973
01:15:33.199 --> 01:15:36.159
mean, what they could meet in
the future. That's just kind of my

974
01:15:36.159 --> 01:15:40.279
my thing. And I had done
a video on the Tails from the Dark

975
01:15:40.319 --> 01:15:44.399
channel about the Satanic Panic it got. It literally was called what is the

976
01:15:44.479 --> 01:15:49.079
Santanic Panic? Yeah, it got
demonetized instantly wasn't recommended anytime on the missing

977
01:15:49.119 --> 01:15:53.720
person's side if we discussed the faith
theory or we discussed magical practice as a

978
01:15:53.840 --> 01:15:57.960
ritual magic. It's not just that
we'll see a dip in views. We'll

979
01:15:58.000 --> 01:16:00.800
go from typically getting you know,
twenty to thirty thou into three to four

980
01:16:01.560 --> 01:16:05.880
and twenty four hours if we're lucky, and it's it's extremely obvious when you

981
01:16:05.920 --> 01:16:12.439
look at the analytics, like you
said, you can easily identify where these

982
01:16:12.479 --> 01:16:15.720
things are happening. Now the how, that's where we have a bit more

983
01:16:15.760 --> 01:16:18.720
of a difficult discussion to have because
you don't you don't want to combat a

984
01:16:18.760 --> 01:16:23.920
conspiracy with a conspiracy. And that's
where it's incredibly difficult to have the conversation

985
01:16:23.960 --> 01:16:28.039
about the Satanic panic because you have
some people say it just doesn't exist,

986
01:16:28.279 --> 01:16:30.399
it doesn't exist, because I don't. I'm not affected by it. What

987
01:16:31.079 --> 01:16:33.359
in my case, you know,
I grew up in the nineties and small

988
01:16:33.359 --> 01:16:39.479
town Ohio where my parents were convinced
that everyone was part of a secret society

989
01:16:40.000 --> 01:16:43.119
and that everyone was out to murder
us or traffic us. I mean,

990
01:16:43.319 --> 01:16:45.920
hell, your parents literally told you
there are cultists in the woods. Yeah,

991
01:16:46.039 --> 01:16:48.680
do not go out on this specific
road. Well, that's a big

992
01:16:48.720 --> 01:16:53.000
conversation that my film partner and I've
had a bunch of times because we grew

993
01:16:53.079 --> 01:16:56.520
up in the same town hearing the
same thing. Out on River Road.

994
01:16:56.880 --> 01:17:00.640
There's cultists that are sacrificing kids.
And if only you know one or two

995
01:17:00.680 --> 01:17:03.199
people heard that, you're like,
oh, that's weird the whole Yeah,

996
01:17:03.199 --> 01:17:06.359
everyone and everyone in my high school
class heard the exact same story, no

997
01:17:06.399 --> 01:17:10.720
matter race, creater, nationality,
we all heard the same thing. We

998
01:17:10.720 --> 01:17:14.720
had some people who were extremely high
up on the the monetary guidelines, people

999
01:17:14.720 --> 01:17:19.319
that were making town. Those people
were hearing the same stories that out on

1000
01:17:19.439 --> 01:17:25.119
River Road there are people doing rituals
and they're sacrificing children. Where that doesn't

1001
01:17:25.159 --> 01:17:29.840
just come out of nowhere. And
I love history. When we approach a

1002
01:17:30.119 --> 01:17:32.840
we have a documentary out where we
did a panimal investigation to me the highlights

1003
01:17:32.880 --> 01:17:36.880
the historical aspect. I have dove
as deep as I possibly can. I've

1004
01:17:36.920 --> 01:17:43.199
on earth some very disturbing history in
my hometown. Nothing about the cold.

1005
01:17:43.560 --> 01:17:46.279
There was one major h There was
a murderer at my hometown when I was

1006
01:17:46.319 --> 01:17:49.079
a child. The first thing they
said. And this was as far over

1007
01:17:49.199 --> 01:17:55.159
as um. Some London papers wrote
about him saying he was a local occultist

1008
01:17:55.439 --> 01:18:00.239
and they had blamed his uh disillusion
from his local church on being an occultist.

1009
01:18:00.760 --> 01:18:05.079
There was zero proof anywhere that this
guy was supposedly part of a cult.

1010
01:18:05.199 --> 01:18:09.439
And I've looked and if any if
it was out there, you would

1011
01:18:09.479 --> 01:18:13.279
have found it. You And I
mean I'm talking. I've gone to the

1012
01:18:13.279 --> 01:18:17.840
local historical society. I've read every
paper from eighty nine to OZ four records,

1013
01:18:17.960 --> 01:18:21.239
you name it. You were that
that case, you were in it

1014
01:18:21.279 --> 01:18:25.439
for months. Yeah, And I
could not find any proof, with the

1015
01:18:25.439 --> 01:18:29.319
exception of the rest of the country
was going through Satanic panic one point zero.

1016
01:18:29.680 --> 01:18:33.680
And it was extremely easy to attach
this evil thing that happened in a

1017
01:18:34.000 --> 01:18:40.279
small town where things never happened to
the greater Satanic panic of Oh, this

1018
01:18:40.319 --> 01:18:45.159
is a secret society that's infiltrating this
small Ohio town. And you also had

1019
01:18:45.239 --> 01:18:49.760
quite a bit of Catholic background in
Catholic churches in your hometown, and I

1020
01:18:49.800 --> 01:18:55.720
think that definitely helped aid that narrative, because growing up Baptist, I didn't

1021
01:18:55.760 --> 01:19:00.920
experience it that as much. And
It definitely wasn't everything is a demon when

1022
01:19:00.920 --> 01:19:04.520
I was grown up, but we
were definitely superstitious. So no, like

1023
01:19:04.720 --> 01:19:10.520
like I said, like when you
when you study the history behind these events,

1024
01:19:10.560 --> 01:19:14.119
you realize there's no history. But
of course, people people that believe

1025
01:19:14.119 --> 01:19:17.159
in any panic or blood libel or
knoon or pitzigate, they will tell you,

1026
01:19:17.199 --> 01:19:23.520
well, you know know, because
you're not high enough in any group,

1027
01:19:23.600 --> 01:19:27.399
and you you're the powers that be
are so strong that the elite of

1028
01:19:27.439 --> 01:19:32.199
Hollywood is so strong that um,
you know, they'll they'll they'll hush everything.

1029
01:19:32.359 --> 01:19:38.439
The problem is that, unfortunately that
also is complete books because Blue and

1030
01:19:38.479 --> 01:19:43.960
be Old, we know of people
like Epstein that are actual pedophiles, that

1031
01:19:44.840 --> 01:19:47.119
incredibly powerful people with a lot of
money, but we know about them.

1032
01:19:47.359 --> 01:19:50.560
It's them, right, there's nothing
else than that. And you know,

1033
01:19:51.600 --> 01:19:58.960
to to keep on trying to create
these false narratives of some sort of like

1034
01:20:00.039 --> 01:20:04.760
magic colds or reach ritualistic murders.
It's just because almost like people have some

1035
01:20:04.800 --> 01:20:12.600
sort of like obscene fascination almost like
faticization of this of these ideas, right,

1036
01:20:12.840 --> 01:20:15.640
and you know, it's almost increasing
incredible to me that you know,

1037
01:20:15.640 --> 01:20:19.039
we're living in in a moment of
history where pretty much, you know,

1038
01:20:19.720 --> 01:20:25.800
we know whatever happened to happen in
Epstein Island, right the guy so you

1039
01:20:25.800 --> 01:20:29.800
know, killed himself or you know, got suicided, or we will never

1040
01:20:29.840 --> 01:20:34.039
possibly know that Gilaine Maxwell is still
in jail. We know that, you

1041
01:20:34.079 --> 01:20:39.279
know, for instance, all these
people were very good friends with Donald Trump.

1042
01:20:39.680 --> 01:20:44.199
But you know who's usually the people
that actually go and um, you

1043
01:20:44.239 --> 01:20:48.800
know, share satanic panic narratives are
Trump supporters. And by the way,

1044
01:20:48.880 --> 01:20:53.039
it's the same in here in the
UK, in Italy, everywhere. It's

1045
01:20:53.039 --> 01:20:57.199
always it's always like that kind of
people that cannot see the obvious and they

1046
01:20:57.199 --> 01:21:02.399
have to create us try that pans. It's always exactly exactly right. Look

1047
01:21:02.399 --> 01:21:08.600
at this while my hands doing this. Yeah, it's really difficult because for

1048
01:21:08.680 --> 01:21:13.960
every we've discussed this from the show, for every one hundred Pizza Gates,

1049
01:21:14.279 --> 01:21:17.199
you do have a Finder's cult here
in the US, and we've seen that

1050
01:21:17.520 --> 01:21:24.680
I documents or you or you have
a situation where what's happening at bohemian growth,

1051
01:21:24.760 --> 01:21:27.039
that's that's up for interpretation. Depending
on who you talk to. It

1052
01:21:27.039 --> 01:21:30.319
can be as simple as they are
a paying homage to a theater, an

1053
01:21:30.359 --> 01:21:33.960
old theater act. That's the thing. Though for everyone that's real, there

1054
01:21:34.000 --> 01:21:38.239
are there are a thousand that are
nonsense. And when we first started tell

1055
01:21:38.319 --> 01:21:40.600
Us from the Dark, I fell
down a lot of those rabbit holes of

1056
01:21:41.119 --> 01:21:44.840
everything's a fucking conspiracy, this is
insane. Then you crawl your way back

1057
01:21:44.880 --> 01:21:47.359
out and you're able to look and
say, this has legs. This was

1058
01:21:47.399 --> 01:21:50.079
made up by some dude in his
mom's basement. It's it's yeah, And

1059
01:21:50.119 --> 01:21:54.319
you have to know how to differentiate
between the two. And I do want

1060
01:21:54.359 --> 01:21:57.880
you to say the statistic that we
would like to refer to you when we

1061
01:21:57.880 --> 01:22:01.600
talk about the Satanic panic, about
how there's not been a documented ritualistic killing.

1062
01:22:02.159 --> 01:22:04.399
Go ahead, all, let you
say that's the whole thing there.

1063
01:22:04.439 --> 01:22:09.840
So when I was in the police
academy, I had a conversation about um,

1064
01:22:10.000 --> 01:22:12.880
Satanic cults was the thing that was
still being talked about in the police

1065
01:22:12.880 --> 01:22:16.359
academy, And I said, hey, how many times have as the FBI

1066
01:22:16.520 --> 01:22:23.199
caught these these satanists that are sacrificing
kids. And my instructor, who it

1067
01:22:23.279 --> 01:22:26.880
was, was an FBI. Um. He worked for the FBI doing like

1068
01:22:26.960 --> 01:22:32.079
various teachings and he says, Bob, We've never caught one ever. There's

1069
01:22:32.119 --> 01:22:38.079
not a there's not a there's not
a single documented case of a ritualistic killing

1070
01:22:38.560 --> 01:22:41.520
under the name of Satan. And
I'm like, hang the fuck on.

1071
01:22:42.119 --> 01:22:45.159
I grew up hearing that this was
happening every week, like everywhere. Gonna

1072
01:22:45.159 --> 01:22:47.279
look at at a go grocery,
at a Dollar General, It's gonna be

1073
01:22:47.279 --> 01:22:49.760
happening by the dumbest. Yeah,
every Tuesday. We were meeting up and

1074
01:22:49.800 --> 01:22:53.520
this is He's like, no,
there's never been one. We don't have

1075
01:22:53.560 --> 01:22:57.199
one. And the people who say
it's a ritualistic killing under Satan's name,

1076
01:22:58.239 --> 01:23:00.159
that's they have no backing for that. We're just saying it because it gets

1077
01:23:00.159 --> 01:23:03.279
the clicks online and it gets the
eyes on. And I'm like that,

1078
01:23:03.680 --> 01:23:08.079
it's such an insane statistic. Now, granted I don't know if he's just

1079
01:23:08.119 --> 01:23:12.680
talking here in the States or worldwide, but this guy would have been it's

1080
01:23:12.720 --> 01:23:17.319
everywhere. Trust me, it's it's
the same everywhere. Like I did,

1081
01:23:17.359 --> 01:23:21.680
I did study the subject a lot, because you know, like at some

1082
01:23:21.720 --> 01:23:27.359
point I realized that given who I
am, what I write about, what

1083
01:23:27.439 --> 01:23:30.720
I believe in, I could well
become you know, a target at some

1084
01:23:30.800 --> 01:23:38.880
point and there's never ever been any
proof and Satanic ritual murder ever existed,

1085
01:23:38.960 --> 01:23:44.399
ever happened. It all goes back
to really layout Axial and his hoax um.

1086
01:23:44.680 --> 01:23:47.159
You know, I mean that we
could we could discuss about Texel for

1087
01:23:47.239 --> 01:23:53.359
another hour, but it's all about
what this guy that really wanted to play

1088
01:23:53.359 --> 01:23:58.279
a big prank against the Catholic Church
in the eighteen hundreds in France, and

1089
01:23:58.399 --> 01:24:02.800
he succeeded. For for good ten
years. He wrote books and pamphlets about

1090
01:24:02.800 --> 01:24:08.960
this secret Palladian Order of freemasery.
There was, you know, meeting under

1091
01:24:09.000 --> 01:24:14.560
the Rock of Gibraltar, worshiping Satan, killing children. Pretty mull like getting

1092
01:24:14.560 --> 01:24:16.800
all the ropes back from the blah
blah bel against the Jews in the Middle

1093
01:24:16.800 --> 01:24:23.399
Ages, and the Vatican believed it
and even invited this guy to Rome to

1094
01:24:23.960 --> 01:24:29.880
for this big expose of the Palladian
Order. And the guy, which actually

1095
01:24:30.039 --> 01:24:33.199
was a socialist you would argue,
maybe or a protocommunist, to say,

1096
01:24:33.239 --> 01:24:38.319
well, actually you are the fools
because I ranked you. It's like,

1097
01:24:38.720 --> 01:24:45.800
and people still goes again, still
perpetrate taxil hoax um. If you if

1098
01:24:45.840 --> 01:24:49.920
you never heard about this gone Wikipedia. Look for tax Cil t A x

1099
01:24:49.960 --> 01:24:56.239
I L hoax. Very good article, a lot of links. Actually on

1100
01:24:56.359 --> 01:25:01.439
Kickstarter right now there is someone is
translating his book from French and it has

1101
01:25:01.479 --> 01:25:05.880
been one of the biggest Kickstarter of
the year. They raised over sixty thousand

1102
01:25:05.880 --> 01:25:10.600
dollars to do it because there's a
lot of interest because it's really like,

1103
01:25:10.840 --> 01:25:15.880
especially when you read it, it's
so atrociously you know, unbelievable. Yeah,

1104
01:25:15.920 --> 01:25:20.880
and trust me, pretty much every
trope you hear from Satanic panic nuts

1105
01:25:21.560 --> 01:25:28.359
it comes from that book. They
still perpetrate the same hoax, possibly without

1106
01:25:28.399 --> 01:25:32.199
knowing, you know, but the
same you know, it's the same beats

1107
01:25:32.239 --> 01:25:36.680
of taxil. And that was eighteen
sixty if I'm not mistaken, So a

1108
01:25:36.680 --> 01:25:42.159
good one hundred and forty years later. It's a long time under sixty years

1109
01:25:42.279 --> 01:25:45.079
later, a long time all right, Marco, Well, we we're I

1110
01:25:45.079 --> 01:25:46.239
don't want to take up too much
more of your time, but before you

1111
01:25:46.279 --> 01:25:48.920
go, where can people find your
book? I know you teach classes.

1112
01:25:49.000 --> 01:25:53.560
We kind of schedule on your courses. Where can they find more? Marco?

1113
01:25:54.439 --> 01:25:59.119
Oh, well, why would everybody
want to find more? All right?

1114
01:25:59.159 --> 01:26:05.800
That's access jokes aside. If you
go on Marco Visconti dot org that's

1115
01:26:05.840 --> 01:26:12.880
kind of my online hub, you
will find the two soon to be three

1116
01:26:13.039 --> 01:26:16.479
main courses I teach. The first
one is Magic Without Tears, which is

1117
01:26:16.520 --> 01:26:23.319
pretty much like the book but extended, you know, with recording of life

1118
01:26:23.479 --> 01:26:29.159
live sessions and you know more more
more or less, I'm expanding on the

1119
01:26:29.239 --> 01:26:33.680
book right um in interesting enough.
Right now I'm running my last live cohort

1120
01:26:34.079 --> 01:26:38.520
and I just finished the first part. The second part will start at the

1121
01:26:38.600 --> 01:26:41.720
end of August and round till October. So if you if you want to

1122
01:26:41.800 --> 01:26:45.359
get um and you know, see
me every week on zoom teaching you magic,

1123
01:26:45.680 --> 01:26:50.560
that's your best bet um. Also, the other big course I have

1124
01:26:50.800 --> 01:26:55.680
is called Thought Taro Magic, which
is on the thought Taro, but it's

1125
01:26:55.720 --> 01:26:58.920
not so much like a course where
I teach how you you how to read

1126
01:26:59.079 --> 01:27:01.520
the cards, even if there is
a lesson on that, and I go

1127
01:27:02.439 --> 01:27:08.960
quite in deep how the thought Taro
reads very differently than your normal taro,

1128
01:27:09.319 --> 01:27:15.399
but it's mostly twenty two pathworkings or
recorded where you can actually go into you

1129
01:27:15.439 --> 01:27:21.119
know, light trans states and get
inside the cards and pretty much have almost

1130
01:27:21.159 --> 01:27:26.920
like an induced psychedelic experience of the
cards. I just wrapped that up.

1131
01:27:27.039 --> 01:27:31.399
All the material is available for self
based study. Everybody would took it say

1132
01:27:31.479 --> 01:27:35.479
that it's the best thing I've done
so far. So I'm very I'm very

1133
01:27:35.520 --> 01:27:41.640
happy how that turned out. Finally, well, I mean, we're recording

1134
01:27:41.720 --> 01:27:46.039
this on Monday and on Thursday.
This week I will announce my third courts

1135
01:27:46.079 --> 01:27:50.439
which is called to be called the
Holier Dean Angel Experience, where I'm gonna

1136
01:27:50.479 --> 01:27:55.880
teach you all that I cannot teach
you how to invoke the Holier Dean Angel,

1137
01:27:56.079 --> 01:28:00.359
but I can give you all the
historical background, how the on the

1138
01:28:00.399 --> 01:28:04.960
whole Gardian Angel changes from you know, its roots in the maybe the Greek

1139
01:28:05.039 --> 01:28:11.439
magical papyri, then into the Abramelian
operation and the Book of Abramelion, and

1140
01:28:11.560 --> 01:28:17.159
then how it translates into Telemma,
and how it's actually quite a different experience

1141
01:28:17.359 --> 01:28:23.439
from you know, from the precursors
to the telemic understanding of it um.

1142
01:28:23.600 --> 01:28:26.560
Then this is going to be like
going to be on sale by the end

1143
01:28:26.600 --> 01:28:31.000
of the week and will run from
October to December twenty twenty three. But

1144
01:28:31.119 --> 01:28:34.399
then again, usually all the courses
I do, I always do like live

1145
01:28:34.479 --> 01:28:40.479
cohorts and then everything is recorded edited
and people can sign up at any time

1146
01:28:41.079 --> 01:28:45.680
to do self paid studies. On
my website. You also find like,

1147
01:28:45.239 --> 01:28:49.119
you know, one shot classes.
I have one on Magic and Crowe,

1148
01:28:49.279 --> 01:28:55.239
I one on Babylon, I wan
on Esoteric Freemasery. These are like,

1149
01:28:55.479 --> 01:28:59.319
you know, if you want to
spend an evening learning atopic and you don't

1150
01:28:59.319 --> 01:29:02.840
know anything about it, maybe that's
that's a good way of of spussing any

1151
01:29:02.880 --> 01:29:06.279
meaning we know it with me.
Um, and that's about it. Um.

1152
01:29:06.960 --> 01:29:10.159
I'm you know, if you want
to follow me on social media,

1153
01:29:10.199 --> 01:29:15.800
I am Marco V Schooling Team pretty
much everywhere. Um. Yeah, thank

1154
01:29:15.800 --> 01:29:17.680
you for being Yeah, thank you
for coming. Yeah, Like I know,

1155
01:29:17.720 --> 01:29:19.720
it's been a couple of months,
a couple of months in the making,

1156
01:29:19.760 --> 01:29:24.479
but we haven't glad. Yeah,
I am absolutely it was fantastic.

1157
01:29:24.640 --> 01:29:26.439
Thank you, Thank you guys.
Awesome. Well, thanks Marco. I

1158
01:29:26.520 --> 01:29:30.279
appreciate it, all right, Miss
Brittany. So that was a that was

1159
01:29:30.319 --> 01:29:32.800
a fucking fun interview. Let's be
Yeah, what a riveting conversation. I

1160
01:29:32.960 --> 01:29:38.359
feel very energized after that. Yeah, it's funny because we discussed like I

1161
01:29:38.439 --> 01:29:40.800
kind of felt sick. Before we
started, we were having a bunch of

1162
01:29:40.840 --> 01:29:44.800
issues technology, like on the tech
side, And now I feel really good.

1163
01:29:45.079 --> 01:29:47.159
Yeah, it's always happens with ELM
and like I said in the interview,

1164
01:29:47.239 --> 01:29:51.600
it always happens with magic, with
Thelma, with anything to do with

1165
01:29:53.600 --> 01:29:57.359
with this side of the weird.
So no, absolutely, in the books

1166
01:29:57.399 --> 01:30:00.560
great. I recommend anyone who even
has a inkling and too. Maybe this

1167
01:30:00.680 --> 01:30:03.760
is for me. I just want
to learn more. It's a great resource

1168
01:30:04.479 --> 01:30:09.720
to start. And it's not that
we talked about this on during the interview,

1169
01:30:09.760 --> 01:30:12.399
but there's too many books that over
explain and they want to kind of

1170
01:30:12.439 --> 01:30:15.760
stay on their pedestal of look,
how smart I am. This isn't one

1171
01:30:15.800 --> 01:30:19.920
of those books. Now, I
will say, when you first read through

1172
01:30:20.000 --> 01:30:25.720
it is it's complicated. It's a
complicated subject. Yeah. But what I

1173
01:30:25.880 --> 01:30:29.159
was most shocked about when I read
through this book was the fact of how

1174
01:30:29.279 --> 01:30:33.560
much I retained months after I put
the book down for the first time,

1175
01:30:33.720 --> 01:30:36.439
which we talked about that in the
first part, that before we ye the

1176
01:30:36.720 --> 01:30:44.439
main episode, I retained a lot
of knowledge throughout studying this book, really

1177
01:30:44.640 --> 01:30:47.279
and to be able to recall that
knowledge and have an active conversation with you

1178
01:30:47.399 --> 01:30:51.399
about it was very surprising to me
because it's complicated. Well, a lot

1179
01:30:51.439 --> 01:30:55.239
of these books and even we love
Uncle Allen, but some of his books

1180
01:30:55.239 --> 01:30:59.079
I have to read two or three
times to really grasp, if not more.

1181
01:30:59.359 --> 01:31:01.600
Yeah, and it's nothing against his
writing style, but it's the subject

1182
01:31:02.239 --> 01:31:05.359
is very complicated, and you have
to approach it, like you said in

1183
01:31:05.399 --> 01:31:08.640
the interview, as a student.
The second you trying to approach it.

1184
01:31:08.680 --> 01:31:12.199
Of oh why I already understand.
I understand the capitalistic tree of Life.

1185
01:31:12.840 --> 01:31:15.920
You may understand. You may have
studied the sep roths and that's awesome,

1186
01:31:15.359 --> 01:31:19.800
but how they apply to Thelma,
for example, may be completely different than

1187
01:31:19.920 --> 01:31:23.880
what you're used to studying. It's
also could be a new perspective too.

1188
01:31:24.000 --> 01:31:28.199
You can always gain knowledge from a
new perspective. Yeah. So with that

1189
01:31:28.279 --> 01:31:30.520
being said, miss pretty unless there's
something else that you'd like to add,

1190
01:31:30.760 --> 01:31:32.680
go check out Marco. I agree. I think we're not have to add

1191
01:31:32.720 --> 01:31:39.840
this episode of our Strange World to
our never ending but are always growing Tales

1192
01:31:39.920 --> 01:32:12.319
from the Dark m M.