M he was called cold. That was he was cold, Barn. What's
going on up there? Could be the most important event in history? Now
I am coll destroy our worlds, I said. I hope this is close
to hell. It's all never again. Hello and welcome to the TALESM a
Dark podcast. I'm your host, Bob. You're with my lovely co host
Brittany. Hey, guys, what's up Brittany? How is it going today?
It's going good? How are you? I mean you sound exhausted?
It could it be the fact that I forgot to turn the air conditioner on
in the studio again, Yes, that's absolutely that fact. Actually, may
it also be coupled with the fact that it's currently like eight forty five at
night and it's still ninety degrees outside. It's also that as well. Yeah,
something about this year's heat wave. I'm telling you guys, it has
been I don't remember anything quite like this where it's this hot in the early
evening like this. Yeah. But with that being said, miss Britany,
we have a very exciting guest today, Yes we do. It's been literally
months in the making. Ye. So when it comes to certain books,
I think I set myself up for failure where I'm like, you know what
I used to read a whole Harry Potter in three days doesn't really apply to
a moderns for one. Yeah. But this book, like I said,
it's been months in the making, where we reached out to Marco months ago
and we're like, hey, we would love to have you on the show,
just give me a few days to really go through this book. And
I remember the look on your face when you got it. You got about
seven eight pages and you're like, hey, hey, this isn't going to
be just a few days. No, oh god, no, no it
was. It's a study and it has homework, and it's a work book
for sure. It's that and everything else in between. Because I do know
that you had a very interesting response when you first got into the book.
You're like, you know, I actually understand some of this and it's making
me crazy. And that's how I knew it was like, Oh, this
is gonna be some good shit, because you approached anything with the occult and
mysticism and magic with a very weird, like scientific approach of like, well,
it's a direct contradiction to everything I ever study when it comes to magic,
and it's so hilated because when I have a question about the stuff,
You're the first person I asked like, Hey, how does this stef Roth
really interchange with this one? You're like, well, the second law of
motion doesn't really fucking apply here, but this is how it works. And
I'm like, okay, perfect love. It makes me angry, and that's
one thing. It really does take me a long time to study different aspects
of a coal and magic because I'm angry about it. I'm very very angry
about it because I'm like, this shouldn't fucking work. Yeah, why am
I even studying this? Holy shit, this fucking works. That's that's what
I loved when it was so weird when you initially were like, I think
I want to try this. I want to I want to see how deep
this rabbit hole goes. And now you're still digging deeper and deeper and deeper.
Yeah, so real quick, before we give Marco a call, though
I want to give a we don't give a whole lot of like media suggestions
here on the show. Go watch Cave of Bones on Netflix. Oh,
that was very very good. The idea behind the homeowner Letty recently discovered species.
It would it be it'd be a species, right, it is a
species. The idea between the homo. I don't want to give anything away.
It's pre homo homo sapiens. Yes, and this definitely challenges the the
spirituality of man, for there's no other real way to say it. And
it's extremely interesting because they don't approach it to bash a religion or a faith,
or they don't see like, hey, Christianity is a fucking myth because
we discovered this species. Now, the whole point of this was evidence of
belief of life after death in some form some way, whether that be resurrection,
whether that be Christianity, Catholicism, Judaism, Buddhism, what have you.
It doesn't matter. It is the evidence itself, the ritual itself of
celebration of life after death. Yes, that is very very important, especially
in these very very primal prim primate subspecies. Yeah. So, and it's
interesting because it raised question because I correct me if I'm wrong. But there
was a point in the show where they had sent either photos or maybe parts
of the ex exo skeleton other specialists. You said, yeah, Homeo Nalletti's
brain was too small to do something like bury they're dead and then they discovered
proof of it. And that's what's bizarre to me, because I do want
to kind of explain why it's interesting, because I watched some online reviews and
people are like, yeah, this is all staged, and I'm like,
which part is staged? And then you listen to their review they think that
these people man made this cave that they found the Noletti in, and that
these are hundreds of years old stalactites and slag mine. Apparently it's all man
made, and that they had filed down bones of earlier Homo sapiens and put
them in here in in order to like spite. The Catholic Church was a
lot of the explanations being done, and I watched a few church sermons that
are like, yeah, if you guys watch us in our congregation, you're
to hell. Even I can't save you. And I'm like, hang on
a second. That was a very like direct threat. Show me, show
me an exodus where it says you can't learn about the home on Aletti please
someone. Now, the impact of that being true would be the fact that
it's not just religion that's involved. We are still actively learning our own human
history. To this day, we learn things new every single day. Yeah,
and not only that, but one fact that I like to talk about
that I was actually told in high school it's either within one or two years,
history and science books become irrelevant, like printed textbooks that you use with
your children who go to school. Within one or two years become irrelevant because
we learned so much new stuff and how different things intertwined, how different things
worked. That it's it's pretty fascinating how much we don't actually know, so
to lie about a whole subspecies would be damning for the entire scientific community,
not just religion. Absolutely, and it kind of build on that. When
I went through college and I got my degree in business management, they don't
even teach. What's kind of funny is we watched the what was the movie
The Big Short where they discussed subprime mortgages in prime I hold recession of two
thousand and eighty. Yeah. The way that I was taught, how that
all went down versus what actually happened was obscure and out of date within a
year of of me finishing my degree. That's what That's all. It shows,
like how fast knowledge changes and something is simplistic as business, So when
you're discussing something like the human brain and an expansion of consciousness. It's no
telling how fast these things change. And now let's apply that to magic,
because we are in a ever evolving, ever changing society of different magicians,
different magicians, different ceremonial magic. And Thelma, which is one thing we
actually taught we will talk about today with Marco, is the fact that Thelma
is basically brand new in the grand scheme of things. So let's give him
a call. Let's do it, all right, miss Britney. So we
are joined by Marco Visconti, the author of the Alistir Crowley Manual. And
there are a few people that I hold an extremely high regard when it comes
to this topic, and realistically Alan Greenfield's about it. So to get a
chance to talk to Marco, I'm extremely excited. So I'm I don't want
to waste anywhere else as time. So Marco, how are you doing,
buddy? Well, thank you for the fantastic introduction, and it's great to
be here. I'm fine here in London. We kind of skipped summer.
We went straight back into into otumn, which is not ideal for my Italian
bones. I need some system sun right about. Hopefully August will be will
be better. But apart from that, everything is fine. I'm glad to
be here, glad to have you. Yeah, absolutely so. I want
to jump right into it. The when I saw your book first advertised on
Twitter, I was like, holy shit, this is going to ruffle some
feathers. Oh yeah. The first off, kudos to you for printing it
in hardback. There are too many occult books that are printed in, you
know, the softcover. And nothing against the printing agencies or what have you,
but if you're gonna use it as an essential tool in your tool kit,
it's hard to kind of take a soft cover everywhere you go, especially
if you're traveling, if you're doing any kind of magic and a different area
beside your home, it's hard to take something with you that's a softcover.
I would agree with you. I was very very happy when Watkins, which
is my publisher, told me that the book would be on hardcover. Of
course, you know you've seen it it is. It is a mass market
hardcover right in the sense that the paper is not like the best paper out
there. The art coover the core itself is not like the best, like
fine leather, which is you know there you got this um, this tendency
in occult publishing that either you have super cheap paperbacks or you have super high,
high hand expensive hardbacks. I was very happy that Watkins was keen on
doing pretty much the middle of the road. Right. This is a manual.
This is something that I hope people we read. But I hope people
we used to uh to do magic, you know, to practice magic,
and so you know, as you said, having something that's a little bit
sturdy and maybe I don't know, if a candle walks, you know,
goes onto it, you can scrub it off. It doesn't burn that easily.
That's better. And yes, maybe that happened to me a couple of
times over the years. We'll talk about its catching fire. Now. It's
hilarious because I reached out to you basically as soon as the book was available
for purchase. I think I actually I reached out right when it was announced
for like pre purchase, and I said, yeah, give me a few
weeks, Marco, I want to have you on the show. I want
to discuss this. And then I got it and I was like, Okay,
this isn't a few weeks. This is a few months, and then
a few months goes by and I'm like, this might be a few years.
Let's just Marco on the show now. So I think I forgot about
because it's it's not like a you know, a novel that's a you know,
cover to cover read. You just do three chapters a day and you're
done. It's very much a workbook, but it's also a workbook, and
you can get lost very easily, like where you're thinking, I'm gonna do
ten pages, Oh I've done sixty. What the hell happened? I got
so enthralled with what was being written. So I gotta give you some credit
for that, and also just some major thanks for sticking it out and still
coming on the show after several months. I'm not hearing back from us.
Oh you know, first of all, don't worry about that. Like you,
you've you've been fantastic in the sense that I could tell you stories of
people that you know, contacted me as you did right away and then completely
ghosted me. I don't know if maybe they read the book and they realized
that there is a little bit of you know, controversyinda in here and in
the book, especially at the end when I speak about, you know,
magic orders and if you should join them, and what I noticed in them.
I'm gonna get a little bit spicy from this very beginning, but I
noticed in the in the podcast milieu, especially in Europe not so much in
the States, is that people want to really be on the good side of
everybody, which it's kind of hard to be if you ask me, right.
So anyway, the long story short, I'm I'm very I knew you,
I know that I would be here at some point, and I'm happy
to be here. You know, a long lass, and it's not even
a lot of lass, because you think about it. The book came out
in February, and so it's what six months now, right, six months
later, But if you think about it, the book itself tells you that
if you stick to the plan that is provided by the by the lessons in
the book, that would that should the last six to nine months. So
we're right on schedule. It's exactly well. And I also want to applaud
you for being approachable because I want to tell you this quick story totally the
podcast. A few times, I've only met a handful of self proclaims Elamites
out in the wild, so to speak, and it's like a pokemon,
you're trying to catch them. But we were. We were on a trip
down to New Orleans, Louisiana, and very early on, so the early
timeline, I think this is twenty twenty when we went down there and had
this experience. So this is the first year of us having Tales from the
Dark. Yeah. So we make a trip down to New Orleans, and
I was just interested in the hoodoo culture and just getting to soak everything in,
you know, because there's New Orleans is such a beautiful miss miss mishmatch
of just so many different types of magic and so many different types of people
and cultures. Yeah. Yeah, and we so I'm like, let's go
look first esoteric shops. Let's look first miss shops to maybe get some cool
books. And I had made the mistake and I said, do you have
anything written by Alistair Crawley? And this woman her ears peak up, her
face gets read and she goes, it is not Crowley, it is Crowley,
like holy, and that's how I know that you don't know what you're
talking about. I was like, whoa, oh wow, that's a lot.
I'm just and I said no. She went on this twenty minute escapade
about how wrong Bob was, and I sat there in the corner. I'm
like, I'm just gonna look at the books and pretend I'm not with him.
I will let him get scouted. Well, and I explained to her,
said, I'm very new. I wouldn't even call myself initiated. I'm
in the pre initiation phase where I'm interested. And she's like, well,
this isn't where you start. You do not start here. This is not
this is Crowley is not for beginners. This is where you end. And
I'm like, Okay, this is horrible. And if anyone else had this
experience, I would understand why they'd be like all felamites or jackasses, and
I'm not dealing with them period. Well, come to find out from a
magic shop that once we went back to New Orleans, we went the next
year, went back to win to another magic shop. She was actually excommunicated
from her from her her con Yeah, the the she was with two minor
orders down there, and they kicked she was kicked out of both of them
for being terrible, for hexing folks, for just being not a good person
to have around. You know, I wonder if I know this person,
and it might be that I do know who we're talking about. I've been
to New Orleans a couple of times in my life a lot, one of
the most beautiful and weird cities in the world, and it's it's one of
those places that where magic is so steeped into the culture and and so it's
still living in the you know, in the everyday culture that you get all
sorts of strange personalities and ego and narcissism, et cetera, et cetera,
exter which subtly, in my experience, it's you know, part and parts
of the occult life, right, yeah, um, the you know what
the part The problem with Telemites, first of all is that they exist,
I would say, But the second point is that a lot of Telemites really
aren't like they're more like Kroeites in the sense that they really want to be
krow A two point two. They really want to live up to Kroe's shenanigans
and often horrible personality. Kroe was a very complex human being, without doubts,
a genius, a polymath, but also somebody that I don't think I
would have ever wanted him as a friend or even as an acquaintance, right.
Um. It happens with a lot of in history. We know that
a lot of most of the times, the like incredible genius tend to be
difficult people to to to deal with and to to live with. Um.
And what suddens me is that if in my direct experience as yours, right,
a lot of Telemites really want to be like him in the sense that
really want to be unapproachable. There's almost like this area is or of superiority
and what you what you what you just told me. It's something that I've
seen it happen countless times. And you wouldn't believe how many, uh you
know, bad bad reviews, death threats and other things that I got because
of the book I wrote, obviously, but in general, because I try
to be uh you know, I try to leave all this this chroleanism behind,
and I try to remember that Krowle himself wanted Celemma as a magical philosophy
of the New Eion to be for everyone. These people tend to forget that.
In the introduction of magic with magic interim practice liber Aba, which was
Chrole's attempt at creating its magnum opus books Book of Magic for the Masses.
In the interaction, he says this, and I, you know, I
reported this in my own book. He says that, you know, he
wants magic to be for everybody, for the banker, for the pugilist,
for the housewife. Of course he failed doing that, because if you try
to read magic interim practice, well good luck if you understand anything, having
you know, no background whatsoever in an occult in utica, any magic chrole.
You know, Chrowley really expected so much from its readers because he was
this genius poly mouth, right. But um, I would argue that when
you know, when this person told you that maybe you shouldn't start with Crowley,
maybe that was true up until my book. And that's I'm going to
be a little bit like this. But I do think that I really wanted
to focus on the things that everybody can do from from the get go,
right like if you don't know and if you don't know anything about magic,
I hope that you can, and I think you can. You can get
my book and you can get on with the practice. I don't expect every
anybody to, you know, read the book once and say, oh I
got everything right, because as you know, having read the book, I
get into place, into moment, into parts in the second part of the
book where I speak of tell them a proper that they get very philosophical.
And unless you unless you have a background in philosophy, or unless you've been
reading on the subject for a while, it can get a little bit confusing.
Also because tell Thema is confusing by nature in the sense that Crowley did
a lot to try and flesh it out, and the people that came after
Crowley, uh, they added their their bits and bobs. But Crowley,
sorry, but tell Themma really is a very young philosophy. It is meant
to be, you know, the philosophy of the eon of the child and
maybe this idea of you know, childless childlike wonder, which is not always
very clear, right, It's a bit ephemeral. It's almost like encoded in
the in the philosophy itself. So I wonder if we can finally move into
you know, into for real, into a new eon where people can wander
into a metaphysical shop and not having to be rebuffed because they haven't read all
the material all they say Crowley, I mean, yeah, I mean.
Crowley famously said my name's rhymes with holy and not with Fowley. But at
the end of the day, it's a name who cares. Yeah, yeah,
I love that approach because we have this to this day. I actually
I want to throw a few things actual real quick. For one, I'm
using two workbooks on the regular, your book and then Cabala Magic and the
Great Work of Self Transformation by Liam Thomas Christopher. I want to say,
what's interesting is you're you both had a very similar approach in the beginning,
which was you're going to get what you put in and you can do it
at your own pace. And we have an entire bookshelf full of these self
transformation books or books that are you know, to approach the topic, and
none of them, yeah, none of them really say like, do this
at your own pace. It's if you don't, if you don't do it
at this level and you're not here in three months, you have to start
all over and you're terrible, and it's it's it was a very big,
like breadth of fresh air to read through yours, like, oh, this
is completely okay to not understand something. It's completely okay to approach it with
a modern mindset in comparison to I have to go through three hundred philosophy books,
figure out who this guy was as a person and figure out his diet
on a Tuesday to understand the approach well from also, and I kind of
wanted to hear your thoughts on this, Marco. Was that especially connecting to
the Felamites that we were just talking about. I feel like the whole point,
especially after reading through and working through your manual, is that we're supposed
to expand upon magic. It's not setting stone. None of this is setting
stone, and that is something that we all have to actively work towards bettering.
It's the new software specifically that is making me say this is that you
can't just be stuck on just Crowley. It's not his word, isn't God,
his word, isn't fact. It's something to build off of and expand
upon and even in some cases change if it's no longer useful to the system
as a whole. Yeah, I mean, like you know, this is
definitely my approach to that, and I think it's the approach of a lot
of those work with Crowley system and so in Telemma and left Mark on Telemict,
I'm thinking Frederi academ thinking of Kenneth Grant Nemah. You have to remember
also that there is all there's another side of Telemites out there that really fight
against this almost like secularization attempts, in the sense that they really want to
believe the fairy tale that you know, Crowley was the profit of the Nunion,
which is something I believe, Like, I mean, Crowley was the
profit of the union, but for the way I see the term profit,
it was someone who opened the door and you know, received messages, try
to decode the messages and left the door open after he died, right where
for this the other the other side, the other type of Telemites, which
suddenly they are the ones that you tend to find into organize or groups like
or the Temporarientis or the AA. They really want to believe that Crowley was
Jesus to point out and so because you know, the idea is that if
Crowley was used to go into and so it was you know perfect, you
have to like stick to what he said to the letter, etc. Etc.
Well, if that is true, then they're not doing you know,
they're not pursuing you know, pointlessness because you know they have some sort of
divine right. Um, that's bad. That is there to back their efforts
in in towards spiritual evolution. That theory is Oh, I'm so sorry.
I was just gonna say that theory in itself seems to abandon the main mission
of finding your true will exactly. I mean, that's exactly what I was
going to say, right, Yeah, sorry, I didn't mean to interrupts
you. That's the first thing I thought of. No, no, But
but you got it. I mean, that's that's precisely it, you know.
Famously, Crowley also said that he didn't want to father a flock like
literally in his in one of the famous quotes that you find online. But
fame so you repeated many times that you didn't want to have to have,
you know, mindless drones after him and low and be old whenever you forsake
securitism in trying to enshrine absolute religious religious or ugiosity. If you want,
then what you get you get flox, You get you know, drones,
and you get people that we doubt, you know, a true master guiding
them, even if it's dead. But you know, like knowing that that
this person was almost like anointed by the divine. Well, then whatever they
do, it's pointless. Whereby Telemma is really about recognizing that each one of
us has this divine connection to the Godhead. Right. Telemma famously says,
you know, every man, every woman is a star. It's one of
the famous aphorism from the Book of the Law. This aphorism has been used
multiple times in many ways, and item believe that this in this phrase implies
that everybody knows their true will from the very beginning. Everybody is divine from
the very beginning. Then he pretty much, I don't have to do anything.
You're fine, right, everybody has the potential. Everybody, regardless of
race, gender, situation in life. You have the potential to strive towards
it. But it's your will, not Crowe and not you know, other
gurus, not mine, not other writers. You know. Um, I
like to say that every time I speak about these subjects, I'm really,
I'm really, I'm not. I'm not a guru. I'm not. I
really don't like the term teacher really much. Maybe tutor is better, right,
personal trainer. If you want to see this as a metaphysical gym,
I can be the person that can tell you how many reps you have to
do, which machines to use if you want to build up yourself right,
believe it or not. This my position, this one that I just communicated.
It's seen as absolutely heretical. Wrong. There must be some sort of
strict hierarchy, there must be masters, there must be you know, annoying
to teachers et. I mean to me, that's as anti technical as the
tenets of Telemma as it gets. But hey, what can I say?
Like we really are in the infancy of this magical philosophy. Next year it
will be one hundred and twenty years since the reception of the Book of the
Law, which, of course hundred twenty years from our limited human perspective or
it's a long time. But in the grand scheme of things, that's what
that's a second right. So if Telemma will survive as long as Buddhism or
Christianity or Hinduism, I've survived and time hotel one hundred and twenty years,
it's nothing right, it's dropped about early. Yeah, I mean, I
study other religions the first underd and twenty. We barely know what Christians were
doing in the first hundred and twenty years, right, the Gospels started to
be right to be written down between forty two hundred years after the alleged death
of Jesus Christ, if he ever existed as a you know, as as
a real person. I really believe maybe there were more Jesus christis that,
you know, get conflated into one individual. But that's maybe for another day.
The point is that, you know, we know that one hundred and
twenty years of Christianity, pretty much nothing happened, Like a lot of him
fighting happened, a lot of different ideas were going. Christiani was going many
different directions, and pretty much this is what episode has been happening here as
well. We will see, I mean we won't, but in maybe in
two hundred years, it's going to be interesting where Telemma will be in two
three hundred years, if if if, if it did survive, and so
if the promise of the new Ian was a true promise, right, something
that eventually manifested itself fully. Um, of course, you know, talking
about Ian's I speak about briefly, but I guess quite clearly in the book
about what the concept of eonyx is, which really comes from many different uh
precursors maybe in case of Crawley, the more direct was Darby's dispensionalism, where
pretty much the idea is that you know, after you know, with each
passing, with the passing of time, new new spiritual laws are enshrined and
shared with humanity, and the new ways of UM, you know, achieving
spiritual evolution became available. That's what when I speak about the ion of Horus
or the ion of the child, or the telemic here I'm speaking about.
You can think of it as you know, a new operating system that it's
being installed onto the the universe itself, right, and you can always use
all the operating systems, but maybe if you want to get all the better
UM you know, the best apps or the best the best programs and whatnot,
you want to use the UM. The last one. The problem with
you know, with the current overating systems is they usually they're full of bugs
and those bugs need to be you know, ironed out over over time.
And that's exactly the problem with Telemma. It's new. It offers you a
lot of new and fancy things to do if you know how to use it,
but there's a lot of you know, environments and still experimentation that needs
to be go and the bugs that needs to be squashed out. No.
Absolutely, Now do you think any of the gate keeping the you have to
be an annointed teacher comes from Crowley being You know, he did self proclaim
that he was a Magister templi at the end, meaning for those who maybe
are informed. Basically to my understanding, he's on the same level as the
Secret Chiefs at that point, and I believe he got there after the Inokian
calls an Algeria. I might be mixing some of that up, but do
you think that because he was on this level of the Secret Chiefs, we're
kind of intertwining the the the order of the Golden Dawn. That's why some
people are saying you have to be an annointed teacher or else this guy is
just full of shit. Well, uh long, you know, to answer
your question straightforward, yes, in the sense that Crowley Krey really did to
believe in um, in the idea of of this line of initiation that comes
um you know, unbroken from the ascended masters, right, and the idea
of the ascended Masters comes from theosophy, and theosophy got this idea from Hinduism
pretty much. Okay, the idea where you have like the the avatars of
the of you know, Ava Kishvara, which is you know, this um
almost like this guide of humanity that in times always comes back in different incarnations
to guide humanity to spiritual evolution. These ideas get filtered into the also,
you get filtered to the Golden Down, gets filtered into Curley. Curley really
did believe these things. You're right, he achieved the grade of Magister Temple
after the receiving Libert four hundred and eighteen, or the Vision and the Voice
in Busada, in the desert of Algeria, with Victor Neuburg undertaking, you
know, extensive sexomagical operations, a lot of drugs. That's where the incredible
visions come from. By the way, obviously, you know when you are
in a heightened state of consciousness, deep transits, and maybe you're also ingesting
psychedelics, that's where you get those crazy visions that that really I mean,
And it was great because it was able to translate those into the page.
Now, that wasn't even the highest grade the Cruley claimed for himself. He
claimed to have gone further, like in the in the Scheme of the grades
of the Golden Dome, which are mirroring the map, the map of reality
given by the Tree of Life over Medicabala. You have, well you have
ten sef ten visible sefarot and one invisible sefera. That is that, and
then of course each grade is mapped onto one of those sefarots. Well,
he claimed to have gone past Bina, which is you know, the sea
attributed to the Magistra Temple or Master of the Temple, and then he went
into Hochma as Amegus and even took a tir as an epsisimus. Now,
if you ask me, if you really understand what it means to achieve those
levels of consciousness, it's impossible for anybody who's embodied in a body. Sorry
for the obvious recursive there, but if you're embodied, you cannot really be
a magister template because the magister template are the ascended masters, are the ones
who left this mortal coil behind, and when they come back to guide humanity,
they come back in um in subtle forms. Right, yeah, exactly
in that. You know, that's the same for a magus, that the
same even even more for an absisimus. So you know, some people will
argue that the grades of the AA, and so the ones that Croa was
using, well they almos means that, you know, when you get to
a higher level of adapt tod so you've known your you're known your true will,
and achieve the knowledge and conversation of the hoy Garden angel in Tifferet,
you become an adept. Then you have a little bit more work to do,
because in Tiffert you're perfectly balanced. But then you have to unbalance yourself
by achieving you know, and then cassatt on the tree of life. From
that point onward, if if you keep you know, working, you can
have glimpses of higher degrees and grades, and you can embody them, but
to truly embody, you know, to truly achieve them while still embodied,
I don't know. So, for instance, what I'm telling you sorry for
the tour, it's that I don't know. If Crowley was a magister templary
right, he definitely claimed to be. He claimed to be more than that.
He was most certainly a very high adept on adaptus exemptus. That's the
term of maybe even further in the in the in the term of the AA,
which is the magical order that he founded as the continuation of the Golden
Down. He was a babe of the Abyss. That is, you know,
somebody who's like ready to jump into the abyss. But a lot of
people make a big fuss out of this, which is so interesting to me
because it's how we get everyone online in this day and age to claim that
they can jump the abyss from the get go. When I first started my
magical path, it was made very clear to me that you would have to
work for many years to balance the elements, get to know who you are,
how you work in correlation with the universe around you, and then after
many years of work, you possibly would be able to you know, have
enough information and knowledge and practis to invoke your whole yar dean angel and establish
conversation with the whole your Dean Angel, and so with there you help then
discovering your true will, and that would be like a big deal. And
then maybe you would then spend the rest of your life getting ready to jump
across the abyss. What happened in the twenty five almost more than twenty five
years, like we're actually reaching my almost thirtieth year. I tend to not
think about the ears of Covid as real ears. But hey, they did
it happen? You know, almost thirty years later you jump online and everybody
is a magister template. Everybody got courses or books on how to cross the
abyss. There because the abyss is just the dark night of the soul.
You just have pretty much like to to face your demons and you're done.
That couldn't be further from the truth. It's, you know, the experience
of the abyss. From my understanding, it's the absolute destruction of duality,
and the absolute understanding and understanding is the name of Bena, which is the
sefid that you reach on the other side of the abyss, the understanding of
non duality. How how can everybody just do it by reading a book?
It's beyond my understanding. Maybe I don't get it right, but possibly it
all boils down to the fact that everybody wants to be Crowlate. Everybody wants
to emulate the master. Everybody wants to everybody wants to be, in a
way the superman or the Ubermansch of nietzchean Um, you know, ancestry.
If you want. The problem is that you know you can want these things
and that's absolutely fine. But to want something and be something, you know,
there there's an abyss behind the two. So I really wish again that
we could get to a point where people they are generally interested in magic,
can be happy with their own progress. Maybe magic should they maybe should focus
on magic being helping them into living fuller lives, maybe being you know,
more um aware of the synchronicities around them and making sense of them as we
dout, we dout you know, going into rabbit holes just for the sake
of rabbit holes, which can be all sorts of problems as well. I
mean that is maybe those that is the abyss as well, because the abyss
is this persion, is lack of focus, is lack of um pointedness in
life. But in fact, you know, it's alway. So that's what
I hope. I hope that you know, people get into magic without without
trying to emulate Crawley, without saying, okay, you know, like I
must be a magister template, I must be an adopt in doing. Every
time I teaches, I teach these classes, I always say with a lot
of like, with a lot of size from the from the from the people
at each these things too that maybe one person in a thousand will become an
adept. But when we're talking about people a crossing the abysse, we're talking
about one in a billion. I mean, that's that's the gulf of difference.
That's that's the the absolute of that specific moment. Why why worrying about
something that It's almost like, you know people that always keep um playing the
the roulette or the casinos or the lotto and lose money on money and money
money because they will win one day. What's your odds you're going to win?
Right? Hang invest that money and do something else, right, I
mean, but maybe that's me. Yeah, I don't know if that answer
your question. I definitely went on attention. They definitely did. I just
kind of wanted to add a little bit to that conversation before we drove into
I do want to speak about the Holy Guardian Angel more on depth, if
you're comfortable with that. But we live in a society now that definitely has
way more instant gratification than we have ever seen in human history at period,
and so I think a lot of times when we see these influencers, we
see people who are adepts or claim to be masters of their temple or what
have you. I think that it comes with the fact that they are trying
to get the instant gratification crowd to come to their teachings, to come buy
their book or come do whatever with them that they are, whatever their artillior
motive is. I think that's the crowd they're adhering to. Now, how
absolutely how Thelama evolves with the fact that everyone wants instant graphication. Now,
I think you can get instant graphication from performing your rituals that you have,
and not just yours, but just Thelomatic rituals in general. You do get
instant graphication if you pay attention to how you feel, but it's not the
kind that people are used to, and I think that's what makes Thelama stand
out. But that's also what makes Thelma a risk and the survival and the
continuation of this for lack of better term, religion. No, I think
you absolutely nailed it. First of all, you know, whenever you get
people marketing their courses or their books, you're right like the market the marketing
employees or the marketing hooks is all about you know, do this and you'll
get something right away. Um. Recently I've seen I'm not gonna name names,
but I've seen people you know, marketing, you know, like in
order to get in touch with your archangel, these archangel here's a Siegel.
Look at the Siegel. You're gonna be fine. I shudder because you know
that's that's that's the little snake oil to me. Like, but the reality
there is that what I noticed by rounding the community online that a run for
the last for almost four years now, very few people ever engage with magic,
right, like active actual magic. Yeah, exactly, like you know,
not just reading the book, not just listening to me speak about magic,
not maybe watching a lecture, but actually say, okay, now I'm
going to turn everything off and try and see what it's like to do a
pentagram usual, which you know, one one of the simplest rituals out there.
Um. I can tell you it's maybe less than five percent in my
experience, and I would argue that, you know, um, in my
community, for the most I was able to attract very good people, very
you know, harness seekers, honest seekers, right, but even of those
honest seekers, five percent became actual magicians. Um. You know, I
you know, before we were recording, we were discussing how you know,
both you guys and I you know, started getting more involved into this after
helier right, that really really acted as a as a catalyst for bringing magic
to to to the masses really in the last few years. Um. You
know, when I spoke at Phenomena on two in September twenty twenty, UM,
I got a huge search of patron subscribers and thank you all, if
you're listening, I really appreciate your support, even if if you eventually disappeared
very fast, because what you know, what I know this is that a
lot of people signed in and then they realize, oh, wait a second,
I have to do magic, like I have to take out of my
day exactly just to meditate, to learn to vocalize, to vibrate, to
raise five percent and maybe I'm maybe I'm being very generous with that percentage.
So the point is, you know, to go back to the point we're
making at the beginning, is that like if if people never do magic,
they'll never realize that they can get that that the gratification they seek. But
they have to do it, like they have to just at least, you
know, do the exercise, I mean, believe it or not. This
is the same kind of a percentage that you find in people that you know
after the winter holidays and Christmas, they put on wait and they say I'm
going to go to the gym, and they sign up to the gym,
and then of the people don't go to the gym, who sticks is only
the five percent. So the problem is that since magic is not um,
it's not an exact science, and I argue, maybe it's not a science
at all. It's magic. Uh, you can you can sell people fake
um, you know, instant gratification because you can sell them this idea that
you know, you can watch a sigil and say some gibberish and something will
happen. Because what usually what happens pretty much, I guess you'll you noticed
it is that then you get you know, almost like control groups around sorry,
support groups around this this approach, right, you get forums that speak
about how people that talk to each other about how this technique was revolutionary and
worked. And I'm telling you this because I got him by I did into
one of this first. Like I said, I'm not going to name names,
but I got invited into the forms of a series of very popular books
written by folks that clearly are using pseudonyms, and I'm not going to say
more. And I always I read one of this book, I did a
review for one of these books, and I was like, I don't understand
why you have this has been clearly a commercial success. I don't get it
because if you do, if you do these things, nothing will happen.
But Daniel, I was invited into this Facebook group with thousands of people,
and I can tell you none, none could tell me what did, what
they were experiencing it. Their experience of the whole yer Dan Angel was nothing
like what I experienced or what other people experienced that I could prove that they
went through the experience the correct way of doing it, and in general what
Crowley says that it did the experience of the whole yer Dan Angel is But
it doesn't matter anymore because you have get these thousands of people talking to themselves
that they had something. And I think that's a big problem out there because
it's how can you tell somebody your experience is not real? It's very difficult,
right in the sense that maybe maybe you also shouldn't in the sense that
like think about it, like who who are you? Who am I to
come to anybody yeah and say hey, you know like that that so I
elected to just not engage anymore. But I can tell you, I know
that these people are having no experiences. They're just convincing themselves. And now,
when you say the experiences, are you saying like Theelluma related experiences like
with a Holy Garden Angel? Are you saying magic in general, like let's
say the other branches who do and voodoo and other things like that. In
this particular case, I'm talking about the Holy Garden Angel experience. Okay,
like that, that particular experience. When it comes to magic as a you
know, as in a wider uh spectrum of the term, it's very it's
very hard because you know, I can I can only speak of what I
am and I'm familiar with, and of course I am. Even if I
dabbled a little bit in hoodoo, I'm not an expert um. Even if
I dabbled a little bit and maybe more than doubled in what's cooled like cool
to Sabbati and so Sabatic witchcraft, I'm not an expert um. But then
again, who's the expert with this one? Stab topics? Because you know,
think about it right, Um, either you are exactly you live in
UM in a very specific kind of culture where you do have experts like you
know, think of I think I'm thinking of Haiti right where boo boo doo
or voodoo boo. It's difficult to pronounce it as well, especially but you
know voo doo. Okay, that's the kind of pronunciation. Um, it
is so real, it's such like it's it's a religion that it's so much
lived by by Haitians. Where you know, a mambo or hung gun will
be experts because they are they represent a specific role in the society, right.
But outside of that um the culture, everybody can call themselves a hung
gun and maybe they went through to the cancer initiation. But if how can
I I can even be sure if I'm not part of that culture as well?
Right, So long story short, I will never say that, you
know, anybody's experience is not real, but I can tell you that from
what I can I can ascertain from from where I stand, there's a lot
of um seeking for instant gratification on things that are absolutely you know, as
far as possible from providing instant gratification. But it almost doesn't matter anymore,
because you get thousands and thousands and thousands of people online that have been convinced
that all they needed to do was to buy a book back to what we're
seeing very cheap pipe paperback on Amazon, and they would have the experience,
and how do you you know, maybe in many way, in many ways,
that's a testament that these people did a very good magic spell in the
sense that they cast a very you know, enduring glamor. But it's glamour,
it's not truth, and it's a big problem if you ask me.
But I don't have the solution, and I don't think I don't think there's
going to be a solution. What I think is that those who are truly
motivated to go deeper in their spiritual evolution and maybe having really want to have
the expense of the whole year than Angel, they will find their ways.
Even if they started with this practices that for me are completely pointless, eventually
they realize, hey, wait a second. For instance, Crowe speaks of
the whole year than Angel as in terms very similar to what is described as
samadi in yoga, So you know, union with God, and I don't
feel any union with God I'm not getting any noses out of this. Um.
It just something that felt good for you for a weekend, and that's
it. Maybe they will, they will go and seek deeper ways of maybe
truer ways of having this experience, or maybe not. You know, at
the end of the day, remember five percent. I mean that's my experience.
Only five percent of the people that signed up to everything I've ever done
are still doing magic to this day. It's a bit sad. Well.
One thing I do want to add is the mantra that we really have for
tails in the dark. And one thing that we've seen across all realms of
weird, whether that be magic, whether that be UFOs, ghost goblins,
you name it, is that there are no experts. Now, while you
said that there are, um, there's definitely societal roles that experts have a
very large hand at play. And then do you have a very important role
when it comes to understanding anything that cannot be air quotes proven by science.
There are no experts, We're all learning. The second that you claim that
you are an expert in this field, to me is the day that you
stop being a student. You stop learning. You don't respect the experience that
you're going to be given from high strangeness, from magic, from thelema,
from whatever you're learning. Yeah, no, I agree with you. If
I go to Ahiti, I will listen to a hungan or a mambo because
they are experts. But again it's it's cultural. And yeah, our western
wold there can be any experts on these topics because it's there's no true scientific
way of proving it or any of this. So data is that, like
you want to keep an open mind. Again, though there can be some
telltale signs of somebody who's just maybe wasting their time. Oh again, it's
it's down to them. They'll they'll find, they'll find, they'll they'll find
it for themselves. And there's absolutely people out there. One thing that we
do specify when we say that is there's absolutely people out there who know more
than us. Like I don't know everything by a long shot, neither does
Bob, and neither does Marco. But Marco definitely knows a lot more than
I do about Thelma. Therefore I can learn from Marco. But that doesn't
mean that Marco's Marco thinks he's higher than thou, you know what I mean?
Like it's it's a very um, delicate but important balance that I feel
that you carry and that we carry as well as we go on and learn
about all different time excuse me, all different types of high strangeness. There
is something about magic in general, something that always it's, uh, it's
tech problems, it's nausea, it's something. It's it's always something we when
we have someone like Marco or Alan Greenfield on the podcast. Yeah, man,
I'm gonna have to cut that. Uh maybe maybe, Um, Yeah,
I don't know. You told me this before. It's it's it's kind
of weird, to be fair, it's weird. I'm telling you. It's
every single time we've done three interviews with Allen. Yeah, more than that,
because we've done video videos with him, and we've talked with him off
air personally, and oh my gosh, every time we have some kind of
issue, we get sick. We've gotten sick before. Um, to the
point where Bob interview by himself it's must be Gramleans or something like that.
Yeah, I don't know. Well, I do want to kind of build
off what you guys were discussing. I think the placebo effect in the magical
community is massive. Um, because we were recently looking into the steps for
an on crossing ritual, just something you know, very basic. Everyone has
their own methodology for un crossing. And then it goes even deeper to well
Marco's oils that he sells it's the best for un crossing. Without his oils,
you're only half wasting. You're doing you're own crossing, and it's it's
really wild. And then the other thing I want to you kind of touch
on this earlier, but the psychedelic aspect of Thelma, because you kind of
discuss how can you really be an ascended master and still uh embodying the mortal
plane. Well, I don't know how familiar you are with Terrence mckennum,
but I recently listened he I'll have to send you this clip where he discusses
he took a DMT trip for those who are an unfamiliar to stemethyl triple mean
and it's an extremely potent psychedelic and it lasts four to fifteen minutes. It
depends on the set setting in the first a million other factors. But he
you know, this was on a magical conversation he was having and he describes
meeting these uh, these other worldly elves basically, and he says one of
the machine that's that's what he calls them. Yeah, so he's discussed he's
talking to these machine elves who are vibrating, and then we apply the law
of vibration. We start to apply some of the more well known hermetic lasses.
Okay, well they're singing things into existence. Then they're jumping into his
body. He can feel their presence through the vibrations. I think when you
factor in the psychedelics, you can kind of start to see how someone may
be able to reach that level of sended master on the mortal plane. But
it's there's no psychedelic trip that's the exact same for two people. And that's
where it's a there's no psychedelic trip that's the same between the same person from
trip to trip now, and that's that's where I mean, you can get
difficult to when you get into, you know, Crowley's drug usage, you
can kind of start to see, But then you can also approach from the
other side of well, he was a drug addict and that's why he was
thinking the things that he was thinking. Well, you know what, let
let me let me address a couple of things here. First of all,
I would like to say that Cruley was a drug user to cool him an
addict in the sense that yeah, I mean it was addicted to a series
of drugs, mostly because at the time that's what doctors prescribe to people.
It was the doctors that get people addictions going, because you know, if
you if you felt ill, well, here's some cocaine for you. That
was it was, it was, it was, it was definitely, it
was definitely addicted to a series of things. But famously he also wrote Confessions
of a Drug Field, which was his like strange out of by almost pseudo
autobiographical way of describing his attempts to get rid of all these addictions, even
if at the time he didn't need to because it was part of, um,
you know, of the way medicine was administered at the time. Right.
That's just just like a little thing on Kroe that you know, not
to say that I never because people tend to say, especially in telemic circle,
people tend to see me as the kroa bascher. So for once I
defended him. Um. Also, like what you mentioned about, you know,
the h the psychedelics and whatnot. I mean I took the DMT come
several times, and I don't know if you know, like you have to
smoke it and I don't smoke. So it was a very terrible experience.
Yeah, harsh experience. And I had very visual um experiences and I did
meet this. It is very true, like you get there, you it's
almost like your visuals um become very strange out of sudden and almost like you're
somewhere else, but you really like you just go somewhere inside your head and
there, you know, I could reliably find the same creatures all the time,
and like like McKennon was saying, like there was there wasn't really like
any any spoken language, was more like a vibration consciousness exchange and things like
that. Um. This these experiences you know with DMT and you know with
LSD and other psychedelics true in my life. I ended up wondering if these
tools are really needed to go deeper with magical practices. Um. There is
a very interesting academic paper called The Cactus and the Beast. I don't remember
the you know, the the PhD candidate, but I guess he's a doctor
now that wrote it. Trying to remember him Patrick something. Anyway, The
Cactus and the Beast is on Academia dot edu and this guy was also was
I don't know if still is um. An OTEO member made the point that
if you go through all of Churl's diaries, you used used to used to
write about everything right about all is um experience. And you also also used
to use a lot of symbols to like shorthand for various um practices. Right.
For instance, oftentimes if you found like a circle with a cross in
the middle, which is kind of like a representation of the rose cross,
that could have meant sexual union, like sex magic simplifying it, but in
general that gives you the idea. Well, this guy went to pretty much
improved that he was using a lot of payoti towards his entire magical career.
And he's not the only one, right, Like, there's plenty of scholars
and you know, researchers that try to prove that in a lot of early
Masonic ritual there was a lot of use of psychedeics as well, maybe hashish,
which was not the kind of stuff you find this day, but like
early like super potent as I will give you a lot of visual effects.
Now, of course, we live in a society, especially here in the
West where you know, we we waived the war on drugs and we lost
it terribly over the years. In the last decade, things are trying to
change in that direction, but there's still a lot of prohibitionism. And the
problem is that you just cannot give drugs to people because you have to learn
the drug. Again, there can be any instant instant gratification there. Either
you have to learn the drug, you have to get in touch with it,
you have to understand, you have to understand what kind of effects it
will. It will you know, give to your body, and as you
said, like everybody is different, everybody will have different reactions. But my
point is it could well be that you can never have deeper, higher experiences,
you know, magister template ever experiences unless you help your body with chemicals
from outside, which is you know, it's opening the doors of perception,
like all of those Aculay wrote, and again McKenna and everybody who was part
of you know, the lizergic and a generation of the sixties and seventies became
a big proponent of m I don't know, I don't know if we'll ever
get there, because unfortunately we're still in in you know, living again in
a society where drug use is completely seen as unacceptable, because it does it
can be incredibly dangerous if you're not familiar with what you're doing. And at
the same time, we're having people going to to do I don't know,
Ayahuaska retreats without even understanding how incredibly potent and invasive is an Ayahuaska retreat and
coming back with their minds shattered. So um, well, that's why I
think people like Paul Stamitz and his work is very very important to not only
the magical community but everyone in general, because he references quite a few research
like Harvard research papers and experiments with still cyban In particular, it repairs your
brain and it creates new neural pathways, and I think that definitely could be
a key to unlocking that pathway to higher consciousness. And one thing I also
want to add about the doctors back then, you know, prescribing cocaine as
typical over the gounters like prescription um the what is the name of that book
you just got? The Cross, the Sacred Mushroom in the Holy Cross?
Yes, so um, I'm not Are you sure? Are you familiar familiar
with that? Marco. I'm not, but it sounds very interesting. I'll
send you a link to it. It's um. Well. Yeah, one
thing we talked about, me and Bob is that the fact that, uh,
some of these priests that we're coming over to America, we're bringing this
herb with them. And this herb is allegedly, in theory tied to the
burning bush in the Bible, and that burning bush was a what was the
name of That was the name of it, oh ye asked me too fast,
I did. It was a psychedelic inducing bush that was grown in Africa,
and that was there was a fossilized version that was found that matched the
time period of when this scripture would have been written or talked about, and
lightning would light these bushes on fire. The smoke could induce hallucinogenic effects.
Anyway, these herbs were brought over to America, they were passed around in
Catholic rituals. You know, they got the swinging incense as they go through
the aisles, and it could be causing hallucinogenic like effects to the masses,
to the people in the church. So it wasn't just us weirdos who do
magic rituals in the woods. It was also your granny who went to good
old Southern Baptist Church. I'm just saying, yeah, absolutely absolutely, and
to kind of grow on this. So the books called The Cigarete Mushroom in
the Cross by John Allegro. It was an incredibly controversial book. The Catholic
Church bought out the rights um and through a various amount of loopholes and legal
dropping of the ball it was. It was reprinted not too long ago.
It was within an hour of the publishing rights. So they bought it for
like interesting they bought it for like thirty years. It expired and within an
hour of them trying to rebuy it, this guy came and purchased the rights
and reprint it up. Yeah, it's it's it's an incredible book. It's
a very it's very controversial, and it's a lot of speculation. But well,
when he wouldn't sell the rights, they bought his publishing company to buy
the rights to the book. So it's a whole there's something there that I
definitely think people should look into. But but but to kind of build off
the psychedelic the demonization right now here in the States for those who might not
be familiar. There are. There are a few locations in which psychedelics are
decriminalized and legal, so in Arbura, Michigan, Denver, Colorado, Portland,
Oregon, and I believe some parts of Washington. It might be the
entirety of Washington. In state. Here in the States, we love to
do things like make psychedelics a Schedule one controlled substance, meaning it has zero
medical benefits whatsoever. Well, even though ten plus years ago, what we
have John Hawkins University producing studies that not only challenges us but disproves it entirely
that it has zero medical benefits. But that's kind of where we're at.
And I know we're kind of pressed, we're time. Sorry, I want
to throw something else at you, Marco. I'm incredibly passionate here about the
Satanic panic and the fact that people I get told consistently, Bob, this
was in the nineties. It's over. It's it's it's it's not over.
It's ever more prevalent, and if not, it's become, in my opinion,
more weaponized in a smarter way because of the way that technology halved.
Technology is involved, and we see this in paranale investigation all the time.
We actually just talk to Brandon Elvis, who's got an amazing show coming out,
Haunted Discoveries, and we have this discussion where people found that you can
you can do two things. One the idea the ideology that demons sell so
every ghost is a demon and discussion. I want to kind of talk to
you in the in the magic community and one of you face. You know,
we kind of talked about some of some bad reviews from the book and
it wasn't as many as you thought, thankfully. Where do you think we
are with the Satanic panic when we're talking ritualistic magic in twenty twenty three.
It has it affected you personally, So I definitely think that satanic panic is
back and it's it'sier to stay. I agree with you when you say that
it's it's it's worse than the first time around, because, as you correctly
mentioned, this time, the you know, the bagged actors are going to
weaponize it in more efficient ways than they did the first time around. Um,
you know, you know, we could we use the term satanic panic,
but we could use QAnon, we could use pizza Gate, we could
use everything that goes back to the idea of the blood lieboat right, the
idea that there's someone that it's usually the Jews or or could be anybody related
to tom To to them that you know, killed children with terrible, um
bull old rituals. This is I mean, I had to face it already
multiple times. I tend to to delete those comments on my various social media's.
I tend to you always keep all the comments up, but those one
in particularly, I tend to to delete them because I don't want to give
these people any um, any platform at all, you know, whatsoever.
But it's it's definitely there, right, It's absolutely there. Um. It's
it's really worrying in a way because I'm actually speaking with um what somebody was
doing a PhD on the Satanic panic right now and she reported that m her
her academic interview was pretty much like deleted from YouTube because you know, of
the because of the of the teams that they were being discussed. So and
this is something that I noticed is that over the last three years. So
I don't know if that's been you've noticed as well, you mean, maybe
you can tell me, but I noticed that because I look a lot at
analytics, right, It's part of one of my interests. Looking at data,
and I noticed that a lot of YouTube YouTube content, in particular videos
about magic, witchcraft, etc. Especially in magic and which not so much
UFOs not so much again paranormal investigations, but magic and witchcraft or it went
downhill in views incredibly, right to the point that I don't believe it's just
a case of people not being interested in the subject anymore. It's an imagical
press, you know, you know, imagic. Yeah, exactly like in
magic, there's always waves. This this topic came and comes, comes and
goes because as we said before, it's so difficult if you really want to
engage with it. You realize that you don't have just to to and you
know a mantra, look at a scio or do some good O rituals.
You have to really do something and you know, engage with it. So
most people just you know, come and go. And that's fine. But
we went from I went from seeing you know, big names dropping a video
and having sixty thousand views over a year two six hundred. I mean that's
that's incredible, right, And it's not like the quality went down. Um,
we're we're talking about you know, not small creators. I have like
two thousand, five hundred and six hundred people on YouTube, and I never
publish. I just do live streams, right, So I'm not talking about
me. I'm talking about people with three hundred thousand followers, right, And
they had in a lot of attraction and the attraction is completely gone. And
I think that's part of the algorithm of YouTube being twiaked on one sense because
they you know, they cannot sell ads for magic, right because have what
kind of ads do they sell? But part of it possibly because they've been
I don't think that YouTube is like trying to or Google, right, trying
to push Satanic Panic ideology. But maybe they don't want to get um when
attacked by these nuts, right, So they kind of did something with the
algorithms so that it's specifically magic and specifically witchcraft. It's almost gone from from
the platform. Um if you if you follow various creators, you'll see you
still see them. But maybe even if you're a subscriber, you're those view
views views, yeah, yeah, exactly, you have to go and find
them yourself. So in many ways, this is one of the more insidious
ways that the Satanic Panic is acting nowadays. Personally, I said I did
receive a good deal of you around of the meal, uh you know,
insults that threats. But again, I mean again, I I wrote a
book which is bafflement on the cover. I was expecting that you know that
book. By the way, originally the title was supposed to be Telm after
Tears. It used to have a different image on the on the on the
cover. But you know, like the publisher really convinced me to go for
the Lester crony manual and that very in your face, which I think it
did did a good job. It's very recognizable, but it definitely did attract
a lot of crazies. Uh. When it comes to the reviews, um,
to be fair, the only bad reviews that I got, and we're
talking about just to given the yea right now, the book is four stars
four point five stars out of five on you know as an you know,
um, the aggregated score between good Reads and Amazon, right which is which
is decent. I'm very happy with it. The only bad reviews are from
otio people because and only the and the and their their bad reviews that absolutely
do not speak about the book. They're like, they talk shit about me.
They say that I was I was kicked out of the OTEO. It's
not true. I resigned. They say that the book is full of my
political ideas. It's not true. I never speak about politics in the books.
They say that the book you should read other things, not by people
that are against the OTEO. Why, I mean, it's you know what
I mean, right, So it's I don't see my bad book reviews,
which by the way, are six out of one hundred and one hundred and
eleven right now reviews on Amazon. So it's not that it's not that bad.
It's good overall. But you know those reviews are I don't think they're
linked to Satanic panic themselves. It's a linked about the fact that the OTEO
is a cult and whenever you get out of the cult and criticize the cult,
they will come after you. And Greenfield have had the same experience.
Gerald wil Campo had the same experience. Everybody who spoke against the OTEO as
an ex member of OTEO had the same experience. Um, well, we've
had that we've interacted with throughout the years. So I mean, what's another
one, Just just another one, right, Because we can never get enough
of cults of personalities I mean, it's it's sad to say, but apparently
that's really what people want. People want to be part of something that tells
them that they're special and unique, even if they're not, even if they
do nothing to be special and unique, and that there is one one person
at the top, which is either like a sky Daddy or somebody who died.
And I'm being unshrined every time I read that your book, I was
laughing so much. Sky Daddy is the perfect term for it. I mean
it's it's kind of it kind of gives the you know, the kind of
paints the correct figure. I think. Yeah, so, you know,
long, long story short, I do think that the Satanic pining two point
two is back easier to stay. And it's really really dangerous um because you
know, at the end of the day, behind the Satanic panic, you
find q and One, you find Pizza Gate, you find blood libel,
You find them are pedophiles and so they should die. And it's always the
same thing. I mean, like it's always the same story. It goes
back to the to the blood libel against the Jews since the Middle Ages,
right, and it's it's really it's dangerous times. I really believe we're we're
not living in in a very safe, not safe moment of history. Yes,
I hope. I hope I could say something, you know, like
end this on a on a positive note, but no, I think that,
you know, I also like this. I also would like to remember
everybody that the way we got out of Satanic Panic one point two is by
people speaking up, by people being you know, rages enough and bold enough
to stand against the lies and the slander and the libel. So I really
hope that people can remain strong knowing that we are going to rough waters.
And that's not denying debt, No, absolutely, And I want to kind
of build off something real fast. So we have a second channel where recover
missing person's content. We have two hundred and sixty thousand subscribers or something like
that over there, and we like you, like yourself. I live in
the analytics. I love looking at trends. I love figuring out what they
mean, what they could meet in the future. That's just kind of my
my thing. And I had done a video on the Tails from the Dark
channel about the Satanic Panic it got. It literally was called what is the
Santanic Panic? Yeah, it got demonetized instantly wasn't recommended anytime on the missing
person's side if we discussed the faith theory or we discussed magical practice as a
ritual magic. It's not just that we'll see a dip in views. We'll
go from typically getting you know, twenty to thirty thou into three to four
and twenty four hours if we're lucky, and it's it's extremely obvious when you
look at the analytics, like you said, you can easily identify where these
things are happening. Now the how, that's where we have a bit more
of a difficult discussion to have because you don't you don't want to combat a
conspiracy with a conspiracy. And that's where it's incredibly difficult to have the conversation
about the Satanic panic because you have some people say it just doesn't exist,
it doesn't exist, because I don't. I'm not affected by it. What
in my case, you know, I grew up in the nineties and small
town Ohio where my parents were convinced that everyone was part of a secret society
and that everyone was out to murder us or traffic us. I mean,
hell, your parents literally told you there are cultists in the woods. Yeah,
do not go out on this specific road. Well, that's a big
conversation that my film partner and I've had a bunch of times because we grew
up in the same town hearing the same thing. Out on River Road.
There's cultists that are sacrificing kids. And if only you know one or two
people heard that, you're like, oh, that's weird the whole Yeah,
everyone and everyone in my high school class heard the exact same story, no
matter race, creater, nationality, we all heard the same thing. We
had some people who were extremely high up on the the monetary guidelines, people
that were making town. Those people were hearing the same stories that out on
River Road there are people doing rituals and they're sacrificing children. Where that doesn't
just come out of nowhere. And I love history. When we approach a
we have a documentary out where we did a panimal investigation to me the highlights
the historical aspect. I have dove as deep as I possibly can. I've
on earth some very disturbing history in my hometown. Nothing about the cold.
There was one major h There was a murderer at my hometown when I was
a child. The first thing they said. And this was as far over
as um. Some London papers wrote about him saying he was a local occultist
and they had blamed his uh disillusion from his local church on being an occultist.
There was zero proof anywhere that this guy was supposedly part of a cult.
And I've looked and if any if it was out there, you would
have found it. You And I mean I'm talking. I've gone to the
local historical society. I've read every paper from eighty nine to OZ four records,
you name it. You were that that case, you were in it
for months. Yeah, And I could not find any proof, with the
exception of the rest of the country was going through Satanic panic one point zero.
And it was extremely easy to attach this evil thing that happened in a
small town where things never happened to the greater Satanic panic of Oh, this
is a secret society that's infiltrating this small Ohio town. And you also had
quite a bit of Catholic background in Catholic churches in your hometown, and I
think that definitely helped aid that narrative, because growing up Baptist, I didn't
experience it that as much. And It definitely wasn't everything is a demon when
I was grown up, but we were definitely superstitious. So no, like
like I said, like when you when you study the history behind these events,
you realize there's no history. But of course, people people that believe
in any panic or blood libel or knoon or pitzigate, they will tell you,
well, you know know, because you're not high enough in any group,
and you you're the powers that be are so strong that the elite of
Hollywood is so strong that um, you know, they'll they'll they'll hush everything.
The problem is that, unfortunately that also is complete books because Blue and
be Old, we know of people like Epstein that are actual pedophiles, that
incredibly powerful people with a lot of money, but we know about them.
It's them, right, there's nothing else than that. And you know,
to to keep on trying to create these false narratives of some sort of like
magic colds or reach ritualistic murders. It's just because almost like people have some
sort of like obscene fascination almost like faticization of this of these ideas, right,
and you know, it's almost increasing incredible to me that you know,
we're living in in a moment of history where pretty much, you know,
we know whatever happened to happen in Epstein Island, right the guy so you
know, killed himself or you know, got suicided, or we will never
possibly know that Gilaine Maxwell is still in jail. We know that, you
know, for instance, all these people were very good friends with Donald Trump.
But you know who's usually the people that actually go and um, you
know, share satanic panic narratives are Trump supporters. And by the way,
it's the same in here in the UK, in Italy, everywhere. It's
always it's always like that kind of people that cannot see the obvious and they
have to create us try that pans. It's always exactly exactly right. Look
at this while my hands doing this. Yeah, it's really difficult because for
every we've discussed this from the show, for every one hundred Pizza Gates,
you do have a Finder's cult here in the US, and we've seen that
I documents or you or you have a situation where what's happening at bohemian growth,
that's that's up for interpretation. Depending on who you talk to. It
can be as simple as they are a paying homage to a theater, an
old theater act. That's the thing. Though for everyone that's real, there
are there are a thousand that are nonsense. And when we first started tell
Us from the Dark, I fell down a lot of those rabbit holes of
everything's a fucking conspiracy, this is insane. Then you crawl your way back
out and you're able to look and say, this has legs. This was
made up by some dude in his mom's basement. It's it's yeah, And
you have to know how to differentiate between the two. And I do want
you to say the statistic that we would like to refer to you when we
talk about the Satanic panic, about how there's not been a documented ritualistic killing.
Go ahead, all, let you say that's the whole thing there.
So when I was in the police academy, I had a conversation about um,
Satanic cults was the thing that was still being talked about in the police
academy, And I said, hey, how many times have as the FBI
caught these these satanists that are sacrificing kids. And my instructor, who it
was, was an FBI. Um. He worked for the FBI doing like
various teachings and he says, Bob, We've never caught one ever. There's
not a there's not a there's not a single documented case of a ritualistic killing
under the name of Satan. And I'm like, hang the fuck on.
I grew up hearing that this was happening every week, like everywhere. Gonna
look at at a go grocery, at a Dollar General, It's gonna be
happening by the dumbest. Yeah, every Tuesday. We were meeting up and
this is He's like, no, there's never been one. We don't have
one. And the people who say it's a ritualistic killing under Satan's name,
that's they have no backing for that. We're just saying it because it gets
the clicks online and it gets the eyes on. And I'm like that,
it's such an insane statistic. Now, granted I don't know if he's just
talking here in the States or worldwide, but this guy would have been it's
everywhere. Trust me, it's it's the same everywhere. Like I did,
I did study the subject a lot, because you know, like at some
point I realized that given who I am, what I write about, what
I believe in, I could well become you know, a target at some
point and there's never ever been any proof and Satanic ritual murder ever existed,
ever happened. It all goes back to really layout Axial and his hoax um.
You know, I mean that we could we could discuss about Texel for
another hour, but it's all about what this guy that really wanted to play
a big prank against the Catholic Church in the eighteen hundreds in France, and
he succeeded. For for good ten years. He wrote books and pamphlets about
this secret Palladian Order of freemasery. There was, you know, meeting under
the Rock of Gibraltar, worshiping Satan, killing children. Pretty mull like getting
all the ropes back from the blah blah bel against the Jews in the Middle
Ages, and the Vatican believed it and even invited this guy to Rome to
for this big expose of the Palladian Order. And the guy, which actually
was a socialist you would argue, maybe or a protocommunist, to say,
well, actually you are the fools because I ranked you. It's like,
and people still goes again, still perpetrate taxil hoax um. If you if
you never heard about this gone Wikipedia. Look for tax Cil t A x
I L hoax. Very good article, a lot of links. Actually on
Kickstarter right now there is someone is translating his book from French and it has
been one of the biggest Kickstarter of the year. They raised over sixty thousand
dollars to do it because there's a lot of interest because it's really like,
especially when you read it, it's so atrociously you know, unbelievable. Yeah,
and trust me, pretty much every trope you hear from Satanic panic nuts
it comes from that book. They still perpetrate the same hoax, possibly without
knowing, you know, but the same you know, it's the same beats
of taxil. And that was eighteen sixty if I'm not mistaken, So a
good one hundred and forty years later. It's a long time under sixty years
later, a long time all right, Marco, Well, we we're I
don't want to take up too much more of your time, but before you
go, where can people find your book? I know you teach classes.
We kind of schedule on your courses. Where can they find more? Marco?
Oh, well, why would everybody want to find more? All right?
That's access jokes aside. If you go on Marco Visconti dot org that's
kind of my online hub, you will find the two soon to be three
main courses I teach. The first one is Magic Without Tears, which is
pretty much like the book but extended, you know, with recording of life
live sessions and you know more more more or less, I'm expanding on the
book right um in interesting enough. Right now I'm running my last live cohort
and I just finished the first part. The second part will start at the
end of August and round till October. So if you if you want to
get um and you know, see me every week on zoom teaching you magic,
that's your best bet um. Also, the other big course I have
is called Thought Taro Magic, which is on the thought Taro, but it's
not so much like a course where I teach how you you how to read
the cards, even if there is a lesson on that, and I go
quite in deep how the thought Taro reads very differently than your normal taro,
but it's mostly twenty two pathworkings or recorded where you can actually go into you
know, light trans states and get inside the cards and pretty much have almost
like an induced psychedelic experience of the cards. I just wrapped that up.
All the material is available for self based study. Everybody would took it say
that it's the best thing I've done so far. So I'm very I'm very
happy how that turned out. Finally, well, I mean, we're recording
this on Monday and on Thursday. This week I will announce my third courts
which is called to be called the Holier Dean Angel Experience, where I'm gonna
teach you all that I cannot teach you how to invoke the Holier Dean Angel,
but I can give you all the historical background, how the on the
whole Gardian Angel changes from you know, its roots in the maybe the Greek
magical papyri, then into the Abramelian operation and the Book of Abramelion, and
then how it translates into Telemma, and how it's actually quite a different experience
from you know, from the precursors to the telemic understanding of it um.
Then this is going to be like going to be on sale by the end
of the week and will run from October to December twenty twenty three. But
then again, usually all the courses I do, I always do like live
cohorts and then everything is recorded edited and people can sign up at any time
to do self paid studies. On my website. You also find like,
you know, one shot classes. I have one on Magic and Crowe,
I one on Babylon, I wan on Esoteric Freemasery. These are like,
you know, if you want to spend an evening learning atopic and you don't
know anything about it, maybe that's that's a good way of of spussing any
meaning we know it with me. Um, and that's about it. Um.
I'm you know, if you want to follow me on social media,
I am Marco V Schooling Team pretty much everywhere. Um. Yeah, thank
you for being Yeah, thank you for coming. Yeah, Like I know,
it's been a couple of months, a couple of months in the making,
but we haven't glad. Yeah, I am absolutely it was fantastic.
Thank you, Thank you guys. Awesome. Well, thanks Marco. I
appreciate it, all right, Miss Brittany. So that was a that was
a fucking fun interview. Let's be Yeah, what a riveting conversation. I
feel very energized after that. Yeah, it's funny because we discussed like I
kind of felt sick. Before we started, we were having a bunch of
issues technology, like on the tech side, And now I feel really good.
Yeah, it's always happens with ELM and like I said in the interview,
it always happens with magic, with Thelma, with anything to do with
with this side of the weird. So no, absolutely, in the books
great. I recommend anyone who even has a inkling and too. Maybe this
is for me. I just want to learn more. It's a great resource
to start. And it's not that we talked about this on during the interview,
but there's too many books that over explain and they want to kind of
stay on their pedestal of look, how smart I am. This isn't one
of those books. Now, I will say, when you first read through
it is it's complicated. It's a complicated subject. Yeah. But what I
was most shocked about when I read through this book was the fact of how
much I retained months after I put the book down for the first time,
which we talked about that in the first part, that before we ye the
main episode, I retained a lot of knowledge throughout studying this book, really
and to be able to recall that knowledge and have an active conversation with you
about it was very surprising to me because it's complicated. Well, a lot
of these books and even we love Uncle Allen, but some of his books
I have to read two or three times to really grasp, if not more.
Yeah, and it's nothing against his writing style, but it's the subject
is very complicated, and you have to approach it, like you said in
the interview, as a student. The second you trying to approach it.
Of oh why I already understand. I understand the capitalistic tree of Life.
You may understand. You may have studied the sep roths and that's awesome,
but how they apply to Thelma, for example, may be completely different than
what you're used to studying. It's also could be a new perspective too.
You can always gain knowledge from a new perspective. Yeah. So with that
being said, miss pretty unless there's something else that you'd like to add,
go check out Marco. I agree. I think we're not have to add
this episode of our Strange World to our never ending but are always growing Tales
from the Dark m M.