WEBVTT

1
00:00:00.040 --> 00:00:06.160
The o'chilly Effect is sponsored by Wall
Street Window dot Com and listeners like you.

2
00:00:06.799 --> 00:00:17.399
Yeah now check lly first day of
June twenty twenty three, allegedly according

3
00:00:17.399 --> 00:00:21.280
to that thing we call a calendar, and this is indeed the o'chelly Effect,

4
00:00:21.280 --> 00:00:24.239
the show you were looking for.
How do I know this because you're

5
00:00:24.280 --> 00:00:27.839
hearing me say what I'm saying.
Most of you will catch it further on

6
00:00:27.879 --> 00:00:31.679
down the stream by your final cyber
choice, your applicable application, your podcatcherd

7
00:00:31.800 --> 00:00:35.880
your We well know this no matter
who you are, where you are when

8
00:00:35.920 --> 00:00:41.799
you are welcome to it. Anyways, Thursday Thursday, and it's been unusual

9
00:00:41.880 --> 00:00:46.719
lately for me to have both Mike
Swanson and Larry Hancock on the same show.

10
00:00:47.119 --> 00:00:50.920
And even though I went late to
air here on the live stream,

11
00:00:51.079 --> 00:00:56.640
you podcatcher people, you podcast listeners
out there aren't going to care. I've

12
00:00:56.640 --> 00:01:00.079
got both Mike Swanson, the guy
behind Wall Street Window dot Com be in

13
00:01:00.119 --> 00:01:03.719
the no go to Wall Street Window
dot Com. It's not just about Wall

14
00:01:03.760 --> 00:01:08.040
Street but also the author of the
War State and Why the Vietnam War,

15
00:01:10.040 --> 00:01:15.439
which is a book in a series
on that particular conflict. The other two

16
00:01:15.040 --> 00:01:19.879
projected. It's supposed to be three
books. The other two projected have not

17
00:01:19.159 --> 00:01:23.719
been released yet. I think Mike's
working on him. But we might have

18
00:01:23.760 --> 00:01:30.040
to delve into said subject tonight a
touch maybe or maybe not. Gonna be

19
00:01:30.239 --> 00:01:33.879
spoiler by the way, Gonna be
some JFK stuff coming up in both hours.

20
00:01:34.239 --> 00:01:40.359
Why second hour author Larry Hancock is
with us, and although I have

21
00:01:40.439 --> 00:01:44.799
some interesting thoughts on UAP stuff that
he should be talking about very very soon,

22
00:01:45.319 --> 00:01:48.079
tonight, we're gonna focus in the
second hour of the show, and

23
00:01:48.159 --> 00:01:53.480
the second probably the third segment will
be Lee Harvey Oswald and the reframing of

24
00:01:53.640 --> 00:01:57.959
and not trying to frame him as
in for a crime, but the reframing

25
00:01:57.000 --> 00:02:02.239
of the portraits, so to speak, of the individual of historical interest known

26
00:02:02.319 --> 00:02:07.599
as Lee Harvey Oswald. So Larry
handcockleby with a sting in the second hour,

27
00:02:07.199 --> 00:02:12.479
definitely, and in the third segment, I believe. But Mike Swanson

28
00:02:12.599 --> 00:02:15.840
is with us, live as we
go, and again happy to have you

29
00:02:15.879 --> 00:02:20.199
along. And little pause again last
week Mike you were away, but boy

30
00:02:20.199 --> 00:02:23.400
am I happy to have you back. How are you doing tonight? I'm

31
00:02:23.400 --> 00:02:27.080
doing great? Good to talk.
Yeah, And you know, I was

32
00:02:27.120 --> 00:02:30.560
going to talk to you a little
bit about local news stuff and and and

33
00:02:30.599 --> 00:02:34.319
so on and so forth. But
why why stress on that you and I

34
00:02:34.400 --> 00:02:38.280
have lots of personal interests in history
and all that good stuff. Oh by

35
00:02:38.319 --> 00:02:43.199
the way, speaking of history and
our personal interests, just a really quick

36
00:02:43.240 --> 00:02:47.240
thing about the website and the swag
bag packages that will be going out,

37
00:02:47.840 --> 00:02:53.000
um, if you would like after
ten pm tonight, I'm going to you

38
00:02:53.120 --> 00:02:55.479
the listener, not you, Mike, you the listener, although Mike you

39
00:02:55.479 --> 00:03:00.400
you could if you felt like.
If you're hanging around after ten pm tonight

40
00:03:00.879 --> 00:03:05.159
and want to be part of the
o'chelly dot com promo video that I'm gonna

41
00:03:05.159 --> 00:03:07.599
make, which is about two or
three minutes long, if you want to

42
00:03:07.639 --> 00:03:12.439
participate in that, get in contact
with me and let me know you the

43
00:03:12.520 --> 00:03:16.280
listeners. If you hear this live, contact me Charles dot o'ceelly on Skype

44
00:03:16.360 --> 00:03:23.000
or right to blind JFK researcher at
gmail dot com. Do one of those

45
00:03:23.039 --> 00:03:27.680
two things, and you, any
listener who wants to and has use of

46
00:03:27.759 --> 00:03:32.800
Skype, could participate in the making
of a short promo video tonight sometime after

47
00:03:32.879 --> 00:03:38.840
ten pm. Because I want to
promote the swagbag stuff, which is not

48
00:03:38.960 --> 00:03:42.639
on sale in any way, shape
or form. It's stuff being offered to

49
00:03:42.680 --> 00:03:46.280
you as thank you gifts for supporters
you out there. Choose to support us

50
00:03:46.520 --> 00:03:51.479
At fifty dollars or more, you
get to choose a hat with the Ocelli

51
00:03:51.560 --> 00:03:54.800
dot Com show on it that you
would like. Currently that's only four shows.

52
00:03:55.360 --> 00:04:00.400
But each one of these hats are
all in very short run and quite

53
00:04:00.479 --> 00:04:04.560
unique. The most of them that
might be made in exactly the same form

54
00:04:04.560 --> 00:04:08.800
in this run, there might be
three or four of them that are the

55
00:04:08.879 --> 00:04:12.439
same. They're mostly one and two
of a kind. And you can get

56
00:04:12.439 --> 00:04:15.759
in nochelly dot com shirt excuse me
hat. You might get shirts so too

57
00:04:15.959 --> 00:04:19.040
because the random swag bag comes up
later. But back to the hats.

58
00:04:19.319 --> 00:04:26.000
O'chelly dot Com, o'celly Effect hat, Age of Transitions hat, Uncle the

59
00:04:26.079 --> 00:04:29.480
podcast hat, or get Mad with
Chris Graves hat. These things you can

60
00:04:29.560 --> 00:04:33.360
choose from the rest of your swag
bag. I'm going to assemble and you

61
00:04:33.360 --> 00:04:38.319
may or may not get a bag
in with that too. Bunch of stuff,

62
00:04:38.360 --> 00:04:42.040
but we'll talk about it later,
much much more because again I'm making

63
00:04:42.040 --> 00:04:45.040
Mike Swanson wait, and I've already
killed about five minutes of podcast time.

64
00:04:45.120 --> 00:04:48.959
So Mike, I did ask you
how you're doing already, But what is

65
00:04:49.079 --> 00:04:55.000
on your mind this evening, sir, Well, I'm gonna make a connection

66
00:04:55.040 --> 00:05:00.240
with local stuff and history. I'm
starting, you know, to do more

67
00:05:00.240 --> 00:05:10.680
writing, and it is part of
that thinking about how to write, you

68
00:05:10.720 --> 00:05:14.120
know how, because I'm writing a
follow up to the last book I did

69
00:05:14.160 --> 00:05:17.879
about the Vietnam War, but it's
really going to be about the Ken administration

70
00:05:18.040 --> 00:05:25.199
and covert action and all sorts of
different topics in one book, which at

71
00:05:25.199 --> 00:05:29.519
different points you get different perspectives because
you know a lot more today. Even

72
00:05:29.560 --> 00:05:31.759
if you were fully studied up on
it's say ten or fifteen years ago,

73
00:05:32.160 --> 00:05:36.680
there's been more information that has come
to light since then, so you have

74
00:05:36.759 --> 00:05:41.560
to update it and you are doing
that as you as you well do.

75
00:05:41.680 --> 00:05:45.399
And by the way, Mike has
authored more books than I ever mentioned on

76
00:05:45.480 --> 00:05:48.959
here, but uh and and one
of them is very relevant to this conversation

77
00:05:49.040 --> 00:05:56.839
considering that you're you're from Virginia there, and you wrote a book about the

78
00:05:56.879 --> 00:06:00.199
history of Danville. Indeed, Um, you've also taking the time to release

79
00:06:00.720 --> 00:06:04.519
a writing by your dad where you
wrote a foreword about the Roman Empire.

80
00:06:05.079 --> 00:06:10.959
Generally speaking, you're interested in history
altogether, but local history is one of

81
00:06:11.000 --> 00:06:15.279
those things that is extremely useful,
especially when somebody's trying to develop context and

82
00:06:15.600 --> 00:06:20.240
figure out things that we're going on. When somebody looks at the microcosm of

83
00:06:20.240 --> 00:06:27.680
their local situation and historical reality,
it's always relevant and fascinating. So you

84
00:06:27.720 --> 00:06:33.240
have actually done that. You've written
on global geopolitical issues for sure. You've

85
00:06:33.279 --> 00:06:39.560
written about Kennedy before, although you
haven't had a full book dedicated to it.

86
00:06:40.360 --> 00:06:44.439
And this book about the first book
about the Vietnam conflict is very interesting

87
00:06:44.519 --> 00:06:48.399
why and I wonder how that's going
to go in the second volume. I'm

88
00:06:48.399 --> 00:06:51.519
actually anxious to see how that's going
to go. But all these things are

89
00:06:51.560 --> 00:06:56.000
interconnected and makes sense, especially because
you're the kind of writer that you are.

90
00:06:56.439 --> 00:06:58.959
And as I've tried to explain to
people, if you haven't read Mike's

91
00:06:58.959 --> 00:07:03.519
writing the long form stuff, I
advise it because quite often what Mike is

92
00:07:03.639 --> 00:07:12.399
extremely adept at doing is taking very
complex historical realities that requires some nuance,

93
00:07:12.439 --> 00:07:16.000
that require um, you know,
a bit of a detailed study, and

94
00:07:16.000 --> 00:07:19.560
and seem to be overwhelming to some
people when it comes to details and stuff,

95
00:07:19.759 --> 00:07:26.040
and quite frankly, Mike communicates a
lot of complex ideas and situations in

96
00:07:26.120 --> 00:07:30.439
a very attainable and um well just
easily understood way. Yeah, go ahead,

97
00:07:30.600 --> 00:07:34.920
I'm just complimenting your right this way. Like the topic though, that

98
00:07:34.920 --> 00:07:39.480
that you know, that's common on
your show that we're all you know,

99
00:07:39.759 --> 00:07:45.639
share a lot of interested in and
Larry will be talking about it someway or

100
00:07:45.639 --> 00:07:51.439
another afterwards, is really the national
security state and uh, you know the

101
00:07:51.519 --> 00:07:55.600
history of that in the United States. I mean, it's the Vietnam War.

102
00:07:55.720 --> 00:08:01.480
That's touches on the Kenny assassination.
It touches on UFO and as and

103
00:08:01.560 --> 00:08:05.360
as with you. Right, Larry
has covered this stuff contextually all over the

104
00:08:05.439 --> 00:08:07.560
map. I mean when you take
a look at books like Surprise Attack and

105
00:08:07.680 --> 00:08:13.000
uh, what what's the other one
there? H there's two very very good

106
00:08:13.000 --> 00:08:16.759
ones, but Surprise Attack is one. Uh. He talks about the behavior

107
00:08:16.879 --> 00:08:22.800
of the interesting situations involving and so
on and so forth, where Larry a

108
00:08:22.879 --> 00:08:26.000
subgenre in and of itself would be
the behavior of the national security state under

109
00:08:26.000 --> 00:08:31.560
different circumstances, right, I mean, that's just what he does shadow warfare.

110
00:08:31.600 --> 00:08:37.279
Shadow warfare is the other back is
great. I mean it's I mean

111
00:08:37.639 --> 00:08:41.440
his books. He's one of the
best writers on on on this. The

112
00:08:41.440 --> 00:08:46.399
thing is, this topic isn't just
covered in books. You know, you

113
00:08:46.519 --> 00:08:50.120
got movies. Uh, you know
the whole list of these, not just

114
00:08:50.279 --> 00:08:58.440
the JFK movie. But you can
go back to the President's men um two

115
00:08:58.519 --> 00:09:05.559
Days in the condor right zero dark
thirty. Yeah, it was a thirteen

116
00:09:05.639 --> 00:09:11.159
days. You could talk about executive
action, you could talk about uh.

117
00:09:11.200 --> 00:09:13.840
You know. One of my favorite
ones was a movie called Deterrence, believe

118
00:09:13.879 --> 00:09:18.000
it or not, which was,
you know, a dramatization, but it

119
00:09:18.080 --> 00:09:20.960
was Kevin Pollock was the president.
Really weird sort of circumstance. He ends

120
00:09:22.000 --> 00:09:24.960
up in a diner. You ever
see this one and he chooses to oh,

121
00:09:24.960 --> 00:09:28.039
well, yeah, take a look
at it. It's a really an

122
00:09:28.080 --> 00:09:33.440
underrated kind of weird thing. Kevin
Pollock is the president and an accidental nuclear

123
00:09:33.480 --> 00:09:39.840
strike occurs in Russia common theme in
some other movies, right where you know,

124
00:09:39.919 --> 00:09:43.559
they then make a trade off and
deterrence, what did we do to

125
00:09:43.720 --> 00:09:46.360
deter the greater nuclear conflict? Uh? And you and I have discussed the

126
00:09:46.440 --> 00:09:52.080
day after, you know, whether
it's a dramatization, a historical dramatization,

127
00:09:52.840 --> 00:09:56.720
or just a sort of you know, taking a dip into the zeitgeist of

128
00:09:56.720 --> 00:10:03.159
a particular time period and drama tizing
that, or it's a documentary. Many

129
00:10:03.200 --> 00:10:07.039
different film entries have been made,
I mean, even going all the way

130
00:10:07.080 --> 00:10:09.679
to you know, your your average
YouTuber or whatever who got serious about history,

131
00:10:11.159 --> 00:10:15.720
all the way to Hollywood productions,
and many many different stops in between.

132
00:10:16.919 --> 00:10:20.519
So I mean there's a great deal
of media out there available for people

133
00:10:20.559 --> 00:10:24.000
to learn, not just books,
but audio presentations, video presentations. I

134
00:10:24.039 --> 00:10:28.360
mean, help my podcast, if
you look at it from one point of

135
00:10:28.399 --> 00:10:33.639
view, A lot of social,
historical, and even current events as they're

136
00:10:33.720 --> 00:10:39.799
unfolding have been memorialized in my podcast. Over the years. One could say

137
00:10:39.840 --> 00:10:45.279
that you could take a dance through
at least twentieth century history a lot through

138
00:10:45.320 --> 00:10:50.679
my show, although I've gone outside
of the twentieth century and the twenty first

139
00:10:50.720 --> 00:10:54.159
century too. One could say that
there's a collection of media there where people

140
00:10:54.200 --> 00:11:00.240
could learn something. So it's it's
all great and it's all good. You

141
00:11:00.279 --> 00:11:07.200
actually write historical non fiction and you
participate, you know, clearly through Wall

142
00:11:07.200 --> 00:11:11.360
street window and stuff in a way
of memorializing various events that are unfolding currently,

143
00:11:13.279 --> 00:11:16.799
always with an eye on history though, because obviously it's like what can

144
00:11:16.840 --> 00:11:20.559
we learn from it? What can
we determine will be the future of things

145
00:11:20.559 --> 00:11:24.120
based on the history. So all
of this stuff is great context and uh

146
00:11:24.159 --> 00:11:28.279
and necessary in my mind for somebody
to be well educated and aware of what's

147
00:11:28.279 --> 00:11:33.639
going on in the world. And
larrys is again one of my favorite authors

148
00:11:33.720 --> 00:11:35.519
as well, So you know,
a little bit of bias there on my

149
00:11:35.600 --> 00:11:39.519
part, but so are you,
Mike. I appreciate your style and the

150
00:11:39.559 --> 00:11:45.320
information that you do work very hard
at presenting to people so that they can

151
00:11:45.360 --> 00:11:48.399
be educated about previously unknown stuff.
A lot of times, I mean,

152
00:11:48.639 --> 00:11:54.159
there's documents in the Why the Vietnam
War book and references to things that I

153
00:11:54.200 --> 00:11:58.759
don't think are really out there generally
to the public that are sort of rare

154
00:12:00.399 --> 00:12:03.360
in their presentation, or am I
wrong about that? Now, there's there's

155
00:12:03.600 --> 00:12:09.039
new information in that book, for
sure. I'm not saying every page of

156
00:12:09.039 --> 00:12:13.799
the book is new, but but
people who read it they'll find definitely in

157
00:12:13.840 --> 00:12:18.639
the last couple of chapters there's a
lot of new information Um, but I've

158
00:12:18.639 --> 00:12:24.480
been reading or I've read a book
several years ago. It's called The Secret

159
00:12:24.519 --> 00:12:33.159
War Trees and Espionage and Modern Fiction, and it's an academic book that's studying

160
00:12:33.320 --> 00:12:39.639
this topic in literature and in movies. Going back, right, And let's

161
00:12:39.679 --> 00:12:43.240
not confuse it with the Secret Team, by the way, which somebody might

162
00:12:43.279 --> 00:12:45.840
not. Yeah, it's you know, the Secret Team, the Proudie Book

163
00:12:45.840 --> 00:12:50.200
and all that is the Secret War. This is about the John You're itself

164
00:12:50.399 --> 00:12:56.879
going back to Rudyard Kipling, T. T. Lawrence up to Steven Spielberg

165
00:12:58.039 --> 00:13:01.279
and so forth. Okay, So
as opposed to history, as opposed to

166
00:13:01.320 --> 00:13:05.720
a book about history, this is
a history book of the history. So

167
00:13:05.039 --> 00:13:09.360
this is what we call historiography,
I believe, Yeah, yeah yeah,

168
00:13:09.720 --> 00:13:18.240
or literature its analyzing the literature of
it. But anyway, you know,

169
00:13:18.799 --> 00:13:24.519
it's the different forms of how this
topic is tackled. And like, for

170
00:13:24.559 --> 00:13:31.000
example, the Kenny assassination, I
would say the two best books written about

171
00:13:31.000 --> 00:13:37.759
it are the James Douglas book and
then, um, the Don DeLillo book

172
00:13:39.320 --> 00:13:43.399
Libra, which is a novel.
You know, I would actually tell people

173
00:13:43.399 --> 00:13:50.240
that novel might be closer to what
happened on the ground and and not that

174
00:13:50.279 --> 00:13:54.240
it's a factual book it hardly at
all, but as a metaphor or something

175
00:13:54.720 --> 00:14:01.879
maybe closer to what actually happened than
any work of non fiction and about the

176
00:14:01.919 --> 00:14:07.960
assassination has been written. Um in
what the book. What that book does

177
00:14:09.080 --> 00:14:13.639
though, to not this novel is
it doesn't purport and I only read it

178
00:14:13.720 --> 00:14:18.200
once, you know, years ago, but it doesn't purport to like solve

179
00:14:18.240 --> 00:14:22.720
it. It tries to kind of
put you in the shoes of some characters

180
00:14:22.759 --> 00:14:31.360
that were involved in manipulating Oswald,
and then the assassination goes off about them,

181
00:14:31.480 --> 00:14:33.360
you know, having been on it, been in been in on it.

182
00:14:35.440 --> 00:14:39.639
That's one of the plots of the
novel. Um it wouldn't be shocked

183
00:14:39.679 --> 00:14:45.919
if that happened. That there are
people that knew of Oswald or knew of

184
00:14:46.360 --> 00:14:52.320
some of the aspects or surrounding the
assassination, who were shocked when the event

185
00:14:52.360 --> 00:15:01.279
itself actually took place. But I
picked this book up again, u In

186
00:15:01.399 --> 00:15:09.960
read one chapter in it where she
talks about some author I've never read that

187
00:15:09.279 --> 00:15:16.960
you know, wrote these novels and
asserted in it in it in his novels

188
00:15:16.000 --> 00:15:24.000
that they that history itself you know, the very when I was at the

189
00:15:24.000 --> 00:15:28.600
community college that I had a history
course, and the professor said, well,

190
00:15:28.679 --> 00:15:33.320
you take the word history and it
says his story. It's a story.

191
00:15:33.159 --> 00:15:39.399
Um. And you know that's how
we understand history is through narratives and

192
00:15:39.440 --> 00:15:46.200
so forth and um. And then
when I went to college, uh,

193
00:15:46.240 --> 00:15:52.559
in a graduate program in history,
the professors were asserting at that time that

194
00:15:52.759 --> 00:15:58.639
history it's you know that these stories
aren't all necessarily true. You can't really

195
00:15:58.639 --> 00:16:04.320
know percent uh what happened. And
that's that's kind of self evident. But

196
00:16:06.480 --> 00:16:14.759
this uh idea that I countered rereading
this book The Secret War, UH that's

197
00:16:14.799 --> 00:16:22.440
mentioned here is that this person said
that history is a story that we're told,

198
00:16:22.399 --> 00:16:30.679
but what really drives history our secret
betrayals. That the person you know,

199
00:16:30.720 --> 00:16:36.080
reading the history book or let's say
today watching a movie, really rarely

200
00:16:36.120 --> 00:16:41.159
know anything about it all. And
if we do know there's a betrayal,

201
00:16:41.200 --> 00:16:45.039
it's like the Kenny's assination. We
know something happened, but you know,

202
00:16:45.120 --> 00:16:51.559
we don't really know the full details
of it. But the author was making

203
00:16:51.600 --> 00:16:57.240
out like these are personal betrayals that
take place, um, that that are

204
00:16:57.360 --> 00:17:06.839
driving historical events. And the thing
about is locally, I'm not gonna bore

205
00:17:06.920 --> 00:17:11.079
everyone with the details or it's not
really that important. But a couple of

206
00:17:11.079 --> 00:17:18.319
weeks ago, I was involved and
I went to an event. It was

207
00:17:18.359 --> 00:17:26.079
a nomination locally for candidates to the
who would be endorsed by the local Republican

208
00:17:26.160 --> 00:17:33.559
party. And you know, I
know a lot what happened in the event.

209
00:17:33.680 --> 00:17:37.559
You know, I was sort of
working with some of these candidates,

210
00:17:37.480 --> 00:17:42.759
and there was a I'll just say
there was like a betrayal that happened and

211
00:17:42.920 --> 00:17:51.720
maschinations that happened that helped to generate
the winners of this event. And then

212
00:17:51.759 --> 00:17:59.119
the newspaper reported on it a couple
days later, and no one who read

213
00:17:59.160 --> 00:18:03.759
the article would have any clue of
what really took place at all. Right,

214
00:18:04.200 --> 00:18:11.480
and you know, even the US
that when in some of the candidates

215
00:18:11.839 --> 00:18:15.119
had to take a couple of days
to figure it all out, and the

216
00:18:15.759 --> 00:18:19.519
candidates had to talk to each other
to understand what happened. The point of

217
00:18:19.559 --> 00:18:23.119
the point of that is this,
you know, there's a lot of things

218
00:18:23.200 --> 00:18:27.359
that happened. You know, I
guess it's a funny feeling, you know,

219
00:18:27.400 --> 00:18:33.319
to know the details of something and
then pick up a newspaper and read

220
00:18:33.359 --> 00:18:40.200
a story that is basically fiction.
Right, So it's like, how much

221
00:18:40.240 --> 00:18:45.079
of everything is is that? You
know, everything we read is how much

222
00:18:45.119 --> 00:18:48.160
of it is the same? It's
it's it's really more going on than then

223
00:18:48.200 --> 00:18:52.279
we got any clue of And and
then we look at history something that happened

224
00:18:52.319 --> 00:18:59.839
so long ago. Um. Yeah, throw another example out. A couple

225
00:19:00.039 --> 00:19:06.680
months ago, I read a book
about I'm not sure how I hold it

226
00:19:06.720 --> 00:19:11.519
was a couple of years old,
but it's supposed to be the newest best

227
00:19:11.559 --> 00:19:18.960
book about World War two and Hitler. And I'd read probably five or six,

228
00:19:18.720 --> 00:19:22.440
you know, world War two Hitler
books. I know me and you've

229
00:19:22.519 --> 00:19:26.640
talked about the Rise and Fallow the
Third Reich, which was a big hit

230
00:19:27.160 --> 00:19:34.079
in the nineteen fifties. And but
so anyway, this new book I read

231
00:19:36.319 --> 00:19:41.160
had, you know, a lot
of interesting information in it that made me

232
00:19:41.440 --> 00:19:47.359
think of some of the things we've
been told about Hitler differently. For example,

233
00:19:48.599 --> 00:19:53.920
you know, the stereotype of Hitler
is that he was nuts and tried

234
00:19:53.960 --> 00:20:00.079
to take over the world, and
he was crazy to even think he could

235
00:20:00.079 --> 00:20:06.119
fight, you know, the United
States and Britain and the Soviet Union,

236
00:20:06.119 --> 00:20:11.640
and the whole world all once.
Well, when I read this, I

237
00:20:11.759 --> 00:20:21.160
understand that actually what he was doing
came close to working, and he because

238
00:20:22.359 --> 00:20:26.279
he wasn't trying to take on the
whole world at once. What he was

239
00:20:26.319 --> 00:20:37.200
hoping to do was invade the Soviet
Union and when before the United States could

240
00:20:37.200 --> 00:20:41.000
be ready and kind of have a
fatal complete like I've won, and now

241
00:20:41.000 --> 00:20:45.279
what you're gonna do, you know, and then negotiate with the England,

242
00:20:45.480 --> 00:20:49.759
uh, some sort of settlement.
That's really what his goal was. And

243
00:20:51.359 --> 00:20:57.799
I already knew that when he invaded
the Soviet Union the first couple of months

244
00:20:59.720 --> 00:21:06.640
of that war, the United States
intelligence people actually thought he was gonna in

245
00:21:07.319 --> 00:21:12.000
because he was rapidly advancing on the
battlefield. And it wasn't like six months

246
00:21:12.079 --> 00:21:17.799
or so later that he was slowed
down when the wintertime came, and then

247
00:21:18.079 --> 00:21:25.880
it became clear Corn this book is
pretty convincing that once his assault was slowed

248
00:21:25.920 --> 00:21:30.880
down and stopped at Moscow, that
the Germans pretty much knew they were gonna

249
00:21:30.880 --> 00:21:34.640
lose, and he was just you
know, even he knew it um And

250
00:21:34.720 --> 00:21:38.400
it is from that point on that
he started to physically de teriate. But

251
00:21:38.480 --> 00:21:42.680
he you know, had to keep
keep on doing what he was doing.

252
00:21:45.079 --> 00:21:51.599
Then everyone kept tobeying him basically around
him. But um, but anyway,

253
00:21:51.599 --> 00:21:56.599
that's the point is that's a new
interpretation to me of part of World War

254
00:21:56.640 --> 00:22:02.680
Two that I never had heard it
before, and it's pretty convincing, and

255
00:22:03.319 --> 00:22:07.200
it's a lot different than the stereotype
of well, this guy's just crazy.

256
00:22:07.480 --> 00:22:11.720
You know, if I look at
the pattern of his career and what he

257
00:22:11.799 --> 00:22:18.400
was actually from the way he started
to that moment, he was basically being

258
00:22:18.480 --> 00:22:25.160
super aggressive and whatever he was doing
and doubling down like a like someone betting

259
00:22:25.160 --> 00:22:30.640
at blackjack or something until he went
bust. Basically, Yeah, but maybe

260
00:22:30.640 --> 00:22:34.960
that's crazy, But maybe it's crazy
to want to be a world leader anyway.

261
00:22:36.160 --> 00:22:38.839
But well, a lot of leaders
that have been of consequence, who

262
00:22:38.880 --> 00:22:42.599
have conquered a great deal of land
or have achieved, you know, unifying

263
00:22:42.680 --> 00:22:48.400
countries whatever quite often. I mean, there are large gambles here. If

264
00:22:48.480 --> 00:22:52.960
you were betting with the odds all
the time and your movements, would would

265
00:22:52.039 --> 00:22:56.319
Italy have been unified? Would you
know, would this or that or the

266
00:22:56.359 --> 00:23:00.400
third thing have been turned into a
nation state when it was something else?

267
00:23:00.480 --> 00:23:06.039
You know, what I'm saying,
so there's always, um, you know,

268
00:23:06.119 --> 00:23:10.160
there there's always a gamble, so
to speak, when it comes to

269
00:23:10.200 --> 00:23:12.640
these kinds of things. And one
could say, look, what is it.

270
00:23:12.680 --> 00:23:17.599
What is the old saying? Right? Uh, fortune favors the bold,

271
00:23:17.640 --> 00:23:19.839
etc. Uh. You know again, I'm not making any moral judgments

272
00:23:19.880 --> 00:23:22.920
here. What I'm saying is that
if you're gonna do something of massive significance

273
00:23:22.960 --> 00:23:30.680
like that, uh, it does
require uh some risk taking. Yeah,

274
00:23:30.680 --> 00:23:34.240
I said, throwout. You know
this is um. As far as World

275
00:23:34.279 --> 00:23:41.480
War two history, one thing that
helped me ununderstand or has influenced my thicken

276
00:23:41.559 --> 00:23:45.640
in regards to the national security state
in the United States is I read a

277
00:23:45.680 --> 00:23:48.359
couple of books, you know,
this is probably ten years ago now,

278
00:23:49.279 --> 00:23:56.680
um, about the Hall cost and
how it was organized and how it happened

279
00:23:56.759 --> 00:24:03.160
and so forth. And there's two
basic historical arguments for why it happened.

280
00:24:03.799 --> 00:24:12.480
Um. The one is that the
Germans were simply and I don't i'd buy

281
00:24:12.519 --> 00:24:17.200
the second one, So I'm telling
you the one I don't really believe.

282
00:24:18.720 --> 00:24:26.200
But the first one is basically that
the German people were basically more anti Semitic

283
00:24:26.559 --> 00:24:33.400
and basically than anyone else in the
world more evil, you can almost say.

284
00:24:33.599 --> 00:24:41.720
And their ideology and hatred it was
what drove them to do it,

285
00:24:41.839 --> 00:24:45.160
you know, um, and it
you know, it'd be easy to find

286
00:24:45.200 --> 00:24:52.599
evidence of someone's being hateful. Uh. In fact, a couple of months

287
00:24:52.599 --> 00:25:02.079
ago, I've watched um, I
think it's called I've Been Uh. I

288
00:25:02.200 --> 00:25:12.400
watched this movie that's um, the
Nazi propaganda movie about people. And this

289
00:25:12.440 --> 00:25:18.359
movie is censored. You really,
in order to watch it, you have

290
00:25:18.440 --> 00:25:22.440
to go it's illegal to watch it
in Germany. In order to watch it,

291
00:25:22.720 --> 00:25:32.920
you have to go to a video
website and type in your information.

292
00:25:33.039 --> 00:25:34.799
You know, you gotta give him
your name and stuff. I mean it's

293
00:25:36.079 --> 00:25:40.559
I mean, I don't know any
movie like that. Uh. But well

294
00:25:40.640 --> 00:25:44.720
Germany, Yeah, Germany has some
very strict laws about the dissemination of information.

295
00:25:44.759 --> 00:25:47.240
I mean, Americans have to do
that, we have to do it.

296
00:25:47.319 --> 00:25:48.680
Well. No, but that's the
thing too, it's it's a it's

297
00:25:48.720 --> 00:25:53.279
a but if you just type top
German, you know, go to Gooden,

298
00:25:53.359 --> 00:25:56.839
Wikiput or something and get a list
of German propaganda films. This is

299
00:25:59.160 --> 00:26:03.480
my point, is that the intellectual
that the intellectual properties that are registered in

300
00:26:03.559 --> 00:26:07.519
Germany, though what I'm trying to
say here is that because they're an intellectual

301
00:26:07.519 --> 00:26:11.720
property registered in Germany, they have
done their level best to suppress access to

302
00:26:11.799 --> 00:26:18.680
anything that is It makes the German
nation appear to be on board, because

303
00:26:18.720 --> 00:26:25.359
at one time they were National policy
was like that. So anything that is

304
00:26:25.400 --> 00:26:27.559
in support of maybe you know,
the Holocaust wasn't such a bad thing kind

305
00:26:27.599 --> 00:26:33.960
of deal. They don't want that
disseminated if they can help it, because

306
00:26:33.039 --> 00:26:37.960
they would really like to st The
thing about the movie. The thing about

307
00:26:37.960 --> 00:26:41.400
the movie, I mean, it
sounds terrible to say this when I say

308
00:26:41.440 --> 00:26:48.799
this, but this movie probably I
would say this that that historical argument that

309
00:26:48.839 --> 00:26:52.880
I said, i'd dismiss in favor
of the second one, which I've given

310
00:26:52.920 --> 00:26:57.559
us second. But this movie is
probably the best evidence for that historical argument

311
00:26:57.599 --> 00:27:03.400
because if you watch the movie M, which I watched the movie M,

312
00:27:03.799 --> 00:27:11.319
it is convincing propaganda that I'm not
saying it's true, but it's it's an

313
00:27:11.319 --> 00:27:18.720
effective piece of propaganda because the way
it ends. The last couple of scenes

314
00:27:18.799 --> 00:27:25.480
they show and I don't even know
this is true, you know, but

315
00:27:26.079 --> 00:27:33.799
they show a bunch of Jewish people
killing animals. Oh yeah, Well,

316
00:27:33.039 --> 00:27:37.559
they there's a whole history to this
where they got, you know, the

317
00:27:37.920 --> 00:27:41.480
best German filmmakers of the day,
and even when they conquered territories, they

318
00:27:41.599 --> 00:27:48.839
took other filmmakers from conquered territories and
literally employed them to make these films.

319
00:27:48.039 --> 00:27:52.400
Um. The most famous example everybody
knows about it and they can't suppress is

320
00:27:52.440 --> 00:27:56.880
the whole presentation of the Olympic Games, right, which is what was that

321
00:27:57.000 --> 00:28:03.799
Leni Riefenstall I think was her name
was apparently this this woman director in Germany

322
00:28:03.799 --> 00:28:07.160
who was, you know, excellent
at creating imagery. And yeah, Steve

323
00:28:07.279 --> 00:28:15.319
Stephen, uh, Steven Spielberg produced
one film that it's it was a Nazi

324
00:28:15.359 --> 00:28:21.240
propaganda film of the ghettos, trying
to make the people look like they're so

325
00:28:21.960 --> 00:28:26.559
down tried and that they know that
they're sub human and basically deserve to die.

326
00:28:26.640 --> 00:28:30.200
That's what they're trying to argue in
this propaganda movie. It's not really

327
00:28:30.920 --> 00:28:33.480
doesn't make me feel like that when
I watch it. Wait, stea,

328
00:28:34.240 --> 00:28:38.240
Steven Spielberg made a film that is
a Nazi propaganda film, you say,

329
00:28:38.480 --> 00:28:41.680
now, yeah, yeah, yeah, he took an old Nazi propaganda film

330
00:28:41.720 --> 00:28:45.119
and released it. Oh he released
it. He didn't make it. I'm

331
00:28:45.160 --> 00:28:52.240
going an old Nazi propaganda film that
they did. It's it's Nazis film and

332
00:28:52.279 --> 00:28:59.519
the ghetto and showing how bad off
everyone is and release that and then he's

333
00:28:59.559 --> 00:29:04.039
got commentary afterwards and you can watch
that. But uh, why I am

334
00:29:04.039 --> 00:29:10.079
I bringing that up? Um,
It's just a piece of German propaganda.

335
00:29:10.559 --> 00:29:15.920
But the film that I've watched,
I think it's called The Eternal Jew or

336
00:29:15.960 --> 00:29:23.359
something something like this, right,
yeah, but it's the way the end

337
00:29:23.480 --> 00:29:27.440
scene, one of the ends,
one of the second end scene of it

338
00:29:27.559 --> 00:29:33.720
is a bunch of Jewish people killing
I think there are cows killing these animals.

339
00:29:34.240 --> 00:29:40.880
But they're they're torturing them, you
know, they're stabbing them and letting

340
00:29:40.920 --> 00:29:44.279
them bleed to death, and they're
the animals are suffering. They're making you

341
00:29:44.359 --> 00:29:48.559
watch this, yeah, over the
several minutes, right, I get what

342
00:29:48.559 --> 00:29:52.400
they're doing. What they're right,
what they've what they've done is they've taken

343
00:29:52.599 --> 00:29:57.920
the the Kosher slaughter process and they're
showing it to people. Because Kosher slaughtering

344
00:29:59.000 --> 00:30:02.000
is you gotta like literally split the
animals throat and you hang them upside down

345
00:30:02.039 --> 00:30:07.079
and this, uh, you can't
kill them in the regular mechani slaughterhouse way,

346
00:30:07.400 --> 00:30:10.000
uh, in order for them to
get the blessing to be a kosher

347
00:30:10.319 --> 00:30:12.240
piece of beef. Right. So
what they did is they took a film

348
00:30:12.319 --> 00:30:15.559
like that and repurposed it. Uh. And you know, they shoot it

349
00:30:15.599 --> 00:30:19.839
and showed the ugly, the ugliest
possible side of that. I assure you,

350
00:30:19.839 --> 00:30:22.160
if you go to look at a
slaughter house anywhere, you're not gonna

351
00:30:22.200 --> 00:30:26.319
feel too good about the treatment of
animals. Uh. You know, and

352
00:30:26.640 --> 00:30:29.680
you might not want to eat steak
for a couple of weeks, uh,

353
00:30:29.720 --> 00:30:33.480
depending on who you are. But
what they did is they took a piece

354
00:30:33.480 --> 00:30:37.319
of film like that and they made
it into a propaganda thing. So Spielberg

355
00:30:37.759 --> 00:30:41.400
re released this in order to show
people. No, no, this wasn't

356
00:30:41.400 --> 00:30:45.319
in Spielberg movie. Okay, this
is the one I watched. You know.

357
00:30:45.920 --> 00:30:49.640
I'm sorry I got getting you confused
talking about two different things. But

358
00:30:49.720 --> 00:30:55.240
this is the this is the thing
I'm telling you was effective propaganda, right.

359
00:30:55.880 --> 00:30:59.920
Uh. I don't remember what the
name of the Spielberg thing is,

360
00:31:00.960 --> 00:31:04.880
but this is the this scene was
in this movie that you really can't find

361
00:31:04.920 --> 00:31:08.240
on the internet. Uh. It's
like in one spot. You got to

362
00:31:08.240 --> 00:31:11.759
give them your information to watch it. You know, they want to know

363
00:31:11.839 --> 00:31:17.480
who watches it. Um it.
It's very very difficult to apparently to find

364
00:31:18.079 --> 00:31:21.519
a film that is allegedly Beverly Oliver
and a Stag film too. You can

365
00:31:21.559 --> 00:31:26.400
only go to one website. But
but anyway, Yeah, I'm just so.

366
00:31:26.519 --> 00:31:30.920
There's this scene where they're making these
animals suffer, and what that does

367
00:31:32.039 --> 00:31:36.680
is it makes you, you know, you don't want to see people harming

368
00:31:36.720 --> 00:31:41.599
animals in that way. In the
narrator then is telling you how terrible they

369
00:31:41.599 --> 00:31:48.640
are to the torture animals and making
animals suffer. And the implication that they

370
00:31:48.720 --> 00:31:53.599
then make is that, well,
you know, we're not gonna We're not

371
00:31:53.720 --> 00:32:00.279
like that. You know, we're
gonna stop the suffering or these animals they're

372
00:32:00.279 --> 00:32:04.200
doing. And we're not going to
make the Jewish people suffer. We'll kill

373
00:32:04.279 --> 00:32:08.519
them in an easy, humane manner. That's the implication that you get,

374
00:32:08.680 --> 00:32:13.599
well, and you're saying and this
is very typical, Yes, very typical.

375
00:32:13.640 --> 00:32:15.880
This is very typical. This is
what we you and I have talked

376
00:32:15.880 --> 00:32:21.839
about several times regarding the dehumanization of
the enemy one way or another. Where

377
00:32:21.880 --> 00:32:25.240
you make them appear to whether it's
true or not. You make them appear

378
00:32:25.279 --> 00:32:30.400
in the worst possible light. You
dehumanize them, You take away, uh

379
00:32:30.599 --> 00:32:34.319
you know, you make them appear
to be doing the ugliest and most terrible

380
00:32:34.319 --> 00:32:38.319
things possible in order so that you
can justify your treatment of them, right,

381
00:32:38.640 --> 00:32:44.279
the dehumanization, that's what they do. And then you know, the

382
00:32:44.319 --> 00:32:46.720
whole thing you've been watched. I
think it's an hour long. The whole

383
00:32:46.759 --> 00:32:51.559
thing is how terrible these people are, and this and that, and you

384
00:32:51.599 --> 00:32:54.400
don't you know, it's so overblown, right, but that's what the narrator

385
00:32:54.480 --> 00:32:59.880
tells you. Yeah, but then
they show that scene is the most convincing

386
00:33:00.079 --> 00:33:02.680
scene. I mean, these people, the way they treat poor animals.

387
00:33:02.720 --> 00:33:06.759
Look look at what they do.
Look at how terrible they are, heartless

388
00:33:06.799 --> 00:33:10.680
they are. And meanwhile, yeah, yeah, and then the movie ends

389
00:33:10.759 --> 00:33:19.680
with one final scene after that,
which is Adolf Hitler in the Reichstag declaring

390
00:33:19.839 --> 00:33:24.319
that if you know, if there's
a world war, he's going to do

391
00:33:24.440 --> 00:33:29.160
the ultimate solution. You know,
how, don't um against Jewish people.

392
00:33:29.240 --> 00:33:31.720
He's gonna fix this. What they
do is they show you the darker frames

393
00:33:31.759 --> 00:33:36.880
of this other film where these people
appear to be darker and a bit more

394
00:33:37.039 --> 00:33:39.319
you know, nefarious, just in
the even in lighting. They'll change the

395
00:33:39.440 --> 00:33:45.279
lighting and the composition. And then
what you do is you present the hero

396
00:33:45.519 --> 00:33:50.000
Hitler. Yeah, in in Germany, and anyone who watched this movie,

397
00:33:51.240 --> 00:33:53.119
you know, sees the n scene
and Hitler is saying he's gonna kill them

398
00:33:53.160 --> 00:33:57.000
all. Well, not only is
he gonna kill him all, but the

399
00:33:57.079 --> 00:34:04.519
restag everyone in Germany knew these people, you know, right. So what

400
00:34:04.640 --> 00:34:07.920
he does is he comes on and
he looks clean and pressed, and he's

401
00:34:07.960 --> 00:34:12.000
well dressed, and he looks way
more civilized, and he says, look,

402
00:34:12.039 --> 00:34:15.599
we're gonna we're gonna solve this problem. And again that was part of

403
00:34:15.639 --> 00:34:20.079
it, along with the filming of
the you know, the Olympics where they

404
00:34:20.119 --> 00:34:22.760
were supposed to be showing the superiority
of the German athlete and blah blah blah.

405
00:34:23.119 --> 00:34:29.000
You know, it's all about celebrate
us, and also we are justified

406
00:34:29.239 --> 00:34:31.239
in whatever terrible acts we do because
look at how terrible these people are.

407
00:34:31.639 --> 00:34:37.599
And again this is very common.
This is not something that is unused by

408
00:34:37.159 --> 00:34:39.800
you know, the the good,
the bad, or the ugly. When

409
00:34:39.840 --> 00:34:43.840
it comes to conflicts of all types. But yeah, yeah, of course.

410
00:34:43.880 --> 00:34:51.239
Good now, Now, so what
I've just presented is evidence that the

411
00:34:51.440 --> 00:34:58.920
Germans we're diabolically racist and driven into
that through the propaganda. I mean you

412
00:34:59.000 --> 00:35:06.199
can watch it and see. You
know, now that's the argument that's been

413
00:35:06.239 --> 00:35:09.519
made for why the whole cost has
happened, since the whole cost has been

414
00:35:09.599 --> 00:35:19.320
revealed. Um. In fact,
there's a whole argument that either the American

415
00:35:19.400 --> 00:35:23.400
propaganda and you can watch Why We
Fight, um right, you know what

416
00:35:23.679 --> 00:35:29.559
I've watched the first two of that. It depicts the Germans, the Japanese

417
00:35:29.880 --> 00:35:32.960
and the Italians is just diabolically evil. Oh yeah, and there and they're

418
00:35:34.039 --> 00:35:37.920
savage. There, there's savages,
there's sub human h you know, and

419
00:35:38.039 --> 00:35:43.840
so on and so forth. I
mean, everything from cartoons onto regular films

420
00:35:44.000 --> 00:35:49.280
were meant to depict the enemy in
a less than human way. You know,

421
00:35:49.400 --> 00:35:53.239
they're they're either idiots, or they're
savage, or they're like Chromagnan men.

422
00:35:53.400 --> 00:35:57.599
You know what were the Germans?
They were huns? Right? Uh,

423
00:35:58.039 --> 00:36:07.679
I forget what that's what one I'm
watching another movie and that's called The

424
00:36:08.000 --> 00:36:14.400
Vands Conference, and there's two versions
of it. One was put out I

425
00:36:14.480 --> 00:36:20.159
believe by this by an Israeli filmmaker
in the seventies or nineteen eighty or so.

426
00:36:20.679 --> 00:36:23.440
None. Another one is on HBO. It might have been retitled,

427
00:36:23.880 --> 00:36:32.800
but so with the hall cost There
was a famous meeting at this place,

428
00:36:34.679 --> 00:36:42.519
uh called Vandasi. It was a
you know, the fancy living quarters like

429
00:36:43.079 --> 00:36:50.159
mansion um in Austria somewhere. But
anyway, Um, they had been killing

430
00:36:50.960 --> 00:36:59.199
people, shooting people on a mass
scale, and then at this conference the

431
00:36:59.360 --> 00:37:02.440
decision was made to use gas.
Well, right, this was the point

432
00:37:02.440 --> 00:37:06.480
in which there were evaluations made,
and I've seen a dramatization of this.

433
00:37:06.599 --> 00:37:08.719
The HBO one was very well done. Actually, yeah, you see,

434
00:37:08.800 --> 00:37:13.800
you see what I'm talking about?
Oh yeah, where they do just for

435
00:37:13.920 --> 00:37:15.360
the listener, well for the listener, just Mike, let me help out

436
00:37:15.400 --> 00:37:20.320
the listener a little bit. Is
that this is a dramatization that I saw

437
00:37:20.400 --> 00:37:23.360
on HBO of this conference where you
know, they're sitting there saying, look,

438
00:37:23.360 --> 00:37:25.840
we're rounding people up, we're shooting
them, we're drowning them. But

439
00:37:25.960 --> 00:37:31.360
it's not very efficient. And apparently
there's historical documentation to back up a lot

440
00:37:31.440 --> 00:37:35.199
of this, where they say,
look, it's just not efficient. It's

441
00:37:35.239 --> 00:37:38.440
not working out well. We're wasting
bullets and time and manpower. We can

442
00:37:38.519 --> 00:37:44.199
do it in a much more efficient
mechanized way, which is allegedly where this

443
00:37:44.440 --> 00:37:47.239
concept of the final solution gets born. And it's a weird thing because even

444
00:37:47.320 --> 00:37:52.559
now today we have propaganda going in
the other direction where look, you know,

445
00:37:52.480 --> 00:37:55.679
Jewish people are part of our culture
and they need to be recognized as

446
00:37:55.760 --> 00:37:59.320
such, and so on and so
forth. I don't know if you saw

447
00:37:59.320 --> 00:38:00.719
it, but there was like,
you know, Jewish Heritage month. I

448
00:38:00.840 --> 00:38:05.320
forget if it's May or June,
because I just saw it the other day

449
00:38:05.320 --> 00:38:08.079
and it's on the cusp of the
change of the month, right where you

450
00:38:08.159 --> 00:38:14.360
know that that is now a propaganda
out there to reverse the negative stereotypes,

451
00:38:14.440 --> 00:38:19.719
etc. Which which are are part
of what goes on. But again you

452
00:38:19.840 --> 00:38:23.559
got propaganda pushes for various reasons.
Um, what's interesting here is we're going

453
00:38:23.599 --> 00:38:29.079
to transition into talking about something else
very soon, So I want to let

454
00:38:29.119 --> 00:38:30.679
you get out your final thoughts on
this portion of it. We'll take a

455
00:38:30.719 --> 00:38:35.199
little break and then we're gonna spend
the last little bit of the hour on

456
00:38:35.239 --> 00:38:39.760
the point I'm trying to make is
that if you watch this fansea conference thing,

457
00:38:40.480 --> 00:38:45.960
what you see is how it's planned
out, and the people that are

458
00:38:45.000 --> 00:38:52.119
planning it out they're basically a bunch
of bureaucrats. They're not fanatical, foaming

459
00:38:52.159 --> 00:38:57.519
at the mouth most of them.
One or two were, but most of

460
00:38:57.639 --> 00:39:01.400
them are just regular bureaucrats. In
fact, two people I want to point

461
00:39:01.440 --> 00:39:07.960
out that were there. One was
the head of the Gestapo, not the

462
00:39:08.239 --> 00:39:17.559
SS but the Gestapo that like the
police, and this guy, before Hitler

463
00:39:17.679 --> 00:39:23.000
took power, was had the same
basic position. He's head of the State

464
00:39:23.440 --> 00:39:29.079
Secret Police of Germany. Before Hitler
took power, and he was against the

465
00:39:29.159 --> 00:39:32.039
Nazis. He was spying, you
know, he had his people watching and

466
00:39:32.199 --> 00:39:37.480
spying on Nazis. And then when
Hitler took power, he just joined just

467
00:39:37.079 --> 00:39:40.760
kept doing it for them, you
know, he just kept the same position

468
00:39:42.480 --> 00:39:46.800
and it was one of the most
important people inside their security state. And

469
00:39:46.960 --> 00:39:52.639
so here is a guy that's not
an ideological Nazi, but it's just this

470
00:39:53.559 --> 00:39:59.599
like Jagger Hoover type or something,
just sudden bureaucrat that goes along and just

471
00:40:00.000 --> 00:40:02.760
you know, has his position and
you know, is very you know,

472
00:40:02.840 --> 00:40:07.480
he plays a big role in the
mecha. The carrying out of the hall

473
00:40:07.599 --> 00:40:14.280
cost. Another guy was like a
judge who was one of the top judges.

474
00:40:14.360 --> 00:40:19.760
You know, he invented the Nuremberg
Code that was used to discriminate against

475
00:40:19.800 --> 00:40:24.039
Jewish people and remove them basically from
civil society before the war started. And

476
00:40:24.199 --> 00:40:29.840
he attends this conference and he basically
says, I don't want to do this,

477
00:40:30.159 --> 00:40:32.960
this is too extreme. I'm not
gonna do it, and they just

478
00:40:34.599 --> 00:40:37.239
that's all right. He just doesn't
do anything. The point of that is

479
00:40:37.320 --> 00:40:45.480
that that shows that in many cases
the Germans had a choice that were involved

480
00:40:45.519 --> 00:40:49.880
in this stuff whether to do it
or not. You know, they had

481
00:40:50.000 --> 00:40:52.519
it's the idea that they all had
to fallow orders is well, there's a

482
00:40:52.639 --> 00:40:57.599
yes to note to that that some
resistance was was there. But once the

483
00:40:58.039 --> 00:41:01.559
you know, just like anything else
that we've discussed about political uh situations and

484
00:41:01.719 --> 00:41:07.360
the sort of gravity or the inertia, if you will, of the of

485
00:41:07.440 --> 00:41:12.039
the bureaucratic system, in some cases, once momentum gets moving in a certain

486
00:41:12.079 --> 00:41:15.920
direction, I mean, there's nothing
somebody who's within it. It's not like

487
00:41:16.000 --> 00:41:19.360
he'd be able to stop it.
He might have been able to withdraw from

488
00:41:19.400 --> 00:41:23.599
it. But see, there might
have been but there might have been consequences.

489
00:41:24.199 --> 00:41:27.239
Wait a second, Mike, there
might have been consequences to that,

490
00:41:27.639 --> 00:41:30.519
and it is very interesting. We're
going to skip the break and go straight

491
00:41:30.559 --> 00:41:35.400
to Larry in the next hour.
But um, but what there are consequences

492
00:41:35.519 --> 00:41:38.039
that might have come along with that
that maybe aren't revealed. What is interesting,

493
00:41:38.119 --> 00:41:43.960
though, is that during that dramatization, you could clearly recognize that there

494
00:41:44.000 --> 00:41:47.079
were people that really looked at it
as just a bureaucratic issue. I mean,

495
00:41:47.599 --> 00:41:51.639
they were sorting out people like they
were sorting out you know, paperwork.

496
00:41:52.079 --> 00:41:53.119
Oh well, I guess we'll make
it. You know, we'll staple

497
00:41:53.159 --> 00:41:58.239
it together every ten pages. Uh, well, we'll just stop using bullets

498
00:41:58.239 --> 00:42:00.280
and we'll use gas. It'll be
more efficient, save money. I mean,

499
00:42:00.480 --> 00:42:05.239
there were people looking at it as
cold as that. There were others

500
00:42:05.320 --> 00:42:07.440
that were fanatical. There were others
that were maybe going, man, I

501
00:42:07.480 --> 00:42:10.320
don't know if this is a great
idea, you know, glory of Germany,

502
00:42:10.400 --> 00:42:15.480
but we need to do this.
It just shows that everything wasn't homogeneous,

503
00:42:15.639 --> 00:42:22.519
It wasn't completely just you know,
an entire nation of bloodthirsty people.

504
00:42:22.639 --> 00:42:25.880
There were various directions that some people
looked at it from, you know,

505
00:42:27.440 --> 00:42:31.119
and look, I'm not going to
argue the guilt or whatever of individuals depending

506
00:42:31.119 --> 00:42:36.280
on the different tiers they may have
been involved here. But what I am

507
00:42:36.360 --> 00:42:40.000
saying is that there is a nuance
that one needs to recognize that it wasn't

508
00:42:40.079 --> 00:42:44.960
necessarily just you know, like a
lot of history channel presentations look at the

509
00:42:45.039 --> 00:42:51.239
evil that was an entire nation,
well maybe not an entire nation. I'm

510
00:42:51.280 --> 00:42:54.119
not trying to make excuses or anything. What I'm saying is that you can't

511
00:42:54.199 --> 00:43:00.320
always assume that everybody in any ways
one hundred percent on board with anything once

512
00:43:00.400 --> 00:43:04.719
you start adding people to the equation, right, I mean, it's difficult

513
00:43:04.719 --> 00:43:07.199
to get five people in a room
to agree, I'm what type of pizza

514
00:43:07.239 --> 00:43:10.360
to order, Mike, you know
what I'm saying. So it's literally like

515
00:43:10.559 --> 00:43:14.920
that, and I think nuance,
all this stuff is important. And the

516
00:43:14.960 --> 00:43:17.400
funny thing is we didn't even hardly
get to the JFK thing, which I

517
00:43:17.519 --> 00:43:20.960
was going to get to with you
and definitely going to cover with Larry,

518
00:43:21.480 --> 00:43:23.960
because we could talk about the propaganda
involved there. We could talk about the

519
00:43:24.000 --> 00:43:32.280
different films both pushing in various different
directions regarding conspiracy advocacy, regarding the lone

520
00:43:32.360 --> 00:43:37.159
Nuts solution, if you will.
We've seen this go on and on and

521
00:43:37.280 --> 00:43:42.880
on throughout our lives, where there's
been different shifts and different sort of postures

522
00:43:42.960 --> 00:43:46.199
taken by the government, the officials, the people involved. I was searching

523
00:43:46.280 --> 00:43:52.119
in my mind for Robert Tannenbaum's name
earlier because he wrote a fictional book two

524
00:43:52.639 --> 00:43:57.519
that had a lot of truth in
it related to the assassination. And meanwhile,

525
00:43:57.599 --> 00:44:01.679
he was an investigator on the HSA
during a time when Blakey was there,

526
00:44:01.719 --> 00:44:07.480
and you know, I would argue
that that portion of it was kind

527
00:44:07.480 --> 00:44:13.360
of a limited hangout and it's still
having residence today. I know you saw

528
00:44:13.440 --> 00:44:19.400
the recent thing passed around about Gail
Nick Jackson and her attempts to retrieve her

529
00:44:19.480 --> 00:44:23.719
grandfather's film. She's got a lawsuit
going now, and indeed there's proof that

530
00:44:23.880 --> 00:44:30.440
she's assembled in a very interesting way
that the HSCA literally had their hands on

531
00:44:30.559 --> 00:44:34.880
the film that she has been now
in search of for forty years, right

532
00:44:35.480 --> 00:44:37.199
so, you know, or maybe
longer. I'm not sure how long she's

533
00:44:37.199 --> 00:44:40.760
actually been involved in it, but
my understanding is she's been looking to find

534
00:44:40.800 --> 00:44:45.400
her grandfather's original film now for about
forty years, and even a small issue

535
00:44:45.480 --> 00:44:51.440
like that can reveal a great deal
about the way propaganda has handled, about

536
00:44:51.480 --> 00:44:54.000
the way government handles, you know, things that are supposed to be important

537
00:44:54.039 --> 00:45:00.719
documentation, whether it's a film or
historical document etc. Very fast. Gotten

538
00:45:00.719 --> 00:45:04.199
a little bit of attention in the
New York Post and stuff recently, but

539
00:45:04.760 --> 00:45:07.679
nationally you don't hear it being discussed
very much. It's not a headline news

540
00:45:07.760 --> 00:45:12.559
event. And very much like what
we were talking about with the Rise and

541
00:45:12.639 --> 00:45:15.199
Fall of the Third Reich, that
wasn't just popular in the fifties, that

542
00:45:15.400 --> 00:45:22.760
continued to be a mildly popular book
for decades because of the revelatory way with

543
00:45:22.880 --> 00:45:27.360
which a lot of things were revealed
there. People are always curious to know

544
00:45:27.440 --> 00:45:30.800
about history, but at the same
time display some levels of apathy too.

545
00:45:31.440 --> 00:45:36.679
So it's very interesting and it's and
it's a great it's a great effort that

546
00:45:36.760 --> 00:45:39.039
you're going to be involved in here
with this next Vietnam book. Can't wait

547
00:45:39.119 --> 00:45:43.280
to see how it turns out.
But now I'll just shut up and give

548
00:45:43.320 --> 00:45:46.280
you about four or five minutes to
conclude anything you want to conclude here,

549
00:45:46.800 --> 00:45:51.400
but we're going to talk to Larry
Hancock in the next hour about the reframing

550
00:45:51.440 --> 00:45:53.480
of Lee Harvey Oswald. And I
don't mean to frame him for a crime.

551
00:45:53.840 --> 00:45:58.440
So by all means, Mike,
go ahead continue. Yeah, yeah,

552
00:45:58.599 --> 00:46:04.519
yeah, I'll just connect how this
applies the assassination, the whole the

553
00:46:04.920 --> 00:46:10.800
Germany stuff. So the second his
historical argument about the Hall cost is that

554
00:46:12.840 --> 00:46:17.840
it drew out of the bureaucracy,
and it wasn't simple like Hitler. You

555
00:46:17.960 --> 00:46:22.760
know, he didn't dream up himself
personally how it would be carried out.

556
00:46:22.840 --> 00:46:30.199
He didn't come up with the idea
of putting people in concentration camps and gassing

557
00:46:30.280 --> 00:46:37.920
them. What happened is he would
create the broad policy objectives, which when

558
00:46:37.960 --> 00:46:40.400
it comes to this topic, the
first wasn't actually that's just kill everybody,

559
00:46:40.840 --> 00:46:50.519
but it was removed them from Germany. And as the war developed, they

560
00:46:50.639 --> 00:46:52.960
came up with different ideas of how
to do that. Let's send people into

561
00:46:53.039 --> 00:46:59.599
Poland, maybe after we defeat the
Soviet Union would just keep sending them further

562
00:46:59.679 --> 00:47:04.679
and further their east and use people
as slaves. Basically, well you just

563
00:47:05.000 --> 00:47:07.239
enfranchise them. Yeah, they would
disenfranchise them send them to the ghettos,

564
00:47:07.320 --> 00:47:09.760
this kind of thing, so that
they would be concentrated, not in a

565
00:47:09.880 --> 00:47:14.880
camp, but in an area which
would restrict their movement, restrict everything they

566
00:47:14.920 --> 00:47:17.199
could do, and it would strip
them of all of the things that they

567
00:47:17.239 --> 00:47:22.719
had gained throughout their lives and they
would become non persons that would be pushed

568
00:47:22.760 --> 00:47:28.800
out of the territorial area. That
was one methodology, And again your bureaucrats

569
00:47:28.880 --> 00:47:31.920
came around and said, not very
efficient, boss, so they would present

570
00:47:32.000 --> 00:47:35.920
them with other ideas. I mean, that's the way I understandable go ahead.

571
00:47:36.599 --> 00:47:42.480
What happened was once they started to
lose the war and you started to

572
00:47:43.039 --> 00:47:47.039
go you know, they were going
backwards and stead of forwards, the realization

573
00:47:47.159 --> 00:47:52.119
came that we're not gonna be able
to take put them somewhere else, and

574
00:47:52.239 --> 00:47:54.840
they started to say, well,
we're just gonna have to start to kill

575
00:47:54.920 --> 00:48:01.199
them here. So that's, in
a nutshell, you know, the the

576
00:48:01.519 --> 00:48:07.360
driving force of what happened. But
um, the ideas of how to do

577
00:48:07.480 --> 00:48:16.360
it would be created by mid level
people and then taken to the top for

578
00:48:16.480 --> 00:48:22.880
approval and then implemented. The point
of that is that that's how I think

579
00:48:23.360 --> 00:48:32.360
basically all national security states operate.
Is very rarely is someone like let's say

580
00:48:32.360 --> 00:48:39.800
Alan Dulles coming up with this master
plan to do something. But instead people

581
00:48:39.840 --> 00:48:44.719
in the lower levels are coming up
with ideas and then getting them if they

582
00:48:44.840 --> 00:48:50.440
match the objectives, the broad objectives
as outline you know, at the top,

583
00:48:51.119 --> 00:48:53.039
then they can get get them improved, and then they implement them.

584
00:48:53.079 --> 00:48:58.880
And that whole process, though pretty
much gets lost to history, you know,

585
00:48:59.239 --> 00:49:01.119
right, well, and that's an
interesting thing too, that often the

586
00:49:01.199 --> 00:49:05.800
missed thing, right is that people
want to point the figure at the prominent

587
00:49:05.960 --> 00:49:10.960
character who indeed did create a policy, but didn't create all the mechanisms by

588
00:49:12.039 --> 00:49:15.519
which it was enacted. So,
you know, there are lots of other

589
00:49:15.559 --> 00:49:19.159
thing and we talked about this before
about contingency plans and things like that.

590
00:49:19.280 --> 00:49:22.519
How there are people employed as we
speak right now, coming up with contingency

591
00:49:22.599 --> 00:49:28.320
plans that might have no realistic use
at any point in time, but they

592
00:49:28.400 --> 00:49:31.519
want them in hand because the guy
who's in control of the situation, the

593
00:49:31.840 --> 00:49:37.639
alandules is say, in your scenario, they get handed a whole lot of

594
00:49:37.719 --> 00:49:40.400
work that somebody else already did and
said, you know, if we use

595
00:49:40.519 --> 00:49:44.079
this and we use this kind of
person and so on and so forth.

596
00:49:44.199 --> 00:49:45.880
This is what it would cost us, and this is what it would take

597
00:49:45.920 --> 00:49:50.679
to get it done this way.
And they hand them mechanisms and choices,

598
00:49:51.360 --> 00:49:54.840
and that is the functionality of the
bureaucracy, right, I mean, it

599
00:49:54.920 --> 00:50:00.840
doesn't matter if it's military intelligence,
if it's a you know, governmental social

600
00:50:00.960 --> 00:50:05.280
issues taking care of food stamps,
all his stuff. Somebody's in charge,

601
00:50:05.360 --> 00:50:08.480
yes, indeed, but they are
not usually even the visionary. They just

602
00:50:08.760 --> 00:50:13.360
kind of sign off on things and
a whole lot of people figure out the

603
00:50:13.440 --> 00:50:16.159
nuts and bolts of how to get
that done. And that's all levels of

604
00:50:16.280 --> 00:50:22.679
subordinates and uh that that's a reality
that a lot of people miss when they're

605
00:50:22.920 --> 00:50:27.039
interested in the historical, you know, topic of any kind. Right,

606
00:50:27.360 --> 00:50:30.880
And it doesn't matter if it's a
nefarious thing or if it's a mundane operation.

607
00:50:31.400 --> 00:50:36.599
It all functions sort of the same, right Yeah, I agree,

608
00:50:37.039 --> 00:50:38.360
Yeah for sure. So to me, the idea I like to say,

609
00:50:38.519 --> 00:50:44.199
like George Bush killed Kennedy, Yeah, yeah, I don't really think that

610
00:50:44.320 --> 00:50:45.840
makes any sense. Well, yeah, exactly, because a he would have

611
00:50:45.920 --> 00:50:51.159
never been the mechanic. He's shown
no proclivity for being a you know,

612
00:50:51.239 --> 00:50:53.679
an assassin, a shooter, right. I mean this is I realized he

613
00:50:53.800 --> 00:50:57.079
was, you know, a veteran
and he was a pilot and whatnot.

614
00:50:57.840 --> 00:51:01.559
But honestly, his track record shows
nothing that would suggest that he's like the

615
00:51:01.639 --> 00:51:07.760
guy who's dreaming up you know,
ways to lay out shooters and things like

616
00:51:07.840 --> 00:51:10.599
this. It's not his area of
expertise. Now, if you're saying to

617
00:51:10.679 --> 00:51:14.360
me that he's a guy who would
have dreamed this up, I again object

618
00:51:14.480 --> 00:51:19.840
because he wasn't in a position of
power where he's being presented all these you

619
00:51:19.920 --> 00:51:22.920
know, underlings plans and objectives and
things like that. So he's really not

620
00:51:23.000 --> 00:51:28.280
in a good spot in my mind
to be a mastermind or a mechanic,

621
00:51:28.519 --> 00:51:31.159
right. And this is the problem, you know, and people mix the

622
00:51:31.239 --> 00:51:34.719
two up where it's like, this
is a smart guy. He knows how

623
00:51:34.760 --> 00:51:37.599
to get things done, but that's
not the guy who gives the orders.

624
00:51:37.599 --> 00:51:40.159
A lot of times, you know, the man who is the expert shooter.

625
00:51:40.880 --> 00:51:45.840
You know, even a famous sniper
like Carlos Hathcock. He's not deciding

626
00:51:45.880 --> 00:51:50.199
what missions to go on, but
he knows how to execute them, right.

627
00:51:51.639 --> 00:51:55.679
And that's the thing here. There
are people play their different roles here,

628
00:51:55.719 --> 00:51:59.519
and I think a lot of people
ascribe it's like, that's the the

629
00:51:59.760 --> 00:52:02.400
very mastermind. That's the guy who
came up with everything. He's the guy

630
00:52:02.440 --> 00:52:05.880
who comes up with all the little
details. And it's like, dude,

631
00:52:06.239 --> 00:52:08.840
that's not the way the real world
works, you know. And uh,

632
00:52:09.119 --> 00:52:13.840
And that's the fascinating thing to go
through when you actually study these things from

633
00:52:13.840 --> 00:52:16.719
a realistic perspective. What do you
think of that, Mike, Yeah,

634
00:52:16.880 --> 00:52:23.199
for sure. And one of the
things that they were studying at the right

635
00:52:23.239 --> 00:52:30.199
before the assassination a couple of months
beforehand, Desmond Fitzgerald, who was overseeing

636
00:52:30.360 --> 00:52:35.719
all the CIA operations against Cuba,
he was at a meeting of the Joint

637
00:52:37.000 --> 00:52:46.840
of the Joint Chiefs of Staff and
said that they're studying how the failed assassination

638
00:52:46.960 --> 00:52:52.199
attempt against Hitler was carried out,
so maybe they could apply that against Castro

639
00:52:52.360 --> 00:52:58.679
somehow. So you know that they
were studying these sort of things themselves to

640
00:52:58.760 --> 00:53:00.199
figure out how to do stuff right. Well. I mean, listen,

641
00:53:00.239 --> 00:53:06.480
if you have a successful or an
unsuccessful assassination plot that you know the details

642
00:53:06.519 --> 00:53:09.360
about, you could learn from that
if you're looking to enact your own right

643
00:53:09.519 --> 00:53:13.119
Okay, where did these guys fail? You mean to tell me this simple

644
00:53:13.199 --> 00:53:15.960
mistake and maybe all these things would
have just went down properly and it failed.

645
00:53:16.480 --> 00:53:20.800
Great, Now we've got another one
that's completely successful. But why did

646
00:53:20.880 --> 00:53:24.199
it succeed? Maybe we can copy
some of those things. Okay, this

647
00:53:24.440 --> 00:53:28.679
is the way they handled the press, this is the way they handled the

648
00:53:28.800 --> 00:53:32.719
guy's personal security. These were successful
methodologies. Would they work the same way

649
00:53:32.840 --> 00:53:37.599
here? Yeah? And there's a
whole array of underlings that are studying these

650
00:53:37.679 --> 00:53:43.719
things like at all times, right, So it's not always just the mastermind,

651
00:53:43.800 --> 00:53:46.400
the prominent, the prominent name.
I argue, in fact, that

652
00:53:46.519 --> 00:53:51.599
the majority of the people that come
up with the nuts and bolts are very

653
00:53:51.760 --> 00:53:54.599
difficult to discover for people like you
and me, because we have to dig

654
00:53:54.679 --> 00:53:59.320
through many layers, and then you
don't have a headline name that people are

655
00:53:59.320 --> 00:54:01.920
attracted to that want to learn about. It's it's very difficult. You like,

656
00:54:02.360 --> 00:54:06.800
just the thing about the Holocaust,
Like I said, I've read a

657
00:54:06.920 --> 00:54:09.840
book describing all this and the names, and you know who did the innovations,

658
00:54:09.840 --> 00:54:13.920
who tested that, who came up
the idea of using gas, and

659
00:54:14.440 --> 00:54:17.440
who they had people tested on people
and this and that. You know,

660
00:54:17.840 --> 00:54:22.599
I forget who these people are.
You can't know, but you needed engineers.

661
00:54:22.719 --> 00:54:27.760
They're totally unmemorable. You know,
you needed people with scientific knowledge,

662
00:54:27.760 --> 00:54:30.719
you needed people with engineering backgrounds,
you needed all that. And that's not

663
00:54:30.880 --> 00:54:32.880
the guy who's walking around goose stepping. Okay, it's just not the guy.

664
00:54:34.960 --> 00:54:37.119
But they need to hand the information
to those guys in order for them

665
00:54:37.159 --> 00:54:42.719
to enact their bigger plan, which
again was probably handed to somebody else.

666
00:54:42.800 --> 00:54:45.880
I mean, you know, a
guy who actually moves people is not always

667
00:54:45.920 --> 00:54:49.880
the guy who owns the company,
right. That's why there are personnel managers

668
00:54:50.039 --> 00:54:53.599
in any organization. So you know, there's that aspect of it too,

669
00:54:53.679 --> 00:54:57.360
where their whole job is not to
think, is not to create, is

670
00:54:57.400 --> 00:55:00.480
not to do anything. It is
just to manage people to accomplish the goals

671
00:55:00.719 --> 00:55:05.519
that they are given. So you
know, again there are many layers to

672
00:55:05.639 --> 00:55:07.920
it, and there's a lot of
things to be studied. Meanwhile, we're

673
00:55:07.960 --> 00:55:12.960
going to study a few things in
the next hour with Larry Hancock, stick

674
00:55:13.000 --> 00:55:16.360
around Mike Swanson, Wallstreet, Window
dot Com again being the no go to

675
00:55:16.480 --> 00:55:22.239
Wall Street Window dot Com, and
learn a great deal about the world around

676
00:55:22.280 --> 00:55:25.360
you. It's not just about Wall
Street. Also the author of the War

677
00:55:25.519 --> 00:55:30.159
State and Why the Vietnam War,
the first in a series of at least

678
00:55:30.199 --> 00:55:32.599
three volumes on that conflict, and
I'm looking forward to it. Mike,

679
00:55:34.079 --> 00:55:37.679
thanks for being here, and I
definitely look forward to Larry Hancock in the

680
00:55:37.760 --> 00:55:51.159
next hour. Wallstreet, Window dot
com, Silver the stock Market, Wallstreet,

681
00:55:51.440 --> 00:55:55.960
Window dot dot Perhaps you're invested deeply, Perhaps you're not in deep enough.

682
00:55:57.159 --> 00:56:01.119
Maybe you're thinking about getting started Walls, Windows dot com, doos dot

683
00:56:01.199 --> 00:56:06.840
com. Michael Swanson, the brilliant
author of the War State, understood these

684
00:56:06.920 --> 00:56:09.800
trends professionally for many years, and
now he gives you the benefit of his

685
00:56:09.960 --> 00:56:16.960
knowledge. Wall three Street, indow
dot com. Go there, now,

686
00:56:17.119 --> 00:56:22.239
go there, now there. Now
you're listening to the o'helly dot com radio

687
00:56:22.360 --> 00:57:00.239
network. Did you like history?
Real history that you were never taught in

688
00:57:00.400 --> 00:57:07.960
schools? Why the Vietnam War Nuclear
Bombs in Nation Building in Southeast Asia by

689
00:57:07.000 --> 00:57:13.760
author Mike Swanson, with new documentation
never seen before that will open your eyes

690
00:57:13.920 --> 00:57:17.960
to events that led up to this. Why the Vietnam War Nuclear Bombs in

691
00:57:19.159 --> 00:57:24.639
Nation Building in Southeast Asia nineteen forty
five through nineteen sixty one. Get your

692
00:57:24.679 --> 00:57:30.920
copy today at Amazon dot com.
Why the Vietnam War by author Mike Swanson.

693
00:57:31.000 --> 00:57:34.519
Go ahead, go away, I
live in the truth about the day

694
00:57:34.559 --> 00:57:37.400
of aassassination? Right, Well,
what do you want to know Judie Baker's

695
00:57:37.480 --> 00:57:42.119
wild claim Oswald girlfriends he knew Ruby
and Barry Dancer weapons. Really, I

696
00:57:42.199 --> 00:57:45.079
imagine I could claim I have four
wheels. It doesn't make me a wagon.

697
00:57:45.239 --> 00:57:49.559
But okay, Oswald was Onmadotean and
France prevent the murder of John Kennedy.

698
00:57:49.599 --> 00:57:52.760
Come on, now has a real
ecort on the daykay as fascination go

699
00:57:52.960 --> 00:57:57.960
into reclining. Go to Amazon dot
com, enter Judas Baker in her own

700
00:57:58.039 --> 00:58:01.239
words. You'll get results for a
digital copy of a book where Walt Brown

701
00:58:01.480 --> 00:58:07.440
utilizes her own words and the known
evidence in the case to get at well

702
00:58:07.000 --> 00:58:12.039
a different perspective. Let's say you
can get Judith Arry Baker in her own

703
00:58:12.159 --> 00:58:16.079
words from the author himself, signed
if you request it by contacting doctor Brown

704
00:58:16.119 --> 00:58:22.199
at KIA s JFK at aol dot
com. It's a fun book and it

705
00:58:22.320 --> 00:58:28.559
actually dissects the many, many fantastic
claims Judith Arry Baker in her own words

706
00:58:29.320 --> 00:58:31.639
all the great information. This is
James Formatt Qarber Report dot com and you're

707
00:58:31.679 --> 00:58:45.400
listening to the Ocelly Affected o'ceelly dot
com. Going to Chuck o'celly. You're

708
00:58:45.480 --> 00:58:49.280
Chuca Shelley. You know, Shelley. You are about doing market upon the

709
00:58:49.360 --> 00:58:52.239
great rotate. The eyes of the
world are upon you. The hopes and

710
00:58:52.400 --> 00:58:59.000
prayers of liberty loving people everywhere march
with you, in company with our bred

711
00:58:59.119 --> 00:59:04.119
allies, rather than armed on other
front. Your cat will not be an

712
00:59:04.159 --> 00:59:07.440
easy one. Your enemy of well
trained, well equipped, and latter heart,

713
00:59:08.239 --> 00:59:15.880
he will fight that demand demand.
The tide had turned. The three

714
00:59:15.960 --> 00:59:21.199
men of the world are marking together
to victory, good luck, and let

715
00:59:21.239 --> 00:59:30.280
it all be but of Almighty God
upon the great and noble under than in

716
00:59:30.519 --> 00:59:37.639
Denial the Secret Wars with air strikes
and tanks by Larry Hancock. Secret wars

717
00:59:37.840 --> 00:59:44.000
became a staple of US covert operations
and are still happening today. Larry Hancock's

718
00:59:44.039 --> 00:59:47.360
book In Denial rips the cover off
many of them, using new files.

719
00:59:47.400 --> 00:59:52.159
It exposes things about the Bay of
Pigs that no one has ever written about

720
00:59:52.199 --> 00:59:55.320
before. It shows why it really
failed and why the United States did not

721
00:59:55.599 --> 01:00:00.400
learn from it. It also shows
why other countries today are in secret operations

722
01:00:00.480 --> 01:00:05.800
with more success. This is the
book that puts what some want to deny

723
01:00:06.159 --> 01:00:12.559
into the light. In Denial secret
wars with air strikes and tanks Larry Hancock.

724
01:00:13.760 --> 01:00:16.840
For more information, go to Larry
hyphen Hancock dot com. Pick up

725
01:00:16.920 --> 01:00:22.719
your copy of In Denial at Amazon
dot com. In digital or physical force,

726
01:00:25.239 --> 01:00:32.920
what would I do? Revelation through
conversation in a radio show slash podcast.

727
01:00:35.039 --> 01:00:40.280
You want the good news? Listen
to the o'celly effect. Shack o'celli

728
01:00:40.719 --> 01:00:46.800
is the most underrated voice in all
media, news, education, and entertainment.

729
01:00:47.320 --> 01:00:53.559
But daily bread from o'celly dot com. Go there, save yourself from

730
01:00:53.639 --> 01:01:00.679
ignorance o'celly dot com. But we
all agreed to put o'ceelly dot com on

731
01:01:01.000 --> 01:02:07.880
and listen to the ocelly effect.
Revelation through conversation ocelly dot com. See

732
01:02:07.800 --> 01:02:22.880
you watch yourself to see that you
want your screen, ride back and ship.

733
01:02:27.719 --> 01:02:39.440
Listen to what you want more?
They can say, try if we

734
01:02:39.719 --> 01:04:00.239
are not will love well watch you
come. This is oh chilly dot call

735
01:04:00.480 --> 01:04:18.000
Devilation through conversation. Second segment of
this Thor's day night, o'celly effect now

736
01:04:18.320 --> 01:04:23.159
in effect if you will at o'ceelly
dot com and the various places that you

737
01:04:23.239 --> 01:04:27.400
get your podcast from, because I
don't know you're you're mostly listening at other

738
01:04:27.480 --> 01:04:30.440
times, other places and all that
good stuff. Meanwhile, are you lucky?

739
01:04:30.599 --> 01:04:35.559
Yes you are because you have the
second segment featuring author Larry Hancock,

740
01:04:36.000 --> 01:04:42.079
who again occupies more spots on my
bookshelf than any other author with good reason.

741
01:04:42.199 --> 01:04:45.960
Actually, I talked to somebody recently
about you quickly, Larry, and

742
01:04:46.239 --> 01:04:50.800
UH was saying, yeah, well, obviously run things by Larry Hancock if

743
01:04:50.840 --> 01:04:55.159
you can. First, when when
somebody said what do you think of this?

744
01:04:56.239 --> 01:05:00.559
Regarding a presentation that had to do
with JFK. But you do a

745
01:05:00.639 --> 01:05:02.400
lot of other things. I could
list all of his books if you like

746
01:05:02.639 --> 01:05:09.239
everybody. I mean creating Chaos Unidentified, which I look forward to speaking about

747
01:05:09.320 --> 01:05:14.480
in the very near future. But
tonight we're going to talk about Well,

748
01:05:14.639 --> 01:05:16.719
what I keep saying is the reframing
of Oswald, and I don't mean framing

749
01:05:16.800 --> 01:05:21.280
him for the crime. I do
mean reframing the portrait. Larry tends to

750
01:05:21.400 --> 01:05:26.159
use the phrase, how about we
look at Oswald in three dimensions, get

751
01:05:26.239 --> 01:05:29.440
away from the two dimensional viewpoints that
a lot of people have on this.

752
01:05:30.159 --> 01:05:33.840
And I'm gonna let Larry explain it, because he is well, really the

753
01:05:34.159 --> 01:05:42.360
most consistent historical presenter on the show
who comes up with some rather sober and

754
01:05:42.880 --> 01:05:47.119
excellent points of view regarding things that
are not necessarily the mainstream point of view

755
01:05:47.199 --> 01:05:50.960
always. But as we talked about
with Mike in the first hour, he

756
01:05:51.559 --> 01:05:57.280
is often involved with the behaviors of
the national security state. That is sort

757
01:05:57.320 --> 01:06:02.559
of the subgenre if you will,
that Larry focuses on mostly, and you

758
01:06:02.639 --> 01:06:06.719
can find that in surprise attack and
shadow warfare, which we mentioned in the

759
01:06:06.760 --> 01:06:11.159
first hour. But you know,
you go all the way back to someone

760
01:06:11.239 --> 01:06:15.599
would have talked, and indeed they
did talk. A lot of people did.

761
01:06:15.760 --> 01:06:19.320
But are we getting a clear view
of this historical character known as Lee

762
01:06:19.360 --> 01:06:26.639
Harvey Oswald from any side of the
alleged equation here, I don't think so.

763
01:06:26.840 --> 01:06:30.800
So I love the fact that Larry
is sort of re examining this after

764
01:06:30.880 --> 01:06:33.480
so many years of studying it,
and I'm glad to have you along.

765
01:06:33.599 --> 01:06:38.039
Larry. How are you doing tonight. I'm doing fine. It's good to

766
01:06:38.119 --> 01:06:43.679
be back. Chuck absolutely and go
to Larry dash Hancock dot com follow Larry's

767
01:06:43.760 --> 01:06:47.719
work and also could be could be
that if you're going to the Lancer Conferences

768
01:06:47.840 --> 01:06:50.840
year, which I am and I
know some of you guys are planning on

769
01:06:51.239 --> 01:06:55.480
meeting me there, you might be
able to meet Larry Hancock there as well,

770
01:06:56.800 --> 01:07:00.239
and looking forward to that. By
the way, I have secure you're

771
01:07:00.239 --> 01:07:04.039
a supply of some of Mike Swanson's
books, the Why the Vietnam War Book.

772
01:07:04.239 --> 01:07:09.679
I'm going to have those into at
the conference, along with other stuff.

773
01:07:10.159 --> 01:07:13.119
And I have the swag program going
on now. Once again, I'll

774
01:07:13.119 --> 01:07:16.800
make an announcement that if you want
to be part of a promotional video for

775
01:07:17.239 --> 01:07:20.840
the swag program, which is none
of this merchandise is going on sale,

776
01:07:21.440 --> 01:07:27.639
but for supporters of the network,
starting at a fifty dollars donation, you'll

777
01:07:27.719 --> 01:07:30.039
be guaranteed a hat from one of
the shows that you like on the network.

778
01:07:30.199 --> 01:07:33.760
You can pick that, but I'm
gonna randomly insert other swag, which

779
01:07:33.800 --> 01:07:40.159
could be T shirts, stickers,
key chains, wallets, even all of

780
01:07:40.199 --> 01:07:44.679
this stuff in very limited runs.
Only a handful of any of these products

781
01:07:44.719 --> 01:07:47.199
produced, and you'll be able to
get that deck of cards by the way

782
01:07:47.639 --> 01:07:53.840
and a few other things that are
specially branded celebrating the ten years of the

783
01:07:53.920 --> 01:07:57.960
o'celli effect that have been in effect, so to speak. So if you

784
01:07:58.000 --> 01:08:00.519
want to be a part of that
promotional video, which you'll take a couple

785
01:08:00.559 --> 01:08:02.920
of minutes to shoot and you use
Skype, get in touch with me,

786
01:08:03.280 --> 01:08:08.360
let me know, and we'll get
that done tonight and get it out probably

787
01:08:08.400 --> 01:08:12.840
by the morning, and hopefully I'll
get this podcast out because this is some

788
01:08:12.960 --> 01:08:15.719
good stuff. I mean, we
wound up talking about World War two and

789
01:08:15.840 --> 01:08:18.600
the Third Reich and propaganda in the
first hour, which I didn't expect,

790
01:08:19.119 --> 01:08:23.720
but that was historical context or something
else Mike is going to talk about in

791
01:08:23.960 --> 01:08:28.479
weeks to come, and hopefully we'll
be able to drag Carmine Savastano on the

792
01:08:28.520 --> 01:08:34.439
show to talk about maybe some evidence
destruction in the JFK assassination theater, if

793
01:08:34.479 --> 01:08:41.399
you will. But meanwhile, how
about evidence mutilation that's gone on regarding the

794
01:08:41.479 --> 01:08:48.359
historical character of Lee Harvey Oswald back
around Larry Hancock. So where should we

795
01:08:48.479 --> 01:08:53.000
begin with this conversation that I think
we're going to be able to accomplish in

796
01:08:53.079 --> 01:08:57.840
about forty minutes here, And I'm
gonna suspend the commercial break. We'll just

797
01:08:58.039 --> 01:09:01.039
end when we end, Larry,
where should we begin with this topic once

798
01:09:01.079 --> 01:09:05.319
again? Well, I think what
we need to do is, and you

799
01:09:05.439 --> 01:09:09.680
mentioned it several times in the remarks
that you just made, Chuck, is

800
01:09:10.239 --> 01:09:15.079
is to go back to historical sources. One of the things, you know,

801
01:09:15.760 --> 01:09:18.079
you and I have talked, and
we've done JFK one oh one,

802
01:09:18.239 --> 01:09:21.359
we've looked at all of this.
But one of the things I decided at

803
01:09:21.439 --> 01:09:27.359
this point in time was that I
needed to go back and take a look

804
01:09:27.399 --> 01:09:32.640
at Lee Oswell from a truly historical
perspective, not from a Warrant Commission perspective,

805
01:09:32.840 --> 01:09:40.119
not from a JFK research community perspective, because I started getting the sense

806
01:09:40.399 --> 01:09:45.720
that everybody wanted to put him into
box and everybody wanted to treat him as

807
01:09:45.760 --> 01:09:49.920
a certain type of historical figure,
regardless of who he really was. And

808
01:09:50.119 --> 01:09:58.119
so I think the I think of
it as three dimensions is you know,

809
01:09:58.359 --> 01:10:03.399
the Warren Commission looked at the dimension
of Oswald as the presidential assassin, and

810
01:10:03.680 --> 01:10:08.359
quite frankly, that's what they were
interested in, and that was their charter.

811
01:10:08.880 --> 01:10:12.680
Well, the kookie kid, the
communist, Yeah, the kukie kid,

812
01:10:13.560 --> 01:10:16.199
the kookie kid, the communist,
the subversive. Obviously he would be

813
01:10:16.279 --> 01:10:19.520
the kind of guy who would do
this. They were pre judging him.

814
01:10:19.560 --> 01:10:23.279
I mean, even if you look
at the organization of the Warrant Commission to

815
01:10:23.319 --> 01:10:27.119
begin with, right, they set
up these subcommittees and I think, what

816
01:10:27.279 --> 01:10:29.560
was it, three or four or
five of them, maybe there was five

817
01:10:29.600 --> 01:10:32.479
altogether or four, and the majority
of them, at least three out of

818
01:10:32.560 --> 01:10:38.279
that box, were all about Lee
Harvey Oswald and his guilt basically, I

819
01:10:38.399 --> 01:10:43.000
mean, and that was it.
That was the predetermined kind of thing.

820
01:10:43.079 --> 01:10:45.840
And even people that want to advocate
for the idea that he was innocent,

821
01:10:46.600 --> 01:10:50.000
they go at it and try and
create a sympathetic character and so on and

822
01:10:50.119 --> 01:10:59.000
so forth, therefore influencing the end
results of what should honestly be objectively attained.

823
01:10:59.159 --> 01:11:02.399
Right, shouldn't we seize upon this
guy and figure out who he actually

824
01:11:02.720 --> 01:11:06.880
was forgetting about your sentimentality? Wouldn't
that be a wiser thing to do?

825
01:11:08.159 --> 01:11:12.960
Larry? Yeah? And I think
you can see it so clearly. I

826
01:11:13.199 --> 01:11:16.319
think I see it. You see
it more clearly if you really know the

827
01:11:16.399 --> 01:11:21.359
players. I mean, if you'd
know that the FBI was chartered to write

828
01:11:21.359 --> 01:11:26.319
a report presenting him as the single
assassination. Okay, well we know that

829
01:11:26.399 --> 01:11:30.119
as a fact. Let's just start
with that. And they are the primary

830
01:11:30.199 --> 01:11:34.920
source for the Warrant Commission. How
could the Warrant Commission deal with the subject

831
01:11:35.000 --> 01:11:40.479
objectively if that's their starting point,
right, I mean, it's just and

832
01:11:40.600 --> 01:11:45.359
then we look. I've been rereading
a lot of the testimony given it to

833
01:11:45.560 --> 01:11:49.920
the Warrant Commission, and you can
see that their staff members are working,

834
01:11:50.359 --> 01:11:56.119
you know, they're not their work, their prosecution staff. You can see

835
01:11:56.159 --> 01:12:00.880
it in the questions they ask,
the way they channel the interviews. I've

836
01:12:02.079 --> 01:12:08.560
people people have come down really hard
on people like Marina Oswald, But when

837
01:12:08.600 --> 01:12:12.920
you start looking at it, well, everybody says you can't trust anything Marina

838
01:12:12.960 --> 01:12:17.159
says because she lies. Actually in
a lot of cases she's pretty credible.

839
01:12:17.439 --> 01:12:23.119
They're just steering the questions to the
extent of putting her in a certain position

840
01:12:24.520 --> 01:12:27.880
or whatever she says supports. What's
they want? What do they want to

841
01:12:27.920 --> 01:12:36.479
support? You know, they steer
witnesses incredibly and obviously, so I think

842
01:12:36.600 --> 01:12:42.079
that's it's it's so clear. And
in the report itself. I've also been

843
01:12:42.199 --> 01:12:45.840
checking statements from people that they cite, you know, like Ian and I've

844
01:12:45.880 --> 01:12:50.800
talked about one of Oswald's buddies in
the Marine Corps, Delgado. Okay.

845
01:12:51.239 --> 01:12:57.840
Delgado had a lot to say about
Lee Oswald. Okay, And if you

846
01:12:57.960 --> 01:13:01.199
read his interviews, you know there's
a lot to say. But they just

847
01:13:01.520 --> 01:13:05.840
pick. When you you look at
get away from the interview and look at

848
01:13:05.920 --> 01:13:13.199
what goes into their summary report on
Leoswell's character, they cherry pick. So

849
01:13:14.159 --> 01:13:17.760
there they were building a case.
The Warren Commission report is and I had

850
01:13:17.800 --> 01:13:24.279
an investigation, it's an argument for
guilt, okay, and you know,

851
01:13:24.720 --> 01:13:29.359
just kind of accept that, and
certainly we do now. But I'm afraid

852
01:13:29.479 --> 01:13:33.720
that there are equal sins on the
other side because when I start looking at

853
01:13:33.800 --> 01:13:39.239
what's written by the JFK community,
as you said there, I mean,

854
01:13:39.960 --> 01:13:43.840
there is a lot of writing that
really wants to portray him as kind of

855
01:13:44.000 --> 01:13:50.680
being totally innocent, goable, um
plastic, if you will, pliable.

856
01:13:51.439 --> 01:13:56.520
You know, he's he's always being
used by someone, right enough, you

857
01:13:56.560 --> 01:14:00.680
know there's always people using it Leoswell. Give him orders Well on the one

858
01:14:00.800 --> 01:14:03.239
side, right on the one side, and they'll do that all the way

859
01:14:03.319 --> 01:14:06.680
from his mother to the Marine Corps
and on and on. They'll try and

860
01:14:06.760 --> 01:14:10.720
present him as a guy who was
constantly being told what to do on the

861
01:14:10.800 --> 01:14:14.000
one hand, but then when it
suits him, they'll go in another direction.

862
01:14:14.279 --> 01:14:15.720
And if you want to see something, I'm sure it's still available on

863
01:14:15.840 --> 01:14:20.600
YouTube. If you want to see
the type of steering of Delgado in particular,

864
01:14:20.960 --> 01:14:27.880
you can watch Bugliosi try and steer
him during that mock trial in what

865
01:14:28.000 --> 01:14:30.439
it was an eighty eight or eight, you know, in that time period

866
01:14:30.479 --> 01:14:34.000
there around the twenty fifth anniversary,
which of course grew into his ridiculous you

867
01:14:34.079 --> 01:14:39.000
know, cinder block of a book
later. But I mean that that whole

868
01:14:39.079 --> 01:14:44.439
thing that that British television company did
right the on trial the Harvey Oswald.

869
01:14:44.760 --> 01:14:48.840
You can watch Delgado get pushed around
and also express his attitude problems, which

870
01:14:48.880 --> 01:14:53.800
I got to experience talking to him
myself, where he's like, look,

871
01:14:53.840 --> 01:14:58.319
why are you guys trying to you
know, make me say stuff? Why

872
01:14:58.319 --> 01:15:00.399
are you know? And that's how
he interpreted, And that's literally what they

873
01:15:00.479 --> 01:15:04.119
do, because guess what it's not
even about look at look at the evil

874
01:15:04.279 --> 01:15:10.319
people trying to frame Lee. It's
actually just prosecutors doing what they do,

875
01:15:11.079 --> 01:15:14.520
which is why am I going to
bother finding out about whether this guy likes

876
01:15:14.560 --> 01:15:17.359
to whistle Dixie And while he works, it doesn't matter to my case.

877
01:15:17.960 --> 01:15:25.199
Let me just unearth the things that
are supportive of my prosecutorial brief, right,

878
01:15:26.359 --> 01:15:29.239
And that's what they did, whether
it was Bugliosi on TV or it

879
01:15:29.399 --> 01:15:32.560
was the Warren Commission, you know, during that process, which was not

880
01:15:32.720 --> 01:15:38.399
fairly adversarial, as Mark Lane famously
complained about, it wasn't like a real

881
01:15:39.199 --> 01:15:43.800
court proceeding, etc. Etc.
So there's a lot of ways to look

882
01:15:43.800 --> 01:15:45.560
at this, and yet at the
end of the day, what you end

883
01:15:45.640 --> 01:15:50.000
up with is if people go in
with a preconceived agenda, then they will

884
01:15:50.199 --> 01:15:57.159
shape what it is they choose to
not only highlight, but begin to collect,

885
01:15:57.439 --> 01:16:02.880
begin to reveal the others. And
therefore you're going to have an automatic

886
01:16:03.000 --> 01:16:08.359
distortion no matter what point you want
to make, because you really need to

887
01:16:08.439 --> 01:16:12.479
step back and allow the whole thing
to come in so that we have a

888
01:16:12.640 --> 01:16:18.439
clear picture of the historical character.
Right. Yeah, So the bottom line

889
01:16:18.600 --> 01:16:24.760
is I can no longer accept Lee
Oswald from what I see in the Warren

890
01:16:24.800 --> 01:16:29.840
Commission report. Summaries. Okay,
I can no longer accept Lee Oswald in

891
01:16:30.000 --> 01:16:33.520
terms of what I see in almost
everything written in the JFK research community.

892
01:16:34.119 --> 01:16:39.359
Obviously that kind of makes me an
outsider. But what that kind of forced

893
01:16:39.399 --> 01:16:43.279
me to do is the only way
to test this stuff for me was to

894
01:16:43.399 --> 01:16:46.600
go back and look at his real
history. Now, the fascinating thing is,

895
01:16:47.119 --> 01:16:51.640
his real history to a large extent, is documented quite well by the

896
01:16:51.680 --> 01:16:57.239
Warren Commission. It's just that they
didn't use it. You know, they

897
01:16:57.399 --> 01:17:01.359
documented it. They gathered the data
about his childhood, about his school life,

898
01:17:01.479 --> 01:17:06.239
about the test he took, about
you know, the fact just literal

899
01:17:06.359 --> 01:17:11.319
facts, just the facts. But
of course that's not what shows up in

900
01:17:11.399 --> 01:17:15.279
the Submarine report. So I'm going, okay, I've got to get back

901
01:17:15.600 --> 01:17:21.119
to the facts. You know,
let me let me get inside his school

902
01:17:21.239 --> 01:17:26.199
life, let me get inside you
know how he tested. For example,

903
01:17:26.680 --> 01:17:30.520
one of the things that jumped out, two things that really jump out when

904
01:17:30.560 --> 01:17:35.600
you get back to his real character
and personality is he was bright. There's

905
01:17:35.640 --> 01:17:41.479
no doubt about it. From from
his very first elementary school test all the

906
01:17:41.560 --> 01:17:45.399
way through his Marine Corps testing,
he was bright. He was He was

907
01:17:45.560 --> 01:17:49.640
not a plutz in any way,
shape or form. From an IQ standpoint,

908
01:17:49.720 --> 01:17:55.000
from an intelligent standpoint. When he
wanted to do something, he tested

909
01:17:55.039 --> 01:17:59.079
well. Right when he didn't want
to do something, he tested poorly.

910
01:17:59.319 --> 01:18:03.039
It's all situational and and I think
that's what every I mean, that's what

911
01:18:03.279 --> 01:18:06.159
you don't see in the war in
commission, that's what you don't see in

912
01:18:06.199 --> 01:18:13.760
the JFK community, is the degree
to which his behavior is situational. And

913
01:18:13.920 --> 01:18:16.920
that doesn't mean that you can't present
him as somewhat klutzy or clumsy in a

914
01:18:17.079 --> 01:18:19.840
physical sense, because I mean,
we are, after all, talking about

915
01:18:19.840 --> 01:18:25.199
a guy who accidentally shot himself in
the leg, you know, And that's

916
01:18:25.279 --> 01:18:29.199
that's historical record. While he was
in the Marine Corps. What was one

917
01:18:29.239 --> 01:18:32.239
of his uh you know, his
uh did they call it a court martial

918
01:18:32.279 --> 01:18:38.239
in the Marine Corps where he was
disciplined anyway, uh was was because he

919
01:18:38.319 --> 01:18:42.479
had an unauthorized firearm that he injured
himself with, which is true. So

920
01:18:42.680 --> 01:18:45.199
this is part of the picture too. Um, even though he may have

921
01:18:45.279 --> 01:18:48.279
been very intelligent, Yeah, yeah, he is physical. And it's kind

922
01:18:48.279 --> 01:18:53.960
of like there is no doubt that
Leon's well life guns. You know,

923
01:18:54.279 --> 01:18:58.800
there just is no argument from from
his high school friend where who says I

924
01:18:58.920 --> 01:19:02.279
talked with Lee and he's really interested
in maybe we could break into a pawn

925
01:19:02.359 --> 01:19:05.640
shop and steal a pistol because he
really wanted a pistol. Well, he

926
01:19:05.800 --> 01:19:11.239
got one in Japan and as you
say, dropped it neared himself when he

927
01:19:11.319 --> 01:19:14.680
got into Russia. What is he
doing Russia? He buys a shotgun and

928
01:19:14.800 --> 01:19:18.960
joins a hunting club, right,
you know, so that is that's very

929
01:19:19.000 --> 01:19:23.600
consistent. Now was he a good
shot? No? Was he clumsy?

930
01:19:23.760 --> 01:19:26.760
Yes? But I know a lot
of people who have guns who are both

931
01:19:26.840 --> 01:19:30.439
clumsy, and you know, you
don't want to go out hunting with them

932
01:19:30.680 --> 01:19:33.680
because when they unload their shotgun,
their libels screw up and you know,

933
01:19:34.800 --> 01:19:42.479
you get the ricochet pellets off the
ground. So those aren't they're separate things.

934
01:19:42.720 --> 01:19:45.920
Cluts seen us and ability is not, you know, wanting to do

935
01:19:46.119 --> 01:19:51.359
something. But so so yeah,
you've got to you've got to. You've

936
01:19:51.399 --> 01:19:55.640
got to look for the patterns.
I think the other thing that jumps right

937
01:19:55.680 --> 01:20:02.960
out, and it astounds me how
many people Lee Oswald from the very first

938
01:20:03.079 --> 01:20:09.159
moment that you start looking at his
actual life a character's personality. Lee Oswald

939
01:20:09.199 --> 01:20:13.920
does not take orders unless you know
he does not. He does not play

940
01:20:14.039 --> 01:20:20.800
well with others. The least effective
way of getting Lee to do what you

941
01:20:20.960 --> 01:20:25.319
want him to do is to give
him an order, and he will get

942
01:20:25.359 --> 01:20:30.600
his back up. And he blows
every job he ever has in the end

943
01:20:30.079 --> 01:20:35.560
because he gets bored with the job. He doesn't take orders. Well,

944
01:20:35.720 --> 01:20:41.359
he didn't make him. This doesn't
matter whether he's in high school or in

945
01:20:41.439 --> 01:20:44.560
the Marines or in Russia. I
mean, this is a guy in you

946
01:20:44.640 --> 01:20:46.880
and I have both talked about Titowitz. I mean, this is a guy

947
01:20:46.960 --> 01:20:51.399
who gets a great job inside Russia
in a factory, a relatively great job,

948
01:20:51.640 --> 01:20:56.960
good apartment, relative lots of money. And what happens. He's in

949
01:20:57.119 --> 01:21:02.000
Russia and he can't get along with
his co worker, right yeah, and

950
01:21:02.600 --> 01:21:09.640
he starts grewing up and making life
difficult for the managers who are in charge

951
01:21:09.680 --> 01:21:13.479
of him, and he starts criticizing
the system. Can you see this?

952
01:21:13.640 --> 01:21:18.319
Ex marine goes to Russia and starts
creating a problem in the Russian work factory

953
01:21:18.399 --> 01:21:23.600
workplace. You know how many people
do? We know that? Right about

954
01:21:23.680 --> 01:21:27.640
that? As part of Oswald's real
character, well, you know, they

955
01:21:27.720 --> 01:21:31.680
don't must be a really great spy. And it's very consistent makes himself outstanding,

956
01:21:32.119 --> 01:21:36.800
right, it's very difficult. It's
very consistent actually across his entire life

957
01:21:36.880 --> 01:21:43.880
story that he has a problem with
authority because he's either bucking his mother's authority

958
01:21:44.199 --> 01:21:47.000
whatever, judge her any which way
you want, but he bucks his mother's

959
01:21:47.000 --> 01:21:51.800
authority to some degree. He's causing
problems in the Marine Corps. He's got

960
01:21:51.880 --> 01:21:57.399
problems in school listening to authority.
This is not a guy who easily falls

961
01:21:57.520 --> 01:22:00.079
in line, and that is an
apparent path. Now we only have up

962
01:22:00.119 --> 01:22:03.880
until he's twenty four years of age
because that's when he died. But still

963
01:22:04.159 --> 01:22:11.279
you have a well established pattern here
of he doesn't just quietly accept the declarations

964
01:22:11.399 --> 01:22:14.439
of the authority, whether it's the
you know, the bosses in the factory,

965
01:22:15.119 --> 01:22:18.079
or it's whoever, even when he's
dealing with you know, the people

966
01:22:18.079 --> 01:22:23.720
at the consulate, right, I
mean, if you have Yeah, his

967
01:22:23.920 --> 01:22:27.840
biggest problem in life, as I
would cut that is a pattern that recurs

968
01:22:27.880 --> 01:22:32.760
over and over again is how quickly
he gets bored, which which actually speaks

969
01:22:32.800 --> 01:22:38.399
to his intelligence in the fact that
he has a hard time getting into jobs

970
01:22:38.479 --> 01:22:43.760
that he would consider really challenging.
But even when he gets a I mean

971
01:22:44.159 --> 01:22:47.479
in the marine corps, he tests
well. He gets into a technical skill

972
01:22:47.640 --> 01:22:53.720
level. I mean he gets into
radar and aircraft equipment. This is one

973
01:22:53.800 --> 01:22:58.640
of the best and most technical.
And he's in marine air he's not in

974
01:22:58.760 --> 01:23:04.119
marine infantry. So he has a
relatively plush job and he's happy with it.

975
01:23:04.680 --> 01:23:10.760
His performance reports come in good.
His supervisor says that he's a good

976
01:23:11.199 --> 01:23:15.760
calm radar calm under pressure, good
radar operator. And then he gets bored

977
01:23:15.800 --> 01:23:20.079
with the job and starts growing up. And his in Texas, he gets

978
01:23:20.840 --> 01:23:27.439
really kind of a plum job and
with a graphics company, really enjoys that

979
01:23:27.960 --> 01:23:32.960
and then gets bored with it.
It's over and over. He creates problems

980
01:23:33.039 --> 01:23:39.520
for himself by getting bored with things, including bored with Marina. You know,

981
01:23:40.640 --> 01:23:45.600
for leonslove. Everything is enthusiastic for
you know, like ninety days,

982
01:23:45.640 --> 01:23:51.039
and then it's not. He cannot
maintain his enthusiasm and he goes off on

983
01:23:51.199 --> 01:23:57.159
tangents and at all you know,
what was good yesterday collapses. I was

984
01:23:57.600 --> 01:24:01.399
intrigued. I had forgotten he had
a a reasonably good job. Early job

985
01:24:01.520 --> 01:24:05.960
in Texas in a in a metalworking
plant. Not a great job, but

986
01:24:06.319 --> 01:24:10.920
you know, he had done metal
work in Russia and he had a steady

987
01:24:11.039 --> 01:24:15.960
job, steady income, and one
one day comes home and tells Marina,

988
01:24:15.039 --> 01:24:19.199
well, they fired me. Well, no they didn't. And when they

989
01:24:19.239 --> 01:24:24.279
were interviewed by the warrant commissioner,
it's like, oh, he was okay.

990
01:24:24.319 --> 01:24:28.199
It was kind of a you know, might be a difficult to talk

991
01:24:28.239 --> 01:24:31.279
to, but he did the job
well and and we were Actually he was

992
01:24:31.319 --> 01:24:35.520
getting good performance reviews up until the
time he didn't show up for work anymore.

993
01:24:36.399 --> 01:24:43.439
So you know, there are there
are personality characteristics, and these that

994
01:24:43.520 --> 01:24:46.439
are constant over time, even as
you said, even for just twenty four

995
01:24:46.560 --> 01:24:50.680
years, and those have to be
brought into play. And quite frankly,

996
01:24:50.800 --> 01:24:57.399
that was that was not at all
part of the summary reports that the Warrant

997
01:24:57.399 --> 01:25:00.680
Commission does, and it's missing for
most of the conspiracy writing. Well,

998
01:25:00.800 --> 01:25:03.560
right, And the other part of
the context here is that it's not just

999
01:25:03.800 --> 01:25:08.560
about Okay, yes, it's clearly
an intelligent person that gets bored with the

1000
01:25:08.680 --> 01:25:15.119
mundane or the less intricate, challenging
jobs or scorework or whatever. True,

1001
01:25:15.479 --> 01:25:18.319
but it also doesn't mean that he's
the super genius that some people have tried

1002
01:25:18.359 --> 01:25:23.800
to make him into either, right, because the super genius might have found

1003
01:25:23.840 --> 01:25:27.439
a way to cope with this and
been a bit more pragmatic and not created

1004
01:25:27.479 --> 01:25:31.640
these other ancillary problems that come along
with the tangential issues that now come along

1005
01:25:31.680 --> 01:25:35.239
with you didn't hold the job,
etc. Right, So, on the

1006
01:25:35.319 --> 01:25:41.760
one hand, you have somebody who's
probably more than average intelligence, but he's

1007
01:25:41.840 --> 01:25:45.000
also not the super spy that some
people make him into either. I mean

1008
01:25:45.239 --> 01:25:47.880
they practically make him into a James
Bond like figure in some cases. And

1009
01:25:47.920 --> 01:25:50.880
I'm like, well, we'll hold
on. Maybe he was capable of some

1010
01:25:51.039 --> 01:25:56.840
of that, but good. Yeah, the thing is that we have factual

1011
01:25:56.960 --> 01:26:00.239
information on that. There's no reason
to speculate because well, when he got

1012
01:26:00.319 --> 01:26:03.640
back, well, even in the
Marines, I mean he took test all

1013
01:26:03.680 --> 01:26:10.479
the time. He took intelligence tests
in school, he took you know testing

1014
01:26:10.560 --> 01:26:14.520
the Marines. When he came back, he kept going to you know,

1015
01:26:15.079 --> 01:26:19.399
apply for jobs, and he would
take screening tests with job placement in Texas.

1016
01:26:19.880 --> 01:26:27.039
And interestingly enough, if you look
at his records, basically it's it's

1017
01:26:27.520 --> 01:26:30.880
obviously he was well read. I
mean, that's one thing you can establish.

1018
01:26:30.960 --> 01:26:33.000
He's well read. When he wants
to, he can hold a very

1019
01:26:33.039 --> 01:26:41.239
good conversation. Even his officers and
the Marines would admit that a he was,

1020
01:26:41.800 --> 01:26:47.239
you know, difficult and challenging and
annoying, but he could hold a

1021
01:26:47.319 --> 01:26:54.479
conversation on say politics or international affairs
on the level of the officers themselves.

1022
01:26:54.600 --> 01:26:57.560
And one of the reasons he was
a pain in the rear is he would

1023
01:26:57.600 --> 01:27:01.079
try to make himself look equal to
or superior to an officer, which you

1024
01:27:01.159 --> 01:27:05.560
know that doesn't go down well.
But even in these reviews they admit that.

1025
01:27:05.680 --> 01:27:12.600
And then in the job placements,
in several instances they really write it

1026
01:27:12.720 --> 01:27:16.279
up as saying, he could we
could try to place him in a higher

1027
01:27:16.359 --> 01:27:23.039
level job, but he's unemployed,
he's got a wife, she's pregnant or

1028
01:27:23.159 --> 01:27:26.239
has a child. He needs money, so we're going to have to put

1029
01:27:26.319 --> 01:27:30.239
him in a lower level job right
now because he needs money. But so

1030
01:27:30.640 --> 01:27:34.479
this is fact, this is not
supposition. These are people who tested him,

1031
01:27:34.600 --> 01:27:40.520
interviewed him. So no, he's
not the way you would place him

1032
01:27:40.560 --> 01:27:45.800
in terms of intelligence and potential in
the job market. Is they actually say

1033
01:27:45.000 --> 01:27:53.720
at you know, college entry or
college you know, undergraduate level. But

1034
01:27:55.119 --> 01:27:59.880
the problem is that's where he might
be, you know, at knowledge why,

1035
01:28:00.640 --> 01:28:02.560
but he doesn't have any skills to
go along with it, you know,

1036
01:28:02.640 --> 01:28:10.039
he never developed that. So that
also puts in a very difficult position.

1037
01:28:10.159 --> 01:28:14.840
And I think that's one of the
things we often looking at those kind

1038
01:28:14.880 --> 01:28:19.199
of records, which are kind of
dull and boring and whatever. You know,

1039
01:28:19.479 --> 01:28:23.880
that's not what we see in a
lot of conspiracy writing. We don't

1040
01:28:23.920 --> 01:28:29.640
see in conspiracy writing that Leoswell got
a job the school book depository and was

1041
01:28:29.760 --> 01:28:34.359
already bored and looking for other jobs, right and it applied for other jobs

1042
01:28:34.399 --> 01:28:43.439
already. That doesn't fit well with
the general Leoswell is part of a conspiracy

1043
01:28:43.520 --> 01:28:46.319
that has to have him in school
book depository right well. And it also

1044
01:28:46.399 --> 01:28:51.600
doesn't help that he's dysfunctional to certain
degree, because look, either he is

1045
01:28:51.760 --> 01:28:57.279
a well organized and you know somebody
who pulled this off, okay and can

1046
01:28:57.399 --> 01:29:02.399
functionally get things done, or or
he's not right so he seems to have

1047
01:29:02.520 --> 01:29:11.439
functional problems sort of getting things done, but he's intelligent enough to understand complex

1048
01:29:11.560 --> 01:29:15.840
things that might require you know,
again some level of intelligence a bit above

1049
01:29:15.920 --> 01:29:21.079
average, So you have those two
things to balance. Where again, unless

1050
01:29:21.119 --> 01:29:27.159
it's very exciting and intriguing to him, you're not going to keep him engaged

1051
01:29:27.239 --> 01:29:30.239
well enough to have him functionally accomplish
things. And even then it's almost like

1052
01:29:30.279 --> 01:29:33.279
a time limit because okay, let's
put him in here. We can train

1053
01:29:33.359 --> 01:29:39.760
him for something. The JCS,
the Jackson Child snowball incident is very interesting

1054
01:29:39.840 --> 01:29:44.560
there, right, because there was
plenty of room for him to maybe get

1055
01:29:44.600 --> 01:29:47.680
into other areas might have been more
challenging with that job. But he didn't

1056
01:29:47.680 --> 01:29:54.159
say right, so there you go, right, I mean, all right,

1057
01:29:54.319 --> 01:30:00.880
so go ahead. He doesn't.
He doesn't can't focus for long enough

1058
01:30:01.720 --> 01:30:05.880
to really become skilled as I mean, he dabbles. Oswald is a dabbler.

1059
01:30:06.159 --> 01:30:11.800
Oswald is as is kind of a
short attention span, you know,

1060
01:30:12.039 --> 01:30:15.560
not in terms of minutes, but
in terms of weeks or months, and

1061
01:30:16.159 --> 01:30:19.720
and to some extent, you you
know, you almost kind of expect this.

1062
01:30:19.960 --> 01:30:26.359
This is a kid who up until
his like sophomore year in high school,

1063
01:30:26.840 --> 01:30:31.439
he was averaging two or three schools
a year and moving back and forth.

1064
01:30:31.520 --> 01:30:35.840
That's with that kind of background,
that doesn't you know, you don't

1065
01:30:36.399 --> 01:30:42.199
he didn't do anything for very long. He didn't develop any you know,

1066
01:30:43.319 --> 01:30:46.119
the ability to slog you know,
just apply himself, because it would have

1067
01:30:46.199 --> 01:30:49.720
made no sense. He's somewhere else, you know, he's moved on.

1068
01:30:50.159 --> 01:30:56.680
There is no there's no history but
h and it's interesting too. It's interesting

1069
01:30:56.720 --> 01:30:59.079
too. You bring up the Marina
thing because and this will be the last

1070
01:30:59.199 --> 01:31:00.800
like big comment making. I want
to let you run with it after this,

1071
01:31:01.319 --> 01:31:04.920
because I think this is necessary to
recognize as well. They try not

1072
01:31:05.079 --> 01:31:10.640
only to point out his levels of
intellect and sort of ride it and steer

1073
01:31:10.680 --> 01:31:14.640
it into one column or the other
inaccurately. And I do mean from all

1074
01:31:14.720 --> 01:31:18.119
sides of people trying to draw out
this character, but emotionally they do it

1075
01:31:18.199 --> 01:31:21.880
too, where there's this you know, look, he's a dedicated Marxist,

1076
01:31:23.039 --> 01:31:29.119
right, he is so entirely invested
in that that he's like fanatical and that's

1077
01:31:29.159 --> 01:31:30.880
the thing that drove him. And
you know, okay, well you go

1078
01:31:31.039 --> 01:31:36.199
with that, and that doesn't quite
fit with the portrait I'm seeing Emotionally again,

1079
01:31:36.399 --> 01:31:40.039
he got bored. You know.
The wife was probably exciting because she's

1080
01:31:40.079 --> 01:31:43.640
an oddity. She's from Russia,
she's from that place. She's different,

1081
01:31:43.880 --> 01:31:47.840
right, so she's an oddity and
then he gets bored with her. Everything,

1082
01:31:48.079 --> 01:31:53.359
it seems like, goes this way
right where you know, again,

1083
01:31:53.479 --> 01:31:57.319
the emotional makeup of the man is
adapted. For people that want to make

1084
01:31:57.399 --> 01:32:02.439
him the assassin. He has to
be really, really inconsistent and really intense.

1085
01:32:03.239 --> 01:32:05.640
And on the other hand, if
you want to make him mister Innocent,

1086
01:32:06.079 --> 01:32:11.119
he has to be very steady and
very you know, like, oh,

1087
01:32:11.279 --> 01:32:14.159
I'm just not really looking for trouble, but you know, I have

1088
01:32:14.359 --> 01:32:18.439
different ideas about the world. You
can't really fit him anither one of those

1089
01:32:18.520 --> 01:32:24.279
boxes, despite the fact that people
place him there. And I think a

1090
01:32:24.840 --> 01:32:28.399
good example of this show, and
I've tooth talked about this, I had

1091
01:32:28.479 --> 01:32:33.199
encourage everybody to read Titovits book on
Oswal in Russia absolutely to get a real

1092
01:32:33.279 --> 01:32:36.159
feeling for this. I think one
of the things that was most striking to

1093
01:32:36.279 --> 01:32:45.000
me is, you know, right
Oswald was Oswald became socially outgoing and successful

1094
01:32:45.079 --> 01:32:48.399
with women in Japan. Okay,
he had not been before then, but

1095
01:32:48.640 --> 01:32:54.119
that's an absolute fact that things changed
for him that way in Japan, right,

1096
01:32:54.239 --> 01:32:57.960
But that was still a new thing
for him and Russia Titovts writes about

1097
01:32:58.039 --> 01:33:02.159
how you know Oswal really he had
a number of sexual conquests. They dated.

1098
01:33:02.279 --> 01:33:06.319
It was easy for him to date
because of his apartment. The girls

1099
01:33:06.439 --> 01:33:12.000
school was handy. But after a
certain period of time he even gets bored

1100
01:33:12.039 --> 01:33:15.720
with that, like Antenebis is going
and now we're not going over to the

1101
01:33:15.800 --> 01:33:19.000
girls school anymore. You know,
also just spending a lot of time at

1102
01:33:19.039 --> 01:33:24.479
home by himself, and he's starting
to get depressed, and you start going,

1103
01:33:24.680 --> 01:33:28.359
wait a minute, what does this
guy want? This dedicated to votist

1104
01:33:28.600 --> 01:33:31.960
Marxist who's also a spy, right, I mean, he's got a charter,

1105
01:33:32.520 --> 01:33:39.359
he's in Russia, and you know, is he trying to ingratiate himself

1106
01:33:39.439 --> 01:33:44.840
within the factory complex, become a
great worker, get transferred to the the

1107
01:33:45.279 --> 01:33:48.479
you know, the area where they're
actually making military radio systems. Does he

1108
01:33:48.920 --> 01:33:55.079
start trying to make No, he
gets bored of even of the women at

1109
01:33:55.119 --> 01:33:59.840
the girls school, and just you
know, he gets bored. And then

1110
01:34:00.399 --> 01:34:03.880
that's not that's the real Oswald,
And so you've got to really get your

1111
01:34:03.920 --> 01:34:10.239
head around the real personality and the
character if we're going to deal with him,

1112
01:34:11.159 --> 01:34:15.079
you know, in the fall of
nineteen sixty three in Dallas. And

1113
01:34:15.840 --> 01:34:21.359
your comment about Marina is people ignore
what Marina has to say about Oswald,

1114
01:34:21.640 --> 01:34:30.520
which is which is really mixed.
You know, she's very Marina is very

1115
01:34:30.880 --> 01:34:35.760
on the money when she talks about
Lee Oswald and his good side and his

1116
01:34:35.920 --> 01:34:41.960
bad side. And yes he would
he would be set you pay that they

1117
01:34:42.000 --> 01:34:45.600
didn't live together all that much.
I mean, once they got back in

1118
01:34:45.720 --> 01:34:50.359
the States, they were constantly apart. She was living with friends. It's

1119
01:34:50.439 --> 01:34:56.600
really only for like three months in
early nineteen sixty three where they're living together

1120
01:34:56.680 --> 01:35:01.960
where he's working at Jagger Stoval,
and then he leaves that in New Orleans.

1121
01:35:02.079 --> 01:35:05.119
They're living together for a couple of
months. You know, this is

1122
01:35:05.239 --> 01:35:11.279
not a couple that is in syne. Necessarily, her interests are not his

1123
01:35:11.439 --> 01:35:19.119
interest It's pretty clear that Marina was
a typical Russian woman of her period,

1124
01:35:19.439 --> 01:35:27.960
educated but but not politically interested.
Certainly not not politically. Oswald is more

1125
01:35:28.000 --> 01:35:31.960
interested in geopolitics, and then certainly
he can't talk to Marina about that.

1126
01:35:33.039 --> 01:35:40.159
Oswald is You and I have also
discussed what Oswald is writing. Oswald takes

1127
01:35:40.199 --> 01:35:46.439
a typing course and is really big
into writing. Various critiques in nineteen sixty

1128
01:35:46.479 --> 01:35:50.960
three. People have got to read
those to understand the real aswell. Marina's

1129
01:35:51.239 --> 01:35:56.840
He's not talking to Marina about that. She you know, they're Marina's work,

1130
01:35:57.000 --> 01:35:59.880
dealing with the kids. She's trying
to learn to cook, you know,

1131
01:36:00.680 --> 01:36:04.439
an American range. So when people
take her to task, because she

1132
01:36:04.600 --> 01:36:11.560
may not she doesn't answer everybody's questions. She doesn't answer them accurately. She

1133
01:36:12.159 --> 01:36:15.680
seems to wonder, and so on
and so forth. You know, you

1134
01:36:15.800 --> 01:36:19.279
got to look at the relationship between
those two. They got into fights,

1135
01:36:19.399 --> 01:36:24.680
they made up. She wanted him
to make money, and she had married

1136
01:36:24.760 --> 01:36:28.239
him because he looked like he would
be a good American prospect. And it's

1137
01:36:28.319 --> 01:36:30.439
not turning out that way. And
even if they very last, it kind

1138
01:36:30.479 --> 01:36:34.359
of like, Welle, you need
to step up, you know, Okay,

1139
01:36:34.399 --> 01:36:38.520
I'll come back and live with you
if you show you can make something

1140
01:36:38.600 --> 01:36:43.960
of yourself. And Oswald's on and
off about that. You know, he

1141
01:36:44.119 --> 01:36:47.079
will be good with that for thirty
days or sixty days, and then he's

1142
01:36:47.119 --> 01:36:51.760
off to something else, right,
and then me look in complete sympathetic fairness

1143
01:36:51.800 --> 01:36:56.560
to her. She's confronted with a
culture shock. I mean, you know,

1144
01:36:56.680 --> 01:37:00.119
what is expected of her as a
Russian woman is very different when she's

1145
01:37:00.159 --> 01:37:06.000
in America. You know, she's
got different expectations, a language barrier,

1146
01:37:06.399 --> 01:37:10.680
a lot of things going on there, you know. And then meanwhile,

1147
01:37:10.880 --> 01:37:17.399
the inconsistency of their living situation means
she's not necessarily familiar with everything, although

1148
01:37:17.520 --> 01:37:20.399
she does have a good feel for
him because she does know him better than

1149
01:37:20.399 --> 01:37:25.000
a whole lot of other people who
are very transient in his life. Right,

1150
01:37:25.560 --> 01:37:28.479
So, you know, it's a
mixed bag. You're not going to

1151
01:37:28.560 --> 01:37:30.880
get a consistent Well, she knows
him so well, oh so well.

1152
01:37:31.359 --> 01:37:33.880
But at the same time, she
does know who he was, you know.

1153
01:37:35.720 --> 01:37:40.359
So it almost sounds like I'm contradicting, but I'm not. It's a

1154
01:37:40.439 --> 01:37:45.119
mixed situation here. It's not all
you know again, like you said,

1155
01:37:45.199 --> 01:37:49.279
the complexities of his political and social
views, she might have known them generally,

1156
01:37:50.039 --> 01:37:53.920
but did she really know the nuances
of them. Could she have known

1157
01:37:54.000 --> 01:37:58.800
them if he's expressing them in English
anyway, versus whatever knowledge he had of

1158
01:37:58.800 --> 01:38:03.079
the Russian language, right, could
you have even communicated that to her?

1159
01:38:03.119 --> 01:38:08.680
As there's another factor there, they're
too check. I mean, Oswald lied

1160
01:38:08.760 --> 01:38:13.399
to her, and we've got to
worth right about that Oswal At one the

1161
01:38:13.479 --> 01:38:18.119
other patterns that Oswald had, it
just constantly. It's not that he's pathological,

1162
01:38:18.359 --> 01:38:26.119
but when an Oswald gets stressed or
when he gets backed into a corner,

1163
01:38:26.239 --> 01:38:30.119
he lies. And he didn't live
very well because you know, if

1164
01:38:30.279 --> 01:38:32.800
you look at it over time,
even when he gets back to the United

1165
01:38:32.840 --> 01:38:38.560
States and he's interviewed by the FBI, which you know you probably should want

1166
01:38:38.560 --> 01:38:41.600
to get your story straight, he
does, well, I didn't offered a

1167
01:38:41.720 --> 01:38:44.720
fact I didn't do this and that
when I was in Russia, and they

1168
01:38:44.760 --> 01:38:47.720
immediately checked with the State Department,
and yes he did say that, and

1169
01:38:47.840 --> 01:38:51.680
yes he said he never wanted to
return to the US again. So Oswald

1170
01:38:53.079 --> 01:38:57.239
is under stress, he lies,
and he doesn't do it very well,

1171
01:38:57.640 --> 01:39:03.000
not certainly, not like a trained
agent should. But he also he you

1172
01:39:03.079 --> 01:39:08.560
know, when you look at his
job applications, he embalances these things he

1173
01:39:08.720 --> 01:39:11.960
puts in, you know, things
that are not right. So the whole

1174
01:39:12.039 --> 01:39:17.680
pattern is when you're looking at what
Marina says, you are hearing what she's

1175
01:39:17.720 --> 01:39:24.079
heard from Lee, and that might
not be correct, you know, so

1176
01:39:24.359 --> 01:39:28.239
people falter for well, we know
this and like, we may not know

1177
01:39:28.439 --> 01:39:32.119
that, and we may know that
now, but you have no idea what

1178
01:39:32.319 --> 01:39:38.880
marine knew at the time, right, right, And it's really interesting that

1179
01:39:38.960 --> 01:39:41.800
a guy in his position, if
people want to support the idea that he

1180
01:39:41.880 --> 01:39:45.880
was some sort of master spy,
very important to note that he would have

1181
01:39:45.279 --> 01:39:50.079
actually shut his mouth a lot more
as opposed to talking, as opposed to

1182
01:39:50.239 --> 01:39:55.560
making a point of getting involved in
certain conversations. Right, Like, you

1183
01:39:55.680 --> 01:40:00.359
literally see that all the way going
back to Japan, where he's entered rejecting

1184
01:40:00.439 --> 01:40:04.159
himself in situations where if you're a
spy, you don't hand them a bunch

1185
01:40:04.199 --> 01:40:09.880
of things that could be contradictory or
embellishments or whatever. You don't offer that

1186
01:40:10.119 --> 01:40:15.199
because you just you don't. It's
not part of the equation, right.

1187
01:40:15.760 --> 01:40:18.439
This is not the way somebody who's
trying to, you know, only have

1188
01:40:18.520 --> 01:40:23.880
attention paid to them in certain circumstances
behaves. And then when he's dealing with

1189
01:40:24.000 --> 01:40:27.159
her, he might also be thinking, well, she doesn't know anything,

1190
01:40:27.560 --> 01:40:30.560
she can't even speak the language.
It's not like she could go and check

1191
01:40:30.680 --> 01:40:33.239
things on me. Maybe he slides
her a little more sloppy because he doesn't

1192
01:40:33.239 --> 01:40:36.800
feel as though he needs to tighten
them up with her, you know.

1193
01:40:36.920 --> 01:40:41.479
And that's the thing. All of
these things are worthy of consideration when looking

1194
01:40:41.560 --> 01:40:47.159
at this character. Right, And
I think here's an example, and I

1195
01:40:47.520 --> 01:40:53.199
know people like it, but I'll
be writing about it to some extand it

1196
01:40:53.560 --> 01:40:59.520
I think the perfect picture of their
relationship. And it's a real world relationship.

1197
01:40:59.680 --> 01:41:01.840
It's it's a pro con like a
lot of marriages, a lot of

1198
01:41:01.920 --> 01:41:06.560
couples. At times it's good and
at times it's not good. But the

1199
01:41:08.119 --> 01:41:13.239
photo, the backyard photo that's left
for the Warren shield, right, which

1200
01:41:13.439 --> 01:41:16.199
the copy on the front is signed
by Lee. Okay, and it's kind

1201
01:41:16.199 --> 01:41:18.680
of like, okay, this is
from my buddy. And on the bat

1202
01:41:18.800 --> 01:41:24.359
Marina writes Hunter of Fascist. Now
that strikes me as a real couple,

1203
01:41:24.680 --> 01:41:27.600
you know, it's kind of like
this is what the wife would have said

1204
01:41:28.159 --> 01:41:31.399
to your buddy's wife, kind of
punching you into in the back for you

1205
01:41:31.479 --> 01:41:36.560
know, like bragging or you know, that's the guys say their thing.

1206
01:41:36.680 --> 01:41:43.159
And in the background the women are
going yeah, right, right, yeah,

1207
01:41:43.199 --> 01:41:45.199
I mean, look, you can
see that in the real world example

1208
01:41:45.279 --> 01:41:47.560
where somebody's you know, talking up
about some situation they were in, and

1209
01:41:47.760 --> 01:41:50.680
quite often a wife will come in
and undercut it, you know. Oh

1210
01:41:50.800 --> 01:41:54.000
yeah, well I stood up and
I said something, and I was a

1211
01:41:54.079 --> 01:41:56.000
big tough guy, and this and
that, and then the wife kind of

1212
01:41:56.039 --> 01:41:59.039
walks in the room and sort of
goes, yeah, well that's that's funny.

1213
01:41:59.079 --> 01:42:00.760
How how are you able toot ducking
under the counter there? Because that's

1214
01:42:00.760 --> 01:42:04.199
the way I remember it happening,
you know, and I've seen that happen.

1215
01:42:04.479 --> 01:42:08.479
It just seems so real. It's
like you just can't avoid it.

1216
01:42:08.600 --> 01:42:13.800
That that's got to be it's gotta
be a real stuff. And and Marina,

1217
01:42:13.920 --> 01:42:15.920
I think what we're talking about her. One of the parts of the

1218
01:42:16.000 --> 01:42:24.199
equation is people liked her. People
did not generally likely unless there are a

1219
01:42:24.319 --> 01:42:30.439
handful of people. If you sort
of agreed with Lee's worldview, you could

1220
01:42:30.479 --> 01:42:33.640
be become a friend of his,
like Tedovits did. I mean, you

1221
01:42:33.720 --> 01:42:36.960
didn't have to agree it with him, but if you agreed to some extent,

1222
01:42:38.439 --> 01:42:41.760
you could actually get bond with him
to the extent that you could argue

1223
01:42:41.920 --> 01:42:45.520
or have fights or disagree, and
you know, he does not push you

1224
01:42:45.560 --> 01:42:50.920
away. That didn't happen very often. Tedovitz is one Delgado is another in

1225
01:42:50.960 --> 01:42:58.520
the Marines. Uh de Mornshield clearly
is one and where Lee would would have

1226
01:42:58.720 --> 01:43:05.359
exchanges with him, and the Morenshield
gets ignored because we put everybody in a

1227
01:43:05.399 --> 01:43:10.319
box. Right. The Morenshield,
you know, reported on Oswald through a

1228
01:43:10.359 --> 01:43:13.960
government agency. Yeah, the Morenshield
reported on a lot of things to government

1229
01:43:14.000 --> 01:43:17.720
agencies. That doesn't mean that when
he talks about Lee as his friend,

1230
01:43:18.159 --> 01:43:24.159
he's not a viable resource if especially
if it's consistent and it checks out.

1231
01:43:26.199 --> 01:43:29.239
And I think that it's one of
the thing, one of the traps that

1232
01:43:29.359 --> 01:43:32.359
we build for ourselves is you know, I don't what do you want to

1233
01:43:32.399 --> 01:43:36.000
call it, throw the baby out
with the bath or whatever is you know

1234
01:43:36.239 --> 01:43:42.479
that we've gotten to the point where
people won't cite something out of a book

1235
01:43:43.119 --> 01:43:47.600
or from a source because they don't
like it. Right, this source is

1236
01:43:47.680 --> 01:43:51.880
wrong about this, So I don't
accept anything they have to say, Oh,

1237
01:43:53.439 --> 01:43:57.199
this source did this. You know
it's this source took a position on

1238
01:43:57.319 --> 01:44:00.640
that that I don't agree with.
So nothing in their book is viable.

1239
01:44:00.039 --> 01:44:04.600
Um right, I think that's silly
and I feel the same way, which

1240
01:44:04.720 --> 01:44:13.159
is which is why I've turned to
sources like Jack's Wick who investigated Oswald in

1241
01:44:13.199 --> 01:44:16.720
the Marines, or to Tito Bits
or to de Mournshield for that matter,

1242
01:44:17.199 --> 01:44:20.479
Uh, to kind of say,
what are they saying that I can learn

1243
01:44:20.600 --> 01:44:27.479
something from and not just not just
throw it away because it doesn't match what

1244
01:44:27.680 --> 01:44:30.039
I want Oswald to be. You
know, that's that's not my choice.

1245
01:44:30.359 --> 01:44:33.560
Well is what he is, what
he was? And why should I turn

1246
01:44:33.640 --> 01:44:38.079
away from somebody who actually knew him
and go, oh, well, I'm

1247
01:44:38.119 --> 01:44:44.520
going to believe what I read in
this book versus the person who really knew

1248
01:44:44.600 --> 01:44:49.399
him for three months and helped his
family and and provably well up or anything

1249
01:44:49.520 --> 01:44:54.800
like that. Yeah, here's the
thing right where, which is very interesting.

1250
01:44:54.920 --> 01:44:57.840
Yeah, he's a sketchy character.
Yes, he's somebody that you better

1251
01:44:57.960 --> 01:45:00.920
you know, get some breeds of
salt ready for on a lot of topics.

1252
01:45:00.000 --> 01:45:05.520
But when he describes the idea that
like, look, Marina, people

1253
01:45:05.600 --> 01:45:09.119
wanted to help Marina. They wanted
to fix their teeth and all that.

1254
01:45:09.239 --> 01:45:14.159
Remember that that whole bit where the
other Russians in town there, they just

1255
01:45:14.319 --> 01:45:17.960
you know, wanted to help their
fellow Russian and they liked her, right,

1256
01:45:18.039 --> 01:45:21.680
they wanted to help her. But
he was a big turn off for

1257
01:45:21.720 --> 01:45:25.840
a lot of people just personally.
It didn't matter about you know, well,

1258
01:45:26.119 --> 01:45:28.920
oh well de Moorn Shields was attached
to him because of intelligence. That

1259
01:45:29.000 --> 01:45:32.800
maybe maybe so, But when you're
talking about this kind of situation where he

1260
01:45:32.960 --> 01:45:38.439
describes that dynamic, there's no reason
too, I mean, there's no reason

1261
01:45:38.520 --> 01:45:42.239
to say that de Moorn Shields is
not reliable when when relating that sort of

1262
01:45:43.319 --> 01:45:46.279
concept. Yeah, I mean,
you could hate the Moor Shields all you

1263
01:45:46.319 --> 01:45:49.760
want, but yeah, go ahead, that den Moren Shields points out.

1264
01:45:49.800 --> 01:45:53.920
It's sort of like, look and
again, this is so real life,

1265
01:45:54.000 --> 01:45:58.079
it's difficult to reject. He said. Look, everybody liked Marina. Marina

1266
01:45:58.239 --> 01:46:02.840
was easy to get along with.
Um Lee was unless unless you absolutely agreed

1267
01:46:03.119 --> 01:46:06.960
with his worldview. It was an
asshole. Okay, you would argue with

1268
01:46:08.119 --> 01:46:13.159
you, he would whatever. Which
obviously the Russian next Patriots are not going

1269
01:46:13.279 --> 01:46:15.880
to be very much in sync with
Lee Oswald, you know, that's why

1270
01:46:15.920 --> 01:46:19.760
they're in the first place. But
everybody like Marina. But there got to

1271
01:46:19.840 --> 01:46:25.600
be a point when she decided to
go back and live with Oswald after having

1272
01:46:26.159 --> 01:46:30.520
been separated from him several times,
left him whatever, where they just kind

1273
01:46:30.560 --> 01:46:33.079
of threw up their hands and said, oh, it's just not worth it.

1274
01:46:33.399 --> 01:46:39.439
Yeah, she's nice, but if
we try to maintain contact, then

1275
01:46:39.600 --> 01:46:42.000
we have to deal with him,
and we're not going to do it.

1276
01:46:42.279 --> 01:46:45.399
Yeah, you know that he's the
way it is too. That's that's too

1277
01:46:45.560 --> 01:46:49.520
real world to ignore. Nobody's making
that up. Well, it's a very

1278
01:46:49.600 --> 01:46:53.640
real world. Look, you and
I have lived long enough that we have

1279
01:46:53.840 --> 01:46:57.279
encountered somebody that we might really appreciate, right, and they might be a

1280
01:46:57.399 --> 01:47:01.279
good person to have around and were
forming a ship or a working relationship with

1281
01:47:01.479 --> 01:47:09.880
them, but somehow their spouse or
their child is somehow injected into the situation.

1282
01:47:10.560 --> 01:47:15.720
And since that person comes along with
this other person, you go all

1283
01:47:15.800 --> 01:47:19.600
right, look I really like them, but I can't deal with you know,

1284
01:47:20.279 --> 01:47:27.159
for whatever reason, right, the
person's just plain obnoxious or is counterproductive

1285
01:47:27.399 --> 01:47:31.439
or hinders that person directly while they're
working in a group. You and I

1286
01:47:31.560 --> 01:47:35.159
both encountered this. It's not them, but their spouse makes it unlivable.

1287
01:47:36.399 --> 01:47:41.399
And it sounds to me like that's
one of these situations where you could be

1288
01:47:41.520 --> 01:47:43.720
like, look, Marina is just
fine. We'd love to help her.

1289
01:47:43.800 --> 01:47:45.479
We like her. She's a good
person. But since this guy is going

1290
01:47:45.520 --> 01:47:49.319
to be attached to her, maybe
I don't want to be around so much.

1291
01:47:49.439 --> 01:47:54.239
I mean, and that just sounds
like a normal sort of you know,

1292
01:47:54.800 --> 01:48:00.640
non fabricated, just happenstance that you
tend to believe it because it's it

1293
01:48:00.760 --> 01:48:05.960
just makes sense, you know,
sometime again, or if you want to

1294
01:48:05.960 --> 01:48:11.840
put him in the box the other
way, the Warrant Commission takes examples that

1295
01:48:12.079 --> 01:48:17.119
make him violently antisocial, not just
a social but antisocial. Right. On

1296
01:48:17.239 --> 01:48:20.760
the other hand, it's funny,
it's like, wait a minute, I

1297
01:48:20.920 --> 01:48:26.399
just read in the summer report this
is guy's anti social, right, But

1298
01:48:26.600 --> 01:48:30.680
over here in the appendix there are
ten pictures that show him in Russia,

1299
01:48:31.479 --> 01:48:36.079
you know, like out on picnics, arm around girls, arm around guys,

1300
01:48:36.319 --> 01:48:43.720
arm around girland. Guy dating.
Um proposed Okay, uh proposed not

1301
01:48:43.840 --> 01:48:48.159
except for proposed again excepted. This
is antisocial. He's got two children.

1302
01:48:48.479 --> 01:48:55.119
You know how antisocial? Can you? You know it just everybody that tries

1303
01:48:55.159 --> 01:48:58.439
to put him in a box,
there's a problem, right, he's dating,

1304
01:48:58.520 --> 01:49:00.760
he's going to dances. This is
not an antisocial person who's just like

1305
01:49:00.880 --> 01:49:02.960
lead me alone. I just want
to stay in my house. No,

1306
01:49:03.359 --> 01:49:08.079
this is somebody who's interacting. And
it's not just now. Some people are

1307
01:49:08.079 --> 01:49:13.399
antisocial except when it comes to dating, right, But that's not consistent here.

1308
01:49:13.520 --> 01:49:17.520
He's inconsistent all the way around,
enough to tell you that one thing

1309
01:49:17.560 --> 01:49:23.600
I wouldn't call him actually is anti
social. He may be difficult in social

1310
01:49:23.720 --> 01:49:27.800
situations, right, I mean,
just the evidence the way it's being presented

1311
01:49:27.840 --> 01:49:30.159
to me, even when you go
back to the girls that talked about him

1312
01:49:30.199 --> 01:49:34.239
in middle school. Right, again, the trajectory of his full life appears

1313
01:49:35.079 --> 01:49:39.760
to come out a little clearer if
you just start to accept Look, the

1314
01:49:39.840 --> 01:49:44.119
guy's a little difficult. He makes
problems. He likes to be argumentative,

1315
01:49:45.319 --> 01:49:47.800
you know, and that apparently is
something that he had even as a child.

1316
01:49:48.319 --> 01:49:51.279
And he continued on, Yes,
he's willing to date. Yes he's

1317
01:49:51.319 --> 01:49:57.159
willing to interact, but only when
it really suits him. And if he

1318
01:49:57.760 --> 01:50:01.479
does interact, there's usually some level
either agree with me or argue with me,

1319
01:50:02.239 --> 01:50:05.479
and other people, you know,
they make their judgments about it.

1320
01:50:05.560 --> 01:50:09.880
Again, all the way back to
middle school. You remember some of the

1321
01:50:09.960 --> 01:50:13.279
things that we've read, you know, not always official reports, but other

1322
01:50:13.359 --> 01:50:17.359
interviews conducted by you know some of
his school age peers where you'll find Yeah,

1323
01:50:17.439 --> 01:50:21.560
this is kind of the same guy. Still boy, Yeah, or

1324
01:50:21.640 --> 01:50:27.039
the pictures again, I'm always nonplussed. Here's the picture out of Growths book.

1325
01:50:27.039 --> 01:50:30.640
He has picture of Oswald in the
classroom during the middle of the class

1326
01:50:30.880 --> 01:50:38.840
and Oswald has turned around looking at
the camera and as his arms up in

1327
01:50:38.880 --> 01:50:42.520
the air, is smiling and clowning
around. This guy is the class clown.

1328
01:50:43.439 --> 01:50:45.399
He's not a social. He might
be annoying, but he's not a

1329
01:50:45.600 --> 01:50:49.600
social. Another picture from middle school. Oh look at that. He's out

1330
01:50:49.600 --> 01:50:54.800
at the water fountain and he's talking
with this girl. Oh, well that's

1331
01:50:54.880 --> 01:51:00.359
not you know. So they're these
disconnects all over the place. Where it's

1332
01:51:00.399 --> 01:51:04.720
funny we talk about disconnects and warrant
commission, evidence free data. They are

1333
01:51:04.720 --> 01:51:10.640
all sorts of disconnects about Oswald all
over the place. Which is which is

1334
01:51:10.720 --> 01:51:14.319
really? That's why I'm taking the
approach. You know, you've got to

1335
01:51:14.399 --> 01:51:18.239
get away from those two dimensions.
There's dimension where the real Oswald, the

1336
01:51:18.359 --> 01:51:24.359
real personality, the character comes out
good parts, bad parts. But you've

1337
01:51:24.359 --> 01:51:30.399
got to get the real Oswald if
you understand what's what's going on and in

1338
01:51:31.199 --> 01:51:40.680
the warrant commission virtually managed to totally
ignore the testimony from Marina and from his

1339
01:51:41.079 --> 01:51:45.880
mother and from people that knew him. When he comes back from Mexico City,

1340
01:51:45.199 --> 01:51:50.560
he's frustrated, but he goes back
even to the pains, and Ruth

1341
01:51:50.680 --> 01:51:57.000
may not like him, but the
point is he it's like he reset again,

1342
01:51:57.239 --> 01:52:00.760
like he always does. He resets, and and he's looking to make

1343
01:52:00.880 --> 01:52:04.800
up with Marina. He's getting a
job, he's hunting for better for better

1344
01:52:04.960 --> 01:52:10.640
jobs he wants to and he's having
difficulties. And of course she's just about

1345
01:52:10.680 --> 01:52:13.960
to have a baby, So who
wants to leave Oswald around at the paint

1346
01:52:14.000 --> 01:52:17.000
home when she's just about to have
But he's back in a personal mode,

1347
01:52:17.079 --> 01:52:21.479
if you will. He's not writing
his manuscripts anymore, he's not taking pictures

1348
01:52:21.520 --> 01:52:28.199
of himself, and he's so there's
an Oswald that constantly, as I said

1349
01:52:28.239 --> 01:52:31.359
before, his situation was like what's
he like this month? Now? Don't

1350
01:52:31.359 --> 01:52:35.199
tell me what he's like about six
months? And what if we want to

1351
01:52:35.279 --> 01:52:40.279
understand what's going on with him in
October and November, what's he like?

1352
01:52:40.520 --> 01:52:45.439
Then? Don't don't fix him,
you know? Pennham against the dartboard with

1353
01:52:45.600 --> 01:52:48.119
what he was like in the Marine
Corps, or what he was like as

1354
01:52:48.159 --> 01:52:53.760
a teenager, or what he was
like. You know what's going on then,

1355
01:52:54.199 --> 01:53:00.159
because Oswald does constantly Resett's about the
only word a. You know,

1356
01:53:00.319 --> 01:53:03.399
he gets bored, something new happens, he goes and looks for a venture,

1357
01:53:03.960 --> 01:53:09.600
that something doesn't work any resets.
Well, Larry, as as we

1358
01:53:09.680 --> 01:53:12.079
get ready to tie a bow on
this one, I just want to offer

1359
01:53:12.159 --> 01:53:15.319
this little piece of commentary, is
that if somebody even takes a look at

1360
01:53:15.399 --> 01:53:19.079
say Robert Growden's books, right,
the one the unsearchably Harvey Oswald book and

1361
01:53:19.159 --> 01:53:24.600
the other one Absolute Proof, where
he's got a section on Oswald, right,

1362
01:53:25.119 --> 01:53:29.800
you can take a look at various
social situations where Oswald is posing for

1363
01:53:29.880 --> 01:53:33.840
a camera, who is interacting with
people, and so on and so forth.

1364
01:53:33.920 --> 01:53:38.720
And one thing that you have to
declare from that just that sampling,

1365
01:53:38.840 --> 01:53:41.840
Okay, And that's what I'm confronted
with because I didn't know the man,

1366
01:53:43.000 --> 01:53:49.039
is that you can't ascribe the a
social or fully antisocial label to this guy

1367
01:53:49.199 --> 01:53:54.600
because it doesn't make sense. And
a social person is going to ignore the

1368
01:53:54.680 --> 01:53:57.640
camera, turn away from the camera, not want to pose for it.

1369
01:53:57.720 --> 01:54:02.119
Okay, an antisocial person I tend
to believe would not interact with people as

1370
01:54:02.279 --> 01:54:08.000
much as is evidenced in the photography. Now maybe it's just me, but

1371
01:54:08.119 --> 01:54:10.760
I've even looked at you know,
that one home movie that's out there.

1372
01:54:10.960 --> 01:54:15.520
It's Thanksgiving, you know, with
his brother there right, you can see

1373
01:54:15.880 --> 01:54:21.920
he's not purely antisocial. Even if
he is an antisocial at times, it

1374
01:54:23.079 --> 01:54:27.640
couldn't possibly be a consistent character trait. And that's all I'm offering here.

1375
01:54:27.680 --> 01:54:30.279
I'm not saying that all we know
just based on the foot We don't,

1376
01:54:30.920 --> 01:54:35.319
but we do know that some things
cannot possibly be fully consistent based on the

1377
01:54:35.399 --> 01:54:40.199
fact that these things exist. Okay, it's not one or two photographs that

1378
01:54:40.279 --> 01:54:45.359
exist with him interacting with people.
There's a lot of them. And I'm

1379
01:54:45.399 --> 01:54:49.520
just saying, if you've got somebody
who's truly antisocial in the nineteen sixties,

1380
01:54:49.560 --> 01:54:56.239
seventies, eighties, I dare you
define an array of photographs where they're interacting

1381
01:54:56.319 --> 01:55:00.720
with people. You know, you
occasionally catch him at a Christmas photo.

1382
01:55:00.800 --> 01:55:03.640
Maybe you know what I'm saying,
but you won't see a ton of different

1383
01:55:03.680 --> 01:55:10.039
things, different situations, different social
makeups, whether it's friends, family,

1384
01:55:10.880 --> 01:55:15.880
work, etc. Marines, so
on and so forth, where you're gonna

1385
01:55:15.920 --> 01:55:21.359
get such a mixed bag. So
the consistency here is literally the inconsistency that

1386
01:55:21.760 --> 01:55:27.760
is easily observed by this sample.
And again not saying that I have a

1387
01:55:27.840 --> 01:55:31.760
complete portrait by it. I'm anxiously
awaiting when it is you will put this

1388
01:55:31.920 --> 01:55:34.800
together. Are you gonna are you
gonna do a book on it? Or

1389
01:55:34.960 --> 01:55:38.079
is it going to be a blog
post or is it going to be a

1390
01:55:38.199 --> 01:55:41.159
monograph? What? What are we
going to eventually see? I think it

1391
01:55:41.199 --> 01:55:46.079
will be more like a monograph,
trying to pull together pieces. I don't

1392
01:55:46.520 --> 01:55:49.720
I don't see it as a book. I don't, but I can see

1393
01:55:49.720 --> 01:55:57.800
it as an extended monograph and just
kind of doing what you just described.

1394
01:55:57.880 --> 01:56:03.079
It's interesting that you said that because
I can remember back in the CompuServe days,

1395
01:56:03.199 --> 01:56:08.600
being online and having exchanged with a
real hardcore or a loan nut person

1396
01:56:08.640 --> 01:56:12.520
who would say, as we's just
violent in these antisocial and it's well,

1397
01:56:12.520 --> 01:56:15.000
i'll tell you what you've got the
Groden book. Let's look at page forty

1398
01:56:15.039 --> 01:56:20.239
seven. Explain those pictures to me, Okay, tell me how those pictures

1399
01:56:20.319 --> 01:56:26.000
work with what you just said.
And the strange thing is that the exchange

1400
01:56:26.079 --> 01:56:31.920
online exchange would just pretty much end
at that point in time because they couldn't

1401
01:56:32.279 --> 01:56:38.359
do it. And it's so your
your reference to the photos in the book,

1402
01:56:38.399 --> 01:56:42.279
I've yeah, that's a great place. If you think you know Lee

1403
01:56:42.319 --> 01:56:45.720
Oswald and have not looked at that
mix of photos, then you really should

1404
01:56:46.039 --> 01:56:49.479
kind of restart yourself and go,
wait a minute, what's going on here?

1405
01:56:50.800 --> 01:56:55.319
But yeah, I hope I hope
to do that, just at least

1406
01:56:55.359 --> 01:57:00.359
to have it for reference for people
that want to want to take another kind

1407
01:57:00.399 --> 01:57:04.800
of make maybe an open minded look
at Oswald. And and I think for

1408
01:57:05.000 --> 01:57:10.239
my purpose it's it's kind you know, you and I talk context all the

1409
01:57:10.319 --> 01:57:15.279
time. It's sort of like,
what is the context for November nineteen sixty

1410
01:57:15.359 --> 01:57:20.319
three, right? What what mode
was seeing? What state was he in?

1411
01:57:21.279 --> 01:57:27.079
Uh? It was he you know, totally dedicated in some sort of

1412
01:57:27.159 --> 01:57:32.800
a conspiracy? Whatever was he?
You know? Or you've got to understand

1413
01:57:32.840 --> 01:57:39.520
the context before we can understand the
conspiracy that really, you know, I'm

1414
01:57:39.840 --> 01:57:45.600
not abandoned any conspiracy at all,
um, but uh, basically it's kind

1415
01:57:45.640 --> 01:57:48.600
of interesting at this moment. I
would disclose as as I always have,

1416
01:57:49.159 --> 01:57:55.720
I see Oswald as more vulnerable in
terms of being set up as a patsy,

1417
01:57:56.279 --> 01:58:00.640
as being any kind of knowing participant
in an action against the president.

1418
01:58:01.079 --> 01:58:05.640
And vulnerable is probably the key word
he had. He had come back.

1419
01:58:05.720 --> 01:58:11.199
He was extremely frustrated by what had
happened to him in the past sixty days.

1420
01:58:12.159 --> 01:58:15.600
And you can look at his exchanges
with Marina and the pains and to

1421
01:58:15.800 --> 01:58:21.520
some extent see how vulnerable he was
in terms of being, you know,

1422
01:58:21.720 --> 01:58:27.760
being used as it were. Absolutely, and I think that that not only

1423
01:58:28.039 --> 01:58:32.840
is context necessary here for this historical
character, but a search for continuity,

1424
01:58:33.640 --> 01:58:38.760
uh you know, amongst the evidence
that is presented, that is preserved,

1425
01:58:38.880 --> 01:58:43.600
I think is necessary if you want
to get an accurate portrait of the man.

1426
01:58:43.880 --> 01:58:47.880
And I would say that again a
nod to uh Bob Groden's you know,

1427
01:58:48.039 --> 01:58:51.880
second big book. He's got three
big books, but the second one,

1428
01:58:51.960 --> 01:58:57.479
which is devoted to Oswald, is
a unique resource in that you can

1429
01:58:57.560 --> 01:59:00.840
have all those things collected together.
Now, certainly in the Internet age,

1430
01:59:00.840 --> 01:59:03.279
you can collect together a lot of
photographs all by yourself, so on and

1431
01:59:03.359 --> 01:59:08.279
so forth. But as a book, as a freestanding, something you can

1432
01:59:08.359 --> 01:59:11.239
hold in your hand and not have
to be connected to a Wi Fi to

1433
01:59:11.720 --> 01:59:15.479
see this stuff or have to,
you know, spend hours and hours downloading

1434
01:59:15.479 --> 01:59:19.239
stuff. I mean, there's something
like nine hundred pictures in there. Remarkable

1435
01:59:19.479 --> 01:59:26.239
the amount of a character study one
can do through that photographic array that Pop

1436
01:59:26.319 --> 01:59:29.720
put together there. Robert Groden did. In fact, maybe maybe I should

1437
01:59:29.760 --> 01:59:32.640
get him back on the show before
not too long and maybe discuss just that

1438
01:59:32.800 --> 01:59:36.119
book. I know he wants to
discuss Absolute Proof, and we'll do that

1439
01:59:36.239 --> 01:59:41.039
too, but but I think I'd
like to devote a section of that to

1440
01:59:41.319 --> 01:59:44.479
to you know, to his book, and maybe bring him on the show

1441
01:59:44.520 --> 01:59:48.239
to revisit it again, because I
think it's necessary. And Larry dash Hancock

1442
01:59:48.720 --> 01:59:53.960
dot com is where you can go
Larry Hyphenhancock dot com. Uh, follow

1443
01:59:54.079 --> 01:59:57.600
Larry's work. But you think you'll
put it out through your website or you

1444
01:59:57.880 --> 02:00:00.760
have a place where it will go
eventually or not yet, not really.

1445
02:00:01.000 --> 02:00:06.000
I want to get it written and
kind of peer reviewed by several people and

1446
02:00:06.199 --> 02:00:12.960
then decide what to do with it. Because when you're writing about somebody's personality

1447
02:00:13.000 --> 02:00:16.319
and character, you can't help but
insert some of your own, and I've

1448
02:00:16.359 --> 02:00:20.079
got to make sure it doesn't have
too much of my own. So that's

1449
02:00:20.119 --> 02:00:24.399
why it's going to be more protracted
than something that's, oh, just based

1450
02:00:24.439 --> 02:00:31.279
off the documents. It's going to
be a you know, trying to present

1451
02:00:31.439 --> 02:00:34.640
him needs to need some balance to
it, and of course you've got to

1452
02:00:34.680 --> 02:00:39.640
have the balance check. But if
I get the balance done well enough,

1453
02:00:39.800 --> 02:00:44.920
shoot, I might convince Rex Bradford
to let me put another another paper on

1454
02:00:45.079 --> 02:00:47.920
Mary Farrell. Well, I look
forward to seeing it no matter where it

1455
02:00:48.119 --> 02:00:53.159
is, because I look forward to
just about anything Larry writes. It always

1456
02:00:53.279 --> 02:00:58.239
is loaded with context and continuity.
And I look forward to the Three Dimensions

1457
02:00:58.279 --> 02:01:01.640
of Lee Harvey Oswald or whatever is
the title will be here because I think

1458
02:01:01.720 --> 02:01:08.239
we'll get a much more maybe not
totally complete portrait, but a much more

1459
02:01:08.319 --> 02:01:13.119
reasonable portrait of the historical character that
we have all gotten to know in one

1460
02:01:13.159 --> 02:01:16.600
way or another, to some degree
or another over the years. Larry Hancock

1461
02:01:16.760 --> 02:01:20.239
was my guest in the second hour, and of course Mike Swanson in the

1462
02:01:20.279 --> 02:01:24.640
first, and I heard you go
to Larry dash Hancock dot com. I

1463
02:01:24.760 --> 02:01:29.319
recommend all of Larry's writing, and
I recommend Mike's as well. Anyway,

1464
02:01:29.399 --> 02:01:30.680
no matter who you are, where
you are, when you are, remember

1465
02:01:30.720 --> 02:01:36.399
I'm merely o'chelly. All of you
are indeed the effect and get in touch

1466
02:01:36.439 --> 02:01:40.199
with me if you want to get
involved in that video after ten pm tonight.

1467
02:01:40.640 --> 02:01:43.119
Thanks a lot, Larry, Thanks
Mike. Goodnight,