What is bracklacin fellow Thermonuclear A efforts, I had Dana Valley coming at you
once more, and as always with my certified fantabulous Thermonuclear AF co host,
mister Grant Hughes, we are on. I'm now sensing we're reaching the end
of our positional ranking series. We're on to the top ten Power Forwards.
Yes, we know how some people feel about positions. We found this to
be fun in the wake of the trade deadline coming and some nice evergreen stuff,
and it was it made me hate myself while I was going through it,
and Power Forwards for me, I hated myself the most, just because
dealing with positional classifications on top of a deep field became a bear. Grant,
how are you doing? I'm doing great. I'm I am excited to
uncover the so of your bad feelings and anxiety for this position. And I
am again excited to see how we differ because I have already used up several
guys at different positions that probably belong here, and so we have the potential
for some good discussion. I think at this position. I think so it's
weird because we both I'm guessing you have the same top two. So do
you want to give me who are your top two? Yeah, Yiannis is
one with a bullet I feel, you know, there's no we don't need
to even really discuss that. And KD is my number two. I hope
that's your number two because you haven't. You didn't use Kde at small forward,
and it's hard for me to imagine him being lower than two here.
So yeah, I will say I had you had Kawhi as a small forward.
I did not why I had Kauhi as a power forward, and I
didn't know what to do quite frankly, when it came to ranking like KD
and Kawhi. KDE's been more available this year. There's just there is no
comparison for him on the offensive end, and so I leaned KD as well.
So we have the same top two. But would you have put if
you were ranking them positionally in the same bucket, which you did not?
Go check out the small forward rankings if you want Grant's thoughts on Kawhi,
Leonard, would you have put Kawhi? Just because I don't know how much
of it is recency bias for me, but I'm just looking at the minutes
played and what KD does on offense in general, and it's it's I feel
like it kind of has to be him at number two. You know,
I forgot that you hadn't used Kawhi yet, and I made it seem too
simple that Giannis and KD were one two. I think there's there's for sure
a case for Kawhi to be here at number two over Durant, But I
think I still would have put Durant at number two, just like it could
be a little better, because I'm still, yeah, not entirely here from
three is just hard to look away from on like pretty good volume and just
you know, I don't know that's a tier, right, I think I
think you stopped the tier after Kawhi, and maybe Giannis belongs by him,
But Kawhi would have been no lower than three for me had I put him
here, and it would have been a tough call. I think, so
yeah, I made it too simple. I think if Kawhi were here,
I would have had to agonize a little bit over who's two and who's three.
I am with you, though Yannis at number one was just I know
there's been some offensive weirdness and Buddy like the free throw shooting and like could
be a little bit annoying. Still is over seventy percent for his career,
though not something I necessarily would have guessed. Uh, but like he's just
even I know the Bucks aren't good defensively, he is still great defensively.
So Yiannis was easy? Was the KD Kawhi stuff? Who did you end
up? So you don't have Kawi in this bucket? Yeah? Did you
have it three? So I had Lebron at number three? Oh I don't,
I mean like there? And I think maybe, well, I'd be
curious if you even think, well, you've still got a bunch of other
guys that I don't have here. So because you've got a certain Boston Celtic
that you haven't listed yet that I think, well, then, honestly,
why don't we have that discussion I have that certain Boston Celtic behind Lebron number.
Lebron was number four for me, And it's funny. I think a
lot of people would be like, well, why wasn't he a point guard
or why wasn't he a small forward? And it's defensively now he's just more
of a four. And with Davis playing so much five in general, like
there wasn't no matter how you slice it. Quite frankly, it was just
tough to make Lebron. In other years, I think you could have very
very easily, or at least doably made Lebron a three. I don't know
that that's like an option this season. Yeah, I think I don't know
what I would have done if I had had Tatum still here to choose from.
So I did have him over Tatum. And the thing is for me
is just Lebron's the better passer. Yeah, and he is just like,
yeah, the there's like a Wax and Waney feeling to when he's shooting his
jumpers, but like he can still get to the rim at will, which
is something that Jason Tatum just can't do. Yeah, And so I just
I mean, I look at the numbers. It's like he's averaging basically twenty
five eight as sis and he is shooting almost forty percent from three. So
it's like, you look at him, this isn't last year when he was
shooting thirty two percent from three. He's hitting his off the dribble threes.
So I'm just there's a case for Tatum over Lebron because Tatum does shoulder a
heavier defensive workload, but like just the passing and the scoring or so close
to how would you have put Tatum over Lebron? I guess if you were
ranking them. So it's like the KD versus Quid discussion we're having it with
Lebron and Tatum. Yeah, I guess I would just say, I'm glad
I don't have to make that decision because it will be That's why do you
understand now why this was the hardest one for me? I I almost I
did. I don't know if I did this consciously, but I did divvy
up the positions in the way that made it like so I had fewer of
these kind of like I'm pulling my hair out, you know, close calls
between good players. By the way, I was prepared to do what you
did, and people who've listened and watch know how we feel about the players
on the same team being the same position. I was either going to move
Jail into the two or have him and Tatum both be threes. I was
convinced, but I was just digging into it, and I was like,
he's kind of like a four. Yeah, on defense, And so it's
like when they're functionally just the blurred lines between while he's a point forward,
should that make them a three? I don't care about that as much.
So I just I did not think I went into this the rankings, and
I thought I was gonna have him with small forwards. Yeah, I mean
Tatum starts and closes at the four most of the time for his team.
So it's just like, I just think it's more for me. It's more
a case of like, you know, what's the Like, yeah, that's
true, but like does he have Well maybe the problem is like there is
really no such thing as like the traditional power forward skill set anymore because the
game has changed so much, so you can kind of just say there's you
know, we could have just totally like gone crazy with this and been like
lead ball handlers, wings bigs, you know, and just ranked that that
would have only been three podcasts though instead of five. We would have had
to do like twenty five players at each position. Though, all right,
so no qualms with what you did there my number four and we moved down
a tier. I think here is Laurie Markinen. I will just so I'm
just gonna interrupt and say, so I have him as you have your number
four, I am of my number six, like he's the next player for
both of us. Yeah, so yeah, basically because I don't have a
couple guys here. That's we're actually so far we're we're in lockstep. Except
yeah, that's why I introduction it, all right, So we are in
lockstep, not with positional classifications, but how we ranked them for the most
part. Right, So I'll and you know, I don't know what to
say about him. I think the knock on him is probably that like he's
not a number one on a great team, but he's about as good a
player as you can have offensively that is not quite that level just because of
the self creation is not the same as someone like Tatum Kowhile. It's just
it's just a little different. But he's just an ace shooter on the move.
And he's got i mean size wise, like he is a power you
know, traditional power forward size, and he's playing there more this year,
like in that true spot. And I mean he's had stints in his career
where he's played some five, and he's had stints where he's played some three.
So like, you know, I think that's that's a feather in his
cap is there's there's versatility here that you maybe don't get from some of the
guys for they're down the list. The next guy for me is Siakam at
five, and I think you could justify as flip flopping him and market in
just kind of depending on what you value. But then after that, I'll
stop there and give the floor back to you. But after five, it's
like, I don't I'm not in love with any of the rest of my
my top ten or the order necessarily, but I do feel strong about the
top five. I'm in love with so many in my top ten, maybe
just not the order because guys will ask. So Siakam was my next guy
too. That puts him at seven, which again, when you have Kauhi
and Tatum on this list, it sounds so low, but yeah, look
at who's in front of him. Now, this is where it gets interesting.
Is so the case I think we have like kind of the the one
through five might be its own tier, or it's Giannis is in his own
tier, and then you have Katie and Kawhi, or maybe it's Yannis,
Katy, Kwhi whatever. Once you move from five to six, there's like
a fundamental shift. Yeah, it feels like having Lowry over Siakam and some
of the players to come is something I labored over. But I made this
comparison. It was spurred by bad question. I can't remember which user asked
about it, but they were talking about people were comparing Lowry to a seven
foot Clay Thompson, and I was like, he honestly reminds me of more
so of the Golden State Warriors or Kevin Durant. And that is the level
of efficiency and like play finishing that we're seeing now. Kevin Durant was better
because he is a better self starter. But the fact that Lowry can come
in, can play the three or the four holds up defensively. This is
not I'm not making a case for him over Durant. I'm saying, why
do you have someone who's more of a self creator below him when we all
value the frum scratch creation we're dealing with. Scalability is important. Scalability on
Bonker's efficiency, historic efficiency. When you look at his twos and threes,
it matters, and it makes building out a team around him. That's Lowry.
Marketing is the reason why the Utah Jazz have so access to so many
different directions. That's a moment and that matters to me as does like he'll
give you a little bit of rebounding if he's gonna need to play the four
more or when he does play. And he's not a sieve on the defense.
No, he's not like a good rim protector, but he has the
size and sort of knows how to use it and he's not super slow.
So that's why I had him over Siakam. And also I'm well, yeah,
we'll Sayvix, I think you're gonna get to that name after Siaka or
maybe you won't, but that was the we're gonna deal with guys who are
coming that are still these better self starters than Larry market In. But Larry
Marketing in his role is a megastar. And because his role exists, and
sometimes you could say, you know, KCP is an example superstar in his
role, but that doesn't make him a superstar. Larry Marketin's role unlocks so
many team building options that that's why I have him as high. And I
think you could even simplify it and just say, like if we're just talking
about Siakam versus market In, Siakam is probably the more well rounded player,
like just because of the defense he brings in the facilitation and stuff. But
Marketen has the premium skill, which is just like lights out shooter that every
defense is terrified of whether he's got it at a standstill or on the move.
So it's like it, you know, it's kind of just depends what
you're what you're after. And like I, I would have no problem if
if you had flipped those two guys. Let's see, this is where it
gets. So so I went Julius Randall six. Oh okay, and I
feel like that's hypocritical because we have docked guys for injuries and it sounds like
even though this shoulder injury is not as severe as it otherwise as it maybe
could have been, it's still a long time and it kind of cuts against
our hole, like, well, you got him for the rest of the
year in the playoffs. I'm an admitted, like I don't. Randall is
not like my player type, even the best version of him not my favorite,
but like at some point here before those are honestly, those might be
the toughest players, even more than a pure two. Yeah, it might
be the toughest players to build around. They might be better than pure twos
because they're going to have more size. Yeah, but I yeah, so
positionally very easy for me, but just skill wise, you know, I
just don't love his game. But twenty four, nine and five on like
good enough efficiency and he plays a major role for a really good team.
Like, I'm not gonna overthink this too much. I think I think I
feel okay with him there. But you could talk like the guys I have
at seven and nine, seven and eight, I think there's a strong case
for moving up. And I will say, so, I'll get to I
have Julius rand on my list, So I'll go through my list of until
we get to Julius Randall and spoiler alert, there's a couple of names here.
My first guy, I have Zion at eight. I didn't know what
to do with him because at any given point of like whatever, Zion just
might be the like long number. I mean, like even the names I
have in front of him, but like on any given night, you might
just be ready to declare Zion better than Lebron and Tatum. Yeah, I
just the defensive limitations that he still has. And then there's just been more
of these offensive pits and peaks really just worry me. And then there's not
so much this year, but there's the injury concerns, and then just athletically,
he still has real pop. But and since we're talking about justice,
I don't think you can hold that too much against him. Where yeah,
if you're worried two to three years down the line, but there are just
some nights even now where he doesn't look like the capslock dominant version of Zion.
It's not just because the Pelicans are deeper or better. And then I
have at number nine Scotty Barnes, who you had as the three which I
was I railed against under the new context of the Raptors. But for most
of this season I think that you had a stronger case there. I just
he's improved so much, and I think the argument against him right now might
be, well, he has not looked completely at home in the new dynamic
in Toronto, But you just traded two of your three best players in Ogiannobi
and Siakam for players in RJ. Barrett Emanuel Quickly who you now want to
be two of your three best players essentially, So there's gonna be some ecosystem
adjustments that need to take place. But Scotty is a playmaker. This year
is better. His interior passing has been incredible. The shooting is real,
even when it's come down a bit as a standstill shooter. The pull up
jumper, we've already seen it kind of fade. You can run stuff through
him in the post. And then defensively they have him guarding more like size
guys and he's just been a monster. He's already blocked more jumpers outside of
the restricted area this season than all of last year. And like he's just
he's blocked. I think he leads the league and block three pointers as well,
where he's right there. This is just someone who's wearing so many different
hats and actually excelling. It's not purely experimental, and I value that a
ton. And then that's when I have Julius Randall coming in at number ten.
I didn't know there was the injury that factored in. There's you know
the fact that he takes these off the dribble jumpers and even the off the
dribble threes, but then they're shaky percentages on them. He can be This
is a weird thing to say and I'm curious what you think about this.
He's super important to what the Knicks do defensively because you look at the scope
of his assignments, there are very few players on defense. We're more frustrating
than Julius Randall because there are just nights where he clearly doesn't give a flying
fuck. Yeah, and it's so frustrating. So that coupled with the injury
and then some of the you know, is he taking enough three is he
hitting them at a high enough clip? The fact that that question still exists
even though he answers it a lot of the time in the affirmative, That's
why I have him here again. I'm open if you need to have a
discussion like does he belong above z Eyeon or Scotty At this point, it's
it's possible. But you know, the big thing for me is just only
five three point attempts per game and you're under thirty two percent. That's you
know, I get that you're really good and you're he's an All Star.
Don't have an issue with it. There will be an injury replacement for him.
But so this was again the names that will get to what I left
off. I'll let you take us there. Power Forward was fucking hard,
man. Yeah, it was hard for me for a different reason, just
because this next chunk is, you know, there's knocks against all these guys.
I actually, so I'll just stick with my list and then if it
looks bad. And I was gonna shuffle around like seven, eight and nine,
but whatever I have, I have Karl Anthony Towns at seven. That's
like gonna bump a lot of people positionally because he's so clearly a center.
But he's played power Forward each of the last two years predominantly. So he's
kind of a marketing case where the premium shooting is just the premium skill that
I really value. And like he you know, defensively, I don't know
that you rely on him. They don't really have to. He's part of
a really great defense and he's you know, i'd say he's been probably break
even, maybe a little better than that defensively this year. But just like
that level of shooting from that position with that volume is you know, I
mean, he belongs there. I think at seven. For me, I
do have Zion at eight. So I'm like, I had a semi important
message. I was answering who was your number seven seven is Karl Anthony Towns
and eight is Zion so a Karl Anthony Towns. Yeah, I mean that's
that's interesting. I wouldn't. Yeah, I guess I'm not like really pumping
him up. I having him at eight at his position, so Towns,
yeah, town seven, Zion eight. I have Paula Mancaro at nine.
I think, like the scoring efficiency is still just something that it's hard to
scoring inefficiency, to be more exact, is something I have a hard time
looking past. But it's a tough role. He's really young, and like
there are just nights where you watch him play and you say, like we're
not that far away from teams just like we can't do anything with this guy
like on like matchup wise, like he's too strong, he's too able to
get where he wants like that. You know, he's he's not there yet.
I think he's getting closer. But I'm fine with him, you know,
just at the tail end of the top ten. So kat Zion,
Paolo, and then I just I didn't love any of my other options for
ten, and so here's you can you'll just laugh, I guess, but
I have Draymond Green at ten. Look so so, I mean you have
to look at consider who else was on my list, So like my toughest
cuts were, So my eleven was Jalen Williams, JDub, Then I had
Karl Anthony Towns. Then I had Palo Bank Carol. The efficiency stuff just
worries me with Paalo and part of it is on the magic. But like
it's a big deal, I might he was. I think you can make
like I just when I look at the names I have in front of him,
like what is the case for Palo Bank, Caro over Randall or Scottie
Barnes or even Zion at this point is kind of where I lands. Like
that's why he's off. I had Dre though was after that as my toughest
cut. So I don't think that this is given who your names are,
Like you already used Jail and J Dubb for instance, I don't think that's
egregious. Then you already used you also used Kawhi and Jadata as well.
Yeah, so all right, good, So I want to get to part
of the like you know, the Draymond case is just defense and facilitation from
that position that you just really rarely get site the line up data with Andrew
Wiggins and comingo like he's the reason that he fixed it. Dan, it's
not a problem anymore. The worst, the worst two man combos now the
best. It's it's all Draymond. He just solved the problem. He just
had to. You put him out there with somebody and he figures out how
to make them work. Names I didn't include that, I I probably I
don't know that there's case for the top three for me. Aaron Gordon just
like that's another role playing guy though that this season buddy. Beyond that,
Yeah, the shooting is if he but again, I'm not gonna forget the
playoff runs and and just the theory of what he brings defensively and as a
playmaker. At the four. Jeremy Grant had him as a four. He
didn't quite make it. Tobias Harris, I had him as a four,
didn't quite make it. I'm not sure if there's any other like egregious.
Did you say not egregious? But I also considered on my long list,
Cam Johnson, Kyle Kuzma. I think that was that's those guys were threes
more threes for me. But yeah, Cam, Cam would definitely have gotten
some consideration. I just want to make sure I'm really not forgetting. Yeah.
Oh, Jalen Johnson was also tough. Yeah, he just did there
was he missed some time already And it's like, does he do enough,
like offensively that's not solely complimentary, and is he good enough to like he's
a very he's gonna get paid and I think he's a fantastic player. But
like that was someone who I also had on my list, Like we wouldn't
have thought of these guys, but like Boya and Bogdanovich, Kelvin Johnson,
both those guys are diminished from I think where they're where they would have been
viewed last year. Not a lot. Jabari Smith junior on the rise but
not there yet. Tari Easton is basically a four too. That would have
been an interesting one. Yeah, I mean if you look at EPM Easton,
Easton's not quite top ten, but he's like not that far from Zion
and Pallo in terms of so future Utah Jasmine Tars, Jonathan Kaminga. I
mean, obviously this version of Kaminga man is it? How sad is it?
Where would Wiggins have ranked on this list after the title and I didn't
consider him for three or four at all. If if we had done small
forward rankings after the title, Wiggins would have been like top eight, I
think right, Like you couldn't put him anywhere else. He looked like one
of the best wing defenders in the league and he was getting me scoring in
the teams, Like that's just that's that's Michel Bridges esque. Like he would
have been up there in that range. I think, why these new mac
effects? Did you just see the balloons rise up? And I thought you
had were having a party in there during our podcast with Carter Rodriguez, I
like, I moved my hands and fireworks started going off. It was the
most bizarre thing. Are you magical? Do you have? Like? Is
that it? I so, what's interesting? And I think we should talk
about this because we haven't put the centers one out yet. By the way,
I didn't even consider and I don't know if I would have Miles Bridges
this like I didn't know I have him and Mobley as a five because the
staggering and I don't know that he would have on your list. He probably
has a case above Dre. I don't know if he has a case above
anybody else on my list. He's not cracking it even if he was a
power forward. But like him and Jared Allen are staggered enough. That was
the team because I separated Cat and go Bear clearly like that was the team.
I was looking at how many minutes they play separately, And of course
Mobley has missed a ton of time this year he's back. Now, that
was a team. I was like, noo, these dudes are both centers.
Yeah, I think that's right. I think that's right. It does
feel a little incongruous if we're gonna if I I'm allowed to use Cat here,
and like I would only consider Mobi a five, I did think of
Mobley as a five. I will say I was a little bit more consistent
with this than you were then because I have Mobley and Jared Allen are my
only exception. You had Jaylen Brown and Jason Tatum were both both threes.
Paul George and Kawhi are both point guards or whatever. Like what, I'm
all over the place, Dan, Just do it, do what you feel.
That was my approach to this exercise. What with your heart? I
respect it. Yeah, I went with my heart. I just this guy
feels like a three to me, So I'm gonna go with it. Can
you do you want to recap your top ten power forwards? Yeah? My
number one power forward is Yiannis. We agree there. Number two is KD
number three. I have Lebron number four, Lowry Markinen number five, Pascal
Siakam, Julius Randall six, Kat at seven, Zion at eight, Paalo
Bancaro at nine, and Raymond Green at ten. So I have Giannis at
one, I have KD at two, Kawhi at three, Lebron at four,
Tatum at five, Lowry Marketing at six, Pascal Siakam at sian,
Zion, Williamson at eight, Scotty Marnes at nine, Julius Randall at ten.
So Man two notes on this, think about how much the game has
changed or how old we're all getting the fact that like KD and Lebron like
just weren't even considerations for me three, it is like, no, these
guys are just fours now, yeah, like that's just where we're at.
And then Zion being eight, and then it doesn't feel too high. But
it's like I'm looking at the names in front of him for mine and I'm
like, Okay, are you really mad. You can't be at my top
five if you're mad, Zion's not in it. I don't know what to
tell you. But like Lowry and Siakam, like, I guess that's the
debate. So it's like, Zion at eight feels so low, and then
I'm looking at yours and I'm like, maybe it really isn't. Like he's
not going to crack your top three, that's for sure, And so it's
like Zion eight feels low and then it doesn't. At the same time that
weird, Well, like the best version. It's interesting, like you can't
talk about the best version of Randall or Cat or Siakam in the same way
you can talk about the best version of Zion, which we which I think
if you got peaked Zion whatever that means, or if we ever it again,
he probably is like, you know, right there with Lebron or even
you know, somewhere there. But like, and that's just not true for
those other guys, but I'm not I guess what. I guess him being
at eight for both of us is kind of an admission that we're not we
don't think we're getting the twenty seven a game on sixty five percent true shooting
version of Zion again, which is kind of blasphemous because while there are guys
I would love for New Orleans to have instead of what their roster looks like
right now, I'm so unbelievably high on the Pelicans still, but like,
I don't for me, it's more of an emission that I don't know what
to think of Zion now or later. At this point, I'm pretty anchored.
I mean, this is not a good quality, but I'm pretty anchored
on like the idea that we've seen the best of Zion already. I think
he and he's not that so part of that is last year he was an
MVP candidate before he got injured, So like that's not too ludicrous to say,
but it's very sad to think because Zion Williamson is twenty three years old,
right, yeah, So do you want to take this out of here?
On the uh, Paolo, you just didn't the inefficiency was the issue
for for not having Ben Caro in the top ten. Just so, what
is the name on my list that he bumped? It's I guess if you
like, are you just gonna say I think and we haven't really touched upon
this they're gonna be. People say, well, you should reward winning,
and you know what, Magic haven't been winning lately. They have like a
bottom three offense over the past, like since December fifteenth basically, So there's
if you want to say him instead of I think the only ones where they're
I would listen would be Scottie Randall and maybe Zion. But like my top
seven, it's just sort of like, I don't know, I wish it
was him, look him and not even having Cat like because I already spoiled
it. I don't have Cat listed with my centers not having Cat top ten,
I know, I thought Rudy Gobert should have been all start like.
That's also kind of wild, that's true. Well, yours is just so
much harder because you had to fit Kawhi and Tatum. I had a lot
more like. It didn't get any easier. It's not like it made centers
easier for me, And it made the field of small forwards so shallow that
then it made small forwards more comple I should have went with you and done
what was better for my heart and my chest. That's a good spot to
go. That's power forwards, folks. Thanks for listening. Thanks for watching.
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an apology to Jared Allen