WEBVTT

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M S s SS, spending the
most says really a most lives. I

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love spas, loves little space,
the spand spend the span new All right,

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what's up? What come everybody?
More of the stupid nonsense. So

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we're gonna do. I'm gonna play
these clips or eight clip and for the

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benefit of the audience, because most
people are not familiar with Tomism, they're

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not familiar with a lot of these
sort of scholastic nuances. I will be

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briefly pausing here and there to give
the references and the sources to their various

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papers that I am referring to.
So there's a couple of places where I

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want to pull up the Bradshaw book
for you guys, or the text for

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you guys. This is not his
book, airs Al Easton West. It's

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his paper from an Alogia Journal.
It's the concept of divine energies, which

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I think you have to get.
No, it's essence energy, what kind

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of distinction? That's it. It's
a separate paper. But I'm I'm trying

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to find the PDF link. What
because the first part of our discussion is

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about cat epanoia, which you actually
ended up agreeing on here. It is

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Okay, So I just want this
link ready for you guys, so I

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can give it to you in the
YouTube chat. It's one of those websites,

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but it's you can tell it.
It's like it's a legit link.

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I've done loaded it many times.
So I'll just tritt a bunch of coffee.

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So that's why I'm all acting weird. Here is the ink for the

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Bradshaw paper that comes up pretty early
in the discussion, and you know,

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Bradshaw goes into the different levels of
later Latin types of distinctions, but really

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none of this he's even that controversial, because we actually ended up agreeing for

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the first fifteen minutes of this discussion
on these points. So here is that

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link. There it is, and
what we're gonna do is it's not a

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very long clip. I'm gonna play
the clip. I'm gonna explain some of

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the ideas and topics and what he
was saying. And as you'll see,

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for about the first ten to fifteen
minutes, we basically just agreed because he

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was stating the Thomas position, and
this actually shows that we're on the same

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page. And what I've been saying
Tomasm says for many years is actually correct.

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So I don't think he had the
intention of demonstrating that I did accurately

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understand the Thomas position. But when
we go through the these points, it

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actually does show that. So it's
fine for the first fifteen minutes, and

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then it turns into discussion about the
divine ideas and the actualization of those ideas

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and pure act, and he tries
to pull from some distinctions and acquaint us

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in an Aristotle relating to imminent action
and transient action, which don't do the

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work that he thinks it does.
And we're going to show that that imminent

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activity and transient activity are a type
of distinction that can be made. But

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the problem is not does Tomism claim
that. So one thing that we'll notice,

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and this is my perpetual criticism of
Tomism, is that quite often,

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not in every case, but quite
often Tomism thinks that if you just keep

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stating and fleshing out the position,
that that constitutes an argument. And as

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we'll see, as we progress through
the discussion, and as he unfolds more

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and more the Tomas position, it's
not addressing the objection that's being made.

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He keeps adding new distinctions, and
he adds new things like the difference between

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an imminent action and a transient action. But that doesn't answer the question of

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when the fact that the divine ideas
are synonymous with the divine essence and thus

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necessary to just say, well,
but God is a personal being with will,

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and so he can will to actualize
whatever he wants. I understand,

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we understand that that is the Tomas
position. I know that you guys confess

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that God has a will. I
know that you don't believe that creation is

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necessary. I know that you don't
want to affirm what the modal collapse arguments

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say. We know that, But
the question is not do you have a

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position that says that God has free
will? The question is is that consistent

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with what you've said over here?
Those are two different things, and so

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so often because the way of the
way that Thomas think about argumentation and the

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way they think about systems, they
actually mistake the argument for the position with

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laying out the position. And that's
what we're gonna see. So I'll go

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ahead and start it. I think
a lot of you are going to be

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really disappointed. You were gonna be
all hyped up thinking that this was some

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like big gotcha and it's nothing.
And the reason that I left the discussion

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was because it got to the point
where I'd asked the same question about three

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or four times and he and I
said, this is all just bullshit,

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dude, I'm talking about the discussion
and he got all butt hurt about it

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and said, what are you talking
to me? It's such a way to

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its supped to be. It wasn't
an insult. It just said the conversation

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is bullshit. Okay, that's not
a personal insult on you. And so

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if it's at that point where it's
like and then what's the point? So

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here we go. We'll play it
and uh, this is there's so much

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of hubble over nothing basically right here. Okay, So we're gonna have a

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discussion today with Fanatic Tomas on the
topic of distinctions in God, the processions

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or generation and so forth, the
energies, what his views are, what

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our views are. So now that
we're recording, I'll let him go ahead

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and make his make his points.
Yeah, so hi everyone on Fanatic Tomas.

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You guys already know me from Twitter. My ad is schlastic Kicks.

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So the reason I agree to do
this discussion with Chase because it's so hard

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to do a discussion on Twitter it's
or limited characters, so it's fitter to

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have a yeah DC chat. So
anyways, my I'm a Tomas and I

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take to classical Thomas position on the
mine attributes the vine essence and the things

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of person the essence. So my
position is that there is a minor virtual

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distinction between the divine attributes to divine
essence and between the persons and the divine

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issse. However, there is a
major real distinction between the divine persons themselves.

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So the Father is really distinct from
the Sun because by the virtue of

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the real production as beginner to the
begotten, and the same applies to the

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spirit aspirator aspiated. Now, the
way the hash out this distinction is that

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the minor virtual distinction is a logical
distinctional rational distinction. It's called distinct your

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atsioni's. But this distinction is not
purely mental. So there's a difference between

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a purely mental distinction and virtual distinction. The purely mental distinction is only on

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the part of our intellect, whereas
the virtual distinction is both on the part

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of our intellect and on the part
of the thing itself insofar as the thing

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itself, in its richness, has
the virtue or power. That's why it's

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all the virtual distinction. It doesn't
power are present itself to your mind through

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different aspects to An example of this
would be rationality and animality. So rationality

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and animality are are not really distinct
because man is rational and animal by one

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and the same entity. But just
because you have animality, it doesn't mean

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that you have rationality, So you
can have one without the other. But

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the converse does not all true.
Now it's called a mid major ritual distinction

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because you have animality and you have
rationality, but animality does not include rationality

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necessarily. There's another kind of distinction
called minor virtual distinction. This is called

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minor virtual distinction because it's not after
the manner of excluding and excluded, like

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rational animal, but implicit and explicit
insofar as concept of attributes implicitly include each

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other. So we can give the
example of transcendentals. Each of them implicitly

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include the other. So for example, truth and being ends veritas, those

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are Yeah, so I forgot it. I didn't notice that that was muted

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because I was playing the clip.
Yeah, I apologize for guys. I'll

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just kind of add that in later
the audio part. But basically what I

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was saying in summation is that everything
that's going on here is not that controversial.

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We pretty much agree he's when he's
talking about the minor virtual distinctions.

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He's talking about how at Hoomis conceives
of the attributes as all basically in reality

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identical and synonymous, but in our
conception we make distinctions. Right. So

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he says that a minor virtual distinction
does have some basis in the thing itself

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in reality, but it's not telling
you ontologically what that thing is like.

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It's only telling you to use this
phrase. It's looking to propose that to

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the mind, and then the mind, as he phrases it, struggles to

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capture this reality of God's unity in
a bunch of conceptual distinctions. Right.

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So that's what he means by a
minor virtual distinction. And why is that

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Because all of the attributes are actually
in reality synonymous with the divine essence and

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reducible to the divine essence. So
in this debate, this is actually called

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identity thesis. And what I was
saying a minute ago was that the major

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real distinction is what he believes about
the persons, right, the Tomas position

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believes that the persons in the triad
are major real distinctions. We believe that

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that's not controversial. We agree with
that. We don't affirm this. And

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this is the point. When Basil
argues that the energies are just as distinct

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as the persons in the triad,
then it's it's just as real for the

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energies. And so the later scholastic
distinctions that come up in the Middle Ages

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that in the Bradshaw text that I
linked you, they're they're not that relevant

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for the Kappa nocean distinctions. And
basically in Tomasm, we don't have a

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problem with this, except that the
attributes can't be This is what we're gonna

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say. We would hold the real
distinction or what they're calling a major real

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distinction also for the energies you see, and not just the energies amongst themselves,

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but also the energies as distinct from
the essence. And I've got to

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press him on those points, but
I hopefully hopefully we're seeing that right now.

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He's just laying out the Tumas position, and I agree with him,

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and what this demonstrates is that I've
accurately understood and present the Tumas position.

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There wasn't misunderstanding. There wasn't me
trying to be deceptive. In the history

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of these discussions, if you go
back to the debate or the discussion that

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I have with classical theists, I
mean, we basically had this same structure,

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right, We had me saying that
the Thomas conception of the attributes is

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conceptual, but it's not the position
of the Cappadocians, right, because the

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Cappadocians think that the distinction in the
energies is just as quote real as a

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distinction between the hypostasies. So there's
a departure, there's a difference in this

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view, and we'll let him continue
here implicitly include each other. And this

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is a kind of distinction that if
you paus it between the divine attributes and

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the dvine essence and among the attributes
himsell and between the person is in the

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essence. So so this twofold foundation
is first on the part of the think

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itself, insofar as the divine essence, in its supreme eminence and simplicity becaussesses

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all these perfections, not as really
distinct attributes, but has one, so

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so there he's stating this that the
reality of the divine essence is beyond our

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comprehension, and so the various attributes
cannot in reality be distinct realities. The

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Palamite synods actually use that terminology to
contrast themselves to Tomism when the toe most

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defines it as distinct realities. The
reality that is Providence is not and cannot

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be identical to the reality that is
love or the reality of this glory and

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God. That's the real distinction or
what they're calling a major real distinction.

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So again when it comes to hypostases, we all agree major real distinction.

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Cappadocians call that a real distinction.
Cat Epanoia is referring to that in Basil's

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uses, because cat ipanoia, for
Basil is not strictly always purely conceptual.

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Sometimes it refers to something conceptual and
real at the same time. And so

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what the Thomas is calling the major
distinction between the persons is equivalent to what

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Basil talks about when he talks about
a real distinction. What they're talking about

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as pure cat epenoia or purely conceptual
distinction is what they're calling their minor virtual

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right. And that's only applicable to
the divine attributes and actions because in God,

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in Thomism, God is act as
purists or pure act right, so

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there's not potential, there's not unrealized
capacity in God. God is purely second

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actuality. And that will come up
here in a moment. God is one

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and God is powerful, and God
is knowing game, God is feeling by

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one and the same thing, which
is a divine issies. But since the

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objective, but you'll notice he made
the statement there that the minor virtual distinction

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is grounded in the thing. So
the distinction is grounded in it, but

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not actually ontologically present in it.
It's only grounded in it in our conception

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of it. You see, That's
what's meant by minor virtual. But what

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I press him on here in a
moment is that, as Palamoss press barleym,

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the distinctions then in those terms actually
come to mean nothing. They're they're

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only relative to human understanding and conceptual
conceptualization, and thus we don't actually know

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what foreknowledge is or what providence is
different or distinct from love and glory if

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they're just human conceptual categories and foreknowledge, and these things don't actually correspond to

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realities. Then they're all basically blended
together in the modal collapse point. So

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I understand them. But you'll notice
that as I keep pressing these points,

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he doesn't addres rest that objection.
He just states more of the tomistic positions

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and views, never addressing the point
form of concepts of these attitudes differ.

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It has a foundation in the thing
itself, but that foundation is potential,

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and it's looking towards in mind to
present itself or in other words, to

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impose itselfable. So notice there that
he said that the foundation of the minor

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virtual distinction in God is looking really
to impose that elsewhere in the human mind.

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So it's not an act. It's
not a distinction that's actually grounded in

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the thing. So in other words, when we start listening divine attributes,

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and this is the Palami critique,
the divine attributes begin to lose their meaning

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because they're in reality synonymous. But
when I press them on this, you'll

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see where he goes with it.
So let's say that we have divine providence,

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right, and we have glory,
and we have love. Right,

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here's some of divine attributes. The
problem is that certain attributes only apply to

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the created order, and the answer
of the Thomas will be to simply restrict

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these attributes to causal effects in the
created order. But providence is not a

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causal effect. Providence is an operation
or action or energy or attribute of God.

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But you'll notice as we as I
press this issue and keep pressing it,

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it keeps getting cashed out as Thomas
always do as God cause and creature

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effect, creature effect, never addressing
the actual objection, which is that the

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question is what is providence? Qua
providence? I'm not asking you to tell

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me that you think it's a cause
and effect relation. I already know that

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everything in Tomism, when it comes
to these attributes then gets cashed out as

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cause and effect. So when I
ask him what is providence, he's going

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to explain that that is something that
is a it relates only to the created

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order, and it's a created effect
that is an eternal thing in the divine

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mind. But that's not going to
work because providence, love, glory,

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and the divine ideas are not just
capacities in the divine mind that God wills

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or to not create. And why
is that? Because the divine will is

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synonymous with the divine essence, which
he will call necessary. That's the key

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point here. So I'm not asking
him if he believes that God has a

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will and that he chooses which reality
he wants to actualize and create. I

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know he believes that. The objection
is that it's not consistent with the way

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he's cashed out divine simplicit city and
identifying and calling all the divine attributes synonymous.

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Because if these words are to have
any meaning, and we're going to

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say that divine providence is also what
eternal, because he's going to say that

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all of these are also eternal,
then how does God have divine providence as

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a pure actual as a pure act
Remember there's not a capacity, there's there's

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no first actuality in God and tomism. Providence has to be actualized as an

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attribute, just as much as glory
or love is actualized, right because God

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is pure act act as purists,
and the problem is that he's that eternally

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and so when we start listing different
types of attributes. This goes back to

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the area in debate with Saint Athanasius
and the Arians the power of creating.

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He's basically going to end up saying
that the power of creating is an eternal

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capacity, but it only is realized
in the temporal effects. But God has

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no capacities, and he says,
yes, correct, God has no capacities.

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All God's powers are realized because he
believes in pure act God is pure

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acts. So if he's pure act
there's no potentiality, there's no capacities that

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are not actualized, and hence God
does not have first actuality. God is

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pure second actuality, which is pure
error, gone, pure work, pure

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act Right do we see so far
how this is working out? So I'm

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going to start pressing him on,
well, how can all of these be

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synonymous and eternal? And then you're
going to start restricting certain attributes to in

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the divine mind. But if it's
in the divine mind, then he doesn't

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actualize all the potentialities are all all
the possible worlds. Now, there's capacities

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in God. And they'll say no, no, it doesn't work because there's

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also imminence and transient and there's imminent
acts and transitive acts. But as we're

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going to say that, to talk
about imminent actions and transitive actions transient actions

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is not actually going to work either, because the divine ideas do not,

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according to Quinas, relate to act
in the same way as transient act does.

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In fact, the divine ideas are
just as eternal and necessary as everything

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else in God. And so if
the divine will is equivalent to the divine

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essence, and is also equivalent to
eternity, and is also equivalent to necessity,

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which you will say, is God's
a necessary being, and God's attributes

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are also necessary, then the action
of creating is necessary, which he says,

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yes, but not in the effect. That's bypassing the issue. The

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question was not do you think the
effects are temporal? The question was the

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act itself, the power of creating, to act to create. I know

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that you think creation is temporal,
but I'm asking about the action of creating,

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which is not the same thing as
the eternal manifestation of glory or love,

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because one pertains to the created order
and is relevant only to creation.

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On that mind and then and the
second foundation is the foundation on the part

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of our intellect. So then we
actually consider the object, that thing which

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has the virtue or character presents itself, that actually presents itself, And now

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mind captures that distinction. And so
the first foundation is in the thing itself

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and in the case of God,
the divine necess and the second foundation is

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on the part of our intellect,
which is unable to grasp the simple,

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single, simple entity by one concept, so has to consider it by various

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concepts. I think that's enough.
Yeah, And so none of that is

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even controversial in regards to what Thomasm
teaches, and it's what I've always said,

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Thomas teach right. But by the
way, God is not an absolutely

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simple, single being. God is
a triad, and he's known as triad.

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God exists in the mode of triad, not in the mode of absolutely

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simple monad. And anybody who knows
the Cappadocians, and I mean the Trinitarian

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theology of their communical counsels, would
know that everything that he just stated there

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about God is completely foreign to the
Cappadocians and the way that they go about

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Trinitarian theology. I have a question
on that. So, when you're describing

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the minor virtual and you said that
the foundation in regard to the abtributes in

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the thing itself, that it really
is some type of distinction that looks to

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impose itself on our minds, And
I'm what exactly is the nature of the

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distinction itself in that in your view? Make sure if the distinction you mean

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bitter is his real or between say, providence and divine glory. Oh okay,

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so between your providence and divine glory
there exists and minor virtual distinction,

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right, but yeah, which which
has a foundation? The thing is said,

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But there's a distinction God which has
no foundation. And that's and he

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says, which does have a basis
in the thing itself. That's what I'm

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concerned with that phrase, because the
argument is that in minor virtual distinctions they're

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only conceptual. Well, if they're
only conceptual, there's not actually a justification

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for claiming that. But it also
has a basis in the thing itself,

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because you don't actually know that these
attributes match up to anything in the thing

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itself. I know you're saying that. I know you believe it on the

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basis of cause and effect. I
know that. But the point is that

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if all of these attributes are synonymous, then you don't really have a conception

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of what they are in terms of
their definitions. So providence is not actually

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in reality different from glory, it's
only different in our conceptions. And if

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that's the case, then you can
total all of these up and make them

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come possible, and they don't tell
you anything at all because they're interchangeable.

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They don't necessarily match up to the
being that is describing. That's Palomas's critique

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against Barlam in the debate with the
Barlamon. So I'm well aware that you

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believe that these are minor virtual distinctions, and I'm well aware that you think

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in human conception that we can talk
about these in different ways, but it's

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not addressing the actual question of how
do you know that that matches up to

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anything in God? Because all you
know these things by are created effects.

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In Tomism, all you know when
it comes to providence, glory, divine

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love is the created effect that signifies
something quote grounded in that being beyond the

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veil of the created effects. But
how do you know, other than to

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just restate Tomaism that love or glory
is actually telling you something about God?

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You don't. That's why Paloma says
this leads to atheism because there's no direct

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participation and real experience of the energies
of love and glory. Remember in tomaism,

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you are only experiencing various created effects. And if they are various created

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effects which signify these realities, they're
not actually realities plural they are a different

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mode of being, which is a
pure, single spiritual monad that does not

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bear a similarity to the multiplicity of
attributes. So wait a minute. If

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it doesn't bear that similarity similarity,
how do we know it. Oh,

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because the effect bears a similarity to
the cause. But that's just restating what's

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00:38:21.280 --> 00:38:22.880
in question. How do you know
that the effect bears a similarity to the

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00:38:22.920 --> 00:38:25.960
cause. Oh, well, that's
what Thomas says. You see, that's

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what Aristotle says. Yeah, but
I'm challenging on this view how you would

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00:38:31.320 --> 00:38:37.840
know that. You can assert that, but you've also asserted that the motive

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existence of the divine essence does not
correspond to this multiplicity reality. Furthermore,

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we go back to the modal collapse
question about creating, and I'm going to

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keep pressing him on this show,
and you'll see how he answers that.

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Well, you'll see how he doesn't
answer it in action. So, for

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example, God's knowledge, God's acts
of knowing have no our only purely mentally

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sting right as God's knowledge and vil
I understand that, yeah, yeah,

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because that's that would be required by
actors purist right, Yeah, because you

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don't believe that God has so the
humans have the power. Right. So

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00:39:16.519 --> 00:39:21.599
do we see that I'm agreeing when
he states the temas position, So I've

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00:39:21.679 --> 00:39:24.760
understood the temas position. Yeah,
yeah, so we agree. I mean,

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00:39:24.760 --> 00:39:29.199
I agree that I understand that your
position holds that. Let's go back

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00:39:29.280 --> 00:39:31.320
though to that minor virtual because what
I'm what I'm trying to understand from you

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00:39:31.639 --> 00:39:37.760
is sure what exactly you said?
There is a foundation in the thing itself?

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00:39:37.559 --> 00:39:40.079
Yeah, and you listed two things. The third the first thing I

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00:39:40.159 --> 00:39:45.239
heard you say was it it looks
to impose that on our minds, and

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then secondly our mind captures it.
So remember without assuming an analogia. But

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remember God's essence, right, is
not like creatures. How do we know

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that the analogue loggia holds to the
divine essence? Well, and if you

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00:40:05.760 --> 00:40:09.400
read Whipple, Whipple starts to give
different examples from a quinas to show that

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00:40:10.000 --> 00:40:15.159
there's a similarity between the cause and
the effect. He says, though there's

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00:40:15.199 --> 00:40:17.880
a divine ideas, and then he
says, there's the principle that every effect

327
00:40:19.039 --> 00:40:22.440
bears some similarity to its origin and
to its cause. We wait a minute,

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that's the thing in question, though, Now in the created order,

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I guess that might make sense.
A son gives rise to a father gives

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00:40:30.840 --> 00:40:36.400
rise to a son. Human being
bears some analogy or some there's some similarity

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00:40:36.480 --> 00:40:40.480
between those two temporal causes. But
in the way that Tomasm describes God's essence,

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it is not like creatures. It
is not temporal, It is not

333
00:40:47.360 --> 00:40:52.199
changeable, it is not passable,
it is not composed, it is not

334
00:40:52.320 --> 00:40:57.280
acted upon, etcetera, etcetera,
etcetera. And so every way that it's

335
00:40:57.320 --> 00:41:02.840
cashed out is actually opposite the created
reality. So the question is, then,

336
00:41:02.960 --> 00:41:07.320
if tomism is consistent with its view
of simplicity, on what basis is

337
00:41:07.360 --> 00:41:15.000
there a similarity or an analogia between
the creative principle of love and the divine

338
00:41:15.199 --> 00:41:21.400
essence is love because love is the
divine essence And Thomas, what is the

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00:41:21.480 --> 00:41:27.280
reality? Oh, it's an analogia. Okay, so you're saying there's analogy,

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00:41:28.280 --> 00:41:31.760
but the way that you've cashed out
divine simplicity and divine essence doesn't seem

341
00:41:31.800 --> 00:41:37.039
to allow for analogy, because the
mode of divine essence is not at all

342
00:41:37.159 --> 00:41:44.440
like creatures and their multiplicity. So
when you call these different names, you're

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00:41:44.519 --> 00:41:50.239
basically saying nothing about what's behind the
created causal veil. It's a very simple

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00:41:50.280 --> 00:41:52.960
objection. I don't understand why Tomas
have such a propt with this, and

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00:41:52.079 --> 00:41:59.679
their answer is to just repeat tomism
that every effect has a similarity to its

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00:41:59.719 --> 00:42:02.239
cause. Every effect And it's like, I know you claim that, but

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we want to know the argument to
prove that. Well, it's just self

348
00:42:06.719 --> 00:42:10.880
oathernent principle. Arosols better physics a
self otheran principal. So you cite Ariostole

349
00:42:12.039 --> 00:42:15.239
as the source exactly, But the
question is, how do we know Aerostol

350
00:42:15.360 --> 00:42:17.480
is right about it? Maybe it
is right. I'm not saying it's wrong.

351
00:42:19.760 --> 00:42:22.320
I actually do believe in the principle
of cause and effect and that yeah,

352
00:42:22.519 --> 00:42:27.320
an effect bears a similarity to its
cause. But you can't move from

353
00:42:27.559 --> 00:42:31.119
the created order of the similarity between
a son and a father and then just

354
00:42:31.280 --> 00:42:37.239
assume that, oh, well that
holds in the uncreated supernatural realm as well.

355
00:42:37.760 --> 00:42:39.239
I mean, on what basis does
that hold? How do you know

356
00:42:39.440 --> 00:42:45.719
because every way that you've cashed out
God's attributes accent, simplicity, and Tomism

357
00:42:45.480 --> 00:42:50.599
is opposite creatures. Well, if
God has cashed out opposite creatures, and

358
00:42:50.679 --> 00:42:58.880
I argue that he is intemism,
how is their end? The loggia and

359
00:42:59.000 --> 00:43:04.840
all of these arguments presuppose anialgiin now
in the Orthodox view, because the divine

360
00:43:04.960 --> 00:43:07.440
essence is not like creatures, bears
no similarity to creatures. As Paul says

361
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in Acts seventeen, how do we
have the ability to predicate of God?

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Well, Basil answers that, and
Basil says that the energies come down to

363
00:43:16.280 --> 00:43:22.440
us. And it's not just energies
that are conceptual categories that allow us to

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00:43:22.559 --> 00:43:27.239
name God. It's the same energy
that Dionysius talks about that we participate in.

365
00:43:28.599 --> 00:43:34.079
They're not created realities. Divine glory
is not a creature. When Jesus

366
00:43:34.079 --> 00:43:36.920
said in John seventeen that he would
make us partakers of the glory that he

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00:43:37.000 --> 00:43:39.159
had with the Father before the foundation
of the world, that's not a created

368
00:43:39.199 --> 00:43:45.239
reality. It's an uncreated reality.
The Eucharist conveys to us uncreated grace and

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energy. Tomism and Rome Catholicism do
not believe that, and it's consistent with

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00:43:52.400 --> 00:43:55.679
their position on the attributes, because
it's not just a question of how do

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00:43:55.800 --> 00:44:00.440
we list these attributes and conceive them
as systematic theology in our mind, it's

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00:44:00.480 --> 00:44:06.440
a question of what are we participating
in? Are we participating in uncreated glory

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or a supernatural accident in the soul, as Little God says, as Roman

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00:44:09.599 --> 00:44:15.800
Callagdogma says. So the Roman Calic
position is that grace is a supernatural creature

375
00:44:15.880 --> 00:44:19.599
in the soul. So these are
not just questions of God's relation to the

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00:44:19.679 --> 00:44:24.360
created order. There are questions of
grace and salvation. And Roman Catholicism teaches

377
00:44:24.400 --> 00:44:32.719
that grace strictly speaking, what you're
participating in is it created reality. But

378
00:44:32.840 --> 00:44:37.480
what is the nature of the distinction
quad distinction the thing? And what is

379
00:44:37.519 --> 00:44:43.159
that distinction that's that is in the
object? In the object, So you

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00:44:43.159 --> 00:44:46.119
would see that the real virtual distinction
is a real distinction, not in the

381
00:44:46.920 --> 00:44:51.480
minor virtual What is the what is
that? Yeah, I'm a destriving minor

382
00:44:51.559 --> 00:44:57.159
ritual minor virtual distinction is a real
distinction because it's exists in the thing itself.

383
00:44:57.679 --> 00:45:00.599
What is the nature of that distinction. Yeah, yeah, he's asserting

384
00:45:00.679 --> 00:45:04.000
that. I want to know how
he knows that. How can he actually

385
00:45:04.119 --> 00:45:07.440
say these things? Right? I
know that's the Tumbus position. We understand

386
00:45:07.480 --> 00:45:12.840
that that the attributes are minor virtual
distinctions. I'm going to explain that it's

387
00:45:12.920 --> 00:45:17.679
real listening in the thing it'sself,
but it's not true as having diverse realities

388
00:45:17.800 --> 00:45:22.159
contained in it. But yeah,
which we already know. So he's again

389
00:45:22.280 --> 00:45:25.760
just stating the thumbs position that in
God providence, glory and love are not

390
00:45:25.880 --> 00:45:31.039
actually distinct, They're only distinct in
our conception. So so it's not okay,

391
00:45:31.360 --> 00:45:37.280
So so it's not a diverse reality, so it's not. Yeah,

392
00:45:37.360 --> 00:45:42.920
of course, minor virtual is essentially
still conceptual. But you're saying that it

393
00:45:43.039 --> 00:45:46.239
has a basis in the thing itself, but you can't but what is the

394
00:45:46.320 --> 00:45:51.760
name? What is the basis in
the thing itself? Yeah, the basis

395
00:45:51.960 --> 00:45:55.440
is its eminent simplicity, which,
oh, but wait a minute, So

396
00:45:55.599 --> 00:46:05.719
the basis for the multiple attributes multiple
at is the imminent simplicity. Imminent simplicity

397
00:46:05.880 --> 00:46:12.079
is not like the diversity of the
attributes, is it? So the thing

398
00:46:12.199 --> 00:46:15.039
that I've asked him for the basis. You're saying that it does have an

399
00:46:15.079 --> 00:46:20.559
origin in God. It does have
an the many attributes has some point of

400
00:46:20.639 --> 00:46:27.840
origin actually in God. But that
point of origin is a radical simplicity that

401
00:46:28.039 --> 00:46:30.880
is not like creatures and is not
like distinct things. Because in Tomasm,

402
00:46:30.960 --> 00:46:38.840
distinction entails composition and division. So
I'm asking him a very precise question about

403
00:46:38.880 --> 00:46:44.679
Wait a minute, you've said that
there is some basis in the thing itself,

404
00:46:44.760 --> 00:46:50.000
in God for these distinctions. I
ask him what is it? He

405
00:46:50.159 --> 00:46:54.519
says, the simplicity of God.
That doesn't answer the question. Do you

406
00:46:54.599 --> 00:47:00.719
see that the simplicity of God is
not like the many things we're listing here,

407
00:47:00.159 --> 00:47:04.960
So it's not grounded in that thing. And then he'll just start saying,

408
00:47:05.079 --> 00:47:07.480
but it is, and let me
define more Tomism for you. Okay,

409
00:47:07.519 --> 00:47:14.239
So simplicity, though, is not
a basis for distinction. Yeah.

410
00:47:14.320 --> 00:47:17.280
Yeah, The basis is in the
divine is which is simple. It contains

411
00:47:17.320 --> 00:47:22.119
all these perfections. Oh wait a
minute, the divine essence, which is

412
00:47:22.199 --> 00:47:27.960
simple, contains these perfections plural.
But the perfections plural are not actually in

413
00:47:28.079 --> 00:47:30.639
the thing. Those are in our
mind. So now he's going back and

414
00:47:30.719 --> 00:47:34.440
forth again. You see it.
So first he said the basis was the

415
00:47:34.519 --> 00:47:38.960
absolute simplicity of God. Now he's
saying it's the perfections plural, but it's

416
00:47:39.000 --> 00:47:43.199
it can't be both, and he
knows that. The question I'm asking is,

417
00:47:43.880 --> 00:47:52.199
you're predicating multiplicity to something that contains
no multiplicity. And you've already said

418
00:47:52.239 --> 00:47:57.159
that that multiplicity only applies in human
conception. But you said that it is

419
00:47:57.320 --> 00:48:00.960
grounded in the thing. So saying
that it's the thing basically amounts to saying

420
00:48:01.079 --> 00:48:07.400
nothing, you see sist. Those
perfections have a different object to formal concepts.

421
00:48:08.360 --> 00:48:12.880
They cannot be identified in concept with
each other. So there's a foundation

422
00:48:12.960 --> 00:48:15.679
that things. I understand, so, but you said, but you said

423
00:48:16.159 --> 00:48:20.719
so. Then he just goes back
back to restating that they're not identical in

424
00:48:20.800 --> 00:48:24.199
human conception. We know that.
We've always known that. I've been saying

425
00:48:24.280 --> 00:48:29.400
that for fifteen freaking years since I
left a stupid system, And he just

426
00:48:29.559 --> 00:48:31.719
reached again. You're gonna notice all
these people who thought there was some big

427
00:48:31.760 --> 00:48:36.880
own, Oh you got owned today. The whole discussion is this. It's

428
00:48:36.920 --> 00:48:42.360
a big bugaboo of nothing and nothing
ever getting answered. Now I give him

429
00:48:42.360 --> 00:48:45.119
credit just in the fact that in
the first ten to fifteen minutes, we're

430
00:48:45.199 --> 00:48:51.159
basically just agreeing on what Thomism says. So I give him credit for just

431
00:48:51.840 --> 00:48:55.079
accurately saying Tomism. That's great.
Finally, finally we have Thomas. He's

432
00:48:55.119 --> 00:48:59.519
not the only one, but finally
we have Thomas who are accurately presenting Tomism.

433
00:49:00.199 --> 00:49:04.159
What do we see? We are
agreeing on what Tomasm says all the

434
00:49:04.199 --> 00:49:09.760
way up until about maybe fifteen minutes
in. So that means that I've accurately

435
00:49:09.800 --> 00:49:16.199
been saying what Thomas em says.
I'm at lied about Tomaism. You might

436
00:49:16.320 --> 00:49:21.400
disagree with me, but I'm not
intentionally trying to mis represent Thomas. I

437
00:49:21.440 --> 00:49:23.719
actually have. These are the reasons
why I don't believe the system anymore.

438
00:49:23.760 --> 00:49:27.920
I quit believing it. I mean, there's many reasons, these are some

439
00:49:27.960 --> 00:49:34.000
of the key reasons. So I
keep pressing specific questions and they will not

440
00:49:34.119 --> 00:49:37.760
be answered. You see, you'll
see that in the thing itself there is

441
00:49:37.840 --> 00:49:40.880
a basis for the distinction. But
by basis, you're saying the basis is

442
00:49:40.960 --> 00:49:45.039
in our head virtually right. No, No, there's a two fold basis

443
00:49:45.119 --> 00:49:49.400
in the thing itself and in our
online What is the nature of the base.

444
00:49:49.760 --> 00:49:52.440
What is the nature of the basis
of the thing itself? What is

445
00:49:52.480 --> 00:49:57.480
the nature of the distinction that he
says it's grounded in the thing, and

446
00:49:57.599 --> 00:50:00.280
it impresses upon our mind. Our
mind tries to grasp it. That's the

447
00:50:00.360 --> 00:50:04.599
twofold basis. We understand, that's
the position. And this is every discussion

448
00:50:04.639 --> 00:50:08.199
with A Thomas. Everything just comes
back to them restating the position twenty thirty

449
00:50:08.280 --> 00:50:13.239
times. So when I leave,
it's not because he stumped me. It's

450
00:50:13.320 --> 00:50:17.199
because the same question goes on for
the After about the fifteen minute mark,

451
00:50:19.039 --> 00:50:22.719
it gets asked about three or four
times, and since it's not going anywhere,

452
00:50:22.719 --> 00:50:25.000
and he just keeps introducing things that
don't answer the objection, I just

453
00:50:25.199 --> 00:50:29.599
left. But I didn't just leave
because of that. I left because he

454
00:50:29.719 --> 00:50:35.320
got all butt hurt when I said
that the conversation was BS. I didn't

455
00:50:35.320 --> 00:50:37.719
say he was bullshit. I said
the conversation is And then he acted like

456
00:50:37.840 --> 00:50:40.719
he was all, Oh, you
cushion at me, you hood my feeling.

457
00:50:42.280 --> 00:50:49.119
Here are the here's the crusaders right
with his with this uh not testosterone

458
00:50:49.119 --> 00:50:52.039
based voice that he has of the
distinction in itself and the thing itself.

459
00:50:53.079 --> 00:50:58.760
I just told you what it's.
It's yeah, it's the power the champ

460
00:50:58.800 --> 00:51:02.719
present itself to them. So I
asked him for the basis of the multiplicity

461
00:51:04.199 --> 00:51:06.840
that he says is grounded in the
thing, which is not really in the

462
00:51:06.920 --> 00:51:09.800
thing. The distinctions are not really
in God. Between the attributes, I

463
00:51:09.880 --> 00:51:13.840
said, what is the basis for
that? The power that it has to

464
00:51:13.960 --> 00:51:19.840
press to present thisself to our minds, that is not a grounding. That's

465
00:51:19.920 --> 00:51:22.920
just restating what you think it does
in this causal scheme of cause and effect.

466
00:51:27.559 --> 00:51:32.679
It's a causal relation of the created
effects impressing upon our mind some similarity

467
00:51:32.800 --> 00:51:43.800
to God as the cause. But
it's not addressing the objection that how do

468
00:51:43.880 --> 00:51:46.480
you know? And on what basis
is it grounded in the thing? You're

469
00:51:46.519 --> 00:51:52.960
just stating that. And at no
point in this discussion, as it keeps,

470
00:51:52.039 --> 00:51:55.119
the can will keep getting kicked down
the road, at no point will

471
00:51:55.199 --> 00:52:01.519
the objections that I'm giving your actual
arguments that if then if you believe this,

472
00:52:01.960 --> 00:52:06.280
then you should believe this. How
do you? Oh? Thomasm says

473
00:52:06.360 --> 00:52:09.320
this, Yeah, I know what
your position says. Address the objection.

474
00:52:12.000 --> 00:52:15.719
That's the power, that's that's something
directed towards us, and you're saying that

475
00:52:15.800 --> 00:52:17.920
it's in the thing itself. So
this amounts to not not any kind of

476
00:52:17.960 --> 00:52:23.719
distinction. He's going to repeat that
it's a conceptual distinction. I know that

477
00:52:24.760 --> 00:52:29.840
the point is that it's not telling
us anything. It's not telling us anything.

478
00:52:29.880 --> 00:52:32.559
To say that, well, it
just there's a power in the thing

479
00:52:32.639 --> 00:52:38.159
that impresses upon us. Yeah,
but the power and the thing is singular.

480
00:52:38.719 --> 00:52:45.519
Power is singular. These are plural, So the pluralities are not.

481
00:52:45.719 --> 00:52:52.039
Actually, when we define these words
love, glory, providence, the meanings

482
00:52:52.079 --> 00:52:58.440
of those words is not synonymous,
are they Can everyone understand this, Love

483
00:52:58.599 --> 00:53:01.239
and glory and providence are not defined
in the same way there, They have

484
00:53:01.400 --> 00:53:06.719
different definitions. So if the definitions
of those words are going to actually tell

485
00:53:06.800 --> 00:53:13.000
us anything, they cannot be referring
to something that is totally unlike that multiple

486
00:53:13.119 --> 00:53:17.320
reality. Well, it's not totally
unlike that. There's an analogia. That's

487
00:53:17.360 --> 00:53:21.079
the thing that's in question. How
do you know there's an analog gear without

488
00:53:21.079 --> 00:53:24.480
just asserting it. And all of
tomism, all of classical foundationalism, all

489
00:53:24.519 --> 00:53:30.559
of this recitilient stuff is just based
on those assertions that it is so,

490
00:53:31.559 --> 00:53:36.079
and Father Deacon has a great paper
where he points out that how do we

491
00:53:36.199 --> 00:53:38.559
know that it's I mean, we
understand that you're asserting these things, and

492
00:53:38.679 --> 00:53:49.000
this is Palomas's objection to Barlan.
Yeah, not so it's not a distinction

493
00:53:49.079 --> 00:53:52.159
at all. No, it's a
virtual distinction. I'm telling you that it's

494
00:53:52.159 --> 00:53:58.400
not any distinction sense that you haven't. Yeah, that's not real by in

495
00:53:58.480 --> 00:54:00.920
this, in the sense of when
we delineate the attributes themselves. I know

496
00:54:01.000 --> 00:54:04.480
what the position is. That's what
I've always said the position is. So

497
00:54:04.840 --> 00:54:09.000
the question then is would you then
say that divine glory is identical to divine

498
00:54:09.039 --> 00:54:16.559
providence. It's identical materially enough formally
well, so wait, in God there's

499
00:54:16.639 --> 00:54:22.679
material and formal distinctions. No,
material and formal distinction is basically identity that

500
00:54:22.760 --> 00:54:28.920
works and everything mad and everything.
But hold on, material we're talking about

501
00:54:28.960 --> 00:54:32.119
in God? Yeah, you can
go matter informed did not apply to God

502
00:54:32.280 --> 00:54:37.559
materiality inform matter. So he's avoiding
he's beginning to avoid where I'm going with

503
00:54:37.719 --> 00:54:42.079
us. Of course, So there's
a material identity in God, which means

504
00:54:42.159 --> 00:54:47.440
that identity in reality, but there's
not a formal identity meaning them So there's

505
00:54:47.480 --> 00:54:52.960
a there's a conceptual distinction between divine
glory and divine providence, but in reality,

506
00:54:54.159 --> 00:54:59.159
in reality as a material identity is
they're not right, That's what I'm

507
00:54:59.239 --> 00:55:04.519
in. If you said that,
then you're wrong, But you're right.

508
00:55:04.760 --> 00:55:13.719
Yep. Yeah. Are they both
eternal? The providence and glory? Providence

509
00:55:14.159 --> 00:55:16.679
in so far as it's considered as
an act of intellection and milition, yes,

510
00:55:16.840 --> 00:55:24.440
insofar as it's concerned. Start introducing
the distinction between something that's purely a

511
00:55:24.519 --> 00:55:30.559
divine intellectual intellection versus something that's an
actualized thing. But the problem is that

512
00:55:30.840 --> 00:55:36.400
that's not what providence and the divine
idea is equate to. Right, there's

513
00:55:36.440 --> 00:55:40.280
no such thing as God having capacities
or things in his mind that he doesn't

514
00:55:40.320 --> 00:55:45.599
realize, because the divine ideas are
synonymous with the divine essence. And I'll

515
00:55:45.599 --> 00:55:50.440
show you that in the in the
Semihar in a second execution. Oh so

516
00:55:50.920 --> 00:55:57.199
God has not actualized all these capacities. No, Look, so did you

517
00:55:57.239 --> 00:56:01.239
hear what he said there? Did
you catch that? There is in the

518
00:56:01.320 --> 00:56:08.119
divine mind providence as an intellection,
but he does not necessarily execute divine providence.

519
00:56:08.280 --> 00:56:12.719
Now wait a minute, but providence
is a divine operation. It's not

520
00:56:12.840 --> 00:56:15.760
a purely intellectual operation. Right,
It's an attribute that he just said was

521
00:56:15.800 --> 00:56:20.920
synonymous with these other attributes. But
now he wants to introduce a distinction between

522
00:56:22.960 --> 00:56:28.719
operations or actions that are imminent in
God that are not equivalent to the external

523
00:56:29.079 --> 00:56:35.679
effect or actualization. But that's bypassing
and avoiding what the question is. The

524
00:56:35.800 --> 00:56:39.440
question is about the energy operation,
the operation, or the attribute itself,

525
00:56:40.679 --> 00:56:46.280
and you can't have in the divine
mind capacities that are unrealized. But that's

526
00:56:46.320 --> 00:56:50.400
why I'm gonna start asking him questions
about, well, wait a minute,

527
00:56:50.440 --> 00:56:54.920
does God know about worlds that he
didn't create? And he'll say yes,

528
00:56:55.639 --> 00:57:00.360
and then I'll point out that,
well, those should be actualized in there's

529
00:57:00.400 --> 00:57:05.199
a capacity which is not actualized.
God could have created a world without Thomas

530
00:57:05.280 --> 00:57:07.920
Aquinas and he didn't do that.
That's a potentiality. It's a capacity that

531
00:57:08.000 --> 00:57:12.599
he didn't that he didn't. Actually, there's all kinds of capacities, and

532
00:57:12.679 --> 00:57:17.119
so this is why we believe that
God can possess first and second actuality.

533
00:57:17.400 --> 00:57:22.280
But his position, as he will
say as a Thomas, is that no,

534
00:57:22.480 --> 00:57:27.960
God is only second actuality. Do
you understand what first and second actuality

535
00:57:28.119 --> 00:57:37.880
is. First actuality is a potentiality, a capacity to engage an activity that

536
00:57:37.079 --> 00:57:43.599
is then the corresponding second actuality.
Second actuality is the exercise of a function

537
00:57:43.679 --> 00:57:47.519
and air gone a work, and
the first actuality is the capacity or the

538
00:57:47.599 --> 00:57:53.519
disposition to exercise that function. Bradshaw
uses example that you might be familiar with

539
00:57:53.800 --> 00:58:00.519
of I have the ability, for
example, to let's say, ride a

540
00:58:00.559 --> 00:58:07.760
bike, speak Spanish, and play
guitar and do a live shame. I

541
00:58:07.920 --> 00:58:13.000
have those capacities, those powers,
but I'm not necessarily actualizing all of those

542
00:58:13.039 --> 00:58:19.400
powers at once. For the thomast
in God, God does not possess first

543
00:58:19.480 --> 00:58:24.280
actuality because he cannot have any potentia, he cannot have any capacities that are

544
00:58:24.320 --> 00:58:29.039
not actualized realized, because he has
act as pure as pure act right.

545
00:58:30.320 --> 00:58:34.760
So God is strictly speaking as he
will say, second actuality. And they

546
00:58:34.880 --> 00:58:37.960
think that it has to be that
way because otherwise God is not perfect.

547
00:58:38.280 --> 00:58:42.360
That's the only way that God could
be perfect and have all the perfections.

548
00:58:42.400 --> 00:58:45.320
And doctor bo Branson is some great
talks critiquing and getting into a lot of

549
00:58:45.360 --> 00:58:52.800
these ideas of perfection in the middle
ages, and how it's kind of tied

550
00:58:52.840 --> 00:58:57.480
up into presuppositions of metaphysics and metaphysical
systems that are not necessarily justified. We

551
00:58:57.519 --> 00:59:01.920
don't know necessarily that all of the
Thomas metaphysics crib from Aristotle is necessarily the

552
00:59:02.000 --> 00:59:05.840
case. That's why they're all foundationalists. And they just said, well,

553
00:59:05.880 --> 00:59:08.480
it's self evidence. All the metaphysical
things are first principles and they're self evident.

554
00:59:08.760 --> 00:59:14.480
Then we'll build our theology on top
of that. You know, the

555
00:59:14.559 --> 00:59:17.960
Trinity is first, Triad is first. That's why John Damascus begins his systematic

556
00:59:19.000 --> 00:59:24.719
theology with the triad. So remember, first, actuality is capacity that's not

557
00:59:25.000 --> 00:59:34.559
necessarily engaged. And so I might
will to ride my bike or to do

558
00:59:34.760 --> 00:59:37.719
something else. That's because I'm a
being with free will. I'm not.

559
00:59:37.880 --> 00:59:42.440
There's nothing about me that necessitates that
I actualize all of my capacities, or

560
00:59:42.440 --> 00:59:47.239
all my potentialities, my all of
my abilities. Right. They think that

561
00:59:47.480 --> 00:59:52.119
if we say that about God,
we're implying that God is imperfect and he's

562
00:59:52.159 --> 00:59:54.280
like a creature. Well, now, wait a minute, you believe in

563
00:59:54.280 --> 00:59:58.320
analyogists, so in certain ways he
is like creatures. Supposedly, according to

564
00:59:58.360 --> 01:00:00.360
you, but no, we believe
that he he's like creatures also in the

565
01:00:00.440 --> 01:00:06.239
ability to will or not to will, and the fact that he didn't actualize

566
01:00:06.280 --> 01:00:10.400
all the possible worlds that he has
knowledge of shows that there is capacity in

567
01:00:10.480 --> 01:00:17.440
God. There is first actuality in
God. He did not do the thing

568
01:00:17.519 --> 01:00:22.159
that he could do. And when
I bring this up, you're going to

569
01:00:22.199 --> 01:00:25.800
see that he doesn't actually address this
critique or this question. He agrees with

570
01:00:25.920 --> 01:00:31.039
me that in the temus view,
God is only second actuality, pure act

571
01:00:34.039 --> 01:00:37.719
But when I press him on what
that should mean, what that should lead

572
01:00:37.800 --> 01:00:45.239
him to, what that implies,
He restates things and uses analogies comparable to

573
01:00:45.360 --> 01:00:49.280
the analogies that I gave, which
don't actually help his case. As you'll

574
01:00:49.320 --> 01:00:52.239
see, God there's always in second
act The only thing that begins to exist

575
01:00:52.360 --> 01:00:59.440
is the effect. God is always
second act, second actuality. That's exactly

576
01:00:59.519 --> 01:01:01.280
what you just heard me say.
So you guys can see I'm not misrepresenting

577
01:01:01.280 --> 01:01:07.760
anybody's position. That's what we've been
saying for years. All right, we're

578
01:01:07.800 --> 01:01:12.119
all in the same page here.
He says God is only second actuality.

579
01:01:13.320 --> 01:01:23.239
That means that there are no unrealized
capacities potentialities. All potentialities must be realize

580
01:01:23.360 --> 01:01:27.880
or actualized. So I just start
asking him various questions about things that God

581
01:01:27.920 --> 01:01:30.679
didn't do which you could do,
and then he'll say no. But there's

582
01:01:31.119 --> 01:01:37.000
internal actions in God versus external causal
effects. So you see everything is cashed

583
01:01:37.039 --> 01:01:45.639
out as the cause and effects scheme, right, But the questions are constantly

584
01:01:45.679 --> 01:01:50.079
about not just that you're just assuming
that it's a twofold diatic scheme of cause

585
01:01:50.119 --> 01:01:57.360
and effect God world, right.
The questions are about the specific attributes and

586
01:01:57.480 --> 01:02:06.000
actions themselves create the power of creating. Qua creating which you identify as in

587
01:02:06.119 --> 01:02:13.840
your system has to be identical to
second act. Providence, love, glory

588
01:02:13.920 --> 01:02:16.360
are all identicals to second act?
And what is he gonna say when I

589
01:02:16.519 --> 01:02:21.639
when I raise that objection, He's
simply going to make a distinction between the

590
01:02:21.719 --> 01:02:28.320
created effects and the uncreated cause,
the pure act. That's not addressing the

591
01:02:28.400 --> 01:02:34.000
objection. I know that you believe
that, but it's it's it's bypassing.

592
01:02:34.039 --> 01:02:38.199
It's missing the argument for the people
in the chat. We're gonna open it

593
01:02:38.280 --> 01:02:42.199
up here in a minute. There's
not much more to this, but there's

594
01:02:42.280 --> 01:02:45.320
a couple of maybe two more minutes. But yeah, we don't have a

595
01:02:45.400 --> 01:02:50.599
problem saying that, whether it's palamass
I've got the book right here. If

596
01:02:50.639 --> 01:02:53.719
you look at Maximus is two hundred
chapters. When he calls God pure act,

597
01:02:54.000 --> 01:02:57.119
he's not saying the divine essence is
pure act. In fact, the

598
01:02:57.119 --> 01:03:00.199
first five pages of this book say
that we can call God pure act in

599
01:03:00.320 --> 01:03:07.320
his essence. We call God pure
act in contrast to creation. So unlike

600
01:03:07.480 --> 01:03:13.840
creatures, right, God is not
composed of parts. God is not a

601
01:03:13.960 --> 01:03:20.000
material being. God is not in
time. God is not changeable. He

602
01:03:20.079 --> 01:03:23.920
doesn't undergo change in his essence.
He's impassable. Right. Those are the

603
01:03:24.000 --> 01:03:28.440
things that Maximus says that we can
say about God in contrast to creatures.

604
01:03:29.760 --> 01:03:32.159
Maximus also says that, however,
when we call God pure act, it

605
01:03:32.320 --> 01:03:35.840
is not a statement of what he
is in his essence, and he is

606
01:03:35.920 --> 01:03:40.079
not reducible to that. The very
five pages of this are an explicit rejection

607
01:03:40.239 --> 01:03:46.280
of saying that essence and act are
the same in God. The two hundred

608
01:03:46.320 --> 01:03:51.559
chapters, first five pages literally says
that. And why am I saying that

609
01:03:51.559 --> 01:03:53.800
about Maximus, Because that's the word
our position. It's the exact same thing

610
01:03:54.000 --> 01:03:58.559
that we say. So when John
Damascus says we can talk about God is

611
01:03:58.559 --> 01:04:01.679
pure act, he says it in
trastic creatures. He's not saying that that's

612
01:04:01.760 --> 01:04:08.760
the definition or what the identity of
the divine essences. So Thomas take the

613
01:04:08.880 --> 01:04:12.960
statements about God's true act, which
we agree with, and they say that

614
01:04:13.159 --> 01:04:17.639
God's essence is reducible to that.
That's an identity thesis view. Peter Lombard

615
01:04:17.760 --> 01:04:24.000
the identity thesis view. God is
reducible to the predicates that you say of

616
01:04:24.119 --> 01:04:30.119
him, but he actualizes all capacities, meaning that he has meaning that there's

617
01:04:30.159 --> 01:04:34.280
no distinction between first and second act
and God in your view, what do

618
01:04:34.400 --> 01:04:38.639
you mean by for sen second dact? Because whatever he just agreed, God

619
01:04:38.719 --> 01:04:41.119
is second act. So he knows
what I mean by first and second act

620
01:04:41.519 --> 01:04:44.519
means what you just said, But
it's always you said, He's always in

621
01:04:44.559 --> 01:04:48.679
second actuality. Yeah, first actuality
is at second actuality is the actual So

622
01:04:49.119 --> 01:04:53.199
I asked him that he already said
it, and then he agreed with it.

623
01:04:53.360 --> 01:04:55.199
But he says, what do you
mean by that? He knows what

624
01:04:55.320 --> 01:05:00.920
I means first and second act to
sure? Sure? So act is active

625
01:05:00.960 --> 01:05:06.239
power? Right right? Yeah?
Right? Kind of capacity. Yeah sure,

626
01:05:06.440 --> 01:05:12.159
yeah, sure sure. So the
second act is action ractualization of death

627
01:05:12.239 --> 01:05:17.679
act. So first act is a
capacity. Second act is the actuality corresponding

628
01:05:17.760 --> 01:05:24.280
to capacity. You see. So
that's the difference between me actually riding the

629
01:05:24.320 --> 01:05:28.760
bike and me having the capacity or
the power to ride the bike. Right,

630
01:05:28.880 --> 01:05:33.800
Donna miss actual power actuality first act, second act, second act is

631
01:05:33.880 --> 01:05:42.440
the work the air gone. In
the Roman calittimistic scheme, God is strictly

632
01:05:42.880 --> 01:05:48.800
and solely defined as pure act second
act. Do we need to read phaser

633
01:05:48.920 --> 01:05:55.320
for you, guys? But it's
not even This isn't controversial. God is

634
01:05:55.320 --> 01:06:03.159
absolutely pure act with no let's read
phase. Turning to the divisions of act

635
01:06:03.199 --> 01:06:08.159
or actuality, the first distinction is
between a pure act and a mixed act.

636
01:06:08.719 --> 01:06:14.719
Act as purists or act utterly unmixed
with any potential. Is the core

637
01:06:14.840 --> 01:06:18.280
philosophy of the scholastic conception of God. Everything else is act in some way

638
01:06:18.760 --> 01:06:27.760
mixed with potency. Only God is
pure act with no potency. And so

639
01:06:27.960 --> 01:06:32.239
he goes on to talk about combining
these senses as an expay is forty one.

640
01:06:34.000 --> 01:06:38.519
This is what we mean by doing
amiss right and a Greek Combining these

641
01:06:39.039 --> 01:06:43.079
senses. A man's having a substantial
form a rational animal is first actuality.

642
01:06:43.679 --> 01:06:47.559
Is having the power of speech is
second actuality relative to that first actuality.

643
01:06:47.760 --> 01:06:51.159
Having the power of speech, however, itself, is first actuality if it's

644
01:06:51.239 --> 01:06:56.079
relative to the actual exercise of that
power. So I might have the ability

645
01:06:56.119 --> 01:07:01.039
to speak, that's first act When
I speak right now, that's second act

646
01:07:01.119 --> 01:07:08.079
I'm actualizing a capacity of power that
I have. Roman Catholicism does not believe

647
01:07:08.880 --> 01:07:13.400
that God possesses first actuality because they
think that that would mean God's a creature,

648
01:07:13.800 --> 01:07:17.039
imperfect and so forth. We believe
that for God to have free will,

649
01:07:18.280 --> 01:07:24.480
he must have that as well.
God does not have to exercise all

650
01:07:24.599 --> 01:07:28.840
of his powers or all of his
abilities, and in fact, every time

651
01:07:28.880 --> 01:07:31.480
he does a specific action in history, and by the way, the divine

652
01:07:31.599 --> 01:07:35.199
energies actually are in history when it's
Christ walking on water, that's a divine

653
01:07:35.400 --> 01:07:39.639
energy and action in history and time
and space. Roman Caloics don't think that

654
01:07:39.760 --> 01:07:44.079
divine divinity can actually be in time
and space, so they don't actually consistently

655
01:07:44.159 --> 01:07:47.760
believe in the incarnation. Because if
God is strictly speaking, pure act then

656
01:07:47.840 --> 01:07:53.079
the second hypostasis, the second person
of Godhead can't actually be in time and

657
01:07:53.159 --> 01:08:00.000
space doing different actions. You see
their act as purists would compromise the reality

658
01:08:00.079 --> 01:08:03.480
of the incarnation, and it actually
does. Now. If I were to

659
01:08:03.519 --> 01:08:06.519
say that to it Thomas, the
first thing they would say is, we

660
01:08:06.719 --> 01:08:10.880
believe in the incarnation. Thomas believes
that the second person, the Trinity,

661
01:08:10.920 --> 01:08:15.679
became incarnate. I know that the
objection is not do you believe that the

662
01:08:15.760 --> 01:08:18.279
objection is is it consistent with what
you've already said? This is a different

663
01:08:18.359 --> 01:08:24.760
argument, And you tell them that
blows past them. They're just going to

664
01:08:24.880 --> 01:08:29.079
recite to you what Thomas's position is
about the incarnation, which we agree with.

665
01:08:29.239 --> 01:08:32.399
Yeah, we agree the second hypostasis
became incarnate. What we're saying is

666
01:08:32.439 --> 01:08:38.720
that if God is reducible to pure
act, and his actions aren't reducible to

667
01:08:38.840 --> 01:08:45.079
pure act, and they're only conceptually
distinct, then Jesus walking on water is

668
01:08:45.119 --> 01:08:50.920
only conceptually distinct from the conflagration.
That's dumb. Clearly, the creating of

669
01:08:50.960 --> 01:08:56.479
the world is a divine power and
action that is not purely a created effect.

670
01:08:57.600 --> 01:09:01.840
The power of creating is not created. The power of creating is not

671
01:09:02.000 --> 01:09:06.640
a created effect. But in their
system it is because everything collapses into the

672
01:09:06.760 --> 01:09:15.439
twofold scheme of God's cause created effect. But the power of creating itself is

673
01:09:15.520 --> 01:09:20.720
not an effect. It's something God
possesses. And God didn't have to create

674
01:09:20.800 --> 01:09:29.319
the world. So God had the
capacity to create the world and chose to

675
01:09:29.479 --> 01:09:34.239
create the world first actuality, second
actuality. And as we progress through this

676
01:09:34.319 --> 01:09:41.039
conversation, he will consistently attempt to
give analogies, an attempt to say things

677
01:09:41.920 --> 01:09:47.039
that try to allow for God willing
certain realities to come to be, certain

678
01:09:47.079 --> 01:09:55.359
things to come to be. But
that's not consistent with defining God as only

679
01:09:55.520 --> 01:10:00.880
second act And we've been hammering this
for so long, and all he does

680
01:10:00.000 --> 01:10:04.079
is keep stating other Tomastic views and
positions to try to make it work.

681
01:10:04.920 --> 01:10:10.800
Right, pure, Yeah, exactly
right. So I'm glad that he agreed

682
01:10:10.840 --> 01:10:13.359
that pure actual means God's will.
The reasons say from that, right,

683
01:10:13.560 --> 01:10:15.159
we agree that. Okay, I
don't, that's not my position, but

684
01:10:15.600 --> 01:10:28.880
that's no I know, that's what
I understand the Tomust position to it.

685
01:10:28.920 --> 01:10:30.880
It's not controversial. We've all we've
been saying this whole Well, yes,

686
01:10:31.159 --> 01:10:38.800
so there's no no unactualized capacities in
God, right, yeah, because up

687
01:10:39.479 --> 01:10:45.680
there we go, there's no unactualized
capacities. And when I start talking about

688
01:10:46.439 --> 01:10:51.560
specific things that only makes sense in
regard to the created order. He will

689
01:10:51.600 --> 01:10:58.560
attempt to introduce a distinction between the
mental conception in God, in the divine

690
01:10:58.600 --> 01:11:06.279
mind of the created order, and
the internal mental providence and the execution of

691
01:11:06.359 --> 01:11:13.359
that at extra. That's not what
providence is. And by the way,

692
01:11:13.479 --> 01:11:18.680
there's not actually a distinction at intra
at extra if God is reducible to pure

693
01:11:18.720 --> 01:11:21.880
act. You see. In other
words, it just keeps begging the question

694
01:11:23.640 --> 01:11:26.800
because if you say, well,
God's reducible to pure act, but there

695
01:11:26.840 --> 01:11:30.039
are imminent divine ideas by which he
can choose to create this or that,

696
01:11:30.680 --> 01:11:35.079
that's not consistent with what he just
said. He just said God is second

697
01:11:35.119 --> 01:11:40.560
act with no unrealized capacities, and
that's where he really begins to shoot himself

698
01:11:40.560 --> 01:11:44.920
in the foot. He would be
imperfect Niste. Yeah, yeah, okay,

699
01:11:45.319 --> 01:11:50.760
So divine providence is not eternally actualized, or is it? Insofar as

700
01:11:50.840 --> 01:11:56.279
it is an intitative act. It's
always eternal in so far as there's an

701
01:11:56.359 --> 01:12:00.840
execution of effect. Notes. So
now he's introduced to inction that divine providence

702
01:12:01.560 --> 01:12:09.000
is an imminent, intative act,
but it's not executed forever. So now

703
01:12:09.079 --> 01:12:14.079
he's introduced two types of acts in
God, acts that actually externally cause their

704
01:12:14.079 --> 01:12:20.600
effect and acts that are internal and
intaitive in God. Right, But remember,

705
01:12:21.479 --> 01:12:25.960
how are we actually having all these
different types of distinctions in God?

706
01:12:26.560 --> 01:12:34.319
That all of the naming ultimately comes
from predicates that are not actually matching up

707
01:12:34.399 --> 01:12:39.880
to the referent because when we talk
about providence, school or or love or

708
01:12:39.960 --> 01:12:44.680
the power of creating, those are
only virtually in our mind. If they

709
01:12:44.760 --> 01:12:47.640
were consistent, I could go on
to say that, but the same way

710
01:12:47.680 --> 01:12:50.720
that you know that the persons are
distinct is the same way that you know

711
01:12:50.840 --> 01:12:56.159
the attributes. So you don't really
have a basis to say that the distinction

712
01:12:56.239 --> 01:13:03.800
between the persons is a major,
real distinction versus minor virtual distinctions of attributes.

713
01:13:04.119 --> 01:13:11.079
You can claim that, but you're
introducing all of these levels into God,

714
01:13:11.239 --> 01:13:15.840
which in reality don't exist in God
unless we assume your system in your

715
01:13:15.840 --> 01:13:19.520
position. But that's the thing in
question. And so the same methodology by

716
01:13:19.560 --> 01:13:28.079
which he's going to say that the
divine attributes signify a synonymous reality in the

717
01:13:28.159 --> 01:13:31.199
thing itself, but in our minds
are multiple. I can turn that around

718
01:13:31.279 --> 01:13:35.039
and say, why wouldn't it be
the same thing for the divine persons.

719
01:13:35.279 --> 01:13:40.359
I know that you believe there's a
major real attribute. I'm just getting you

720
01:13:40.600 --> 01:13:45.359
to try to tell me on what
basis should I accept that you have an

721
01:13:45.439 --> 01:13:53.119
actual adjudication between major real and minor
virtual. Do you understand that this is

722
01:13:53.159 --> 01:13:56.760
just begging the question to introduce another
type of distinction. Oh well, but

723
01:13:56.840 --> 01:14:00.039
there's these these well they're not really
in God except for the major real ones.

724
01:14:00.359 --> 01:14:03.640
You see, it's just question begging. So you can layer on all

725
01:14:03.680 --> 01:14:08.239
of these different scholastic distinctions. But
remember, at the base of it,

726
01:14:08.319 --> 01:14:11.800
all of these are known in the
same way, which is by created analogia.

727
01:14:14.760 --> 01:14:17.039
But how do we know that the
created analogia when we predicate about the

728
01:14:17.159 --> 01:14:26.960
major really accurately matches up to the
persons, versus when we do the minor

729
01:14:27.079 --> 01:14:31.039
virtual that it doesn't actually match up
in reality? You see, it's all

730
01:14:31.279 --> 01:14:35.399
arbitrary. That's why I will start
saying to him that the more distinctions that

731
01:14:35.479 --> 01:14:42.279
attacks on are arbitrary, and all
he will ever do is just state the

732
01:14:42.359 --> 01:14:45.479
thumbus position over and over and over. And remember, now we've got other

733
01:14:45.640 --> 01:14:56.920
levels of distinctions, major minor.
So remember we've got major minor, begging

734
01:14:57.000 --> 01:15:02.800
the question that major and minor.
Wait a minute, how do I know

735
01:15:02.920 --> 01:15:11.159
that that matches up? Because this
is major and minor are actually the supercategory,

736
01:15:11.840 --> 01:15:18.279
or the more fundamental category by which
to parse out names that apply that

737
01:15:18.359 --> 01:15:26.840
are minor virtual and names that apply
that are major real like hypostases. Do

738
01:15:26.920 --> 01:15:31.960
you understand that to keep stacking on
these distinctions. I know he thinks that

739
01:15:32.079 --> 01:15:36.720
that's helping the system work, but
all it's really doing is piling on more

740
01:15:38.960 --> 01:15:43.199
question begging, kicking the can down
the road problems. And he they never

741
01:15:43.399 --> 01:15:46.720
get what you're asking. They never
get this objection. And then when you

742
01:15:46.800 --> 01:15:50.560
say you're not addressing the objection,
he'll say, I am addressing it by

743
01:15:50.640 --> 01:15:57.239
giving you more tomistic distinctions. But
the distinctions beg the question, and aren't

744
01:15:57.239 --> 01:16:05.680
ask answering my objection, which is
very specifically and very precisely that the twofold

745
01:16:05.720 --> 01:16:13.640
distinction between major and minor itself is
the presupposition that you can't justify. How

746
01:16:13.680 --> 01:16:15.159
do we know that you actually have
the right list between the two, And

747
01:16:15.239 --> 01:16:18.680
god, well, it must be
by a necessity and because I conside Aristotle

748
01:16:18.680 --> 01:16:24.840
blah blah blah blah blah. Oh, how can you have the action of

749
01:16:24.920 --> 01:16:30.079
divine providence but there's no execution of
that act? Sure, so let me

750
01:16:30.119 --> 01:16:33.039
give you an example of creation which
will make it easier. So we have

751
01:16:33.159 --> 01:16:39.159
creation. You believe that creation,
consider it as an act? So he

752
01:16:39.279 --> 01:16:43.479
will define creation by what. By
the way, again, you're notice how

753
01:16:43.520 --> 01:16:48.239
he's not going to answer the objection
because my question was divine providence or the

754
01:16:48.319 --> 01:16:53.000
action of create, the act of
creating. I'm asking about that itself,

755
01:16:54.119 --> 01:16:57.720
and he's just gonna say, well, the cause is eternal God, the

756
01:16:57.800 --> 01:17:00.359
effect is temporal creation. No,
no, that's not the question. That

757
01:17:00.560 --> 01:17:05.239
is eternal so God never began.
That's that's not true. Yeah. No,

758
01:17:05.479 --> 01:17:11.520
I'm seeing my position right, And
I'm saying that that's not biblical theology

759
01:17:12.960 --> 01:17:15.640
because I'm saying that if you're considered
that it would lead to eternal creation,

760
01:17:15.680 --> 01:17:19.359
it would lead to the originous position. Okay, you can't think that,

761
01:17:19.479 --> 01:17:24.119
and I'm disagreeing. I'm just laying
out my position. I thought you were

762
01:17:24.159 --> 01:17:29.800
here to lay out to our position. I'm listening, Okay, So creative

763
01:17:29.840 --> 01:17:36.319
action considered as an action is eternal. Considered in its termination is created.

764
01:17:36.359 --> 01:17:43.920
Action considered in its action is eternal. Notice he said that creative action in

765
01:17:44.000 --> 01:17:48.319
God. Okay, how does God
act to create? But it doesn't eternally

766
01:17:48.359 --> 01:17:54.880
affect that action? Yeah? Sure
so, because God's alitional agent. Remember

767
01:17:56.640 --> 01:18:05.319
creative acting, the action to create
is eternal. And what you're going to

768
01:18:05.439 --> 01:18:13.079
notice is that as he fleshes this
out, the words themselves no longer have

769
01:18:13.319 --> 01:18:21.119
the meaning that they mean, right, because he's going to bypass the actual

770
01:18:21.199 --> 01:18:26.119
meaning of the word. The action
to create is eternal. That's an eternal

771
01:18:26.159 --> 01:18:29.600
action according to him, and it
has to be if God is defined as

772
01:18:30.640 --> 01:18:38.359
second actuality. And then he'll say
that the termination of this eternal act is

773
01:18:39.079 --> 01:18:54.479
temporal creation finite. So that's just
the creaturely effect. But now wait a

774
01:18:54.520 --> 01:19:01.439
minute. Do you notice what's happened
here? And this is the only reason

775
01:19:01.479 --> 01:19:04.720
they're doing this is because they want
to try to believe in creation. X

776
01:19:04.840 --> 01:19:10.119
nelo. I understand Roman Catholics in
Thomas that you, like us, we

777
01:19:10.239 --> 01:19:14.880
all affirm creation, x nelo.
The problem is that this is not consistent.

778
01:19:15.279 --> 01:19:18.000
I know you believe this in creation, x neilo, but you just

779
01:19:18.119 --> 01:19:24.359
said that the action to create is
eternal. If this word has any meaning,

780
01:19:24.960 --> 01:19:30.039
if it's an eternal action, then
what comes forth, what it corresponds

781
01:19:30.119 --> 01:19:33.239
to, must also be eternal or
else this no longer has meaning. And

782
01:19:33.359 --> 01:19:36.479
actually, in Thomasm the words,
as we begin to see, they lose

783
01:19:36.520 --> 01:19:43.079
their meaning. This doesn't actually mean
this anymore because it's all cashed out in

784
01:19:43.159 --> 01:19:46.439
the twofold scheme of cause and effect, eternal cause, created effect. We're

785
01:19:46.520 --> 01:19:50.479
not asking do you believe in a
created effect? We're asking on what basis

786
01:19:50.600 --> 01:19:57.520
is it consistent to say that the
effect is created in temporal when the action

787
01:19:57.720 --> 01:20:00.439
is not created in temporal. And
he's going to say that the mine will,

788
01:20:00.359 --> 01:20:05.239
but the divine will is just as
eternal and necessary as this as he

789
01:20:05.359 --> 01:20:10.840
will say, and that's why I
keep saying. Then therefore it doesn't answer

790
01:20:10.880 --> 01:20:15.800
the objection, and he just keeps
restating it. And volitional agent determines not

791
01:20:15.960 --> 01:20:18.800
only the conditions of the effect,
but also it's time. So because God

792
01:20:18.920 --> 01:20:23.960
is a volitional agent. Yeah,
I know you believe that there's a divine

793
01:20:24.039 --> 01:20:27.079
will. I'm not asking you if
you believe that, I'm asking you how

794
01:20:27.159 --> 01:20:32.199
it's consistent that there's an eternal action
of creation, but the effect is temporal

795
01:20:33.560 --> 01:20:38.520
because God only wills it to be
temporal. Then this does not mean what

796
01:20:38.680 --> 01:20:43.159
you think of me is Now there's
a distinction between the eternal actions in God,

797
01:20:43.920 --> 01:20:47.119
which are from all eternity, and
the actions that he exercises towards the

798
01:20:47.199 --> 01:20:51.720
created order, which are not eternal, namely the power of creating. Now,

799
01:20:51.800 --> 01:20:57.680
why do you think Roman Catholics,
as Palamas said to barleyam God wrested

800
01:20:57.840 --> 01:21:00.960
from his works on the seventh day? Does that sound like the power of

801
01:21:01.039 --> 01:21:09.479
creating is an eternal action? So
you don't actually believe God rested from his

802
01:21:09.600 --> 01:21:11.880
works on the seventh day. And
if you read Augustine, because of his

803
01:21:11.960 --> 01:21:21.960
neo Platinian platinus neo Platonic doctrine of
the monad in confessions, he struggles with

804
01:21:23.079 --> 01:21:27.640
this. He says, I don't
understand how we could say God rests from

805
01:21:27.800 --> 01:21:31.720
his act of creating on the seventh
day. God rested. That means he

806
01:21:31.880 --> 01:21:38.279
did not continue the act of creating. And all they ever do to answer

807
01:21:38.359 --> 01:21:42.079
this objection it's and it's not an
answer is to say the effects are temporal

808
01:21:42.119 --> 01:21:45.399
and created. I know that we
know that's your position, man, But

809
01:21:45.520 --> 01:21:48.359
it's not answering the objection, and
you'll see that it doesn't. So God's

810
01:21:48.359 --> 01:21:51.479
from only turn into you ill,
is that this effect takes place like let's

811
01:21:51.479 --> 01:21:55.800
see in two thousand. Yeah,
but you're just now he's saying that God's

812
01:21:56.039 --> 01:22:04.279
will imposes that the eternal act of
creating is only a temporal effect. That's

813
01:22:04.319 --> 01:22:11.119
nonsense. Now you've introduced new layers
of distinctions which don't match up. And

814
01:22:11.159 --> 01:22:14.600
I hope Father Deacons able to come
on here in a little bit because we're

815
01:22:14.600 --> 01:22:17.119
almost getting to the end here.
That's not answering the question. That's just

816
01:22:17.239 --> 01:22:20.680
stating the difference between eternity and time, and that you think that there's cause

817
01:22:20.720 --> 01:22:26.520
and effect. I'm asking how it's
possible in the metaphysical scheme to be consistent

818
01:22:27.119 --> 01:22:32.119
to say that there's an eternal realization
of providence that doesn't have an eternal corresponding.

819
01:22:33.039 --> 01:22:38.319
What corresponds to that? So the
effect should be just as eternal as

820
01:22:38.399 --> 01:22:40.720
the cause. And their answer is
that, well, God doesn't will it

821
01:22:40.840 --> 01:22:44.720
to be. Yeah, but God's
will is identical to his essence. God's

822
01:22:44.720 --> 01:22:50.359
will is identical to his eternity.
God's will is identical to Providence in their

823
01:22:50.479 --> 01:22:58.680
view. No, no, dislets
your confusing realization in so far, I

824
01:22:58.760 --> 01:23:01.520
know you make that distinction, but
it doesn't because now providence doesn't make any

825
01:23:01.600 --> 01:23:05.880
sense because you've equated providence with divine
glory and all these other attributes. So

826
01:23:06.000 --> 01:23:13.159
again, remember he wants a different
meaning for the creative power, but he's

827
01:23:13.239 --> 01:23:17.239
also defined the creative power as identical
to the other attributes like glory and love.

828
01:23:17.359 --> 01:23:21.760
Remember that they're only conceptually distinct.
Well, they're only conceptually distinct.

829
01:23:21.800 --> 01:23:25.640
Then they really don't do us any
good because we don't know if it's actually

830
01:23:25.720 --> 01:23:30.199
matching up to the thing itself,
and the prior distinction itself has to be

831
01:23:30.359 --> 01:23:34.199
true to know if you can distinguish
major real and minor virtual. Father de

832
01:23:34.239 --> 01:23:36.039
you can. I hope you're hearing
this and that you can comment on this

833
01:23:36.119 --> 01:23:40.399
in a minute. Okay, okay, So you think that God did until

834
01:23:40.479 --> 01:23:45.720
he'sn't have a plan before creating.
Now he's switching it over to the divine

835
01:23:45.800 --> 01:23:48.239
plan for the created order, which, yeah, we all believe that God

836
01:23:48.319 --> 01:23:54.800
has in the divine mind, the
divine ideas. This is why Saint Maximus

837
01:23:54.880 --> 01:23:59.560
calls them the thought wills and they
are not the divine essence. Saint or

838
01:23:59.640 --> 01:24:03.600
Thomas Aquinas believes that divine ideas are
the divine essence, and that is right

839
01:24:03.720 --> 01:24:10.319
here in Suma question first one part
first part, Question fifteen. I'll give

840
01:24:10.359 --> 01:24:13.600
it in the chat for you.
Right here you can see that for a

841
01:24:13.680 --> 01:24:18.239
Quainas, the divine ideas are absolutely
identical to and synonymous with the divine essence.

842
01:24:18.239 --> 01:24:24.279
So the divine ideas are actually in
that category that we mentioned earlier of

843
01:24:24.399 --> 01:24:30.279
the major of the minor virtual distinct
distinction. Again, just assuming that we

844
01:24:30.399 --> 01:24:39.000
know that that's actually correct, right, the divine ideas are also part of

845
01:24:39.079 --> 01:24:44.880
that category of things in God.
Notice we're basically drawing out a giant algorithm

846
01:24:44.960 --> 01:24:48.760
and list of planes and levels of
existence in God, which Pallemism does as

847
01:24:48.800 --> 01:24:54.159
well. But their system is saying
that, well, these a lot.

848
01:24:54.479 --> 01:24:59.319
Really this is all just deriving from
human conceptual distinctions from analogia. Yeah,

849
01:24:59.399 --> 01:25:02.800
exactly, so that it's not actually
corresponding to realities in the thing itself,

850
01:25:02.920 --> 01:25:08.600
which he's already admitted. And so
if that's the case, then what he

851
01:25:08.720 --> 01:25:11.600
just said, we don't even know
if that holds up, because it's another

852
01:25:11.720 --> 01:25:14.159
layer and level of distinction within God. And he's gonna tack on another one

853
01:25:14.159 --> 01:25:19.520
here in a minute. The plan
is not identical to the execution in your

854
01:25:19.720 --> 01:25:27.119
exact In his system, the plan, the divine ideas are the divine essence.

855
01:25:28.399 --> 01:25:30.680
Thomas says it right there for you
in that Suma, in that section.

856
01:25:38.960 --> 01:25:43.840
And it must be held that the
divine ideas are many. But again

857
01:25:43.920 --> 01:25:46.960
they're many as they impose themselves upon
us. They're not many actually in the

858
01:25:47.039 --> 01:25:53.640
Divine essence though so therefore, every
creature has his own species, and in

859
01:25:53.720 --> 01:25:58.159
likeness of degree to the divine essence, God knows his essence, and thereby

860
01:25:58.239 --> 01:26:02.159
knows himself. By knowing his essence, the divine essence contains all of the

861
01:26:02.279 --> 01:26:15.359
divine ideas. And by the way, Whipple in his book on the Suma,

862
01:26:15.119 --> 01:26:21.560
uses this as one of the arguments
for why there is analogia. But

863
01:26:21.680 --> 01:26:26.239
again, remember it doesn't work to
just say that, well, well,

864
01:26:26.680 --> 01:26:30.760
there's analogia between creatures and God because
of the divine ideas. Right that's Thomas

865
01:26:30.840 --> 01:26:34.720
says that in that section. Okay, but how do we know that that's

866
01:26:34.760 --> 01:26:39.439
the case? You see, because
remember the mode of existence of the divine

867
01:26:39.479 --> 01:26:43.520
ideas in the divine essence is not
like creatures, but it's supposed to be

868
01:26:43.600 --> 01:26:46.039
the blueprint and the pattern of the
creatures. Well, creatures are really many.

869
01:26:46.159 --> 01:26:49.159
Did you notice that? Do you
notice that creatures are actually many?

870
01:26:51.920 --> 01:26:58.359
They're not one? And so what
their answer is that? Well, in

871
01:26:58.479 --> 01:27:03.239
the divine mind, the mode of
the existence, the divine ideas might seem

872
01:27:03.319 --> 01:27:06.000
to us to be many, but
it is actually one, and it is

873
01:27:06.079 --> 01:27:10.399
the divine essence. Oh okay,
then the divine ideas, which are the

874
01:27:10.479 --> 01:27:15.119
patterns for the created order, are
necessary and eternal. Therefore creation is necessary

875
01:27:15.159 --> 01:27:23.239
and eternal. This is a Platonius
turn. Do we see this? I

876
01:27:23.359 --> 01:27:30.159
know that you don't believe creation is
a necessary emanation. I'm saying that you

877
01:27:30.239 --> 01:27:32.199
should say that if you were consistent, because you don't have the essence inery

878
01:27:32.239 --> 01:27:39.000
distinction. It's not execution. But
that's why you need a distinction between essence

879
01:27:39.000 --> 01:27:45.479
and energy. No, it's a
distinction of action and effect action. You

880
01:27:45.640 --> 01:27:49.600
know. Remember now he's made a
new distinct. So the action to create

881
01:27:49.840 --> 01:27:58.199
is eternal, the effect is temporal. So God is eternally acting to create,

882
01:27:58.960 --> 01:28:04.800
but willing that it only be temporal. Do you see that that doesn't

883
01:28:04.840 --> 01:28:09.600
match up, it doesn't work.
And remember that the action to create is

884
01:28:09.680 --> 01:28:16.920
synonymous with glory and eternality and it's
necessary. Remember he said that the attributes

885
01:28:16.960 --> 01:28:20.680
are necessary, and he classed this
attribute amongst them, the power creating,

886
01:28:20.760 --> 01:28:26.319
because you've already defined the action of
the buying, providence and creation as eternal.

887
01:28:26.840 --> 01:28:30.640
Therefore the effect must be eternal as
an act, not as an effect.

888
01:28:30.800 --> 01:28:36.560
That considered as an act, God
is eternally creating, but the effect

889
01:28:36.640 --> 01:28:44.119
is temporal. I'm saying that's inconsistent
the action. How does God eternally act

890
01:28:44.199 --> 01:28:49.159
to create but there's not an eternal
corresponding effect of that? Okay, are

891
01:28:49.199 --> 01:28:55.159
you done? Yeah? So I
remember God has no unrealized capacities, there's

892
01:28:55.199 --> 01:28:59.960
no first act. God is pure
second act. If God's is God's messence

893
01:29:00.079 --> 01:29:04.680
necessary? Yeah, God's assness is
necessary. Okay. So remember now he's

894
01:29:05.039 --> 01:29:14.119
going even further into exactly what I
hope they would say. So let's list

895
01:29:14.199 --> 01:29:26.279
these attributes or these and these powers
creating, glory, love, providence.

896
01:29:30.479 --> 01:29:45.760
All are necessary, All are necessary? Is there the other attributes necessary?

897
01:29:46.640 --> 01:29:50.880
Every ever we want to attributes are
necessary? So every attribute of God and

898
01:29:50.960 --> 01:29:57.800
power of God is necessary creating glory, love, providence, which are all

899
01:29:57.880 --> 01:30:04.479
in reality synonymous, our nest necessary. How is that a God who creates

900
01:30:04.800 --> 01:30:09.399
by free will. I'm not asking
you if you contradict yourself tomist and then

901
01:30:09.439 --> 01:30:13.640
turn around and believe in free will. I'm pointing out that that's not consistent.

902
01:30:13.920 --> 01:30:16.439
You see two different arguments. I
don't need you to tell me in

903
01:30:16.520 --> 01:30:19.960
fifty other places that Aquaintas believes in
creation Nextnilo. We all know that,

904
01:30:21.199 --> 01:30:26.720
and that's why we keep saying that
you're not addressing the objection. The objection

905
01:30:26.840 --> 01:30:30.880
is that it's inconsistent to talk about
creation by free will. We know you

906
01:30:30.960 --> 01:30:42.279
believe that creating, glory, love, providence all are necessary. Creating is

907
01:30:42.399 --> 01:30:46.880
necessary. If it's necessary, then
it's not by God's free will that he

908
01:30:47.000 --> 01:30:51.279
created. But everybody confesses that God
freely created the world and not out of

909
01:30:51.319 --> 01:30:55.119
any necessity. So you see where
he's beginning to go with this, and

910
01:30:55.159 --> 01:31:00.560
he's he's just going to keep tacking
on more other Tomistic positions which don't address

911
01:31:00.199 --> 01:31:04.239
the objection. Creating is necessary,
Can ansider it as an act on the

912
01:31:04.279 --> 01:31:10.720
part of God, be called it
initatively necessary, primitively streets So now there's

913
01:31:10.800 --> 01:31:15.640
different a new distinction. So intitatively
it's necessary, but not in its effect

914
01:31:15.039 --> 01:31:30.960
in its terminus. Right, so
we have inentitative versus the terminus another distinction,

915
01:31:30.279 --> 01:31:33.640
right. And I'm not mad that
he's going to make these distinctions.

916
01:31:34.239 --> 01:31:38.399
But my point is just that you
can pile on all the distinctions you want

917
01:31:39.079 --> 01:31:45.039
between entitative and the creative effect or
what the what it terminates in this is

918
01:31:45.119 --> 01:31:48.680
just another layer of something that we
don't know that that's justified, you see.

919
01:31:50.680 --> 01:31:56.479
So it's just piling on more distinctions
that aren't addressing the objection. So

920
01:31:56.560 --> 01:32:03.159
it's fine that you believe all those
things we understand, but how do you

921
01:32:03.319 --> 01:32:10.199
know that? I mean, is
the entitative versus the the transitive and the

922
01:32:10.279 --> 01:32:14.079
termative and all this that you're later
going to talk about. How much categories

923
01:32:14.079 --> 01:32:19.079
does that fit into? Are those
major real? Are they minor? Virtual?

924
01:32:20.039 --> 01:32:29.439
Distinctions? In gone that's o no, no, no, no,

925
01:32:29.600 --> 01:32:33.279
no, yes, it is explain
why you're just all you do is interjective

926
01:32:33.279 --> 01:32:39.439
distinction. No distinction is inconsistent because
that's if you don't want to hear our

927
01:32:39.479 --> 01:32:42.479
positioned And why yet no, I
understand that's the tumb of position. The

928
01:32:42.520 --> 01:32:46.600
distinctions are just intended to try to
rescue the position from necessary creation. Right,

929
01:32:46.720 --> 01:32:50.000
that's what he's trying to rescue.
It's ad hoc rescue. And so

930
01:32:50.119 --> 01:32:53.600
you just come up with the distinction. Oh, well, the effect is

931
01:32:53.640 --> 01:32:57.079
created, but the action is eternal. Well, then the action doesn't.

932
01:32:57.199 --> 01:33:02.279
The meaning of that action no longer
has any meaning. Eternal creating but temporal

933
01:33:02.319 --> 01:33:06.520
effect. Why because God wills it
to be that way. Yeah, but

934
01:33:06.560 --> 01:33:12.319
the divine will is synonymous with the
drine essence, and both are necessary.

935
01:33:12.720 --> 01:33:15.000
Therefore creation's necessari And I've always understood
that when I left it understood that's a

936
01:33:15.039 --> 01:33:19.880
position. And I'm saying that's inconsistent. You're just saying that. You're just

937
01:33:19.960 --> 01:33:25.079
saying, but the effect is created. You have a created effect of an

938
01:33:25.159 --> 01:33:30.680
eternal action. Yeah, the action
should just be the effect should be as

939
01:33:30.720 --> 01:33:35.119
eternal as the act. No.
Otherwise, the words creating a providence mean

940
01:33:35.239 --> 01:33:41.039
nothing, They don't make any sense. That only follows if the action you

941
01:33:41.119 --> 01:33:45.039
have to go okay, okay,
okay, that can only fall. Yeah,

942
01:33:45.079 --> 01:33:46.640
I agree that if there's an eternal
action, there has to be an

943
01:33:46.680 --> 01:33:50.600
eternal effect if the action is transient, But if you don't believe it.

944
01:33:53.199 --> 01:33:59.119
But here we have another distinction that
he's going to try to draw between imminent

945
01:33:59.199 --> 01:34:03.279
acts and trent acts or transitive acts. Right. So, and we're gonna

946
01:34:03.279 --> 01:34:08.880
see once again that how do we
know that this distinction holds? And he's

947
01:34:08.880 --> 01:34:13.560
gonna draw analogies from guess what,
creation And the analogy that he's going to

948
01:34:13.640 --> 01:34:16.199
give is very similar to Bradshaw's analogy. Right, the creation is a transitent

949
01:34:16.239 --> 01:34:20.359
intection within them and intection. So
because the tin of theemin intection remains in

950
01:34:20.439 --> 01:34:27.039
the criminals of the emin intection is
intrinsic action and there's no need for defect

951
01:34:27.039 --> 01:34:30.479
to be positive in them and intection, you don't need to have any trinal

952
01:34:30.520 --> 01:34:35.960
effect. Yeah, but creating is
not an internal imminent action in God.

953
01:34:38.399 --> 01:34:42.199
That's what's under dispute here. And
so he's trying to retreat into the vine

954
01:34:42.319 --> 01:34:45.000
ideas that God has a plan for
the creative order. That's not addressing the

955
01:34:45.119 --> 01:34:49.199
question. The question is not you
can't escape it by saying that this is

956
01:34:49.239 --> 01:34:55.199
an imminent action, right, because
imminent action is not in the direct category

957
01:34:55.279 --> 01:35:00.159
of action. The second actions are
called transitory action or transit actions. Right.

958
01:35:02.039 --> 01:35:06.159
And if you look this up,
if you look into tomistic and Scholastic

959
01:35:06.199 --> 01:35:13.680
theology. It doesn't rescue the objection
because, first of all, imminent activity

960
01:35:13.760 --> 01:35:16.880
in God is synonymous with the divine
essence and is necessary. So even if

961
01:35:16.920 --> 01:35:21.199
he tries to say this, it
doesn't do anything for him. It's just

962
01:35:21.680 --> 01:35:27.840
introducing another distinction to have God thinking
about and knowing the divine plan of the

963
01:35:27.880 --> 01:35:31.600
creative order versus God willing to exercise
that. And that's why I'm going to

964
01:35:31.600 --> 01:35:38.760
ask him. Yeah, but doesn't
God have in his mind the knowledge up

965
01:35:38.760 --> 01:35:43.079
doesn't even know all the possible worlds, and yet he doesn't actualize all of

966
01:35:43.119 --> 01:35:46.479
them. So there's capacity in God
in the case of transing detection because transingtection

967
01:35:46.600 --> 01:35:50.920
necessarily proceeds from the agent to the
patient. So if there's a transing pation,

968
01:35:51.039 --> 01:35:57.239
now you've introduced a new distinction into
God. Right, Yeah, of

969
01:35:57.359 --> 01:36:03.079
course there's transient So he's introducing a
distinction to get around the objection by saying

970
01:36:03.119 --> 01:36:09.880
that there's imminent action in God and
transient action that refers to the receiver of

971
01:36:10.399 --> 01:36:15.279
the agent's action. Right, But
this is all just questioning acts and there's

972
01:36:15.319 --> 01:36:16.760
eternal acts. What are transit acts? No? No, no, no,

973
01:36:17.560 --> 01:36:23.600
you believe that thought's action. So
first let me define two. Yeah,

974
01:36:23.680 --> 01:36:26.560
okay, I'm going to explain it. So the emin intaction, as

975
01:36:26.600 --> 01:36:30.159
theirs thought explains in Metaphysics Books None, chapter eight, the emin intactions and

976
01:36:30.279 --> 01:36:34.840
action whose terminus is in the agents. He gives the example of acts of

977
01:36:34.960 --> 01:36:43.960
new Ingaenville, and Venue. Again, this doesn't work for God and the

978
01:36:44.039 --> 01:36:48.439
created order because the point is that
the divine ideas in the Divine mind are

979
01:36:48.600 --> 01:36:55.680
eternal and are just as necessary as
the divine nature because they're identified to the

980
01:36:56.000 --> 01:36:59.159
in the divine Do you understand that
they're identical to the divine essence, The

981
01:36:59.239 --> 01:37:03.279
divine plan the create order is identical
to the divine essence. Therefore, if

982
01:37:03.279 --> 01:37:10.159
they're identicals, then they're also necessary. Therefore, the plan of the created

983
01:37:10.279 --> 01:37:17.479
order necessitates an eternal creation that comes
forth. So the originists and even Aristotle

984
01:37:17.560 --> 01:37:23.039
on this point are more consistent because
if you're saying that God is an eternal,

985
01:37:23.199 --> 01:37:27.840
for example, actualizer, there must
be something that he actualizes other than

986
01:37:27.920 --> 01:37:33.399
himself. Right. If God has
an eternal, necessary created order, then

987
01:37:33.479 --> 01:37:39.319
he must exercise that. And he's
already said the action of creating is eternal.

988
01:37:40.279 --> 01:37:45.600
But they're saying, but the terminus, they're saying that the effect is

989
01:37:45.680 --> 01:37:49.920
temporal. We know that, and
we're saying that that is inconsistent because it's

990
01:37:50.000 --> 01:37:57.920
a creation in time. It's a
work that is specific in time. And

991
01:37:58.039 --> 01:38:00.479
this is where they start to have
problems with God being in time and space.

992
01:38:01.079 --> 01:38:04.479
Baser says that God cannot be in
time and space. He says that

993
01:38:04.560 --> 01:38:11.760
in the chapter on the Plotinian argument
for God's existence, he says, that's

994
01:38:11.760 --> 01:38:15.239
a good argument we can borrow.
We can use Plotinus's argument that God cannot

995
01:38:15.279 --> 01:38:19.079
be in time and space because it
would require him to change and undergo change.

996
01:38:19.520 --> 01:38:25.479
Oh, good job undercutting the incarnation, because the incarnation is the second

997
01:38:25.840 --> 01:38:29.840
hypostasis of the Godhead in time and
space, really doing actions in time and

998
01:38:29.880 --> 01:38:33.640
space, not just human actions,
not just created effects, divine actions.

999
01:38:34.159 --> 01:38:39.520
John Damascus says walking on water is
a demonstration of a specific divine act,

1000
01:38:39.720 --> 01:38:44.119
a divine power in time and space. You know, saying Thomas can't say

1001
01:38:44.159 --> 01:38:48.520
that. Thomas have to say that
everything Christ does in time and space is

1002
01:38:48.560 --> 01:38:56.399
a created effect because they believe it
would compromise their doctrine of simplicity and their

1003
01:38:56.479 --> 01:39:02.439
doctrine of pure act and so all
of this philosophy philosophizing undercuts the incarnation.

1004
01:39:03.039 --> 01:39:08.159
And remember, at the end of
the day, Roman Catholicism is no longer

1005
01:39:08.319 --> 01:39:15.760
this scholastic tomistic thing that Internet nerds
are all obsessed with. Roman Catholicism is

1006
01:39:15.800 --> 01:39:24.079
Francis. You can larp all day
long that Roman Catholicism is medieval monastics and

1007
01:39:24.239 --> 01:39:33.680
some you know monastery somewhere snorting book
dust all day long and writing vast tones

1008
01:39:33.720 --> 01:39:39.159
of thousands of pages. That doesn't
exist anymore. You live in a fantasy

1009
01:39:39.239 --> 01:39:45.159
world. The reality is Francis in
Rome. The reality is the Abu Dhabi

1010
01:39:45.239 --> 01:39:49.239
Faith Center. So we can get
into all the weeds of all of this.

1011
01:39:49.720 --> 01:39:54.479
At the end of the day,
this system failed, This system is

1012
01:39:54.600 --> 01:40:00.199
no longer held in Rome as the
normative system. They don't care that Leo

1013
01:40:00.239 --> 01:40:04.239
the thirteenth said that scholastic Toomism is
the official teacher. Francis doesn't care.

1014
01:40:05.960 --> 01:40:13.600
Francis just paid a document called the
Alexandria Document, which concedes the orthodox critiques

1015
01:40:13.600 --> 01:40:16.800
of the papacy. Go read the
Alexandria Document. That's the reality of Rome.

1016
01:40:17.239 --> 01:40:20.840
That's where your church really is.
It doesn't exist in the fantasy world

1017
01:40:20.920 --> 01:40:26.159
of Internet and Thomas on the Internet
and twenty year old guys in some other

1018
01:40:26.239 --> 01:40:31.119
country spurging out over this that doesn't
exist in reality. It's Francis, that's

1019
01:40:31.159 --> 01:40:38.079
the reality. It's the assy meetings
that are the reality. And all of

1020
01:40:38.119 --> 01:40:43.319
this is a distraction from that,
because this stuff is not your church anymore.

1021
01:40:43.840 --> 01:40:47.119
This is medieval stuff. And you
all know this, and this is

1022
01:40:47.159 --> 01:40:50.680
why you get so mad and play
the gatcha game something the acts of knowing.

1023
01:40:51.319 --> 01:40:55.960
When Bill something, the acts of
filling is in you, whereas there's

1024
01:40:56.000 --> 01:41:00.279
a transient action which is not in
you but in the thing. It's in

1025
01:41:00.399 --> 01:41:04.560
the thing that is acted at possible. All he's stating is that the transient

1026
01:41:04.600 --> 01:41:09.079
action is the created order that receives
the effect of being created right, that

1027
01:41:09.159 --> 01:41:13.600
receives the coming into being, and
so forth, once again cashing everything out

1028
01:41:13.680 --> 01:41:18.119
as to cause and effect dual scheme, never addressing the specific objection, which

1029
01:41:18.199 --> 01:41:28.199
is about the power creating itself,
always coming up with twofold distinctions intitative,

1030
01:41:29.680 --> 01:41:34.000
the terminus, the imminent, the
internal, the external, recipient whatever.

1031
01:41:36.279 --> 01:41:42.960
None of that addresses all these dents, restating other Tomistic views of cashing things

1032
01:41:43.039 --> 01:41:47.119
out as cause and effect agent recipient
not address. This doesn't address objection.

1033
01:41:47.159 --> 01:41:49.840
For example, if you build the
house. Yeah, but the action of

1034
01:41:50.039 --> 01:41:55.800
creating is not attornings. All you're
doing is inventing distinctions that don't answer the

1035
01:41:55.920 --> 01:41:58.560
question. You're just saying, oh, well, there's another distinction. There's

1036
01:41:58.560 --> 01:42:01.920
another distinction. I know that he's
not literally himself inventing them. I'm saying

1037
01:42:01.960 --> 01:42:09.159
that the scholastic position invents distinctions to
make systems work, and that's notorious for

1038
01:42:09.239 --> 01:42:14.760
scholasticism, and it only attracts these
hyper spergy people who will eventually when they

1039
01:42:14.800 --> 01:42:17.920
figure out that their worldview in their
church doesn't believe the stuff anymore, will

1040
01:42:17.960 --> 01:42:23.720
cause them to have a crisis of
faiths. The distinctions are inconsistent with what

1041
01:42:23.800 --> 01:42:27.359
you're saying. So it's all you're
doing. If you let me lay out

1042
01:42:27.439 --> 01:42:31.960
my position, you're nothing consistent.
Laying out your position is just stating what

1043
01:42:32.079 --> 01:42:35.960
you think is the case. That
doesn't make it consistent because it's not anti

1044
01:42:38.640 --> 01:42:42.119
So again I'm giving objections and he's
saying, let me just keep laying out

1045
01:42:42.119 --> 01:42:44.640
the position. Laying out the position, let me lay out more of the

1046
01:42:44.680 --> 01:42:47.279
position. That's not an argument.
We're already passed. We agree what Tomism

1047
01:42:47.399 --> 01:42:50.600
teaches, and so he's just let
me, let me say more Tomism though

1048
01:42:51.600 --> 01:42:57.960
asking why it's a consistent but it's
just inventing a new neo school. It's

1049
01:42:58.000 --> 01:43:00.920
a scholastic distinction to say, oh, well, the problem is resolved by

1050
01:43:00.960 --> 01:43:03.279
saying that there's two different types of
acts, and it's all it's doing is

1051
01:43:03.359 --> 01:43:08.439
restating by saying there's a transitive versus
a nontransitive act. It's restating the very

1052
01:43:08.560 --> 01:43:11.600
original question, which was, how
is the action of God, which is

1053
01:43:11.680 --> 01:43:16.399
eternal directed towards creation, not affecting
eternal creation? And you're saying, well,

1054
01:43:16.399 --> 01:43:19.840
because there's transitive action, there's imminent
acts, right, That's what I'm

1055
01:43:19.880 --> 01:43:25.039
trying to explain. Any that distinction
is just another kicking the candem. How

1056
01:43:25.079 --> 01:43:28.720
do we know that that distinction is
actually in God? That's the point.

1057
01:43:30.000 --> 01:43:35.279
And he's just gonna lay out more
Temism because again, how many distinctions have

1058
01:43:35.399 --> 01:43:40.000
we had? Now piled up a
lot of them, and again maybe maybe

1059
01:43:40.079 --> 01:43:44.560
that isn't God, but you understand
that it's an ad hoc rescue when you

1060
01:43:44.720 --> 01:43:49.000
pile them on and don't address what
the objection is. The objection has been

1061
01:43:49.039 --> 01:43:53.840
consistently. The attributes are all identical, so we don't know if it's telling

1062
01:43:53.920 --> 01:43:57.920
us anything about the actual object.
When we ask for that grounding in the

1063
01:43:58.000 --> 01:44:02.079
object, you said it's in the
mind, and you said a bunch of

1064
01:44:02.159 --> 01:44:06.520
begging the question that, well,
it's just the external object. God impresses

1065
01:44:06.560 --> 01:44:12.199
that upon our mind. There's a
power that he possesses that impresses that upon

1066
01:44:12.279 --> 01:44:15.319
our minds. That's what we want
to know. How do we know that

1067
01:44:15.439 --> 01:44:20.279
that's the case based on created analogs
to these attributes, which are not actually

1068
01:44:20.399 --> 01:44:25.399
multiple, they're actually all just one. Do you see that it cancels out

1069
01:44:26.239 --> 01:44:30.560
the reality of those things does not
correspond to what they are in our virtual

1070
01:44:30.560 --> 01:44:35.520
conception. The mode of their existence
totally different. And so what's it all

1071
01:44:35.560 --> 01:44:39.520
based? Well, but there's an
analogy between them? That's the how do

1072
01:44:39.600 --> 01:44:44.600
we know that that? You're just
saying that on what basis do we match

1073
01:44:44.720 --> 01:44:47.720
that up? Given the way you
cash out divine simplicity. That's never answered,

1074
01:44:47.720 --> 01:44:50.319
it's never addressed. They just brush
past it. It doesn't answer the

1075
01:44:50.399 --> 01:44:56.119
objection. All they do is introduce
new distinctions. You're saying you can invent

1076
01:44:56.159 --> 01:45:00.439
and distinction these distinctions all day long, but they don't answer the objection.

1077
01:45:00.239 --> 01:45:04.159
They do know they don't, so
they just do do they answer? They

1078
01:45:04.560 --> 01:45:10.439
just do. It's adding on new
distinctions in the system. Okay, So

1079
01:45:10.760 --> 01:45:13.520
I mean so if you just add
another distinction, how does that answer the

1080
01:45:13.640 --> 01:45:16.119
question I'm trying to ask her,
and you're just cutting me out. Like,

1081
01:45:16.880 --> 01:45:21.479
so, let's be clear about imminent
activity, right, and you can

1082
01:45:21.560 --> 01:45:27.720
find different academic sites for this for
the sake of the audience. Eminent activity

1083
01:45:27.720 --> 01:45:30.199
in the ristilianti mystic tradition is very
precise. It is an activity that has

1084
01:45:30.239 --> 01:45:34.720
no product, and of itself is
perfective of the agent that carries it on.

1085
01:45:35.159 --> 01:45:39.880
So it's an an internal sort of
It doesn't I can think about and

1086
01:45:40.000 --> 01:45:43.359
he'll use the example, or he
maybe he already did. Uh, you

1087
01:45:43.439 --> 01:45:45.960
know, in two years, I
want to build a house. This does

1088
01:45:45.039 --> 01:45:50.199
not work. When you've already said
that God is second act. There's no

1089
01:45:50.319 --> 01:45:57.359
such thing as a distinction between imminent
activity that doesn't necessitate the actual effect.

1090
01:45:59.239 --> 01:46:04.960
The power of creating cannot be a
purely eminent activity distinct from the external at

1091
01:46:05.000 --> 01:46:13.920
extra effect. Otherwise, God is
not second act anymore, because what he's

1092
01:46:13.960 --> 01:46:19.279
wanting to introduce is that God can
will to create or not. But remember

1093
01:46:19.560 --> 01:46:26.439
God's will is synonymous with the divine
essence and is eternal and is necessary,

1094
01:46:27.680 --> 01:46:31.920
So every act is eternal unnecessary.
But no, it's not. Because there's

1095
01:46:31.960 --> 01:46:38.159
imminent ones and then there's transitive external
recipient ones. You're just inventing distinctions that

1096
01:46:38.279 --> 01:46:41.720
are not consistent with what you what
you previously said, it's an ad hoc

1097
01:46:41.800 --> 01:46:45.560
rescue. Stating the system. You
don't understand. It's not Thomas. You

1098
01:46:45.640 --> 01:46:49.520
guys think. You guys think that
stating your system is an argument the system.

1099
01:46:50.000 --> 01:46:53.560
You don't understand. It's not Thomas. You guys think. You guys

1100
01:46:53.640 --> 01:46:56.560
think that stating your system. I
hope that Father you can can come on

1101
01:46:56.680 --> 01:47:05.159
and talk about knowing the first cause
what's better known by us versus what's known

1102
01:47:05.199 --> 01:47:11.720
in itself, because a lot of
this pertains back to the Aristotelian principle that

1103
01:47:12.119 --> 01:47:16.640
undergirds a lot of Tomaism and undergirds
the analogia. And Father Digga Duck right

1104
01:47:16.640 --> 01:47:20.399
now says a lot of good talks
and works on that very very Tom We're

1105
01:47:20.399 --> 01:47:24.720
almost done. No, I'm not
just taking my system. I'm proving getting

1106
01:47:24.880 --> 01:47:30.760
all all you having, so all
he's done is state thomasm. And now

1107
01:47:30.800 --> 01:47:35.199
he's saying, I've proven my system. He didn't prove Jack. And this

1108
01:47:35.359 --> 01:47:40.720
is where I am starting to get
annoyed because everything has been fine up until

1109
01:47:40.760 --> 01:47:45.800
not we've agreed, until I start
to ask questions, I start to raise

1110
01:47:45.840 --> 01:47:50.319
objections, and he says, I'm
proving my system. All you've done is

1111
01:47:50.359 --> 01:47:54.760
state your system. But this is
how these people think. They literally think

1112
01:47:54.800 --> 01:48:00.439
that when you state tomaism, it's
proving it all you have it. No,

1113
01:48:00.680 --> 01:48:02.600
I'm proving attain. You were saying, oh, you don't have a

1114
01:48:02.640 --> 01:48:06.720
response, and you think the proof
is just stating new distinctions that don't answer

1115
01:48:06.760 --> 01:48:14.239
the question. It doesn't answer the
question. How I'm telling you're not letting

1116
01:48:14.279 --> 01:48:17.039
me. I'm let him talk for
the last twenty minutes. What do you

1117
01:48:17.079 --> 01:48:19.640
mean, I'm not letting him totally? Not. This is where it starts

1118
01:48:19.640 --> 01:48:23.680
to getting letting you talk. You've
talked all the time. No, every

1119
01:48:23.720 --> 01:48:26.720
time I speak and say, oh, that's a new distinction list because it's

1120
01:48:27.239 --> 01:48:30.720
you think I didn't start interrupting and
bumping into it. But until about seventeen

1121
01:48:30.720 --> 01:48:32.960
minutes into his thing, and by
the way, he said after about five

1122
01:48:33.000 --> 01:48:36.279
minutes that I could talk anyway.
I think that laying out a position is

1123
01:48:36.279 --> 01:48:40.000
an argument. That's not what an
argument is. Yeah, but if I

1124
01:48:40.079 --> 01:48:43.000
don't lay out my position, how
are you godn't know what my response is?

1125
01:48:43.119 --> 01:48:45.640
When are you going to address the
objection? Because I've asked you the

1126
01:48:45.680 --> 01:48:48.319
same question like four times and you
just keep I didn't answer your question.

1127
01:48:48.640 --> 01:48:54.680
I said, from any trinal action, it's not it's begging the question.

1128
01:48:55.079 --> 01:48:58.520
It's begging the question. You're just
moving the can back and stuff by introducing

1129
01:48:58.560 --> 01:49:01.960
a new No. Yes, of
course, because but look, each one

1130
01:49:02.000 --> 01:49:08.920
of the distinctions just he states the
divide between God and world, cause and

1131
01:49:09.000 --> 01:49:14.039
effect. It's not addressing the objection. Yes, I'm interesting the objection.

1132
01:49:14.159 --> 01:49:19.239
No, you're not stating your possession
addressing Jay Jay if my name, just

1133
01:49:19.439 --> 01:49:24.960
address the argument. Okay, what
should I call you? You don't have

1134
01:49:25.079 --> 01:49:29.680
to repeat my name, just address
the argument. Okay, Sorry, I'm

1135
01:49:29.720 --> 01:49:33.439
sorry. Okay. So I'm saying
that from any trinal action, tnal effect

1136
01:49:33.840 --> 01:49:42.199
follows. If the action is formally
transient, how are we granting and knowing

1137
01:49:42.319 --> 01:49:46.960
that the distinction between imminent and transient
is the case. Again, he's just

1138
01:49:47.079 --> 01:49:50.760
stating that, well, there's these
different types of things. You see another

1139
01:49:50.840 --> 01:49:57.840
another layer and level of distinction.
Right, I want to know why should

1140
01:49:57.880 --> 01:50:00.319
we think that's the case, especially
given all of the other things that have

1141
01:50:00.399 --> 01:50:04.439
been said, and what does he
do just keep stating the position. I'm

1142
01:50:04.479 --> 01:50:11.720
saying that that that distinction is an
ad hoc distinction. That doesn't I'm not

1143
01:50:11.880 --> 01:50:15.479
saying, by the way, when
I when I call the distinction ad hoc,

1144
01:50:15.600 --> 01:50:18.880
I'm not saying that that's not a
toomistic position, right, because if

1145
01:50:18.920 --> 01:50:26.359
you look up you know scholastic philosophy. Yeah, Thomas and Aerosol talk about

1146
01:50:26.399 --> 01:50:32.399
this. I'm saying that it's not
functioning as he repeats this position to do

1147
01:50:32.600 --> 01:50:35.760
the work that he wants it to
do. It's not answering my objection.

1148
01:50:36.760 --> 01:50:41.840
Okay, that's why it's at It's
an ad hoc rescue against my argument.

1149
01:50:41.880 --> 01:50:44.000
I'm not saying that the Thomas don't
believe this. I know that they do.

1150
01:50:44.199 --> 01:50:46.359
Okay, Okay, let's be give
you an example. Suppose that I'll

1151
01:50:46.359 --> 01:50:49.119
pay attention to his example, because
this is a key point where he makes

1152
01:50:49.159 --> 01:50:55.760
a big mistake. His example is
not actually going to work to the question

1153
01:50:55.840 --> 01:51:00.239
of creating. He's going to use
a creaturely example, which is very silar

1154
01:51:00.239 --> 01:51:03.319
two kinds of examples that Bradshaw is
for first act and second act right,

1155
01:51:04.319 --> 01:51:08.159
and his example is not gonna work
for what he wants it to do.

1156
01:51:08.319 --> 01:51:15.119
It doesn't correspond to God in creation
punched the wall. Okay, can you

1157
01:51:15.159 --> 01:51:18.960
hear me? Yeah, you're punching
off the wall and wall getting punched are

1158
01:51:19.000 --> 01:51:26.800
simultaneous, right, M. Yeah, So that's it. That's an example

1159
01:51:26.840 --> 01:51:33.520
of transin tections. So the cause
and effect are simultaneous. M. And

1160
01:51:33.640 --> 01:51:39.720
then there's an action called emminenttection,
such as active filing. You can able

1161
01:51:39.800 --> 01:51:44.439
to build a house like now,
but you can actually build it like to

1162
01:51:44.600 --> 01:51:47.239
your boom. You hear that,
let's hear it that repeat it, because

1163
01:51:47.319 --> 01:51:53.960
this is the capacity's first and second
actuality argument. This is the point where

1164
01:51:54.000 --> 01:51:59.600
their position is not consistent. This
is why I was hammering first and second

1165
01:51:59.640 --> 01:52:04.279
act earlier on, and he agreed
earlier on that God is only second act

1166
01:52:04.880 --> 01:52:11.840
right exactly. Now he wants to
use an analogy of a power in a

1167
01:52:11.920 --> 01:52:15.479
capacity that I don't have to actualize. This is where he messed up.

1168
01:52:15.000 --> 01:52:19.840
Let's repeat it. So that's an
example of transintection, so the cause and

1169
01:52:20.000 --> 01:52:30.239
effect are simultaneous, and then there's
an action called emminenttection, such as active

1170
01:52:30.279 --> 01:52:33.199
building. You can't able to build
a house like now, but you can

1171
01:52:33.800 --> 01:52:40.640
actually build it like two years later. So it guess what, You just

1172
01:52:40.960 --> 01:52:45.359
shot yourself in the foot, because
that is an example that requires first act

1173
01:52:45.439 --> 01:52:51.039
as a capacity and second actuality as
an actualization. That doesn't exist in God.

1174
01:52:51.079 --> 01:52:57.000
According to you, that's when you
messed up. The effect doesn't have

1175
01:52:57.159 --> 01:53:00.159
to follow just because you have an
action in mind. Just because you want

1176
01:53:00.239 --> 01:53:03.119
to build the house, that doesn't
mean you're actually going to Yeah, but

1177
01:53:03.439 --> 01:53:09.479
God doesn't as an analogy to God
because God is pure No, it doesn't.

1178
01:53:09.720 --> 01:53:13.600
God is pure act. Therefore that
analogy does not work. He used

1179
01:53:13.640 --> 01:53:17.680
a creaturely analogy of a capacity that
I don't have to actualize. Earlier,

1180
01:53:17.760 --> 01:53:24.159
he said, God is pure act
with no unrealized capacities, only second act.

1181
01:53:27.600 --> 01:53:31.199
And this is what you guys are
all thinking that you had this great

1182
01:53:31.279 --> 01:53:34.760
gotcha. So this is the essence
of the debate. I'll play the last

1183
01:53:34.800 --> 01:53:39.159
couple of minutes. Then he just
starts getting alsoy about me, saying that

1184
01:53:39.279 --> 01:53:42.920
the conversation was bullshit. He acts
like I attacked him. Well, are

1185
01:53:42.960 --> 01:53:45.279
you custing? So I didn't insult
you, I said the conversation is bullshit,

1186
01:53:45.840 --> 01:53:50.760
because that would mean your your argument
that you just gave there is based

1187
01:53:50.880 --> 01:53:57.239
on first act and second act.
Yes, it is first hold on,

1188
01:53:57.760 --> 01:54:00.319
listen, you want me to make
Look, I understand your position. So

1189
01:54:01.199 --> 01:54:05.079
let me put it this way.
Let me ask you a question. Are

1190
01:54:05.119 --> 01:54:10.279
there worlds that God could have created
that he did it? Yeah? Of

1191
01:54:10.399 --> 01:54:17.439
course, So not every potentiality is
actualized, right, Yeah, because because

1192
01:54:17.520 --> 01:54:20.880
duels are secondary objects, they're not
on the part of God's acts, which

1193
01:54:20.960 --> 01:54:26.600
is in stated. Well, hold
on, it doesn't matter that they're quotes

1194
01:54:26.640 --> 01:54:30.199
secondary objects because they're based on the
divine ideas, which are in the divine

1195
01:54:30.319 --> 01:54:33.800
essence and synonymous with the divine essence. That's the point in terms of the

1196
01:54:33.880 --> 01:54:40.279
divine ideas, that the divine ideas
also contain all the possible worlds doesn't matter,

1197
01:54:40.399 --> 01:54:44.439
because doesn't God possess in the divine
essence all the ideas of all the

1198
01:54:44.479 --> 01:54:49.600
possible worlds? Sure, then the
possible worlds, which are divine ideas,

1199
01:54:49.880 --> 01:54:54.880
are also just as necessary as the
other ideas in the Divine essence because the

1200
01:54:54.920 --> 01:54:58.560
mine essence is necessary, an eternal, and it's anonymous with the power creating

1201
01:54:58.600 --> 01:55:01.159
an act of action of creating.
Okay, did he actualize all the possible

1202
01:55:01.159 --> 01:55:05.439
worlds? No? Because the divine
there's capacities of potential and God. No.

1203
01:55:06.000 --> 01:55:11.960
No, no, His very example
of me thinking about building a house,

1204
01:55:12.079 --> 01:55:15.800
having the power to do it,
and waiting to actualize it, right,

1205
01:55:15.520 --> 01:55:24.439
is a creaturely capacity first act moved
to second act example, which doesn't

1206
01:55:24.479 --> 01:55:28.520
apply to what he says about God, who he said earlier is only second

1207
01:55:28.600 --> 01:55:32.319
act, only pure act. Yes, no, yes, I'm explaining how

1208
01:55:32.560 --> 01:55:38.279
that doesn't follow. He doesn't explain
it. He just gives more tomistic position

1209
01:55:38.520 --> 01:55:41.279
every time. This is all they
ever do. Should follow, But you're

1210
01:55:41.319 --> 01:55:43.840
not consistent, that's the point.
No, no, it does. It

1211
01:55:43.960 --> 01:55:48.359
actually does not follow. By Yeah, I'm explaining because all of those possible

1212
01:55:48.479 --> 01:55:53.920
worlds that you call those are considered
as secondary objects of the divine relation.

1213
01:55:54.199 --> 01:56:00.199
Now since Field he's talking about the
creative effects, right, But it doesn't

1214
01:56:00.199 --> 01:56:04.439
matter because the creative effects are based
on all of the divine ideas of the

1215
01:56:04.560 --> 01:56:10.279
possible worlds and the actual world that
God created that are also in the divine

1216
01:56:10.359 --> 01:56:16.039
essence, and they're also anonymous.
Remember how he defined the minor virtual distinction

1217
01:56:16.079 --> 01:56:21.760
of the attributes. That's the same
for the divine ideas in Tomism, and

1218
01:56:21.880 --> 01:56:29.319
you can go read that in Whipple. This is inconsistent, though I understand,

1219
01:56:29.720 --> 01:56:32.239
Yes, it is. I understand
that you believe. I mean every

1220
01:56:32.279 --> 01:56:35.760
time I explain something, because I
already know this position. I've had this

1221
01:56:35.840 --> 01:56:38.680
debate for like, no, no, no, no, I don't think

1222
01:56:38.720 --> 01:56:42.720
you do an every time I do
understand the consistent without giving any arguments.

1223
01:56:43.560 --> 01:56:48.439
So he knows I understand the position
because we already got fifteen minutes in and

1224
01:56:48.560 --> 01:56:51.880
he understood. We both understood that
we're saying the same position. So he

1225
01:56:53.000 --> 01:56:59.000
knows I'm not misunderstanding the position.
But he's not addressing the objections that I

1226
01:57:00.079 --> 01:57:01.159
brought up. Number one, This
is not the first time I brought these

1227
01:57:01.199 --> 01:57:04.279
objections. These are objections we brought
up. I've been bringing up these objections

1228
01:57:04.319 --> 01:57:08.560
since I first learned to them,
at least ten or twelve years ago.

1229
01:57:10.239 --> 01:57:14.159
I'm gonna get say, oh,
that's bullshit. You want to do you

1230
01:57:14.199 --> 01:57:18.039
want to just cut this off?
We won't conversation. Why are you insulting

1231
01:57:18.199 --> 01:57:21.880
me, I said that is bullshit, and now he's mad that quote I'm

1232
01:57:21.920 --> 01:57:25.960
insulting him. It's not an insult
to you to say that what you said

1233
01:57:26.039 --> 01:57:29.880
right there's bullshit. That's just that's
just how normal dudes talk. I'm sure

1234
01:57:30.000 --> 01:57:33.159
that in these circles there's not normal
dudes. But I mean, when I'm

1235
01:57:33.199 --> 01:57:35.560
talking to my bros, we say, that's a bunch of bs. Okay,

1236
01:57:35.560 --> 01:57:41.479
you tuldn't get your feelings hurt over
that. That's it the end of

1237
01:57:41.479 --> 01:57:45.319
the discussion right there. So we're
gonna open it up. Hopefully everybody can

1238
01:57:45.439 --> 01:57:47.760
understand. I've got I'm ready to
talk to any Thomas that want to talk,

1239
01:57:48.439 --> 01:57:51.279
and you can make whatever points you
want. Don't get butt hurt and

1240
01:57:51.359 --> 01:57:58.880
start crying about me saying something's BS. If I think it's BSSBS, big

1241
01:57:59.000 --> 01:58:08.359
deal. And there's quite a few
people here, I guess actually there's not

1242
01:58:08.439 --> 01:58:12.159
that many people here. There's ninety
on Twitter. Any of anybody who wants

1243
01:58:12.199 --> 01:58:15.319
to come on can talk, request
to speak, uh, father deacon on

1244
01:58:15.399 --> 01:58:20.039
if you wanted to talk or not. But Danny, what's up, Danny?

1245
01:58:30.279 --> 01:58:42.840
I guess it's connecting for him.
Go ahead, Danny, h Well,

1246
01:58:42.880 --> 01:58:45.520
it's trying to connect to him.
We'll go to Garrett. What's up,

1247
01:58:45.560 --> 01:59:06.880
Garrett, m We got all blurred
out? What's up? Garrett?

1248
01:59:09.760 --> 01:59:19.399
Can nobody connect you Gotta? I'm
mute if you would. Also, you

1249
01:59:19.439 --> 01:59:26.279
can support the stream vias super chats. Nobody wants to talk naktarios. What's

1250
01:59:26.359 --> 01:59:36.039
up? Hello? What's up?
Hey? Jake? Uh? I had

1251
01:59:36.039 --> 01:59:42.119
a quick question on baptism and the
reception of heterodoxy. Okay, that's not

1252
01:59:42.239 --> 01:59:44.159
the topic today. Man. I'm
not trying to be rude to you,

1253
01:59:44.359 --> 01:59:56.479
but like it's all about tomism.
So Jesse, what's up? You gotta?

1254
01:59:56.520 --> 02:00:01.279
I'm mute? Man, Hey Jake, thanks for taking time to answer

1255
02:00:01.279 --> 02:00:04.920
a few questions. I had a
bit of a mini challenge for you.

1256
02:00:08.319 --> 02:00:14.920
Let me preface the question with this
quick observation. I'm finding in my conversations

1257
02:00:14.960 --> 02:00:21.279
and just society in general, that
we're just not really a philosophically literate society,

1258
02:00:21.960 --> 02:00:30.800
Like we don't really value rigorous thoughts
and like even using basic terms like

1259
02:00:30.880 --> 02:00:35.239
epistemology, ontology, blah blah blah, claims those just go over I would

1260
02:00:35.279 --> 02:00:40.159
say ninety five percent of people's heads. And I'm not claiming that like I'm

1261
02:00:40.199 --> 02:00:43.920
an arm chairful. I'm like,
I'm from the side look looking at this

1262
02:00:43.920 --> 02:00:47.479
stuff. So a lot of this, a lot of philosophical arguments can go

1263
02:00:47.560 --> 02:00:53.640
over are a bit too lofty for
me as well. I get the sense

1264
02:00:53.880 --> 02:00:59.359
that when this is your audience,
not you, it's specifically, but in

1265
02:00:59.479 --> 02:01:04.520
general, people just end up hearing
like a word salad and it just gets

1266
02:01:04.640 --> 02:01:10.199
dismissed because they just it just goes
over their heads. So here's my question.

1267
02:01:11.319 --> 02:01:16.439
Could you explain the transcendental argument for
God to say a ten or twelve

1268
02:01:16.520 --> 02:01:23.079
year old? Could you could you
like simplify to that degree, considering this

1269
02:01:23.279 --> 02:01:29.960
audience doesn't know much about philosophical terms
and whatnot. I mean, we've done

1270
02:01:30.000 --> 02:01:33.199
many talks, you know, where
we make a kind of a easier,

1271
02:01:33.279 --> 02:01:38.359
simpler presentation of TAG. I mean
today we're talking about you know, tomism

1272
02:01:38.399 --> 02:01:43.119
in these issues. But I think
the easiest way to make TAG for younger

1273
02:01:43.199 --> 02:01:47.520
people is to talk about how arguments
the argument from the ethical angle. I

1274
02:01:47.600 --> 02:01:50.600
mean, if if there aren't if
there is no transcendent realm at all,

1275
02:01:50.720 --> 02:01:56.039
if God doesn't exist, then there
really is no basis for morals or for

1276
02:01:57.479 --> 02:02:01.199
ethical claims, right and wrong.
There's no basis for you know, saying

1277
02:02:01.319 --> 02:02:04.119
this is good. This is about
value. Judgments really don't have any way

1278
02:02:04.199 --> 02:02:09.399
to be grounded beyond pure subjectivity.
So I think the easiest way to introduce

1279
02:02:09.479 --> 02:02:13.600
it to you know, ten thirteen
year old people is to say things like,

1280
02:02:13.960 --> 02:02:16.359
you know, relativism is self refuting, right. These are elements of

1281
02:02:16.399 --> 02:02:20.079
the transient argument, where you say
things like there's no there is no truth.

1282
02:02:20.560 --> 02:02:23.680
Well, that's a truth claim that
there is no truth. Right,

1283
02:02:24.359 --> 02:02:29.159
everything is relative. Well, that's
contradicting the notion that everything is relative because

1284
02:02:29.199 --> 02:02:31.880
you're saying that this is objectively true. And if this is objectively true,

1285
02:02:31.920 --> 02:02:35.000
then it's not the case that everything
is relative. So these are kind of

1286
02:02:35.000 --> 02:02:40.640
easy ways to introduce people to TAG, and I've met many teenagers over the

1287
02:02:40.720 --> 02:02:46.560
years who have understood TAG at that
level. Interesting. Yeah, that's that's

1288
02:02:46.720 --> 02:02:49.600
that's interesting. How would you were
you were to take the next step and

1289
02:02:49.720 --> 02:02:57.520
start to bring in issues like well, we assume mathematics or we get into

1290
02:02:57.560 --> 02:03:00.840
that realm of like, yeah,
that's taken it out of fix and into

1291
02:03:00.000 --> 02:03:03.800
and knowledge and into metaphysics, and
so metaphysics is usually you know, a

1292
02:03:03.840 --> 02:03:09.119
little more difficult little more technical of
a domain, and so it might be

1293
02:03:09.239 --> 02:03:15.199
longer to wait. You might want
to wait longer. By the way,

1294
02:03:15.439 --> 02:03:17.039
all the Thomas and the chat like, I mean, we got an open

1295
02:03:17.159 --> 02:03:20.880
chat right here, and you can
talk. But I'm not I'm not gonna

1296
02:03:21.840 --> 02:03:29.439
ban you or boot you unless you
do something right to make me do that.

1297
02:03:30.800 --> 02:03:33.159
So you can come on and make
your points. I mean, if

1298
02:03:33.199 --> 02:03:38.600
you saw in the conversation with the
guy, I mean, we went fine

1299
02:03:38.640 --> 02:03:41.840
for the first first fifteen minutes.
And so if you want to address those

1300
02:03:41.920 --> 02:03:45.439
kinds of objections and if you want
to get into the actual specifics of like

1301
02:03:46.359 --> 02:03:50.399
you know, tomistic metaphysics, let's
do it. I mean, that's I'm

1302
02:03:50.439 --> 02:03:53.640
giving you the Twitter space right there, and so I'm not trying to be

1303
02:03:53.720 --> 02:03:57.479
mean to you, Jesse. I
know those that those are good questions.

1304
02:03:57.560 --> 02:04:03.520
But really this this stream was directed
towards responding to a lot of these tomistic

1305
02:04:03.560 --> 02:04:09.359
positions and claims and arguments. And
father Deacon, are you there, are

1306
02:04:09.439 --> 02:04:15.640
you able to talk for a little
bit? Would you speak maybe if you

1307
02:04:15.720 --> 02:04:18.960
could to some of the topics that
you and I've talked about for many years,

1308
02:04:19.079 --> 02:04:25.560
and and you know, like your
paper you talked about knowing the good

1309
02:04:25.960 --> 02:04:30.439
Uh, well, knowing something as
it appears to us versus as it is

1310
02:04:30.520 --> 02:04:33.840
in itself. And you know,
when you you did a good critique,

1311
02:04:33.880 --> 02:04:40.880
I think of Thomas's you know,
position that every effect contains a similarity to

1312
02:04:41.000 --> 02:04:44.920
its cause. I mean, these
are really the positions that underlie the tomistic

1313
02:04:45.000 --> 02:04:47.640
analogia. And that's the problem is
that those are the things that are in

1314
02:04:47.760 --> 02:04:51.239
question. Those are the things that
are assumed when we have all of these

1315
02:04:51.359 --> 02:04:57.760
various distinctions that the Scholastics put upon
God. They're all still based on analogical

1316
02:04:57.840 --> 02:05:00.760
predication. But how do we know
that analogical predication holes and that it is

1317
02:05:00.840 --> 02:05:03.520
the case. Maybe it is,
but they always want this to just assume

1318
02:05:03.560 --> 02:05:08.199
it. I don't know. Those
that sounded like a bunch of words salad

1319
02:05:08.239 --> 02:05:13.359
demand. All right, Okay,
here we go. What is known in

1320
02:05:13.439 --> 02:05:15.319
itself versus what is known to us? Like that kind of stuff. So

1321
02:05:16.920 --> 02:05:24.199
look, a quaintness gets something right
and does acknowledge that our ability to reason

1322
02:05:24.319 --> 02:05:33.880
and obtain truth depends on God as
But the problem is that and this will

1323
02:05:33.960 --> 02:05:40.600
end up being viciously circular, and
you create an autonomous epistemology that can't do

1324
02:05:40.760 --> 02:05:46.399
the work, but the preconditions for
intelligibility don't need to be placed in God.

1325
02:05:48.359 --> 02:05:55.319
In other words, you can He
has this. Basically, what's better

1326
02:05:55.439 --> 02:06:02.039
known by nature is the cause,
and what's better known to us is the

1327
02:06:02.159 --> 02:06:09.520
effects. So the idea is that
in the natural order of things of our

1328
02:06:09.640 --> 02:06:14.239
inquiry, it's to start from things
that are more noble to us. So

1329
02:06:14.319 --> 02:06:16.760
we start with sense, perception,
and all this different stuff, and then

1330
02:06:16.800 --> 02:06:25.880
we proceed towards the things that Aristotle
and acquaintance car clear in of themselves,

1331
02:06:26.239 --> 02:06:30.680
like being God, et cetera.
So temporarily speaking, the effects are then

1332
02:06:30.760 --> 02:06:33.960
first and then the cause. But
an acquaintance realizes, but in the real

1333
02:06:34.079 --> 02:06:38.279
order existence, it's the cause.
It's first. Now, the problem with

1334
02:06:38.479 --> 02:06:44.920
this is that's just a it's a
metaphysical statement, right, It ignores the

1335
02:06:45.119 --> 02:06:58.720
epistemological issues here that let me put
it this way, it's putting your metaphysical

1336
02:06:59.239 --> 02:07:05.000
horse before the epistemological card. And
so if so, that was a metaphysical

1337
02:07:05.039 --> 02:07:10.960
description about causality the way the world
is, and you know, causes,

1338
02:07:11.039 --> 02:07:17.800
relate effects, et cetera, and
our metaphysics determines that we can know and

1339
02:07:17.920 --> 02:07:25.479
how we can know. But the
problem is I have to know which metaphysics

1340
02:07:25.640 --> 02:07:30.840
is correct. So like the your
friends that you were, Militant Thomas that

1341
02:07:30.960 --> 02:07:34.199
you're you're arguing with, all they're
doing is telling a story. In one

1342
02:07:34.279 --> 02:07:40.039
sense, they're just giving you a
metaphysical story. But giving a metaphysical story

1343
02:07:40.199 --> 02:07:43.600
is not an argument, right,
So when we're asking an argument, we're

1344
02:07:43.640 --> 02:07:48.199
in the epistemological category. And the
problem is you can't do what a Quaintas

1345
02:07:49.199 --> 02:07:55.439
and Militant Thomas and these various people
are doing. You can't put your metaphysical

1346
02:07:55.600 --> 02:08:00.600
horse before the epistemological cards. So
if the metaphysics the correct view right,

1347
02:08:01.359 --> 02:08:05.079
determines what and how you can know, but then I have to know prior

1348
02:08:05.199 --> 02:08:11.119
to my metaphysics, so I know
what my metaphys what the correct metaphysics is,

1349
02:08:11.720 --> 02:08:18.439
right. This is a problem if
you start off with this kind of

1350
02:08:18.560 --> 02:08:22.640
natural theology that I can build a
system. Yeah, I can build a

1351
02:08:22.800 --> 02:08:28.720
system autonomous from a presupposition and the
only standard that could actually do the work

1352
02:08:30.000 --> 02:08:33.079
as far as just location God,
And then I'll get up to God,

1353
02:08:33.720 --> 02:08:37.399
and then I'll retrospective and be like, well, but you know, after

1354
02:08:37.439 --> 02:08:39.640
I figured it all out, and
proven God, then I can say,

1355
02:08:39.720 --> 02:08:43.720
well, of course he's the better
known by nature and the cause of all

1356
02:08:43.760 --> 02:08:52.479
this. But the whole problem is
you started your enterprise on shaky epistemological grounds,

1357
02:08:54.520 --> 02:09:01.119
no epistemological grounds, We have no
idea if that's actually correct, and

1358
02:09:01.319 --> 02:09:05.319
so what ends up happening is something
vicious circular. We'll just grant to me

1359
02:09:07.159 --> 02:09:11.640
that it's actually true without me having
to justify it, because the justifications of

1360
02:09:11.760 --> 02:09:16.039
a ladder category, which is going
to be dependent circular right on on my

1361
02:09:16.199 --> 02:09:20.079
metaphysics, so that I can actually
just my my metaphysics and epistemology. Do

1362
02:09:20.159 --> 02:09:24.760
you see the problem? Absolutely?
Yeah, every Tomas is going to be

1363
02:09:26.279 --> 02:09:33.239
demanding that we just grant him in
that system, and they're not. They're

1364
02:09:33.279 --> 02:09:37.560
not interested in epistemology. I mean, if we go into epistemology, they're

1365
02:09:37.600 --> 02:09:41.800
gonna fold when it comes to questions
of justification, self evidence, classical foundationalism

1366
02:09:41.840 --> 02:09:46.800
and all that. And also,
how do I know that that's even right?

1367
02:09:46.079 --> 02:09:50.159
What's better normal by nature versus what's
exactly So this Aristotelian principle right,

1368
02:09:50.399 --> 02:09:54.359
or you know, the paripotatic axiom, how do we know that the pariptatic

1369
02:09:54.399 --> 02:10:01.079
axiom is actually the justified starting point. Yeah, because I can tell story,

1370
02:10:01.119 --> 02:10:03.159
a metaphysical story. Yeah, that's
what they'll do. They say,

1371
02:10:03.159 --> 02:10:05.800
well, here's a grand metaphysical story. So it's to see if that's a

1372
02:10:05.880 --> 02:10:09.600
proof. Yeah, and if you
get me on something, I'll just throw

1373
02:10:09.640 --> 02:10:13.720
on an ad hoc rescue and to
add another distinction on there to make the

1374
02:10:13.800 --> 02:10:18.359
story even more Colm, that's why
it's sorcery. Right, It's just it's

1375
02:10:18.439 --> 02:10:20.439
all an illusion, right, It's
just I'm gonna make it more and more

1376
02:10:20.560 --> 02:10:26.479
complicated and look, to be fair, all all of the hope philosophers do

1377
02:10:26.600 --> 02:10:30.560
this, right, you start getting
to the heart of the matter, and

1378
02:10:30.640 --> 02:10:31.920
what do they do. They make
it more and more complicated, so you

1379
02:10:33.039 --> 02:10:37.960
can't actually see that it's a con. Yeah, that's why I kept saying

1380
02:10:39.079 --> 02:10:41.960
that, really, all you're doing
is just introducing more, introducing more and

1381
02:10:43.000 --> 02:10:48.359
more distinctions without dressing an objection.
It's like, and the reality Roman Catholicism

1382
02:10:48.479 --> 02:10:54.439
is not this stuff, right.
The reality Roman Catholicism is Francis and Abu

1383
02:10:54.520 --> 02:10:58.319
Dhabi faith Center with the Muslims and
Jews. Right, that's the reality.

1384
02:10:58.399 --> 02:11:03.800
It's not this stuff, but it's
good to point out that this natural theology

1385
02:11:05.920 --> 02:11:11.319
no point ten naturally leads, right, it's the natural outworking of Yeah,

1386
02:11:11.359 --> 02:11:20.239
absolutely no explicitly is basing its perennialist
approach to the world. Religions all having

1387
02:11:20.279 --> 02:11:24.880
the same generic God on the tomistic
idea of natural theology that we and natural

1388
02:11:24.880 --> 02:11:28.720
theology is defined in fit us at
ratio by John Paul the Second, as

1389
02:11:28.760 --> 02:11:35.159
Father Deacon points out, as philosophizing
about God apart from divine revelation. Right,

1390
02:11:37.760 --> 02:11:41.239
so it's autonomous, which is absurd, And this is an easy way

1391
02:11:41.319 --> 02:11:48.439
to fleck. I was speaking to
a ten year old a transidental organ what

1392
02:11:48.720 --> 02:11:56.760
do you possibly think could be independent
or a higher standard than God? They

1393
02:11:56.840 --> 02:12:00.960
say nothing. That's like, then
you've got the transidental argument. That's it.

1394
02:12:03.760 --> 02:12:13.920
There is no independent starting point and
there's no epistemic standard that's higher than

1395
02:12:13.000 --> 02:12:18.920
God that you prove God by.
So you don't prove God. God is

1396
02:12:18.960 --> 02:12:22.720
that by which you prove everything else. So it's a fundamental category mistake,

1397
02:12:24.039 --> 02:12:28.199
right to think that, oh,
well, I'm going to prove God.

1398
02:12:28.239 --> 02:12:31.439
It's like, no, no,
there has to be something. And everybody

1399
02:12:31.720 --> 02:12:39.560
realizes this, you know, in
both in philosophy and logic, there has

1400
02:12:39.640 --> 02:12:46.000
to be something that's not proven but
that's necessary, and is that by which

1401
02:12:46.119 --> 02:12:52.840
proves everything else? And that's pretty
straightway forward with stating the transitional argument.

1402
02:12:54.520 --> 02:12:58.600
What would you say, what specifically
could you elucidate that point you were making

1403
02:12:58.640 --> 02:13:01.720
about which is better known in itself
versus that which is known by us?

1404
02:13:03.359 --> 02:13:07.840
And you started that paper off that
you wrote by by that quoting that from

1405
02:13:07.840 --> 02:13:11.760
Aristotle, and how we're just as
assumed that that's the case. Right,

1406
02:13:11.800 --> 02:13:13.239
But it is that sort of begging
the question, maybe it is the case,

1407
02:13:13.319 --> 02:13:16.520
but why are we supposed to think
that it is the case? Yeah,

1408
02:13:16.640 --> 02:13:22.640
that's well, that's the question.
Why should we Why should we think

1409
02:13:22.720 --> 02:13:31.319
that that's the case. So,
because I've always thought that it's the principle

1410
02:13:31.359 --> 02:13:37.439
of sufficient reason, that every effect
has a cause that I can even I

1411
02:13:37.520 --> 02:13:41.439
mean, look at hume, what
human brings up? I don't even know

1412
02:13:41.640 --> 02:13:46.399
cause and effect? How is that
even possible from sense experience? Oh,

1413
02:13:46.479 --> 02:13:52.359
you just gotta assume this metaphysical,
this whole metaphysical story again, that you

1414
02:13:52.640 --> 02:13:58.560
start from the effects which are clear
to you. So that would be something

1415
02:13:58.640 --> 02:14:05.800
in the astemological category, but in
the real order of things. Ontologically speaking,

1416
02:14:05.000 --> 02:14:11.119
it's the cause that's farther away,
as far as known, But the

1417
02:14:11.199 --> 02:14:16.720
real order of things, that's what's
most real. And so you've always got

1418
02:14:16.800 --> 02:14:22.239
to perceive in this way. But
think about how many think about how many

1419
02:14:22.439 --> 02:14:28.239
presuppositions are loaded into that ye,
about the nature of sensation, about the

1420
02:14:28.319 --> 02:14:37.199
way that we know cause and effect, and furthermore, somehow I'm actually another

1421
02:14:37.239 --> 02:14:43.479
way that it's viciously circular. I
know, what's the principle what's better known

1422
02:14:43.520 --> 02:14:48.760
by us versus what's better known by
nature? By what the principle of what's

1423
02:14:48.800 --> 02:14:52.319
better known by us versus what's better
known by nature? Do you see what

1424
02:14:52.359 --> 02:15:01.640
I mean? Yeah, So that's
a metaphysical and epistemological story that if I

1425
02:15:01.880 --> 02:15:05.760
ask them, how do I know
that that's true? What are they going

1426
02:15:05.800 --> 02:15:11.000
to say? Because the metaphysical picture
is true, that's how we know.

1427
02:15:11.279 --> 02:15:13.840
But that's what's in question, you
see. Yeah, And that's a you

1428
02:15:13.880 --> 02:15:16.960
know, great epistemic critique. What's
the name of your paper? Is it

1429
02:15:18.039 --> 02:15:22.159
still in the discord? I can
put it in the chat too? Is

1430
02:15:22.560 --> 02:15:28.960
the theory of knowledge? Yeah?
Epistemological apolitic medics, the methods of the

1431
02:15:28.000 --> 02:15:31.600
trip flaws. Let me put this
in your YouTube chat right there, and

1432
02:15:31.920 --> 02:15:37.479
in regard to the distinctions in God
and the scholastic distinctions, it's in there.

1433
02:15:37.600 --> 02:15:41.960
Yeah, oh thanks, so everybody. Then the chat there is the

1434
02:15:41.399 --> 02:15:46.119
Patristic faith linked to that paper that
father Deacon wrote, kind of illustrating what

1435
02:15:46.199 --> 02:15:50.039
he was critiquing about that which is
better known by us versus what is known

1436
02:15:50.079 --> 02:15:52.880
in itself that how do we know
that that self evident principle is actually self

1437
02:15:52.920 --> 02:15:56.000
evident? Right? Well, the
tell mystic aristating position, just like the

1438
02:15:56.039 --> 02:15:58.399
peripatetic axiom, says, well,
it just has to be that way.

1439
02:16:00.279 --> 02:16:03.800
And by the way, we can
go into why rhetorsion doesn't actually get you

1440
02:16:03.880 --> 02:16:07.039
to justification later on. We've done
that many times. Go back to that.

1441
02:16:07.079 --> 02:16:09.880
I did a whole talk on the
Russmannion paper which is about that.

1442
02:16:11.880 --> 02:16:15.800
Let's read the super chats. I
don't know, I mean, I gave

1443
02:16:15.880 --> 02:16:18.840
this out link out to like countless
Roman Catholics. I don't know where they're

1444
02:16:18.840 --> 02:16:22.880
at. Blake, do you want
to say something our black staff? Did

1445
02:16:22.920 --> 02:16:26.680
you want to say something? Oh? Yeah, yeah, can you hear

1446
02:16:26.760 --> 02:16:31.279
me? Yeah? Yeah, okay. I kind of had two things,

1447
02:16:31.319 --> 02:16:33.840
but One of the things that I'll
bring up first is, uh, you

1448
02:16:33.920 --> 02:16:37.799
know about Tomasm. I've read like
a bit of the Suma, you know,

1449
02:16:37.879 --> 02:16:43.639
and one thing that I find really
confusing is he seems to say that

1450
02:16:43.799 --> 02:16:50.600
the relations of opposition are themselves the
essence correct, So how do you distinguish

1451
02:16:50.760 --> 02:16:54.280
between the persons anymore at that point? Or is this just him being inconsistent.

1452
02:16:54.840 --> 02:16:58.000
That's an inconsistently right, because he'll
he'll make statements like that all the

1453
02:16:58.079 --> 02:17:01.799
time that for the worth of all
we think are problematic Yaska tements. They'll

1454
02:17:01.840 --> 02:17:05.479
just say, well, but elsewhere
he says this, so yeah, yeah.

1455
02:17:07.399 --> 02:17:09.879
And so the other thing that I
wanted to bring up is something that

1456
02:17:09.959 --> 02:17:16.200
I think gets overlooked by Roman Catholics
when trying to understand the Orthodox position.

1457
02:17:16.840 --> 02:17:20.920
And I noticed this fanatic Thomas Dude
posted this on Twitter earlier, a screenshot

1458
02:17:22.120 --> 02:17:28.319
of a quote from Saint John Damascus
Orthodox faithbook one about about generation being an

1459
02:17:28.319 --> 02:17:33.319
act, about it well, about
it being from the from the essence.

1460
02:17:33.719 --> 02:17:37.000
Yeah, this is fundamental mistake.
It's the essence of the father, right,

1461
02:17:37.040 --> 02:17:41.360
It's not it's not the essence quite
essence, because in the sun would

1462
02:17:41.360 --> 02:17:45.040
generate himself. Yeah, and I
mean in context, if you go read

1463
02:17:45.120 --> 02:17:48.239
it, really, what he's getting
at is that the sun and the spirit

1464
02:17:48.319 --> 02:17:52.200
are not a product of the will
right there, naturally coming from this.

1465
02:17:52.360 --> 02:17:58.520
It's a natural generation, not a
you know, the Eunomies position is that

1466
02:17:58.680 --> 02:18:01.959
the sun is at work of will
and energy. Yeah, and so what

1467
02:18:03.079 --> 02:18:05.159
I wanted to ask you though,
and this may kind of be off topics,

1468
02:18:05.159 --> 02:18:07.079
so you don't want to get into
it, that's fine, But I'm

1469
02:18:07.079 --> 02:18:09.239
gonna think I got another podcastle I
go to do in a minute, gog

1470
02:18:09.239 --> 02:18:13.479
ahead, Yeah, Like, is
there a sense in which we would say

1471
02:18:13.600 --> 02:18:18.639
that the essence is sort of derivative
of the father? Yeah, that's actually

1472
02:18:18.639 --> 02:18:22.799
an the original nice scene Creed and
it's an Athanasius that the son derives his

1473
02:18:24.520 --> 02:18:28.200
entire being, his existence is hypostasis
and everything from the Father. Yeah.

1474
02:18:28.239 --> 02:18:31.600
No, but I'm talking about the
essence itself. It seems to me that,

1475
02:18:31.760 --> 02:18:35.559
like, because the Father just is
the way that he is, that

1476
02:18:35.760 --> 02:18:39.639
kind of defines the way that the
essence is. Would that be incorrect or

1477
02:18:41.159 --> 02:18:43.760
what do you mean? How does
the father being what he is, define

1478
02:18:43.799 --> 02:18:46.639
what the essence is? Because there's
no ontological priority, right, there's so

1479
02:18:48.479 --> 02:18:50.879
like in my mind, it seems
that like the Father just is the way

1480
02:18:50.959 --> 02:18:54.719
that he is, and he is
God and he is the divine one who

1481
02:18:54.879 --> 02:18:58.879
has the divine essence that he then
communicates to the son and the spirit.

1482
02:19:00.040 --> 02:19:03.520
M So it seems to me and
and so like I see, Like that's

1483
02:19:03.559 --> 02:19:07.600
why I was saying, I'm not
sure about the term it being derivative of

1484
02:19:07.680 --> 02:19:13.639
because I don't want to bring in
contingency per se, you know. But

1485
02:19:13.879 --> 02:19:15.799
no, I think that I don't
see why that would be a term.

1486
02:19:15.840 --> 02:19:20.360
It's not a temporal derivation. It's
an eternal derivation. Yeah, I mean,

1487
02:19:20.520 --> 02:19:22.239
Jesus says that everything that he has
he has from the Father, so

1488
02:19:22.399 --> 02:19:30.479
from signifies derivation. Yeah, But
I'm talking more about like because they tend

1489
02:19:30.600 --> 02:19:35.079
to start with the essence and then
attribute all this stuff to the persons based

1490
02:19:35.159 --> 02:19:39.399
on the essence, right, It's
like I think that they get confused about

1491
02:19:39.440 --> 02:19:43.280
the fact that the Father is like
self determinant in all of his properties and

1492
02:19:43.399 --> 02:19:50.399
everything, right yeah, because they
don't start with the monarchia of of the

1493
02:19:50.520 --> 02:19:54.440
person of the Father, right.
Yeah. I just think that that's something

1494
02:19:54.559 --> 02:20:00.159
that they kind of really miss,
is that like the Essence isn't defining the

1495
02:20:00.200 --> 02:20:05.959
divine persons are No. Essence only
exists in hypostatically in the persons that have

1496
02:20:05.120 --> 02:20:09.760
it, and so person's first,
not essence. Yeah, So I just

1497
02:20:09.799 --> 02:20:11.000
wanted to kind of like run this
by you a little bit because it's something

1498
02:20:11.040 --> 02:20:15.159
I've been thinking about and make sure
I had it kind of like framed right

1499
02:20:15.200 --> 02:20:18.760
in my head. But that's all
I got, all right, man,

1500
02:20:18.840 --> 02:20:22.879
Thank you great questions and points.
I got a couple of super chats,

1501
02:20:22.920 --> 02:20:26.040
and I gotta go run beyond somebody's
podcast, So they're gonna be mad if

1502
02:20:26.040 --> 02:20:30.760
I don't get over there, based
and chase ten dollars? Is there salvation

1503
02:20:30.840 --> 02:20:35.000
in the Roman Caloic Church? The
Roman Catholic Church can't save you. But

1504
02:20:35.200 --> 02:20:37.840
if Christ has a way by which
he can unite people to his mystical body,

1505
02:20:39.520 --> 02:20:41.639
he can certainly do that like the
thief on the cross. But the

1506
02:20:41.680 --> 02:20:45.200
normandid means by which people are saved
is through coming into the Orthodox Church.

1507
02:20:45.280 --> 02:20:48.079
Thory and pie infusion, elector ten
dollars, what's happening? Dire exposed cave

1508
02:20:48.159 --> 02:20:52.879
to totally generousy. Oh he likes
my NPC comedy video. Thank you,

1509
02:20:54.000 --> 02:21:00.440
bon Jovi, nineteen twelve forty dollars
is nominalism? Is this a nominalistic viewpoint?

1510
02:21:01.639 --> 02:21:05.959
Tomasm? I mean tomasm is not
identical to nominalism because Acquintus has a

1511
02:21:07.040 --> 02:21:11.559
form of realism. But many Thomas
have argued that some of Thomas's positions,

1512
02:21:11.719 --> 02:21:18.639
especially about universals, do anticipate later
nominalist developments. So it gets really precise,

1513
02:21:18.799 --> 02:21:22.959
but it kind of depends on what
Thomas's status for universals is, and

1514
02:21:24.000 --> 02:21:28.840
a lot of there's Tomastic debates amongst
Thomas that's exactly what his position of universals

1515
02:21:28.959 --> 02:21:33.559
is. But to me he seems
to be more leaning nominalistic in my reading

1516
02:21:33.600 --> 02:21:39.040
of Aquinas Cataclysm ten seventy three.
Do the debate review with Orthodox Shahada and

1517
02:21:39.239 --> 02:21:41.959
also the Doctor Branson stream. Yeah, Doctor Branson and I are going to

1518
02:21:43.000 --> 02:21:46.600
be doing a show very soon and
we'll get into the monarchy of the Father

1519
02:21:46.719 --> 02:21:50.079
more in depth with him, and
I think orthdox Shad and I are doing

1520
02:21:50.200 --> 02:21:54.479
a debate review. It's just we're
trying to get it to where we can

1521
02:21:54.520 --> 02:21:56.239
all do at the same time.
Brand Will fifty dollars day, I love

1522
02:21:56.280 --> 02:22:01.440
your stuff. How do we bring
Orthodox people from the furry world. I

1523
02:22:01.520 --> 02:22:05.280
mean, I mean, well,
they're gonna have to just give up furry

1524
02:22:05.319 --> 02:22:11.639
stuff first. So I don't have
any insights on furry outreach. I don't

1525
02:22:11.639 --> 02:22:16.280
have the furry outreach program. So
I just think that's a weird, odd

1526
02:22:16.399 --> 02:22:20.719
community. It's creepy. So they're
gonna have to just give up that stuff

1527
02:22:22.120 --> 02:22:24.280
they need. Jesus. I was
wanting to know how you go about it,

1528
02:22:24.280 --> 02:22:26.719
if you have any ideas, I
guess be nice to them and tell

1529
02:22:26.799 --> 02:22:31.280
them to come to church and then
tell them to throw away their cat costumes.

1530
02:22:31.520 --> 02:22:35.239
Do you have twenty dollars? Think
everythingalysis? Can you upload the TikTok

1531
02:22:35.319 --> 02:22:43.799
debate? It's on my rock fan
truth Seeker twelve ten dollars? Tell us

1532
02:22:43.840 --> 02:22:50.520
believe that person in nature are identical
to essence. Do you hold this position?

1533
02:22:50.239 --> 02:22:56.120
Well, person in nature exists in
the mode of the person has it's

1534
02:22:56.200 --> 02:23:00.600
in iposthtize, But nature and person
are not identical in a strict sense.

1535
02:23:00.680 --> 02:23:03.840
That would be modalism. Why don't
you argue this more often? We argue

1536
02:23:03.879 --> 02:23:09.200
all the time. I've probably got
thirty podcasts that argue about the nature person

1537
02:23:09.280 --> 02:23:13.600
distinction. You typically talk about the
relation between the attributes and the essence,

1538
02:23:13.760 --> 02:23:18.120
but not persons and essence, because
Thomas will just say that Thomas believes in

1539
02:23:18.280 --> 02:23:24.040
a major, real distinction between the
persons. But it's true that between nature

1540
02:23:24.079 --> 02:23:37.200
and essence. Thomas consistently says that
what I lost people are talking about nonsense.

1541
02:23:39.200 --> 02:23:43.479
Yeah, I mean so a Quantas
has these statements, and you saw

1542
02:23:43.559 --> 02:23:46.399
Ybara repeat it like a couple of
years ago, right, that nature and

1543
02:23:46.520 --> 02:23:50.040
person are identical. Yeah, maybe
I need to focus on that more.

1544
02:23:50.159 --> 02:23:54.120
King, I tell a five dollars. Prime supports the fanatic Thomas on Twitter.

1545
02:23:54.239 --> 02:23:58.360
Of course he does. I mean
he argues all these Roman Catholic positions.

1546
02:23:58.559 --> 02:24:03.840
He argued is that we believe in
and Selmian and penal substitution, Augustinian

1547
02:24:03.920 --> 02:24:09.440
stuff, and then I called him
out on that. So of course he's

1548
02:24:09.440 --> 02:24:11.559
going to agree with anybody who goes
against me. So I mean, if

1549
02:24:11.920 --> 02:24:16.440
Prime wants to go off into Roman
Catholicism, I mean that's the direction he's

1550
02:24:16.440 --> 02:24:20.639
head it. In Aasgar one forty
four is to incarnate a divine action,

1551
02:24:20.920 --> 02:24:24.959
correct, So what does this imply
for identity thesis and an eternal incarnation or

1552
02:24:26.000 --> 02:24:28.959
Patripassianism. Yeah, if God's an
absolutely simple essence, then it should be

1553
02:24:28.000 --> 02:24:31.600
the incarnate. It should be the
Divine Essence that incarnated. If person in

1554
02:24:31.719 --> 02:24:37.000
nature are absolutely identical, then uh
yeah, it would seem to follow the

1555
02:24:37.120 --> 02:24:39.399
Divine Essence became incarnate. But it's
not the Divine Essence, it's the Divine's

1556
02:24:39.399 --> 02:24:43.399
son who Again they all the whole
problem is that their order of theology is

1557
02:24:43.440 --> 02:24:48.319
wrong. They start with the Divine
Essence, they start with a absolutely simple

1558
02:24:48.360 --> 02:24:50.799
monad. They don't begin with the
person of the Father. And so go

1559
02:24:52.000 --> 02:24:56.239
watch doctor Bill Branson's lectures. It
will cure your Tomism. And I think

1560
02:24:56.319 --> 02:24:58.959
that's all the super chats heading over
to chalk dot com us the promo code J fifty