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M S s SS, spending the
most says really a most lives. I

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love spas, loves little space,
the spand spend the span new All right,

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what's up? What come everybody?
More of the stupid nonsense. So

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we're gonna do. I'm gonna play
these clips or eight clip and for the

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benefit of the audience, because most
people are not familiar with Tomism, they're

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not familiar with a lot of these
sort of scholastic nuances. I will be

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briefly pausing here and there to give
the references and the sources to their various

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papers that I am referring to.
So there's a couple of places where I

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want to pull up the Bradshaw book
for you guys, or the text for

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you guys. This is not his
book, airs Al Easton West. It's

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his paper from an Alogia Journal.
It's the concept of divine energies, which

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I think you have to get.
No, it's essence energy, what kind

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of distinction? That's it. It's
a separate paper. But I'm I'm trying

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to find the PDF link. What
because the first part of our discussion is

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about cat epanoia, which you actually
ended up agreeing on here. It is

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Okay, So I just want this
link ready for you guys, so I

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can give it to you in the
YouTube chat. It's one of those websites,

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but it's you can tell it.
It's like it's a legit link.

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I've done loaded it many times.
So I'll just tritt a bunch of coffee.

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So that's why I'm all acting weird. Here is the ink for the

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Bradshaw paper that comes up pretty early
in the discussion, and you know,

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Bradshaw goes into the different levels of
later Latin types of distinctions, but really

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none of this he's even that controversial, because we actually ended up agreeing for

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the first fifteen minutes of this discussion
on these points. So here is that

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link. There it is, and
what we're gonna do is it's not a

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very long clip. I'm gonna play
the clip. I'm gonna explain some of

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the ideas and topics and what he
was saying. And as you'll see,

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for about the first ten to fifteen
minutes, we basically just agreed because he

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was stating the Thomas position, and
this actually shows that we're on the same

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page. And what I've been saying
Tomasm says for many years is actually correct.

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So I don't think he had the
intention of demonstrating that I did accurately

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understand the Thomas position. But when
we go through the these points, it

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actually does show that. So it's
fine for the first fifteen minutes, and

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then it turns into discussion about the
divine ideas and the actualization of those ideas

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and pure act, and he tries
to pull from some distinctions and acquaint us

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in an Aristotle relating to imminent action
and transient action, which don't do the

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work that he thinks it does.
And we're going to show that that imminent

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activity and transient activity are a type
of distinction that can be made. But

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the problem is not does Tomism claim
that. So one thing that we'll notice,

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and this is my perpetual criticism of
Tomism, is that quite often,

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not in every case, but quite
often Tomism thinks that if you just keep

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stating and fleshing out the position,
that that constitutes an argument. And as

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we'll see, as we progress through
the discussion, and as he unfolds more

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and more the Tomas position, it's
not addressing the objection that's being made.

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He keeps adding new distinctions, and
he adds new things like the difference between

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an imminent action and a transient action. But that doesn't answer the question of

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when the fact that the divine ideas
are synonymous with the divine essence and thus

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necessary to just say, well,
but God is a personal being with will,

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and so he can will to actualize
whatever he wants. I understand,

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we understand that that is the Tomas
position. I know that you guys confess

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that God has a will. I
know that you don't believe that creation is

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necessary. I know that you don't
want to affirm what the modal collapse arguments

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say. We know that, But
the question is not do you have a

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position that says that God has free
will? The question is is that consistent

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with what you've said over here?
Those are two different things, and so

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so often because the way of the
way that Thomas think about argumentation and the

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way they think about systems, they
actually mistake the argument for the position with

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laying out the position. And that's
what we're gonna see. So I'll go

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ahead and start it. I think
a lot of you are going to be

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really disappointed. You were gonna be
all hyped up thinking that this was some

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like big gotcha and it's nothing.
And the reason that I left the discussion

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was because it got to the point
where I'd asked the same question about three

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or four times and he and I
said, this is all just bullshit,

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dude, I'm talking about the discussion
and he got all butt hurt about it

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and said, what are you talking
to me? It's such a way to

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its supped to be. It wasn't
an insult. It just said the conversation

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is bullshit. Okay, that's not
a personal insult on you. And so

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if it's at that point where it's
like and then what's the point? So

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here we go. We'll play it
and uh, this is there's so much

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of hubble over nothing basically right here. Okay, So we're gonna have a

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discussion today with Fanatic Tomas on the
topic of distinctions in God, the processions

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or generation and so forth, the
energies, what his views are, what

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our views are. So now that
we're recording, I'll let him go ahead

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and make his make his points.
Yeah, so hi everyone on Fanatic Tomas.

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You guys already know me from Twitter. My ad is schlastic Kicks.

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So the reason I agree to do
this discussion with Chase because it's so hard

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to do a discussion on Twitter it's
or limited characters, so it's fitter to

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have a yeah DC chat. So
anyways, my I'm a Tomas and I

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take to classical Thomas position on the
mine attributes the vine essence and the things

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of person the essence. So my
position is that there is a minor virtual

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distinction between the divine attributes to divine
essence and between the persons and the divine

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issse. However, there is a
major real distinction between the divine persons themselves.

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So the Father is really distinct from
the Sun because by the virtue of

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the real production as beginner to the
begotten, and the same applies to the

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spirit aspirator aspiated. Now, the
way the hash out this distinction is that

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the minor virtual distinction is a logical
distinctional rational distinction. It's called distinct your

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atsioni's. But this distinction is not
purely mental. So there's a difference between

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a purely mental distinction and virtual distinction. The purely mental distinction is only on

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the part of our intellect, whereas
the virtual distinction is both on the part

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of our intellect and on the part
of the thing itself insofar as the thing

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itself, in its richness, has
the virtue or power. That's why it's

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all the virtual distinction. It doesn't
power are present itself to your mind through

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different aspects to An example of this
would be rationality and animality. So rationality

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and animality are are not really distinct
because man is rational and animal by one

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and the same entity. But just
because you have animality, it doesn't mean

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that you have rationality, So you
can have one without the other. But

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the converse does not all true.
Now it's called a mid major ritual distinction

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because you have animality and you have
rationality, but animality does not include rationality

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necessarily. There's another kind of distinction
called minor virtual distinction. This is called

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minor virtual distinction because it's not after
the manner of excluding and excluded, like

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rational animal, but implicit and explicit
insofar as concept of attributes implicitly include each

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other. So we can give the
example of transcendentals. Each of them implicitly

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include the other. So for example, truth and being ends veritas, those

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are Yeah, so I forgot it. I didn't notice that that was muted

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because I was playing the clip.
Yeah, I apologize for guys. I'll

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just kind of add that in later
the audio part. But basically what I

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was saying in summation is that everything
that's going on here is not that controversial.

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We pretty much agree he's when he's
talking about the minor virtual distinctions.

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He's talking about how at Hoomis conceives
of the attributes as all basically in reality

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identical and synonymous, but in our
conception we make distinctions. Right. So

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he says that a minor virtual distinction
does have some basis in the thing itself

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in reality, but it's not telling
you ontologically what that thing is like.

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It's only telling you to use this
phrase. It's looking to propose that to

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the mind, and then the mind, as he phrases it, struggles to

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capture this reality of God's unity in
a bunch of conceptual distinctions. Right.

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So that's what he means by a
minor virtual distinction. And why is that

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Because all of the attributes are actually
in reality synonymous with the divine essence and

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reducible to the divine essence. So
in this debate, this is actually called

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identity thesis. And what I was
saying a minute ago was that the major

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real distinction is what he believes about
the persons, right, the Tomas position

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believes that the persons in the triad
are major real distinctions. We believe that

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that's not controversial. We agree with
that. We don't affirm this. And

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this is the point. When Basil
argues that the energies are just as distinct

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as the persons in the triad,
then it's it's just as real for the

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energies. And so the later scholastic
distinctions that come up in the Middle Ages

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that in the Bradshaw text that I
linked you, they're they're not that relevant

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for the Kappa nocean distinctions. And
basically in Tomasm, we don't have a

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problem with this, except that the
attributes can't be This is what we're gonna

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say. We would hold the real
distinction or what they're calling a major real

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distinction also for the energies you see, and not just the energies amongst themselves,

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but also the energies as distinct from
the essence. And I've got to

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press him on those points, but
I hopefully hopefully we're seeing that right now.

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He's just laying out the Tumas position, and I agree with him,

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and what this demonstrates is that I've
accurately understood and present the Tumas position.

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There wasn't misunderstanding. There wasn't me
trying to be deceptive. In the history

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of these discussions, if you go
back to the debate or the discussion that

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I have with classical theists, I
mean, we basically had this same structure,

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right, We had me saying that
the Thomas conception of the attributes is

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conceptual, but it's not the position
of the Cappadocians, right, because the

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Cappadocians think that the distinction in the
energies is just as quote real as a

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distinction between the hypostasies. So there's
a departure, there's a difference in this

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view, and we'll let him continue
here implicitly include each other. And this

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is a kind of distinction that if
you paus it between the divine attributes and

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the dvine essence and among the attributes
himsell and between the person is in the

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essence. So so this twofold foundation
is first on the part of the think

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itself, insofar as the divine essence, in its supreme eminence and simplicity becaussesses

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all these perfections, not as really
distinct attributes, but has one, so

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so there he's stating this that the
reality of the divine essence is beyond our

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comprehension, and so the various attributes
cannot in reality be distinct realities. The

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Palamite synods actually use that terminology to
contrast themselves to Tomism when the toe most

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defines it as distinct realities. The
reality that is Providence is not and cannot

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be identical to the reality that is
love or the reality of this glory and

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God. That's the real distinction or
what they're calling a major real distinction.

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So again when it comes to hypostases, we all agree major real distinction.

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Cappadocians call that a real distinction.
Cat Epanoia is referring to that in Basil's

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uses, because cat ipanoia, for
Basil is not strictly always purely conceptual.

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Sometimes it refers to something conceptual and
real at the same time. And so

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what the Thomas is calling the major
distinction between the persons is equivalent to what

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Basil talks about when he talks about
a real distinction. What they're talking about

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as pure cat epenoia or purely conceptual
distinction is what they're calling their minor virtual

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right. And that's only applicable to
the divine attributes and actions because in God,

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in Thomism, God is act as
purists or pure act right, so

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there's not potential, there's not unrealized
capacity in God. God is purely second

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actuality. And that will come up
here in a moment. God is one

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and God is powerful, and God
is knowing game, God is feeling by

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one and the same thing, which
is a divine issies. But since the

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objective, but you'll notice he made
the statement there that the minor virtual distinction

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is grounded in the thing. So
the distinction is grounded in it, but

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not actually ontologically present in it.
It's only grounded in it in our conception

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of it. You see, That's
what's meant by minor virtual. But what

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I press him on here in a
moment is that, as Palamoss press barleym,

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the distinctions then in those terms actually
come to mean nothing. They're they're

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only relative to human understanding and conceptual
conceptualization, and thus we don't actually know

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what foreknowledge is or what providence is
different or distinct from love and glory if

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they're just human conceptual categories and foreknowledge, and these things don't actually correspond to

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realities. Then they're all basically blended
together in the modal collapse point. So

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I understand them. But you'll notice
that as I keep pressing these points,

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he doesn't addres rest that objection.
He just states more of the tomistic positions

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and views, never addressing the point
form of concepts of these attitudes differ.

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It has a foundation in the thing
itself, but that foundation is potential,

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and it's looking towards in mind to
present itself or in other words, to

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impose itselfable. So notice there that
he said that the foundation of the minor

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virtual distinction in God is looking really
to impose that elsewhere in the human mind.

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So it's not an act. It's
not a distinction that's actually grounded in

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the thing. So in other words, when we start listening divine attributes,

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and this is the Palami critique,
the divine attributes begin to lose their meaning

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because they're in reality synonymous. But
when I press them on this, you'll

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see where he goes with it.
So let's say that we have divine providence,

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right, and we have glory,
and we have love. Right,

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here's some of divine attributes. The
problem is that certain attributes only apply to

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the created order, and the answer
of the Thomas will be to simply restrict

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these attributes to causal effects in the
created order. But providence is not a

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causal effect. Providence is an operation
or action or energy or attribute of God.

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But you'll notice as we as I
press this issue and keep pressing it,

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it keeps getting cashed out as Thomas
always do as God cause and creature

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effect, creature effect, never addressing
the actual objection, which is that the

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question is what is providence? Qua
providence? I'm not asking you to tell

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me that you think it's a cause
and effect relation. I already know that

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everything in Tomism, when it comes
to these attributes then gets cashed out as

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cause and effect. So when I
ask him what is providence, he's going

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to explain that that is something that
is a it relates only to the created

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order, and it's a created effect
that is an eternal thing in the divine

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mind. But that's not going to
work because providence, love, glory,

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and the divine ideas are not just
capacities in the divine mind that God wills

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or to not create. And why
is that? Because the divine will is

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synonymous with the divine essence, which
he will call necessary. That's the key

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point here. So I'm not asking
him if he believes that God has a

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will and that he chooses which reality
he wants to actualize and create. I

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know he believes that. The objection
is that it's not consistent with the way

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he's cashed out divine simplicit city and
identifying and calling all the divine attributes synonymous.

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Because if these words are to have
any meaning, and we're going to

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say that divine providence is also what
eternal, because he's going to say that

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all of these are also eternal,
then how does God have divine providence as

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a pure actual as a pure act
Remember there's not a capacity, there's there's

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no first actuality in God and tomism. Providence has to be actualized as an

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attribute, just as much as glory
or love is actualized, right because God

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is pure act act as purists,
and the problem is that he's that eternally

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and so when we start listing different
types of attributes. This goes back to

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the area in debate with Saint Athanasius
and the Arians the power of creating.

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He's basically going to end up saying
that the power of creating is an eternal

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capacity, but it only is realized
in the temporal effects. But God has

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no capacities, and he says,
yes, correct, God has no capacities.

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All God's powers are realized because he
believes in pure act God is pure

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acts. So if he's pure act
there's no potentiality, there's no capacities that

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are not actualized, and hence God
does not have first actuality. God is

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pure second actuality, which is pure
error, gone, pure work, pure

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act Right do we see so far
how this is working out? So I'm

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going to start pressing him on,
well, how can all of these be

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synonymous and eternal? And then you're
going to start restricting certain attributes to in

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the divine mind. But if it's
in the divine mind, then he doesn't

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actualize all the potentialities are all all
the possible worlds. Now, there's capacities

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in God. And they'll say no, no, it doesn't work because there's

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also imminence and transient and there's imminent
acts and transitive acts. But as we're

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going to say that, to talk
about imminent actions and transitive actions transient actions

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is not actually going to work either, because the divine ideas do not,

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according to Quinas, relate to act
in the same way as transient act does.

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In fact, the divine ideas are
just as eternal and necessary as everything

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else in God. And so if
the divine will is equivalent to the divine

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essence, and is also equivalent to
eternity, and is also equivalent to necessity,

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which you will say, is God's
a necessary being, and God's attributes

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are also necessary, then the action
of creating is necessary, which he says,

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yes, but not in the effect. That's bypassing the issue. The

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question was not do you think the
effects are temporal? The question was the

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act itself, the power of creating, to act to create. I know

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that you think creation is temporal,
but I'm asking about the action of creating,

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which is not the same thing as
the eternal manifestation of glory or love,

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because one pertains to the created order
and is relevant only to creation.

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On that mind and then and the
second foundation is the foundation on the part

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of our intellect. So then we
actually consider the object, that thing which

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has the virtue or character presents itself, that actually presents itself, And now

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mind captures that distinction. And so
the first foundation is in the thing itself

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and in the case of God,
the divine necess and the second foundation is

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on the part of our intellect,
which is unable to grasp the simple,

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single, simple entity by one concept, so has to consider it by various

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concepts. I think that's enough.
Yeah, And so none of that is

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even controversial in regards to what Thomasm
teaches, and it's what I've always said,

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Thomas teach right. But by the
way, God is not an absolutely

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simple, single being. God is
a triad, and he's known as triad.

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God exists in the mode of triad, not in the mode of absolutely

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simple monad. And anybody who knows
the Cappadocians, and I mean the Trinitarian

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theology of their communical counsels, would
know that everything that he just stated there

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about God is completely foreign to the
Cappadocians and the way that they go about

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Trinitarian theology. I have a question
on that. So, when you're describing

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the minor virtual and you said that
the foundation in regard to the abtributes in

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the thing itself, that it really
is some type of distinction that looks to

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impose itself on our minds, And
I'm what exactly is the nature of the

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distinction itself in that in your view? Make sure if the distinction you mean

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bitter is his real or between say, providence and divine glory. Oh okay,

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so between your providence and divine glory
there exists and minor virtual distinction,

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right, but yeah, which which
has a foundation? The thing is said,

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But there's a distinction God which has
no foundation. And that's and he

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says, which does have a basis
in the thing itself. That's what I'm

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concerned with that phrase, because the
argument is that in minor virtual distinctions they're

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only conceptual. Well, if they're
only conceptual, there's not actually a justification

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for claiming that. But it also
has a basis in the thing itself,

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because you don't actually know that these
attributes match up to anything in the thing

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00:35:50,880 --> 00:35:52,360
itself. I know you're saying that. I know you believe it on the

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00:35:52,400 --> 00:35:55,320
basis of cause and effect. I
know that. But the point is that

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if all of these attributes are synonymous, then you don't really have a conception

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00:36:00,079 --> 00:36:06,360
of what they are in terms of
their definitions. So providence is not actually

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00:36:06,480 --> 00:36:14,199
in reality different from glory, it's
only different in our conceptions. And if

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that's the case, then you can
total all of these up and make them

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00:36:19,159 --> 00:36:24,440
come possible, and they don't tell
you anything at all because they're interchangeable.

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They don't necessarily match up to the
being that is describing. That's Palomas's critique

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00:36:31,760 --> 00:36:38,440
against Barlam in the debate with the
Barlamon. So I'm well aware that you

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00:36:38,559 --> 00:36:45,960
believe that these are minor virtual distinctions, and I'm well aware that you think

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in human conception that we can talk
about these in different ways, but it's

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not addressing the actual question of how
do you know that that matches up to

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00:37:00,159 --> 00:37:04,960
anything in God? Because all you
know these things by are created effects.

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In Tomism, all you know when
it comes to providence, glory, divine

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00:37:10,440 --> 00:37:21,360
love is the created effect that signifies
something quote grounded in that being beyond the

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00:37:21,480 --> 00:37:27,280
veil of the created effects. But
how do you know, other than to

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just restate Tomaism that love or glory
is actually telling you something about God?

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You don't. That's why Paloma says
this leads to atheism because there's no direct

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00:37:38,800 --> 00:37:45,039
participation and real experience of the energies
of love and glory. Remember in tomaism,

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00:37:45,119 --> 00:37:51,679
you are only experiencing various created effects. And if they are various created

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00:37:51,719 --> 00:37:58,639
effects which signify these realities, they're
not actually realities plural they are a different

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00:37:58,760 --> 00:38:05,000
mode of being, which is a
pure, single spiritual monad that does not

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00:38:05,280 --> 00:38:10,679
bear a similarity to the multiplicity of
attributes. So wait a minute. If

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00:38:10,719 --> 00:38:14,440
it doesn't bear that similarity similarity,
how do we know it. Oh,

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because the effect bears a similarity to
the cause. But that's just restating what's

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00:38:21,280 --> 00:38:22,880
in question. How do you know
that the effect bears a similarity to the

303
00:38:22,920 --> 00:38:25,960
cause. Oh, well, that's
what Thomas says. You see, that's

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00:38:27,079 --> 00:38:31,239
what Aristotle says. Yeah, but
I'm challenging on this view how you would

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00:38:31,320 --> 00:38:37,840
know that. You can assert that, but you've also asserted that the motive

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existence of the divine essence does not
correspond to this multiplicity reality. Furthermore,

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00:38:46,320 --> 00:38:52,000
we go back to the modal collapse
question about creating, and I'm going to

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00:38:52,119 --> 00:38:52,880
keep pressing him on this show,
and you'll see how he answers that.

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00:38:54,679 --> 00:38:58,079
Well, you'll see how he doesn't
answer it in action. So, for

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00:38:58,199 --> 00:39:02,760
example, God's knowledge, God's acts
of knowing have no our only purely mentally

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00:39:02,920 --> 00:39:07,800
sting right as God's knowledge and vil
I understand that, yeah, yeah,

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00:39:07,800 --> 00:39:13,119
because that's that would be required by
actors purist right, Yeah, because you

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00:39:13,199 --> 00:39:15,880
don't believe that God has so the
humans have the power. Right. So

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00:39:16,519 --> 00:39:21,599
do we see that I'm agreeing when
he states the temas position, So I've

315
00:39:21,679 --> 00:39:24,760
understood the temas position. Yeah,
yeah, so we agree. I mean,

316
00:39:24,760 --> 00:39:29,199
I agree that I understand that your
position holds that. Let's go back

317
00:39:29,280 --> 00:39:31,320
though to that minor virtual because what
I'm what I'm trying to understand from you

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00:39:31,639 --> 00:39:37,760
is sure what exactly you said?
There is a foundation in the thing itself?

319
00:39:37,559 --> 00:39:40,079
Yeah, and you listed two things. The third the first thing I

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00:39:40,159 --> 00:39:45,239
heard you say was it it looks
to impose that on our minds, and

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00:39:45,320 --> 00:39:52,840
then secondly our mind captures it.
So remember without assuming an analogia. But

322
00:39:53,000 --> 00:40:00,639
remember God's essence, right, is
not like creatures. How do we know

323
00:40:00,760 --> 00:40:05,679
that the analogue loggia holds to the
divine essence? Well, and if you

324
00:40:05,760 --> 00:40:09,400
read Whipple, Whipple starts to give
different examples from a quinas to show that

325
00:40:10,000 --> 00:40:15,159
there's a similarity between the cause and
the effect. He says, though there's

326
00:40:15,199 --> 00:40:17,880
a divine ideas, and then he
says, there's the principle that every effect

327
00:40:19,039 --> 00:40:22,440
bears some similarity to its origin and
to its cause. We wait a minute,

328
00:40:22,440 --> 00:40:27,039
that's the thing in question, though, Now in the created order,

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00:40:27,360 --> 00:40:30,760
I guess that might make sense.
A son gives rise to a father gives

330
00:40:30,840 --> 00:40:36,400
rise to a son. Human being
bears some analogy or some there's some similarity

331
00:40:36,480 --> 00:40:40,480
between those two temporal causes. But
in the way that Tomasm describes God's essence,

332
00:40:40,760 --> 00:40:47,079
it is not like creatures. It
is not temporal, It is not

333
00:40:47,360 --> 00:40:52,199
changeable, it is not passable,
it is not composed, it is not

334
00:40:52,320 --> 00:40:57,280
acted upon, etcetera, etcetera,
etcetera. And so every way that it's

335
00:40:57,320 --> 00:41:02,840
cashed out is actually opposite the created
reality. So the question is, then,

336
00:41:02,960 --> 00:41:07,320
if tomism is consistent with its view
of simplicity, on what basis is

337
00:41:07,360 --> 00:41:15,000
there a similarity or an analogia between
the creative principle of love and the divine

338
00:41:15,199 --> 00:41:21,400
essence is love because love is the
divine essence And Thomas, what is the

339
00:41:21,480 --> 00:41:27,280
reality? Oh, it's an analogia. Okay, so you're saying there's analogy,

340
00:41:28,280 --> 00:41:31,760
but the way that you've cashed out
divine simplicity and divine essence doesn't seem

341
00:41:31,800 --> 00:41:37,039
to allow for analogy, because the
mode of divine essence is not at all

342
00:41:37,159 --> 00:41:44,440
like creatures and their multiplicity. So
when you call these different names, you're

343
00:41:44,519 --> 00:41:50,239
basically saying nothing about what's behind the
created causal veil. It's a very simple

344
00:41:50,280 --> 00:41:52,960
objection. I don't understand why Tomas
have such a propt with this, and

345
00:41:52,079 --> 00:41:59,679
their answer is to just repeat tomism
that every effect has a similarity to its

346
00:41:59,719 --> 00:42:02,239
cause. Every effect And it's like, I know you claim that, but

347
00:42:02,360 --> 00:42:06,679
we want to know the argument to
prove that. Well, it's just self

348
00:42:06,719 --> 00:42:10,880
oathernent principle. Arosols better physics a
self otheran principal. So you cite Ariostole

349
00:42:12,039 --> 00:42:15,239
as the source exactly, But the
question is, how do we know Aerostol

350
00:42:15,360 --> 00:42:17,480
is right about it? Maybe it
is right. I'm not saying it's wrong.

351
00:42:19,760 --> 00:42:22,320
I actually do believe in the principle
of cause and effect and that yeah,

352
00:42:22,519 --> 00:42:27,320
an effect bears a similarity to its
cause. But you can't move from

353
00:42:27,559 --> 00:42:31,119
the created order of the similarity between
a son and a father and then just

354
00:42:31,280 --> 00:42:37,239
assume that, oh, well that
holds in the uncreated supernatural realm as well.

355
00:42:37,760 --> 00:42:39,239
I mean, on what basis does
that hold? How do you know

356
00:42:39,440 --> 00:42:45,719
because every way that you've cashed out
God's attributes accent, simplicity, and Tomism

357
00:42:45,480 --> 00:42:50,599
is opposite creatures. Well, if
God has cashed out opposite creatures, and

358
00:42:50,679 --> 00:42:58,880
I argue that he is intemism,
how is their end? The loggia and

359
00:42:59,000 --> 00:43:04,840
all of these arguments presuppose anialgiin now
in the Orthodox view, because the divine

360
00:43:04,960 --> 00:43:07,440
essence is not like creatures, bears
no similarity to creatures. As Paul says

361
00:43:07,480 --> 00:43:12,679
in Acts seventeen, how do we
have the ability to predicate of God?

362
00:43:13,159 --> 00:43:16,079
Well, Basil answers that, and
Basil says that the energies come down to

363
00:43:16,280 --> 00:43:22,440
us. And it's not just energies
that are conceptual categories that allow us to

364
00:43:22,559 --> 00:43:27,239
name God. It's the same energy
that Dionysius talks about that we participate in.

365
00:43:28,599 --> 00:43:34,079
They're not created realities. Divine glory
is not a creature. When Jesus

366
00:43:34,079 --> 00:43:36,920
said in John seventeen that he would
make us partakers of the glory that he

367
00:43:37,000 --> 00:43:39,159
had with the Father before the foundation
of the world, that's not a created

368
00:43:39,199 --> 00:43:45,239
reality. It's an uncreated reality.
The Eucharist conveys to us uncreated grace and

369
00:43:45,360 --> 00:43:52,320
energy. Tomism and Rome Catholicism do
not believe that, and it's consistent with

370
00:43:52,400 --> 00:43:55,679
their position on the attributes, because
it's not just a question of how do

371
00:43:55,800 --> 00:44:00,440
we list these attributes and conceive them
as systematic theology in our mind, it's

372
00:44:00,480 --> 00:44:06,440
a question of what are we participating
in? Are we participating in uncreated glory

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00:44:07,360 --> 00:44:09,519
or a supernatural accident in the soul, as Little God says, as Roman

374
00:44:09,599 --> 00:44:15,800
Callagdogma says. So the Roman Calic
position is that grace is a supernatural creature

375
00:44:15,880 --> 00:44:19,599
in the soul. So these are
not just questions of God's relation to the

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00:44:19,679 --> 00:44:24,360
created order. There are questions of
grace and salvation. And Roman Catholicism teaches

377
00:44:24,400 --> 00:44:32,719
that grace strictly speaking, what you're
participating in is it created reality. But

378
00:44:32,840 --> 00:44:37,480
what is the nature of the distinction
quad distinction the thing? And what is

379
00:44:37,519 --> 00:44:43,159
that distinction that's that is in the
object? In the object, So you

380
00:44:43,159 --> 00:44:46,119
would see that the real virtual distinction
is a real distinction, not in the

381
00:44:46,920 --> 00:44:51,480
minor virtual What is the what is
that? Yeah, I'm a destriving minor

382
00:44:51,559 --> 00:44:57,159
ritual minor virtual distinction is a real
distinction because it's exists in the thing itself.

383
00:44:57,679 --> 00:45:00,599
What is the nature of that distinction. Yeah, yeah, he's asserting

384
00:45:00,679 --> 00:45:04,000
that. I want to know how
he knows that. How can he actually

385
00:45:04,119 --> 00:45:07,440
say these things? Right? I
know that's the Tumbus position. We understand

386
00:45:07,480 --> 00:45:12,840
that that the attributes are minor virtual
distinctions. I'm going to explain that it's

387
00:45:12,920 --> 00:45:17,679
real listening in the thing it'sself,
but it's not true as having diverse realities

388
00:45:17,800 --> 00:45:22,159
contained in it. But yeah,
which we already know. So he's again

389
00:45:22,280 --> 00:45:25,760
just stating the thumbs position that in
God providence, glory and love are not

390
00:45:25,880 --> 00:45:31,039
actually distinct, They're only distinct in
our conception. So so it's not okay,

391
00:45:31,360 --> 00:45:37,280
So so it's not a diverse reality, so it's not. Yeah,

392
00:45:37,360 --> 00:45:42,920
of course, minor virtual is essentially
still conceptual. But you're saying that it

393
00:45:43,039 --> 00:45:46,239
has a basis in the thing itself, but you can't but what is the

394
00:45:46,320 --> 00:45:51,760
name? What is the basis in
the thing itself? Yeah, the basis

395
00:45:51,960 --> 00:45:55,440
is its eminent simplicity, which,
oh, but wait a minute, So

396
00:45:55,599 --> 00:46:05,719
the basis for the multiple attributes multiple
at is the imminent simplicity. Imminent simplicity

397
00:46:05,880 --> 00:46:12,079
is not like the diversity of the
attributes, is it? So the thing

398
00:46:12,199 --> 00:46:15,039
that I've asked him for the basis. You're saying that it does have an

399
00:46:15,079 --> 00:46:20,559
origin in God. It does have
an the many attributes has some point of

400
00:46:20,639 --> 00:46:27,840
origin actually in God. But that
point of origin is a radical simplicity that

401
00:46:28,039 --> 00:46:30,880
is not like creatures and is not
like distinct things. Because in Tomasm,

402
00:46:30,960 --> 00:46:38,840
distinction entails composition and division. So
I'm asking him a very precise question about

403
00:46:38,880 --> 00:46:44,679
Wait a minute, you've said that
there is some basis in the thing itself,

404
00:46:44,760 --> 00:46:50,000
in God for these distinctions. I
ask him what is it? He

405
00:46:50,159 --> 00:46:54,519
says, the simplicity of God.
That doesn't answer the question. Do you

406
00:46:54,599 --> 00:47:00,719
see that the simplicity of God is
not like the many things we're listing here,

407
00:47:00,159 --> 00:47:04,960
So it's not grounded in that thing. And then he'll just start saying,

408
00:47:05,079 --> 00:47:07,480
but it is, and let me
define more Tomism for you. Okay,

409
00:47:07,519 --> 00:47:14,239
So simplicity, though, is not
a basis for distinction. Yeah.

410
00:47:14,320 --> 00:47:17,280
Yeah, The basis is in the
divine is which is simple. It contains

411
00:47:17,320 --> 00:47:22,119
all these perfections. Oh wait a
minute, the divine essence, which is

412
00:47:22,199 --> 00:47:27,960
simple, contains these perfections plural.
But the perfections plural are not actually in

413
00:47:28,079 --> 00:47:30,639
the thing. Those are in our
mind. So now he's going back and

414
00:47:30,719 --> 00:47:34,440
forth again. You see it.
So first he said the basis was the

415
00:47:34,519 --> 00:47:38,960
absolute simplicity of God. Now he's
saying it's the perfections plural, but it's

416
00:47:39,000 --> 00:47:43,199
it can't be both, and he
knows that. The question I'm asking is,

417
00:47:43,880 --> 00:47:52,199
you're predicating multiplicity to something that contains
no multiplicity. And you've already said

418
00:47:52,239 --> 00:47:57,159
that that multiplicity only applies in human
conception. But you said that it is

419
00:47:57,320 --> 00:48:00,960
grounded in the thing. So saying
that it's the thing basically amounts to saying

420
00:48:01,079 --> 00:48:07,400
nothing, you see sist. Those
perfections have a different object to formal concepts.

421
00:48:08,360 --> 00:48:12,880
They cannot be identified in concept with
each other. So there's a foundation

422
00:48:12,960 --> 00:48:15,679
that things. I understand, so, but you said, but you said

423
00:48:16,159 --> 00:48:20,719
so. Then he just goes back
back to restating that they're not identical in

424
00:48:20,800 --> 00:48:24,199
human conception. We know that.
We've always known that. I've been saying

425
00:48:24,280 --> 00:48:29,400
that for fifteen freaking years since I
left a stupid system, And he just

426
00:48:29,559 --> 00:48:31,719
reached again. You're gonna notice all
these people who thought there was some big

427
00:48:31,760 --> 00:48:36,880
own, Oh you got owned today. The whole discussion is this. It's

428
00:48:36,920 --> 00:48:42,360
a big bugaboo of nothing and nothing
ever getting answered. Now I give him

429
00:48:42,360 --> 00:48:45,119
credit just in the fact that in
the first ten to fifteen minutes, we're

430
00:48:45,199 --> 00:48:51,159
basically just agreeing on what Thomism says. So I give him credit for just

431
00:48:51,840 --> 00:48:55,079
accurately saying Tomism. That's great.
Finally, finally we have Thomas. He's

432
00:48:55,119 --> 00:48:59,519
not the only one, but finally
we have Thomas who are accurately presenting Tomism.

433
00:49:00,199 --> 00:49:04,159
What do we see? We are
agreeing on what Tomasm says all the

434
00:49:04,199 --> 00:49:09,760
way up until about maybe fifteen minutes
in. So that means that I've accurately

435
00:49:09,800 --> 00:49:16,199
been saying what Thomas em says.
I'm at lied about Tomaism. You might

436
00:49:16,320 --> 00:49:21,400
disagree with me, but I'm not
intentionally trying to mis represent Thomas. I

437
00:49:21,440 --> 00:49:23,719
actually have. These are the reasons
why I don't believe the system anymore.

438
00:49:23,760 --> 00:49:27,920
I quit believing it. I mean, there's many reasons, these are some

439
00:49:27,960 --> 00:49:34,000
of the key reasons. So I
keep pressing specific questions and they will not

440
00:49:34,119 --> 00:49:37,760
be answered. You see, you'll
see that in the thing itself there is

441
00:49:37,840 --> 00:49:40,880
a basis for the distinction. But
by basis, you're saying the basis is

442
00:49:40,960 --> 00:49:45,039
in our head virtually right. No, No, there's a two fold basis

443
00:49:45,119 --> 00:49:49,400
in the thing itself and in our
online What is the nature of the base.

444
00:49:49,760 --> 00:49:52,440
What is the nature of the basis
of the thing itself? What is

445
00:49:52,480 --> 00:49:57,480
the nature of the distinction that he
says it's grounded in the thing, and

446
00:49:57,599 --> 00:50:00,280
it impresses upon our mind. Our
mind tries to grasp it. That's the

447
00:50:00,360 --> 00:50:04,599
twofold basis. We understand, that's
the position. And this is every discussion

448
00:50:04,639 --> 00:50:08,199
with A Thomas. Everything just comes
back to them restating the position twenty thirty

449
00:50:08,280 --> 00:50:13,239
times. So when I leave,
it's not because he stumped me. It's

450
00:50:13,320 --> 00:50:17,199
because the same question goes on for
the After about the fifteen minute mark,

451
00:50:19,039 --> 00:50:22,719
it gets asked about three or four
times, and since it's not going anywhere,

452
00:50:22,719 --> 00:50:25,000
and he just keeps introducing things that
don't answer the objection, I just

453
00:50:25,199 --> 00:50:29,599
left. But I didn't just leave
because of that. I left because he

454
00:50:29,719 --> 00:50:35,320
got all butt hurt when I said
that the conversation was BS. I didn't

455
00:50:35,320 --> 00:50:37,719
say he was bullshit. I said
the conversation is And then he acted like

456
00:50:37,840 --> 00:50:40,719
he was all, Oh, you
cushion at me, you hood my feeling.

457
00:50:42,280 --> 00:50:49,119
Here are the here's the crusaders right
with his with this uh not testosterone

458
00:50:49,119 --> 00:50:52,039
based voice that he has of the
distinction in itself and the thing itself.

459
00:50:53,079 --> 00:50:58,760
I just told you what it's.
It's yeah, it's the power the champ

460
00:50:58,800 --> 00:51:02,719
present itself to them. So I
asked him for the basis of the multiplicity

461
00:51:04,199 --> 00:51:06,840
that he says is grounded in the
thing, which is not really in the

462
00:51:06,920 --> 00:51:09,800
thing. The distinctions are not really
in God. Between the attributes, I

463
00:51:09,880 --> 00:51:13,840
said, what is the basis for
that? The power that it has to

464
00:51:13,960 --> 00:51:19,840
press to present thisself to our minds, that is not a grounding. That's

465
00:51:19,920 --> 00:51:22,920
just restating what you think it does
in this causal scheme of cause and effect.

466
00:51:27,559 --> 00:51:32,679
It's a causal relation of the created
effects impressing upon our mind some similarity

467
00:51:32,800 --> 00:51:43,800
to God as the cause. But
it's not addressing the objection that how do

468
00:51:43,880 --> 00:51:46,480
you know? And on what basis
is it grounded in the thing? You're

469
00:51:46,519 --> 00:51:52,960
just stating that. And at no
point in this discussion, as it keeps,

470
00:51:52,039 --> 00:51:55,119
the can will keep getting kicked down
the road, at no point will

471
00:51:55,199 --> 00:52:01,519
the objections that I'm giving your actual
arguments that if then if you believe this,

472
00:52:01,960 --> 00:52:06,280
then you should believe this. How
do you? Oh? Thomasm says

473
00:52:06,360 --> 00:52:09,320
this, Yeah, I know what
your position says. Address the objection.

474
00:52:12,000 --> 00:52:15,719
That's the power, that's that's something
directed towards us, and you're saying that

475
00:52:15,800 --> 00:52:17,920
it's in the thing itself. So
this amounts to not not any kind of

476
00:52:17,960 --> 00:52:23,719
distinction. He's going to repeat that
it's a conceptual distinction. I know that

477
00:52:24,760 --> 00:52:29,840
the point is that it's not telling
us anything. It's not telling us anything.

478
00:52:29,880 --> 00:52:32,559
To say that, well, it
just there's a power in the thing

479
00:52:32,639 --> 00:52:38,159
that impresses upon us. Yeah,
but the power and the thing is singular.

480
00:52:38,719 --> 00:52:45,519
Power is singular. These are plural, So the pluralities are not.

481
00:52:45,719 --> 00:52:52,039
Actually, when we define these words
love, glory, providence, the meanings

482
00:52:52,079 --> 00:52:58,440
of those words is not synonymous,
are they Can everyone understand this, Love

483
00:52:58,599 --> 00:53:01,239
and glory and providence are not defined
in the same way there, They have

484
00:53:01,400 --> 00:53:06,719
different definitions. So if the definitions
of those words are going to actually tell

485
00:53:06,800 --> 00:53:13,000
us anything, they cannot be referring
to something that is totally unlike that multiple

486
00:53:13,119 --> 00:53:17,320
reality. Well, it's not totally
unlike that. There's an analogia. That's

487
00:53:17,360 --> 00:53:21,079
the thing that's in question. How
do you know there's an analog gear without

488
00:53:21,079 --> 00:53:24,480
just asserting it. And all of
tomism, all of classical foundationalism, all

489
00:53:24,519 --> 00:53:30,559
of this recitilient stuff is just based
on those assertions that it is so,

490
00:53:31,559 --> 00:53:36,079
and Father Deacon has a great paper
where he points out that how do we

491
00:53:36,199 --> 00:53:38,559
know that it's I mean, we
understand that you're asserting these things, and

492
00:53:38,679 --> 00:53:49,000
this is Palomas's objection to Barlan.
Yeah, not so it's not a distinction

493
00:53:49,079 --> 00:53:52,159
at all. No, it's a
virtual distinction. I'm telling you that it's

494
00:53:52,159 --> 00:53:58,400
not any distinction sense that you haven't. Yeah, that's not real by in

495
00:53:58,480 --> 00:54:00,920
this, in the sense of when
we delineate the attributes themselves. I know

496
00:54:01,000 --> 00:54:04,480
what the position is. That's what
I've always said the position is. So

497
00:54:04,840 --> 00:54:09,000
the question then is would you then
say that divine glory is identical to divine

498
00:54:09,039 --> 00:54:16,559
providence. It's identical materially enough formally
well, so wait, in God there's

499
00:54:16,639 --> 00:54:22,679
material and formal distinctions. No,
material and formal distinction is basically identity that

500
00:54:22,760 --> 00:54:28,920
works and everything mad and everything.
But hold on, material we're talking about

501
00:54:28,960 --> 00:54:32,119
in God? Yeah, you can
go matter informed did not apply to God

502
00:54:32,280 --> 00:54:37,559
materiality inform matter. So he's avoiding
he's beginning to avoid where I'm going with

503
00:54:37,719 --> 00:54:42,079
us. Of course, So there's
a material identity in God, which means

504
00:54:42,159 --> 00:54:47,440
that identity in reality, but there's
not a formal identity meaning them So there's

505
00:54:47,480 --> 00:54:52,960
a there's a conceptual distinction between divine
glory and divine providence, but in reality,

506
00:54:54,159 --> 00:54:59,159
in reality as a material identity is
they're not right, That's what I'm

507
00:54:59,239 --> 00:55:04,519
in. If you said that,
then you're wrong, But you're right.

508
00:55:04,760 --> 00:55:13,719
Yep. Yeah. Are they both
eternal? The providence and glory? Providence

509
00:55:14,159 --> 00:55:16,679
in so far as it's considered as
an act of intellection and milition, yes,

510
00:55:16,840 --> 00:55:24,440
insofar as it's concerned. Start introducing
the distinction between something that's purely a

511
00:55:24,519 --> 00:55:30,559
divine intellectual intellection versus something that's an
actualized thing. But the problem is that

512
00:55:30,840 --> 00:55:36,400
that's not what providence and the divine
idea is equate to. Right, there's

513
00:55:36,440 --> 00:55:40,280
no such thing as God having capacities
or things in his mind that he doesn't

514
00:55:40,320 --> 00:55:45,599
realize, because the divine ideas are
synonymous with the divine essence. And I'll

515
00:55:45,599 --> 00:55:50,440
show you that in the in the
Semihar in a second execution. Oh so

516
00:55:50,920 --> 00:55:57,199
God has not actualized all these capacities. No, Look, so did you

517
00:55:57,239 --> 00:56:01,239
hear what he said there? Did
you catch that? There is in the

518
00:56:01,320 --> 00:56:08,119
divine mind providence as an intellection,
but he does not necessarily execute divine providence.

519
00:56:08,280 --> 00:56:12,719
Now wait a minute, but providence
is a divine operation. It's not

520
00:56:12,840 --> 00:56:15,760
a purely intellectual operation. Right,
It's an attribute that he just said was

521
00:56:15,800 --> 00:56:20,920
synonymous with these other attributes. But
now he wants to introduce a distinction between

522
00:56:22,960 --> 00:56:28,719
operations or actions that are imminent in
God that are not equivalent to the external

523
00:56:29,079 --> 00:56:35,679
effect or actualization. But that's bypassing
and avoiding what the question is. The

524
00:56:35,800 --> 00:56:39,440
question is about the energy operation,
the operation, or the attribute itself,

525
00:56:40,679 --> 00:56:46,280
and you can't have in the divine
mind capacities that are unrealized. But that's

526
00:56:46,320 --> 00:56:50,400
why I'm gonna start asking him questions
about, well, wait a minute,

527
00:56:50,440 --> 00:56:54,920
does God know about worlds that he
didn't create? And he'll say yes,

528
00:56:55,639 --> 00:57:00,360
and then I'll point out that,
well, those should be actualized in there's

529
00:57:00,400 --> 00:57:05,199
a capacity which is not actualized.
God could have created a world without Thomas

530
00:57:05,280 --> 00:57:07,920
Aquinas and he didn't do that.
That's a potentiality. It's a capacity that

531
00:57:08,000 --> 00:57:12,599
he didn't that he didn't. Actually, there's all kinds of capacities, and

532
00:57:12,679 --> 00:57:17,119
so this is why we believe that
God can possess first and second actuality.

533
00:57:17,400 --> 00:57:22,280
But his position, as he will
say as a Thomas, is that no,

534
00:57:22,480 --> 00:57:27,960
God is only second actuality. Do
you understand what first and second actuality

535
00:57:28,119 --> 00:57:37,880
is. First actuality is a potentiality, a capacity to engage an activity that

536
00:57:37,079 --> 00:57:43,599
is then the corresponding second actuality.
Second actuality is the exercise of a function

537
00:57:43,679 --> 00:57:47,519
and air gone a work, and
the first actuality is the capacity or the

538
00:57:47,599 --> 00:57:53,519
disposition to exercise that function. Bradshaw
uses example that you might be familiar with

539
00:57:53,800 --> 00:58:00,519
of I have the ability, for
example, to let's say, ride a

540
00:58:00,559 --> 00:58:07,760
bike, speak Spanish, and play
guitar and do a live shame. I

541
00:58:07,920 --> 00:58:13,000
have those capacities, those powers,
but I'm not necessarily actualizing all of those

542
00:58:13,039 --> 00:58:19,400
powers at once. For the thomast
in God, God does not possess first

543
00:58:19,480 --> 00:58:24,280
actuality because he cannot have any potentia, he cannot have any capacities that are

544
00:58:24,320 --> 00:58:29,039
not actualized realized, because he has
act as pure as pure act right.

545
00:58:30,320 --> 00:58:34,760
So God is strictly speaking as he
will say, second actuality. And they

546
00:58:34,880 --> 00:58:37,960
think that it has to be that
way because otherwise God is not perfect.

547
00:58:38,280 --> 00:58:42,360
That's the only way that God could
be perfect and have all the perfections.

548
00:58:42,400 --> 00:58:45,320
And doctor bo Branson is some great
talks critiquing and getting into a lot of

549
00:58:45,360 --> 00:58:52,800
these ideas of perfection in the middle
ages, and how it's kind of tied

550
00:58:52,840 --> 00:58:57,480
up into presuppositions of metaphysics and metaphysical
systems that are not necessarily justified. We

551
00:58:57,519 --> 00:59:01,920
don't know necessarily that all of the
Thomas metaphysics crib from Aristotle is necessarily the

552
00:59:02,000 --> 00:59:05,840
case. That's why they're all foundationalists. And they just said, well,

553
00:59:05,880 --> 00:59:08,480
it's self evidence. All the metaphysical
things are first principles and they're self evident.

554
00:59:08,760 --> 00:59:14,480
Then we'll build our theology on top
of that. You know, the

555
00:59:14,559 --> 00:59:17,960
Trinity is first, Triad is first. That's why John Damascus begins his systematic

556
00:59:19,000 --> 00:59:24,719
theology with the triad. So remember, first, actuality is capacity that's not

557
00:59:25,000 --> 00:59:34,559
necessarily engaged. And so I might
will to ride my bike or to do

558
00:59:34,760 --> 00:59:37,719
something else. That's because I'm a
being with free will. I'm not.

559
00:59:37,880 --> 00:59:42,440
There's nothing about me that necessitates that
I actualize all of my capacities, or

560
00:59:42,440 --> 00:59:47,239
all my potentialities, my all of
my abilities. Right. They think that

561
00:59:47,480 --> 00:59:52,119
if we say that about God,
we're implying that God is imperfect and he's

562
00:59:52,159 --> 00:59:54,280
like a creature. Well, now, wait a minute, you believe in

563
00:59:54,280 --> 00:59:58,320
analyogists, so in certain ways he
is like creatures. Supposedly, according to

564
00:59:58,360 --> 01:00:00,360
you, but no, we believe
that he he's like creatures also in the

565
01:00:00,440 --> 01:00:06,239
ability to will or not to will, and the fact that he didn't actualize

566
01:00:06,280 --> 01:00:10,400
all the possible worlds that he has
knowledge of shows that there is capacity in

567
01:00:10,480 --> 01:00:17,440
God. There is first actuality in
God. He did not do the thing

568
01:00:17,519 --> 01:00:22,159
that he could do. And when
I bring this up, you're going to

569
01:00:22,199 --> 01:00:25,800
see that he doesn't actually address this
critique or this question. He agrees with

570
01:00:25,920 --> 01:00:31,039
me that in the temus view,
God is only second actuality, pure act

571
01:00:34,039 --> 01:00:37,719
But when I press him on what
that should mean, what that should lead

572
01:00:37,800 --> 01:00:45,239
him to, what that implies,
He restates things and uses analogies comparable to

573
01:00:45,360 --> 01:00:49,280
the analogies that I gave, which
don't actually help his case. As you'll

574
01:00:49,320 --> 01:00:52,239
see, God there's always in second
act The only thing that begins to exist

575
01:00:52,360 --> 01:00:59,440
is the effect. God is always
second act, second actuality. That's exactly

576
01:00:59,519 --> 01:01:01,280
what you just heard me say.
So you guys can see I'm not misrepresenting

577
01:01:01,280 --> 01:01:07,760
anybody's position. That's what we've been
saying for years. All right, we're

578
01:01:07,800 --> 01:01:12,119
all in the same page here.
He says God is only second actuality.

579
01:01:13,320 --> 01:01:23,239
That means that there are no unrealized
capacities potentialities. All potentialities must be realize

580
01:01:23,360 --> 01:01:27,880
or actualized. So I just start
asking him various questions about things that God

581
01:01:27,920 --> 01:01:30,679
didn't do which you could do,
and then he'll say no. But there's

582
01:01:31,119 --> 01:01:37,000
internal actions in God versus external causal
effects. So you see everything is cashed

583
01:01:37,039 --> 01:01:45,639
out as the cause and effects scheme, right, But the questions are constantly

584
01:01:45,679 --> 01:01:50,079
about not just that you're just assuming
that it's a twofold diatic scheme of cause

585
01:01:50,119 --> 01:01:57,360
and effect God world, right.
The questions are about the specific attributes and

586
01:01:57,480 --> 01:02:06,000
actions themselves create the power of creating. Qua creating which you identify as in

587
01:02:06,119 --> 01:02:13,840
your system has to be identical to
second act. Providence, love, glory

588
01:02:13,920 --> 01:02:16,360
are all identicals to second act?
And what is he gonna say when I

589
01:02:16,519 --> 01:02:21,639
when I raise that objection, He's
simply going to make a distinction between the

590
01:02:21,719 --> 01:02:28,320
created effects and the uncreated cause,
the pure act. That's not addressing the

591
01:02:28,400 --> 01:02:34,000
objection. I know that you believe
that, but it's it's it's bypassing.

592
01:02:34,039 --> 01:02:38,199
It's missing the argument for the people
in the chat. We're gonna open it

593
01:02:38,280 --> 01:02:42,199
up here in a minute. There's
not much more to this, but there's

594
01:02:42,280 --> 01:02:45,320
a couple of maybe two more minutes. But yeah, we don't have a

595
01:02:45,400 --> 01:02:50,599
problem saying that, whether it's palamass
I've got the book right here. If

596
01:02:50,639 --> 01:02:53,719
you look at Maximus is two hundred
chapters. When he calls God pure act,

597
01:02:54,000 --> 01:02:57,119
he's not saying the divine essence is
pure act. In fact, the

598
01:02:57,119 --> 01:03:00,199
first five pages of this book say
that we can call God pure act in

599
01:03:00,320 --> 01:03:07,320
his essence. We call God pure
act in contrast to creation. So unlike

600
01:03:07,480 --> 01:03:13,840
creatures, right, God is not
composed of parts. God is not a

601
01:03:13,960 --> 01:03:20,000
material being. God is not in
time. God is not changeable. He

602
01:03:20,079 --> 01:03:23,920
doesn't undergo change in his essence.
He's impassable. Right. Those are the

603
01:03:24,000 --> 01:03:28,440
things that Maximus says that we can
say about God in contrast to creatures.

604
01:03:29,760 --> 01:03:32,159
Maximus also says that, however,
when we call God pure act, it

605
01:03:32,320 --> 01:03:35,840
is not a statement of what he
is in his essence, and he is

606
01:03:35,920 --> 01:03:40,079
not reducible to that. The very
five pages of this are an explicit rejection

607
01:03:40,239 --> 01:03:46,280
of saying that essence and act are
the same in God. The two hundred

608
01:03:46,320 --> 01:03:51,559
chapters, first five pages literally says
that. And why am I saying that

609
01:03:51,559 --> 01:03:53,800
about Maximus, Because that's the word
our position. It's the exact same thing

610
01:03:54,000 --> 01:03:58,559
that we say. So when John
Damascus says we can talk about God is

611
01:03:58,559 --> 01:04:01,679
pure act, he says it in
trastic creatures. He's not saying that that's

612
01:04:01,760 --> 01:04:08,760
the definition or what the identity of
the divine essences. So Thomas take the

613
01:04:08,880 --> 01:04:12,960
statements about God's true act, which
we agree with, and they say that

614
01:04:13,159 --> 01:04:17,639
God's essence is reducible to that.
That's an identity thesis view. Peter Lombard

615
01:04:17,760 --> 01:04:24,000
the identity thesis view. God is
reducible to the predicates that you say of

616
01:04:24,119 --> 01:04:30,119
him, but he actualizes all capacities, meaning that he has meaning that there's

617
01:04:30,159 --> 01:04:34,280
no distinction between first and second act
and God in your view, what do

618
01:04:34,400 --> 01:04:38,639
you mean by for sen second dact? Because whatever he just agreed, God

619
01:04:38,719 --> 01:04:41,119
is second act. So he knows
what I mean by first and second act

620
01:04:41,519 --> 01:04:44,519
means what you just said, But
it's always you said, He's always in

621
01:04:44,559 --> 01:04:48,679
second actuality. Yeah, first actuality
is at second actuality is the actual So

622
01:04:49,119 --> 01:04:53,199
I asked him that he already said
it, and then he agreed with it.

623
01:04:53,360 --> 01:04:55,199
But he says, what do you
mean by that? He knows what

624
01:04:55,320 --> 01:05:00,920
I means first and second act to
sure? Sure? So act is active

625
01:05:00,960 --> 01:05:06,239
power? Right right? Yeah?
Right? Kind of capacity. Yeah sure,

626
01:05:06,440 --> 01:05:12,159
yeah, sure sure. So the
second act is action ractualization of death

627
01:05:12,239 --> 01:05:17,679
act. So first act is a
capacity. Second act is the actuality corresponding

628
01:05:17,760 --> 01:05:24,280
to capacity. You see. So
that's the difference between me actually riding the

629
01:05:24,320 --> 01:05:28,760
bike and me having the capacity or
the power to ride the bike. Right,

630
01:05:28,880 --> 01:05:33,800
Donna miss actual power actuality first act, second act, second act is

631
01:05:33,880 --> 01:05:42,440
the work the air gone. In
the Roman calittimistic scheme, God is strictly

632
01:05:42,880 --> 01:05:48,800
and solely defined as pure act second
act. Do we need to read phaser

633
01:05:48,920 --> 01:05:55,320
for you, guys? But it's
not even This isn't controversial. God is

634
01:05:55,320 --> 01:06:03,159
absolutely pure act with no let's read
phase. Turning to the divisions of act

635
01:06:03,199 --> 01:06:08,159
or actuality, the first distinction is
between a pure act and a mixed act.

636
01:06:08,719 --> 01:06:14,719
Act as purists or act utterly unmixed
with any potential. Is the core

637
01:06:14,840 --> 01:06:18,280
philosophy of the scholastic conception of God. Everything else is act in some way

638
01:06:18,760 --> 01:06:27,760
mixed with potency. Only God is
pure act with no potency. And so

639
01:06:27,960 --> 01:06:32,239
he goes on to talk about combining
these senses as an expay is forty one.

640
01:06:34,000 --> 01:06:38,519
This is what we mean by doing
amiss right and a Greek Combining these

641
01:06:39,039 --> 01:06:43,079
senses. A man's having a substantial
form a rational animal is first actuality.

642
01:06:43,679 --> 01:06:47,559
Is having the power of speech is
second actuality relative to that first actuality.

643
01:06:47,760 --> 01:06:51,159
Having the power of speech, however, itself, is first actuality if it's

644
01:06:51,239 --> 01:06:56,079
relative to the actual exercise of that
power. So I might have the ability

645
01:06:56,119 --> 01:07:01,039
to speak, that's first act When
I speak right now, that's second act

646
01:07:01,119 --> 01:07:08,079
I'm actualizing a capacity of power that
I have. Roman Catholicism does not believe

647
01:07:08,880 --> 01:07:13,400
that God possesses first actuality because they
think that that would mean God's a creature,

648
01:07:13,800 --> 01:07:17,039
imperfect and so forth. We believe
that for God to have free will,

649
01:07:18,280 --> 01:07:24,480
he must have that as well.
God does not have to exercise all

650
01:07:24,599 --> 01:07:28,840
of his powers or all of his
abilities, and in fact, every time

651
01:07:28,880 --> 01:07:31,480
he does a specific action in history, and by the way, the divine

652
01:07:31,599 --> 01:07:35,199
energies actually are in history when it's
Christ walking on water, that's a divine

653
01:07:35,400 --> 01:07:39,639
energy and action in history and time
and space. Roman Caloics don't think that

654
01:07:39,760 --> 01:07:44,079
divine divinity can actually be in time
and space, so they don't actually consistently

655
01:07:44,159 --> 01:07:47,760
believe in the incarnation. Because if
God is strictly speaking, pure act then

656
01:07:47,840 --> 01:07:53,079
the second hypostasis, the second person
of Godhead can't actually be in time and

657
01:07:53,159 --> 01:08:00,000
space doing different actions. You see
their act as purists would compromise the reality

658
01:08:00,079 --> 01:08:03,480
of the incarnation, and it actually
does. Now. If I were to

659
01:08:03,519 --> 01:08:06,519
say that to it Thomas, the
first thing they would say is, we

660
01:08:06,719 --> 01:08:10,880
believe in the incarnation. Thomas believes
that the second person, the Trinity,

661
01:08:10,920 --> 01:08:15,679
became incarnate. I know that the
objection is not do you believe that the

662
01:08:15,760 --> 01:08:18,279
objection is is it consistent with what
you've already said? This is a different

663
01:08:18,359 --> 01:08:24,760
argument, And you tell them that
blows past them. They're just going to

664
01:08:24,880 --> 01:08:29,079
recite to you what Thomas's position is
about the incarnation, which we agree with.

665
01:08:29,239 --> 01:08:32,399
Yeah, we agree the second hypostasis
became incarnate. What we're saying is

666
01:08:32,439 --> 01:08:38,720
that if God is reducible to pure
act, and his actions aren't reducible to

667
01:08:38,840 --> 01:08:45,079
pure act, and they're only conceptually
distinct, then Jesus walking on water is

668
01:08:45,119 --> 01:08:50,920
only conceptually distinct from the conflagration.
That's dumb. Clearly, the creating of

669
01:08:50,960 --> 01:08:56,479
the world is a divine power and
action that is not purely a created effect.

670
01:08:57,600 --> 01:09:01,840
The power of creating is not created. The power of creating is not

671
01:09:02,000 --> 01:09:06,640
a created effect. But in their
system it is because everything collapses into the

672
01:09:06,760 --> 01:09:15,439
twofold scheme of God's cause created effect. But the power of creating itself is

673
01:09:15,520 --> 01:09:20,720
not an effect. It's something God
possesses. And God didn't have to create

674
01:09:20,800 --> 01:09:29,319
the world. So God had the
capacity to create the world and chose to

675
01:09:29,479 --> 01:09:34,239
create the world first actuality, second
actuality. And as we progress through this

676
01:09:34,319 --> 01:09:41,039
conversation, he will consistently attempt to
give analogies, an attempt to say things

677
01:09:41,920 --> 01:09:47,039
that try to allow for God willing
certain realities to come to be, certain

678
01:09:47,079 --> 01:09:55,359
things to come to be. But
that's not consistent with defining God as only

679
01:09:55,520 --> 01:10:00,880
second act And we've been hammering this
for so long, and all he does

680
01:10:00,000 --> 01:10:04,079
is keep stating other Tomastic views and
positions to try to make it work.

681
01:10:04,920 --> 01:10:10,800
Right, pure, Yeah, exactly
right. So I'm glad that he agreed

682
01:10:10,840 --> 01:10:13,359
that pure actual means God's will.
The reasons say from that, right,

683
01:10:13,560 --> 01:10:15,159
we agree that. Okay, I
don't, that's not my position, but

684
01:10:15,600 --> 01:10:28,880
that's no I know, that's what
I understand the Tomust position to it.

685
01:10:28,920 --> 01:10:30,880
It's not controversial. We've all we've
been saying this whole Well, yes,

686
01:10:31,159 --> 01:10:38,800
so there's no no unactualized capacities in
God, right, yeah, because up

687
01:10:39,479 --> 01:10:45,680
there we go, there's no unactualized
capacities. And when I start talking about

688
01:10:46,439 --> 01:10:51,560
specific things that only makes sense in
regard to the created order. He will

689
01:10:51,600 --> 01:10:58,560
attempt to introduce a distinction between the
mental conception in God, in the divine

690
01:10:58,600 --> 01:11:06,279
mind of the created order, and
the internal mental providence and the execution of

691
01:11:06,359 --> 01:11:13,359
that at extra. That's not what
providence is. And by the way,

692
01:11:13,479 --> 01:11:18,680
there's not actually a distinction at intra
at extra if God is reducible to pure

693
01:11:18,720 --> 01:11:21,880
act. You see. In other
words, it just keeps begging the question

694
01:11:23,640 --> 01:11:26,800
because if you say, well,
God's reducible to pure act, but there

695
01:11:26,840 --> 01:11:30,039
are imminent divine ideas by which he
can choose to create this or that,

696
01:11:30,680 --> 01:11:35,079
that's not consistent with what he just
said. He just said God is second

697
01:11:35,119 --> 01:11:40,560
act with no unrealized capacities, and
that's where he really begins to shoot himself

698
01:11:40,560 --> 01:11:44,920
in the foot. He would be
imperfect Niste. Yeah, yeah, okay,

699
01:11:45,319 --> 01:11:50,760
So divine providence is not eternally actualized, or is it? Insofar as

700
01:11:50,840 --> 01:11:56,279
it is an intitative act. It's
always eternal in so far as there's an

701
01:11:56,359 --> 01:12:00,840
execution of effect. Notes. So
now he's introduced to inction that divine providence

702
01:12:01,560 --> 01:12:09,000
is an imminent, intative act,
but it's not executed forever. So now

703
01:12:09,079 --> 01:12:14,079
he's introduced two types of acts in
God, acts that actually externally cause their

704
01:12:14,079 --> 01:12:20,600
effect and acts that are internal and
intaitive in God. Right, But remember,

705
01:12:21,479 --> 01:12:25,960
how are we actually having all these
different types of distinctions in God?

706
01:12:26,560 --> 01:12:34,319
That all of the naming ultimately comes
from predicates that are not actually matching up

707
01:12:34,399 --> 01:12:39,880
to the referent because when we talk
about providence, school or or love or

708
01:12:39,960 --> 01:12:44,680
the power of creating, those are
only virtually in our mind. If they

709
01:12:44,760 --> 01:12:47,640
were consistent, I could go on
to say that, but the same way

710
01:12:47,680 --> 01:12:50,720
that you know that the persons are
distinct is the same way that you know

711
01:12:50,840 --> 01:12:56,159
the attributes. So you don't really
have a basis to say that the distinction

712
01:12:56,239 --> 01:13:03,800
between the persons is a major,
real distinction versus minor virtual distinctions of attributes.

713
01:13:04,119 --> 01:13:11,079
You can claim that, but you're
introducing all of these levels into God,

714
01:13:11,239 --> 01:13:15,840
which in reality don't exist in God
unless we assume your system in your

715
01:13:15,840 --> 01:13:19,520
position. But that's the thing in
question. And so the same methodology by

716
01:13:19,560 --> 01:13:28,079
which he's going to say that the
divine attributes signify a synonymous reality in the

717
01:13:28,159 --> 01:13:31,199
thing itself, but in our minds
are multiple. I can turn that around

718
01:13:31,279 --> 01:13:35,039
and say, why wouldn't it be
the same thing for the divine persons.

719
01:13:35,279 --> 01:13:40,359
I know that you believe there's a
major real attribute. I'm just getting you

720
01:13:40,600 --> 01:13:45,359
to try to tell me on what
basis should I accept that you have an

721
01:13:45,439 --> 01:13:53,119
actual adjudication between major real and minor
virtual. Do you understand that this is

722
01:13:53,159 --> 01:13:56,760
just begging the question to introduce another
type of distinction. Oh well, but

723
01:13:56,840 --> 01:14:00,039
there's these these well they're not really
in God except for the major real ones.

724
01:14:00,359 --> 01:14:03,640
You see, it's just question begging. So you can layer on all

725
01:14:03,680 --> 01:14:08,239
of these different scholastic distinctions. But
remember, at the base of it,

726
01:14:08,319 --> 01:14:11,800
all of these are known in the
same way, which is by created analogia.

727
01:14:14,760 --> 01:14:17,039
But how do we know that the
created analogia when we predicate about the

728
01:14:17,159 --> 01:14:26,960
major really accurately matches up to the
persons, versus when we do the minor

729
01:14:27,079 --> 01:14:31,039
virtual that it doesn't actually match up
in reality? You see, it's all

730
01:14:31,279 --> 01:14:35,399
arbitrary. That's why I will start
saying to him that the more distinctions that

731
01:14:35,479 --> 01:14:42,279
attacks on are arbitrary, and all
he will ever do is just state the

732
01:14:42,359 --> 01:14:45,479
thumbus position over and over and over. And remember, now we've got other

733
01:14:45,640 --> 01:14:56,920
levels of distinctions, major minor.
So remember we've got major minor, begging

734
01:14:57,000 --> 01:15:02,800
the question that major and minor.
Wait a minute, how do I know

735
01:15:02,920 --> 01:15:11,159
that that matches up? Because this
is major and minor are actually the supercategory,

736
01:15:11,840 --> 01:15:18,279
or the more fundamental category by which
to parse out names that apply that

737
01:15:18,359 --> 01:15:26,840
are minor virtual and names that apply
that are major real like hypostases. Do

738
01:15:26,920 --> 01:15:31,960
you understand that to keep stacking on
these distinctions. I know he thinks that

739
01:15:32,079 --> 01:15:36,720
that's helping the system work, but
all it's really doing is piling on more

740
01:15:38,960 --> 01:15:43,199
question begging, kicking the can down
the road problems. And he they never

741
01:15:43,399 --> 01:15:46,720
get what you're asking. They never
get this objection. And then when you

742
01:15:46,800 --> 01:15:50,560
say you're not addressing the objection,
he'll say, I am addressing it by

743
01:15:50,640 --> 01:15:57,239
giving you more tomistic distinctions. But
the distinctions beg the question, and aren't

744
01:15:57,239 --> 01:16:05,680
ask answering my objection, which is
very specifically and very precisely that the twofold

745
01:16:05,720 --> 01:16:13,640
distinction between major and minor itself is
the presupposition that you can't justify. How

746
01:16:13,680 --> 01:16:15,159
do we know that you actually have
the right list between the two, And

747
01:16:15,239 --> 01:16:18,680
god, well, it must be
by a necessity and because I conside Aristotle

748
01:16:18,680 --> 01:16:24,840
blah blah blah blah blah. Oh, how can you have the action of

749
01:16:24,920 --> 01:16:30,079
divine providence but there's no execution of
that act? Sure, so let me

750
01:16:30,119 --> 01:16:33,039
give you an example of creation which
will make it easier. So we have

751
01:16:33,159 --> 01:16:39,159
creation. You believe that creation,
consider it as an act? So he

752
01:16:39,279 --> 01:16:43,479
will define creation by what. By
the way, again, you're notice how

753
01:16:43,520 --> 01:16:48,239
he's not going to answer the objection
because my question was divine providence or the

754
01:16:48,319 --> 01:16:53,000
action of create, the act of
creating. I'm asking about that itself,

755
01:16:54,119 --> 01:16:57,720
and he's just gonna say, well, the cause is eternal God, the

756
01:16:57,800 --> 01:17:00,359
effect is temporal creation. No,
no, that's not the question. That

757
01:17:00,560 --> 01:17:05,239
is eternal so God never began.
That's that's not true. Yeah. No,

758
01:17:05,479 --> 01:17:11,520
I'm seeing my position right, And
I'm saying that that's not biblical theology

759
01:17:12,960 --> 01:17:15,640
because I'm saying that if you're considered
that it would lead to eternal creation,

760
01:17:15,680 --> 01:17:19,359
it would lead to the originous position. Okay, you can't think that,

761
01:17:19,479 --> 01:17:24,119
and I'm disagreeing. I'm just laying
out my position. I thought you were

762
01:17:24,159 --> 01:17:29,800
here to lay out to our position. I'm listening, Okay, So creative

763
01:17:29,840 --> 01:17:36,319
action considered as an action is eternal. Considered in its termination is created.

764
01:17:36,359 --> 01:17:43,920
Action considered in its action is eternal. Notice he said that creative action in

765
01:17:44,000 --> 01:17:48,319
God. Okay, how does God
act to create? But it doesn't eternally

766
01:17:48,359 --> 01:17:54,880
affect that action? Yeah? Sure
so, because God's alitional agent. Remember

767
01:17:56,640 --> 01:18:05,319
creative acting, the action to create
is eternal. And what you're going to

768
01:18:05,439 --> 01:18:13,079
notice is that as he fleshes this
out, the words themselves no longer have

769
01:18:13,319 --> 01:18:21,119
the meaning that they mean, right, because he's going to bypass the actual

770
01:18:21,199 --> 01:18:26,119
meaning of the word. The action
to create is eternal. That's an eternal

771
01:18:26,159 --> 01:18:29,600
action according to him, and it
has to be if God is defined as

772
01:18:30,640 --> 01:18:38,359
second actuality. And then he'll say
that the termination of this eternal act is

773
01:18:39,079 --> 01:18:54,479
temporal creation finite. So that's just
the creaturely effect. But now wait a

774
01:18:54,520 --> 01:19:01,439
minute. Do you notice what's happened
here? And this is the only reason

775
01:19:01,479 --> 01:19:04,720
they're doing this is because they want
to try to believe in creation. X

776
01:19:04,840 --> 01:19:10,119
nelo. I understand Roman Catholics in
Thomas that you, like us, we

777
01:19:10,239 --> 01:19:14,880
all affirm creation, x nelo.
The problem is that this is not consistent.

778
01:19:15,279 --> 01:19:18,000
I know you believe this in creation, x neilo, but you just

779
01:19:18,119 --> 01:19:24,359
said that the action to create is
eternal. If this word has any meaning,

780
01:19:24,960 --> 01:19:30,039
if it's an eternal action, then
what comes forth, what it corresponds

781
01:19:30,119 --> 01:19:33,239
to, must also be eternal or
else this no longer has meaning. And

782
01:19:33,359 --> 01:19:36,479
actually, in Thomasm the words,
as we begin to see, they lose

783
01:19:36,520 --> 01:19:43,079
their meaning. This doesn't actually mean
this anymore because it's all cashed out in

784
01:19:43,159 --> 01:19:46,439
the twofold scheme of cause and effect, eternal cause, created effect. We're

785
01:19:46,520 --> 01:19:50,479
not asking do you believe in a
created effect? We're asking on what basis

786
01:19:50,600 --> 01:19:57,520
is it consistent to say that the
effect is created in temporal when the action

787
01:19:57,720 --> 01:20:00,439
is not created in temporal. And
he's going to say that the mine will,

788
01:20:00,359 --> 01:20:05,239
but the divine will is just as
eternal and necessary as this as he

789
01:20:05,359 --> 01:20:10,840
will say, and that's why I
keep saying. Then therefore it doesn't answer

790
01:20:10,880 --> 01:20:15,800
the objection, and he just keeps
restating it. And volitional agent determines not

791
01:20:15,960 --> 01:20:18,800
only the conditions of the effect,
but also it's time. So because God

792
01:20:18,920 --> 01:20:23,960
is a volitional agent. Yeah,
I know you believe that there's a divine

793
01:20:24,039 --> 01:20:27,079
will. I'm not asking you if
you believe that, I'm asking you how

794
01:20:27,159 --> 01:20:32,199
it's consistent that there's an eternal action
of creation, but the effect is temporal

795
01:20:33,560 --> 01:20:38,520
because God only wills it to be
temporal. Then this does not mean what

796
01:20:38,680 --> 01:20:43,159
you think of me is Now there's
a distinction between the eternal actions in God,

797
01:20:43,920 --> 01:20:47,119
which are from all eternity, and
the actions that he exercises towards the

798
01:20:47,199 --> 01:20:51,720
created order, which are not eternal, namely the power of creating. Now,

799
01:20:51,800 --> 01:20:57,680
why do you think Roman Catholics,
as Palamas said to barleyam God wrested

800
01:20:57,840 --> 01:21:00,960
from his works on the seventh day? Does that sound like the power of

801
01:21:01,039 --> 01:21:09,479
creating is an eternal action? So
you don't actually believe God rested from his

802
01:21:09,600 --> 01:21:11,880
works on the seventh day. And
if you read Augustine, because of his

803
01:21:11,960 --> 01:21:21,960
neo Platinian platinus neo Platonic doctrine of
the monad in confessions, he struggles with

804
01:21:23,079 --> 01:21:27,640
this. He says, I don't
understand how we could say God rests from

805
01:21:27,800 --> 01:21:31,720
his act of creating on the seventh
day. God rested. That means he

806
01:21:31,880 --> 01:21:38,279
did not continue the act of creating. And all they ever do to answer

807
01:21:38,359 --> 01:21:42,079
this objection it's and it's not an
answer is to say the effects are temporal

808
01:21:42,119 --> 01:21:45,399
and created. I know that we
know that's your position, man, But

809
01:21:45,520 --> 01:21:48,359
it's not answering the objection, and
you'll see that it doesn't. So God's

810
01:21:48,359 --> 01:21:51,479
from only turn into you ill,
is that this effect takes place like let's

811
01:21:51,479 --> 01:21:55,800
see in two thousand. Yeah,
but you're just now he's saying that God's

812
01:21:56,039 --> 01:22:04,279
will imposes that the eternal act of
creating is only a temporal effect. That's

813
01:22:04,319 --> 01:22:11,119
nonsense. Now you've introduced new layers
of distinctions which don't match up. And

814
01:22:11,159 --> 01:22:14,600
I hope Father Deacons able to come
on here in a little bit because we're

815
01:22:14,600 --> 01:22:17,119
almost getting to the end here.
That's not answering the question. That's just

816
01:22:17,239 --> 01:22:20,680
stating the difference between eternity and time, and that you think that there's cause

817
01:22:20,720 --> 01:22:26,520
and effect. I'm asking how it's
possible in the metaphysical scheme to be consistent

818
01:22:27,119 --> 01:22:32,119
to say that there's an eternal realization
of providence that doesn't have an eternal corresponding.

819
01:22:33,039 --> 01:22:38,319
What corresponds to that? So the
effect should be just as eternal as

820
01:22:38,399 --> 01:22:40,720
the cause. And their answer is
that, well, God doesn't will it

821
01:22:40,840 --> 01:22:44,720
to be. Yeah, but God's
will is identical to his essence. God's

822
01:22:44,720 --> 01:22:50,359
will is identical to his eternity.
God's will is identical to Providence in their

823
01:22:50,479 --> 01:22:58,680
view. No, no, dislets
your confusing realization in so far, I

824
01:22:58,760 --> 01:23:01,520
know you make that distinction, but
it doesn't because now providence doesn't make any

825
01:23:01,600 --> 01:23:05,880
sense because you've equated providence with divine
glory and all these other attributes. So

826
01:23:06,000 --> 01:23:13,159
again, remember he wants a different
meaning for the creative power, but he's

827
01:23:13,239 --> 01:23:17,239
also defined the creative power as identical
to the other attributes like glory and love.

828
01:23:17,359 --> 01:23:21,760
Remember that they're only conceptually distinct.
Well, they're only conceptually distinct.

829
01:23:21,800 --> 01:23:25,640
Then they really don't do us any
good because we don't know if it's actually

830
01:23:25,720 --> 01:23:30,199
matching up to the thing itself,
and the prior distinction itself has to be

831
01:23:30,359 --> 01:23:34,199
true to know if you can distinguish
major real and minor virtual. Father de

832
01:23:34,239 --> 01:23:36,039
you can. I hope you're hearing
this and that you can comment on this

833
01:23:36,119 --> 01:23:40,399
in a minute. Okay, okay, So you think that God did until

834
01:23:40,479 --> 01:23:45,720
he'sn't have a plan before creating.
Now he's switching it over to the divine

835
01:23:45,800 --> 01:23:48,239
plan for the created order, which, yeah, we all believe that God

836
01:23:48,319 --> 01:23:54,800
has in the divine mind, the
divine ideas. This is why Saint Maximus

837
01:23:54,880 --> 01:23:59,560
calls them the thought wills and they
are not the divine essence. Saint or

838
01:23:59,640 --> 01:24:03,600
Thomas Aquinas believes that divine ideas are
the divine essence, and that is right

839
01:24:03,720 --> 01:24:10,319
here in Suma question first one part
first part, Question fifteen. I'll give

840
01:24:10,359 --> 01:24:13,600
it in the chat for you.
Right here you can see that for a

841
01:24:13,680 --> 01:24:18,239
Quainas, the divine ideas are absolutely
identical to and synonymous with the divine essence.

842
01:24:18,239 --> 01:24:24,279
So the divine ideas are actually in
that category that we mentioned earlier of

843
01:24:24,399 --> 01:24:30,279
the major of the minor virtual distinct
distinction. Again, just assuming that we

844
01:24:30,399 --> 01:24:39,000
know that that's actually correct, right, the divine ideas are also part of

845
01:24:39,079 --> 01:24:44,880
that category of things in God.
Notice we're basically drawing out a giant algorithm

846
01:24:44,960 --> 01:24:48,760
and list of planes and levels of
existence in God, which Pallemism does as

847
01:24:48,800 --> 01:24:54,159
well. But their system is saying
that, well, these a lot.

848
01:24:54,479 --> 01:24:59,319
Really this is all just deriving from
human conceptual distinctions from analogia. Yeah,

849
01:24:59,399 --> 01:25:02,800
exactly, so that it's not actually
corresponding to realities in the thing itself,

850
01:25:02,920 --> 01:25:08,600
which he's already admitted. And so
if that's the case, then what he

851
01:25:08,720 --> 01:25:11,600
just said, we don't even know
if that holds up, because it's another

852
01:25:11,720 --> 01:25:14,159
layer and level of distinction within God. And he's gonna tack on another one

853
01:25:14,159 --> 01:25:19,520
here in a minute. The plan
is not identical to the execution in your

854
01:25:19,720 --> 01:25:27,119
exact In his system, the plan, the divine ideas are the divine essence.

855
01:25:28,399 --> 01:25:30,680
Thomas says it right there for you
in that Suma, in that section.

856
01:25:38,960 --> 01:25:43,840
And it must be held that the
divine ideas are many. But again

857
01:25:43,920 --> 01:25:46,960
they're many as they impose themselves upon
us. They're not many actually in the

858
01:25:47,039 --> 01:25:53,640
Divine essence though so therefore, every
creature has his own species, and in

859
01:25:53,720 --> 01:25:58,159
likeness of degree to the divine essence, God knows his essence, and thereby

860
01:25:58,239 --> 01:26:02,159
knows himself. By knowing his essence, the divine essence contains all of the

861
01:26:02,279 --> 01:26:15,359
divine ideas. And by the way, Whipple in his book on the Suma,

862
01:26:15,119 --> 01:26:21,560
uses this as one of the arguments
for why there is analogia. But

863
01:26:21,680 --> 01:26:26,239
again, remember it doesn't work to
just say that, well, well,

864
01:26:26,680 --> 01:26:30,760
there's analogia between creatures and God because
of the divine ideas. Right that's Thomas

865
01:26:30,840 --> 01:26:34,720
says that in that section. Okay, but how do we know that that's

866
01:26:34,760 --> 01:26:39,439
the case? You see, because
remember the mode of existence of the divine

867
01:26:39,479 --> 01:26:43,520
ideas in the divine essence is not
like creatures, but it's supposed to be

868
01:26:43,600 --> 01:26:46,039
the blueprint and the pattern of the
creatures. Well, creatures are really many.

869
01:26:46,159 --> 01:26:49,159
Did you notice that? Do you
notice that creatures are actually many?

870
01:26:51,920 --> 01:26:58,359
They're not one? And so what
their answer is that? Well, in

871
01:26:58,479 --> 01:27:03,239
the divine mind, the mode of
the existence, the divine ideas might seem

872
01:27:03,319 --> 01:27:06,000
to us to be many, but
it is actually one, and it is

873
01:27:06,079 --> 01:27:10,399
the divine essence. Oh okay,
then the divine ideas, which are the

874
01:27:10,479 --> 01:27:15,119
patterns for the created order, are
necessary and eternal. Therefore creation is necessary

875
01:27:15,159 --> 01:27:23,239
and eternal. This is a Platonius
turn. Do we see this? I

876
01:27:23,359 --> 01:27:30,159
know that you don't believe creation is
a necessary emanation. I'm saying that you

877
01:27:30,239 --> 01:27:32,199
should say that if you were consistent, because you don't have the essence inery

878
01:27:32,239 --> 01:27:39,000
distinction. It's not execution. But
that's why you need a distinction between essence

879
01:27:39,000 --> 01:27:45,479
and energy. No, it's a
distinction of action and effect action. You

880
01:27:45,640 --> 01:27:49,600
know. Remember now he's made a
new distinct. So the action to create

881
01:27:49,840 --> 01:27:58,199
is eternal, the effect is temporal. So God is eternally acting to create,

882
01:27:58,960 --> 01:28:04,800
but willing that it only be temporal. Do you see that that doesn't

883
01:28:04,840 --> 01:28:09,600
match up, it doesn't work.
And remember that the action to create is

884
01:28:09,680 --> 01:28:16,920
synonymous with glory and eternality and it's
necessary. Remember he said that the attributes

885
01:28:16,960 --> 01:28:20,680
are necessary, and he classed this
attribute amongst them, the power creating,

886
01:28:20,760 --> 01:28:26,319
because you've already defined the action of
the buying, providence and creation as eternal.

887
01:28:26,840 --> 01:28:30,640
Therefore the effect must be eternal as
an act, not as an effect.

888
01:28:30,800 --> 01:28:36,560
That considered as an act, God
is eternally creating, but the effect

889
01:28:36,640 --> 01:28:44,119
is temporal. I'm saying that's inconsistent
the action. How does God eternally act

890
01:28:44,199 --> 01:28:49,159
to create but there's not an eternal
corresponding effect of that? Okay, are

891
01:28:49,199 --> 01:28:55,159
you done? Yeah? So I
remember God has no unrealized capacities, there's

892
01:28:55,199 --> 01:28:59,960
no first act. God is pure
second act. If God's is God's messence

893
01:29:00,079 --> 01:29:04,680
necessary? Yeah, God's assness is
necessary. Okay. So remember now he's

894
01:29:05,039 --> 01:29:14,119
going even further into exactly what I
hope they would say. So let's list

895
01:29:14,199 --> 01:29:26,279
these attributes or these and these powers
creating, glory, love, providence.

896
01:29:30,479 --> 01:29:45,760
All are necessary, All are necessary? Is there the other attributes necessary?

897
01:29:46,640 --> 01:29:50,880
Every ever we want to attributes are
necessary? So every attribute of God and

898
01:29:50,960 --> 01:29:57,800
power of God is necessary creating glory, love, providence, which are all

899
01:29:57,880 --> 01:30:04,479
in reality synonymous, our nest necessary. How is that a God who creates

900
01:30:04,800 --> 01:30:09,399
by free will. I'm not asking
you if you contradict yourself tomist and then

901
01:30:09,439 --> 01:30:13,640
turn around and believe in free will. I'm pointing out that that's not consistent.

902
01:30:13,920 --> 01:30:16,439
You see two different arguments. I
don't need you to tell me in

903
01:30:16,520 --> 01:30:19,960
fifty other places that Aquaintas believes in
creation Nextnilo. We all know that,

904
01:30:21,199 --> 01:30:26,720
and that's why we keep saying that
you're not addressing the objection. The objection

905
01:30:26,840 --> 01:30:30,880
is that it's inconsistent to talk about
creation by free will. We know you

906
01:30:30,960 --> 01:30:42,279
believe that creating, glory, love, providence all are necessary. Creating is

907
01:30:42,399 --> 01:30:46,880
necessary. If it's necessary, then
it's not by God's free will that he

908
01:30:47,000 --> 01:30:51,279
created. But everybody confesses that God
freely created the world and not out of

909
01:30:51,319 --> 01:30:55,119
any necessity. So you see where
he's beginning to go with this, and

910
01:30:55,159 --> 01:31:00,560
he's he's just going to keep tacking
on more other Tomistic positions which don't address

911
01:31:00,199 --> 01:31:04,239
the objection. Creating is necessary,
Can ansider it as an act on the

912
01:31:04,279 --> 01:31:10,720
part of God, be called it
initatively necessary, primitively streets So now there's

913
01:31:10,800 --> 01:31:15,640
different a new distinction. So intitatively
it's necessary, but not in its effect

914
01:31:15,039 --> 01:31:30,960
in its terminus. Right, so
we have inentitative versus the terminus another distinction,

915
01:31:30,279 --> 01:31:33,640
right. And I'm not mad that
he's going to make these distinctions.

916
01:31:34,239 --> 01:31:38,399
But my point is just that you
can pile on all the distinctions you want

917
01:31:39,079 --> 01:31:45,039
between entitative and the creative effect or
what the what it terminates in this is

918
01:31:45,119 --> 01:31:48,680
just another layer of something that we
don't know that that's justified, you see.

919
01:31:50,680 --> 01:31:56,479
So it's just piling on more distinctions
that aren't addressing the objection. So

920
01:31:56,560 --> 01:32:03,159
it's fine that you believe all those
things we understand, but how do you

921
01:32:03,319 --> 01:32:10,199
know that? I mean, is
the entitative versus the the transitive and the

922
01:32:10,279 --> 01:32:14,079
termative and all this that you're later
going to talk about. How much categories

923
01:32:14,079 --> 01:32:19,079
does that fit into? Are those
major real? Are they minor? Virtual?

924
01:32:20,039 --> 01:32:29,439
Distinctions? In gone that's o no, no, no, no,

925
01:32:29,600 --> 01:32:33,279
no, yes, it is explain
why you're just all you do is interjective

926
01:32:33,279 --> 01:32:39,439
distinction. No distinction is inconsistent because
that's if you don't want to hear our

927
01:32:39,479 --> 01:32:42,479
positioned And why yet no, I
understand that's the tumb of position. The

928
01:32:42,520 --> 01:32:46,600
distinctions are just intended to try to
rescue the position from necessary creation. Right,

929
01:32:46,720 --> 01:32:50,000
that's what he's trying to rescue.
It's ad hoc rescue. And so

930
01:32:50,119 --> 01:32:53,600
you just come up with the distinction. Oh, well, the effect is

931
01:32:53,640 --> 01:32:57,079
created, but the action is eternal. Well, then the action doesn't.

932
01:32:57,199 --> 01:33:02,279
The meaning of that action no longer
has any meaning. Eternal creating but temporal

933
01:33:02,319 --> 01:33:06,520
effect. Why because God wills it
to be that way. Yeah, but

934
01:33:06,560 --> 01:33:12,319
the divine will is synonymous with the
drine essence, and both are necessary.

935
01:33:12,720 --> 01:33:15,000
Therefore creation's necessari And I've always understood
that when I left it understood that's a

936
01:33:15,039 --> 01:33:19,880
position. And I'm saying that's inconsistent. You're just saying that. You're just

937
01:33:19,960 --> 01:33:25,079
saying, but the effect is created. You have a created effect of an

938
01:33:25,159 --> 01:33:30,680
eternal action. Yeah, the action
should just be the effect should be as

939
01:33:30,720 --> 01:33:35,119
eternal as the act. No.
Otherwise, the words creating a providence mean

940
01:33:35,239 --> 01:33:41,039
nothing, They don't make any sense. That only follows if the action you

941
01:33:41,119 --> 01:33:45,039
have to go okay, okay,
okay, that can only fall. Yeah,

942
01:33:45,079 --> 01:33:46,640
I agree that if there's an eternal
action, there has to be an

943
01:33:46,680 --> 01:33:50,600
eternal effect if the action is transient, But if you don't believe it.

944
01:33:53,199 --> 01:33:59,119
But here we have another distinction that
he's going to try to draw between imminent

945
01:33:59,199 --> 01:34:03,279
acts and trent acts or transitive acts. Right. So, and we're gonna

946
01:34:03,279 --> 01:34:08,880
see once again that how do we
know that this distinction holds? And he's

947
01:34:08,880 --> 01:34:13,560
gonna draw analogies from guess what,
creation And the analogy that he's going to

948
01:34:13,640 --> 01:34:16,199
give is very similar to Bradshaw's analogy. Right, the creation is a transitent

949
01:34:16,239 --> 01:34:20,359
intection within them and intection. So
because the tin of theemin intection remains in

950
01:34:20,439 --> 01:34:27,039
the criminals of the emin intection is
intrinsic action and there's no need for defect

951
01:34:27,039 --> 01:34:30,479
to be positive in them and intection, you don't need to have any trinal

952
01:34:30,520 --> 01:34:35,960
effect. Yeah, but creating is
not an internal imminent action in God.

953
01:34:38,399 --> 01:34:42,199
That's what's under dispute here. And
so he's trying to retreat into the vine

954
01:34:42,319 --> 01:34:45,000
ideas that God has a plan for
the creative order. That's not addressing the

955
01:34:45,119 --> 01:34:49,199
question. The question is not you
can't escape it by saying that this is

956
01:34:49,239 --> 01:34:55,199
an imminent action, right, because
imminent action is not in the direct category

957
01:34:55,279 --> 01:35:00,159
of action. The second actions are
called transitory action or transit actions. Right.

958
01:35:02,039 --> 01:35:06,159
And if you look this up,
if you look into tomistic and Scholastic

959
01:35:06,199 --> 01:35:13,680
theology. It doesn't rescue the objection
because, first of all, imminent activity

960
01:35:13,760 --> 01:35:16,880
in God is synonymous with the divine
essence and is necessary. So even if

961
01:35:16,920 --> 01:35:21,199
he tries to say this, it
doesn't do anything for him. It's just

962
01:35:21,680 --> 01:35:27,840
introducing another distinction to have God thinking
about and knowing the divine plan of the

963
01:35:27,880 --> 01:35:31,600
creative order versus God willing to exercise
that. And that's why I'm going to

964
01:35:31,600 --> 01:35:38,760
ask him. Yeah, but doesn't
God have in his mind the knowledge up

965
01:35:38,760 --> 01:35:43,079
doesn't even know all the possible worlds, and yet he doesn't actualize all of

966
01:35:43,119 --> 01:35:46,479
them. So there's capacity in God
in the case of transing detection because transingtection

967
01:35:46,600 --> 01:35:50,920
necessarily proceeds from the agent to the
patient. So if there's a transing pation,

968
01:35:51,039 --> 01:35:57,239
now you've introduced a new distinction into
God. Right, Yeah, of

969
01:35:57,359 --> 01:36:03,079
course there's transient So he's introducing a
distinction to get around the objection by saying

970
01:36:03,119 --> 01:36:09,880
that there's imminent action in God and
transient action that refers to the receiver of

971
01:36:10,399 --> 01:36:15,279
the agent's action. Right, But
this is all just questioning acts and there's

972
01:36:15,319 --> 01:36:16,760
eternal acts. What are transit acts? No? No, no, no,

973
01:36:17,560 --> 01:36:23,600
you believe that thought's action. So
first let me define two. Yeah,

974
01:36:23,680 --> 01:36:26,560
okay, I'm going to explain it. So the emin intaction, as

975
01:36:26,600 --> 01:36:30,159
theirs thought explains in Metaphysics Books None, chapter eight, the emin intactions and

976
01:36:30,279 --> 01:36:34,840
action whose terminus is in the agents. He gives the example of acts of

977
01:36:34,960 --> 01:36:43,960
new Ingaenville, and Venue. Again, this doesn't work for God and the

978
01:36:44,039 --> 01:36:48,439
created order because the point is that
the divine ideas in the Divine mind are

979
01:36:48,600 --> 01:36:55,680
eternal and are just as necessary as
the divine nature because they're identified to the

980
01:36:56,000 --> 01:36:59,159
in the divine Do you understand that
they're identical to the divine essence, The

981
01:36:59,239 --> 01:37:03,279
divine plan the create order is identical
to the divine essence. Therefore, if

982
01:37:03,279 --> 01:37:10,159
they're identicals, then they're also necessary. Therefore, the plan of the created

983
01:37:10,279 --> 01:37:17,479
order necessitates an eternal creation that comes
forth. So the originists and even Aristotle

984
01:37:17,560 --> 01:37:23,039
on this point are more consistent because
if you're saying that God is an eternal,

985
01:37:23,199 --> 01:37:27,840
for example, actualizer, there must
be something that he actualizes other than

986
01:37:27,920 --> 01:37:33,399
himself. Right. If God has
an eternal, necessary created order, then

987
01:37:33,479 --> 01:37:39,319
he must exercise that. And he's
already said the action of creating is eternal.

988
01:37:40,279 --> 01:37:45,600
But they're saying, but the terminus, they're saying that the effect is

989
01:37:45,680 --> 01:37:49,920
temporal. We know that, and
we're saying that that is inconsistent because it's

990
01:37:50,000 --> 01:37:57,920
a creation in time. It's a
work that is specific in time. And

991
01:37:58,039 --> 01:38:00,479
this is where they start to have
problems with God being in time and space.

992
01:38:01,079 --> 01:38:04,479
Baser says that God cannot be in
time and space. He says that

993
01:38:04,560 --> 01:38:11,760
in the chapter on the Plotinian argument
for God's existence, he says, that's

994
01:38:11,760 --> 01:38:15,239
a good argument we can borrow.
We can use Plotinus's argument that God cannot

995
01:38:15,279 --> 01:38:19,079
be in time and space because it
would require him to change and undergo change.

996
01:38:19,520 --> 01:38:25,479
Oh, good job undercutting the incarnation, because the incarnation is the second

997
01:38:25,840 --> 01:38:29,840
hypostasis of the Godhead in time and
space, really doing actions in time and

998
01:38:29,880 --> 01:38:33,640
space, not just human actions,
not just created effects, divine actions.

999
01:38:34,159 --> 01:38:39,520
John Damascus says walking on water is
a demonstration of a specific divine act,

1000
01:38:39,720 --> 01:38:44,119
a divine power in time and space. You know, saying Thomas can't say

1001
01:38:44,159 --> 01:38:48,520
that. Thomas have to say that
everything Christ does in time and space is

1002
01:38:48,560 --> 01:38:56,399
a created effect because they believe it
would compromise their doctrine of simplicity and their

1003
01:38:56,479 --> 01:39:02,439
doctrine of pure act and so all
of this philosophy philosophizing undercuts the incarnation.

1004
01:39:03,039 --> 01:39:08,159
And remember, at the end of
the day, Roman Catholicism is no longer

1005
01:39:08,319 --> 01:39:15,760
this scholastic tomistic thing that Internet nerds
are all obsessed with. Roman Catholicism is

1006
01:39:15,800 --> 01:39:24,079
Francis. You can larp all day
long that Roman Catholicism is medieval monastics and

1007
01:39:24,239 --> 01:39:33,680
some you know monastery somewhere snorting book
dust all day long and writing vast tones

1008
01:39:33,720 --> 01:39:39,159
of thousands of pages. That doesn't
exist anymore. You live in a fantasy

1009
01:39:39,239 --> 01:39:45,159
world. The reality is Francis in
Rome. The reality is the Abu Dhabi

1010
01:39:45,239 --> 01:39:49,239
Faith Center. So we can get
into all the weeds of all of this.

1011
01:39:49,720 --> 01:39:54,479
At the end of the day,
this system failed, This system is

1012
01:39:54,600 --> 01:40:00,199
no longer held in Rome as the
normative system. They don't care that Leo

1013
01:40:00,239 --> 01:40:04,239
the thirteenth said that scholastic Toomism is
the official teacher. Francis doesn't care.

1014
01:40:05,960 --> 01:40:13,600
Francis just paid a document called the
Alexandria Document, which concedes the orthodox critiques

1015
01:40:13,600 --> 01:40:16,800
of the papacy. Go read the
Alexandria Document. That's the reality of Rome.

1016
01:40:17,239 --> 01:40:20,840
That's where your church really is.
It doesn't exist in the fantasy world

1017
01:40:20,920 --> 01:40:26,159
of Internet and Thomas on the Internet
and twenty year old guys in some other

1018
01:40:26,239 --> 01:40:31,119
country spurging out over this that doesn't
exist in reality. It's Francis, that's

1019
01:40:31,159 --> 01:40:38,079
the reality. It's the assy meetings
that are the reality. And all of

1020
01:40:38,119 --> 01:40:43,319
this is a distraction from that,
because this stuff is not your church anymore.

1021
01:40:43,840 --> 01:40:47,119
This is medieval stuff. And you
all know this, and this is

1022
01:40:47,159 --> 01:40:50,680
why you get so mad and play
the gatcha game something the acts of knowing.

1023
01:40:51,319 --> 01:40:55,960
When Bill something, the acts of
filling is in you, whereas there's

1024
01:40:56,000 --> 01:41:00,279
a transient action which is not in
you but in the thing. It's in

1025
01:41:00,399 --> 01:41:04,560
the thing that is acted at possible. All he's stating is that the transient

1026
01:41:04,600 --> 01:41:09,079
action is the created order that receives
the effect of being created right, that

1027
01:41:09,159 --> 01:41:13,600
receives the coming into being, and
so forth, once again cashing everything out

1028
01:41:13,680 --> 01:41:18,119
as to cause and effect dual scheme, never addressing the specific objection, which

1029
01:41:18,199 --> 01:41:28,199
is about the power creating itself,
always coming up with twofold distinctions intitative,

1030
01:41:29,680 --> 01:41:34,000
the terminus, the imminent, the
internal, the external, recipient whatever.

1031
01:41:36,279 --> 01:41:42,960
None of that addresses all these dents, restating other Tomistic views of cashing things

1032
01:41:43,039 --> 01:41:47,119
out as cause and effect agent recipient
not address. This doesn't address objection.

1033
01:41:47,159 --> 01:41:49,840
For example, if you build the
house. Yeah, but the action of

1034
01:41:50,039 --> 01:41:55,800
creating is not attornings. All you're
doing is inventing distinctions that don't answer the

1035
01:41:55,920 --> 01:41:58,560
question. You're just saying, oh, well, there's another distinction. There's

1036
01:41:58,560 --> 01:42:01,920
another distinction. I know that he's
not literally himself inventing them. I'm saying

1037
01:42:01,960 --> 01:42:09,159
that the scholastic position invents distinctions to
make systems work, and that's notorious for

1038
01:42:09,239 --> 01:42:14,760
scholasticism, and it only attracts these
hyper spergy people who will eventually when they

1039
01:42:14,800 --> 01:42:17,920
figure out that their worldview in their
church doesn't believe the stuff anymore, will

1040
01:42:17,960 --> 01:42:23,720
cause them to have a crisis of
faiths. The distinctions are inconsistent with what

1041
01:42:23,800 --> 01:42:27,359
you're saying. So it's all you're
doing. If you let me lay out

1042
01:42:27,439 --> 01:42:31,960
my position, you're nothing consistent.
Laying out your position is just stating what

1043
01:42:32,079 --> 01:42:35,960
you think is the case. That
doesn't make it consistent because it's not anti

1044
01:42:38,640 --> 01:42:42,119
So again I'm giving objections and he's
saying, let me just keep laying out

1045
01:42:42,119 --> 01:42:44,640
the position. Laying out the position, let me lay out more of the

1046
01:42:44,680 --> 01:42:47,279
position. That's not an argument.
We're already passed. We agree what Tomism

1047
01:42:47,399 --> 01:42:50,600
teaches, and so he's just let
me, let me say more Tomism though

1048
01:42:51,600 --> 01:42:57,960
asking why it's a consistent but it's
just inventing a new neo school. It's

1049
01:42:58,000 --> 01:43:00,920
a scholastic distinction to say, oh, well, the problem is resolved by

1050
01:43:00,960 --> 01:43:03,279
saying that there's two different types of
acts, and it's all it's doing is

1051
01:43:03,359 --> 01:43:08,439
restating by saying there's a transitive versus
a nontransitive act. It's restating the very

1052
01:43:08,560 --> 01:43:11,600
original question, which was, how
is the action of God, which is

1053
01:43:11,680 --> 01:43:16,399
eternal directed towards creation, not affecting
eternal creation? And you're saying, well,

1054
01:43:16,399 --> 01:43:19,840
because there's transitive action, there's imminent
acts, right, That's what I'm

1055
01:43:19,880 --> 01:43:25,039
trying to explain. Any that distinction
is just another kicking the candem. How

1056
01:43:25,079 --> 01:43:28,720
do we know that that distinction is
actually in God? That's the point.

1057
01:43:30,000 --> 01:43:35,279
And he's just gonna lay out more
Temism because again, how many distinctions have

1058
01:43:35,399 --> 01:43:40,000
we had? Now piled up a
lot of them, and again maybe maybe

1059
01:43:40,079 --> 01:43:44,560
that isn't God, but you understand
that it's an ad hoc rescue when you

1060
01:43:44,720 --> 01:43:49,000
pile them on and don't address what
the objection is. The objection has been

1061
01:43:49,039 --> 01:43:53,840
consistently. The attributes are all identical, so we don't know if it's telling

1062
01:43:53,920 --> 01:43:57,920
us anything about the actual object.
When we ask for that grounding in the

1063
01:43:58,000 --> 01:44:02,079
object, you said it's in the
mind, and you said a bunch of

1064
01:44:02,159 --> 01:44:06,520
begging the question that, well,
it's just the external object. God impresses

1065
01:44:06,560 --> 01:44:12,199
that upon our mind. There's a
power that he possesses that impresses that upon

1066
01:44:12,279 --> 01:44:15,319
our minds. That's what we want
to know. How do we know that

1067
01:44:15,439 --> 01:44:20,279
that's the case based on created analogs
to these attributes, which are not actually

1068
01:44:20,399 --> 01:44:25,399
multiple, they're actually all just one. Do you see that it cancels out

1069
01:44:26,239 --> 01:44:30,560
the reality of those things does not
correspond to what they are in our virtual

1070
01:44:30,560 --> 01:44:35,520
conception. The mode of their existence
totally different. And so what's it all

1071
01:44:35,560 --> 01:44:39,520
based? Well, but there's an
analogy between them? That's the how do

1072
01:44:39,600 --> 01:44:44,600
we know that that? You're just
saying that on what basis do we match

1073
01:44:44,720 --> 01:44:47,720
that up? Given the way you
cash out divine simplicity. That's never answered,

1074
01:44:47,720 --> 01:44:50,319
it's never addressed. They just brush
past it. It doesn't answer the

1075
01:44:50,399 --> 01:44:56,119
objection. All they do is introduce
new distinctions. You're saying you can invent

1076
01:44:56,159 --> 01:45:00,439
and distinction these distinctions all day long, but they don't answer the objection.

1077
01:45:00,239 --> 01:45:04,159
They do know they don't, so
they just do do they answer? They

1078
01:45:04,560 --> 01:45:10,439
just do. It's adding on new
distinctions in the system. Okay, So

1079
01:45:10,760 --> 01:45:13,520
I mean so if you just add
another distinction, how does that answer the

1080
01:45:13,640 --> 01:45:16,119
question I'm trying to ask her,
and you're just cutting me out. Like,

1081
01:45:16,880 --> 01:45:21,479
so, let's be clear about imminent
activity, right, and you can

1082
01:45:21,560 --> 01:45:27,720
find different academic sites for this for
the sake of the audience. Eminent activity

1083
01:45:27,720 --> 01:45:30,199
in the ristilianti mystic tradition is very
precise. It is an activity that has

1084
01:45:30,239 --> 01:45:34,720
no product, and of itself is
perfective of the agent that carries it on.

1085
01:45:35,159 --> 01:45:39,880
So it's an an internal sort of
It doesn't I can think about and

1086
01:45:40,000 --> 01:45:43,359
he'll use the example, or he
maybe he already did. Uh, you

1087
01:45:43,439 --> 01:45:45,960
know, in two years, I
want to build a house. This does

1088
01:45:45,039 --> 01:45:50,199
not work. When you've already said
that God is second act. There's no

1089
01:45:50,319 --> 01:45:57,359
such thing as a distinction between imminent
activity that doesn't necessitate the actual effect.

1090
01:45:59,239 --> 01:46:04,960
The power of creating cannot be a
purely eminent activity distinct from the external at

1091
01:46:05,000 --> 01:46:13,920
extra effect. Otherwise, God is
not second act anymore, because what he's

1092
01:46:13,960 --> 01:46:19,279
wanting to introduce is that God can
will to create or not. But remember

1093
01:46:19,560 --> 01:46:26,439
God's will is synonymous with the divine
essence and is eternal and is necessary,

1094
01:46:27,680 --> 01:46:31,920
So every act is eternal unnecessary.
But no, it's not. Because there's

1095
01:46:31,960 --> 01:46:38,159
imminent ones and then there's transitive external
recipient ones. You're just inventing distinctions that

1096
01:46:38,279 --> 01:46:41,720
are not consistent with what you what
you previously said, it's an ad hoc

1097
01:46:41,800 --> 01:46:45,560
rescue. Stating the system. You
don't understand. It's not Thomas. You

1098
01:46:45,640 --> 01:46:49,520
guys think. You guys think that
stating your system is an argument the system.

1099
01:46:50,000 --> 01:46:53,560
You don't understand. It's not Thomas. You guys think. You guys

1100
01:46:53,640 --> 01:46:56,560
think that stating your system. I
hope that Father you can can come on

1101
01:46:56,680 --> 01:47:05,159
and talk about knowing the first cause
what's better known by us versus what's known

1102
01:47:05,199 --> 01:47:11,720
in itself, because a lot of
this pertains back to the Aristotelian principle that

1103
01:47:12,119 --> 01:47:16,640
undergirds a lot of Tomaism and undergirds
the analogia. And Father Digga Duck right

1104
01:47:16,640 --> 01:47:20,399
now says a lot of good talks
and works on that very very Tom We're

1105
01:47:20,399 --> 01:47:24,720
almost done. No, I'm not
just taking my system. I'm proving getting

1106
01:47:24,880 --> 01:47:30,760
all all you having, so all
he's done is state thomasm. And now

1107
01:47:30,800 --> 01:47:35,199
he's saying, I've proven my system. He didn't prove Jack. And this

1108
01:47:35,359 --> 01:47:40,720
is where I am starting to get
annoyed because everything has been fine up until

1109
01:47:40,760 --> 01:47:45,800
not we've agreed, until I start
to ask questions, I start to raise

1110
01:47:45,840 --> 01:47:50,319
objections, and he says, I'm
proving my system. All you've done is

1111
01:47:50,359 --> 01:47:54,760
state your system. But this is
how these people think. They literally think

1112
01:47:54,800 --> 01:48:00,439
that when you state tomaism, it's
proving it all you have it. No,

1113
01:48:00,680 --> 01:48:02,600
I'm proving attain. You were saying, oh, you don't have a

1114
01:48:02,640 --> 01:48:06,720
response, and you think the proof
is just stating new distinctions that don't answer

1115
01:48:06,760 --> 01:48:14,239
the question. It doesn't answer the
question. How I'm telling you're not letting

1116
01:48:14,279 --> 01:48:17,039
me. I'm let him talk for
the last twenty minutes. What do you

1117
01:48:17,079 --> 01:48:19,640
mean, I'm not letting him totally? Not. This is where it starts

1118
01:48:19,640 --> 01:48:23,680
to getting letting you talk. You've
talked all the time. No, every

1119
01:48:23,720 --> 01:48:26,720
time I speak and say, oh, that's a new distinction list because it's

1120
01:48:27,239 --> 01:48:30,720
you think I didn't start interrupting and
bumping into it. But until about seventeen

1121
01:48:30,720 --> 01:48:32,960
minutes into his thing, and by
the way, he said after about five

1122
01:48:33,000 --> 01:48:36,279
minutes that I could talk anyway.
I think that laying out a position is

1123
01:48:36,279 --> 01:48:40,000
an argument. That's not what an
argument is. Yeah, but if I

1124
01:48:40,079 --> 01:48:43,000
don't lay out my position, how
are you godn't know what my response is?

1125
01:48:43,119 --> 01:48:45,640
When are you going to address the
objection? Because I've asked you the

1126
01:48:45,680 --> 01:48:48,319
same question like four times and you
just keep I didn't answer your question.

1127
01:48:48,640 --> 01:48:54,680
I said, from any trinal action, it's not it's begging the question.

1128
01:48:55,079 --> 01:48:58,520
It's begging the question. You're just
moving the can back and stuff by introducing

1129
01:48:58,560 --> 01:49:01,960
a new No. Yes, of
course, because but look, each one

1130
01:49:02,000 --> 01:49:08,920
of the distinctions just he states the
divide between God and world, cause and

1131
01:49:09,000 --> 01:49:14,039
effect. It's not addressing the objection. Yes, I'm interesting the objection.

1132
01:49:14,159 --> 01:49:19,239
No, you're not stating your possession
addressing Jay Jay if my name, just

1133
01:49:19,439 --> 01:49:24,960
address the argument. Okay, what
should I call you? You don't have

1134
01:49:25,079 --> 01:49:29,680
to repeat my name, just address
the argument. Okay, Sorry, I'm

1135
01:49:29,720 --> 01:49:33,439
sorry. Okay. So I'm saying
that from any trinal action, tnal effect

1136
01:49:33,840 --> 01:49:42,199
follows. If the action is formally
transient, how are we granting and knowing

1137
01:49:42,319 --> 01:49:46,960
that the distinction between imminent and transient
is the case. Again, he's just

1138
01:49:47,079 --> 01:49:50,760
stating that, well, there's these
different types of things. You see another

1139
01:49:50,840 --> 01:49:57,840
another layer and level of distinction.
Right, I want to know why should

1140
01:49:57,880 --> 01:50:00,319
we think that's the case, especially
given all of the other things that have

1141
01:50:00,399 --> 01:50:04,439
been said, and what does he
do just keep stating the position. I'm

1142
01:50:04,479 --> 01:50:11,720
saying that that that distinction is an
ad hoc distinction. That doesn't I'm not

1143
01:50:11,880 --> 01:50:15,479
saying, by the way, when
I when I call the distinction ad hoc,

1144
01:50:15,600 --> 01:50:18,880
I'm not saying that that's not a
toomistic position, right, because if

1145
01:50:18,920 --> 01:50:26,359
you look up you know scholastic philosophy. Yeah, Thomas and Aerosol talk about

1146
01:50:26,399 --> 01:50:32,399
this. I'm saying that it's not
functioning as he repeats this position to do

1147
01:50:32,600 --> 01:50:35,760
the work that he wants it to
do. It's not answering my objection.

1148
01:50:36,760 --> 01:50:41,840
Okay, that's why it's at It's
an ad hoc rescue against my argument.

1149
01:50:41,880 --> 01:50:44,000
I'm not saying that the Thomas don't
believe this. I know that they do.

1150
01:50:44,199 --> 01:50:46,359
Okay, Okay, let's be give
you an example. Suppose that I'll

1151
01:50:46,359 --> 01:50:49,119
pay attention to his example, because
this is a key point where he makes

1152
01:50:49,159 --> 01:50:55,760
a big mistake. His example is
not actually going to work to the question

1153
01:50:55,840 --> 01:51:00,239
of creating. He's going to use
a creaturely example, which is very silar

1154
01:51:00,239 --> 01:51:03,319
two kinds of examples that Bradshaw is
for first act and second act right,

1155
01:51:04,319 --> 01:51:08,159
and his example is not gonna work
for what he wants it to do.

1156
01:51:08,319 --> 01:51:15,119
It doesn't correspond to God in creation
punched the wall. Okay, can you

1157
01:51:15,159 --> 01:51:18,960
hear me? Yeah, you're punching
off the wall and wall getting punched are

1158
01:51:19,000 --> 01:51:26,800
simultaneous, right, M. Yeah, So that's it. That's an example

1159
01:51:26,840 --> 01:51:33,520
of transin tections. So the cause
and effect are simultaneous. M. And

1160
01:51:33,640 --> 01:51:39,720
then there's an action called emminenttection,
such as active filing. You can able

1161
01:51:39,800 --> 01:51:44,439
to build a house like now,
but you can actually build it like to

1162
01:51:44,600 --> 01:51:47,239
your boom. You hear that,
let's hear it that repeat it, because

1163
01:51:47,319 --> 01:51:53,960
this is the capacity's first and second
actuality argument. This is the point where

1164
01:51:54,000 --> 01:51:59,600
their position is not consistent. This
is why I was hammering first and second

1165
01:51:59,640 --> 01:52:04,279
act earlier on, and he agreed
earlier on that God is only second act

1166
01:52:04,880 --> 01:52:11,840
right exactly. Now he wants to
use an analogy of a power in a

1167
01:52:11,920 --> 01:52:15,479
capacity that I don't have to actualize. This is where he messed up.

1168
01:52:15,000 --> 01:52:19,840
Let's repeat it. So that's an
example of transintection, so the cause and

1169
01:52:20,000 --> 01:52:30,239
effect are simultaneous, and then there's
an action called emminenttection, such as active

1170
01:52:30,279 --> 01:52:33,199
building. You can't able to build
a house like now, but you can

1171
01:52:33,800 --> 01:52:40,640
actually build it like two years later. So it guess what, You just

1172
01:52:40,960 --> 01:52:45,359
shot yourself in the foot, because
that is an example that requires first act

1173
01:52:45,439 --> 01:52:51,039
as a capacity and second actuality as
an actualization. That doesn't exist in God.

1174
01:52:51,079 --> 01:52:57,000
According to you, that's when you
messed up. The effect doesn't have

1175
01:52:57,159 --> 01:53:00,159
to follow just because you have an
action in mind. Just because you want

1176
01:53:00,239 --> 01:53:03,119
to build the house, that doesn't
mean you're actually going to Yeah, but

1177
01:53:03,439 --> 01:53:09,479
God doesn't as an analogy to God
because God is pure No, it doesn't.

1178
01:53:09,720 --> 01:53:13,600
God is pure act. Therefore that
analogy does not work. He used

1179
01:53:13,640 --> 01:53:17,680
a creaturely analogy of a capacity that
I don't have to actualize. Earlier,

1180
01:53:17,760 --> 01:53:24,159
he said, God is pure act
with no unrealized capacities, only second act.

1181
01:53:27,600 --> 01:53:31,199
And this is what you guys are
all thinking that you had this great

1182
01:53:31,279 --> 01:53:34,760
gotcha. So this is the essence
of the debate. I'll play the last

1183
01:53:34,800 --> 01:53:39,159
couple of minutes. Then he just
starts getting alsoy about me, saying that

1184
01:53:39,279 --> 01:53:42,920
the conversation was bullshit. He acts
like I attacked him. Well, are

1185
01:53:42,960 --> 01:53:45,279
you custing? So I didn't insult
you, I said the conversation is bullshit,

1186
01:53:45,840 --> 01:53:50,760
because that would mean your your argument
that you just gave there is based

1187
01:53:50,880 --> 01:53:57,239
on first act and second act.
Yes, it is first hold on,

1188
01:53:57,760 --> 01:54:00,319
listen, you want me to make
Look, I understand your position. So

1189
01:54:01,199 --> 01:54:05,079
let me put it this way.
Let me ask you a question. Are

1190
01:54:05,119 --> 01:54:10,279
there worlds that God could have created
that he did it? Yeah? Of

1191
01:54:10,399 --> 01:54:17,439
course, So not every potentiality is
actualized, right, Yeah, because because

1192
01:54:17,520 --> 01:54:20,880
duels are secondary objects, they're not
on the part of God's acts, which

1193
01:54:20,960 --> 01:54:26,600
is in stated. Well, hold
on, it doesn't matter that they're quotes

1194
01:54:26,640 --> 01:54:30,199
secondary objects because they're based on the
divine ideas, which are in the divine

1195
01:54:30,319 --> 01:54:33,800
essence and synonymous with the divine essence. That's the point in terms of the

1196
01:54:33,880 --> 01:54:40,279
divine ideas, that the divine ideas
also contain all the possible worlds doesn't matter,

1197
01:54:40,399 --> 01:54:44,439
because doesn't God possess in the divine
essence all the ideas of all the

1198
01:54:44,479 --> 01:54:49,600
possible worlds? Sure, then the
possible worlds, which are divine ideas,

1199
01:54:49,880 --> 01:54:54,880
are also just as necessary as the
other ideas in the Divine essence because the

1200
01:54:54,920 --> 01:54:58,560
mine essence is necessary, an eternal, and it's anonymous with the power creating

1201
01:54:58,600 --> 01:55:01,159
an act of action of creating.
Okay, did he actualize all the possible

1202
01:55:01,159 --> 01:55:05,439
worlds? No? Because the divine
there's capacities of potential and God. No.

1203
01:55:06,000 --> 01:55:11,960
No, no, His very example
of me thinking about building a house,

1204
01:55:12,079 --> 01:55:15,800
having the power to do it,
and waiting to actualize it, right,

1205
01:55:15,520 --> 01:55:24,439
is a creaturely capacity first act moved
to second act example, which doesn't

1206
01:55:24,479 --> 01:55:28,520
apply to what he says about God, who he said earlier is only second

1207
01:55:28,600 --> 01:55:32,319
act, only pure act. Yes, no, yes, I'm explaining how

1208
01:55:32,560 --> 01:55:38,279
that doesn't follow. He doesn't explain
it. He just gives more tomistic position

1209
01:55:38,520 --> 01:55:41,279
every time. This is all they
ever do. Should follow, But you're

1210
01:55:41,319 --> 01:55:43,840
not consistent, that's the point.
No, no, it does. It

1211
01:55:43,960 --> 01:55:48,359
actually does not follow. By Yeah, I'm explaining because all of those possible

1212
01:55:48,479 --> 01:55:53,920
worlds that you call those are considered
as secondary objects of the divine relation.

1213
01:55:54,199 --> 01:56:00,199
Now since Field he's talking about the
creative effects, right, But it doesn't

1214
01:56:00,199 --> 01:56:04,439
matter because the creative effects are based
on all of the divine ideas of the

1215
01:56:04,560 --> 01:56:10,279
possible worlds and the actual world that
God created that are also in the divine

1216
01:56:10,359 --> 01:56:16,039
essence, and they're also anonymous.
Remember how he defined the minor virtual distinction

1217
01:56:16,079 --> 01:56:21,760
of the attributes. That's the same
for the divine ideas in Tomism, and

1218
01:56:21,880 --> 01:56:29,319
you can go read that in Whipple. This is inconsistent, though I understand,

1219
01:56:29,720 --> 01:56:32,239
Yes, it is. I understand
that you believe. I mean every

1220
01:56:32,279 --> 01:56:35,760
time I explain something, because I
already know this position. I've had this

1221
01:56:35,840 --> 01:56:38,680
debate for like, no, no, no, no, I don't think

1222
01:56:38,720 --> 01:56:42,720
you do an every time I do
understand the consistent without giving any arguments.

1223
01:56:43,560 --> 01:56:48,439
So he knows I understand the position
because we already got fifteen minutes in and

1224
01:56:48,560 --> 01:56:51,880
he understood. We both understood that
we're saying the same position. So he

1225
01:56:53,000 --> 01:56:59,000
knows I'm not misunderstanding the position.
But he's not addressing the objections that I

1226
01:57:00,079 --> 01:57:01,159
brought up. Number one, This
is not the first time I brought these

1227
01:57:01,199 --> 01:57:04,279
objections. These are objections we brought
up. I've been bringing up these objections

1228
01:57:04,319 --> 01:57:08,560
since I first learned to them,
at least ten or twelve years ago.

1229
01:57:10,239 --> 01:57:14,159
I'm gonna get say, oh,
that's bullshit. You want to do you

1230
01:57:14,199 --> 01:57:18,039
want to just cut this off?
We won't conversation. Why are you insulting

1231
01:57:18,199 --> 01:57:21,880
me, I said that is bullshit, and now he's mad that quote I'm

1232
01:57:21,920 --> 01:57:25,960
insulting him. It's not an insult
to you to say that what you said

1233
01:57:26,039 --> 01:57:29,880
right there's bullshit. That's just that's
just how normal dudes talk. I'm sure

1234
01:57:30,000 --> 01:57:33,159
that in these circles there's not normal
dudes. But I mean, when I'm

1235
01:57:33,199 --> 01:57:35,560
talking to my bros, we say, that's a bunch of bs. Okay,

1236
01:57:35,560 --> 01:57:41,479
you tuldn't get your feelings hurt over
that. That's it the end of

1237
01:57:41,479 --> 01:57:45,319
the discussion right there. So we're
gonna open it up. Hopefully everybody can

1238
01:57:45,439 --> 01:57:47,760
understand. I've got I'm ready to
talk to any Thomas that want to talk,

1239
01:57:48,439 --> 01:57:51,279
and you can make whatever points you
want. Don't get butt hurt and

1240
01:57:51,359 --> 01:57:58,880
start crying about me saying something's BS. If I think it's BSSBS, big

1241
01:57:59,000 --> 01:58:08,359
deal. And there's quite a few
people here, I guess actually there's not

1242
01:58:08,439 --> 01:58:12,159
that many people here. There's ninety
on Twitter. Any of anybody who wants

1243
01:58:12,199 --> 01:58:15,319
to come on can talk, request
to speak, uh, father deacon on

1244
01:58:15,399 --> 01:58:20,039
if you wanted to talk or not. But Danny, what's up, Danny?

1245
01:58:30,279 --> 01:58:42,840
I guess it's connecting for him.
Go ahead, Danny, h Well,

1246
01:58:42,880 --> 01:58:45,520
it's trying to connect to him.
We'll go to Garrett. What's up,

1247
01:58:45,560 --> 01:59:06,880
Garrett, m We got all blurred
out? What's up? Garrett?

1248
01:59:09,760 --> 01:59:19,399
Can nobody connect you Gotta? I'm
mute if you would. Also, you

1249
01:59:19,439 --> 01:59:26,279
can support the stream vias super chats. Nobody wants to talk naktarios. What's

1250
01:59:26,359 --> 01:59:36,039
up? Hello? What's up?
Hey? Jake? Uh? I had

1251
01:59:36,039 --> 01:59:42,119
a quick question on baptism and the
reception of heterodoxy. Okay, that's not

1252
01:59:42,239 --> 01:59:44,159
the topic today. Man. I'm
not trying to be rude to you,

1253
01:59:44,359 --> 01:59:56,479
but like it's all about tomism.
So Jesse, what's up? You gotta?

1254
01:59:56,520 --> 02:00:01,279
I'm mute? Man, Hey Jake, thanks for taking time to answer

1255
02:00:01,279 --> 02:00:04,920
a few questions. I had a
bit of a mini challenge for you.

1256
02:00:08,319 --> 02:00:14,920
Let me preface the question with this
quick observation. I'm finding in my conversations

1257
02:00:14,960 --> 02:00:21,279
and just society in general, that
we're just not really a philosophically literate society,

1258
02:00:21,960 --> 02:00:30,800
Like we don't really value rigorous thoughts
and like even using basic terms like

1259
02:00:30,880 --> 02:00:35,239
epistemology, ontology, blah blah blah, claims those just go over I would

1260
02:00:35,279 --> 02:00:40,159
say ninety five percent of people's heads. And I'm not claiming that like I'm

1261
02:00:40,199 --> 02:00:43,920
an arm chairful. I'm like,
I'm from the side look looking at this

1262
02:00:43,920 --> 02:00:47,479
stuff. So a lot of this, a lot of philosophical arguments can go

1263
02:00:47,560 --> 02:00:53,640
over are a bit too lofty for
me as well. I get the sense

1264
02:00:53,880 --> 02:00:59,359
that when this is your audience,
not you, it's specifically, but in

1265
02:00:59,479 --> 02:01:04,520
general, people just end up hearing
like a word salad and it just gets

1266
02:01:04,640 --> 02:01:10,199
dismissed because they just it just goes
over their heads. So here's my question.

1267
02:01:11,319 --> 02:01:16,439
Could you explain the transcendental argument for
God to say a ten or twelve

1268
02:01:16,520 --> 02:01:23,079
year old? Could you could you
like simplify to that degree, considering this

1269
02:01:23,279 --> 02:01:29,960
audience doesn't know much about philosophical terms
and whatnot. I mean, we've done

1270
02:01:30,000 --> 02:01:33,199
many talks, you know, where
we make a kind of a easier,

1271
02:01:33,279 --> 02:01:38,359
simpler presentation of TAG. I mean
today we're talking about you know, tomism

1272
02:01:38,399 --> 02:01:43,119
in these issues. But I think
the easiest way to make TAG for younger

1273
02:01:43,199 --> 02:01:47,520
people is to talk about how arguments
the argument from the ethical angle. I

1274
02:01:47,600 --> 02:01:50,600
mean, if if there aren't if
there is no transcendent realm at all,

1275
02:01:50,720 --> 02:01:56,039
if God doesn't exist, then there
really is no basis for morals or for

1276
02:01:57,479 --> 02:02:01,199
ethical claims, right and wrong.
There's no basis for you know, saying

1277
02:02:01,319 --> 02:02:04,119
this is good. This is about
value. Judgments really don't have any way

1278
02:02:04,199 --> 02:02:09,399
to be grounded beyond pure subjectivity.
So I think the easiest way to introduce

1279
02:02:09,479 --> 02:02:13,600
it to you know, ten thirteen
year old people is to say things like,

1280
02:02:13,960 --> 02:02:16,359
you know, relativism is self refuting, right. These are elements of

1281
02:02:16,399 --> 02:02:20,079
the transient argument, where you say
things like there's no there is no truth.

1282
02:02:20,560 --> 02:02:23,680
Well, that's a truth claim that
there is no truth. Right,

1283
02:02:24,359 --> 02:02:29,159
everything is relative. Well, that's
contradicting the notion that everything is relative because

1284
02:02:29,199 --> 02:02:31,880
you're saying that this is objectively true. And if this is objectively true,

1285
02:02:31,920 --> 02:02:35,000
then it's not the case that everything
is relative. So these are kind of

1286
02:02:35,000 --> 02:02:40,640
easy ways to introduce people to TAG, and I've met many teenagers over the

1287
02:02:40,720 --> 02:02:46,560
years who have understood TAG at that
level. Interesting. Yeah, that's that's

1288
02:02:46,720 --> 02:02:49,600
that's interesting. How would you were
you were to take the next step and

1289
02:02:49,720 --> 02:02:57,520
start to bring in issues like well, we assume mathematics or we get into

1290
02:02:57,560 --> 02:03:00,840
that realm of like, yeah,
that's taken it out of fix and into

1291
02:03:00,000 --> 02:03:03,800
and knowledge and into metaphysics, and
so metaphysics is usually you know, a

1292
02:03:03,840 --> 02:03:09,119
little more difficult little more technical of
a domain, and so it might be

1293
02:03:09,239 --> 02:03:15,199
longer to wait. You might want
to wait longer. By the way,

1294
02:03:15,439 --> 02:03:17,039
all the Thomas and the chat like, I mean, we got an open

1295
02:03:17,159 --> 02:03:20,880
chat right here, and you can
talk. But I'm not I'm not gonna

1296
02:03:21,840 --> 02:03:29,439
ban you or boot you unless you
do something right to make me do that.

1297
02:03:30,800 --> 02:03:33,159
So you can come on and make
your points. I mean, if

1298
02:03:33,199 --> 02:03:38,600
you saw in the conversation with the
guy, I mean, we went fine

1299
02:03:38,640 --> 02:03:41,840
for the first first fifteen minutes.
And so if you want to address those

1300
02:03:41,920 --> 02:03:45,439
kinds of objections and if you want
to get into the actual specifics of like

1301
02:03:46,359 --> 02:03:50,399
you know, tomistic metaphysics, let's
do it. I mean, that's I'm

1302
02:03:50,439 --> 02:03:53,640
giving you the Twitter space right there, and so I'm not trying to be

1303
02:03:53,720 --> 02:03:57,479
mean to you, Jesse. I
know those that those are good questions.

1304
02:03:57,560 --> 02:04:03,520
But really this this stream was directed
towards responding to a lot of these tomistic

1305
02:04:03,560 --> 02:04:09,359
positions and claims and arguments. And
father Deacon, are you there, are

1306
02:04:09,439 --> 02:04:15,640
you able to talk for a little
bit? Would you speak maybe if you

1307
02:04:15,720 --> 02:04:18,960
could to some of the topics that
you and I've talked about for many years,

1308
02:04:19,079 --> 02:04:25,560
and and you know, like your
paper you talked about knowing the good

1309
02:04:25,960 --> 02:04:30,439
Uh, well, knowing something as
it appears to us versus as it is

1310
02:04:30,520 --> 02:04:33,840
in itself. And you know,
when you you did a good critique,

1311
02:04:33,880 --> 02:04:40,880
I think of Thomas's you know,
position that every effect contains a similarity to

1312
02:04:41,000 --> 02:04:44,920
its cause. I mean, these
are really the positions that underlie the tomistic

1313
02:04:45,000 --> 02:04:47,640
analogia. And that's the problem is
that those are the things that are in

1314
02:04:47,760 --> 02:04:51,239
question. Those are the things that
are assumed when we have all of these

1315
02:04:51,359 --> 02:04:57,760
various distinctions that the Scholastics put upon
God. They're all still based on analogical

1316
02:04:57,840 --> 02:05:00,760
predication. But how do we know
that analogical predication holes and that it is

1317
02:05:00,840 --> 02:05:03,520
the case. Maybe it is,
but they always want this to just assume

1318
02:05:03,560 --> 02:05:08,199
it. I don't know. Those
that sounded like a bunch of words salad

1319
02:05:08,239 --> 02:05:13,359
demand. All right, Okay,
here we go. What is known in

1320
02:05:13,439 --> 02:05:15,319
itself versus what is known to us? Like that kind of stuff. So

1321
02:05:16,920 --> 02:05:24,199
look, a quaintness gets something right
and does acknowledge that our ability to reason

1322
02:05:24,319 --> 02:05:33,880
and obtain truth depends on God as
But the problem is that and this will

1323
02:05:33,960 --> 02:05:40,600
end up being viciously circular, and
you create an autonomous epistemology that can't do

1324
02:05:40,760 --> 02:05:46,399
the work, but the preconditions for
intelligibility don't need to be placed in God.

1325
02:05:48,359 --> 02:05:55,319
In other words, you can He
has this. Basically, what's better

1326
02:05:55,439 --> 02:06:02,039
known by nature is the cause,
and what's better known to us is the

1327
02:06:02,159 --> 02:06:09,520
effects. So the idea is that
in the natural order of things of our

1328
02:06:09,640 --> 02:06:14,239
inquiry, it's to start from things
that are more noble to us. So

1329
02:06:14,319 --> 02:06:16,760
we start with sense, perception,
and all this different stuff, and then

1330
02:06:16,800 --> 02:06:25,880
we proceed towards the things that Aristotle
and acquaintance car clear in of themselves,

1331
02:06:26,239 --> 02:06:30,680
like being God, et cetera.
So temporarily speaking, the effects are then

1332
02:06:30,760 --> 02:06:33,960
first and then the cause. But
an acquaintance realizes, but in the real

1333
02:06:34,079 --> 02:06:38,279
order existence, it's the cause.
It's first. Now, the problem with

1334
02:06:38,479 --> 02:06:44,920
this is that's just a it's a
metaphysical statement, right, It ignores the

1335
02:06:45,119 --> 02:06:58,720
epistemological issues here that let me put
it this way, it's putting your metaphysical

1336
02:06:59,239 --> 02:07:05,000
horse before the epistemological card. And
so if so, that was a metaphysical

1337
02:07:05,039 --> 02:07:10,960
description about causality the way the world
is, and you know, causes,

1338
02:07:11,039 --> 02:07:17,800
relate effects, et cetera, and
our metaphysics determines that we can know and

1339
02:07:17,920 --> 02:07:25,479
how we can know. But the
problem is I have to know which metaphysics

1340
02:07:25,640 --> 02:07:30,840
is correct. So like the your
friends that you were, Militant Thomas that

1341
02:07:30,960 --> 02:07:34,199
you're you're arguing with, all they're
doing is telling a story. In one

1342
02:07:34,279 --> 02:07:40,039
sense, they're just giving you a
metaphysical story. But giving a metaphysical story

1343
02:07:40,199 --> 02:07:43,600
is not an argument, right,
So when we're asking an argument, we're

1344
02:07:43,640 --> 02:07:48,199
in the epistemological category. And the
problem is you can't do what a Quaintas

1345
02:07:49,199 --> 02:07:55,439
and Militant Thomas and these various people
are doing. You can't put your metaphysical

1346
02:07:55,600 --> 02:08:00,600
horse before the epistemological cards. So
if the metaphysics the correct view right,

1347
02:08:01,359 --> 02:08:05,079
determines what and how you can know, but then I have to know prior

1348
02:08:05,199 --> 02:08:11,119
to my metaphysics, so I know
what my metaphys what the correct metaphysics is,

1349
02:08:11,720 --> 02:08:18,439
right. This is a problem if
you start off with this kind of

1350
02:08:18,560 --> 02:08:22,640
natural theology that I can build a
system. Yeah, I can build a

1351
02:08:22,800 --> 02:08:28,720
system autonomous from a presupposition and the
only standard that could actually do the work

1352
02:08:30,000 --> 02:08:33,079
as far as just location God,
And then I'll get up to God,

1353
02:08:33,720 --> 02:08:37,399
and then I'll retrospective and be like, well, but you know, after

1354
02:08:37,439 --> 02:08:39,640
I figured it all out, and
proven God, then I can say,

1355
02:08:39,720 --> 02:08:43,720
well, of course he's the better
known by nature and the cause of all

1356
02:08:43,760 --> 02:08:52,479
this. But the whole problem is
you started your enterprise on shaky epistemological grounds,

1357
02:08:54,520 --> 02:09:01,119
no epistemological grounds, We have no
idea if that's actually correct, and

1358
02:09:01,319 --> 02:09:05,319
so what ends up happening is something
vicious circular. We'll just grant to me

1359
02:09:07,159 --> 02:09:11,640
that it's actually true without me having
to justify it, because the justifications of

1360
02:09:11,760 --> 02:09:16,039
a ladder category, which is going
to be dependent circular right on on my

1361
02:09:16,199 --> 02:09:20,079
metaphysics, so that I can actually
just my my metaphysics and epistemology. Do

1362
02:09:20,159 --> 02:09:24,760
you see the problem? Absolutely?
Yeah, every Tomas is going to be

1363
02:09:26,279 --> 02:09:33,239
demanding that we just grant him in
that system, and they're not. They're

1364
02:09:33,279 --> 02:09:37,560
not interested in epistemology. I mean, if we go into epistemology, they're

1365
02:09:37,600 --> 02:09:41,800
gonna fold when it comes to questions
of justification, self evidence, classical foundationalism

1366
02:09:41,840 --> 02:09:46,800
and all that. And also,
how do I know that that's even right?

1367
02:09:46,079 --> 02:09:50,159
What's better normal by nature versus what's
exactly So this Aristotelian principle right,

1368
02:09:50,399 --> 02:09:54,359
or you know, the paripotatic axiom, how do we know that the pariptatic

1369
02:09:54,399 --> 02:10:01,079
axiom is actually the justified starting point. Yeah, because I can tell story,

1370
02:10:01,119 --> 02:10:03,159
a metaphysical story. Yeah, that's
what they'll do. They say,

1371
02:10:03,159 --> 02:10:05,800
well, here's a grand metaphysical story. So it's to see if that's a

1372
02:10:05,880 --> 02:10:09,600
proof. Yeah, and if you
get me on something, I'll just throw

1373
02:10:09,640 --> 02:10:13,720
on an ad hoc rescue and to
add another distinction on there to make the

1374
02:10:13,800 --> 02:10:18,359
story even more Colm, that's why
it's sorcery. Right, It's just it's

1375
02:10:18,439 --> 02:10:20,439
all an illusion, right, It's
just I'm gonna make it more and more

1376
02:10:20,560 --> 02:10:26,479
complicated and look, to be fair, all all of the hope philosophers do

1377
02:10:26,600 --> 02:10:30,560
this, right, you start getting
to the heart of the matter, and

1378
02:10:30,640 --> 02:10:31,920
what do they do. They make
it more and more complicated, so you

1379
02:10:33,039 --> 02:10:37,960
can't actually see that it's a con. Yeah, that's why I kept saying

1380
02:10:39,079 --> 02:10:41,960
that, really, all you're doing
is just introducing more, introducing more and

1381
02:10:43,000 --> 02:10:48,359
more distinctions without dressing an objection.
It's like, and the reality Roman Catholicism

1382
02:10:48,479 --> 02:10:54,439
is not this stuff, right.
The reality Roman Catholicism is Francis and Abu

1383
02:10:54,520 --> 02:10:58,319
Dhabi faith Center with the Muslims and
Jews. Right, that's the reality.

1384
02:10:58,399 --> 02:11:03,800
It's not this stuff, but it's
good to point out that this natural theology

1385
02:11:05,920 --> 02:11:11,319
no point ten naturally leads, right, it's the natural outworking of Yeah,

1386
02:11:11,359 --> 02:11:20,239
absolutely no explicitly is basing its perennialist
approach to the world. Religions all having

1387
02:11:20,279 --> 02:11:24,880
the same generic God on the tomistic
idea of natural theology that we and natural

1388
02:11:24,880 --> 02:11:28,720
theology is defined in fit us at
ratio by John Paul the Second, as

1389
02:11:28,760 --> 02:11:35,159
Father Deacon points out, as philosophizing
about God apart from divine revelation. Right,

1390
02:11:37,760 --> 02:11:41,239
so it's autonomous, which is absurd, And this is an easy way

1391
02:11:41,319 --> 02:11:48,439
to fleck. I was speaking to
a ten year old a transidental organ what

1392
02:11:48,720 --> 02:11:56,760
do you possibly think could be independent
or a higher standard than God? They

1393
02:11:56,840 --> 02:12:00,960
say nothing. That's like, then
you've got the transidental argument. That's it.

1394
02:12:03,760 --> 02:12:13,920
There is no independent starting point and
there's no epistemic standard that's higher than

1395
02:12:13,000 --> 02:12:18,920
God that you prove God by.
So you don't prove God. God is

1396
02:12:18,960 --> 02:12:22,720
that by which you prove everything else. So it's a fundamental category mistake,

1397
02:12:24,039 --> 02:12:28,199
right to think that, oh,
well, I'm going to prove God.

1398
02:12:28,239 --> 02:12:31,439
It's like, no, no,
there has to be something. And everybody

1399
02:12:31,720 --> 02:12:39,560
realizes this, you know, in
both in philosophy and logic, there has

1400
02:12:39,640 --> 02:12:46,000
to be something that's not proven but
that's necessary, and is that by which

1401
02:12:46,119 --> 02:12:52,840
proves everything else? And that's pretty
straightway forward with stating the transitional argument.

1402
02:12:54,520 --> 02:12:58,600
What would you say, what specifically
could you elucidate that point you were making

1403
02:12:58,640 --> 02:13:01,720
about which is better known in itself
versus that which is known by us?

1404
02:13:03,359 --> 02:13:07,840
And you started that paper off that
you wrote by by that quoting that from

1405
02:13:07,840 --> 02:13:11,760
Aristotle, and how we're just as
assumed that that's the case. Right,

1406
02:13:11,800 --> 02:13:13,239
But it is that sort of begging
the question, maybe it is the case,

1407
02:13:13,319 --> 02:13:16,520
but why are we supposed to think
that it is the case? Yeah,

1408
02:13:16,640 --> 02:13:22,640
that's well, that's the question.
Why should we Why should we think

1409
02:13:22,720 --> 02:13:31,319
that that's the case. So,
because I've always thought that it's the principle

1410
02:13:31,359 --> 02:13:37,439
of sufficient reason, that every effect
has a cause that I can even I

1411
02:13:37,520 --> 02:13:41,439
mean, look at hume, what
human brings up? I don't even know

1412
02:13:41,640 --> 02:13:46,399
cause and effect? How is that
even possible from sense experience? Oh,

1413
02:13:46,479 --> 02:13:52,359
you just gotta assume this metaphysical,
this whole metaphysical story again, that you

1414
02:13:52,640 --> 02:13:58,560
start from the effects which are clear
to you. So that would be something

1415
02:13:58,640 --> 02:14:05,800
in the astemological category, but in
the real order of things. Ontologically speaking,

1416
02:14:05,000 --> 02:14:11,119
it's the cause that's farther away,
as far as known, But the

1417
02:14:11,199 --> 02:14:16,720
real order of things, that's what's
most real. And so you've always got

1418
02:14:16,800 --> 02:14:22,239
to perceive in this way. But
think about how many think about how many

1419
02:14:22,439 --> 02:14:28,239
presuppositions are loaded into that ye,
about the nature of sensation, about the

1420
02:14:28,319 --> 02:14:37,199
way that we know cause and effect, and furthermore, somehow I'm actually another

1421
02:14:37,239 --> 02:14:43,479
way that it's viciously circular. I
know, what's the principle what's better known

1422
02:14:43,520 --> 02:14:48,760
by us versus what's better known by
nature? By what the principle of what's

1423
02:14:48,800 --> 02:14:52,319
better known by us versus what's better
known by nature? Do you see what

1424
02:14:52,359 --> 02:15:01,640
I mean? Yeah, So that's
a metaphysical and epistemological story that if I

1425
02:15:01,880 --> 02:15:05,760
ask them, how do I know
that that's true? What are they going

1426
02:15:05,800 --> 02:15:11,000
to say? Because the metaphysical picture
is true, that's how we know.

1427
02:15:11,279 --> 02:15:13,840
But that's what's in question, you
see. Yeah, And that's a you

1428
02:15:13,880 --> 02:15:16,960
know, great epistemic critique. What's
the name of your paper? Is it

1429
02:15:18,039 --> 02:15:22,159
still in the discord? I can
put it in the chat too? Is

1430
02:15:22,560 --> 02:15:28,960
the theory of knowledge? Yeah?
Epistemological apolitic medics, the methods of the

1431
02:15:28,000 --> 02:15:31,600
trip flaws. Let me put this
in your YouTube chat right there, and

1432
02:15:31,920 --> 02:15:37,479
in regard to the distinctions in God
and the scholastic distinctions, it's in there.

1433
02:15:37,600 --> 02:15:41,960
Yeah, oh thanks, so everybody. Then the chat there is the

1434
02:15:41,399 --> 02:15:46,119
Patristic faith linked to that paper that
father Deacon wrote, kind of illustrating what

1435
02:15:46,199 --> 02:15:50,039
he was critiquing about that which is
better known by us versus what is known

1436
02:15:50,079 --> 02:15:52,880
in itself that how do we know
that that self evident principle is actually self

1437
02:15:52,920 --> 02:15:56,000
evident? Right? Well, the
tell mystic aristating position, just like the

1438
02:15:56,039 --> 02:15:58,399
peripatetic axiom, says, well,
it just has to be that way.

1439
02:16:00,279 --> 02:16:03,800
And by the way, we can
go into why rhetorsion doesn't actually get you

1440
02:16:03,880 --> 02:16:07,039
to justification later on. We've done
that many times. Go back to that.

1441
02:16:07,079 --> 02:16:09,880
I did a whole talk on the
Russmannion paper which is about that.

1442
02:16:11,880 --> 02:16:15,800
Let's read the super chats. I
don't know, I mean, I gave

1443
02:16:15,880 --> 02:16:18,840
this out link out to like countless
Roman Catholics. I don't know where they're

1444
02:16:18,840 --> 02:16:22,880
at. Blake, do you want
to say something our black staff? Did

1445
02:16:22,920 --> 02:16:26,680
you want to say something? Oh? Yeah, yeah, can you hear

1446
02:16:26,760 --> 02:16:31,279
me? Yeah? Yeah, okay. I kind of had two things,

1447
02:16:31,319 --> 02:16:33,840
but One of the things that I'll
bring up first is, uh, you

1448
02:16:33,920 --> 02:16:37,799
know about Tomasm. I've read like
a bit of the Suma, you know,

1449
02:16:37,879 --> 02:16:43,639
and one thing that I find really
confusing is he seems to say that

1450
02:16:43,799 --> 02:16:50,600
the relations of opposition are themselves the
essence correct, So how do you distinguish

1451
02:16:50,760 --> 02:16:54,280
between the persons anymore at that point? Or is this just him being inconsistent.

1452
02:16:54,840 --> 02:16:58,000
That's an inconsistently right, because he'll
he'll make statements like that all the

1453
02:16:58,079 --> 02:17:01,799
time that for the worth of all
we think are problematic Yaska tements. They'll

1454
02:17:01,840 --> 02:17:05,479
just say, well, but elsewhere
he says this, so yeah, yeah.

1455
02:17:07,399 --> 02:17:09,879
And so the other thing that I
wanted to bring up is something that

1456
02:17:09,959 --> 02:17:16,200
I think gets overlooked by Roman Catholics
when trying to understand the Orthodox position.

1457
02:17:16,840 --> 02:17:20,920
And I noticed this fanatic Thomas Dude
posted this on Twitter earlier, a screenshot

1458
02:17:22,120 --> 02:17:28,319
of a quote from Saint John Damascus
Orthodox faithbook one about about generation being an

1459
02:17:28,319 --> 02:17:33,319
act, about it well, about
it being from the from the essence.

1460
02:17:33,719 --> 02:17:37,000
Yeah, this is fundamental mistake.
It's the essence of the father, right,

1461
02:17:37,040 --> 02:17:41,360
It's not it's not the essence quite
essence, because in the sun would

1462
02:17:41,360 --> 02:17:45,040
generate himself. Yeah, and I
mean in context, if you go read

1463
02:17:45,120 --> 02:17:48,239
it, really, what he's getting
at is that the sun and the spirit

1464
02:17:48,319 --> 02:17:52,200
are not a product of the will
right there, naturally coming from this.

1465
02:17:52,360 --> 02:17:58,520
It's a natural generation, not a
you know, the Eunomies position is that

1466
02:17:58,680 --> 02:18:01,959
the sun is at work of will
and energy. Yeah, and so what

1467
02:18:03,079 --> 02:18:05,159
I wanted to ask you though,
and this may kind of be off topics,

1468
02:18:05,159 --> 02:18:07,079
so you don't want to get into
it, that's fine, But I'm

1469
02:18:07,079 --> 02:18:09,239
gonna think I got another podcastle I
go to do in a minute, gog

1470
02:18:09,239 --> 02:18:13,479
ahead, Yeah, Like, is
there a sense in which we would say

1471
02:18:13,600 --> 02:18:18,639
that the essence is sort of derivative
of the father? Yeah, that's actually

1472
02:18:18,639 --> 02:18:22,799
an the original nice scene Creed and
it's an Athanasius that the son derives his

1473
02:18:24,520 --> 02:18:28,200
entire being, his existence is hypostasis
and everything from the Father. Yeah.

1474
02:18:28,239 --> 02:18:31,600
No, but I'm talking about the
essence itself. It seems to me that,

1475
02:18:31,760 --> 02:18:35,559
like, because the Father just is
the way that he is, that

1476
02:18:35,760 --> 02:18:39,639
kind of defines the way that the
essence is. Would that be incorrect or

1477
02:18:41,159 --> 02:18:43,760
what do you mean? How does
the father being what he is, define

1478
02:18:43,799 --> 02:18:46,639
what the essence is? Because there's
no ontological priority, right, there's so

1479
02:18:48,479 --> 02:18:50,879
like in my mind, it seems
that like the Father just is the way

1480
02:18:50,959 --> 02:18:54,719
that he is, and he is
God and he is the divine one who

1481
02:18:54,879 --> 02:18:58,879
has the divine essence that he then
communicates to the son and the spirit.

1482
02:19:00,040 --> 02:19:03,520
M So it seems to me and
and so like I see, Like that's

1483
02:19:03,559 --> 02:19:07,600
why I was saying, I'm not
sure about the term it being derivative of

1484
02:19:07,680 --> 02:19:13,639
because I don't want to bring in
contingency per se, you know. But

1485
02:19:13,879 --> 02:19:15,799
no, I think that I don't
see why that would be a term.

1486
02:19:15,840 --> 02:19:20,360
It's not a temporal derivation. It's
an eternal derivation. Yeah, I mean,

1487
02:19:20,520 --> 02:19:22,239
Jesus says that everything that he has
he has from the Father, so

1488
02:19:22,399 --> 02:19:30,479
from signifies derivation. Yeah, But
I'm talking more about like because they tend

1489
02:19:30,600 --> 02:19:35,079
to start with the essence and then
attribute all this stuff to the persons based

1490
02:19:35,159 --> 02:19:39,399
on the essence, right, It's
like I think that they get confused about

1491
02:19:39,440 --> 02:19:43,280
the fact that the Father is like
self determinant in all of his properties and

1492
02:19:43,399 --> 02:19:50,399
everything, right yeah, because they
don't start with the monarchia of of the

1493
02:19:50,520 --> 02:19:54,440
person of the Father, right.
Yeah. I just think that that's something

1494
02:19:54,559 --> 02:20:00,159
that they kind of really miss,
is that like the Essence isn't defining the

1495
02:20:00,200 --> 02:20:05,959
divine persons are No. Essence only
exists in hypostatically in the persons that have

1496
02:20:05,120 --> 02:20:09,760
it, and so person's first,
not essence. Yeah, So I just

1497
02:20:09,799 --> 02:20:11,000
wanted to kind of like run this
by you a little bit because it's something

1498
02:20:11,040 --> 02:20:15,159
I've been thinking about and make sure
I had it kind of like framed right

1499
02:20:15,200 --> 02:20:18,760
in my head. But that's all
I got, all right, man,

1500
02:20:18,840 --> 02:20:22,879
Thank you great questions and points.
I got a couple of super chats,

1501
02:20:22,920 --> 02:20:26,040
and I gotta go run beyond somebody's
podcast, So they're gonna be mad if

1502
02:20:26,040 --> 02:20:30,760
I don't get over there, based
and chase ten dollars? Is there salvation

1503
02:20:30,840 --> 02:20:35,000
in the Roman Caloic Church? The
Roman Catholic Church can't save you. But

1504
02:20:35,200 --> 02:20:37,840
if Christ has a way by which
he can unite people to his mystical body,

1505
02:20:39,520 --> 02:20:41,639
he can certainly do that like the
thief on the cross. But the

1506
02:20:41,680 --> 02:20:45,200
normandid means by which people are saved
is through coming into the Orthodox Church.

1507
02:20:45,280 --> 02:20:48,079
Thory and pie infusion, elector ten
dollars, what's happening? Dire exposed cave

1508
02:20:48,159 --> 02:20:52,879
to totally generousy. Oh he likes
my NPC comedy video. Thank you,

1509
02:20:54,000 --> 02:21:00,440
bon Jovi, nineteen twelve forty dollars
is nominalism? Is this a nominalistic viewpoint?

1510
02:21:01,639 --> 02:21:05,959
Tomasm? I mean tomasm is not
identical to nominalism because Acquintus has a

1511
02:21:07,040 --> 02:21:11,559
form of realism. But many Thomas
have argued that some of Thomas's positions,

1512
02:21:11,719 --> 02:21:18,639
especially about universals, do anticipate later
nominalist developments. So it gets really precise,

1513
02:21:18,799 --> 02:21:22,959
but it kind of depends on what
Thomas's status for universals is, and

1514
02:21:24,000 --> 02:21:28,840
a lot of there's Tomastic debates amongst
Thomas that's exactly what his position of universals

1515
02:21:28,959 --> 02:21:33,559
is. But to me he seems
to be more leaning nominalistic in my reading

1516
02:21:33,600 --> 02:21:39,040
of Aquinas Cataclysm ten seventy three.
Do the debate review with Orthodox Shahada and

1517
02:21:39,239 --> 02:21:41,959
also the Doctor Branson stream. Yeah, Doctor Branson and I are going to

1518
02:21:43,000 --> 02:21:46,600
be doing a show very soon and
we'll get into the monarchy of the Father

1519
02:21:46,719 --> 02:21:50,079
more in depth with him, and
I think orthdox Shad and I are doing

1520
02:21:50,200 --> 02:21:54,479
a debate review. It's just we're
trying to get it to where we can

1521
02:21:54,520 --> 02:21:56,239
all do at the same time.
Brand Will fifty dollars day, I love

1522
02:21:56,280 --> 02:22:01,440
your stuff. How do we bring
Orthodox people from the furry world. I

1523
02:22:01,520 --> 02:22:05,280
mean, I mean, well,
they're gonna have to just give up furry

1524
02:22:05,319 --> 02:22:11,639
stuff first. So I don't have
any insights on furry outreach. I don't

1525
02:22:11,639 --> 02:22:16,280
have the furry outreach program. So
I just think that's a weird, odd

1526
02:22:16,399 --> 02:22:20,719
community. It's creepy. So they're
gonna have to just give up that stuff

1527
02:22:22,120 --> 02:22:24,280
they need. Jesus. I was
wanting to know how you go about it,

1528
02:22:24,280 --> 02:22:26,719
if you have any ideas, I
guess be nice to them and tell

1529
02:22:26,799 --> 02:22:31,280
them to come to church and then
tell them to throw away their cat costumes.

1530
02:22:31,520 --> 02:22:35,239
Do you have twenty dollars? Think
everythingalysis? Can you upload the TikTok

1531
02:22:35,319 --> 02:22:43,799
debate? It's on my rock fan
truth Seeker twelve ten dollars? Tell us

1532
02:22:43,840 --> 02:22:50,520
believe that person in nature are identical
to essence. Do you hold this position?

1533
02:22:50,239 --> 02:22:56,120
Well, person in nature exists in
the mode of the person has it's

1534
02:22:56,200 --> 02:23:00,600
in iposthtize, But nature and person
are not identical in a strict sense.

1535
02:23:00,680 --> 02:23:03,840
That would be modalism. Why don't
you argue this more often? We argue

1536
02:23:03,879 --> 02:23:09,200
all the time. I've probably got
thirty podcasts that argue about the nature person

1537
02:23:09,280 --> 02:23:13,600
distinction. You typically talk about the
relation between the attributes and the essence,

1538
02:23:13,760 --> 02:23:18,120
but not persons and essence, because
Thomas will just say that Thomas believes in

1539
02:23:18,280 --> 02:23:24,040
a major, real distinction between the
persons. But it's true that between nature

1540
02:23:24,079 --> 02:23:37,200
and essence. Thomas consistently says that
what I lost people are talking about nonsense.

1541
02:23:39,200 --> 02:23:43,479
Yeah, I mean so a Quantas
has these statements, and you saw

1542
02:23:43,559 --> 02:23:46,399
Ybara repeat it like a couple of
years ago, right, that nature and

1543
02:23:46,520 --> 02:23:50,040
person are identical. Yeah, maybe
I need to focus on that more.

1544
02:23:50,159 --> 02:23:54,120
King, I tell a five dollars. Prime supports the fanatic Thomas on Twitter.

1545
02:23:54,239 --> 02:23:58,360
Of course he does. I mean
he argues all these Roman Catholic positions.

1546
02:23:58,559 --> 02:24:03,840
He argued is that we believe in
and Selmian and penal substitution, Augustinian

1547
02:24:03,920 --> 02:24:09,440
stuff, and then I called him
out on that. So of course he's

1548
02:24:09,440 --> 02:24:11,559
going to agree with anybody who goes
against me. So I mean, if

1549
02:24:11,920 --> 02:24:16,440
Prime wants to go off into Roman
Catholicism, I mean that's the direction he's

1550
02:24:16,440 --> 02:24:20,639
head it. In Aasgar one forty
four is to incarnate a divine action,

1551
02:24:20,920 --> 02:24:24,959
correct, So what does this imply
for identity thesis and an eternal incarnation or

1552
02:24:26,000 --> 02:24:28,959
Patripassianism. Yeah, if God's an
absolutely simple essence, then it should be

1553
02:24:28,000 --> 02:24:31,600
the incarnate. It should be the
Divine Essence that incarnated. If person in

1554
02:24:31,719 --> 02:24:37,000
nature are absolutely identical, then uh
yeah, it would seem to follow the

1555
02:24:37,120 --> 02:24:39,399
Divine Essence became incarnate. But it's
not the Divine Essence, it's the Divine's

1556
02:24:39,399 --> 02:24:43,399
son who Again they all the whole
problem is that their order of theology is

1557
02:24:43,440 --> 02:24:48,319
wrong. They start with the Divine
Essence, they start with a absolutely simple

1558
02:24:48,360 --> 02:24:50,799
monad. They don't begin with the
person of the Father. And so go

1559
02:24:52,000 --> 02:24:56,239
watch doctor Bill Branson's lectures. It
will cure your Tomism. And I think

1560
02:24:56,319 --> 02:24:58,959
that's all the super chats heading over
to chalk dot com us the promo code J fifty