WEBVTT 1 00:00:29.399 --> 00:00:32.840 So welcome to this week's edition of The Path Went Chili. So On. 2 00:00:32.880 --> 00:00:36.159 We're going to be co hosted by Jewels and I because Ashley is away this 3 00:00:36.200 --> 00:00:39.840 week, so we're gonna go back to our format where I tell Jewels about 4 00:00:39.840 --> 00:00:43.159 a case that I'm very familiar with and she's going to react to it and 5 00:00:43.200 --> 00:00:48.320 we'll discuss it. And I decided to do the nineteen eighty six disappearance of 6 00:00:48.399 --> 00:00:52.719 nine year old Antonette Kadito, which took place in the small town of Gallup, 7 00:00:52.759 --> 00:00:56.240 New Mexico. This is a very famous case. It was on Unsaw 8 00:00:56.359 --> 00:00:59.640 Mysteries. I covered it on The Trail Went Cold about two years ago, 9 00:01:00.119 --> 00:01:04.000 but I wanted to revisit it because last week the Trace Evidence podcast released a 10 00:01:04.000 --> 00:01:08.879 new update episode revealing a lot of new information which had never been made public 11 00:01:08.959 --> 00:01:12.760 before. And the reason that this has come out now is because of a 12 00:01:12.799 --> 00:01:19.000 YouTube series that just came out called Disappeared in Darkness, which is hosted by 13 00:01:19.000 --> 00:01:23.000 a former journalist named Crystal Gutierrez. She was able to obtain some files from 14 00:01:23.000 --> 00:01:27.640 an FBI investigation from the mid nineteen nineties and there's a lot of new information 15 00:01:27.719 --> 00:01:32.159 in there that has never been made public before and is making me look at 16 00:01:32.200 --> 00:01:34.400 the case in a different light. So that's why I wanted to revisit it 17 00:01:34.439 --> 00:01:38.439 and have an all new discussion about it. And there will be a lot 18 00:01:38.480 --> 00:01:42.159 to talk about jewels. Are you familiar with this case? You know? 19 00:01:42.239 --> 00:01:47.079 I think I heard a podcast on this case maybe a year or two ago, 20 00:01:47.799 --> 00:01:51.719 enough so that when you sent me the audio to listen to to familiarize 21 00:01:51.719 --> 00:01:55.120 myself with it for when we discussed it later on, I was like, 22 00:01:55.159 --> 00:01:57.799 oh, yeah, I definitely remember this, but the details are a little 23 00:01:57.799 --> 00:02:01.239 bit murky, and I purpose fully didn't look it up or look into any 24 00:02:01.280 --> 00:02:04.599 of it. I wanted it all to be fresh, and I wanted to 25 00:02:04.640 --> 00:02:09.560 be surprised and have like genuine reactions for the listeners. Okay, so yeah, 26 00:02:09.560 --> 00:02:13.719 I'll give you a lot of the details, and then we'll discuss certain 27 00:02:13.759 --> 00:02:16.560 aspects of the case. And I'm going to start off by telling you the 28 00:02:16.639 --> 00:02:21.439 official narrative of the case, which has been told for over thirty years now. 29 00:02:22.039 --> 00:02:23.479 It's going to turn out that a lot of the stuff that I'm sharing 30 00:02:23.520 --> 00:02:27.879 with you may have turned out to be false. But when we finished talking 31 00:02:27.919 --> 00:02:30.599 about the known facts of the case, that's when I'm going to reveal the 32 00:02:30.680 --> 00:02:35.280 new information and talk about how it takes the case in a totally different direction. 33 00:02:36.199 --> 00:02:38.120 So we started in nineteen eighty six in the town of Gallup, New 34 00:02:38.159 --> 00:02:44.000 Mexico, and our victim is nine year old Antonett Kayodeto, who was originally 35 00:02:44.039 --> 00:02:46.800 born on Christmas Day in nineteen seventy six, so she would be nine years 36 00:02:46.800 --> 00:02:52.400 old at this point. She's a biracial child because her father, Larry Astrado, 37 00:02:52.560 --> 00:02:55.680 was Hispanic and her mother, Penny Kayodeto, belonged to the Navajo nation. 38 00:02:57.240 --> 00:03:00.759 But Penny and Larry would wind up separating, and then Penny would go 39 00:03:00.759 --> 00:03:04.039 on to have two more daughters with another man. And at this point, 40 00:03:04.680 --> 00:03:07.120 Sadie, the second daughter, is seven years old and the youngest daughter, 41 00:03:07.159 --> 00:03:13.159 Wendy, is five years old. I believe Penny was now raising her children 42 00:03:13.199 --> 00:03:16.039 as a single mother, and even though Antonette is only nine years old at 43 00:03:16.039 --> 00:03:20.400 this point, she is pretty much considered to be the mother figure in this 44 00:03:20.479 --> 00:03:23.879 family. She is considered to be very mature for her age and helps a 45 00:03:23.919 --> 00:03:27.800 lot around the house trying to take care of her younger sisters. And as 46 00:03:27.800 --> 00:03:30.599 we're going to talk about, Penny did not have the best reputation as the 47 00:03:30.680 --> 00:03:35.439 most responsible parent. She was known for going out a lot and partying, 48 00:03:35.800 --> 00:03:38.759 so Antonette pretty much had to take the reins to ensure that Sadie and Wendy 49 00:03:38.840 --> 00:03:44.120 were well taken care of. I think we see this dynamics so often with 50 00:03:44.240 --> 00:03:49.280 single parent household, not necessarily that the parent is like an absent parent, 51 00:03:49.439 --> 00:03:53.080 or that they've got a substance use disorder or anything like that, but just 52 00:03:53.199 --> 00:03:57.280 that they're spread really, really thin across many different things. They're trying to 53 00:03:57.319 --> 00:04:00.560 make a living, and then trying to be a mother to three daughters is 54 00:04:00.599 --> 00:04:05.639 a huge endeavor, and I'm sure in retrospect, Penny looked back and was 55 00:04:05.680 --> 00:04:09.000 like, of course, there were things that I could have done to be 56 00:04:09.080 --> 00:04:13.759 a better mother, and maybe the pressure shouldn't have been on Antonette to be 57 00:04:13.879 --> 00:04:17.240 that mother figure. But we often see the eldest child, particularly if it 58 00:04:17.360 --> 00:04:21.879 is a female child, take on that role of mother to their younger siblings 59 00:04:23.160 --> 00:04:27.920 when the mother isn't present for a variety of reasons, whether they'd be that 60 00:04:28.000 --> 00:04:31.720 they're at work or either with a boyfriend, or they're abusing drugs or alcohol. 61 00:04:32.079 --> 00:04:36.160 So it is a huge amount of responsibility to put on a young child 62 00:04:36.959 --> 00:04:41.319 exactly. It really does not sound like Antonette had much of a childhood at 63 00:04:41.360 --> 00:04:45.319 all. And this was a very low income housing area. The family did 64 00:04:45.360 --> 00:04:47.800 not have a lot of money, so Penny was stretched thin and had to 65 00:04:47.839 --> 00:04:51.120 rely on Antonette a lot. And as we're going to talk about later on, 66 00:04:51.120 --> 00:04:55.319 one of the theories that would come up is that perhaps Penny decided that 67 00:04:55.399 --> 00:04:58.959 having three kids was too much of a burden, and that's why she may 68 00:04:59.000 --> 00:05:02.720 have decided to get of Antonette. But the whole thing began on the morning 69 00:05:02.720 --> 00:05:06.160 of April the six, nineteen eighty six, which was a Sunday, and 70 00:05:06.480 --> 00:05:11.279 all the children woke up at seven am in order to go to Bible school, 71 00:05:11.879 --> 00:05:15.240 and right from the outset you see some alarm bells with the way of 72 00:05:15.279 --> 00:05:18.240 this story unfolded because the previous evening, Penny had gone out to a bar 73 00:05:18.800 --> 00:05:23.360 with some friends and left her children in the company of a babysitter until she 74 00:05:23.519 --> 00:05:28.000 arrived home at around midnight, and that in itself is an unusual But the 75 00:05:28.079 --> 00:05:30.279 story, which has been shared for a long time is that after Penny sent 76 00:05:30.439 --> 00:05:35.279 the baby sit her home, she let the children stay up very late playing 77 00:05:35.279 --> 00:05:39.920 with her and they apparently did not go to bed until around three am. 78 00:05:39.959 --> 00:05:44.879 And that's very unusual for children who were aged nine, seven and five to 79 00:05:45.199 --> 00:05:47.399 go to bed at three am and then be up four hours later in order 80 00:05:47.439 --> 00:05:51.319 to go to a Bible school. And even though the house had four bedrooms, 81 00:05:51.319 --> 00:05:56.079 it was apparently common practice for all three daughters to sleep in the same 82 00:05:56.120 --> 00:05:59.519 bedroom with Penny, and her story has always been that they went to sleep 83 00:05:59.519 --> 00:06:02.519 shortly four three am, but when she woke up at seven am, Antonette 84 00:06:02.600 --> 00:06:06.720 was gone. I mean, there are those types of families that do all 85 00:06:06.800 --> 00:06:11.560 like to sleep in like a communal type of a situation, all in one 86 00:06:11.680 --> 00:06:15.759 bedroom. But if you have a house this large, you would think that 87 00:06:16.360 --> 00:06:21.120 people the children would be sleeping in like a children's bedroom, you know, 88 00:06:21.160 --> 00:06:24.800 like all the girls would be in there. They're kind of of that age 89 00:06:24.839 --> 00:06:30.040 where you may want a little bit of independence rather than sleeping in a room 90 00:06:30.040 --> 00:06:33.240 with your mother. And that's not to judge a situation in which parents choose 91 00:06:33.319 --> 00:06:38.639 to do that. I mean, it is extremely atypical, but it does 92 00:06:38.680 --> 00:06:42.759 work for some families. But what I do find really strange here, and 93 00:06:42.839 --> 00:06:46.120 I honestly call bs on it, it just does not sound plausible, is 94 00:06:46.160 --> 00:06:49.800 that after the babysitter goes home, you let the children stay up until three 95 00:06:49.879 --> 00:06:54.480 am, Like you wouldn't even do that with like a sixteen year old. 96 00:06:54.800 --> 00:06:57.600 You mean, maybe you let a sixteen year old stay up with their friends 97 00:06:57.600 --> 00:07:00.480 and watch movies until they pass out, but you're not going to be like, 98 00:07:00.560 --> 00:07:02.639 hey, you can stay up with me until three. It just doesn't 99 00:07:02.680 --> 00:07:08.000 sound like it's grounded in reality exactly. And as we're going to find out 100 00:07:08.040 --> 00:07:11.879 later on, at least one of the daughters would later tell a story which 101 00:07:11.879 --> 00:07:14.639 says that that wasn't true at all, that this was even though this was 102 00:07:14.680 --> 00:07:17.480 a story that Penny told the police, it's really untruthful. And it's like 103 00:07:17.920 --> 00:07:21.120 it's one of those things where you're reading about the case and none of the 104 00:07:21.160 --> 00:07:25.720 law enforcement people are treating it as particularly unusual, but you're like, did 105 00:07:25.720 --> 00:07:28.759 I hear that right? Did these girls really stay up till three am? 106 00:07:28.839 --> 00:07:30.519 Because I know when I was at age, I was not staying up that 107 00:07:30.600 --> 00:07:35.040 later, particularly when I had to be up early the following morning. Oh 108 00:07:35.079 --> 00:07:38.839 my gosh, I remember sitting on the top of the stairs. And my 109 00:07:38.839 --> 00:07:41.959 parents got divorced when I was really young, like maybe when I was four. 110 00:07:42.000 --> 00:07:46.000 They were divorced, separated when I was three, and I remember when 111 00:07:46.720 --> 00:07:50.000 my mom was like dating this guy and I wanted to stay up later and 112 00:07:50.079 --> 00:07:53.519 she'd be like, no, you got to go to bed. And I 113 00:07:53.560 --> 00:07:57.279 remember sitting at the top of the stairs. And then later when my mom 114 00:07:57.319 --> 00:08:01.199 moved out and my dad had the house, doing the same thing with my 115 00:08:01.279 --> 00:08:03.240 dad and he'd be like, You've got to go to bed. And I 116 00:08:03.279 --> 00:08:07.800 mean, I wouldn't say that my parents were extremely lenient, but I wouldn't 117 00:08:07.800 --> 00:08:11.160 say that they were extremely strict either. And I think when I was that 118 00:08:11.319 --> 00:08:13.800 age, I was, you know, you got to go to bed by 119 00:08:13.920 --> 00:08:18.920 ten pm at the latest. How old was Antinette at this time? Old? 120 00:08:18.439 --> 00:08:20.560 Nine years old? Yeah, they would have been like, you got 121 00:08:20.560 --> 00:08:24.560 to be in bed by nine pm. Maybe if they let me stay up 122 00:08:24.560 --> 00:08:26.000 a little bit later, it would have been ten pm. And I do 123 00:08:26.120 --> 00:08:30.879 recognize that all families operate differently, but I'm going to go out on a 124 00:08:30.920 --> 00:08:33.559 limb here and say, pretty much, no families are going to let their 125 00:08:33.919 --> 00:08:39.080 nine years old and younger girls stay up until three am? What are you 126 00:08:39.159 --> 00:08:45.080 doing until three am? Like, I don't, I just don't even understand 127 00:08:45.200 --> 00:08:48.200 what one could be potentially doing. Are you having a movie marathon? Why 128 00:08:48.200 --> 00:08:52.320 are you still awake? What is keeping you up at that time because most 129 00:08:52.399 --> 00:08:58.039 people are going to be overcome with exhaustion by like one am. So it 130 00:08:58.200 --> 00:09:03.039 just seems fishy or like you said, that law enforcement didn't key into this 131 00:09:03.200 --> 00:09:07.799 is really interesting to me. Yeah. I think they probably did key into 132 00:09:07.840 --> 00:09:09.799 it, but they just didn't let it be known publicly at that time. 133 00:09:11.960 --> 00:09:16.279 But according to Penny, when she woke up, none of Antonette's clothing or 134 00:09:16.279 --> 00:09:20.159 personal itings were missing. The only thing that was not there was the paint 135 00:09:20.279 --> 00:09:22.600 nightgown she had last been seen wearing when she went to bed. Even though 136 00:09:22.600 --> 00:09:26.159 Penny was certain that she had locked the front door and latched the adjacent screen 137 00:09:26.200 --> 00:09:31.039 door before she went to bed, she noticed that these doors were now unlocked 138 00:09:31.039 --> 00:09:35.960 and unlatched, So she started wondering maybe Antonette just decided to step out into 139 00:09:35.000 --> 00:09:39.159 the morning air or something. But once she checked with all the neighbors and 140 00:09:39.240 --> 00:09:41.919 found out that no one had seen Antonette, she got really concerned and finally 141 00:09:43.000 --> 00:09:46.080 called the police in order to officially report her missing. So here is the 142 00:09:46.200 --> 00:09:50.440 very first version of events. So what allegedly took place in the middle of 143 00:09:50.440 --> 00:09:54.080 the night. We're going to hear a number of different stories, but at 144 00:09:54.080 --> 00:09:56.600 the time, the one that was reported in the newspapers back in nineteen eighty 145 00:09:56.600 --> 00:10:01.039 six was shared by the middle daughter, Sadie. He claimed that both she 146 00:10:01.200 --> 00:10:05.120 and Antonette had been woken up in the middle of the night by the sound 147 00:10:05.159 --> 00:10:07.919 of knocking at the front door, and when Antonette went to see who it 148 00:10:09.080 --> 00:10:11.519 was, Sadie said she heard the sound of a man and a woman outside 149 00:10:11.559 --> 00:10:16.480 identifying themselves as an aunt and an uncle and saying, hurry up, opened 150 00:10:16.519 --> 00:10:20.399 the door, we're called out here, But apparently Antonette looked out the window, 151 00:10:20.480 --> 00:10:24.159 did not recognize the man out there and refused to let them in, 152 00:10:24.279 --> 00:10:26.799 and then returned to the bedroom. And then, according to Sadie, she 153 00:10:26.879 --> 00:10:31.600 soon heard someone knocking on the front door a second time, and while she 154 00:10:31.639 --> 00:10:35.799 recalled seeing Antonette get up and leave to go see who it was, Sadie 155 00:10:35.840 --> 00:10:39.480 said that she stayed in bed and pretty much fell asleep immediately thereafter, so 156 00:10:39.519 --> 00:10:45.120 she could not be certain if Antonette actually opened the door, but her family 157 00:10:45.159 --> 00:10:48.320 said that Antonette would never opened the door for strangers, particularly in the middle 158 00:10:48.320 --> 00:10:52.879 of the night. But what seems weird is that Penny said that she slept 159 00:10:52.879 --> 00:10:56.240 through all this, that she did not recall hearing these two knocks at all. 160 00:10:56.720 --> 00:10:58.399 And though if you look at the layout of the house, you'll see 161 00:10:58.440 --> 00:11:01.639 that the bedroom she was in, the master bedroom, was very close to 162 00:11:01.720 --> 00:11:05.320 the front door. So it seems weird that these two kids would be awoken 163 00:11:05.360 --> 00:11:09.960 by these knocks but Penny would not hear anything. Was Penny a drink her, 164 00:11:11.320 --> 00:11:13.279 Yeah, she was, so that has been pushed forward as an alternate 165 00:11:13.279 --> 00:11:18.480 possibility. If she had been drinking heavily that night or doing drugs and passed 166 00:11:18.519 --> 00:11:22.399 out, then potentially she could have slept through it. Yeah. I think 167 00:11:22.480 --> 00:11:26.559 that is extremely possible, maybe even probable. Like you said, there are 168 00:11:26.600 --> 00:11:31.039 different scenarios here. We've got more information. If she is indeed involved, 169 00:11:31.039 --> 00:11:35.200 it very well could be a cover story. But on the other hand, 170 00:11:35.240 --> 00:11:39.159 if she isn't involved, then it could be an excuse in that if she 171 00:11:39.279 --> 00:11:43.080 was very intoxicated, and I mean if she could have been up till three 172 00:11:43.120 --> 00:11:48.919 am drinking you're really exhausted, there may have been other substances involved, hence 173 00:11:48.960 --> 00:11:52.200 the three am going to bedtime. It's just a little bit odd to be 174 00:11:52.240 --> 00:11:56.600 sitting around your home, even just drinking alcohol if you're not having a party. 175 00:11:56.159 --> 00:12:00.759 It's a little bizarre and there's just something that really doesn't feel right about 176 00:12:00.759 --> 00:12:05.919 it. So perhaps she was just really really drunk and didn't hear the knocking 177 00:12:05.960 --> 00:12:09.159 on the front door. I mean, I'm a heavy sleeper. I'm not 178 00:12:09.240 --> 00:12:11.039 a big drinker, Like I'll have a drink on occasion, but I'm not 179 00:12:11.120 --> 00:12:15.759 a drinker where I'm drinking to get drunk, like I fall asleep. I'm 180 00:12:15.759 --> 00:12:18.279 really tired. The chance of me waking up in the middle of the night 181 00:12:18.440 --> 00:12:22.240 to the sound of knocking at the door, I probably wouldn't hear it, 182 00:12:22.480 --> 00:12:26.519 whereas like my husband is keyed into like every single little sound. Are you 183 00:12:26.559 --> 00:12:30.559 like that? Are you a heavy sleeper? I can be. Yeah, 184 00:12:30.639 --> 00:12:33.440 So I think it is plausible that I could have slept through some knocking if 185 00:12:33.440 --> 00:12:37.240 I was really really tired. But it does seem kind of unusual that both 186 00:12:37.320 --> 00:12:41.039 Sadi and Antonette could be woken up twice within the course of the same night 187 00:12:41.120 --> 00:12:46.000 and Penny just did not recall hearing anything. Well, they probably weren't drunk, 188 00:12:46.279 --> 00:12:48.879 yeah, exactly, hopefully hopefully, Yeah, I hope that Penny was 189 00:12:48.919 --> 00:12:54.639 not that irresponsible a mother, so they launched a missing person's investigation from Antonette. 190 00:12:54.879 --> 00:12:58.480 Could not find any trace of her, and the investigation remained at a 191 00:12:58.519 --> 00:13:03.360 stand for about an entire year until April the twelfth, nineteen eighty seven, 192 00:13:03.399 --> 00:13:07.919 when a dispatcher at the Gallup Police Department received a phone call from a very 193 00:13:09.000 --> 00:13:13.240 frightened sounding girl who repeatedly said that her name was Antonette Kidito and that she 194 00:13:13.360 --> 00:13:18.679 was calling from Albuquerque. The dispatcher tried to ask the girl for more details, 195 00:13:18.720 --> 00:13:22.440 but then the girl was interrupted by the sound of an angry, unidentified 196 00:13:22.480 --> 00:13:24.519 man who yelled, who said you could use the phone, and then the 197 00:13:24.519 --> 00:13:28.759 girl screamed and some scuffling could be heard before the call was abruptly cut off. 198 00:13:30.200 --> 00:13:33.399 And I know that I sent you a link to the audio file because 199 00:13:33.440 --> 00:13:37.240 you can find the nine one one call on YouTube. So what are your 200 00:13:37.240 --> 00:13:41.440 thoughts on it? It was terrifying, like just to hear the panic in 201 00:13:41.480 --> 00:13:46.799 this little girl's voice. I one hundred percent think that it is a genuine 202 00:13:46.879 --> 00:13:50.200 nine one one call. I don't believe for a second that that's a prank, 203 00:13:50.759 --> 00:13:56.000 but something about it is strange and that it does feel like if if 204 00:13:56.000 --> 00:13:58.960 it is a kidnapping, it's an atypical one, because what type of kidnapp 205 00:14:00.679 --> 00:14:05.039 would a child then have the potential to access to telephone? It seems a 206 00:14:05.120 --> 00:14:11.000 little bit strange. So there is just this one element of this kidnapping, 207 00:14:11.080 --> 00:14:15.799 of this nine one one call that does feel a little bit odd or a 208 00:14:16.200 --> 00:14:18.480 hate saying a typical over and over again, but that is exactly what it 209 00:14:18.519 --> 00:14:22.559 feels like. Yeah, I mean, some people have speculated that the call 210 00:14:22.679 --> 00:14:26.519 could have been some sort of mean spirited prank, because whenever a missing person's 211 00:14:26.559 --> 00:14:31.720 cases make the news, there'll always be people who like decide to like mess 212 00:14:31.720 --> 00:14:35.440 with the police or torment the families. But you listen to the call and 213 00:14:35.480 --> 00:14:39.240 it's a little girl who does sound genuinely frightened. So if it was a 214 00:14:39.360 --> 00:14:43.600 prank, it was a pretty well done one. One other thing worth mentioning 215 00:14:43.679 --> 00:14:48.639 is that the call it apparently lasted over a total of forty seconds, but 216 00:14:48.840 --> 00:14:52.000 because this is technology from nineteen eighty seven, it does not sound like the 217 00:14:52.120 --> 00:14:58.600 dispatcher was able to trace it. But they've only released twenty seconds of the 218 00:14:58.679 --> 00:15:01.720 audio, which is the one you can find on YouTube, but it's been 219 00:15:01.759 --> 00:15:05.759 reported that the original recording contained the sound of another voice in the background, 220 00:15:05.799 --> 00:15:09.559 which may have belonged to an elderly person, and they could be heard asking 221 00:15:09.600 --> 00:15:13.960 who is on the line when the man yells at the crying girl. I 222 00:15:13.000 --> 00:15:16.799 mean, I can understand withholding details from the public, but it seems strange 223 00:15:16.840 --> 00:15:20.840 to me that this case is still unsolved after thirty seven years and we've never 224 00:15:20.879 --> 00:15:26.080 heard the full forty second audio. We've only heard that twenty second snippet. 225 00:15:26.240 --> 00:15:28.960 And all I could think was, why not play the voice of this other 226 00:15:28.000 --> 00:15:31.480 person in the background, because maybe someone will recognize it and it could help 227 00:15:31.480 --> 00:15:37.679 the case. I mean, this would potentially support the narrative that there could 228 00:15:37.679 --> 00:15:43.240 be family involvement, because in a situation where say a family member takes another 229 00:15:43.279 --> 00:15:46.039 family member, and especially when it's a young child, you might not have 230 00:15:46.080 --> 00:15:50.679 a situation where you need to bind their hands and their feet. But in 231 00:15:50.720 --> 00:15:56.840 a regular kidnapping, I would think that you would be sequestering that child somehow, 232 00:15:56.120 --> 00:15:58.480 and you would be binding their hands and feet. You would be making 233 00:15:58.519 --> 00:16:03.200 it in paulible for them to escape and impossible for them to be able to 234 00:16:03.240 --> 00:16:06.960 call for help in any capacity. But that isn't what we see here, 235 00:16:07.080 --> 00:16:11.279 if this is indeed genuine exactly, I mean, we have seen some other 236 00:16:11.360 --> 00:16:17.080 documented kidnappings like Elizabeth Smart, where the captor keeps the victim in captivity for 237 00:16:17.120 --> 00:16:21.039 so long and creates such a climate of fear that they eventually give them a 238 00:16:21.039 --> 00:16:23.480 little freedom and allow them to do stuff like go out in public because they 239 00:16:23.519 --> 00:16:26.679 think, I've put so much fear into this young person, she won't dare 240 00:16:27.000 --> 00:16:30.759 try to escape or do anything to try to get away. And that could 241 00:16:30.759 --> 00:16:33.720 have happened here. If Antonette was being held captive for a year, that 242 00:16:33.799 --> 00:16:38.519 maybe her kidnapper decided to give her some more freedom and let her wander around 243 00:16:38.519 --> 00:16:42.120 the house, but then she decided to use the opportunity to make a phone 244 00:16:42.120 --> 00:16:47.039 call. The audio was played for Penny, and she said that she was 245 00:16:47.080 --> 00:16:51.679 absolutely certain that the caller did sound like Antonette, but she claimed she did 246 00:16:51.720 --> 00:16:55.519 not recognize the voice of the man on the recording. And a lot of 247 00:16:55.519 --> 00:16:59.600 people have speculated, like, if she really was being held captive in Albuquerque, 248 00:16:59.639 --> 00:17:03.279 why what she called the police departments and Gallop or why wouldn't she try 249 00:17:03.359 --> 00:17:07.240 to call home or dial nine one one. My theory about that is that 250 00:17:07.359 --> 00:17:12.119 in nineteen eighty seven, only fifty percent of the communities in the US had 251 00:17:12.279 --> 00:17:17.759 nine one one, So I'm thinking that either Antonette didn't know how to use 252 00:17:17.799 --> 00:17:19.279 it, or had never heard of it, or it was just not available 253 00:17:19.359 --> 00:17:23.359 in that section of New Mexico. And another point worth mentioning is that her 254 00:17:23.440 --> 00:17:27.799 family did not actually have a house phone at the time she was abducted, 255 00:17:27.960 --> 00:17:33.000 and that Penny only installed one just in case any kidnappers called or the police 256 00:17:33.079 --> 00:17:37.880 needed to get hold of her. So if Antonette's trying to escape and wanting 257 00:17:37.880 --> 00:17:40.720 to phone for help, she's not going to phone her mother because her mother 258 00:17:40.799 --> 00:17:44.279 did not have a phone. And I've kind of theorized that if she was 259 00:17:44.400 --> 00:17:48.920 such a responsible person around the house, that perhaps at one point she memorized 260 00:17:48.960 --> 00:17:52.759 the phone number for the Gallup Police Department and that's why it was the first 261 00:17:52.880 --> 00:17:56.960 number she dialed when she was trying to call for help. Yeah, I 262 00:17:56.079 --> 00:18:00.359 doubt she had like a phone book right there where she had a list of 263 00:18:00.079 --> 00:18:03.799 potential police numbers that she could call, because it wasn't so easy as it 264 00:18:03.920 --> 00:18:07.599 is today, where it's like you just called nine one one and you're connected. 265 00:18:07.960 --> 00:18:11.319 So the fact that she would be responsible enough to remember a number. 266 00:18:11.640 --> 00:18:15.480 I don't think we could get too bogged down in which number she called Gallup 267 00:18:15.640 --> 00:18:19.160 or Albuquerque. I think the fact that she remembered one of them is pretty 268 00:18:19.200 --> 00:18:23.920 amazing, if that is indeed a genuine phone call, which I do think. 269 00:18:25.000 --> 00:18:27.200 The point you bring up is interesting when you bring up what you said 270 00:18:27.240 --> 00:18:32.960 just a little while ago about the Elizabeth smartcase. Where you see the people 271 00:18:33.039 --> 00:18:37.319 there, people who were held under darress eventually are given more freedoms, you 272 00:18:37.400 --> 00:18:41.400 have Stockholm syndrome kind of kick in for some people. You have situations like 273 00:18:41.519 --> 00:18:47.279 Colleen stan where when she was released after being sexually tortured and held in this 274 00:18:47.480 --> 00:18:49.839 box for it was like years. I think when she was let go, 275 00:18:51.079 --> 00:18:56.480 she just like left and didn't go to the police. Wasn't until I can't 276 00:18:56.480 --> 00:19:02.720 remember the man, the guy's name Cameron maybe, yeah, I can't remember 277 00:19:02.759 --> 00:19:06.920 his last name, but when his partner found Jesus or whatever, and she 278 00:19:07.119 --> 00:19:11.079 decided to tell the pastor, and then the pastor got the police involved, 279 00:19:11.119 --> 00:19:14.680 and then they talked to Colleen and then all of this came out and it 280 00:19:14.880 --> 00:19:18.440 was like, whoa, she just is let go and she doesn't even go 281 00:19:18.519 --> 00:19:21.359 to the police. But it's like he had told her this whole time that 282 00:19:21.400 --> 00:19:25.200 this organization was watching her and that if she made a wrong move they were 283 00:19:25.240 --> 00:19:26.960 going to come for her. They've got all this time to brainwash, so 284 00:19:27.119 --> 00:19:30.039 it does make sense that she could have had a little bit of freedom, 285 00:19:30.079 --> 00:19:36.319 and they might have trusted that she wouldn't be calculated enough at her young age 286 00:19:36.680 --> 00:19:40.640 to wait for that moment to try to make her move. Well, now 287 00:19:40.680 --> 00:19:44.400 that we're on the subject of captive girls being allowed to be taken out in 288 00:19:44.480 --> 00:19:47.720 public, that brings us to the next development in the case, which took 289 00:19:47.759 --> 00:19:52.359 place in nineteen ninety one. The FBI decided to release an age progressed a 290 00:19:52.480 --> 00:19:56.559 composite sketch to show what Antonette would have looked like at fourteen, because she 291 00:19:56.680 --> 00:20:02.519 had been missing for about five years at this point, and after this composite 292 00:20:02.559 --> 00:20:07.119 sketch was released, the authorities were soon contacted by a waitress from a diner 293 00:20:07.240 --> 00:20:11.519 in Carson City, Nevada, who claimed that she had served a teenage girl 294 00:20:11.640 --> 00:20:15.359 matching Antonette's description. According to the waitress, the girl was in the company 295 00:20:15.440 --> 00:20:19.079 of a white man and a white woman who she described as looking unkempt. 296 00:20:19.519 --> 00:20:23.079 She said that to the girl who looked like Antonette like appeared to be really 297 00:20:23.160 --> 00:20:27.039 shy and frightened and never looked up, and that when she was serving them, 298 00:20:27.119 --> 00:20:30.440 she would do weird things like intentionally knocked her fork on the floor and 299 00:20:30.519 --> 00:20:33.559 get the waitress to go pick it up, as if she was trying to 300 00:20:33.920 --> 00:20:37.759 capture her attention. And then later on the couple and the girl left, 301 00:20:37.880 --> 00:20:41.640 and when the waitress was coming to collect the plates and the check, she 302 00:20:41.839 --> 00:20:45.799 found out that the girl had written a message under a napkin with the words 303 00:20:45.880 --> 00:20:49.880 helped me and call the police. And of course, once this waitress saw 304 00:20:49.960 --> 00:20:55.279 Antonette's age composite sketch, she thought she bears a resemblance to this girl, 305 00:20:55.400 --> 00:20:59.720 so that's why she decided to contact the authorities. In retrospect. I do 306 00:20:59.839 --> 00:21:03.799 not believe that this girl was Antonette. I think this was probably a mistaken 307 00:21:03.839 --> 00:21:07.880 eyewitness siding. But it's kind of a compelling mystery within a mystery, because 308 00:21:07.920 --> 00:21:11.680 it makes me wonder who was this girl and why was she writing these secret 309 00:21:11.759 --> 00:21:15.519 messages in order to call for help. I mean, I guess there's any 310 00:21:15.640 --> 00:21:18.319 number of reasons. It could have been a situation where she could be with 311 00:21:18.400 --> 00:21:22.880 her family members and maybe she's being abused in some way. That's why she's 312 00:21:22.920 --> 00:21:26.279 not looking up. She might not be kidnapped. It could be really simple, 313 00:21:26.359 --> 00:21:30.079 or she could be another missing child who's being kidnapped. There is no 314 00:21:30.240 --> 00:21:33.440 shortage of that when you look all across the US. You don't even have 315 00:21:33.519 --> 00:21:37.640 to look locally. It could be somebody from another state. But it could 316 00:21:37.680 --> 00:21:41.559 just be somebody so simple as there's violence in the home, they're being abused, 317 00:21:41.799 --> 00:21:47.000 whether you know, psychologically, emotionally, sexually, and they really need 318 00:21:47.119 --> 00:21:51.200 some kind of law enforcement intervention. Yeah, that's the vibe I got, 319 00:21:51.319 --> 00:21:53.119 just the way that she was acting her body language, and she was in 320 00:21:53.240 --> 00:21:56.839 public where it felt like she was fearful of the two people she was with 321 00:21:57.119 --> 00:22:00.640 and was just trying to capture the waitresses attention. And it makes me feel 322 00:22:00.720 --> 00:22:03.839 kind of bad for because if she wasn't Antonette, it makes me wonder what 323 00:22:04.000 --> 00:22:07.799 happened to this girl. I hope she turned out all right. But one 324 00:22:07.839 --> 00:22:11.759 reason that I am inclined to think that the eyewitness was mistaken is because we 325 00:22:11.839 --> 00:22:15.640 see so many missing persons cases where they see a photograph of the missing victim 326 00:22:15.759 --> 00:22:19.319 and then see someone that they're completely certain is the victim, but then it 327 00:22:19.400 --> 00:22:22.039 turns out they were wrong. Well, this is a case where she's not 328 00:22:22.119 --> 00:22:26.160 even judging the appearance on a current photo of Antonette. She's looking at an 329 00:22:26.200 --> 00:22:32.519 age enhanced composit sketch to show up what Antonette might look like at age fourteen. 330 00:22:32.680 --> 00:22:34.519 But we don't even know if those things are really accurate. So I 331 00:22:34.640 --> 00:22:37.839 am inclined to believe that the waitress just saw another girl who kind of looked 332 00:22:37.880 --> 00:22:41.839 like the sketch. I'm inclined to agree with you, just because we've got 333 00:22:42.319 --> 00:22:48.400 eyewitness sightings that are so problematic. We've got nobody to substantiate this possibility that 334 00:22:48.519 --> 00:22:52.160 this could be Antonette based on what she looked like. They're like, if 335 00:22:52.160 --> 00:22:56.359 there was another couple of waitresses, maybe one of the cooks had seen her. 336 00:22:56.759 --> 00:23:00.279 There was a few other people that were like, yeah, you're right, 337 00:23:00.400 --> 00:23:03.599 it could be her. But again, when we're working off an imperfect 338 00:23:03.960 --> 00:23:07.599 sketch here, this isn't like just a composite sketch of Antonette, like you 339 00:23:07.640 --> 00:23:11.880 said, it's age progress. So they're just assuming she's going to progress like 340 00:23:11.960 --> 00:23:15.480 that. There's a lot of variables that go into how someone ages and how 341 00:23:15.559 --> 00:23:21.119 someone grows, how much sunlight they're getting, what type of food they're eating, 342 00:23:21.559 --> 00:23:25.480 you know, their psychological state, how much exercise they're getting. There's 343 00:23:25.519 --> 00:23:29.960 so many different factors. Just how well taken care of she is. You're 344 00:23:30.000 --> 00:23:32.920 just going to assume that she's going to age in this linear way, but 345 00:23:33.079 --> 00:23:37.200 that isn't always the case. Somebody could be stunted with their growth, or 346 00:23:37.359 --> 00:23:41.960 they could they could flourish, they could grow taller and bigger, their facial 347 00:23:41.000 --> 00:23:45.480 features could be slightly different for a variety of reasons. Say she breaks her 348 00:23:45.559 --> 00:23:49.960 nose, So I just think that the probability of that actually being Antonette is 349 00:23:51.079 --> 00:23:55.240 pretty low. Yeah, I totally agree, particularly when you learn the new 350 00:23:55.319 --> 00:23:59.839 information that I'm going to share later on. But that exiting what is important 351 00:23:59.880 --> 00:24:03.880 in the long run, because it compelled the Gallop Police Department to start performing 352 00:24:03.920 --> 00:24:07.359 a new investigation and reinterview people connected to the case. And they also brought 353 00:24:07.400 --> 00:24:11.759 in an FBI agent because if Antonette had been kidnapped and cross state lines, 354 00:24:11.799 --> 00:24:17.240 it would technically make it a federal case under the FBI's jurisdiction. So the 355 00:24:17.359 --> 00:24:21.440 lead detective from the gallop d a guy named Marty Escabelle, as well as 356 00:24:21.440 --> 00:24:26.599 an FBI agent named Kevin Miles. They decided to interview Antonette's youngest sister, 357 00:24:26.759 --> 00:24:30.440 Wendy, who would have only been five years old at the time her sister 358 00:24:30.519 --> 00:24:33.319 went missing. And as you recall, the person who originally shared the story 359 00:24:33.359 --> 00:24:36.920 about the knox on the door in the middle of the night was the middle 360 00:24:37.000 --> 00:24:40.480 sister, Sadie, So I don't think Wendy had really talked about her all 361 00:24:40.519 --> 00:24:45.000 that much. And what's interesting is that Escabelle and Miles decided to approach Wendy 362 00:24:45.119 --> 00:24:48.359 while she was at her school playground. They decided not to question her in 363 00:24:48.440 --> 00:24:52.880 the presence of her mother, and this is when Wendy just suddenly told an 364 00:24:52.920 --> 00:24:56.880 all new story where she said that sometime during the early morning hours, she 365 00:24:56.039 --> 00:25:00.319 was awakened by a knock at the front door, and when Antonett went to 366 00:25:00.400 --> 00:25:03.640 answer it and asked who it was, a man replied that it was her 367 00:25:03.759 --> 00:25:07.720 uncle Joe, and according to Wendy, she saw Antonette open the door. 368 00:25:07.880 --> 00:25:11.960 But then Wendy then said that she saw two men grab Antonette and forced her 369 00:25:11.000 --> 00:25:15.160 into a brown van which was parked in front of the house before they drove 370 00:25:15.200 --> 00:25:19.079 away. So the investigators immediately asked Wendy, why did you wait five years 371 00:25:19.160 --> 00:25:22.400 to tell us this story, and she said, well, I was worried 372 00:25:22.400 --> 00:25:25.920 I was going to get in trouble. I saw that my mother was crying 373 00:25:25.960 --> 00:25:27.599 a lot of the time and seemed upset, so and I was worried that 374 00:25:27.640 --> 00:25:30.960 no one would believe me. So that's why I didn't say anything until now. 375 00:25:32.440 --> 00:25:34.079 But she said that she didn't really get a good enough look at the 376 00:25:34.160 --> 00:25:38.160 two men to provide much of a description. And it turned out that Antonette 377 00:25:38.200 --> 00:25:41.359 did have an uncle, Joe, who was married to Penny's sister back in 378 00:25:41.519 --> 00:25:45.680 nineteen eighty six, but after interviewing him, investigators learned that he had a 379 00:25:45.759 --> 00:25:49.880 rock solid alibi on the night Antonette when missing, so they ruled him out 380 00:25:49.960 --> 00:25:55.000 as being the person who went to the door that night or having any involvement 381 00:25:55.160 --> 00:25:57.960 in Antonette's disappearance. But the story, of course, is so weird because 382 00:25:59.039 --> 00:26:03.640 it completely predicts the story that Sadie originally provided back in nineteen eighty six. 383 00:26:04.319 --> 00:26:10.440 That's so strange. It's so weird that there actually is an uncle show. 384 00:26:11.119 --> 00:26:14.680 But I wonder if they checked his alibi back then, and that's why they 385 00:26:14.799 --> 00:26:18.599 know that he had a rock solid alibi, because who could be asked about 386 00:26:18.640 --> 00:26:21.240 where they were on a date five years ago and be like, oh, 387 00:26:21.359 --> 00:26:25.079 yeah, I was exactly doing this one thing and be able to provide it 388 00:26:25.119 --> 00:26:27.640 to police five years later. That just seems odd. But maybe they already 389 00:26:27.680 --> 00:26:33.440 have that information, and they'd already interviewed all of the people close to Antoinette 390 00:26:33.519 --> 00:26:37.440 and all of her family members and so on. But don't you think it's 391 00:26:37.440 --> 00:26:41.880 like a little bit odd these two guys like creep up on the playground and 392 00:26:41.000 --> 00:26:45.880 they go to interview her when she's unaccompanied by an adult. It seems a 393 00:26:45.920 --> 00:26:48.880 little odd. I mean, I understand why they did it, because they're 394 00:26:48.920 --> 00:26:53.359 trying to get a genuine answer, but all it sounds a little sketchy when 395 00:26:53.400 --> 00:26:56.359 you do that to a child. And it's kind of funny because they show 396 00:26:56.400 --> 00:27:00.119 a reenactment of it on Unsolved Mysteries, and as far as I can tell, 397 00:27:00.279 --> 00:27:04.640 Wendy is playing herself and the two investigators are playing themselves. And while 398 00:27:04.640 --> 00:27:07.960 they didn't say so publicly at the time, I get the feeling that maybe 399 00:27:08.039 --> 00:27:12.680 they privately had some suspicions about Penny that they weren't telling the whole truth, 400 00:27:14.000 --> 00:27:17.720 and this is why they decided to question Wendy without the presence of her mother, 401 00:27:17.880 --> 00:27:21.559 thinking that, Okay, if we finally speak to her and Penny has 402 00:27:21.559 --> 00:27:25.079 been withholding anything, then maybe Wendy will tell us. But instead she gives 403 00:27:25.119 --> 00:27:29.000 them a completely different story about this uncle Joe, which no one was expecting. 404 00:27:29.519 --> 00:27:32.960 And it is true though it does sound like that, like they did 405 00:27:33.039 --> 00:27:36.519 look at Uncle Joe back in nineteen eighty six and then they checked him out 406 00:27:36.519 --> 00:27:40.640 again five years later and became convinced that he did have a solid alibi and 407 00:27:40.759 --> 00:27:45.079 wasn't involved. So the speculation was that if this story was true, then 408 00:27:45.160 --> 00:27:49.079 whoever knocked on the door that night had intimate knowledge of Antonette's life and figured, 409 00:27:49.359 --> 00:27:52.720 well, if she's comfortable with her uncle Joe and we says her uncle 410 00:27:52.799 --> 00:27:56.440 Joe, then she'll be willing to open the door, and then we can 411 00:27:56.559 --> 00:28:00.000 use this opportunity to kidnap her. Okay, question for you, what do 412 00:28:00.079 --> 00:28:04.920 you think about the veracity of Wendy's statements given how young she was at the 413 00:28:06.000 --> 00:28:11.720 time, Like how accurate do you think that they could potentially be or do 414 00:28:11.839 --> 00:28:15.240 you think that there's a possibility that she may have conflated kind of other information 415 00:28:15.920 --> 00:28:22.440 and kind of external information and built some narrative in her head because children have 416 00:28:22.599 --> 00:28:26.240 been known to do that. Well, that was what I was thinking originally, 417 00:28:26.359 --> 00:28:30.319 because like we've had this story from Sadie that there was a man and 418 00:28:30.400 --> 00:28:33.160 a woman knocking on the door in the middle of the night, claiming to 419 00:28:33.240 --> 00:28:36.799 be Antonette's aunt and uncle, saying let us in, we're called outside. 420 00:28:37.119 --> 00:28:40.680 But then Antonette looked out the window saw that it was two people's she did 421 00:28:40.759 --> 00:28:44.240 not recognize, and then refused to open the door. And it's never been 422 00:28:44.279 --> 00:28:48.279 clarified if Wendy was awake or witnessed this particular event, but it could be 423 00:28:48.319 --> 00:28:51.720 a thing where she was so young at the time, and maybe Sadie's told 424 00:28:51.759 --> 00:28:53.960 her this story that a bunch of stuff has entered her head to convince her 425 00:28:55.039 --> 00:28:57.759 that it was Uncle Joe knocking on the door that night, and then Antonette 426 00:28:57.759 --> 00:29:00.680 answered, and who knows, maybe she had a vivid dream about it and 427 00:29:00.799 --> 00:29:04.000 was convinced it was reality, and then all these years later that was the 428 00:29:04.079 --> 00:29:10.759 story she shared with police. Because it's pretty easy to manipulate or implant false 429 00:29:10.920 --> 00:29:14.720 memories with people, even in a way that isn't malicious. I mean, 430 00:29:14.880 --> 00:29:19.480 psychologists do these experiments where they show people these pictures of their family on a 431 00:29:19.599 --> 00:29:23.240 vacation in a certain place, and they like superimpose their heads in there, 432 00:29:23.319 --> 00:29:26.440 and then they tell them about, oh, yes, no, you went 433 00:29:26.519 --> 00:29:30.240 to Hawaii, you were there, don't you remember that vacation? And then 434 00:29:30.279 --> 00:29:33.400 as time goes on, they start filling in the gaps. They'll start telling 435 00:29:33.440 --> 00:29:37.680 you all these details of these vacations. They genuinely believe that this is something 436 00:29:37.759 --> 00:29:41.000 that happened to them. It's really not hard to do. So if you're 437 00:29:41.039 --> 00:29:45.279 like a seven year old child and you're having an older sibling tell you that, 438 00:29:45.720 --> 00:29:48.279 it could be pretty easy to take on that information. But it is 439 00:29:48.359 --> 00:29:53.200 also possible that she too saw something similar. It is true, and we'll 440 00:29:53.240 --> 00:29:56.160 talk more about this later on, but I think there is also a possibility 441 00:29:56.279 --> 00:30:00.400 that her mother could have fettered that story. And basically, he said, 442 00:30:00.440 --> 00:30:03.039 if the police come to question you again, tell them that uncle someone claiming 443 00:30:03.079 --> 00:30:06.759 to be Uncle Joe was at the door, even though it may not even 444 00:30:06.799 --> 00:30:11.559 be true. So I first became familiar with this case when it was featured 445 00:30:11.640 --> 00:30:15.079 on Unsolved Mysteries in December of nineteen ninety two. It had all this information 446 00:30:15.200 --> 00:30:18.519 about Uncle Joe and the sighting of the diner, and it also played the 447 00:30:18.559 --> 00:30:23.759 audio of the phone call. And watching it now, it's very bizarre because 448 00:30:25.200 --> 00:30:29.319 at the time there had never been any public suspicion that Penny was considered to 449 00:30:29.400 --> 00:30:33.480 be a suspect or that the authorities believe that she knew more than she was 450 00:30:33.559 --> 00:30:37.279 telling. So watching it, you just assume that Penny is a really bereaved 451 00:30:37.400 --> 00:30:41.640 mother who's doing everything possible to try to find her daughter. And there's this 452 00:30:41.920 --> 00:30:47.039 very weird section where they show Penny Pink visit to a Navajo medicine woman who 453 00:30:47.200 --> 00:30:51.680 was holding what they call a centuries old Navajo ceremony called the Crystal Ritual, 454 00:30:52.079 --> 00:30:56.359 and which she is attempting to contact Antonette's spirit, and the medicine woman is 455 00:30:56.400 --> 00:31:00.519 shown on camera saying that she believes Antonette is still alive and being held against 456 00:31:00.559 --> 00:31:03.880 her will somewhere in the southwest United States, and may have even had her 457 00:31:03.920 --> 00:31:07.240 own child at that point. And of course watching this at the time, 458 00:31:07.279 --> 00:31:11.519 it's like, Okay, this is unsolved mysteries. They love looking at people 459 00:31:11.640 --> 00:31:15.680 who supposedly have psychic abilities and stuff, so they're just kind of doing this 460 00:31:15.119 --> 00:31:19.319 for the camera. But as the years went on, authorities would start directing 461 00:31:19.400 --> 00:31:23.680 suspicion about Penny. So you have to wonder, is she visiting this Noveljo 462 00:31:23.759 --> 00:31:27.720 Medicine a woman just to like give off the impression that she's innocent and that 463 00:31:27.839 --> 00:31:33.279 she has no knowledge of what happened to her daughter. Yeah, it could 464 00:31:33.319 --> 00:31:37.680 go either way. I mean, she could be trying to do too much 465 00:31:37.920 --> 00:31:41.039 in the sense that she's trying to like just put herself out there, like 466 00:31:41.119 --> 00:31:45.119 the lady doth protests too much. Let me just go around and like do 467 00:31:45.319 --> 00:31:48.599 all of these things and try to look the most innocent. But it also 468 00:31:48.680 --> 00:31:52.440 could just be this is part of her culture and she's really trying to connect 469 00:31:52.480 --> 00:31:56.519 to it in order to speak to her daughter's spirit or in order to commune 470 00:31:56.559 --> 00:32:00.920 with her in some type of way. So it could be interpreted in a 471 00:32:00.039 --> 00:32:04.279 multitude of ways. If you're in the camp of thinking that she has something 472 00:32:04.359 --> 00:32:07.519 to do with Antonette's disappearance, then it could just be like this lady is 473 00:32:07.559 --> 00:32:12.440 doing this for optics type of a thing. Yeah, it's certainly possible in 474 00:32:12.519 --> 00:32:15.960 retrospect that that's possibly what she was doing. I'd be really curious to know 475 00:32:15.039 --> 00:32:19.680 who came up with the idea of taking the case to Unsolved Mysteries to begin 476 00:32:19.759 --> 00:32:24.119 with, because if Penny had involvement in Antonette's disappearance or knew what happened to 477 00:32:24.240 --> 00:32:29.960 her, I cannot see her deciding to want to get the national exposure for 478 00:32:30.039 --> 00:32:34.400 the case on television because Unsawd Mysteries did play a role in solving a lot 479 00:32:34.480 --> 00:32:37.079 of cold cases back during the nineteen nineties. But if it's a case where 480 00:32:37.160 --> 00:32:40.200 law enforcement decided to take the case to the show, then I can see 481 00:32:40.279 --> 00:32:44.359 Penny thinking, well, it's gonna look suspicious if I'm not interviewed and don't 482 00:32:44.359 --> 00:32:46.279 go along with it, So I'm gonna try it for optics. I'm going 483 00:32:46.359 --> 00:32:51.599 to play the role of the bereaved mother. What about Jule Kaylor. Did 484 00:32:51.680 --> 00:32:54.640 he bring that case to Unsolved Mysteries or was that law enforcement? I don't 485 00:32:54.640 --> 00:32:58.039 know that for certain. I have a feeling it wasn't. I think it 486 00:32:58.160 --> 00:33:01.960 was probably Dottie's sister because she was working fervently to find her and he pretty 487 00:33:02.000 --> 00:33:05.720 much figured, well, they're gonna put me on camera. I got nothing 488 00:33:05.759 --> 00:33:07.079 to hide, so I'm just gonna say whatever the hell I want and the 489 00:33:07.160 --> 00:33:13.279 rest is history. Yeah, that was shocking. I mean there are certain 490 00:33:13.359 --> 00:33:15.880 people like Tim McClure, you know, in the Murder of Terry McClure that 491 00:33:16.200 --> 00:33:21.640 didn't come off very well either. There's some where you're like, why are 492 00:33:21.720 --> 00:33:25.480 you even doing an interview? Somebody should have told you no, but yet 493 00:33:25.559 --> 00:33:30.160 they just go full force. And I think a lot of times it's a 494 00:33:30.240 --> 00:33:32.759 lack of education. With Juel Kaylor, it was not that he was an 495 00:33:32.839 --> 00:33:37.000 intelligent man. He just chose to do the interview, and I think he 496 00:33:37.160 --> 00:33:42.359 was completely just like unaffected by the fact that he may come off in a 497 00:33:42.480 --> 00:33:45.599 certain way. He just knew that there was nothing that could be brought forth 498 00:33:45.960 --> 00:33:49.920 to be able to put him in prison. So he was just like a 499 00:33:49.960 --> 00:33:53.319 little flagrant about it pretty much. Yeah, And in this case, it's 500 00:33:53.359 --> 00:33:57.279 like, Okay, well, who's the one who's pushing this forward? Because 501 00:33:57.319 --> 00:34:00.599 we do see people who just love attention, even though it might be like, 502 00:34:00.799 --> 00:34:04.319 hey, I had something to do with what happened to my child, 503 00:34:04.519 --> 00:34:07.480 it might be like what could I do to garner the most attention? Because 504 00:34:07.519 --> 00:34:12.199 I'm somebody who feeds off of that. Well. I will say that at 505 00:34:12.239 --> 00:34:15.360 the time I originally watched this, and for many years afterwards, I never 506 00:34:15.480 --> 00:34:17.800 thought a Penny Kayidito and Duke Kale are in the same sentence. Like, 507 00:34:19.039 --> 00:34:22.039 I didn't really feel suspicious about her at all. I mean, I did 508 00:34:22.119 --> 00:34:24.159 find the story weird that Antonette woke up in the middle of the night to 509 00:34:24.199 --> 00:34:29.400 answer the door, but Penny seemed like a genuinely grieving mother. It kind 510 00:34:29.440 --> 00:34:31.519 of took me by surprise many years after the fact, when I found out 511 00:34:31.679 --> 00:34:37.280 that the authorities were suspicious of her. She was going through a really rough 512 00:34:37.360 --> 00:34:42.480 time after Antonette's disappearance, as she spent many years struggling with alcoholism and had 513 00:34:42.519 --> 00:34:45.559 to be institutionalized a few times. And it was in April of nineteen ninety 514 00:34:45.639 --> 00:34:51.199 nine when she passed away at the age of only forty six due to cirrhrosis 515 00:34:51.280 --> 00:34:57.719 of liver and cardiac issues. And this is interesting, Apparently the FBI they 516 00:34:57.760 --> 00:35:00.199 had interviewed her sometime in the mid nineteen nineties, and they said that they 517 00:35:00.280 --> 00:35:05.800 were planning to reinterview her on her deathbed, but she passed away before they 518 00:35:05.840 --> 00:35:08.079 could do so. So it seemed clear that they believe she might have had 519 00:35:08.159 --> 00:35:12.400 some knowledge that she way have wanted to get off her chest, but they 520 00:35:12.480 --> 00:35:15.559 just never got the opportunity to get it. Damn. Yeah, I know. 521 00:35:16.199 --> 00:35:21.400 So that's sad that they never got that opportunity, and like just wanted 522 00:35:21.440 --> 00:35:23.760 to touch on really quickly in regards to what you said earlier about how you 523 00:35:23.880 --> 00:35:30.559 didn't think of Penny and Joel kaylor in like the same vein because you thought, 524 00:35:30.599 --> 00:35:32.320 like, she's just a grieving mother. I think even if she is 525 00:35:32.400 --> 00:35:37.000 involved, she still can be a grieving mother. I think one can look 526 00:35:37.079 --> 00:35:40.079 back in retrospect and go, I have the I have these great regret. 527 00:35:40.519 --> 00:35:45.119 This isn't what I should have done. I am, you know, falling 528 00:35:45.159 --> 00:35:49.559 apart at the seems here emotionally. I mean, people do make mistakes. 529 00:35:49.599 --> 00:35:52.440 I mean, that's a catastrophic mistake if you do that. But I think 530 00:35:52.719 --> 00:35:57.000 that to assume that they aren't going to grieve, I think would be a 531 00:35:57.079 --> 00:36:00.559 wrong assumption. I think unless you're you know, a psycho path, you're 532 00:36:00.599 --> 00:36:04.519 probably going to have some sort of grief, even if they were kidnapped or 533 00:36:04.719 --> 00:36:07.079 died at your hand. Oh yeah, Like I never got the sense that 534 00:36:07.440 --> 00:36:10.800 Penny was a psychopath. I do believe that if she was complicit in her 535 00:36:10.880 --> 00:36:15.639 daughter's disappearance or gave her away, that she eventually came to suffer great remorse 536 00:36:15.679 --> 00:36:20.239 about it, and I think that's what led to herself destructive lifestyle and her 537 00:36:20.320 --> 00:36:23.559 becoming an alcoholic and dying at such a young age. But it was kind 538 00:36:23.599 --> 00:36:28.639 of weird because the detective who was interviewed on Unsolved Mysteries, Marty Escabell. 539 00:36:29.280 --> 00:36:32.039 He was interviewed for a newspaper article in two and ten, and by that 540 00:36:32.199 --> 00:36:36.159 point he had left the department and was no longer working on the case, 541 00:36:36.599 --> 00:36:39.320 and for the first time he publicly expressed his suspicions about Penny, saying, 542 00:36:39.400 --> 00:36:44.800 quote, I'm pretty confident that Penny had knowledge of who took Antonette based on 543 00:36:44.920 --> 00:36:49.039 her failing a polygraph test and ministered by the FBI. End quote. So 544 00:36:49.320 --> 00:36:52.599 in retrospect, you're now thinking it makes a lot more sense now that he 545 00:36:52.760 --> 00:36:57.280 decided to go and interview Wendy alone while she was on the playground because he 546 00:36:57.400 --> 00:37:00.880 had these suspicions about Penny all along. Yeah, and you know, as 547 00:37:00.920 --> 00:37:06.480 an investigator, even though that's the wrong move in the sense that you can't 548 00:37:06.519 --> 00:37:10.000 really go forward with anything that child says in court because they need to have 549 00:37:10.079 --> 00:37:14.639 a guardian present. But if you're trying to just get to the crux of 550 00:37:14.679 --> 00:37:16.920 the story here, and you really want to see if this is going to 551 00:37:17.119 --> 00:37:22.800 kind of diverge from her initial statement, if there's going to be anything unique, 552 00:37:22.800 --> 00:37:25.840 if there's going to be similarities, because what they're looking for is consistency. 553 00:37:27.239 --> 00:37:30.519 Right. There may be other elements that you remember, but the general 554 00:37:30.639 --> 00:37:35.239 like meat of the story should remain the same. It's when somebody's giving you 555 00:37:35.360 --> 00:37:39.159 something completely different, You're going, WHOA, Okay, why why is this 556 00:37:39.320 --> 00:37:43.920 different? And I think it's because of all those reasons that we discussed previously. 557 00:37:44.039 --> 00:37:47.000 It could just be because she's conflated these memories with her sister Sadie. 558 00:37:47.280 --> 00:37:51.320 It also could be because her mother has fed her this, and it also 559 00:37:51.360 --> 00:37:54.159 could be because it is a genuine memory. Yeah, it is possible. 560 00:37:54.239 --> 00:37:58.719 Like I'm sure they were just checking like every option that they had. But 561 00:37:59.199 --> 00:38:01.679 it did surprise me though, when I was researching my podcast episode that other 562 00:38:01.760 --> 00:38:07.159 police detectives did have some suspicions, not specifically about Penny, but against members 563 00:38:07.199 --> 00:38:12.360 of the family. Because I found a nineteen eighty seven article in the Albuquerque 564 00:38:12.519 --> 00:38:15.320 Journal where a police detective said that where he confirmed that no one had yet 565 00:38:15.360 --> 00:38:19.760 been ruled out as a suspect, including family members, and he said this 566 00:38:19.920 --> 00:38:22.840 quote, My gut feeling is that some family members may not be telling us 567 00:38:22.920 --> 00:38:27.559 all they know. He said that police originally did not know that a number 568 00:38:27.599 --> 00:38:30.039 of people had been in and out of the Kaiadido residence on the night of 569 00:38:30.079 --> 00:38:34.960 Antonette's disappearance, And it was one of those things where Penny just did not 570 00:38:35.239 --> 00:38:38.559 reveal this ahead of time and only like did it like days after the fact, 571 00:38:38.679 --> 00:38:42.920 even though you should tell police everything if your child has gone missing. 572 00:38:43.079 --> 00:38:45.280 So it sounds like they had suspicions about her from the get go, but 573 00:38:45.639 --> 00:38:52.719 we're electing to keep it private until after Penny passed away. So murky and 574 00:38:52.920 --> 00:38:59.239 like insidious. What would these family members want with Antonette? What did they 575 00:38:59.400 --> 00:39:02.280 do with her if they were indeed involved? Did they hold her against her 576 00:39:02.320 --> 00:39:07.440 will? Did they sell her into sex trafficking? Did they keep her for 577 00:39:07.559 --> 00:39:14.559 some kind of nefarious purpose. It's just so convoluted and confusing, and I 578 00:39:15.039 --> 00:39:19.000 hate to even think of the awful things that could have befallen this little girl. 579 00:39:19.559 --> 00:39:22.880 But the fact that police seem to keep coming back to this common denominator 580 00:39:23.000 --> 00:39:29.199 of the family. We hate as true crime podcasters to ever point the finger 581 00:39:29.280 --> 00:39:35.440 at the family unless there is substantial evidence to prove their involvement. But when 582 00:39:35.519 --> 00:39:43.719 law enforcement keep revisiting this and keep articulating their suspicions, there's potentially something there. 583 00:39:44.599 --> 00:39:46.920 Oh yeah, Like it should be confirmed that Penny was never publicly named 584 00:39:46.960 --> 00:39:51.599 as a suspect or person of interest, and that even if law enforcement had 585 00:39:51.599 --> 00:39:53.960 their suspicions about her, they did not have any evidence to show that she 586 00:39:54.119 --> 00:39:59.280 was involved, which is why they kind of kept their suspicions private. But 587 00:39:59.440 --> 00:40:01.800 one other thing I wanted to address is that there's a rumor that has spread 588 00:40:01.840 --> 00:40:06.559 about Penny for many, many years. I've seen it on online message boards 589 00:40:06.639 --> 00:40:10.679 and inforums and discussions about this case that she reportedly purchased a new sports car 590 00:40:10.800 --> 00:40:15.679 the very week after Antonette went missing, which it was true, would look 591 00:40:15.800 --> 00:40:20.800 very very sketchy because this was a family living in poverty in a low income 592 00:40:20.880 --> 00:40:23.000 housing area, and she should not have the money for a sports car. 593 00:40:23.239 --> 00:40:28.320 So if it was true, it lends possible credence to the idea that maybe 594 00:40:28.400 --> 00:40:30.960 she sold her daughter for money and was just kind of flaunting it now that 595 00:40:31.039 --> 00:40:35.840 Antonette was gone. But the problem is, I've never been able to find 596 00:40:35.920 --> 00:40:39.719 any media source, any newspaper article that shares this sports car story, and 597 00:40:39.880 --> 00:40:44.239 I'm trying to figure out where it originated. And I think someone who claimed 598 00:40:44.280 --> 00:40:47.760 to have inside knowledge of the case left this comment on web sluice many many 599 00:40:47.840 --> 00:40:52.000 years ago, and I think people have taken this comment and spread it as 600 00:40:52.079 --> 00:40:54.239 fact. But I just want to confirm here that I have no idea if 601 00:40:54.280 --> 00:40:58.960 this story about Penny getting the sports car is true. I've never seen this 602 00:40:59.480 --> 00:41:02.960 verify by any credible source, and I will go out on a limb and 603 00:41:04.119 --> 00:41:07.760 say if she was involved, and that's a big if, Like we don't 604 00:41:07.800 --> 00:41:12.119 know one hundred percent here, and I haven't heard the rest of the story 605 00:41:12.159 --> 00:41:15.159 and what this new information is. But if you want to get rid of 606 00:41:15.199 --> 00:41:20.480 a child because three children are too much of a burden, you're not going 607 00:41:20.519 --> 00:41:23.280 to pick your oldest child, who takes on a motherly role and does a 608 00:41:23.320 --> 00:41:28.000 lot of the work for you, unless it's for some type of monetary gain. 609 00:41:28.280 --> 00:41:30.159 You would pick the youngest because they would be the most of a burden. 610 00:41:30.360 --> 00:41:34.360 That would at least be my thought process. What would you think, 611 00:41:34.800 --> 00:41:36.880 Yeah, I've got the same thing. I mean, even though I have 612 00:41:37.000 --> 00:41:39.480 my suspicions about Penny, I do find it unusual that if she had too 613 00:41:39.519 --> 00:41:44.320 many children that she would give away the oldest one who has helped her out 614 00:41:44.360 --> 00:41:46.639 so much around the house and become the mother figure and is also going to 615 00:41:46.719 --> 00:41:51.320 have a memory of her previous life, because theoretically, if she decided to 616 00:41:51.400 --> 00:41:53.840 give away Wendy, she's still only five years old, so if she goes 617 00:41:53.920 --> 00:41:59.000 off as someone else, she could forget her identity and lose all memories of 618 00:41:59.039 --> 00:42:02.360 her family. So it just seems weird unless she encountered someone who had a 619 00:42:02.440 --> 00:42:07.719 special interest in Antonette and then decided I'm going to give her away because that's 620 00:42:07.719 --> 00:42:10.760 the only way i can make money and relieve myself of a burden. I 621 00:42:10.840 --> 00:42:15.920 mean, maybe she knew somebody that was like, this is the age group 622 00:42:15.000 --> 00:42:19.559 that I like, right, prepubescent, but not a five year old. 623 00:42:20.079 --> 00:42:23.280 And I'm just speculating here. This is just an idea, but it just 624 00:42:23.480 --> 00:42:27.719 seems like such an odd thing to give away a child who will be the 625 00:42:27.800 --> 00:42:30.960 first out of the home, so you will have to provide the least amount 626 00:42:30.000 --> 00:42:34.519 of support for her. Right because she's nine, she'll be out of the 627 00:42:34.559 --> 00:42:37.559 house in nine years in theory, and so she'll be out. But a 628 00:42:37.599 --> 00:42:40.760 five year old, you're going to have many more years of support, and 629 00:42:40.920 --> 00:42:45.119 you have to do so much more for a five year old, especially in 630 00:42:45.199 --> 00:42:51.480 a situation where you have your eldest daughter who's basically taken on the mom role 631 00:42:51.760 --> 00:42:55.199 when you're out working or drinking or whatever she was doing. So it just 632 00:42:55.320 --> 00:43:00.280 seems very strange that she would be the one to get rid of if you 633 00:43:00.400 --> 00:43:02.599 felt like you had too many kids. I just think logically, you get 634 00:43:02.679 --> 00:43:07.320 rid of the child who is the most work and that's typically the youngest. 635 00:43:07.880 --> 00:43:10.559 And to expand upon that point, Antonette was described as being very headstrong and 636 00:43:10.679 --> 00:43:15.199 mature for her age. So if that is actually her making the nine one 637 00:43:15.320 --> 00:43:17.800 one call, that would kind of fit with her personality that even if she's 638 00:43:17.840 --> 00:43:22.760 being held captive by someone, she's probably smart enough to say, if I 639 00:43:22.840 --> 00:43:24.639 say the right things, he might give me some freedom to wander around the 640 00:43:24.719 --> 00:43:29.199 house and I'll use this as an opportunity to call the police. And once 641 00:43:29.239 --> 00:43:31.880 Again, that's a reason why it doesn't seem logical to give away a nine 642 00:43:31.960 --> 00:43:37.440 year old child unless the person who abducted her specifically wanted her. And we're 643 00:43:37.480 --> 00:43:40.400 going to talk about this later on, but there has been a suspect who 644 00:43:40.440 --> 00:43:45.639 popped up on the radar who may have had an interest in Antonette. Well, 645 00:43:45.679 --> 00:43:47.840 before I talk about that part, I wanted to mention that in twenty 646 00:43:49.119 --> 00:43:53.880 sixteen, the Albuquerque Journal decided to run a thirtieth anniversary article of Antonette's disappearance, 647 00:43:54.320 --> 00:43:58.559 and Wendy decided to speak about the case for the first time, I 648 00:43:58.679 --> 00:44:02.119 believe the first time she had been interviewed since the Unsolved Mystery segment back in 649 00:44:02.280 --> 00:44:07.760 nineteen ninety two, and Wendy revealed that she had also led a very rough 650 00:44:07.880 --> 00:44:12.679 life with issues with substance abuse with drugs and alcohol, and like her mother, 651 00:44:12.840 --> 00:44:16.119 she also had been institutionalized for some point. She even said as she 652 00:44:16.280 --> 00:44:20.800 was growing up that her and Penny would become so bereaved about what happened to 653 00:44:20.840 --> 00:44:24.400 Antonette that they would actually drink together or get high together in order to numb 654 00:44:24.519 --> 00:44:29.400 the pain, because her disappearance was just causing so much grief for the family. 655 00:44:30.280 --> 00:44:32.239 By this point, Wendy had had a total of five children, and 656 00:44:32.320 --> 00:44:37.400 there were times where the children were actually taken away from her by the state, 657 00:44:37.840 --> 00:44:40.840 and she also got involved with criminal activity where and she was affiliated with 658 00:44:40.880 --> 00:44:45.400 a gang at some point. But by twenty sixteen, she said she had 659 00:44:45.480 --> 00:44:49.079 finally cleaned her life up. She was letam in California with her husband and 660 00:44:49.239 --> 00:44:52.920 her children. She had reconciled with them, and she finally spoke about the 661 00:44:53.000 --> 00:44:58.079 case and how it led her down such a self destructive lifestyle that she finally 662 00:44:58.199 --> 00:45:02.519 checked herself into rehab and finally reconnected with her kids and was now living a 663 00:45:02.559 --> 00:45:07.559 happy life. But she still wanted to find out what happened to her sister. 664 00:45:07.119 --> 00:45:09.840 But of course she said that after all this time, she didn't have 665 00:45:10.000 --> 00:45:14.960 any real insight of what happened. She was now saying that she didn't really 666 00:45:15.039 --> 00:45:17.920 believe that the Uncle Joe knock actually happened. She was kind of vague about 667 00:45:17.960 --> 00:45:21.920 how she said it. She didn't really say that it didn't happen. She 668 00:45:22.119 --> 00:45:24.639 just says that maybe it wasn't my uncle Joe who showed up at the house 669 00:45:24.760 --> 00:45:29.599 that night. But her most interesting comment is that she said she was now 670 00:45:29.719 --> 00:45:32.719 as strange from her other sister, Sadie, who had not talked about the 671 00:45:32.800 --> 00:45:36.239 case in many, many years. I don't think she had gone on the 672 00:45:36.280 --> 00:45:39.119 record since nineteen eighty six. And as we're going to talk about momentarily, 673 00:45:39.559 --> 00:45:44.239 Sadie has recently come out with some new insights which will cause you to look 674 00:45:44.280 --> 00:45:47.239 at the case in a different light. I was just going to say, 675 00:45:47.800 --> 00:45:52.440 I really want to hear what Sadie has to say. She was the middle 676 00:45:52.559 --> 00:45:54.559 child, right, so she would have a little more insight, and she 677 00:45:54.719 --> 00:45:59.480 was the one who had a story right from the jump. So I would 678 00:46:00.039 --> 00:46:04.199 give a little more veracity to the statements of Sadie than that of Wendy, 679 00:46:04.320 --> 00:46:07.559 just because of the age different. Sadie was seven, Wendy was five. 680 00:46:07.119 --> 00:46:12.000 Your recollection of things at the age of five is kind of murky at best, 681 00:46:12.639 --> 00:46:15.199 but it gets a little more solid, I think by the age of 682 00:46:15.280 --> 00:46:19.480 seven. So I'm really interested to hear what she has to say and why 683 00:46:19.840 --> 00:46:22.960 the two of them are strange. Well, I still don't know why they 684 00:46:22.000 --> 00:46:25.679 were estranged. I get the feeling they might have different outlooks on what they 685 00:46:25.719 --> 00:46:30.800 believe happened to Antonette, and as Sadie has recently been interviewed, but I 686 00:46:30.880 --> 00:46:34.519 still have no idea if she's reconciled with Wendy. But I can kind of 687 00:46:34.599 --> 00:46:38.039 understand because Wendy's fell into substance abuse issues in criminal activity, and as far 688 00:46:38.079 --> 00:46:42.119 as I know, Sadie has stayed away from that. But I get the 689 00:46:42.199 --> 00:46:45.920 sense that Wendy and Penny we're like getting into drugs and alcohol to deal with 690 00:46:46.000 --> 00:46:51.000 the grief of losing Antonette, whereas Sadie wanted to handle things differently, and 691 00:46:51.079 --> 00:46:54.239 that's probably why she became a strange from her family. This new information that 692 00:46:54.360 --> 00:46:59.440 came out I mentioned in the intro. They launched a new YouTube series called 693 00:46:59.519 --> 00:47:05.119 Disappear Into Darkness, which had a two part series about Antonette Kaidito's disappearance, 694 00:47:05.519 --> 00:47:08.960 and it was hosted by a journalist named Crystal Gutierrez, who finally got some 695 00:47:09.119 --> 00:47:13.960 access to some files from the FBI, because, like I mentioned, during 696 00:47:14.000 --> 00:47:17.880 the mid nineteen nineties, they did an interview with Penny where she supposedly failed 697 00:47:17.880 --> 00:47:22.480 a polygraph and they did an in depth exploration into her story. But this 698 00:47:22.840 --> 00:47:28.320 investigation, none of the results were released publicly until this very moment, and 699 00:47:28.719 --> 00:47:32.320 most importantly, Crystal Gautierrez actually tracked down Sadie and got an interview with her, 700 00:47:32.599 --> 00:47:36.440 and she agreed to go on the record for the first time and tell 701 00:47:36.519 --> 00:47:39.079 a different version of events that we've heard for the past thirty seven years. 702 00:47:40.480 --> 00:47:46.360 Wow, that is pretty insane to go that long and to be radio silent. 703 00:47:46.679 --> 00:47:51.639 There's a variety of reasons, and I can never judge a family member, 704 00:47:51.800 --> 00:47:55.239 especially a sibling who was a young child and incredibly traumatized from that. 705 00:47:55.679 --> 00:47:59.960 But to find that moment and to find that strength to go I want to 706 00:48:00.159 --> 00:48:05.000 tell my story, that is so powerful exactly, And some of the stuff 707 00:48:05.000 --> 00:48:07.960 that Sadie says here is pretty shocking and it makes you wonder, like why 708 00:48:08.039 --> 00:48:10.760 she never mentioned it earlier. But I guess she was just dealing with so 709 00:48:10.880 --> 00:48:15.199 much grief that she just did not feel comfortable going on the record about this 710 00:48:15.360 --> 00:48:19.000 and making it public. So I think this is about a good point to 711 00:48:19.119 --> 00:48:22.719 end Part one. So join us next week for Part two as we continue 712 00:48:22.760 --> 00:48:27.519 to discuss the unsolved disappearance of Antonette Kayadito, Robin, do you want to 713 00:48:27.519 --> 00:48:30.840 tell us a little bit about the trail went Cold Patreon? Yes, the 714 00:48:30.880 --> 00:48:34.280 Trail Cold Patreon has been around for three years now, and we offer the 715 00:48:34.480 --> 00:48:39.079 standard bonus features like early ad free episodes, and I also send out stickers 716 00:48:39.159 --> 00:48:44.360 and sign thank you cards to anyone who signs up with us on Patreon if 717 00:48:44.400 --> 00:48:49.599 you join our five dollar tier Tier two. We also offer monthly bonus episodes 718 00:48:49.679 --> 00:48:53.039 in which I talk about cases which are not featured on the Trail went Cold's 719 00:48:53.079 --> 00:48:58.239 original feed, so they're exclusive to Patreon and if you join our highest tier 720 00:48:58.320 --> 00:49:01.199 tier free the ten dollar tier. One of the features we offer is a 721 00:49:01.559 --> 00:49:07.719 audio commentary track over classic episodes of Unsaw Mysteries, where you can download an 722 00:49:07.719 --> 00:49:12.920 audio file and then boot up the original Unsaw Mysteries episode on Amazon Prime or 723 00:49:12.960 --> 00:49:16.280 YouTube and play it with my audio commentary playing in the background, where I 724 00:49:16.400 --> 00:49:22.440 just provide trivia and factoids about the cases featured in this episode. And incidentally, 725 00:49:22.519 --> 00:49:25.480 the very first episode that I did a commentary track over was the episode 726 00:49:25.519 --> 00:49:30.440 featuring this case. So if you want to download a commentary track in which 727 00:49:30.480 --> 00:49:35.039 I make more smartass remarks about Jewel Kaylor than be sure to join Tier three. 728 00:49:35.400 --> 00:49:37.679 So I want to let you know a little bit about the Jewels and 729 00:49:37.719 --> 00:49:40.960 Ashley Patreons. So there's early ad free episodes of The Path Went Chili. 730 00:49:42.400 --> 00:49:45.639 We've got our Path Went Chili minis, which are always over an hour, 731 00:49:45.760 --> 00:49:47.559 so they're not very mini, but they're just too short to turn into a 732 00:49:47.679 --> 00:49:52.320 series, and we're really enjoying doing those, so we hope you'll check out 733 00:49:52.360 --> 00:49:55.079 those patreons will link them in the show notes. So I want to thank 734 00:49:55.119 --> 00:49:59.159 you all for listening, and any chance you have to share us on social 735 00:49:59.280 --> 00:50:01.800 media with a end or to rate and review is greatly appreciate it. You 736 00:50:01.840 --> 00:50:06.519 can email us at the Pathwin Chili at gmail dot com. You can reach 737 00:50:06.639 --> 00:50:09.039 us on Twitter at the Pathwin. So until next time, be sure to 738 00:50:09.079 --> 00:50:14.639 bundle up because cold trails and Chili pass call for warm clothing. Music by 739 00:50:14.719 --> 00:50:16.280 Paul Rich from the podcast Cold Callers Comedy