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Coors Brewing Company, Golden Colorado. Hi Blue Wire 11 00:00:43,079 --> 00:00:46,759 Listeners. I'm Greg Olsen. I'm excited to partner with Blue Wire to bring 12 00:00:46,759 --> 00:00:51,159 you te one, a podcast where I interview the tight ends who have revolutionized 13 00:00:51,159 --> 00:00:56,399 the position. Listen in as I have raw, in depth conversations with the 14 00:00:56,439 --> 00:01:00,880 all time greats Night Shannon Sharp, Tony Gonzalez, Travis Kelsey, and George 15 00:01:00,960 --> 00:01:04,000 Kittle. We'll explore had the tight end position has changed over the last sixty 16 00:01:04,079 --> 00:01:08,040 years and what it takes to be the very best. Subscribe to TE one 17 00:01:08,239 --> 00:01:26,879 from Blue Wire Studios today, so you're ready for the August premiere. Hello 18 00:01:26,959 --> 00:01:30,159 Hardwood Knox family. If you're confused because it's a different voice doing the intro, 19 00:01:30,280 --> 00:01:34,640 it's me Adam frommel here with my first our second episode really in a 20 00:01:36,239 --> 00:01:38,879 new co host capacity, which is a throwback to old times. I'm joined 21 00:01:38,920 --> 00:01:42,799 as always by Dan Favali, the longtime co host, and we are continuing 22 00:01:42,959 --> 00:01:48,480 our series where we're looking back at the last decade of NBA basketball for each 23 00:01:48,519 --> 00:01:52,560 franchise and ranking the top ten players. Before we get started, a shout 24 00:01:52,560 --> 00:01:56,319 out, as always to our sponsor bet Online dot Ag. You'll hear from 25 00:01:56,359 --> 00:01:57,560 them later in the episode. But before we get there, we have to 26 00:01:57,599 --> 00:02:00,359 ask Dan, how are you doing? Oh man, it feels weird to 27 00:02:00,400 --> 00:02:02,480 be on this end of it. I know it's strange, isn't it. 28 00:02:02,560 --> 00:02:06,920 I like that you called this a new throwback. So this is your second 29 00:02:06,920 --> 00:02:10,599 episode and official capacity of your second go round. Because we recorded I think 30 00:02:10,599 --> 00:02:13,960 you were on for the first hundred. I don't know. We're closing on 31 00:02:13,960 --> 00:02:16,520 a four hundred episodes. By the way, that's remarkable. Yeah, it's 32 00:02:16,599 --> 00:02:22,039 it's still It's comes so long since our our YouTube days of hoping for twenty 33 00:02:22,080 --> 00:02:27,080 listeners and rambling about the latest trades and how it impacted teams that were entirely 34 00:02:27,159 --> 00:02:30,599 unrelated to those teams involved in trades. Hopefully we'll get to those twenty listeners 35 00:02:30,639 --> 00:02:35,120 one day, though, we're still we're still striving. I am doing fantastic, 36 00:02:35,199 --> 00:02:38,080 though. How are you doing? I'm doing pretty well, but you're 37 00:02:38,159 --> 00:02:42,319 copping out on the answer there. Why's that? I feel like I always 38 00:02:42,319 --> 00:02:45,800 try to like throw it to some interesting story or weird thing happening in my 39 00:02:45,840 --> 00:02:47,039 life, and I need you to do the same here. Now that we've 40 00:02:47,039 --> 00:02:51,240 switched goals, I can totally gripe about something that is. You were just 41 00:02:51,280 --> 00:02:53,919 complaining about acorns, like, that's pretty interesting. I'm pretty sure that squirrels 42 00:02:53,919 --> 00:02:59,840 are attacking the office slash shoe closet slash Jim. It's like home gym that 43 00:02:59,840 --> 00:03:01,159 I'm in right now, and that's pretty much what I think is happening. 44 00:03:01,439 --> 00:03:04,840 So that is my welcome play. If you hear pelting in the background, 45 00:03:05,879 --> 00:03:07,360 it's the squirrels. They're coming after me, and I have no idea what 46 00:03:07,439 --> 00:03:12,080 I did to them, because egcords shouldn't be falling in the middle of July. 47 00:03:12,719 --> 00:03:15,159 I mean, look, we already have dogs barking every once in a 48 00:03:15,159 --> 00:03:16,479 while. Shout out to Wade and thor, so we might as well have 49 00:03:16,520 --> 00:03:21,120 squirrels make their appearance on the podcast as well. Yeah, your dogs are 50 00:03:21,120 --> 00:03:24,520 a little bit quieter than mine. Shout out. I have one of them 51 00:03:24,599 --> 00:03:28,199 laying right next to me as we're recording. So who knows what's going to 52 00:03:28,280 --> 00:03:30,000 happen. I have Wade, who do you have? I have Alder? 53 00:03:30,120 --> 00:03:32,280 All right, we'll see if either one of them decides to make a guest 54 00:03:32,280 --> 00:03:36,520 appearance on the podcast. If anyone wants to make bets, place them now. 55 00:03:38,400 --> 00:03:43,400 So Nick's basketball, it's going to be moving on. It's going to 56 00:03:43,479 --> 00:03:47,159 be a rough one this uh. I think the only appropriate way to start 57 00:03:47,319 --> 00:03:52,520 is with the joke ballot that we deleted. And just to remind everyone of 58 00:03:52,560 --> 00:03:57,919 the process, these composite rankings that we're going over are based on three different 59 00:03:57,960 --> 00:04:01,319 segments of the voting. We have the fan vote, which has been tabulated 60 00:04:01,360 --> 00:04:04,360 into into one set of top tens. We have my ballot, We have 61 00:04:04,439 --> 00:04:09,719 dance, and we combine those to look at the composite rankings, and sometimes 62 00:04:09,759 --> 00:04:15,439 we have to throw out one obviously joking ballot that happened a little more often 63 00:04:15,840 --> 00:04:18,279 for New York, which shocker, I don't think should be particularly surprising. 64 00:04:18,319 --> 00:04:23,160 We had one ballot I won't say who it came from, even though I 65 00:04:23,240 --> 00:04:29,120 know who had Frank Ntilakina in all ten spots. We had another I don't 66 00:04:29,120 --> 00:04:31,480 know who this one came from, who had Alan Houston in all ten spots. 67 00:04:32,040 --> 00:04:35,199 And then we had one I'm glad to believe that it was Alan Houston, 68 00:04:35,319 --> 00:04:38,920 by the way, or some could be here too, fourth related to 69 00:04:38,920 --> 00:04:43,639 Alan Houston, it could be. And then we had one that had and 70 00:04:43,800 --> 00:04:46,839 I the only way to present this is just to read through their ballot. 71 00:04:46,240 --> 00:04:51,920 In first place, we had Zion Williamson, second, Kyrie Irving third, 72 00:04:53,240 --> 00:04:59,000 Kevin Durant fourth. This ballot fifth is totally a joke. Six, but 73 00:04:59,079 --> 00:05:03,279 I laughed at the seventh. Jimmy Butler vote eighth for the Lakers. Ninth, 74 00:05:03,639 --> 00:05:06,600 So throw this out. Tenth, but I thought it would create a 75 00:05:06,680 --> 00:05:11,160 nice conversation about the time when Knicks fans were asking if these three guys could 76 00:05:11,160 --> 00:05:14,920 play together, and that was just like we got We both got a huge 77 00:05:14,959 --> 00:05:17,920 kick out of that because that's like the perfect way to summarize this last decade 78 00:05:17,920 --> 00:05:20,839 of Knicks basketball, where it's like, we're gonna go get these stars. 79 00:05:20,839 --> 00:05:27,600 Oh wait where the Knicks? No, we're not. Yeah, that has 80 00:05:27,639 --> 00:05:30,560 been my favorite ballot today. You read it. It was one that came 81 00:05:30,560 --> 00:05:32,920 in early. We were talking about it before we did the Pelicans podcast. 82 00:05:33,160 --> 00:05:39,639 Just absolutely spectacular and it's wild to think but fast forward about eleven months and 83 00:05:39,720 --> 00:05:43,160 everyone sort of want maybe maybe only ten or rewind ten months, excuse me, 84 00:05:43,759 --> 00:05:46,480 because we knew how the draft lottery had shaken out by some point, 85 00:05:46,680 --> 00:05:49,480 but that was the actual question, or was it. Are the Knicks going 86 00:05:49,519 --> 00:05:53,480 to use their their draft pick, if it's Ion Willington's, to trade for 87 00:05:53,560 --> 00:05:57,360 Anthony Davis that he could play with Kevin Durant and Kyrie Irving. And then 88 00:05:57,360 --> 00:06:00,959 you just look back. They signed Julie this Randall, they signed Taj Gibson, 89 00:06:01,000 --> 00:06:04,639 they signed Boffy Portis, they signed Elvid Peyton, Wayne Ellington. It 90 00:06:04,800 --> 00:06:11,240 was it was very it was a very Knicks type of progress progression there. 91 00:06:11,399 --> 00:06:15,360 And so look, I think some fans are probably tired Knicks fans anyway of 92 00:06:15,399 --> 00:06:21,120 the Knicks being dumped on, they just deserve it so hard and so relentlessly 93 00:06:21,199 --> 00:06:25,759 that I just can't make any apologies for it. Look, sometimes when you 94 00:06:25,800 --> 00:06:30,560 strike out in free agency, you just have to power forward. Wow how 95 00:06:30,560 --> 00:06:32,879 long. I'm really proud of that. On the spot, I was really 96 00:06:32,879 --> 00:06:36,040 proud of that. I'll be sure to put that in the promo tweet. 97 00:06:36,680 --> 00:06:41,240 The one nice thing we can say, though, and we won't get there 98 00:06:41,279 --> 00:06:45,160 immediately, but the top like five five point five, as we put it 99 00:06:45,240 --> 00:06:47,000 at the beginning of the podcast, it's not so bad, Like it's not 100 00:06:47,160 --> 00:06:53,199 terrible. Yeah, it's it's not I mean, there was definitely a unanimous 101 00:06:53,279 --> 00:06:59,000 number one and some prominent names just behind him. But the back end where 102 00:06:59,000 --> 00:07:02,680 we're starting, it's a little rough. So we had thirteen people appear in 103 00:07:03,120 --> 00:07:08,839 one of the three top tens. Three of them obviously just missed the cut 104 00:07:08,920 --> 00:07:12,680 because we're only focusing on ten players. But those three are Amans Chumpert, 105 00:07:13,000 --> 00:07:15,439 who finished tenth for the fans, kylo Quinn, who was tenth on my 106 00:07:15,519 --> 00:07:19,920 ballot, and Danilo Gallinari, who was tenth on yours. I think this 107 00:07:20,000 --> 00:07:25,160 sort of highlights Danilo Gallinari for me, at least how I approached this, 108 00:07:25,199 --> 00:07:29,079 particularly towards the bottom, where I wasn't really concerned about theirness as much as 109 00:07:29,120 --> 00:07:32,079 I was impact or the significance of their tenure, because you know, I'm 110 00:07:32,079 --> 00:07:36,720 not going to cry about leaving Tim Hardaway Junior off because he had two different 111 00:07:36,720 --> 00:07:39,959 stints with the team, or I'm not gonna you know, Lance Thomas as 112 00:07:40,000 --> 00:07:42,759 someone else that I consider ultantly booted, and I went with someone with a 113 00:07:42,800 --> 00:07:46,279 smaller sample. Danilo Gallinari, though absolutely belongs in the top ten. I 114 00:07:46,279 --> 00:07:51,160 am sorry, played in more games than a Jeremy Lynded this decade. He 115 00:07:51,279 --> 00:07:56,480 was the centerpiece of that Carmelo Anthy trade in which the Knicks gave up way, 116 00:07:56,519 --> 00:08:00,160 way too much. I'm probably just bullish because I was bullish on him 117 00:08:00,160 --> 00:08:03,279 at the time and looking at what he turned into, which was a fringe 118 00:08:03,279 --> 00:08:07,120 All star NBA player consistently, and I know injuries of derailed a few campaigns, 119 00:08:07,160 --> 00:08:09,839 but he is someone who was just I say this a lot in this 120 00:08:09,839 --> 00:08:15,319 podcast, but he kind of straddles that line between a from scratch score but 121 00:08:15,399 --> 00:08:18,439 also this good offensive compliment. So that's why I've always enjoyed his game, 122 00:08:18,680 --> 00:08:22,959 and that was, you know, the hardest player to give up in that 123 00:08:22,040 --> 00:08:24,680 package. But if you gave it up, if it was just him and 124 00:08:24,720 --> 00:08:28,920 some other like negligible stuff for Kamla Anthony, but knowing what that trade really 125 00:08:28,959 --> 00:08:33,399 turned into and how it gutted the team, just absolutely awful deal. Still 126 00:08:33,440 --> 00:08:37,120 he was the centerpiece of it. I think he deserves some credit for, 127 00:08:37,759 --> 00:08:41,799 you know, at least headlining that package that brings back the player who's going 128 00:08:41,840 --> 00:08:46,919 to go down as fair not one of the best Knicks players of the decade 129 00:08:46,000 --> 00:08:52,320 or one of the best Knicks most impactful recognizable Knicks players ever, even though 130 00:08:52,399 --> 00:08:56,559 Kamla at They's time there wasn't too successful. So shout out to Neil Gallinari, 131 00:08:56,720 --> 00:09:01,440 one of my favorite NBA players of the era. Yeah, I think 132 00:09:01,440 --> 00:09:05,000 that's fair for me. I wanted to give credit to Kylo Quinn. I 133 00:09:05,000 --> 00:09:07,519 thought you put it well before we started recording, as we were talking about 134 00:09:07,559 --> 00:09:11,600 our ballots, like kind of a Mitchell Robinson light and that he made such 135 00:09:11,600 --> 00:09:15,879 a tremendous impact in the minutes that he did receive but consistently seemed to get 136 00:09:15,879 --> 00:09:18,519 the short stick in the rotation. So only thirteenth and minutes played for the 137 00:09:18,559 --> 00:09:22,720 decade, but still made an impact whenever he was on the court. I 138 00:09:22,720 --> 00:09:26,519 considered a lot of different guys for that ten spot. I mean Landry Fields, 139 00:09:26,519 --> 00:09:31,480 Pablo Prigioni, en As Cantor, dinilog Ga, Gallinari, Schumpert. 140 00:09:31,720 --> 00:09:33,840 There were a bunch of possible names, but I just wanted to go with 141 00:09:33,879 --> 00:09:39,039 the guy who was the most effective of those while he was in New York. 142 00:09:39,159 --> 00:09:43,759 Even if it didn't ever manifest into what we thought it could become, 143 00:09:43,960 --> 00:09:48,080 we did have Jason Kidd actually checking in at number ten, and he was 144 00:09:48,399 --> 00:09:54,120 floated solely by you. He was tied for twelfth with Frank Tilakina in the 145 00:09:54,159 --> 00:09:56,960 fan vote. I had him just outside my top ten. You had him 146 00:09:56,960 --> 00:10:01,200 at ninth, which was enough to get him play sent in our composite top 147 00:10:01,240 --> 00:10:09,440 ten. I'm gonna look except for when the Kristaps Porzingis rise was first happening 148 00:10:09,519 --> 00:10:13,759 in New York, that initial ascension from him twenty twelve twenty thirteen is the 149 00:10:13,879 --> 00:10:18,039 last time it was really just fun to watch New York Knicks basketball. They 150 00:10:18,039 --> 00:10:22,480 were good. They finished second in the Eastern Conference that season. They flamed 151 00:10:22,480 --> 00:10:26,000 out in the second round, and Jason Kidd was absolutely a part of that. 152 00:10:26,120 --> 00:10:28,360 I'm going to give you this is this is like sword of trivia, 153 00:10:28,440 --> 00:10:35,240 but not really his true shooting percentage during that twelve game playoff push. I'm 154 00:10:35,240 --> 00:10:39,200 gonna set it at thirty nine over or under under. Okay, it was 155 00:10:39,240 --> 00:10:43,480 twenty one point three. It was so he couldn't make anything, But it 156 00:10:43,519 --> 00:10:46,480 wasn't even that much better in the regular season, Like he shot like thirty 157 00:10:46,480 --> 00:10:50,279 seven percent from the field that season and what like thirty four percent from three, 158 00:10:50,720 --> 00:10:54,039 just like he was a good role player. Like I get, I 159 00:10:54,120 --> 00:10:58,039 get the nod to it being a fun era, but I didn't get thirty 160 00:10:58,039 --> 00:11:01,159 five point one percent from three, thank you very much, and forty five 161 00:11:01,240 --> 00:11:03,559 point two percent on twos. He's a legend. And then no, I 162 00:11:05,240 --> 00:11:09,120 totally agree with you just looking at the numbers, but definitely what he did 163 00:11:09,159 --> 00:11:11,399 for that locker room because it became apparent to the Nicks that Carmelo Anthony wasn't 164 00:11:11,399 --> 00:11:15,519 going to be that vocal leader. And the one thing I'll say about Melo 165 00:11:15,559 --> 00:11:18,440 though, is he's whether it's since then or just over his entire career, 166 00:11:18,480 --> 00:11:22,080 he's made a real effort to just like relate to the younger guys, and 167 00:11:22,240 --> 00:11:26,360 a lot of the players talk about how well he does in every locker room 168 00:11:26,360 --> 00:11:30,200 he's been in since there hasn't been an issue. He probably gets the way 169 00:11:30,240 --> 00:11:31,480 he left Denver, that's going to give him a bad rap. And then 170 00:11:31,519 --> 00:11:35,759 the Jeremy Lynn stuff was weird because he commented on that restricted free agent offer 171 00:11:35,759 --> 00:11:39,720 sheet and people you know he wasn't happy with Mike D'Antoni. That didn't help 172 00:11:41,279 --> 00:11:43,240 either for him, But in the years after that, it seemed like the 173 00:11:43,240 --> 00:11:46,480 young players really gravitated toward him anyway, though Jason Kidd felt like he was 174 00:11:46,519 --> 00:11:50,440 a good veteran presence for that locker room for that team, gave him some 175 00:11:50,480 --> 00:11:54,440 effort on defense, gave them sort of this playmaking equal equilibrium in the offense 176 00:11:54,440 --> 00:11:58,159 when Carmel Anthy didn't have the ball, and it was also sort of this 177 00:11:58,360 --> 00:12:01,519 like intercessor role. It wasn't just making sure everyone else was involved, but 178 00:12:01,639 --> 00:12:07,080 kind of making sure that Kromo Anthy wasn't overbearing in certain spots. He definitely 179 00:12:07,159 --> 00:12:09,879 needed to be more of an overwhelming contributor in the playoffs, is based off 180 00:12:09,879 --> 00:12:13,399 how that went, and so I think he was sort of the there are 181 00:12:13,440 --> 00:12:16,519 a lot of veterans on that team. She'd Kurt Thomas. I think Jason 182 00:12:16,600 --> 00:12:20,720 Kidd probably just epitomizes what they all stood for more than anyone else, and 183 00:12:20,759 --> 00:12:24,320 so I threw him in there. And I have zero regrets about it hashtag 184 00:12:24,440 --> 00:12:28,879 no regrets. I don't think you need to have any regrets about it. 185 00:12:28,960 --> 00:12:31,639 I just it's not the direction I was going, just because I did think 186 00:12:31,679 --> 00:12:37,840 there were people who spent more time and made more on court contributions. It's 187 00:12:37,879 --> 00:12:39,840 hard to quantify what he added to the locker room. And he did play 188 00:12:39,840 --> 00:12:43,679 for the most successful team of the decade, so there's no knocking him for 189 00:12:43,679 --> 00:12:46,279 any of that. I just I found it difficult to put him over someone 190 00:12:46,360 --> 00:12:48,879 like Tim Hardaway Junior, who is checking in at number nine on our composite 191 00:12:48,919 --> 00:12:52,639 rankings. He was number nine for the fans and number nine for me. 192 00:12:52,879 --> 00:12:54,519 I hope he just missed the cut for you since he wasn't in the top 193 00:12:54,559 --> 00:13:00,679 ten. My initial nine and ten were Tim Hardaway Junior and Land Thomas in 194 00:13:00,679 --> 00:13:03,639 that order, and then I decided to boot them for Gallo and Jason Kidd 195 00:13:03,639 --> 00:13:07,159 because I was I thought I was waiting theirness too much. Yeah, there 196 00:13:07,440 --> 00:13:13,960 are so many directions you can go with this franchise that has struggled for the 197 00:13:13,039 --> 00:13:18,200 last decade, Like it's it's tough too. It was really tough to fill 198 00:13:18,200 --> 00:13:22,240 out the back of half of this ballot in general, just because you didn't 199 00:13:22,279 --> 00:13:24,559 have any obvious inclusions, like how high do you put Jeremy Lynn, who 200 00:13:24,559 --> 00:13:28,919 were eventually going to get to just because of that briefly insanity run. How 201 00:13:28,960 --> 00:13:31,960 do you weigh Jason Kidd? How do you weigh Tim Hardaway Junior, who 202 00:13:31,480 --> 00:13:37,440 between his two stints in New York didn't really do anything of note in the 203 00:13:37,440 --> 00:13:41,120 wind column and put up a lot of shots that he probably didn't have any 204 00:13:41,120 --> 00:13:46,279 business taking, but also scored a lot of points improved. He was much 205 00:13:46,320 --> 00:13:50,519 better in that second stint by no means a star, but it did kind 206 00:13:50,519 --> 00:13:54,399 of pave the way for him to develop into what he's become with the Dallas 207 00:13:54,399 --> 00:13:58,480 Mavericks, which is a really a really impactful tertiary scorer. So, you 208 00:13:58,480 --> 00:14:03,639 know, if we're gonna give credit to Gallo for becoming the player that he 209 00:14:03,679 --> 00:14:09,159 did elsewhere, like I think that the two times that Hardaway went around in 210 00:14:09,240 --> 00:14:15,200 New York did help him grow into what he's become. Hardware knocks listeners. 211 00:14:15,200 --> 00:14:18,360 Have you ever heard of dealdash dot com. It's the best, most honest 212 00:14:18,360 --> 00:14:20,840 bidding site where you can win things you'd never expect at a price you'd never 213 00:14:20,879 --> 00:14:26,240 believe. 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D E A L d 223 00:15:03,639 --> 00:15:09,399 A s h dot fm slash knocks. You're you're not going to catch it 224 00:15:09,399 --> 00:15:13,600 any arguments from here. At the bottom of the Knicks Top ten ballot I'm 225 00:15:13,600 --> 00:15:16,519 actually just gonna instead ask you are able to take us too. When we 226 00:15:16,559 --> 00:15:20,000 have through number eight already, number number nine, we're up to number eight 227 00:15:20,039 --> 00:15:24,279 because Hardaway was number nine. Yeah, so number we actually don't have a 228 00:15:24,360 --> 00:15:28,759 number eight because there's a two way tie for number seven. So the first 229 00:15:28,759 --> 00:15:31,080 of the ones will cover. There is Raymond Felton, who was number eight 230 00:15:31,120 --> 00:15:35,840 on the fan ballot, number seven for me and number six for you. 231 00:15:35,919 --> 00:15:41,120 And every time I think about Felton and like the historical context here, I 232 00:15:41,279 --> 00:15:43,720 remember the graphic and I wish I could remember the outlet that put this out, 233 00:15:43,720 --> 00:15:46,000 but it was like the Knicks all decade team, right, and it's 234 00:15:46,039 --> 00:15:52,000 like Raymond Felton at point as like wow, that is that's bleak. And 235 00:15:52,039 --> 00:15:56,200 it's not like we don't mean to hate on Unfelton too much, but like 236 00:15:56,240 --> 00:16:02,000 that's not what you want as your your your point heard of the decade he 237 00:16:02,120 --> 00:16:04,879 had it was so they signed him in twenty eleven free agency, twenty ten 238 00:16:04,919 --> 00:16:07,519 free agency, and then they trade him at mid season and the Carmelo Anthony 239 00:16:07,559 --> 00:16:14,279 trade. He was having a good year seventeen and nine with one point eight 240 00:16:14,320 --> 00:16:17,399 steals as well. It was only shooting thirty two point eight percent on threes. 241 00:16:17,480 --> 00:16:19,360 But he was actually having a pretty good year, and so that's the 242 00:16:19,399 --> 00:16:23,399 season I remember from him. And then when he comes back for twenty twelve, 243 00:16:23,480 --> 00:16:26,879 twenty thirteen has another good year. He's thirty six percent of his threes, 244 00:16:26,919 --> 00:16:30,799 average thirteen point nine points and five point five assist per game. So 245 00:16:32,240 --> 00:16:34,399 he's relative to who the Knicks have had on their roster this decade, he 246 00:16:34,440 --> 00:16:38,039 absolutely belongs in the discussion right where he is. I think you could probably 247 00:16:38,080 --> 00:16:41,679 if he wanted to even make a case that he belongs, you know, 248 00:16:41,759 --> 00:16:47,440 at six or five, if you wanted to go that high, I think 249 00:16:47,440 --> 00:16:51,440 you could. And I think like in general, Raymond Felton throughout his career 250 00:16:51,840 --> 00:16:55,840 has seemed to get like a little bit too much yet just for having the 251 00:16:55,879 --> 00:16:59,720 facique of a bowling ball that hasn't worked out in a while. Well, 252 00:17:00,039 --> 00:17:03,759 he seems like his disposition in Portland didn't help his reputation either. It definitely 253 00:17:03,799 --> 00:17:07,799 did not, but especially but he's like smaller, so maybe like a Bacchi 254 00:17:07,880 --> 00:17:11,960 ball, that's what he looks like coming down the court, is just like 255 00:17:11,000 --> 00:17:15,319 this barreling Bacchi ball, because he could really get into defenses. He was 256 00:17:15,400 --> 00:17:19,039 just he knows how to use the heft. Though it's like it's it's similar 257 00:17:19,079 --> 00:17:22,759 to what we talked about in the past with like Nikola Yokichen Marcasol losing weight 258 00:17:22,799 --> 00:17:27,240 and we question whether they're going to be as effective. Like Felton played at 259 00:17:27,279 --> 00:17:30,559 the right weight for himself because he knew how to use the heft, like 260 00:17:30,759 --> 00:17:36,400 to clear out space to create more lanes when he backed smaller players down in 261 00:17:36,440 --> 00:17:40,519 the post, and he was a consistently steady offensive player. There's nothing wrong 262 00:17:40,559 --> 00:17:44,880 with that. You know, we've we've talked before about how not being noticed 263 00:17:44,880 --> 00:17:47,599 because you aren't making mistakes is sometimes a good thing. But he did more 264 00:17:47,640 --> 00:17:52,119 than that. He was a consistently good facilitator who never really forced the issue. 265 00:17:52,119 --> 00:17:55,200 As a scorer, he didn't turn the ball over, he knew when 266 00:17:55,240 --> 00:18:00,400 to defer to better and bigger teammates, and he just didn't do much wrong 267 00:18:00,480 --> 00:18:03,880 of note, And when we're talking about New York basketball over the last decade, 268 00:18:04,000 --> 00:18:07,720 that's a hell of an accomplishment. Yeah, and again that season in 269 00:18:07,720 --> 00:18:11,039 twenty twenty eleven, before the Mellow trade, I know it became clear they 270 00:18:11,079 --> 00:18:15,880 desperately needed someone else but it was fun like he had the good chemistry going 271 00:18:15,960 --> 00:18:22,039 with with a Maristademeyer there. And it is funny that his two most successful 272 00:18:22,079 --> 00:18:26,079 seasons of the decade came in a Knick's uniform. So you know, I 273 00:18:26,079 --> 00:18:27,839 guess you could make a case that was he maybe a little bit more valuable 274 00:18:27,880 --> 00:18:33,200 to you OKC team in twenty seventeen twenty eighteen perhaps, but his role was 275 00:18:33,279 --> 00:18:36,720 just so much smaller. So I think he's right where he belongs. Like 276 00:18:36,759 --> 00:18:38,400 I said before, he could probably make a case to stick him a little 277 00:18:38,400 --> 00:18:42,400 bit higher. Who was his comrade at number seven? Though we both thought 278 00:18:42,519 --> 00:18:45,680 he was higher than his comrade at number seven, which is Jeremy Lynn, 279 00:18:45,720 --> 00:18:51,119 who was buoyed by a fifth place finish in the fan voting, he rose. 280 00:18:51,559 --> 00:18:55,279 He actually finished in every single spot on the ballot, which is interesting. 281 00:18:55,480 --> 00:19:00,319 I'm including a first place vote, tass, but it seems a little 282 00:19:00,319 --> 00:19:04,079 excessive. I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that this is the 283 00:19:04,759 --> 00:19:10,039 lowest on the Fairness leaderboard. Anybody who's made one of our top tens has 284 00:19:10,079 --> 00:19:14,960 been because he only played nine hundred forty minutes over thirty five games for the 285 00:19:15,000 --> 00:19:18,240 Knicks, which puts him sixtieth and minutes played for the decade, and there 286 00:19:18,400 --> 00:19:23,559 is there's basically no objective case to have Jeremy Lynn in the top ten. 287 00:19:25,519 --> 00:19:30,359 But at the same time, like, how can you possibly overlook the excitement 288 00:19:30,359 --> 00:19:34,319 that he brought to Madison Square Garden when everything started clicking and for a dozen 289 00:19:34,440 --> 00:19:40,000 or so games he started playing like a full fledged superstar, just getting to 290 00:19:40,000 --> 00:19:44,519 the rim, finishing plays, knocking down step back three pointers, hitting game 291 00:19:44,519 --> 00:19:51,759 winners so coolly and calmly it all clicked. It was obviously unsustainable, it 292 00:19:51,799 --> 00:19:56,440 didn't end up leading to any playoffs success, but it was It was unforgettable, 293 00:19:56,880 --> 00:20:03,559 and in a decade where I think so many of the most memorable moments 294 00:20:03,599 --> 00:20:10,359 that have involved the Knicks have stemmed from other teams and guys like Steph Curry 295 00:20:10,440 --> 00:20:15,200 dropping massive point totals in MSG, the fact that New York had something that 296 00:20:15,359 --> 00:20:22,319 everyone could coalesce around that led to books being written about this singular experience that 297 00:20:22,359 --> 00:20:27,920 has to mean something here, absolutely needs to And so from when he from 298 00:20:27,920 --> 00:20:33,680 when he entered the rotation for good with that twenty five point game against the 299 00:20:33,680 --> 00:20:37,240 then New Jersey Nets through just his end of the year because he had the 300 00:20:37,319 --> 00:20:40,599 knee injury that cost him the tail end of the regular season and then all 301 00:20:40,640 --> 00:20:44,720 of the playoffs. He averaged eighteen point five point seven point seven assists, 302 00:20:44,720 --> 00:20:48,000 two steals, And what's funny is I just remember him being way more efficient 303 00:20:48,039 --> 00:20:52,359 than he actually was thirty two point four percent on threes. But during that 304 00:20:52,400 --> 00:20:55,240 stretch, you just had this feeling when he was shooting at that time that 305 00:20:55,279 --> 00:20:59,279 it was going to go in. And you remember some of the flashpoint moments 306 00:20:59,519 --> 00:21:02,200 of that stretch, the game against the Nets, where it was like sort 307 00:21:02,240 --> 00:21:06,440 of his coming out party. He dropped thirty eight points against Kobe and the 308 00:21:06,519 --> 00:21:08,680 Lakers and Kobe didn't even know who he was at the time. And then 309 00:21:08,799 --> 00:21:15,359 my favorite moment is the game winner he hits in Toronto, where I think 310 00:21:15,400 --> 00:21:18,200 he I'm like, I've watched it so many times that now I'm second guessing 311 00:21:18,200 --> 00:21:22,519 everything I'm about to say. But like he just the bravado that he dribbles 312 00:21:22,559 --> 00:21:26,680 up the court with and just fires like this deep three doesn't and it was 313 00:21:26,720 --> 00:21:30,279 just you knew it was going in. I think Landry Fields at the time 314 00:21:30,279 --> 00:21:33,160 even said why wouldn't it go in with the way that he's playing, So 315 00:21:33,200 --> 00:21:37,759 I have no qualms about putting him in a tie for seventh. You and 316 00:21:37,799 --> 00:21:41,079 I polled had him an eighth, I believe, and so you could even 317 00:21:41,119 --> 00:21:45,880 put him higher just because of what he meant to this decade. I think 318 00:21:45,880 --> 00:21:48,119 you could argue that stretch of basketball was the most exhilarating to be a Knicks 319 00:21:48,119 --> 00:21:53,119 fan of the decade because it was so unexpected, Even that twenty thirteen squad, 320 00:21:53,200 --> 00:21:59,640 it had expectations not so lofty as what they came out to me with 321 00:21:59,640 --> 00:22:03,599 the whole point of trading for Kamelo Anthy was that you could be in that 322 00:22:03,039 --> 00:22:07,720 position to be one of the two or three best squads in the Eastern Conference. 323 00:22:07,799 --> 00:22:11,559 So Jeremy Lynch just comes out of absolutely nowhere saves the Knick season essentially 324 00:22:11,680 --> 00:22:15,079 during that stretch, it feels like because they were just headed nowhere super quickly. 325 00:22:15,920 --> 00:22:21,039 So I wouldn't have any issues if someone wanted to throw him, you 326 00:22:21,079 --> 00:22:22,799 can't put hip number one. But if he wanted to put him like four, 327 00:22:22,920 --> 00:22:26,200 just because of what he represented, I'm totally fine with that. And 328 00:22:26,279 --> 00:22:30,240 my hot take on this issue, maybe it's not hot, is that if 329 00:22:30,279 --> 00:22:33,160 he never really starts having those injuries, he ends up being a very good 330 00:22:33,279 --> 00:22:37,480 NBA player. I would love to see an alternate universe in which he never 331 00:22:37,720 --> 00:22:41,359 suffers that initial knee injury with the Knicks, and I know he dealt with 332 00:22:41,359 --> 00:22:45,279 other stuff beforehand, but I'm just that point. What would have happened in 333 00:22:45,319 --> 00:22:47,960 the playoffs or something. No, they're not going to beat Miami. I 334 00:22:48,000 --> 00:22:51,119 totally know that, and I don't think that they would have been able to 335 00:22:51,200 --> 00:22:53,680 had time to sort of scrap together a different matchup. But he was doing 336 00:22:53,720 --> 00:22:57,960 a lot of what he was doing when Mellow and Stat were injured two during 337 00:22:57,960 --> 00:23:02,279 that stretch, and it would have been will try to see them place together. 338 00:23:03,160 --> 00:23:07,160 We never got that true opportunity because the Knicks didn't mess that offer that 339 00:23:07,240 --> 00:23:10,880 came from Houston in restricted free agency. Still, again, I have no 340 00:23:11,000 --> 00:23:12,880 qualms on anyone who wants to argue that he needs to be even higher than 341 00:23:12,920 --> 00:23:18,240 this. I mean, Jerry Lynn went from being an undrafted point guard to 342 00:23:18,440 --> 00:23:23,759 signing a free agent contract with the Golden State Warriors and playing sparingly. He 343 00:23:23,799 --> 00:23:27,400 was assigned to the G League three different times before he was waived by the 344 00:23:27,440 --> 00:23:32,039 Warriors. He signed with the Rockets, who didn't have a role for him, 345 00:23:32,039 --> 00:23:33,599 so they cut him. He signed with the Knicks, who sent him 346 00:23:33,640 --> 00:23:40,759 to the Erie BayHawks in the G League before his breakout, and within sixty 347 00:23:40,960 --> 00:23:45,400 on court minutes, it was so obvious he was doing something special enough that 348 00:23:45,720 --> 00:23:49,720 he was a scheme altering player, Like opposing coaches were legitimately figuring out, 349 00:23:49,759 --> 00:23:53,200 like do we want to play drop coverage against the pick and rolls he's going 350 00:23:53,240 --> 00:23:56,400 to throw out? Do we want to like ice him more? How do 351 00:23:56,440 --> 00:24:00,640 we stop this guy from getting to the rim all the He's a competent defender 352 00:24:00,640 --> 00:24:04,680 who's racking up steals and seems to understand where to go. It's like it 353 00:24:04,759 --> 00:24:11,960 was so out of nowhere that it feels like one of those Flashbowl memories in 354 00:24:11,079 --> 00:24:15,319 recent NBA history, not just for the Knicks, that no one who was 355 00:24:15,359 --> 00:24:18,440 watching those games is going to forget about anytime soon. Also, what I 356 00:24:18,480 --> 00:24:22,240 think people I don't know if they forget, are always underestimated about his game. 357 00:24:22,240 --> 00:24:25,799 He was really good at getting to the foul line. If you just 358 00:24:25,839 --> 00:24:30,039 sort by Knicks players who logged five hundred minutes or more this decade, he 359 00:24:30,160 --> 00:24:33,640 was fifth in free throw attempt rate and third among non bigs. The only 360 00:24:33,680 --> 00:24:38,119 two ahead of him were Daniela Gallinari number one among non bigs, just thusly 361 00:24:38,200 --> 00:24:41,759 proving my point from before even more, and Shauncy Billips was number two. 362 00:24:42,039 --> 00:24:47,599 He actually played even fewer games in New York though than Jeremy Lindd. He 363 00:24:47,640 --> 00:24:51,319 had twenty one appearances to Jeremy Linn's thirty five. Well, as we move 364 00:24:51,359 --> 00:24:55,640 forward in our rankings, we're gonna go from an underrated foul drawer to a 365 00:24:55,720 --> 00:24:59,079 guy who sends a whole lot of guys to the free throw line, and 366 00:24:59,119 --> 00:25:03,079 that is Mitchell Robins. He was seventh for the fans, he was sixth 367 00:25:03,119 --> 00:25:06,880 for me, He was seventh for you. He's been spectacular when he's on 368 00:25:06,920 --> 00:25:11,640 the floor, but both because the knicks are let's be generous here, stubborn, 369 00:25:11,279 --> 00:25:15,200 and because he can't stop fouling people. He just hasn't played enough to 370 00:25:15,799 --> 00:25:22,039 really capitalize on what seems like just this unlimited potential. Right he should be 371 00:25:22,079 --> 00:25:26,519 starting next year, and hopefully that will be the case. The on off 372 00:25:26,559 --> 00:25:32,640 splits with him defensively or just absolutely wild, and he didn't really get his 373 00:25:32,960 --> 00:25:37,640 fouling issues too under control this year. I think he went from looking at 374 00:25:37,680 --> 00:25:41,119 it right now, so he went from averaging seven point seven fouls per one 375 00:25:41,200 --> 00:25:45,680 hundred possessions to six point seven fous per one hundred possessions. I don't know 376 00:25:45,720 --> 00:25:48,880 if his demeanor on defense would change where he won't take as many chances if 377 00:25:48,880 --> 00:25:52,559 he's not coming off the bench because he'll know that he'll be playing more minutes. 378 00:25:52,559 --> 00:25:53,519 But if you're going to average, you know, he's still around five 379 00:25:53,559 --> 00:25:56,359 fous p thirty six minutes. It's going to be tough to carve out a 380 00:25:56,480 --> 00:26:00,519 starting role in that situation. You'll at LEAs be in foul trouble early if 381 00:26:00,559 --> 00:26:04,119 you're not gonna and then you'll of course have those just too many foul outs. 382 00:26:04,119 --> 00:26:07,759 But I like what I do see from him overall on defense, and 383 00:26:07,759 --> 00:26:11,440 it does feel like he's going to be one of those No, I don't 384 00:26:11,480 --> 00:26:15,119 expect him to start shooting threes like we've seen in those in those videos, 385 00:26:15,160 --> 00:26:18,039 but I do expect it to be one of those non shooting bigs who isn't 386 00:26:18,799 --> 00:26:22,200 able to be run off the floor, sort of like you know, we 387 00:26:22,240 --> 00:26:25,519 saw the extreme with Rudy Gobert in Houston, and I'm not I know that's 388 00:26:25,519 --> 00:26:29,200 the popular comparison. I don't think Robinson will ever be on the same tier 389 00:26:29,440 --> 00:26:33,359 as Colbert, but where you can pull Rudy Gobert outside the paint and he's 390 00:26:33,400 --> 00:26:37,119 not completely a deer in headlights, and with Mitchell Robinson, he has the 391 00:26:37,200 --> 00:26:41,119 length to kind of leave space between he and guys that are going to try 392 00:26:41,160 --> 00:26:42,799 and take jumpers on him. But he can also move really well on the 393 00:26:42,799 --> 00:26:45,680 perimeter too, And so you'd just bake in a couple more years of experience. 394 00:26:45,680 --> 00:26:51,599 We maybe are talking about one of the more impactful defenders in the NBA. 395 00:26:51,680 --> 00:26:55,440 And he was tough to place because he's only two seasons into his career, 396 00:26:55,759 --> 00:26:57,000 hasn't really played that much, should have played more. But he also 397 00:26:57,119 --> 00:27:00,480 was probably the Knicks' best prospect at this point. And I mean that with 398 00:27:00,480 --> 00:27:03,720 all due respect to the RJ. Barrett, And that's you know, to 399 00:27:03,759 --> 00:27:07,160 say you're the best prospect of the mixed ranchise. It's not exactly like a 400 00:27:07,240 --> 00:27:11,440 small feet to accomplish. And so I could totally get I could. I 401 00:27:11,599 --> 00:27:15,079 thought about putting him as high as five is where I'm getting it. I'm 402 00:27:15,079 --> 00:27:19,119 actually buying into his offensive upside a little more than you are. I believe 403 00:27:19,160 --> 00:27:22,160 these workout videos that we're seeing, and granted, like we have to take 404 00:27:22,200 --> 00:27:27,119 anything that happens in these practice settings with a massive heaping of salt, but 405 00:27:27,279 --> 00:27:32,880 like his ball handling skills are kind of convincing, just the fact that he 406 00:27:33,039 --> 00:27:36,160 is able to break down players from the perimeter. I'm not sure he's ever 407 00:27:36,200 --> 00:27:40,319 going to develop into a three point shooter or even a long too shooter. 408 00:27:41,480 --> 00:27:45,759 Then again, like we've seen guys like jona' valincunis completely moreph their offensive game, 409 00:27:45,759 --> 00:27:48,880 and I feel like he could eventually fill a similar role. But even 410 00:27:48,880 --> 00:27:52,680 around the rim, he's like what DeAndre Jordan dreams of being. And that's 411 00:27:52,720 --> 00:27:56,680 no disrespect meant to DeAndre Jordan, who's been one of the best pick and 412 00:27:56,759 --> 00:28:00,079 roll finishers in the game for a while. But Robinson's at the leticism is 413 00:28:00,119 --> 00:28:06,599 just off the charts, and he just he seems to have that in eight 414 00:28:06,720 --> 00:28:11,400 knack for angles around the basket, even when he isn't able to just hit 415 00:28:11,440 --> 00:28:14,559 hand to iron and throw down a dunk. Like seventy four point two percent 416 00:28:14,599 --> 00:28:18,359 from the field is not easy to do, even if it's only on five 417 00:28:18,359 --> 00:28:22,200 point six shots per game that are all coming from close proximity to the basket. 418 00:28:22,799 --> 00:28:27,400 Generating those looks and being able to capitalize them capitalize on them is difficult, 419 00:28:27,599 --> 00:28:33,000 and that alone draws so much defensive attention that I think it's going to 420 00:28:33,319 --> 00:28:37,559 make it easier for him to develop the other skills that haven't been there yet. 421 00:28:37,200 --> 00:28:41,359 The only thing I'll say for him offensively is I do wonder a question 422 00:28:41,400 --> 00:28:45,440 whether he can expand his range when the primary indicator for looking at free throw 423 00:28:45,519 --> 00:28:48,920 percentage, he went from shooting sixty percent as a rookie to fifty six point 424 00:28:48,960 --> 00:28:52,240 eight percent as a sophomore, and so that's going to be something that needs 425 00:28:52,279 --> 00:28:56,559 to be monitored moving forward, because especially because you don't expect him to all 426 00:28:56,559 --> 00:29:00,559 of a sudden have this floater or try to take his reason, so that's 427 00:29:00,559 --> 00:29:03,599 going to be the best indicator of what he can do offensively. I am 428 00:29:03,680 --> 00:29:07,880 encouraged that he's improved from that three to ten foot range, that he started 429 00:29:07,880 --> 00:29:12,160 to make more of those touch shots from slightly further distances. I think that's 430 00:29:12,160 --> 00:29:17,039 a good sign of growth for a guy who is still only twenty two years 431 00:29:17,039 --> 00:29:22,279 old and does have so much untapped potential. I just the only reason I 432 00:29:22,319 --> 00:29:26,240 really hesitate to buy into it totally is because he plays for the Knicks. 433 00:29:26,799 --> 00:29:30,240 Well there's and then also his volume from that range diminished this season too, 434 00:29:30,559 --> 00:29:33,960 right, And I don't mean that to sound like super pity or anything like. 435 00:29:33,960 --> 00:29:37,480 It's just they have not shown that they can properly develop talents. The 436 00:29:37,480 --> 00:29:41,119 ones that they have, they have tended to bury on the bench in favor 437 00:29:41,160 --> 00:29:45,519 of more established players who can try to expedite that rebuilding process, probably not 438 00:29:45,640 --> 00:29:48,839 in the most beneficial fashion, and I just I don't want that to happen 439 00:29:48,839 --> 00:29:52,720 to him. I can. I can so easily see it, especially during 440 00:29:52,200 --> 00:29:56,519 a year where free agency is going to be so weird and there are such 441 00:29:56,559 --> 00:29:59,799 limited options. I can totally see the Knicks just being like, up, 442 00:30:00,079 --> 00:30:02,960 got to sign a veteran big man for ten million dollars per year and then 443 00:30:03,000 --> 00:30:04,440 we're gonna have to play him over Robinson. Sorry, you're gonna get twenty 444 00:30:04,440 --> 00:30:07,680 two minutes a game again. Yeah. I'm very interested to see what they 445 00:30:07,759 --> 00:30:11,720 do with all those team options and non guarantees, because if you end up 446 00:30:11,720 --> 00:30:15,200 bringing back even one of TODJ. Gibson and Bobby Porters, you still have 447 00:30:15,240 --> 00:30:18,160 Julius Randall there, and he just Robinson doesn't make sense alongside any of their 448 00:30:18,720 --> 00:30:23,559 traditional power forwards. And look, the endgame here, or the expected endgame, 449 00:30:23,839 --> 00:30:26,839 is that Mitchell Robinson ends up being in a trade package for someone they 450 00:30:26,839 --> 00:30:32,759 shouldn't be trading for. That's I don't I mean, I actually think there's 451 00:30:32,759 --> 00:30:34,960 a debate as to whether they should trade for CPCH three. I don't think 452 00:30:34,960 --> 00:30:38,079 you give up any of your cornerstone prospects in that deal. And by that 453 00:30:38,160 --> 00:30:41,839 I mean Frank Nielikino and Frank Nilikina only, but I actually mean you don't 454 00:30:41,880 --> 00:30:45,519 give up Mitchell Robinson or r J Barrett in that deal. But the expectations 455 00:30:45,519 --> 00:30:48,880 would be that that's what the Knicks are eventually going to do, whether it's 456 00:30:48,880 --> 00:30:52,359 the CP three trade or another one. They do always seem to be on 457 00:30:52,400 --> 00:30:56,319 this immediate, urgent timeline that they can never hit because instant turnarounds are hard, 458 00:30:56,680 --> 00:31:00,240 which is why they're not done so frequently. And I know fans, 459 00:31:00,880 --> 00:31:03,079 certain fans, a ton of fans, whoever money you want to say, 460 00:31:03,359 --> 00:31:08,400 will point to some of the things that you know. Leon Rose has hasn't 461 00:31:08,400 --> 00:31:12,519 really said much since he was hired as a team's president, but some of 462 00:31:12,519 --> 00:31:15,480 the language where it says that Frankie a'keina is going to be this long term 463 00:31:15,480 --> 00:31:19,559 piece. I will believe everything about the Knicks following a more gradual timeline when 464 00:31:19,559 --> 00:31:23,079 I see it. There are certain franchises, like the Charlotte Hornets that we 465 00:31:23,440 --> 00:31:27,519 use the phrase the mediocrity treadmill for just like you know, they're never going 466 00:31:27,559 --> 00:31:32,359 to be bad enough to get a great draft pick, they're never good enough 467 00:31:32,400 --> 00:31:34,440 to make any noise in the playoffs, and they seem to do everything to 468 00:31:34,519 --> 00:31:40,240 continue staying on that mediocrity treadmill. The Knicks have ramped the treadmill up to 469 00:31:40,279 --> 00:31:42,759 thirty miles an hour and just try to jump on it, and that doesn't 470 00:31:42,799 --> 00:31:47,839 work. Like that is not how you use a treadmill. It can work 471 00:31:48,119 --> 00:31:51,839 like one out of every x times if you jump on and everything's perfect. 472 00:31:51,839 --> 00:31:55,920 Because yes, there are teams that do these overnight rebuilds in free agency, 473 00:31:55,960 --> 00:31:57,960 but sometimes those don't always work out. Look at the Brooklyn Nets, because 474 00:31:57,960 --> 00:32:00,920 they signed one of their players was injured, then Kyrie got injured this season 475 00:32:01,200 --> 00:32:05,519 as well. They're still going to go to the playoffs probably, but when 476 00:32:05,599 --> 00:32:07,000 was the last time one of those did work? I mean, like, 477 00:32:07,559 --> 00:32:13,519 I think the most common example is the Boston Celtics, who went from what 478 00:32:13,640 --> 00:32:15,640 twenty five wins in two thousand and six two thousand and seven to a sixty 479 00:32:15,640 --> 00:32:20,559 six win juggernaut in two thousand and seven two thousand and eight by acquiring both 480 00:32:20,640 --> 00:32:25,160 Ray Allen and Kevin Garnett over the offseason. Who is Who's the Knicks? 481 00:32:25,160 --> 00:32:30,880 Paul Pierce like that, it just doesn't work unless you have the pieces in 482 00:32:30,920 --> 00:32:34,119 place. And if you have the pieces in place, then you typically don't 483 00:32:34,160 --> 00:32:37,559 need to do the instant turnaround. I just would I would question when the 484 00:32:37,640 --> 00:32:44,720 last time anything like that has actually worked without a star incumbent right or? 485 00:32:44,839 --> 00:32:45,920 And I mean some of the teams were even good to begin with, like 486 00:32:45,920 --> 00:32:50,599 the Clippers getting Paul Georgia and Kawhi Leonard that made them instant contenders, but 487 00:32:50,720 --> 00:32:53,119 they were a playoff team before that. And it's the same thing with the 488 00:32:53,160 --> 00:32:57,200 Miami Heat. They had to win made already they weren't a great team, 489 00:32:57,240 --> 00:33:00,240 but I think the year before they signed had the Big Three come together, 490 00:33:00,279 --> 00:33:02,440 they won forty seven games. And so the Knicks are trying to go from 491 00:33:02,440 --> 00:33:07,799 like these twenty something win teams to these immediate contenders, and it's hard, 492 00:33:07,920 --> 00:33:12,319 nigh impossible to complete, and it's going to take even Lebron going to the 493 00:33:12,400 --> 00:33:15,279 Lakers didn't change the tenor of that entire franchise for a year. They had 494 00:33:15,279 --> 00:33:19,839 to wait to get Anthony Davis, so I get that perspective from you as 495 00:33:19,880 --> 00:33:22,240 well. I'd just like to apologize to the Boston Celtics. I said they 496 00:33:22,279 --> 00:33:24,920 went from twenty five to sixty six wins. It was twenty four and a 497 00:33:25,000 --> 00:33:30,279 sixty six, so their jump was even more impressive. Sports are back, 498 00:33:30,599 --> 00:33:34,440 and so are your chances to bet on your favorite teams and events. 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That's promo code blue Wire and online your online wagering experts. 508 00:34:13,320 --> 00:34:16,679 Speaking of impressive jumping, number five is JR. Smith, who was number 509 00:34:16,679 --> 00:34:20,480 five for both you and I and number six for the fans. He was 510 00:34:20,519 --> 00:34:27,639 so much more than just like this highlight generating meme generating fringe rotation player during 511 00:34:27,679 --> 00:34:30,440 his time in New York. He was legitimately a really good three and D 512 00:34:30,599 --> 00:34:35,360 guy. Yeah, and look his this come harkens back to the twenty thirteen 513 00:34:35,400 --> 00:34:37,280 season. Again, that was a sixth Man of the Year campaign, eighty 514 00:34:37,320 --> 00:34:42,000 games, all of which came off the bench, eighteen point one points, 515 00:34:42,000 --> 00:34:46,119 two point seven assists, shot thirty five point six percent from three only forty 516 00:34:46,159 --> 00:34:50,800 five point eight percent on two's. But the thing about him is that he 517 00:34:50,840 --> 00:34:52,800 was taking difficult jump shots. And I'm not saying that I'm going to praise 518 00:34:52,880 --> 00:34:55,239 him for that, but to have the type of efficiency that he did, 519 00:34:55,559 --> 00:34:59,400 it just could have been so much worse, And for him specifically, it 520 00:34:59,440 --> 00:35:02,039 has been so much worse in other seasons. I mean, Jerry Smith is 521 00:35:02,039 --> 00:35:07,559 one of those few players that is legitimately better with fourteen hands in his face. 522 00:35:07,960 --> 00:35:10,320 That's and there's probably math to back that up. Let's be honest, 523 00:35:10,360 --> 00:35:14,239 we don't have it, but there's got to be numbers to back that up. 524 00:35:14,280 --> 00:35:19,920 So he's he's definitely this enigma. But when you look at him and 525 00:35:20,320 --> 00:35:23,719 watch him, excuse me with his shot selection, but he's still he's that 526 00:35:23,800 --> 00:35:28,480 guy who can He's a role player who could get you the square one buckets, 527 00:35:28,480 --> 00:35:30,519 but he could also work off other ball dominant stars, as we saw 528 00:35:30,639 --> 00:35:34,159 with the Knicks, and we've seen it. He became less ball dominant when 529 00:35:34,199 --> 00:35:37,159 he would when he played for the for the Cleveland Cavaliers, And so I 530 00:35:37,159 --> 00:35:38,880 don't want to say that this jersey needs to be retired, but he was 531 00:35:38,920 --> 00:35:44,159 just a solid role player for the most part during his time in New York. 532 00:35:44,440 --> 00:35:46,880 And the way it came to an end during the twenty fourteen twenty fifteen 533 00:35:46,920 --> 00:35:50,400 season, like, yeah, they were clearly out on him by them, 534 00:35:50,440 --> 00:35:53,679 and he was probably having his worst season with the Knicks that you maybe you 535 00:35:53,719 --> 00:35:58,760 could make the case that twenty eleven twenty twelve was a little bit worse for 536 00:35:58,840 --> 00:36:01,920 him. But but just for the part, if you're looking for a role 537 00:36:01,960 --> 00:36:06,239 player who plays the way that he does, there's going to be higher variant 538 00:36:06,320 --> 00:36:12,039 outcomes in their roles, and I think his time in New York on the 539 00:36:12,039 --> 00:36:15,800 floor, which is overwhelmingly positive in that regard, and I think this is 540 00:36:15,840 --> 00:36:19,599 where it starts to get into territory and maybe even with Mitchell Robinson that you're 541 00:36:19,599 --> 00:36:22,239 just comfortable with where it's like, oh, okay, his name coming up 542 00:36:22,239 --> 00:36:25,400 in a decade rankings like this, that that's perfectly fine. Jared Smith has 543 00:36:25,400 --> 00:36:30,960 played fifteen NBA seasons. How many of those has his team not been better 544 00:36:30,079 --> 00:36:35,320 with him on the floor? Is this my trivia for this pod? Sure, 545 00:36:36,000 --> 00:36:44,159 I'm gonna say three that created it. That's exactly correct. Now, 546 00:36:44,159 --> 00:36:46,039 which seasons were they? That's not happening yet. Yeah, that's that's that's 547 00:36:46,079 --> 00:36:51,400 too difficult. They're his first two seasons in the league with New Orleans and 548 00:36:51,400 --> 00:36:53,920 then the twenty seventeen eighteen season with Cleveland, which was his age thirty two 549 00:36:53,960 --> 00:36:58,119 campaign. But yeah, each each of the three seasons, each of the 550 00:36:58,280 --> 00:37:00,480 four three and a half seasons that he spent with the Knicks, they were 551 00:37:00,559 --> 00:37:06,840 better with him on the floor. And that's been consistent throughout because as much 552 00:37:07,119 --> 00:37:12,599 as he gets knocked for the inexplicable decisions, forgetting what the score is in 553 00:37:12,400 --> 00:37:16,119 a key playoff moment, all those things like he tends to understand how to 554 00:37:16,159 --> 00:37:21,639 make his team better. We saw that really come to a head in twenty 555 00:37:21,639 --> 00:37:23,840 thirteen fourteen, where he's coming off that six Man of the Year season and 556 00:37:23,880 --> 00:37:27,480 all of a sudden, the Knicks are throwing him in the starting lineup and 557 00:37:27,519 --> 00:37:30,719 asking him to handle the ball less, to shoot the ball less. He 558 00:37:30,760 --> 00:37:34,639 did it. He up to his assist numbers, he dropped his turnover numbers, 559 00:37:34,679 --> 00:37:37,719 he became even more efficient from the three point arc. Just he's always 560 00:37:37,719 --> 00:37:45,079 been one of those guys who maybe we're just blinded by the athleticism and recklessness 561 00:37:45,159 --> 00:37:49,280 with which I can't use my words, and recklessness with which he plays, 562 00:37:49,760 --> 00:37:54,599 but it tends to work. Maybe tends to work. Yeah, you're actually 563 00:37:54,639 --> 00:37:59,079 right. It feels like because he has his reputation in such a wild card 564 00:37:59,599 --> 00:38:01,239 that amost feels like a hot take. But it's really not because he was 565 00:38:01,280 --> 00:38:05,719 a wild card, but I think because his highs could be so high, 566 00:38:05,719 --> 00:38:10,199 and what he could do when he no like Joe contended there either with phrasing 567 00:38:12,159 --> 00:38:15,320 because of what he could do when he was at his very best. It 568 00:38:15,360 --> 00:38:16,960 was almost worth it to go through for most of his career to kind of 569 00:38:17,000 --> 00:38:20,800 go through that roller coaster process. I think he needed to be on the 570 00:38:20,880 --> 00:38:24,480 right team, though, where that type of performance, particularly when he's older, 571 00:38:24,719 --> 00:38:28,440 that's not going to work on a rebuilding squad, but on a contender 572 00:38:28,519 --> 00:38:32,679 that has some depth and can withstand poorer performances from him. To have that 573 00:38:32,719 --> 00:38:38,320 guy who can just sort of explode it can really help you. I was 574 00:38:38,360 --> 00:38:43,039 surprised that the Fans only had j. R. Smith at sixth just because 575 00:38:43,039 --> 00:38:46,119 of the highlights and the positive memories that he did provide for that franchise. 576 00:38:46,440 --> 00:38:51,440 I think I was more surprised though, that Chris stops porzingis checked in at 577 00:38:51,480 --> 00:38:54,800 number two for the Fans, which still only got him to number four in 578 00:38:54,920 --> 00:38:58,840 the composite rankings, because you and I both had him at number four, 579 00:38:59,360 --> 00:39:06,320 just given the ACL injury and the way the exit happened. The trade that 580 00:39:06,400 --> 00:39:09,079 sent him to the Dallas Mavericks just out of the blue, you know, 581 00:39:09,119 --> 00:39:13,159 it didn't even seem like he was on the trade block. In the next 582 00:39:13,159 --> 00:39:19,840 morning, he was a member of the Mavericks. As incredible as he was 583 00:39:20,199 --> 00:39:22,880 during his three years in New York and the role that he was growing into 584 00:39:23,239 --> 00:39:30,880 as that rim protecting menace, the seven foot three, three point shooter when 585 00:39:30,920 --> 00:39:37,039 everything clicked. He was so obviously special. But just given how that exit 586 00:39:37,119 --> 00:39:40,960 took place, I was shocked that he still got enough credit to be number 587 00:39:42,000 --> 00:39:46,920 two on the fan vote. It doesn't really surprise me because of what he 588 00:39:47,079 --> 00:39:52,079 sort of represented for the franchise, just that fortune's turning prospect they really didn't 589 00:39:52,119 --> 00:39:58,599 have since Patrick Ewing at the time, because they were so embedded in the 590 00:39:58,639 --> 00:40:01,239 culture of trying to get other team his players rather than developed their own. 591 00:40:01,320 --> 00:40:07,320 He was elected into one All Star Game, but he spent three seasons there. 592 00:40:07,719 --> 00:40:09,719 But he seemed like he was, you know, particularly during his latter 593 00:40:09,760 --> 00:40:14,079 two seasons. He missed a ton of time, he had the ACL injury. 594 00:40:14,440 --> 00:40:15,360 To call him the second best player of the decade, he feels I 595 00:40:15,599 --> 00:40:20,119 consider putting him at three. To be honest with you, it does feel 596 00:40:20,119 --> 00:40:22,960 a little bit like a stretch, but I get it looking at just on 597 00:40:22,000 --> 00:40:25,960 the court. I do think, though, that you point out correctly the 598 00:40:27,000 --> 00:40:31,360 way he left. The circumstances under which he left have to be factored in 599 00:40:31,639 --> 00:40:35,239 here, and I don't even know if it was so out of the blue, 600 00:40:35,280 --> 00:40:37,840 because it was kind of this known thing in New York that he was 601 00:40:37,920 --> 00:40:42,199 unhappy or wasn't thrilled with the franchise. I don't know how much Carmelo Anthony 602 00:40:42,320 --> 00:40:45,639 Leaving actually played into that, because he really seemed to take to Mellow, 603 00:40:45,480 --> 00:40:50,199 but he didn't feel like he was being treated like a star, and they 604 00:40:50,239 --> 00:40:52,920 eventually just gave in, and the trade did seem like it came together quickly 605 00:40:52,920 --> 00:40:54,960 where they didn't pull the rest of the league for long enough because there was 606 00:40:55,000 --> 00:41:00,199 even rumors that the Knicks were considered. I think they were considered trading him. 607 00:41:00,320 --> 00:41:04,920 Wasn't around the twenty sixteen draft or the twenty seventeen draft, because he 608 00:41:05,000 --> 00:41:07,719 skipped out on his exit meeting with Phil Jackson, so I think that was 609 00:41:07,719 --> 00:41:12,599 twenty seventeen. Yeah, So just all the circumstances, they were just so 610 00:41:12,719 --> 00:41:15,800 murky, and if people factored in the rape allegations as well with him, 611 00:41:15,800 --> 00:41:17,880 I'm not going to move him lower. I'm not going to grudge that certainly 612 00:41:19,320 --> 00:41:24,119 either. But he was on the court someone who I think people who believe 613 00:41:24,159 --> 00:41:27,599 that he could win Defensive Player of the Year, and maybe I was one 614 00:41:27,639 --> 00:41:30,400 of them at a certain juncture was taking it too far, but most of 615 00:41:30,480 --> 00:41:35,639 us were those someone's honestly. But he was such a plus defender when you 616 00:41:35,639 --> 00:41:37,880 looked at what he could do, because he could move pretty well on the 617 00:41:37,920 --> 00:41:40,840 defensive end, and then he was just this more than a nuisance around the 618 00:41:40,880 --> 00:41:45,199 rim. He was just like this shot wet blanket, just absorbing a ton 619 00:41:45,239 --> 00:41:47,920 of things. And then what he could do on offense where you could see 620 00:41:49,760 --> 00:41:52,519 he's gonna be this floor space or he'll work within the spread pick and roll. 621 00:41:52,639 --> 00:41:54,599 Is there going to be more than he'll have to offer? Maybe not 622 00:41:54,639 --> 00:41:57,880 necessarily in the post, and I think we've seen that in Dallas. He 623 00:41:57,960 --> 00:42:01,039 struggled there, but to just work off the dribble. The ceiling was so 624 00:42:01,159 --> 00:42:06,199 high to where it was someone who would be worth a max extension investment, 625 00:42:06,239 --> 00:42:08,119 someone who might be one of the twenty twenty five best players in the game, 626 00:42:08,159 --> 00:42:13,920 if not better than that, as absolute pinnacle, and so that symbolic 627 00:42:14,039 --> 00:42:15,840 nature of what he represented on the court for them, I can see why 628 00:42:15,840 --> 00:42:19,800 fans would have placed him even higher. But when you just factor in, 629 00:42:20,639 --> 00:42:22,679 maybe you can't say availability just because looking at some of the other people we 630 00:42:22,760 --> 00:42:27,000 put on this list, but the circumstances under which he left, and then 631 00:42:27,000 --> 00:42:30,639 the teams with that he played for, you know, they weren't these great 632 00:42:30,679 --> 00:42:34,480 teams to begin with. I think that all matters and is all relative to 633 00:42:34,480 --> 00:42:37,400 this discussion, particularly when you're going to look at who's actually in front of 634 00:42:37,480 --> 00:42:40,360 him for us. Anyway, my biggest qualm with Porzingis's game when he was 635 00:42:40,400 --> 00:42:45,800 in New York was just that he didn't understand passing. There were so many 636 00:42:45,840 --> 00:42:50,960 possessions where he just totally commandeered the ball the entire shot clock, and then 637 00:42:51,000 --> 00:42:54,519 four stuff, a hero shot just would look off open teammates would work into 638 00:42:54,559 --> 00:43:00,280 double teams without realizing where his kickout passes work. But at the same time, 639 00:43:00,280 --> 00:43:05,599 like he also had like a little bit of Carmelo Anthony LaMarcus Aldridge to 640 00:43:05,679 --> 00:43:08,440 his game, where he was just he was a really good face up shooter 641 00:43:08,639 --> 00:43:12,840 from those long two zones, and there's value in that, you know, 642 00:43:12,880 --> 00:43:15,679 as much as we knock those long two pointers and hope the players can take 643 00:43:15,679 --> 00:43:19,719 a step behind the three point arc, which he often did. You know, 644 00:43:20,199 --> 00:43:22,000 during his three seasons in New York, he shot forty four point one 645 00:43:22,039 --> 00:43:25,760 percent between ten and sixteen feet. He shot forty one point five percent from 646 00:43:25,800 --> 00:43:29,679 beyond sixteen feet, but inside the three point arc. There's value in that 647 00:43:30,000 --> 00:43:35,119 just forcing defenses to cover that because no one was big enough to block his 648 00:43:35,199 --> 00:43:39,159 shot from those from those areas, I think that he took them too often. 649 00:43:39,320 --> 00:43:45,320 He bought into the idea of him being a high scoring threat a little 650 00:43:45,360 --> 00:43:47,920 too often, and that held him back and maybe hindered some of the development 651 00:43:47,960 --> 00:43:52,400 of his less notable teammates. But he was really good in so many areas, 652 00:43:52,440 --> 00:43:55,599 not all of which he gets credit for. I will say that I 653 00:43:55,639 --> 00:44:00,760 think if you have a team that doesn't put Derek Rose, Jokim Noah and 654 00:44:00,840 --> 00:44:06,199 Carmelo Anthony around him during his sophomore season, that he probably develops as a 655 00:44:06,280 --> 00:44:09,639 passer better and just looking at the personnel they put aroun him in general during 656 00:44:09,679 --> 00:44:15,239 his three seasons there, and then in contrast of what's happened in Dallas this 657 00:44:15,320 --> 00:44:17,360 year, he started making better reads with the ball. When you put sensible 658 00:44:17,400 --> 00:44:22,320 personnel around christophs Porzingis, it's I think he'll have room. He has the 659 00:44:22,320 --> 00:44:27,239 bandwidth to do more things than Knicks never gave him that leeway. That will 660 00:44:27,280 --> 00:44:30,280 be my one defense of him, which is fair, which is fair. 661 00:44:30,440 --> 00:44:36,000 It's also interesting how so many of the best Knicks players have been big men 662 00:44:36,400 --> 00:44:39,199 over the last decade. I say that because we've already talked about Mitchell Robinson, 663 00:44:39,360 --> 00:44:42,800 we just talked about christophs Porzingis, and I kind of want to cover 664 00:44:42,880 --> 00:44:47,679 these next two together because it's hard to separate them, not because they are 665 00:44:47,679 --> 00:44:53,199 these intertwined legacies and players, but just it was difficult to differentiate between the 666 00:44:53,239 --> 00:44:58,559 two on our ballots. And that's Tyson Chandler, who checked in at number 667 00:44:58,599 --> 00:45:00,920 three. He finished fourth for the fan he was third for both of us, 668 00:45:01,159 --> 00:45:05,639 and a Maria Staudemeier who was third for the fans and second for both 669 00:45:05,679 --> 00:45:07,519 of us, which does push him just ahead to the number two spot in 670 00:45:07,559 --> 00:45:12,880 our composite rankings. What made you put stat ahead of Tyson Chandler. I 671 00:45:12,920 --> 00:45:17,199 think the twenty ten free agency decision and then that ensuing season to where he 672 00:45:17,239 --> 00:45:21,519 had claimed the Knicks were back and they were in a sense, and just 673 00:45:21,559 --> 00:45:24,360 some of the moments he had, the thirty point game streak, the game 674 00:45:24,360 --> 00:45:29,079 winner that wasn't against the Celtics. I actually remember back when I could call 675 00:45:29,159 --> 00:45:32,320 myself a loyal Knicks fan, like pumping my fist to a point that my 676 00:45:32,320 --> 00:45:36,920 then girlfriend, like, I almost clocked her in the jaw completely on accident. 677 00:45:37,639 --> 00:45:39,079 I just remember jumping up because it was just so exciting. And I 678 00:45:39,119 --> 00:45:42,519 do think he deserves credit for that, because does Melo want to go to 679 00:45:42,559 --> 00:45:45,159 New York if Stotomyer isn't there, I honestly don't know. Maybe he still 680 00:45:45,159 --> 00:45:52,679 does, but maybe not. And so he gave the Knicks a winning timeline 681 00:45:52,679 --> 00:45:53,880 and it proved to be a flawed one, and then he deals with the 682 00:45:53,880 --> 00:45:58,719 injuries thereafter. He's also not a great fit alongside Mellow, and then it 683 00:45:58,800 --> 00:46:00,400 got to this point where they tried bringing him off the bench. They were 684 00:46:00,400 --> 00:46:05,000 trying all these different things. The game passed him by a ton as well, 685 00:46:05,039 --> 00:46:07,960 as we saw, and that happened in real time in New York. 686 00:46:07,039 --> 00:46:12,440 If he never has those injuries, maybe that slows down the devolution. But 687 00:46:12,519 --> 00:46:15,719 just given what he did on offense, the shots he lived on the type 688 00:46:15,760 --> 00:46:19,639 of shots he liked to take, he might have always been been doomed to 689 00:46:19,880 --> 00:46:22,360 a similar fate. Though he was one of the best rim running bigs at 690 00:46:22,360 --> 00:46:25,159 one point, like someone you could really just trust to devastate out of the 691 00:46:25,199 --> 00:46:29,519 pick and roll. No, he didn't have Steve Nash tossing him passes in 692 00:46:29,519 --> 00:46:30,679 New York, but could we We never really got to see a ton of 693 00:46:30,679 --> 00:46:35,239 the mellow stat pick and rolls, and that's something that in theory could have 694 00:46:35,280 --> 00:46:37,760 worked, and so I gave him number two for that. The body of 695 00:46:37,760 --> 00:46:42,559 work is also just larger, so you can count the theirness as well. 696 00:46:42,599 --> 00:46:45,239 But the significance of his decision to come to New York and Tyson Chandler probably 697 00:46:45,239 --> 00:46:49,840 could have been put lower when you're looking at his sample, but defensive player 698 00:46:49,880 --> 00:46:54,239 of the Year and just one of the better decisions that they've actually made during 699 00:46:54,280 --> 00:46:59,480 this decade was signing him for what he did for that team and then just 700 00:46:59,559 --> 00:47:02,280 another or where it's like he's he lived through. He wasn't there that long, 701 00:47:02,320 --> 00:47:07,679 but he lived through all these different versions of the Knicks, and he 702 00:47:07,239 --> 00:47:12,239 obviously didn't finish that that contract there. They flipped into Dallas in twenty fourteen. 703 00:47:12,280 --> 00:47:14,320 I think that was the last year of his deal, if I'm not 704 00:47:14,360 --> 00:47:19,840 mistaken. Yeah, it was so just I'd be curious to see if they 705 00:47:19,840 --> 00:47:22,920 had actually put like more of a winning situation type roster around him, the 706 00:47:22,920 --> 00:47:25,760 type of indent he would have been able to make, but he was sort 707 00:47:25,800 --> 00:47:30,400 of a culture setter definitely on the court. Not known for doing that as 708 00:47:30,480 --> 00:47:32,159 much I think off the court, but just on the court and what he 709 00:47:32,199 --> 00:47:36,360 could do defensively, and again winning the Defensive Player of the Year in two 710 00:47:36,679 --> 00:47:42,119 eleven two twelve is a big freaking deal. I wish that the first thing 711 00:47:43,119 --> 00:47:46,840 we thought of with Amaru Stademeyer in New York wasn't injuries, But it's like 712 00:47:46,920 --> 00:47:51,280 that, that's how it has to be, just because of the bulging disc 713 00:47:51,360 --> 00:47:54,719 in his back during the twenty eleven twelve season, punching the box containing a 714 00:47:54,760 --> 00:47:59,920 fire extinguisher and suffering a hand laceration in game two of the opening round of 715 00:48:00,079 --> 00:48:02,519 twenty twelve playoffs against the Miami Heat, all the knee trouble, all the 716 00:48:02,559 --> 00:48:07,679 back issues, and it just it contributed to a decline that was so much 717 00:48:07,719 --> 00:48:13,159 swifter than anyone could have anticipated when he signed that five year, one hundred 718 00:48:13,159 --> 00:48:16,000 million dollars deal that really could have been reasonable. It's it's so easy to 719 00:48:16,039 --> 00:48:20,800 forget that during his first season in New York twenty ten eleven, though also 720 00:48:20,840 --> 00:48:23,760 the first season in the decade that we're looking at here, he finished ninth 721 00:48:23,760 --> 00:48:31,039 and MVP voting. He was that good and then the injuries struck. So 722 00:48:31,239 --> 00:48:37,079 I really struggled with the decision to have him above Tyson Chandler because even though 723 00:48:37,360 --> 00:48:42,800 the sample is larger and he did more, we associate Tyson Chandler more with 724 00:48:42,800 --> 00:48:45,360 winning than we do with him because he, as you mentioned, he was 725 00:48:45,360 --> 00:48:50,480 a defensive Player of the Year. He made such important contributions to the most 726 00:48:50,519 --> 00:48:54,519 successful NIX team of the decade. He was there when it counted. I 727 00:48:54,599 --> 00:49:01,039 gave Stademeyer the bump just because he was obviously the more talented player and represented 728 00:49:01,079 --> 00:49:06,199 a time when the Knicks could land a marquee free agent. But it was 729 00:49:06,239 --> 00:49:09,599 it was a really tough decision. Yeah, that wasn't That was a tough 730 00:49:09,599 --> 00:49:15,119 call by any stretching look. I grappled with this sort of porzingis Chandeler, 731 00:49:15,239 --> 00:49:20,119 Statomeyer, Smith, Robinson, like this whole section. I I always knew, 732 00:49:20,119 --> 00:49:22,320 we knew who was going to be number one going in. We always 733 00:49:22,679 --> 00:49:25,960 we always knew that. But I think you could probably justify maybe with the 734 00:49:27,000 --> 00:49:30,119 exception of Smith and Robinsons, maybe it's more of the KP Channeler, Statomy 735 00:49:30,159 --> 00:49:32,079 or Trio was tough. You probably could justify any given order if you really 736 00:49:32,119 --> 00:49:36,280 wanted to. I agree with that, but yeah, I mean, Carmelo 737 00:49:36,320 --> 00:49:39,159 Anthony always had to be number one. That was the only certainty on these 738 00:49:39,199 --> 00:49:43,800 ballots, and it didn't always worked out that way. We actually had one 739 00:49:43,960 --> 00:49:47,840 two. We had four different players received first place votes, and I'm gonna 740 00:49:47,880 --> 00:49:52,039 go out on a limb and say that three of them were like pseudo joke 741 00:49:52,119 --> 00:49:55,639 ballots. One was Jeremy Lynn, one was Pablo Prigioni, and one was 742 00:49:55,679 --> 00:50:02,639 Franknin Tilakina. None of those those players really have any justification to be above 743 00:50:02,719 --> 00:50:06,559 Carmelo Anthony. I don't know, Neila Kean is on off defensive splits. 744 00:50:06,559 --> 00:50:07,679 I would just like to point out or among the bre we go again, 745 00:50:08,039 --> 00:50:12,159 over, Here we go again, Here we go again. But I mean, 746 00:50:12,480 --> 00:50:15,920 if you look at the barness factor alone, Mello has played more minutes 747 00:50:15,960 --> 00:50:19,239 over the last decade for the Knicks than any two players combined. His first 748 00:50:19,239 --> 00:50:22,679 place in fourteen, eight hundred and thirteen minutes Sadam Iron, Tim Hardaway Junior 749 00:50:23,159 --> 00:50:30,679 combined for just over fourteen thousand. That alone gets him in consideration but but 750 00:50:30,800 --> 00:50:34,960 so too does just how ridiculously good he was during his peak years. I 751 00:50:34,960 --> 00:50:39,199 mean, as talented a scorer as he was with the Denver Nuggets. He 752 00:50:39,280 --> 00:50:44,119 probably played his best basketball early in his New York career and pushed the franchise 753 00:50:44,199 --> 00:50:46,199 to heights that it hadn't seen in a while and has not seen since. 754 00:50:47,320 --> 00:50:52,039 So if you look at the Knicks top players in value over replacement player, 755 00:50:52,719 --> 00:50:58,639 he is first with twenty and then second is Tyson Chandler j R. Smith, 756 00:50:58,719 --> 00:51:02,320 Chris Stops and amri Odamyer. Sixth is Kylo Quinn. If you combine 757 00:51:02,519 --> 00:51:07,400 all of those five players together, spots two through six, you have about 758 00:51:07,559 --> 00:51:14,920 Mellow's VORP. So he basically added the same value as the Knicks's second through 759 00:51:15,039 --> 00:51:19,360 sixth best player by VORP. That's not an end all wheel by any stretch, 760 00:51:19,400 --> 00:51:22,079 but that you talk about lapsided and the thing to really look at here 761 00:51:22,519 --> 00:51:25,320 for me, because we all know what Melo was capable of with the scoring, 762 00:51:27,039 --> 00:51:29,599 there are two things that stand out. Is the matter in which he 763 00:51:29,679 --> 00:51:32,519 forced his way to New York really ended up hurting the team. It's not 764 00:51:32,639 --> 00:51:37,519 his fault that James Dolan is a buffoon, and was negotiating against himself at 765 00:51:37,559 --> 00:51:40,559 this point. He was the person who insisted on having Donnie Walsh include more 766 00:51:42,000 --> 00:51:45,920 players in there. And I fully wear that Gallinari always would have been jettison 767 00:51:45,920 --> 00:51:51,840 in that deal. I feel like he could have held a firmer stance knowing 768 00:51:52,440 --> 00:51:54,880 that he I understood that the lockout was coming and that he wanted to get 769 00:51:55,159 --> 00:51:59,079 his extension. I totally understand all that, but I feel like he probably 770 00:51:59,079 --> 00:52:00,400 if you were going to force a trade to a team like do it in 771 00:52:00,400 --> 00:52:02,599 a way that you know it's not going to gut the roster, and if 772 00:52:02,599 --> 00:52:07,440 you were more publicly made it clear that you were going to sign with the 773 00:52:07,519 --> 00:52:12,280 Knicks and free agency anyway. That's something that maybe Anthony Davis aired with during 774 00:52:12,320 --> 00:52:14,800 the Pelicans thing, is that he wasn't as open about it at the same 775 00:52:14,840 --> 00:52:16,920 time, with such common knowledge that he was only wanted to go to the 776 00:52:17,000 --> 00:52:20,719 Knicks, that this is more on the Knicks than him. So that's really 777 00:52:20,719 --> 00:52:23,199 my point there is to probably blame not probably definitely blame the Knicks more than 778 00:52:23,239 --> 00:52:27,960 Mellow. The thing that you can actually blame Mellow for is just not wanting 779 00:52:28,000 --> 00:52:30,400 to play power forward as often the Knicks wasted. The best version of Carmelo 780 00:52:30,400 --> 00:52:34,920 Anthony they ever had was actually in twenty thirteen twenty fourteen, I believe, 781 00:52:35,719 --> 00:52:42,519 and he played a majority of minutes at power forward there, so he was 782 00:52:42,599 --> 00:52:45,679 always resistant that he's resistant to it now. He's even talking about how excited 783 00:52:45,719 --> 00:52:49,000 he is to be moved back to the three with the Blazers. I'm just 784 00:52:49,320 --> 00:52:52,679 not a big fan of positions at this point anyway, and to me, 785 00:52:52,880 --> 00:52:57,159 power forward is just so similar to three at this point when you look at 786 00:52:57,159 --> 00:52:59,440 the type of personnel that plays there, it shouldn't matter. But if he 787 00:52:59,519 --> 00:53:02,239 was more willing to embrace that style, which is something that D'Antoni, would 788 00:53:02,239 --> 00:53:05,840 have gotten him too quicker. And maybe that's another talking point for this, 789 00:53:05,920 --> 00:53:08,039 is how he didn't really want to embrace Mike D'Antoni early on, and that 790 00:53:08,079 --> 00:53:13,159 actually might have been a really good coach for him. So those are the 791 00:53:13,159 --> 00:53:17,159 things that I remember. There does seem to be at least a sliver emoticom 792 00:53:17,199 --> 00:53:22,239 of squandered potential with Mellow on the Knicks, and they're both equally culpable. 793 00:53:22,320 --> 00:53:25,159 I will blame the team far more than I blame the player, because it's 794 00:53:25,199 --> 00:53:28,920 your job as the team to install the right people that will get the right 795 00:53:28,920 --> 00:53:31,320 buy in from the player and maybe not give him too much power. But 796 00:53:31,320 --> 00:53:35,880 I'm not going to sit here and you know, make you know, absolve 797 00:53:35,920 --> 00:53:37,639 Mellow of all the problems either. But I also will say that it doesn't 798 00:53:37,679 --> 00:53:42,000 seem like it never seemed like he was as much as a cancer as he 799 00:53:42,119 --> 00:53:45,519 was portrayed by by some people, because his teammates really did seem to embrace 800 00:53:45,599 --> 00:53:47,960 him, especially the younger ones later on in his tenure with the Knicks. 801 00:53:47,960 --> 00:53:51,280 And so what I would like to see if we're going to play the alternate 802 00:53:51,360 --> 00:53:54,639 universe card, is what just happens if you take you know, twenty thirteen, 803 00:53:55,639 --> 00:54:00,760 twenty twenty thirteen, twenty fourteen, melow those seasons and like, let's 804 00:54:00,760 --> 00:54:04,719 just extrapolate that are the Knicks? Do they have a quicker path back to 805 00:54:04,719 --> 00:54:07,079 the playoffs? Does something different happen? But this might just be a thing 806 00:54:07,119 --> 00:54:09,880 for his entire careers. What if he was willing to play power forward right 807 00:54:09,880 --> 00:54:14,960 away when Mike D'Antoni was still there. I just I don't have much to 808 00:54:14,960 --> 00:54:17,880 add to that, since you did such a thorough and great job covering all 809 00:54:17,920 --> 00:54:22,519 of that I just I like the symmetry that we began this this episode talking 810 00:54:22,519 --> 00:54:28,159 about the knicks unending desire to add power forwards and finished with Mellow's refusal to 811 00:54:27,800 --> 00:54:30,599 pay to play power forward. And the only other thing that I really want 812 00:54:30,639 --> 00:54:36,599 to add is to anyone who doesn't have Carmelo Anthony in first place for the 813 00:54:36,679 --> 00:54:38,559 last decade of Nick's basketball, do you know what he would probably say to 814 00:54:38,599 --> 00:54:43,079 them? Because I do, what will you say? He would probably call 815 00:54:43,119 --> 00:54:45,239 them a glazed donut face asks, one of the best tweets of all time 816 00:54:45,239 --> 00:54:50,320 by him, one of the best tweets today, still alive today December thirty 817 00:54:50,360 --> 00:54:53,159 feet twenty thirteen. Shout out to Carmel Anthony for that. That might be 818 00:54:53,199 --> 00:54:55,599 his finest moment as a Nick. And look, he had great moments as 819 00:54:55,639 --> 00:54:59,039 a Nick. That game what do you Drop against the Horns? Was that 820 00:54:59,079 --> 00:55:02,159 the sixty point game? I can't even remember what that was at that point, 821 00:55:02,199 --> 00:55:06,119 but like he was. I mean, actually, one of the other 822 00:55:06,239 --> 00:55:09,159 iconic momentst Room is getting blocked by Roy Hibbert at the rim. So that's 823 00:55:09,199 --> 00:55:13,360 that's like one of my favorite it like it guts me to look at but 824 00:55:13,360 --> 00:55:16,639 that's actually one of the like the best still shot photos that I've seen from 825 00:55:16,639 --> 00:55:21,599 the NBA in recent memory. But he had great moments with the Knicks and 826 00:55:21,800 --> 00:55:24,880 the sixty two point game and against the Hornets like those when he got hot, 827 00:55:24,960 --> 00:55:28,519 or the Easter game against the Bulls. I think that was twenty twelve 828 00:55:28,519 --> 00:55:31,239 where he hits those two threees to just win it all. But he was 829 00:55:31,320 --> 00:55:36,599 really good for this team. I don't think they ever optimized him the way 830 00:55:36,599 --> 00:55:39,039 that he needed to be. Twenty twenty thirteen is probably the closest they came 831 00:55:39,119 --> 00:55:44,440 to surrounding him with the right personalities, and then twenty thirteen twenty fourteen is 832 00:55:44,440 --> 00:55:46,920 probably the closest they came to using him in the best fashions. So if 833 00:55:46,920 --> 00:55:52,960 you were combined just the the circumstances of those two seasons, you have the 834 00:55:52,960 --> 00:55:58,039 perfect version of Mellow And then the Knicks never got anywhere close to that though 835 00:55:58,039 --> 00:56:00,719 it was those two seasons were just separate and still missing elements. He definitely 836 00:56:00,719 --> 00:56:05,800 needed younger teammates around him towards the talent of that twenty thirteen season, more 837 00:56:05,800 --> 00:56:08,519 playoff proof guys than twenty thirteen twenty fourteen. He just didn't have the I 838 00:56:08,519 --> 00:56:12,400 mean he didn't have the talent either around him, But there wasn't also the 839 00:56:12,719 --> 00:56:15,920 requisite supplementary leadership for him either. And you can say that's on Mellow making 840 00:56:15,960 --> 00:56:20,559 him a flawed player, but you invested in him. That's the decision you 841 00:56:20,639 --> 00:56:22,440 made as the team. You need to make sure that you're surrounding him with 842 00:56:22,480 --> 00:56:27,840 the right type of roster and supporting cast, and the Nicks barely ever, 843 00:56:28,079 --> 00:56:35,280 if ever, actually did that. I don't like that. NBA conversations often 844 00:56:35,599 --> 00:56:40,079 operate in extremes wherein you're either a great defender or you're an awful defender, 845 00:56:42,679 --> 00:56:45,679 or you're a great shooter or a terrible shooter. It all. It seems 846 00:56:45,679 --> 00:56:50,199 like so many conversations tend of the year towards those polar opposites. But I'm 847 00:56:50,239 --> 00:56:55,039 gonna ask you to engage in that kind of answer. Here was his time 848 00:56:55,280 --> 00:57:01,400 in New York a success or not? That's a really good question. It 849 00:57:01,559 --> 00:57:05,880 was. In reality, it's on the fence, right, and I think 850 00:57:05,920 --> 00:57:08,480 we can all acknowledge that I'm asking you to come down on one side of 851 00:57:08,480 --> 00:57:13,840 that fence. I would say no, because you didn't trade for him with 852 00:57:13,880 --> 00:57:20,000 the intention of making three playoff berths in was it seven years. I think 853 00:57:20,079 --> 00:57:22,920 is would have ended up being trying to double check myself here. You made 854 00:57:22,920 --> 00:57:24,719 three Yeah, just three playoff berths, and one of those came during a 855 00:57:24,760 --> 00:57:30,000 partial season that he was there. So that's just that's a failure. It's 856 00:57:30,000 --> 00:57:32,239 a failure on both Mellow and the team, more so the team to me. 857 00:57:32,280 --> 00:57:35,679 But I don't know that you can constitute it as a success. Yes, 858 00:57:35,719 --> 00:57:38,800 it gave the Knicks a marquee player around which to build, but they 859 00:57:38,840 --> 00:57:43,719 never properly did that. Maybe they did it once and that's just that's not 860 00:57:43,880 --> 00:57:49,000 enough when we're talking about six plus seasons. Yeah, I agree with you. 861 00:57:49,320 --> 00:57:52,320 My answer would also be that it was more of a failure than a 862 00:57:52,360 --> 00:57:55,719 success. But as soon as we allow any sort of nuance to enter into 863 00:57:55,760 --> 00:58:00,000 that question, I don't think it was Carmelo Anthony who was a failure. 864 00:58:02,039 --> 00:58:07,519 That distinction is important. The Knicks failed him, which made his time there 865 00:58:07,880 --> 00:58:09,639 a failure. Yeah, I think that's the best way to put it. 866 00:58:10,920 --> 00:58:15,199 Ready for some honorable mentions, Yes, they should get very interesting. There 867 00:58:15,239 --> 00:58:19,559 are a lot of them. So outside of the top ten in the fan 868 00:58:19,639 --> 00:58:22,480 vote, as we always go through at the end, we had Pablo Prigioni 869 00:58:22,599 --> 00:58:27,039 at eleven, Frank Ntilikina tied with Jason Kidd at twelve, Steve Novak at 870 00:58:27,119 --> 00:58:30,960 fourteen, a tie between Derrick Rose and RJ. Barrett at fifteen, Danilo 871 00:58:31,000 --> 00:58:36,639 Gallinari at seventeen, Landry Fields at eighteen, a tie between Chauncey Billips, 872 00:58:36,679 --> 00:58:40,480 Ennis Canter, Kevin Knox, Marcus Morris Senior. At nineteen twenty third, 873 00:58:40,519 --> 00:58:45,320 we have a tie between Andrea Barnyani Courtney Lee, David Lee, Julius Randall, 874 00:58:45,559 --> 00:58:50,800 and Ronnie Turryoff. At twenty eight, we have Alonso Treer, Lance 875 00:58:50,840 --> 00:58:54,960 Thomas Mark, Keith Morris who never played for the Knicks, and Michael Beasley. 876 00:58:55,000 --> 00:58:59,719 At thirty two, we had Jared Jeffries, Robin Lopez, Kylo Quinn 877 00:59:00,199 --> 00:59:02,840 way too low for O'Quinn. At thirty five, we had Kose Calderone and 878 00:59:02,840 --> 00:59:07,599 Wilson Chandler. At thirty seven we had Kenyon Martin, Ron Baker, Trey 879 00:59:07,639 --> 00:59:12,800 Burke and Billy heron On Gomez. Wow, that is quite the forty different 880 00:59:12,840 --> 00:59:16,960 players. I'm actually surprised, nine of which appeared for the Knicks. I'm 881 00:59:17,039 --> 00:59:22,199 actually shocked there was only thirteen players who appear in the top ten. Yeah, 882 00:59:22,280 --> 00:59:24,599 yeah, it did seem like it could go a lot more directions, 883 00:59:24,599 --> 00:59:30,280 and I guess it was actually more than forty because Alan Houston, Zion Williamson, 884 00:59:30,360 --> 00:59:32,440 Kyrie Irving, and Kevin Durant all appeared as well. We just deleted 885 00:59:32,440 --> 00:59:37,440 those ballots. Well look actually playing for them that yes, we have that 886 00:59:37,480 --> 00:59:40,599 power in the interest of getting us out of here and under an hour for 887 00:59:40,679 --> 00:59:45,400 a change, though, please please, pretty please with sugar on top, 888 00:59:45,480 --> 00:59:49,119 remember to rate, review and subscribe to us wherever you're consuming your podcasts, 889 00:59:49,559 --> 00:59:52,239 even if you're not getting it from iTunes. That is the best way to 890 00:59:52,239 --> 00:59:54,000 help us out. Please go throw us a five star rating, write a 891 00:59:54,079 --> 00:59:58,840 review. Those help paton as well. Even if you have a constructive criticism, 892 00:59:58,880 --> 01:00:01,480 we welcome it. We will be checking it, so continue to keep 893 01:00:01,519 --> 01:00:06,239 doing that. Shout Outs on Twitter are appreciated. Retweeting our promos, telling 894 01:00:06,239 --> 01:00:08,840 friends, family members, acquaintances, random people on social media about us. 895 01:00:08,880 --> 01:00:13,159 That helps too, whatever we can do to build up the community that we 896 01:00:13,159 --> 01:00:15,960 have built here, which we both very much appreciate. Also, please follow 897 01:00:16,000 --> 01:00:21,159 us on Twitter at Hardwood Knox. You can follow our YouTube channel as well 898 01:00:21,239 --> 01:00:25,639 YouTube dot com search Hardwood Knox and we will be right there until next time. 899 01:00:25,840 --> 01:00:29,679 We leave you with the shout out to the one, the only, 900 01:00:30,119 --> 01:00:38,480 the Knicks legend for this decade, fan favorite post up machine Aarona follow Sugar 901 01:00:38,559 --> 01:00:44,320 Ray, Leonard, Roberto Duran, Marvelous, Marvin Hagler, and Thomas Hearns. 902 01:00:44,920 --> 01:00:49,480 Legends whose four way rivalry define one of the greatest errors in boxing history. 903 01:00:50,199 --> 01:00:53,960 Relive their decade of dominance in the new Showtime Sports documentary The Kings, 904 01:00:54,000 --> 01:00:58,679 a four parts series premiering Sunday, June sixth, only on Showtime