WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.200 --> 00:00:17.879 I'm Jacob Kyle, and this is chittheads. Once we have more of a 2 00:00:18.000 --> 00:00:28.000 direct knowledge of how reality actually is, that contact with living presence, which 3 00:00:28.039 --> 00:00:35.439 is what I call it, That contact with living presence is equal to the 4 00:00:35.479 --> 00:00:48.479 greater embodiment of devotion and compassion suit this reality is actually made of wisdom. 5 00:00:48.920 --> 00:00:53.799 For what I call wisdom virtue, I mean consciousness and energy doesn't even begin 6 00:00:54.640 --> 00:01:04.439 to let us know what is really happening here. Shouldn't you having this direct 7 00:01:04.519 --> 00:01:10.840 experience. It isn't an intellectual thing. When we're having that experience, We're 8 00:01:10.879 --> 00:01:15.120 not being in the position of an observer or someone who's gathering facts. It's 9 00:01:15.239 --> 00:01:26.879 actually catalytic. So having that experience is equal to becoming more expressive of those 10 00:01:26.920 --> 00:01:34.120 wisdom virtues. So you automatically or automatically maybe become more able to access the 11 00:01:34.200 --> 00:01:38.480 compassion and wisdom of the heart, the devotion of the heart, the heart 12 00:01:38.519 --> 00:01:59.439 being everywhere on tikasheivism. When it comes to the war in Palestine, I 13 00:01:59.519 --> 00:02:05.040 have to a that I've felt somewhat paralyzed. I've felt quite frankly afraid about 14 00:02:05.079 --> 00:02:09.039 getting it wrong, about saying the wrong thing. While I've been deeply moved 15 00:02:09.080 --> 00:02:14.960 privately, I've struggled with how best to communicate my support beyond my close circle 16 00:02:15.000 --> 00:02:20.199 of friends, whereas others have seemed empowered to be vocally supportive one way or 17 00:02:20.240 --> 00:02:27.039 another. I've personally struggled with the moral complexities of holding both an acknowledgment of 18 00:02:27.120 --> 00:02:32.000 growing anti semitism in the world, with the unspeakable violence and dehumanization that is 19 00:02:32.080 --> 00:02:38.840 destroying so many Palestinian lives. And so I've needed to spend some time in 20 00:02:38.960 --> 00:02:45.599 study and reflection and in conversation in order to speak more confidently about perhaps the 21 00:02:45.639 --> 00:02:51.759 most significant global event in recent memory. And I call this a global event 22 00:02:52.080 --> 00:02:54.919 because even if we live on the other side of the planet and would rather 23 00:02:54.960 --> 00:03:00.800 ignore what's going on, this catastrophe like what happened and in the wake of 24 00:03:00.879 --> 00:03:05.159 nine to eleven, I believe, in many subtle and not so subtle ways, 25 00:03:05.520 --> 00:03:09.479 will reshape the imagination of human beings, just as the political decisions made 26 00:03:09.520 --> 00:03:15.879 after nine to eleven have shaped not just my generation, but all generations. 27 00:03:15.879 --> 00:03:21.800 Whether the new imagination forged in the wake of these events becomes a wiser and 28 00:03:22.000 --> 00:03:27.039 more awakened one, or whether it slips us collectively into deeper modes of ignorance 29 00:03:27.639 --> 00:03:32.039 is partly I think about how we choose to understand, respond, and relate 30 00:03:32.120 --> 00:03:38.120 to this moment. So unlike other political crises in recent memory, I've had 31 00:03:38.159 --> 00:03:43.639 to sit with what's going on, observe and learn more by listening to others, 32 00:03:44.120 --> 00:03:49.159 studying more about the history and context behind what's happening in Gaza. I've 33 00:03:49.159 --> 00:03:53.639 also had to analyze and critically reflect on some assumptions that I didn't even know 34 00:03:53.759 --> 00:03:58.759 I had. As a result, I feel more strongly than ever before that 35 00:03:58.919 --> 00:04:04.159 the pro Palestinian and cause, one that is undoubtedly complex and multifaceted, but 36 00:04:04.280 --> 00:04:11.919 the morality of which ultimately feels profoundly clear, is a worthy and important one 37 00:04:11.919 --> 00:04:16.480 for spiritual leaders and practitioners to learn more about and to stand behind, rather 38 00:04:16.560 --> 00:04:23.279 than to shove our heads into the sand. Shambaviy noted in private conversation with 39 00:04:23.360 --> 00:04:27.560 me and publicly in one of her social media posts, that spiritual leaders have 40 00:04:27.639 --> 00:04:32.399 been uniquely silent right now. By comparison to other political movements of recent years, 41 00:04:32.839 --> 00:04:39.439 spiritual leaders and practitioners have been less public about support for Palestine. Why 42 00:04:39.560 --> 00:04:45.279 is this? Shambavi suggested to me that the motivation behind this silence perhaps boils 43 00:04:45.319 --> 00:04:50.399 down to concerns about losing money or losing followers on whatever social media platform one 44 00:04:50.519 --> 00:04:56.360 uses for their business's promotion, and I'm sure there's some truth to this, 45 00:04:57.639 --> 00:05:01.720 but my sense is that there is also a more complicated and understandable fear in 46 00:05:01.800 --> 00:05:08.720 some people's hearts that by standing more clearly in solidarity with Palestine, one lends 47 00:05:08.759 --> 00:05:14.040 an unintended energy or implicit support to the very real threat of anti Semitism, 48 00:05:14.600 --> 00:05:18.920 the reality of which we've witnessed tragically evolve over the last decade. And as 49 00:05:18.959 --> 00:05:23.959 someone with a great many friends who are Jewish, this emboldened hatred of the 50 00:05:24.040 --> 00:05:30.879 Jewish people deeply concerns me. But as I learned while watching the documentary Israelism 51 00:05:30.199 --> 00:05:35.639 after Shambavie recommended it, this argument is actually one that is often distilled into 52 00:05:35.680 --> 00:05:42.160 debates as a way of silencing criticism of the actions of Israel and supporting the 53 00:05:42.199 --> 00:05:47.920 false claim that one cannot be critical of Israel's actions without being an antisemite. 54 00:05:47.959 --> 00:05:55.399 This conflation of supporting a global people with supporting the contingent political decisions of a 55 00:05:55.439 --> 00:06:01.519 modern nation state is one way that modern Israel's conservative political propaganda operates. The 56 00:06:01.600 --> 00:06:09.319 truth is that one's concerns about anti Semitism should not and cannot be confused with 57 00:06:09.439 --> 00:06:13.920 the valid critiques of a modern nation state, no matter the history that it 58 00:06:14.000 --> 00:06:20.399 cites as a justification for its actions. Political Zionism, a way of thinking 59 00:06:20.480 --> 00:06:27.319 that operates in the background of so much of modern Israel's decisions, is a 60 00:06:27.360 --> 00:06:32.279 political and ideological movement that has evolved into a form that endangers the lives of 61 00:06:32.360 --> 00:06:38.639 both Jews and Palestinians and indeed the entire Middle East, if not the world. 62 00:06:39.160 --> 00:06:44.920 To equate Zionism with all Jewish people is as glaring an error as mistaking 63 00:06:44.959 --> 00:06:49.720 the American Christian nationalist agenda with all Christians. Now I should add that I 64 00:06:49.839 --> 00:06:56.720 personally cannot defend or excuse the actions of October seven as a legitimate form of 65 00:06:56.759 --> 00:07:00.759 resistance to Israel's oppression, as some of the left hevverye done. As someone 66 00:07:00.759 --> 00:07:04.560 who condemns violence in all of its forms, I simply can't go there. 67 00:07:05.199 --> 00:07:11.000 But I do think that we are deluding ourselves when we imagine the solution is 68 00:07:11.040 --> 00:07:15.560 simply to eradicate Hamas, because Hamas did not arise in a vacuum. It 69 00:07:15.680 --> 00:07:24.199 arose from circumstances of sustained oppression and occupation over nearly one hundred years. Of 70 00:07:24.279 --> 00:07:28.319 course, we don't want hamass in the world. Of course we don't want 71 00:07:28.439 --> 00:07:32.839 to see October seventh or any other terrorist act happen again. But we don't 72 00:07:32.839 --> 00:07:40.040 create a world without political violence by doubling down on the same toxic cycle of 73 00:07:40.240 --> 00:07:46.480 violence, oppression, and retribution that created the conditions for enough people to be 74 00:07:46.600 --> 00:07:53.839 radicalized in the first place. Radicalization and extremism are ways that human beings, 75 00:07:54.040 --> 00:08:01.439 sometimes rightly or wrongly, respond to extremism, and the historical circumstances that gave 76 00:08:01.600 --> 00:08:05.759 rise to the state of Israel were extreme. There is a great deal of 77 00:08:05.879 --> 00:08:11.720 historical evidence, documentaries, and perspectives of political analysis to support all of us 78 00:08:11.720 --> 00:08:18.120 in coming to terms with the fact that the creation of Israel was and continues 79 00:08:18.160 --> 00:08:24.439 to be a collective trauma for Palestinians. We can acknowledge the truth of that 80 00:08:24.920 --> 00:08:30.240 without calling for the eradication of Israel. But if we simply write off acts 81 00:08:30.279 --> 00:08:37.120 of political violence as instances of pure evil and fail to contextualize these actions within 82 00:08:37.159 --> 00:08:41.879 a compassionate view of the historical record, then I think we are leaning into 83 00:08:41.919 --> 00:08:48.360 a view that dehumanizes the history and experience of Palestinians. When a people are 84 00:08:48.399 --> 00:08:54.600 completely oppressed and lack any kind of political leverage or power within the dominant organizational 85 00:08:54.639 --> 00:08:58.960 frameworks of the world, then they will wield powers of self actualization in ways 86 00:09:00.200 --> 00:09:05.519 that exceed those institutions. They will fight back in ways that are sometimes shocking 87 00:09:05.600 --> 00:09:09.879 to us. So if we want to eradicate extremist violence, then I think 88 00:09:09.919 --> 00:09:13.840 we need to take a long, hard look at history, at the region, 89 00:09:15.360 --> 00:09:20.720 and most importantly, at ourselves. We need to own the cultural myths 90 00:09:20.759 --> 00:09:26.080 and narratives that have contributed to this crisis, and to shift that narrative to 91 00:09:26.159 --> 00:09:33.919 one that humanizes Palestinians and rejects the Islamophobic framework that imagines Muslims as little more 92 00:09:33.919 --> 00:09:39.960 than radical extremists whose agency and freedom of self actualization is denied them. But 93 00:09:41.039 --> 00:09:45.919 what does this have to do with spiritual practice and contemplative teachings. Doesn't this 94 00:09:46.000 --> 00:09:50.600 fall outside the scope of what yogis and meditators should be concerned about more than 95 00:09:50.639 --> 00:09:56.080 this? Isn't it quote unquote n yogic to take a particular side on anything 96 00:09:56.200 --> 00:10:01.919 in the so called material world, not according to shambavill and not according to 97 00:10:01.960 --> 00:10:07.519 the spiritual tradition she endorses, which is one that embraces all phenomena as waves 98 00:10:07.600 --> 00:10:13.480 on the ocean of spiritual life. She reminds us in this episode that one 99 00:10:13.480 --> 00:10:18.039 of the greatest spiritual tales of the Indian tradition takes place on a battlefield in 100 00:10:18.120 --> 00:10:24.639 the Mahabarita. The Pundavas and the Kaudava's, essentially cousins, are at war. 101 00:10:24.639 --> 00:10:30.000 In a moment depicted through a portion of the Mahabarita famously known as the 102 00:10:30.039 --> 00:10:35.879 Bagavadgita, Krishna joins Arjina in a silent space between the two armies. During 103 00:10:35.879 --> 00:10:41.559 this exchange, Arjina speaks with God and shares his paralysis. This is his 104 00:10:41.679 --> 00:10:46.080 family, after all, How can he participate in a war against his own 105 00:10:46.200 --> 00:10:54.039 family amidst the dynamic unfolding of one of the world's great spiritual treatises. After 106 00:10:54.120 --> 00:10:58.399 teaching Arjina about the nature of reality, the message Krishna offers is clear. 107 00:11:00.279 --> 00:11:05.240 Argina's dharma is to fight now. There are countless interpretations of the Bagabaghita to 108 00:11:05.279 --> 00:11:09.240 be found in the spiritual literature, and many would argue that the war between 109 00:11:09.279 --> 00:11:13.840 the Pundavas and the Cautavas is an allegory for the war inside each one of 110 00:11:13.919 --> 00:11:20.960 us. This is undoubtedly true, But when we use our spiritual worldview as 111 00:11:20.000 --> 00:11:24.320 a container within which to bracket out the affairs of the world, are we 112 00:11:24.399 --> 00:11:31.120 not simultaneously avoiding a confrontation with how the wars happening on the global stage are 113 00:11:31.159 --> 00:11:37.600 in fact reflections of the wars and divisions within each of us. To take 114 00:11:37.639 --> 00:11:43.799 this analogy further, to bypass the disease currently playing out on a global level 115 00:11:43.399 --> 00:11:48.159 is to ignore the symptoms of disease in our very own body. If we 116 00:11:48.240 --> 00:11:54.360 believe in the interconnectedness of everything, then we have to acknowledge that our global 117 00:11:54.399 --> 00:12:00.279 body is in profound need of healing. So when we buy pass as the 118 00:12:00.320 --> 00:12:05.039 wars outside, we bypass the war within. And in the war within, 119 00:12:05.639 --> 00:12:11.639 there can be only one victor, that of wisdom for myself. To fight 120 00:12:11.679 --> 00:12:16.960 on the side of wisdom means to be against ignorance, against ideological conformity, 121 00:12:16.320 --> 00:12:22.960 and against worldviews that privilege one form of life over another. To be on 122 00:12:22.080 --> 00:12:28.879 wisdom's side means to actively cultivate knowledge that helps me to see beyond the limiting 123 00:12:28.919 --> 00:12:35.240 beliefs imposed upon me by a cultural status quo. It means seeing how organized 124 00:12:35.279 --> 00:12:41.000 forces of suppression and domination shape our awareness fields in ways that cut us off 125 00:12:41.320 --> 00:12:46.960 from the wellspring of love and compassion that is our true nature to build a 126 00:12:46.960 --> 00:12:52.639 wiser world. Something I recently said in an interview was always at the foundation 127 00:12:52.799 --> 00:12:58.720 of the embodied philosophy project is as much about building a spiritual home inside as 128 00:12:58.720 --> 00:13:03.159 it is about working towards conditions of life that would support others to do the 129 00:13:03.159 --> 00:13:07.919 same. After all, when a people are in flames, we are all 130 00:13:07.960 --> 00:13:11.519 in flames. And if we dig deeply enough within ourselves, I think we 131 00:13:11.639 --> 00:13:16.480 know this to be true. And when we know the truth, if we 132 00:13:16.559 --> 00:13:20.679 listen carefully enough, we also can begin to receive insights about what to do. 133 00:13:22.240 --> 00:13:26.840 Our spiritual practices offer us unique tools to access the truth, and when 134 00:13:26.879 --> 00:13:31.799 we become intimate with that source of truth within ourselves, a motivating impulse of 135 00:13:31.879 --> 00:13:37.960 love and compassion ignites us. But we can feel ignited, inspired, or 136 00:13:39.039 --> 00:13:43.639 moved while still feeling stuck in the stories that limit our capacity for action. 137 00:13:43.960 --> 00:13:48.679 One of the ways we accomplish this habit of self containment is by reciting what 138 00:13:48.759 --> 00:13:54.960 I'll call the mantra of contraction. We tell ourselves that we are too small 139 00:13:54.000 --> 00:13:58.720 to make a difference, that our voice doesn't matter, that it's too late 140 00:13:58.759 --> 00:14:03.320 to enter the conversation, or that others are doing a better job at participating 141 00:14:03.440 --> 00:14:07.200 than we could. I've told myself all of these stories recently, but my 142 00:14:07.320 --> 00:14:11.919 exchanges with Shamba Ville over email, through my studies, and through this conversation 143 00:14:13.360 --> 00:14:18.120 have shifted my perspective. Her most illuminative teaching for me has been to follow 144 00:14:18.200 --> 00:14:24.679 how we individually feel moved to participate, beyond fear of retribution or sanction from 145 00:14:24.679 --> 00:14:30.679 those who feel otherwise. Being moved to participate doesn't mean that you have to 146 00:14:30.679 --> 00:14:35.360 participate in the social media storm of activity. It doesn't necessarily mean that you 147 00:14:35.440 --> 00:14:41.360 have to join a demonstration or a political organization. To be moved can and 148 00:14:41.519 --> 00:14:46.320 may mean any or all of these things, or it might mean something altogether 149 00:14:46.440 --> 00:14:50.679 different, some form of engagement that is uniquely your own. For myself, 150 00:14:50.960 --> 00:14:56.879 at this moment, I've been moved to shift the register of my conversations from 151 00:14:56.919 --> 00:15:00.879 private ones to some that I can share here on the chain Head's podcast. 152 00:15:01.600 --> 00:15:05.919 I feel moved to work through my own doubts and feelings of paralysis. By 153 00:15:05.000 --> 00:15:09.799 learning from my studies and from individuals who have more insight than I do on 154 00:15:09.879 --> 00:15:16.200 this issue. I feel moved to lay my fears aside about disappointing people who 155 00:15:16.240 --> 00:15:20.679 feel otherwise or who would prefer I stick to the yoga, And perhaps most 156 00:15:20.759 --> 00:15:26.279 importantly, I feel moved to work against any organized, ideological or political system 157 00:15:26.799 --> 00:15:31.399 that does not speak for wisdom, that does not respect the sanctity of human 158 00:15:31.480 --> 00:15:37.440 life, and that does not understand the pain we inflict upon ourselves when we 159 00:15:37.519 --> 00:15:45.759 apathetically brush off as irrelevant to our comfortable lives the transparent and heartbreakingly profound injustices 160 00:15:46.240 --> 00:15:52.039 being exerted upon the people of Palestine. Building a wiser world, of course, 161 00:15:52.120 --> 00:15:56.720 will not happen overnight. We have to lay the foundations brick by brick. 162 00:15:56.519 --> 00:16:00.720 Part of that involves cleaning house within our line, making room for that 163 00:16:00.879 --> 00:16:07.600 sacred surge of compassion that will allow us to reconnect to our humanity. And 164 00:16:07.639 --> 00:16:11.759 a part of that involves seeing clearly how wisdom shows up in the material world 165 00:16:12.120 --> 00:16:18.840 and to lend our energy and support to its increasing manifestation. To me, 166 00:16:18.240 --> 00:16:22.480 this is not a fight between good and evil. It is a fight between 167 00:16:22.559 --> 00:16:29.200 wisdom and ignorance, which is a fight as equally present within us as it 168 00:16:29.240 --> 00:16:32.799 is in the world around us. I suppose I'll leave it there for now. 169 00:16:33.080 --> 00:16:37.200 As if that wasn't enough, let's transition now into my conversation with Shambavie. 170 00:16:38.279 --> 00:16:41.480 If you are a devoted listener of the Chittheads podcast, or you just 171 00:16:41.559 --> 00:16:47.159 would like to show some support, please consider leaving us a donation at buy 172 00:16:47.240 --> 00:16:52.200 me a Coffee dot com forward slash Chittheads. That's buy me a coffee dot 173 00:16:52.200 --> 00:16:57.960 com forward slash Chittheads. You can leave a donation for as little as five 174 00:16:59.039 --> 00:17:03.639 dollars, and anyone who leaves a donation of fifty dollars or more I'll give 175 00:17:03.639 --> 00:17:07.599 you a shout out on a future episode for being a patron of the Chittheads 176 00:17:07.640 --> 00:17:12.400 podcast. On that note, I would like to thank three individuals for their 177 00:17:12.400 --> 00:17:18.440 donations. A big, big thank you to Lynn Perry Sanchez. Lynn, 178 00:17:18.480 --> 00:17:21.880 I was so delighted to read about how much you enjoyed the opening remarks to 179 00:17:21.920 --> 00:17:26.559 the Hellenism episode with Athena. And a huge thank you to my brother Josh 180 00:17:26.599 --> 00:17:32.279 and his wife Tiffany. Although I'm pretty sure it was all you, Tiffany, 181 00:17:32.400 --> 00:17:36.279 so thank you to Josh, Tiffany and Lynn. As you can see, 182 00:17:36.319 --> 00:17:40.480 the donations aren't necessarily flooding in, so if you feel inspired to be 183 00:17:40.559 --> 00:17:44.440 added to this list of beautiful people, please consider leaving us a donation. 184 00:17:45.680 --> 00:17:49.359 Lastly, don't forget to subscribe to our new YouTube channel. Just tap at 185 00:17:49.440 --> 00:17:55.680 chittheads the at sign Chittheads in the search bar on YouTube and you should find 186 00:17:55.759 --> 00:18:00.519 us. Sean Bavie, for listeners of the podcast, needs no introduction. 187 00:18:00.119 --> 00:18:04.119 She is the director of Jayakula and one of the most inspiring teachers I know, 188 00:18:04.599 --> 00:18:11.000 always managing to make some of the most esoteric teachings accessible and relatable to 189 00:18:11.119 --> 00:18:14.680 life in the modern world. If you have any thoughts or ideas about the 190 00:18:14.720 --> 00:18:18.440 episode, please feel free to reach out to me at Chittheads at embodied philosophy 191 00:18:18.640 --> 00:18:27.240 dot com. I hope you enjoyed the episode. Hi, Shamba Vie, 192 00:18:27.359 --> 00:18:33.519 Welcome back to the Chittheads podcast. Thank you, Jacob. I'm happy to 193 00:18:33.519 --> 00:18:37.640 be here. It's so nice to see you again. It's been a bit. 194 00:18:37.880 --> 00:18:41.359 It's been a while since we did a Chittheads podcast episode. I think 195 00:18:41.720 --> 00:18:45.200 the last one we did was around the beginning of the pandemic, if I'm 196 00:18:45.200 --> 00:18:48.279 not mistaken. Yeah, I think it was like your hundredth or one hundredths 197 00:18:48.279 --> 00:18:53.680 and eight. Yes, yes, very very auspicious. Yeah, one hundred 198 00:18:53.680 --> 00:18:57.240 and eight. It was one hundred and eight episode. And you also have 199 00:18:57.319 --> 00:19:02.079 one hundred and eight is I mean a auspicious of course all over the the 200 00:19:02.160 --> 00:19:07.720 yoga tradition, but you have it also represented nicely in your Kindred one o 201 00:19:07.799 --> 00:19:11.240 eight Dot Love, which is one of your newer offerings. Am I am, 202 00:19:11.279 --> 00:19:17.640 I am I right. Yeah, it's a subset, and basically I 203 00:19:17.720 --> 00:19:22.319 wanted to have a place where I could just put all of my creative output, 204 00:19:25.359 --> 00:19:32.079 replicate the or demonstrate how everything can be part of your spiritual paths. 205 00:19:32.119 --> 00:19:37.240 So there's poetry and music and recipes and then just like lists of things that 206 00:19:37.279 --> 00:19:41.519 I've seen art and dance, and I just wanted a place where I could 207 00:19:41.559 --> 00:19:47.559 give it all away not waste anything. I love that. So is it 208 00:19:47.599 --> 00:19:51.480 safe to say that you were already writing this was a part of your kind 209 00:19:51.480 --> 00:19:53.480 of personal practice. You were writing these kinds of reflections, and so you've 210 00:19:53.519 --> 00:20:00.079 just decided to share them all on Kindred one o eight. Yeah, I 211 00:20:00.079 --> 00:20:06.000 I'm kind of a mad output machine. And I'm either writing, or I'm 212 00:20:06.039 --> 00:20:11.640 talking, or I'm watching cultural productions, or I'm engaging in conversations. I'm 213 00:20:12.759 --> 00:20:22.319 very much a participant in that way. And there's just never enough room within 214 00:20:22.519 --> 00:20:27.680 the structure of diacula or nonprofit for me to share all of that. And 215 00:20:27.759 --> 00:20:33.160 I really don't like keeping anything to myself. And I'm getting older, and 216 00:20:33.359 --> 00:20:40.519 so I figure, I just have this enormous backlog of all kinds of things 217 00:20:40.559 --> 00:20:45.759 that I've written and produced and seen, and then things I just enjoy. 218 00:20:45.839 --> 00:20:52.359 I love promoting musicians and artists and dancers. I love sharing things that my 219 00:20:52.400 --> 00:20:56.400 students are doing. You know, about a quarter of our community are healthcare 220 00:20:56.400 --> 00:21:00.160 providers, acupuncturists, nature paths, and all kinds of things. So I 221 00:21:00.200 --> 00:21:04.799 love sharing all that stuff too with people. And Kindred one way to assist 222 00:21:04.799 --> 00:21:11.119 this giant grab bag or giant landscape of all of these things that I am 223 00:21:11.160 --> 00:21:15.680 sharing. Also have hundreds and hundreds of recipes. I love to cook. 224 00:21:17.359 --> 00:21:19.839 Wow, I need to come over too, Yeah, come on over. 225 00:21:21.319 --> 00:21:25.720 I do not like to cook. I'm glad we got a chance to just 226 00:21:25.799 --> 00:21:27.480 mention Kindred one O eight because it is something that I, you know, 227 00:21:27.519 --> 00:21:33.920 have been perusing recently after we were you know, interacting to talk about having 228 00:21:33.000 --> 00:21:37.720 this conversation, and it really is beautiful. I mean, I've always been 229 00:21:37.759 --> 00:21:41.880 a huge fan of your writing, and you've written several books which people can 230 00:21:41.960 --> 00:21:45.039 check out. So it's really nice to have a place where where you can 231 00:21:45.119 --> 00:21:51.200 see that ongoing writing productivity. So anybody who's listening, do check that out. 232 00:21:51.240 --> 00:21:53.680 I usually mention these sorts of things at the end, but hey, 233 00:21:53.720 --> 00:21:59.480 here you go Kindred one O eight dot love and we'll mention the other links 234 00:21:59.759 --> 00:22:04.119 that you can find Shamba Viet later. So to get to our topic for 235 00:22:04.200 --> 00:22:10.480 today, you know, I have this I guess, well, maybe it's 236 00:22:10.519 --> 00:22:12.759 too early to call it a pattern, but it's the second time now that 237 00:22:12.880 --> 00:22:18.359 sort of in a time of you know, crisis, as someone who is 238 00:22:18.759 --> 00:22:22.440 you know, uh, you know, I really respect your position and perspective 239 00:22:22.440 --> 00:22:26.680 as a teacher, and I feel like you always have really relevant insights and 240 00:22:26.720 --> 00:22:33.279 wisdom to share during periods that you know are really significant. And of course 241 00:22:33.359 --> 00:22:38.759 this, uh, this moment and what's going on uh in Gaza and in 242 00:22:38.880 --> 00:22:44.519 Palestine and and the Israel Palestine issue is obviously a huge one. On people's 243 00:22:44.559 --> 00:22:49.640 minds and has really activated a lot of people. Has really, as you 244 00:22:49.720 --> 00:22:55.559 were saying an email to me, has moved the hearts of so many and 245 00:22:55.559 --> 00:23:00.319 and so I wanted to begin just by talking about what you are observing in 246 00:23:00.359 --> 00:23:03.920 this moment. You know, you had described it in one of our emails 247 00:23:03.359 --> 00:23:10.319 as this kind of massive heart opening. And people wouldn't necessarily think, you 248 00:23:10.359 --> 00:23:12.319 know, of a moment like this as a time of heart opening, right. 249 00:23:12.359 --> 00:23:18.640 They think of it as a time of anger or you know, you 250 00:23:18.640 --> 00:23:22.839 know, any other emotion that is that expresses outrage at the situation and wants 251 00:23:22.920 --> 00:23:27.519 to be of service in some way. And so I'd just wanted to ask 252 00:23:27.559 --> 00:23:30.640 you to talk a little bit about what that means for you, this this 253 00:23:30.720 --> 00:23:38.279 moment of a great heart opening. Jacob. I've been involved in political movements, 254 00:23:38.359 --> 00:23:45.400 liberation movements, civil rights movements since I was a little girl. My 255 00:23:45.559 --> 00:23:52.480 parents were sort of leftish, and they took me to civil rights marches and 256 00:23:52.200 --> 00:23:57.960 anti war, anti Vietnam War marches, and these things were talked about around 257 00:23:59.000 --> 00:24:03.880 the dinner table, and I was aware of a lot of different genocides that 258 00:24:03.880 --> 00:24:10.839 have happened, you know, in my childhood and later on, and then 259 00:24:11.039 --> 00:24:17.079 when I became more of an adult, you know, I was employed full 260 00:24:17.160 --> 00:24:25.000 time working for nonprofit organizations doing human rights and social justice work. And then 261 00:24:25.160 --> 00:24:29.759 even when I was in graduate school, you know, on my way to 262 00:24:29.799 --> 00:24:36.000 becoming a professor, I was still doing work for social justice and human rights 263 00:24:36.119 --> 00:24:40.599 organizations. So this has just been a constant through line in my life. 264 00:24:40.640 --> 00:24:47.519 And I am just seeing something now that I have never seen before. And 265 00:24:47.640 --> 00:24:53.359 I can't really fully explain why that is. You know, things coalesce in 266 00:24:53.519 --> 00:24:59.880 time and have infinite causes. I can, you know, given it, 267 00:25:00.000 --> 00:25:04.079 opinion about some of those causes. But in any case, the thing that 268 00:25:04.160 --> 00:25:11.839 has been emblematic of this for me is the chant that you hear at the 269 00:25:11.880 --> 00:25:17.599 mass demonstrations in the millions and the billions, we are all Palestinians. And 270 00:25:17.839 --> 00:25:21.519 I every time I say that, and every time I hear that, I 271 00:25:21.720 --> 00:25:26.440 just feel this like movement in my own heart. I just feel it so 272 00:25:26.640 --> 00:25:33.160 deeply. And it's been a question for me since October seventh, since I 273 00:25:33.279 --> 00:25:38.480 first heard this chant. Why are people chanting this? Why this genocide, 274 00:25:40.079 --> 00:25:47.079 you know, why this movement for liberation, Why this political moment or this 275 00:25:47.200 --> 00:25:51.200 moment in human history, because of course, you know, when I was 276 00:25:51.240 --> 00:25:55.720 growing up, I never heard anybody chanting in the millions and the billions, 277 00:25:55.759 --> 00:25:59.839 we are all African Americans, the millions and the billions, we are all 278 00:26:00.039 --> 00:26:04.599 Ambodians, or anything like that. You know. In fact, in more 279 00:26:04.640 --> 00:26:11.440 contemporary discourse to say something like that might be considered appropriation or you know, 280 00:26:12.400 --> 00:26:19.559 bring some deserved critique. But somehow, in this moment, it feels absolutely 281 00:26:19.759 --> 00:26:33.400 right, and it feels like this statement of or declaration of commonality, connection 282 00:26:34.079 --> 00:26:42.200 care, you know, lack of separation. Somehow, Now, how could 283 00:26:42.279 --> 00:26:49.400 all of the you know, the Palestinians have been experiencing what the Israeli historian 284 00:26:49.440 --> 00:26:56.119 ELM. Peppe has called an incremental genocide for at least seventy five years, 285 00:26:56.160 --> 00:27:00.200 and you could say that it's actually started one hundred years ago when the first 286 00:27:00.400 --> 00:27:10.480 Zionist European Jews moved to Palestine and started taking land and houses, even though 287 00:27:10.519 --> 00:27:15.960 there were already Jewish people living there peacefully. The Zionist movement started a new 288 00:27:15.079 --> 00:27:25.920 era of Jews in Palestine. So Ilo Pope has called this whole process of 289 00:27:26.000 --> 00:27:30.480 ethnic cleansing that was part of the Zionist project from the beginning, and then 290 00:27:30.640 --> 00:27:40.599 also the killing of Palestinians to take their land and resources, an incremental genocide. 291 00:27:40.839 --> 00:27:45.279 So we are not experiencing yet, I mean many, you know, 292 00:27:45.359 --> 00:27:52.359 those of us outside of Palestine, unless we have genocide in our experience. 293 00:27:52.519 --> 00:27:56.000 You know, there are people here who have in the United States, who 294 00:27:56.039 --> 00:28:02.440 have experienced genocide. They're also myself on all of my ancestors are Jewish, 295 00:28:02.480 --> 00:28:07.720 so there's some genocide in my ancestral line which might be having effects. But 296 00:28:07.839 --> 00:28:14.599 in general, I think that what is happening is that over the past couple 297 00:28:14.599 --> 00:28:23.119 of decades, in particular, there is more understanding among more people that there 298 00:28:23.240 --> 00:28:30.920 is a degree of cruelty and lack of care that human beings are capable of 299 00:28:30.960 --> 00:28:36.920 in lots of different areas. And our relationship to land and sea and airr 300 00:28:37.119 --> 00:28:41.440 in our relationship to animals, in our relationship to people who get to find 301 00:28:41.559 --> 00:28:47.720 as the other. Many of us have experiences of being the other. I 302 00:28:47.720 --> 00:28:52.119 mean myself as a woman, as a queer person, as a person of 303 00:28:52.200 --> 00:28:57.519 Jewish ancestry, as a person who has just had more radical views most of 304 00:28:57.559 --> 00:29:03.079 her life. You know, there's many vectors along which I've experienced being othered 305 00:29:03.119 --> 00:29:07.240 and have experienced violence. You know, I was raped when I was young, 306 00:29:07.359 --> 00:29:14.240 and I've experienced various kinds of hate and disparagement because of various you could 307 00:29:14.240 --> 00:29:18.759 call them identities. But in any case, I think there's just been this 308 00:29:18.920 --> 00:29:26.279 movement toward more people realizing that, although what is happening to the Palestinians right 309 00:29:26.359 --> 00:29:33.200 now is more extreme, that we are all subject to this violence, to 310 00:29:33.440 --> 00:29:44.720 this aspect of human beings that doesn't care for taking care of each other or 311 00:29:44.839 --> 00:29:51.200 our world. And I think there's a groundswell of people all over the world 312 00:29:51.240 --> 00:30:00.000 who are feeling this very deeply. And the spectacle of this genus side happening 313 00:30:02.279 --> 00:30:10.440 in real time and being reported on by the people it's happening to in real 314 00:30:10.559 --> 00:30:17.680 time has just triggered something very very deep in US, or in many of 315 00:30:17.799 --> 00:30:22.960 us, obviously not in all of US. And the spectacle of watching governments, 316 00:30:23.359 --> 00:30:29.720 you know, in the US government, the UK, Canada, Germany 317 00:30:30.000 --> 00:30:34.839 in particular, but other governments too in fact not only not doing anything to 318 00:30:34.880 --> 00:30:41.039 stop this, but actually aiding and abetting this, has I think created a 319 00:30:41.079 --> 00:30:48.680 moment that is really akin to what we read about in the Mahabarta. I 320 00:30:48.720 --> 00:30:52.319 don't know how many off your listeners will be familiar with that. But the 321 00:30:52.400 --> 00:30:57.319 Maha Parta is an Indian teaching story. It's called an epic in Western terms, 322 00:30:57.359 --> 00:31:04.799 but it is a spiritual teaching story, very ancient, and it's about 323 00:31:06.079 --> 00:31:15.880 two related sides of a family, one side which represents relative ignorance, cruelty, 324 00:31:17.279 --> 00:31:23.119 ambition, greed, the other side that is moving more toward wisdom and 325 00:31:23.359 --> 00:31:30.319 caring and open heartedness. And they're related. So this is the great theme 326 00:31:30.440 --> 00:31:37.319 of the mahapart to this war which is taking place on what is explicitly called 327 00:31:37.319 --> 00:31:51.359 a field of tarma. So we can't disown the cruelty, ignorance, stupidity 328 00:31:51.400 --> 00:31:56.559 of the heart that we're seeing from many human beings right now. We can't 329 00:31:56.799 --> 00:32:07.400 disown the madness, like through madness that has seemingly overtaken Israel and others who 330 00:32:08.599 --> 00:32:14.720 are on board for this slaughter that's happening. You know, there's there's actual 331 00:32:14.880 --> 00:32:22.079 madness happening, and we can't disown that. And there's just this yearning has 332 00:32:22.160 --> 00:32:28.319 been unleashed, I think, to find a better way to find our better 333 00:32:28.400 --> 00:32:35.480 selves and to have our better selves, our more dharmic selves be in charge, 334 00:32:35.599 --> 00:32:40.680 and so this is why I've been calling this a crack in time. 335 00:32:42.319 --> 00:32:49.960 The great war of the Mahabarta takes place at the change between one age and 336 00:32:50.039 --> 00:32:54.240 another, and Sanskrit these are called yugas, and so it takes place in 337 00:32:54.599 --> 00:33:00.799 a crack in an open space between the Treta Yuga and the Cali Yuga, 338 00:33:00.799 --> 00:33:05.400 which we're said to be anow And it's literally symbolized by these two at the 339 00:33:05.400 --> 00:33:12.319 beginning of the Mahabart of the not the Mahabarta, but the sort of central 340 00:33:14.559 --> 00:33:19.359 teaching of the Mahabarta, which takes place in this these sections that are called 341 00:33:19.359 --> 00:33:22.839 the Baghabad Ghita, which lots of people have heard of, But the Bagavad 342 00:33:22.839 --> 00:33:27.319 Gita is actually part of the Mahabarta. So when the Baghavad Gita opens, 343 00:33:27.319 --> 00:33:34.000 there's these two armies on this on a field called krug Scheitra, and there's 344 00:33:34.039 --> 00:33:39.599 an open space in the field uh and in that open space, the great 345 00:33:39.960 --> 00:33:46.960 Dharmak warrior Arjina and his charioteer who is being played by Lord Krishna come out 346 00:33:47.000 --> 00:33:52.759 into the center of this open space and have a conversation. So it is 347 00:33:52.960 --> 00:33:59.039 exactly telling us about this crack and time. This time between these two ages 348 00:33:59.559 --> 00:34:02.160 where they're there has to be some sort of fight where there has to be 349 00:34:02.880 --> 00:34:10.679 people standing up for the for wisdom to rule, to win the day. 350 00:34:12.760 --> 00:34:15.880 And it's very, very explicit in the Maha Barta that although this is an 351 00:34:15.880 --> 00:34:22.920 incredible tale of an external battle, but that this battle is really taking place 352 00:34:23.000 --> 00:34:31.159 internally, that it's a battle that is between the wise and the ignorant parts 353 00:34:31.199 --> 00:34:36.960 of ourselves. So we have both of these things. And I think that 354 00:34:37.079 --> 00:34:42.719 the Palestinians themselves, for some of us, are coming to represent that wisdom, 355 00:34:43.280 --> 00:34:50.639 I mean in their valor, in their adherence to their spiritual lives, 356 00:34:50.840 --> 00:34:59.679 even in the midst of absolute horror, in their in how they relate to 357 00:34:59.719 --> 00:35:04.480 each other other as community, how they take care of each other, how 358 00:35:04.519 --> 00:35:07.440 they take care of the living, and how they take care of the dead. 359 00:35:07.239 --> 00:35:10.440 If you read a social media, if you keep up you know, 360 00:35:10.559 --> 00:35:15.199 say on Instagram, where a lot of the journalists and people on the ground 361 00:35:15.239 --> 00:35:22.719 in GUSA are posting daily, you will be treated to many, many scenes 362 00:35:22.360 --> 00:35:29.840 of community mutual care. And I really think this is just opening up this 363 00:35:30.000 --> 00:35:34.960 wellspring of yearning in people's hearts, especially here in the United States, we 364 00:35:35.159 --> 00:35:42.000 just are living in an extremely cruel culture where we don't have people, we 365 00:35:42.039 --> 00:35:45.000 don't have a good healthcare system, we aren't taking care of our land, 366 00:35:45.039 --> 00:35:51.880 sea and waters. Our education system is not great. There's just sense, 367 00:35:52.000 --> 00:35:58.320 this feeling that government is not caring for us, and this is a really 368 00:35:58.480 --> 00:36:04.920 insidious environment to be living in. And now it has been laid bare. 369 00:36:05.519 --> 00:36:12.840 It has been laid bare. Like eighty percent of Democrats want there to be 370 00:36:12.960 --> 00:36:19.599 a ceasefire and don't agree with the US policy with respect to us in Israel. 371 00:36:20.239 --> 00:36:24.760 Sixty percent of all Americans don't agree and want a permanent seasfire. So 372 00:36:24.880 --> 00:36:30.079 the government is doing the opposite of what the people want, you know, 373 00:36:30.159 --> 00:36:37.719 the people in massive numbers, and they're you know, gaslighting us and lying 374 00:36:37.760 --> 00:36:42.840 to us and trying to manipulate us and being condescending and treating, you know, 375 00:36:42.880 --> 00:36:50.199 trying to preserve their power in the most obvious ways. And people are 376 00:36:50.239 --> 00:36:52.920 onto them. People are just onto them, and they're sick of it. 377 00:36:54.559 --> 00:37:00.360 One of the so I think that there's this massive heart opening which you can 378 00:37:00.480 --> 00:37:07.559 see materialized in massive demonstrations all over the world that are happening and continue to 379 00:37:07.639 --> 00:37:12.239 happen you know, people are not getting tired of this. They are continuing 380 00:37:12.800 --> 00:37:15.920 to demonstrate, to write to their elected officials, to talk about this, 381 00:37:16.000 --> 00:37:22.719 to post about this, to feel about this. And it hasn't it hasn't 382 00:37:22.079 --> 00:37:27.079 died out because it's news cycle has gone away or so, you know, 383 00:37:27.159 --> 00:37:32.519 the usual thing. I think it's really turning into something that is going to 384 00:37:32.639 --> 00:37:38.920 be a massive global shift. And I don't know how long it's going to 385 00:37:38.960 --> 00:37:46.880 take for that to materialize into different people in charge, but I really feel 386 00:37:46.920 --> 00:37:53.400 that, and I feel just incredibly moved every day. There was a scene 387 00:37:53.440 --> 00:38:00.679 I wanted to just say for those maybe who haven't been watching Instagram, and 388 00:38:00.719 --> 00:38:05.480 I've been trying to post as much as possible so that those who aren't watching 389 00:38:05.480 --> 00:38:08.559 maybe have a chance to get a glimpse of what's happening. But there's a 390 00:38:08.599 --> 00:38:15.800 young journalist's named Motaz who's become very famous worldwide. And he was twenty four 391 00:38:15.920 --> 00:38:21.840 when October seventh happened. He's not twenty five, and he's in Katar now. 392 00:38:22.199 --> 00:38:23.840 He had to leave because of death threats. But in any case, 393 00:38:24.719 --> 00:38:30.119 he basically like did cinema verite while he was just walking the streets of Casa 394 00:38:30.199 --> 00:38:39.079 as it was being bombed, and just absolutely powerful journalism. And in one 395 00:38:39.199 --> 00:38:45.719 day, I was watching a live broadcast of his. He had his camera 396 00:38:45.760 --> 00:38:50.880 and all of a sudden, bombs started falling very near to him and he 397 00:38:50.960 --> 00:38:53.519 started running. We could see the camera up and down, and he was 398 00:38:53.599 --> 00:38:58.280 talking. You could hear the fear in his voice, and I thought, 399 00:38:58.320 --> 00:39:01.280 oh good, he's running away. He survives. But it turned out he 400 00:39:01.360 --> 00:39:07.840 was actually running toward the bombs, and all these men, like you know, 401 00:39:07.960 --> 00:39:13.320 twenty thirty men eventually could see. They were all running toward this building 402 00:39:13.320 --> 00:39:17.679 that had just been bombed seconds ago, and it was like seconds after the 403 00:39:17.719 --> 00:39:23.039 bombing stopped, they started digging trying to find survivors. And this is just 404 00:39:23.800 --> 00:39:28.480 this is, I think, what we really want for ourselves. This is 405 00:39:28.519 --> 00:39:32.039 how we want to be. This is the courage we want to see in 406 00:39:32.079 --> 00:39:37.119 ourselves, the care we want to see, the love we want to see, 407 00:39:37.760 --> 00:39:40.039 the concern for others we want to see in our heart of hearts, 408 00:39:40.559 --> 00:39:43.920 and we want to see it in ourselves, and we want to see it 409 00:39:43.960 --> 00:39:47.800 in those governing us too. Yea. And everyone is talking about this, 410 00:39:47.840 --> 00:39:57.079 who's been following this, you know how unbelievably brave and selfless. The culture 411 00:39:57.679 --> 00:40:02.039 of care is a these people, and I really think that that has been 412 00:40:04.360 --> 00:40:07.800 cause that has been affecting the shift. So it's like, you know, 413 00:40:07.840 --> 00:40:12.519 in a sense, like the Palestinians are serving the role of the Pondavas and 414 00:40:12.559 --> 00:40:17.519 then the white European American powers are like the coward was. If people are 415 00:40:17.559 --> 00:40:23.400 familiar with the Maha part, yeah, thank you for bringing the Mahabarata into 416 00:40:23.440 --> 00:40:30.519 this Mahabareta into this conversation. I feel like that was really it's a really 417 00:40:30.599 --> 00:40:36.719 powerful kind of lens that helps situate kind of the struggle and it being you 418 00:40:36.719 --> 00:40:42.400 know, so explicitly about this profound war that nonetheless is you know, laced 419 00:40:42.440 --> 00:40:47.760 with spiritual teachings. As you're right, it's it's incredibly useful at this moment 420 00:40:47.840 --> 00:40:52.400 to think in those along the lines of the Mahabarata. And so I wanted 421 00:40:52.440 --> 00:40:58.519 to ask a question related to your own kind of spiritual the spiritual context and 422 00:40:59.360 --> 00:41:02.800 the view to things that you come from, because you know, as perhaps 423 00:41:02.840 --> 00:41:06.719 some people know who are familiar with your work, you are a teacher of 424 00:41:06.760 --> 00:41:14.119 tri Kushaivism and Jogchen, and oftentimes these are associated with non dual traditions or 425 00:41:14.199 --> 00:41:16.920 they're not associated, they are non dual traditions. And you know, there's 426 00:41:16.920 --> 00:41:24.320 sometimes in my experience there's sometimes a bit of a misunderstanding of how non duality 427 00:41:24.440 --> 00:41:31.719 connects to ethical and moral engagement. And what I've often really appreciated about your 428 00:41:32.639 --> 00:41:39.199 interpretation of reading or understanding of the traditions is that by connecting with that nondual 429 00:41:39.840 --> 00:41:45.400 you know, substance consciousness, however you want to express it, there is 430 00:41:45.440 --> 00:41:51.719 a natural and spontaneous arising of love and compassion for you. And so to 431 00:41:51.760 --> 00:41:58.400 me, it's very clear how that then connects to and evolves and transforms into 432 00:41:58.480 --> 00:42:06.800 a very engaged and nourished activism. So can you talk a little bit about 433 00:42:06.840 --> 00:42:10.320 that maybe and plug in the pieces that I'm missing in terms of how how 434 00:42:10.480 --> 00:42:15.119 your own spiritual practice, your own the context of your own understanding of the 435 00:42:15.119 --> 00:42:25.119 tradition is actually informing and inspiring this connection and relationship with what's going on. 436 00:42:25.559 --> 00:42:35.280 So before we have the kind of realization that allows us to recognize and be 437 00:42:35.719 --> 00:42:39.159 in contact with an immersed in what we could call a natural state, I 438 00:42:39.159 --> 00:42:43.199 don't call it non duality. And I'll explain that for minute in a minute. 439 00:42:43.239 --> 00:42:52.559 But before we have that contact and immersion, it's useful to have guidelines, 440 00:42:52.159 --> 00:42:57.360 you know, precepts of some sort of how to behave or what to 441 00:42:57.440 --> 00:43:00.599 do and what not to do. These are functional just kind of you know, 442 00:43:00.760 --> 00:43:05.719 keeping us out of the worst kind of trouble while we are doing our 443 00:43:05.760 --> 00:43:12.199 practice and trying to realize more. But once we have more of a direct 444 00:43:12.679 --> 00:43:21.679 knowledge of how reality actually is, that contact with living presence, which is 445 00:43:21.719 --> 00:43:29.400 what I call it, That contact with living presence is equal to the greater 446 00:43:29.519 --> 00:43:37.000 embodiment of devotion and compassion. So when you mentioned the word consciousness when I 447 00:43:37.320 --> 00:43:44.239 was the young Ton tric pup, the nature of reality was described to me 448 00:43:44.400 --> 00:43:51.440 as consciousness and energy and that's very clinical, and I had, you know, 449 00:43:51.599 --> 00:43:54.000 it sounded nice, but I didn't have like a big reaction to that. 450 00:43:54.079 --> 00:43:57.280 It was just kind of, look, they file that under fact, 451 00:43:57.840 --> 00:44:04.679 right. But when I had been practicing more and began to have more direct 452 00:44:05.280 --> 00:44:12.280 personal experience of the natural state, the biggest revelation that I had was that 453 00:44:12.480 --> 00:44:17.760 this reality is actually made of wisdom. For what I call wisdom virtue, 454 00:44:19.000 --> 00:44:23.519 I mean, consciousness and energy doesn't even begin to let us know what is 455 00:44:23.559 --> 00:44:31.599 really happening here. So when we have that more direct experience, the I 456 00:44:31.679 --> 00:44:36.920 always want to come up with this very academic word when I'm describing this go 457 00:44:36.960 --> 00:44:45.679 for it imbrocation, This imprecation imbrocation, like this indistinguishability and meshing, merging 458 00:44:45.000 --> 00:44:53.039 of compassion and mercy and devotion in this vast intelligence full of creativity and event 459 00:44:53.159 --> 00:44:59.079 humor and hijinks, which is of course very much embodied by Krishna in the 460 00:44:59.400 --> 00:45:05.960 Barton. But in any case, what you learn is that reality is made 461 00:45:06.199 --> 00:45:09.280 of wisdom or what I call wisdom virtue because it's many of the things we 462 00:45:09.360 --> 00:45:17.679 associate as virtuous. And having this direct experience, it isn't an intellectual thing, 463 00:45:19.119 --> 00:45:22.480 so we're not when we're having that experience, we're not being in the 464 00:45:22.519 --> 00:45:29.639 position of an observer or someone who's gathering facts. It's actually catalytic. So 465 00:45:30.480 --> 00:45:39.119 having that experience is equal to becoming more expressive of those wisdom virtues. So 466 00:45:39.280 --> 00:45:50.679 you automatically or automatically maybe become more able to access the compassion and wisdom of 467 00:45:50.719 --> 00:45:54.519 the heart, the devotion of the heart, the heart being everywhere on Tchikashivism. 468 00:45:57.840 --> 00:46:01.960 And it's interesting because when I first we started perceiving this. It wasn't 469 00:46:01.960 --> 00:46:07.920 a teaching I had ever had. But then later I found in books that 470 00:46:07.519 --> 00:46:14.960 Okay, you know, this is what other the realization that other practitioners have 471 00:46:15.039 --> 00:46:22.119 come to also, So when we have that, when we have that heart, 472 00:46:22.840 --> 00:46:25.800 when we open to the heart that is already there, we don't need 473 00:46:25.880 --> 00:46:31.360 ethics or morality because we don't need rules. In other words, we don't 474 00:46:31.360 --> 00:46:37.159 need those guide rails because we're just going to be spontaneously expressive of that. 475 00:46:38.760 --> 00:46:45.519 And so in terms of political activism, are being more involved in the question 476 00:46:45.639 --> 00:46:52.840 of non duality. I am doing this because I'm simply moved to do it. 477 00:46:52.599 --> 00:46:57.159 I have no other reason. I'm not doing it because it's the right 478 00:46:57.239 --> 00:47:00.800 thing to do, or the ethical thing to do, or the moral thing 479 00:47:00.880 --> 00:47:05.280 to do. I don't have an argument about it about that. I am 480 00:47:05.360 --> 00:47:12.000 simply moved and I am letting myself be moved. Now, we all express 481 00:47:12.239 --> 00:47:17.480 being moved in different ways. But if you are really moved by that primordial 482 00:47:17.559 --> 00:47:25.039 compassion and devotion to everything, it could whatever you do is going to be 483 00:47:27.199 --> 00:47:31.719 expressive of that and effective. So I don't think that everybody has to be 484 00:47:31.840 --> 00:47:38.320 engaged in the same way. But I've always been involved politically, and I 485 00:47:38.360 --> 00:47:44.960 took ten years off for because I read in a book that my sach guru 486 00:47:45.199 --> 00:47:49.079 said that Sanyasen shouldn't be engaged politically. So I thought, I'm going to 487 00:47:49.119 --> 00:47:53.880 try that and see how that fsh So for ten years, I didn't say 488 00:47:53.920 --> 00:48:00.360 anything online, I didn't vote, I just didn't get involved. And that 489 00:48:00.440 --> 00:48:01.880 was kind of an interesting experiment. But that at the end of that, 490 00:48:01.960 --> 00:48:05.800 I was like, Okay, that's that doesn't feel like it, there's any 491 00:48:05.880 --> 00:48:10.960 point to that anymore, and I kind of got back to my more natural 492 00:48:10.960 --> 00:48:14.920 way of being in the world. But you know, somebody else's a natural 493 00:48:14.920 --> 00:48:19.159 way of being. The world could be different. But the thing is that 494 00:48:19.960 --> 00:48:23.159 what I mean of a group just said about the realized state. And I'm 495 00:48:23.159 --> 00:48:28.920 not claiming to be realized to any great degree, but I do have some 496 00:48:29.079 --> 00:48:37.480 realization enough to know and to be able to understand what it really is about. 497 00:48:37.840 --> 00:48:43.440 But what he said is that the realize state is being all for others. 498 00:48:45.559 --> 00:48:51.960 There's no self referentiality left that takes from others. Everything is always giving, 499 00:48:52.039 --> 00:48:57.239 like the fountain that's in the middle of the heart, and so whatever 500 00:48:57.280 --> 00:49:02.559 you're doing however you're showing up. Whether it looks like political activism or something 501 00:49:02.719 --> 00:49:07.639 entirely different, it is just naturally going to be all for others. That 502 00:49:07.800 --> 00:49:16.360 is really the hallmark in terms of non duality. People who think that we're 503 00:49:16.400 --> 00:49:23.159 sort of ascending from a dualistic experience to nondual are in a different tradition. 504 00:49:23.280 --> 00:49:29.599 This is not the teaching of Trikishivism orso chin So. The teaching of these 505 00:49:29.679 --> 00:49:36.760 traditions is that the dualistic experience, or the play of this dualistic experience, 506 00:49:37.519 --> 00:49:45.960 is the self expression of this aliva warre reality. It is often describes in 507 00:49:45.039 --> 00:49:52.000 terms like it's the ornament of God, or the glamor of God, or 508 00:49:52.039 --> 00:49:58.239 the magicy of God or the artistry of God. And it's described that way 509 00:49:58.280 --> 00:50:02.800 in other traditions too, like ramak Krishna called our experience of everyday life the 510 00:50:02.840 --> 00:50:10.599 mansion of fun. Yeah, there's this sense that we that we get more 511 00:50:10.679 --> 00:50:15.000 contact with the natural state, which is, you know, non duality in 512 00:50:15.000 --> 00:50:20.360 some way. But I would argue that it's that those concepts are useless after 513 00:50:20.400 --> 00:50:29.800 a time, and then we turn around and we enjoy what's here. There's 514 00:50:29.840 --> 00:50:32.719 another teacher who coined a phrase I really love about our experience here. He 515 00:50:32.840 --> 00:50:39.800 called it a theater of communication. This is the place where this alive, 516 00:50:39.880 --> 00:50:44.119 where reality. You could call it shivashakti, you could call it God, 517 00:50:44.199 --> 00:50:47.400 you could call it the natural state, you could call it whatever you want, 518 00:50:50.239 --> 00:50:55.039 gets to come and express itself and enjoy its own self expressions. So 519 00:50:55.320 --> 00:51:02.239 there's absolutely no sense in these kinds of tradition since that we are transcending dualistic 520 00:51:02.360 --> 00:51:09.199 experience. What we are leaving behind is the idea that it has the kind 521 00:51:09.519 --> 00:51:15.840 of objective reality that we often think it does when we don't have experience of 522 00:51:15.880 --> 00:51:22.880 the natural state. So it has its own reality, but it isn't objective. 523 00:51:25.079 --> 00:51:30.480 It's subjective. It is the product of a subjective Thank you. That 524 00:51:30.559 --> 00:51:34.599 was a beautiful explanation. So I want to now talk a little bit about 525 00:51:34.599 --> 00:51:37.280 what you have been talking about already, which is this kind of movement. 526 00:51:38.280 --> 00:51:42.199 I really love the way that you put it. How you know you're not 527 00:51:42.360 --> 00:51:47.320 doing this out of some kind of sense of moral obligation, you know, 528 00:51:47.400 --> 00:51:52.800 at least if we're talking sort of abstractly, you know what moral guidelines mean. 529 00:51:52.239 --> 00:51:57.119 But rather you're doing this because you feel moved to which is connected to 530 00:51:57.280 --> 00:52:00.440 this kind of you know, being I don't know, on the way of 531 00:52:00.480 --> 00:52:04.800 that shivashakti as it were, for lack of a better expression. So, 532 00:52:05.320 --> 00:52:12.639 you know, there are others who are perhaps feeling moved but blocked in some 533 00:52:12.800 --> 00:52:24.199 way by either what they sense is a mode of engagement on social media that 534 00:52:24.239 --> 00:52:30.000 they perhaps feel is a little too hot for them to participate in without getting 535 00:52:30.320 --> 00:52:37.159 in trouble with one side or another, or perhaps they feel that you know, 536 00:52:37.239 --> 00:52:39.239 they're they're they're not online, they're not in on social media, so 537 00:52:39.280 --> 00:52:43.280 they don't have a platform with which to kind of, you know, talk 538 00:52:43.320 --> 00:52:46.039 about these things. So I'm just wondering if you can speak a little bit 539 00:52:46.079 --> 00:52:52.440 to the obstacles to you know, those that are feeling that, I guess 540 00:52:52.480 --> 00:52:58.119 the bit the what happens between feeling moved and motivated and actually then participating in 541 00:52:58.119 --> 00:53:04.360 some way that feels express of that movement, and what we should do about 542 00:53:04.400 --> 00:53:12.079 feeling perhaps caught up or you know or I don't know, or like we 543 00:53:12.119 --> 00:53:15.199 should or should not participate in a particular way that we don't feel moved to. 544 00:53:15.719 --> 00:53:19.199 There's so many things that could be said about that, and so many 545 00:53:19.280 --> 00:53:25.639 different stories happening. Yeah, one story is that I don't know what to 546 00:53:25.719 --> 00:53:31.920 do and everything seems like pointless or ineffectual. I've heard people have written to 547 00:53:31.960 --> 00:53:37.039 me like that, you know. I've posted online, I've written to my 548 00:53:37.840 --> 00:53:42.360 elected officials, I've marched around, I've boycotted, but none of it seems 549 00:53:43.400 --> 00:53:49.599 to be having a big effect. And this is really an aspect of supremacist 550 00:53:49.679 --> 00:53:52.440 culture, this attitude that everything we do has to have a big effect or 551 00:53:52.519 --> 00:53:55.840 we're not going to be set right. Yeah, yeah, yeah, So 552 00:53:55.920 --> 00:53:59.960 I would say to anybody who's in that position, just do your small, 553 00:54:00.079 --> 00:54:05.719 humble part right, because we're just each doing our little part and it is 554 00:54:05.760 --> 00:54:10.280 adding up to something. Absolutely, there are real world effects of this mass 555 00:54:10.480 --> 00:54:19.239 movement that's happening worldwide. The recent food drops in GUSA, the sort of 556 00:54:19.280 --> 00:54:24.960 holding back of the Israeli government from full on invading RUFA. These are all 557 00:54:27.559 --> 00:54:32.920 absolutely because of the protests and the various things that are going on with pro 558 00:54:34.000 --> 00:54:38.599 Poustinian movements. So you may not individually be able to appoint to an effect 559 00:54:38.679 --> 00:54:44.039 you're having, but that is totally fine. You can just join in with 560 00:54:44.119 --> 00:54:50.559 the rest of us gloves and do your little part. The other thing is 561 00:54:50.679 --> 00:54:55.599 people who are free to participate. So what you know, you said it 562 00:54:55.679 --> 00:55:00.719 seems daunting in some way, and I think there's a lot around that. 563 00:55:01.880 --> 00:55:08.239 I suspect, given how few of my fellow spiritual teachers are coming out and 564 00:55:08.280 --> 00:55:15.519 saying anything about this at all, that they are afraid of losing money or 565 00:55:15.599 --> 00:55:22.920 of somehow being or you know, taken to task by their own students and 566 00:55:23.199 --> 00:55:30.480 losing reputation or losing students or something like that. And I just think in 567 00:55:30.639 --> 00:55:42.960 general that to express to embody the wisdom of the heart, regardless of the 568 00:55:43.039 --> 00:55:45.960 loss, as our job, like in any sphere, not just the sphere 569 00:55:46.679 --> 00:55:57.360 we are as teachers, I think, bound to do our utmost, to 570 00:55:57.519 --> 00:56:01.559 be following the wisdom of the heart wherever it leads us and whatever it prompts 571 00:56:01.639 --> 00:56:07.159 us to do, regardless of what the cost might be, even the cost 572 00:56:07.239 --> 00:56:12.239 of our own lives. So all, you know, if it's if someone 573 00:56:12.280 --> 00:56:16.239 feels moved to do something, especially spiritual teachers or leaders of some sort, 574 00:56:17.599 --> 00:56:22.800 but then they feel anxiety because they're worried about what they might lose, I 575 00:56:22.840 --> 00:56:32.960 would say you have some deep self investigation needs to happen, and maybe recalibration 576 00:56:35.639 --> 00:56:39.840 of what's actually important. So you know, then there's just the general anxiety 577 00:56:39.920 --> 00:56:47.239 that infects the online scene. And you know, for a lot of people, 578 00:56:47.280 --> 00:56:51.320 which is what does everyone think of me? You know, how is 579 00:56:51.320 --> 00:56:57.760 this going to be received? And I would just say to those people again, 580 00:57:00.440 --> 00:57:06.519 this is a very extreme moment in human history, and you will not 581 00:57:06.760 --> 00:57:08.960 like it. If you look back and you didn't participate because you were afraid 582 00:57:09.119 --> 00:57:14.760 of pushback from your friends, you will not feel good about yourself. So 583 00:57:14.800 --> 00:57:19.719 if you want to participate but you're holding back because you're afraid of what someone 584 00:57:19.719 --> 00:57:22.159 else might think of you, or you're afraid that you don't know enough to 585 00:57:22.239 --> 00:57:25.840 say something, anybody can say ceasefire. You don't need to know anything to 586 00:57:25.840 --> 00:57:30.239 say that other than that tens of thousands of people are getting slaughtered. I 587 00:57:30.480 --> 00:57:36.280 you don't need a single other historical fact. Ugh, So you know, 588 00:57:36.519 --> 00:57:40.480 just think about what you're going to feel in a few years if you haven't 589 00:57:40.519 --> 00:57:46.800 expressed what you want to express right now. And then there's I would say 590 00:57:47.000 --> 00:57:54.639 another category of people, which is people of Jewish ancestry. And for those 591 00:57:54.719 --> 00:58:02.000 people the question is much much much more complicated. There is one thing I 592 00:58:02.039 --> 00:58:08.039 discovered, which I actually didn't know until after October seventh, was the degree 593 00:58:08.079 --> 00:58:15.599 to which the Jewish education in the United States, and I'm assuming elsewhere outside 594 00:58:15.599 --> 00:58:23.199 of Israel indoctrinates people into Zionism, and the degree to which that has been 595 00:58:24.119 --> 00:58:32.960 purposefully knit into religious views and has created vectors for relationships and a sense of 596 00:58:34.000 --> 00:58:43.840 community. So it takes a lot of courage to see that, and it 597 00:58:43.880 --> 00:58:49.840 takes a lot of courage to even allow yourself to look at the resources that 598 00:58:49.880 --> 00:58:53.840 would give you more clarity around that. I mean, I've had some students 599 00:58:53.840 --> 00:58:59.480 of mine who have been very courageous in, you know, kind of unpacking 600 00:58:59.559 --> 00:59:05.719 that edge ucation that they've had and read and learning new ways of looking at 601 00:59:05.719 --> 00:59:08.880 things and more clear ways of looking at things. I've had other students and 602 00:59:09.039 --> 00:59:19.400 colleagues of the spiritual teachers who absolutely refute Jewish people who absolutely refuse to even 603 00:59:19.559 --> 00:59:25.360 look at or read anything that contradicts the education, and I would say, 604 00:59:25.400 --> 00:59:31.079 the manipulation that they've grown up with. So you know, they're so scared 605 00:59:31.119 --> 00:59:37.159 they won't even do that because it's like a house of cards, and I 606 00:59:37.199 --> 00:59:42.559 think somewhere in them they recognize that. But you know, there is the 607 00:59:43.280 --> 00:59:46.599 very good chance that there will be a loss of relationship, of breaks and 608 00:59:46.679 --> 00:59:52.599 communication, maybe even loss of community. There are also some students in my 609 00:59:53.639 --> 00:59:58.039 community that have been dealing with this for a long time, you know, 610 00:59:58.079 --> 01:00:00.599 that have this It didn't just start on October seventh, you know, they 611 01:00:00.639 --> 01:00:06.920 had other experiences earlier on that kind of undermine the view that they'd been brought 612 01:00:07.039 --> 01:00:12.960 up with about Palestine and Palestinians and Israel. And they've been working through this 613 01:00:13.079 --> 01:00:16.440 stuff for years and years and years. This is like a process of de 614 01:00:16.639 --> 01:00:22.760 indoctrination. It's like coming out of a cult that involves all your friends and 615 01:00:22.840 --> 01:00:29.159 all your family, right, So it's almost like this totalizing form of life 616 01:00:29.199 --> 01:00:35.400 that you have to come out of in order to just let in the actual 617 01:00:35.519 --> 01:00:40.960 history, the historical facts which haven't been available to a lot of people with 618 01:00:44.480 --> 01:00:47.880 what has come to be a traditional Jewish education. So there's many, many 619 01:00:47.960 --> 01:00:53.519 things happening out there, And I would just say that as practitioners, I'll 620 01:00:53.519 --> 01:00:59.079 just speak to anyone who's doing any spiritual practitioner of practice of any sort, 621 01:00:59.159 --> 01:01:01.960 you know, whether it's what I'm doing, or whether it's Jewish practice or 622 01:01:02.199 --> 01:01:12.400 any other practice. Clarity is an honesty are indispensable for getting closer to God. 623 01:01:13.280 --> 01:01:17.239 You cannot do without clarity and honesty. It just doesn't fly. And 624 01:01:19.280 --> 01:01:24.599 so as practitioners, as spiritual people or religious people, however you want it, 625 01:01:24.639 --> 01:01:30.360 define yourself, or just people trying to find out about reality, we 626 01:01:30.519 --> 01:01:37.840 have to dig in and find the courage to get the information we need and 627 01:01:37.880 --> 01:01:43.920 the honesty to look at how we've been operating with what kinds of concepts and 628 01:01:43.960 --> 01:01:49.679 suppositions. Well, that's a good way to segue into the last kind of 629 01:01:49.719 --> 01:01:54.400 topic that I wanted to speak to you about, which well we've already been 630 01:01:54.440 --> 01:02:00.519 speaking about it a little bit. But essentially the distinction between conception rule versus 631 01:02:00.519 --> 01:02:07.079 heart based ways of participating politically. You know, you've been saying a lot 632 01:02:07.119 --> 01:02:12.079 about, you know, being moved by the heart, but of course there 633 01:02:12.119 --> 01:02:15.719 could be others who feel that they are being motivated by the heart and it's 634 01:02:15.800 --> 01:02:20.079 leading them in a totally different direction. And so there's this the reality of 635 01:02:20.119 --> 01:02:25.400 the way in which whether it's ideology or manipulation or certain narratives that are you 636 01:02:25.440 --> 01:02:32.559 know, particularly salient in a culture, you know, construe the feelings of 637 01:02:32.559 --> 01:02:37.639 the heart. In a particular way. So what is the role of of 638 01:02:37.960 --> 01:02:40.760 what is the distinction being made here for you between conceptual and heart based ways 639 01:02:40.800 --> 01:02:45.800 of participating? And then what is kind of the role again of of of 640 01:02:45.800 --> 01:02:53.079 of harnessing concepts in a way that will guide the heart to perhaps a more 641 01:02:53.239 --> 01:02:58.760 just conclusion. So when I say the heart, I wasn't talking about like 642 01:02:59.360 --> 01:03:02.599 ordinary emotional heart. I wasn't talking about the heart and the way we talk 643 01:03:02.639 --> 01:03:07.400 about it in popular culture. So of course I can feel lots of things 644 01:03:07.440 --> 01:03:14.599 and say, you know, my heart is telling me that he's not really 645 01:03:14.639 --> 01:03:21.679 a stalker. I should give him another cha. You know, there's all 646 01:03:21.760 --> 01:03:28.679 kinds of things that we can talk ourselves into as being like this my truth 647 01:03:28.840 --> 01:03:32.320 or something like that, which are really just our karmic habit patterns. Right, 648 01:03:35.280 --> 01:03:39.880 when I talk about the heart, I'm talking about the advent of contact 649 01:03:39.960 --> 01:03:45.079 with that primordial wisdom. So I was really talking about it only in the 650 01:03:45.079 --> 01:03:52.960 context of this tradition and how it look uses the heart as a symbol for 651 01:03:52.559 --> 01:04:00.360 the base the nature of reality, and that absolutely clear was and devotion that 652 01:04:00.440 --> 01:04:04.840 comes through when we encounter that. So I just want to make that clear. 653 01:04:06.119 --> 01:04:12.079 But and I also want to make clear that there's there's room for concepts 654 01:04:12.079 --> 01:04:20.079 and intellect guiding us when we don't have as much access to that direct wisdom. 655 01:04:20.880 --> 01:04:26.199 So one of the things that I learned as someone who's been involved in 656 01:04:26.239 --> 01:04:32.920 political movements all the time for most of my life is that we want to 657 01:04:33.119 --> 01:04:40.639 listen to the people who are being most harved and try to be allies to 658 01:04:40.719 --> 01:04:43.599 them by doing what they want us to do. I mean, that's a 659 01:04:44.239 --> 01:04:49.000 precept, you could almost say, right, And so what Palestinians are asking 660 01:04:49.119 --> 01:04:58.039 us to do is to keep their situation in the public eye. They are 661 01:04:58.400 --> 01:05:02.480 begging us to re post their posts on social media, to like them, 662 01:05:02.519 --> 01:05:10.559 to elevate them. So, because you know, given the absence of any 663 01:05:11.960 --> 01:05:17.559 support and the actual positive harm that's being done by governments and the lassitude of 664 01:05:18.280 --> 01:05:26.199 organizations like the UN, they see the public that activated public as their main 665 01:05:26.519 --> 01:05:34.320 vehicle for change at the moment. So they are asking us to maintain the 666 01:05:34.400 --> 01:05:41.599 visibility of what's happening in Palestine by posting, by talking about it, by 667 01:05:41.760 --> 01:05:47.159 demonstrating, et cetera. So, if we want a precept to follower or 668 01:05:47.280 --> 01:05:53.920 concept to follow, it would be to do what is being asked of us 669 01:05:53.960 --> 01:05:59.079 by the people that are being lost harmed. So that was really beautiful Chambavie. 670 01:05:59.159 --> 01:06:04.199 And there's been and I feel like a lot of really relevant considerations reflections. 671 01:06:04.760 --> 01:06:10.719 You you know, you directly speak to certain fears and anxieties and thoughts 672 01:06:10.760 --> 01:06:14.199 that people are having and things that you've heard coming from other people. And 673 01:06:14.280 --> 01:06:17.480 I've that was really one of my primary goals of having this conversation today was 674 01:06:17.599 --> 01:06:23.760 to speak to some of those you know, internal monologues that people have that 675 01:06:23.800 --> 01:06:27.159 are that are limiting them and to help motivate them. But you know, 676 01:06:27.280 --> 01:06:30.760 just very practically speaking, what are some ways that people can get involved that 677 01:06:30.840 --> 01:06:34.719 perhaps don't you know, what are some I guess resources that you would you 678 01:06:34.719 --> 01:06:40.960 would recommend in also some ways that you would recommend or suggest people get involved. 679 01:06:41.760 --> 01:06:47.760 So there have been various lists published on social media by Palestinian activists in 680 01:06:47.840 --> 01:06:53.840 GUSA and Palestine in general and also in the diaspora about what we should do, 681 01:06:54.239 --> 01:06:58.679 and you know, some of them are kind of ordered in like levels 682 01:06:58.719 --> 01:07:03.719 of deepening engagement. The number one thing on all of those lists is learn 683 01:07:04.000 --> 01:07:10.079 more about the history of Palisa in the situation in Palestine. I know that 684 01:07:10.639 --> 01:07:16.639 when October seventh happened, some students I have demanded that I condemn Hamas. 685 01:07:17.639 --> 01:07:23.159 I didn't even know who Humas was. So I said, you know, 686 01:07:23.239 --> 01:07:27.960 I need to learn more. You need to back off. So I said, 687 01:07:28.400 --> 01:07:30.280 you know, if you asked me before October seventh who Hamas was, 688 01:07:30.280 --> 01:07:34.039 I wouldn't have been able to answer. So I've basically gotten, you know, 689 01:07:34.079 --> 01:07:38.880 the equivalent of an undergraduate degree in one year of a master's degree. 690 01:07:39.079 --> 01:07:45.320 Since October seventh, I basically knew that there was apartheid in Palestine, but 691 01:07:45.599 --> 01:07:49.800 I didn't really know much more. And I knew there had been uprisings and 692 01:07:49.880 --> 01:07:54.719 things like that, but I had to learn all this myself. So the 693 01:07:54.840 --> 01:08:00.320 number one thing on those lists is to learn to link the facts, and 694 01:08:00.840 --> 01:08:04.000 there's many many resources out there that you can use. One of the best 695 01:08:04.039 --> 01:08:11.960 resources is Jewish Voice for Peace. Their website has a lot of learning tools 696 01:08:11.960 --> 01:08:16.720 on it that you can look to. There is a really wonderful history if 697 01:08:16.760 --> 01:08:21.279 you're into reading a slightly more academic book called The One hundred Years War on 698 01:08:21.399 --> 01:08:29.039 Palestine by Rashik Khaladi, a Palestinian historian. That book just blew my mind 699 01:08:29.159 --> 01:08:33.079 when I read read it, even the first couple chapters, the early history 700 01:08:33.079 --> 01:08:36.640 of Zionism. If you don't know about it, it is mind blowing. 701 01:08:38.359 --> 01:08:43.399 And you're seeing that the colonial project, the project of ethnic cleansing, was 702 01:08:43.439 --> 01:08:48.760 built into Zionism from its inception. I had no idea about that. So 703 01:08:49.239 --> 01:08:54.000 that's really worth looking into, even if you only read the first couple chapters. 704 01:08:54.479 --> 01:09:00.359 And then there are news outlets where you can get better analysis of what's 705 01:09:00.399 --> 01:09:04.960 happening, and my favorite is really the Electronic Antifada. They've been around for 706 01:09:05.000 --> 01:09:10.439 a long time. They have a very unique style of reporting, and they 707 01:09:10.479 --> 01:09:17.039 put reports out nearly every day, and they're really, you know, kind 708 01:09:17.079 --> 01:09:26.479 of participant analysts. They are so vulnerable online and expressing their emotions and their 709 01:09:26.520 --> 01:09:30.880 relations to things in a very very beautiful way, and yet they're doing this 710 01:09:30.039 --> 01:09:36.920 really hard hitting investigative reporting. So I would recommend the Electronic Antifada and Nadie. 711 01:09:36.920 --> 01:09:43.520 Most importantly is to be following people on Instagram who are reporting from the 712 01:09:43.560 --> 01:09:49.880 ground in Gussa and from the diaspora. There are also some wonderful, wonderful 713 01:09:50.680 --> 01:09:56.479 documentaries that I saw that also really open my eyes. One of them is 714 01:09:56.479 --> 01:10:00.640 called Tantura. It's an investigation by an Israeli fil filmmaker of one of the 715 01:10:00.720 --> 01:10:08.960 villages that was taken by sort of the proto Israeli army in nineteen forty eight 716 01:10:09.039 --> 01:10:15.680 during the beginning of the Nakba, with the catastrophe the Palestinian Holocaust. There's 717 01:10:15.720 --> 01:10:24.640 also another incredible documentary called Five Broken Cameras that is by a Palestinian documentarian and 718 01:10:24.680 --> 01:10:29.359 it refers to the five cameras that got broken by Israeli forces when he was 719 01:10:29.399 --> 01:10:32.159 trying to film what was happening in his village. And it's about the story 720 01:10:32.199 --> 01:10:39.279 of one village's fight against encroachment from an illegal Israeli settlement. And then there's 721 01:10:39.319 --> 01:10:45.279 the new film Israelism. It's a documentary about American Jewish people who are just 722 01:10:45.399 --> 01:10:51.640 discovering all this stuff too and having to sort of reinvent themselves in the face 723 01:10:51.680 --> 01:10:55.720 of all of this new knowledge. So there's a lot of things out there. 724 01:10:56.119 --> 01:11:00.880 I put together a reading list for people like myself who started out not 725 01:11:01.039 --> 01:11:06.720 knowing enough. It's really like a reading list for beginners with which with all 726 01:11:06.760 --> 01:11:10.880 of these resources on it, and I can send that to you. Jacob 727 01:11:10.920 --> 01:11:13.960 at the end the link to that. Yeah, that would be great, 728 01:11:14.119 --> 01:11:16.680 we could have that on here. So learning is always the first step, 729 01:11:17.800 --> 01:11:23.560 and then the second step is like discussing with other people, uh you know, 730 01:11:23.600 --> 01:11:27.880 people in your circle to enhance them deep in that learning, and then 731 01:11:28.760 --> 01:11:34.399 uh you know, learning online, but also then calling our elected officials might 732 01:11:34.399 --> 01:11:42.359 be a next step, or going finding out what people are boycotting in order 733 01:11:42.399 --> 01:11:46.640 to apply economic pressure. And then of course things that are more engaged would 734 01:11:46.680 --> 01:11:55.279 be demonstrating and and getting involved in more mass movement types of things. So 735 01:11:55.319 --> 01:11:59.960 there's really you know, and oh, I'm sorry I left out like posting, 736 01:12:00.159 --> 01:12:04.600 reposting, elevating Palestinian voices, et cetera. So there's like a gradation 737 01:12:04.760 --> 01:12:12.000 of things one can do very very practically, but I think learning the facts 738 01:12:12.079 --> 01:12:18.479 is important. Yeah to all of that, Thank you, Schanbavie. There's 739 01:12:18.640 --> 01:12:25.840 so much really timely and important reflections in here, and I know that people 740 01:12:25.880 --> 01:12:27.840 are going to get a lot out of it, So thank you so much 741 01:12:28.359 --> 01:12:32.199 for spending some time with me. Before you go. Would you like to 742 01:12:32.239 --> 01:12:35.880 share a little bit about where people can find you. We already mentioned Kindred 743 01:12:35.880 --> 01:12:40.800 one O eight dot Love, but you are also you know, you're the 744 01:12:40.840 --> 01:12:45.960 director of Jayakula, So wherever people can get a hold of you and perhaps 745 01:12:45.079 --> 01:12:48.960 share a little bit about what's coming up for you. If there's any songs 746 01:12:49.079 --> 01:12:55.239 or any events that you're holding sure. So our main nonprofit is Jacula dot 747 01:12:55.359 --> 01:12:59.920 org and we are located in Portland, Oregon, and we also live stream 748 01:13:00.000 --> 01:13:02.880 a lot of stuff since the pandemic started. So we have sots on every 749 01:13:03.439 --> 01:13:09.199 Sunday afternoon at three thirty pm Pacific. You can come live in Portland or 750 01:13:09.279 --> 01:13:15.279 you can live stream and we post the zoom link on a private Facebook page 751 01:13:15.640 --> 01:13:19.640 called Jai Koola News. You can request to be in that and we'll send 752 01:13:19.680 --> 01:13:24.880 you the link or you'll get the link on that page. I have a 753 01:13:24.920 --> 01:13:28.680 Facebook page where I'm very active, and we have an Instagram. My Facebook 754 01:13:28.720 --> 01:13:35.680 pages these days is almost entirely stuff about Palestine, so warning, and our 755 01:13:35.760 --> 01:13:41.119 Instagram page is a little more varied. But we do have a major retreat 756 01:13:41.159 --> 01:13:45.479 coming up for Mahashibaratri. It starts on March seventh. It's a four day 757 01:13:45.520 --> 01:13:51.600 retreat focusing on healing for our world. So we're going to do sod in 758 01:13:51.760 --> 01:13:57.000 us. We're going to do lots of sod in our spiritual practice with the 759 01:13:57.079 --> 01:14:01.680 intent of giving to others through sad enough, so healing through sod enough for 760 01:14:01.760 --> 01:14:05.319 others. And we also have our in the middle of that retreat, our 761 01:14:05.840 --> 01:14:15.760 annual Mahashavaratri Puja. We do offerings to eleven shivellingams and that's open to the 762 01:14:15.760 --> 01:14:17.319 public, so you can come in Portland, Org. And that will also 763 01:14:17.359 --> 01:14:23.119 be live stream on my Facebook page and on our YouTube channel. Excellent. 764 01:14:24.000 --> 01:14:29.800 Wow, well you heard it. It is Jaikula dot org. And well 765 01:14:30.159 --> 01:14:34.600 I'll just let the listeners rewind to hear all of them again. But Shamba 766 01:14:34.680 --> 01:14:38.960 Vi, it has been such a pleasure chatting. It's so nice to see 767 01:14:39.000 --> 01:14:45.319 you, and thank you for being so engaged and spreading the word so much 768 01:14:45.359 --> 01:14:49.640 and elevating the voices right now when people need it most. So thank you 769 01:14:49.680 --> 01:14:53.800 so much for the work that you're doing. Thanks for letting me talk about it.