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By Billy Cunningham, the great American
of courtly assumed that come on November,

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you and I we've been voting on
the putting partial both abortion in check,

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saying sex change operations in the Ohio
Constitution. But now there's been a wrinkle.

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As you may know Kurt Hartman as
a former judge and a constitutional scholar

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and lawyer who's now filed a lawsuit
against the Secretary of State and all others

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saying that this constitutional amendment may be
unconstitutional. It's vague and Kurt Hartman,

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welcome again to the Bill Cunningham Show. Can you give us the headline of

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your lawsuit, which may means we
may not vote in November for this thing.

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Yeah, it's a simple question,
really, Williat's did these petitioners trying

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to put abortion, sex change operations, etc. As a constitutional right?

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Did they simply follow the law when
they did their petition, and we say

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they didn't. You know, they're
trying to amend the constitution to really create

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a very broad, ill defined right. It's not just on abortion. It

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says, you know, the right
to make and carry out one's own reproductive

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decisions, which, as you said, that runs the gamut but they're trying

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to hide really the effect of what's
going on. And state law says,

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hey, if you want to do
this type of petition, if you want

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to propose an amendment to the Ohio
Constitution by a petition, you have that

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right. And that's absolutely they have
that right. But the law says you

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have to put in your petition what
existing laws are going to get thrown out,

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what existing laws are going to be
repealed, and they put none of

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that in their petitions. So you
look at it, and I mean,

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we don't even get into most more
radical stuff. It's a simple stuff.

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You know. We have the heartbeat
Bill in Ohio, which is law that

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says, you know, when there's
a detectable fetal heartbeat about six weeks,

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you know, generally speaking, doctors
cannot perform abortions. We have a law

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that says if a doctor knows his
his or her pay, if the doctor

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knows that his or her patient wants
to get an abortion because the woman thinks

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that the baby may have down syndrome, the doctor cannot perform an abortion.

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We have laws in Ohio that says, hey, parents, you have a

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right with respect to your minor daughter. You know, if you're if a

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minor woman becomes pregnant, they have
to get consent. They can get consent

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from their parent, they can get
consent actually from an adult sibling, or

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they can go to court and get
a and bypass that. But there's a

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process why or by You know,
a woman under eighteen years of age who

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is pregnant cannot just walk into an
abortion mill and get an abortion. There's

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some standards to protect that that interest, and all those laws will go away

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and other laws will away. Do
we know which laws, Kurt Hartman,

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do we know which laws are going
to be taken away? In which laws

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are not going to be taken away? And the second part is does the

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Constitutional Amendment have to state on the
in the print of the law which laws

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will be eliminated? First of all, do we know which laws will now

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be invalidated and which laws will not
be invalidated? The answers, no,

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we know, Well, we know
some of them, and we've identified some

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of them. That's that's the basis
of our lawsuit. You know, this

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heartbeat bill will go away, the
parental consent law will go away. You

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know, the prohibiting of a deportion
because the baby has down syndrome that will

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go away, that will go away. There's other things that may be questionable

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will or will or not go away. So there are some laws that will

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go away. So that's the issue. And so the question, your second

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question of do they have to put
it in the amendment. They don't have

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to put it in the amendment.
But what they have to do is include

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those laws on the petition at least, so though when they walk up to

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somebody say hey, you want to
sign this partition, you know, and

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you know, the person circulating a
petition gives some little spin. They have

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to have in that petition what laws
are going to go away so the person

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can make a fully informed decision.
And I can tell you I've the heart.

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I was at my dog park and
somebody was circulating a petition there.

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They weren't explaining the whole thing to
people, you know, that they were

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doing this short short of hey,
you know you want to support abortion,

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you want abortion to be legal here
or signed here. And so the what

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state law says, the petition itself
has to include the laws that will go

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away. And because they did not, because they did not follow the law,

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that's all we said, you should
have you the petitioners should have followed

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the law. You should have put
in your petition that which was going is

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going to go away if this amendment
is approved. They did none of that,

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and they didn't do it because they
want to keep hiding the true extreme

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nature of this proposal. In fact, this is so extreme, this is

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to the left or rover his weight. I think eighty percent of Americans believe

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that if you've been rape. Incest
is of course a form of rape because

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it's non consensual. But if you've
been raped, you have six weeks or

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so to make a decision to have
an abortion or not. And I think

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most of Ohio wands say not Bill
Cunningham, because it's a terrible way that

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life was created, but nonetheless it's
still a human life. But a lot

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of Ohio Wands believe that about six
to eight to ten weeks that's it.

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Now, this law if passed,
and I have in front of me and

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I'm reading it, that you could
be eight and a half months pregnant and

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because your financial health is affected by
having a baby, you could have an

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abortion, a planned parenthood if this
law passes. Is that the truth?

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Yeah? It is. You look
at that definitive law has a definition of

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what they call fetal viability, but
that's not the standard definition of fetal viability.

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It is so far extreme and it's
got an option. You know,

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if the in the doctor's opinion,
you're the mother's health, you know,

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or welfare is that issue, can
do an abortion at any time. And

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you and I know doctor Haskell,
the you know, the abortionist you know

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who lives in Indian Hill, works
out of Dayton, will find every time

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at nine weeks he will say the
mother's health or her welfare, her mental

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welfare, I'll do this partial birth
abortion and that will be legalized because he

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will give the doctor basically a blank
checked to do do those extreme abortions that

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of people find a port. So
if passed from day one to day two

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eighty anywhere along the line the Constitution, a member would say a woman's life

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or health, and health has been
interpreted to mean emotional health, financial health,

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psychological health, whatever it might be. NFA planned parenthood. Doctor says

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that this woman's financial health would be
effected if shares a baby. The abortion

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could take place from day one through
the ninth month. Is that correct?

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That is correct? It's a mac
track. It's so wide anything will it

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will legalize abortion basically on demand at
any time, because you know how those

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abortion doctors think and operate. It's
you're right, it's the mental health,

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emotional health, financial health, all
that play comes into play, you know.

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And and and that's not us.
That's one. It's it's not a

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moral stance, but it's not us. I think a majority of people in

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Ohio. And I'll tell you,
I've talked to people who are kind of

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inclined to support it, you know, people I know, And I said,

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you know, what's really in this
thing. It's not just you know,

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restoring Roby Wade even it's going far
extreme beyond Rogy Way. And when

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they sat down and actually looked at
it, they were shocked at how extreme

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it was. That was That was
enlightening to me. But that's getting the

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message out. You know, we're
right now saying you didn't tell that people

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anything about what's going to be taken
away if this thing passes, what laws

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are going to be repealed, and
therefore you were obligated to do so under

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the law. So we followed the
lawsuit. We got to follow our brief.

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Tomorrow, busy working on that.
You know, we'll get a decision

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by August fourteenth. There's a hard
deadline for the Supreme Court to make a

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decision by August fourteenth. You know, we've got justices there. Hopefully they

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just simply follow the law and say
you didn't full you the petitioners did not

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follow the law. Your petitions invalid. It can't go on the ballot.

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Did the Secretary of State Frank LaRosa
already decide that, or they decides strictly

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on the petitions, not upon the
substantive law. Because Frank L. Rose

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is not an attorney, so as
a Secretary of State, I know he's

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against these kinds of abortions. But
nonetheless, did anyone at this point decide

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that the language of the ballot amendment? Is anyone decided that is it being

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constitutional? No. The only thing
that's been decided thus far is, and

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we challenge this previously, the only
thing that's been decided before to be start

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fact of a language is that the
language only proposes one constitutional amendment. Whether

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or not that they should have included
what their petitions included has never been addressed.

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Frank LeRose, his duties a secretary
of State, made the determination that

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there were enough valid signatures statewide for
this thing to go on the ballot.

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But it's interesting in his letter that
he wrote saying Okay, I find a

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sufficient number of signatures, he says, unless otherwise directed by judicial decision,

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I'm going to order it placed on
the ballot. So it's like Frank and

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frank LeRose is a party in this
case. He had to be named as

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one of the parties in the case. It's going to be interesting to see,

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you know, when he files his
brief on Friday, what position does

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he take. Does he say the
petition is fine, don't worry that these

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things weren't in there. Or is
he gonna say, yeah, we agree,

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he agrees with what the plane is
and that yes, they should have

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been included it. Supreme Court,
you need to invalidate it. So no

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less people transgender rights in Ohio as
it stands. Now, let's say Mom

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or Dad, unbeknownst to them,
are they suspicious that Michelle goes to school

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and she wants to become Michael or
vice versa. What is the current law

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if Lakota schools or Mason schools or
Deer Park schools, public schools, or

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even most private schools who get state
money. I have a student who want

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to transition, do they have to
notify their parents presently? At present,

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No, there is no. You
know, basically it's a school district by

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school district, school building by school
building determination. I know there are efforts

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in the General Assembly to address that, and I think appropriately. So you

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know, it gets into again,
it gives back to parental rights. Right,

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what is the role of the parents
and what you have in that situation?

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And you've seen it across the country
is where schools and these radical leftist

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teachers are trying to push the parents
out of the equation and say, we

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the state, we the government,
we the teachers, the liberal anya union

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know what's best for your kids.
Parents, you don't get it. You're

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these awards of the state, you
know, and that's not our country,

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never has been. I'm sorry.
That may be a Soviet Union type mentality,

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but I'm sorry. We're in the
United States. We have freedom and

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liberty here, we have parental rights
and that's where it needs to go.

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And the General Assembly is looking at
it. They need to move on and

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I agree with you on that.
But you know, like I said,

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there's amendment that we're looking at this
abortion amendment in November. It wants to

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move parental rights out of the picture
as well. Yeah, that's how dangerous

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this thing is in November. All
right. Now, lastly, the High

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Supreme Court rules, and if they
rule against you, Kurt Hartman, and

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think the language is sufficient as it
is written, is at the end of

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the matter that would be Yeah,
this is a state law matter. It's

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not there's no federal law question involved. So we could not take it to

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the US Supreme Court. You know. It's it's basically we got seven justices

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on the Ohio Supreme Court, four
of them or you know, came to

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the Republican Party, three through the
Democrats. Yo. But like I said,

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the Republicans came out and said,
hey, we believe him following the

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law. It's not our personal decision
one way or another. I said,

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this is a question of simply following
the law. The law says you should

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have included this information on your petition. They did not include any of it.

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Therefore the petitions invalid. So if
it's invalid, what do they do

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then? Did they go back at
seven hundred thousand more signatures put it on

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the ballot next November or some other
time. That will be their option.

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That you always have an option.
Anybody has the option in the right to

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try to propose an amendment. But
they go back to square one. It

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would be off the ballot this November. All your money, all the stuff

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that you dumped into the state to
try, you have these outside influences.

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They could try it again, or
they could say we're moving on to the

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next state. You know, it'd
be great if we voted on these things,

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knowing what we were voting on.
And someone came up to me to

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sign the petition, and all the
person said to me was this is about

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the abortion making sure that reproductive rights
are protected. I said, no,

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I should have engaged in a conversation
with him, because I'm sure it would

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have been explained to me differently than
reality. But I said, I just

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said no. Do the circulators have
a duty to notify those who sign what

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the petition says? They did not
have a duty, an affirmative duty to

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explain everything to them. There is
a summary on the petition that basically says,

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here's a summary of what this is
proposing, and the Attorney General said

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that summary is fair and accurate,
but what circulators do have a duty to

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do is to not misrepresent. So
somebody starts asking questions about it and they

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start misrepresenting what's in the petition.
You know that, then go challenge that.

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But the problem is you only challenge
that petition itself. You could get

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you twenty twenty five signatures thrown out, which when you're dealing with four hundred,

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five hundred thousand signatures, becomes a
drop in a bucket. So no

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affirmative duty, but they do have
a duty to be honest in terms of

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circulation. Are you confident, Kurt
Hartman, Are you confident or not?

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Is this a flyer or do you
think you're gonna win? I think there's

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a strong case here. I really
do you know previous case when we challenge

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the one ballot language, I knew
that was kind of a toss up.

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This one, it's it's a simple
case. Like I said, it's a

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simple case. Simply follow what the
law requires everybody. If you're going proposing

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a constitutional amendment, the wall says
you have to include the text of any

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existing law that's going to be repealed, And of course that was what I've

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seen the text. It doesn't include
that no, you know, And the

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thing is, I know what they're
going to complain, Well, you know

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this petition one was a ten page
petition. They're going to complain, Well,

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if we have to put the text
in of every statue that's going to

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be repealed, the thing would be
one hundred pages long. I say,

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that's your own fault was doing such
a broad sweeping, so radical proposal.

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It wasn't an isolated issue they were
trying to do. When you do something

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in such a broad sweep that they're
looking to do by this amendment, yeah,

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you're going to impact a lot of
existing laws. That's your fault for

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how you want to do this amendment
when you want to try to sneak it

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by the voters. Because that's what
they're doing. They're trying to sneak it

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by all. This is simply about
Rob Wade and abortion rights. No,

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it's not. It's much more,
much, much more than that. I

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don't I wish you success, of
course, but I'm not sure what because

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it comes back again and again and
again. But the more people know,

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the less likely is they're going to
vote yes. They want this thing to

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be done quickly and quit. About
a minute remaining I hear all these spots

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and ads about it takes away democracy
one man, one vote. Can you

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refute that, well, that that's
the August election, That the August state

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election, that's on the commmend of
the constitution. Yeah, but it's basically

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setting a standard to make our constitution
what a constitution is supposed to be,

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not a super legislature, you know. And so just like the federal Constitution,

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you need a supermajority to amend the
federal Constitution, just like the I

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think the Demostate Democratic Party and all
these liberal organizations their own constitutions require a

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supermajority to amend. They're simply saying
we should keep a constitution as a constitution

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which deals with the big picture,
that thirty thousand foot level of government,

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not the minutia of detail of law. I mean, I point out because

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some couple of years ago there was
an effort to put in the constitution a

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regulation of puppy mills in the constitution. I say, you know, it's

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important, Yes, puppy mills need
to be addressed, but not in the

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constitution. That's just legislation goes to
the legislative process. But when you can

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do it just by a simple majority. They say, hey, we'll put

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it in a constitution. We won't
pass the law, we'll try to cram

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it through a constitution. That's not
what a constitution is for. And so

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that's really what it's doing. It's
consistent with the Federal Constitution. It's consistent

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with most constitutions out there that you
need a supermajority to change something that's significant.

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Kurt Hartman, good luck, You're
good. The result when about August.

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I expect the decision on Monday,
August fourteenth. That's the constitutional deadline

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by which the court has to make
a decision. I expect the decision that

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day. Kurt Hartman, thank you
very much for coming on the Bill Cunningham

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Show. Thank you, Kurt.
Bill always glad to be with you.

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God bless America. Let's continue with
more Bill Cunningham News next A News Radio

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seven hundred w oltime. It's finally
summer break. Time to lay out by

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the pool, soak up some sun
and not worry about cleaning your home.

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That's why you need to call my