Let's hang up and let's talk about with lessons fans less and let's listen to
to Lesbie and show less. Let's hang Hi everyone, welcome back to Let's
hang Out, the podcast where girls like girls like boys do, knowing girls
like girls like girls do. Let's do real true. Oh my gosh,
let's change it. Petition for Haley Kyoko to change the lyrics to the song
starting now, Starting now, Yes, from the West Coast, I'm Lee
Holmes Foster from the East Coast, I'm Eli Bridgidia. To those who've been
with us this whole journey, thank you as always for listening. If you're
a new listener, welcome. We're excited to have you here. Here's what's
happening this week, This week Less, This week in the LESBI is a
place where you cant touchbase each episode, but things were going with the podcast
or otherwise. In season seven, we're continuing to release our bonus Patreon episodes.
You going to get those at bit dot lee Slash les Patreon. Our
last two episodes were on The Kids Are all Right and The Fallout, and
our next one will be on Red, White and Royal Blue. We're talking
about the boys the boys are going to get some attention for once. Fine
might as well. Fine, we'll give it to you gay boys. We
also want to remind everyone that you can listen to all the episodes of Journey
to the Heart anywhere you get your podcasts. It's all out and you can
prep for, you know, the second possible path that you're going to hear
starting in June, also in the Greater Less Universe. Listen, it's been
a hot minute. I have talked about Jojo Siwa and it breaks my heart.
It breaks my little art to have to talk about where Jojo is right
now, because I'm sure many of you have seen Jojo is rebranding. We're
making a pivot, you know, and we're pivoting in a way that feels
like maybe a little tone deaf. It's so rough, it's a little it's
kind of it's kind of rough. It's kind of rough, and I'm like,
listen, I want to be rooting for you, Jojo. I want
to be behind you. You know, nobody wants to be behind you more
than me, Jojo. But it's gosh, you're making it. She's making
it's so hard. Okay, So let's let's discussing. So One of the
things that happened is she has decided to rebrand herself as a bad girl,
right quote unquote. So she's telling but I feel like, if you have
to say you're a bad girl, you're not a bad girl. No,
you know what I mean. She's like hard, Oh, I'm the first,
and she keeps Also she said she's invented a new genre of music.
It's all called And I feel like the big theme here is I think tone
deaf. You're right is the right word. It's like, never had access
to a computer. Yeah, like I've never been given any sort of his
never listen to an album. I can't even fathom. I feel like we
should wouldn't understand that you're not the first person to ever become a bad girl
quote unquote, and you're not to gay, be gay and or to make
gay pop music. I think we should we should just like do a whole
episode on this la because honestly, I have so many things to say about
what is happening, and some of the takes that I've seen that I think
are like actually really great, and I feel like we could talk a little
bit about like what's going wrong and how could you course correct at this point
or like what is good? Like I just feel like I have a lot
of thoughts on this actually, and there's just there are things about it that
are like so avoidable and so like just silly unnecessary about what's happening. And
it feels like it's mostly like a like pr mistake, do you know what
I mean? And I'm like, I it's there's no need for this,
Like there's no need for it to be going down this way. It's so
silly. It's like doubling down to I feel like it's like girl just just
apologize, yes, but she's doubling down in a way that it's also like
I feel like it's a really interesting case study in what happens when you are
not educated about a lot of like queer things. You know, yeah,
and you're just like I am gay, but I'm not in gay and like
also there's a whole there's a whole other layer to Jojo ceo, which I
feel bad about, which is just like the child starve at all, Yes,
right, sure, the child starve it all. And the like you're
young, like I get it, are not steeped in this context of like
queer knowledge of history and like just there's a lot of stuff where like,
it's interesting to me the way that this is being handled and from a queer
perspective. I'm like, there's actually so much to dive into, so let's
maybe we'll just be I'm sorry, but it's so much. We're going to
dive in and talk about it more because I think we have a lot,
there's a lot to discuss, and I think it's it's illuminating in like a
queer perspective way that I actually find really fascinating. Also, in other gay
news, women's basketball has but having a moment, yes, And I feel
like the funniest part about it is that, like there's all these memes that
are like women's basketball and what lesbians have been telling us this whole time.
Yes, yes, my other of course, my other favorite meme is people
being like this is a big week for lesbians where everyone is into women's basketball
and the moon. Honestly, so true. I know, why don't we
talk about the eclipse. It's a time, it's a time to be a
queer lady is astrology and tall women like that's it. That's it. Okay,
this next well point, Ellie, I specifically didn't put a whole lot
of information because I want you to be experiencing this in real time for everyone
to enjoy. Okay. So there's a new study, research study that was
done. Okay, and I want you to this is for for real the
headline, NBC News headline, New research helps explain why lesbians report more orgasms
than straight women, Okay, Okay. And so here's the thing. So
they did this whole study because they were like, isn't it fascinating. They
wanted to look into what's what's been known for a number of years. It's
called the orgasm gap. Why do men report so many more orgasms when they
have sex than women? Right? And it's also been known for years that
lesbians report orgasm rates similar to men. Right. So it's basically like,
people have sex, everybody is having orgasms except straight women, except for straight
women. And so here's the thing. So they did this whole study where
they surveyed women, lesbians, straight women, and bisexual women. And what
they were trying to get an understanding of is like, why is there this
discrepancy? Like what is what is causing this change? Okay, And so
they asked them a number of questions where they asked about things like how important
are orgasms? What are your expectations of having an orgasm? They asked about
things like how much literal stimulation? How much? Like how important do you
feel like orgasms are like in terms of like how actively they're being pursued by
like both people. Okay, So here's what's so funny to me. They
did this whole study and basically they're like, Yeah, everybody goes into sex
wanting to get off, right, Like everybody has similar importance of orgasm.
Bisexual women are like similar rate of like pursuing orgasms regardless of the of the
partner in the in like the hypothetical that they're posing. Okay, but the
only real difference that they found is the expectations of clteral stimulation and orgasms when
the partner is a man, straight women, and bisexual women. Okay.
But here's what I think is so funny is that they did this whole study
and then somehow the outcome of the study is that they were like, oh,
well, the only real difference we can find is the sexual script and
so they're just finding their sexual script as like what are the ideas and expectations
that people have going into sex based on things like you know, like what
they've seen in media, in porn, in whatever, Like is what does
people's picture of sex look like in their heads? And like that's the difference.
And so the difference is that like they have this different sexual script in
their head, and I'm like, how did you do this whole study and
basically find a way to avoid being like the problem is men? Is men?
The problem? They're like, no, no, no, no,
it's the sexual script and You're like, oh, yes, it is men.
And the fact that the bar is literally below ground and they cannot clear
it and nobody wants to hold them accountable for it. That is incredible.
What incredible? No, what are you talking about about? Of course,
who conducted this study? Uh? Great question? This study conducted by men?
Yeah? No, I honestly am I don't know. I don't know
by men with bisexual girlfriends. No, it's a woman. It's a woman
that they're interviewing. It is just it is deeply, deeply disappointing that they're
basically like, yeah, the only difference is like when straight women have sex
with men or when bisexual women have sex with men, their expectation is I'd
love to have an orgasm, I probably won't because yeah exactly why Yeah,
because I will not this man not to give the things that will and like
that is just so so sad, so so sad. But also I feel
like this is another example of like I know that this is the episode we're
about to talk about this in, but like this is following us, Ellie,
this idea is following us, And that's all I have to say about
it. Okay, yes, the heteros yeah, the heater I read this.
The hetero sexual script prioritizes the man's orgasm. Yes, not the man
who is prioritizing his own orgasm, right, yeah, it's the script that
has been written. Yeah yeah, that's he's just a bad script's yeah.
Yeah, yeah that makes sense. I am obsessed with that. Thank you
for sharing. You're welcome. That's what's happening this week. Back to you
Allian Lee, thanks Alienly. We are so excited to bring you episode seventeen
of season seven, Lesbian Master Talk this. First of all, I would
like to say Lee and I chose this topic maybe three minutes ago, and
I think it has to be my favorite episode we've ever done, and it
hasn't even started we're thirty seconds in, so I cannot wait. So here's
here's what's happening. We You might remember this came up on an episode earlier
in the season when we were talking to Nikita that we looked up what is
sort of like a seminal text I think for like queers of a certain age,
right like, this was formational for us, right like, this was
a wait this when did it come out? The Lesbian master Dog did it
about like a while ago. I feel like this was like early aughts,
am I like completely reimagining this in my head. It was published in twenty
eighteen. What yeah, So you're making that up? Then maybe there was
like an uther there might have been an earlier similar version that I'm remembering looking
at Okay, whatever, whatever this is, there's a document that exists that
we find just just so hilarious, wonderful, so delightful, so so joy
giving in its existence that I feel like, I feel like there have to
have been things that existed earlier. I'm sure there were plenty of things that
told you that told you say, yeah, I'm sure this I think is
okay, So that we're going to talk about the Lesbian master Doc today right,
and it's called am I a Lesbian? It's a thirty one page document,
and I think this is like a sort of like combination of various sources
prior to twenty eighteen that someone just put all together right and wrote this comprehensive
thing of like, here's all the reasons you are a lesbian, and some
of I will delightful. This is a quite this is quite a controversial document,
and even that's why I think it's hilarious. It'll be great for us
to talk about. I don't think this is like an end all be all,
Like if you read this document in there things in it like of course
you're lesbian, Like there's so much more nuance to it, but no,
fract that's the answer, la, You can't the answer. This is the
matter. But there are some things that you read and you're like, oh
shit, light bulb, and then other things where I'm like what was this
person writing? I said this before in the previous in the episode when we
talked about it. Part of it also does read like I'm madly in love
with my best friend and I wrote a thesis to be like, yes you
must be gay as well. Yes, Like it's literally like if you used
a pollypocket lunch box in the second grade, you are, yeah, yea
gay bitch. So here's the thing. We it came up. We talked
about it a little bit with THEI Kida, but it's just it's been in
our minds and we wanted to like really give it, yeah, the time
and the consideration and care that it deserves as such a beautiful and absolutely unarguable
piece of evidence of everybody's homosexuality. So you know, listen, I just
I just think we wanted to dive in. So we're literally gonna be.
If you have not, you can look it up. You just google lesbian
master doc is pretty Yes, am I a lesbian under underscore master doc dot
pdf dot pdf. So we're we're just gonna be going through and kind of
like in real time streaming our thoughts about this. Yes, okay, all
right, So let's start from the beginning. The beginning of this doc is
all about compulsory heterosexuality, right, and to you, to you, Lee,
I guess let's just talk about your personal experience with this. Sure,
how much did compet you? You came out sort of relatively early, but
like I feel like, how much compet did you exit did you have to
deal with before you came out? I mean, so, here's the thing
is, like we were just talking about this when we when we did our
fie for a DEBTA episode. Right, it is like comppet even for me
and like I did come out pretty young, is like it's unavoidable. Like
I still remember like actively going into magazines and like cutting out pictures of all
the like you know, the Josh Hart knits of the era and like putting
them up on my wall. Did I care about them at all? No?
But you were like, but this is who all my friends are talking
about, Like they're all into Hyden Christensen. I should be cutting his picture
out. Ooh, you McGregor are so dreamy, even when the reality was
like I was not watching Mula Rouge and picturing myself suck and face with you
and McGregor, like, let's be real, let's be real about that.
That's not what was happening up in this brain, okay, Like I was
not being like, oh yeah, he's so strong in those big arms,
Like it just wasn't it. It wasn't it. But that's who you'd cut
out and put on your wall, because then you could cut out the picture
of the two of them, right, and like, so I mean you
do. It's like you you play that game, you pick the like I
remember, like the crushes that you'd have, like, oh, yeah,
who are you going to tell your friends that you have a crush on?
Who is that? Who's the who are the hot popular guys? Who's it
gonna be? Right for me? I feel like it was always because I
was such a tomboy too, so it was like, oh, yeah,
I'm the only girl with all these like guys playing video games. So it's
like, well, I have to like one of them. Yeah, I
guess I'll pick guess, Yeah, I guess I'll pick like the nicest one,
you know what I mean. I'm like, yeah, sure. And
that's the thing too. So one of the funny things here, so as
we go, as we go on, it says number one, the celebrities,
right, I like fictional men slash male celebrities. Yeah right, love
that. And also I think I've liked men before question mark. It's like
that is a super difficult thing to define, right, because of compulsory heterosexuality.
I was talking about, like I have a crush on this boy in
like second grade right. So it's like, of course you've liked men before,
because it's like what has been pushed on you. And one of the
things that I do like about the stock is it says, I like this
quote, if you don't care about men or but no longer like to be
with them, you can be a lesbian now fun fact fun fat But I
like it. It's it's not illegal. Yeah, you can just do it.
It's a now identity. Right. So it's just it's as much as
some shit in here is like, oh my god, what are you saying.
I appreciate that, like your past relationships don't matter with your current identity.
Yeah, your past relationships don't factor in, right, Yeah, it's
you know what's funny is like not okay, not to like completely throw my
father under the bus, because let's okay, this is a long time ago
everyone. This is when I first came out, and you know, two
thousand and three or whatever, so like we've we've moved past all of this.
But I just I remember when I was in high school. So I
I again, I was watching Buffy, you know, like in real time
when it was happening and we were watching it was before I came out when
Willow started dating Tara on the show, right, And I have like the
most vivid memory of having a conversation with my father where he was like,
He's like, I don't know, just doesn't seem realistic to me. I
specifically remember it because it was happening at such a crucial point of time in
my life, right where I had had boyfriends and stuff. And what he
was saying is he was like, it just doesn't make sense because she's always
dated guys, she's been interested in guys, Like, and how would she
not have known? Right? How would this be like a new development in
college? Right? Like, how could you be that old and not ever
have realized that you're attracted to women as well? And the thing is is,
like, I that is a super common, not just response, but
like it is an incredibly common logical way for straight people to think about something
like this, because it doesn't exist to straight people. Well yeah, because
for straight people, they're like, I've been straight this entire time because that's
the only path that might because I was going on yeah yeah. And so
the thing is is like to them, they're like, well, yeah,
that's always been there. How could you not know something that must have always
been there as well, and it is it gets so lost on them,
the concept of how easily we just shove anything else down and out of the
way and like just put huge blinders on, like starting as kids, right
to be like there is only one way. This is the way, and
you don't realize it until all of a sudden, right, Like I mean
you have to like physically remove those blinders from yourself sometimes like that painfully,
like painfully. You can take a number a number of like far more than
eighteen years until you're a freshman in college, like dating your first and girl.
You know, I'm like, it's so it's so laughable now to look
at that state and be like, well, obviously she didn't realize it because
she'd only dated guys and only had the option of dating guys in front of
her, Like that's so clear, right, yeah, Like she realized it
because she realized she was attracted to this woman and was like binging being the
lights are going off in my head. I Mean. There's a part of
the Lesbian Master doct two that says the common misconception is everyone's born knowing that
they are gay, yes, yes, and and that is and that is
it's such a catch twenty two. It's such a catch twenty two to put
queer people in to be like, hey, we are going to make sure
that you have absolutely no awareness or concept of anything other than heterosexuality. And
then also if you haven't been loudly proclaiming your gayness since you came like out
of the womb with a little rainbow flag, then like we won't believe you.
Yeah, and you're like, get the fuck yeah, Like no,
that's not how it works, Like you can't shove this down our throat and
then not expect us to regurgitate it at you for the first you know,
like however many years it takes, Like that's what that's what happens. Like,
oh, it's so crazy she dated men since she was in high school.
Like of course she did, because yeah, there's no other option.
Well, and you know what else is funny is like I say all the
time, it's like my running my running joke, because I'm always like I
feel like as I get older, I only get gayer. And I think,
actually, all I mean by that is I just like let go of
more and more of compet as I get older. Yes, you know,
like you just learn to realize and identify some of the things that have been
sort of forced onto you by this mentality and realize that like they don't matter
and they're not real and you don't have to hold onto them, you know.
So I feel like the the I do get gayer, good for me,
good for you. And yeah, and also like any, I feel
like it's so complicated because because of comp Like it's sort of what Nikita was
saying too. As a bisexual woman, Compet's even more complicated. And yet
because you're like, okay, am I lesbian? Am I by? Am
I? Like? And it's like you're just like, wait, what the
fuck is happening to my brain? So I I think, like, you
know, there's these things can also exist in your brain and you don't have
to identify as a lesbian. Yes, but it's like competisexuals just as badly
as it affects us, like sometimes worse. You're right, because it is
like it's so much harder to tease out what are the what are the parts
of myself that are genuinely attracted to men versus what are the things that have
just sort of been talking again just get shoved? Yeah. Well, and
also one of the boos of my identity. One of the parts here too,
is like they're like it's possible to recognize that a man is attractive and
not be attracted to him to him yeah, And I feel like that's a
big piece of like when you're younger, you're just like that person is attractive,
yeah, Like that person is nice and sweet and cool, and you're
like like, it's it's this, it's the classic, or like I feel
like I experienced this so much because I let I was in compet till I
was like twenty one years old, right, I was trying so hard to
date man, and there were so many things where I was just like,
oh, it's just not the right person, or oh they're so nice,
and like, oh my god, this is actually killing me when you can't
follow through with this attraction in real life scenarios, because I literally there are
so many times I would remember, like I have this vivid image of I
met this guy, and I I probably told the story before I met this
guy in New York, right, and we were like texting and flirting,
and I was twenty one, like rip before I came out. It's probably
like super close to right before I came out. We're flirting and texting,
and like he invited me to his apartment. And he was older, like
he was like twenty four, twenty five or whatever, so like he had
his own apartment in New York City. So he invites me to his apartment
to watch a movie, and like he starts kissing me, and then like
is trying to do more than that? And like immediately I was like nope,
goodbye, Like I left, I really left, and he was left
very very confused. I mean he was not pushing me to do anything,
but I can understand why he was very confused because it was a super gay
reaction. I mean it was not just like, oh I don't really feel
like this. I freaked out. Like I remember just being like having a
visceral reaction to this man trying to do anything besides kiss me. Yeah,
I don't want it. And he was cute and I thought he was sweet.
I feel like the thing is for me, what I remember the most
about like dating guys, like making out with guys, you know, kind
of like that the guy. I mean, I was in high school still,
so it's not like there was like a ton of pressure to like go
super far but even then, it's like what I remember the most about it
is it's like at the time, it's not like I wasn't enjoying it,
you know, like it was nice you had a boyfriend, like someone wanted
you, like you're fifteen years old. That just it feels like it's nice,
you know, like it's nice to feel like someone like sees you and
wants you, and you're like, wow, I'm hot and desirable to somebody
on earth horeay right, But what I feel like the thing that I remember,
like, to me, the most vivid memories that that are like the
stark contrast between the two is it was so cerebral, you know, like
I vividly remember like like being you know, like oh, making out with
my boyfriend, and like how much thought was going on in my head because
I was like not really in it. Oh. I mean like I was
like I was fully up here, Lee existed in this little space in my
brain where I was like, wow, look at me, I'm making out
with somebody, like you go, you did it. This is here's how
we make out. What do I do now? Okay? Like maybe this
is cool, Like I'll get to tell so like my friends about this on
Monday that it's like, oh, yeah, we made it out here,
like what you know. I'm like I was, there were so many thoughts
happening in my brain, and like my most vivid recollection of like the first
like date I went on with a girl is like we I it was with
my exit jest. We went to the movies. We went to see a
movie and we she like slid her hand over and we like held hands.
I could not tell you a single thing happened. I could tell you nothing
else that like my brain short circuited and it was there was just like just
explosions and fireworks and like just all rational thoughts ceased to exist. I can't
tell you anything else that happened that night because I think I was just like
in a fog of like what is happening to me in my body? What
is going on? I don't understand, right, I'm like there were zero
thoughts, zero thoughts were happening, and like that's the difference to me,
is I'm like, yeah, sure, I was like make it out with
there, like whatever. Yep, Holy god, Holy God. The difference
between that to being like just the slow implosion of like Lee's brain reduced to
a lizard brain of of gainness. I mean that's all it was. I
always just like a small gay lizard hatching and emerging into the world, right,
yes, ten thousand percent. I mean I've said this many times before.
It's like, I don't know if it's not not that. Maybe I
I'm like, I actually don't remember. I probably didn't have anything going on
in my brain. You're correct. All I can remember is that like when
I would kiss kiss men, I literally would say to my sister, I
do not feel a thing like and she was like, you know, maybe
you're feeling what everyone else is feeling. No listeners, I was not feeling
what everyone else is feeling for sure. Also. Okay, so there's another
part of this that says, like your attraction to men, right, let
me just read a few of these because I'm obsessed with this. I can
fantasize about men and find men attractive, but thinking about realistically being with a
man makes my stomach chur It's literally so bad. Oh. This is sort
of what we're talking about with the cerebral part, deciding which guys to be
attracted to, not to date, but to be attracted to based on how
well, they match a mental list of attractive qualities, right, So you
just have a list like, oh, well, I don't like guys because
I haven't met this kind of guy, and like if it was this particular
person and this particular set of traits, then yes, I would be attracted
to them. You know, you know the other one in this list that's
fucking killing me right now, only because it's so again, it's like the
ways that you can look back and be like, ah, fuck, so
this one only developing attraction to a guy after a female friend expresses attraction to
him. And the thing is is like especially when you're when you're me,
and the way that that always sort of presented is you'd be like, oh
yeah, I could have a crush on him too, and therefore that means
I should want to be more like him for no other reason, For no
other reason, I should try to embody those same qualities that my friend finds
attractive in myself because of my also attraction to him and therefore desire for us
to be more similar so that it would work out between us. Yep,
it made perfect time, made so much sense, so much sense at the
time, so much sense, just perfect, totally logical, a logical way
to be not how do I make myself attractive to that man? How do
I become that man? That sounds right. I like this one too about
choosing. This is cracking me up. It says picking a guy at random
to be attracted to that it is choosing to be attracted to a guy at
all, not just choosing to act on it, but flipping your attraction on
like a switch. That's a common lesbian thing because it is true, like
you, how are you gonna just like, oh, yes, I pick
oh, I pick you. Oh, if I have to, you must
be the right person because I have chosen you to be attracted to. Yeah.
Well, And also that flipping attraction on and off, like I mean,
God, bless my, like the last guy I dated in high school,
because it's like I was probably such a bitch to this kid, Like
we were good for a lot of interests. I think we always have like
so much fun hanging out. That's the problem. But I think the thing
is is like again, the the hooking up, the making out. I
was one hundred percent just like I'm up here, and so when I was
like I'm done, I would just be like Okay, bye, and I'm
like, this poor guy, this poor guy was left hanging. So probably
just so badly in ways that like affected me zero percent because I was just
like, and we're done now night. Yeah. Well. Also I feel
like too for me, it was like so easy to break up with them,
and I feel like I was like almost vicious with it, like they
would be like same thing as you. Like, it was like yesterday they
thought we were fine, and today I was like, I'm done. You're
the worst man. It was so bad, it was so bad. This
is one thing I want to say about the Lesbian Master Doc. That is
where I'm like, all right, you're just listing a bunch of random ship
only are mostly being into guys who are gender not conforming, are feminine in
some way. Also, the guys I like are only masculine and embody everything
about masculine manliness. So I'm like, okay, so any any version of
a man right right now, all men, Well it's okay. Also,
other problematic things on this list that I think are so funny, which again
I mean this just makes me laugh in general. But one of them is
you view relationships with men as a chore, burden or just something you must
deal with and to be honest like that is true of many straight straight women.
I know, Like I'm actually a distressing number of straight women I know.
I think Okay, I think that, like, okay, as much
as you want to talk about compet I think the idea in society that straight
women hate men, yes, is also horrible. It's horrible, less reality
based in so much reality that it's like a little concerned. It's concerning,
but I think, but that's why I feel like we need to change the
way like we view straight relationships as well of like, because I do feel
like it can be very confusing. When I was a straight girl, it
was difficult to come out of the closet because you were like, oh,
but all my straight friends talk about men in the same way. Yeah,
right, So it's very confusing where you're like, okay, so yes,
they also hate spending time with men, and I hate spending time with men.
We must all be straight. It's so confusing people, How about we
This is my PSA, Like, start liking your boyfriends, be kind to
them. This is for you straight men. That is my PSA. Two
straight women, like, start talking about your male partners better, and then
I'll believe you're straight okay, which I feel like is also a PSA for
straight guys to be like stop stop sucking mistreating your Yeah, exactly, there's
it's a double edge story. But let's move on to the next section,
which is called relationships with men. Oh wait no, but before that,
I want to read one more that I thought was funny having a lot of
your guy crushes later turn out to be trans women. Incredible, incredible,
were just so good? Why are they so good? Yeah? I just
saw what did I just say? I saw TikTok this week where it was
like it was a couple and they got together and it was like, so
they have a picture and it's like a guy NA and his girlfriend or whatever,
and then it was like they were doing the whole like suppress surprise,
right, and he's like, so, so she came out as a trans
woman, so she's like surprise, surprise. And then the girlfriend is like
realizing I'm more attracted to her that way, and I was like, amazing,
happy for you both. Love this incredible. But yes, let's dive
into the next session section, which is relationships with men. Right, so,
when you're in a relationship with a man, it's so much dread.
Dreading. It feels like an inevitable domestic future with a man. You have
every reason to be happy in a relationship with a man, but you just
aren't. Everything's going really well, but something's missing and you cannot figure out
what that is. Like, so legit if you're trying so hard and it's
not working out, like you're gay, I mean. But again, here's
the thing. This is why I like in terms of the am I lesbian
master doc in terms of like how this can be now confusing or problematic for
people, is like, maybe you're in the wrong relationship covered nowhere in here,
right, Well, yeah, perhaps you are not this man? Yeah
right. Also, I feel like this is a master doc that like the
concept of Ace and Arrow people non existent, non existent, there was I
wish I could search this doc because there's something about asexuality in here. But
yes, agreed, it's like very much talking about if you do feel attraction.
But I do feel like that, Okay. The thing for me about
the compat of it all right, is like I feel like you would realize
if you were Ace or Arrow if you test it out your competent. Yeah,
yeah, but do you know what I'm saying. Like it's like I
feel like the big thing test out feels like a weird thing to say,
but I feel as though if you're not challenging compat in yourself and you know
all these things about you that you're not really interested in men and you just
keep pushing to keep dating men and don't even like try to see if women
might be interesting to you. Like, then I'm like, you you're not
straight? Yeah, you know what I mean. It's like when you're saying
all these things, like when you literally say like I just wish I was
a lesbian. I just couldn't do it, and it's like, okay,
but like have you ever gone on a date with a girl? But you
know it's so funny. I mean, okay, So like here's the thing.
I literally just saw another video of a and like again it was like
this week where and the whole thing is like I props to her. She
was responding to like a super like gross hateful comment whatever about like why gays
shouldn't be considered a protected class and they're like, because you choose to be
gay, but they were like directing it at her, and she's like,
first of all, I'm not gay. If I could choose to be gay,
like I absolutely would and you know, and she like went off on
this whole like, oh, I'm just a really nice response. But it
was just a very funny way to start that response to be like, if
I could choose, I would absolutely choose women, like are you kidding me?
Like, sadly, I'm only attracted to men. And again in that
way where you're just like are you but sweet sweetie, but sweetie, have
you tried it though? Like have you really given it explored that part of
yourself? Yeah, because it is like because it is a very pet is
fucking hard. It's strong, dude, It's so strong. It's so strong.
I'm like sometimes you see videos like that, I'm just like, I
like, I I want to check back in in two years, you know,
like I want to update when you get your first girlfriend. Like I
mean, but like we've all done that, Like we've all had those friends
sometimes where you have that conversation with them and you're just like, oh,
so head pat sweety, like honey, this is not what it should sound
like like that, that's not what it should and if it is, like
that's a depressing straight life to live. Yes, like something I want.
I want you to be attracted to men, like if you are straight,
I really want you to be attracted to men like I legitimately do. I
want you to have a fun, exciting life with your partner you love and
you're attracted to you. It's funny, easy. I mean again, listen,
we're we're recording this on the week of our v for Vendetta, like
Facebook tobacle that you've probably heard us talk about already. So I I just
have one of those comments that someone left like seared in my brain or something,
because there was like someone who left to comment and they were saying something
about like oh, like yeah, because you just you just need to project
this on everyone to like make yourself feel more normal. So like you need
to like tell yourself everyone is gay so that like you can feel happy about
yourself. And I was just like, dude, like I being gay is
the fucking best, Like I don't understand why you think I would need to
wish this on other people to make me feel better. I feel fucking great.
This is fantastic. Being gay is amazing, Like why would I want
to be straight? That sounds awful to me? Personally couldn't. I don't
know, man, Like, what's distressing to me is like how unhappy many
straight people seem to feel about their state of affairs. Like I'm actually I'm
good. I'm good. My god, I don't I don't need anything.
I'm great. Like what do you what are you talking about? I need
to project this on other people. I'm like, maybe if other people stop
being like, god, I wish I didn't have to be straight. I'm
like, well, then we have to have this conversation. I mean,
I don't wish I wasn't gay. Actually, ever, I'm like, I
I don't know what to tell you. This is not a problem in my
life. I don't sit here like you know, sitting I wish that I
was less alone. It's like, actually everyone in my life's case so like,
I don't actually need more gay friends. I'm good. I'm like,
actually this is this is like the extreme best thing. What do you what
are you talking about? We're just trying to welcome you all into our space,
like we want you to be happy. That's all we're saying. Okay,
let's take a quick break. We're gonna come back and dive into some
more of this master Doc. Because we're having a great time. So I
would like to dive into the early interest in women section. Yes please,
because oh my god, this is just the like if you're gay, you're
gay, Like this is like I want to to kiss your female best friend
on the mouse for literally any reason to practice for boys included any of you
who ever practiced for boys, Like, I'm sorry, I was not even
that gay, Like that's something else. Is it disappointing if I'm like none
of my friends ever wanted to practice for the boys. Well, that's what
I'm saying to you. I'm like, it's actually tough. Thing exactly started
depressing. But you know what's funny. Then maybe this will be contradictory to
the master doc. I was so gay that I was scared to kiss a
girl. Oh yeah, So it's also like a struggle of like if you
internally, like I had this thing where I was like, I know,
if I kiss a girl, I'm gonna like it, even if it was
like push deep down and I couldn't quite articulate it, like I think practicing
for the boys would have wrecked me. Oh yes, it would have been
done. Yeah, I couldn't like this. I still remember like and I
I mean you probably had a similar experience Ellie, like being in theater.
Like people are physical, people are cuddling, people are handsy, people are
like in ways that sometimes you're like, okay, this is fine. Act
normal, act normal, act normal. Yes, it's a lot speaking of
that, getting butterflies or feeling like you can't get close enough when cuddling with
a close female friendly let's not talk about it that. I also think we're
now getting in to the uncomfortable. Listen, the talking about how unattracted to
men we were is like way easier than the like no, no, fuck
stop it. I know it's it's so embarrassing, but you know what,
it's fine. Well, is also the theater of it, all right,
I literally because theater people are so physical with each other. Yes, it's
like I could be like, oh my god, like I just love sitting
in the same seat as my best friend, Like I don't to be you
know, she does not need to be sitting on my lap right now.
I just want to borrow their sweatshirt. Yeah, I just want to make
sure, Oh she's not feeling cozy, Oh she's not feeling let me make
sure I stroke her hair and I'll get her water and like, don't worry,
like I'm gonna take care of you. Oh god, listen, this
is also so funny. I mean, this is very this is the most
gay right having had an unusually close relationship with a female friend growing up that
was different and special in a way you just couldn't articulate. Sorry, I
gotta, I actually gotta. I have never bet this is really funny,
funny story. I actually gotta get somemmers. All right, well, scheduled,
rescheduled this, you know, do you want me to really get you?
This is gonna be a good when a female friend is treated badly by
a man, having your protective thoughts turned in the direction of if I was
him, I'd never do that to her, by you doing me like this?
What is this? I mean, Lee, you know you're gay,
so these artists I gotta be like this. Yeah, but it's like,
but you know what's funny is like this is still the stuff that to me
is like it's so embarrassing to look back at like how blind I was.
It's so because you just look back and you're like you dumb fucking gay idiot,
Like you you little gay moron. What were you doing? Yeah?
You doing, oh, just trying to be just trying to be that stand
in emotional boyfriend. Just you were doing your bestle just yeah, just trying
to be a better boyfriend to all your friends than their boyfriends were. Okay,
yes, yes, I so desperately wanted to be and realistically I would
you were. Yeah, it's okay, you would have been. We can
validate you on that. All right. Okay, you know what, where's
one of these that I can let's get Let's throw Ellie under the bus here,
what can we do? Oh? The funniest one for me? Okay,
so this is in the straight version of you, right and also okay,
so here, let me read you one other one that's like very relatable
to our show, having your favorite character in every show, be that one
gay coated or butch like looking women like she go from Kimbossible. Yes,
that's just lessing out listeners. That one's for you. I just really,
really, deeply, deeply cared about the characters of Gabrielle Inzena and Will exactly
for no particular for no reasons, certainly nothing to do with them being my
type or being in any way attrected to them. Don't know what you're talking
about. Okay, off my back, Ellie. This straight version is really
this one's so funny. Being really into how women look esthetically just an artistic
just an artistic interest because it's so true. Like I will constantly be like
it's just an objective fact that women are hotter than men, Like there's nothing
you can do about it, you know what I mean. It's like I'm
straight, but like we all agree, right, like everyone thinks that.
Right. But okay, but here's the other. Here's the other thing that
kills me is like the top thing on this list is thinking that all straight
girls feel least some attraction to women. And like again in terms of just
like straight people you gotta get your shit together. Is like the number of
women that I know who are like, I'm totally straight, but like if
I could choose like I would, I would totally be attracted to him because
like, women are just beautiful. I just wish I was attracted to them
that way. And you're like, uh, so are you? Or yeah,
exactly excuse me, but but hold on here, I don't know if
this like that's a thing, Like these things are even my straight friends would
agree with me, right because women are more attractive than them. But you
know what else, Okay, sorry not to like not to totally go here,
but we're gonna totally go here. Great. You know what else is
funny is like, do you feel like there's there's one thing that I feel
like I don't see anywhere in here? And I wonder if it's because they
wanted to keep this to like a certain rating level. I don't know,
but I feel like something, Okay, Listen. I went to Mount Holyoke
College women's college, a whole lot of gay college, a lot of coming
out, a lot of exploring college, okay, and I feel like one
of the things that I would hear all the time. Cannot tell you how
many straight quote straight girls at the time until till they got over that that
I heard say some variation of exactly what we were just saying, right of
like, oh my god, I totally like I wish I was gay because
like, women are so beautiful. I just don't think I could do vaginas
right. And the amount that also there's like I don't cophit is like not
quite the right word for it. It's like some flavor of like misogynist,
misogynst whatever it is misogyny because it is, well, vaginas are so gross
whatever, and it's like they're so yucky. I don't know, man,
it's so moist down there. And like the number of like people that I
heard eat that until they dated their first girl and then never said it again
again. So I just I feel like there's also something in it that it's
like sometimes when you hear women who are like I totally, oh my god,
I would totally. I wish I was attracted, Like I wish I
was a lesbian. I wish I could be with women, but like I
don't know, I just I just couldn't do it, you know, like
it's just not for me. But it definitely is something misogynistic, it is
something competitive of it all is that oh is that? Oh well, sex
between a sex between a man and a woman is like normal and natural,
and sex between two women like has to be like not yeah right, It's
like the same way that it's just like manner the default right in general,
like men are the defaults. If if a man is bisexual, he's gay.
If a woman's bisexual, she's straight. It's like that kind of thing
of like, yeah, which to be ver just to clarify, I don't
believe that, but you know how like that's how no, no, but
I get like, but the the sort of dominant narrative that takes over a
lot. Yeah. Also, can we talk about can we talk about having
this ballpoint that says having like half your friend group from school turned out to
be LGBT plus And it's so true. It's so true. Like listen,
if you went to high school and your ten uyears out and like you know,
half to more of your friend group came out as gay, bitchy gay,
I'm sorry you joined the parade. Yes, we'll Also, I mean
I've talked about this on a Patreon episode on The Kids Are All Right.
That was like the worst for me where I was like all my friends are
gay and I'm so confused. I'm like, why am I so straight?
Yeah? Why are they all coming out to be and forcing me to look
at my own sexuality? Like please stop so insane? Yeah, this is
also I'm now I'm just ringing so much shit. I feel like we keep
going back forth. Ellie, I can't tell for like this document is problematic
because it's gonna make you think every single person is gay. Like this document
is a document and advisle I feel like we flip flopped sentence to sentence and
honestly there's no wrong answer here. Well because here's this is what the doc
is. This is I do feel like, Okay, as ridiculous as this,
Like, I think if you're like a nuanced human being and if you
can understand nuance, right you, if you are questioning your sexuality, could
read this and it might unlock some shit for you and be like I'm not
alone. Yeah, I do think. I think it's the fact that it
uses the word lesbian. Yes, is I think the big problem with it
because a lot of bisexual and queer women have felt these things as well.
So I think the problematic part about it is that it's like you must be
a lesbian and it's like really just saying, okay, do you have are
you attracted to women in however whatever however that happens? Yeah, right,
but there's there's it's just it's just hard. It's so hard out here when
straight women are really doing all this talking all this shit about like you said,
you are really doing the most to like fit the lesbian master. They
really fit the lesbian master talk. Yeah, it's like a whole lot and
well and also because it's it's tricky because some of them. Okay, so
let me read this one and I will say this is like I feel like
this is not super accurate. You get anxiety around men and feel more comfortable
in settings with women. That line is just women. Yeah, Like it's
like, okay, so true, of course you do, right, But
there was another line earlier that was like you mistake your anxiety around men for
butterflies or whatever. It's like, I can get why that would be complicated
and confusing, because like we've been taught like men, you must be careful.
But then another thing is I feel like if you're gay, you're not
that comfortable around women plenty of or okay, you're not comfortable around from around
women you're attracted to. Yes, there's that, but also I feel like
it's there is something about the shield that claiming straightness still provides you. Because
the thing is is like another one on here that's right under that is like
being mistaken for a couple with one of your girlfriends is exciting for you.
Being mistaken for a couple with one of your guy friends, No, reaction
or feels weird or wrong. And the thing is is, like I did
you used to do this with your friends, Like we used to think my
friend group that turned out to be like all gay gay, Like we used
to think it was the funniest thing to like go out and be like,
oh my god, let's like hold hands and put our arms around each other
and like I'll buy your movie ticket and we'll like make them think we're on
a date and like ha ha ha ha. Because you weren't right, because
it was like because you all knew you weren't, yeah, right, but
you'd be like, oh my god, like this, let's do this and
then we'll sit like this and then it's going to totally look like we're together.
Oh my god, do you think we can make the waiter think that
we're together? Like that was like that's way gayer than what I ever did,
Oh my god, Like, but we used to think it's the funniest
thing, right, Because a because you were like, oh, look at
us, like who cares if people think we're gay? Like we're so accepting
and like progressing, you know, And also because part of you was,
yeah, like you were getting that vicarious thrill of being like, ah,
I might see some woman someone has perceived me in that way, right,
But at the same time, if they're like, if there wasn't that protection
of being like and of course we both know we're straight, and we're just
laughing about it. Hahaha. It's just a big joke, like that would
have been like you would have been sweating, right, Like that would have
that would have been a whole thing, whole thing going on. Well,
yeah, that's the same, Like, yeah, like I would. I
was very physical with my girlfriends until someone would say something like you guys seem
gay, and then I'd be like right, yeah, yeah, all right
bye, and then they would all be very just a small cloud shaped like
Ellie. I'm like, I'm out, could it be me? Yeah?
I don't know about this gender stuff, you know. Listen, I'll give
them. I'll give the Lesbian Master Doc a couple points for like how they
handle this section. Couple things that I do. Like one very very welcoming
of trans lesbians, which like, props to you, Lesbian Master Doc.
We love our trans lesbians. Also, they're like very very cool about the
whole like non binary lesbian thing, which I'm like, yes, please,
like, great, great, why would this be an issue? I don't
know. I feel like I at least was happy about that because sometimes,
I mean, you know this, We've talked about this a lot before.
It's like sometimes you get into the very like hardcore lesbian spaces and they get
a little turfy, you know, like, well the turfy is like one
byproduct of that, for sure, but they just get gatekeeping in a lot
of ways about like what lesbian is or means or has to look like,
in ways that like you and I are not here for so I'm actually like,
you know, listen the the do we consider this the Bible? No?
But I mean, like I was glad to see that it's not.
It doesn't feel churpy. It doesn't feel like you know, I like,
for example, knowing you're attracted to yes, it says knowing you're attracted to
women, but feeling weirdly guilty and uncomfortable trying to interact with them as a
straight man. Yeah, and only later realizing you're actually a trans lesbian.
Or this one about non binary being non binary and taking a long time to
sort through being able to respect them, understand your and I'm not binary at
any and your lesbianists at the same time. Yeah. So, yes,
it's very gender expansive. Sure, great, good good for the master doc.
Ye, yes, there's so much. I like, we literally can't
even kept through the entire No, we can't talk because because you know what
this is. This is like okay, I mean I I come from a
different era of the Internet when I was like dealing with all of this,
But I'm like, this is every like, this is every Yahoo quiz,
am I gay on, like some flash website in two thousand and two,
Like this is all of them, like wrapped into a giant a giant PDF
of just like all the things. Right, it just covers it covers it
all much. I feel like ultimately though, I mean, like every one
of those quizzes, it's like the answer is if you're googling the am I
a lesbian master doc? You answer, yeah, you've got some gay you're
answering. Seriously, It's like I'm about to read it. And I also
just think it's it is so important to just be open to questioning your sexuality
because if you're opening into questioning your sexuality and you're still straight, nothing has
changed. You're cool, everything's fine. Do you know what I mean.
It's like, the risk is that you live your entire straight life sad as
fuck because you're not straight if you don't like And I guess that's also just
I guess that's my perspective because I feel like that's the way that I live
my life in general, is like I would rather do something and regret it
than not do it. And I know that a lot of other people don't
feel that way. And there's also safety concerns. Obviously, sure, we
can't think, we can't ignore that, but I am I like that.
This basically says like, if you're unsure or questioning, feel free to try
on the lesbian label. If you come to the conclusion that you are not
a lesbian eventually, that's okay too. That's fine. Listen, these two
digs give you permission to try out being a lesbian. For ABID, just
just give her a test drive and she like, listen, you just drive
a car. You never can I can I tell you going to a real,
deep, real fuck up. We're getting sucked up, okay, listen,
can I tell you what I think the most fucked up part of this
entire document is, though it's the TLD at the end because I swear to
got this. TLDR is basically like, hey, straight girls, sorry,
you're actually gay. Yeah, so let's go through some of the top bullet
points in the TLDR. You might be a lesbian if you wish you were
a lesbian so you could escape the discovery of dating men. Men are okay
in theory but terrible in practice. You feel like you could live with a
woman in a romantic way, even if you can't imagine doing anything sexual with
a woman. Or let's just flip flop that you feel like you can enjoy
sexual interaction with a woman even if you can't imagine having romantic feelings for a
woman. You lose interest in a man as soon as they seem interested in
you, And I'm like, this describes every straight girl. So many straight
girls, like so many straight girls. As a child, you always thought
you'd either never get married or platonically married a friend. I'm like, I
wait, my favorite, you can't imagine having a happy and fulfilling future with
the man. Oh god, you expect relationships with men to be unfulfilling by
default. Yeah, you dislike being attracted to men in general? Like this,
I swear to got straight, Like, you gotta do more, you
gotta do a little bit better. You gotta be happier with your lot in
life. Okay, Like yeah, have we're so sorry you were born We're
sorry you were born this way, but like you gotta make it work.
Yeah, I feel like we'rely It gets better PSA for straight For straight people,
it gets better. I don't feel like, you know, like men
in their like mid thirties, like they kind of start getting a little bit
of their shit together. I don't know. Yeah, like you don't want
to date men, but you feel like you have to. I mean,
it's just it's that's it. You think that your feelings for women don't count,
or that all women have feelings like that but they're not valid because you
think it's a phase everyone's going through. Oh my god, you think that
just because you could survive dating, marrying, or having sex with men,
you're attracted to men. This is like, this is like, uh,
this woman is trying to convince straight girls to sleep with her. That's what
I feel like, Like, I'm sorry, she said. She literally says,
hin, you don't have to settle for just surviving. If that's not
a line from Shane for the from the L word. I don't know what
is that? So is Oh my god, so funny. It's that's just
Kate Monig and like a tank top and underwear leaning up with a with a
cigarette in one hand, just being like, you know, you don't have
to set settle for just surviving and then going in for the kill. Yeah,
that's so accurate. Honestly, Props Master. I feel like you and
I have just headcannon that Like, this girl had the most oblivious friend.
Oh she's in love with her and she was like, I'm sorry, I
have to write this for you, and she just likes to break it.
Yeah. Yeah, but it's so good that way. Okay, So if
you have if you haven't looked at Lesbian Master, Doc, you gotta look
it up. It's a fucking great time, fun, fun for the whole
family. Okay, have your if you have like a bunch of straight friends,
just give them this and show them. You see how see how less
gay they how see see how many traits they can check off? Because I
swear to god, it's it's a wild time, wild wild all right.
Here we go cue and gay cue. Cue Question number one, Lee,
who was your celebrity stand in man crush A Joseph Gordon Levitt, B Orlando
Bloom, Ce, Jared Letto or d Harry Styles. I mean, some
of these are a little out of my era, so I'm gonna say Orlando
Bloom. I did have a lot of legolists with the long hair. Orlando
bloom pictures cut out on my wall as well. Question two, Ellie,
did you ever take an am I Gay quiz? Online? Yes? Or
no? I honestly don't think I did, And on like literally one,
I don't know if I did. And honestly because I was so like I
said, I was so gay, and I was still oppressed, and I
was so scared. I couldn't if I type those words, and like,
no, couldn't do it all right? Question number three, what did you
do when you came out a haircut? B Men's galone, se mask style
or d all view of I listen, It's fine, it's fine. D's
a valid choice. We've all been there all the above knew it. It's
fine, everything's fine. Stop it. Lee's so bright red for the half
of this episode, listeners, I was I was a dumb little gay,
Okay, it's fine. Question four really, do you ever practice kissing with
your girlfriends? A? Yes, B, no, C still do or
D I'm adding it I wish honestly, D, it's it's D. I
never did, but my life might have turned out differently if I did.
You know, No, I still think we would ended up here. Honestly.
Oh yeah, I'm just saying much earlier, I would have been like
like I missed, I missed some peak years. Yeah, I would have
literally been like ten being like oh shit, yeah, yep, all right,
Lee. Final question, what was your biggest gay sign before coming out?
A gay dreams, B sweating around girls, CE, joining the GSA,
or D never had a BF. I'm gonna say it has to be
a tie between either gay dreams or joining the GSA. There was there's a
lot of you were in the GSA. Oh yeah, but you were that.
Yeah. I was a straight ally man. I was so supportive.
I was such an ally too. But I didn't join the GSA. But
I like Kate and I both were. Kate and I both heard thesa pre
coming out like amazing listeners. Please let us know how the Lesbian Master Doc
affected affected you. What a ride? Remember you can give us your own
answers to episode qwing gay questions on our Twitter at lest that mean, we
love hearing from all of you, and we love continuing to build this community.
So we just want to shout out some of our favorite things every episode.
And listen, we know last week we went hard on like what a
cesspool or Facebook has been, so we just wanted to shout out some like
actual comments that we've gotten from people on our Facebook that are like not not
just like hate crimes, right, So we wanted to shout out Tea on
Facebook who responded to our post about having a queer awakening to be for Vendetta
saying saying yes but not until they realized they were trans which, like,
I mean, the most correct response to a Wachowski Sisters film. Yes,
And also I just loved this because we posted that quote graphic about how like
if you know someone's like grabbing your hand and like massaging their own tap with
it, like they might just be into you. So I just want to
shout out Jason, who replied, I don't know, she might just be
trying to be polite. Why do signs have to be so subtle? So
yeah, maybe maybe they're just being polite you never know. Okay, don't
quote us on this. It's it's just good manns, Yes, good manners,
God so funny as always want to think are Lesbian Jesus patrons, Mark
Foster, Lazette, Stei, Sophia Phillips and Armani Gucci and our our King
Princess patrons Amy and Ellen and Andrewadus Sat. Thank you so much for supporting
us. We could not continue to make the show without you. Remember you
can also find us on all the social media's. We are on Instagram,
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at less hangupod at gmail dot com, and you can check out our website
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have videos going up on our YouTube channel, so make sure you subscribe at
YouTube dot com slash Let's Hangout Pod to catch them. Let's hang Out is
an independently produced show hosted by US, with audio production by Ellie That's Me.
Let's Hangout is an independently produced show hosted by US with audio production by
me. Our production assistant is Chris Simerson and Twitter shdanigans and various other honestly
taking care of a lot of the shit on our heteronormative sess pool that has
somehow happened on our Facebook by LIAMS Foster. If you want to help support
the podcast, there are so many things you can do. The first one,
it's free. It's easy. Leave us a rating and a review on
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do have a queer production company making queer podcast musicals with guaranteed happy endings that
you can find everywhere at app dollar beIN prod you can also check out our
website, Dollarbeanproductions dot com. You can listen to all the episodes of our
first show, The Flame, on any podcasting app, and you can listen
to all the episodes of our most recent show, Journey to the Heart,
also on any podcasting app. And if you want to help support us and
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Bean Patreon. If you want to follow us individually, you can find me
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on Instagram, Twitter, and TikTok at Ellie Brigitta with that, I'm Ellie
and I'm we and let's hang out again soon. Let's hang mm hmm