WEBVTT 1 00:00:09.320 --> 00:00:13.000 Hello, and welcome to this episode of Superhero Ethics Friends. Today, We've 2 00:00:13.000 --> 00:00:15.119 got some big news for you, and that's gonna be a big part of 3 00:00:15.119 --> 00:00:18.839 what we talk about today. If you are a longtime listener to Star Wars 4 00:00:19.280 --> 00:00:23.480 Generations podcast or just older episodes of this podcast, you've probably heard one of 5 00:00:23.519 --> 00:00:28.000 my favorite guests, Riki Hayashi. Reeky has given us great insight on everything 6 00:00:28.039 --> 00:00:34.280 from the Clone Wars and Rebels to Go Jura movies, to the Green lantern 7 00:00:34.320 --> 00:00:38.200 and the Yellow lanterns and other things like that. And after having him on 8 00:00:38.240 --> 00:00:41.399 so many times as a guest, I'm happy to announce that he is going 9 00:00:41.439 --> 00:00:44.840 to be the new co host for us here on Superhero Ethics, and he 10 00:00:44.880 --> 00:00:48.679 and I had a great conversation about bringing him on and some of the ways 11 00:00:48.719 --> 00:00:52.280 we could kind of adjust where we've been going with this podcast and make some 12 00:00:52.399 --> 00:00:55.840 changes to maybe get back get a little bit closer to what some of the 13 00:00:55.880 --> 00:00:59.479 original ideas were and some of Reeky's great ideas. So, Reeky, let 14 00:00:59.479 --> 00:01:03.439 me just for first start by saying thank you so much and introduce yourself. 15 00:01:03.680 --> 00:01:08.799 Matthews, thank you so much. I mean, it is a great joy 16 00:01:10.239 --> 00:01:17.000 to be joining you always anytime. I appreciate the insights you have and how 17 00:01:17.519 --> 00:01:23.079 it challenges me, how we challenge each other in terms of understanding of our 18 00:01:23.159 --> 00:01:27.560 fandom and media and of the topic of this podcast. Right, superhero ethics 19 00:01:27.879 --> 00:01:34.959 moving perhaps a little bit away from superhero in general, but definitely like fandom 20 00:01:36.079 --> 00:01:41.079 ethics, like in terms of our geek fandom. So I really appreciate the 21 00:01:41.120 --> 00:01:45.200 opportunity to be a bigger part of this, and like you said, it's 22 00:01:46.560 --> 00:01:53.799 maybe like a little refocus on ethical dilemmas and within fandom, within media. 23 00:01:55.840 --> 00:02:00.640 For those of you who don't know, my name is Riki Hayashi. A 24 00:02:00.799 --> 00:02:07.319 long time well, I'm not even that by default. I was about to 25 00:02:07.319 --> 00:02:09.159 say I'm a long time judge. I'm not. I used to be a 26 00:02:09.240 --> 00:02:15.400 judge Magic the Gathering judge. That's how Matthew and I met. And I've 27 00:02:15.439 --> 00:02:20.159 moved on to some different games and fandoms and all that, but have always, 28 00:02:20.240 --> 00:02:25.879 like at my root, been a geek, a nerd and Star Wars 29 00:02:27.039 --> 00:02:32.280 especially as you may have heard on the other podcast. But I love just 30 00:02:32.479 --> 00:02:37.800 everything you know. I've been a longtime comic book fan, like actual comic 31 00:02:37.840 --> 00:02:43.280 books, anime, any kind of science fiction star Wars star Trek, of 32 00:02:43.319 --> 00:02:50.639 course, so I'm just like I'm always excited to talk about them in general. 33 00:02:51.520 --> 00:02:55.240 But I have always held a deep appreciation for this podcast in which you 34 00:02:55.360 --> 00:03:00.919 tried to do with it, or what you have done with it to make 35 00:03:00.960 --> 00:03:05.479 it a little more serious. Really, I really love that. And part 36 00:03:05.479 --> 00:03:08.000 of why I think I thought you'd be the perfect co host is that you 37 00:03:08.039 --> 00:03:13.680 and I have had a great many discussions over the years about these different questions 38 00:03:13.759 --> 00:03:15.759 that we love and the stories we love and things like that. But we 39 00:03:15.840 --> 00:03:21.479 never had a debate. It's always about here's my position, here's yours, 40 00:03:21.680 --> 00:03:25.080 how do they differ, how are they the same? And right now, 41 00:03:25.159 --> 00:03:30.800 I think so much of fandom is about debate. It's about It's not about 42 00:03:30.840 --> 00:03:35.439 listening to other people and hearing their perspectives and having that inform yours. It's 43 00:03:35.439 --> 00:03:37.599 about how do I win? How do I get the best singer, how 44 00:03:37.599 --> 00:03:42.479 do I get the best you know? One ups on this and there's a 45 00:03:42.520 --> 00:03:45.199 lot of fandom that I think is great and I love. I'm not using 46 00:03:45.240 --> 00:03:46.319 this an attack on fandom, and I certainly don't want to act like we're 47 00:03:46.360 --> 00:03:51.080 better and above it all by any means we're fans, we're part of fandom. 48 00:03:51.680 --> 00:03:53.000 But I've really found that I think there is an audience, and to 49 00:03:53.000 --> 00:03:57.080 all you out there listening, I'm really glad you're part of it too. 50 00:03:57.199 --> 00:04:00.719 Who wants to go a little deeper on these questions that I think a lot 51 00:04:00.719 --> 00:04:02.639 of times the creators really clearly want to. You know, the stuff we're 52 00:04:02.680 --> 00:04:08.280 talking about is not invented things. There have been so many wonderful people who 53 00:04:08.319 --> 00:04:15.000 have over the years use these mediums of I guess genre fiction or things geeks 54 00:04:15.039 --> 00:04:17.040 love is the kind of terms I've used to encompass all of it, because 55 00:04:17.079 --> 00:04:20.040 you're right, it is way off superheroes at this point. It's just sort 56 00:04:20.079 --> 00:04:26.279 of all those things that you mentioned and more. And they've always been, 57 00:04:26.480 --> 00:04:30.800 you know, ever since. You can go back to the first Captain America 58 00:04:30.839 --> 00:04:33.879 episode, you can go back to Mary Shelley writing what is considered Frankenstein, 59 00:04:33.920 --> 00:04:36.439 the first work of science fiction. You can go back, you know, 60 00:04:36.639 --> 00:04:44.519 hundreds of years, you have thousands of years probably people use stories as ways 61 00:04:44.600 --> 00:04:48.639 to raise questions or perhaps suggest answers to those questions. And that's what I 62 00:04:48.680 --> 00:04:51.920 really want us to explore here more of and you know, is looking at 63 00:04:51.920 --> 00:04:55.600 that, and so I'm just really excited that you're a partist and that we're 64 00:04:55.600 --> 00:05:00.560 going to have that discussion together. Yeah. Another thing I come like my 65 00:05:00.680 --> 00:05:05.199 background is as a sports fan, especially baseball, Like it's so laden with 66 00:05:05.240 --> 00:05:12.839 statistics historically, and it's very fascinating to be in baseball fandom and have discussions, 67 00:05:12.839 --> 00:05:16.160 whether it's like the current season, like who's the MVP or more historical 68 00:05:16.399 --> 00:05:20.360 like who is the greatest of all time? Right, and you bring up 69 00:05:20.439 --> 00:05:25.680 names like Babe Ruth versus Barry Bonds who played it, you know, almost 70 00:05:25.680 --> 00:05:30.920 one hundred years apart and in very different eras under very different circumstances. But 71 00:05:30.040 --> 00:05:34.839 because of the continuity of statistics, you can you can have discussions, but 72 00:05:35.120 --> 00:05:40.360 no one is ever going to be right in those discussions because you can't be 73 00:05:40.720 --> 00:05:45.319 there's no actual way to tell who was quote unquote better at baseball or who's 74 00:05:45.360 --> 00:05:48.319 the greatest. But it's fun to have those discussions. And that's the kind 75 00:05:48.399 --> 00:05:54.199 of thing I like to do, whether it's baseball or whether it's in fandom, 76 00:05:54.600 --> 00:05:59.759 is that it's not even like agreed to disagree, but have fun disagreeing, 77 00:06:00.160 --> 00:06:03.800 because that's like the discussion is where we can have fun. Yeah, 78 00:06:03.879 --> 00:06:09.199 it doesn't necessarily have to be about changing minds, because I you know, 79 00:06:09.240 --> 00:06:14.160 I don't need to change someone's mind about whether I love a certain piece of 80 00:06:14.240 --> 00:06:17.439 media or fiction, right, Yeah, But if I express why I love 81 00:06:17.480 --> 00:06:21.639 it, maybe you'll gain a different appreciation, and even if you don't love 82 00:06:21.639 --> 00:06:26.959 it as much as I do, come to a certain understanding. Yeah. 83 00:06:27.639 --> 00:06:30.839 I think it's such a great way to put it. And it's like as 84 00:06:30.879 --> 00:06:32.079 often happens. There's like five different things I want to comment on, but 85 00:06:32.160 --> 00:06:38.199 let me just start with the baseball comment you made. First of all, 86 00:06:38.279 --> 00:06:41.560 today's the perfect day to say that, because it is opening day for Major 87 00:06:41.639 --> 00:06:45.720 League Baseball. For most of Major League Baseball. Two teams started Major League 88 00:06:45.720 --> 00:06:47.959 Baseball a week and a half ago. Things are a little weird. My 89 00:06:48.079 --> 00:06:51.560 own New York Mets are starting tomorrow because of rain delay, the only reason 90 00:06:51.600 --> 00:06:58.920 I'm available to record right now. But also I am also a huge baseball 91 00:06:58.959 --> 00:07:03.040 fan. One thing I have found really interesting in baseball, As you said, 92 00:07:03.079 --> 00:07:08.360 not only do we have these statistics over time, but over time, 93 00:07:09.040 --> 00:07:13.480 the way in which we look at statistics has changed a lot. And part 94 00:07:13.480 --> 00:07:17.560 of why it's hard to draw the comparisons that we do is that not only 95 00:07:17.639 --> 00:07:21.120 was the context, you know, taking like your babe Ruth versus Barry Bond's 96 00:07:21.399 --> 00:07:25.879 discussion, not only is the context which those two people played so different, 97 00:07:26.600 --> 00:07:29.839 but the stats by which we evaluate them. Many of you have heard me 98 00:07:29.879 --> 00:07:33.360 talk about money ball and how much you know the Billy Bean in the Oakland 99 00:07:33.399 --> 00:07:38.879 A's and this whole idea of you know him coming to a team and saying, 100 00:07:39.199 --> 00:07:42.639 baseball used to be measured by these statistics, but actually we should These 101 00:07:42.680 --> 00:07:46.079 statistics are a better way of looking at it. We should use those rubrics 102 00:07:46.160 --> 00:07:49.240 instead, and it meant reevaluating a lot of modern players and also reevaluating a 103 00:07:49.279 --> 00:07:54.279 lot of older players. The reason I'm saying all of that is because I 104 00:07:54.279 --> 00:07:57.480 think one of the things that we often do, and I really appreciate that 105 00:07:57.480 --> 00:08:01.000 you you feel like we get the nuances of these conversations is not only do 106 00:08:01.000 --> 00:08:05.519 we often analyze media right now, but we do look back on things from 107 00:08:05.680 --> 00:08:11.040 ten, twenty thirty to fifty one hundred years ago, and sometimes the big 108 00:08:11.079 --> 00:08:13.439 and interesting part of the conversation is to say, okay, well, let's 109 00:08:13.360 --> 00:08:18.079 there's lenses of analysis that we have today that we can use to evaluate these 110 00:08:18.120 --> 00:08:22.399 things, remembering that that's not the lens that people were writing through back then. 111 00:08:22.519 --> 00:08:26.160 But you know, and I think it's very easy to just say, 112 00:08:26.600 --> 00:08:30.839 oh, it was a different time, so they're completely forgiven, or it's 113 00:08:30.959 --> 00:08:35.840 very easy to say that the time was so different that that that their time 114 00:08:35.960 --> 00:08:39.039 was bad and wrong, so everything from that is bad and wrong. And 115 00:08:39.360 --> 00:08:41.279 I think, you know, one of the things we like to do here 116 00:08:41.360 --> 00:08:43.480 is to be able to say, yeah, we can acknowledge that the lenses 117 00:08:43.519 --> 00:08:48.080 we look at media through are are not only different, but are evolving and 118 00:08:48.159 --> 00:08:50.840 changing and different and will continue to be different. And I hold that all 119 00:08:50.879 --> 00:08:54.799 that complexity in mind. We look at media not just today from a long 120 00:08:54.840 --> 00:09:01.919 time ago. Yeah, especially right now. I mean, this is a 121 00:09:01.960 --> 00:09:07.279 topic that I put in the suggestions nostalgia media. So we we'll probably in 122 00:09:07.320 --> 00:09:09.799 a future episode get to it more in depth, but I just want to 123 00:09:09.799 --> 00:09:15.600 touch on the fact that currently we are we have an ongoing series called X 124 00:09:15.679 --> 00:09:22.799 Men ninety seven that is based on Slash, possibly a continuation of a cartoon 125 00:09:22.840 --> 00:09:26.679 series from the nineties that ended in nineteen ninety seven, and a lot of 126 00:09:26.679 --> 00:09:31.879 those stories are based on comic book stories that were written in the nineteen eighties, 127 00:09:33.399 --> 00:09:39.759 so we have this like multi generational legacy and how like modern writers update 128 00:09:39.799 --> 00:09:45.159 the stories or change those stories is very interesting to me. And evaluating what 129 00:09:45.200 --> 00:09:48.720 those stories mean to us today versus what they may have meant to audiences at 130 00:09:48.720 --> 00:09:54.320 the time that they were originally released. Like that's I find that very fascinating, 131 00:09:54.919 --> 00:09:58.679 especially as like comic books, Star Wars, Star Trek, we are 132 00:09:58.720 --> 00:10:05.120 getting into multi generational content creation where the people who are making the products now 133 00:10:07.159 --> 00:10:11.960 weren't alive or maybe like we're kids when these products were originally released and they 134 00:10:11.440 --> 00:10:16.440 grew up as fans, and now they are getting to contribute to the continuation 135 00:10:16.559 --> 00:10:20.120 of that. Yeah, And I think that's such an important discussion to have 136 00:10:20.320 --> 00:10:24.600 on two different levels, because one level is what is the nostalgia of the 137 00:10:24.639 --> 00:10:28.600 creators and the society itself, but also what is the nostalgia of us as 138 00:10:28.679 --> 00:10:33.799 viewers, you know, because Batman starts in the nineteen thirties as a comic 139 00:10:33.440 --> 00:10:37.159 and so for many you know, I don't know, there's too many viewers 140 00:10:37.200 --> 00:10:41.440 who were I don't know, there's too many listeners who were around long enough 141 00:10:41.480 --> 00:10:46.360 to have read that. But so I certainly salute you, but certainly, 142 00:10:46.440 --> 00:10:48.200 you know, some of our older viewers probably started reading comics in the fifties 143 00:10:48.279 --> 00:10:52.799 or sixties or watched the Batman sixty six show. I know, for me, 144 00:10:52.879 --> 00:10:56.759 my introduction to Batman was was that Batman sixty six show, but really 145 00:10:56.840 --> 00:11:01.240 was Michael Keaton. And so for me personally, nostalgia of Batman starts in 146 00:11:01.279 --> 00:11:05.879 the mid eighties with Michael Keaton. And for someone else it might start, 147 00:11:05.919 --> 00:11:07.559 you know, like you said, with the X Men. For someone else, 148 00:11:07.159 --> 00:11:11.919 uh, their nostalgia and the X Men might start with I'm wis say, 149 00:11:11.960 --> 00:11:16.279 Patrick Swayzey, Patrick Stewart and Ian McKellen, or might start with the 150 00:11:16.320 --> 00:11:20.759 animated show, or it might start with the comic books or whatever it is. 151 00:11:20.799 --> 00:11:22.519 And so I think that's the nostalgy thing is such an interesting thing to 152 00:11:22.519 --> 00:11:26.639 look at. So, but putting it back on you for just a second, 153 00:11:26.679 --> 00:11:30.759 because I want to want to get a little bit more about you. 154 00:11:30.799 --> 00:11:33.080 What was kind of your first nerd, your nurse, what was kind of 155 00:11:33.120 --> 00:11:35.799 your first fandom, What was the first thing that you really started to kind 156 00:11:35.799 --> 00:11:43.279 of get into as a kid or whatever? Age Star Wars. Yeah, 157 00:11:43.759 --> 00:11:48.919 because I I can't verify this, but I have been told by my parents 158 00:11:48.360 --> 00:11:54.440 that they took me to Empire Strikes Back in theaters when I was I was 159 00:11:54.480 --> 00:11:58.600 not really like a cognizant child, So I take that at face value that 160 00:11:58.600 --> 00:12:03.480 that was the first movie I went to in theaters. Certainly Return of the 161 00:12:03.600 --> 00:12:09.559 Jedi was the first movie. Like I really remember owning the video cassette, 162 00:12:09.600 --> 00:12:13.320 the VHS of and just playing it over and over again. I also had 163 00:12:15.120 --> 00:12:20.120 audio cassettes kind of like summaries of those movies, and I listened to those 164 00:12:20.200 --> 00:12:26.720 all the time. They they basically like were like yeah, like short narratives 165 00:12:26.960 --> 00:12:31.840 of it of the movies with some audio from the movies spliced in. I 166 00:12:31.879 --> 00:12:35.639 believe, really weird product of time. I didn't listen to the Star Wars 167 00:12:35.720 --> 00:12:39.480 ones, but I had one of Michael Jackson telling me et story, so 168 00:12:39.559 --> 00:12:43.679 I know, act what you're talking about there, And yeah, I had 169 00:12:43.679 --> 00:12:46.840 some of you know, like the action figures of toys. Obviously like none 170 00:12:48.120 --> 00:12:52.879 preserved in the original packaging. I don't I don't think I even own any 171 00:12:52.919 --> 00:12:56.840 of them anymore at this point, but that that was definitely like my original 172 00:12:58.000 --> 00:13:01.879 fandom, and to this day is one of my favorites, and then I 173 00:13:01.919 --> 00:13:11.639 would say that Japanese manga and anime really played a big part in my youth 174 00:13:11.840 --> 00:13:16.559 to teenage years. Dragon Ball became really big when I was a kid, 175 00:13:16.960 --> 00:13:22.559 and I still I have I own all of the original books of that, 176 00:13:22.200 --> 00:13:26.440 and then through Dragon Ball, there were several other ones that I have followed 177 00:13:26.440 --> 00:13:33.840 over the years, including one piece which is still going over a thousand episodes. 178 00:13:33.159 --> 00:13:35.799 We'll we're talking a little bit about that in the bonus content at the 179 00:13:35.879 --> 00:13:41.120 end of this episode when you give people some more context for that, because 180 00:13:41.120 --> 00:13:45.320 I know you speak both English and Japanese quite well, if I can ask 181 00:13:46.639 --> 00:13:50.080 which one did you kind of grow up speaking? And am I right that 182 00:13:50.080 --> 00:13:54.879 you were born in Japan but then came to this country or yes, I 183 00:13:54.919 --> 00:14:01.799 was. I'm a Japanese citizen and I grew up speaking both languages, basically 184 00:14:01.440 --> 00:14:09.080 Japanese at home and English in public slash school. And I did also attend 185 00:14:09.120 --> 00:14:18.000 a Saturday Japanese school up until about high school. I believe so culturally like 186 00:14:18.120 --> 00:14:22.639 I am very US like western based, because that's how I grew up, 187 00:14:22.679 --> 00:14:28.039 Like that's most of the media I consumed. But I had another like I 188 00:14:28.080 --> 00:14:33.159 had grandparents in Japan who would send me things like video that they would record 189 00:14:33.519 --> 00:14:39.080 on vhs, like episodes of manga that they knew I liked they sent me, 190 00:14:39.120 --> 00:14:43.320 you know, like toys, video games and all that stuff. So 191 00:14:43.399 --> 00:14:50.919 I have absorbed a lot of Japanese culture, but not not necessarily directly, 192 00:14:50.080 --> 00:14:54.639 like as part of a Japanese audience, right, because you moved here when 193 00:14:54.639 --> 00:14:58.799 you were fairly young. Yeah, and then seeing I would say, like, 194 00:15:00.200 --> 00:15:03.159 what was it? Tsunami caused kind of like the first Golden Age of 195 00:15:03.200 --> 00:15:09.840 anime in the United States when they aired episodes of Dragon Ball and other things, 196 00:15:09.440 --> 00:15:13.039 and then right now I feel like we're in the Silver Age, like 197 00:15:13.080 --> 00:15:18.320 with streaming on Netflix, Like I have caught up on so many anime that 198 00:15:18.440 --> 00:15:22.039 I kind of only knew tangentially, and have gotten to watch them in Japanese 199 00:15:22.039 --> 00:15:26.000 also as well, because like Tsunami would have been dubbed, right, So 200 00:15:26.080 --> 00:15:31.720 the ability to watch a lot of these shows in the original Japanese to me 201 00:15:31.799 --> 00:15:37.080 is very special and a fantastic opportunity for me to practice a little of my 202 00:15:37.200 --> 00:15:39.840 language as well, which has got very rusty. Well, I think it 203 00:15:39.879 --> 00:15:45.000 is something that's been so valuable to us on past episodes. I'll do the 204 00:15:45.039 --> 00:15:48.159 anime, but also with things everything from like Goji Ra to some of the 205 00:15:48.159 --> 00:15:52.840 other things we've seen, where you know, I think it's and I'm a 206 00:15:52.840 --> 00:15:56.120 big believer in kind of the postmodern idea of like that wherever your social placement 207 00:15:56.240 --> 00:16:00.600 is, your experience of the movie, there is not right or wrong. 208 00:16:00.639 --> 00:16:03.679 It's you're different some someone else's. But being able to give more of that 209 00:16:03.759 --> 00:16:10.480 background and history on things like the Rorory Kenchin movies that we've seen together, 210 00:16:10.720 --> 00:16:14.240 or the Gojura movies, Godzilla movies and stuff like that has really been so 211 00:16:14.240 --> 00:16:22.919 invaluable. Yeah, And the thing is like context, context matters, especially 212 00:16:22.000 --> 00:16:29.799 for anime, in that you have to accept that certain tropes exist or certain 213 00:16:30.679 --> 00:16:34.799 like characters exist. And I think I've mentioned this in the past. Japanese 214 00:16:34.879 --> 00:16:41.440 media, especially anime, often has like the one character who is a bit 215 00:16:41.480 --> 00:16:48.559 of a misogynistic pervert right right, and these days, like in a Western 216 00:16:48.919 --> 00:16:52.279 media, you would never write a character like that. And we talked about 217 00:16:52.320 --> 00:16:56.759 how the New Avatar, you know, Sokka's misogyny was very toned down, 218 00:16:57.039 --> 00:17:03.000 and I think we are starting to see that again, Like I'll mention one 219 00:17:03.000 --> 00:17:08.440 piece, the character Sanji is much more of a womanizer, I would say 220 00:17:08.839 --> 00:17:14.559 in the original manga and anime, So we might be seeing a kind of 221 00:17:14.640 --> 00:17:18.599 blending and maybe smoothing out of traits like that, but still like it exists 222 00:17:18.599 --> 00:17:21.920 like to this day, Like a lot of anime I watched, there's that 223 00:17:21.960 --> 00:17:25.359 one character where we're like, yep, that's that's the guy, like he's 224 00:17:25.640 --> 00:17:30.640 kind of treating women poorly. Yeah, what I think, understanding those tropes 225 00:17:30.759 --> 00:17:36.799 is so fundamental really to all of media. And this question I come to 226 00:17:36.839 --> 00:17:41.079 from a particularly strange place, but I think it really fits. When I 227 00:17:41.119 --> 00:17:45.839 was in seminary and we were talking about the Hebrew Bible, my professor, 228 00:17:45.079 --> 00:17:49.079 you know, really wanted us to better understand the context in which certain parts 229 00:17:49.079 --> 00:17:52.359 of the Bible were written. I'm actually the same with Christian scriptures, and 230 00:17:52.759 --> 00:17:59.720 so one example he used, he asked us what war was the TV show 231 00:17:59.759 --> 00:18:02.920 match about, and we all kind of wrote something down, and you know, 232 00:18:02.960 --> 00:18:04.319 he you know, went the room, and the next day it said 233 00:18:04.359 --> 00:18:10.200 like that he could pretty clearly tell what age someone was by how they answered 234 00:18:10.200 --> 00:18:14.519 it. Because most of the younger viewers said that the the TV show matches 235 00:18:14.519 --> 00:18:18.359 about the Korean War, because that's what it literally is about. But anybody 236 00:18:18.400 --> 00:18:22.119 who actually watched it at the time it was coming out knew very well it 237 00:18:22.160 --> 00:18:25.200 was. It was one hundred percent about the Vietnam War, you know, 238 00:18:25.279 --> 00:18:29.279 it was. They used Korea as the metaphor. But if you understood it 239 00:18:29.279 --> 00:18:32.039 in the context of its time, they're talking about that, you know, 240 00:18:32.039 --> 00:18:34.440 in the same way that like, I don't think you can ever understand the 241 00:18:34.440 --> 00:18:40.079 first Gojura movie without understanding that was made shortly after the American occupation of Japan, 242 00:18:40.160 --> 00:18:42.319 left only a couple of years after the nuclear bomb. Things like that, 243 00:18:42.480 --> 00:18:48.319 and that that's true for you know, the understanding the X Men and 244 00:18:48.359 --> 00:18:53.920 how I think you know, stan Lee and Jack stan Lee and Jack Kirby 245 00:18:53.920 --> 00:18:57.640 are writing in the sixties during civil rights and then christerrher Columbus. That's not 246 00:18:57.680 --> 00:19:04.599 his name, is it, the author Chris Claremont, Chris Claremont, Christ 247 00:19:04.720 --> 00:19:07.759 Club is very different obviously, christpher Claremont. You know, he's writing in 248 00:19:08.279 --> 00:19:12.160 the eighties where I think, if you don't understand all the debates about homosexuality 249 00:19:12.240 --> 00:19:15.680 and HIV, AIDS and all that, it's very hard to under you know, 250 00:19:15.720 --> 00:19:18.680 you don't get the whole meaning, so, you know, and I 251 00:19:18.720 --> 00:19:22.880 think that's something we're gonna really kind of look at, is how do we 252 00:19:22.920 --> 00:19:26.200 both hold these shows in the context in which they're written, but also understand 253 00:19:26.160 --> 00:19:29.680 them the context which we experience them today, because I think that is just 254 00:19:29.680 --> 00:19:33.400 as valuable. But yeah, and one of the things that we talked about 255 00:19:33.640 --> 00:19:41.119 with your blessing I hope to add to this podcast is like deeper research pieces 256 00:19:41.200 --> 00:19:44.880 on history, like on the history of what might have been happening in the 257 00:19:44.920 --> 00:19:48.079 real world, like when some older piece of media came out or was written. 258 00:19:48.319 --> 00:19:52.799 Because I love that stuff. I'm a history I'm a student of history, 259 00:19:52.880 --> 00:19:56.000 So like putting stuff into the context of what was happening or just like 260 00:19:56.440 --> 00:20:02.759 a deep dive like story about something is right up my alley. Yeah, 261 00:20:03.079 --> 00:20:04.440 no, I'm one hundred in here for that. And I think that's been 262 00:20:07.559 --> 00:20:11.119 I think sometimes people, especially because we go into the longer conversations about it, 263 00:20:11.119 --> 00:20:12.720 because I think it's very easy to say, you know, to pull 264 00:20:12.839 --> 00:20:17.319 one fact out of history and say, oh, this is about that, 265 00:20:17.480 --> 00:20:19.920 and so therefore this is commenting on that, and therefore this means this and 266 00:20:19.960 --> 00:20:22.799 that kind of thing, and it's obviously much more complicated than that, and 267 00:20:22.839 --> 00:20:27.839 so I think it's interesting actually here we are in the True Story family of 268 00:20:29.279 --> 00:20:33.440 podcasts. When I was one of the co hosts of the Marvel Movie Minute, 269 00:20:33.079 --> 00:20:36.559 that was very much something we did, and so when we went when 270 00:20:36.599 --> 00:20:41.880 we did Thor, we did a lot of research on the Norse uh you 271 00:20:41.880 --> 00:20:45.720 know god ideas that somewhat and the Norse mythology that so much with that was 272 00:20:45.759 --> 00:20:48.240 based on, as well as the Shakespearean references that were so often being made 273 00:20:48.279 --> 00:20:53.400 and the the all the other imagery and historical references that are being made by 274 00:20:53.759 --> 00:20:57.119 you know, superhero movie. So, yeah, that is something I'm gonna 275 00:20:57.119 --> 00:21:00.200 be really excited about. And just let's talk about you a little more. 276 00:21:00.240 --> 00:21:03.559 So you start out a Star Wars fan, again, very much where I 277 00:21:03.559 --> 00:21:04.920 am. I'm I think a couple of years older than you, but basically 278 00:21:04.880 --> 00:21:07.839 the same experience. Return of the Jedi is the first thing I remember seeing 279 00:21:07.839 --> 00:21:12.519 in theaters. I was told I went to see Empire. I don't remember 280 00:21:12.559 --> 00:21:18.440 a time where I hadn't watched a New Hope or Empire. But where where'd 281 00:21:18.440 --> 00:21:21.079 it go from there? You talked about manga, you talked about some other 282 00:21:21.079 --> 00:21:25.720 things. What was kind of the path for you. Yeah, I mean 283 00:21:25.759 --> 00:21:29.319 at some point I got into Star Trek. I guess it would have been 284 00:21:29.319 --> 00:21:36.039 Next Generation. I remember watching episodes of Star Trek, the original series in 285 00:21:36.240 --> 00:21:41.359 syndication, but but it was just like another one of those shows I watched, 286 00:21:41.400 --> 00:21:44.039 you know, like of that era. Night Rider is another one I 287 00:21:44.079 --> 00:21:48.880 remember, which is does not hold up at all. I'm not speaking speaking 288 00:21:48.920 --> 00:21:53.319 of like terribly misogynistic characters. Michael Knight. Yikes. I tried. I 289 00:21:53.359 --> 00:21:56.680 tried to watch it recently. I was like, no, no thanks, 290 00:21:56.359 --> 00:22:00.680 I'll just leave that in the nostalgia bin. But then, yeah, like 291 00:22:00.720 --> 00:22:07.319 Star Trek, Next Generation, I would say for teenage me was the most 292 00:22:07.400 --> 00:22:12.599 influential TV series of that time, of that era. As an adult fan, 293 00:22:12.720 --> 00:22:18.720 now I have a deeper appreciation for Deep Space nine, but at the 294 00:22:18.759 --> 00:22:25.480 time, it was definitely TNG that kind of caught my imagination and I watched 295 00:22:25.519 --> 00:22:29.880 every week. I actually I bought books and I read about the production and 296 00:22:29.960 --> 00:22:33.240 about all the little things. And so to this day, like I can 297 00:22:33.319 --> 00:22:41.200 still probably name over fifty percent of Next Generation episodes just after like the first 298 00:22:41.240 --> 00:22:45.119 five minute teaser p Recreants teaser. Yeah, so that's how deep of a 299 00:22:45.160 --> 00:22:49.079 fan I am, Like, I am that like Trivia nerd when it comes 300 00:22:49.119 --> 00:22:53.880 to TNG at least well, and I know that TNG all the Star Trek, 301 00:22:53.920 --> 00:22:56.319 really, my mother pointed out, kind of going back all the way 302 00:22:56.359 --> 00:23:02.680 to the original series has always been very explicit about not just you know, 303 00:23:03.160 --> 00:23:07.400 crazy explosions and ship fights and fun aliens, but about really raising ethical questions 304 00:23:07.400 --> 00:23:11.400 in the kind of way that science fiction does it its best. I think 305 00:23:11.400 --> 00:23:15.240 Star Wars also has, but Star Trek's a lot more explicit. Do you 306 00:23:15.319 --> 00:23:18.920 think at was there a certain age or was it from the beginning that those 307 00:23:18.920 --> 00:23:22.200 particular questions like that you kind of enjoyed talking to your friends about, like, 308 00:23:22.240 --> 00:23:23.680 oh, yeah, what do you think the should the captain have done 309 00:23:23.720 --> 00:23:27.799 this or that or that kind of thing? Yeah, in terms of the 310 00:23:27.880 --> 00:23:33.039 superhero ethics of it all, I don't recall that being the case. When 311 00:23:33.039 --> 00:23:37.920 I was a kid. Of course, I recognized that Star Trek you know 312 00:23:37.960 --> 00:23:45.359 what we would now call woke. Yeah, and but it I don't know, 313 00:23:45.480 --> 00:23:49.000 Like, I think one of the beautiful things about what Star Trek does, 314 00:23:49.400 --> 00:23:55.240 like right from the original series, is that it just normalizes things. 315 00:23:55.680 --> 00:24:00.759 Yeah, I didn't even think too deeply about the fact, you know that 316 00:24:00.839 --> 00:24:07.000 the bridge crew of the original Enterprise had an Asian man, a Japanese man, 317 00:24:07.079 --> 00:24:12.640 Hikutusu played by George Taka or Uhura played by Michelle Nichols, Right, 318 00:24:12.680 --> 00:24:18.279 like, even even growing up in the nineties, like I guess, it 319 00:24:18.319 --> 00:24:23.720 was still a bit on the token is scale. But diversity existed in pass 320 00:24:25.480 --> 00:24:29.680 especially of like science fiction shows. But it didn't It didn't really occur to 321 00:24:29.720 --> 00:24:32.319 me at the time when I was watching as a kid that that that was 322 00:24:32.359 --> 00:24:37.319 somehow revolutionary for the time and was like really ahead of its time. And 323 00:24:37.680 --> 00:24:41.480 it wasn't until definitely later that I read about things, you know, like 324 00:24:41.559 --> 00:24:49.599 Michelle nichols conversation with doctor Martin Luther King on how on why she she was 325 00:24:49.640 --> 00:24:53.519 she wanted to quit the show after season one and he was the one who 326 00:24:53.559 --> 00:24:57.359 convinced her to stay. Really how yeah, this is a very it's a 327 00:24:57.359 --> 00:25:00.559 famous story. You should look it up, like retelling of it is very 328 00:25:00.599 --> 00:25:06.279 beautiful. And she talked about how he was like, no, absolutely not, 329 00:25:06.480 --> 00:25:10.720 like do you know how important you are to have a competent black woman 330 00:25:11.039 --> 00:25:15.279 on a national television show? And he was the one who can misce her 331 00:25:15.319 --> 00:25:19.079 to stay. And yeah, like I don't even she didn't realize like how 332 00:25:19.119 --> 00:25:23.680 important that role was. And that's that's the kind of thing like now as 333 00:25:23.720 --> 00:25:27.000 an adult, like you can look back and see things like that or see 334 00:25:27.039 --> 00:25:36.279 the way that media mismanages or misuses, you know, minority characters or actors, 335 00:25:36.359 --> 00:25:41.559 performers, And I think that that it is deeply important. Yeah, 336 00:25:41.680 --> 00:25:45.680 because we are not We have certainly come a long way as a society, 337 00:25:45.960 --> 00:25:49.519 and we have come a long way since the nineteen sixties, even the nineteen 338 00:25:49.640 --> 00:25:55.839 nineties. You know, we're talking about Next Generation. I was just watching 339 00:25:55.920 --> 00:26:00.319 a video about I believe the episode see Out. I think it's Code of 340 00:26:00.359 --> 00:26:06.519 Honor, the famous Next Generation episode where they go to a planet of all 341 00:26:06.599 --> 00:26:11.559 black people that the depiction of them but is very racist, right, And 342 00:26:11.720 --> 00:26:15.359 yeah, I think it's the first episode after Farrest Gate for the second one. 343 00:26:15.400 --> 00:26:22.759 It's really bad and so like even even in the nineties, that was 344 00:26:22.799 --> 00:26:26.440 happening, and it's like either no one thought about it, or the people 345 00:26:26.440 --> 00:26:30.759 who did thought about it were not in a in a strong enough position of 346 00:26:30.799 --> 00:26:33.559 power to put a stop to it, and just kind of like, Okay, 347 00:26:33.599 --> 00:26:37.240 I guess we're doing this and a lot of the people who participated in 348 00:26:37.240 --> 00:26:41.279 that production, whether it's the writers, the actors, most of them have 349 00:26:41.680 --> 00:26:45.079 you know, who speak about it, have come out and said that was 350 00:26:45.119 --> 00:26:52.079 bad. Shouldn't have done that. And so that's the other perspective I bring 351 00:26:52.200 --> 00:26:56.720 to myself, like as a human being and just to everything that that we're 352 00:26:56.759 --> 00:27:00.400 going to be talking about, is that we're never done. We should never 353 00:27:00.519 --> 00:27:07.200 be done growing, learning, getting better. Like even a show like Star 354 00:27:07.279 --> 00:27:11.680 Trek has made mistakes. Yeah, and it is our ability to learn from 355 00:27:11.720 --> 00:27:17.079 those mistakes and move forward and make the next thing we do better. And 356 00:27:17.160 --> 00:27:21.000 there will still we'll still make mistakes, right Like now we are in an 357 00:27:21.079 --> 00:27:30.279 era where television media is more comfortable telling stories about LGBTQ, the LGBTQ people, 358 00:27:30.960 --> 00:27:37.880 and yet those there will be mistakes just because it's not enough representation in 359 00:27:37.920 --> 00:27:41.079 the writer's room or whatever. Like people will make bad assumptions, et cetera. 360 00:27:41.720 --> 00:27:45.880 And that doesn't mean like we should stop trying. It means we should 361 00:27:45.880 --> 00:27:49.720 try try more. And I think that's such a great way of looking at 362 00:27:49.720 --> 00:27:56.359 it, because you're right, it's easy to look back at some things and 363 00:27:56.359 --> 00:28:00.319 say oh, it doesn't meet the standards of today, so therefore want to 364 00:28:00.359 --> 00:28:03.240 watch it. And sometimes I think that is the right thing to do. 365 00:28:03.359 --> 00:28:07.680 Like you know what you said about night Writer. I still love the movie 366 00:28:07.680 --> 00:28:11.599 Ghostbusters because it still hits that nostalgic thing. But I wouldn't recommend it to 367 00:28:11.640 --> 00:28:15.039 someone today because it is incredibly misogynistic and has a lot of other problems, 368 00:28:17.759 --> 00:28:22.839 really homophobic and way of portraying kind of the main villains is very efeminate and 369 00:28:22.880 --> 00:28:26.359 that kind of stuff. But at the same time, I think we can 370 00:28:26.359 --> 00:28:30.519 also look at the So there's that category, but there's also ways we can 371 00:28:30.559 --> 00:28:37.400 say, look, this was making steps intentionally to really improve on stuff that 372 00:28:38.400 --> 00:28:42.559 you know had been done in the past, and here's some ways which were 373 00:28:42.680 --> 00:28:45.880 succeeded, and here's some ways in which we today look at it and think, 374 00:28:47.039 --> 00:28:49.160 you know, it's not great. And you know, recently our Flag 375 00:28:49.200 --> 00:28:55.079 Means Death has been lauded as one of the best shows for queer representation out 376 00:28:55.119 --> 00:28:57.319 there. It is a very good show, I think, and I'm sure 377 00:28:57.359 --> 00:29:00.039 that in thirty or forty years, pople are going to look back out and 378 00:29:00.119 --> 00:29:02.960 go, oh, this was wrong, and this was wrong, and this 379 00:29:03.079 --> 00:29:07.519 was wrong and all these kinds of analysis analyzes that you and I would never 380 00:29:07.559 --> 00:29:11.839 even dream of. And to me, that's where it really interesting. Where 381 00:29:11.920 --> 00:29:15.400 that is where the really interesting conversations can lie is is how do we both 382 00:29:15.039 --> 00:29:19.119 look at it through the eyes of today and also look at it through what 383 00:29:19.279 --> 00:29:22.960 was trying to be said back then. Because I also think that's important is 384 00:29:23.000 --> 00:29:29.799 that, Yeah, the original Star Trek puts a far more diverse crew on 385 00:29:30.000 --> 00:29:34.039 screen than we've ever seen before. It still has the black woman is basically 386 00:29:34.079 --> 00:29:40.720 the like, you know secretary, which you know commented a lot Michelle Nichols's 387 00:29:40.839 --> 00:29:45.960 role was revolutionary for the time. Looking back on it today, it's still 388 00:29:45.960 --> 00:29:48.880 a very like this is the best that they could do for a woman, 389 00:29:48.000 --> 00:29:52.079 especially a woman of color. But we can look at it from both sides. 390 00:29:52.119 --> 00:29:57.119 You know, Captain Kirk was very open handed and very you know, 391 00:29:57.240 --> 00:30:03.039 had some great attitudes and ideas is that were pretty progressive and revolutionary for his 392 00:30:03.119 --> 00:30:07.920 time. He's also not the greatest towards women in a lot of ways. 393 00:30:10.279 --> 00:30:12.000 So yeah, I'm just really excited to have all these conversations. It's not 394 00:30:12.039 --> 00:30:15.400 it's not just about bash. I think I think you can hear this and 395 00:30:15.440 --> 00:30:18.039 think we're bashing on things. It's not that at all. It's much more 396 00:30:18.039 --> 00:30:22.519 about understanding things in their context, talking about how we see things today, 397 00:30:22.960 --> 00:30:27.039 and and figuring out how do we each our own meaning from that. Yeah, 398 00:30:27.160 --> 00:30:36.400 I think the important thing is that things aging poorly is a sign of 399 00:30:36.519 --> 00:30:40.839 progress. Yeah. Like, if we look back on stuff from our lens 400 00:30:40.880 --> 00:30:44.759 today and say, like, this property has aged poorly, like these jokes 401 00:30:44.799 --> 00:30:48.000 have aged poorly, this character is aged poorly, that means we've made progress 402 00:30:48.079 --> 00:30:53.880 and come that much farther from where things were that day. And it would 403 00:30:53.880 --> 00:31:00.480 be a very sad day for us if we look back on something from years 404 00:31:00.480 --> 00:31:04.200 ago and said, this still holds up like aoka perfectly fine, Like everything 405 00:31:04.279 --> 00:31:08.599 is fine. No, Like, I don't think there's any media that should 406 00:31:08.640 --> 00:31:14.200 hold up fine after thirty years. I think a lot of them can hold 407 00:31:14.279 --> 00:31:18.519 up better, either because they were ahead of their time, or maybe because 408 00:31:18.559 --> 00:31:22.240 they don't touch upon as many things. You know that will change over time. 409 00:31:22.359 --> 00:31:27.200 Right. I think there are properties you can watch and read that hold 410 00:31:27.279 --> 00:31:33.359 up better just because they're a little more generic, and there's nothing wrong with 411 00:31:33.400 --> 00:31:37.799 that. I think that that is a There can be a very good way 412 00:31:37.799 --> 00:31:44.279 of writing things that way where they hold up over time. But like I 413 00:31:44.319 --> 00:31:49.000 think about the discussions about Lord of the Rings, for example, and the 414 00:31:51.079 --> 00:31:56.039 racism of Tolkien, I think for his time, like Tolkien does appear to 415 00:31:56.079 --> 00:32:00.480 have been a very progressive person and progressive thinker, but even from that perspective, 416 00:32:01.039 --> 00:32:07.599 looking back at it from our today, like his progressive vism was regressive 417 00:32:07.640 --> 00:32:12.400 in some ways. Yeah, I think the total number of spoken lines by 418 00:32:12.400 --> 00:32:15.759 women in those books is like three pages, four pages, something like that. 419 00:32:16.400 --> 00:32:19.799 And I think that that's the other part of the conversation though is also 420 00:32:21.759 --> 00:32:24.799 and again something being of its time doesn't excuse it, but I do think 421 00:32:24.799 --> 00:32:30.440 there's a big difference between someone who was Like all three of these analysises matter 422 00:32:31.039 --> 00:32:36.039 is how does it hold up compared to our current lens, How does it 423 00:32:36.079 --> 00:32:39.720 hold up compared to our lens looking at the time, and how does it 424 00:32:39.920 --> 00:32:45.559 hold up versus like the lens of that particular time, you know, because 425 00:32:45.599 --> 00:32:50.119 there are some things that were written that were seen as very racist even at 426 00:32:50.119 --> 00:32:53.799 the time they were written. Others that were pulling on tropes that were done 427 00:32:54.200 --> 00:33:00.960 by everyone at that time. And again it tell let's me get to another 428 00:33:00.279 --> 00:33:02.279 of the big themes that I think we're really gonna be kind of trying to 429 00:33:02.759 --> 00:33:06.240 not that I think we've lost, but then I think you're gonna help us 430 00:33:06.279 --> 00:33:09.920 refocus on a little bit. When I say these things, I don't mean 431 00:33:09.960 --> 00:33:15.000 that we are going to be the declarative. Here's the answer. You know, 432 00:33:15.119 --> 00:33:19.000 Superman meant this. Batman should have done that. This cause of rate 433 00:33:19.119 --> 00:33:22.680 of media is problematic. That this is not. That's not the point at 434 00:33:22.720 --> 00:33:28.599 all. Also in grad school, one of my favorite professor has made the 435 00:33:28.599 --> 00:33:30.839 comment, and he's speaking here about religion, but I think it can be 436 00:33:30.880 --> 00:33:35.400 applied to anything, which is that it does it. It does its best 437 00:33:35.440 --> 00:33:38.680 when it raises hard questions. It does it. It does its worst when 438 00:33:38.680 --> 00:33:44.640 it offers easy answers to those questions. And for me and your listeners, 439 00:33:44.680 --> 00:33:46.680 I want you to really help hold us to this. I want our job 440 00:33:46.759 --> 00:33:52.839 to be asking questions in new ways, get asking questions that can help people 441 00:33:52.880 --> 00:33:55.839 think about things in new ways, or just acknowledging the questions that the creators 442 00:33:55.839 --> 00:34:00.680 that we're talking about are raising uh through their works. And in times it'll 443 00:34:00.720 --> 00:34:04.400 be we we each have our thoughts and what the answer should be, or 444 00:34:04.720 --> 00:34:07.640 sometimes the creator, you know, Like, I think there are some times 445 00:34:07.680 --> 00:34:12.599 where a Star Trek episode leaves it pretty open in terms of what you think 446 00:34:12.599 --> 00:34:16.039 should or shouldn't happen. I think there are other times where, you know, 447 00:34:16.159 --> 00:34:20.559 like with one of the my favorite episodes, Measure of a Man, 448 00:34:20.840 --> 00:34:24.119 where they raise very interesting questions about androids, But I think the show comes 449 00:34:24.159 --> 00:34:28.679 down pretty hard on the idea that data is, you know, data should 450 00:34:28.719 --> 00:34:32.760 have rights over his own existence. And I think both of those can be 451 00:34:32.800 --> 00:34:36.800 good. But the point is always, I think, more than anything, 452 00:34:36.840 --> 00:34:39.400 I want people to walk away with more questions that they're thinking about, rather 453 00:34:39.400 --> 00:34:42.639 than just saying, oh, well, Matthew and RICKI said this, so 454 00:34:42.679 --> 00:34:45.400 that's the answer, or much more likely, Matthew and Ricky say this, 455 00:34:45.440 --> 00:34:47.880 so the answer must be something else. Yeah. I think one of the 456 00:34:47.920 --> 00:34:53.559 things I suggested is we try to have like an opening question yeah to our 457 00:34:53.599 --> 00:34:58.880 discussions in the future, Like not just say we're going to talk about like 458 00:34:59.039 --> 00:35:01.800 X Men ninety seven, but have like X Men ninety seven brings up this 459 00:35:01.920 --> 00:35:08.840 question about whatever and then go from there and that can inform our discussion. 460 00:35:09.239 --> 00:35:15.840 But I hope also invite listeners to write in with their answers or write in 461 00:35:15.880 --> 00:35:21.800 with their follow up questions or other other questions that they thought up. Definitely, 462 00:35:21.800 --> 00:35:25.840 because I agree, like it's it's really boring to just like listen to 463 00:35:25.880 --> 00:35:31.679 something like a podcast and just have people tell you how it is and then 464 00:35:31.719 --> 00:35:36.880 you're done. I prefer it when I listen to a podcast and I go, 465 00:35:37.039 --> 00:35:39.880 well, okay, let me like do some of my own research now 466 00:35:39.880 --> 00:35:44.760 and like try to figure out what I think about this. Like it's it's 467 00:35:44.800 --> 00:35:47.039 always a good starting point, especially if it's like a little research piece, 468 00:35:47.079 --> 00:35:50.360 like I said, I want to I want to try to do that more. 469 00:35:50.400 --> 00:35:53.840 It's like put a little bit more research like into the history of things 470 00:35:54.719 --> 00:36:01.840 because I love that. But then just like open more doors for listeners and 471 00:36:01.960 --> 00:36:07.239 for us too. I you know, Matthew, you and I have a 472 00:36:07.440 --> 00:36:13.239 history of just talking way too long about things, yep. So I'm sure 473 00:36:13.280 --> 00:36:15.800 that will continue. But I look forward to that, and I look forward 474 00:36:15.800 --> 00:36:19.800 to the Oh I just have like one more thought. It's like, well, 475 00:36:20.480 --> 00:36:22.280 yeah, we don't have time for that now, but maybe like in 476 00:36:22.320 --> 00:36:25.960 the future and we can like have two partners or something like that. Yeah, 477 00:36:25.960 --> 00:36:29.800 I think we might start having regular feedback episodes. And and some of 478 00:36:29.840 --> 00:36:31.119 the feedback episodes might just be like, oh, here's the one more thing 479 00:36:31.159 --> 00:36:35.440 that each one of us thought about, Yeah, you know, feedback to 480 00:36:35.480 --> 00:36:38.519 ourselves. Yeah, exactly exactly. And I will say we've gotten great listener 481 00:36:38.519 --> 00:36:42.599 feedback. We've got some great ones during the Avatar Show. We've gotten some 482 00:36:42.639 --> 00:36:45.719 more from that. We're gonna do that more, and we're gonna definitely be 483 00:36:45.960 --> 00:36:50.840 reading your feedback in these episodes, both after it comes out, but also, 484 00:36:51.000 --> 00:36:52.480 as Riki said, sometimes beforehand, where we'd like to say like, 485 00:36:52.559 --> 00:36:55.920 hey, look, this piece of media is coming up and here or it 486 00:36:57.000 --> 00:36:59.360 might be in the media from ten years ago, but here's an interesting question 487 00:36:59.400 --> 00:37:01.199 we're gonna look at. And that was something we did a lot in the 488 00:37:01.239 --> 00:37:06.840 earlier years of this podcast. It's funny. I was thinking that one of 489 00:37:06.880 --> 00:37:12.360 the lenses of analysis I do sometimes look at media through and I was wonderful 490 00:37:12.440 --> 00:37:14.119 to bring this up, and I think I should bring it up because I 491 00:37:14.119 --> 00:37:20.280 think I've been guilty of it too. Obviously, this media costs an incredible 492 00:37:20.280 --> 00:37:25.960 amount of money to produce, and there are definitely times when the struggle between 493 00:37:27.280 --> 00:37:30.920 the creative team and the people who are paying for the creative team is a 494 00:37:30.920 --> 00:37:34.960 struggle and there are compromises that have to be made, And like when you 495 00:37:34.960 --> 00:37:38.320 brought up that episode, I wonder to what extentive that was part of that, 496 00:37:39.920 --> 00:37:45.719 And I think that there have definitely been times when creative decisions are made 497 00:37:45.559 --> 00:37:50.320 out of a fear or concern over what audiences will want to see or what 498 00:37:50.360 --> 00:37:53.480 not to see. On the episode that actually came out just before this, 499 00:37:53.920 --> 00:37:58.679 my guests were talking about how for the longest time, people thought you couldn't 500 00:37:58.719 --> 00:38:04.679 put a black man as your main hero for a superhero movie on a poster, 501 00:38:05.199 --> 00:38:07.880 and that's why Black Panther, you know, it took so long to 502 00:38:07.920 --> 00:38:10.800 get it made, let alone that Blade had been made decades ago, but 503 00:38:10.920 --> 00:38:17.039 still same with Seang Chi. And but I'd bring all that up to say 504 00:38:17.400 --> 00:38:22.599 I think that that's a very real concern. I think it's over the idealistic 505 00:38:22.639 --> 00:38:24.679 to say so everything should just be completely for creative, because these things do 506 00:38:24.719 --> 00:38:28.559 cost money, and I understand that, but I wish that the creative was 507 00:38:28.639 --> 00:38:31.199 driving it a lot more. But I'll also say I think part of why 508 00:38:31.239 --> 00:38:37.760 this podcast started to focus more on covering media exactly when it came out and 509 00:38:37.760 --> 00:38:43.519 therefore doing more of the kind of broad reach instead of a specific question is 510 00:38:43.639 --> 00:38:47.320 because the week or that really the three days after a new piece of media 511 00:38:47.360 --> 00:38:51.679 comes out is when the most people are searching for it, and so it's 512 00:38:51.679 --> 00:38:53.119 the way to get our podcasts to get the most hits and get the most 513 00:38:53.119 --> 00:38:58.199 listens and increase our audience. And I think that's was a big part of 514 00:38:58.239 --> 00:39:00.840 what was driving me, and there's still gonna be some of that. I 515 00:39:00.880 --> 00:39:02.440 do think it's great to be part of the conversation right when it's relevant. 516 00:39:02.880 --> 00:39:05.920 But I do think we're gonna kind of take a step back from that a 517 00:39:05.920 --> 00:39:08.920 little bit and really be able to look a little bit more at you know, 518 00:39:08.960 --> 00:39:13.760 there are eight million people telling you how good or how bad the new 519 00:39:13.800 --> 00:39:17.280 Ghostbusters movie is, and we haven't done coverage on that yet. I'm going 520 00:39:17.280 --> 00:39:22.159 to do Ghostbusters episode at some point soon, but it's probably gonna be much 521 00:39:22.199 --> 00:39:24.079 more looking at a specific question. Quite likely that might be the time to 522 00:39:24.079 --> 00:39:28.320 talk about nostalgia. I haven't seen the movie yet, so I can't tay 523 00:39:28.400 --> 00:39:30.119 for sure, but I think that's what we're going to try to be going 524 00:39:30.119 --> 00:39:35.360 for a lot more, is how do we look at this through that little 525 00:39:35.360 --> 00:39:38.320 bit deeper lens, not even deeper that sounds pejora to others, but just 526 00:39:38.360 --> 00:39:40.639 how how can we look at through so much different lens than what a lot 527 00:39:40.639 --> 00:39:46.320 of is out there. It's funny. I was going to bring up Ghostbusters 528 00:39:47.079 --> 00:39:53.159 because I was I was looking at the box office numbers and basically that the 529 00:39:53.199 --> 00:40:00.559 new one, Frozen Empire, has matched After Life in kind of like it's 530 00:40:00.639 --> 00:40:07.800 opening weekend box office numbers, and then comparing that to the is it just 531 00:40:07.840 --> 00:40:12.280 called Ghostbusters the all female cast? Right? Yeah, I think it's just 532 00:40:12.320 --> 00:40:20.519 called Ghostbusters. I think that one actually made more money overall than Afterlife and 533 00:40:20.679 --> 00:40:22.920 is on track to have made more money than Frozen Empire, like if the 534 00:40:23.360 --> 00:40:30.440 trends hold up, But that one costs a lot more to make, and 535 00:40:30.519 --> 00:40:34.199 if you watched it, you can tell like they went a little ham with 536 00:40:34.280 --> 00:40:38.480 the special effects of all the ghosts, right, and so yeah, like 537 00:40:38.519 --> 00:40:44.119 when it comes to these studios putting out media, money has to be a 538 00:40:44.159 --> 00:40:49.199 concern, and the success of something you have to look at look at it 539 00:40:49.239 --> 00:40:52.440 through the lens of both the money it brings in but also the cost, 540 00:40:53.119 --> 00:40:59.360 right, And I think unfortunately from the studios perspective, that cost is measured 541 00:40:59.400 --> 00:41:05.199 not only in the actual cost in terms of money was spent on the movie 542 00:41:05.280 --> 00:41:07.679 itself, but also when the negative press it gets. And I think it's 543 00:41:07.719 --> 00:41:12.159 something we've I'm not gonna I think at one point we were trying to get 544 00:41:12.159 --> 00:41:14.880 into responding to a lot of the trolling arguments. We're probably not going to 545 00:41:14.960 --> 00:41:16.679 do that much, but we'll definitely talk about it because I do think that 546 00:41:17.559 --> 00:41:23.760 the there was a public perception that everybody hated that movie. Really they didn't. 547 00:41:23.760 --> 00:41:27.280 It made a lot of money and a lot of people loved that movie, 548 00:41:27.760 --> 00:41:30.639 but as often happens, the people who went online and talked about it 549 00:41:30.880 --> 00:41:34.480 and who were most often you know, retweeted and resent around where the people 550 00:41:34.519 --> 00:41:37.039 were saying, oh my god, get these girls out of my Ghostbusters. 551 00:41:37.079 --> 00:41:39.360 This is so you know, silly and bad and all this kind of stuff. 552 00:41:40.800 --> 00:41:45.320 Yeah, but but here's here's the point I I want to make is 553 00:41:45.360 --> 00:41:50.719 that I agree that all that happened, and it's possible that it has had 554 00:41:50.760 --> 00:41:55.000 a role in some opinions and decisions. But the cost, like the cost 555 00:41:55.039 --> 00:42:00.880 of production is like I think it was like double of what Afterlife? Right, 556 00:42:00.079 --> 00:42:02.760 And again, like if you watch both movies, you can tell based 557 00:42:02.800 --> 00:42:07.880 on like how they use the special effects and the scenes that they set up, 558 00:42:07.360 --> 00:42:14.400 like the the set piece towards the end of The Ghostbusters with the dance 559 00:42:14.880 --> 00:42:20.000 number. I don't know if you recall that one is a really big scene, 560 00:42:20.199 --> 00:42:22.920 like in terms of all the extras and the special effects, because like 561 00:42:22.000 --> 00:42:28.280 ghosts are dancing as well, right, And I think from the studio perspective 562 00:42:29.119 --> 00:42:31.800 like that that had to have been a concern. It's like the overall cost 563 00:42:32.320 --> 00:42:37.199 and then like the little decisions that led to it costing so much. So 564 00:42:38.480 --> 00:42:45.639 yeah, like do execs like red Reddit maybe, but overall I would think, 565 00:42:45.719 --> 00:42:51.760 like the money issue was a bigger thing. Well, but what that 566 00:42:51.800 --> 00:42:54.000 franchise has done, I think if that's true, Like I do think you're 567 00:42:54.039 --> 00:42:58.559 right. The money is definitely a big part of it. But you know, 568 00:42:59.519 --> 00:43:04.119 Kate mcay, Kate McKinnon, Christine wigg Leslie Jones, these he aren't, 569 00:43:04.159 --> 00:43:08.159 you know, demanding huge, huge salaries, And I don't know why 570 00:43:08.199 --> 00:43:14.079 you couldn't have just made a sequel in that universe with you know, a 571 00:43:14.159 --> 00:43:16.320 much more reduced budget in terms of special effects and things like that. Like 572 00:43:16.480 --> 00:43:21.320 I definitely hear you, and I think I think we I think a lot 573 00:43:21.360 --> 00:43:25.119 of people, probably myselves included, overblow the effect of online trolling. But 574 00:43:27.159 --> 00:43:30.239 you know, the Snyder cut was re released, the Snyder cut was or 575 00:43:30.440 --> 00:43:32.599 no, sorry, the Snyder cut. What's the other? Yeah, the 576 00:43:32.719 --> 00:43:37.599 Snaper cut, the Snyder cut was released, The Star Wars movies were changed. 577 00:43:37.599 --> 00:43:40.280 I think we haven't on record in part because of a lot of the 578 00:43:40.280 --> 00:43:45.079 fan pushback. So you're right, we're not in the boardrooms. We have 579 00:43:45.119 --> 00:43:49.199 no way to know, and it's entirely possible that it is much more about 580 00:43:49.199 --> 00:43:53.239 the money. But I do think that the trolling has more of an effect 581 00:43:53.920 --> 00:43:57.559 than I think you're coming from. But you're probably also right. The money 582 00:43:57.639 --> 00:44:05.239 is much more to Yeah, I mean we barring inside information, like we 583 00:44:05.280 --> 00:44:10.599 don't know why certain people aren't brought back four things, but I think it's 584 00:44:10.639 --> 00:44:15.679 notable. Like you're talking about the actresses in that Ghostbusters movie, but the 585 00:44:15.719 --> 00:44:21.559 whole production team changed, right, Like that Ghosts movie was hemmed by like 586 00:44:21.719 --> 00:44:29.079 Paul Faigue and they and for After Life, they brought in right men. 587 00:44:29.440 --> 00:44:31.960 I can't remember his first name, but the son of the original director, 588 00:44:32.239 --> 00:44:37.280 right son of Ivan Rightman. Yeah, well, but I'm just saying it's 589 00:44:37.320 --> 00:44:40.159 not unheard of by any means to keep the same cast, keep the same 590 00:44:40.599 --> 00:44:45.320 canon, but bring in a completely new set of you know, production. 591 00:44:50.920 --> 00:44:53.760 That's a I don't know, that's like a big topic, like in terms 592 00:44:53.800 --> 00:44:58.880 of franchises and stuff like. I pay attention like to a lot of horror 593 00:44:58.920 --> 00:45:06.840 media and right now Scream has gone through a lot of drama. So it 594 00:45:07.320 --> 00:45:10.440 Yeah, I don't have an answer. This would be a great topic for 595 00:45:10.519 --> 00:45:15.480 us to research and dive into. Yeah. Well, and so with that, 596 00:45:15.519 --> 00:45:17.519 what are some of the other topics that you want to either other questions 597 00:45:17.599 --> 00:45:21.400 you want us to explore, or other forms of media that you want us 598 00:45:21.400 --> 00:45:24.039 to dive into more, either you particular stories or medium. I mean, 599 00:45:24.079 --> 00:45:30.960 I just brought it up, but horror, I think is something Have you 600 00:45:30.039 --> 00:45:36.159 ever touched upon the horror franchises at all? Not too much? You know 601 00:45:36.239 --> 00:45:38.599 over on Stranded Panda, the podcast network that I'm still very fond of. 602 00:45:39.239 --> 00:45:43.800 Bill and Ashley's Terror of Theater does great coverage and that kind of stuff, 603 00:45:43.840 --> 00:45:46.400 and we've had them on as guests once or twice. But I've always wanted 604 00:45:46.440 --> 00:45:52.559 to explore that more, especially because from my understanding at least as far back 605 00:45:52.599 --> 00:45:59.360 as the fifties, because horror was seen as so irrelevant. A lot of 606 00:45:59.400 --> 00:46:04.800 the most like critical of the McCarthy era type stuff was happening in horror in 607 00:46:04.840 --> 00:46:07.119 part because it was the one piece of media that the mccarthyites and the rest 608 00:46:07.159 --> 00:46:10.159 of them weren't even looking at. So yeah, I think, and I 609 00:46:10.159 --> 00:46:15.159 think I can go all the way to Jordan Peele today with everything thrown in 610 00:46:15.199 --> 00:46:17.519 there. So yeah, horror is a genre I would definitely love to look 611 00:46:17.519 --> 00:46:22.800 at further. Yeah, I think we should because I mean you said going 612 00:46:22.840 --> 00:46:28.519 back to the fifties, I would say, like fifties era horror was mixed 613 00:46:28.519 --> 00:46:31.800 in more with science fiction, right with like the monster era, like uh 614 00:46:32.440 --> 00:46:37.960 is it them? The giant ants, like a lot of radioactive themed monsters, 615 00:46:37.119 --> 00:46:43.760 not just you know, not just Godzilla, and more modern like it's 616 00:46:43.840 --> 00:46:51.199 it's fascinating. I think modern slasher horror mm hmm. If you think about 617 00:46:51.239 --> 00:46:55.199 it, it's just like blood and gore and like people killing people or supernatural 618 00:46:55.199 --> 00:47:00.079 things killing people, Like it's so much deeper than that, like Texas and 619 00:47:00.239 --> 00:47:05.639 Saw Massacre, the Hills have Eyes, like these franchises have so much going 620 00:47:05.679 --> 00:47:10.079 on in terms of social commentary at the time, that is still very relevant, 621 00:47:10.960 --> 00:47:16.559 and I think like exploring those questions is important because and it's not just 622 00:47:17.000 --> 00:47:20.800 what the people are doing, but it's the people who are doing it. 623 00:47:21.840 --> 00:47:25.840 If you look at not just actors who got their star in horror, but 624 00:47:27.000 --> 00:47:32.760 directors, right, the actual people making movies who got their start in horror 625 00:47:34.599 --> 00:47:42.199 these days, like James Gunn, Guillermo del Toro, I think maybe kind 626 00:47:42.239 --> 00:47:49.119 of Robert Rodriguez, like these people have very deep roots in horror. So 627 00:47:49.320 --> 00:47:54.199 it's also like this breeding ground of talent, I think, because like you 628 00:47:54.840 --> 00:47:59.480 can kind of get into it on the cheap side, so to speak, 629 00:47:59.639 --> 00:48:05.599 and practice in a in a setting that is, you know, like free 630 00:48:05.639 --> 00:48:09.280 from a lot of prying eyes in terms of media criticism and all that, 631 00:48:09.559 --> 00:48:14.159 and just like hone your talent there. I think that's true. And I 632 00:48:14.199 --> 00:48:17.679 think that even just the lines of what is horror, what is science fiction 633 00:48:17.880 --> 00:48:21.920 versus you know, like the Godzilla movies that we love to talk about, 634 00:48:22.000 --> 00:48:24.039 like is that monster horror? I think some of them definitely are. A 635 00:48:24.039 --> 00:48:29.199 lot of them aren't, but they should have a well some of the ones 636 00:48:29.239 --> 00:48:31.039 are just kind of you know, fun people in rubber suits fighting each other, 637 00:48:31.079 --> 00:48:35.119 but a lot of them have a ton of social commentary, and you 638 00:48:35.159 --> 00:48:37.360 can even go much, much, much further. I mentioned Mary Shelley Frankenstein 639 00:48:37.440 --> 00:48:42.119 is the first science fiction novel. I think you can also describe it as 640 00:48:43.039 --> 00:48:45.920 one of, if not the first horror novels in the same kind of way. 641 00:48:46.679 --> 00:48:51.840 Yeah, And to me, there's so much to talk about there, 642 00:48:52.639 --> 00:48:57.840 both because often there's commentary that the directors are making. Also because a lot 643 00:48:57.840 --> 00:49:00.920 of times there's commentary that they're not trying to make, or maybe they are, 644 00:49:00.960 --> 00:49:07.519 but we can definitely see because certainly, I think if you watched the 645 00:49:07.559 --> 00:49:10.079 slasherom movies I grew up on, you know, the Friday the thirteenth to 646 00:49:10.159 --> 00:49:15.079 Nightmare on Elm Streets, one of the first moral lessons you learn is that 647 00:49:15.079 --> 00:49:19.599 if you're a teenager who has sex, you deserve to die, because that's 648 00:49:19.599 --> 00:49:22.320 what every one of those movies shows. And there's always that sort of you 649 00:49:22.360 --> 00:49:27.320 know, sex nagati that like they play on the sexiness to get people there, 650 00:49:27.519 --> 00:49:29.920 but also they always kill the people who have sex, and it's often 651 00:49:30.280 --> 00:49:32.639 the whole last girl syndrome. So yeah, there's tons there. We could 652 00:49:32.639 --> 00:49:37.280 talk about talk more about anime and mangos. I know that's another area that 653 00:49:37.280 --> 00:49:43.000 you want us to explore some more. Yeah, well, I mentioned that 654 00:49:43.039 --> 00:49:46.519 we are in what I would call like a silver age, like they don't 655 00:49:46.559 --> 00:49:52.119 have names, right, but we apply these terms to them. But it 656 00:49:52.320 --> 00:49:59.079 anime right now, Like the ability to watch anime has never been easier, 657 00:50:00.079 --> 00:50:02.400 and I have enjoyed that a lot, and I know like a lot of 658 00:50:04.119 --> 00:50:08.639 people out there have been enjoying it. And it's also weird that we're getting 659 00:50:08.719 --> 00:50:15.519 into this era of adaptations which has been going on in Japan for quite some 660 00:50:15.639 --> 00:50:21.679 time, and they're about is equally bad. It's most of the ones we 661 00:50:21.719 --> 00:50:27.599 are getting in English. So what I want to say about that is that 662 00:50:28.280 --> 00:50:31.280 I had lunch with a friend today and we like to talk about TV, 663 00:50:31.440 --> 00:50:34.920 and I asked about Avatar, like, hey, have you seen Avatars? 664 00:50:34.960 --> 00:50:37.320 Like, yeah, we watched the live action one and now we just started 665 00:50:37.320 --> 00:50:43.239 season one of the animated Avatar series. I said, oh, that's good 666 00:50:43.280 --> 00:50:45.719 because I think that one's better. So, you know, in the past, 667 00:50:45.800 --> 00:50:50.760 on our Avatar cover, which we mentioned who is this for, right, 668 00:50:50.840 --> 00:50:52.639 and one of the points was, well, it's for people who maybe 669 00:50:52.800 --> 00:50:59.719 didn't necessarily watch the animated show, and it gives them away an entry point 670 00:51:00.159 --> 00:51:04.360 into the fandom. So there was an example of that. You know, 671 00:51:04.440 --> 00:51:08.760 my friend, because they watched the new live action one have now got into 672 00:51:08.800 --> 00:51:12.800 the animated one. I hope, I hope he enjoys it. I hope 673 00:51:13.800 --> 00:51:17.000 he likes it. But that's the thing. And then and so you know, 674 00:51:17.360 --> 00:51:22.400 it comes back to what you said earlier about money. Yeah, if 675 00:51:22.440 --> 00:51:30.800 it makes the studio money and kind of prolongs the franchise, I guess then 676 00:51:30.960 --> 00:51:36.719 we'll continue to get things like this because that that's ultimately for the studios what 677 00:51:36.800 --> 00:51:38.920 it's about, right, Like if you have a property that you know is 678 00:51:39.000 --> 00:51:45.840 successful, Avatar the Last Airbender, you don't want it to just end like 679 00:51:45.000 --> 00:51:49.760 nothing. That's the other thing about fandom now is that nothing ever ends. 680 00:51:50.199 --> 00:51:52.679 No one ever dies, no character ever dies, nothing ever ends, and 681 00:51:52.760 --> 00:51:59.679 the soaka must always have to be continued in you know, Captain America will 682 00:51:59.719 --> 00:52:02.159 appear You're next in this movie, right, as we always get at the 683 00:52:02.199 --> 00:52:07.519 end of the MCU movie, right, because that is the perpetual money maker 684 00:52:08.280 --> 00:52:13.920 is once you hit upon a formula or a set of characters or a world 685 00:52:14.519 --> 00:52:19.760 that people like I say, you like, they gotta keep milking that, 686 00:52:20.280 --> 00:52:24.280 which if we like these worlds good, I think for the most part, 687 00:52:24.679 --> 00:52:30.480 sometimes it's disappointing. And we'll certainly talk about that about like the balance of 688 00:52:30.519 --> 00:52:37.280 being excited that there's another Star Wars series versus disappointment that maybe that Star Wars 689 00:52:37.280 --> 00:52:40.639 series isn't as good as we as past ones. I think it's really true, 690 00:52:42.800 --> 00:52:45.440 but we're getting more Star Wars. Like you and I have both lived 691 00:52:45.480 --> 00:52:52.639 through eras where it was like decades between a movie I really thought I was 692 00:52:52.639 --> 00:52:57.159 doing with Star Wars after the Drinkles, and we've read the books, like, 693 00:52:57.599 --> 00:53:00.320 yeah, I've read so many of those books because I just wanted more 694 00:53:00.360 --> 00:53:06.679 stories with lu Khan, Lea Lando, et cetera. Yeah, And I 695 00:53:06.719 --> 00:53:12.840 will say, just going back to what you're saying more about anime, you 696 00:53:12.880 --> 00:53:15.280 know, one of the reasons why it's not easier to watch, especially here 697 00:53:15.320 --> 00:53:17.039 in the United States for in other countries is that there is a lot more 698 00:53:17.039 --> 00:53:22.880 of its streaming and a lot of people can watch doubt, which is great, 699 00:53:22.079 --> 00:53:25.559 and what I'm about to say may well be heresy, But I think 700 00:53:25.599 --> 00:53:29.760 also another way that it's easier for some of us, those of us with 701 00:53:29.880 --> 00:53:34.000 ADHD or things like that to watch is that studios are now putting a lot 702 00:53:34.079 --> 00:53:39.920 more money and hiring much better translators and writers and actors for dubs. Because 703 00:53:40.440 --> 00:53:46.360 I am someone for whom with my ADHD and other neurodivergence, sitting and staring 704 00:53:46.400 --> 00:53:51.239 at a screen so that I can read everything is very difficult for me. 705 00:53:51.480 --> 00:53:53.840 I'm able to do it, and definitely is a lot of things that make 706 00:53:53.840 --> 00:53:58.079 it worthwhile, but especially for a show, it's really hard for me to 707 00:53:58.079 --> 00:54:01.280 sustain and something I want to keep getting better at. And I'm teaching myself 708 00:54:01.320 --> 00:54:07.480 to get better and better at watching stuff that isn't dubbed and just reading the 709 00:54:07.519 --> 00:54:14.199 subtitles. But there's a lot of great pieces that I you know, Full 710 00:54:14.239 --> 00:54:15.760 Metal Alchemist, which I really want to talk to you about when you get 711 00:54:15.760 --> 00:54:20.280 a chance to watch some of it. I watched that because of the it 712 00:54:20.320 --> 00:54:23.719 was dubbed into English, and the English actors and translated. The writing was 713 00:54:23.719 --> 00:54:28.960 fantastic in a way that so often it isn't. So it's just one more 714 00:54:29.000 --> 00:54:31.119 part, and I'm sure that's the conversation will have. Is because I am 715 00:54:31.119 --> 00:54:37.880 absolutely sure that there are elements of the original that I'm completely missing. And 716 00:54:38.079 --> 00:54:43.960 even with what was the first movie, I think it was on a Kinsin 717 00:54:44.000 --> 00:54:47.159 movie, the first Kinchin movie we brought on where you talked about how the 718 00:54:47.559 --> 00:54:52.760 translation that Paul and I had gotten was wrong because it's you know, it 719 00:54:52.840 --> 00:54:57.320 was the word not to not cut versus to not kill. But I also 720 00:54:57.400 --> 00:55:00.920 think that like when you can make things eighty percent accessible to a group who 721 00:55:01.000 --> 00:55:04.559 are never gonna be able to experience it as one hundred percent accessible, that's 722 00:55:04.960 --> 00:55:13.480 still step forward. Yeah. I mean, in general, when people get 723 00:55:13.480 --> 00:55:21.000 on their high horses about sub versus dub I think it's it's there's no right 724 00:55:21.039 --> 00:55:29.159 answer to it. I obviously I prefer watching in or listening in Japanese, 725 00:55:29.559 --> 00:55:36.119 and I often have it with the English subtitles because that's just how the television 726 00:55:36.159 --> 00:55:39.880 works. But also like if Sarah is there with me, my wife, 727 00:55:40.199 --> 00:55:46.519 and I notice because I'm like listening and reading and I notice when the translations 728 00:55:46.559 --> 00:55:52.039 are I'll just say, like, wonky, I don't know. This is 729 00:55:52.079 --> 00:55:57.920 something I've been thinking about a lot with translation, is that you can't just 730 00:55:58.199 --> 00:56:05.840 do like a word for word transliteration, because you know, dialogue and conversation 731 00:56:06.360 --> 00:56:12.400 is often about feeling. I was watching a show you U Hawk show, 732 00:56:12.679 --> 00:56:16.880 the live action one, which is I highly do not recommend. I'm a 733 00:56:16.960 --> 00:56:22.239 huge fan of the original manga and I was thinking about catching up and watching 734 00:56:22.280 --> 00:56:29.639 the anime version, but this live action one takes like three separate storylines, 735 00:56:30.320 --> 00:56:35.559 like three separate arcs, and condenses it into four episodes of a TV show. 736 00:56:35.880 --> 00:56:38.519 I was like, what have you done? But my point was there 737 00:56:38.599 --> 00:56:44.199 was an interesting scene in it where two characters are in a hospital with one 738 00:56:44.239 --> 00:56:50.280 of the character's mother and she's she starts coughing because she's in the hospital because 739 00:56:50.280 --> 00:56:54.679 she's sick, and the sun character says, oh coscissan, which is just 740 00:56:54.760 --> 00:57:00.400 mother. He says mother twice, but the subtitle says like are you okay, 741 00:57:01.679 --> 00:57:07.199 right, instead of just mother, because like the context is that he's 742 00:57:07.280 --> 00:57:14.239 concerned for his mother, and I think that comes through in the acting the 743 00:57:14.280 --> 00:57:20.719 way that the character intonates saying oh cossan. But if you don't know what 744 00:57:20.800 --> 00:57:23.880 he's saying, then it doesn't matter like how he's saying it, so you 745 00:57:23.960 --> 00:57:29.480 have to translate that into like what he means, right and yeah, And 746 00:57:29.519 --> 00:57:32.159 so that's why I like I'm okay. I'm coming around of being okay with 747 00:57:32.280 --> 00:57:37.000 like, however you want to consume it? And I don't know, like 748 00:57:37.639 --> 00:57:40.880 sub versus, I think sometimes like sub and dove actually uses different translations, 749 00:57:40.920 --> 00:57:47.000 even maybe because maybe a dub of that scene, the character in English would 750 00:57:47.079 --> 00:57:51.360 just say mother like, mother like, and you would maybe get what he 751 00:57:51.480 --> 00:57:55.400 means through the way he's saying it right, that you wouldn't get if you're 752 00:57:55.440 --> 00:57:59.639 creating the written word. Yeah, And I think that's so true. And 753 00:57:59.679 --> 00:58:01.760 I it's interesting you went there, because I often think it becomes the most 754 00:58:01.760 --> 00:58:06.679 important is with the idioms, you know, whether a phrase that like, 755 00:58:06.719 --> 00:58:08.480 you know, we say like, oh yeah, that really takes the cake 756 00:58:09.199 --> 00:58:13.599 if you translate that into some other language. People brought you no idea, 757 00:58:13.800 --> 00:58:17.960 but there's probably other I imagine most languages have a similar idiom that means something 758 00:58:19.000 --> 00:58:22.360 similar or at least a similar phrase, you know. And I will say 759 00:58:22.360 --> 00:58:28.840 that's one other thing. I wish the strike had been settled far sooner. 760 00:58:29.079 --> 00:58:30.920 I wish that. I'm glad the Union got a lot of things they wanted. 761 00:58:30.920 --> 00:58:35.360 I wish they'd gotten even more. But I will say that one silver 762 00:58:35.440 --> 00:58:37.039 lining, at least from me and I think I heard this from a lot 763 00:58:37.039 --> 00:58:40.559 of you fans and creators, is that during the strike, a lot of 764 00:58:40.639 --> 00:58:45.119 us were given a good push to look outside the traditional American media system in 765 00:58:45.159 --> 00:58:50.079 the big Hollywood studios. And I definitely wanted to do a lot more things 766 00:58:50.079 --> 00:58:52.400 that are not created in the United States, and a lot of that will 767 00:58:52.440 --> 00:58:58.239 be Japan, both because I think that Japanese media is probably the like the 768 00:58:58.280 --> 00:59:02.800 second most influential to English speaking geeks after you know, American or British, 769 00:59:04.280 --> 00:59:07.760 but also you know, and but also because of your skills and knowledge and 770 00:59:07.800 --> 00:59:12.079 experience. But there's also great stuff being made all around the world, and 771 00:59:12.159 --> 00:59:15.119 I'm looking forward to seeing, you know, like there you know, stuff 772 00:59:15.159 --> 00:59:20.239 from Italy, France, China, Africa, you know that we can talk 773 00:59:20.239 --> 00:59:24.119 about and look into and and and they're due for their research. And also 774 00:59:24.119 --> 00:59:29.360 I think it'll be very important that Reeky is my co host. But just 775 00:59:29.400 --> 00:59:32.239 as happened when Paul is the co host or Jacob's the co host, we're 776 00:59:32.239 --> 00:59:36.639 often probably gonna have a third person. It's a lot easier to have a 777 00:59:36.639 --> 00:59:39.039 co host than try and recruit a guest for every week. But I'm hoping 778 00:59:39.079 --> 00:59:43.239 at least one or two episodes a month. We'll probably have a third person 779 00:59:43.280 --> 00:59:46.679 in here, often just because it's a great person who has other great opinions, 780 00:59:47.000 --> 00:59:51.280 but also because sometimes it'll be someone who represents a different perspective than either 781 00:59:51.280 --> 00:59:54.119 of the two of us. Can Reeky and I are very different, but 782 00:59:54.159 --> 00:59:57.519 we're both mask and presenting. We're both, you know, geeks of a 783 00:59:57.519 --> 01:00:02.039 certain generation. You know, there's some ways in which they're there. There's 784 01:00:02.079 --> 01:00:06.800 never a way we can get every voice onto the podcast, and certainly I 785 01:00:06.840 --> 01:00:08.320 don't want any person to feel like they're Okay, you're here to be my 786 01:00:08.400 --> 01:00:12.559 black guest or my gay guest or whatever it is. But I just think 787 01:00:12.599 --> 01:00:15.519 that there's there's a lot of perspectives you and I have They're gonna be great. 788 01:00:15.559 --> 01:00:17.639 But also having more guests is just always gonna add to the conversation. 789 01:00:22.079 --> 01:00:27.920 Yeah, I always appreciate you when you have me on to talk about something 790 01:00:28.079 --> 01:00:32.440 like anime based or japan based and I and I know, like, you're 791 01:00:32.440 --> 01:00:37.880 not doing it just because I'm Japanese like it. It's because we always have 792 01:00:38.000 --> 01:00:45.960 good conversations. But I am happy to provide what uh lived experiences or like 793 01:00:46.159 --> 01:00:51.639 research I've done because I can like do research in both languages and try to 794 01:00:51.679 --> 01:00:55.960 find out stuff about things. And I think that's I think it's important to 795 01:00:57.119 --> 01:01:04.519 consider all perspectives on things. And it doesn't mean that people are there just 796 01:01:05.119 --> 01:01:08.039 because they like it's complicated, like they're not just there because of who they 797 01:01:08.079 --> 01:01:12.400 are like that, you know, that's what they bring. But you have 798 01:01:12.440 --> 01:01:15.000 to you have to listen. You have to listen to other people, right, 799 01:01:15.079 --> 01:01:17.679 so at some point you have to have them on. I think I 800 01:01:17.679 --> 01:01:23.440 think the key difference is you you shouldn't just have people on on those episodes. 801 01:01:23.960 --> 01:01:29.119 Yeah, right, Like I have been on to talk about you know, 802 01:01:29.360 --> 01:01:32.119 like we say Green Lantern Sinestro, which has nothing to do with being 803 01:01:32.199 --> 01:01:36.400 Japanese. That was the first thing I remember, that was the first thing 804 01:01:36.400 --> 01:01:42.320 I think we brought you on fore, So that I think that's the important 805 01:01:42.360 --> 01:01:46.960 thing of like not tokenizing people is don't don't just engage with them on the 806 01:01:47.039 --> 01:01:52.079 topic of like whatever their identities. I just use like big air quote parentheses 807 01:01:52.559 --> 01:01:57.239 for listeners. I think it's very true. And I'll also say for listeners, 808 01:01:57.960 --> 01:02:00.199 if you have ideas of other people, you should have as definitely please 809 01:02:00.280 --> 01:02:06.119 let us know either yourself or I'm sure everyone out there has great opinions. 810 01:02:06.119 --> 01:02:07.840 I would like someone who, like you know, has some content out there 811 01:02:07.840 --> 01:02:10.519 already that I can listen to, or as you know, some some background 812 01:02:10.599 --> 01:02:14.000 or something like that. But if you think you'd make a good guest, 813 01:02:14.079 --> 01:02:15.400 or if you think that you know another creator and you want to send me 814 01:02:15.400 --> 01:02:19.760 their Twitter account or their TikTok or their podcast or anything like that, let 815 01:02:19.800 --> 01:02:25.519 me know, because yeah, I think part of Riki why you know you 816 01:02:25.559 --> 01:02:29.000 are someone who I know could reach out to because you and I had formed 817 01:02:29.000 --> 01:02:34.400 a connection in other ways. And there are people who I have now you 818 01:02:34.480 --> 01:02:37.880 know, built contacts with. Jessica Plumber, someone who have become very good 819 01:02:37.880 --> 01:02:40.320 friends with. I've had her on for a whole range of topics, and 820 01:02:40.800 --> 01:02:45.760 when there is something about feminism in the superhero world, she's the first person 821 01:02:45.800 --> 01:02:50.920 I look to. But I know there's also there's others, and I'm always 822 01:02:50.960 --> 01:02:52.519 trying to expand that pool. The pool is still a lot more narrow than 823 01:02:52.519 --> 01:02:55.880 I would want it to be right now, And so listeners, you've got 824 01:02:55.880 --> 01:03:00.599 thoughts and ideas, definitely please let us know. Well, Reeky has been 825 01:03:00.639 --> 01:03:05.039 a great conversation. There's a lot more we can say, and we're gonna 826 01:03:05.039 --> 01:03:08.480 have a special bonus episode for the members on give you just a little taste 827 01:03:08.519 --> 01:03:14.360 of our opinions on the one piece live action. We will do about that 828 01:03:14.440 --> 01:03:16.039 later, but we have a lot of things to say already, And of 829 01:03:16.079 --> 01:03:20.639 course if you aren't don't have access to that, you can become a member 830 01:03:21.159 --> 01:03:23.599 from the five dollars a month fifty five dollars a year. With Wreeky now 831 01:03:23.679 --> 01:03:27.440 on board as a co host, I'm gonna start making bonus full episodes what 832 01:03:27.519 --> 01:03:30.679 you do on the Star Wars podcast just for members. As a member, 833 01:03:30.000 --> 01:03:32.679 you're a member of the Ethical Panda, which is both of these podcasts. 834 01:03:32.760 --> 01:03:37.360 You get access to both of those, but if you just want superher ethics, 835 01:03:37.480 --> 01:03:38.880 you can just listen to those. That's just fine too. So, 836 01:03:39.440 --> 01:03:44.760 uh Reeky, do you have any last questions or thoughts or piece of media 837 01:03:44.840 --> 01:03:45.920 or something like that you wanted to raise that you're looking forward to exploring. 838 01:03:50.960 --> 01:03:58.440 I think I just want to reiterate like, horror is amazing, and especially 839 01:03:58.480 --> 01:04:03.800 when you're talking about like the internation media. I like the number of horror 840 01:04:03.880 --> 01:04:09.119 things that I watch from other countries, whether it's like these days, there's 841 01:04:09.159 --> 01:04:13.599 a lot of great Korean horror, a lot of Spanish language stuff. I've 842 01:04:13.599 --> 01:04:17.280 been watching Italian as well, obviously, like Italian Suspiria is one of the 843 01:04:17.320 --> 01:04:25.199 all time classics that I think is a genre that really go. It is 844 01:04:25.599 --> 01:04:30.960 deeply international, and because of the way horror is structured, like the things 845 01:04:31.000 --> 01:04:36.639 that scare people is different, right, like culturally, like the folk tales 846 01:04:36.679 --> 01:04:41.280 and the legends people tell, And that to me is what makes horror so 847 01:04:41.440 --> 01:04:46.400 deep. Is like seeing another culture's boogieyman, so to speak. Yeah, 848 01:04:46.679 --> 01:04:51.400 is very fascinating to me, and I think that becomes really interesting both looking 849 01:04:53.039 --> 01:04:59.079 like internationally but also looking chronologically. There's a great thing I read a while 850 01:04:59.159 --> 01:05:03.480 ago that was basically about how I think this lined up to around generationtion CK's 851 01:05:03.679 --> 01:05:06.360 millennial, but the years they were looking at might have been a little bit 852 01:05:06.400 --> 01:05:10.559 off from that, but it was basically saying how at one point the cultural 853 01:05:10.599 --> 01:05:14.840 obsession was with vampires, and then it became the cultural obsession was with zombies, 854 01:05:15.159 --> 01:05:17.119 and like what was that about and what was a cultural reasoning for that? 855 01:05:17.199 --> 01:05:19.280 And I think that that's that, you know, they made some really 856 01:05:19.320 --> 01:05:27.159 good points about that, and Professor Matthew. Professor Matthew Cappelle also has some 857 01:05:27.599 --> 01:05:30.639 great theories about that in terms of uh, vampires more being elitist and zombies 858 01:05:30.719 --> 01:05:34.400 being much more populist. And where does those different fears come from and things 859 01:05:34.440 --> 01:05:38.719 like that, you know, the fear of the elites versus the fear of 860 01:05:39.079 --> 01:05:42.719 you know, the the unthinking mass uh. And I think, you know, 861 01:05:42.800 --> 01:05:45.000 that's another great analysis to look at. So yeah, it's and I 862 01:05:45.079 --> 01:05:46.719 think that's more of the kind of thing we can look at. It is 863 01:05:46.760 --> 01:05:49.039 like, read some of these articles, do more of that research to go 864 01:05:49.480 --> 01:05:57.719 to go a lot deeper clowns, Like I'd read a research piece basically that 865 01:05:58.000 --> 01:06:04.239 says our obsession was like scary clowns is rooted in the real life serial killer 866 01:06:04.280 --> 01:06:11.440 John Wayne Gacy. You can he often dressed up as a clown, I 867 01:06:11.440 --> 01:06:15.360 believe to lure victims or something like that, or that was his day job. 868 01:06:15.400 --> 01:06:17.840 I don't remember that part of it, but like that's what he is 869 01:06:17.880 --> 01:06:25.239 famous for. And that's like when clowns in media started to get scary, 870 01:06:25.320 --> 01:06:30.079 like it's Stephen King's, it's you may well be onto something. I will 871 01:06:30.079 --> 01:06:32.920 say, until this moment, I didn't know that John Wayne Gacy dressed up 872 01:06:32.920 --> 01:06:35.519 as a clown. I do know that a clown shot water in my face 873 01:06:35.519 --> 01:06:38.840 when I was five years old at the circus and I've hated him ever since. 874 01:06:39.760 --> 01:06:42.480 But you know, it may well be so who knows, Danny Clown's 875 01:06:42.480 --> 01:06:44.880 out there in the audience. I apologize, it just happened to me. 876 01:06:45.119 --> 01:06:48.400 Who knows, But yeah, I'm moving forward to these conversations. We have 877 01:06:48.440 --> 01:06:54.320 a great, great time. We're bringing this episode under seventy minutes, which 878 01:06:54.360 --> 01:06:56.559 is going to be my goal for our main episodes, and try to be 879 01:06:56.920 --> 01:07:00.360 one hour and a half for the total episode of bonus content, hopefully lower. 880 01:07:00.760 --> 01:07:02.880 When Paul gets on here, all bets are off because the three of 881 01:07:02.960 --> 01:07:09.039 us are by far, with Jessica Plumber coming and forth the most phone. 882 01:07:09.039 --> 01:07:12.079 We did speakers on this podcast, but hopefully we'll have a lot to say. 883 01:07:12.320 --> 01:07:14.960 So Reggie, thank you so much to our listeners. Thank you so 884 01:07:15.039 --> 01:07:17.320 much to our members. You're awesome. You're what's helping make all this happen. 885 01:07:17.960 --> 01:07:20.719 You're why I can people can see me on the video again. Because 886 01:07:20.719 --> 01:07:25.880 I have a new computer. I still have a lot of it to take 887 01:07:25.920 --> 01:07:28.719 care of, but more membership is great. But to those more members, 888 01:07:28.760 --> 01:07:30.000 thank you so much. Your modus content is coming in just a moment. 889 01:07:30.119 --> 01:07:33.400 For everybody else, thank you so much. We have spoken. Yep, 890 01:07:33.519 --> 01:07:38.400 no, I don't know. I need to sign on. There you go, 891 01:07:47.440 --> 01:07:49.519 all right? For our members, welcome back. Thank you so much. 892 01:07:49.559 --> 01:07:54.760 As always, so, Reggie, before you even touch the live action, 893 01:07:54.920 --> 01:07:58.440 talk to me about your first experiences of One Piece, because if I 894 01:07:58.480 --> 01:08:00.400 understand correctly, you got into it not with the anime but with the manga. 895 01:08:00.400 --> 01:08:04.920 Correct, Yeah, I mean, but what is manga for those are 896 01:08:04.960 --> 01:08:09.400 Audians who don't know that term. Well, manga is just comics, comic 897 01:08:09.559 --> 01:08:14.760 books in Japan, right, that's just I think it's just a word for 898 01:08:14.840 --> 01:08:19.680 like drawn characters or something like that. But in Japan, so in the 899 01:08:19.800 --> 01:08:25.159 United States, comic books come out once a month, is that right? 900 01:08:25.319 --> 01:08:29.800 Yeah? Yeah, and so you get twelve issues a year. In Japan, 901 01:08:30.319 --> 01:08:38.119 a lot of this media comes out weekly. So like One Piece or 902 01:08:38.199 --> 01:08:45.399 Dragonball, you would get fifty two episodes a year, and then those are 903 01:08:45.680 --> 01:08:51.680 condensed into the novels like the books, and those have I don't know how 904 01:08:51.680 --> 01:08:55.760 many of them have maybe like ten episodes in each book or something like that. 905 01:08:56.079 --> 01:08:59.520 So usually like every year you get one or two of the books as 906 01:08:59.560 --> 01:09:04.000 well. Mm hmm, basically like the equivalent of our graphic novels here. 907 01:09:04.880 --> 01:09:14.800 And one piece in particular was publish is published in a franchise called Shonen Jump, 908 01:09:15.000 --> 01:09:17.680 which just is like Shonen is the Japanese word for young boy, young 909 01:09:17.760 --> 01:09:21.359 man, and then the Jump is just the brand. So it's like clearly 910 01:09:21.439 --> 01:09:27.600 like it's for young boys, but people of all generations and you know, 911 01:09:27.680 --> 01:09:32.880 all gender do read read the Shonen Jump, but it's primary primary audience is 912 01:09:32.960 --> 01:09:39.479 young young boys, right, And this was the this was the magazine that, 913 01:09:39.640 --> 01:09:44.279 like Dragonball was published in as well, so I was very familiar with 914 01:09:44.319 --> 01:09:47.760 it. And just one week it was actually like before the series started, 915 01:09:48.159 --> 01:09:54.319 there was like a preview or a like a one shot. They often they 916 01:09:54.359 --> 01:09:58.359 would often have like one shots from new authors, kind of like testing out 917 01:09:58.560 --> 01:10:01.680 the market or test out their art style and whatnot. So I remember it 918 01:10:01.720 --> 01:10:06.359 was I think it was called Romance Dawn, which I believe is also the 919 01:10:06.439 --> 01:10:11.520 name of the first episode of the actual manga run. And it was just 920 01:10:11.560 --> 01:10:17.479 like a one shot of this goofy pirate kid who has gummy abilities because the 921 01:10:17.560 --> 01:10:26.000 aid of magical fruit, and it's kind of a quirky pre industrial, right, 922 01:10:26.039 --> 01:10:30.560 like pre industrial fantasy world. Like it's clearly not Earth, but it 923 01:10:30.640 --> 01:10:36.279 has like a lot of Earth, like seventeen hundred's ish technology and like the 924 01:10:36.319 --> 01:10:45.439 pirate era of our real history. It's just a fun, fun universe. 925 01:10:46.079 --> 01:10:51.199 Yeah, And it was from the beginning and now is I think it's like 926 01:10:51.239 --> 01:10:58.000 the second longest ongoing franchise in history, maybe the first at this point, 927 01:10:58.359 --> 01:11:04.199 but it has obviously become like the worldwide phenomenon and now like I think the 928 01:11:04.239 --> 01:11:11.399 live action adaptation is the best live action adaptation of an anime I've ever watched, 929 01:11:11.760 --> 01:11:15.199 and it was phenomenon. I'm looking for more of it, and it's 930 01:11:15.319 --> 01:11:21.119 just I don't know. Since Dragon Ball, it is definitely the manga series 931 01:11:21.199 --> 01:11:25.800 that I collected the most books of. I mean, I actually probably have 932 01:11:25.960 --> 01:11:30.439 more books because it's gone on longer, but it was the one that I 933 01:11:30.560 --> 01:11:34.920 tried to keep up with and I stopped because it just kept going and going. 934 01:11:35.239 --> 01:11:38.279 But I have, like, I don't know, like forty of the 935 01:11:38.319 --> 01:11:45.079 books. I think, yeah, no, that's great, and I I 936 01:11:45.119 --> 01:11:46.239 think one of the reason why the People was so interesting to talk about one 937 01:11:46.239 --> 01:11:51.199 piece is because I the exact tops experience. I went into it knowing almost 938 01:11:51.199 --> 01:11:56.039 nothing about it. The only thing really that I knew was that a lot 939 01:11:56.079 --> 01:12:00.239 of people there's some anime I've really enjoyed, but for the most part, 940 01:12:00.319 --> 01:12:02.479 it's not really a genre that I have no critique of it. I think 941 01:12:02.479 --> 01:12:06.800 it's fantastic, it's not really one that speaks to me, and a lot 942 01:12:06.800 --> 01:12:11.199 of people say, look, if you ever really wanted to watch an anime, 943 01:12:11.359 --> 01:12:15.760 that that is the closest you can get in English language live action show 944 01:12:15.880 --> 01:12:19.760 to the spirit of this particular kind of anime, This is it, and 945 01:12:20.520 --> 01:12:24.039 I think it's awesome. They were really able to capture that so well. 946 01:12:26.960 --> 01:12:32.600 Yeah, I was thinking about this the other day because there was a terrible 947 01:12:32.720 --> 01:12:38.520 dragon Ball live action movie called dragon Ball Evolution, and first off, like 948 01:12:38.560 --> 01:12:45.920 they completely changed pretty much everything about it, which was weird, but also 949 01:12:46.640 --> 01:12:51.560 dragon like, you can't make dragon Ball live action, like we were talking 950 01:12:51.560 --> 01:12:57.359 in the main episode about costs, and there's just like no point in spending 951 01:12:57.399 --> 01:13:00.279 the CGI budget to do what they do in dragon Ball if you can just 952 01:13:00.319 --> 01:13:04.800 do it in animation, because it'll be much cheaper and it'll be much cleaner, 953 01:13:05.319 --> 01:13:11.920 like the speed of the characters and the combat and dragon Ball doesn't translate 954 01:13:11.960 --> 01:13:16.600 to live action at all because it just it looks goofy. I think of 955 01:13:16.800 --> 01:13:24.000 like Lego Loss doing the old font surfing in Return of the King, Like 956 01:13:24.279 --> 01:13:27.920 it's like the CGI was not there yet. But it's also like the action 957 01:13:28.079 --> 01:13:32.079 looks goofy, like for a quote unquote real person to be doing that. 958 01:13:32.840 --> 01:13:36.680 I mean, I think if you want to watch a lot of the earlier 959 01:13:36.720 --> 01:13:41.720 comic book movies, even after like the you know, I think almost all 960 01:13:41.800 --> 01:13:45.399 the twentieth century, translating that stuff to live action was really hard to do 961 01:13:45.520 --> 01:13:50.079 and a lot of time the fight scenes look ridiculous. Yeah, and even 962 01:13:50.159 --> 01:13:56.239 now, like that's probably one of the weaker aspects of one piece because like 963 01:13:56.279 --> 01:14:01.720 when he uses his gom gom ability, it it looks goofy. I think 964 01:14:01.800 --> 01:14:06.800 the CGI is more believable than it has been in the past, and so 965 01:14:06.840 --> 01:14:12.479 it's okay, like it passes like the smell test of like it doesn't necessarily 966 01:14:12.520 --> 01:14:16.039 look like CGI, but it's also a little goofy that you were having like 967 01:14:16.079 --> 01:14:21.039 a real life person like punch someone in this way, So that that is 968 01:14:21.079 --> 01:14:27.000 a thing that I have to concede is like not translating the greatest, but 969 01:14:27.079 --> 01:14:30.760 I also think it's actually the least important thing about one piece. I mean, 970 01:14:30.800 --> 01:14:34.039 I have to say. And this is again probably where you know, 971 01:14:34.159 --> 01:14:38.600 I like, I think it was a very interesting show and real interesting questions. 972 01:14:38.640 --> 01:14:43.199 It is very much not what I enjoy. To me, the goofiness 973 01:14:43.279 --> 01:14:46.640 wasn't the punch, wasn't the animation of the punch. It's him saying like 974 01:14:47.640 --> 01:14:51.479 whatever really Dick's catchphrase he says with every punch. That just made me go, 975 01:14:51.680 --> 01:14:56.840 like, this kid's just annoying. And again that's just me, But 976 01:14:57.000 --> 01:15:03.319 like I wonder that, like I'm trying to better understand this because it it 977 01:15:03.359 --> 01:15:09.600 feels like the whole rest of the show is so intentionally goofy that wouldn't you 978 01:15:09.640 --> 01:15:12.520 want the fight scenes to look just as goofy as the rest of the show 979 01:15:12.560 --> 01:15:15.079 is. Or is it just that I see as goofy when it really isn't. 980 01:15:15.640 --> 01:15:17.520 Well you, I mean you're talking about him calling out his moves, 981 01:15:17.600 --> 01:15:23.399 right, yeah, Like it's his primary move as I believe, go pistol, 982 01:15:24.119 --> 01:15:28.119 right, gum gum pistol. When he just like throws his gummy arm 983 01:15:28.239 --> 01:15:34.199 like way back and then punches it forward and again like that that's just anime. 984 01:15:34.560 --> 01:15:39.560 Like yeah, when they make that joke about like all great fighters call 985 01:15:39.640 --> 01:15:43.479 out their moves, that is like a that was a very tongue in cheek 986 01:15:43.560 --> 01:15:47.800 meta joke in the story, but also about the whole industry. Like in 987 01:15:48.239 --> 01:15:54.039 Dragon Ball, the most famous move is Kamehameha, which is Goku's like big 988 01:15:54.159 --> 01:16:00.800 energy blast and you have to have that, Like Bleach is another where they 989 01:16:00.840 --> 01:16:03.720 all like they have these giant swords and they all have moves that they call 990 01:16:03.800 --> 01:16:08.680 out when they when they do their maneuvers. And the reason is because you 991 01:16:08.800 --> 01:16:14.039 want it to you want audiences to recognize, right, right, Like it's 992 01:16:15.560 --> 01:16:19.680 I don't do you watch professional wrestling like WWE and all that. I've seen 993 01:16:19.720 --> 01:16:23.560 a little bit of the monitor. I surely grew up watching it on the 994 01:16:23.680 --> 01:16:26.119 WWF era, but yeah, I've seen some of it. I know, 995 01:16:26.199 --> 01:16:30.520 Yeah, they all have signature moves and right, and the wrestlers themselves aren't 996 01:16:30.520 --> 01:16:33.159 gonna call them out because they're not miked up, like you, you can't 997 01:16:33.199 --> 01:16:36.960 hear them. But that's what the commentators are for, right, Like the 998 01:16:38.000 --> 01:16:43.199 commentator is there to narrate the action for one and like bring some drama and 999 01:16:43.239 --> 01:16:46.680 excitement, but also to like explain things and then in that key moment to 1000 01:16:46.800 --> 01:16:50.520 say, like the rock's going for the rock bottom or the people's elbow, 1001 01:16:50.600 --> 01:16:54.840 and to name the move so that the fans know what it is and can 1002 01:16:54.880 --> 01:16:58.359 get excited about it. And I think that that, to me is like 1003 01:16:58.399 --> 01:17:02.600 the same idea is that you know, when Lufi does the gome Gong pistol, 1004 01:17:03.000 --> 01:17:05.840 like that's a big thing at least early on, like that's his big 1005 01:17:05.920 --> 01:17:10.239 move, and you know, like he's going for like this, this is 1006 01:17:10.279 --> 01:17:14.600 his finisher right now, and he's going to knock out the opponent. And 1007 01:17:14.680 --> 01:17:18.479 then in like that gives you context of in a future fight if he does 1008 01:17:18.560 --> 01:17:24.039 the gome Gong pistol and it doesn't work or it doesn't knock out the opponent, 1009 01:17:24.079 --> 01:17:27.439 you're like, Okay, now we have moved up a step in the 1010 01:17:27.479 --> 01:17:31.840 battle where this opponent is stronger, so he needs a different move, so 1011 01:17:31.880 --> 01:17:36.560 he'll do something else, He'll he'll develop a new technique, and like the 1012 01:17:36.640 --> 01:17:45.279 same thing pretty much happens in all this combat anime is that there there's like 1013 01:17:45.359 --> 01:17:47.439 these level of moments, and I think that's part of the reason you have 1014 01:17:47.520 --> 01:17:50.960 to name the moves, is that the audience has to recognized A that the 1015 01:17:51.039 --> 01:17:58.600 move is special, that it's worth naming beyond, just like punching real hard, 1016 01:17:59.000 --> 01:18:03.800 and b like when the signature and move of the past doesn't work anymore, 1017 01:18:04.479 --> 01:18:10.159 then now you know it's time for the training montage or just like an 1018 01:18:10.159 --> 01:18:15.119 in fight level up moment where he comes up with a new technique. M 1019 01:18:15.880 --> 01:18:21.239 Yeah, that makes sense. I don't know it's because I didn't grow up 1020 01:18:21.239 --> 01:18:24.479 doing it, or because it's not a big fan of fight scenes. It 1021 01:18:25.920 --> 01:18:30.439 everything you say makes perfectly logical sense if you start from the first principle, 1022 01:18:30.720 --> 01:18:32.479 which is what I just can't kind of afford with. But you know, 1023 01:18:32.560 --> 01:18:36.760 well you said, but I think let me just say, I think that's 1024 01:18:36.760 --> 01:18:42.000 one of the things about this podcast I want to really acknowledge, is it's 1025 01:18:42.039 --> 01:18:45.159 okay if not every piece of media is for everyone. And and there's a 1026 01:18:45.199 --> 01:18:48.199 lot of anime that surprised me, and you know, I want to I 1027 01:18:48.239 --> 01:18:50.840 think one piece raised some great questions that I'm really looking forward to talking to 1028 01:18:50.840 --> 01:18:53.840 you about. And I think that we can do that even with stuff that 1029 01:18:54.279 --> 01:18:59.479 isn't her on Personal Taste of Entertainment, which I don't know if you like 1030 01:18:59.520 --> 01:19:02.960 you said it intentionally, but I'm pretty sure you just said that you didn't 1031 01:19:03.000 --> 01:19:10.520 grow up doing this rather than like watching, and that that is like a 1032 01:19:10.600 --> 01:19:13.960 key to me, is that I grew up like I said, with dragon 1033 01:19:14.000 --> 01:19:17.960 Ball, and if you are a kid of a certain era, or maybe 1034 01:19:17.960 --> 01:19:21.680 even like an adult of a certain era, if you didn't like in the 1035 01:19:21.680 --> 01:19:26.800 playground, just like go to your friend and go cal me, ha me, 1036 01:19:27.920 --> 01:19:30.720 like throw your energy ball at you know, your fake energy ball at 1037 01:19:30.720 --> 01:19:35.399 them. Like that's that we all did. Thatskid, And that's what I 1038 01:19:35.399 --> 01:19:39.479 think too, is like we talked about the audience, is that this is 1039 01:19:39.560 --> 01:19:45.239 shownand jump because it's like young boy jump and like that thing of playing like 1040 01:19:45.279 --> 01:19:48.800 I don't know, like for I think wrestling is the closer analogy because like 1041 01:19:48.880 --> 01:19:58.359 super superhero like DC and Marvel superheroes don't do anything right. I don't think 1042 01:19:58.359 --> 01:20:03.079 they often have taken sure moves, but the often have like lines like yeah, 1043 01:20:03.159 --> 01:20:10.399 like you know, Ben Grimm, you know in Fantastic four it's clobber 1044 01:20:10.439 --> 01:20:14.359 in time there you okay? And yeah, I think kids definitely on the 1045 01:20:14.359 --> 01:20:17.079 playground definitely ran around saying those things. I was in a corner reading a 1046 01:20:17.079 --> 01:20:20.800 book because you know, I was autistic as hell. So yeah, maybe 1047 01:20:20.800 --> 01:20:25.680 it's just like I didn't do those things growing up, So that's what. 1048 01:20:25.880 --> 01:20:29.039 Yeah, Like it's clamber and time is a good one, like Hulk smash. 1049 01:20:29.479 --> 01:20:31.600 Yeah it was another good one, right, So that I mean, 1050 01:20:32.199 --> 01:20:36.439 I think it's the calling out of the move like is kind of a melding 1051 01:20:36.520 --> 01:20:42.640 of that, like the catchphrase and the wrestling signature moves, right, I 1052 01:20:42.640 --> 01:20:46.840 mean, it's surely the point you made about how easily you can show that 1053 01:20:47.039 --> 01:20:51.840 this enemy is much worse than the others by having the signature move not do 1054 01:20:53.159 --> 01:20:57.600 expected to do. I mean I immediately thought of a similar moment in Marvel, 1055 01:20:58.079 --> 01:21:02.920 which is when or throws his hammer hammer and Hella catches it and crushes 1056 01:21:02.960 --> 01:21:09.520 it, because we have seen that hammer destroy every enemy, you know, 1057 01:21:10.079 --> 01:21:13.239 along the way, and Thorne doesn't have a single catchphrase, but he almost 1058 01:21:13.239 --> 01:21:16.600 always says something ridiculous while he throws his hammer, and it always works. 1059 01:21:17.199 --> 01:21:20.239 And it's because it always worked that. Yeah, when we saw her crush 1060 01:21:20.239 --> 01:21:24.920 it, we knew everything that that scene meant, you know, that had 1061 01:21:24.960 --> 01:21:27.640 been built up by these years and years of seeing him do this thing with 1062 01:21:27.680 --> 01:21:30.760 a hammer. So yeah, no, I totally get it. It's just 1063 01:21:30.800 --> 01:21:33.800 the goofy line itself. But that's the thing. There's more that we'll get 1064 01:21:33.840 --> 01:21:38.600 in as we talk about one piece itself, because I think I just there 1065 01:21:38.600 --> 01:21:45.159 are elements so that that character represents a genre of the like super exuberant, 1066 01:21:45.600 --> 01:21:48.640 super hopeful. I'm living in a bit of a fantasy world, but I'm 1067 01:21:48.680 --> 01:21:53.800 just gonna drag everybody else into it instead of acknowledging the reality of the world 1068 01:21:53.880 --> 01:21:58.039 everyone else lives in. And I mean that like metaphorically, not in terms 1069 01:21:58.079 --> 01:22:00.920 of, like, you know, an actual different world. That's never been 1070 01:22:00.920 --> 01:22:10.199 my favorite kind of character. And that's fine, that's totally okay. I'm 1071 01:22:10.279 --> 01:22:16.479 laughing because the thing that is currently, like right now March twenty twenty four, 1072 01:22:17.199 --> 01:22:26.119 what the character Lufy is doing, I believe is like literally rewriting reality. 1073 01:22:26.479 --> 01:22:30.439 Like that's that's that's where that property has finally reached, like in terms 1074 01:22:30.479 --> 01:22:33.319 of power level. So it's funny that you said it that way. Yeah, 1075 01:22:33.359 --> 01:22:36.760 the metaphorical become literal. I like it. Yeah, But it's also 1076 01:22:36.960 --> 01:22:46.079 like if you can believe it, like this is what the writer was looking 1077 01:22:46.119 --> 01:22:50.800 at all along, because I agree what you said about the character, like 1078 01:22:51.000 --> 01:22:58.960 he is very much an anime trope of a super optimistic protagonist character. But 1079 01:22:59.119 --> 01:23:03.399 I think what has all is made One Piece special is is that optimism is 1080 01:23:03.439 --> 01:23:10.640 like far beyond any other similar characters, any other similar protagonist. And if 1081 01:23:10.800 --> 01:23:14.399 if we can believe that he meant this all along, that he can literally 1082 01:23:15.479 --> 01:23:21.800 rewrite reality because of his sheer sunny disposition, like it all tracks, it 1083 01:23:21.840 --> 01:23:27.199 all makes sense. It's goofy as all heck, But we live in an 1084 01:23:27.239 --> 01:23:31.560 era where, like you know, Marvel characters are changing history literally and like 1085 01:23:31.680 --> 01:23:41.159 rewriting things to their own whims. So it's I agree it is. It 1086 01:23:41.279 --> 01:23:47.640 is like a very different storytelling. Yeah, but to me, the fact 1087 01:23:47.760 --> 01:23:54.680 that it appears like that he actually had a plan is kind of amazing in 1088 01:23:55.359 --> 01:24:00.119 the era of like jj Abrams is my favorite punching back in terms of like 1089 01:24:01.039 --> 01:24:06.119 didn't have a plan, like created an amazing mystery box and then like didn't 1090 01:24:06.119 --> 01:24:10.159 know what to do when he opened it, Like it it seems like oda 1091 01:24:10.239 --> 01:24:15.000 sense in the beginning of One Piece, like had a certain vision, or 1092 01:24:15.000 --> 01:24:18.359 at least like had started to like coalesce into a vision early on enough that 1093 01:24:19.359 --> 01:24:23.479 it's all fitting together, and that's kind of like one of the most mind 1094 01:24:23.479 --> 01:24:29.960 blowing things about a property that's gone on. This law. Yeah, no, 1095 01:24:30.159 --> 01:24:32.319 I think it sounds fascinating, and I'm you know, in the same 1096 01:24:32.399 --> 01:24:36.840 kind of way that I think understanding that the Vietnam War helps you to better 1097 01:24:36.920 --> 01:24:42.279 understand mash I'm sure that better understanding the world of anime and the world of 1098 01:24:42.319 --> 01:24:46.279 manga and the world in which one piece sits, not like the world that's 1099 01:24:46.279 --> 01:24:49.239 created in the show, but just like culturally the world of creation helps you 1100 01:24:49.279 --> 01:24:53.640 understand that a lot more. So we'll make that episode when that comes up 1101 01:24:53.680 --> 01:24:56.279 soon, whereas a lot of other good episodes we're doing soon. To our 1102 01:24:56.319 --> 01:24:59.159 members, as always, thank you all so much. You have been fantastic. 1103 01:25:00.079 --> 01:25:08.399 We have spoken and wrote