Welcome to Open Minds Radio with Alejandro Roja. Open Minds Radio is a UFO
news authority presenting evidence on the latest news regarding the UFO phenomena. Here's your
host, Alejandro Roja, some trippy music man. Hello Alejandro, and you're
listening to Open Minds Radio and I am once again honored to be in your
presence and to share some wonderful UFO knowledge, debate and talk with you.
We have a perfect show for although hopefully you're not just like politics out and
tired of all of this stuff. But we're talking politics tonight. We're talking
most UFO and White House stuff and how politics is affected by UFOs and that
sort of thing. So we're not going to be talking about Newton Mint and
who whoever slept with or any of that kind of stuff that we're not gonna
ask Jason if he's in an open relationship or anything like that. We're gonna
just talk UFOs. So we have Grant Cameron on who runs a site presidentialufo
dot com. He's the best researcher when it comes to the White House and
UFOs. He's one of the best UFO researchers out there period. He's very
meticulous in getting data. And of course we've talked about him lately because he
did a Freedom of Information request Act requests Freedom of Information Act request regarding the
recent White House response to Steven Bassett's petition asking for the White House to fess
up that they have knowledge of communicating with extraterrestrials. And of course lately we
find out Obama was on Mars, though we didn't get into that, but
we just stuck to kind of that White House petition response and he got some
details about, you know, what the correspondence was behind the creation of that
response. So we'll talk to him about how he got that information, what
it was like, what he thinks of it, and then we'll talk about
these petitions and everything overall and his perspective on you know, is this the
right way to go to ask the White House to do anything? Or are
there more effective ways we can approach this subject? And I know he's got
a lot of great opinions on this, So this is going to be wonderful.
It's all White House, it's all politics tonight. It's gonna be a
lot of fun. You're gonna love it. Trust me. I do want
to mention that well, Grant Candraon's going to be at the International UFO Congress
actually, which is great, and if you want to meet Grant, he's
not speaking, so he's gonna have a lot of time to just hang out
with people and you can buy them some drinks or have some dinner with them
or whatever. So come on down to the UFO Congress this February twenty second
to the twenty sixth at Fort mcdell Resort. And the deadline for the cheap
seats for the getting everything at a discount ends January twenty seventh. So if
you have been procrastinating and you want it to come and you want to get
in on the cheaper fee registration fee, then you're gonna want to register by
January twenty seventh. That is like four days away, so you better get
on the ball just right now. Go to Ufocongress dot com and register.
I know, I think it was last week I gave you guys a little
bit of time to register on air. Here. I'm not going to give
you time. Just go ahead and do it while we're talking this time.
So go ahead to go to ufocongress dot com and register. It'll take you
no time, he'll be set and then you'll be listening to the show thinking,
no way, I'm going to meet these dudes. Awesome, because I
know a good amount of you probably talk that way. Maybe Winner two.
That's how Jason talks when he's not on the radio. Speaking of Jason McClellan,
he is a guy who follows UFO news on a regular basis. And
I'm talking at least a few times a day. He'll he'll check his emails
and look on the Internet and he'll boast several stories throughout the day, which
is really cool. So he's following UFO news on a regular basis. He
posted that open Minds dot tv and then he comes here weekly to tell us
about the UFO news. Let's go over to Jason McClellan and let's talk some
UFO news. Hello, Jason, let me make sure I have my radio
voice on, Alejandro. Yeah, don't do your regular yo. No,
I've got my radio voice radio man. That's right. We'll greetings everyone,
This is your Open Minds News Brief for Monday, January twenty third, twenty
twelve. Start up with the UFO Sighting. Six UFOs were recently photographed in
neighboring counties in England. The first of the two sightings occurred on the afternoon
of January seventh in Kent. The witness Ernesta greeks Us snapped a photo of
two UFOs. He didn't notice the mysterious objects at the time as he was
simply taking photos on his iPhone of a cherry picker outside his home. Greegsis
only noticed the UFOs later when he was reviewing the photos. He described the
UFOs in his photo to the Sun as the following, there are two white
discs. I can't explain. I'm nowhere near a flight path. One is
slightly fainter, as if it is further away or going at a different speed.
The second sighting occurred on the morning of January thirteenth in Essex, as
witness Josh Cummings was driving to work. He explained to The Sun quote,
I nearly crashed. I stopped to take this picture with my mobile like the
UFOs were surfing the clouds. They were there for fifteen seconds, then vanished.
As The Daily Mail reports, the sightings were made just thirty miles apart
in an area now dub the country's UFO hotspot. All six of these UFOs
look strikingly similar, at least to me they do. Could the close proximity
of the sightings, the quote remarkably similar UFOs as the Sun describes them,
and the matching ages of the two witnesses all be a coincident. Both the
witnesses happen to be twenty one years old. Of course, they could be
a coincidence. It's possible that the same UFOs were seen by the two witnesses
in different locations, and this happens frequently, but unfortunately a few sightings are
photographed by multiple witnesses. We wish we had more of that. The nearly
id identical UFOs bear a striking resemblance, in my opinion, to reflections of
light bulbs hanging in light fixtures. Both photos were reportedly shot through windows,
which increases the probability that the strange objects were simply light reflections, and some
suggests the possibility that the two witnesses may know each other, hinting at a
possible hoax, and I was speculating at this myself. Alejandro and I came
across the website of one of the witnesses, so one witness was identified by
the Sun as a car salesman, and I noticed the other witness on his
website listed that he owned a car sales business. So that paired with the
matching ages, matching with the close proximity to the two, I thought there
might be something fishy going on. However, I must state that the witness,
Greek Sask, contacted me and wanted to share his side of the story.
So he wanted me to know that absolutely he did not hoax the photo,
and he said quote, I personally can't say whether it was a UFO
or not because I was too busy focusing on my camera. I am a
UFO fanatic, and I wish I did see it with my own eyes,
but at this point it remains a mystery. Now, if I read correctly,
this was they were both shooting through glass. Correct, Yeah, see,
because this really looks like to me the reflection of a lamp right on
the window, and which happens quite a bit, and people typically say they
didn't notice the UFO when they took the picture, and the reason is,
you know, we ignore reflections when we're looking through windows. It's something that's
every day and our brains just kind of don't register it, and so we
see it afterwards. That happens a lot when people are taking pictures. You
ignore things that are mundane and every day, and then sometimes those things look
weird in your pictures and that's why people say that. So that's what it
looks like to me. Yeah, in one of the witnesses, you know,
he shot through glass, but he said it was in his car,
you know, so it doesn't wouldn't necessarily fit with like a lamp in the
house, but when you look at it, it could also be a street
lamp, you know, a couple of street lamps. And sometimes glass distorts
an image or reflection and makes it look like there are multiple objects when there
could have just been two rather than four in that particular picture. But we
don't know, but it does look like the reflection of a light or a
lamp in the window. Yeah, that's the hard part. But they were
interesting pictures. Yeah, they are interesting, and and you know, I
think, not to speak for you, the reason you want to look for
that sort of thing is because what I am striving to find is photos that
are incontrovertible evidence. Because you want to take this to scientists, into people
who are skeptical or mainstream people and say, look, you can't deny this
is something weird. And so you know, unfortunately, because these look kind
of similar to likes, these wouldn't be those kind of pictures. And I
just want to ex playing because some people get mad, why are you talking
down these pictures? And it's not that we're doing that, it's just we're
looking for really good stuff so we can blow this baby wide open. Yeah,
that's that's true. I agree with you, and you know, I
think it's valuable for everybody. You know, when we can identify what a
particular particular photo is, if it's not something that's unidentifiable, you know,
if we can point out what things are in photos that we routinely see in
a lot of photos that are submitted to us, you know, we can
help people understand what they're looking at in particular photos. We can make people
aware so they know that when they have a photo of that, that's not
something that's mysterious. It's not what we're looking for. We saw weird lights
in the sky recently. They turned out to be mundane things, and we
had special mystery guests with us who our audience will find about some about sometime
in the future. Yeah, that's right. We have really crazy lights and
then they turned out to be nothing special. We had a life changing experience.
My friend changed your life. It did change my life. Eh,
it was life changing for me. Yeah. Lay, well, we'll talk
about that in the future. But that's a nice teaser for everybody. Yeah,
a little teaser, all right. In other news, well, it
was just a couple of weeks ago that our guest from last week, Lee
Spiegel of The Huffington Post reported that the Mutual UFO Network, also known as
moufon, had already noticed an increase in UFO sidings reported in the first week
of January compared to last year, and there was more activity reported by moufon
last week, but not related to UFO sidings. On Tuesday, January seventeenth,
the Greeley Tribune reported that Moufon's international director, Clifford Cliff, will be
stepping down from his post. Cliff, who has occupied the position since March
twenty ten, is resigning because he wants to spend more time with his family
and because he wants to, you know, spend more time being retired.
And good for you, Cliff, That's what I want, is you.
It wouldn't be acceptable for me to do it. But he's of the comfortable
age where I think it's acceptable society will allow him to. Yeah, he's
joy retirement. He's getting tired. Yeah, you know, he wants to
chill out. And you know, I don't think people understand these move On
board members put in a lot of hours. Cliff is one of those guys,
and people think, oh, you know, Moufon has all these resources.
They don't. People are working and everything, people are busy. You
only have a few people out there who are really giving it. They're all
and Cliff has been one of those people for many, many years. Right.
And David McDonald, a Mofon board member who has served the organization as
Assistant Director of Investigations, Star Team administrator and State director of Kentucky, will
be replacing Cliff as international director on February first. We will reportedly remain active
with the organization as he oversees the archives, but the organization's structure change is
that the only major activity recently reported by moufon on headquarters, currently based in
Greeley, Colorado, will be relocating to Ohio. Rogermarshaf Examiner dot Com explains
quote McDonald will move MUFON International Headquarters to Cincinnati, Ohio, where he operates
Global Airline Education Center and Campus. Being centrally located, the International Headquarters will
be easily accessible to many more members. Cincinnati is within a six hour drive
for sixty percent of the population of the United States end quote. Cliff is
asking everyone to have patients during this transition period. He recently stated, quote
keep your eyes on the sky, and let's all welcome mister David McDonald as
Moffon's new international director end quote. And I know we've mentioned repeatedly that Clifford
Cliff will be speaking at the International UFO Congress, and just so you all
know, nothing has changed with that. He's stepping down has not affected that.
And we are excited that Clifford Cliff will still be speaking at the International
UFO Congress. And I believe he speaks on Wednesday, the twenty second of
February. So come on out and see Cliff. Yeah, can meet Cliff.
He's a really really if you haven't seen him talk or you haven't met
him, he's a really nice guy and he doesn't shy away from any questions.
He's just one of the and he's so funny He's a lot of fun
to watch talk. He's really funny. It's an odd description, but you
know, Cliff is one of the few people that I would describe as real.
He's a real person. He's very down to earth, he's very accessible,
and you're right, he is so funny. I don't think I've ever
had a moment with Cliff where he doesn't make me laugh. Yep, he's
a joker. I like him. Yep, he's a good dude. All
right. Here's something kind of interesting. Well, it might sound like the
plot of an awesome Hollywood movie. Russia wants to put a base on the
Moon in real life. According to Russian Space Agency chief Space Agency Chief Vladimir
Popupkin, a growing body of research supports the idea that humans can live for
extended periods of time on or around the Moon, and, as space dot
Com reports, Papupkin claims, Russia is currently in talks with NASA and the
European Space Agency about constructing manned research colonies in orbit around the Moon and even
on the Moon. But here's where it's weird. Apparently, NASA denies these
claims, so NASA spokesman JD. Harrington told Space dot Com quote. We
believe Papupkin may be referring to the work of the International Space Exploration Coordination Group
the ISECG and its Global Exploration roadmap. Now, we talked probably months ago
about this global Exploration roadmap of THEIRS and what it is is they developed a
long range roadmap for space exploration that included a possible mand mission to an asteroid
or even the Moon, but apparently no mention of a moon base. So
we have this Russian scientist making these claims, and it certainly grabbed a lot
of headlines. But NASA's saying I think he misinterpreted. What are they know?
I mean just because and these days some of the news that's come out
is Russia is I don't know, if they're kind of throwing their weight around
a little more because they have some weight to throw around since they're shuttling us
around. But how they're they're thinking of separating their programs from NASA and doing
their own stuff. So if that's the case, we don't know if they're
planning that or not. I think, right well, we don't. But
but their response is to his claims saying that Russia is working with NASA and
the European Agency of building these bases. Maybe it was supposed to be a
secret. I think it was. I know, it seems kind of fishy
that, you know, they'd come out and say this and then NASA goes,
well, that's not true, Like dude, that was a secret.
Oh. So, you know, it's been it's been a weird couple of
months with Russia in the base news. You know, they've had some trouble
with their rockets and satellites crashing to Earth, flaming the United States for causing
the satellites to crash to Earth, and now saying that they're working with NASA
to put a base on the Moon. So it's weird, kind of interesting.
Let's talk about another sighting here. A glowing UFO in Devon, England,
was photographed by witness Gary McDermott on the night of Sunday, January twenty
second. McDermott reportedly stopped his car to take a picture of a low flying
helicopter and that's when he noticed the UFO. According to the Telegraph, the
UFO was a red disc shaped object with bright flashing lights. Mcgermott explained quote,
it must have been a UFO and I can't believe I'm saying that because
I don't believe in them usually and I'm always skeptical. But it was definitely
not a normal aircraft. It was red the shape they say UFO aircraft is,
and has two bright lights coming out of it. End quote. The
unknown object disappeared almost immediately after McDermott saw it, and the object in McDermott's
photo, to me, at least it appears more cigar or blimp shaped than
disc shaped, but it's hard to tell from the photograph, and while the
object looks very much like a dirigible to me, the witness's description of how
the UFO vanished before his eyes is certainly not consistent with the behavior of a
dirigible. According to the Telegraph, Devin police said they did not receive any
UFO setting reports in the area that night, so the object remains unidentified.
This is a weird picture, I mean, and you know, if since
it's a light on this thing, or on one side, if it was
a disc, maybe that's why that's only one side of it turned out in
the picture, and that's why it looks more cigar shaped, right, So
yeah, that's certainly possible. You know, it's difficult to make out the
shape from that photo. And a big deal is that he saw this thing,
you know. Yeah, by the time he yeah, he saw it,
took the picture, and then before he could tell his buddy, hey,
look, it was gone. Yeah. So it's probably not a flare
off of his camera, right, So yeah, kind of weird. I
guess it could be a super fast blimp show, super fast extra terrestrial blimp.
That's awesome. It could be yeah, maybe from the future. Who
knows. Well, that one's pretty exciting. Yeah, cool bag. I
like it. Like I said, when I initially saw it, you know,
I thought, oh, that's possibly a blimp. But yeah, the
description again completely changes that. So and we talked about this before. I
mean, you know, with sightings, witness testimony is you know, a
large part of what we have to go on, you know, and you
can either believe them or not, but you know, it's there. So
that's that's one of the puzzle pieces we have to work with. Yep.
Well, Alejandro, that is all the news I have for today. Have
many more stories on Openminds dot tv and you can always go there to check
out the many stories we have there. And I am Jason McClellan, your
Open Lines News correspondent, and you've just been briefed back to you, Alejandro.
Thank you, Jason. So some great news items there. Go check
out McDermott's picture and also some other news that Open Minds has been making this
week is around a Chilean general who is going to speak at the UFO Congress
that we are just talking about. This is exciting because this is a guy
who is in charge of an official government UFO investigative organization. They essentially say
their mission is to pursue solid UFO cases with adequate scientific data, but only
if there is an indication that the safety of the aircraft might have been at
risk. They call themselves SEPHA ce FAA, which stands for the Committee for
the Study of Aerial Anomalous Phenomena. And they don't fit the acronym because it's
of course it's SPAN. That's the English version of it, so SEFA And
if you go to their website then you can see the cases that they have
investigated, and they have investigated quite a few that they think are really interesting.
So this is really cool. He's a retired general. He did a
lot of cool stuff. He was the Chilean Air attache in London and the
commander of the Chilean Air Force's Southern Region for a period of time. And
then he founded this UFO group in nineteen ninety eight, which is an official
branch of their version of the FAA. So this is a real organization interviewing
UFOs, he wrote, General Bermudez is his name. He wrote a part
of the UFOs General's Pilots and Government Officials Go on the Record, a book
by Leslie Keane. Leslie Kane, excuse me, So this is really cool.
A general coming to talk about UFOs and an official UFO investigative project.
So this is like, you know, a big deal. So that's why
it is getting some press out there, which is really great. And again,
if you want to catch this and catch the UFO Congress, be sure
to register in the next couple of days so you can catch the discounted early
bird prices. Speaking of government, what about the United States government? Those
bunch of jokers, they're dropping the ball. And we have the guy who
is an expert on just and the details of how the US government is dropping
the ball on the UFO matter, and that is Grant Cameron of PRESIDENTIALUFO dot
Com. Let's get him on the line. I am very happy to speak
once again to my good buddy Grant camera man who runs Presidential UFO dot Com,
the authority on Presidents and UFO, is the perfect person to talk to
about the recent White House UFO petitions. Welcome, well, Eli Chandra,
thanks for having me on. It's good to talk to you again. Yep,
it's always fun. So yeah, I know we'll get into it and
we always have a lot to talk about. And really these petitions. So
it started off with Bassett, Stephen Bassett's petition more around the extraterrestrial aspect,
asking for proof of extraterrest grills. Now, my first question for you.
You know a lot of people criticize Bassett for centering it around asking for evidence
of communication with extraterrestrials and that that's more of a long shot. However,
in his defense, do you really think that the White House would have taken
any UFO centric petition seriously, no matter what the verbage. Yeah, I
agree in defense Steve Bassett, I was been friends with Steve Bassett for a
number of years and when I first began the President's site, he had give
me some advice and and was one of my probably my biggest supporter in the
UFO community, pushing and he's quite a group of people that he pushed in
and moved my site up the chain. In his defense, I think,
Steve, there's there's a thing in the in the UFOL community now this aba
anything but alien. You know, we're changing the verbiage and and uh,
it's sort of like we're embarrassed for the Rodney dangerfield of the scientific world,
and we we we don't want to really say ET. I'll give Steve credit.
Steve, there's no playing around. Steve just is what he thinks is
true. He doesn't play any games. And basically he believes the Roswell story.
He believes basically, they've got the evidence, they got the bodies,
they got the they've been in communication, they know and let's just get it
out there. Let's quit playing around. Uh. And he's a lobbyist,
he's he's going to push. So his effort using the ET thing was just
what he basically thought. He believes the the the government knows what's going on,
that the White House can change it. And that's where the House petition
was filed and and he did get a lot of flak from people who you
know, really are sensitive about their reputations and really don't want to sort of
offend anybody, so that I think that's where the backlash came. In terms
of of the burbage. I don't really think it's really going to make any
difference, and I I filed my foias and expecting exactly what I got.
I was not surprised have any of the replies that I got. And I've
been through this a lot of times in articles I've written where I basically say
that if you understand how government works, they're never going to deal with this
issue, right, whether it's Congress or whether it's the White House. And
there's even a question as to whether the White House is really in the loop,
because, as you know, Stephen, President Clinton on a number of
occasions seemed to indicate that he tried to get to the answer and was unable
to get the answer. So whether the White House would even know is not
gonna It's not going anywhere. So when I filed my FOAs, I sort
of assume that the the the office that was handed in was the Office of
Science and Technology Policy, which is the Office of the Science Director to the
President, and they've been involved a number of times, back right back to
the Jimmy Carter days the Office of Science and Technology Policy, And I just
want to clarify real quick. I mean, we did talk about this in
previous shows, but you filed a Freedom of Information Act request to the White
House Scientific Policy Department. You can clarify the department name, I forget,
but you were asking for the drafts of the response to Batsett's extraterrestrial petition,
and you got something. And we'll talk more details about that, but go
ahead. Yeah, well then let's just take that for an example. But
my assumption was that the Office of the Science Advisor from my experience, and
I know back when I filed in two thousand, I filed with the Clinton
White House, the Office of Science and Technology Policy, and I got this
sort of a gold mine. I got thousand pages of material dealing with the
Rockefeller Initiative where Lawrence Rockefeller's billionaire philanthropist, decides he's going to President Clinton and
he's going to get President Clinton to disclose UFOs. So he makes his approach
to the White House, gets caught off by this same office that's now dealing
with his petition. The Office of Science and Technology Policy, and they basically
deal with Rockefeller and this for three years. This is correspondence and a bunch
of people interacting in briefings and stuff like this, and they're dealing with the
UFO subject to try to keep Lawrence Rockefeller from going to the president. So
they're dealing with that level. So I knew then that because at that point
Gibbons, who was running the office for Clinton, his science advisor, really
didn't know anything about UFOs, really didn't want anything to do with it.
And I assume that this is going to be the same thing that happened here.
So I actually filed seven Free Information Act requests once Bastt filed the petition.
Now, when Stephen first filed the petition, I thought it was the
kind of a goofy idea, they're not going to do anything. And actually,
since the petition has come out, I've sort of actually started to believe
that that disclosure will come. When it's time for disclosure to come. That
you have to build it like a cake. You have to put the layers,
and this is one of the layers that Steve put in there that at
first I really didn't sort of agree. But now I say that this is
one of the key things that has been done in euthology, is this petition,
and what it is done is when Steve filed the petition, he got
the appropriate number of signatures, which is five thousand, and he got the
White House to respond. And some people have come out and said it wasn't
an official response. It was just this Phil Larsen guy giving his opinion on
UFOs, which is our e keys, which is absolutely not true. If
it's on the White House website, it is the president and people see how
the president works. There's nothing that happens around the president that isn't completely planned
down to the last moment. So anything else on the pre on the White
House website has got approval. It is not nobody gets to have their own
little personal opinion on there. The President speaks for everybody. The buck stops
at the President's office, right, and he's responsible everything. So this actually
when Steve fel the petition, I say, this is an official response on
behalf of the US government on the subject of ets right well at the White
from the White House, right, this is an official response. And the
emails that you received through your FOYA proved that. I mean he didn't.
He wrote it, sure, but he passed it on to the rest of
the group and got approval from his supervisors. I mean, he had to
get the stamp of approval before this went out because, as it says,
it is an official response. Yes, and that's what I haven't really firmly
established yet. You can tell there's there's these two other people. The guy
that wrote it was Phil Larson, and Phil Larson is nothing but a pr
guy. Yeah, he really doesn't know anything about anything. I mean,
if you look go to the the White House website with the Office Science and
Technology Policy, you'll see that every day he writes the story about something else
and he's just putting the best spin on what the the the offices the Science
Advisor is doing in terms of uh, you know, new technology and green
energy and Mars and and he just writes the articles. He really didn't have
anything And that's why I went after the drafts. I I wanted to find
out who gave approval, which I still don't know what the approval was.
It was. We know that there was this uh the website that was there
was we the people, and there was a girl that ran the website,
and we know that Larsen went to these meetings and that they had they were
given petitions and the Office of Science Technology Policy was given three petitions, not
just the EP petition. They were given three petitions to answer, and we
know it came at that level. Now as to who UH decided, you
know, what was going to happen and what was going to be put down
that I wasn't able to establish. And I I had talked about this before.
There's this B five exemption, which is sort of a situation where if
you're giving advice to another department or to the President or to somebody that is
now exempt on their Free Information Act for twelve years. So when I asked
for the drafts, basically all the drafts were withheld. And what I was
trying to do because I got lucky once before I filed when I was in
Los Angeles, I had filed with the Reagan Library for this speech on that
Ronald Reagan had given it a nineteen eighty seven United Nations where we talked about
the alien invasion, and I had asked for all the speech drafts and at
that time they weren't using this B five exemption of pulling all this stuff out.
And what I found there was I was trying to find out how did
the alien invasion thing get into the speech? Who put it in, what
did people respond? And you could see all the interactions as all these drafts
of the speech going to the CIA and the military and also of stuff,
and you could see what people were reacting to it. And you could also
see that at one point they had pulled the alien invasion remark out of the
speech and Ronald Reagan, in his own handwriting it, asked to have it
put back any right. So that's what I was doing here, is I
was trying to get the speech drafts to see what it had gone to the
CI, had gone to NASA, did someone in CIA make a comment,
did the President make a comment? Did the President see it? And all
the speech drafts were withheld because although this was a short process, I mean,
they only had a couple of dice to come up with something and tobmit
it and get it out. It looks like from the drafts that you had,
Yeah, so it appears that he probably and because of the verbiage,
which is not very deep, it's very you know, he could it's like
someone could google and find the information that he found. It seems like he
probably wrote it himself. But like you said, you don't know what other
agencies might have had to put their stamp on it before it got approved.
What you're saying, yeah, well, we do know it went to NASA,
went to these two guys in NASA and public relations ahead of public relations
for NASA, and this other guy, and they they basically, by the
looks of it, didn't make any comments. Now I'm filowing a Free Information
Act request with NASA, hopefully on their end, to get their documentation that
maybe they'll release something that the Science Advisor's office didn't release. But we know
it went there. We know it didn't go to the CIA, which was
the key thing. I filed one Free Information Act request asking for Ronald Pandolphie
because if you follow the Ronald Pandolphie story, and he's supposed to be the
guy who runs the Weird Desk, or he did run the weird Desk with
the UFO and the paranormal and the phenomenology files as they call him, that
he was sort of the guy that during the Clinton administration when the Office the
Science Advisor knew that Rockefeller was coming to the White House. The first thing
he did, because Gibbons didn't know what was going on with UFOs, is
the asked for UFO briefing, and he went to the CIA for the UFO
briefing and the job was given to Ronald Pandolphie, and Ronald Pandolphie stucked the
job off on because he couldn't give an official briefing for the CIA because the
CIA isn't involved with UFO. So what he did was he gave it to
Bruce mccabee to write a briefing for the Science Advisor, and then it becomes
just some civilian off the street, which really doesn't mean anything. It's nothing
official to provide this information for Gibbons. So what I'd done in this one
is I asked for an FOI about all the contacts between Larson, who had
written the draft, and Ronald Pandolphie. And what I was trying to find
out was Ronald Pandolphie involved in this thing because he was involved in ninety three.
He went in talked to Gibbons and told Gibbons, don't deal with UFOs,
stay away from it. And I wanted to see and this came back
and said no, there was no contact. So it appears that the only
all these Larson drafted it. It went to NASA, they just said yeah,
okay, looks good to us. It went back and they they threw
this thing out and it was the end of the story. The other thing
I established and I tried to because the petition was signed by twelve thousand plus
people, it was a it was addressed to President Obama. So of course
one of the fis I had was I want all the correspondents inside the Office
the Science Advisor, which would indicate or show that that President Obama or anybody
inside the Executive Office acting on his behalf, actually saw the petition. And
they came back no documentation, which as far as I can tell right now,
indicates that the President nor anybody in the executive in his office ever saw
the petition, which is pretty pretty damaging for their for their side and that.
But that's what I expected that would come back, is it was just
something that you have all these issues and you you throw them down to different
departments, and if it really gets serious and something happens, we'll I'll bring
it to the President and say, well, you know we have to deal
with this issue. But there's so many things going on, and I think
people sort of forget that all the time that the president has got, you
know, fifty officials that report to him daily or every second day. Every
one of those officials has got one hundred things, one hundred plates up in
the air, and they're only going to bring to him only what's extremely important
or what he has to that a lot of this stuff is dealt with,
even though it's got the present's name on it, that other people are dealing
on his behalf right. And that's what I think happened here. And I
was able to sort of prove it in an indirect method that the president never
saw the petition even though twelve thousand people signed. And one of the things
that I requested one of the petitions or the FIIs that I filed, Well,
I missed it. It looks like, I think, why did you
change it from five thousand to twenty five thousand. What I was hoping was
that there was going to be some correspondence. It would say these UFO petitions
and these marijuana and all these crazy people, we've got to get rid of
this. We've got to put the numbers up to twenty five thousand to stop
people from filing these stupid petitions. And unfortunately it's at a higher level than
the Office of Science Science Advisor. So basically they didn't have any documentation because
they didn't make that decision to change it from five thousand to twenty five thousand,
which now means it used to be in democracy you could go to your
representative, you go to the president and ask a question and get an answer.
And now you need twenty five thousand people just to get the president or
the president's office to answer a complaint from the from the constituents, is why,
and that's why I wrote the article. When I went through trying to
see like Steve does his thing, Leslie Kane does her thing, I do
my thing. Everybody's doing what they think is going to move the football down
the field and get it to the goal line. And so what I had
done was filed by Foyas And then I looked at what has happened in ethology,
what are the things that have really worked for us, And that's when
I came across the idea that the president is probably not office we should be
dealing with that we should be actually dealing at a congressional or a senatorial level,
because all the major developments, the major things that have happened where we've
almost gotten some disclosure on UFOs have always been promoted by a senator or a
congressman. And that's because they got political cover, which the president doesn't have
well. And that goes back to my original question, which was, you
know, the second one of the second petitions that came out, because I'm
sure there's more and they'll continue to be more. It's a Dolan and Zabel
one and it's very well written. I mean, it talks more about the
credible witnesses and so forth. Let's say this one had been part of the
first, or let's say it would have gotten a number of signatures it needed.
Do you think the White House even would have had much different, much
more to say than what they said to the first one. You know,
I think I think it's it's the old thing is it's a political game.
This is an issue that, especially in any year where you're campaigning for re
election, this is something you do not want to touch, right. That's
what basically what it comes down to is is you can see even in the
article I wrote about the congressman. You'll get congressmen who will say, why
doesn't the president do this? I'm just a congressman. He I mean,
they're just like keep it away from me, like I mean, this is
I'd like to help you. Or you know when when Fox or when Stephen
Greerr went up onto the hill and petitioned and went from offs to office,
they were both told the same thing that we'd like to help you, but
before we before we can help you or get to the White House motivated to
do something, you have to get a huge number of people to give us
political backing. And once you do that, then we'll jump in there and
we'll do something. And it's just an issue that it doesn't matter how I
don't think it matters how you were. This is something the White House is
not going to touch. And they they're doing the same with all the petitions.
If you take a look at all the petitions, it's very bland and
they're just sort of you know, it's fluffy answers that that don't really have
any meat to them. Yeah, it's just sort of like everybody thinks that
they're they're part of democracy and and you're you're you're participating in in in what's
going on, and you get to put your name on things, then everybody
feels involved and stuff like that, and people don't realize it's a political game.
It's it's a game where in this uh in this upcoming election, it's
sixty seven billion dollars to get everybody elected, and you have people who are
paying thirty five eight hundred dollars for a seat to go to a fundraiser.
And basically the UFO community has no money, it has, it has no
political clout, it has, it has nobody. And basically what it comes
down to is that people who are elected, whether it's at the senatorial level
or the president level, you need huge amounts of money to get in.
And the money is it's basically like bribes. It's it's companies that are giving
you money and they expect something in return. And the UFO community has no
money, absolutely no money whatsoever and no political influence. And we we're just
a sort of an annoyance. If we were able to generate a pile of
money or show that we could we could cause some voting problems with them,
then they would deal with it. But as it is right now, it's
just not an issue they really have to deal with. Plus it's an issue
that has this secrecy aspect to it that if the President does know, it's
just something that's classified and it's just something you don't want to go there,
you don't want to open it because it's a classified issue. Well, and
honestly too, this build has a credibility issue. I mean, it's a
it's a grassroots type of thing, you know, it's not We don't have
marketing or PR reps to help out in this situation, and I don't I
think the UFO community hasn't really established that this is incredible. I think we're
getting better and better every day, but that this is a credible issue.
There still isn't credibility. I think we're creeping up on it, but not
quite there. Yeah, And I think we need pressure, which we've never
exerted. As I've always said, the most people when they had this movement
and the name escapes me back in the nineteen nineties when they were protesting outside
the White House, the most they ever had was nineteen people. So I
mean, we just can't generate any sort of pressure. And as I've said
for years, I've said, if you take a lot of all the political
and social movements in the United States, every single one of them that are
ugly issues like gay rights and AIDS and women's right to vote and all these
kind of civil rights issues that the government really didn't want to issue the sames
to issues that UFOs. It's like, get out of here with that stupid
issue. I don't want to deal that. It was mass pressure being exerted
on the government that moved them to the point where they said, like,
there's votes involved here, and then suddenly, oh, everybody's along with it.
They just don't have that kind of that influence on the government. And
it has so many different things. But as I said, at a senatorial
level, a lot of times, it only takes one person to motivate this
thing. And it almost happened. It happened when I was in Kansas City.
I was lecturing Kansas City in August, and when I was there,
all over talking about the UFO sidings and these sightings and this and sightings that,
and all the people could talk about was all these UFO sidings in Kansas
City. And then about a month ago, they had this cattle mutilation in
Kansas City right outside the airport, which is because of the nine to eleven
thing, there's a lot of security around that airport, and this happened under
the eyes of this security. This mutilation took place, and they were going
to now I don't know if they have they were getting a petition at the
meeting, the last meeting they had, and they were going to try to
get a congressman or a senator. And that's what I say has to be
done, is that if you get something that's happening in a city where like
this kind of things happens, that you go to the congressman, you say
we want action, we want you to do it. And the congressman is
able with Stephen Schiff or any of these people where they go and they say,
I really don't believe this is this is all nonsense, but these people
want an answer, and I want an answer to this thing. And you'll
see if you go back through history that in a lot of cases, only
one person, Laura Johnstone was when Bush was elected. Before he was elected,
he promised to disclose UFOs. She went to Stephen Ger lecture in San
Francisco. She heard Stephen Ger talking about this, you know, disclosure and
the fact that Bush had made this promise and stuff. She was a political
act of but she had been arrested outside the White House. She was just
itching for trouble and she thought this is great. So she went on a
hunger strike. So what did she do? She went and had her hunger
strike on the steps of Barbara Boxer office. Barbara Boxer was writing her letters
and was contacting the Vice President's office. And that was one person's activity.
And that's what I think we need is to sort of use these type of
things where we don't need twelve thousand signatures, we don't need everybody online.
We just have to be able to pressure a senator and then once we've got
him making an official request, because they can make a official request, they
don't need twelve thousand senators to get the president answer to something. They can
get an official answer by writing a letter. And they've got a lot of
power and a lot of them will will do it if you've given that political
cover. And there's numerous examples back through history where we almost got the apple
cart upset because one Congressman Shift as a prime example, because he was in
New Mexico, he was under a lot of pressure for the Roswell crash,
and he put the request in and he was sent like you and I and
everybody else that's ever made a request to the Air Force of the military,
he was sent to the National Archives. Who went to the National Archives and
they sort of laughed at him, and he suddenly realized he was being had
and he got upset, and he got upset. He said, there's something
going on here, and he started to push it and he used his power
to get this investigation done by the GOA. So that was one guy who
had a couple of requests from constituents went and got upset and actually got the
Air Force to go and spend millions of dollars to rein us to get the
roswellt thing that happened very little, and you don't need these big things.
So that's what I say to people now, is that if you've got something
happening locally, go to the congressman, go to the center and demand action
and get them to write an official And I've even done in Canada, we
have members of parliament and I actually had a member of parliament here write an
official letter to the government and get responses from the government on Wilbur Smith,
who ran the Canadian government UFO program, and I was pushing him and he
was, you know, doing this kind of stuff for me, and it
even worked in my case. The problem was that Thennis guy became member of
the government, and if he's in the government, then he suddenly it's his
government and he's not going to do anything. And it ended for me.
But it did work for me, and I think it'll work for anybody who
has a local sighting or something happens, especially like a mutilation, where there's
damage and there's you can get action and then keep the pressure on the congressman
and you can work officially through there. And there's a number of examples that
show that this is kind of an effective way of getting something done. Now
to this point, especially with the Obama administration, I mean, do you
have I mean, this is the one as far as presidents go, who
at least passed Presidents Ray and Clinton, especially George Bush, like you just
mentioned, have at least been based even with you. You addressed that you
asked a great question of Dick Cheney. They've been They've at least had to
speak to the situation. Obama seems to have absolutely no interest in this build
whatsoever. He showed no indication of having any interest. Would you agree with
that? Yeah, exactly. He even when he was campaigning, as you
know, he was asked a question about the alien thing. If you discover,
if you've become president, find out that we've been visited by aliens,
would you tell the people? And he, of course, the way a
lot of politicians will deal with there's the way Obama deal with it. He
said, good politicians. He made a joke out of it. He said,
well, it depends whether they're Republicans or Democrats. And he was asked
a question at the at the when he was campaigning, this question about life
and outer space, and he actually truthfully stated his position that, you know,
there may be people coming from other planets here, but that's not my
interest. My interest and his interest is you know, the social policy and
the education and the poor people and all this sort of stuff, and that's
his bottom line. And even during the campaign, if you remember back to
the the the Texas uh uh uh Caucus or whatever they had down there,
uh, that was when Bill Clinton wayde made this big speech at NASA in
Houston and basically said this president uh or president or Obama is not a friend
of space, that Hillary is the person who's interested in space and you should
vote for for Hillary. So Bill was saying directly at that point that he
was not even interested in space, and you can see that right now.
Basically NASA has basically been shut down and he wants it to go private,
and it's just that it's not his his his interest and it's so hard to
get to the president to get an issue to the president that if a president
really doesn't want to deal with it, there's not much you're going to deal
with it because the White House Press Corps is not going to and asked the
question unless something happens, because they're all afraid of their jobs. You don't
want your White House Press passed pulled because you asked some stupid UFO question.
And you can see now in terms of the Republicans, we have an issue
where nobody's asked the Republicans about it. We haven't even requested, So why
would the president deal with it if nobody's asking the question? And that's basically
what comes down to. If you go to my presidential UFO website, you'll
see I've got the big UFO request from the from the Clintonston Library, and
that was the big request on UFO's flying saucers, you know, the regular
request, and it came back with nine hundred pages. And in there,
if you take a look at those nine hundred pages, how many letters written
to Bill Clinton about UFOs, like, mister President, do something? There
basically are none. And that's over eight years of presidency. That we sort
of think that we're we're doing big things and we're putting pressure and basically you
go and look and nobody's asking questions. Nobody's putting pressure on them, nobody's
asking the Republicans, We're we're just sort of sitting back and it becomes I
think one of our big problems is it's to a lot of us. To
you and I are a couple of researchers, we're kind of fanatical and we
spend all our time doing it, and all our relatives and friends think we're
a little bit weird, like, so what's the big deal and stuff like
that. But the vast majority of the UFO community, it's like an interesting
it's like ghosts or life after death. It's like we'd like to read the
books. And then you have the conference and everybody's like, oh, well
you can go to the holiday. We'll go to the conference and listen to
these interesting speakers and at the end of this, you know, you hear
the speaker, and nobody goes on to the next one. Nobody goes and
deals with that speaker, talks to the speaker. They just go on to
the next one. And it's like an entertainment factor to a lot of people
who are following the UFO community. We don't have that serious, hardcore thing
because I think a lot of it has got to do it. It's not
an issue of money. It's like if we're all losing our jobs because of
it, well then people would get upset, or if there was people getting
killed or or whatever. There's just nothing to really motivate it except sort of
like a curiosity and interest in this in this type of thing, and that's
not something that's going to motivate somebody to go and uh, you know,
stat outside the White House for three weeks or petition or do whatever, or
it doesn't play for politics. Politics is about, and especially in the United
States, it's about things that are related to money. Where the most capitalistic
country, I think probably in the world it's got to relate to the economy,
creating jobs or or hampering jobs, something like that around the economy.
And this doesn't have anything to do with the economy. If they do pulling,
it's basically comes down to and I've said this numerous times, it comes
down to getting elected. It's got nothing to do with solving issues. Got
to do with how do you get elected? So you you you pull and
the ten talk issues. That's what you're going to deal with. That's what
you're gonna be. I'm gonna be the messiah. I've got to save you
from what the tech you read those ten top things, the UFOs wouldn't be
in the top two hundred, right, you pold there would be, there
would be nothing there. And so that that's where they You can't really blame
them for not dealing with it, because why would you bring up an issue
that really nobody really is questioning you about or or concerned about. They basically
are at things that get them elected. And a lot of the things one
has actually worked in our behalf, which sort of shows you how this game
is played in the nineteen In nineteen, Clinton was dealing with Rockefeller. From
ninety three to ninety ninety six, and he actually met with Rockefeller in August
of nineteen ninety five when when they went to the Rockefeller ranch. Now a
lot of people think, well, he went to the Rockefeller ranch and there
was this UFO thing. People don't. If you look exactly what happened behind
the scenes, you'll see how this actually took place. And that was that
Dick Morris. Clinton was in a lot of trouble in ninety five for re
election and looked like he wasn't going to get reelected, and he brought on
Dick Morris to as his advisor. And these are these campaign guys who are
the guys who actually get them elected, and they read the polls and they
figure out how to do it. And what Dick Morris came up with is,
you've got to go and you've got to spend your holiday in the wilderness.
Clinton used to spend his holiday at the Hamptons with all the rich guys,
and they'd go at golfing and they'd go to cocktail parties and have a
good old time at you with all the rich people at the Hamptons. And
he said, no, you've got to go to the wilderness because Dick Morrison
determined in nineteen ninety six elections the swing voters. You gonna have your people
who vote vote Republican all the time, people who were vote Democrat all the
time. Everybody wants the swing voters, so you pull the swing voters.
What does the swing voters want? And in nineteen ninety five, Dick Morris
to determine the swing voters wanted somebody who was into They were into technology,
they were into the outdoors, they were into fishing and camping and skiing and
all this kind of stuff. So Clinton went to the Rockefeller Wrench. Not
because he wanted to go to the Rockefeller Wrench, because in nineteen ninety six
elections he was trying to get the swing voters, so he had to go
camping. He hated it. It's well known that he he hated being really
that's because he had to go. And he made the joke about doing the
whitewater rafting, and you know, he wanted to be with it with the
buddies in the Hamptons, but he had to go to the Rockefeller Ranch.
And that was because Dick Morris had had told him that you need the swing
voters. And that's why he went there to to the wilderness. He had
no intention of going to to Wyoming. That was the last place he wanted
to go and spend his holidays. So this is what people have to realize
what's going on behind the scenes. Is the day that ethology can get them
some votes or cause him some trouble, that's the day they're going to deal
with it. But as long as it's it's it doesn't really matter. They've
got so many things that they're that they're going to get them votes that this
is not something you were going to spend any time on whatsoever. Well,
in fact, and you know from from Gustich, who uh was a guy
who had you know, a major UFO sighting, not just a sighting,
he had a encounter. He was like two hundred yards away from this thing,
sitting right right there, he and a couple of witnesses, and he
gets cornered in the Democratic debate about this thing. And I followed the polls,
or not the polls, but the newspaper articles after he admitted that he'd
seen this UFO and there was hundreds of articles written about him, you know,
trying to get Cheney impeached and all different issues and every single one of
them sort of referred to him as this crazy UFO guy. And so if
he backed the way, and if Caucinich, who's a pretty hardcore guy,
Danny Sheen had run his policy on his one campaign, he was a pretty
guy guy who's open and is not afraid to say things. If he backs
off the UFO issue, then you can tell how toxic this thing is.
And everybody can just take a look if you're a politician, look at what
happened to Kucinach and think is this going to help me get reelected or is
it not? And people always think that it's a game of he wants to
help us, He's the Messiah, He's going to come and solve all our
problems. It's not. These guys have huge egos. They want to get
elected and they want to get re elected, and you need votes, and
that's what it all comes down to, is getting re elected. And you
can't solve anything unless you get re elected. And you can see all over
the world these these sort of crazy leaders who hang on the power. It's
it's it's sort of talks to that they've got to have the power, and
it's all about votes. It's all about getting elected. And I say that
it's off that. Yeah, we're in trouble if we start thinking there's something
else going on in politics, we're off track as to what we have to
do to actually get the UFO issue out there front and center or solved or
disclosure or whatever you want to call it. Right now, we're doing some
things that really don't mesh with what's actually what's actually going on behind the scenes.
Right got to be more savvy. And that's why I like what you
do. And I like hitting on the history because a lot of people forget
about the history because history can teach us a lot, and the history in
this field has taught us. I think over and over again what you just
said, because there have been these politicians in some cases who have been very
serious. You mentioned earlier Congressman Shift, but you also have Barry Goldwater,
you have Gerald Ford, you have Clinton himself, you have the un These
were big projects. These were big happenings where people were pushing hard. We
want answers on UFOs, and it shows a political route no matter what kind
of strength or people you have behind it has not been effective. Yeah,
for the Ford is a prime example. Because Ford do. People might not
know that jail Heinig was in his constituency and he had to sing with the
with the fightings in Michigan, which was his this area, and he was
getting you know, questions from constituents and stuff like that, and then Heine
came up made the stupid statement about the swamp gas and then he was infuriated.
Yeah, that Congressional one one. He's sort of hearing and then what
hearing? And then he's sixty eight one when other congressmen realized they've been we're
taking for a ride, and that went. But then you see what happens
once he gets to the White House. He becomes the president. His political
cover is gone. He's no longer just a you know, a congressman who's
fighting for his constituents. Suddenly he's the president. It's his cover up in
his UFO thing, and suddenly he goes silent. He doesn't do anything,
the same as Jimmy Carter. Jman Carter was very vocal about UFOs before he
got into the presidency. He was running and he was, you know,
he's had short sleeves, didn't wear the tie. He was going to be,
you know, with the outsider from outside of Washington and stuff like that,
and he was it was an issue that he was with the people.
We'd like some answer to this, I've seen something. I'd like some answers.
As soon as he gets in, it's like dead sounds because his political
cover is gone. And at these local levels. There's a lot of examples.
Even though the bizarre Lazarre thing, which I discovered when I wrote the
Area fifty one article, is that Bob Lazar had a congressman who was backing
him, who really George Knapp was using to because there was so much dispute
about the Palace s W two form and all this kind of stuff, and
he was writing these official letters, getting official answers as to who this guy
was, his tax records and all this sort of stuff. And even in
these bizarre cases, people don't know that there was congressmen who were involved,
that he wrote a letter on behalf of Lazarre when he went to court in
nineteen ninety one or whatever it was on this pandering chart. So you can
get these people on your side, and they can do a lot of damage
because they can write official letters and you can't slip off a congressman or a
senator, and a lot of them will do it because they actually are closer
to the vote. They know that your vote counts and that you can you
can cause some trouble, and they're trying to show that their answering constituents demands
and stuff like that, writing letters on everyhal They do this on all sorts
of subjects, and we should so you're saying, but just to clarify there
that Bob Lazar had a congressman that was sympathetic to his cause, and the
cause being that Bob Lazar said he worked at Area fifty one and worked on
back engineered daily in technology. This congressman believed that, and so this congressman,
because of that, helped him when Lazarre had some legal problems. Okay,
just of the bit of clarification. I think it was like believed it.
It was that that I think George Knapp, but George and Paston really
explained this whole thing. But it was James Bill Bray who was the guy,
and I think Napp was using Bill Bray to get answers, like we
need some answers on this WT form. I know that was one of the
things that we're looking at. Was was trying to get this this established?
Was this an official document like with this withy Babar had at W two that
said it was from the Navy right department of the Navy, and he said,
this proves that I did work at Area fifty one. So so Napp
was using this kind of stuff Turner, he was trying to track down all
this official material, trying to get some official acknowledgment that he'd worked at Les
Alamos, or he'd worked at Area fifty one, that he was getting paid,
this sort of stuff, and he was going through Bill Bray, and
Bill Bray as as any congressman would have to do, was writing letters on
his behalf, which are official letters, Whereas if Knapp were to write to
the Defense Environment, they would just sort of, you know, like who
cares, yeah letter. A congressman or a senator has a lot of a
lot of clout in terms of they have to answer his letter. They can't
just sluff him off. And that's what happened with with with Stephen Schiff is
that they sluffed him off to the And if you read and I've written an
article, I've never published it yet, but I wrote an article really details
what happened with Ship. And he was furious when they sent him to the
to the National Archives, and he realized that they were just running them around.
And then he went back to Clinton's Secretary of Defense and then the Secretary
Defense wouldn't answer his letters. He got curious, and that's he had the
power for whatever. He had his power to authorize this investigation by the Accounting
Office, and it was just his position. He said, okay, you
want to play that game. That's when the the Accounting Office came in and
forced them to rein investigate Rosweld. And it was because Shift got upset because
he was being he was being jerked around by by the Department of Defense and
sent to all sorts of places and was realized he was getting the run around.
And of course the Air Force or the report that Shift forced said there
was nothing to roswold. Yeah, they still play that game, but you
can get close. In fact, you got close twice in the Roswell thing.
People. Some people don't realize there was too Roswell reports. It was
the first one that came out and that was forced by There was actually a
number of forts. There was the Shift report, which was different than the
Air Force report. The Air Force report was forced by Rockefeller, and Rockefeller
had gone in and said they basically said, well, you know, we
really can't do anything and stuff. And he said, you know, I'm
thinking of putting a major ad in all the major newspapers in the United States
asking for disclosure. They said, okay, hang on, hang on,
We'll do And it was they requested like the Rockefeller was asking for the amnesty,
which was granted by the Secretary of the Air Force in ninety three.
They gave amnesty to all the Roswell people. That was Rockefeller pushed that,
and Rockefeller won of the investigations. So there was the Air Force and then
there was the GOA report, which is two separate. But when the Air
Force report came back that Rockefeller had forced through the Science Advisor, it went
back and Clinton saw it. And then Clinton goes to Belfast, Northern Ireland
to light the Christmas tree in November of nineteen ninety five, and that's when
he stands up and he challenges the report indirectly. He says, if there
was no crash at Rosweld, but if the Air Force did recover bodies,
they didn't tell me about it, and I want to know, and I
went off to the speeches and that I want to know part wasn't in the
original speech. Wow, Clinton had lived that when he gave the speech,
he said, I want to know. And so in nineteen ninety seven,
the Air Force does a second Roswell report, and nobody's ever explained until you
you see this speech in nineteen ninety five, the Clinton gave as to why
did they do a second report? The second report they come out with the
bodies, the stupid story about the six foot wooden dummies that were dropped in
nineteen fifty three and the time shifting, all this nonsense. And that was
the Air Force getting stuck by Clinton to say, I don't believe you.
You didn't explain the bodies because there's no report of the bodies in the first
Roswell report. They don't talk about the people seeing the little alien bodies.
So the Air Force has to go back and explain the bodies. So they
go back and do a second Roswell report, and they put it back on
the President's desk and say here's your answer to the air to the bodies,
and Clinton and is now it's his Air Force so he's stuck, he can't
do anything, and he just gives up. And there are actually two reports
and this is one is forced forced by by Shift and the second one is
forced by Clinton because Clinton got upset right first row report. So this is
the way it works, is that sometimes I think disclosure may come from somebody's
just pushing a congressman, or something happens and some president or some congressman just
gets upset and decides, I'm gonna run with this thing. Now. To
clarify, you've seen it the number of times in the past that this has
happened. In fact, I say that if you take a look through uiful
history and take a look at all the highlights of uoful history where things have
happened, it's always happened that way. And that's a pattern that I think
we should take a look at, we should follow, and we should try
to put pressure in. The Kansas City thing was a prime thing, or
the Phoenix Lights thing. If people in Phoenix had really gotten on top of
that Phoenix Light thing and had gone to the congressman and put pressure on him,
something would have happened. Now the congress these councilwoman had gone to McCain
and McCain had gone and asked questions about the Phoenix Light thing. So but
it just gave up. Nobody there was enough pressure on John McCain to keep
this thing going. But there there If the Phoenix people had gotten this thing
and really put pressure on it would have a Congressman would have had some footing
to to put some pressure on, to put some pressure to get a response
that just bluffs everybody off, Like has been the result of all of these
though, I mean even Chiff and all of these kind of just like what
what Bassett received, all of these kind of fluff answers that come back.
But but the Shift thing was an official thing. They spent millions of dollars
on this study, right, and they had to scramble to walk their way
out of the thing. The I say, when when it comes to the
Phil Larson response from the White House, this is the worst, absolute worst
response we've ever gotten. This is pre ninety forty seven. If you take
a look at the the Group of report, they basically said, okay,
there's you know, whatever percentage twenty two percent unknowns, but we don't believe
it's national security, and we don't believe this there was a little bit of
light at the end of the tunnel that there was something to it. We
just don't believe it's national security and there's not enough evidence or whatever. This
thing says, there's nothing. There's absolutely nothing to the subject at all.
But said in Martin's defense though he's addressing specifically extraterrestrial intelligence, that's people's interpretation.
That's people's interpretation is I don't know if Larsen would have read it that
way, that we're going to play by the word and say, okay,
this is eke. I think it was just like in fact he said if
you remember the fa where he says we got stuck, but I don't think
he uses the word ekey, we got stuck with the alien something, right,
Kevin, What the wording was he he's writing to somebody and he said,
we got tagged having to answer this, and he uses alien something,
but he doesn't use the word et. So I think that's an interpretation people
have that if we changed the word eke, he might have answered it.
There was no chance that they're going to touch it. They know it's UFO
is a cup. Well, I think they would have fucked it off.
But they wouldn't have addressed et it would have been a different answer. I
think it would have been really interesting to see what that answer would have been.
But if it was worded properly, like for instance, the Zabel Dolean
one or whatever one, because Robert Solace had written one also which wasn't was
addressing the phenomena of the unknowns rather than the extraterrestrials, and so it might
have been a different answer because this is certainly extra treastural, and it gives
him an easier answer because right now, astrobiology is a big deal. I
mean, people in the astrobiology is in the news every day about this possible
planet having life from Mars possibly having life and the Moon, and we're closer
to this, so there's an official kind of stance or mainstream stand out there
that is discussed on a regular basis. Okay, But the difference between that
is and he Larsen was with Mars project, he had a Mars background.
And I bring this up is that if if you're talking about you know,
some planet out you know, wherever, it's no threat, everybody can hypothesize
that there's gonna be some sort of ety life as long as it doesn't look
like ours because evolution doesn't allow to exactly species to be the same. So
you've got planets out there, you've got something going on on Mars. Whatever.
That's not a threat. It's when it's here. And that's where I
said that that Larsen, despite the fact he had really no input in the
whole thing, is not going to say yes, even if it's UFOs,
yes, we I think we should take a look at upo's and properly investigate
incidents involving planes. I think what he would have said is probably something like
people misidentify things all the time, or something fluffy like that, and maybe
even thrown in the goofy thing with the lady from Setie I can't remember her
name, who says, oh, you know, I thought I saw you
upon it turned out to be the moon. Yeah, I mean, I
see, but there's a threat there. In terms of vested interest, you
got people have to remember that the Office of the Science Advisor has got a
bunch of vested interest. In one is, you just sent a probe to
Mars which costs two and a half billion dollars. It's one dollars over budget
to drill a hole in a rock looking for some sort of evidence that there's
some sort of micro evidence of life. And so if you suddenly say,
say say they would answer to the DOLE in petition say okay, yes we
should properly, we should properly reinvestigate UFO sightings here on Earth and give it
a proper scientific investigation. Who's going to spend two and a half billion dollars
for another probe if you just suddenly admit that, yes, maybe there is
some evidence that they're already here. Well, but I don't think that two
things are necessarily connected, because of course, every a lot of people feel
that. Not everybody's invested in the extraterrestrial hypotheses, even people who are asking
for people to look into the UFO phenomena, Nick Pope for example, Or
there's a lot of people, the UAP people, maybe you could call them,
who believe there could be other answers Jacques Vallet, even j Allen Heinek
himself that there could be other answers other than extraterrestrill So one doesn't necessarily mean
the other. Okay, but I still think there's that for Larsen to be
a Mars guy. But I see your point I mean that he said that
we should be looking here on Earth. It gets very hard for you if
if you go out in front of Congress and you want another two and a
half billion dollars to send another probe to drill holes in Mars, They're going
to say, well, you're looking here on earth. I mean, why
don't you just you know, it's a lot cheaper. Why don't we just
spend this. Why should we give you two and a half billion dollars.
There's a lot of best at interest, a lot of jobs at stake in
keeping this thing suppressed that that mar I mean NASA. I mean if if
it were actually admitted that that you had disclosure and there was UFOs, I
mean, what happens to NASA? Like, who's gonna spend billions of dollars
on NASA? When suddenly it becomes apparent that they're already here and like what
do we spend This is like a you know, you get to John leear
argument that this is like some big, huge pr thing to you know,
to scam people, and everybody's gonna suddenly get that idea like what we've been
taken taken for a ride here that they've already's been lying to us, and
the NASA thing just falls apart, and it's in trouble already. And that's
one of the reasons why in the Carter administration and now again NASA wouldn't touch
this thing with a ten foot pole, because, I mean, their budget's
been cut. This is not their their their thing to do. Their thing
is to go and explore outer space, and it's it's nobody's real issue.
And then you get to the issue with with that. John Alexander brings up,
which I agree with, is people who are pushing for congressional studies and
all this kind of stuff. He always says, be careful what you wish
for. You may get it. The Congress may take this issue, take
a look at it, and there's so much power behind the scenes that they're
going to come out with another blue book thing and say this is an absolute
pile of nonsense. Then where do you go mm hmm that that there's there's
these forces behind that will even if you can get it, and you need,
you know, piles of Congressmen and senators to sort of buy onto this
thing because you need both houses to get to get anything through. Uh,
you're gonna have a lot of people who are gonna are gonna fight this,
and they have a lot of power, and we in the UFO community,
which I think is the bottom line, is we have no power, we
have no money, and we have no influence and we we are just basically
a bunch of a couple of researchers and everybody else just it's a hobby.
Yeah, And that's not something that the government, especially when they don't get
a single request or a letter on it, that they should suddenly change gears
and forget about the economy, forget about the situation in the Middle East or
whatever, and suddenly go after this issue that nobody's ever written on. This
is I mean, I always say you have to take a look at how
they think. That's what I always do is I try to see why are
they covering this thing up? What if I was on the other side.
And I've said numerous times that if I was on the other side and I
had the issue, I'd probably do exactly the same thing they would do.
I would be covering Oh yeah. Unfortunately I'm not on their side, so
I'm playing the other game. But if I was on their side, I
could see, like, oh, man, but you know, I always
think of putting myself in their shoes too. As far as if I was
Obama's PR guy, even being someone who's sympathetic to the UFO phenomena, I
would be like, you know what, Hey, this isn't the right time
to touch this. Let's if we even want to go there, this isn't
the time to do it. Yeah, Which is a prime example, because
I wrote I've written a number of articles which I haven't really published. I
sort of get and I get interested in researching the articles and finding stuff.
I was going to do an article in Podesta. Somebody asked me about what's
Podesta? And if you take a look at Podesta, Podesta was known as
the xpells guy in the Clinton White House. He's extremely interested in the subject
and he used to He actually phoned Area fifty one to see if there was
something going on Area fifty one, and he was really interested. When he
got out of power and Clinton got out and Bush came in, that's when
he made this speech and said, I think we should get to the bottom
of this thing. And everybody looked at it and said, well, this
is the messiah that you know what he Obama gets in. Podesta's going to
go and talk to Obama. We're going to have disclosure and it's all going
to open up, and people have to realize how power politics works. That
now Podesta is on the other side. He's now back in power and he
is not the press president, and he cannot come out and say, yes,
I think we're getting messed around. UFOs are for real, and I
think Obama should do something. He can't speak on behalf of the president once
he's in power. Is what happened when I had my local representative write letters
to the game government on my behalf. Once he got into power, he
wouldn't do anything for me. And that's the problem, is that Podesta's power
in power now and he can't speak on behalf of the president. He doesn't
want to put the president in the position where the president has to answer the
question because it's going to make the president look bad and he's going to get
the blame for Plus, he's also working for Hillary. So you've got him
working for the State Department one day a week and Obama going out. But
he potentially that Hillary's going to come back in and run and could win and
end up in the presidency. For eight more years. This is a type
of thing that if Hillary gets in, I would say my personal impression is
Podesta will do nothing until there's a Republican back in again. Because once you're
in power, you can't speak be after the president. You don't want to
put the president in a bad light. Everybody's you know, or your second
term because there's always the second term wildness. Second term president can especially towards
you, and do whatever the hell they want if they if they have if
they have thee if they don't want mine about hurting their party though, because
of course they don't want to hurt their party. Well, in Obama's case,
I disagree. I used to think that too. In Obama's case,
Obama is so determined to get re elected. He's running against his own party.
He's gonna run against the do nothing Congress, and that he's running against
the Democrats. He's gonna run against his own people. And there was an
example, there's this Keystone XL pipeline coming from Canada. Did Obama put it
off? He didn't say yes, he didn't say no. He just said,
we're gonna put it off because we got we got the answers, We're
gonna put off until last year the election. And one of the people I'd
always here, somebody said, this shows that Obama had a chance to create
ten thousand jobs and instead he chose to save one his own. He didn't
say yes, he didn't say no. He just put off the lot after
the election because he doesn't want to offend anybody before the election. If he
says yes, he's gonna offend the one group. He just says no for
the pipeline, he's gonna offend the other group, is gonna lose votes this
way, he just puts it off and he can play mister politician. He's
a prime politician. Yeah, he's everybody. Well more than that too,
because he's got a he he's upset a lot of people about being weak and
at least this he can put his foot down and seem strong. And I
agree it's that I was going to bring this up earlier to prime politics.
It's a great example of a politically motivated move and how everything's politically motivated,
especially right now. Oh exactly. Yeah. People have to realize the amount
of money that's in there, and if you if you put up thirty five
dollars to go to a campaign dinner, get your picture taken with the president,
you expect something to return. Nobody's going to convince me that those people
are doing it for nothing, right, so much money involved in the background,
and anybody who's in ufology, who's actually researched and tried to get research
funds or run websites, knows there is no money in euthology. There's nothing.
Yeah, And so I agree with you. I think it comes down
to a lot of in this build, putting the horse before or putting the
car before the horse. I mean, going to the politicians and going to
these places without having that energy or that strength or backing, and so just
falling flat. It's like, you know, coming to the table with nothing.
And that's the problem that keeps happening. And I think, you know,
I think people get frustrated because it's been decades and it's slow going.
But kind of like what you've said here, it's harder for this particular issue
than practically any other because than many others because you have you have, there's
no money behind it. There's no jobs or political nothing like that going on.
Plus so there's no motivation on either side. And if there is,
this secrecy. You have a lot of people in power who benefit from nothing
happening in this field. So I think what happens when I have a hope
and I want to hear your opinion on this is that of course, there's
a lot of polls that show a lot of people are interested. And even
though UFO are mostly entertainment, feel like you're talking about it's a very popular
thing to the public, so entertainment can play to it. News, as
you know, covers this subject a lot. You know, TV shows are
really popular right now on the subject. But I don't think that's a bad
thing because I think doing that, hitting the news, hitting the mainstream television,
that at least starts to garner some sort of population that feel more and
more comfortable to talk about it. And you have to grow and foster that
huge population before you can do anything. Yeah, exactly. I mean,
as I said, it's like building the layers of a cake. Sometimes you
look at something and you say, when I first saw the mass competition,
I thought, wow, this is kind of goofy. I mean, knowing
the White House, what what was going to happen? I sort of thought,
well, this is kind of crazy, or people were down on the
Disclosure project or extra politics and stuff like this. I think these things are
all things that we need. People are now if you talk to even somebody
on the street about disclosure UFO disclosure, they sort of know what it is,
or even exopolitics. These things are sort of we're sort of educating the
people where they all the foundations are being laid and it's it's there's a guy
who wrote a book on invention that nothing really just gets invented. It's built
one on top of another. Like you know, Facebook is built on the
Internet. The Internet was built on ARPA Neet and that was built on primitive
computers that you get building and people build on it. And I think all
these things have to come in place and when the time is right, then
it will happen. The thing that I think, as I said, we're
missing, we're missing the money and the other thing we're missing is the real
hard sort of the pressure politics. People who are ready to go out there
and really put pressure on And the prime example was in two thousand and four
during the presidential campaign Wesley Clark. General Wesley Clark's a four star general who
had a unified command is in New Hampshire. He's campaign in New Hampshire and
he's asked by j Buckley, the astronaut. He says, what's your vision
of space? And he starts about this thing about, oh, I believe
we can go past the speed of light up argued with cyssists and this sort
of stuff, and I'm going, wow, I mean this guy's yeah.
At the time, he's leading the Democrats. And then I got a an
email that said he's been briefed on crash flying saucers. So I went to
all the MUFON directors state directors I could find, and we knew his campaign,
we knew he was going, and I asked these MUFON state directors,
he's there, he's having these townhouses and stuff. Somebody asked him the question.
I asked, Cheeney, have you ever been briefed on the subject of
UFOSS? And I got MUFON state directors coming back to me. Three of
them at least said I don't want to do that. I don't want to
embarrass him. And I said, you don't want to embarrass him. We
don't want embarrass him. If we don't want to ask the question, why
would you expect the media or anybody else to go out and solve this for
us, this is our problem to solve, This is our thing that Yeah,
and we just don't have the guts. When Laura Johnstone went and went
on this forty two day hunger strike to get Bush to come and clean on
UFOs, she was ridiculed. If you go back to UFO updates and you
look at the postings, she was ridiculed. She's crazy. What is with
this woman? She's nuts, She's making us all look bad. She was
a real radical who was ready to give her life. And I asked her
when I went to California when it ended. I said, Laura, why
did you quit the UFO? Why did you quit your hunger strike after forty
two days? She said, I just decided the UFO community didn't care,
and if they don't give a damn, why should I die for them?
Yeah. People are so cynical in this build. I mean, even with
these petitions, people unfortunately don't get out and do something. They don't even
sign these petitions. How tough at it is it to click some links exactly,
even if the websitees having problems, come back to the website daily if
you have to just to click a couple of clicks, big deal. But
to protesting, if you take a look at the New York protests or off
here they call them change protests. These people didn't even know what they're protesting.
They had no but they what they were doing. They knew how to
get this thing. They could get the twenty five thousand people to a protest
and they know what they're doing. And I think we have you know,
we have to learn from history and we have to learn from protest movements what
to do. There's there's a pattern. People follow a pattern, and if
we want to do something, we've got to learn how to do it properly.
Right, well, you know what, we're pretty much out of time,
and I want to thank you again. This is extremely interesting. I
think it's very insightful. Hopefully it inspires people to to be a little more
savvy about this and to think a little harder, because all of this is
more complicated than it looks, and we have to look to, like you
said, these successful programs to see how that works, and that we need
to amass this credibility. We've got to bring something to the table. You
can't just you know, be a mouse. You got to be an elephant,
you know, to come charging through the door, and we're just there.
I mean, you've you've you've done as much as anybody you've well,
and I think this kind of stuff is working. We're we're amassing an audience.
And that's where I love about the Huffington Posts having us, you know,
right, and and luckily there are, like you said, a few
a handful of great researchers such as yourself, who give us a lot of
fodder, give a lot of credible information to get out there. So yeah,
you know, you're as I always say, you're one of my favorites
in your work is so important and great. Thank you so much for being
on the show again. And I want to tell everybody presidential UFO dot com.
And I guess I should ask you is there something coming up? Is
there something you want to plug? No, I'll be in Phoenix. I'm
seeing Phoenix. That's my big thing. I'm coming to the contracting. I'm
going to look at the Goldwater papers, which is something I don't know you.
I think your people open minds look down. Yes, when I went
I I've got the sort of I haven't got the inventory, but I got
there's over three hundred pages, yeah, UFO files in the Goldwater thing.
And I'm also going I'm spending a day to two days to go up to
Albuquerque and I'm going to look at the SHIFT papers and there's always great amount
of material, and that's part of my thing is that I always believe I'm
not gonna see disclosure. I've admitted that I really don't care whether it's disclosure
or not. My thing is, I figure I was honored to have been
involved in you a ful thing, to have a sighting, to have been
involved in UFU community. And my thing is to record as much of what
has happened now for people five hundred year from now, because five hundred years
they'll say, man, I wish I'd been when these guys were there.
This was fantastic. We're here and I'm honored to be here to be a
part of it, and I'm trying to document as many of these papers and
I put them up on my website. So I'm gonna have the Goldwater papers
up, and I'm gonna have all the SHIFT papers. I'm going to Albuquerque
to photograph all the SHIFT papers, so that that's I guess the only thing
I've got and I'll be at the UFO Congress and we'll get together. And
I appreciate all you've done for me. You've you've promoted my stuff, and
you're one of the good guys. So thanks did oh buddy. All right,
we'll see in a few weeks, you bet, the Great grand Cameron.
If you notice he said ao lot, it's because he's out there in
Canada, and that's why our connection wasn't one hundred percent. He's up there
in the cool Canadian tundra and we're out here in the warm Arizona desert.
But thank you guys so much for listening. Don't forget to join us next
week, and also visit PRESIDENTIALUFO dot com for more on Grant. Visit Openminds
dot tv and Ufodailynews dot com for your latest and greatest UFO news. Talk
to you next week, people,