WEBVTT

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You are listening to the IFH podcast
Network. For more amazing filmmaking and screenwriting

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podcasts, just go to IFAH podcast
network dot com. Welcome to the Bulletproof

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Screenwriting Podcast, Episode number two ninety
two, except no one's definition of your

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life, Define it yourself. Harvey
Fierstein broadcasting from a dark, windowless room

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in Hollywood when we really should be
working on that next draft. It's the

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Bulletproof Screenwriting Podcast, showing you the
craft and business of screenwriting while teaching you

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how to make your screenplay bulletproof.
And here's your host, Alex Ferrari.

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Welcome, Welcome to another episode of
the Bulletproof Screenwriting Podcast. I am your

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humble host Alex Ferrari. Now,
today's show is sponsored by Bulletproof Script Coverage.

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Now. Unlike other script coverage services, Bulletproof Script Coverage actually focuses on

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the goals of the project you are,

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so we actually break it down by
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Enjoy today's episode with guest host Jason
Buff. Today we are talking with

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Chris South, the author of Million
Dollars Screenwriting and the Mini Movie Method,

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And we're going to talk a little
bit later about what the mini movie method

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is and how you can use it
to help you with your screenplays. I'm

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not going to go into that now, but you definitely want to stick around

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and learn about that. It's a
way of putting your screenplay together, the

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structure and everything that I had never
really heard of. And Chris pretty much

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he is the inventor of this method
of putting a movie together into these mini

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movies. All right, let me
get to the episode. Here is Chris,

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So, So, what I wanted
to focus on first of all is

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a little bit about your background in
screenwriting and you know where where how you

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got into screenwriting? From the beginning. Sure, absolutely. I well,

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I guess I've been sort of a
nut for a story and structure since I

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was a kid. I was an
undergraduate major in drama, and I started

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studying your plays and play structure there
as well. I wanted to be an

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actor at the time, and I
just felt like, you know, there

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was something better and we could we
could know more about this than we had

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been given by Aristotle. Was kind
of out there in the general knowledge pool.

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And I did climb my traded actor
for about ten years also of the

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comedian and the magician, and started
writing in my own material and started using

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some of this story structure that I
had studied to, you know, to

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make that material a little better.
I sort of found if I was doing

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a six minute comedy set, because
I told a little story and there was

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a story shaping the whole thing,
I didn't have to be as funny,

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so where that needed funnier, and
so I would do that, and I

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started reading up on that and wrote
a novel. I worked on cruise ships

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actually, and I was doing those
comedy acts there and I had play a

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free time. So I wrote a
novel with that free time. And then

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I wrote the screenplay at that novel
and after that, you know, the

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bug had bitten me and I had
to know everything about screenwriting, started reading

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all the books. At that time
there were about three of them, and

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now, of course there are three
hundred. And I come sort of from

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an academic family, and if you
want to do something in my family by

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and largely get a school for it. My dad's a college professor. So

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I went back to school, University
of Southern California Film School, and that's

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where I found a far better structure
method which they call sequencing there, which

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I use and have you know,
studied and gone in depth with ever since,

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and sort of heightened and refined to
the mini movie method. I was

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very lucky at USC that I wrote
a screenplay there that was my thesis.

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I am a graduate screenwriting program and
that's old for three quarters of a million

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dollars, and that became a movie
called fire Stool. So, you know,

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very fortunate to you know, have
one of those big splashy specs sales

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on the front page of Brian Hollywood
Requarter the next day. Very fortunately get

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the movie made, and lucky enough
to fly my trade in Hollywood ever since,

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and have kind of always taught as
well. I mentioned I come from

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an academic background and started teaching at
USC shortly after I left start at the

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usday Light Extension. And what I
found was outside of USC, people were

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not getting this method, this better
way of breaking stories down to you know,

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to sort of givous the overview of
the method. Rather than three acts,

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which is taken from playwriting, the
mini movie method breaks a story down

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or a screenplay down into eight mini
movies. So if we take Peter that

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two hour time pray of you know, one hundred and twenty minutes, we

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have eight sixteen minutes chapters or eight
mini movies that all add up to the

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story of the movie. And maybe
as I say this, you're thinking of

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movies you've seen, or you can
remember some movies you've seen where you felt

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like, you know, do a
certain visual queue or music queue that you've

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been given by the director of the
film makers. Oh, something has ended,

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everything's changed now and something new is
beginning. Right though, at the

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end of back two, you know
the cops partner will be killed and uh,

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you know he'll look at this,
you know, into the sky and

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holler no, righting. We know
that law on that way right, and

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the camera ends up into that God
shock because after he's talking to God,

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he say, no, God,
I dare you do this? Right?

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Well, a generally around the end
of back two or I would call him

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in the movie sick. And it's
kind of said, you know, one

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chapter is ended and another chapter is
beginning, and the music will smell uh

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two, But that they're actually eight
of those. And good stories have a

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structure that um of eight different tensions
of breaking the main tension the story down

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to eight different tensions each days on
a hope and fear on which they know

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the outcome of the main story will
rely. And once you've had that breakthrough,

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it becomes much simpler. I mean, it's never easy to write a

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story, but let's say this is
about eight times easier. Uh That that

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really helps you out. So that
kind of as you were saying, you

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know, people specialize in different areas. That was where I found the need

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and the niche work that We'll wait
a minute, this isn't the industry standard.

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Everybody should be doing this so much
simpler, so much easier. Um,

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you know, why aren't all the
screen letting books written about this?

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Methu I don't know how much you
know you gaple one screen letting or your

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listeners too. I know it's hard
to all kinds of film this year,

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but if you want to tell a
story that is going to help you.

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Um, you know, if you've
ever heard, you know, act two.

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If you read your for a screen
letting book in token you write thirty

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pages, that's hard enough, and
you've got that landmark of the acts one

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turning towards right. And now your
reward for that is you get to like

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six more without any sort of landmarks
to guide you on your way. Uh,

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you know that that's a nightmare.
And I think everybody knows that act

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two is where good screenplays go to
die, right you know? Yeah,

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I mean how many movies have a
promising start and kind of falter in the

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second act? I can tell you, you know, for every movie that

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does that, there are a thousand
screenplays and didn't make it right and and

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died there in the second act.
And this is the way, you know,

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this is a great way to kind
of keep your your second act popping

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right and really have a tension and
a build and you build you a really

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strong climact and have a little mini
climactors and mini movies along the way as

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each tension resolve and in terms,
So now do you do you chart that

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in some sort of way where you, you know, say, okay,

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the first mini movie needs this,
needs to happen, the second mini movie

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this. You know, do you
give a old guideline of the things that

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need to happen along the way?
Oh? Yeah, absolutely. I mean

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we are after you know, hundreds
of years of stories and over a hundred

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years of movies. Tally thousands of
years of stories and about one hundred plus

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years of movies. We can kind
of figure this out and the method actually

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trumps from the fact, and we
sort of it starts to emerge because I

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would argue good stories always did this
kind of by accident, and I think

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that you know, what's making them
good starts to emerge when you know,

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by serendipity, U film starts to
be shot on reels and a real hole,

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you know, pretty close to fifteen
minutes the film, and the early

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filmmakers, as they develop what becomes
a modern day feature film, you know,

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find an advantageous to plot out a
chapter per reel. Right, So

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I don't think you know, Sam's
Goldman was ever, you know Champas and

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Arson, we have problem in act
too. He wouldn't have known what an

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act was. We'll be right back
after a word from our sponsor, and

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now back to the show. I
don't think Ben Heckt in the golden age

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of Hollywood was saying that either.
I think he was saying, we've got

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to fix the fifth wheel. So
there's absolutely attempt with a pattern that you

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know, between me and you know, Joseph Campbell and you know a lot

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of other people who have studied stories
in the folklore, we can say many

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movie one is very typically going to
do this. Many we choose and to

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typically do this, and you can
identify it sort of a broad tumeric way,

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mainly because of you know where it
is on the time one. Right,

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if if a story is if if, if a mini movie is the

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beginning of the story, there are
certain obligations and task it has to perform,

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introducing the main character, setting the
main tension, showing this world things

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like that. There's you can generate
a checklist pretty easily likewise at the end,

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and then it's sort of filling in
that that middle where you know things

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are in this Cheshire but there's a
much more you know, detailed template than

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that that I gave in my book
A million dollars screen running the mini movie

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method. That is actually the more
Amazon relatively recently to only be able to

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get from my website at ten times
time. So I advise everybody Amazon,

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um and and you can identify those
kind of broadly and cherically, and then

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you can sort of separate them by
genre too. You can say, okay,

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well, are they in a monster
movie. This is kind of a

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thing that starts to be happening.
It starts in we see in many movie.

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One can come up with different patterns
as well. Likewise in a love

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story, right, uh those those
free There's three famous Hollywood sentences boy meets

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girl, right, that tends to
be the end of anu we want boy

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loses girl. We all kind of
know that the end of that too,

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that's heart break occurs, and then
boy jets girl will be somewhere there in

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the third act the movie seven or
eight. So you know there's a plot

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points they're talking about what they ploy
Girl jets girl, right. Uh So,

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so yeah, there is is a
general pattern and it breaks down a

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genre. And then you know,
in my mentorship program that that springs by

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mentor dot com seeing through to check
it out. I will guide you the

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deptop through just you know the genre
of story that you're doing, not just

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what all stories do, but what
your specific stories do. I feel like

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that's that's what we all have to
master. We oft to master the story

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in general. Then the dictates the
genre, and then we have to find

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what our own unique stories to tell
and howden's best told, because that's what's

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going to differentiate it from all the
other stories of the genre and all the

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other stories in the world. Right
right now, when I was wondering if

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you could do just to give an
example of the eight mini movies in action,

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Um, is there a movie in
particular that you use to demonstrate those

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eight mini movies just so that people
can have an idea of how it breaks

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down. Yeah, I don't know
that I have one absolutely by heart and

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by memory, but I know,
uh, you know the notes I'll go

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to when I when I'm asked this
question, and I probably could get you

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one of these two movies entirely from
memory and give you all eight of the

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mini movie. But people are hearing
this are saying, well, now,

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that's that's interesting. I'd like to
see that in action of what movies I

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look at. Um. Absolutely,
the movie seven. When I first heard,

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uh that conceit, you know,
I was in It was in my

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second year of grad school at the
time, and I interviewed Arnold Copeleson,

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who had bought the script, and
he said, oh, it's about a

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serial killer who is killing people,
uh in you know, in the mode

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of the deadly sins, right,
And I immediately knew, oh, well,

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that's one deadly sin for many movies, right right, and it it

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almost is. It's it's a little
more sophisticated MAP. But once in a

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while on I had, you know, like an idea like that where there's

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sort of a number, you know, right in the concept that is,

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you know, very close to seven
or eight, and and I say or

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six, And I say, well, okay, now now the six,

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I say, now my story three
quarters outlines, right, that's story the

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seven, seven eighths of the way
two outlos. Uh. It's slightly different

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than map, and that I can
I mean, I I don't have it

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my memory so much that I can
say, you know, many movies three

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is uh lust right, Um,
well, that's a pretty good jazz actually

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U right, um so it's seven
really. Six of the mini movie of

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seven are dictated by are all sort
of short films of leading up to a

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ghastly tableau where in which someone has
been killed that is staged to look look

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like a declining of one of the
deadly sins um that happened six of the

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of the eton and it is a
full um eight mini movie structure. Uh.

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They just they knock going off right
away in the free credit frequency of

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the first scene is brad Kitten mortars
even showing up at one of these,

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So now now they're sticks left.
Maybe that mini movie ends with another one.

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Uh. And then in the to
minuvie four that's all about chasing the

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killer. They're they're on the track
of the killer there and he shows up

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at the police station, his fingerprints
cut off in safety as a chiller they

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called John Joe. Uh and then
he escaped down that's going to movie before

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so uh so two of them are
knocked off by by bring two in the

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movie one and one is one is
eliminated by in the movie four and the

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other six each steven start in a
mini movie. So if I would if

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I had that brilliant idea, I
would just say, okay, well this

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is the Lust mini movie, and
that is the slowth in mini movie,

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and this is the Glutton movie.
Um, and I would you let the

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attention to find that and I would
let that scene means view the pages I

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was writing, and seven is very
well written and doesn't appear to us as

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epicomic at all, because it's all
sort of all those pearls are hung on

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the string um touching one serial killer
who is perpetrated all of these acts,

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right, and we learning a little
more about game each time. So there's

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a great example. A very good
movie and a very good screenplay, but

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sold the respect using this method.
And I feel like you have sort of

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a little laugh of recognition where I
said that, Uh, they like,

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oh of course, and but we
don't experience you know, the movie that

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way and go, oh, well
this is just spordilaic Uh. Oh my

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job is cool and park at twisty
right. Uh. Likewise, a winner

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of Best Picture and Best Screenplay.
I'm probably a little old living more.

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I love it from my childhood.
Its divisional deVie. Uh. Seven Oscars

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swept the Oscars that year, A
great period con man movie called The Sting.

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So in the Sting, at least
through the second act, um title

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cards come up that give a title
to each mini vie sou. So there

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in that all important second act,
I think it actually goes into the third

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act too. No, I know, I could be wrong about that.

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Um. So that second act is
chaptered very specifically with tensions that are almost

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exactly fifteen minutes long. So,
uh, you'll really see it there,

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and you'll see it in the second
act where it's so important that things don't

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get static, that you haven't been
trying to resolve the same tensions too long,

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that it is evolved a little bit, or the stakes have whistle that

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your you know, your heroes are
now trying to do something different to solve

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the problem. Um. The second
act is where you know, you know,

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as an audience or a reader,
which can kind of look at a

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lot saying looking kind of be statics
for a long time, nothing really changes

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here. Let's let's you know,
quicken the pace guy. Um So they're

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all chaptered quite quite specifically. Uh. And it's a great one treat for

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you to see a study because hey
screens best picture, right. Um So

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I could go into more detail about
that, and I could picture to you

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by Numary. I don't know if
it's you know, our best, our

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best possible study here, but uh, it's you know, it's the go

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go take a look at yourself.
You're the um. Just quickly at the

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end of the year, we won. The Robert Redford character once or Gange

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against the gangster shield his combat partner. At the end of two he enlist

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the Paul Newman character to help him. Now that's what you've probably been taught

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to call act you want and you're
demitted to. Uh, they're going to

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pull the big comp on the gangster. Uh. And to do that they,

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I think Paul Newman says it in
the first act. We've got to

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set the hook so we can tell
them the tale that we can pull the

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wire and uh, and that'll sting
it right. And those are the four

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title cards. They are the hook, the tail, the wire, and

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the state will be back after a
word from our sponsor and now back to

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the show. Um, and they're
all sort of mine cons they have to

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pull along the way to pull off
the big con, which it is ultimately

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the sting into which the movie takes
the title. So the con and you

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know, getting the money from the
mark is called the sting, and that's

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the tension. The way up there
in MINII seven is a break up to

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break the third act um I'll make
I'll just I just said one and two

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or what you've heard called the first
act these three to four or five and

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six. There is what is called
the second act ends seven and agor what

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you've heard called the third act.
So you'll see, you know, we

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divide this by fifteen, you know, one hundred and twenty pages or minutes

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by fifteen. You'll see that.
You know, two of my plotting sort

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of ones you're familiar at the end
of act two, at the end of

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that, at the end of actual
one, in the inter BacT two.

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Uh so, uh you know,
the tension of the hook is they got

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to hook the marking who wants to
be in you know, uh in this

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con that she will actually think he's
a con man. Uh So they got

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to set the hook in you know
the fish. Uh. There, and

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our ship is we hope they can
we fear that the whole calm be blown

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because it will be along it's going
off. So does that make sense?

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And you know just and I didn't
an exercise within seven to actually recommend this

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to my clients and my students and
anybody out here who you know, wants

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to use the mini movie weapons.
It's a good exercise to title to your

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mini movie. You're gonna title the
movie. Uh, you know your movie

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will have a title. Why not
give your mini movie a title? So

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I said, you know, I'd
call that the the Pride, uh mini

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movie right, uh, you know
for anvie called Pride. Except they don't

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have title. Clients come up from
seven, right, Uh, but they

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do. They literally do in the
thing, you know, the great great

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Scott chops on Marvin Hamler's score will
come up, and the title card the

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sort of Norman rock wellish image from
the Coming when the Few will will come

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up and it will play the hook. Right. It really, you know

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creates in your mind as when you
returning a page you came through chapter five

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and it's a title. Um,
you know if it creates sort of a

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preparation the viewer's mind that oh,
we'll coming to something new, okay,

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so something has ended, something new
beginning. Now you know that's not going

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to work for every movie because of
that's a stylistic wave of telling a story.

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In some movies, you know,
you want to go by so fast

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and not have that quaint if the
new chapter sort of feel that we experienced

296
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them seamlessly. Kind it's a little
harder to see these plot points and new

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turns intention but they are there.
They are none there and they're working to

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support. Now, what is your
process when you're creating a screenplay? How

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far do you go with um outlining
and creating somewhat of a blueprint before you

300
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actually get into the you know,
the writing phase. You know, it

301
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depends, and it is anywhere from
absolutely outlined to you know where writing the

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00:23:26.200 --> 00:23:36.200
screenplay is an afterthought to jumping in
having one eight sentence out one Uh yeah,

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and that's uh, you know,
you know it's I keep using at

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number eight. Right, and there
are eight mini movies. So I wrote

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Firestorm, the you know, the
screenplay that sold for requarters a million dollars

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that they bee over a million year
with a long haul. Uh, just

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with those eight sentences and what they
were was just a turning point I would

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jot down to end each mini movie. Right, So, uh, now

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do I outline and more detail than
that? I do? What I might

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do it in process. So if
I so, it kind of depends on

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the work situation I'm in and and
sort of my mood. If I can't

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wait to get right in, I
might you know, brainstorm there's a turning

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point and dive in. If I'm
working with a studio or other producers or

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a collaborator, and it's a good
idea that we all are on the same

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page. Uh, and understand you
know that what the story is going to

316
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be. I mean there, you
know, in a want of detail,

317
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I might create a treatment that is
quite detailed, the most I would ever

318
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create what being paid point? Is
it again? Eight page treatment? And

319
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it will shock you to when that's
one page for any movie? Right?

320
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Um? So uh and you know
my collaborator who you know through my role

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points, you know, I'll points
by anybody. I liked it with the

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many movie method. But when I'm
working with a client, um, you

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know, it's sort of up to
them. Uh. And I'll say,

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listen, you can bring in an
outline or you know, uh, let's

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do let's do our brain, sir. But we've come up to the eight

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turning points of the mini movie.
And what um, and I might say

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next week, blow each of those
those sentences up and do a paragraph.

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Uh, and then maybe blow each
paragraph up and do a page. Uh.

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And then we're going to take each
of those you know, pages of

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pros written and treatment style, and
we're going to blow the weapon of at

331
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ten to fifteen page and with the
screen set. That's a very typical process

332
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for me. Now, when I'm
running myself, as I said, I

333
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might just jot down the turney all
in so you know what, and it's

334
00:25:51.640 --> 00:25:53.119
it would be kind of like you
just heard me do for this two,

335
00:25:53.200 --> 00:25:56.400
for this pain, at the end
of the day one, his partner is

336
00:25:56.480 --> 00:26:00.200
killed. If the end of ady
the two he gets a new partner at

337
00:26:00.240 --> 00:26:03.160
the end of the NEWE three,
he'd set the hook right now. I'll

338
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know what that means. I'm all
strolled on the back of an envelope somewhere.

339
00:26:07.720 --> 00:26:10.279
Uh. And then I might actually
start writing description, but I will

340
00:26:10.400 --> 00:26:15.799
do more outlining. It's just sort
of in processing or will in process,

341
00:26:15.920 --> 00:26:19.400
which means, you know, when
I get to that mini movie that wasn't

342
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really very full in my mind,
I guess very often enough movie five,

343
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I guess I'm a good point.
I'm always that you know which is the

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end of the four through the map
right all the strong good point five to

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me, sometimes the most amorphic new
movie than that that can happen back to,

346
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which is you know one of those
places its intis got to die.

347
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And I I'll outline the mini movie
in more detail, and that might start

348
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with be a brainstorming a list of
highlight which would be trouble list of seeing.

349
00:26:53.599 --> 00:26:56.359
I might actually, if I'm really
sort of up against it night,

350
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I'll sort of break the many movie
down into microvis which means, you know,

351
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these eight steps of structure that I
have are kind of the structure of

352
00:27:07.279 --> 00:27:10.960
everything. If you're going to work
on attention in fifteen in it, uh,

353
00:27:11.319 --> 00:27:15.240
the steps are going to be the
thing. If smaller, uh,

354
00:27:15.839 --> 00:27:18.559
then as if you're working not over
one hundred and twenty games right on,

355
00:27:18.680 --> 00:27:22.920
the ratio will be the thing.
So about you know, one quarter of

356
00:27:22.960 --> 00:27:26.440
the script will be you know,
the beginning, and then we'll reach the

357
00:27:26.559 --> 00:27:30.000
end of the beginning of that whole
of the day. True, because that's

358
00:27:30.319 --> 00:27:34.359
kind of the golden meaning or ratio
of the storytelling or drawing. So I

359
00:27:34.599 --> 00:27:40.759
might then outline further. But to
me, those eight turning points are key.

360
00:27:41.759 --> 00:27:45.680
Um. The analogy of the easing
resently is it's kind of like having

361
00:27:45.720 --> 00:27:51.799
a map quest for the Jersey you
go on on your screen plight. Uh.

362
00:27:52.200 --> 00:27:55.680
You know your your screen plays going
to have eight turning point. Maybe

363
00:27:55.720 --> 00:27:59.920
a map quest has eight turns.
Right, appen to live in San Diego

364
00:28:00.079 --> 00:28:03.000
County. If I'm driving up to
LA, I'm probably gonna go on the

365
00:28:03.119 --> 00:28:07.839
five, And depending on where I'm
gonna go in La, I'm asking to

366
00:28:07.839 --> 00:28:11.559
get off the five at some point. I kind of don't care, at

367
00:28:11.640 --> 00:28:15.359
least at the beginning and even on
most of the drive how long I'm on

368
00:28:15.480 --> 00:28:18.799
the five, if that's going to
be seventy miles or something like that,

369
00:28:19.359 --> 00:28:26.680
I care about that turn. Uh. You know my offering because I know

370
00:28:26.839 --> 00:28:30.759
I'm going there, and I know
that I can figure out the drive that's

371
00:28:30.759 --> 00:28:34.440
going to be kind of a straight
shot. Uh. Um, So I

372
00:28:36.119 --> 00:28:37.880
you know, and when whenever we
used to give directions, if you come

373
00:28:37.920 --> 00:28:42.240
from an age before math test,
it was always you know, uh,

374
00:28:42.680 --> 00:28:47.400
you keep going on this road and
take her right off. You know,

375
00:28:47.480 --> 00:28:49.720
we were very rarely mentioned how long
it's going to be might say a long

376
00:28:49.880 --> 00:28:53.359
time, right, uh, you
know, or going to be a a

377
00:28:53.519 --> 00:29:00.200
quick left. But you know,
the turn defined the shape and it's turn

378
00:29:00.400 --> 00:29:06.640
define the joke. And when I
have those, I really know the shape

379
00:29:06.960 --> 00:29:11.480
of my story. I can still
in the details h that along along the

380
00:29:11.599 --> 00:29:17.079
purple line of the blue line of
map quests or Google maps as I got.

381
00:29:18.519 --> 00:29:22.000
Now, do you have any exercises
once you have your outline and everything?

382
00:29:22.759 --> 00:29:26.680
Do you just rely upon the writing
process for creativity to come out?

383
00:29:27.039 --> 00:29:32.039
Do you have any tricks for kind
of like making putting yourself into a creative

384
00:29:32.119 --> 00:29:34.880
mode or is it just something that
comes out as you're writing. Well,

385
00:29:34.960 --> 00:29:40.759
you know one of my favorite closes
from Stravinsky and it and it is the

386
00:29:40.960 --> 00:29:45.000
news will only visit when she sees
you are hard at work. Um,

387
00:29:45.920 --> 00:29:55.519
and you know I working hard and
uh and uh and and doing the work.

388
00:29:56.000 --> 00:30:00.279
If you expect that bolt from the
blue to strike, we'll be right

389
00:30:00.359 --> 00:30:07.119
back after a word from our sponsor, and now back to the show.

390
00:30:10.799 --> 00:30:12.880
I think it will come sort of
when you're in the zone, or you'll

391
00:30:12.920 --> 00:30:18.480
cross over into the zone when you
are doing the hard work. But you

392
00:30:18.559 --> 00:30:25.039
know, the views is sickle,
and sometimes that hard work does not you

393
00:30:25.160 --> 00:30:30.759
know, cause or descend from heaven
and I think, you know, having

394
00:30:30.119 --> 00:30:37.960
a craft and having a series of
best practices and principles that you can reliably

395
00:30:37.000 --> 00:30:44.640
put into twenty is the core and
the very base of what is called professionals.

396
00:30:45.039 --> 00:30:49.079
You know the story is going to
be very good or you know,

397
00:30:49.480 --> 00:30:55.640
quite good, because you know these
principles and you have an aesthetic and you

398
00:30:55.759 --> 00:30:59.480
know what good it is, and
then you know the views only has to

399
00:30:59.519 --> 00:31:03.440
come and can do a little bit
to do crossover to great maybe. And

400
00:31:04.279 --> 00:31:08.279
and I think if you actually do
study the great movie, even if that

401
00:31:08.440 --> 00:31:14.839
writer did have that bolt from the
blue, uh, that that gave them

402
00:31:14.920 --> 00:31:19.000
that brilliant idea, and they they
weren't, you know, assiduously practicing the

403
00:31:19.119 --> 00:31:25.640
craft and you know, doing the
grut work that it takes to do that.

404
00:31:26.200 --> 00:31:30.759
After they have you can dissect it. And by and large, I

405
00:31:30.799 --> 00:31:37.960
think a lot more than people are
willing to admit in the arts dissected and

406
00:31:37.039 --> 00:31:41.119
see what makes it great and duplicate
it in your own work. And that's

407
00:31:41.359 --> 00:31:48.079
that's why I think movies and UH
and stories and television are getting better and

408
00:31:48.240 --> 00:31:56.000
better hum partially by the sheer volume
that we have, partially by the technology

409
00:31:56.079 --> 00:32:00.920
that allows us to generate more multiple
drafts, faster and easier. Uh and

410
00:32:01.480 --> 00:32:08.599
uh uh and just a better understanding
of what makes it good. There is

411
00:32:08.680 --> 00:32:12.680
you know, working against that all
of the fact that you know, once

412
00:32:12.839 --> 00:32:15.440
once a great story has been told, you can't really tell it exactly that

413
00:32:15.519 --> 00:32:19.599
way again there come up with a
really you know, reinvention, or let

414
00:32:19.680 --> 00:32:24.039
it be your inspiration for something else
that is also great, or you're hoping

415
00:32:24.400 --> 00:32:29.240
great but you know, as far
as that goes, as far as you

416
00:32:29.319 --> 00:32:31.720
know, but you know, kind
the creativity and being being in the zone.

417
00:32:34.119 --> 00:32:37.440
I think of myself as a craftsman
more than I do as an artist.

418
00:32:37.000 --> 00:32:43.200
And so to have them any movie
having in the end you really study

419
00:32:43.319 --> 00:32:49.480
this, uh is I hate to
say that's almost a way to mcguiger around

420
00:32:49.559 --> 00:32:54.720
about having to have h the views
strike. I don't want to say not

421
00:32:54.839 --> 00:32:59.680
even not having to have creativity,
because these are enough too. And both

422
00:33:00.200 --> 00:33:05.759
creativity that we study and the craft
that we you know, dedicate ourselves to,

423
00:33:06.640 --> 00:33:10.200
right. Uh So it is it
is creativity. I mean, there's

424
00:33:10.400 --> 00:33:15.319
and as far as that, you
know, the brainstorming that you know that

425
00:33:15.480 --> 00:33:17.079
you do, and you know,
just trying to get yourself you know,

426
00:33:17.160 --> 00:33:21.599
in a creative mode. I find
hard work is the best thing. But

427
00:33:22.000 --> 00:33:24.680
if I'm not doing that and I
want to like just get ideas and that

428
00:33:25.119 --> 00:33:30.680
you know you've probably heard that,
uh, that victim of you know,

429
00:33:30.400 --> 00:33:37.279
one one percent inspiration ninety nine percent
perspiration, right, Uh, having the

430
00:33:37.359 --> 00:33:40.000
craft and having the aesthentic and having
the you know, the best principles and

431
00:33:40.400 --> 00:33:45.640
a hard work ethic that all fifth
in the nine Uh. The one percent

432
00:33:45.759 --> 00:33:51.920
is that inspiration of the great idea, right, I think? And I've

433
00:33:52.480 --> 00:34:00.480
um and for that, I watch
a lot of movies. I read a

434
00:34:00.519 --> 00:34:02.400
lot of books. I do a
lot of reading. I try to keep

435
00:34:02.440 --> 00:34:07.640
myself stimulating. You know, I
a friend in a writing group, and

436
00:34:07.720 --> 00:34:10.280
I am you know, very intelligent
people that I try to keep in my

437
00:34:10.360 --> 00:34:16.679
life that really and provide stimulating conversation
with it. And in my own mentorship

438
00:34:16.760 --> 00:34:21.519
program scheamfill venture dot com. You
know, I work with you know,

439
00:34:22.519 --> 00:34:27.119
dozens of clients who are great writers
that I've always having a sigulating conversation,

440
00:34:27.239 --> 00:34:30.039
you know. And lafter you have
the one big idea, right that one

441
00:34:30.159 --> 00:34:36.400
percent of the process, you have
to have a million other little great ideas

442
00:34:36.440 --> 00:34:38.840
too, And so you have you
know other smaller one percent. You need

443
00:34:38.920 --> 00:34:44.360
be good idea screed this scene,
you know, which is inspiration as well,

444
00:34:44.400 --> 00:34:45.559
and the good idea for I do
this in the dam, the good

445
00:34:45.559 --> 00:34:50.840
idea for this plot twist, or
ideally the great idea for that puntwist.

446
00:34:50.880 --> 00:34:54.880
But nobody you've ever seen in this
wore. So you're continually challenging yourself that

447
00:34:54.960 --> 00:34:59.760
way. And you know, I
don't know in a way, I don't

448
00:34:59.760 --> 00:35:02.599
want to you mystify it, um, but I well, I do want

449
00:35:02.639 --> 00:35:07.400
to do asify I feel it.
I feel like that were that word creativity.

450
00:35:07.039 --> 00:35:10.079
Uh, you know, uh,
and waiting for the news to strike

451
00:35:10.880 --> 00:35:14.960
is sort of an ego trip.
A lot of writers and other people in

452
00:35:15.039 --> 00:35:22.000
the arts take that and they sort
of mystify it so that it can be

453
00:35:22.119 --> 00:35:27.960
a holy and religious experience for them. And uh, and they can,

454
00:35:28.079 --> 00:35:30.760
you know, maybe you put themselves
a little above other people who don't have

455
00:35:30.880 --> 00:35:37.280
it or don't get it right.
And you know, I would much rather

456
00:35:37.400 --> 00:35:39.760
say, uh, let's de mystify
it. You can't. You can do

457
00:35:39.880 --> 00:35:44.239
it, and you can find great
ideas of those screenplays if you just followed

458
00:35:44.280 --> 00:35:47.920
these steps. Um. And you
know, I you know who sold the

459
00:35:47.920 --> 00:35:52.519
screenplay. So it's your great million
dollars. It's not magic. I'm not

460
00:35:52.679 --> 00:35:57.079
better than you. You you can
learn the same things I learned. And

461
00:35:58.079 --> 00:36:01.480
uh and maybe not the screen places
were a million dollars. But right one

462
00:36:01.639 --> 00:36:08.960
is that is is good U or
better as one that did? Uh and

463
00:36:09.760 --> 00:36:16.159
uh and I you know far prefer
that uh to sort of the uh uh

464
00:36:17.960 --> 00:36:24.039
oh you know uh kind of you
know, a leanism that comes with uh,

465
00:36:24.559 --> 00:36:29.480
you know, creativity and uh,
you know what people call brilliant and

466
00:36:29.559 --> 00:36:32.800
inspiration. Um, you know,
God has shown to favor me with his

467
00:36:32.920 --> 00:36:37.960
brilliant idea. Therefore, uh,
you know, I'm I lord it all

468
00:36:38.159 --> 00:36:42.039
over all of you. He congratulates. You know, you had a good

469
00:36:42.039 --> 00:36:45.559
idea. You're gonna actually have about
you know, a million of those had

470
00:36:45.559 --> 00:36:50.239
a screenlight career, So get back
to work. Um. Do you feel

471
00:36:50.280 --> 00:36:52.239
like deals like that still exist?
I mean it seems like that's kind of

472
00:36:52.320 --> 00:36:57.159
like, I mean, even even
for the day, it was very uh,

473
00:36:58.440 --> 00:37:01.639
kind of you know, bizarre and
kind of unique in its own way.

474
00:37:01.719 --> 00:37:05.800
But it's like it seems like that
kind of thing, you know,

475
00:37:06.440 --> 00:37:09.079
doesn't that that world of filmmaking is
kind of a bygone era at this point.

476
00:37:10.400 --> 00:37:14.960
Unfortunately, uh, you know,
they do still exist, but they

477
00:37:15.039 --> 00:37:17.599
are you know, as you say, we're rare back then, and they

478
00:37:17.639 --> 00:37:22.280
are even more rare now. And
this has happened, you know, I

479
00:37:22.320 --> 00:37:24.480
think in my lifetime, in my
screenwriting career, if we you know,

480
00:37:24.559 --> 00:37:30.280
want to put our fingers on why, I would argue, you know that

481
00:37:30.400 --> 00:37:37.039
it's always uh, it's not even
really that uh. Uh. You know,

482
00:37:37.199 --> 00:37:40.000
a lot of specs got bought for
a lot of money and some of

483
00:37:40.079 --> 00:37:45.039
them turned out badly. Um.
Uh you know that's that's part of it.

484
00:37:45.840 --> 00:37:52.119
But the truth is a movie studio
just since I've been working, uh

485
00:37:52.320 --> 00:37:57.719
in Hollywood, have become more corporate. So uh, you know, twentieth

486
00:37:57.760 --> 00:38:04.000
century Fox became part of news Ports, right, and uh, Paramount became

487
00:38:04.119 --> 00:38:08.559
part of the uh Summer Lips and
Gigantic Muni and Colomberates. They all of

488
00:38:08.639 --> 00:38:15.960
the movies became used to be their
own corporations and sell their own stock uh

489
00:38:15.239 --> 00:38:21.159
and uh and have their own shareholders. And they got bigger and bigger and

490
00:38:21.639 --> 00:38:25.719
became you know, just a small
part from Baston Musician Golomberates, of which

491
00:38:25.760 --> 00:38:32.280
they're only you know, uh four
to six pound and uh and it is

492
00:38:32.480 --> 00:38:37.000
harder to justify to your shareholders that
you bought a screenplay for a million dollars

493
00:38:37.119 --> 00:38:43.280
and then went and lost one hundred
million dollars on the movie. Uh uh

494
00:38:43.400 --> 00:38:45.000
than it is to say we thought
it was going to work. It was

495
00:38:45.079 --> 00:38:51.800
by the writer of Harry Potter or
or you know or whatever whatever else that

496
00:38:52.239 --> 00:38:57.119
you know, it's been successful in
another media in the uh in a publishing

497
00:38:57.199 --> 00:39:01.320
company that are that are that arm
unicn Colomber own it's the best seller over

498
00:39:01.440 --> 00:39:07.480
here right so uh, you know, it's a video game that our company

499
00:39:07.599 --> 00:39:10.639
also owns. It is based on
a song that the music branch of our

500
00:39:12.079 --> 00:39:15.760
of our backs municking Lombards. The
studio is a small piece. Oh so

501
00:39:15.920 --> 00:39:22.159
that synergy Uh it is you know, kind of what has has replaced in

502
00:39:22.280 --> 00:39:28.679
the the odd Specs sale and the
journeyman screenwriter who kind of wins the lottery.

503
00:39:29.400 --> 00:39:32.360
Um. So, what advice would
you have for screenwriters to you know,

504
00:39:32.559 --> 00:39:37.960
how to get their screenplays read and
how to get you know, how

505
00:39:37.000 --> 00:39:42.559
to try to have a career as
a screenwriter. Sure, I think that

506
00:39:42.880 --> 00:39:46.480
you know you you want to write
those baby scripts, speck screenplays and you

507
00:39:46.559 --> 00:39:52.760
want to play that lottery. Uh, while at the same time you have

508
00:39:52.039 --> 00:39:58.360
other works in your portfolio. We'll
be right back after a word from our

509
00:39:58.400 --> 00:40:07.400
sponsor, and now back to the
show that are smaller budgets, and we'll

510
00:40:08.119 --> 00:40:16.480
uh go to uh to smaller conglomerates
or you know, outsits that aren't conglomerates

511
00:40:16.559 --> 00:40:21.239
but are still profitable. So what
do I mean, Well, you know,

512
00:40:21.719 --> 00:40:27.239
I think it might be worth everybody
to uh take a look at a

513
00:40:27.280 --> 00:40:30.880
book called The long Tail, right. So, uh, it's sort of

514
00:40:30.880 --> 00:40:35.440
about how the market is shifting.
And the long tail refers to the you

515
00:40:35.480 --> 00:40:37.719
know, the tail at the end
of a bell curve on a graph about

516
00:40:38.039 --> 00:40:42.920
who's making the money in a business. Right. Um. So as that

517
00:40:43.400 --> 00:40:46.519
graph, you know, swelled up
high and we see there's paramounts of Disney

518
00:40:46.639 --> 00:40:54.119
and Universal making billions of dollars in
the entertainment thing. Uh and as they

519
00:40:54.159 --> 00:41:00.840
have become more corporatized. H And
and aren't you know one hundred million dollars

520
00:41:00.920 --> 00:41:04.880
used to be a blockbuster, right
and a studio kind of only wants to

521
00:41:04.920 --> 00:41:08.400
make a movie these days that they
think the upside of three hundred million dollars

522
00:41:08.440 --> 00:41:15.400
and that still next to click after
every million part. And as they've moved

523
00:41:15.519 --> 00:41:22.239
out of the movies that nearly make
a hundred million dollars, that has left

524
00:41:22.400 --> 00:41:29.760
room for us on the long tail
to make movies and go to entities with

525
00:41:29.880 --> 00:41:36.079
our screenplay that that might be making
movies will ten to forty million dollars that

526
00:41:37.119 --> 00:41:42.440
that are only going to make a
hundred millions. And the opportunities there where

527
00:41:42.559 --> 00:41:49.760
hedge funds are stepping in and other
you know, conglomerates are stepping in with

528
00:41:50.199 --> 00:41:53.960
you know, cash liquidity, where
the studios to abandon it and smaller conglomerates

529
00:41:54.000 --> 00:41:59.079
can move in. That's where your
opportunities are. They a little harder to

530
00:41:59.159 --> 00:42:01.760
find. They are are you have
to do a little more work, be

531
00:42:01.800 --> 00:42:07.760
a little better connected. You probably
are on the very far end of that

532
00:42:07.960 --> 00:42:13.039
same long tail. Uh is you
know, uh, your friends who all

533
00:42:13.079 --> 00:42:17.719
want to make a movie for ten
thousand dollars uh and uh and these are

534
00:42:17.800 --> 00:42:22.679
converstrates you can write and fund yourself
and in between our you know, every

535
00:42:23.000 --> 00:42:28.199
every number of budgets from you know, ten thousand dollars, which I could

536
00:42:28.239 --> 00:42:31.159
have picked the lowest you can make
a movie forward is probably not not the

537
00:42:31.239 --> 00:42:38.519
lioness between uh, um, everything
between ten thousand and uh forty million and

538
00:42:39.039 --> 00:42:45.159
uh and between the forty million and
what the studios maker dose for uh.

539
00:42:45.280 --> 00:42:50.800
You know there there's room as well. So there are other entity defining stepping

540
00:42:50.920 --> 00:42:59.320
in the profitable area uh that uh, that the larger studios have abandoned.

541
00:42:59.719 --> 00:43:04.639
Now are you going to sell a
screenplay four million dollars uh to any of

542
00:43:04.679 --> 00:43:10.679
those empties that will be rare at
first? And I am thinking, you

543
00:43:10.760 --> 00:43:15.920
know, might come back again.
Um and but you know, could you

544
00:43:16.039 --> 00:43:21.599
make you know many more million dollars
of dollars if you are a producer on

545
00:43:21.719 --> 00:43:28.519
such a movie and you raise the
funding for a movie uh and our profit

546
00:43:28.599 --> 00:43:34.199
participants in a screenplay you also work
but hypenated you know, uh and became

547
00:43:34.199 --> 00:43:38.280
a letter producer on That's what I
am attempting to do. Now that's where

548
00:43:38.320 --> 00:43:42.400
I think, you know, my
next million dollars is and I hope my

549
00:43:42.480 --> 00:43:45.840
next tens of millions of dollars are
and a higher level of creative control and

550
00:43:46.039 --> 00:43:52.239
for the film as well. So
UM, and I'll say this, uh,

551
00:43:54.559 --> 00:43:58.639
I you know, spent many cares
the writer and of course had that

552
00:43:58.880 --> 00:44:02.199
first lesson success clearly on. That
was very exciting and caused me to write

553
00:44:02.239 --> 00:44:06.920
you in that genre and at that
budget range here for our next ten students.

554
00:44:06.960 --> 00:44:13.719
Like I'm now as excited by the
creativity it takes to get the movie

555
00:44:13.760 --> 00:44:17.400
funds have been made as I once
was by the new creative challenge a little

556
00:44:17.480 --> 00:44:22.079
more traditionally called the creative challenge of
actually writing the scripts and deciding the events

557
00:44:22.159 --> 00:44:28.119
that they take place in it.
Um, finding the funding for a movie,

558
00:44:28.719 --> 00:44:30.719
uh, you know, building or
following you know, as I have

559
00:44:31.000 --> 00:44:37.119
amongst writers and people who want a
partner and making with me has been you

560
00:44:37.199 --> 00:44:40.039
know, a very h one have
that breakthrough to realize these could be the

561
00:44:40.119 --> 00:44:47.400
same thing. These are just all
just challenges that have that are begging creative

562
00:44:47.480 --> 00:44:52.280
solution. Once I realized that it
was the same thing, I can get

563
00:44:52.360 --> 00:44:57.920
as excited about seeking funding person as
I can for the original idea for the

564
00:44:58.119 --> 00:45:04.119
sh You know, the former is
just a little more how should I say,

565
00:45:04.559 --> 00:45:07.079
out of my hands than the other
view. Of course, I just

566
00:45:07.280 --> 00:45:13.320
have millions of dollars at my own
disposing. Yet, now, how do

567
00:45:13.440 --> 00:45:19.079
you how do you feel about places
like ink tip and the Blacklist? And

568
00:45:19.280 --> 00:45:22.639
what do you have a resource that
you use, for example, if you

569
00:45:22.360 --> 00:45:27.159
have a screenplay that you want to
get out or is it just a question

570
00:45:27.239 --> 00:45:30.079
of trying to get it in the
right producer's hands. I mean talking about

571
00:45:30.079 --> 00:45:35.159
strictly working as a writer. I
certainly working as a writer. UM,

572
00:45:36.639 --> 00:45:40.719
I recommend all of those sources.
I have gotten a lot of work myself

573
00:45:40.800 --> 00:45:46.320
through a tip, including the movie
that was made that I appeared in m

574
00:45:46.880 --> 00:45:52.719
and I my own experience within tip
is I got a lot of work on

575
00:45:52.840 --> 00:45:58.519
it. I don't know that I
actually listed my own scripts on because I've

576
00:45:58.519 --> 00:46:01.559
always had an agency manager is uh
since since that first Big Spects sale,

577
00:46:02.280 --> 00:46:06.840
Uh to get script to uh,
to get my scripts read. Um.

578
00:46:07.280 --> 00:46:10.920
I I do hear lots from great
stuff abouts of resources. I had a

579
00:46:10.960 --> 00:46:15.480
movie made that I wrote an assignment
from from the Antent news letter. Uh,

580
00:46:15.639 --> 00:46:21.079
you know my second produced credit after
Firestorm and UH. And I know

581
00:46:21.320 --> 00:46:24.599
a lot of people who have had
their their script picked up in an addicial

582
00:46:24.639 --> 00:46:31.679
way the Blacklist. You know you
were on on the playing field. My

583
00:46:31.840 --> 00:46:37.400
guess is become something very good sort
with that brand and being sort of recognized

584
00:46:37.480 --> 00:46:44.320
as quality. I think it should
do well. I'm a little less h

585
00:46:44.679 --> 00:46:49.119
familiar with their business mome Um,
I actually know people in extipency to them

586
00:46:49.199 --> 00:46:52.440
regularly, but haven't been the case
with the blacklist as yes, so,

587
00:46:53.280 --> 00:46:57.679
but I recommend all of those resources, you know, always saying, you

588
00:46:57.760 --> 00:47:00.960
know, copy copy, ACTEMP tour, But you know, I am one

589
00:47:00.000 --> 00:47:04.960
of those resources myself. I'm much
more about the craft of the screen light.

590
00:47:05.480 --> 00:47:07.800
I am like the marketing. But
certainly if you uh, you know,

591
00:47:07.960 --> 00:47:12.280
register the meter, screenplay mentor dot
com, I'm going to advise you

592
00:47:12.360 --> 00:47:15.400
in the marketing. They help you
practically query uh and coach pitching as well

593
00:47:15.440 --> 00:47:22.679
on the values sold multiple pitches myself. So I think these resources are a

594
00:47:22.880 --> 00:47:27.199
great idea. I'm you know,
I'm a piece of that uh. But

595
00:47:27.519 --> 00:47:30.679
like anything else, they're they're a
good one and they're a bad one,

596
00:47:30.920 --> 00:47:34.280
and you know, the bad one
for you may be the great one for

597
00:47:34.400 --> 00:47:37.880
me. Uh And so at all
I think, you know, kind of

598
00:47:37.920 --> 00:47:40.239
defense. And I regard all these
people you know as my colleagues and not

599
00:47:40.360 --> 00:47:44.800
my competition, but we're all part
of, you know, the same machine

600
00:47:45.360 --> 00:47:51.119
that is trying to get you know, movies made and right and dot writers

601
00:47:51.199 --> 00:47:55.519
to own their craft and to get
their work seen and and make movies and

602
00:47:55.840 --> 00:48:05.000
television and novel than any other media
better bell, you know, as well

603
00:48:05.039 --> 00:48:07.840
as being a writer of fiction myself. You know, I'm creating you know,

604
00:48:08.000 --> 00:48:13.079
non fiction book about book about the
craft of writing, and other nonfiction

605
00:48:13.159 --> 00:48:17.840
materials about the craft of writing all
the time, and to make the art

606
00:48:17.880 --> 00:48:21.719
better. And I would even like
the art of creating those books. And

607
00:48:22.199 --> 00:48:24.400
you know, I would like there'd
be better books on screenwriting and sort of

608
00:48:24.440 --> 00:48:29.320
structure. And that's why you know, contribute those. I obviously think that

609
00:48:29.480 --> 00:48:32.480
there's a better method than it would
sort of be a dominant paradigm out there.

610
00:48:32.679 --> 00:48:38.440
And that is my message in Natalie. Okay, well what do you

611
00:48:38.480 --> 00:48:42.760
think about, for example, like
save the Cat and that kind of thing.

612
00:48:44.559 --> 00:48:47.480
You know, I knew Blake and
uh and he was a colleague and

613
00:48:47.760 --> 00:48:52.800
we sort of emerged on the market
at the same time and kind of from

614
00:48:52.840 --> 00:48:54.199
the same kneed, you know,
which is to say, you know,

615
00:48:54.280 --> 00:49:01.960
the three act structure is not um
sufficient to our tast You're gonna you're gonna

616
00:49:01.960 --> 00:49:09.320
fall apart and act to the and
uh Blake uh um. So I like

617
00:49:09.440 --> 00:49:13.679
Safercat, I mean, I really
like anything that makes it easier. And

618
00:49:14.320 --> 00:49:20.480
you know, I I recommend kind
of everybody and all of my colleagues as

619
00:49:20.519 --> 00:49:24.199
I say to uh, you know, to too my students and say,

620
00:49:24.280 --> 00:49:28.719
you know, or to anybody who
acts writer, and you know, you're

621
00:49:28.760 --> 00:49:32.280
going to read all of these books
eventually along coups or writers just likely gonna

622
00:49:32.280 --> 00:49:37.000
have to have millions ideas and you
don't know what book is going to give

623
00:49:37.039 --> 00:49:40.639
you the idea for a new movie, or you don't know what book is

624
00:49:40.679 --> 00:49:45.519
going to which book is going to
get solved the problem, Uh that you're

625
00:49:45.559 --> 00:49:50.719
having the screen slight. So when
I have a hot project, I'm working

626
00:49:50.840 --> 00:49:54.840
the screen slight. I usually have
a bactmnly good research in books. I

627
00:49:54.880 --> 00:49:59.360
would always have, you know,
a stack of books that my research for

628
00:49:59.440 --> 00:50:07.599
the project. We'll be right back
after a word from our sponsor, and

629
00:50:07.760 --> 00:50:14.639
now back to the show and the
latest screenwriting book there. So I would

630
00:50:14.679 --> 00:50:17.960
be you know, uh, I
might do my research in the morning and

631
00:50:19.119 --> 00:50:22.480
then my writing in the year during
the day, and then uh, you

632
00:50:22.559 --> 00:50:24.360
know, read a little bit about
the craft. But I've just been practicing

633
00:50:24.480 --> 00:50:28.639
all day, uh, you know, before I get to bed that night,

634
00:50:29.079 --> 00:50:34.119
and you know, I could you
know, point to Uh, to

635
00:50:34.360 --> 00:50:37.880
most of the books I've bet on
screenwriting and say, oh, well,

636
00:50:37.960 --> 00:50:43.119
this thing that I always do that
came from that book. And uh,

637
00:50:43.280 --> 00:50:45.960
this thing that I always say to
my students or you know, one of

638
00:50:46.000 --> 00:50:52.280
my mentorship clients, that came from
that screenwriting book. And I always say

639
00:50:52.320 --> 00:50:53.679
it for my version of it.
If I say their versions, I say

640
00:50:53.679 --> 00:50:59.039
you should go look at while of
the Keys book, rap of the Keys

641
00:50:59.079 --> 00:51:01.719
Book. I actually thing that can
actually close the page number on which is

642
00:51:04.079 --> 00:51:07.599
uh, you know John Truty.
I think that's a lot of great and

643
00:51:07.719 --> 00:51:14.079
very original stuff. Uh. And
save the cat as well. Um,

644
00:51:15.280 --> 00:51:16.760
some of my students who you know, as I said Lake I act to

645
00:51:16.800 --> 00:51:20.679
have lived at the same time and
some of my students who read our books

646
00:51:20.760 --> 00:51:22.880
both around the same time. I
feel like a student. You sent me

647
00:51:23.320 --> 00:51:29.119
a spreadsheet that lays Blake Snyder structure. Over month, we've heard me say

648
00:51:29.880 --> 00:51:31.559
of you know, the three act
structure. You know, two of my

649
00:51:31.679 --> 00:51:36.039
plot lens are the end of BacT
to one and Act two. It's it's

650
00:51:36.119 --> 00:51:39.599
the same thing. I don't say, don't use the three act structure.

651
00:51:39.639 --> 00:51:44.360
I say use that and of it. And likewise I would say, you

652
00:51:44.480 --> 00:51:50.280
know, if you know, Blake
structure, use that and mine if you

653
00:51:50.400 --> 00:51:54.599
know John Truty's twenty two steps,
uh, you know, figure out where

654
00:51:54.719 --> 00:52:00.280
those are going to go as well. Uh. And you know if something

655
00:52:00.360 --> 00:52:05.519
from the key is helping you out
lay that into your story as well.

656
00:52:06.119 --> 00:52:09.159
Uh. I sort of feel like, you know, you study all of

657
00:52:09.239 --> 00:52:13.599
this and you synthathize it, you
know, maybe into your own method.

658
00:52:13.920 --> 00:52:19.159
Uh. And and maybe you can
write a book as well. Uh and

659
00:52:19.639 --> 00:52:24.440
and contribute something to the dialogue about
what makes good good screenwriting and what makes

660
00:52:24.719 --> 00:52:29.679
good movies. So I I quite
like, like if there's if there's one

661
00:52:29.760 --> 00:52:31.800
thing that I kind of envy with
him, At least for the first couple

662
00:52:31.800 --> 00:52:34.920
of years when I was teaching,
I always there was a lot of the

663
00:52:35.000 --> 00:52:38.639
fact that I would be USC glad
wherever I departed from what I had learned

664
00:52:38.679 --> 00:52:43.480
to USC and said something that was
just my own theory. I would make

665
00:52:43.519 --> 00:52:45.400
a big point of saying, so
like, maybe this is crazy, but

666
00:52:45.559 --> 00:52:51.960
I think and Blake just you know, went crazy and gave all of his

667
00:52:52.119 --> 00:52:59.719
blockquens, blacky backroom names that people
still use them, right, and maybe

668
00:53:00.199 --> 00:53:04.039
part of the language. And no
one's very flattering to me when someone says,

669
00:53:04.440 --> 00:53:06.800
oh, yes, it's in the
three, particularly when it's someone I've

670
00:53:06.840 --> 00:53:10.360
never been right. I you know, I always felt like it reaching the

671
00:53:10.400 --> 00:53:13.519
first couple of years. You know, if you if you use the term

672
00:53:13.599 --> 00:53:16.639
mini movie method, you've just had
a conversation with me quite recently. Well,

673
00:53:16.679 --> 00:53:22.159
you've just read my book and now
you know I will I'm putting myself

674
00:53:22.199 --> 00:53:23.920
out there a little more. I
could email from someone I could you know,

675
00:53:23.960 --> 00:53:28.320
picked up putting one of the folks
on Amazon and say, uh,

676
00:53:28.400 --> 00:53:30.159
you have been using the mini we
method two years and I've never met them

677
00:53:30.199 --> 00:53:36.639
and never never heard of uh and
uh and you and I've had some conversations

678
00:53:36.679 --> 00:53:39.400
because said, oh, yes,
I always used this method. And you

679
00:53:39.480 --> 00:53:44.239
know they're in Australia or they're in
Canada and somewhere else the far reaching to

680
00:53:44.360 --> 00:53:47.440
the English speaking world, and you
know, and I've never heard of them.

681
00:53:47.519 --> 00:53:52.159
Then we have never spoken that work
and we've never spoken their met very

682
00:53:52.400 --> 00:53:54.639
no, we've never had uh.
And you know, when you put yourself

683
00:53:54.679 --> 00:53:59.679
out there and start to reach that
far uh, you know, it's it's

684
00:53:59.760 --> 00:54:01.880
very patterning. I feel like,
yeah, I actually am I change of

685
00:54:01.920 --> 00:54:07.840
the world a little bit for the
better. Well do you. Um.

686
00:54:07.719 --> 00:54:14.480
One thing I want to talk about
a little more is uh going into the

687
00:54:14.599 --> 00:54:19.400
movie method, the mini movie method. Um. One of the things that

688
00:54:19.440 --> 00:54:22.840
I wanted to talk to that we
didn't talk about was the concept of creating

689
00:54:22.960 --> 00:54:28.159
tension. And I wanted to get
your opinion on how you create tension in

690
00:54:28.239 --> 00:54:31.920
each of the mini movies. Okay, absolutely, um, and this is

691
00:54:32.039 --> 00:54:35.559
this is my ANSWER's favorite talk.
I probably should lead with it. I

692
00:54:35.639 --> 00:54:40.159
hope that was to the podcast.
Um. You know, I actually would

693
00:54:40.239 --> 00:54:45.639
say, you know, you've hit
upon what I think is the most important

694
00:54:45.639 --> 00:54:49.079
thing I teach. What I what
I get complimented on the most is oh,

695
00:54:49.239 --> 00:54:52.280
this jets beat through the second act. That's nothing else right now?

696
00:54:52.880 --> 00:54:55.440
Now, it's you know, four
little fifteen page Steffs, I never know

697
00:54:55.639 --> 00:55:00.440
the difteen page of the way on
from the major attorney for it. And

698
00:55:00.880 --> 00:55:05.199
that's so much better than the sixty
pages away right, um, department.

699
00:55:05.880 --> 00:55:13.519
Uh so what is a tension?
Okay, attension is going to defined by

700
00:55:14.400 --> 00:55:16.559
I'll even back this up a little
more and I will I will say that

701
00:55:16.840 --> 00:55:22.400
I believe Stinging toward his right book
the Pleasure Principle, when he said that

702
00:55:23.360 --> 00:55:30.239
all pleasure is as the least of
attension. So pleasure comes from tension reduction.

703
00:55:30.440 --> 00:55:35.239
If you get a massage and they're
loving your shoulder something to say,

704
00:55:35.239 --> 00:55:39.320
a tense that feels good? Why
because the attension is being relieved. Uh.

705
00:55:39.800 --> 00:55:44.400
If you take a nap, you
know you've go's intension. If you're

706
00:55:44.679 --> 00:55:50.079
tired and cranky, Uh, that's
you're leaving that sative of exhaustion. Uh.

707
00:55:50.199 --> 00:55:52.480
These are Ford's example coming up here. If you go to the bathroom,

708
00:55:53.079 --> 00:55:57.239
that relieves at tension of a full
bladder. About of course, you

709
00:55:57.320 --> 00:55:59.480
know, the physical act of love
is a build up, and to build

710
00:55:59.519 --> 00:56:02.239
up and a field up in the
release of sexual attension. Right, So

711
00:56:04.920 --> 00:56:10.559
if we like anything, it means
it's reducing attention in it. If we

712
00:56:10.840 --> 00:56:17.760
like a story, that means it
is releasing attension. So you've heard this

713
00:56:17.880 --> 00:56:22.159
phrase ramatic tension. Maybe you even
know how important it is. Right,

714
00:56:22.280 --> 00:56:25.760
It's the source of all pleasure we
take in drama, not the tension,

715
00:56:27.119 --> 00:56:32.559
but the release of it. So
a story is going to build and build

716
00:56:32.599 --> 00:56:38.800
and build and build dramatic tension and
then release it in a surprising and gratifying

717
00:56:39.119 --> 00:56:45.000
way. So how do we build
up pottension in any Okay, here it

718
00:56:45.199 --> 00:56:47.880
is. Here's my magic formula for
at tension. If you ask me,

719
00:56:49.119 --> 00:56:52.280
this is the E equals mc squaredest
story. This is the equation I we

720
00:56:52.360 --> 00:57:02.320
shall all relies. Tension equals hope
versus. In every movie, there's something

721
00:57:02.360 --> 00:57:07.079
we're hoping for. You probably hurt
us hear maybe you heard was called a

722
00:57:07.199 --> 00:57:10.559
rooting interest. We're rooting for the
hero. And what does that mean.

723
00:57:10.719 --> 00:57:15.480
We're rooting for him to get what
he wants, probably which might just be

724
00:57:15.639 --> 00:57:20.679
escaping our monsters trying to kill him, which might mean the heart of the

725
00:57:20.760 --> 00:57:25.559
fair Maiden, which might mean,
not to be sexist about it, the

726
00:57:25.679 --> 00:57:32.800
heart of that hunky man. Okay, So whatever they want, we're generally

727
00:57:32.960 --> 00:57:37.639
rooting for them to get it,
and we hope they will. We fear

728
00:57:38.360 --> 00:57:45.000
not just that they won't, but
that they will suffer great consequence in the

729
00:57:45.079 --> 00:57:51.400
attempt of getting so innovated the Lost
Art. We really hope that Indiana Joe

730
00:57:52.119 --> 00:57:54.639
gets to the Lost Art. We
really fear that he shall die in his

731
00:57:54.760 --> 00:58:00.880
attempt to get and worse yet,
if the knock will have it and they

732
00:58:00.920 --> 00:58:07.000
will become an undistoppable armit right,
So note the stakes that are attached that

733
00:58:07.079 --> 00:58:10.639
help him here. Well, that's
the hope of fear of the entire movie.

734
00:58:10.719 --> 00:58:15.400
That's that's what I would call the
main attention of rated the Lost arc.

735
00:58:15.559 --> 00:58:22.960
Right. Likewise, each minie has
at tension on which that relies.

736
00:58:23.719 --> 00:58:28.280
So at the end of the minu
we won when the CIA if we dolss

737
00:58:28.360 --> 00:58:34.039
back then coming to Indian says we
need your help. We found this the

738
00:58:34.159 --> 00:58:38.239
word staff of Raw in the telegram. Indie say the headpiece and the staff

739
00:58:38.239 --> 00:58:42.920
of Braw. You take it into
the maturum of Tannis in Tanis at a

740
00:58:42.960 --> 00:58:45.880
certain time of the day. It
shows your location of the will of the

741
00:58:45.960 --> 00:58:50.239
souls. Well, he is that
line of dialogue just the way Paul Newman

742
00:58:50.800 --> 00:58:53.559
does, and the sting lays out
the tension of the next three new movie.

743
00:58:55.320 --> 00:59:00.320
The next mini movie is about him
getting the headpiece and the staff rock.

744
00:59:00.760 --> 00:59:04.280
We hope that he can be fear, that he shall buy in the

745
00:59:04.320 --> 00:59:07.400
attempt and the Nazis will get it
so he gets a successful either. One

746
00:59:07.440 --> 00:59:12.199
after that is all about getting into
the map room un detective and finding the

747
00:59:12.280 --> 00:59:15.199
level of the souls, and the
one after that is about getting to the

748
00:59:15.280 --> 00:59:19.480
role of dissolier then getting the arc
right. But if any of one of

749
00:59:19.519 --> 00:59:22.599
these goes wrong, we're hoping in
the triumph in each mine. If any

750
00:59:22.639 --> 00:59:25.400
of them goes wrong, but the
nazis going to have the arc and rule

751
00:59:25.480 --> 00:59:35.239
the world. So hope and fear
is your technique and it is your sure

752
00:59:35.320 --> 00:59:40.280
fire way to build trension in a
movie. In a mini movie, I'll

753
00:59:40.320 --> 00:59:45.159
go, I'll go further that in
a scene or in any interchange of dialogue

754
00:59:45.280 --> 00:59:51.239
or beat of action, with anything, every little beat of action or every

755
00:59:51.320 --> 00:59:58.320
line, if somebody says, must
move the needle on the tension leader,

756
01:00:00.000 --> 01:00:06.920
we'll be right back after a word
from our sponsor. And now back to

757
01:00:07.000 --> 01:00:10.880
the show. And it's going to
swing it from hope to fear, or

758
01:00:12.119 --> 01:00:16.480
fear to hope, or hope to
fonder hope or fear to even the worst

759
01:00:16.760 --> 01:00:22.639
fear. And if it's not doing
that, then that scene, that mini

760
01:00:22.719 --> 01:00:31.440
movie, or worse yet, that
movie is static and doesn't have attention and

761
01:00:31.679 --> 01:00:37.679
is going to be boring. And
that is the worst client you can commit.

762
01:00:37.760 --> 01:00:42.719
As they story each other on a
filmmaker, am I right to be

763
01:00:43.280 --> 01:00:45.559
boring? So so do you go
back and like check out a scene and

764
01:00:45.679 --> 01:00:50.400
say, Okay, this scene is
it's kind of like it's okay, but

765
01:00:50.519 --> 01:00:52.719
I want to add a little more
conflict to it. I want to add

766
01:00:52.800 --> 01:00:58.000
just a little more spice. Absolutely, yes, I do that all the

767
01:00:58.039 --> 01:01:00.360
time. And what is that that's
really running? Polishing? I mean,

768
01:01:00.400 --> 01:01:04.840
I think you know when you say
you're rerunning that maybe kind of vague,

769
01:01:05.079 --> 01:01:08.119
but uh, this is by and
large what you're doing, or at least

770
01:01:08.159 --> 01:01:10.800
you know in this phase when you're
right. So of course I'll go with

771
01:01:10.920 --> 01:01:16.199
you and say, okay, well
what else uh here will uh will make

772
01:01:16.320 --> 01:01:21.760
will make this tension really top?
Uh? You know, this line makes

773
01:01:21.800 --> 01:01:25.199
me, gives me a little hope, you know, but the next line

774
01:01:27.199 --> 01:01:30.760
is going or or feed of fear
of action is making me fear it?

775
01:01:30.840 --> 01:01:34.559
But how could it give me even
more fear? What could make it look

776
01:01:34.599 --> 01:01:37.880
like the outcome is even worse?
Because we watch the story, or read

777
01:01:37.880 --> 01:01:42.639
a story, or go through our
daily lives, we are constantly trying to

778
01:01:42.719 --> 01:01:49.039
forget the future, right, and
we're constantly trying to get evidence. Cheo

779
01:01:49.079 --> 01:01:52.880
Copy talks about this and talks about
how that's an adaptive behavior, right?

780
01:01:52.280 --> 01:01:55.880
How why would that evolve? Right? Because the people condict the future of

781
01:01:55.920 --> 01:02:00.800
the best are going to survive better, uh, and are going to you

782
01:02:00.840 --> 01:02:04.920
know, carry their genes for this
generation and are you know, going to

783
01:02:04.960 --> 01:02:07.360
get all the food and they're they're
going to do very well. Right.

784
01:02:07.880 --> 01:02:14.719
So so that adaptive behavior helps us
out of and that's why stories to light

785
01:02:14.840 --> 01:02:20.119
us because uh, they variously stool
us and get us caught into that a

786
01:02:20.159 --> 01:02:22.679
lot kind of happy national, happy, xtional happy and act right. So

787
01:02:23.559 --> 01:02:28.079
if if I give you an event
that seems to point towards a very dire

788
01:02:28.119 --> 01:02:32.239
outcome, a fear right, uh, and then I give you anotheryone that

789
01:02:32.320 --> 01:02:36.840
makes it even more to the thing
that is surely going to happen, and

790
01:02:37.000 --> 01:02:39.119
then I spring a surprise because guess
what it happened. But it was ten

791
01:02:39.239 --> 01:02:45.360
times worse than you thought. And
I'm exceeding your worst spears at every term.

792
01:02:45.840 --> 01:02:50.480
Right, So that's constable what I'm
asking myself, what would raise to

793
01:02:50.559 --> 01:02:52.159
take of this, what would make
this deep worse? That's a very good

794
01:02:52.239 --> 01:02:59.719
vanda or a or a focker hope. But you know the way the way

795
01:03:00.000 --> 01:03:02.199
the drama structure that's golden in the
drama that you know, three quarters of

796
01:03:02.280 --> 01:03:07.920
the of the drama will be the
story will be convincing as very that stuffing

797
01:03:07.960 --> 01:03:12.480
that happen, right, and that
right stepping in usually the happy ending,

798
01:03:12.519 --> 01:03:15.960
stepping into the day to day about
three quarters the way through, or maybe

799
01:03:15.000 --> 01:03:22.360
it's the very last one. Now, talking about sorry, creating conflict,

800
01:03:23.519 --> 01:03:29.079
I assume that this means what you're
saying is, once you at the very

801
01:03:29.159 --> 01:03:36.519
beginning, you need to establish what
it is your protagonist wants, and therefore

802
01:03:37.159 --> 01:03:42.400
that's going to be something that drives
you through the entire story. Is abolutely

803
01:03:42.920 --> 01:03:45.840
yeah, okay, right, And
that that's a tension as well, right

804
01:03:45.880 --> 01:03:49.719
in their desire line, you know, creates that at tension. Um.

805
01:03:50.920 --> 01:03:53.639
You know, I said, we're
rooting for them to get what they want,

806
01:03:53.880 --> 01:03:58.920
right, So there's our hope that
they will, our fear that they

807
01:03:58.960 --> 01:04:04.199
will suffer great, great consequence in
the attempts, right, they'll fail and

808
01:04:04.400 --> 01:04:10.400
be destroyed in some way by it. Uh So uh and this this applies

809
01:04:10.480 --> 01:04:12.960
by the way, I mean,
I'm using these broad terms that you know,

810
01:04:13.079 --> 01:04:17.119
destroyed by it? Uh and you
I right, Actually ventures so people

811
01:04:17.199 --> 01:04:19.199
kind of think, oh, well, this is the only way you apply

812
01:04:20.000 --> 01:04:25.280
in that genre, but absolutely not. It's you know, Uh, if

813
01:04:25.360 --> 01:04:28.360
we say their heart is broken,
then it applies to a love story.

814
01:04:28.360 --> 01:04:30.719
If that is, if we define
their destruction is that their heart is broken,

815
01:04:30.800 --> 01:04:35.400
they shall never love again because the
one person they could love that they

816
01:04:35.440 --> 01:04:40.920
would ever meet here on this entire
planet has married another. Well, there's

817
01:04:41.000 --> 01:04:45.400
your love story. There's the stakes
of you know, of many a romantic

818
01:04:45.480 --> 01:04:50.239
comedy. And you know, if
you don't overliteralize me, if you sort

819
01:04:50.280 --> 01:04:56.280
of you know here, either literally
or symbolically, at the end of these

820
01:04:56.360 --> 01:05:00.199
things, I'm saying, you will
realize they apply to every single story you're

821
01:05:00.199 --> 01:05:03.719
ever going to write. And yes, you know, Um, I talk

822
01:05:03.800 --> 01:05:12.800
about this structurally, and I kind
of see everything as structure because that characters

823
01:05:12.920 --> 01:05:16.880
want is really our hope. If
you want something, you hope you get

824
01:05:16.920 --> 01:05:21.400
it right. Uh, it's the
same thing. Uh. You know,

825
01:05:21.440 --> 01:05:25.480
the sort of two verbs can use
almost interchanges. But I think if you

826
01:05:25.599 --> 01:05:30.840
look in the dictionary under hope,
you see want or desire as a synonym

827
01:05:31.199 --> 01:05:35.719
and vice versa. Right, So, uh, they're they're used interchange lens.

828
01:05:35.760 --> 01:05:40.199
So far as we talk about character, I think we should be called

829
01:05:40.559 --> 01:05:45.400
human wantings rather than human beings.
That defines a character and a person so

830
01:05:46.000 --> 01:05:48.480
much. If you say, you
know, you and I are talking about

831
01:05:48.639 --> 01:05:53.480
a third party friend of ours and
I say, what's he about? I

832
01:05:53.559 --> 01:05:56.280
think you're usually going to answer that
you know what he's trying to do in

833
01:05:56.360 --> 01:06:01.639
his life and what he wants.
UM. So that does define character for

834
01:06:01.760 --> 01:06:05.880
us, and that's where character and
the story are so inextricably bound. Off

835
01:06:05.920 --> 01:06:12.840
the point, Now, how does
that relate to creating a log line?

836
01:06:14.719 --> 01:06:19.880
Okay? Uh? You know,
generally, uh, I think a long

837
01:06:19.960 --> 01:06:24.480
line. This is not the template
life specifically used, but I can give

838
01:06:24.519 --> 01:06:28.519
you my own template for log lines, you know, the defining aspect of

839
01:06:29.480 --> 01:06:33.400
the movie. Maybe not the sect
pitch, but uh. Generally, a

840
01:06:33.719 --> 01:06:39.679
you know, a long line will
be one sentence, the subject will be

841
01:06:39.760 --> 01:06:45.039
the protagonist, and it will depict
what he wants. Uh. And usually

842
01:06:45.559 --> 01:06:57.320
have a position, my own uh
uh template for log lines. Uh.

843
01:06:57.760 --> 01:07:00.480
You know, I have you know, a whole hour lecture that leads up

844
01:07:00.519 --> 01:07:02.920
to this phrase, of which the
phrase is sort of the punchline. So

845
01:07:03.440 --> 01:07:08.920
I hope you're we don't have time
for that. I hope you will stipulate

846
01:07:09.760 --> 01:07:13.159
that I that I support it well
and make my point. But I think

847
01:07:13.199 --> 01:07:17.400
that the finding aspects are a hero, a villain, and a world or

848
01:07:18.039 --> 01:07:29.239
a protagonist, an antagonist and a
backdrop. So so if we said a

849
01:07:29.800 --> 01:07:38.119
m you know, uh, an
archaeologist battle the Nazis to control an ancient

850
01:07:38.280 --> 01:07:44.599
artifact that's raided the lost arc.
Right, we can get more specific,

851
01:07:45.559 --> 01:07:53.039
uh, But so it would be
an archaeologist battle de Nazis to retrieve the

852
01:07:53.480 --> 01:07:58.039
lost art of the countant. Right, So that's right in order a hero

853
01:07:58.320 --> 01:08:03.480
of villain of world, right,
And that's rated the lost art and the

854
01:08:03.559 --> 01:08:08.280
other thing I will say. And
the reason I think long lines are important

855
01:08:08.559 --> 01:08:15.559
is only one movie. It's that
description. And I think that if you've

856
01:08:15.599 --> 01:08:21.640
got a good long line and you
slapped the question what's that movie? Where

857
01:08:23.880 --> 01:08:27.920
to put your long line after it? And then put a question mark at

858
01:08:27.960 --> 01:08:32.840
the end, there is only one
answer. So, what's that movie where

859
01:08:33.319 --> 01:08:36.920
the poor boy? No, pardon
me, all we are fraides, what's

860
01:08:36.960 --> 01:08:42.159
that movie where the rich girl falls
in love looking poor boy on the doomed

861
01:08:42.239 --> 01:08:47.239
ocean liner? As everybody you know, we only have to say Titanic.

862
01:08:47.560 --> 01:08:51.399
It topped everybody's head the moment I
said that. Right now, I could

863
01:08:51.439 --> 01:08:55.960
say on the Titanic and that would
be even bigger chief, right, But

864
01:08:57.199 --> 01:09:02.079
I didn't because I wanted to pop
that movie poster and maybe that horrible song

865
01:09:02.279 --> 01:09:09.640
into your head, right, And
you cannot help but answer that. Now,

866
01:09:10.039 --> 01:09:14.479
how great a tool is that for
you to have as a defining essence?

867
01:09:15.439 --> 01:09:18.000
Did you even more heady? Here? The plutonics form of what your

868
01:09:18.079 --> 01:09:21.319
story and movie is going to be? Right? That what your movie is

869
01:09:21.399 --> 01:09:26.920
that no other movie ever has been
or will be could be defined by that

870
01:09:27.079 --> 01:09:30.199
sentence. And I think if you
get specific about your hero, specific about

871
01:09:30.199 --> 01:09:35.760
your antagonist, and specific about your
world or a backdrop, you'll get Um,

872
01:09:36.800 --> 01:09:40.239
I don't know if you were ever
the movie plot generator sort of a

873
01:09:41.199 --> 01:09:44.119
maybe it will see it's another writer's
story was selling and probably look it up

874
01:09:44.159 --> 01:09:47.239
on Amazon. But it was,
you know, a sort of three books

875
01:09:47.279 --> 01:09:56.640
and you want we'll be right back
after a word from our sponsor, and

876
01:09:56.800 --> 01:10:01.399
now back to the show. Because
it had three steps of pages that you

877
01:10:01.439 --> 01:10:04.920
could flip and so as you you
know, flip the top one, it

878
01:10:05.159 --> 01:10:11.399
changes then they're too below it,
right, So, and so you could

879
01:10:11.479 --> 01:10:15.359
change an element of a movie.
You could generate movie plots with it.

880
01:10:15.000 --> 01:10:18.439
And they were basically laid out like
that. Although you know, I was

881
01:10:18.479 --> 01:10:23.680
talking about this long line temple before
it existed. Uh you know, it

882
01:10:23.840 --> 01:10:29.800
was basically the top the top bunch
of pages were a hero, the middle

883
01:10:30.720 --> 01:10:33.520
were a villain, and the third
world world or something they were tempting to

884
01:10:33.640 --> 01:10:39.560
do or something like that. So
I think that, you know, buy

885
01:10:39.600 --> 01:10:43.600
and large is the way to generate
your long line. And you know,

886
01:10:44.680 --> 01:10:46.760
I will make no bones about it, but you know, for a while

887
01:10:46.880 --> 01:10:50.880
there in through the eighties and nineties, a lot of people they made a

888
01:10:50.920 --> 01:10:56.840
lot of money, myself included by
kind of changing the world of die Heart.

889
01:10:57.319 --> 01:11:00.960
Right. I firsted over the Forest
Fire, right, and die Hard

890
01:11:01.039 --> 01:11:08.199
in a blank was a you know, a great sort of uh you know,

891
01:11:08.279 --> 01:11:12.439
we saw a lot of those movies
and more even more scripts sold,

892
01:11:13.279 --> 01:11:16.840
uh back in that day. Now, I also changed the hero, and

893
01:11:17.079 --> 01:11:23.840
I also changed the villain, right, But essentially it was a hostage situation,

894
01:11:24.000 --> 01:11:28.479
which is kind of uh you know
what what die Hard is. Uh

895
01:11:28.760 --> 01:11:33.239
maybe one of the first two where
to uh dramatize that through an entire movie,

896
01:11:33.840 --> 01:11:36.960
although I think it goes back to
you know, movies called Desperate Hounds

897
01:11:38.000 --> 01:11:42.920
in the sub days that came off
a season sixties, so you you know,

898
01:11:43.119 --> 01:11:47.159
so and the this meets that right
sort of pistedly here in Hollywood.

899
01:11:47.680 --> 01:11:53.039
Um. Always they're always thinking,
you know, one of those three elements

900
01:11:53.119 --> 01:11:58.039
from this and another one or two
of them from that. So yeah,

901
01:11:58.039 --> 01:12:03.199
you can also uh uh pitch die
Hard pitched Firestorm, my my, my

902
01:12:03.319 --> 01:12:08.000
specs sail uh you know as die
Hard in the forest fire, right,

903
01:12:08.359 --> 01:12:12.640
or you could pies die Hard meets
backdraft. Right. So we're taking that

904
01:12:12.800 --> 01:12:15.800
hotage situation and we're putting in the
world of fire, taking a patagon it

905
01:12:15.880 --> 01:12:21.800
too, you know, battles fire
uh and uh and the hostage situation.

906
01:12:21.840 --> 01:12:27.079
It's really the situation. So you
are the world uh and combining it with

907
01:12:27.199 --> 01:12:30.960
the world of backdraft. This is
fire. Uh. You know, um,

908
01:12:30.880 --> 01:12:34.279
you know I would I pitched a
couple of times. I was writing

909
01:12:34.279 --> 01:12:41.920
in with the cliffhanger set on fire. Um and uh, you know,

910
01:12:42.239 --> 01:12:45.199
so one of my friends a lot
of people run will be this is what

911
01:12:45.319 --> 01:12:50.199
happens to be pointing down around um
uh this to me, you know,

912
01:12:50.399 --> 01:12:54.760
up the stakes eating on cliffe right
click. I noticed too very well,

913
01:12:55.319 --> 01:12:58.840
let's done on fire. It's done
better even even more of them. So

914
01:12:59.720 --> 01:13:03.760
that that's you know, uh,
that's long line for me. A hero

915
01:13:05.319 --> 01:13:10.119
and a villain and the world.
Now you can say a hero battle the

916
01:13:10.199 --> 01:13:13.640
villain or maybe the fourth one.
It is a bird implying conflict. So

917
01:13:13.880 --> 01:13:18.560
if you really want to get a
more detailed complict U, A protagonist subject

918
01:13:18.640 --> 01:13:24.319
is a protagonist. The bird always
implies conflict. The direct object of the

919
01:13:24.479 --> 01:13:30.520
sentence gives the end is the antagonist. And then there's a prepositional phrase uh,

920
01:13:30.840 --> 01:13:35.600
indicating the world. So see my
own movie fire Song, a smoke

921
01:13:35.680 --> 01:13:42.079
temper goes up against to escape convict
and biggest forest fire the other STA National

922
01:13:42.159 --> 01:13:48.279
Park History. U is exactly the
things in the hold. Now, when

923
01:13:48.319 --> 01:13:51.560
you're going through something, you know, when you're writting that screenplay, do

924
01:13:51.680 --> 01:13:56.239
you go check out die Hard and
say, okay, let me get the

925
01:13:56.279 --> 01:13:59.479
screenplay for that and see what beats
this is hitting, like what page and

926
01:13:59.600 --> 01:14:04.000
things like absolutely Uh. If you
know, certainly, when I was the

927
01:14:04.159 --> 01:14:10.279
USC and I was luck enough to
have access to a screen screenplay library,

928
01:14:10.279 --> 01:14:15.800
I would get the strings probably read
the entire first year I was at a

929
01:14:15.880 --> 01:14:21.520
screenplay every single day. Uh and
uh and not uh and um. And

930
01:14:21.720 --> 01:14:27.199
you will not surprise you at all
to to know that I go through and

931
01:14:27.319 --> 01:14:32.680
I create a reverse engineer from what
I would call a structural complate in any

932
01:14:32.720 --> 01:14:36.840
movie outline, right, I will
check what's happening on page fifteen, on

933
01:14:38.000 --> 01:14:42.119
page thirty, on page forty five
sixty, I'm ninety one oh five,

934
01:14:42.840 --> 01:14:46.800
and and what's happening you know in
the last page? Uh kind? What

935
01:14:46.920 --> 01:14:54.119
are the terms? I get the
map plus structure of that story. So

936
01:14:54.600 --> 01:14:58.399
I'm i'll certainly, you know,
read the screenplay. But you know I

937
01:14:58.600 --> 01:15:04.079
I w so many screenplays, you
know that that year that I was able,

938
01:15:04.479 --> 01:15:08.960
I would get them, you know, not just that they were a

939
01:15:09.000 --> 01:15:14.760
great structural template, but I would
go get them if they just had a

940
01:15:14.840 --> 01:15:19.319
similar character to why I was considering
even a minor character, I would.

941
01:15:20.159 --> 01:15:25.279
You know, there have been you
know, thousands, if not millions of

942
01:15:25.399 --> 01:15:32.439
movies, um, most of the
problems that they've confronted and solved and solved

943
01:15:32.560 --> 01:15:43.279
to bearing degrees of h of billions
to buy somebody. You don't have to

944
01:15:43.359 --> 01:15:45.000
re invent the wheel every time,
now, can you? You know,

945
01:15:45.159 --> 01:15:50.359
if you're very specifically creating a minor
character that you know is very similar to

946
01:15:50.520 --> 01:15:55.199
a well known minor character. Can
you do everything to those people be found

947
01:15:55.199 --> 01:15:58.640
a feeling their lines, the words
no persecution, but they can be your

948
01:15:58.640 --> 01:16:02.880
inspiration and you can isolate principles about
why that working. That did my study.

949
01:16:03.399 --> 01:16:09.359
So if it was going to be
similar in tone uh to what I

950
01:16:09.520 --> 01:16:14.920
was like, I would go read
and that that was another part of my

951
01:16:15.439 --> 01:16:18.039
you know, Uh, I only
mentioned the reading part of life, my

952
01:16:18.119 --> 01:16:24.000
creative process. I'll watch you know
at you know, after the data's work

953
01:16:24.119 --> 01:16:27.920
is done deep into the screenplay,
I'll watch a similar movie too. Um.

954
01:16:29.039 --> 01:16:31.840
So you know, there's certain templates
I find myself bringing up all the

955
01:16:31.920 --> 01:16:34.760
time to people like, oh,
you're gonna you know, you should go

956
01:16:35.520 --> 01:16:39.960
make a many movie outlook and this
one I do when I can, and

957
01:16:40.039 --> 01:16:45.079
people write these downs and collect these
outlines from starting to archives as a resource

958
01:16:45.159 --> 01:16:49.960
for my conduc dot com. Uh. Basic instinct I think is a great

959
01:16:50.760 --> 01:16:56.199
great for your detective story. And
there's some some unique structural things it does,

960
01:16:57.159 --> 01:17:01.800
uh that have been sold them a
lot and continue to inspire. Um.

961
01:17:03.079 --> 01:17:09.159
Three Days of the Condor is you
know great for for a thriller as

962
01:17:09.199 --> 01:17:16.039
well? On that spying freed um
and uh oh yeah, uh, Men

963
01:17:16.119 --> 01:17:20.880
in black is sort of uh something
I mentioned a lot to people for people

964
01:17:20.960 --> 01:17:30.520
to study uh for their own quirky
uh actually a secret organization. Uh movie.

965
01:17:30.000 --> 01:17:34.119
So if you see, you know, lots of things have been done

966
01:17:34.159 --> 01:17:38.920
before. You're very lucky when you
know when you have a really unique idea,

967
01:17:39.399 --> 01:17:43.680
but you're also very challenged if they're
if no one has gone before you

968
01:17:43.800 --> 01:17:48.840
down, it's fast. So um
and uh. Some movie is sort of

969
01:17:48.880 --> 01:17:53.840
you know, sailed by on on
that and being sort of a wonner,

970
01:17:54.159 --> 01:18:00.279
as they used to say, one
of the kind. But I think that

971
01:18:00.399 --> 01:18:03.840
they're the movies that we're seeing the
very by and large a fault do fall

972
01:18:03.960 --> 01:18:10.439
into the very gratifying. I don't
want to use the word formula because it's

973
01:18:10.520 --> 01:18:15.840
formulaic, is uh is a negative. I don't think of that that.

974
01:18:15.359 --> 01:18:19.640
You know, the polio vaccine is
a formula and it's great for us.

975
01:18:21.359 --> 01:18:26.239
You know, I need to solve
a problem of not getting polio. Please

976
01:18:26.359 --> 01:18:30.199
give me something formulaic. So you
know, I think, uh, you

977
01:18:30.279 --> 01:18:35.239
know, if you make what people
mean when they say it's formulaic and there

978
01:18:35.279 --> 01:18:41.479
and the implication is bad, it's
not original. Bro. Just to make

979
01:18:41.520 --> 01:18:46.239
origionality part of the formula, right, So I say, you know,

980
01:18:46.560 --> 01:18:49.720
uh, Cliffhanger set on Fire,
Well, if it was just Cliffhanger,

981
01:18:49.760 --> 01:18:56.239
that would be original. Combining Uh, those two elements is what brings the

982
01:18:56.279 --> 01:18:59.800
originality. And I would say,
uh, you know, if you read

983
01:18:59.840 --> 01:19:04.960
my script, you would say raising
the ball actually and take made that.

984
01:19:05.359 --> 01:19:10.239
You know that scrips worth buying that
movie with making whatever the results me.

985
01:19:10.880 --> 01:19:15.079
But it finally was made. So
I think, you know, making sure

986
01:19:15.880 --> 01:19:21.159
that it's a fresh take and it's
original. H. I don't know that

987
01:19:21.239 --> 01:19:27.920
you're necessarily going to reinvent the structure. So I did an interview with Brian

988
01:19:28.000 --> 01:19:30.239
Junivitch a couple of weeks ago,
and one of the things that he said

989
01:19:30.279 --> 01:19:34.359
that I think is very similar to
what you're saying is when they make a

990
01:19:34.439 --> 01:19:39.439
movie and he's he's a producer,
Um, he says, basically, what

991
01:19:39.560 --> 01:19:43.760
they try to do is have eighty
percent of the movie be familiar and then

992
01:19:43.880 --> 01:19:47.039
twenty percent be kind of new with
new ideas. So people don't want to

993
01:19:47.079 --> 01:19:51.399
watch movies they are one hundred percent
you know, original, because they don't

994
01:19:51.399 --> 01:19:55.000
even know where to go with it. They want to have something that's familiar,

995
01:19:55.119 --> 01:19:57.960
and then they help want to have
something that kind of surprises them within

996
01:19:58.600 --> 01:20:03.359
a template that's already kind of familiar
to them. We'll be right back after

997
01:20:03.439 --> 01:20:13.760
a word from our sponsor, and
now back to the show. I think

998
01:20:13.840 --> 01:20:18.159
that's that's absolutely correct. Um uh, you know, and and and there

999
01:20:18.199 --> 01:20:23.000
are you know, very you know, very original movies that are one hundred

1000
01:20:23.000 --> 01:20:26.800
percent of original, and I generally
can't stand them because you know, they've

1001
01:20:26.800 --> 01:20:30.520
also bought a narrative about the doors. So I mean, you know,

1002
01:20:30.880 --> 01:20:33.439
lots lots of people you know,
like uh, you know Kleani SCOTTSI,

1003
01:20:33.560 --> 01:20:36.840
which is you know, basically you
know, Philip class music with end just

1004
01:20:38.199 --> 01:20:41.199
images from around the world. There's
not a character, there's not a story

1005
01:20:41.279 --> 01:20:45.399
to follow. Um, you know, it's I don't even call it a

1006
01:20:45.479 --> 01:20:51.319
movie, right Uh. But it's
also filmed, so I guess we have

1007
01:20:51.359 --> 01:20:54.479
to call you know, and it's
a moving pictures, so we have to

1008
01:20:54.520 --> 01:20:57.760
call it a movie. But that's
not for me. Uh. And as

1009
01:20:57.800 --> 01:21:02.520
a very small segment of the of
the popular shoo are h going to uh

1010
01:21:02.920 --> 01:21:06.840
watch and love that? And I
think they're getting a different thing from it

1011
01:21:09.279 --> 01:21:13.560
then they're getting from from what we
call a movie. I would almost argue

1012
01:21:13.640 --> 01:21:18.920
that boyhood that that uh I thought
was such I actually thought was good this

1013
01:21:19.079 --> 01:21:23.159
year, but not for all the
reasons why normal think a movie is good.

1014
01:21:23.239 --> 01:21:25.960
I did think it was slow,
which I think, you know,

1015
01:21:27.159 --> 01:21:30.479
the greatest crime you can commit.
And yet it did add up to something

1016
01:21:30.640 --> 01:21:35.760
and it was such a worthy project
at undertaking and exploration is to you know,

1017
01:21:36.720 --> 01:21:42.399
a combination of movies and living life. But I would have been happy

1018
01:21:42.399 --> 01:21:48.439
if he won the album h you
know, just to reward the dedication of

1019
01:21:48.479 --> 01:21:53.600
those filmmakers and those people who showed
up those twelve years. And it does

1020
01:21:53.880 --> 01:21:56.520
kind of add up to something,
and you know that you do kind of

1021
01:21:57.079 --> 01:22:02.720
feel like, particularly the next Charnce
um or a boy uh, it has

1022
01:22:02.760 --> 01:22:09.079
a little something to say about life
as it's being lived in nearly part of

1023
01:22:09.159 --> 01:22:15.960
this money party people who grow up
that way. Um and so but I

1024
01:22:16.199 --> 01:22:20.520
almost want to say, not a
movie almost its own art form. So

1025
01:22:20.680 --> 01:22:25.800
there's an example of you know,
two things that are not really movie that

1026
01:22:26.079 --> 01:22:28.640
one I don't like him. One
I kind of game. Um, I

1027
01:22:28.680 --> 01:22:30.239
don't know, you know, mister
Linkletter would be a steps here to say

1028
01:22:30.520 --> 01:22:35.000
he's very fine to because not a
movie. Um, but I think I

1029
01:22:35.079 --> 01:22:41.760
read somewhere that he like made a
comment about hating plot, you know,

1030
01:22:41.920 --> 01:22:44.640
and I thought that was interesting that
if you watch his movies, he just

1031
01:22:44.840 --> 01:22:49.399
can't stand plot and likes to you
know, have more organic kind of scenes

1032
01:22:49.479 --> 01:22:53.840
that don't necessarily hit beats, you
know. So it's just a different you

1033
01:22:53.880 --> 01:22:58.880
know, some people can get away
with that. I so so few do

1034
01:23:00.399 --> 01:23:03.399
and and listen, I'm not going
to people to again. I'm glad.

1035
01:23:03.439 --> 01:23:06.279
I'm glad I did. I'm glad
it was done. Uh, you know,

1036
01:23:06.520 --> 01:23:14.079
I think it's never gonna make the
money the transformed it does or you

1037
01:23:14.159 --> 01:23:17.279
know, a lot of other things. So what's like what was a Tree

1038
01:23:17.359 --> 01:23:20.279
of Life too? Was kind of
like that, you know, you know,

1039
01:23:20.680 --> 01:23:25.039
to this day this will be telling. I have not seen a Tree

1040
01:23:25.079 --> 01:23:30.720
of Life to this day because I
just fear that I'm gonna go pretty pretty

1041
01:23:30.520 --> 01:23:34.399
and fall asleep. Um, I
don't know, maybe, I mean,

1042
01:23:34.560 --> 01:23:39.079
uh, some people do like it, uh, you know, a sort

1043
01:23:39.079 --> 01:23:42.560
as Alex work goes. I love
bad Lands, which was pretty you know,

1044
01:23:42.640 --> 01:23:45.319
story driven, and I feel sort
of defined a genre, you know,

1045
01:23:45.399 --> 01:23:49.560
between it and Bonnie and Clyde that
you know, uh, um,

1046
01:23:49.840 --> 01:23:54.840
the you know, young couple on
the run, pull and height uh.

1047
01:23:55.720 --> 01:24:00.479
Um was defined by that and UM
and you know seminal as a certain kind

1048
01:24:00.520 --> 01:24:04.479
of story and there's no natural born
killers about it, and a certain certain

1049
01:24:04.520 --> 01:24:08.600
other and most some one where weeds
about it, certain other stories that we've

1050
01:24:08.600 --> 01:24:15.560
seen. UM. But uh I
and I understand you know, as a

1051
01:24:15.640 --> 01:24:23.479
certain then the philosophy that uh that
you know uh uh God lasts or doesn't

1052
01:24:23.479 --> 01:24:27.960
even notice the tiny small thing that
then trying to do and care about it.

1053
01:24:29.439 --> 01:24:31.680
I guess that you know, mister
Alex has that viewpoint. UM,

1054
01:24:33.720 --> 01:24:41.279
and you're probably right, you know, probably it's true uh it to me,

1055
01:24:41.359 --> 01:24:45.720
it doesn't make for the best entertainment
once once you grab it one of

1056
01:24:45.760 --> 01:24:48.880
you, they'll see three of life
probably uh. You know, I I

1057
01:24:49.560 --> 01:24:55.760
think that you know it's better Uh
that's better or less to a philosophical discussion

1058
01:24:56.039 --> 01:25:01.000
for me to really gradic idea and
not not demonstrated uh dramatically through story.

1059
01:25:01.479 --> 01:25:08.319
UM. And you have certain ideas
you know, uh having better treatment uh

1060
01:25:09.000 --> 01:25:14.760
in other media. I guess,
so let me let me change gears for

1061
01:25:14.840 --> 01:25:16.880
a second if I can. UM. I wanted to since we're we're coming

1062
01:25:16.960 --> 01:25:21.319
up on um an hour and a
half. I want to I want to

1063
01:25:21.359 --> 01:25:25.680
make sure I hit a few things. UM. Now, uh, you

1064
01:25:25.760 --> 01:25:28.720
know a lot of people that listen
to this are you know, starting out

1065
01:25:28.720 --> 01:25:32.000
as screenwriters and um, first time
screenwriters are people that are struggling to to

1066
01:25:32.359 --> 01:25:36.560
you know, write their first Um, can you talk a little bit about

1067
01:25:38.079 --> 01:25:42.720
some of the biggest mistakes that you
see when you have new students come in

1068
01:25:42.840 --> 01:25:45.840
that are that are creating their first
screenplay? Are there any common kind of

1069
01:25:45.880 --> 01:25:49.960
pitfalls that people run into that you
see a lot? Well, you know,

1070
01:25:50.399 --> 01:25:55.960
uh, I sort of feel like
this, you know, the first

1071
01:25:56.600 --> 01:26:00.720
step is still off from the misstep, which is uh, sort of bad

1072
01:26:01.520 --> 01:26:09.079
idea selection for what you're going to
write a movie on. And I sort

1073
01:26:09.119 --> 01:26:13.680
of feel like there are two mistakes
people make. Their one is not sufficiently

1074
01:26:13.800 --> 01:26:20.359
differentiated from other movies. They don't
even really recognize that it's so similar it

1075
01:26:20.520 --> 01:26:24.800
you know, it doesn't have this
twenty percent in that age twenty the ratio

1076
01:26:24.920 --> 01:26:29.479
that you know that you were talking
about, Um, you're a producer prime.

1077
01:26:29.680 --> 01:26:34.039
I would mentioning UM, and and
I will speak to someone and I

1078
01:26:34.079 --> 01:26:39.119
will say, well, how is
that different from this from on film?

1079
01:26:39.680 --> 01:26:44.359
And I won't get it good enoughing, uh, and there's this desire to

1080
01:26:44.479 --> 01:26:48.079
cling to it because you you know, you love this idea and maybe it

1081
01:26:48.159 --> 01:26:50.399
even got you to be a writer. And if it did that, it

1082
01:26:50.600 --> 01:26:55.159
was worth it? Is it?
Everything made? Maybe not the other?

1083
01:26:55.600 --> 01:26:59.479
The other is taking something that doesn't
that attention to it and isn't going to

1084
01:26:59.640 --> 01:27:02.880
be you know, a good story
when you're done an idea, this is

1085
01:27:02.920 --> 01:27:09.039
not a good idea and having that
esthetic, you know, having studying that

1086
01:27:09.159 --> 01:27:14.399
movie to know, h what you
know what a good idea is because it's

1087
01:27:14.399 --> 01:27:17.640
going to provide a great tension,
to conflict and ideally yield a theme.

1088
01:27:18.479 --> 01:27:24.119
Um, I think it's key.
I think that's that's a very common distep

1089
01:27:24.359 --> 01:27:27.880
that only gets the actual writing,
uh, you know, over directing and

1090
01:27:28.479 --> 01:27:33.199
putting things in in the narration that
uh, you know couldn't possibly be acting

1091
01:27:33.319 --> 01:27:40.119
or dramatized or seen, you know, the things that development executives and are

1092
01:27:40.199 --> 01:27:44.760
whether I how do I know?
Uh you know, uh in the margin

1093
01:27:44.880 --> 01:27:47.199
devent so you know the main character
thinks at the time when he was three

1094
01:27:47.279 --> 01:27:50.600
years old and went the old Fisian
hole, right, you put that a

1095
01:27:50.720 --> 01:27:55.800
narration? You know, I've been
an actor. I cannot put an expression

1096
01:27:55.840 --> 01:28:00.840
on my faith even in the closes
that shows you I'm thinking of that,

1097
01:28:00.479 --> 01:28:09.039
right, um so? And the
over directing and really having such a strong

1098
01:28:09.239 --> 01:28:11.720
visual in your controverting that goes on, but it's doing a lot of things

1099
01:28:11.800 --> 01:28:15.560
that jump matter story. Can you
put in any sort of I mean,

1100
01:28:15.640 --> 01:28:20.119
I know that people who are writers
and directors, you know, like pt

1101
01:28:20.239 --> 01:28:25.760
Anderson will put camera moves and things
into his shooting script. Is there is

1102
01:28:25.800 --> 01:28:30.840
that just completely taboo to put any
sort of like camera movement or I mean,

1103
01:28:30.960 --> 01:28:38.079
can you do like angle on something
or focus on there? I think

1104
01:28:38.119 --> 01:28:44.319
it's because it's becoming less and less
taboos, and as you will see more

1105
01:28:44.640 --> 01:28:53.039
more screenplays. I am none the
I'm nonetheless I partially because I'm just an

1106
01:28:53.079 --> 01:28:58.199
old dinosaur and I grew up saying
never do it, and books that say

1107
01:28:58.439 --> 01:29:05.239
that say never do it, and
and do it over direct my my opinion

1108
01:29:05.880 --> 01:29:10.319
on why you shouldn't do a little
different thanyby else. You know, don't

1109
01:29:10.319 --> 01:29:14.000
tell the director how a director can
across all of stuff out uh, and

1110
01:29:14.159 --> 01:29:17.960
he's going pissed off of you.
My attitude is much more, at least

1111
01:29:17.960 --> 01:29:21.479
than in the spec scrip of the
line to be read. Let's put the

1112
01:29:21.520 --> 01:29:30.680
word camera in it, okay or
angle is to jar the leader out of

1113
01:29:30.279 --> 01:29:33.920
what you're hope, out of the
flow state. They should get into such

1114
01:29:33.960 --> 01:29:39.960
a state leadingership that they forget that
they're even leading. It should flow through

1115
01:29:40.079 --> 01:29:47.560
them and and to put and they
should so they should feel like they're flying

1116
01:29:47.600 --> 01:29:55.000
on the wall watching these people have
these experiences, and then they should so

1117
01:29:55.279 --> 01:29:59.680
forget themselves and uh lease their their
self consciousness so much so there's even for

1118
01:30:00.119 --> 01:30:03.760
not even you're flying when there should
be no wall. We'll be right back

1119
01:30:03.960 --> 01:30:13.720
after a word from our sponsor,
and now back to the show. And

1120
01:30:14.760 --> 01:30:17.159
that's what you're trying to do.
You syd just achieved that then state of

1121
01:30:18.119 --> 01:30:24.880
flow with your reader. And so
they so they should only realize when they

1122
01:30:24.880 --> 01:30:29.359
get to the script that they were
even reading. A director of Zigniel calls

1123
01:30:29.520 --> 01:30:35.000
thegree in state um and say camera
that Shu say angle is to remind them

1124
01:30:35.039 --> 01:30:39.319
they're watching you there they're being the
should in scripts for a movie that will

1125
01:30:39.359 --> 01:30:43.720
ultimately failm that actors are going to
be playing these roles and to take them

1126
01:30:43.720 --> 01:30:47.760
out of their reality. The same
reason I am against we see and we

1127
01:30:47.920 --> 01:30:55.079
hear about in the script. There's
no read there are There is only the

1128
01:30:55.159 --> 01:31:00.520
flow of this story. You're not
forget that. You are change and hearing

1129
01:31:00.600 --> 01:31:06.000
it. H Let it flow through. That's what I want to see in

1130
01:31:06.039 --> 01:31:10.960
the spec script now when that is
changing for shooting script, I avowed the

1131
01:31:11.199 --> 01:31:16.960
next one I will I'll probably Cabra
directions in you because it seemed perfectly obvious

1132
01:31:17.000 --> 01:31:19.600
to me that this had to be
a close up than I said, you

1133
01:31:19.720 --> 01:31:25.880
see it tear on its face?
Then it wasn't. I wouldn't say you

1134
01:31:25.960 --> 01:31:29.399
see I think I would play tears
on the space. Um, you know,

1135
01:31:29.840 --> 01:31:33.600
Cail, I go to coded stuff
like that. I've described somebody's face.

1136
01:31:34.079 --> 01:31:42.800
It means closest. I'm trying to
get you into the visual of the

1137
01:31:42.880 --> 01:31:46.439
movie I have in my head,
But I don't actually feel that we seem

1138
01:31:46.479 --> 01:31:50.640
to be here? Does that so
you would just say instead of like we

1139
01:31:50.880 --> 01:31:56.520
hear a car honk outside, you
would just say a car honks outside or

1140
01:31:56.640 --> 01:32:01.079
something like that. Yeah, okay, yeah, all right, UM let

1141
01:32:01.119 --> 01:32:06.479
me what wasn't that an improvement that? But what did you did you hear

1142
01:32:06.520 --> 01:32:11.640
a car honking? Or will you
in your mind. You what's going to

1143
01:32:11.680 --> 01:32:13.960
be different from the screen in the
movie, They're going to be the same.

1144
01:32:14.640 --> 01:32:19.000
Yeah. Now, when you were
at USC, were there any screenplays

1145
01:32:19.199 --> 01:32:23.880
that were kind of do well?
Did you have any like I hate to

1146
01:32:23.920 --> 01:32:28.640
say this phrase, but any like
aha moments when you just like kind of

1147
01:32:28.760 --> 01:32:31.000
got it for the first time,
or when you when you realized like,

1148
01:32:31.399 --> 01:32:35.239
Okay, this is this is really
someone who has talent and this is a

1149
01:32:35.319 --> 01:32:41.119
screenplay that you know is going to
inspire me. Um. You know,

1150
01:32:41.239 --> 01:32:45.479
I read all of William Goldman's works, Uh, and it was particularly The

1151
01:32:45.520 --> 01:32:48.920
Princess Bride. And I actually never
read the novel in Princess Bride, but

1152
01:32:49.079 --> 01:32:55.159
I quite like the movie where I
said this, you know, this is

1153
01:32:55.399 --> 01:33:00.239
an incredible piece of work and it's
you just your eyes are just pulled down

1154
01:33:00.319 --> 01:33:03.640
the page. Uh. Shane Black, who you know, sort of everybody's

1155
01:33:03.640 --> 01:33:06.760
idol coming up in the in the
Square and room. Had you happened to

1156
01:33:06.880 --> 01:33:10.640
him what we all want to have
happened to him? Uh? Is on

1157
01:33:10.800 --> 01:33:13.399
record of thing. I read all
all William Goldman, I read all of

1158
01:33:14.399 --> 01:33:18.760
Walter Hill, and so I took
my writing style from them, and so

1159
01:33:19.159 --> 01:33:24.319
I they pointed reading all those Golden
scripts, I then pointed reading all Walter

1160
01:33:24.479 --> 01:33:28.239
Hill script and I did have one
thing coming up. The Shane Black did

1161
01:33:28.319 --> 01:33:33.279
not have this word. I also
had Shane Black. So I read both

1162
01:33:33.359 --> 01:33:36.720
produced and unproduced and a lot of
others. As I say, you have

1163
01:33:36.960 --> 01:33:41.199
a splight of slopment, but two
that really stand out a heart of reading

1164
01:33:41.359 --> 01:33:47.039
screenplay Joe that I would say that
the Princess Bride screenplay was so beautiful made

1165
01:33:47.039 --> 01:33:51.560
me cry more than seeing the movie
ever had. I'm not like the cults

1166
01:33:51.600 --> 01:33:57.760
fan sent this problem that everybody else
that's love it just not you know,

1167
01:33:57.920 --> 01:34:01.960
like I'm telling you with you again. Um. And also the movie uh

1168
01:34:02.439 --> 01:34:08.880
field of Dreams between type of feeling
of dreams I am seeing that movie was

1169
01:34:08.960 --> 01:34:13.199
very emotionally affecting, affecting on me, and I let the writ attack had

1170
01:34:13.760 --> 01:34:18.119
at least the same emotion, probably
more. Um So, I guess it's

1171
01:34:18.319 --> 01:34:21.560
you know, I'm giving you the
ones that made me cry. Um.

1172
01:34:21.640 --> 01:34:29.600
I also read a lot of a
lot of the ones that give you this

1173
01:34:29.760 --> 01:34:33.039
emotion, and those probably inforcement writing
sound more exactly sure that that emotion is

1174
01:34:33.319 --> 01:34:39.039
uh uh so I'll just sort of
gives the reaction, which is whoa cool

1175
01:34:40.199 --> 01:34:45.000
I read a lot of those,
um and in fact, my my producer

1176
01:34:45.079 --> 01:34:47.800
said, you're going to carve yourself
a nichean Hollywood be cool stuff. Got

1177
01:34:49.079 --> 01:34:54.439
um and that that is what I
tried to do. And that's that's kind

1178
01:34:54.520 --> 01:35:00.319
of what I learned to write quickly. Um. Now I've written, I

1179
01:35:00.399 --> 01:35:03.640
have written screenplay since that don't make
you Cry in frantic comedies, in a

1180
01:35:03.720 --> 01:35:10.359
family movie and things like that that
that came over the waves of my ahash

1181
01:35:10.560 --> 01:35:13.439
and the remember that you stick with
me or you know what, like you

1182
01:35:13.600 --> 01:35:17.439
remember being on an exercise, exercise
like reading to you're streaming down my face,

1183
01:35:18.600 --> 01:35:25.960
or feel with the princess road all
right? Now. My final question

1184
01:35:26.199 --> 01:35:29.159
is always the same. I call
it the time machine. If you could

1185
01:35:29.199 --> 01:35:31.680
go back in time and talk to
yourself when you were, let's say,

1186
01:35:32.399 --> 01:35:40.319
eighteen twenty years old, what advice
would you have for yourself about filmmaking or

1187
01:35:40.399 --> 01:35:46.920
screenwriting or life in general. Okay, filmmaking way, I think I would

1188
01:35:47.000 --> 01:35:57.279
say, uh, start writing now, because that came to writing in life.

1189
01:35:59.399 --> 01:36:02.600
And I'm always very jealous of the
people who are at that age and

1190
01:36:02.720 --> 01:36:06.279
know they want to be writers,
because I went through two careers before I

1191
01:36:06.439 --> 01:36:13.640
really started writing. And then I
would say, because it is all writing,

1192
01:36:15.039 --> 01:36:21.319
also making its writing, or all
of writing and filmmaking and art in

1193
01:36:21.479 --> 01:36:29.840
general are the same thing from other
things. And as best as I can

1194
01:36:29.920 --> 01:36:32.960
determine, there's a relatively recent revelation
for me, I certainly don't how action

1195
01:36:33.560 --> 01:36:43.920
he is. They are leveraging the
most meaning that you can into the smallest

1196
01:36:44.159 --> 01:36:51.479
possible piece of information. So the
most meaning you can and do into a

1197
01:36:51.640 --> 01:36:58.319
visual, the most meaning you can
into a word or words. If you

1198
01:36:58.479 --> 01:37:02.199
have a line to spite word and
quite meaningful. If you can past one

1199
01:37:02.279 --> 01:37:09.359
word and lose no meaning, you
just increase the ratio of words, meaning

1200
01:37:09.800 --> 01:37:20.279
of a syllable's meaning last, and
so still everything with meaning. If I

1201
01:37:20.399 --> 01:37:28.079
only had four words to say that
eighteen year old, I would say that

1202
01:37:28.279 --> 01:37:31.479
about about writing. I would say
that about filmmaking. I would say that

1203
01:37:31.479 --> 01:37:35.800
about art. Since you asked,
yes, I would say that about life.

1204
01:37:40.640 --> 01:37:43.720
Well, Chris, I really really
appreciate you coming on today, and

1205
01:37:45.439 --> 01:37:48.760
thanks for spending the time with us. Jason, it's been a real Please

1206
01:37:49.159 --> 01:37:53.039
send me a link and let me
know when it's talks. All right,

1207
01:37:53.479 --> 01:37:56.560
Just so so people know, can
you do you want to put your links

1208
01:37:56.680 --> 01:37:59.399
up and you're how to get in
touch with you and find your books and

1209
01:37:59.520 --> 01:38:03.079
things? Sure? Absolutely. Uh, if you searched my name Chris Soap

1210
01:38:03.359 --> 01:38:08.720
in the Kindle store, you'd see
I think at that at this point five

1211
01:38:08.800 --> 01:38:12.399
books there. I intend to kind
of be publishing it like a Kindle single

1212
01:38:12.479 --> 01:38:15.000
size book, several times a year, maybe as much as once a week.

1213
01:38:16.039 --> 01:38:19.479
Shortly, I do sort of a
regular screams by Mastermind group, and

1214
01:38:19.800 --> 01:38:24.199
I sort of started to transcribe those
and publish them. The people say to

1215
01:38:24.279 --> 01:38:27.720
me, I want that information,
to get that to me, so you

1216
01:38:27.800 --> 01:38:32.560
can find that Amazon. I have
I guess my flagshift books now, screenplay

1217
01:38:32.680 --> 01:38:39.600
mentor dot com and uh there's another
one million dollars screenwriting dot com. And

1218
01:38:39.800 --> 01:38:44.720
if you want to reach me personally
that first name and las name Chris sop

1219
01:38:45.479 --> 01:38:51.760
hl I s h ATKLO dot com
or gmail dot com. You can get

1220
01:38:51.800 --> 01:38:59.239
some either way. Chris doll All
right, Chris, thanks a lot.

1221
01:38:59.239 --> 01:39:01.920
I appreciate it. Thank you,
Jason. It's been fun. I want

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to thank Jason so much for doing
such an amazing job with this episode.

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If you want to get links to
anything we spoke about in this episode,

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head over to the show notes at
Bulletproof Screenwriting dot tv Forard Slash two ninety

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two. Thank you so much for
listening. Guys, As always, keep

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on writing no matter what. I'll
talk to you soon. Thanks for listening

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to the Bulletproof Screenwriting podcast at Bulletproof
Screenwriting dot tv.