WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.160 --> 00:00:04.280 So token relations like. At a base level, it's we're trying to be 2 00:00:04.360 --> 00:00:08.439 all in one service provider that aims to connect blockchains, token projects, and 3 00:00:08.480 --> 00:00:14.279 crypto protocols with their ecosystems people who have a financial stake in their organization or 4 00:00:14.679 --> 00:00:27.120 have a general interest through direct communication. This content is brought to you by 5 00:00:27.160 --> 00:00:31.320 bitco, which is one of the top crypto custodians in the crypto industry. 6 00:00:31.600 --> 00:00:36.560 Bitco works with many big companies and brands such as Pantera Capital, Bitstamp, 7 00:00:36.640 --> 00:00:42.960 and bitcoin Ira. Nike also selected Bitco to power its wallets for its NFTs 8 00:00:43.359 --> 00:00:47.880 and Bitco has many great services such as hot wallets, custodial wallets, self 9 00:00:47.920 --> 00:00:53.520 managed cold wallets, and NFT wallets. Many institutions trust bitco with its top 10 00:00:53.600 --> 00:00:59.159 level security and incredible services such as being able to deploy your capital while it's 11 00:00:59.159 --> 00:01:03.479 in custody, which includes lending, borrowing, trading, staking, DeFi access 12 00:01:03.479 --> 00:01:07.040 and more. If you'd like to learn more about bitco, please visit bitgo 13 00:01:07.120 --> 00:01:11.719 dot com link in the description. Welcome to the Thinking Crypto Podcast. I'm 14 00:01:11.760 --> 00:01:14.959 your host, Tony Edward, and with me today is Jacqueline Melanick, who's 15 00:01:15.000 --> 00:01:18.480 the co founder of Token Relations. Jacqueline. Great to have you on. 16 00:01:19.239 --> 00:01:22.599 Thanks for having me. Excited to be here. Jacqueline, you and I 17 00:01:22.640 --> 00:01:27.000 have spoken on the interwebs for a while, yes, because you were a 18 00:01:27.000 --> 00:01:33.040 crypto reporter at tech Runch, and you know, we talked about promotions and 19 00:01:33.200 --> 00:01:36.959 different things and what's happening in the industry. But before we get there, 20 00:01:37.760 --> 00:01:40.680 I want to find out we learn more about your background. You know, 21 00:01:40.680 --> 00:01:45.079 where you're from and what's your professional background. Yeah. So I am originally 22 00:01:45.079 --> 00:01:48.760 from Westchester, New York. I live in New York City. Now Westchester 23 00:01:48.920 --> 00:01:53.239 is like a suburb outside of the city. And I was a professional journalist 24 00:01:53.400 --> 00:01:57.040 up until, you know, last month when I launched Token Relations, and 25 00:01:57.079 --> 00:02:02.599 now I've kind of shifted into that entrepreneur real role. And what made you 26 00:02:02.640 --> 00:02:09.120 want to be a reporter in the crypto industry. Yeah, so when I 27 00:02:09.199 --> 00:02:15.120 initially graduated from college, I did an internship at Bloomberg and they put me 28 00:02:15.319 --> 00:02:19.879 on the oil trading desk. And I knew nothing about oil. I knew 29 00:02:19.919 --> 00:02:23.639 nothing about energy. But when you get given an assignment there, you just 30 00:02:23.159 --> 00:02:28.199 you're like, of course, I'm happy to do that. And so I 31 00:02:28.360 --> 00:02:31.639 covered oil trading for them. And then when that internship was wrapping up, 32 00:02:32.240 --> 00:02:38.240 I went on to cover energy markets for S and P Global, And while 33 00:02:38.240 --> 00:02:43.240 I was doing that, I kind of felt like it was a lot of 34 00:02:43.280 --> 00:02:46.400 red tape. It was very old schools boring, no offense to people and 35 00:02:46.560 --> 00:02:53.120 energy, but it's just like the same major companies are controlling the industry and 36 00:02:53.759 --> 00:02:57.199 a lot of the sourcing that I had. None of them really wanted to 37 00:02:57.240 --> 00:03:00.000 talk on record or could talk on record. They would genuinely get in trouble 38 00:03:00.039 --> 00:03:07.719 for doing that, and so everything was very like walled gardens. And I 39 00:03:07.879 --> 00:03:10.759 was living down in Houston, Texas at the time because that's one of the 40 00:03:12.000 --> 00:03:15.319 major energy hubs in the US, and I wanted to move back to New 41 00:03:15.400 --> 00:03:17.840 York, that's where I'm originally from. I want to be closer to friends 42 00:03:17.840 --> 00:03:22.560 and family, and they have an office here, and they basically said no. 43 00:03:22.719 --> 00:03:25.919 So I started looking for new opportunities. And I was between one covering 44 00:03:25.960 --> 00:03:32.479 asset management at a very big traditional media organization or another one covering crypto at 45 00:03:32.520 --> 00:03:37.800 what was a small startup at the time called BlockWorks. And I spoke to 46 00:03:38.240 --> 00:03:40.360 my mentors of my life, people that you know, I looked up to 47 00:03:40.599 --> 00:03:45.039 went to for career advice, and almost everyone told me not to take the 48 00:03:45.080 --> 00:03:47.080 crypto job. They're like, what if bitcoin goes to zero? And I 49 00:03:47.120 --> 00:03:51.520 was like, what if? You know, but at the time, I 50 00:03:51.680 --> 00:03:55.319 was younger and I didn't have any like extreme financial ties. You know, 51 00:03:55.719 --> 00:04:00.639 I'm not married, I don't have kids. The worst that would happened would 52 00:04:00.680 --> 00:04:03.960 be that I would have to like pay my rent if you know, bitcoin 53 00:04:04.000 --> 00:04:08.840 actually did go to zero, which of course we know it's not going to 54 00:04:08.960 --> 00:04:13.360 zero. And so I really found crypta to be super interesting. I love 55 00:04:13.400 --> 00:04:15.399 the team at BlockWorks and I wanted to go for it, and so I 56 00:04:15.480 --> 00:04:19.240 was there for about nine months and then I got poached by tech Crunch and 57 00:04:19.279 --> 00:04:25.480 I was there for about two years or so, and now I'm starting my 58 00:04:25.480 --> 00:04:29.399 own company. Yeah, that's exciting. Before we get to your company, 59 00:04:30.720 --> 00:04:34.920 I'm very curious as to when things clicked for you around bitcoin, because you 60 00:04:35.040 --> 00:04:39.079 may hear about it, you may work in the industry, but have you 61 00:04:39.879 --> 00:04:42.920 had your aha moment like, oh, Okay, I get it and now 62 00:04:43.040 --> 00:04:48.360 I'm going all in. Yeah. So I first encountered bitcoin specifically when I 63 00:04:48.480 --> 00:04:54.920 was in high school. I sent money to buy bitcoin to buy something on 64 00:04:54.959 --> 00:05:00.120 the Internet and that would have definitely been worth a lot more today than the 65 00:05:00.160 --> 00:05:04.279 item I bought at the time. And yeah, I was always interested by 66 00:05:04.319 --> 00:05:10.199 it. I heard about it through college. Throughout college, and you know, 67 00:05:10.240 --> 00:05:15.480 I had friends who were constantly dabbling and crypto trading specifically, and I 68 00:05:15.560 --> 00:05:17.360 knew about the industry, but I never knew how vast and deep it was 69 00:05:17.439 --> 00:05:21.519 until I really became a crypto reporter. And it was like the world's steepest 70 00:05:21.560 --> 00:05:26.000 learning curve. But once you like get up that curve, you're fine. 71 00:05:26.680 --> 00:05:30.240 And so I spent like the first three months at BlockWorks like diving deep into 72 00:05:30.279 --> 00:05:33.759 every piece of like white papers, podcasts, research reports, etc. That 73 00:05:33.759 --> 00:05:36.360 I could get my hands on, just to really understand the space a lot 74 00:05:36.439 --> 00:05:41.879 better. And for me, that AHA moment wasn't like one specific thing, 75 00:05:42.399 --> 00:05:46.480 but it was like a culmination of events. Talking to founders innovators in the 76 00:05:46.519 --> 00:05:50.319 space who are genuinely building for the betterment of society and seeing and using this 77 00:05:50.399 --> 00:05:56.439 technology firsthand. There were just a ton of aha moments, which I think 78 00:05:56.519 --> 00:06:00.040 is special. That's awesome. And as your time as a crypto reporter, 79 00:06:00.800 --> 00:06:05.480 was there any crazy stories or anything that you're like man, this is n 80 00:06:05.720 --> 00:06:14.399 was it like FTX anything that. I think the Tara Luna collapse was really 81 00:06:14.439 --> 00:06:19.399 crazy because that was actually around the time after the FTX Bahamas event, or 82 00:06:19.439 --> 00:06:25.000 it was during it, if I'm remembering correctly, and everything was just it 83 00:06:25.040 --> 00:06:29.279 was right after FTX Bahamas actually, and it was kind of like a moment 84 00:06:29.360 --> 00:06:32.800 of disbelief. There's a lot of moments of disbelief in this industry where you're 85 00:06:32.839 --> 00:06:38.199 like, is this actually happening? And so with the Tara Luna situation, 86 00:06:38.439 --> 00:06:44.399 just seeing the charts plummet and seeing the aftermath of what happened with hedge funds 87 00:06:44.399 --> 00:06:51.680 and other companies that were entangled in that mess was just remarkable in very bad 88 00:06:51.720 --> 00:06:56.959 ways. And then I think also the FTX situation was another moment where you're 89 00:06:56.959 --> 00:07:00.040 like watching it unravel in real time. You're constantly putting out articles and stories 90 00:07:00.079 --> 00:07:03.759 of what's happening. Things are always changing, like one tweet could change the 91 00:07:03.839 --> 00:07:11.079 market, and it's every day in crypto. As a cryptoreporter is like completely 92 00:07:11.079 --> 00:07:13.839 different. You never know what you're gonna do. Like sometimes I would tell 93 00:07:13.879 --> 00:07:15.920 like my editors like, oh, I'm working on this this week, and 94 00:07:15.959 --> 00:07:17.720 then all of a sudden the world would be like, nope, you're actually 95 00:07:17.720 --> 00:07:21.399 focusing on this, and you have to like completely shift your gear and look 96 00:07:21.439 --> 00:07:28.079 at what's going on and be able to share that information away that educates everyone 97 00:07:28.120 --> 00:07:30.600 in the community in a way that they couldn't just access online, you know, 98 00:07:30.639 --> 00:07:34.600 and you also have to make it original, and so that was always 99 00:07:34.639 --> 00:07:38.800 a fun but challenging task throughout the time I was a reporter. And they're 100 00:07:38.800 --> 00:07:43.399 also really rewarding moments of course, like the comeback story of Solana covering that 101 00:07:43.600 --> 00:07:47.199 is always great. The wild, weird, quirky moments in the industry, 102 00:07:47.319 --> 00:07:54.000 the winds against the sec those are you know, landmark situations, and or 103 00:07:54.160 --> 00:07:59.480 like the spot bitcoin ETF approval another awesome time and we're just sitting here like 104 00:07:59.560 --> 00:08:03.360 monitoring filings and like keeping up with everything to be the first one to get 105 00:08:03.360 --> 00:08:07.800 that out there. Or even like SBF's uh, you know, guilty verdict 106 00:08:07.920 --> 00:08:11.079 and his sentencing. It might not be exciting for him, but I think 107 00:08:11.120 --> 00:08:16.519 a lot of people in the industry wanted that kind of justification, and so 108 00:08:16.639 --> 00:08:22.439 those moments are big moments for sure, but uh special nonetheless, Yeah, 109 00:08:22.519 --> 00:08:26.000 yeah, and especially like you you makes like you mentioned Twitter like a tweak 110 00:08:26.040 --> 00:08:30.519 and move markets. But you know, crypto Twitter in itself is just wild, 111 00:08:30.639 --> 00:08:35.399 right memes and dgens and all that. I'm sure it's unlike anything else 112 00:08:35.679 --> 00:08:39.320 in other industries. Yeah, that's actually a really good point because a long 113 00:08:39.360 --> 00:08:43.639 time ago, when I first was a crypto reporter, like, you know, 114 00:08:43.720 --> 00:08:46.639 about a year into it, someone once told me, like, you're 115 00:08:46.679 --> 00:08:50.080 a part of the reporter community, stop acting like you're a part of the 116 00:08:50.120 --> 00:08:54.639 crypto community. And I'm like, first of all, I'm just engaging with 117 00:08:56.200 --> 00:09:00.279 the community, you know, like I'm not trying to put any bodyas there. 118 00:09:00.279 --> 00:09:03.279 I'm not trying to act a certain way. I'm just having fun with 119 00:09:03.320 --> 00:09:07.919 it. And I also feel like being a crypto reporter is very different than 120 00:09:07.919 --> 00:09:11.919 being any other form of reporter, and you have to be passionate about the 121 00:09:11.919 --> 00:09:16.200 industry. You have to be interested in, like curious. You can't just 122 00:09:16.360 --> 00:09:22.279 be a passive reporter. Like political reporters. They cover things solely as facts. 123 00:09:22.279 --> 00:09:26.279 They're not engaging directly with the technology that politics are built upon. You 124 00:09:26.279 --> 00:09:30.000 know, maybe they'll like work with the surveys or something like that, but 125 00:09:30.279 --> 00:09:33.279 it's not the same. Whereas in crypto you really do have to test these 126 00:09:33.320 --> 00:09:37.240 things out to fully understand it. And if you're not testing it out and 127 00:09:37.240 --> 00:09:39.960 you're not engaging with people in the space and understanding like the crypto culture and 128 00:09:41.000 --> 00:09:43.000 everything else in between, you're not going to do as good of a job 129 00:09:43.039 --> 00:09:46.559 as someone else who does. And there are reporters out there in crypto, 130 00:09:46.759 --> 00:09:50.320 you know, who don't care about this industry. They just see it as 131 00:09:50.320 --> 00:09:54.320 a paycheck or you know, they're fully skeptical. They don't like it at 132 00:09:54.360 --> 00:09:56.039 all. They don't see any value and you could see that in their writing 133 00:09:56.080 --> 00:10:00.440 and the way they look at this. And for me, like I always 134 00:10:00.440 --> 00:10:03.159 felt like I, yes, I was a part of the reporter community one 135 00:10:03.200 --> 00:10:05.200 hundred percent, but I was also a part of the crypto community, and 136 00:10:05.240 --> 00:10:09.440 I think that was extremely valuable in the way that I covered things. I 137 00:10:09.480 --> 00:10:13.600 built professional relationships, and I got to know the industry in such a better 138 00:10:13.679 --> 00:10:18.000 light because of how passionate I was about this technology. Yeah, that's awesome, 139 00:10:18.000 --> 00:10:22.480 and that's such a great point. And I think you can talk about 140 00:10:22.480 --> 00:10:26.919 something if you've experienced it and you know, did some testing way to trial 141 00:10:26.919 --> 00:10:30.399 and error, you know, can you give a full review of bitcoin or 142 00:10:30.440 --> 00:10:33.559 other blockchains, if you haven't moved a bitcoin, if you haven't experienced a 143 00:10:33.600 --> 00:10:37.919 wallet set up and seed phrases and all that. So great points. Now, 144 00:10:39.080 --> 00:10:43.200 I think it's a good segue into token relations. Tell us about token 145 00:10:43.360 --> 00:10:48.039 relations what's your mission and how did it come about? Yeah, so token 146 00:10:48.080 --> 00:10:50.320 relations, Like at a base level, it's we're trying to be all in 147 00:10:50.360 --> 00:10:56.240 one service provider that aims to connect blockchains, token projects, and crypto protocols 148 00:10:56.279 --> 00:11:01.440 with their ecosystems, people who have a financial stake in their organization or have 149 00:11:01.519 --> 00:11:07.679 a general interest through direct communication. Of course, there are avenues like Twitter, 150 00:11:07.759 --> 00:11:09.639 Discord, Telegram, et cetera that exist today. We're not trying to 151 00:11:09.639 --> 00:11:13.279 replace that, but we see those as one to many and a lot of 152 00:11:13.320 --> 00:11:16.919 times, like if someone tweets something out, you'll give it a like, 153 00:11:16.039 --> 00:11:20.960 but you don't really understand, like what XYZ upgrade really means, or if 154 00:11:22.000 --> 00:11:24.440 someone says they're announcing a launch of something, what does that really mean for 155 00:11:24.519 --> 00:11:30.039 you as an ecosystem player? And so we're trying to build smarter relationships and 156 00:11:30.080 --> 00:11:35.360 connections between these blockchains and other partners to connect with their ecosystems across the board. 157 00:11:37.080 --> 00:11:41.440 We've partnered with Optimism, Avalanche and Aptos publicly, and we're rolling out 158 00:11:41.480 --> 00:11:46.799 more partnerships in the coming weeks and months. And we're not pr media marketing, 159 00:11:46.879 --> 00:11:50.120 et cetera. We like to refer to it as like a third bucket, 160 00:11:50.399 --> 00:11:54.960 where like the public markets have shareholders, letters, earnings, et cetera. 161 00:11:56.440 --> 00:12:00.360 And they've obviously perfected that in their own way, but the crypto is 162 00:12:00.440 --> 00:12:05.759 very different than the general public market, and we're trying to rebuild that model 163 00:12:05.799 --> 00:12:09.600 in a cryptocentric framework that applies to the industry and like fits that ethos and 164 00:12:09.840 --> 00:12:13.919 like cultural zeitgeist that I talked about before, and customizing it to fit the 165 00:12:13.919 --> 00:12:20.799 needs of our partners. So are you building like a platform or is it 166 00:12:20.879 --> 00:12:26.399 more of a service where you're I don't know, amplifying or breaking down some 167 00:12:26.519 --> 00:12:28.559 of the content that's put out in the tweet. But like you said, 168 00:12:30.000 --> 00:12:31.200 so many people are like, you know, if they're a tokenholder, what 169 00:12:31.240 --> 00:12:33.240 does this mean? Like what does this mean for me? You know, 170 00:12:35.080 --> 00:12:39.320 how are you executing the communication? Right? So right now, it's pretty 171 00:12:39.399 --> 00:12:43.320 like we're in this V one era I like to call it, and it's 172 00:12:43.320 --> 00:12:46.360 like web two mechanics, like we're getting distribution lists. We're building out audiences 173 00:12:46.360 --> 00:12:50.720 on our front. You know, me and POMP have backgrounds and building out 174 00:12:50.759 --> 00:12:56.000 audiences and like engaging with communities, and so we're doing it directly through email 175 00:12:56.080 --> 00:13:00.200 right now, and that's for the reoccurring newsletters for our launch partners, and 176 00:13:00.240 --> 00:13:03.080 then we're going to be rolling out webinars at the end of the month for 177 00:13:03.120 --> 00:13:07.159 them. These quarterly webinars and the bi annual reports will come down the line. 178 00:13:07.480 --> 00:13:09.200 But we're also building out a tech platform to answer your question, and 179 00:13:09.240 --> 00:13:13.120 so that's something that we see coming in the coming months. We're working with 180 00:13:13.159 --> 00:13:16.320 engineers on the back end to build this out and kind of solve what we 181 00:13:16.440 --> 00:13:20.759 like to call a data problem, and it's an information problem in the sense 182 00:13:20.799 --> 00:13:24.519 that there's so much data out there, but it's not being collected in the 183 00:13:24.639 --> 00:13:28.120 right way. Obviously, as we partner with more and more businesses, it's 184 00:13:28.200 --> 00:13:33.080 something that needs to be automated to an extent, but also there's the human 185 00:13:33.159 --> 00:13:35.960 side to it, right so we'll have people who could explain what happened and 186 00:13:37.039 --> 00:13:41.320 why it matters, But in the automated side of things, we will be 187 00:13:41.399 --> 00:13:46.039 able to kind of gather everything that's happening for each of these blockchains or products 188 00:13:46.120 --> 00:13:48.759 or protocols, et cetera, and be able to disseminate that information in a 189 00:13:48.799 --> 00:13:54.639 way that makes sense to the ecosystem. Now, I know I'm gonna ask 190 00:13:54.639 --> 00:13:56.679 some questions here. I don't know if you can answer them, because I 191 00:13:56.679 --> 00:14:01.039 don't want you to give away your secret sauce. So let's say you know 192 00:14:01.039 --> 00:14:07.480 you have different demographics in the crypto market, and let's say let's take Cardano 193 00:14:07.679 --> 00:14:11.480 just as an example. There's eight to token holders. Now, some may 194 00:14:11.480 --> 00:14:16.399 be on crypto Twitter, some may be on YouTube mostly some are like you 195 00:14:16.440 --> 00:14:20.440 know, I prefer newsletters, or some are in a telegram group. You 196 00:14:20.519 --> 00:14:24.279 got people all over the place, and as a podcast host, I see 197 00:14:24.320 --> 00:14:26.159 that, right, I have to meet them and where they're at. How 198 00:14:26.159 --> 00:14:33.120 are you planning to do that? Is it just simply putting together a proper 199 00:14:33.159 --> 00:14:39.960 communication to proper information and getting it on those platforms, or is it vice 200 00:14:41.039 --> 00:14:45.759 versa where you're aggregating from all those platforms and telling people to come to your 201 00:14:46.799 --> 00:14:48.759 I don't know system or platform that you're working on. If that makes sense, 202 00:14:50.600 --> 00:14:52.320 Yeah, I think it's more of the latter. But we're also working 203 00:14:52.360 --> 00:14:56.519 with these teams to kind of make this a mutually beneficial thing because it makes 204 00:14:56.519 --> 00:15:01.000 sense for them to go reach their audiences and be like, hey, we 205 00:15:01.120 --> 00:15:03.799 partnered with this team. We want to access you better, and we want 206 00:15:03.840 --> 00:15:07.600 you to access our information better. Come get it here, and we want 207 00:15:07.639 --> 00:15:11.559 it to be all in one kind of service where you don't need to be 208 00:15:11.600 --> 00:15:16.639 constantly looking at like Twitter or discorder or the bajillion notifications you get to get 209 00:15:16.679 --> 00:15:20.559 access to this information. I think it's a problem that blockchains have where you 210 00:15:20.600 --> 00:15:24.000 know, they have so much going on twenty four to seven, and that's 211 00:15:24.000 --> 00:15:26.440 a great problem to have, but it's a problem nonetheless. And imagine how 212 00:15:26.639 --> 00:15:30.799 the people in the ecosystem feel, you know, like their full time job 213 00:15:30.919 --> 00:15:33.600 isn't, you know, monitoring these blockchains. So maybe for some of them 214 00:15:33.720 --> 00:15:39.120 they do that for fun, but they want to be informed and educated and 215 00:15:39.159 --> 00:15:41.960 activated, and we find that the best way to do that is by providing 216 00:15:43.000 --> 00:15:46.200 everything all in one place, and that's what we're trying to build out here. 217 00:15:46.879 --> 00:15:48.960 I love the idea, and I say that not because here on the 218 00:15:50.000 --> 00:15:56.320 podcast, but I've seen I've seen different blockchain projects where developers are complaining token 219 00:15:56.320 --> 00:16:02.360 holders that complain we haven't seen anything what it is working on? You know 220 00:16:03.679 --> 00:16:07.360 what's going on over there, right. I've seen those questions on crypto Twitter 221 00:16:07.360 --> 00:16:11.279 and people commenting on YouTube like this blockchain is dead, there's no activity. 222 00:16:11.519 --> 00:16:14.200 But then if you look at some of the stats or a GitHub or whatever, 223 00:16:14.360 --> 00:16:17.840 you see there's activity, but just the communications not there. They're not 224 00:16:17.879 --> 00:16:21.360 seeing I think a lot of people correlate some of these activities with price. 225 00:16:21.399 --> 00:16:25.440 If the price not's moving up, that means nothing's happening. Or if you 226 00:16:25.480 --> 00:16:27.559 know, the company is not great at tweeting out or whatever it is, 227 00:16:27.639 --> 00:16:32.279 Oh, nothing's happening, but they are actually working on things. So I 228 00:16:32.279 --> 00:16:36.399 think there's definitely a need there, and I've seen I won't mention which blockchain 229 00:16:36.480 --> 00:16:38.200 or community because I don't want to throw anybody on the bus, but I've 230 00:16:38.200 --> 00:16:42.600 seen the thing. Those concerns come up in questions like what's happening, what's 231 00:16:42.679 --> 00:16:47.200 what's being built? So I think there's definitely a need for your service. 232 00:16:47.759 --> 00:16:48.879 Yeah, thank you. I appreciate that, and I feel like, you 233 00:16:48.960 --> 00:16:52.200 know, that is kind of what we're trying to fix as well. We 234 00:16:52.240 --> 00:16:56.759 want these ecosystems to feel like they have that relationship with the foundations or teams 235 00:16:56.759 --> 00:17:02.039 that are building out these blockchains are like we mentioned, and so that's where 236 00:17:02.039 --> 00:17:04.759 the webinars come in. You know, I'll moderate things, we'll talk with 237 00:17:04.799 --> 00:17:08.960 them like a casual conversation, but it's also giving updates on like maybe something 238 00:17:08.960 --> 00:17:12.599 that happened like two months ago that really never got followed up with or the 239 00:17:12.640 --> 00:17:17.000 ecosystem doesn't know much about, and then also opening up the floor for Q 240 00:17:17.119 --> 00:17:19.559 and A for the exact reason that you mentioned that these people want answers, 241 00:17:19.759 --> 00:17:23.759 and not in a way to like attack them, but genuine curiosity to get 242 00:17:23.839 --> 00:17:29.880 updates that maybe they wouldn't be getting otherwise. Absolutely, And I think the 243 00:17:29.960 --> 00:17:33.519 other aspect is, look, not everyone is on the same technical level, 244 00:17:33.519 --> 00:17:37.519 and sometimes the language being used by you know, the foundations or whatever it 245 00:17:37.559 --> 00:17:41.000 is can be complex. Even myself we've been here since twenty sixteen. I'm 246 00:17:41.039 --> 00:17:44.480 like, what does this mean? I need to go take some time to 247 00:17:44.519 --> 00:17:48.440 read through this. But that can be broken down to layman's terms and communicate 248 00:17:48.480 --> 00:17:52.359 it even if it's an infographic, right or something just visual. Oh, 249 00:17:52.440 --> 00:17:55.960 I get it that this does this and this versus Here's a tweet that says 250 00:17:56.160 --> 00:17:57.839 we're making this upgrade and it does this, but I don't know what that 251 00:17:57.920 --> 00:18:02.799 language means, and I can't imagine you know, newbies coming in who are 252 00:18:02.880 --> 00:18:07.920 token holders trying to understand this stuff. Yeah, I mean that is exactly 253 00:18:07.960 --> 00:18:14.599 where my journalistic experience comes in. I make everything that is technical understandable in 254 00:18:14.640 --> 00:18:18.200 a non technical way. And that's not to say like the developers who are 255 00:18:18.200 --> 00:18:21.960 reading these updates feel like it's so dumb down and watered down, but it's 256 00:18:22.000 --> 00:18:26.599 just meeting everyone where they're at in a way that either if they're already you 257 00:18:26.640 --> 00:18:29.839 know, technical and they already understand this, that they could gain something new, 258 00:18:29.960 --> 00:18:32.839 and then if they're not technical and they don't understand it at all, 259 00:18:32.960 --> 00:18:37.200 they're gaining a lot. And it kind of goes down to that like segmentation 260 00:18:37.319 --> 00:18:42.799 part where in the future developers can get more technical upgrades or updates and understand 261 00:18:42.920 --> 00:18:47.000 like what's going on and how they could get involved, et cetera, and 262 00:18:47.039 --> 00:18:51.319 what's like new that they need to understand in a way that meets them where 263 00:18:51.359 --> 00:18:53.680 they're at. And then we could also do it in the non technical way 264 00:18:53.680 --> 00:18:57.920 for the broader audience. And that applies to you know, anyone from token 265 00:18:57.960 --> 00:19:03.680 holders to institutions who were watching, to vcs too, maybe even like I 266 00:19:03.759 --> 00:19:06.920 don't know, I don't want to say it, but regulators, you know, 267 00:19:07.039 --> 00:19:11.119 so they could understand better like what's happening there. So how did you 268 00:19:11.160 --> 00:19:14.839 and Pomp meet? And how how did this idea come about? What were 269 00:19:14.880 --> 00:19:17.880 you guys like like, hey, let's start this, you know, what's 270 00:19:17.880 --> 00:19:22.759 the story behind at Yeah? To backtrack, like ahead of everything, I 271 00:19:22.839 --> 00:19:26.240 kind of just told you was I've known Pomp for a number of years. 272 00:19:26.519 --> 00:19:30.920 We initially met because I was a reporter and he came to me. I 273 00:19:30.920 --> 00:19:33.720 think he just followed me on Twitter one day and like I was like, 274 00:19:33.720 --> 00:19:37.680 what is this big account doing following me? You know? And he DMed 275 00:19:37.759 --> 00:19:41.599 me and was like, oh, we'd love to catch up and we talk, 276 00:19:41.839 --> 00:19:44.960 and then you know, over time he just kind of came to me 277 00:19:45.039 --> 00:19:51.000 with like either professional relationships or like exclusives on companies he was launching. And 278 00:19:51.839 --> 00:19:55.680 I've covered him in the past, so we just had this like professional relationship 279 00:19:55.759 --> 00:20:00.720 kind of like already established. And then I would say earlier this year, 280 00:20:02.359 --> 00:20:04.680 he reached out and asked if I was based in New York and if I 281 00:20:04.680 --> 00:20:07.960 wanted to get some coffee, and I was like, sure, let's do 282 00:20:08.039 --> 00:20:12.039 it. I really thought either this was going to be a pitch to cover 283 00:20:12.119 --> 00:20:17.000 something or he just wanted to catch up, because that's just like the type 284 00:20:17.000 --> 00:20:21.160 of person that he is. And so we went to a coffee shop and 285 00:20:21.200 --> 00:20:23.720 we talked for about ninety minutes, and he asked how things were going at 286 00:20:23.720 --> 00:20:26.119 the time. I was at tech Crunch. I was a senior cryptore reporter 287 00:20:26.240 --> 00:20:30.920 there, and how things were going there, what I really wanted out of 288 00:20:30.920 --> 00:20:34.960 my career, and then this idea he had, and we talked about the 289 00:20:34.960 --> 00:20:40.119 idea, which is what token relations like the VV one, so like we're 290 00:20:40.160 --> 00:20:42.039 in V one now, but this was like the initial inception of the idea, 291 00:20:42.440 --> 00:20:45.200 and we kind of like went back and forth about the idea and I 292 00:20:45.240 --> 00:20:48.680 was like, yeah, that's so interesting, So are you asking me to 293 00:20:48.720 --> 00:20:52.039 cover it? And he was like, no, I'm asking you to start 294 00:20:52.039 --> 00:20:56.119 a company with me. And I was like, oh, okay, you 295 00:20:56.119 --> 00:21:00.200 know, because I didn't want to be presumptuous and like assume that's what he 296 00:21:00.240 --> 00:21:03.920 was getting at. But so that changed the conversation a bit and we talked 297 00:21:03.960 --> 00:21:06.880 more, and then of course I did my due diligence, spoke to other 298 00:21:06.880 --> 00:21:10.599 people who started business was with him, and I mean, I was pretty 299 00:21:10.720 --> 00:21:12.839 dead set on doing it. I'm really passionate about what we're building, and 300 00:21:14.119 --> 00:21:18.240 I don't think I would have left my previous role for anything. I got 301 00:21:18.279 --> 00:21:23.319 a lot of job offers from other media organizations and they're amazing institutions, but 302 00:21:23.559 --> 00:21:26.279 I was just very, very happy with what I was doing at tech Crunch, 303 00:21:26.319 --> 00:21:30.359 and so I always said, like, for me to leave tech Crunch 304 00:21:30.400 --> 00:21:34.000 to do something, it has to be like an extraordinary offer and opportunity for 305 00:21:34.039 --> 00:21:38.880 me to build something that I'm really interested in. That's awesome. So how 306 00:21:38.880 --> 00:21:44.880 does it feel to be Is it a FIR first time entrepreneur first time entrepreneur? 307 00:21:45.039 --> 00:21:51.000 Yes, it's definitely different. As someone who constantly interviewed people and spoke 308 00:21:51.039 --> 00:21:55.039 to founders all the time, I can definitely emphasize more with them now, 309 00:21:56.160 --> 00:22:00.559 and also being on the receiving end of interviewing is very different than interviewing itself, 310 00:22:02.279 --> 00:22:04.759 So that was an adjustment. But I think being a first time founder 311 00:22:04.880 --> 00:22:10.480 it's a lot of fun learning the ropes and how to do everything. Obviously, 312 00:22:10.559 --> 00:22:12.799 pomp has built a number of companies so it's nice to work with him 313 00:22:12.839 --> 00:22:15.880 hand in hand to build this out with him, and I'm just really excited 314 00:22:15.880 --> 00:22:21.079 about like what we're going to be doing. Are you guys doing any type 315 00:22:21.119 --> 00:22:23.920 of capital raises or anything like that right now? You're just you know, 316 00:22:23.960 --> 00:22:30.319 building, heads down building, just heads down building. Obviously, pomp is 317 00:22:30.359 --> 00:22:33.799 an entrepreneur and investor, so he is backing the company. And but we 318 00:22:33.799 --> 00:22:40.279 were profitable from day one, so I think we don't necessarily need funds right 319 00:22:40.319 --> 00:22:42.440 now, but if we do down the line, he said in the past, 320 00:22:42.480 --> 00:22:47.400 we'll do whatever it takes to win, so we'll hold him to that 321 00:22:47.599 --> 00:22:52.920 for sure. So what's on your roadmap for remainder to the year. Yeah, 322 00:22:52.960 --> 00:22:55.839 so we're hiring, we're building out a team in a conscious way. 323 00:22:55.880 --> 00:22:57.680 I don't want to overscale. I feel like so many times people are like, 324 00:22:59.200 --> 00:23:00.720 oh, your team needs to be bigger, or how you're doing this, 325 00:23:00.880 --> 00:23:03.839 you know, and like, we just want to do it in a 326 00:23:03.880 --> 00:23:07.680 way that makes sense and like fits our kind of like evolution, right, 327 00:23:08.000 --> 00:23:11.200 And so we're doing that, and then we're building out the tech platform later 328 00:23:11.240 --> 00:23:15.680 this year to further deep in that connection between those entities and their ecosystems and 329 00:23:15.720 --> 00:23:19.559 token holders, and we kind of like want to walk before we run, 330 00:23:21.279 --> 00:23:25.279 but also ship products and test out what does and doesn't work with the market 331 00:23:25.319 --> 00:23:29.720 and adjust accordingly. I feel like so many times startups will raise a ton 332 00:23:29.720 --> 00:23:33.079 of money and then they'll be building on the back end and then the hype 333 00:23:33.119 --> 00:23:37.039 is over or it wasn't a fit that they thought it would be, And 334 00:23:37.119 --> 00:23:41.200 we find that building the product and putting it out in the market and receiving 335 00:23:41.279 --> 00:23:45.599 market feedback is so valuable, and then you know, we could adjust and 336 00:23:45.640 --> 00:23:49.039 tinker it as needed, but just having it out there and like putting iterations 337 00:23:49.039 --> 00:23:53.000 out and kind of improving it over time is like the route that we see 338 00:23:53.039 --> 00:23:59.880 as the most makes sense. Yeah, that's that's definitely a smart way to 339 00:23:59.880 --> 00:24:03.480 go about it and test the waters and do a lot of trial in there. 340 00:24:03.079 --> 00:24:07.640 That's awesome. I'm excited for you guys. And let's talk about the 341 00:24:07.640 --> 00:24:12.240 crypto market at large. Obviously you're on the building side of things. Now, 342 00:24:14.759 --> 00:24:17.160 what do you think is happening with the market. You know, the 343 00:24:17.160 --> 00:24:22.000 bigcoin ets was crazy, incredible run up for bitcoin. Do you foresee more 344 00:24:22.839 --> 00:24:29.079 run up later this year into twenty twenty five. Yeah, listen, I'm 345 00:24:29.119 --> 00:24:33.799 not like a perfect market analyst, you know, I spoke to analysts throughout 346 00:24:33.799 --> 00:24:37.519 my career. But I think on the front of spot pitcoin ets we saw 347 00:24:37.519 --> 00:24:41.400 a lot of demand initially, which is great. That proved that there was 348 00:24:41.440 --> 00:24:45.039 a need for this, and then I think we're almost in like a little 349 00:24:45.079 --> 00:24:49.599 bit of a plateau moment where it takes time for these advisors to one understand 350 00:24:49.680 --> 00:24:55.640 what spotpitcoin ETFs are, to get them improved internally, and three then educate 351 00:24:55.920 --> 00:24:59.839 their user base. I guess it's the simplest way to put it, or 352 00:25:00.400 --> 00:25:03.839 their customers is how I should say it. And so right now we're at 353 00:25:03.839 --> 00:25:07.559 this position where I think that kind of segment is happening, and then maybe 354 00:25:07.599 --> 00:25:11.119 in a couple months time we'll see it go up more. I think also 355 00:25:11.160 --> 00:25:17.680 the conversations around the spot Ethereum ETFs and whether or not those will be delayed 356 00:25:17.799 --> 00:25:22.480 or denied is also up in the air. But right now it's Bitcoin's moment 357 00:25:22.559 --> 00:25:26.400 to shine, especially with the spot bitcoin ETFs that were approved back in January, 358 00:25:26.839 --> 00:25:30.599 and so it's good that they're not back to back because sometimes when you 359 00:25:30.799 --> 00:25:34.279 offer too much, it kind of loses like the special value to it in 360 00:25:34.319 --> 00:25:37.799 my opinion, and so I don't think the SEC is looking at it that 361 00:25:37.799 --> 00:25:42.880 way. But I'm looking at it from like a tactical market standpoint, and 362 00:25:45.039 --> 00:25:48.680 I think with the spot bitcoin ETFs like there's a lot of value there and 363 00:25:48.880 --> 00:25:53.680 obviously based off like JP Morgan and Wells Fargo and Sussequana, like International Group, 364 00:25:53.720 --> 00:25:59.240 all these different entities buying a ton of bitcoin through these vehicles proves the 365 00:25:59.279 --> 00:26:04.559 market need. Now, the other hot topic is crypto regulations and its impact 366 00:26:04.680 --> 00:26:08.839 on politics and elections. There's so many things happening last week, SAB one 367 00:26:08.880 --> 00:26:12.680 two one, the SEC rule repeal, the FIT bill in the House is 368 00:26:12.680 --> 00:26:15.039 coming up for a vote in a couple of weeks. What are your thoughts? 369 00:26:15.160 --> 00:26:19.440 And uh, you know Donald Trump last week saying I support crypto It's 370 00:26:19.480 --> 00:26:23.119 great, right, No, I know, it was definitely like the hot 371 00:26:23.160 --> 00:26:26.680 topic on crypto Twitter for sure, And I mean, like the crypto space 372 00:26:26.839 --> 00:26:32.240 has a dire need for regulatory clarity. That's on one front, and then 373 00:26:32.240 --> 00:26:37.279 there's also a need for guidance and direction. I've said this before, but 374 00:26:37.440 --> 00:26:41.079 I think you know, people who are one issue voters, I think that's 375 00:26:41.119 --> 00:26:44.759 fair. You know, it applies across the industry, and if that passion 376 00:26:44.920 --> 00:26:48.759 lies with crypto, I think that's totally fair. And I think Donald Trump 377 00:26:48.759 --> 00:26:51.400 he kind of did a one to eighty. I think during his first term 378 00:26:51.559 --> 00:26:53.839 he said he didn't really care for crypto, etc. But then in between 379 00:26:53.839 --> 00:26:56.680 this term, like last term, and then like his run up for this 380 00:26:56.799 --> 00:27:00.480 election, he you know, has a crypt wallet with millions of dollars in 381 00:27:00.480 --> 00:27:03.680 crypto in it, and he has his NFT collection and his wife has launched 382 00:27:03.759 --> 00:27:07.160 NFT collections, and you know him speaking at mar A Lago saying like, 383 00:27:07.400 --> 00:27:10.920 if you're a pro crypto, vote for me. Like Biden doesn't know what 384 00:27:11.039 --> 00:27:14.599 he's talking about. Paraphrasing, of course, but maybe that would be something 385 00:27:14.599 --> 00:27:21.119 he would say. And I think there's a lot of value there in understanding 386 00:27:21.160 --> 00:27:25.480 that this is like a political tactic, but it's also, you know, 387 00:27:25.559 --> 00:27:29.880 a stance on crypto that we haven't really gotten before. I think RFK Junior 388 00:27:29.920 --> 00:27:34.160 has put out some stances before, but it isn't really something that is commonly 389 00:27:34.200 --> 00:27:38.480 talked about. And the Biden administration has made it pretty clear that they're not 390 00:27:38.680 --> 00:27:42.720 extremely pro crypto. And that's not to say like there aren't Democrats who are 391 00:27:42.759 --> 00:27:45.200 pro crypto. I think, you know, in response to that bill, 392 00:27:45.240 --> 00:27:48.759 there we were about twenty one who were against it, and they sided with 393 00:27:48.799 --> 00:27:53.279 the Republicans on that if referring to like the stable coin one. And I 394 00:27:53.279 --> 00:27:56.440 think it's it's hard to navigate in the US right now, and I hear 395 00:27:56.480 --> 00:28:02.000 it firsthand from founders and being a founder in space, it's it's unclear. 396 00:28:03.119 --> 00:28:07.480 Instead of regulating the industry through new guidelines that can pertain to this industry, 397 00:28:07.680 --> 00:28:11.759 it's been done through an enforcement, which is unfortunate for sure. Yeah, 398 00:28:11.880 --> 00:28:15.359 and the thing I was telling people about with Donald Trump, forget about the 399 00:28:15.400 --> 00:28:18.880 person from it could have been somebody else. But the fact that a former 400 00:28:19.000 --> 00:28:25.880 president and a presidential candidate who is the candidate for the Republicans is saying this 401 00:28:26.240 --> 00:28:30.319 is significant. I think it just opens up a whole new door and it 402 00:28:30.359 --> 00:28:33.880 could cause game theory. Well, does that force Biden's hand to now say 403 00:28:33.880 --> 00:28:37.559 well, I got a pandur say the crypto industry and get those votes and 404 00:28:37.640 --> 00:28:41.400 campaign donations. It's just I don't know. It was like a moment, 405 00:28:41.480 --> 00:28:45.000 like a tipping point politically, And once again it's not Donald Trump per se, 406 00:28:45.119 --> 00:28:48.680 just that seat that position that you know that he's saying that that's pretty 407 00:28:48.680 --> 00:28:52.440 incredible. No, one hundred percent. I think it's like forty million Americans 408 00:28:52.480 --> 00:28:57.480 own crypto something around that number, and it's that's a significant amount of voters. 409 00:28:57.559 --> 00:29:00.440 And whether or not, again those people are one issue vote or some 410 00:29:00.440 --> 00:29:03.400 people might just own crypto and that's like not their passion, you know. 411 00:29:03.759 --> 00:29:07.000 But then there are a fair amount of people who are building crypto companies who 412 00:29:07.000 --> 00:29:11.960 were deeply invested in this space that really do see that as their one issue 413 00:29:11.039 --> 00:29:17.200 vote or a weighing factor in a plethora of issues. And whether or not 414 00:29:17.279 --> 00:29:19.960 that's something that the Biden administration sees valuable, that's up to them. They 415 00:29:21.000 --> 00:29:23.920 could also go against it and maybe gain some votes against people who are anti 416 00:29:25.000 --> 00:29:27.119 crypto, you know. So there's a lot of routes that they could go. 417 00:29:27.119 --> 00:29:30.240 And I'm not like a political strategist, so this is beyond you know, 418 00:29:30.279 --> 00:29:34.359 my wheelhouse, but just as someone who's watching the market and has covered 419 00:29:34.400 --> 00:29:37.880 a lot of regulatory uncertainty in the space, that's how I'm looking at it 420 00:29:38.759 --> 00:29:45.160 now. Question for you, you covered like we were talking about before ftx 421 00:29:45.160 --> 00:29:48.680 Celsius and Boy twenty two was brew Oh my gosh, yeah, brutal. 422 00:29:49.119 --> 00:29:53.400 But then I feel like black Rock has pushed away the dark, rainy clouds 423 00:29:53.400 --> 00:29:57.599 that were over the market, right with these ETFs and all of walltreet Fidelity 424 00:29:57.640 --> 00:30:00.480 and all these guys. So it's like we turned a new leaf right where 425 00:30:00.480 --> 00:30:04.759 it's like people don't even think about FTX anymore. They don't think about Celsius. 426 00:30:04.799 --> 00:30:08.839 It's like it almost like it never happened. So you think we're in 427 00:30:08.880 --> 00:30:14.400 the clear here, like maybe we've learned our lessons. The adults in the 428 00:30:14.519 --> 00:30:19.279 room, so to speak, are here. I think the crypto industry has 429 00:30:19.359 --> 00:30:25.039 kind of moved on from the FTX situation, Celsius, et cetera. I 430 00:30:25.039 --> 00:30:29.319 think crypto was tired of hearing about it. Maybe the creditors aren't because they 431 00:30:29.319 --> 00:30:33.160 want their money back, but everyone else is like, enough of SPF, 432 00:30:33.720 --> 00:30:38.000 let's just move on. And then I think the mainstream world outside of the 433 00:30:38.000 --> 00:30:45.079 crypto bubble still views the crypto industry as like the FTX collapse. A lot 434 00:30:45.079 --> 00:30:49.200 of people at the time when that happened, they didn't even know what it 435 00:30:49.359 --> 00:30:52.640 was, but they knew it was bad for the industry, and people were 436 00:30:52.680 --> 00:30:55.519 like texting me like, oh, do you work for FTX, And I'm 437 00:30:55.559 --> 00:30:57.240 like, no, I don't work for FDx. But like they don't even 438 00:30:57.279 --> 00:31:02.240 have an understanding of like the differences, you know, like they think Coinbase, 439 00:31:02.359 --> 00:31:04.000 FTX, all these things are like one thing. And that just shows 440 00:31:04.039 --> 00:31:07.480 like people outside of the crypto world really don't know much about what's going on 441 00:31:07.519 --> 00:31:10.960 in here, and you can't blame them, like I'm not a professional, 442 00:31:10.960 --> 00:31:12.599 and like the electric vehicle world, I don't know why that came to mind, 443 00:31:12.799 --> 00:31:17.799 or like AI, you know, but with the people inside the AI 444 00:31:17.880 --> 00:31:22.279 industry, they know like every single detail. And so for crypto I think 445 00:31:22.680 --> 00:31:26.799 FTX has kind of been like unfortunately a taint on the industry to the external 446 00:31:26.839 --> 00:31:33.240 world, especially for political people who got duped by him and took his donations, 447 00:31:33.279 --> 00:31:37.279 and so that's going to take some time to recover. But the crypto 448 00:31:37.279 --> 00:31:41.640 industry, you know, has broad and scams, but so does every industry 449 00:31:41.680 --> 00:31:45.160 out there. And I think people always like to point fingers at the crypto 450 00:31:45.200 --> 00:31:49.400 space, but we see that in the traditional financial world all the time, 451 00:31:49.799 --> 00:31:52.839 and we see it across every industry. It's not just unique to us, 452 00:31:53.400 --> 00:31:59.079 and that's just something that is a reminder and there's also really great innovations going 453 00:31:59.119 --> 00:32:01.039 on in this space, as long as we kind of like keep building towards 454 00:32:01.119 --> 00:32:06.720 that roadmap and focusing towards the future of like what's good instead of just like 455 00:32:06.799 --> 00:32:13.200 highlighting bad actors for views. I think that's what's more valuable. Well, 456 00:32:13.240 --> 00:32:15.839 put, I got some wrap up questions here for you. First, if 457 00:32:15.880 --> 00:32:22.880 you could create your own metaverse, what would the theme be. I feel 458 00:32:22.880 --> 00:32:28.960 like maybe like a little like beach techno concert, Like you could have it 459 00:32:29.000 --> 00:32:30.720 like playing in the background. You could like go in there and hear like 460 00:32:30.759 --> 00:32:36.279 your favorite DJs and like the ocean waves and everything. That's like my ideal 461 00:32:36.480 --> 00:32:38.599 That would be like my ideal day. So I'm creating my ideal day in 462 00:32:38.640 --> 00:32:42.960 the metaverse. I guess that's that's where I'd go. When you say that, 463 00:32:42.960 --> 00:32:45.200 I don't know why. I thought about like the Greek islands like Santorini 464 00:32:45.240 --> 00:32:51.400 and Pardia. Yeah, yeah, that sounds about right. I just love 465 00:32:51.440 --> 00:32:55.319 the beach and like relaxing, and for sure here the same with me. 466 00:32:55.640 --> 00:32:59.599 I love the water, I love being at the beach, so that'd be 467 00:32:59.599 --> 00:33:07.319 awesome. Rapid fire questions. Favorite food like Mexican food, Maybe like tacos. 468 00:33:07.279 --> 00:33:14.559 Favorite musician or band. The first one that comes to mind is Kanye 469 00:33:14.640 --> 00:33:17.599 West, like old Kanye, but I also like techno like Yellow Claw, 470 00:33:17.960 --> 00:33:22.599 Malpi, dom Dala, that side of the World if you if your listeners 471 00:33:22.640 --> 00:33:29.960 know those people for sure. Favorite movie, Oh my gosh. I don't 472 00:33:30.000 --> 00:33:39.039 really watch movies often, but I don't know a favorite movie. I don't 473 00:33:39.039 --> 00:33:43.440 think I have one. If people have good movies, let me know. 474 00:33:45.559 --> 00:33:51.759 Favorite book. Favorite crypto book that I've read would be Number Go Up by 475 00:33:52.039 --> 00:33:55.880 Zeke Fox. I thought it was well written and entertaining, but femal. 476 00:33:57.240 --> 00:34:02.039 Favorite normal book that I've read recently was Without a Doubt by Serbi Sarna. 477 00:34:02.200 --> 00:34:08.119 She is one of the YC partners and it's super interesting, awesome. And 478 00:34:08.159 --> 00:34:13.000 when you're not working on token relations, what are you doing for fun? 479 00:34:14.719 --> 00:34:16.480 I love going for walks. I live in New York City. I try 480 00:34:16.480 --> 00:34:21.440 to walk everywhere and anywhere, even if it's an hour long walk. And 481 00:34:21.559 --> 00:34:27.079 I also like doing yoga, cycling, running that's kind of my fun thing, 482 00:34:27.159 --> 00:34:30.280 or going to concerts if I can on the weekends if I have the 483 00:34:30.320 --> 00:34:36.679 time now. And yeah, cooking, I like cooking awesome. Jacqueline A. 484 00:34:36.719 --> 00:34:39.199 Pleasure, and we'll have to have you back on as things progress with 485 00:34:39.239 --> 00:34:43.360 token relations, But thank you so much for joining me. Thanks Tony, 486 00:34:43.400 --> 00:34:44.119 I appreciate it.