1 00:00:01,120 --> 00:00:07,280 You're listening to the Mind Over Murder podcast. My name is Bill Thomas. 2 00:00:07,799 --> 00:00:12,080 I'm a writer, consulting, producer, and now podcaster. I am now 3 00:00:12,119 --> 00:00:16,039 trying to use my experience as the brother of a murder victim to help other 4 00:00:16,120 --> 00:00:20,280 victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book on the unsolved Colonial Parkway 5 00:00:20,359 --> 00:00:24,760 murders and I'm the co administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together with 6 00:00:24,839 --> 00:00:29,120 Kristin Dilly. My name is Kristin Dilly. I'm a writer, a researcher, 7 00:00:29,320 --> 00:00:32,840 a teacher, and a victim's advocate, as well as the social media 8 00:00:32,920 --> 00:00:37,880 manager and co administrator for the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook page with my partner in 9 00:00:37,920 --> 00:00:49,960 crime, Bill Thomas. Welcome to My ever Murder. I'm Kristin Dilly and 10 00:00:50,039 --> 00:00:54,479 I'm Bill Thomas, and we're joined again by author Kate Miles here to talk 11 00:00:54,520 --> 00:01:00,280 to us about her award winning, multiple award winning book, Trailed Woman's Quest 12 00:01:00,399 --> 00:01:03,439 to Solve the Shenandoah Murders. Kate, thank you for joining us again. 13 00:01:03,120 --> 00:01:07,599 I can't believe you want to have me back, but I'm so grateful now 14 00:01:07,640 --> 00:01:11,680 that you're going into paperback, which is a really big deal. After the 15 00:01:11,719 --> 00:01:15,000 success of the hardcover book, this is a great time to have a follow 16 00:01:15,079 --> 00:01:19,560 up conversation and find out all the good things that have been generated by your 17 00:01:19,599 --> 00:01:25,879 writing and publication of Triut. So start by bragging in a little bit. 18 00:01:25,920 --> 00:01:29,120 Tell us about all the awards you've won, because you've won a lot and 19 00:01:29,159 --> 00:01:32,000 it's really impressive. So do the brag thing, and it doesn't even have 20 00:01:32,040 --> 00:01:37,400 to be humble brag. I've just been so grateful for the reception of this 21 00:01:37,439 --> 00:01:42,599 book, and I'm particularly grateful by how many people have been impacted on either 22 00:01:42,640 --> 00:01:46,760 a primary or secondary basis by this particular crime who have reached out. So 23 00:01:46,959 --> 00:01:51,760 for me, that's definitely more important than any possible award. But the book 24 00:01:51,799 --> 00:01:56,040 has done quite well and we're really excited at the New York Times named one 25 00:01:56,040 --> 00:02:00,040 of the best true crime books of the year. That was great. The 26 00:02:00,159 --> 00:02:05,719 audio book, which is really ably and expertly narrated by GABRAA. Zuckman, 27 00:02:06,000 --> 00:02:10,360 won several awards. We just won the Main Literary Award for twenty twenty three. 28 00:02:10,560 --> 00:02:15,800 Book was a finalist for the Edgar Award. We just now learned that 29 00:02:15,879 --> 00:02:21,319 the book has just been named a finalist for the Virginia Book Award Reader's Choice, 30 00:02:21,360 --> 00:02:27,000 so quick overview, I'm really exciting all around. That is so fantastic. 31 00:02:27,199 --> 00:02:31,680 Oh my gosh, that's amazing. Congratulations on all of that. It's 32 00:02:31,759 --> 00:02:38,199 just really great to know that this story resonates with people. You all know 33 00:02:38,280 --> 00:02:40,800 that when you're in the trenches and thinking so much about a particular crime or 34 00:02:40,840 --> 00:02:46,120 a particular issue, it gets all consuming for you. But sometimes it's hard 35 00:02:46,159 --> 00:02:49,919 to know whether or not it's going to be all consuming for people who read 36 00:02:50,000 --> 00:02:53,879 and listen to true crime as well. But reading the reviews, Kate, 37 00:02:53,039 --> 00:03:00,319 people really talk about how much they were drawn into Julian Lawley's story by reading 38 00:03:00,400 --> 00:03:05,599 Trailed, and how compelling they thought it was. And yes, there's a 39 00:03:05,800 --> 00:03:09,439 very sad component to this unsolved murder of these two beautiful young women, but 40 00:03:09,719 --> 00:03:14,719 it's a story that just pulled you in. Well, And thank you for 41 00:03:14,759 --> 00:03:17,439 saying that. The most important thing for me all along has really been to 42 00:03:17,520 --> 00:03:23,759 foreground the stories of Lolly and Julie, primarily obviously as living, breathing humans 43 00:03:23,800 --> 00:03:30,080 who were really just exemplary leaders in their fields, and also in love, 44 00:03:30,199 --> 00:03:32,520 and telling that love story was really important to me, And then of course, 45 00:03:34,080 --> 00:03:38,560 honoring them as victims as well as living people as well, and making 46 00:03:38,599 --> 00:03:43,080 sure people understand just what was taken away, not only from friends and family, 47 00:03:43,120 --> 00:03:46,280 but I think also the larger public when we lost these two individuals. 48 00:03:47,120 --> 00:03:51,000 I do want to make sure that we talk a little bit more about your 49 00:03:51,120 --> 00:03:54,680 recent Library of Virginia speech that you did. But I really liked the fact 50 00:03:54,680 --> 00:04:00,599 that you started out with pictures of Lolly and Julie, and you grounded everything 51 00:04:00,960 --> 00:04:05,360 in your presentation that way, with the fact that we are concerned primarily about 52 00:04:05,360 --> 00:04:08,919 these two women, and I like that. I appreciated it, and I 53 00:04:08,919 --> 00:04:13,080 could tell the audience did too. With the book going into paperback, what 54 00:04:13,520 --> 00:04:16,959 changes if any, were made to the book between the version that we have 55 00:04:17,319 --> 00:04:23,759 several copies on our bookshelves and the new version that is out in paperback. 56 00:04:23,839 --> 00:04:29,480 Now, what got changed if anything? In general, paperbacks are not changed. 57 00:04:29,560 --> 00:04:32,399 When we find a few typographical errors or things like that, those sorts 58 00:04:32,439 --> 00:04:38,040 of things might get changed. But really the book reads pretty much exactly as 59 00:04:38,160 --> 00:04:42,120 it was written. Bill and I were lucky enough to get advanced reader copies. 60 00:04:42,160 --> 00:04:45,160 But the one thing I know the paperback has in it that our arcs 61 00:04:45,279 --> 00:04:47,920 did not is. There are a lot of wonderful photographs and maps in there. 62 00:04:48,279 --> 00:04:50,720 Can you tell us a little bit about, like how did you come 63 00:04:50,720 --> 00:04:55,079 into possession of those and why was it so important to include those in the 64 00:04:55,079 --> 00:05:00,439 book? Sure? I have worked with a really wonderful cartographer on all of 65 00:05:00,439 --> 00:05:04,519 my books. Her name is Margot Carpenter and her companies called Heartdale Maps, 66 00:05:04,519 --> 00:05:11,160 and she does a really brilliant job of interpreting not just data but also stories 67 00:05:11,399 --> 00:05:15,439 in order to tell something. And she and I work together to create a 68 00:05:15,480 --> 00:05:17,240 series of maps for the book, and she did a really great job to 69 00:05:17,319 --> 00:05:21,800 of quietly evoking the style of the National Park Service maps and guidebooks and things 70 00:05:21,879 --> 00:05:26,920 like that. But it was really important for me for readers to first of 71 00:05:26,920 --> 00:05:31,439 all understand in a general way place and starting on a kind of macro level, 72 00:05:31,439 --> 00:05:35,319 with Shenandoah Park as a whole, it's a really peculiar National park in 73 00:05:35,399 --> 00:05:39,959 some ways, in the way, especially in the fact that it's this long, 74 00:05:40,160 --> 00:05:45,639 kind of winding park with one major road through it and then basically tumbles 75 00:05:45,680 --> 00:05:49,079 down both sides of a mountain, and so the idea of backcountry means something 76 00:05:49,199 --> 00:05:54,480 very different in that park than it does and say Zion or Bryce or something 77 00:05:54,519 --> 00:05:59,160 like that. And so I wanted readers to understand both that and the proximity 78 00:05:59,360 --> 00:06:03,800 to population centers, to parking lots, to major roads and things like that, 79 00:06:03,920 --> 00:06:08,240 which I think is ultimately relevant when we think about who might have done 80 00:06:08,319 --> 00:06:12,240 this and how and why. I also really wanted folks to get a sense 81 00:06:12,240 --> 00:06:16,879 of the murder scene and how it relates to the area around Skyland Lodge. 82 00:06:17,120 --> 00:06:20,639 That was also really important to me. And then equally, if not more 83 00:06:20,680 --> 00:06:26,279 importantly, was making sure that we could put the context of these two murders 84 00:06:26,759 --> 00:06:31,160 within a larger context of a group of women, mostly young women, most 85 00:06:31,240 --> 00:06:35,600 of whom had some real I think physical similarities to Lolly and Julie, who 86 00:06:35,680 --> 00:06:40,639 were killed over the course of a year and a half in a fairly small 87 00:06:40,720 --> 00:06:45,279 circumference in what is largely rural Virginia. And I think when you see that 88 00:06:45,480 --> 00:06:49,279 on paper, the idea that this was an isolated incident becomes harder to accept. 89 00:06:50,040 --> 00:06:56,040 How do you go about getting permission to use photographs? Kate? I 90 00:06:56,079 --> 00:06:59,399 know that you've got a lot of amazing photographs, many of which were never 91 00:06:59,439 --> 00:07:03,720 published, but for how did you go about getting permissions that's a great question. 92 00:07:04,040 --> 00:07:09,600 Some of the photographs were published by the FBI. They were given to 93 00:07:09,759 --> 00:07:15,639 the FBI by the families, and so the FBI used them in press releases 94 00:07:15,759 --> 00:07:19,720 and posters and things like that. So they have permission to grant the media 95 00:07:20,240 --> 00:07:24,800 permission, and some of the photographs came from there. But Lolly and Julie's 96 00:07:24,800 --> 00:07:29,600 friends and family were the ones who supplied some of my very favorite photos of 97 00:07:29,639 --> 00:07:32,000 them. And obviously Lolly and Julie can't consent to the photos, and it 98 00:07:32,000 --> 00:07:35,959 would be ideal if they could, but the friends giving them to me offered 99 00:07:36,000 --> 00:07:41,000 their consent. And I think that, you know what I really love about 100 00:07:41,000 --> 00:07:44,720 them is I think it really just gets at their personalities and their love of 101 00:07:44,759 --> 00:07:47,279 life and their humanity. And again, I think it's just really important that 102 00:07:47,360 --> 00:07:54,199 people know that and really understand who these people were. Some of the photographs 103 00:07:54,240 --> 00:07:58,879 were actually taken by the two women themselves. How did you end up with 104 00:07:59,319 --> 00:08:03,279 those photos there from one of their cameras? Correct, So, Lollie was 105 00:08:03,319 --> 00:08:09,800 a very avid photographer and she had brought her camera on the trip, So 106 00:08:09,040 --> 00:08:15,079 that became really important, I think for the investigation. Initially because although the 107 00:08:15,120 --> 00:08:18,600 time stamp was way off on her camera. I would say something like January 108 00:08:18,720 --> 00:08:24,560 first, nineteen hundred or something like. We can't know the exact days, 109 00:08:24,600 --> 00:08:26,720 but we can know the chronology of some of the places where they were in 110 00:08:26,800 --> 00:08:31,440 the park. That, coupled with their journals, coupled with their backcountry permits, 111 00:08:31,600 --> 00:08:35,840 allows us to recreate their time in the park in really good detail. 112 00:08:37,360 --> 00:08:41,639 There was also a young couple at the time who were vacationing in the park 113 00:08:41,679 --> 00:08:45,559 and they had run into Lolly and Julie and just struck up a conversation and 114 00:08:45,600 --> 00:08:48,559 they all took photos of each other. That became relevant as well too in 115 00:08:48,639 --> 00:08:54,320 terms of understanding where Lolly and Julie were and making identifications and things. And 116 00:08:54,600 --> 00:08:58,240 the woman who had been the wife of that couple they're now divorced, she 117 00:08:58,480 --> 00:09:01,320 had sent those photos to me as well too. So it's nice, I 118 00:09:01,320 --> 00:09:05,559 think, to be able to do this triangulation so that we can say, 119 00:09:05,679 --> 00:09:09,960 for relatives, certain we know they were at X place or why place, 120 00:09:09,039 --> 00:09:13,519 and at least be able to approximate when you brought up the FBI already, 121 00:09:13,559 --> 00:09:18,320 So I guess let's go ahead and dive into talking about their response and really 122 00:09:18,360 --> 00:09:22,399 not just the FBI, though, let's talk about the response from law enforcement 123 00:09:22,960 --> 00:09:28,240 National Park Service as well. What has their response been in relation to the 124 00:09:28,279 --> 00:09:35,440 book. It has been hugely varied. Recently, an attorney for the Department 125 00:09:35,480 --> 00:09:39,000 of Justice recently reached out to me and told me he had read the book, 126 00:09:39,240 --> 00:09:41,759 and he asked me if I would be willing to come talk to the 127 00:09:41,840 --> 00:09:46,600 DOJ to ensure that this kind of investigation and these kind of foibles don't happen 128 00:09:46,639 --> 00:09:50,879 again. That to me, was a huge endorsement of the research in the 129 00:09:50,919 --> 00:09:54,440 book, I think, especially where the ideas of confirmation bias come in and 130 00:09:54,600 --> 00:09:58,799 some of the interview and interrogation techniques that I outline, which I think are 131 00:10:00,399 --> 00:10:05,480 morally questionable at best, So that was really great. I've heard second hand 132 00:10:05,799 --> 00:10:11,759 from the family of some of the other surviving victims in Virginia that those law 133 00:10:11,840 --> 00:10:16,080 enforcement officials have been reading the book and using the book to re examine some 134 00:10:16,200 --> 00:10:20,120 of those cases. They haven't reached out to me, which I find peculiar, 135 00:10:20,200 --> 00:10:22,080 but at least they're reading it, so that's something. And then I 136 00:10:22,120 --> 00:10:28,679 also have heard second hand that the publication of the book prompted the FBI to 137 00:10:28,320 --> 00:10:33,879 re examine the case and to re examine some of the Park Service law enforcement 138 00:10:35,000 --> 00:10:39,399 rangers who were involved in the case. And I've heard again second hand that 139 00:10:39,440 --> 00:10:41,799 they even went so far as to try to obtain some DNA swabs from some 140 00:10:41,840 --> 00:10:50,519 of the rangers. They are understandably not pleased. The reaction from at least 141 00:10:50,559 --> 00:10:56,159 one of them in particular has been very loud, I think, and so 142 00:10:56,519 --> 00:11:01,039 that's obviously not my preferred reaction, But I think it's good that this information 143 00:11:01,120 --> 00:11:05,519 is hitting a nerve, and I think maybe the more nerves it hits, 144 00:11:05,639 --> 00:11:09,240 the more likely it will be that the story is propelled forward, and that 145 00:11:09,279 --> 00:11:16,279 the investigation is propelled forward. As the brother of a murder victim whose sister's 146 00:11:16,360 --> 00:11:22,440 case is sometimes linked with the murder of Lally and Julie, I will just 147 00:11:22,480 --> 00:11:26,639 say this should have been done years ago, and the fact that the FBI 148 00:11:28,360 --> 00:11:33,039 and the National Park Service and other law enforcement agencies are circling back around and 149 00:11:33,080 --> 00:11:43,320 collecting DNA samples from investigators and first responders now more than twenty six years after 150 00:11:43,799 --> 00:11:50,960 their murders in the Shenandoah is shocking. This should have been done decades ago, 151 00:11:52,200 --> 00:11:56,360 and it shouldn't take all of the work and the research that you've done 152 00:11:56,759 --> 00:12:03,120 to produce Trailed, to get the FBI and the National Park Service to do 153 00:12:03,200 --> 00:12:07,039 something that they should have done twenty something years ago. And I can't imagine 154 00:12:07,080 --> 00:12:11,240 how frustrating it is to be the family member of a victim and know that 155 00:12:11,600 --> 00:12:16,679 so much hasn't been done. It's for me as a journalist, it's frustrating, 156 00:12:16,720 --> 00:12:20,399 and I don't have that personal connection. And that's one of the things 157 00:12:20,399 --> 00:12:24,159 that I like to try to highlight when I'm talking about this book is the 158 00:12:24,279 --> 00:12:28,679 number of cold cases out in the country, the number of people like you 159 00:12:28,159 --> 00:12:33,320 who deserve answers and deserve a thorough investigation and have never had it. The 160 00:12:33,399 --> 00:12:37,279 number of rape kits and DNA samples that we've never attested, the number of 161 00:12:37,399 --> 00:12:41,159 DNA that we've never loaded to codis. And this is a national endemic problem, 162 00:12:41,200 --> 00:12:45,080 and it's a crisis. I think it's a crisis of justice that we 163 00:12:45,159 --> 00:12:48,279 really need to resolve. I'm not hinting, by the way that any of 164 00:12:48,360 --> 00:12:54,240 these people are directly involved, or that someone in law enforcement is a murderer. 165 00:12:54,519 --> 00:12:58,159 I'm not saying that, But what I am saying is you would think 166 00:12:58,879 --> 00:13:03,440 I understand that this stuff didn't happen. Back in nineteen eighty six, when 167 00:13:03,879 --> 00:13:09,759 my sister Kathy and her girlfriend Rebecca Dowski were murdered, DNA hadn't come out 168 00:13:09,759 --> 00:13:13,039 of the lab. But by the time we get to nineteen ninety six, 169 00:13:13,440 --> 00:13:18,840 when Lollie and Julie are murdered, DNA has made its way out of the 170 00:13:18,919 --> 00:13:24,000 lab, thankfully, and just for elimination purposes. You would think that everyone 171 00:13:24,120 --> 00:13:31,559 involved in responding to these murders and investigating these murders would have submitted their DNA. 172 00:13:31,759 --> 00:13:35,679 Heck, I submitted my DNA at the FBI's request about five or six 173 00:13:35,759 --> 00:13:41,039 years ago. Again because my DNA could have been in my sister's car, 174 00:13:41,600 --> 00:13:46,840 and why is it, I have no problem whatsoever. They came to my 175 00:13:46,919 --> 00:13:50,639 office. They also met with my brother Richard in Washington, DC, ME 176 00:13:50,759 --> 00:13:54,200 and Los Angeles, where I was living at the time, and my younger 177 00:13:54,240 --> 00:13:56,000 brother in New York, and we said, sure, come on down, 178 00:13:56,159 --> 00:14:01,960 and I sat with the FBI agents because I wanted to have a conversation with 179 00:14:01,039 --> 00:14:05,679 them, to ask them if they knew why they were collecting the DNA, 180 00:14:05,720 --> 00:14:09,600 which interestingly they did not, but they were very curious people. And I 181 00:14:09,639 --> 00:14:13,960 explained a short version of why they were there, and I have no problem 182 00:14:13,960 --> 00:14:18,399 with that. And I don't think anyone in law enforcement or any legitimate person 183 00:14:18,759 --> 00:14:24,279 would have any difficulty whatsoever turning over their DNA so that they can be eliminated 184 00:14:24,360 --> 00:14:30,519 and that would allow their brothers and sisters in law enforcement to focus on potential 185 00:14:30,759 --> 00:14:35,559 suspects. I will challenge people listening to this podcast today to my friends in 186 00:14:35,600 --> 00:14:41,360 law enforcement. I can't believe any of you are pushing back on giving your 187 00:14:41,440 --> 00:14:45,480 DNA. It should come with the territory, so cough it up. We 188 00:14:45,559 --> 00:14:50,000 all did it, except for a handful of people that somehow are so righteous 189 00:14:50,120 --> 00:14:54,720 they can't stand the idea that their DNA would be looked at. No one's 190 00:14:54,840 --> 00:14:58,960 calling them a murderer. They're saying, let's narrow the focus to where it 191 00:14:58,000 --> 00:15:03,159 needs to be. Well, I know you've had firsthand experience and tremendous frustrations 192 00:15:03,200 --> 00:15:07,480 as well getting evidence from the scene tested as well. Right now, one 193 00:15:07,519 --> 00:15:11,960 of the things that I'm really fixated on is a bottle of Gatorade and a 194 00:15:11,960 --> 00:15:16,679 Walmart bag that were at the scene of the crime. They don't belong to 195 00:15:16,720 --> 00:15:22,840 Lolly and Julie, and Julie had a liquid in her stomach which matches the 196 00:15:22,840 --> 00:15:26,559 gatorade. They didn't buy it. Spoiler alert. We know that known serial 197 00:15:26,639 --> 00:15:31,600 killer Mark ofvon It's regularly shopped at Walmart and also preferred to and this is 198 00:15:31,639 --> 00:15:37,399 really just sadistic and terrible, but really preferred to keep his victims well hydrated, 199 00:15:37,440 --> 00:15:43,000 and he would regularly give them energy drinks while he was molesting them and 200 00:15:43,039 --> 00:15:46,799 abusing them and assaulting them. And so again, there are fingerprints on that 201 00:15:46,879 --> 00:15:52,000 gatorade bottle. We know it doesn't belong to Lolli and Julie. We know 202 00:15:52,159 --> 00:15:54,559 we have fingerprints from the scene. Why would we not test that there is 203 00:15:54,600 --> 00:16:00,480 an oily palm print on Julie's sleeping pad, Why would we not test that? 204 00:16:00,279 --> 00:16:04,080 Why would we not test the hair that was in Kathy Thomas's hand? 205 00:16:04,200 --> 00:16:11,279 I just it boggles the mind, It truly does. We're no stranger to 206 00:16:11,399 --> 00:16:17,360 getting tips with relation to our case. Have people reached out to you with 207 00:16:17,519 --> 00:16:21,279 tips that they want you to follow up on or that they think law enforcement 208 00:16:21,320 --> 00:16:26,519 should follow up on? Oh my, so many tips. And I would 209 00:16:26,559 --> 00:16:32,559 say all of them from very well meaning people. And I would say if 210 00:16:32,600 --> 00:16:37,360 I can say it politely and decorously, I would say they run the gamut 211 00:16:37,600 --> 00:16:41,480 of plausibility. But I think anybody who takes the time to reach out, 212 00:16:42,240 --> 00:16:45,440 that's meaningful to me that somebody took the time to find me to tell me 213 00:16:45,519 --> 00:16:49,159 that as well. And certainly I keep track of all of them. Your 214 00:16:49,240 --> 00:16:56,519 listeners probably know that. Again, sometimes Shenandoah and the First Colonial Parkway set 215 00:16:56,519 --> 00:17:00,279 of murders are linked. And so whenever I get anything that seems like it 216 00:17:00,360 --> 00:17:03,480 might be at all relevant to the case of Kathy and Becky, I like 217 00:17:03,519 --> 00:17:10,079 to afford that to Bill, and so he also has had a long suffering 218 00:17:10,160 --> 00:17:12,920 experience with some of these and is always a really good sport about receiving them 219 00:17:12,960 --> 00:17:17,480 as well too. But you never know. I think, if anything, 220 00:17:17,680 --> 00:17:22,480 what we're learning from podcasts and streaming shows, list serves and discussion boards is 221 00:17:22,519 --> 00:17:26,559 that citizen investigators moved cases along all the time. So I think it's beholden 222 00:17:26,640 --> 00:17:30,960 upon us to take all of them seriously. Yeah, Over the years, 223 00:17:30,039 --> 00:17:34,200 both Kristin and I have fed a number of tips into the FBI, and 224 00:17:34,240 --> 00:17:40,279 again, we can't necessarily evaluate what's a good tip and what's not a good 225 00:17:40,319 --> 00:17:44,680 tip, and sometimes we talk about does this person seem completely screwed down to 226 00:17:44,720 --> 00:17:48,720 the deck or not. But even then, just because someone's a little out 227 00:17:48,759 --> 00:17:52,480 there, or maybe even a lot out there, that doesn't mean they shouldn't 228 00:17:52,480 --> 00:17:56,759 be listened to, because they may actually have something to say. And our 229 00:17:56,799 --> 00:18:02,000 attitude is we're going to turn those over to law enforce because the FBI agents 230 00:18:02,119 --> 00:18:06,279 and Virginia State Police agents who were working our case, they know a lot 231 00:18:06,319 --> 00:18:10,160 more about this case than we know. Something might be said in a tip 232 00:18:10,200 --> 00:18:14,920 that would mean something to those investigators. Yeah, and I think anything that 233 00:18:14,960 --> 00:18:19,559 moves these cases along, and also I think anything that might link these cases 234 00:18:19,559 --> 00:18:23,160 to other cases as well too, I think that's really important. I was 235 00:18:23,240 --> 00:18:29,799 really appalled that when I was talking to Sadie Showalter, who's the surviving mother 236 00:18:29,880 --> 00:18:33,839 of Alicia Showalter Reynolds, who was killed about six weeks before Lolly and Julie, 237 00:18:33,440 --> 00:18:37,440 she didn't know that gloves had been been found at the scene of where 238 00:18:37,440 --> 00:18:41,960 Alicia's car had been pulled over. She didn't know that cigarette butts had been 239 00:18:41,440 --> 00:18:45,119 found there as well. There's a very similar pair of gloves found at Lolly 240 00:18:45,119 --> 00:18:48,000 and Julie's scene. There's very similar. I don't know the brand because they're 241 00:18:48,000 --> 00:18:52,480 just butts, but cigarette butts as well too. What does it take then 242 00:18:52,599 --> 00:18:57,680 to cross test those even? Can we exclude even the DNA from those and 243 00:18:57,720 --> 00:19:03,200 the DNA from law and Julie's anything. I think that moves these cases along, 244 00:19:03,440 --> 00:19:07,359 not to some conclusion I want or choose, but to any kind of 245 00:19:07,400 --> 00:19:11,039 resolution whatever that looks like, seems really important to me. Have you received 246 00:19:11,079 --> 00:19:18,240 any new information or tips about Evonnce In particular, the most I think significant 247 00:19:18,279 --> 00:19:22,480 work that's happening on the Avonance front is actually being spearheaded by Deirdre Enright at 248 00:19:22,480 --> 00:19:29,359 the University of Virginia, and she and her students have really been combing through 249 00:19:29,640 --> 00:19:34,279 a lot of the evidence that was preserved from Avonnance's residence, and so she's 250 00:19:34,359 --> 00:19:38,720 been working very actively to link him to other crimes as well too, And 251 00:19:38,759 --> 00:19:42,720 I've been trying to assist on that in any way that I can. Again, 252 00:19:42,799 --> 00:19:48,000 I think that's super important as well too. When he was in the 253 00:19:48,119 --> 00:19:52,680 high speed police chase that would eventually lead to him taking his own life, 254 00:19:52,720 --> 00:19:56,000 he very famously said to his sister when she said, how many times have 255 00:19:56,079 --> 00:20:00,640 you done this? And he said more times than I remain, and in 256 00:20:00,720 --> 00:20:04,720 the book I outline just a few of the leads we have about ways in 257 00:20:04,759 --> 00:20:08,200 which he was pre dating on other women, some of whom are still alive 258 00:20:08,279 --> 00:20:11,880 as well too. And so for me, it's very clear that I think 259 00:20:11,920 --> 00:20:18,079 that we don't know the breadth of Evonnorce's crimes, but I find it almost 260 00:20:18,519 --> 00:20:22,920 entirely unbelievable that he killed only three people, and I think anything that we 261 00:20:22,960 --> 00:20:26,519 can do to further close cases that he might have been involved in is really 262 00:20:26,559 --> 00:20:30,920 important as well, for the benefit of someone who's buying the book today and 263 00:20:32,079 --> 00:20:36,920 hasn't read it yet. Can you recap Ivonance's history in terms of what we 264 00:20:37,160 --> 00:20:41,799 know who is specific victims are. I know we have suspicions beyond the core 265 00:20:41,880 --> 00:20:45,160 group, but can you talk a little bit about his criminal history as we 266 00:20:45,240 --> 00:20:48,880 understand it? Sure, and I'll try to do it chronologically in terms of 267 00:20:48,920 --> 00:20:53,759 how we learned things. So, he abducted a young woman named Kara Robinson 268 00:20:53,880 --> 00:21:00,119 who was sixteen at the time, and brought her back to his house where 269 00:21:00,160 --> 00:21:06,200 he really brutally abused her in myriad sexual ways. Incidentally, that's part of 270 00:21:06,240 --> 00:21:08,400 how we know about the gatorade, is that he would try to keep Kara 271 00:21:08,480 --> 00:21:14,480 hydrated with the gatorade. He had her handcuffed and shackled to his bed. 272 00:21:15,000 --> 00:21:18,720 When he had fallen asleep for the night, she managed to extricate herself and 273 00:21:18,759 --> 00:21:23,319 get help. Her story alone is utterly fascinating and worth telling in more time 274 00:21:23,319 --> 00:21:26,720 than we probably have here. But once she was able to alert the authorities, 275 00:21:26,759 --> 00:21:33,000 and because she had done such a brilliant job of memorizing details about Evonnets 276 00:21:33,000 --> 00:21:36,359 and his apartment, they were able to very quickly figure out who he was. 277 00:21:36,839 --> 00:21:41,119 And so that's what led to this high speed chase across multiple state lines, 278 00:21:41,160 --> 00:21:45,359 and it's what led to him committing suicide in Florida when it was very 279 00:21:45,400 --> 00:21:48,680 clear that he was about to be apprehended. Once he had been once he 280 00:21:48,680 --> 00:21:53,720 had killed himself, the authorities then had access to his DNA, to his 281 00:21:53,759 --> 00:22:00,559 fingerprints and things like that, and using that they were able to confirm that 282 00:22:00,880 --> 00:22:07,759 he had killed both Katie and Kristin Lisk and Sophia Silva to three young women 283 00:22:07,799 --> 00:22:11,440 who were killed in the month right after Lolly and Julie in rural Virginia. 284 00:22:11,559 --> 00:22:17,480 And so we know those three for a fact, what we don't know is 285 00:22:17,599 --> 00:22:21,680 whether or not his DNA was ever loaded to Cotis, and so we don't 286 00:22:21,759 --> 00:22:26,680 know, and the FBI refuses to answer any of my Freedom of Information Act 287 00:22:26,720 --> 00:22:30,400 requests asking if his DNA has been loaded. They told me it's not in 288 00:22:30,480 --> 00:22:36,000 the best interest of the American public to know this. I don't understand how 289 00:22:36,000 --> 00:22:40,480 that's possible. So we have those three, But we also have because we 290 00:22:40,559 --> 00:22:45,799 have his belongings. He had a chest that had dozens of women's underwear, 291 00:22:45,160 --> 00:22:51,880 ranging from what were probably fairly young teenagers to grown women scrunchies. He had 292 00:22:51,960 --> 00:22:56,720 locks of hair that he had removed, and he kept this incredibly disturbing kind 293 00:22:56,799 --> 00:23:03,720 of log book of women he was actively pursuing and in some cases stalking, 294 00:23:03,039 --> 00:23:08,079 using both online dating services phones things like that as well. Too. We've 295 00:23:08,079 --> 00:23:12,240 been able to make contact with a few of them and confirm that they're alive. 296 00:23:12,400 --> 00:23:15,920 We haven't been able to make contact with all of them. We also 297 00:23:17,240 --> 00:23:21,480 know that he had a cousin that shared his name who lived in Chicago, 298 00:23:22,079 --> 00:23:25,599 and that he spent a lot of time there acting as the cousin. And 299 00:23:25,759 --> 00:23:29,000 one of the things that Deirdre and I are also starting to do is really 300 00:23:29,079 --> 00:23:36,000 tease through these records of women he was pursuing in Chicago and Square that against 301 00:23:36,000 --> 00:23:40,759 women who either went missing or were murdered or have pulled any kind of violent 302 00:23:40,799 --> 00:23:45,559 cases against them. But the cousin for sure is not evon It's it's actually 303 00:23:45,680 --> 00:23:52,319 a separate person. Correct. Wow, that's something I'd never heard before. 304 00:23:52,680 --> 00:23:56,799 Well me either, Wow. And his full name is Richard Mark Ivanits is 305 00:23:56,799 --> 00:24:02,880 that right to see? And I'm too is he had a definite mom and 306 00:24:03,039 --> 00:24:07,559 he would buying the women in a particular way. He would penetrate them, 307 00:24:08,119 --> 00:24:11,119 usually with foreign objects, and then there was a way that he would tend 308 00:24:11,160 --> 00:24:17,039 to leave them after they were killed. There's a very similar case here in 309 00:24:17,119 --> 00:24:22,559 Maine involving a young woman named Sarah Cherry that one hundred percent fits this m 310 00:24:22,240 --> 00:24:26,920 down to the stolen car, which was another thing that Avonnets used to do. 311 00:24:26,319 --> 00:24:32,839 And we know for an absolute fact that he happened to be stationed at 312 00:24:32,920 --> 00:24:37,640 the naval base and the iron works, a shipyard here in Maine, literally 313 00:24:37,759 --> 00:24:41,680 ten miles away from where this crime happened, right when it happened. There's 314 00:24:41,720 --> 00:24:45,400 a huge number of people here in the state of Maine who believe that he 315 00:24:45,519 --> 00:24:51,839 actually committed that as well too. And there's currently an innocence movement. A 316 00:24:51,880 --> 00:24:56,200 man was convicted of the crime and is serving life in prison, and most 317 00:24:56,240 --> 00:24:59,960 people here have always assumed his innocence, And there's a growing movement right now 318 00:25:00,119 --> 00:25:03,759 now to get some of the DNA that was taken from this particular crime scene 319 00:25:03,799 --> 00:25:07,599 and to see if you can get it tested against the honors. Has there 320 00:25:07,640 --> 00:25:11,119 been any luck in obtaining his naval service records? I do find it interesting 321 00:25:11,200 --> 00:25:15,559 that he was in the Navy, as was Kathy, and we are a 322 00:25:15,720 --> 00:25:18,759 naval area right here, and we have every type of military base and here 323 00:25:18,799 --> 00:25:23,200 we are primarily Navy. Any luck and getting those records. I don't have 324 00:25:23,319 --> 00:25:27,039 his full records, but I do know that he spent most of his time 325 00:25:27,200 --> 00:25:32,359 here on the East Coast on the Colsh, which was the ship that was 326 00:25:32,519 --> 00:25:37,400 used very oddly to collect the remains after the Challenger disaster, the Challenger explosion, 327 00:25:37,440 --> 00:25:41,519 the space shuttle, And so that's probably if listeners know that name, 328 00:25:41,599 --> 00:25:48,559 that's how and so with some accuracy we can say where the Coulsh was and 329 00:25:48,599 --> 00:25:51,759 so where he was as well too. But I don't personally have his naval 330 00:25:51,799 --> 00:25:53,480 records. I would love to get them, however, because I think that 331 00:25:53,839 --> 00:26:00,279 again, knowing where he was, knowing his propensity for these types of crime, 332 00:26:00,440 --> 00:26:03,839 I don't think we can say with any certainty whatever that it was only 333 00:26:03,960 --> 00:26:10,119 three victims. Do we know how to spell kolsch the USS Kolsch the ship 334 00:26:10,160 --> 00:26:11,880 itself. You're gonna have to check me on it, but I'm going to 335 00:26:12,240 --> 00:26:18,240 try to remember that it's kolscch. I'm not exactly sure about that c, 336 00:26:18,599 --> 00:26:22,400 but I'll get folks close enough for sure. We'll look that up. Boy, 337 00:26:22,400 --> 00:26:26,960 it would be interesting if any of our listeners know anyone that ever served 338 00:26:26,960 --> 00:26:32,160 aboard the US Cools, we'd love to talk to you. And I know 339 00:26:32,200 --> 00:26:36,319 that many Navy ships, including the l Y Spear that the ship that my 340 00:26:36,400 --> 00:26:41,440 sister served aboard, there are groups that are kind of alumni groups of service 341 00:26:41,480 --> 00:26:47,200 personnel who had served on ships. If anyone knows anyone that has ever served 342 00:26:47,200 --> 00:26:51,759 aboard the Kulsh, we'd love to talk with you. The idea of getting 343 00:26:52,000 --> 00:26:57,079 Richard Markavonitz's service records is a really interesting one. And one other quick thing 344 00:26:57,359 --> 00:27:00,680 in talking to my dad, who is also an officer. He had mentioned 345 00:27:00,680 --> 00:27:06,240 to me that when ships are in dry dock, as Thevalance's ship would have 346 00:27:06,279 --> 00:27:11,279 been up at the Bath Iron Works in Beautiful Maine, there's a lot of 347 00:27:11,440 --> 00:27:15,920 downtime for the personnel that are aboard those ships. They're still assigned to the 348 00:27:15,960 --> 00:27:19,440 ship, but they're not out at sea. It's more of a nine to 349 00:27:19,599 --> 00:27:26,559 five kind of job when you're in dry dock because you're literally not going anywhere, 350 00:27:26,319 --> 00:27:30,960 and so there's much more downtime for the men and women that serve aboard 351 00:27:32,000 --> 00:27:36,640 those ships because during those months or even be a year or more, while 352 00:27:36,680 --> 00:27:40,319 the ships are being refitted or repaired, they end up, as my dad 353 00:27:40,359 --> 00:27:41,480 put it, they have a lot more time off and they have a lot 354 00:27:41,519 --> 00:27:47,720 more time to get into trouble. You're listening to mind Over Murder. We'll 355 00:27:47,759 --> 00:27:59,960 be right back after this word from our sponsors. We're back here at Mindover. 356 00:28:02,559 --> 00:28:06,920 And we know that evonatz Is one of his favorite pastimes was driving around 357 00:28:07,000 --> 00:28:10,759 country roads. We know that was a real hobby of his. We know 358 00:28:11,000 --> 00:28:15,960 that he would regularly brag about stealing cars and how easy it was to hot 359 00:28:15,960 --> 00:28:18,720 wire cars. And again we know his moo and so when you take a 360 00:28:18,759 --> 00:28:23,519 look at this particular case. You consider the man Dennis d'shane, who's currently 361 00:28:23,559 --> 00:28:30,079 serving life in prison, zero criminal history, zero criminal record whatsoever, zero 362 00:28:30,200 --> 00:28:33,920 evidence of violence that anyone could find. And then you consider a mark of 363 00:28:33,960 --> 00:28:37,839 honors, and you look at this particular case again, Logically speaking, he 364 00:28:37,960 --> 00:28:42,039 makes an infinitely better suspect. Wow. Absolutely, I want to switch gears 365 00:28:42,039 --> 00:28:47,440 for one second away from Evonance and let's talk a little bit. You're a 366 00:28:47,599 --> 00:28:52,880 dedicated runner, You're a dedicated outdoors woman. How do you feel about the 367 00:28:52,960 --> 00:28:57,079 outdoors and your safety in it? Right about now, it's been about a 368 00:28:57,160 --> 00:29:02,039 year since this came out. Where are you with your relationship with the outdoors. 369 00:29:02,880 --> 00:29:06,759 I still have not been able to solo camp in a tent. I 370 00:29:06,799 --> 00:29:11,480 think having seen the crime scene photos, and I know you too have had 371 00:29:11,519 --> 00:29:17,680 experience with this as well. Having seen the crime scene photos and having them 372 00:29:17,799 --> 00:29:22,559 just really indelibly seared in my brain, it is very difficult for me to 373 00:29:22,599 --> 00:29:27,559 be an attent and not feel panicked. My brain just draws this immediate connection. 374 00:29:29,039 --> 00:29:33,839 And so while I know that statistically speaking, backpacking and camping somewhere like 375 00:29:33,960 --> 00:29:38,319 Maine, I'm extremely safe, it's not a psychologically pleasant experience for me. 376 00:29:38,400 --> 00:29:41,160 So I haven't done that, but I do spend a lot of time in 377 00:29:41,200 --> 00:29:45,640 the wilderness. I'm an avid trail runner, I'm a hiker, and I'd 378 00:29:45,640 --> 00:29:49,160 like to joke right now that at this point I'm so angry about all of 379 00:29:49,160 --> 00:29:55,440 this that God help the serial killer or cerial rapist who attempts to approach me 380 00:29:55,599 --> 00:29:57,720 in the wilderness, because that prop person is probably going to be going to 381 00:29:57,759 --> 00:30:03,039 the police claiming that they being harassed and threatened because I'm so And I do 382 00:30:03,119 --> 00:30:06,319 not say that as a challenge, but I do say that I'm just in 383 00:30:06,359 --> 00:30:10,480 a place right now where when you think about the politics of the country, 384 00:30:10,480 --> 00:30:14,839 when you think about the ongoing misogyny in the country. And I say this 385 00:30:14,960 --> 00:30:18,119 as a woman, I say this as somebody who identifies as queer. I 386 00:30:18,160 --> 00:30:23,680 say this as a sexual assault survivor. I am so angry about what it 387 00:30:23,720 --> 00:30:27,319 is to be a woman in our culture right now, and so I think 388 00:30:27,319 --> 00:30:32,039 that kind of fuels me a little bit in the wilderness, But it's also 389 00:30:32,680 --> 00:30:37,000 it's a place of real beauty and refuge, and I really believe in the 390 00:30:37,079 --> 00:30:41,880 value of forest bathing and immersing yourself in the wilderness as well too, and 391 00:30:41,920 --> 00:30:45,960 I think everyone should get to have access to that. Let me ask you 392 00:30:45,039 --> 00:30:48,480 a question that I don't think I've ever asked you before. If you were 393 00:30:48,519 --> 00:30:53,400 going to be through hiking the Appalachian Trail, and I know the usual route 394 00:30:53,799 --> 00:30:59,960 is to start in May in Georgia and then head north ending in Maine, 395 00:31:00,480 --> 00:31:04,279 sometimes taking an entire summer to do that, which sounds like a wonderful experience, 396 00:31:04,319 --> 00:31:07,799 and I know people that have done it. If you were to do 397 00:31:07,920 --> 00:31:11,759 that today, would you carry a weapon? That's a good question. Does 398 00:31:11,839 --> 00:31:17,920 bear spray count as a weapon? I would say so in point of view 399 00:31:17,960 --> 00:31:22,319 of the person or bear at the receiving end. Yeah, I think there's 400 00:31:22,720 --> 00:31:27,039 I have very mixed thoughts on firearms in this country. As I detail in 401 00:31:27,079 --> 00:31:32,319 the book. I did go through multiple firearms courses and training, and I 402 00:31:32,359 --> 00:31:36,640 feel like that was really the right decision for me. I am not entirely 403 00:31:36,960 --> 00:31:41,799 comfortable with gun ownership as it's defined in this country right now. Bear spray 404 00:31:41,920 --> 00:31:47,079 seems like a really reasonable tool. The other thing that I always thought about 405 00:31:47,079 --> 00:31:49,240 with guns too is I always joke like, what are the logistics there if 406 00:31:49,240 --> 00:31:52,480 my gun is in my backpack and I'm being apprehended. Do I just say, 407 00:31:52,519 --> 00:31:55,759 hang on just one second, I just need to take this path off 408 00:31:55,799 --> 00:32:00,440 and we here whereas a tiny little canister of bear spray angling on your backpack. 409 00:32:00,519 --> 00:32:04,400 That seems like a reasonable thing to have for a variety of reasons, 410 00:32:05,359 --> 00:32:09,680 including rabid animals. So that seems like a fair compromise to me. Are 411 00:32:09,759 --> 00:32:15,720 there additional steps the National Park Service could take in making people safe in the 412 00:32:15,759 --> 00:32:21,319 back country? Do you think, oh, how much time do we have? 413 00:32:23,440 --> 00:32:28,680 Specifically? Yes. One of the things that first of all, that 414 00:32:28,720 --> 00:32:32,519 I outline in the book is that there is currently no codified mechanism for reporting 415 00:32:32,640 --> 00:32:37,799 violent crimes. So as citizens of this country and as park goers, we 416 00:32:37,000 --> 00:32:43,079 don't know how many crimes are occurring. We know that the GAO, the 417 00:32:43,079 --> 00:32:47,279 Government Accountability Office, has done several studies and taken the Park Service in the 418 00:32:47,319 --> 00:32:52,119 Department of the Interior to task for their lack of reporting. It's up to 419 00:32:52,200 --> 00:32:57,000 whoever is the head ranger and whoever is the superintendent of a park, whether 420 00:32:57,079 --> 00:33:00,920 or not these crimes ever get reported, and frank, to what degree they 421 00:33:00,920 --> 00:33:05,200 ever get investigated. So first and foremost, we can start accurately accounting for 422 00:33:05,279 --> 00:33:08,039 that, and once we actually know how pervasive the problem is, then I 423 00:33:08,079 --> 00:33:14,079 think we can take more steps. The Park Service is woefully underfunded. There's 424 00:33:14,119 --> 00:33:19,000 a lot of attrition happening with rangers. Law enforcement rangers are not always adequately 425 00:33:19,079 --> 00:33:23,799 trained, they don't have adequate weapons or communication devices. In some cases, 426 00:33:23,839 --> 00:33:29,759 there's only one law enforcement ranger for an entire park that is going to span 427 00:33:30,079 --> 00:33:35,559 in some cases hundreds of square miles. So I think policing and making that 428 00:33:35,680 --> 00:33:40,480 presence known in a way that's obviously not intrusive and kind of storm troopery for 429 00:33:40,759 --> 00:33:44,880 visitors, but making sure that folks know that you don't get a pass. 430 00:33:45,000 --> 00:33:49,599 There is something else that's really important as well. The Park Service has been 431 00:33:49,720 --> 00:33:54,319 criticized though for a culture of cover up over the years. They've been likened 432 00:33:54,400 --> 00:33:59,279 to the Catholic Church, and I was an ultra boy many years ago and 433 00:33:59,359 --> 00:34:04,960 raised Catholic. The Park Service has been criticized in writing, in magazine articles, 434 00:34:04,960 --> 00:34:10,840 in books by people inside the organization and outside that they cover up criminality 435 00:34:10,960 --> 00:34:20,239 among National Park Service employees, as well as downplay statistics involving crime, vandalism, 436 00:34:20,559 --> 00:34:23,920 potential violence within the National Park Service. How do you feel about that. 437 00:34:24,480 --> 00:34:28,840 I think it's accurate. Bill. I know you're familiar with this work, 438 00:34:28,880 --> 00:34:31,119 and I don't know if your listeners are at Paul Berkowitz has written two 439 00:34:31,159 --> 00:34:36,960 books really exploring this in depth, and I highly recommend them if this is 440 00:34:37,000 --> 00:34:40,760 an interesting subject. His book on the Indian Trader, which is a story 441 00:34:40,760 --> 00:34:45,079 of what happened in the Grand Canyon, I think is particularly relevant and particularly 442 00:34:45,119 --> 00:34:50,159 telling. He's a former law enforcement ranger himself, and he talks about this 443 00:34:50,320 --> 00:34:57,159 notion that's called noble cause corruption, where sometimes rangers or any law enforcement officer 444 00:34:57,320 --> 00:35:02,679 will do the wrong thing legally or morally because they believe it's the right thing 445 00:35:02,840 --> 00:35:08,320 to, for instance, protect a fellow ranger or preserve the sense of calm 446 00:35:08,400 --> 00:35:14,519 and peacefulness within a park. He outlines in real detail some of how this 447 00:35:14,599 --> 00:35:19,159 happens, and this transfer system, which is very similar to this idea of 448 00:35:19,239 --> 00:35:22,880 the Catholic Church, especially what we saw in Boston during the sexual abuse cover 449 00:35:23,000 --> 00:35:28,119 ups that were happening, is that parishes would transfer a priest rather than hold 450 00:35:28,119 --> 00:35:30,599 the priest accountable. And we've seen this in the Park Service as well, 451 00:35:30,679 --> 00:35:37,920 that rangers who have either been found negligent or have had disciplinary action taken against 452 00:35:37,000 --> 00:35:40,920 them. Rather than having that get filed or sent up the personnel chain, 453 00:35:42,000 --> 00:35:45,039 they in fact have been transferred to other parks as well. And what I 454 00:35:45,079 --> 00:35:47,639 think is really most disturbing about that is we don't really have a sense of 455 00:35:47,719 --> 00:35:52,119 how often that happens, but we know that it's enough that it's a significant 456 00:35:52,119 --> 00:35:54,719 problem. All Right, I want to make our listeners jealous for a second 457 00:35:54,760 --> 00:35:59,599 and tell them about the fact that I did get to meet you in person. 458 00:36:00,119 --> 00:36:02,920 Was it only a week ago? Wow? Was it two weeks ago, 459 00:36:04,480 --> 00:36:07,480 ten days ago? Okay? All right, Yeah, whatever it was, 460 00:36:07,880 --> 00:36:09,480 it was a wonderful experience to get to hang out with you. So 461 00:36:09,800 --> 00:36:15,639 tell us a little bit about your speaking engagement at the Library of Virginia and 462 00:36:15,639 --> 00:36:20,159 what all that entailed. Yeah. I was really delighted to be asked by 463 00:36:20,199 --> 00:36:25,280 them to come speak, especially because Richmond is obviously so close to where these 464 00:36:25,280 --> 00:36:30,679 crimes occurred, and I know how deeply personal it is for so many of 465 00:36:30,719 --> 00:36:34,480 the people there. So in addition to get to have some time with the 466 00:36:34,559 --> 00:36:37,880 great Kristin Dilly, I was really thrilled to be able to talk to the 467 00:36:37,960 --> 00:36:44,719 audience as well too, And I was really profoundly moved by the number of 468 00:36:44,760 --> 00:36:51,400 people who waited online after to chat and to tell me their stories. And 469 00:36:51,639 --> 00:36:53,719 it was people who used to go to the park and don't go to the 470 00:36:53,719 --> 00:36:58,920 park anymore. It was a woman whose husband had been an initial suspect and 471 00:36:58,960 --> 00:37:01,239 the family had really been and for an apart by that, oh it was 472 00:37:01,360 --> 00:37:07,440 it was a lot of people who had a very personal connection to these stories. 473 00:37:07,480 --> 00:37:13,159 And for me, as a journalist, it's incredibly poignant to hear those 474 00:37:13,199 --> 00:37:17,679 stories and to remind myself not only how deeply personal it is for the immediate 475 00:37:17,679 --> 00:37:22,320 friends and family of victims, but the way in which these kinds of acts 476 00:37:22,320 --> 00:37:28,119 of violence really do start to serve as hate crimes in the sense that they 477 00:37:28,199 --> 00:37:35,320 take entire demographics and radically change their relationship to play. And for so many 478 00:37:35,360 --> 00:37:39,719 of the people that I met at this library event, this event radically altered 479 00:37:39,800 --> 00:37:44,920 and negatively altered their relationship not only with Shenandoah, but with the wilderness. 480 00:37:44,920 --> 00:37:49,440 Writ large in the book Trail, do you talk about this quite a bit, 481 00:37:49,920 --> 00:37:53,320 how meaningful the outdoors have been for you as a woman and as an 482 00:37:53,320 --> 00:37:59,719 outdoors woman, and for so many other people that you've befriended. Yet here 483 00:37:59,760 --> 00:38:02,039 we are again. You're speaking about the book. The book's been out for 484 00:38:02,119 --> 00:38:07,679 a year, it's had a tremendous impact, but you're hearing from people who 485 00:38:07,760 --> 00:38:13,599 are talking about the ripple effect of this nineteen ninety six double homicide. Yeah. 486 00:38:13,679 --> 00:38:15,559 When I was working on the book, I interviewed Claudia Breunner. She 487 00:38:15,639 --> 00:38:20,519 and her partner, Rebecca White, were both shot just off the Appalachian Trail. 488 00:38:21,039 --> 00:38:25,199 Rebecca was killed, Claudia had multiple bullets in her and somehow managed to 489 00:38:25,280 --> 00:38:30,960 hike miles out and get help. And she wrote about that very poignantly in 490 00:38:30,000 --> 00:38:34,239 a book called Eight Bullets, and she talked not only about what it was 491 00:38:34,320 --> 00:38:37,239 to be the victim of what was a very intentional hate crime, but then 492 00:38:37,320 --> 00:38:44,159 also what it was to be investigated by law enforcement officers who had next to 493 00:38:44,280 --> 00:38:46,800 no experience dealing with someone who had been in a same sex relationship, and 494 00:38:46,840 --> 00:38:52,559 just how re traumatizing that plus the court was, and we had talked about 495 00:38:52,559 --> 00:38:54,639 this notion of hate crime and what is a hate crime? Because Lali and 496 00:38:54,760 --> 00:39:02,039 Julie's legal case very famously became the first official federal hate crime case in the 497 00:39:02,119 --> 00:39:07,440 United States. So there's a lot of really significant historical resonance there. People 498 00:39:07,440 --> 00:39:10,280 are very divided about whether or not this was a hate crime in terms of 499 00:39:10,400 --> 00:39:15,119 the perpetrator's motivations, whether the perpetrator was aware of Lolly and Julie's sexuality. 500 00:39:15,440 --> 00:39:19,880 But what Claudia Brenner said to me, and I've always just really taken this 501 00:39:19,920 --> 00:39:24,320 to heart, is she said, for me and for my entire community of 502 00:39:25,039 --> 00:39:30,559 lesbian women, we no longer feel safe in the wilderness, and in that 503 00:39:30,719 --> 00:39:37,320 regard, for every woman, for every LGBT person who has severed their relationship 504 00:39:37,320 --> 00:39:39,920 with the wilderness because of this violence. This is absolutely a hate crime, 505 00:39:40,159 --> 00:39:44,320 and that's a really important distinction to me. We can talk about hate crimes 506 00:39:44,320 --> 00:39:49,000 in terms of the perpetrator and the motivation, but I think understanding the deep 507 00:39:49,199 --> 00:39:52,639 impact of a crime is just as useful in terms of identifying it as a 508 00:39:52,639 --> 00:39:58,559 potential hate crime. There's a flip flop there, I think that has happened 509 00:39:58,719 --> 00:40:07,079 where people that w identify with the LGBTQ community would probably say that they feel 510 00:40:07,159 --> 00:40:12,880 safer in America's big cities than they would somewhere out in a beautiful spot in 511 00:40:12,920 --> 00:40:15,760 the middle of the woods or mountains. I think people think, oh, 512 00:40:15,800 --> 00:40:20,000 you're much more at risk if you're in a big city. And yet for 513 00:40:20,360 --> 00:40:24,159 I think a lot of members of this community, they feel safer they are 514 00:40:24,159 --> 00:40:29,599 in the big town than they ever would in the woods, probably because of 515 00:40:29,679 --> 00:40:35,360 the number of incidents like this of harassment, assault, and you can just 516 00:40:35,440 --> 00:40:43,599 keep escalating rape murder, even though hate crime is not an expression used commonly 517 00:40:43,840 --> 00:40:50,360 till about nineteen ninety six, the phenomenon and this sad series of incidents has 518 00:40:50,400 --> 00:40:52,599 been going on for decades. Yeah, and we can fold in all sorts 519 00:40:52,679 --> 00:40:55,760 of what we call socially subordinate groups, and that as well too, the 520 00:40:55,840 --> 00:41:00,320 number of black people and bipoc people who don't feel safe in the wilderness, 521 00:41:00,400 --> 00:41:07,119 not only because of current events, but also this kind of epigenetic generational memory 522 00:41:07,320 --> 00:41:10,239 of centuries of really terrible things that have happened to people of color in the 523 00:41:10,239 --> 00:41:14,840 wilderness as well too. And so one of the things I definitely wanted to 524 00:41:14,880 --> 00:41:19,639 try to highlight in the book is this question of who gets to feel safe 525 00:41:19,800 --> 00:41:22,559 in our parks and our forests and our deserts, in our wilderness places. 526 00:41:22,599 --> 00:41:25,880 Who gets to feel safe and why? And I think as a country and 527 00:41:25,920 --> 00:41:30,360 as a culture, we still have so much work to do on that front. 528 00:41:30,559 --> 00:41:34,760 It's really a position of privilege to go for a hike in the woods 529 00:41:34,800 --> 00:41:37,599 and feel safe and not be looking over your shoulder, and I think we 530 00:41:37,679 --> 00:41:43,000 haven't really talked about that as a country. Kate. I'm scanning right now 531 00:41:43,480 --> 00:41:47,400 your archives on Outside Magazine, and you've done a lot of work, wonderful 532 00:41:47,440 --> 00:41:52,639 work for Outside before there was Trailed. It looks like there was a lot 533 00:41:52,679 --> 00:41:59,159 of different articles about murder and violence on the at Can you highlight for our 534 00:41:59,199 --> 00:42:02,159 listeners some of the additional reporting that you've done for Outside and where they can 535 00:42:02,199 --> 00:42:07,320 find it. Sure. One of the most heartbreaking cases actually occurred while I 536 00:42:07,559 --> 00:42:13,800 was writing one of the penultimate drafts of Trailed, and that was the murder 537 00:42:13,840 --> 00:42:17,360 of Ron Sanchez, who had been hiking. He was a veteran of the 538 00:42:17,360 --> 00:42:24,159 Middle Eastern conflict and he had come back and was experiencing PTSD and really found 539 00:42:24,159 --> 00:42:28,199 a sense of renewal in hiking, which I think so many of us have. 540 00:42:29,039 --> 00:42:32,239 He was attempting to through hike on the trail when a young man who 541 00:42:32,320 --> 00:42:39,159 had some profound mental illness and long history of violence assaulted not only Ron Sanchez, 542 00:42:39,199 --> 00:42:43,280 but three other hikers who happened to be camping for the night as well, 543 00:42:43,320 --> 00:42:47,760 and Ron really, I think valiantly tried to save the other three hikers 544 00:42:47,840 --> 00:42:52,519 and lost his life as a result. So that was a case that really 545 00:42:52,599 --> 00:42:57,480 resonated with me and just made it really real how this continues to be a 546 00:42:57,519 --> 00:43:00,360 problem on the trail. And there are others as well too, Thankfully, 547 00:43:00,519 --> 00:43:04,440 not a lot, and I think that's a really important point to make, 548 00:43:04,679 --> 00:43:07,159 but addressing these and thinking about these, I think is really important. And 549 00:43:07,280 --> 00:43:13,519 luckily, when I served as trail correspondent for Outside magazine, I rod leeway 550 00:43:13,599 --> 00:43:15,679 in terms of what I was covering, so I could tell those stories, 551 00:43:15,679 --> 00:43:21,239 which are again really upsetting. I told stories about the history of segregation at 552 00:43:21,320 --> 00:43:24,320 Shenandoah, But then there were also fun stories too, like folks who were 553 00:43:24,320 --> 00:43:30,039 setting fastest known time attempts on the trails and some of the silliness of the 554 00:43:30,039 --> 00:43:34,320 Appalachian trail culture as well too. It was really a very sort of immersive 555 00:43:34,400 --> 00:43:37,039 experience for me to do that work, and I really loved it. Yeah, 556 00:43:37,119 --> 00:43:40,719 just from a total fangirl perspective, Here did you? I saw you 557 00:43:40,760 --> 00:43:44,800 wrote two pieces about Scott Jurek. Did you get to meet him? I 558 00:43:44,880 --> 00:43:51,000 did? Oh my god, that's so cool. Yeah, Carl, He 559 00:43:51,079 --> 00:43:53,840 and Carl Meltzer both had and I don't think they'll mind me saying that they 560 00:43:53,840 --> 00:43:59,159 both had a very show up and blow up fastest known time attempt. I 561 00:43:59,400 --> 00:44:05,679 really love the little guys who aren't sponsored and don't have all of the kind 562 00:44:05,719 --> 00:44:08,639 of bells and whistles and fandom following them, who have gone on to do 563 00:44:08,679 --> 00:44:14,360 it very quietly in the old fashioned way. I'm a traditionalist where that's concerned. 564 00:44:14,519 --> 00:44:17,159 I'm always cheering for those guys. And because I know you don't know, 565 00:44:17,280 --> 00:44:22,519 Belle, Scott Jarek is. He's an ultra runner and he made an 566 00:44:22,599 --> 00:44:28,400 fkt fas fastest known time attempt to run the at it's insane. He wrote 567 00:44:28,400 --> 00:44:31,519 an amazing book about it, and I'm in love with his book. It's 568 00:44:31,559 --> 00:44:35,920 amazing. So I'm very jealous. You got to meet Scott jered Kate. 569 00:44:36,000 --> 00:44:39,360 That's so cool. Help well, I can recommend jenfar Davis, who held 570 00:44:39,360 --> 00:44:44,360 the record for quite some time regardless of gender. She has a book that 571 00:44:44,360 --> 00:44:47,559 came out a couple of years ago called The Pursuit of endurance where she tells 572 00:44:47,639 --> 00:44:52,559 not only her own story, but she talks to a lot of these fastest 573 00:44:52,559 --> 00:44:58,039 known time record holders and these very long distance hikers and runners to look at, 574 00:44:58,079 --> 00:45:00,000 what is it that motivates us to do this? Why are we so 575 00:45:00,119 --> 00:45:04,159 compelled by it? And I just think it's a wonderful book, all right, 576 00:45:04,199 --> 00:45:07,519 I wrote it down. Yeah, And you do ultra You do ultras 577 00:45:07,559 --> 00:45:10,840 as well. You were were covering from one still when we talked. For 578 00:45:10,880 --> 00:45:15,360 anybody who doesn't know, can you tell what an ultra marathon is and why 579 00:45:15,360 --> 00:45:17,360 do you do them? Yeah? The first part of that is easier to 580 00:45:17,400 --> 00:45:22,639 answer than the second. So an ultra technically is any race that's longer than 581 00:45:22,679 --> 00:45:25,880 twenty six point two miles. In trail running, one of the most common 582 00:45:25,920 --> 00:45:30,880 distances is fifty kilometers, and then fifty miles, one hundred kilometers and one 583 00:45:30,920 --> 00:45:36,719 hundred miles. And I have a dear friend and running partner who talks about 584 00:45:36,719 --> 00:45:39,360 how you do this, and she calls it burrito pace. And so basically, 585 00:45:39,760 --> 00:45:44,159 if you can't eat a bean and cheese burrito at the pace that you're 586 00:45:44,239 --> 00:45:46,360 running, you're doing it too fast. So that's the huge part of why 587 00:45:46,400 --> 00:45:51,719 That's why Kristin, I know you run five k's, I would rather run 588 00:45:51,760 --> 00:45:53,679 fifty miles than a five k. I feel like five k's are the most 589 00:45:53,679 --> 00:45:59,840 painful thing ever, whereas just looking along in the woods for a day feels 590 00:45:59,880 --> 00:46:01,920 a lot more manageable to me too. So I think it's people like you 591 00:46:01,960 --> 00:46:06,719 who are doing the crazy, hardcore work. Oh thank you, appreciate it. 592 00:46:06,760 --> 00:46:09,239 All I can say is color me intimidated with these two amazing work. 593 00:46:13,880 --> 00:46:20,440 Can I just stay home and man the phones and maybe have a burrito? 594 00:46:20,599 --> 00:46:25,760 You on? We're so thrilled that you were able to spend some time talking 595 00:46:25,800 --> 00:46:29,199 with us today. If people want to find your book, and I don't 596 00:46:29,199 --> 00:46:31,199 see any reason why they wouldn't, where can they go to find your book? 597 00:46:31,199 --> 00:46:36,239 Where is it available? I always love it when people patronize their local 598 00:46:36,320 --> 00:46:40,000 independent bookstores, so that's always my very favorite go to. If they don't 599 00:46:40,039 --> 00:46:45,519 have it, they can certainly order it. Obviously Amazon is another option as 600 00:46:45,559 --> 00:46:50,039 well too, And we're just really glad for anybody who takes the time and 601 00:46:50,360 --> 00:46:58,920 our natural question what's next for Catherine Kate Miles. We finally put together the 602 00:46:58,960 --> 00:47:04,920 full package for the streaming series version of the book. We've just signed on 603 00:47:05,320 --> 00:47:09,719 a really wonderful director. I don't know if I'm actually allowed to say her 604 00:47:09,800 --> 00:47:15,159 name yet, but she's exactly perfect for this. And so now right now 605 00:47:15,199 --> 00:47:17,920 as we speak, we're starting to take this out to market. And that's 606 00:47:17,960 --> 00:47:22,800 a really exciting prospect for me, largely because I think it's an entirely different 607 00:47:23,199 --> 00:47:28,079 population to reach by way of this story. And I also feel like it's 608 00:47:28,119 --> 00:47:32,119 a really great opportunity to continue the investigation and to talk in more detail about 609 00:47:32,119 --> 00:47:37,280 everything that's happened since the book was published. They called me a week or 610 00:47:37,280 --> 00:47:40,360 two ago and said, would I be willing to appear on camera and talk 611 00:47:40,400 --> 00:47:44,000 about you in the book? And I said, I'd think about it. 612 00:47:44,760 --> 00:47:50,440 Ha. I know better than that, and I'm already grateful. A number 613 00:47:50,480 --> 00:47:54,559 of favors I need to repay to Bill Thomas are a list that I feel 614 00:47:54,599 --> 00:47:58,159 I'm never going to be able to get through. And I was thrilled, 615 00:47:58,239 --> 00:48:02,519 actually that after this mutual admiration society, I was thrilled that you and Kristin 616 00:48:02,559 --> 00:48:07,000 were actually able to be in the same room. And she just came home 617 00:48:07,320 --> 00:48:13,960 buzzed from your incredible talk at the Library of Virginia again, talk about mutual 618 00:48:14,000 --> 00:48:16,760 admiration societies. I honestly, I think the work that you do is so 619 00:48:16,880 --> 00:48:22,119 great, and to finally get to sit and chat with you was just such 620 00:48:22,119 --> 00:48:24,519 a gift for me too, and was absolutely worth the trip. So thank 621 00:48:24,559 --> 00:48:29,360 you. Good call on the two of you having an early dinner beforehand, 622 00:48:29,360 --> 00:48:32,559 because it sounded like everybody wanted to talk to you, Kate. After your 623 00:48:32,639 --> 00:48:37,159 talk, but afterwards, I stumbled back to my hotel room and I think 624 00:48:37,159 --> 00:48:39,079 I was a bed in bed five minutes later, so I wouldn't have been 625 00:48:39,159 --> 00:48:45,639 much of a dinner date after all of that. The book is trailed one 626 00:48:45,679 --> 00:48:50,440 woman's quest to solve the Shenandoah murders, and we can definitely hope for that 627 00:48:50,639 --> 00:48:53,480 eventual ending. Kate, thank you so much for joining us in this episode 628 00:48:53,519 --> 00:48:59,119 of mind Over Murder, My pleasure. Thank you for having me that's going 629 00:48:59,199 --> 00:49:02,079 to do it for this EPI, thanks so much for listening. We'll see 630 00:49:02,079 --> 00:49:16,599 you next time. Mind Over Murder is a production of Absolute Zero and Another 631 00:49:16,760 --> 00:49:22,480 Dog Productions. Our executive producers are Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilley. Our logo 632 00:49:22,639 --> 00:49:28,920 art is by Pamela Arnois. Our theme music is by Kevin McLoud. Mind 633 00:49:28,920 --> 00:49:34,199 Over Murder is distributed in partnership with crawl Space Media. You can follow us 634 00:49:34,239 --> 00:49:37,239 on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram. You can also follow our page on 635 00:49:37,280 --> 00:49:43,079 the Colonial Parkway Murders on Facebook, and finally, you can follow Bill Thomas 636 00:49:43,159 --> 00:49:47,199 on Twitter at Bill Thomas. Five six. Thank you for listening to mind 637 00:49:47,400 --> 00:50:07,159 over Murder ant