Hudson River Radio dot com. It beats listening to nothing. My goodness,
Be Frank, where the only way to be is Frank, everyone, and
welcome to Being Frank, where the only way to be is Frank. I'm
your host, Franklbona, and I'd like to thank you for joining us on
what we like to call the intelligent conversation podcast, where no conversation is out
of bounds and all points of view are welcome. Being Prank covers all sorts
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I'll give you more information on how to find and contact us a little
later in the program. For context, this Being Frank is is being recorded
live to take on October twenty sixth. Lately, the war in the Middle
East has dominated the headlines. Of course, considering the scope of the conflict,
this is completely understandable. However, there is another fight still going on,
the consequences of which are just as dire for the international community. I'm
referring, of course, to the war in Ukraine. For over a year,
the people of Ukraine have bravely resisted a brutal, vicious attempt by Russia
to occupy their ancestral lands, and in many ways, the Russians have perpetrated
atrocities against the Ukrainian people every bit as vicious as a recent Hamas attack on
Israel. Since the beginning of the conflict, the United States and its NATO
allies have been supporting Ukraine with much needed cash and weapons. However, despite
the diary percussions, that support appears to be waning. There has been talk
among Congressional Republicans are severely limiting, if not eliminating, our support for Ukraine.
In fact, yesterday, Republican Mike Johnson, who was as recently as
May voted against an aid package for Ukraine, was elected Speaker of the House.
Only one reporter that I know of has been in Ukraine since the very
onset of the conflict. He's there on his own time and on his own
dime because he believes in the right of the Ukrainian people to defend their sovereignty
against a vicious opponent. He has honored us with his live reports directly from
the battle zone on numerous occasions. He joins us once again with his unique
perspective. Welcome back, Phil Litner, and thank you so much for joining
us. My pleasure always a pleasure. And I know you make an effort
in every way with time zone changes, and Ukraine is seven hours different now
you're on the West coast, completely the other way. So tell us you're
back home for a relatively brief vis that. What's going on with you?
Well, I came back. I came back for a number of reasons.
Uh some just purely personal things that I just needed to deal with. For
example, I had a car in storage that I needed to move to a
friend's garage, and I kind of had some you know, just personal you
know, bits and bobs you can't do, sadly enough in Ukraine because of
the difficulty of getting things in and out of there. So anyhow, I
came back for that. But I also came back to LA as opposed to
go to d C because I wanted to talk to some of the content creators.
Uh here in Los Angeles, the media types who influence or have the
ability to influence public opinion. While I absolutely one hundred percent support those who
are on the hill pressuring our elected officials to keep the money flowing and the
support, the actual the actual votes and the the the the you know,
support of the state of the United States, the Republic. I also think
it's important to keep this war in people's minds because, as you mentioned,
there are other things happening in the world. I don't think those are unconnected.
I think that there is a distinct effort by the Russians to try and
draw attention away from Ukraine. So I wanted to come here and talk to
those people who have the ability to create media, who have influence in the
media sphere, to try and keep the war in Ukraine on the front pages
and in people's consciousness. And I've had a couple of very productive meanings here.
We'll see if they result in anything, but I'm going to do my
darndest to try and keep Ukraine in people's consciousness because it is still a really
important war that is very black and white. It really is. It's i
suppose to the shades of gray and the complexity is of the war in the
Middle East. To my mind, the war in Ukraine is very much black
and white and It is a war of imperial aggression against a colonial nation that
has been subjugated to Moscow's imperial rule for centuries, finally breaking free from that
rule. And it's going to change. Whatever happens, win or lose,
it will it will determine the fate of Europe. And by determining the fate
of Europe, you know, our closest ally and a group of our closest
trading partners, it will change the course of the globe. This is you
know, this is liberal democracy pushing back against autocracies full you know, straight,
very very clear, very easy to understand. And we have to remember
that, and we have to support the Ukrainians there. When I left,
I asked my Ukrainians colleagues and friends and contacts, I said, what message
do you want me to carry with? What message do you want me to
carry to the United States? And I had a number of people tell me
a number of different things, but one of the things that stood out is
that the Ukrainians told me we can win this war. We can win.
It is victory. You know, a peace through victory is obtainable. It
is in uh it's on the horizon, it is visible. There is a
clear course towards it, but we can also lose. We have to make
a choice, and the choice is between supporting the Ukrainians and their sovereignty and
their right for self determination, and you know how all the effects that that
will have, as I just outlined, within Europe and within the globe.
But we need to make a choice. And one of the criticisms that has
been leveled against the West is that there has been a drip drip drip attitude,
this kind of incremental support for the Ukrainians. And what I'm hearing from
Ukrainians as I was coming back to the States was, you know, they're
obviously grateful for the support, and they don't like the incremental way that it's
being given, but they also understand that, you know, as my grandmother
used to say, beggars can't be choosers. But at the end of the
day, they also say, look, it's in your best interest too.
It's in everybody's best interest that this war is finished and we can do it.
The Ukrainians say, we see a path the victory and through victory peace,
but the result has to remain and if the West chooses makes a conscious
choice not to wholeheartedly support Ukraine. There is a possibility that they could lose.
They could lose territory, they could lose the dawn Bass out in the
east, the contestant area of Ukraine. They could lose Crimea, they could
lose Odessa. There are scenarios where the Ukrainians end up were saw far worse
off than they were when this war support started, and that will only embolden
the Russia. So the message the long way around, as I get when
you know, as I get chatty, but the long way around to it
is this, make a choice, guys. Is the message that Ukrainians are
saying. Choose to defend liberal democracy, choose to support Ukraine, because if
you don't make that choice, and if you don't support them in their efforts
very victory, there's still a possibility, a very real possibility, that they
lose. It will be bloody, there will be If we wouldraw our support,
the fighting will not stop if we were throwing support. What will happen
is there will be an insurgency, There will be a gorilla war. This
will drag on for years and years and years, and it will be even
more bloody in some ways than it is now. It will be even more
vicious. It's interesting, Frank that in your introduction there you talk about the
destruction that we're being in the Middle East. Well, you know, in
particular, you know, the world got up in arms when the hospital there
was that incident with the hospital in Gaza, to which the Ukrainians say,
we lose a hospital pretty much every month we get we get a hospital hit
it or take. Every month the Russians strike a hospital with no justification.
There There are no Hamas fighters or Ukrainian guerrillas hiding in Ukrainian hospitals. That's
not how they operate. The Russians are striking hospitals specifically to destroy the infrastructure
and specifically to destroy aid to those Ukrainian wounded. It's terrorism. But the
Ukrainians yeah, no, go ahead, Well I get long winded. No,
it's all right, because you have a lot to say, and it's
a lot of good stuff to say, so of course, please continue to
do so. And I want to develop that point too, some of the
similarities between the conflicts and develop why there seems to be a certain attitude towards
one and a different attitudes towards the other. And I'll get to that in
a minute. But you noticed, but you mentioned, excuse me, that
you did meet with some so called media types to advance the word of what's
actually happening there. And I noticed on your Facebook page, and i'll plug
you here. You have a public Facebook page where you post your videos from
Ukraine. I follow it regularly. I recommend others do as well for the
latest breaking news from Ukraine. And I noticed that you had a photo with
Sean Penn, a well known name of the so called media type and actor
turned activist director. What's someone like his stature? What is his feeling and
do you believe he can help? Can he help get the message out?
Well, he's already done a fantastic documentary called Superpower, which I think you
can stream on Paramount Plus. That is his It's a documentary that he plays
to do before the full scale invasion about Volodimitter Zolensky and how President Zelenski transitioned
from a media figure in a comic to the leader of a country. And
he had intended to do it before the full scale invasion, but he began
filming it and the Russians did invade on February twenty fourth, twenty twenty two,
and he was there for that thinking that Zelensky would have his hands far
too full to deal with the documentary crew. He was shocked to find that
actually no, the Ukrainian president invited him into his bunker the day of the
invasion. It is a very strong documentary. I recommend everybody go and watch
it if you have access to paramount plus and I mean chompin. In my
meeting with him, he's he's full on board behind Ukraine. He is one
hundred percent there, and he's he's prescient. He's conscious and conscious of what
he is doing. He is conscious of why this is a good fight,
why this is this is something that needs to be supported. Uh and so
that not only is the documentary there, but he's got aid groups and we
discussed other, you know, potential ways to keep this in the consciousness of
people. But make no doubt about it. He is one hundred percent pro
Ukrainian. He is He's in it, as am I, as in as
are many people who I'm here in l a meeting with one hundred percent in
support of Ukraine. It's just how do we get it into the public sphere.
I mean we can, we can talk about all sorts of potential,
but ultimately it's it's it's getting it out to the larger numbers who may be
war weary, they may be changing their focus to the Middle East or what
have you. But there are people here I was, I met with I
met with Sean Payn, I met with Malcolm Nance, I met with a
number of people here in la who do see the threat. It's just what
can we do about it? What can we what content can we create to
keep it in people's minds, And we're not giving up, and we're going
to keep at it. You know, Generally, people are not afraid that
Americans will support U Grain because it is a righteous and a good fight,
and it's very similar to our revolution. As we've discussed in the past that
it's a seventeen seventy six moment for a colonial nation that has been living under
the thumb of an empire. In Moscow, it's very similar to the Thirteen
Colonies and Great Britain, and many people here see that as well, so
Americans. The consensus of the people that I'm talking to is that Americans will
support you Grain. They just need to be reminded and they need to have
it. You know it needs to be you know, reinforced. I suppose
so, and we're confident we can do that. Let's let's address something as
as colleagues, as fellow journalists, and it's been drummed in our heads from
the beginning, objectivity, don't you side? But that doesn't always work either,
total objectivity. There there there are sometimes clear cut lines between good guys
and bad guys, and I think that's something that you want to make the
point you are an intensely experienced journalist who has covered the war in the Middle
East, et cetera. Uh, but but you've chosen a side here despite
what we've always been trained since our early days as journalists. Objectivity. Objectivity,
Well, sometimes that doesn't work because sometimes you have to see, you
have to say exactly what you see, and in this particular case, you
see a good guy and a bad guy who developed that a little bit.
Again, as as a journalist, you're right, you're right. I mean
I have never taken aside in any conflict that I not consciously. I'm of
course, every human being has a bias, but I have I have worked
throughout my career to limit my bias and UH to try and be as objective
as as I possibly can not in this case, not in this case,
and while I still I still ethically maintain my journalistic standards in other areas,
like you know, trying to to report things as I see them on the
ground as objectively as possible, but bigger in the yeah, factually when something
happens, because that's important. You can't, you know, it's counterproductive to
be a liar or a propagandist. I am not a propagandist. I have,
however, chosen a side and that and that puts me in a very
different situation than what I've experienced in my entire career. And I'm comfortable with
that. I'm okay with that. I'm on the side of Ukraine. I
love Ukraine. I love Ukrainian people, I love the culture, I love
the land. I love the food, the music, the literature, the
painting, everything. There's so much about Ukraine that I truly adore, and
so when it was attacked, I made a conscious choice to step in on
the side of Ukraine. So I am openly saying that I am on the
side of Ukraine, and that to me is different than anything I've ever done
in my career because it's important. I believe in war reporting in particular,
it's very important to maintain objectivity. But in this case, in this particular
case, this war, and I hope to God it's my last war,
because I never want to cover a war again. I've had, I've had
a belly full, I'm up to my neck in it, and I'm done.
If it was not Ukraine, I wouldn't be doing this. I'd be
retired and doing documentary. He's about the Pacific Coast Highway or Yosemite or something
something lovely and positive and happy, as opposed to all the tragedy and suffering
that I've covered over the last three decades. But I am comfortable with the
choice that I've made because this is this is a righteous fight. It is
It is as clear cut a black and white good guy bad guy fight as
I have ever seen in my life. I covered a rock, I covered
Afghanistan, very murky, very difficult, the Middle East obviously, so many
different wars where there there is no real good guy and bad guy, because
everybody thinks they're the good guy, nobody thinks they're the bad guy. With
God on our side, I always think exactly with a Dylan song. If
everybody has gone on their side, well where are we? I'm sorry exactly
exactly the forefront of my thinking when I hear that. But when you see,
when you see the despotism of Putin and what the Russians openly say their
intent is in Ukraine, and that is in essence to destroy the identity of
Ukraine. Ethnic cleansing, rape squads, kidnapping of children. We have the
Russians openly saying and actually being proud of having abducted upwards of seven hundred thousands
This is their numbers, seven hundred thousand children they claim to have taken from
Ukraine to quote unquote re educate them and denzify them quote unquote, and to
d Ukraine in them because they don't believe that Ukraine is actually an identity.
They just see it as another version of Russian. You know. To see
that and to know that that's happening, and then also to see that in
the lives of your average Ukrainians, well I can't. I can't be objective
about that and say, well, you know, I can't be objective about
it and say that both are equal. I can be objective about it and
clearly say that there is one side that is acting deplorably, that is acting
with tactics that are should be reprehensible to anybody living in the twenty first century,
and the sheer cruelty of the Russians. And I've been under fire from
the Russians. I live in Kiev, as you well know, Frank,
and I have come under fire from drones, from missiles, attacking clear residential
areas, attacking power stations, attacking heating in a country that regularly goes into
sub zero temperatures in the winter, there's no justification for it. And so
I couldn't idly sit by and watch a country that I truly love being being
treated this way. And you know, we in our wars in Iraq and
Afghanistan, which I was a witness to when I worked for CBS, you
know, we we made plenty, we made plenty of bad decisions in those
wars, but we never did something like Buscha. We never did something like
Izium, where we where the Russians marched in, gathered people and summarily executed
them, you know, with with bullets in the back of the head,
you know, lined them up, put them on their knees and shot them.
That's I never ever saw any American soldier or NATO soldier acting in that
way. If it was repressed, you know, it was suppressed, and
that happened, it would be stunning to me that some ten fifteen years later
that it hasn't come out. And also I just know I've met so many
American and NATO soldiers. It's just not the same way. They don't operate
the same way that they have the Russians have unleashed. It's gonna there's no
way to say this without sounding it's gonna come off sounding bad. But it's
a it's a it's a group of thugs there. There's an army of absolute
thugs. There's no discipline, there's no regard for the rules of war.
It's awful. And so I know what side I'm on. Let me jump
in here, I think, because I think it's a perfect time to make
that point. I had it in my notes, but let's do it now.
What happened with Hamas recently in Israel, and people were rightfully outraged,
rightfully outraged, and the reaction was immediate. The call for aid was immediate,
approved almost immediately, and what you're talking about with the Russians in Ukraine
are so very similar and have been going on for a year now. There's
some outrage, but in my mind it's not the same. People are absolutely
beyond themselves with the Hamas atrocities. Yet as you mentioned, that's happened repeatedly
in Ukraine and it barely gets noticed, especially lately. Why is that?
Have we become war weary or be more connected to the Middle East? What
are you what are your thoughts on it? Why if one is immediate and
visceral and the other as well, Yeah, that's kind of bad. Maybe
we can do something. It's not as as definitive in terms of we've got
to be there. We've got to stop those thugs as you mentioned, as
people called which famas basically or they don't seem to care for their own people
or any beyond their own little core, and we're outraged by that. Yet
the Russians do that all the time, and it's not the same level of
outrage in my mind your thoughts, I think you're right. I think there's
some war weariness. Definitely, it's it's it's not the latest thing. We
can be distracted, not to be flippant about it, but you know,
like the new shiny object, I think there's some and I tread carefully when
I talk about this, but I think there's some ethnic element to it,
the fact that these are that in the Middle East, it's it's you know,
it's Arabs against ostensibly white Israelis, and so there's an ethnic element to
it, and people see that through that prism as opposed to two groups of
white people ostensibly European, although I argue that Russia is not part of Europe,
that Russia has a very different identity than in Europe, that there's that
as well, And again I tread carefully there because it's it's a very contentious
issue. I think. I think there's also a problem with information warfare.
The Russians are very good at information warfare offecial, especially when it comes to
the West. They know how to manipulate our perspectives. They know how to
manipulate what we see and how we see it. On the other side of
the of the battle lines. There's hardly in any reliable information coming out from
occupied Ukraine. It's only when territory is recovered where we hear the story.
I mean, we didn't know about Izium. We didn't know about Hostemel,
we didn't know about Butcha until Ukrainian forces had recovered that territory, or until
Ukrainians had snuck past the battle lines and had come into Ukraine, and we're
able to tell their stories where we learned the absolute horrific way in which the
Russians have occupied territories in the And I think so there's a there's an information
warfare aspect to why there's been a malaise to it. But it's, you
know, it's it's tough to talk about it because it's so horrific in Ukraine
and to hear it on the you do. I think there's and this is
something that I talked about with people here in La about how to we combat
this exhaustion of constantly hearing about the horrors of what's happening in Ukraine and at
some point it just gets to be too much and you shut it off.
And I understand that I sympathize with that, But to turn a blind eye
to the horrors that are having in Ukraine on a daily basis, I mean,
the way the Russians are conducting war and what they're doing there is equally
as horrific as what Hamas did. I would argue that, and would be
comfortable in making that argument. Obviously, some elements are apples and oranges,
and you can't make a direct connection, but and it's just it's too much.
And then also the other aspect to it is that the war in the
Middle East, the conflict in the Middle East, has been on the front
pages since nineteen forty eight. I mean, this has been a constant war
to decide what is the state of Israel, what is the what is the
territory that Israel can claim as theirs and the State of Israel can claim as
theirs as opposed to a conflict that I would argue equally has a very deep
historical context. I mean, this is empire, this is Russian Empire,
and Catherine the Great, who is a contemporary of George Washington and Thomas Jefferson.
She's the one that conquered the territory in Ukraine that is now being contested.
So there is a long history there that people just don't know, but
they do know the last fifty sixty seventy years of conflict in the Middle East.
So while there's a historical context for the conflict in Ukraine. It's not
a story that people know very well, whereas the conflict in the Middle East
has been on our front pages throughout the Young Kippor War, throughout the First
and the Second Intifada, you know, the occupation in the West Bank.
These are all terms that we've lived with our entire life. I would argue
that most Americans probably didn't know that there was an ethnic difference between Ukrainian and
Russians and territorial difference between Ukrainians and Russians until this war started, So that
might contribute to why folks are concentrating on the Middle But for the longest time,
most Americans called it the Ukraine. That's right, per fact, because
they had such little knowledge of it as its own country, as its own
entity. Let's talk a little bit about the messages that are being sent by
the United States to the Ukrainian people, if not directly, indirectly, and
by that I mean the election of the new speaker, Mike Johnson, who
was ultra conservative, an evangelical Christian, just give some background and has excuse
me, as I mentioned in my intro, as recently as May of this
year, voted against appropriate ating more money for Ukraine. He has subsequently recently
within the last few days, softened that stance somewhat where there were caveats he
might be willing to if there was a corruption probe and a few other caveats
before he would consider releasing money to Ukraine. What can we expect from what
you know of Mike Johnson and what kind of messages he sending to the Ukrainian
people. Well, Mike, Mike Johnson, I mean, clearly, the
search for a speaker just revealed the dysfunction within the GOP. There's no denying
that. And and so I mean, I you know, Mike Johnson is
something someone who I've had to research because he is not somebody like Jim Jordan,
you know who we know his dance because he's you know, very public
and on the on center stage, and that speaks volumes to where the GOP
is. I mean, thank good as it wasn't Jim Jordan who got in
there, because he has openly said that he wants to withdraw support from Ukraine.
As as just crazy as that is. I haven't really talked with my
Ukrainian friends given the circumstances and time difference and the fact I'm here and there,
there and all the rest of it. So I don't want to put
words in their mouth, but I strongly suspect that they they're not terribly worried
about him, about Mike Justin because they're not really worried about a lack of
support. Again, when it comes to our politicians and are and the state,
the republic that is called the United States giving its financial and military support
to Ukraine, they're not They don't see that drying up, and they're right,
it's not going to dry up overnight. And there is you know,
before you know, twenty twenty four and the elections of twenty twenty four,
there's every chance in the world that they might actually get to a place of
victory in Ukraine. Not too you know, I don't want to get overly
optimistic, and I don't have a crystal ball, obviously, but we could
before there is a shift in our governments in twenty and twenty four, we
could potentially see Ukraine in you know, get the wind at their back and
really make some changes there. And if that happens, then I think Americans
will if they see that the Ukrainian the Ukrainian armed forces are making victories that
they will continue the course. So I'm not terribly worried about the new speaker.
I really am not. He has you know, he said some things
about you know, transparency and all the rest of it, but he has
not openly said, you know, they're Nazis and as of brigade is filled
with Nazis and we shouldn't be as I've heard from the likes of my Matt
get Gates and all those kind of idiots. So I don't think they're going
to be terribly worried about the new speaker. We'll see, We'll see how
this plays out. But again it's to my mind as an American, it
just shows the dysfunction of the GOP the fact that they had to go to
this guy. That's how far down the ranks they had to go to find
this guy. And you know, I'm kind I believe in the American people
fully and wholeheartedly. But I believe we are a good country with good people,
and you know, good and bad people, just as every nation on
the world, and we just happened to be very powerful, so our good
people and our bad people can influence things disproportionately than other countries. But at
the end of the day. I maybe I'm naive. I mean, I've
seen war, I've seen how awful people can be, and we're not there.
That's not who we are. And I think, I really do strongly
believe that given if they're if the American people are given the facts and get
and given the perspective, that which I have outlined repeatedly and I won't do
again. But the Ukraine is on the side of right. Ultimately, the
good people in America, which I believe overwhelmed the bad people in America,
will make the right choice. So speaker be damned, take a break in
a minute. But before we go, one one more question Phil because it
came up. How important is it for America to be powerful, to be
a force in the world. People there are lais a fair? We've done
enough, we don't. We have our own problems, we take our own
money. We have mental health issues, we have homeless issues, migrant issues,
where cities are being overwhelmed. Why do we have to continually pour billions
of dollars into foreign countries, et cetera. Of course I'm playing the devil's
advocate. Yes, why is it? Why is it important for the United
States? Is it important for the United States to continue to be a world
power. Well, you know, to paraphrase our President Joe Biden, you
know, we are the indispensable country. There is no other nation on the
planet like us. And and I say that because we have, you know,
vast resources. We are an enormous country with access to the Atlantic and
the Pacific. We we are a bastion of liberal democracy. As flawed and
as under crisis and under threat as it is now, I still believe that
we are tenant the tenants that are laid out in the Bill of Rights,
the Constitution, and the Declaration of Independence. These are these are things that
present humanity with an alternative to what, in particular, say the Russians present.
So there's an old And I make this quote all the time because I
have struggled with this issue globally, being a foreign correspondent, I have had
this presented to me repeatedly, and I have been I have borne witness to
American involvement on the global stage. I have heard from people who are uh
who do not like America and are hypercritical of America, and they have good
reason to be, and they and they make valid points. But here's the
thing that I and I struggled with this. I struggled and I struggled with
this because of what we say is often different than what we do. But
there is a very famous letter from our greatest American leader, and I get
a little emotional about this rank because I believe strongly in this. Our greatest
American leader, Abraham Lincoln wrote a letter and it saved me. It's it
saved me from this the quicksand in which I was struggling because the Russians are
very good at making information warfare and making this point that that we're hypocrites,
that we that we talk about the rule of law, but then we break
laws all the time, that we're that we set, that we're idealistic,
we're naive, and we fall short of what it is that we claim to
be all about. Well, in eighteen fifty five, Abraham Lincoln wrote a
letter to his childhood friend who was a slave owner, and he wrote to
his name was Josh Swift. And in this letter he writes and he says,
we started this nation with the idea that all men are created equal.
We now stand at a place where the know nothings. The basically the Maga
crowd of their day say that all men are created equal, except for Catholics,
Masons. In the parliaance of the Age Negroes Jews, he said,
if the know nothings with that belief ever, actually do direct the course of
this nation, I would rather immigrate to a country like Russia, where they
do not even pretend to seek justice and liberty and just accept despotism as the
way it is. And that's the alternative that Russia gives us law. And
as often as we fall short of our ideals, we at least try.
The Russians, on the other hand, present us with an option, and
I would argue also the Chinese, but that's not my area of expertise.
They offer an alternative, which is give up on trying and and just might
makes right. And I don't want to live in that kind of world.
We may not be perfect, but at least we try to make a place
where everyone has a voice and there's rule of law, and everybody's equal under
that rule of law. And that's a big difference. There's always a wonderful
perspective. We always appreciate it. My very special guest is Phil Edner,
who has been in Ukraine reporting since the very beginning of the conflict. When
he returns, I as an international journalist and as a experienced journalist in the
Middle East, I want to get a little bit more of your perspective of
what's happening there and what may continue to happen and where we may wind up
with that. This is being Frank. We're the only way to be is
Frank. We're taking a brief break. Please don't go in with It's a
great conversation. It's an intelligent one, as we always promise to give you.
We'll be right back on GOLI. This is Hudson River Radio dut Co.
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you get your podcasts. Hudson Riverradio dot com. Welcome back to Being Frank,
the Intelligent Conversation podcast. Thanks for sticking with us. I'm your host,
Frank Legono. My very special guest is journalist Phil Edner. You know,
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Leave us a comment too, I'll surely respond all right. Our conversation
with international journalist the Lintner continues. Phil, as a experienced correspondent covering the
Middle East in your days at CBS, you have again a unique firsthand experience
there to give us your perspective what in your mind is happening there I mean,
it's so complex, there are so many shades of grays, as you
have mentioned. If you can sort through it with your feelings, especially from
someone who's been there, seen it firsthand, what do you see as what's
really going on there? Well, you know, look, the Middle East
is it's a very complex question. It's an area where you really do have
to specialize and kind of you know, concentrate. So I'll just preface whatever
I'm going to say with that is that bertises mostly in the former Soviet Union
sphere. But having said that, you know, I've spent a long time
in the Middle East in a lot of different conflicts, and I've been to
you know, the West Bank, I've been to Israel. I never got
into Gaza, but I've covered that part of the world. And it's the
problem is it is well one of the problems is it's become so entrenched and
people have have you know, have dug their heels in and have sectioned off
their space, uh and have just you know, determined that that's the way,
that's their position. What Hamas has done with this attack, with you
know, this awful attack, the worst attack in Israel's history, arguably certainly
terror wise. They they the UH Again, I don't want to be flippant,
but to make the analogy, they they're the dog that caught the car
and now they don't know that they they overstepped, to say the least,
and they and they Nobody supports AMAS at this point. I don't think nobody
of any consequence the And there's also another issue within the Middle East in that,
much like we saw in the UH Northern Ireland conflict, there are those
who benefit from the conflict. It's in their interest that the conflict continues.
Now with this sea change event of what we are witnessing right now, with
the awful, h deeply disturbing, discussing attack by Hamas and whatever response Israel
makes and Israel's gonna have to make, I mean, Israel's gonna have to
go into Gaza Israel. Israel is going to have to kill a lot of
people, you know, the Hamas leadership which will hide behind and openly says
it will hide behind women and children because that will sway public opinion. This
is going to be this is this is bad, This is really really bad.
But it's a sea change moment. And I think there are those who
have been benefiting from the conflict, who will no longer be able to benefit.
And so that's going to make a big, big, big change,
and maybe it might bring some people to the table, if I might jump
in here too. Though. It's something that struck me as you was speaking
for an organization whose mission is to create chaos. In a sense, they've
kind of fulfilled their mission in some ways. It's the deplorable nature works for
them because elicited that kind of response, a vicious response in return, which
people kind of say, well, why don't you fact, But again it
continues this vicial, vicious cycle of endless violence, because you can kill the
moss, but you can't kill the idea if you will, uh that that's
that drives them behind, which is which is hate, And when people hate
one another, in a sense, we're we're we're we're fulfilling Hamas's goal,
which is the creation of this violent chaos. They don't care, so we're
in a sense, my feeling is in a certain way, we're almost playing
right into their hands, especially with people who really don't seem to care except
for their own ideology. And again, Frank, the one of the biggest
problems in my perspective is that there are people who benefit from that chaos.
They benefit from the war. It's in their interest to continue the war because
they get power, they get money, they get all sorts of benefit.
Again to draw one of the biggest problems in finding peace in the in Northern
Ireland was the fact that you know, the American Irish community was flooding the
place with money and giving money to Shinfein and giving money to the IRA and
just in the same way that that made that made finding a peace solution in
Northern Ireland that much harder, and I would argue, prolonged that conflict far
beyond the actual reason in people's hearts for fighting the sectarian violence in Northern Ireland.
I see the same the exact same thing happening with both Palestinians, Arabs
and Israelis. So you have to disincentifize people who are benefiting from the conflict
before you can really get to a place where we can start to talk about
some kind of peace. Uh, we are not there yet, we are
very far from there. A lot of things are going to have to play
out. Is has bilagoing to get involved? Is is you know how far
is Iran going to get involved. How how much is Russia involved? We
know that we know that Russia and Hamas had a series of meetings in the
run up to these attacks. The leadership of Hamas was invited to Moscow and
sat down with Sergei Lavrov, the the foreigner Foreign Minister of Russia. Obviously
this has taken focus away from Ukraine, which I do not think is uh
is a coincidence we you know, sadly, Frank, I think we're at
a point where autocracy has hit its high water mark and we are starting to
push back. But we are the autocracies around the world and those who would
seek power through violence and despotism and everything that libert democracy aboards. They have
hit their high water mark, but they're not going to go quietly, and
we're going to have to resolve ourselves to fighting against not only the autocracy and
the despotism of people like Hamas and groups like Hamas, but also the Russians
and the Chinese, and the Iranians and you know, you know, even
the Taliban in Afghanistan. These this isn't going to go away quietly. But
I do think they've hit a high water mark. We just have to steal
ourselves and remember what it is we're fighting for and way why it is we're
on this side of the equations. As problematic and as flawed as we are,
it is better than what the alternative is offering. The alternative is offering
governance and a future where might makes right and all there is is autocracy and
despotism. I don't want to live in that world. I want to live
in a world where, as flawed as it is, people have self determination,
have a one man, one vote, people have the rule of law.
It's it binds us together. No, you know, there's the old
saying that no democracy has ever gone to war with another democracy because they're your
answerable to your people. When you're you know, when when there's despotism,
you can go down the course of war with no recourse. I mean,
arguably one of the great flaws of our going to war in Iraq was that
was that our leadership didn't listen to our people, perhaps as much as they
should have. But at the end of the day, I still believe in
America, as awful as I have seen America do some terrible things willfully or
not consciously or not. We make mistakes, We make bad decision. There
are people within our system which do not share the the the values and the
morals that I believe America stands for, and they sometimes make decisions for the
country called America. But at the end of the day, it's still better
than what Hamas or Russia or Iran are offering. I mean, look at
those, look at those those societies. There are there are pockets within all
of those societies where there's there are roots and there are little saplings that are
growing of people who want a system or more akin to ours than the despotism
that you see there. They often get stamped down. You know, Hamas
want to what was it in two thousand and seven, They want to they
want to an election that they've held on ever since. Well, that's not
a system that we I don't incourage that, notwithstanding the horrific acts that we've
seen them do. I don't believe in autocracy. I think it's not a
function. It's not it's not a better way to live. Our system,
as flawed as it is, at least at least gives power to the individual
and gives protection under law. And we have to stay the course and remember
that until we find a better way, that's the best we got, and
what Hamas and Russia and Iran and China and North Korea are offering, it's
not the kind of world I want to live in. So what does what's
the immediate future bring for Phil Ittner? Well, I'm going to be here
in the States taking care of some personal matters. I will continue to hold
some meetings on the West coast here. I'll be here for a little while
longer, but I can't stay away for too long because, you know,
until there's victory in Ukraine, I'm I'm staying there. So I will be
going back to keev In roughly about three weeks. I'll transit through London where
I have friends and affairs that I need to take care of there, and
then I'm going back. And then I'm going back, and I'll be taking
with me some you know, equipment and things for tourniquets and cold weather clothing
for soldiers and whatever support I can bring I'll bring. I'll garry with me.
It's going to be comparatively small, but I'll do what I can.
But more importantly than that, I'm going to stay in contact with the people
that i'm talking with here, and we're going to try and keep Ukraine and
the Ukrainian cause, which is a just cause. I reiterate it is not
a Nazi state, that that is Russian propaganda, it is not. There
is massive corruption, but they know better than to abuse the aid that is
coming from the West, so they are at least when it comes to Western
aid to help themselves defend themselves. That I would argue is going to be
crystal clear from corruption. And as far you know, we send delegations there
all the time. You know, the news speaker talking about like I want
to make sure that you know our aid is not being abused and that there's
transparency. The Ukrainian's answer to that is, come on over, take a
look. We will open up every book, we will show you every warehouse.
We will prove that we are using what you're giving to defend ourselves.
And I'm going to keep pushing that message as well as well as just trying
my very best to keep America from forgetting that there is an incredibly important conflict
aside from what's happening in the Middle East, that will determine the fate of
Europe, and I argue the fate of the globe. But aside from that,
even if that wasn't involved, which it very much is, and we
shouldn't forget about that. That's in integral to this whole thing. The Ukrainians
deserve peace, and they deserve a future, and they deserve a country that
isn't under the iron grip of Moscow, which is what they're fighting against.
And these are our ideals that we as Americans who fought a revolution and fought
against colonization and fought against control from an imperial leader, we should be sympathetic
sympathetic to what the Ukrainians are going through. And I'm gonna go back and
keep that message on the radar as best I can do. You remain optimistic.
I do. We're We're gonna win. We're gonna win. Ukraine is
going to win this war. I argue that they will take back Crimea,
although you know that is a big, big question, but they ultimately,
ultimately, at the end of this war, there will be a place called
Ukraine, and by their sheer survival, that will be victory. And of
that I have absolutely no doubt. And when Ukraine is free and independent and
has a solid border and it's ratified and there are protections for this have ever
happened again, and I believe that there will be victory that includes regaining all
the territory that Ukraine got in the post Soviet era, the ninety one borders.
I firmly believe that that's within our grasp if we decide it's again.
It comes back to the very beginning of our conversation, Frank, when I
told you what messages that I received prior to getting on a plane to come
back to the United States. We have a choice. Victory is a victory
through peace. Through victory and a regain and regaining Ukrainian territory to ninety one
borders is within our sights. We can achieve it. It is possible,
but we could also lose, and losing would mean thrusting Europe into a very
dark period, you know. Emanating from Moscow, we need to finally,
once and for all, decide whether or not we support Ukraine and Ukraine's efforts
for a full and lasting peace through victory. If we make that choice,
I know the Ukrainians have it within them to fight and regain and protect their
own land and build a really wonderful example of liberal democracy in Europe. There
will be a shine example all and we should be part of that. And
it's it is attainable, and if we give them the weapons, they'll do
it. We don't have to get directly involved. Just give them the means
to obtain victory and they can do it and it will be It will be
good for Europe, it will be good for America, it will be good
for the globe. As always, we like to thank Phil Hitner for your
for being Frank with your intelligent conversation. I made that up just now again,
not to be trite, Philo. I so appreciate you taking the time,
and you always take the time, no matter where time zone, and
you always speak so eloquently in your defense of Ukraine. We really appreciate it.
Please be safe and come back again. You're always welcome here. You
know that I'm at your disposal of Frank. That's why I'm That's why I'm
in Ukraine. That's why I'm always happy to talk to you. And please
spread the word, that's all I ask. We sure will. Of course,
we offer special thanks to our listeners who take the time to give us
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Let me leave you, as always with the two last what I call
nuggets. One a slogan and then some music. First from Alfred Hitchcock and
he says, if I won't be myself, who will? Simple and to
the point, very very being Frank, And of course we've got some great
music from the Ruse Brothers. Yes, they are brothers Rockabilly and Steve Ruse
and their band known collectively as the Ruse Brothers. You can catch their music
at Ruz Brothers dot bandcamp dot com and here they are with their latest release,
Nirvana. You can also catch them at the legendary Turning Point in Piermont,
New York on Saturday, November fourth, for our engineer Neil Richter.
Remember I call him the Mailman because he always delivers. I'm your host,
Frank Lebuono, and we hope to have you join us for the next being,
Frank, where the only way to be is Frank, take care me
up the sky be up to ray you you way day long? Something to
hide a ball up stand let sad thing. It's all your soul. It's
not bad, No, not in the Cha's coming down from the sky gone
if you can sure staying so. They got Hudson River Radio dot com. Ye