WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.440 --> 00:00:07.759 Hudson River Radio dot com. It beats listening to nothing. My goodness, 2 00:00:07.839 --> 00:00:15.080 Be Frank, where the only way to be is Frank, everyone, and 3 00:00:15.240 --> 00:00:20.000 welcome to Being Frank, where the only way to be is Frank. I'm 4 00:00:20.039 --> 00:00:23.000 your host, Franklbona, and I'd like to thank you for joining us on 5 00:00:23.039 --> 00:00:28.239 what we like to call the intelligent conversation podcast, where no conversation is out 6 00:00:28.239 --> 00:00:33.359 of bounds and all points of view are welcome. Being Prank covers all sorts 7 00:00:33.399 --> 00:00:39.560 of topics and streams on Hudson River Radio dot Com, located in beautiful and 8 00:00:39.719 --> 00:00:43.840 historic Stony Point, New York. But you can catch Being Frank wherever and 9 00:00:43.920 --> 00:00:49.719 whenever you listen to your favorite podcasts like Apple, iHeartRadio, Spotify and more. 10 00:00:50.280 --> 00:00:53.759 I'll give you more information on how to find and contact us a little 11 00:00:53.799 --> 00:00:59.159 later in the program. For context, this Being Frank is is being recorded 12 00:00:59.200 --> 00:01:03.159 live to take on October twenty sixth. Lately, the war in the Middle 13 00:01:03.200 --> 00:01:07.519 East has dominated the headlines. Of course, considering the scope of the conflict, 14 00:01:07.680 --> 00:01:12.640 this is completely understandable. However, there is another fight still going on, 15 00:01:14.040 --> 00:01:18.680 the consequences of which are just as dire for the international community. I'm 16 00:01:18.719 --> 00:01:22.239 referring, of course, to the war in Ukraine. For over a year, 17 00:01:22.319 --> 00:01:26.359 the people of Ukraine have bravely resisted a brutal, vicious attempt by Russia 18 00:01:26.400 --> 00:01:30.079 to occupy their ancestral lands, and in many ways, the Russians have perpetrated 19 00:01:30.120 --> 00:01:38.439 atrocities against the Ukrainian people every bit as vicious as a recent Hamas attack on 20 00:01:38.519 --> 00:01:42.920 Israel. Since the beginning of the conflict, the United States and its NATO 21 00:01:42.000 --> 00:01:48.879 allies have been supporting Ukraine with much needed cash and weapons. However, despite 22 00:01:48.920 --> 00:01:53.280 the diary percussions, that support appears to be waning. There has been talk 23 00:01:53.319 --> 00:02:00.799 among Congressional Republicans are severely limiting, if not eliminating, our support for Ukraine. 24 00:02:00.079 --> 00:02:06.519 In fact, yesterday, Republican Mike Johnson, who was as recently as 25 00:02:06.519 --> 00:02:10.000 May voted against an aid package for Ukraine, was elected Speaker of the House. 26 00:02:12.319 --> 00:02:15.800 Only one reporter that I know of has been in Ukraine since the very 27 00:02:15.960 --> 00:02:20.280 onset of the conflict. He's there on his own time and on his own 28 00:02:20.360 --> 00:02:23.719 dime because he believes in the right of the Ukrainian people to defend their sovereignty 29 00:02:24.039 --> 00:02:29.639 against a vicious opponent. He has honored us with his live reports directly from 30 00:02:29.639 --> 00:02:32.879 the battle zone on numerous occasions. He joins us once again with his unique 31 00:02:32.919 --> 00:02:37.879 perspective. Welcome back, Phil Litner, and thank you so much for joining 32 00:02:37.919 --> 00:02:43.960 us. My pleasure always a pleasure. And I know you make an effort 33 00:02:44.039 --> 00:02:49.560 in every way with time zone changes, and Ukraine is seven hours different now 34 00:02:49.560 --> 00:02:53.919 you're on the West coast, completely the other way. So tell us you're 35 00:02:53.960 --> 00:02:59.120 back home for a relatively brief vis that. What's going on with you? 36 00:02:59.280 --> 00:03:02.759 Well, I came back. I came back for a number of reasons. 37 00:03:02.319 --> 00:03:07.840 Uh some just purely personal things that I just needed to deal with. For 38 00:03:07.879 --> 00:03:10.120 example, I had a car in storage that I needed to move to a 39 00:03:10.120 --> 00:03:15.479 friend's garage, and I kind of had some you know, just personal you 40 00:03:15.520 --> 00:03:22.680 know, bits and bobs you can't do, sadly enough in Ukraine because of 41 00:03:22.719 --> 00:03:27.599 the difficulty of getting things in and out of there. So anyhow, I 42 00:03:27.639 --> 00:03:30.439 came back for that. But I also came back to LA as opposed to 43 00:03:30.479 --> 00:03:35.879 go to d C because I wanted to talk to some of the content creators. 44 00:03:36.479 --> 00:03:40.199 Uh here in Los Angeles, the media types who influence or have the 45 00:03:40.240 --> 00:03:47.159 ability to influence public opinion. While I absolutely one hundred percent support those who 46 00:03:47.159 --> 00:03:53.400 are on the hill pressuring our elected officials to keep the money flowing and the 47 00:03:53.439 --> 00:03:58.560 support, the actual the actual votes and the the the the you know, 48 00:03:58.639 --> 00:04:02.120 support of the state of the United States, the Republic. I also think 49 00:04:02.159 --> 00:04:06.520 it's important to keep this war in people's minds because, as you mentioned, 50 00:04:06.639 --> 00:04:12.479 there are other things happening in the world. I don't think those are unconnected. 51 00:04:12.520 --> 00:04:15.279 I think that there is a distinct effort by the Russians to try and 52 00:04:15.319 --> 00:04:19.160 draw attention away from Ukraine. So I wanted to come here and talk to 53 00:04:19.399 --> 00:04:27.319 those people who have the ability to create media, who have influence in the 54 00:04:27.360 --> 00:04:32.759 media sphere, to try and keep the war in Ukraine on the front pages 55 00:04:33.680 --> 00:04:38.839 and in people's consciousness. And I've had a couple of very productive meanings here. 56 00:04:38.839 --> 00:04:43.319 We'll see if they result in anything, but I'm going to do my 57 00:04:43.600 --> 00:04:48.759 darndest to try and keep Ukraine in people's consciousness because it is still a really 58 00:04:48.800 --> 00:04:57.920 important war that is very black and white. It really is. It's i 59 00:04:57.959 --> 00:05:00.560 suppose to the shades of gray and the complexity is of the war in the 60 00:05:00.600 --> 00:05:04.839 Middle East. To my mind, the war in Ukraine is very much black 61 00:05:04.879 --> 00:05:12.319 and white and It is a war of imperial aggression against a colonial nation that 62 00:05:12.439 --> 00:05:19.399 has been subjugated to Moscow's imperial rule for centuries, finally breaking free from that 63 00:05:19.560 --> 00:05:24.240 rule. And it's going to change. Whatever happens, win or lose, 64 00:05:24.480 --> 00:05:29.600 it will it will determine the fate of Europe. And by determining the fate 65 00:05:29.639 --> 00:05:33.000 of Europe, you know, our closest ally and a group of our closest 66 00:05:33.240 --> 00:05:39.399 trading partners, it will change the course of the globe. This is you 67 00:05:39.399 --> 00:05:44.800 know, this is liberal democracy pushing back against autocracies full you know, straight, 68 00:05:45.560 --> 00:05:49.319 very very clear, very easy to understand. And we have to remember 69 00:05:49.399 --> 00:05:55.519 that, and we have to support the Ukrainians there. When I left, 70 00:05:55.800 --> 00:06:00.000 I asked my Ukrainians colleagues and friends and contacts, I said, what message 71 00:06:00.120 --> 00:06:03.720 do you want me to carry with? What message do you want me to 72 00:06:03.759 --> 00:06:08.920 carry to the United States? And I had a number of people tell me 73 00:06:08.959 --> 00:06:12.560 a number of different things, but one of the things that stood out is 74 00:06:12.600 --> 00:06:16.600 that the Ukrainians told me we can win this war. We can win. 75 00:06:16.839 --> 00:06:25.600 It is victory. You know, a peace through victory is obtainable. It 76 00:06:25.680 --> 00:06:30.680 is in uh it's on the horizon, it is visible. There is a 77 00:06:30.720 --> 00:06:35.480 clear course towards it, but we can also lose. We have to make 78 00:06:35.519 --> 00:06:42.120 a choice, and the choice is between supporting the Ukrainians and their sovereignty and 79 00:06:42.199 --> 00:06:46.240 their right for self determination, and you know how all the effects that that 80 00:06:46.399 --> 00:06:49.279 will have, as I just outlined, within Europe and within the globe. 81 00:06:49.879 --> 00:06:54.560 But we need to make a choice. And one of the criticisms that has 82 00:06:54.600 --> 00:06:59.959 been leveled against the West is that there has been a drip drip drip attitude, 83 00:07:00.040 --> 00:07:03.519 this kind of incremental support for the Ukrainians. And what I'm hearing from 84 00:07:03.759 --> 00:07:08.439 Ukrainians as I was coming back to the States was, you know, they're 85 00:07:08.639 --> 00:07:14.959 obviously grateful for the support, and they don't like the incremental way that it's 86 00:07:14.959 --> 00:07:17.839 being given, but they also understand that, you know, as my grandmother 87 00:07:17.959 --> 00:07:20.879 used to say, beggars can't be choosers. But at the end of the 88 00:07:20.959 --> 00:07:24.879 day, they also say, look, it's in your best interest too. 89 00:07:25.199 --> 00:07:30.680 It's in everybody's best interest that this war is finished and we can do it. 90 00:07:30.759 --> 00:07:33.839 The Ukrainians say, we see a path the victory and through victory peace, 91 00:07:34.680 --> 00:07:41.920 but the result has to remain and if the West chooses makes a conscious 92 00:07:42.079 --> 00:07:47.879 choice not to wholeheartedly support Ukraine. There is a possibility that they could lose. 93 00:07:47.920 --> 00:07:50.839 They could lose territory, they could lose the dawn Bass out in the 94 00:07:50.879 --> 00:07:55.800 east, the contestant area of Ukraine. They could lose Crimea, they could 95 00:07:55.800 --> 00:08:01.759 lose Odessa. There are scenarios where the Ukrainians end up were saw far worse 96 00:08:01.839 --> 00:08:07.800 off than they were when this war support started, and that will only embolden 97 00:08:07.879 --> 00:08:13.439 the Russia. So the message the long way around, as I get when 98 00:08:13.560 --> 00:08:16.079 you know, as I get chatty, but the long way around to it 99 00:08:16.120 --> 00:08:20.319 is this, make a choice, guys. Is the message that Ukrainians are 100 00:08:20.319 --> 00:08:26.519 saying. Choose to defend liberal democracy, choose to support Ukraine, because if 101 00:08:26.519 --> 00:08:30.800 you don't make that choice, and if you don't support them in their efforts 102 00:08:30.920 --> 00:08:35.360 very victory, there's still a possibility, a very real possibility, that they 103 00:08:35.399 --> 00:08:37.960 lose. It will be bloody, there will be If we wouldraw our support, 104 00:08:39.720 --> 00:08:43.559 the fighting will not stop if we were throwing support. What will happen 105 00:08:43.639 --> 00:08:46.519 is there will be an insurgency, There will be a gorilla war. This 106 00:08:46.559 --> 00:08:48.919 will drag on for years and years and years, and it will be even 107 00:08:50.000 --> 00:08:52.919 more bloody in some ways than it is now. It will be even more 108 00:08:54.039 --> 00:08:58.080 vicious. It's interesting, Frank that in your introduction there you talk about the 109 00:08:58.159 --> 00:09:03.320 destruction that we're being in the Middle East. Well, you know, in 110 00:09:03.360 --> 00:09:07.399 particular, you know, the world got up in arms when the hospital there 111 00:09:07.480 --> 00:09:13.080 was that incident with the hospital in Gaza, to which the Ukrainians say, 112 00:09:13.240 --> 00:09:18.200 we lose a hospital pretty much every month we get we get a hospital hit 113 00:09:18.759 --> 00:09:22.559 it or take. Every month the Russians strike a hospital with no justification. 114 00:09:22.720 --> 00:09:28.360 There There are no Hamas fighters or Ukrainian guerrillas hiding in Ukrainian hospitals. That's 115 00:09:28.399 --> 00:09:35.200 not how they operate. The Russians are striking hospitals specifically to destroy the infrastructure 116 00:09:35.240 --> 00:09:41.039 and specifically to destroy aid to those Ukrainian wounded. It's terrorism. But the 117 00:09:41.120 --> 00:09:46.159 Ukrainians yeah, no, go ahead, Well I get long winded. No, 118 00:09:46.279 --> 00:09:48.080 it's all right, because you have a lot to say, and it's 119 00:09:48.120 --> 00:09:52.720 a lot of good stuff to say, so of course, please continue to 120 00:09:52.759 --> 00:09:56.679 do so. And I want to develop that point too, some of the 121 00:09:56.679 --> 00:10:03.639 similarities between the conflicts and develop why there seems to be a certain attitude towards 122 00:10:03.639 --> 00:10:07.200 one and a different attitudes towards the other. And I'll get to that in 123 00:10:07.200 --> 00:10:09.639 a minute. But you noticed, but you mentioned, excuse me, that 124 00:10:09.679 --> 00:10:16.720 you did meet with some so called media types to advance the word of what's 125 00:10:16.120 --> 00:10:20.440 actually happening there. And I noticed on your Facebook page, and i'll plug 126 00:10:20.480 --> 00:10:24.320 you here. You have a public Facebook page where you post your videos from 127 00:10:24.399 --> 00:10:28.279 Ukraine. I follow it regularly. I recommend others do as well for the 128 00:10:28.360 --> 00:10:33.200 latest breaking news from Ukraine. And I noticed that you had a photo with 129 00:10:33.559 --> 00:10:37.120 Sean Penn, a well known name of the so called media type and actor 130 00:10:37.200 --> 00:10:43.159 turned activist director. What's someone like his stature? What is his feeling and 131 00:10:43.200 --> 00:10:46.039 do you believe he can help? Can he help get the message out? 132 00:10:46.440 --> 00:10:50.919 Well, he's already done a fantastic documentary called Superpower, which I think you 133 00:10:50.919 --> 00:11:00.000 can stream on Paramount Plus. That is his It's a documentary that he plays 134 00:11:00.200 --> 00:11:07.039 to do before the full scale invasion about Volodimitter Zolensky and how President Zelenski transitioned 135 00:11:07.039 --> 00:11:09.720 from a media figure in a comic to the leader of a country. And 136 00:11:09.799 --> 00:11:13.559 he had intended to do it before the full scale invasion, but he began 137 00:11:13.679 --> 00:11:18.519 filming it and the Russians did invade on February twenty fourth, twenty twenty two, 138 00:11:18.559 --> 00:11:22.840 and he was there for that thinking that Zelensky would have his hands far 139 00:11:22.879 --> 00:11:28.279 too full to deal with the documentary crew. He was shocked to find that 140 00:11:28.399 --> 00:11:31.759 actually no, the Ukrainian president invited him into his bunker the day of the 141 00:11:31.759 --> 00:11:39.279 invasion. It is a very strong documentary. I recommend everybody go and watch 142 00:11:39.320 --> 00:11:48.360 it if you have access to paramount plus and I mean chompin. In my 143 00:11:48.480 --> 00:11:54.519 meeting with him, he's he's full on board behind Ukraine. He is one 144 00:11:54.600 --> 00:12:00.600 hundred percent there, and he's he's prescient. He's conscious and conscious of what 145 00:12:00.720 --> 00:12:03.799 he is doing. He is conscious of why this is a good fight, 146 00:12:03.879 --> 00:12:09.360 why this is this is something that needs to be supported. Uh and so 147 00:12:09.440 --> 00:12:13.679 that not only is the documentary there, but he's got aid groups and we 148 00:12:13.759 --> 00:12:18.200 discussed other, you know, potential ways to keep this in the consciousness of 149 00:12:18.240 --> 00:12:24.559 people. But make no doubt about it. He is one hundred percent pro 150 00:12:24.720 --> 00:12:28.519 Ukrainian. He is He's in it, as am I, as in as 151 00:12:28.799 --> 00:12:35.480 are many people who I'm here in l a meeting with one hundred percent in 152 00:12:35.559 --> 00:12:39.639 support of Ukraine. It's just how do we get it into the public sphere. 153 00:12:39.720 --> 00:12:43.360 I mean we can, we can talk about all sorts of potential, 154 00:12:43.399 --> 00:12:48.600 but ultimately it's it's it's getting it out to the larger numbers who may be 155 00:12:50.240 --> 00:12:54.759 war weary, they may be changing their focus to the Middle East or what 156 00:12:54.879 --> 00:12:58.000 have you. But there are people here I was, I met with I 157 00:12:58.080 --> 00:13:03.360 met with Sean Payn, I met with Malcolm Nance, I met with a 158 00:13:03.440 --> 00:13:09.600 number of people here in la who do see the threat. It's just what 159 00:13:09.639 --> 00:13:13.720 can we do about it? What can we what content can we create to 160 00:13:13.799 --> 00:13:20.360 keep it in people's minds, And we're not giving up, and we're going 161 00:13:20.440 --> 00:13:24.559 to keep at it. You know, Generally, people are not afraid that 162 00:13:26.399 --> 00:13:28.879 Americans will support U Grain because it is a righteous and a good fight, 163 00:13:30.080 --> 00:13:33.240 and it's very similar to our revolution. As we've discussed in the past that 164 00:13:33.320 --> 00:13:41.200 it's a seventeen seventy six moment for a colonial nation that has been living under 165 00:13:41.559 --> 00:13:46.679 the thumb of an empire. In Moscow, it's very similar to the Thirteen 166 00:13:46.759 --> 00:13:50.519 Colonies and Great Britain, and many people here see that as well, so 167 00:13:52.000 --> 00:13:56.840 Americans. The consensus of the people that I'm talking to is that Americans will 168 00:13:56.879 --> 00:14:01.320 support you Grain. They just need to be reminded and they need to have 169 00:14:01.399 --> 00:14:07.919 it. You know it needs to be you know, reinforced. I suppose 170 00:14:09.039 --> 00:14:13.399 so, and we're confident we can do that. Let's let's address something as 171 00:14:13.720 --> 00:14:16.360 as colleagues, as fellow journalists, and it's been drummed in our heads from 172 00:14:16.360 --> 00:14:22.000 the beginning, objectivity, don't you side? But that doesn't always work either, 173 00:14:22.080 --> 00:14:28.879 total objectivity. There there there are sometimes clear cut lines between good guys 174 00:14:28.159 --> 00:14:31.799 and bad guys, and I think that's something that you want to make the 175 00:14:31.840 --> 00:14:37.480 point you are an intensely experienced journalist who has covered the war in the Middle 176 00:14:37.519 --> 00:14:43.000 East, et cetera. Uh, but but you've chosen a side here despite 177 00:14:43.080 --> 00:14:46.480 what we've always been trained since our early days as journalists. Objectivity. Objectivity, 178 00:14:46.519 --> 00:14:52.240 Well, sometimes that doesn't work because sometimes you have to see, you 179 00:14:52.279 --> 00:14:54.879 have to say exactly what you see, and in this particular case, you 180 00:14:54.919 --> 00:14:58.480 see a good guy and a bad guy who developed that a little bit. 181 00:14:58.559 --> 00:15:01.159 Again, as as a journalist, you're right, you're right. I mean 182 00:15:01.200 --> 00:15:05.600 I have never taken aside in any conflict that I not consciously. I'm of 183 00:15:05.600 --> 00:15:09.639 course, every human being has a bias, but I have I have worked 184 00:15:09.679 --> 00:15:16.440 throughout my career to limit my bias and UH to try and be as objective 185 00:15:16.480 --> 00:15:20.559 as as I possibly can not in this case, not in this case, 186 00:15:20.600 --> 00:15:31.759 and while I still I still ethically maintain my journalistic standards in other areas, 187 00:15:31.799 --> 00:15:35.679 like you know, trying to to report things as I see them on the 188 00:15:35.679 --> 00:15:41.519 ground as objectively as possible, but bigger in the yeah, factually when something 189 00:15:41.559 --> 00:15:46.240 happens, because that's important. You can't, you know, it's counterproductive to 190 00:15:46.279 --> 00:15:50.039 be a liar or a propagandist. I am not a propagandist. I have, 191 00:15:50.200 --> 00:15:54.840 however, chosen a side and that and that puts me in a very 192 00:15:54.879 --> 00:16:00.080 different situation than what I've experienced in my entire career. And I'm comfortable with 193 00:16:00.159 --> 00:16:03.840 that. I'm okay with that. I'm on the side of Ukraine. I 194 00:16:03.879 --> 00:16:07.360 love Ukraine. I love Ukrainian people, I love the culture, I love 195 00:16:07.399 --> 00:16:15.200 the land. I love the food, the music, the literature, the 196 00:16:15.240 --> 00:16:19.080 painting, everything. There's so much about Ukraine that I truly adore, and 197 00:16:19.120 --> 00:16:25.720 so when it was attacked, I made a conscious choice to step in on 198 00:16:25.799 --> 00:16:30.519 the side of Ukraine. So I am openly saying that I am on the 199 00:16:30.600 --> 00:16:34.440 side of Ukraine, and that to me is different than anything I've ever done 200 00:16:34.480 --> 00:16:40.200 in my career because it's important. I believe in war reporting in particular, 201 00:16:40.360 --> 00:16:45.399 it's very important to maintain objectivity. But in this case, in this particular 202 00:16:45.480 --> 00:16:48.279 case, this war, and I hope to God it's my last war, 203 00:16:48.320 --> 00:16:52.919 because I never want to cover a war again. I've had, I've had 204 00:16:52.919 --> 00:16:55.639 a belly full, I'm up to my neck in it, and I'm done. 205 00:16:56.360 --> 00:16:57.600 If it was not Ukraine, I wouldn't be doing this. I'd be 206 00:16:57.679 --> 00:17:03.200 retired and doing documentary. He's about the Pacific Coast Highway or Yosemite or something 207 00:17:03.519 --> 00:17:08.079 something lovely and positive and happy, as opposed to all the tragedy and suffering 208 00:17:08.119 --> 00:17:17.079 that I've covered over the last three decades. But I am comfortable with the 209 00:17:17.200 --> 00:17:21.039 choice that I've made because this is this is a righteous fight. It is 210 00:17:21.640 --> 00:17:26.960 It is as clear cut a black and white good guy bad guy fight as 211 00:17:26.000 --> 00:17:29.920 I have ever seen in my life. I covered a rock, I covered 212 00:17:29.960 --> 00:17:33.880 Afghanistan, very murky, very difficult, the Middle East obviously, so many 213 00:17:33.880 --> 00:17:38.079 different wars where there there is no real good guy and bad guy, because 214 00:17:38.119 --> 00:17:41.720 everybody thinks they're the good guy, nobody thinks they're the bad guy. With 215 00:17:41.880 --> 00:17:45.640 God on our side, I always think exactly with a Dylan song. If 216 00:17:45.680 --> 00:17:51.000 everybody has gone on their side, well where are we? I'm sorry exactly 217 00:17:51.079 --> 00:17:55.720 exactly the forefront of my thinking when I hear that. But when you see, 218 00:17:56.240 --> 00:18:00.720 when you see the despotism of Putin and what the Russians openly say their 219 00:18:00.759 --> 00:18:06.440 intent is in Ukraine, and that is in essence to destroy the identity of 220 00:18:06.519 --> 00:18:14.759 Ukraine. Ethnic cleansing, rape squads, kidnapping of children. We have the 221 00:18:14.839 --> 00:18:21.720 Russians openly saying and actually being proud of having abducted upwards of seven hundred thousands 222 00:18:21.720 --> 00:18:26.319 This is their numbers, seven hundred thousand children they claim to have taken from 223 00:18:26.440 --> 00:18:32.839 Ukraine to quote unquote re educate them and denzify them quote unquote, and to 224 00:18:33.119 --> 00:18:38.599 d Ukraine in them because they don't believe that Ukraine is actually an identity. 225 00:18:38.640 --> 00:18:44.799 They just see it as another version of Russian. You know. To see 226 00:18:44.799 --> 00:18:49.200 that and to know that that's happening, and then also to see that in 227 00:18:49.240 --> 00:18:53.440 the lives of your average Ukrainians, well I can't. I can't be objective 228 00:18:53.480 --> 00:18:57.680 about that and say, well, you know, I can't be objective about 229 00:18:57.680 --> 00:19:03.200 it and say that both are equal. I can be objective about it and 230 00:19:03.839 --> 00:19:10.480 clearly say that there is one side that is acting deplorably, that is acting 231 00:19:11.720 --> 00:19:15.759 with tactics that are should be reprehensible to anybody living in the twenty first century, 232 00:19:17.880 --> 00:19:21.400 and the sheer cruelty of the Russians. And I've been under fire from 233 00:19:21.400 --> 00:19:23.799 the Russians. I live in Kiev, as you well know, Frank, 234 00:19:25.240 --> 00:19:30.160 and I have come under fire from drones, from missiles, attacking clear residential 235 00:19:30.759 --> 00:19:37.480 areas, attacking power stations, attacking heating in a country that regularly goes into 236 00:19:37.519 --> 00:19:41.559 sub zero temperatures in the winter, there's no justification for it. And so 237 00:19:41.839 --> 00:19:48.240 I couldn't idly sit by and watch a country that I truly love being being 238 00:19:48.359 --> 00:19:52.079 treated this way. And you know, we in our wars in Iraq and 239 00:19:52.119 --> 00:19:59.319 Afghanistan, which I was a witness to when I worked for CBS, you 240 00:19:59.359 --> 00:20:03.559 know, we we made plenty, we made plenty of bad decisions in those 241 00:20:03.599 --> 00:20:08.799 wars, but we never did something like Buscha. We never did something like 242 00:20:08.920 --> 00:20:15.519 Izium, where we where the Russians marched in, gathered people and summarily executed 243 00:20:15.519 --> 00:20:17.880 them, you know, with with bullets in the back of the head, 244 00:20:18.480 --> 00:20:21.359 you know, lined them up, put them on their knees and shot them. 245 00:20:21.759 --> 00:20:27.359 That's I never ever saw any American soldier or NATO soldier acting in that 246 00:20:27.440 --> 00:20:30.359 way. If it was repressed, you know, it was suppressed, and 247 00:20:30.559 --> 00:20:36.319 that happened, it would be stunning to me that some ten fifteen years later 248 00:20:36.359 --> 00:20:38.640 that it hasn't come out. And also I just know I've met so many 249 00:20:38.640 --> 00:20:42.400 American and NATO soldiers. It's just not the same way. They don't operate 250 00:20:42.440 --> 00:20:47.640 the same way that they have the Russians have unleashed. It's gonna there's no 251 00:20:47.680 --> 00:20:52.279 way to say this without sounding it's gonna come off sounding bad. But it's 252 00:20:52.319 --> 00:20:57.039 a it's a it's a group of thugs there. There's an army of absolute 253 00:20:57.160 --> 00:21:03.799 thugs. There's no discipline, there's no regard for the rules of war. 254 00:21:03.039 --> 00:21:07.480 It's awful. And so I know what side I'm on. Let me jump 255 00:21:07.519 --> 00:21:10.119 in here, I think, because I think it's a perfect time to make 256 00:21:10.160 --> 00:21:11.920 that point. I had it in my notes, but let's do it now. 257 00:21:14.160 --> 00:21:19.519 What happened with Hamas recently in Israel, and people were rightfully outraged, 258 00:21:19.880 --> 00:21:27.599 rightfully outraged, and the reaction was immediate. The call for aid was immediate, 259 00:21:29.359 --> 00:21:33.200 approved almost immediately, and what you're talking about with the Russians in Ukraine 260 00:21:33.680 --> 00:21:40.160 are so very similar and have been going on for a year now. There's 261 00:21:40.440 --> 00:21:45.519 some outrage, but in my mind it's not the same. People are absolutely 262 00:21:47.359 --> 00:21:52.759 beyond themselves with the Hamas atrocities. Yet as you mentioned, that's happened repeatedly 263 00:21:52.799 --> 00:21:59.599 in Ukraine and it barely gets noticed, especially lately. Why is that? 264 00:21:59.640 --> 00:22:03.400 Have we become war weary or be more connected to the Middle East? What 265 00:22:03.440 --> 00:22:07.079 are you what are your thoughts on it? Why if one is immediate and 266 00:22:07.240 --> 00:22:11.720 visceral and the other as well, Yeah, that's kind of bad. Maybe 267 00:22:11.759 --> 00:22:17.039 we can do something. It's not as as definitive in terms of we've got 268 00:22:17.039 --> 00:22:19.400 to be there. We've got to stop those thugs as you mentioned, as 269 00:22:19.440 --> 00:22:23.359 people called which famas basically or they don't seem to care for their own people 270 00:22:23.440 --> 00:22:29.240 or any beyond their own little core, and we're outraged by that. Yet 271 00:22:29.240 --> 00:22:33.559 the Russians do that all the time, and it's not the same level of 272 00:22:33.640 --> 00:22:37.480 outrage in my mind your thoughts, I think you're right. I think there's 273 00:22:37.519 --> 00:22:47.000 some war weariness. Definitely, it's it's it's not the latest thing. We 274 00:22:47.079 --> 00:22:49.200 can be distracted, not to be flippant about it, but you know, 275 00:22:49.279 --> 00:22:55.799 like the new shiny object, I think there's some and I tread carefully when 276 00:22:55.839 --> 00:23:00.240 I talk about this, but I think there's some ethnic element to it, 277 00:23:00.839 --> 00:23:04.880 the fact that these are that in the Middle East, it's it's you know, 278 00:23:04.920 --> 00:23:11.720 it's Arabs against ostensibly white Israelis, and so there's an ethnic element to 279 00:23:11.759 --> 00:23:17.039 it, and people see that through that prism as opposed to two groups of 280 00:23:17.039 --> 00:23:22.400 white people ostensibly European, although I argue that Russia is not part of Europe, 281 00:23:22.519 --> 00:23:26.480 that Russia has a very different identity than in Europe, that there's that 282 00:23:26.759 --> 00:23:32.160 as well, And again I tread carefully there because it's it's a very contentious 283 00:23:32.200 --> 00:23:42.000 issue. I think. I think there's also a problem with information warfare. 284 00:23:42.920 --> 00:23:48.599 The Russians are very good at information warfare offecial, especially when it comes to 285 00:23:48.640 --> 00:23:52.039 the West. They know how to manipulate our perspectives. They know how to 286 00:23:52.079 --> 00:23:56.799 manipulate what we see and how we see it. On the other side of 287 00:23:56.799 --> 00:24:02.759 the of the battle lines. There's hardly in any reliable information coming out from 288 00:24:02.799 --> 00:24:07.039 occupied Ukraine. It's only when territory is recovered where we hear the story. 289 00:24:07.039 --> 00:24:12.400 I mean, we didn't know about Izium. We didn't know about Hostemel, 290 00:24:12.559 --> 00:24:19.680 we didn't know about Butcha until Ukrainian forces had recovered that territory, or until 291 00:24:21.079 --> 00:24:25.720 Ukrainians had snuck past the battle lines and had come into Ukraine, and we're 292 00:24:25.759 --> 00:24:30.960 able to tell their stories where we learned the absolute horrific way in which the 293 00:24:30.319 --> 00:24:36.119 Russians have occupied territories in the And I think so there's a there's an information 294 00:24:36.279 --> 00:24:45.559 warfare aspect to why there's been a malaise to it. But it's, you 295 00:24:45.559 --> 00:24:52.759 know, it's it's tough to talk about it because it's so horrific in Ukraine 296 00:24:52.960 --> 00:24:56.319 and to hear it on the you do. I think there's and this is 297 00:24:56.359 --> 00:25:00.680 something that I talked about with people here in La about how to we combat 298 00:25:00.920 --> 00:25:10.759 this exhaustion of constantly hearing about the horrors of what's happening in Ukraine and at 299 00:25:10.799 --> 00:25:15.200 some point it just gets to be too much and you shut it off. 300 00:25:15.279 --> 00:25:19.319 And I understand that I sympathize with that, But to turn a blind eye 301 00:25:19.359 --> 00:25:25.359 to the horrors that are having in Ukraine on a daily basis, I mean, 302 00:25:25.799 --> 00:25:30.400 the way the Russians are conducting war and what they're doing there is equally 303 00:25:30.480 --> 00:25:33.920 as horrific as what Hamas did. I would argue that, and would be 304 00:25:33.960 --> 00:25:37.759 comfortable in making that argument. Obviously, some elements are apples and oranges, 305 00:25:37.759 --> 00:25:44.319 and you can't make a direct connection, but and it's just it's too much. 306 00:25:44.359 --> 00:25:48.200 And then also the other aspect to it is that the war in the 307 00:25:48.200 --> 00:25:53.319 Middle East, the conflict in the Middle East, has been on the front 308 00:25:53.319 --> 00:25:57.440 pages since nineteen forty eight. I mean, this has been a constant war 309 00:26:00.359 --> 00:26:03.279 to decide what is the state of Israel, what is the what is the 310 00:26:03.359 --> 00:26:10.240 territory that Israel can claim as theirs and the State of Israel can claim as 311 00:26:10.279 --> 00:26:15.799 theirs as opposed to a conflict that I would argue equally has a very deep 312 00:26:17.119 --> 00:26:22.880 historical context. I mean, this is empire, this is Russian Empire, 313 00:26:22.000 --> 00:26:29.000 and Catherine the Great, who is a contemporary of George Washington and Thomas Jefferson. 314 00:26:29.440 --> 00:26:33.400 She's the one that conquered the territory in Ukraine that is now being contested. 315 00:26:33.599 --> 00:26:38.759 So there is a long history there that people just don't know, but 316 00:26:38.839 --> 00:26:44.319 they do know the last fifty sixty seventy years of conflict in the Middle East. 317 00:26:45.240 --> 00:26:49.160 So while there's a historical context for the conflict in Ukraine. It's not 318 00:26:49.200 --> 00:26:53.440 a story that people know very well, whereas the conflict in the Middle East 319 00:26:53.440 --> 00:26:59.480 has been on our front pages throughout the Young Kippor War, throughout the First 320 00:26:59.480 --> 00:27:03.160 and the Second Intifada, you know, the occupation in the West Bank. 321 00:27:03.279 --> 00:27:06.799 These are all terms that we've lived with our entire life. I would argue 322 00:27:06.839 --> 00:27:11.480 that most Americans probably didn't know that there was an ethnic difference between Ukrainian and 323 00:27:11.559 --> 00:27:17.759 Russians and territorial difference between Ukrainians and Russians until this war started, So that 324 00:27:17.880 --> 00:27:22.319 might contribute to why folks are concentrating on the Middle But for the longest time, 325 00:27:22.319 --> 00:27:26.799 most Americans called it the Ukraine. That's right, per fact, because 326 00:27:26.839 --> 00:27:30.400 they had such little knowledge of it as its own country, as its own 327 00:27:30.599 --> 00:27:36.839 entity. Let's talk a little bit about the messages that are being sent by 328 00:27:36.880 --> 00:27:41.240 the United States to the Ukrainian people, if not directly, indirectly, and 329 00:27:41.279 --> 00:27:45.720 by that I mean the election of the new speaker, Mike Johnson, who 330 00:27:45.799 --> 00:27:52.200 was ultra conservative, an evangelical Christian, just give some background and has excuse 331 00:27:52.240 --> 00:27:56.920 me, as I mentioned in my intro, as recently as May of this 332 00:27:56.079 --> 00:28:04.079 year, voted against appropriate ating more money for Ukraine. He has subsequently recently 333 00:28:04.400 --> 00:28:10.480 within the last few days, softened that stance somewhat where there were caveats he 334 00:28:10.559 --> 00:28:15.599 might be willing to if there was a corruption probe and a few other caveats 335 00:28:15.680 --> 00:28:21.200 before he would consider releasing money to Ukraine. What can we expect from what 336 00:28:21.279 --> 00:28:25.319 you know of Mike Johnson and what kind of messages he sending to the Ukrainian 337 00:28:25.359 --> 00:28:27.960 people. Well, Mike, Mike Johnson, I mean, clearly, the 338 00:28:29.599 --> 00:28:36.480 search for a speaker just revealed the dysfunction within the GOP. There's no denying 339 00:28:36.559 --> 00:28:41.160 that. And and so I mean, I you know, Mike Johnson is 340 00:28:41.200 --> 00:28:45.799 something someone who I've had to research because he is not somebody like Jim Jordan, 341 00:28:48.079 --> 00:28:52.920 you know who we know his dance because he's you know, very public 342 00:28:52.519 --> 00:28:57.920 and on the on center stage, and that speaks volumes to where the GOP 343 00:28:59.160 --> 00:29:00.559 is. I mean, thank good as it wasn't Jim Jordan who got in 344 00:29:00.599 --> 00:29:06.599 there, because he has openly said that he wants to withdraw support from Ukraine. 345 00:29:06.680 --> 00:29:14.960 As as just crazy as that is. I haven't really talked with my 346 00:29:15.079 --> 00:29:18.640 Ukrainian friends given the circumstances and time difference and the fact I'm here and there, 347 00:29:18.640 --> 00:29:22.720 there and all the rest of it. So I don't want to put 348 00:29:22.759 --> 00:29:27.720 words in their mouth, but I strongly suspect that they they're not terribly worried 349 00:29:27.799 --> 00:29:34.079 about him, about Mike Justin because they're not really worried about a lack of 350 00:29:34.119 --> 00:29:38.680 support. Again, when it comes to our politicians and are and the state, 351 00:29:40.200 --> 00:29:47.720 the republic that is called the United States giving its financial and military support 352 00:29:47.799 --> 00:29:49.839 to Ukraine, they're not They don't see that drying up, and they're right, 353 00:29:49.880 --> 00:29:55.359 it's not going to dry up overnight. And there is you know, 354 00:29:56.119 --> 00:29:59.960 before you know, twenty twenty four and the elections of twenty twenty four, 355 00:30:00.480 --> 00:30:03.599 there's every chance in the world that they might actually get to a place of 356 00:30:03.759 --> 00:30:08.480 victory in Ukraine. Not too you know, I don't want to get overly 357 00:30:08.480 --> 00:30:12.759 optimistic, and I don't have a crystal ball, obviously, but we could 358 00:30:12.839 --> 00:30:18.680 before there is a shift in our governments in twenty and twenty four, we 359 00:30:19.279 --> 00:30:26.359 could potentially see Ukraine in you know, get the wind at their back and 360 00:30:26.400 --> 00:30:30.400 really make some changes there. And if that happens, then I think Americans 361 00:30:30.440 --> 00:30:34.680 will if they see that the Ukrainian the Ukrainian armed forces are making victories that 362 00:30:36.079 --> 00:30:41.400 they will continue the course. So I'm not terribly worried about the new speaker. 363 00:30:41.480 --> 00:30:44.920 I really am not. He has you know, he said some things 364 00:30:44.920 --> 00:30:48.240 about you know, transparency and all the rest of it, but he has 365 00:30:48.279 --> 00:30:52.759 not openly said, you know, they're Nazis and as of brigade is filled 366 00:30:52.759 --> 00:30:56.319 with Nazis and we shouldn't be as I've heard from the likes of my Matt 367 00:30:56.400 --> 00:31:03.160 get Gates and all those kind of idiots. So I don't think they're going 368 00:31:03.240 --> 00:31:08.200 to be terribly worried about the new speaker. We'll see, We'll see how 369 00:31:08.240 --> 00:31:14.880 this plays out. But again it's to my mind as an American, it 370 00:31:15.000 --> 00:31:18.359 just shows the dysfunction of the GOP the fact that they had to go to 371 00:31:18.400 --> 00:31:22.279 this guy. That's how far down the ranks they had to go to find 372 00:31:22.279 --> 00:31:26.559 this guy. And you know, I'm kind I believe in the American people 373 00:31:26.880 --> 00:31:32.920 fully and wholeheartedly. But I believe we are a good country with good people, 374 00:31:33.119 --> 00:31:36.559 and you know, good and bad people, just as every nation on 375 00:31:36.640 --> 00:31:40.680 the world, and we just happened to be very powerful, so our good 376 00:31:40.720 --> 00:31:45.000 people and our bad people can influence things disproportionately than other countries. But at 377 00:31:45.000 --> 00:31:49.319 the end of the day. I maybe I'm naive. I mean, I've 378 00:31:49.359 --> 00:31:56.680 seen war, I've seen how awful people can be, and we're not there. 379 00:31:56.720 --> 00:32:00.599 That's not who we are. And I think, I really do strongly 380 00:32:00.640 --> 00:32:05.480 believe that given if they're if the American people are given the facts and get 381 00:32:05.519 --> 00:32:09.799 and given the perspective, that which I have outlined repeatedly and I won't do 382 00:32:09.839 --> 00:32:15.839 again. But the Ukraine is on the side of right. Ultimately, the 383 00:32:15.960 --> 00:32:20.359 good people in America, which I believe overwhelmed the bad people in America, 384 00:32:20.440 --> 00:32:24.559 will make the right choice. So speaker be damned, take a break in 385 00:32:24.559 --> 00:32:28.519 a minute. But before we go, one one more question Phil because it 386 00:32:29.079 --> 00:32:35.759 came up. How important is it for America to be powerful, to be 387 00:32:36.039 --> 00:32:38.720 a force in the world. People there are lais a fair? We've done 388 00:32:38.839 --> 00:32:42.400 enough, we don't. We have our own problems, we take our own 389 00:32:42.440 --> 00:32:45.799 money. We have mental health issues, we have homeless issues, migrant issues, 390 00:32:45.880 --> 00:32:51.720 where cities are being overwhelmed. Why do we have to continually pour billions 391 00:32:51.720 --> 00:32:54.440 of dollars into foreign countries, et cetera. Of course I'm playing the devil's 392 00:32:54.480 --> 00:32:59.599 advocate. Yes, why is it? Why is it important for the United 393 00:32:59.640 --> 00:33:02.319 States? Is it important for the United States to continue to be a world 394 00:33:02.480 --> 00:33:07.079 power. Well, you know, to paraphrase our President Joe Biden, you 395 00:33:07.079 --> 00:33:10.680 know, we are the indispensable country. There is no other nation on the 396 00:33:10.720 --> 00:33:16.480 planet like us. And and I say that because we have, you know, 397 00:33:16.680 --> 00:33:22.200 vast resources. We are an enormous country with access to the Atlantic and 398 00:33:22.240 --> 00:33:28.920 the Pacific. We we are a bastion of liberal democracy. As flawed and 399 00:33:29.119 --> 00:33:32.799 as under crisis and under threat as it is now, I still believe that 400 00:33:32.839 --> 00:33:36.839 we are tenant the tenants that are laid out in the Bill of Rights, 401 00:33:37.160 --> 00:33:42.440 the Constitution, and the Declaration of Independence. These are these are things that 402 00:33:42.559 --> 00:33:46.839 present humanity with an alternative to what, in particular, say the Russians present. 403 00:33:47.319 --> 00:33:51.799 So there's an old And I make this quote all the time because I 404 00:33:51.920 --> 00:33:57.039 have struggled with this issue globally, being a foreign correspondent, I have had 405 00:33:57.079 --> 00:34:00.640 this presented to me repeatedly, and I have been I have borne witness to 406 00:34:00.279 --> 00:34:07.519 American involvement on the global stage. I have heard from people who are uh 407 00:34:07.280 --> 00:34:12.960 who do not like America and are hypercritical of America, and they have good 408 00:34:13.039 --> 00:34:16.119 reason to be, and they and they make valid points. But here's the 409 00:34:16.199 --> 00:34:20.480 thing that I and I struggled with this. I struggled and I struggled with 410 00:34:20.559 --> 00:34:24.159 this because of what we say is often different than what we do. But 411 00:34:24.199 --> 00:34:29.079 there is a very famous letter from our greatest American leader, and I get 412 00:34:29.079 --> 00:34:32.480 a little emotional about this rank because I believe strongly in this. Our greatest 413 00:34:32.559 --> 00:34:37.679 American leader, Abraham Lincoln wrote a letter and it saved me. It's it 414 00:34:37.800 --> 00:34:45.519 saved me from this the quicksand in which I was struggling because the Russians are 415 00:34:45.639 --> 00:34:51.199 very good at making information warfare and making this point that that we're hypocrites, 416 00:34:51.239 --> 00:34:52.920 that we that we talk about the rule of law, but then we break 417 00:34:53.039 --> 00:34:57.840 laws all the time, that we're that we set, that we're idealistic, 418 00:34:58.119 --> 00:35:01.599 we're naive, and we fall short of what it is that we claim to 419 00:35:01.639 --> 00:35:07.400 be all about. Well, in eighteen fifty five, Abraham Lincoln wrote a 420 00:35:07.480 --> 00:35:12.519 letter to his childhood friend who was a slave owner, and he wrote to 421 00:35:13.599 --> 00:35:19.159 his name was Josh Swift. And in this letter he writes and he says, 422 00:35:19.719 --> 00:35:22.840 we started this nation with the idea that all men are created equal. 423 00:35:22.360 --> 00:35:27.679 We now stand at a place where the know nothings. The basically the Maga 424 00:35:27.760 --> 00:35:32.280 crowd of their day say that all men are created equal, except for Catholics, 425 00:35:32.360 --> 00:35:38.400 Masons. In the parliaance of the Age Negroes Jews, he said, 426 00:35:38.480 --> 00:35:43.960 if the know nothings with that belief ever, actually do direct the course of 427 00:35:44.000 --> 00:35:49.039 this nation, I would rather immigrate to a country like Russia, where they 428 00:35:49.079 --> 00:35:55.599 do not even pretend to seek justice and liberty and just accept despotism as the 429 00:35:55.639 --> 00:36:00.880 way it is. And that's the alternative that Russia gives us law. And 430 00:36:00.679 --> 00:36:07.280 as often as we fall short of our ideals, we at least try. 431 00:36:07.840 --> 00:36:10.760 The Russians, on the other hand, present us with an option, and 432 00:36:10.800 --> 00:36:14.840 I would argue also the Chinese, but that's not my area of expertise. 433 00:36:15.360 --> 00:36:22.320 They offer an alternative, which is give up on trying and and just might 434 00:36:22.440 --> 00:36:23.920 makes right. And I don't want to live in that kind of world. 435 00:36:24.360 --> 00:36:28.639 We may not be perfect, but at least we try to make a place 436 00:36:28.880 --> 00:36:32.079 where everyone has a voice and there's rule of law, and everybody's equal under 437 00:36:32.079 --> 00:36:37.079 that rule of law. And that's a big difference. There's always a wonderful 438 00:36:37.119 --> 00:36:42.559 perspective. We always appreciate it. My very special guest is Phil Edner, 439 00:36:43.639 --> 00:36:47.880 who has been in Ukraine reporting since the very beginning of the conflict. When 440 00:36:47.880 --> 00:36:53.679 he returns, I as an international journalist and as a experienced journalist in the 441 00:36:53.679 --> 00:36:57.719 Middle East, I want to get a little bit more of your perspective of 442 00:36:57.760 --> 00:37:01.679 what's happening there and what may continue to happen and where we may wind up 443 00:37:01.679 --> 00:37:06.559 with that. This is being Frank. We're the only way to be is 444 00:37:06.559 --> 00:37:08.400 Frank. We're taking a brief break. Please don't go in with It's a 445 00:37:08.400 --> 00:37:12.960 great conversation. It's an intelligent one, as we always promise to give you. 446 00:37:13.199 --> 00:37:17.320 We'll be right back on GOLI. This is Hudson River Radio dut Co. 447 00:37:17.400 --> 00:37:22.039 Bring your dash of green into your life. 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Hudson Riverradio dot com. Welcome back to Being Frank, 457 00:38:17.440 --> 00:38:22.239 the Intelligent Conversation podcast. Thanks for sticking with us. I'm your host, 458 00:38:22.320 --> 00:38:27.960 Frank Legono. My very special guest is journalist Phil Edner. You know, 459 00:38:28.000 --> 00:38:30.480 we bring our audience a fresh topic every week, and all our programs 460 00:38:30.519 --> 00:38:35.559 are our archives, so you can listen to any Being Frank anywhere you get 461 00:38:35.960 --> 00:38:40.280 your favorite podcasts at any time you like. You can find our link on 462 00:38:40.280 --> 00:38:46.679 the Hudson River Radio Facebook page or at Hudson Riverradio dot com our website. 463 00:38:47.199 --> 00:38:52.280 Just click to Being franklink to listen to any of our programs anytime that you 464 00:38:52.360 --> 00:38:59.239 want. Please consider becoming a subscriber and sharing us with your family and friends. 465 00:38:59.320 --> 00:39:02.679 Leave us a comment too, I'll surely respond all right. Our conversation 466 00:39:02.880 --> 00:39:13.039 with international journalist the Lintner continues. Phil, as a experienced correspondent covering the 467 00:39:13.079 --> 00:39:19.599 Middle East in your days at CBS, you have again a unique firsthand experience 468 00:39:19.719 --> 00:39:24.800 there to give us your perspective what in your mind is happening there I mean, 469 00:39:24.800 --> 00:39:29.280 it's so complex, there are so many shades of grays, as you 470 00:39:29.400 --> 00:39:32.519 have mentioned. If you can sort through it with your feelings, especially from 471 00:39:32.559 --> 00:39:37.800 someone who's been there, seen it firsthand, what do you see as what's 472 00:39:37.840 --> 00:39:42.159 really going on there? Well, you know, look, the Middle East 473 00:39:42.360 --> 00:39:46.679 is it's a very complex question. It's an area where you really do have 474 00:39:46.760 --> 00:39:57.800 to specialize and kind of you know, concentrate. So I'll just preface whatever 475 00:39:57.840 --> 00:40:02.039 I'm going to say with that is that bertises mostly in the former Soviet Union 476 00:40:02.440 --> 00:40:07.599 sphere. But having said that, you know, I've spent a long time 477 00:40:08.199 --> 00:40:14.119 in the Middle East in a lot of different conflicts, and I've been to 478 00:40:14.719 --> 00:40:17.559 you know, the West Bank, I've been to Israel. I never got 479 00:40:17.599 --> 00:40:24.599 into Gaza, but I've covered that part of the world. And it's the 480 00:40:25.000 --> 00:40:30.800 problem is it is well one of the problems is it's become so entrenched and 481 00:40:30.840 --> 00:40:36.559 people have have you know, have dug their heels in and have sectioned off 482 00:40:36.760 --> 00:40:44.519 their space, uh and have just you know, determined that that's the way, 483 00:40:44.719 --> 00:40:51.920 that's their position. What Hamas has done with this attack, with you 484 00:40:51.920 --> 00:40:55.760 know, this awful attack, the worst attack in Israel's history, arguably certainly 485 00:40:55.880 --> 00:41:02.000 terror wise. They they the UH Again, I don't want to be flippant, 486 00:41:02.400 --> 00:41:07.239 but to make the analogy, they they're the dog that caught the car 487 00:41:07.800 --> 00:41:14.440 and now they don't know that they they overstepped, to say the least, 488 00:41:14.519 --> 00:41:20.360 and they and they Nobody supports AMAS at this point. I don't think nobody 489 00:41:20.360 --> 00:41:24.760 of any consequence the And there's also another issue within the Middle East in that, 490 00:41:25.800 --> 00:41:31.400 much like we saw in the UH Northern Ireland conflict, there are those 491 00:41:31.440 --> 00:41:37.519 who benefit from the conflict. It's in their interest that the conflict continues. 492 00:41:38.119 --> 00:41:45.920 Now with this sea change event of what we are witnessing right now, with 493 00:41:45.039 --> 00:41:52.400 the awful, h deeply disturbing, discussing attack by Hamas and whatever response Israel 494 00:41:52.719 --> 00:41:55.760 makes and Israel's gonna have to make, I mean, Israel's gonna have to 495 00:41:55.800 --> 00:42:00.519 go into Gaza Israel. Israel is going to have to kill a lot of 496 00:42:00.519 --> 00:42:07.559 people, you know, the Hamas leadership which will hide behind and openly says 497 00:42:07.599 --> 00:42:13.679 it will hide behind women and children because that will sway public opinion. This 498 00:42:13.800 --> 00:42:16.280 is going to be this is this is bad, This is really really bad. 499 00:42:16.280 --> 00:42:21.400 But it's a sea change moment. And I think there are those who 500 00:42:21.480 --> 00:42:25.320 have been benefiting from the conflict, who will no longer be able to benefit. 501 00:42:27.199 --> 00:42:30.239 And so that's going to make a big, big, big change, 502 00:42:30.280 --> 00:42:34.519 and maybe it might bring some people to the table, if I might jump 503 00:42:34.559 --> 00:42:37.360 in here too. Though. It's something that struck me as you was speaking 504 00:42:38.239 --> 00:42:45.639 for an organization whose mission is to create chaos. In a sense, they've 505 00:42:45.719 --> 00:42:52.079 kind of fulfilled their mission in some ways. It's the deplorable nature works for 506 00:42:52.159 --> 00:42:58.159 them because elicited that kind of response, a vicious response in return, which 507 00:42:58.199 --> 00:43:00.679 people kind of say, well, why don't you fact, But again it 508 00:43:00.760 --> 00:43:07.199 continues this vicial, vicious cycle of endless violence, because you can kill the 509 00:43:07.280 --> 00:43:12.599 moss, but you can't kill the idea if you will, uh that that's 510 00:43:12.800 --> 00:43:15.519 that drives them behind, which is which is hate, And when people hate 511 00:43:15.519 --> 00:43:20.920 one another, in a sense, we're we're we're we're fulfilling Hamas's goal, 512 00:43:21.000 --> 00:43:25.480 which is the creation of this violent chaos. They don't care, so we're 513 00:43:25.559 --> 00:43:29.800 in a sense, my feeling is in a certain way, we're almost playing 514 00:43:30.199 --> 00:43:34.639 right into their hands, especially with people who really don't seem to care except 515 00:43:34.679 --> 00:43:37.760 for their own ideology. And again, Frank, the one of the biggest 516 00:43:37.800 --> 00:43:43.360 problems in my perspective is that there are people who benefit from that chaos. 517 00:43:43.400 --> 00:43:49.079 They benefit from the war. It's in their interest to continue the war because 518 00:43:49.119 --> 00:43:52.880 they get power, they get money, they get all sorts of benefit. 519 00:43:53.559 --> 00:44:00.440 Again to draw one of the biggest problems in finding peace in the in Northern 520 00:44:00.480 --> 00:44:05.360 Ireland was the fact that you know, the American Irish community was flooding the 521 00:44:05.400 --> 00:44:09.960 place with money and giving money to Shinfein and giving money to the IRA and 522 00:44:10.199 --> 00:44:15.639 just in the same way that that made that made finding a peace solution in 523 00:44:15.719 --> 00:44:21.760 Northern Ireland that much harder, and I would argue, prolonged that conflict far 524 00:44:21.800 --> 00:44:30.039 beyond the actual reason in people's hearts for fighting the sectarian violence in Northern Ireland. 525 00:44:30.440 --> 00:44:35.719 I see the same the exact same thing happening with both Palestinians, Arabs 526 00:44:35.760 --> 00:44:44.000 and Israelis. So you have to disincentifize people who are benefiting from the conflict 527 00:44:45.039 --> 00:44:47.239 before you can really get to a place where we can start to talk about 528 00:44:47.320 --> 00:44:52.559 some kind of peace. Uh, we are not there yet, we are 529 00:44:52.719 --> 00:44:55.400 very far from there. A lot of things are going to have to play 530 00:44:55.400 --> 00:45:00.800 out. Is has bilagoing to get involved? Is is you know how far 531 00:45:00.920 --> 00:45:06.840 is Iran going to get involved. How how much is Russia involved? We 532 00:45:07.000 --> 00:45:12.360 know that we know that Russia and Hamas had a series of meetings in the 533 00:45:12.440 --> 00:45:16.360 run up to these attacks. The leadership of Hamas was invited to Moscow and 534 00:45:16.440 --> 00:45:22.679 sat down with Sergei Lavrov, the the foreigner Foreign Minister of Russia. Obviously 535 00:45:22.760 --> 00:45:27.679 this has taken focus away from Ukraine, which I do not think is uh 536 00:45:28.519 --> 00:45:36.719 is a coincidence we you know, sadly, Frank, I think we're at 537 00:45:36.719 --> 00:45:40.639 a point where autocracy has hit its high water mark and we are starting to 538 00:45:40.679 --> 00:45:47.480 push back. But we are the autocracies around the world and those who would 539 00:45:47.480 --> 00:46:01.320 seek power through violence and despotism and everything that libert democracy aboards. They have 540 00:46:01.400 --> 00:46:05.840 hit their high water mark, but they're not going to go quietly, and 541 00:46:05.880 --> 00:46:10.519 we're going to have to resolve ourselves to fighting against not only the autocracy and 542 00:46:10.599 --> 00:46:16.159 the despotism of people like Hamas and groups like Hamas, but also the Russians 543 00:46:16.159 --> 00:46:21.199 and the Chinese, and the Iranians and you know, you know, even 544 00:46:21.239 --> 00:46:24.760 the Taliban in Afghanistan. These this isn't going to go away quietly. But 545 00:46:24.840 --> 00:46:29.559 I do think they've hit a high water mark. We just have to steal 546 00:46:29.639 --> 00:46:34.079 ourselves and remember what it is we're fighting for and way why it is we're 547 00:46:34.079 --> 00:46:39.599 on this side of the equations. As problematic and as flawed as we are, 548 00:46:40.239 --> 00:46:45.079 it is better than what the alternative is offering. The alternative is offering 549 00:46:45.119 --> 00:46:52.639 governance and a future where might makes right and all there is is autocracy and 550 00:46:52.679 --> 00:46:55.039 despotism. I don't want to live in that world. I want to live 551 00:46:55.079 --> 00:46:59.480 in a world where, as flawed as it is, people have self determination, 552 00:46:59.880 --> 00:47:02.199 have a one man, one vote, people have the rule of law. 553 00:47:02.840 --> 00:47:07.679 It's it binds us together. No, you know, there's the old 554 00:47:07.800 --> 00:47:12.880 saying that no democracy has ever gone to war with another democracy because they're your 555 00:47:12.920 --> 00:47:15.880 answerable to your people. When you're you know, when when there's despotism, 556 00:47:15.920 --> 00:47:20.360 you can go down the course of war with no recourse. I mean, 557 00:47:20.480 --> 00:47:23.360 arguably one of the great flaws of our going to war in Iraq was that 558 00:47:23.920 --> 00:47:28.239 was that our leadership didn't listen to our people, perhaps as much as they 559 00:47:28.280 --> 00:47:32.400 should have. But at the end of the day, I still believe in 560 00:47:32.440 --> 00:47:40.599 America, as awful as I have seen America do some terrible things willfully or 561 00:47:40.679 --> 00:47:46.280 not consciously or not. We make mistakes, We make bad decision. There 562 00:47:46.320 --> 00:47:53.280 are people within our system which do not share the the the values and the 563 00:47:53.320 --> 00:47:59.880 morals that I believe America stands for, and they sometimes make decisions for the 564 00:48:00.119 --> 00:48:02.719 country called America. But at the end of the day, it's still better 565 00:48:02.760 --> 00:48:07.639 than what Hamas or Russia or Iran are offering. I mean, look at 566 00:48:07.639 --> 00:48:13.079 those, look at those those societies. There are there are pockets within all 567 00:48:13.119 --> 00:48:20.440 of those societies where there's there are roots and there are little saplings that are 568 00:48:20.480 --> 00:48:25.039 growing of people who want a system or more akin to ours than the despotism 569 00:48:25.079 --> 00:48:29.519 that you see there. They often get stamped down. You know, Hamas 570 00:48:29.679 --> 00:48:31.599 want to what was it in two thousand and seven, They want to they 571 00:48:31.639 --> 00:48:36.199 want to an election that they've held on ever since. Well, that's not 572 00:48:36.239 --> 00:48:42.079 a system that we I don't incourage that, notwithstanding the horrific acts that we've 573 00:48:42.119 --> 00:48:45.920 seen them do. I don't believe in autocracy. I think it's not a 574 00:48:45.960 --> 00:48:50.800 function. It's not it's not a better way to live. Our system, 575 00:48:51.519 --> 00:48:55.159 as flawed as it is, at least at least gives power to the individual 576 00:48:55.239 --> 00:49:00.159 and gives protection under law. And we have to stay the course and remember 577 00:49:00.519 --> 00:49:05.679 that until we find a better way, that's the best we got, and 578 00:49:06.639 --> 00:49:13.320 what Hamas and Russia and Iran and China and North Korea are offering, it's 579 00:49:13.360 --> 00:49:16.320 not the kind of world I want to live in. So what does what's 580 00:49:16.360 --> 00:49:21.320 the immediate future bring for Phil Ittner? Well, I'm going to be here 581 00:49:21.360 --> 00:49:25.079 in the States taking care of some personal matters. I will continue to hold 582 00:49:25.159 --> 00:49:29.320 some meetings on the West coast here. I'll be here for a little while 583 00:49:29.400 --> 00:49:31.880 longer, but I can't stay away for too long because, you know, 584 00:49:32.199 --> 00:49:37.000 until there's victory in Ukraine, I'm I'm staying there. So I will be 585 00:49:37.039 --> 00:49:44.440 going back to keev In roughly about three weeks. I'll transit through London where 586 00:49:44.480 --> 00:49:49.519 I have friends and affairs that I need to take care of there, and 587 00:49:49.559 --> 00:49:52.880 then I'm going back. And then I'm going back, and I'll be taking 588 00:49:52.880 --> 00:49:59.000 with me some you know, equipment and things for tourniquets and cold weather clothing 589 00:49:59.039 --> 00:50:02.880 for soldiers and whatever support I can bring I'll bring. I'll garry with me. 590 00:50:04.039 --> 00:50:07.280 It's going to be comparatively small, but I'll do what I can. 591 00:50:07.360 --> 00:50:09.639 But more importantly than that, I'm going to stay in contact with the people 592 00:50:09.679 --> 00:50:15.119 that i'm talking with here, and we're going to try and keep Ukraine and 593 00:50:15.199 --> 00:50:20.199 the Ukrainian cause, which is a just cause. I reiterate it is not 594 00:50:20.320 --> 00:50:23.119 a Nazi state, that that is Russian propaganda, it is not. There 595 00:50:23.159 --> 00:50:30.119 is massive corruption, but they know better than to abuse the aid that is 596 00:50:30.159 --> 00:50:36.679 coming from the West, so they are at least when it comes to Western 597 00:50:36.719 --> 00:50:42.400 aid to help themselves defend themselves. That I would argue is going to be 598 00:50:42.840 --> 00:50:46.159 crystal clear from corruption. And as far you know, we send delegations there 599 00:50:46.199 --> 00:50:50.599 all the time. You know, the news speaker talking about like I want 600 00:50:50.639 --> 00:50:53.239 to make sure that you know our aid is not being abused and that there's 601 00:50:53.239 --> 00:50:58.320 transparency. The Ukrainian's answer to that is, come on over, take a 602 00:50:58.360 --> 00:51:01.559 look. We will open up every book, we will show you every warehouse. 603 00:51:01.599 --> 00:51:07.840 We will prove that we are using what you're giving to defend ourselves. 604 00:51:07.639 --> 00:51:12.559 And I'm going to keep pushing that message as well as well as just trying 605 00:51:12.599 --> 00:51:19.440 my very best to keep America from forgetting that there is an incredibly important conflict 606 00:51:19.719 --> 00:51:22.800 aside from what's happening in the Middle East, that will determine the fate of 607 00:51:22.800 --> 00:51:25.599 Europe, and I argue the fate of the globe. But aside from that, 608 00:51:25.679 --> 00:51:29.119 even if that wasn't involved, which it very much is, and we 609 00:51:29.159 --> 00:51:32.719 shouldn't forget about that. That's in integral to this whole thing. The Ukrainians 610 00:51:32.800 --> 00:51:37.599 deserve peace, and they deserve a future, and they deserve a country that 611 00:51:37.920 --> 00:51:44.760 isn't under the iron grip of Moscow, which is what they're fighting against. 612 00:51:44.800 --> 00:51:50.360 And these are our ideals that we as Americans who fought a revolution and fought 613 00:51:50.400 --> 00:51:57.679 against colonization and fought against control from an imperial leader, we should be sympathetic 614 00:51:57.679 --> 00:52:01.559 sympathetic to what the Ukrainians are going through. And I'm gonna go back and 615 00:52:02.039 --> 00:52:06.920 keep that message on the radar as best I can do. You remain optimistic. 616 00:52:07.000 --> 00:52:10.719 I do. We're We're gonna win. We're gonna win. Ukraine is 617 00:52:10.760 --> 00:52:15.679 going to win this war. I argue that they will take back Crimea, 618 00:52:15.800 --> 00:52:19.880 although you know that is a big, big question, but they ultimately, 619 00:52:20.159 --> 00:52:22.280 ultimately, at the end of this war, there will be a place called 620 00:52:22.360 --> 00:52:28.239 Ukraine, and by their sheer survival, that will be victory. And of 621 00:52:28.280 --> 00:52:32.599 that I have absolutely no doubt. And when Ukraine is free and independent and 622 00:52:32.679 --> 00:52:37.320 has a solid border and it's ratified and there are protections for this have ever 623 00:52:37.360 --> 00:52:44.599 happened again, and I believe that there will be victory that includes regaining all 624 00:52:44.639 --> 00:52:51.119 the territory that Ukraine got in the post Soviet era, the ninety one borders. 625 00:52:51.400 --> 00:52:54.800 I firmly believe that that's within our grasp if we decide it's again. 626 00:52:54.960 --> 00:52:59.239 It comes back to the very beginning of our conversation, Frank, when I 627 00:52:59.360 --> 00:53:02.599 told you what messages that I received prior to getting on a plane to come 628 00:53:02.599 --> 00:53:07.519 back to the United States. We have a choice. Victory is a victory 629 00:53:07.639 --> 00:53:14.679 through peace. Through victory and a regain and regaining Ukrainian territory to ninety one 630 00:53:14.719 --> 00:53:22.199 borders is within our sights. We can achieve it. It is possible, 631 00:53:22.679 --> 00:53:29.440 but we could also lose, and losing would mean thrusting Europe into a very 632 00:53:29.519 --> 00:53:34.880 dark period, you know. Emanating from Moscow, we need to finally, 633 00:53:35.000 --> 00:53:39.480 once and for all, decide whether or not we support Ukraine and Ukraine's efforts 634 00:53:39.559 --> 00:53:45.280 for a full and lasting peace through victory. If we make that choice, 635 00:53:45.800 --> 00:53:52.079 I know the Ukrainians have it within them to fight and regain and protect their 636 00:53:52.119 --> 00:53:59.360 own land and build a really wonderful example of liberal democracy in Europe. There 637 00:53:59.400 --> 00:54:02.159 will be a shine example all and we should be part of that. And 638 00:54:02.599 --> 00:54:07.719 it's it is attainable, and if we give them the weapons, they'll do 639 00:54:07.800 --> 00:54:12.679 it. We don't have to get directly involved. Just give them the means 640 00:54:13.159 --> 00:54:15.960 to obtain victory and they can do it and it will be It will be 641 00:54:16.079 --> 00:54:20.280 good for Europe, it will be good for America, it will be good 642 00:54:20.320 --> 00:54:25.679 for the globe. As always, we like to thank Phil Hitner for your 643 00:54:27.280 --> 00:54:32.039 for being Frank with your intelligent conversation. I made that up just now again, 644 00:54:32.119 --> 00:54:36.480 not to be trite, Philo. I so appreciate you taking the time, 645 00:54:36.519 --> 00:54:40.119 and you always take the time, no matter where time zone, and 646 00:54:40.159 --> 00:54:45.119 you always speak so eloquently in your defense of Ukraine. We really appreciate it. 647 00:54:45.199 --> 00:54:49.440 Please be safe and come back again. You're always welcome here. You 648 00:54:49.480 --> 00:54:52.320 know that I'm at your disposal of Frank. That's why I'm That's why I'm 649 00:54:52.320 --> 00:54:54.960 in Ukraine. That's why I'm always happy to talk to you. And please 650 00:54:55.000 --> 00:54:59.519 spread the word, that's all I ask. We sure will. Of course, 651 00:54:59.559 --> 00:55:01.800 we offer special thanks to our listeners who take the time to give us 652 00:55:01.800 --> 00:55:07.159 a voice in their lives. Remember we offer fresh topic every week, and 653 00:55:07.239 --> 00:55:12.519 you catch us you can catch us wherever and whenever you get your favorite podcasts 654 00:55:12.559 --> 00:55:16.719 like Apples, Spotify, iHeartRadio, Speaker and more. You can also check 655 00:55:16.800 --> 00:55:22.039 us out on the Hudson River Radio Facebook page. It's public. Like us, 656 00:55:22.199 --> 00:55:27.280 leave us a comment too. We also ask that you consider sharing Being 657 00:55:27.320 --> 00:55:32.400 Frank with others. You can also go to our website Hudson Riverradio dot com. 658 00:55:32.719 --> 00:55:36.440 Let me leave you, as always with the two last what I call 659 00:55:36.519 --> 00:55:40.400 nuggets. One a slogan and then some music. First from Alfred Hitchcock and 660 00:55:40.400 --> 00:55:45.400 he says, if I won't be myself, who will? Simple and to 661 00:55:45.519 --> 00:55:50.159 the point, very very being Frank, And of course we've got some great 662 00:55:50.280 --> 00:55:54.000 music from the Ruse Brothers. Yes, they are brothers Rockabilly and Steve Ruse 663 00:55:54.360 --> 00:56:00.559 and their band known collectively as the Ruse Brothers. You can catch their music 664 00:56:00.719 --> 00:56:07.400 at Ruz Brothers dot bandcamp dot com and here they are with their latest release, 665 00:56:07.519 --> 00:56:12.280 Nirvana. You can also catch them at the legendary Turning Point in Piermont, 666 00:56:12.360 --> 00:56:17.679 New York on Saturday, November fourth, for our engineer Neil Richter. 667 00:56:17.840 --> 00:56:22.440 Remember I call him the Mailman because he always delivers. I'm your host, 668 00:56:22.519 --> 00:56:25.440 Frank Lebuono, and we hope to have you join us for the next being, 669 00:56:25.480 --> 00:57:01.719 Frank, where the only way to be is Frank, take care me 670 00:57:01.960 --> 00:57:51.119 up the sky be up to ray you you way day long? Something to 671 00:57:51.360 --> 00:58:16.119 hide a ball up stand let sad thing. It's all your soul. It's 672 00:58:16.199 --> 00:59:22.519 not bad, No, not in the Cha's coming down from the sky gone 673 00:59:22.559 --> 01:00:34.239 if you can sure staying so. They got Hudson River Radio dot com. Ye