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Hi, I was listening to your
first hour, and I'm not too sure

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if we have a debate here.
I'm a libertarian. I live in New

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Hampshire. I'm forty two years in
the libertarian movement, and I'm part of

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the free state movement, which is
moving libertarians to a particular state to basically

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gather together, create a liberty society
and get away from people who aren't particularly

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interested in libertarianism. Yeah, you
could think of it as a migration of

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Catholics to create a Catholic state,
or a migration of Jews to create a

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Jewish state. Now, I think
my main issues in terms of libertarianism is

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that it's kind of premised on a
lot of Enlightenment values. And although I

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would agree with some of the ideas
in libertarianism, I'm just not sure how

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or why I should believe in classical
liberalism. So would you say, for

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example, that you believe in utilitarian
ethics as a libertarian? No, no,

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No, I'm primarily an ethesis.
So I believe that libertarianism is actually

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rests on a very simple concept that
one owns one's own body fully and exclusively,

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and from there all of libertarianism springs
forth the non aggression principle. If

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you own something, you can protect
it, and you may not take someone

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else's body. So from there we
get the right of association, which is

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moving my body in concert with someone
else who consents. We get the right

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of speech, using my body to
exercise its vocal cords. We get the

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right to labor, which is using
my body and movement to produce things.

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Libertarianism is actually a very very thin
ethic. It doesn't say what one ought

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to do in order to be a
good man, that we rely on other

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religions and philosophies to do. Okay, What it says is that is that

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here's a minimum standard under which if
you fall, you are doing evil,

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and that is violating someone else's self
ownership. I'm glad that you brought this

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up. By the way, I
was an anarchico libertarian train by some of

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the very best, and I abandoned
that. But I'm glad you brought up

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the point that it's premised on self
ownership. Now, as orthodox we would

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deny that you don't own yourself.
And so as you've explicated all the what's

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known as the rights, that the
negative rights that you discussed there are premised

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on all that. So how do
you typically receive or respond to somebody who

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says you don't own yourself? And
we reject that first innst of all,

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Well, Mike, guess is that
you believe that you are a steward of

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God's ownership. Is that is that
accurate? Sure? Yes? Right?

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So has God seated that stewardship to
another prison another human? No? I

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mean, and in a loose sense
we can we can talk about right.

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I prefer to stay away from rights
language. But obviously Orthodox Christians aren't going

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to say that you can enslave a
person right exactly or something like that.

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However, it's usually cashed out more
in terms of duties. I'm gonna virtue

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ethics rather than ownership, because part
of the problem is this, this is

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kind of an absolute that like you
own yourself, and therefore freedom becomes the

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highest principle. Although Worthodox Christians value
freedom, it's not an absolute. There's

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higher things. So that means in
certain situations I have no problem violating then

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app like I don't actually you know, if it violates higher higher principles,

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I really, you know, we
don't care if that violates somebody's will.

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Now, that's I don't think that
you can put that into its slavery.

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It just means freedom's not an absolute. So under what conditions would you say

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that a man uh may be enslaved
by you? For example? What?

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How, how how might that happen? Well, I rejected enslavement, but

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for example, I have no problems
if, for example, somebody's moral choices

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if the state, you know,
if they were so detrimental the states stepped

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in and says we're not going to
allow you to do this, and we

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don't care about your your freedom.
Not because there's certain there are certain things

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the preservation of a Christian ethos on
a societal structure uh that's healthy and promotes

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virtue, that would override somebody's freedom. So in that case it would be

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yeah, if it's deemed to violate
higher principles, I have a question for

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you after that. Go ahead,
yeah, and then and that makes that

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makes good sense. So what you're
saying is that there is a group of

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people who basically can decide what your
body may do and what it may not

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do. Is that is that accurate? Well, I mean I have a

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question because you I think you're missing
that. You just posited the very thing

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that you're saying nobody has the right
to do, which is to tell people

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what is the correct metaphysical stance of
their body. So you said, for

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example, that you have to follow
the NAP, which is you own yourself

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and to not harm others, And
then you said a few sentences later that,

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but there's also no aughts. Well, why I followed the NAP if

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there's no AUGHTSU are you? Are
you speaking to me? Yeah? Oh,

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I'm sorry? And I said that
there is no oughts? Yeah,

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no, I I thought, I
asked you. You said that if a

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group of people deemed actions no In
your opening statement you said I don't hold

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that there's aughts like we ought to
do this or that, where you said

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that libertarianism doesn't hold that, Yeah, and then you subscribe to that.

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Do you have to look to ethics
and philosophy to decide that? Yeah?

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So I follow Then why I followed
the NAP? Right? So I was

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saying, I don't know, I
don't know exactly what the ought king,

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Uh, but let me restate it. The self ownership libertarianism, which is

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really just a minimal ethic. It's
not it's not the highest ethic. It's

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the minimal ethic. It is the
ethic below which you cannot go unless you

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uh, going beneath it? You
are evil? Okay, why I I'm

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sorry? Why ought I follow the
NAP because of self ownership? Because of

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self respective? Because of respective self
ownership? Don't believe that? Well,

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but that's just that's not telling me
why I ought to follow. That's stating

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what you believe. I'm saying why
ought I believe the NAP? Well do

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you are? Are you granting self
ownership and not accepting n A P Are

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you saying that you you do not
have self ownership? That God has ownership?

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And no, I'm asking even more
fundamental at you said you're an ethicist.

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So in terms of ethics, Uh, what's the normativity for the NAP?

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On what basis? Ought I follow
it? Yes, self ownership,

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Self ownership is our fund That's that
doesn't answer the question of ought. Stating

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what your position is doesn't tell me
why I ought to do it. Well,

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you use your body in order to
deny self ownership. Okay, but

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that's a statement of what is the
case or what happens. That doesn't tell

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me why it ought to be.
Some way or not Somewhere I am stating

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I don't know that I've stated in
ought. No, I'm asking you why

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I ought to follow the NAP.
I see, I see you. If

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you do not follow the NAP,
you're violating self ownership. You're saying that

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we don't believe that that right?
Right, I understand that. I understand

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that. So you're denying self ownership, which is fundamental to libertarianism. Now

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we could talk about the fund the
reason why we believe in self ownership.

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Some people think it's axiomatic. I
don't believe it's axiomatic. I believe you

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have to actually use your own body
as owner of it to deny it itself.

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So it's a performative contradiction to actually
deny self ownership. You are using

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your body as and saying I don't
own my body. And if you're you

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know, who is this person who
is using this body to deny that that

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they may use it? Okay,
but none of that tells me any ought

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or any basis to believe in an
ought in regard to the NAP, Well,

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we would have to first establish self
ownership, and if you're so,

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my question. But even if he's
established that that is the case. That

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doesn't tell me that I ought to
abide by the NAP. Maybe I believe

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that I own myself and that I
should set up a dictatorship at the queisats

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Hatarak, and I'm the god emperor
and I'm going to take your wives and

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set up a hero. So why
ought I not do that? So you

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don't believe so in that case,
one would not believe that one each person

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owns oneself. One would believe that
you own yourself and you own other humans.

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No, what I'm saying is that
there's no basis to believe, right,

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So there's not a basis for ethics, is the point I'm just trying

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to get clear. Are you saying
that that that you would believe that you

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own yourself and you own other human
deeds? I'm saying that even if I,

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even if I accept your first principle
that there's self ownership, nothing about

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self ownership tells me that I should
accept the non aggression prim I see.

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So if you if you believe in
let's say, let's let's go ahead and

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grant that there is self ownership,
and now if you violate someone else's self

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ownership, you're saying that that's not, that's not that's not a terrible thing

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to do. Yeah, on what
basis is a terrible or wrong? So

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if you murder someone, you rape
them, you're just utilizing their body for

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your own self. You aren't you
denying their self ownership? Then why don't

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Why am I back? If I
can believe in my self ownership, why

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do I have to respect anyone else's
I mean, if you want to talk

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about natural rights. For example,
when I look out in nature, I

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don't see the animal kingdom caring about
uh, the rights of other prey that

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the predators prey upon. Mm hmm. Right, well we would say that

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they're not self owners Well, I'm
just saying, I'm saying that if I

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want to base rights in nature,
if you believe in natural rights, maybe

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you don't. I would. I
don't believing rights based on self ownership.

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Okay, but so the but self
ownership doesn't tell me that I am bound

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to in an ethical way believe in
other people's self ownership or respect their self

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ownership? Right, right, right, right, And that's where we were

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just a little while ago. What
you were saying, I own myself,

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but no one else owns them,
I may abuse their bodies as I choose.

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What I'm saying is that you need
a basis for that ethic extending beyond

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the individual. Why is this a
universal principle that everybody should follow the NAP.

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So what Jay's saying is, even
if one granted and we didn't,

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we don't, but you own yourself, there's no moral that follows that I

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can't steal the person or enslave them
or do something. Well, this is

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like going from uh, it's like
the naturalistic fallacy is basically saying all you

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is you own yourself, and now
you're moving to an ethics, then you

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ought not to enslave or do these
things to other people. Well, that

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doesn't fall That's all Jay's point is, Well, I'm arguing that you're you're

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denying self ownership by taking the by
owning another human. You're saying, well,

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I own myself, and you know, how do you know? Why

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does it? But not just assuming
that it extends universally? Why should I

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assume that? Well, because how
do you own yourself? That's just restating

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the position. How do you justify
that it extends out beyond me? I

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know you're saying you think it does, But on what basis why should I

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think that? Well, you have
no basis then for your own self ownership.

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No, I can affirm my own
self ownership and just simply not extend

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that to anyone else. And why
am I wrong in doing that? Well,

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because they have self ownership, Because
on what basis You're just reasserting the

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position. I want to know.
On what basis is that extended beyond me?

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You're denying if if if you have
no basis to know that you are

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a self owner. If you're saying
that I am a unique human being and

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only I have self ownership and everyone
else I own, there is no there's

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no you have to assert self ownership. You have to say, well,

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not I own myself because I control
my body. I think of this as

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my body. And why am I
bound to respect other people's self ownership?

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Well, because you would be disrespecting
there's self ownership exactly, So what's wrong

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with that? So you can't we
are saying so libertarian is a saying that

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disrespecting self ownership is evil? That
is where evil? Oh no, it's

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exactly. So now we're in the
domain of value judgments. What's your basis

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for value judgments ownership. Yeah,
and we've already been in about twenty times

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through why that doesn't work as a
justification Because you're saying that you could just

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go ahead and say I own I
own myself. I'm saying you're making a

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move that's not justified to extend that
out beyond the individual to everybody universally.

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How do you have a basis for
any universal ethical moral claims on what basis

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is that universalized? Maybe it is, but what's the basis? Well,

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I don't think that you can apply
it to yourself unless it is universal.

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Well, that doesn't tell you that
it is universal. That's just saying that

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you think it is. How do
I know that? Well, that doesn't

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even follow either. I mean,
think about the problem of other minds.

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You can affirm your own mind,
it doesn't. Yeah, it doesn't logically

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follow our other minds because you affirm
your own mind, assuming that work even

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self evident. Yeah, I mean
we start with self ownership, and perhaps

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your argument that it's just axiomatic.
I mean, if you if this is

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actually one of the I don't believe
in axioms, I'm organing is not accient

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on it. This is actually one
of the reasons why we are separating,

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right, This is I'm part of
a libertarian separatist movement. We believe that

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there are most people are authoritarian.
Most people do believe that they own other

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human beings, that they may make
rules to how other people may live their

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lives and choose to choose their things. And I agree with you that that's

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wrong. Don't since we don't believe
that we actually are choosing to separate ourselves.

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I agree that that's wrong, that
tyranny is wrong, but I have

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a basis for why it's wrong,
and the arguments that I'm hearing from you

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don't tell me why it's wrong.
Basically, all that amounts to is that

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you don't like it. No,
it denies my self ownership. Yeah,

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but there's no reason why it's wrong
to do that. You haven't given any

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reason yet that I am. There's
no reason why I should not be as

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slave, is what you're saying.
You haven't given a reason why it's wrong

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to violate the NAP That isn't circular
or self referencing or a reassertion of the

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thinking question. Okay, so you're
saying that I have no I have no

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basis if I believe that I own
myself that I have not that belief can

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be overridden by someone else, and
I have no reason to say that it

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is an evil to enslave me.
Correct. There's not a basis for objective

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moral claims in your position that I've
heard, And to me, that would

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mean that the classical liberal underpinnings of
libertarianism is where the mistake the error is.

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So that was the thing I said
at the very beginning, is that

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I don't know why we would accept
classical liberalism. Yeah. Yeah, I

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mean, if if this were absolutely
clear and other and everyone believed this,

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we would all be libertarian. Libertarianism
is a very very very small belief,

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very very tiny, and that's the
reason why why I believe that we need

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to separate. Because most people subscribe
to the belief that they may they may

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violate someone else's self ownership. We
consider that to be a great evil,

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right, And I agree with you, But I have a basis as to

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why that's evil. I have an
objective ethic, but in your position,

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it sounds like what it just is. It's just that way. I'd be

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curious if you don't mind. I'm
sure that you've said this and if it's

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if it's too redundant to repeat,
I would love to hear Europe Well,

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I think this is why you need
something again to theism to justify the ethics.

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It's not going to be it's not
going to be justified without some kind

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of theism. But look, hey, I appreciate those objections. I'm gonna

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help let let Andrew if you can't
put Andrew on. And he uh,

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he's always has a lot of good
stuff to say about libertarianism. Do you

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see about how that worked. I
just overrode Jay Dyer's prey will and I

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violated his nap and I told him
what to do violation of Thanks for thanks

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for bringing me into this space.
I appreciate it. I was, I

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was listening. I wonder if I
could uh speak to this a little bit

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with you guys. Yeah, so
this morning I ate sausage, and I

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ate bacon, and I ate lamb
and I had eggs. That was multiple

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different animals which I participated in violating
their self autonomy. Why don't why don't

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they own themselves? How come I
own them can walk out and eat their

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face whenever I feel like it.
So yeah, I'm really just trying to

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get to uh self ownership of human
beings. Yeah, yeah, I'm trying

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to get I'm trying to extend the
principle. I'm asking you why I can

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take a monkey and I can saw
it's head off and a crack its skull

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open and eat its brains and that's
okay. How come that's not wrong?

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Then I violate his self ownership.
We don't really believe that animals have self

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ownership. I mean I actually that's
not that's not one hundred percent true.

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There is there are vegan libertarians.
Oh yeah, I mean natural law.

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Wait wait, wait, wait a
say wait a second. I'm so confused.

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You don't think that animals own themselves? Does that mean that I can

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say one? I don't know what
ESA is. Can I's actually assault an

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animal? Oh? I could you? Yes? You can? Of course,

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there anything Why is there anything wrong
with that? I mean, after

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all, I only own myself.
The animal doesn't own itself. I own

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the animal, right, that's right. That's right. So you can go

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out and ground and pound dogs in
your world view or what? So?

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That is where so libertarianism is only
is only a basic minimum ethic of how

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we ought to treat other human beings. Now, on top of that,

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you can have all different types of
religions, believe in all different types of

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gods who give you whatever beliefs or
whatever you have. Yeah, this is

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a really cool story, dude,
this is a cool story. I like

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the story. It's neat. Can
can use a person owns yourself and owns

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a dog, go ground it,
pound the dog or not? Can you

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physically do that? Yes? You
can? Yeah, but but if it's

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not violating the law of self ownership, and why shouldn't you be able to

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go ground and pound the dog?
Bro? And there are cultures that that

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actually believe that. Yeah, just
be great. Wait, so I just

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wonder. I mean there's libertarians that
defend these things too. So in your

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worldview, in your worldview, you
think it's okay to go out and have

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sex with a goat because you own
the goat, Bro, Well, why

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is that not okay then? Well, because libertarianism isn't a full belief in

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a full philosophy of life. Libertarianism
is only that minimum. What sort of

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word garbage is this? What word
salad is this? What do you mean?

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It's not a full philosophy of life? It's been asking you specifically,

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if a man has look goat,
Libertarianism can't tell you that that's evil.

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Yeah, it can't even tell you
that that's evil. So would I do

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that? No? But yeah,
I'm asking if you would do it.

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I'm asking why a person who owns
a goat, who owns themselves, but

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the goat can't own itself because you
own the goat, Why can't they go

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out and do that to the goat? What could you possibly appeal to as

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a reason why they ought not do
that? I can appeal to a religion

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under liberty under libertarianism. Libertarian doesn't
cover that. That is not so it's

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not a very useful philosophy, and
libertarianism is not a full philosophy of life.

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What it is It says that you
may not do these things. You

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may not murder, you may not
thieve, you may not reap. So

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is it a religion because it so
hold on, So it sounds like a

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religion because it's sort of now you're
at the all up, but now you're

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at the point of just sort of
saying it has these dictates and that's what

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it is. Well, why should
I believe those dictates? That's been the

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question here. Yeah, and and
many people don't. That is why we

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are. Okay, So there's not
a reason to believe libertarians. Okay,

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Well, I believe there is.
I believe that one owns oneself and that

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each person. I believe that's a
universal ethic, and I believe that each

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person does. I believe that if
you're if you actually start enslaving people who

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are right. So you've restated right, and I'm not trying to be mean

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too. You've restated the position many
times that you said it's universal, and

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I want to know why or how
you think that's universal on what ground?

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It seems like that Jay has pointed
out that you're simply stating psychological preferences and

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your belief system and then claiming,
but this is just what I believe,

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and I believe it's universal. But
you haven't given any adjustification, why,

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anyone, why it's anything beyond simply
your subjective kind of mental state that you're

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having. I think that's what it
is getting. Yeah, exactly. Yeah,

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Well I don't I'm not too sure
I can convince you of it.

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Uh, And I believe you know
it's it's you know, you can go

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just to say that I have that
belief and I believe it very strongly.

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The reason I wouldn't as a a
goat is not because of libertarianism, but

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because I have these other beliefs that
are on top of libertarianism. But but

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those other beliefs can do not allow
me to break that fundamental belief of respect

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for each person's self ownership, that
I will not turn another person. Okay,

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and I'm not trying to be mean
to your dentist, but we've heard

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you state your position many many times, but we're asking very specific questions about

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the justification for the position. So
we're going to move on. I appreciate

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that. Now you can stay as
long as you want. You can stay

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of them. I don't care.
You can to do J I said,

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I'm leaving. What part? What
part of I'm leaving? Am? I

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am? I overwriting your naps?
You're my self ownership? I'm not your

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slaves. M C. Wallace?
What's up? Hey? What's up?

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00:26:07.079 --> 00:26:10.200
How are you doing? Man?
Good? What's on your mind? So?

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I want to speak about the Bible. What do you think? Can

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I? Can I make a request? Can there's there's a there's Abraham listening?

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Uh, we both kind of want
to make the argument and then you

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can bring up, if you want, anyone else with it too. The

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00:26:25.079 --> 00:26:30.279
guy you talk about, the guy
that name is Ibrahim Abraham Charles. I

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see, let's see I see Ibrahim, yeah Abraham? Yeah? Okay,

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so you want him to come on
with you? Is everything? Yeah?

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Yeah, you don't mind? Sure? And what do you all want to

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00:26:42.799 --> 00:26:49.880
talk about? Uh? The topic
is the the Bible and the contradictions in

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the Bible. And what's your position? What I am you there? What's

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00:26:56.960 --> 00:27:03.519
your position? So? We is
the is? The is the Bible divine?

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00:27:03.359 --> 00:27:07.200
What's your position? I'm a Muslim? Okay? So you want to

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debate is? No? No?
No, I want to debate the Bible?

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Okay, Well I want to debate
the Quran? Can we do that

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too? We can do whatever you
want. It doesn't matter. So,

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uh, are you ready for it? Do you want me to? You

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00:27:22.599 --> 00:27:25.720
know, I'm waiting for you to
give you the heads up? Well,

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00:27:26.160 --> 00:27:27.720
what do you want to talk?
What specifically are the topics you want to

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talk about? So? If you
would believe that the Bible is divine?

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Correct? Do you believe the Koran
is divine? Absolutely? Absolutely? Do

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you believe that revelation has to be
consistent with what came before? No?

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No, no, So my point
here is the argument? What is it?

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Yeah? I think we're on is
we say it again? I said,

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do you believe that new revelation I
e. The Koran has to be

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consistent with what came before? New
revelation? I mean, the Putan is

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one. So okay, does the
Quran say that the revelation came to the

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Jews and the Christians? Yes?
Okay, so is that the revelation that

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came before? Huh? Does?
Does the Quran have to be consistent with

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what came before? But real quick, you're jumping to the pudd on,

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00:28:25.279 --> 00:28:27.039
right, And I said, I'm
not gonna write, but I'm not going

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to accept any I'm not gonna sorry, right, So the art the point

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00:28:30.240 --> 00:28:34.119
and the reason I'm asking that is
because I'm not going to accept any new

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00:28:34.240 --> 00:28:38.839
revelations. And your Koran claims to
be a new revelation unless it's consistent with

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what came before, because what came
before tells me not to accept anything unless

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it's consistent with what came before.
So do you understand that? The point?

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I want to your Bible? Right? But but your but your but

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your Koran is your Koran is late. So again, let's not even debate

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00:28:59.279 --> 00:29:06.119
the exactly that's why you don't want
to debate the Koran exactly right? No,

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00:29:07.880 --> 00:29:11.839
because those the Qurans. Does the
Quran say that I'm supposed to go

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00:29:12.039 --> 00:29:18.240
and check what the Quran says against
the prior revelation. No, it's a

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confirmation. We don't believe that those
Oh wait, it's a confirmation. How

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00:29:21.480 --> 00:29:25.079
can I confirm it if I'm not
supposed to go check it to previous revelation.

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I can prove that if we discussed
the Bible. All right, So

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00:29:29.160 --> 00:29:30.440
you won't talk about the Koran because
none of you can answer. Have you

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00:29:30.480 --> 00:29:36.119
seen the debate with Daniel kick get
you? How did he destroy me?

353
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When when he when you can't answer
the same thing that he couldn't answer.

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00:29:41.039 --> 00:29:45.319
No, it's not a deflection because
the revelation that came before, the revelation

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that came before tells me not to
accept your revelation. So if i'm if

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00:29:52.440 --> 00:29:56.839
I'm a seventh centur No, let's
pretend we're all seventh century Jews, Arabs,

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Muslims, Christians and we're hearing right
the Quran being recited. How am

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00:30:03.839 --> 00:30:07.359
I supposed to go and confirm it? If I'm confirming against the older prior

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00:30:07.440 --> 00:30:12.440
revelation. Well, God actually tells
you to confirm it right exactly, So

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you understand that's it. That's an
admission of my position. That's why I'm

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making this claim to you. How
do I confirm it? What do I

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00:30:18.720 --> 00:30:25.880
confirm it with? What do I
confirm it with? What do I confirm

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00:30:25.960 --> 00:30:30.359
it with? God tells you,
He tests you. He asked mankind to

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00:30:30.519 --> 00:30:36.839
confirm it against what? What do
I go to? Linguistic the literature of

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00:30:36.960 --> 00:30:44.000
what? Of what? The literature
of what? Of what? The Koran

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00:30:44.119 --> 00:30:47.240
tells me? To confirm it with
the literature of the Koran. That's so

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stupid, you know what I'm asking
your Bring me a verse, just one

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00:30:51.880 --> 00:30:55.960
verse. I just asked you.
See this is why these people can't answer

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00:30:56.000 --> 00:30:59.799
these questions. You see how quick
they collapse. You just collapse with one

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00:31:00.000 --> 00:31:03.359
simple question, what do I What
do I check it against? You said,

371
00:31:03.400 --> 00:31:08.960
the grammar of what, the linguistics
of what? You just bring me

372
00:31:10.119 --> 00:31:15.640
one verse of what? You can't
answer this, Bring me one verse and

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00:31:15.920 --> 00:31:21.799
try to try to try to create
one verse from the you can't one verse,

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00:31:22.039 --> 00:31:26.640
not a chapter, not ten chapters, one verse. I've got it

375
00:31:26.759 --> 00:31:30.160
right here. I've got it right
here with your dumb dollar script. It

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00:31:30.240 --> 00:31:34.480
doesn't work. It doesn't work because
so you just you just fumbled up on

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00:31:34.519 --> 00:31:41.160
a basic question. It says it
says he sent down the book upon them

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00:31:41.200 --> 00:31:44.160
in truth, confirming what was before, he sent down the Torah on the

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Gospel. Correct. Oh, exactly, Silence, I just cited the text.

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00:31:56.880 --> 00:31:59.039
You said, give me one verse
from the Koran. I just did,

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00:32:02.960 --> 00:32:07.079
see silence. I just gave you
the verse, dummy. I just

382
00:32:07.160 --> 00:32:12.640
gave it to you. Can you
hear me? I just gave it to

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00:32:12.759 --> 00:32:16.319
you. He sent down the book, He sent down the book upon the

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00:32:16.359 --> 00:32:22.759
in truth, confirming what was before
he sent the Torah and the Gospel exactly.

385
00:32:22.839 --> 00:32:24.720
And this is exactly why I'm proving
my point on why I want to

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00:32:24.759 --> 00:32:29.799
debate the Bible. So I just
gave you the thing you asked for,

387
00:32:30.000 --> 00:32:31.680
and you're restating the original thing.
So you can't prove this, can you?

388
00:32:35.599 --> 00:32:38.319
Your Koran is a corrupted mismatch of
the Bible. It's a copy and

389
00:32:38.359 --> 00:32:42.839
paste job. I gave you the
thing. How do I how do I

390
00:32:43.519 --> 00:32:46.200
how do I How do I I'm
not running. You just got you just

391
00:32:46.279 --> 00:32:50.759
got body. How do I check
that the Koran is correct? How do

392
00:32:50.880 --> 00:32:53.000
I check that the Koran is correct? How do I check that it's correct?

393
00:32:55.279 --> 00:32:58.640
Contradiction? I just read you the
verse you asked for, and now

394
00:32:58.680 --> 00:33:00.720
you won't talk about it. Well, that's not even the verse I was

395
00:33:00.799 --> 00:33:06.240
referring to. You said you asked
me for any verse? You know?

396
00:33:06.519 --> 00:33:09.079
I told you. God tells you
God? How do I check the Koran

397
00:33:09.279 --> 00:33:12.960
challenges? How do I check it? How do I check it? I'm

398
00:33:12.960 --> 00:33:15.480
trying to tell you. Let me
explain to you. So God and the

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00:33:15.240 --> 00:33:22.119
challenge is mankind to put on?
Is perfect? I just read three three

400
00:33:22.200 --> 00:33:24.880
for you. I read three three
for you? Three three here? Okay,

401
00:33:25.119 --> 00:33:30.480
read it again for the fourth time. How do I check it again?

402
00:33:30.920 --> 00:33:34.480
How do I check on booting?
If you don't answer, I'm gonna

403
00:33:34.480 --> 00:33:38.759
boot you. The way you checked, the way you prove is from God.

404
00:33:40.279 --> 00:33:44.759
And God explains this to you.
He tells you bring me one verse

405
00:33:45.359 --> 00:33:50.680
like any verses in Does it not
say what I just read that you go

406
00:33:50.799 --> 00:33:53.640
and check it to the prior revelation? Does it not say that you're still

407
00:33:53.680 --> 00:33:58.319
miss why are you from it?
So you notice? So he just got

408
00:33:58.400 --> 00:34:02.279
busted. We just got busted.
Do you want to defend your idiot friend

409
00:34:02.319 --> 00:34:09.920
there? Do you want to answer
this? But Aim? Do you want

410
00:34:09.960 --> 00:34:15.079
to answer it? Oh you didn't. You didn't say my name piece people,

411
00:34:15.840 --> 00:34:21.760
I didn't come in in for that
type of heat discussion. Uh huh,

412
00:34:21.960 --> 00:34:24.920
sure exactly. Yeah, I'm sure
you did it. MC. What's

413
00:34:25.000 --> 00:34:46.679
up? You gotta u mute MC
un mute. I don't even see MC

414
00:34:46.880 --> 00:34:50.760
anymore. Did you bring him in? Yeah, you're sitting right there at

415
00:34:50.800 --> 00:35:12.000
the top, mc wallace. Go
ahead, all right, Corey doo,

416
00:35:12.719 --> 00:35:15.199
what's going on? Guys? All
right, so let's look at what's up

417
00:35:15.239 --> 00:35:22.000
dude. Right here, he has
revealed it to you, the book in

418
00:35:22.119 --> 00:35:25.239
truth, confirming what came before,
as he revealed the Torah and the Gospel.

419
00:35:25.679 --> 00:35:29.719
So according to the Qoran, I
can go to the Torah and the

420
00:35:29.800 --> 00:35:34.159
Gospel to see that the same things
taught in the Koran were revealed beforehand.

421
00:35:34.840 --> 00:35:37.880
And you understand, this idiot just
completely collapsed and wouldn't answer any of these

422
00:35:37.920 --> 00:35:43.880
basic questions. He even said in
the discussion that it's supposed to be checked

423
00:35:43.880 --> 00:35:47.360
against the prior revelation and then completely
collapsed as soon as we went into a

424
00:35:47.519 --> 00:35:52.599
little bit of depth. Go ahead, man, what's up? Go I

425
00:35:52.719 --> 00:35:59.280
think I can see the future,
and I think what they're going to do

426
00:35:59.679 --> 00:36:07.159
is there a flood all the coastal
cities. Bro Okay, that was really

427
00:36:07.239 --> 00:36:21.639
funny. Corvid, what's up now? Speaker? That was weird. Who's

428
00:36:21.679 --> 00:36:25.679
the fats? Oh? My only
point is that y'all are debating a bunch

429
00:36:25.719 --> 00:36:30.320
of books that were written by men. Mm hmm. How many cigarettes do

430
00:36:30.360 --> 00:36:38.960
you smoke a day? The name
is Andrew Okay, So the thing is

431
00:36:39.199 --> 00:36:45.400
that you're debating story versus story.
It's really it's really deep, dude.

432
00:36:45.880 --> 00:36:55.719
You got his man, JP,
it's not atheist night, as I said

433
00:36:55.840 --> 00:37:07.519
multiple times, h go ahead,
man, JP, what's up? I'm

434
00:37:07.559 --> 00:37:22.119
mute, man Jacob, Hey,
what's up? How you doing? Are

435
00:37:22.159 --> 00:37:30.239
you there? Uh? You have
to come back out and come back in.

436
00:37:30.400 --> 00:37:45.320
We lost your dude. I can't
hearry you. Terry Yack, are

437
00:37:45.360 --> 00:37:58.199
you there? Gonna? I mute? Man on? Mute, Terry Yack?

438
00:37:58.280 --> 00:38:06.480
Do you want to talk? Get
on mute. I don't understand why

439
00:38:06.519 --> 00:38:07.440
these people wait all this time to
get on here and they don't want to

440
00:38:07.480 --> 00:38:12.159
talk. Oh shot, Sorry,
sorry about the I just want to say

441
00:38:12.159 --> 00:38:14.960
that every song book was written by
a man, and atheism is retarded.

442
00:38:15.840 --> 00:38:25.239
Every every book is written by a
man. That's actually correct. So it's

443
00:38:25.320 --> 00:38:35.880
open discussion. And then we'll go
to sea tonight. It's Muslims, Evangelicals,

444
00:38:35.960 --> 00:38:45.960
Protestants, Arians chose witnesses, Mormons. I thought these Roman Catholics were

445
00:38:46.079 --> 00:38:52.159
so called scholars and they were the
intellectuals, and that scholasticism like in the

446
00:38:52.199 --> 00:38:55.159
West and everything. But they don't
even know basic terminology of the East.

447
00:38:57.480 --> 00:39:02.400
And that's also odd given the fact
that Trent supposedly attended the Eastern Riot for

448
00:39:02.519 --> 00:39:07.880
so long and he doesn't know triad
is like common the Byzantine terminology. This

449
00:39:07.960 --> 00:39:14.599
is bizarre. Yeah. I also
wanted to say about the Quran. Muhammad

450
00:39:15.360 --> 00:39:17.880
had a torah brought to him and
he confirmed the Torah, and he was

451
00:39:17.880 --> 00:39:22.760
supposedly illiterate, so he didn't even
read the book, but he confirmed it.

452
00:39:22.159 --> 00:39:24.360
And so when you asked them,
okay, he confirmed a book that

453
00:39:24.440 --> 00:39:29.159
he didn't even read. When did
when did this corruption happen? Because he

454
00:39:29.199 --> 00:39:32.159
confirmed that in his lifetime. So
we have the bed Sea scrolls. You

455
00:39:32.239 --> 00:39:37.559
know today we it's the same.
It matches up. So I just think

456
00:39:37.599 --> 00:39:42.039
the wholemislim position is stupid. Roman
Catholicism is definitely a could and so is

457
00:39:43.079 --> 00:39:47.159
absolutely yeah and uh. It's also
later in the same uh sora, it's

458
00:39:47.239 --> 00:39:51.920
it's in three as well. It
goes on to say Ala will teach him

459
00:39:51.920 --> 00:39:58.719
wisdom, the Torah and the Gospel. Yeah, he will be Yeah.

460
00:39:58.800 --> 00:40:06.719
So so the ass omption is in
the in the Quran that the revelation.

461
00:40:07.280 --> 00:40:10.239
Sorry, I didn't mean to boot
Colin. Colin, pop back in here.

462
00:40:10.280 --> 00:40:17.599
I didn't mean to boot you accidentally
accidentally remove the wrong person. The

463
00:40:17.639 --> 00:40:23.559
assumption is that the only way that
you could test the revelation to supposed revelation

464
00:40:23.760 --> 00:40:30.280
to Mohammad is the prior revelation,
obviously, and the Koran even tells you

465
00:40:30.400 --> 00:40:35.639
that. It says that I'm the
same deity that talked to Moses, that

466
00:40:35.800 --> 00:40:39.559
talked to the prophets, that talked
the the jeel Okay, which is not

467
00:40:39.639 --> 00:40:57.519
a book. JP Barbosa, Hey, what's up. So I've been talking

468
00:40:57.519 --> 00:41:00.239
to a few friends of mine.
I may inquiry going to a Orthodox parish

469
00:41:00.400 --> 00:41:06.239
in town, and I thought it
was super interesting when you were making the

470
00:41:06.280 --> 00:41:14.840
connection between the worship of the synagogue
and the temple and the continuation with like

471
00:41:15.039 --> 00:41:20.920
modern estern Orthodox worship for a while
there, I mean, I saw that

472
00:41:21.039 --> 00:41:27.400
Protestantism had a bunch of problems with
continuity and that things wouldn't match up.

473
00:41:28.199 --> 00:41:30.800
So, if anything, I was
I started going down the path of like

474
00:41:30.679 --> 00:41:35.559
Hebrew roots and all that type of
stuff, and then thankfully I walked away

475
00:41:35.599 --> 00:41:42.559
from that. But a pushback I've
got for some of my friends is the

476
00:41:42.679 --> 00:41:50.039
idea that why should we care about
how the Jewish people worshiped in the synagogue?

477
00:41:50.119 --> 00:41:52.440
And I remember in one of your
videos we talked about in the Old

478
00:41:52.480 --> 00:41:59.599
Testament some profit giving the instruction for
the worship in the synagogue. Do you

479
00:41:59.679 --> 00:42:05.599
remember who that was? Yeah,
So basically it has to do with the

480
00:42:05.639 --> 00:42:10.360
time of Hezekiah, right, So
it's set up I think a couple I

481
00:42:10.440 --> 00:42:20.039
think a couple hundred years after David. But it's in my article that the

482
00:42:20.119 --> 00:42:23.079
Bible itself teaches a sacred tradition.
So I'm going to pull that up here.

483
00:42:25.719 --> 00:42:32.239
Let's see. So it says my
article says, when we serve at

484
00:42:32.280 --> 00:42:36.840
the Old Testament, we realize that
the patriarch's alter. Genesis operated according to

485
00:42:36.920 --> 00:42:40.440
an infallible oral tradition when God was
not giving you revelation, of course,

486
00:42:42.360 --> 00:42:45.280
and so when Abraham built an altar, he didn't have a book or written

487
00:42:45.320 --> 00:42:47.719
text necessarily to instruct him. He
had truths that have been passed down from

488
00:42:47.760 --> 00:42:52.400
the time of Adam in the godly
line of Seth, and whatever revelations God

489
00:42:52.480 --> 00:42:57.119
had spoken to those people, he
didn't refer back to a book necessarily called

490
00:42:57.199 --> 00:43:00.480
Genesis. As an even better example, we can look at the four of

491
00:43:00.519 --> 00:43:05.000
the Temple worship of God based on
the oral tradition of Second Chronicles twenty nine

492
00:43:05.719 --> 00:43:08.519
concerning King Hezekiah. Yeah, I
was right, and he stationed the Levites

493
00:43:08.599 --> 00:43:13.360
in the House of the Lord with
symbols and the instruments the harps, according

494
00:43:13.400 --> 00:43:17.039
to the commandment of David and God
the king seer and Nathan the prophet.

495
00:43:17.320 --> 00:43:22.159
For thus was the commandment of the
Lord by his prophets. The levites stood

496
00:43:22.199 --> 00:43:24.480
with the instruments of David and the
priests with the trumpets. So here we

497
00:43:24.559 --> 00:43:29.800
have the organization of the liturgical worship
at the Temple, and it's said to

498
00:43:29.880 --> 00:43:34.599
be done via Hezekiah. However,
we don't have a written record of what

499
00:43:34.760 --> 00:43:37.840
David commanded concerning these things. Furthermore, it's also clear, nor do we

500
00:43:38.199 --> 00:43:42.880
obviously of David or God or ex
human Nathan or God. It is also

501
00:43:42.960 --> 00:43:46.360
clear that David flourished some two hundred
and fifty years before King Hezekiah. So

502
00:43:46.480 --> 00:43:52.119
it would be argued then that David's
revelation right was passed down in some form

503
00:43:52.519 --> 00:43:59.159
orally presumably, and that's how the
liturgical worship at that time was organized for

504
00:43:59.280 --> 00:44:01.239
the Temple. So not everything,
by the way, passes from the Temple

505
00:44:01.320 --> 00:44:07.920
into the church. Obviously some things
were a detriment to the easy spread of

506
00:44:07.000 --> 00:44:09.599
the Gospel. So for example,
if we're going to be setting up churches

507
00:44:09.599 --> 00:44:14.079
throughout the world, then a lot
of the land laws that relate to Israel

508
00:44:14.159 --> 00:44:17.360
and the actual land, like the
Jubilee laws or the not sowing seeds in

509
00:44:17.400 --> 00:44:22.679
a field or whatever, Obviously those
wouldn't carry over. Not everything about the

510
00:44:22.679 --> 00:44:25.880
temple carries over, right, like
animal sacrifices, but certain things do carry

511
00:44:25.920 --> 00:44:30.079
over. But the point here of
this text is just to point out that

512
00:44:30.519 --> 00:44:37.320
as Hezekiah is organizing the liturgical worship, he's doing it on some tradition from

513
00:44:37.440 --> 00:44:42.159
David, Gad and Nathan two hundred
years before his time. That's not written

514
00:44:42.280 --> 00:44:47.280
down. And by the way,
reminder, I forgot this other text in

515
00:44:47.480 --> 00:44:52.400
a Soura five, which is even
more clear, where Alla says, quote

516
00:44:52.440 --> 00:44:57.400
unquote, we sent Jesus in the
footsteps of the Prophets. We sent Jesus

517
00:44:57.960 --> 00:45:02.920
confirming the Torah revealed before him.
We gave him the Gospel guidance and light

518
00:45:04.119 --> 00:45:08.599
confirming what was in the Torah.
So let the people of Gospel judge what

519
00:45:08.760 --> 00:45:14.920
all that has revealed in it clear
as day. You're told to check the

520
00:45:15.000 --> 00:45:20.199
revelation of the Qoran against the prior
revelation of Torah and Gospel. How could

521
00:45:20.280 --> 00:45:23.719
I do that? If Torah and
Gospel corrupt, thus you must look to

522
00:45:23.840 --> 00:45:28.280
Kuran. You see how dumb this
is. This is how stupid this religion

523
00:45:28.400 --> 00:45:32.400
is, and it collapses from this
rcord. Go ahead, Sorry, Oh

524
00:45:32.480 --> 00:45:37.400
you're okay, Uh, yeah,
that's really awful. I appreciate that if

525
00:45:37.440 --> 00:45:40.519
you have time. I have one
more question when it comes to Orthodox worship.

526
00:45:40.559 --> 00:45:44.440
I don't know if that's sure.
You want to go over, Go

527
00:45:44.480 --> 00:45:50.599
ahead, sure. So when it
comes to incense, right, we see

528
00:45:51.599 --> 00:45:55.760
how would nate ab and abay who
tried to offer incense unto the Lord,

529
00:45:57.199 --> 00:46:00.079
and they try to, you know, do their own home, and that

530
00:46:00.159 --> 00:46:07.559
doesn't end very well. A question
I've had is where does Orthodoxy get their

531
00:46:08.079 --> 00:46:14.800
mix of incense from. Is that
just from a oral tradition? I think

532
00:46:14.840 --> 00:46:20.000
from asking people. People have given
me different recipes that are used, and

533
00:46:20.159 --> 00:46:22.599
I was just kind of curious on
that. Well, I don't think the

534
00:46:22.840 --> 00:46:28.039
sin of native and Abayhu is the
recipe. It's more so that they did

535
00:46:28.079 --> 00:46:30.880
it in the incorrect way. They
weren't supposed to be doing it the way

536
00:46:30.920 --> 00:46:34.639
they did it, and so they
were killed for doing that. I mean,

537
00:46:34.679 --> 00:46:37.840
it's a little we can go read
it. But we have the prediction,

538
00:46:37.960 --> 00:46:40.519
for example, in Malachi one,
from the rising of the sun to

539
00:46:40.639 --> 00:46:44.840
it's going down, my name will
be great amongst the gentiles. In every

540
00:46:45.000 --> 00:46:49.119
place, incense will be offered to
my name, and a pure offering for

541
00:46:49.239 --> 00:46:52.519
my name will be great amongst the
nations. The gentile nation says the word

542
00:46:52.559 --> 00:46:55.079
of host. So Malachi one is
predicting that in the Messianic era, one

543
00:46:55.119 --> 00:47:00.000
of those signs will be that the
nations all over the world will offer incense

544
00:47:00.079 --> 00:47:05.079
to God. So there is some
allowance to some prediction of this permission on

545
00:47:05.159 --> 00:47:08.000
the part of the church to eventually
have incense as part of the worship,

546
00:47:08.039 --> 00:47:10.679
and of course, from the earliest
days of the church up until now,

547
00:47:12.480 --> 00:47:15.280
that's obviously been the church's practice.
So one of the signs, according to

548
00:47:15.320 --> 00:47:19.599
Malachi one to eleven of the true
churches, that you would notice these kinds

549
00:47:19.599 --> 00:47:23.559
of things. So I don't think
it's so much about the mixture, and

550
00:47:25.400 --> 00:47:30.440
I don't actually know where. I'm
sure it's probably just some tradition as to

551
00:47:30.519 --> 00:47:37.159
what makes it up. But if
we go and read Leviticus, I think

552
00:47:37.559 --> 00:47:42.719
it's either ten or eleven. It's
ten. It says that they offered strange

553
00:47:42.800 --> 00:47:46.679
fire, as He had not commanded
them, So their sin is more of

554
00:47:46.719 --> 00:47:51.920
an intentional inner thing, that they're
doing this in some improper way. I

555
00:47:51.960 --> 00:47:58.159
don't think it has anything to do
with like the mix. I see,

556
00:47:58.360 --> 00:48:02.159
all right, Yeah, I appreciate
that. Yeah, I think that really

557
00:48:02.239 --> 00:48:06.800
covers the questions I have right now. Father Dickon, do you know what

558
00:48:06.960 --> 00:48:09.800
the tradition is? He? I
mean, Father Dicken's a participant in the

559
00:48:09.840 --> 00:48:13.639
liturgy, so he could probably answer
this better. Than me. What do

560
00:48:13.719 --> 00:48:19.199
you know where the tradition as to
what incense is used. I mean,

561
00:48:19.199 --> 00:48:22.880
I'm sure it's like Frankensin's murder,
right that the wise men m Father Digan,

562
00:48:22.920 --> 00:48:31.840
are you there? He's indisposed at
this time. So that's a good

563
00:48:31.920 --> 00:48:40.920
question. Let's say, Zeus,
we are being honored the presence of the

564
00:48:43.039 --> 00:48:46.559
chief of the Greek gods. The
Greek pantheon is honoring us with its leader,

565
00:48:46.719 --> 00:49:00.360
Zeus? What's up? Zeus?
Ei? There? Can you man?

566
00:49:00.400 --> 00:49:06.000
What's up? Yeah? So I
have a couple of questions. First

567
00:49:06.039 --> 00:49:08.960
of all, I remember in the
stream you had with I believe it was

568
00:49:09.079 --> 00:49:20.679
doctor bou Branson, he mentioned the
essentially the ecclesial structure of Old Testament Arudaism,

569
00:49:21.360 --> 00:49:28.880
how they would have synods. Yeah, it's in the debate with It's

570
00:49:29.280 --> 00:49:35.599
it's in the debate with Dale the
Protestant, right. Yeah, I just

571
00:49:35.800 --> 00:49:38.760
wanted to ask you to go more
in depth into that and how that relates

572
00:49:38.880 --> 00:49:45.199
now with the New Covenant Church.
Uh. Well, everybody can go watch

573
00:49:45.320 --> 00:49:53.679
that stream. It's called Jay Dyer
bau Branson debate with Dale the Protestant and

574
00:49:53.840 --> 00:50:01.599
doctor Branson gives just some analogies between
the structure of the synagogue and the rabbinical

575
00:50:01.639 --> 00:50:06.079
structure in the Old Testament, and
how they judged matters. You know,

576
00:50:06.199 --> 00:50:09.719
you have the levites and the priest
judging matters, and then the synagogue system

577
00:50:09.760 --> 00:50:15.119
set up by Ezra helps to do
that throughout Israel and in the diaspora.

578
00:50:17.360 --> 00:50:25.000
So his point in that talk was
just that it's decentralized and the best model

579
00:50:25.119 --> 00:50:30.000
for that, he says, He
argues, you find in the Orthodox Church.

580
00:50:30.119 --> 00:50:45.159
It's not the Roman Catholic system.
Mister Owl, can hear me?

581
00:50:45.360 --> 00:50:55.199
Hey, what's up? Hey?
I had a question about discussing if we

582
00:50:55.320 --> 00:51:00.400
as traditional Christians, I'm a Catholic, sometimes miss the forest for the trees

583
00:51:01.199 --> 00:51:12.000
when debating very technical theological matters.
I see that as as a Catholic,

584
00:51:12.760 --> 00:51:17.000
I can clean a lot of knowledge
and wisdom from our Syriac Christian brothers,

585
00:51:17.320 --> 00:51:27.280
our Orthodox Christian brothers, and I
wonder if sometimes during these debates that if

586
00:51:27.320 --> 00:51:34.199
we aren't, if it wouldn't be
a better use of our time to think

587
00:51:34.239 --> 00:51:38.960
about ways that we can build a
better traditional Christian coalition to overcome the evils

588
00:51:39.039 --> 00:51:44.880
of the world. Instead. Well, but we think that theology is first

589
00:51:44.880 --> 00:51:45.960
and foremost, So, how are
we going to build How are we going

590
00:51:46.039 --> 00:51:50.440
to build a coalition with people who
are heretics? Should Basil have built a

591
00:51:50.519 --> 00:51:55.760
coalition with Eunomias? Yeah, but
like from my Catholic perspective, can you

592
00:51:55.880 --> 00:51:59.840
stop you in bubble gum if you're
going to come on the fricking stream And

593
00:52:00.039 --> 00:52:00.760
I'm just sorry, I'm just not
in the mood for this kind of a

594
00:52:00.880 --> 00:52:13.000
piety discussion here, Colt, what's
up? He's over here with them Bubbleicious

595
00:52:13.800 --> 00:52:17.760
trying to piety signal with Bubblelicious.
What's up? Man? Oh hey,

596
00:52:19.519 --> 00:52:22.280
Before I begin, I just want
to state real quick that I think today

597
00:52:22.400 --> 00:52:25.639
is the anniversary of the fall of
Constantinople, So I think prayers would be

598
00:52:25.719 --> 00:52:29.280
good. I don't know, Sorry
if it's random, That's just something that

599
00:52:29.400 --> 00:52:32.079
was on my mind. Anyway.
Two questions I have, So one is

600
00:52:32.119 --> 00:52:37.000
about the Trinity, and I've noticed
that there's a lot of debate about you

601
00:52:37.079 --> 00:52:39.760
know, people I know Protestants,
I mean I do, Catholics do it

602
00:52:39.800 --> 00:52:43.719
too, but I know it's more
of a proof text for Protestants. They'll

603
00:52:43.719 --> 00:52:47.440
show these proof texts like, oh, well, this verse in Galatians.

604
00:52:49.119 --> 00:52:52.760
Paul calls Jesus the Spirit of Christ. And there's other passages. I'm sure

605
00:52:52.760 --> 00:52:55.639
I don't know them off the top
of my head. What would your what

606
00:52:55.639 --> 00:52:59.840
would be your take on some of
those Bible verses they'll point to I'm assuming

607
00:53:00.039 --> 00:53:04.199
to be going to be a not
hyposthetic origin. Ryan. Yeah, nobody

608
00:53:04.320 --> 00:53:07.239
believes that the Holy Spirit sent Christ. Right, But if you read Isaiah,

609
00:53:07.440 --> 00:53:14.760
I think it's Isaiah forty I just
read it last night, forty nine

610
00:53:14.920 --> 00:53:22.880
or somewhere. Let's see here,
I am the Lord has sent me.

611
00:53:23.079 --> 00:53:34.599
Maybe it's forty two. I just
read it last night. Anyway, something

612
00:53:34.639 --> 00:53:37.639
else, No, this this matters. I want to I understand. I

613
00:53:37.719 --> 00:53:42.960
want to go to it though,
because it's in Isaiah, and it's a

614
00:53:43.000 --> 00:53:49.880
really important passage for this for this
point, it's forty eight. So this

615
00:53:50.039 --> 00:53:53.360
is a messianic prophecy. Is Christ
speaking come near to me? I have

616
00:53:53.480 --> 00:53:57.599
not spoken and secret from the beginning, from the time that it was I

617
00:53:57.840 --> 00:54:00.599
was there, and now the Lord
God and his Spirit have sent me.

618
00:54:01.159 --> 00:54:08.800
Okay. So this is the Messiah
speaking about his coming his economia. Okay,

619
00:54:08.960 --> 00:54:15.639
And nobody out there believes that the
that this, that the Holy Spirit

620
00:54:15.760 --> 00:54:21.679
generates the Sun. So this proves
that we can't take every passage like this

621
00:54:22.639 --> 00:54:29.360
as that's economia and read it back
into the intertrinitarian relations. Yeah, if

622
00:54:29.400 --> 00:54:31.199
you don't mind it, because I
was actually going to bring up something else

623
00:54:31.239 --> 00:54:35.320
that I thought that was interesting about
this topic. Whatever you want, Yeah,

624
00:54:35.639 --> 00:54:37.760
And I just wonder if you could
check my thinking and make sure it's

625
00:54:37.800 --> 00:54:39.840
proper. But something I've thought about
is that, uh, a lot of

626
00:54:39.880 --> 00:54:44.719
people who defend the filioquin is that
you know, they'll they'll look at those

627
00:54:44.719 --> 00:54:47.519
passages. But something I thought about
is that, well, if the Holy

628
00:54:47.599 --> 00:54:53.280
Spirit coming through the sun, if
that is a reflection of hypostatic origin,

629
00:54:53.519 --> 00:54:57.920
I don't think that can work because
from what I understand. You know,

630
00:54:57.960 --> 00:55:00.320
if you read the Gospels, what
does it say Mary and the Holy Spirit

631
00:55:00.440 --> 00:55:05.280
conceived. So wouldn't it be fair
to say all of the actions of the

632
00:55:05.400 --> 00:55:09.239
Sun are becaused the Spirit and Mary, you know, conceived, and or

633
00:55:09.360 --> 00:55:12.920
well, the Holy Spirit calls Mary
to conceive, So would it be fair

634
00:55:13.039 --> 00:55:17.920
to say that the Son in some
sense was through economya manifested by the Holy

635
00:55:19.000 --> 00:55:21.360
Spirit, since it was the Holy
Spirit that calls Mary to become pregnant.

636
00:55:21.360 --> 00:55:24.159
Would would that be a fair statement
or was there something like that? Wait,

637
00:55:24.519 --> 00:55:28.800
I'm sorry I said this argument again. I don't know. Something I

638
00:55:28.920 --> 00:55:31.880
was just thinking about is you know, since all the actions of Jesus the

639
00:55:31.960 --> 00:55:37.719
incarnate flesh, isn't that because the
Holy Spirit caused Mary to become pregnant?

640
00:55:37.760 --> 00:55:45.639
So would it be fair to say
that in some sense the incarnation was caused

641
00:55:45.679 --> 00:55:51.199
by the spirit in some sense?
Since you know, sorry, this is

642
00:55:51.280 --> 00:55:52.480
kind of no. No, I
mean I think you can say that,

643
00:55:53.159 --> 00:55:59.719
because I mean, that's what the
passage in Isaiah just said. It's talking

644
00:55:59.719 --> 00:56:02.360
about it's talking about the incarnation.
Yeah, I don't know. I just

645
00:56:02.360 --> 00:56:06.480
couldn't help but think about it,
because I know, even though I'm a

646
00:56:06.519 --> 00:56:09.320
Protestant, I know, generally with
the exception of the Moravians and maybe I

647
00:56:09.360 --> 00:56:14.239
don't know Minna Night's generally Protestants except
the Philli Oquay. And I've just been

648
00:56:14.280 --> 00:56:17.639
really trying to think about this issue
because for the longest time I actually used

649
00:56:17.639 --> 00:56:21.519
to be like a Deist and a
Trinity denier, because you know, I

650
00:56:21.599 --> 00:56:23.920
was a Trinity denyer because I thought
the Trinity was Sabellianism. But of course

651
00:56:24.119 --> 00:56:28.760
nobody taught me what the Trinity actually
meant. When I learned what it actually

652
00:56:28.880 --> 00:56:32.480
meant, it makes a lot more
sense. And I'm actually a Sunday school

653
00:56:32.519 --> 00:56:36.000
teacher at my local church, and
I remember when I got a question about

654
00:56:36.000 --> 00:56:37.360
the training, I said, hey, look, this isn't the Western view,

655
00:56:37.440 --> 00:56:39.519
but this is the Eastern view.
And I'm giving you all the Eastern

656
00:56:39.559 --> 00:56:45.559
view because this is what's given at
Constantinople. Sorry, by the way,

657
00:56:45.599 --> 00:56:49.440
I haven't read the Council of Constantinople. I'm still working through some of the

658
00:56:49.480 --> 00:56:54.639
pretty nice scene fathers. I actually
just got yeah, sorry, Constantinople won

659
00:56:54.719 --> 00:57:00.840
the second Ecumenical Council. I don't
know. That was just oh no,

660
00:57:00.920 --> 00:57:05.000
Monarchical trinitarianism seems to make more sense, absolutely, yeah. And it's the

661
00:57:05.039 --> 00:57:10.679
best way that we refute Islam too. Now if you notice, and John,

662
00:57:12.239 --> 00:57:16.280
excuse me, John fifteen it says
Jesus actually explains in this very passage,

663
00:57:16.320 --> 00:57:22.880
if you pay attention the difference between
personal origin and economics, sending economia

664
00:57:23.360 --> 00:57:27.880
when the helper comes, who I
will send to you from the Father?

665
00:57:28.119 --> 00:57:31.320
So Jesus sending it to the apostles
in the economia. Right, So that's

666
00:57:31.360 --> 00:57:37.360
the economia. The spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father. Okay,

667
00:57:37.880 --> 00:57:43.199
so very clearly in John fifteen twenty
six, Jesus distinguishes for us the

668
00:57:43.320 --> 00:57:49.920
economia and the existential hyposthetic origin,
which is from the soul cause the Father

669
00:57:50.039 --> 00:57:55.519
alone. Okay. The second thing
I wanted to discuss was the canon.

670
00:57:55.960 --> 00:58:00.480
And again probably not that they for
me to say, but i'd say Orthodox

671
00:58:00.880 --> 00:58:05.559
more so than Catholic on this issue. But it really starting to win me

672
00:58:05.639 --> 00:58:08.760
over on the canon because I don't
know if people are just being dishonest or

673
00:58:08.800 --> 00:58:13.960
they haven't read it yet, but
I've seen patristic witness to the Dutero canon.

674
00:58:15.079 --> 00:58:17.480
Yeah, you can just search.
I mean it's literally sighted dozens of

675
00:58:17.559 --> 00:58:23.079
times, the new system of sites
to Deuerro canon dozens of times. Yeah,

676
00:58:23.079 --> 00:58:27.639
I've been looking into those passages.
I actually just got done reading the

677
00:58:27.719 --> 00:58:30.920
Wisdom of Solomon and yeah, did
you notice that? Did you notice Romans

678
00:58:31.000 --> 00:58:37.320
and Wisdom parallel? Yes? But
I also noticed parallels between James and Siroc.

679
00:58:37.679 --> 00:58:43.199
Yeah, and there's parallels when Jesus
a lot of his parables, they're

680
00:58:43.599 --> 00:58:49.199
in dudo canonical texts. Yeah.
The only one that I really haven't seen

681
00:58:49.239 --> 00:58:52.519
yet. And keep in mine eyes
read very little is Third Maccabees. But

682
00:58:52.599 --> 00:58:57.800
I know that's not the core of
the debate. Well, Third Maccabees is

683
00:58:57.880 --> 00:59:05.000
interesting because it's another at testation to
the way that abomination of desolation can be

684
00:59:05.079 --> 00:59:10.159
mirrored because Ptolemy does the same type
of actions of what Antichrist has and will

685
00:59:10.280 --> 00:59:19.079
do, which is you have Antiochus
apafanis in Maccabees profaning the temple. You

686
00:59:19.199 --> 00:59:25.079
have in Third Macabees told me instituting
a buying and sell mark that everybody has

687
00:59:25.159 --> 00:59:29.800
to have, which is interesting because
it actually said I didn't realize I've forgotten.

688
00:59:29.840 --> 00:59:31.159
It says this. I went back
in there the other day and I

689
00:59:31.239 --> 00:59:37.800
was reading Third Macabees. It actually
says the mysteries, So what do you

690
00:59:37.880 --> 00:59:45.000
know. Third Maccabees actually mentioned the
mysteries like as in the Mysterieschools two says,

691
00:59:45.039 --> 00:59:49.199
when Ptolemy assaults the Jews, he
creates this is, by the way,

692
00:59:49.360 --> 00:59:55.039
is a key helper to understanding and
decoding the meaning of the apocalypse.

693
00:59:55.400 --> 01:00:00.239
So let's see. And now here's
a bunch of this is just a bunch

694
01:00:00.280 --> 01:00:05.039
of new This is some Catholic website, but it's basically citations from the Dudero

695
01:00:05.159 --> 01:00:12.440
canon in the New Testament. But
let me show you this fascinating passage in

696
01:00:12.599 --> 01:00:22.119
third Macabees here. M hmm,
I don't want a PDF. Let's see

697
01:00:22.679 --> 01:00:37.360
it's another PDF, okay, Macabes
two. And this is a verse twenty

698
01:00:37.480 --> 01:00:44.559
seven. It says Jewish. Oh
I knew it. I knew there was

699
01:00:44.599 --> 01:00:47.000
a Maccabee's reference to the word Jewish. This is what I was looking for

700
01:00:47.719 --> 01:00:51.880
with that idiot black keeper Israelite called
in. Was this right here? Dang

701
01:00:51.920 --> 01:00:53.599
it? And see how I found
it. I knew I had just read

702
01:00:53.679 --> 01:00:58.320
this, and I forgot it was
in It says the Jewish nation. Look

703
01:00:58.360 --> 01:01:01.760
at that. There no reference to
Jewish in the old tests of me.

704
01:01:02.440 --> 01:01:07.519
Let me tell you something right here, and look at third maccab He's twenty

705
01:01:07.599 --> 01:01:14.000
seven told me proposed to inflict public
disgrace upon the Jewish community. He set

706
01:01:14.079 --> 01:01:16.280
up a stone tower in the courtyard
with his inscription, Nobody who does not

707
01:01:16.400 --> 01:01:21.760
sacrifice shall enter the sanctuary. All
Jews will be subjected to poll tax the

708
01:01:21.840 --> 01:01:23.679
status of slaves. Those who objective
that are taking in force to put the

709
01:01:23.760 --> 01:01:29.039
death. Those who are registered must
be branded on their bodies. With fire

710
01:01:29.639 --> 01:01:36.800
and the ivy leaf symbol of Dionysius
the mysteries. Now in my text,

711
01:01:36.880 --> 01:01:43.800
it says those who are not initiated
into the mysteries. Wait, oh,

712
01:01:43.840 --> 01:01:45.920
it says it right here, look
verse thirty. In order that it might

713
01:01:46.000 --> 01:01:50.880
appear, in order that he might
not appear to be an enemy at all,

714
01:01:50.920 --> 01:01:54.480
He described if any of them preferred
to join those who have been initiated

715
01:01:54.559 --> 01:02:00.400
into the mysteries. Look at that
fascinating text. Third Macabees. So the

716
01:02:00.519 --> 01:02:08.480
very text that people downplay are actually
very deep insights into the motivations and machinations

717
01:02:08.599 --> 01:02:14.039
of the Antichrists in history and how
they operate and act. And told me

718
01:02:14.159 --> 01:02:17.480
here is saying that you have to
take the mark. This is an early

719
01:02:17.559 --> 01:02:22.599
mark of the beast. In other
words, this shows us the patterns told

720
01:02:22.679 --> 01:02:24.239
me. He's doing the exact same
thing. He profanes the temple too,

721
01:02:24.320 --> 01:02:29.960
by the way, For I remember, just like Epiphanes did, and the

722
01:02:30.000 --> 01:02:34.760
earlier Macabees Antiochus, and just like
Titus does in seventy eight eight. So

723
01:02:34.920 --> 01:02:42.400
this proves mirroring. Do you understand? I just want to specify that I

724
01:02:42.559 --> 01:02:45.599
was not being anti Third Macabees.
I just stayed here. I didn't think,

725
01:02:45.880 --> 01:02:47.480
I don't think you all right?
Well, yeah, because I was

726
01:02:47.519 --> 01:02:51.559
about to say, because I was
listening to a debate the other day between

727
01:02:51.599 --> 01:02:53.960
Trent Horn and some Protestant over the
cannon, and I actually thought Trent Horn

728
01:02:53.960 --> 01:02:59.320
did mostly well. The only area
where I noticed Trent got stuck was it

729
01:02:59.480 --> 01:03:02.760
the White debate. No, I
don't know who he debated. Actually I

730
01:03:02.760 --> 01:03:06.440
don't remember. I'm sorry. It
was on the pips for the Klinas,

731
01:03:06.840 --> 01:03:09.320
but I'm trying to remember what it
was. Okay, so this is very

732
01:03:09.440 --> 01:03:15.639
technical, but you know how in
the Latin Vulgate, Ezra and Nehemiah are

733
01:03:15.760 --> 01:03:19.000
first as dress and second as Druss. But sometimes that was just one book

734
01:03:19.400 --> 01:03:22.719
called first as Druss. I don't
know what y'all call it in the Orthodox

735
01:03:22.840 --> 01:03:25.679
Bible, but in Protestant Bibles with
the Judo can it's called first Zdruss,

736
01:03:25.840 --> 01:03:30.239
and the Latin Vulgate it would be
second or third as dress. I know

737
01:03:30.360 --> 01:03:31.440
that kind of stumps tramp up a
little bit. And I'm just thinking,

738
01:03:31.599 --> 01:03:35.679
you know, this isn't a problem
for Orthodox that's in their Bible. Yeah,

739
01:03:35.719 --> 01:03:37.000
I was gonna say, I mean, it's dress in our Bible.

740
01:03:37.119 --> 01:03:42.639
So yeah, And this is an
attack I've seen from Protestants, and I'm

741
01:03:42.679 --> 01:03:46.119
kind of wondering what your take is, is that Orthodox have a different canon.

742
01:03:46.199 --> 01:03:50.719
But the only thing that I'm aware
of is that I think the Russian

743
01:03:50.840 --> 01:03:53.159
Orthodox Church has I don't know what
y'all call it in y'all's Bible, but

744
01:03:53.239 --> 01:03:57.239
if you get a Protestant Bible with
the Judo can, it's called second z

745
01:03:57.320 --> 01:04:00.639
Dress. Is that in. That's
in the Russian Bible, right, I

746
01:04:00.679 --> 01:04:11.400
don't know if it's in the Greek
Bible. So we have what's called first

747
01:04:11.519 --> 01:04:15.599
Ezra, which is second Esdras,
and then second Ezra, which is Ezra

748
01:04:15.760 --> 01:04:21.119
and second Esdras, so it's it's
both, all right. I was just

749
01:04:21.159 --> 01:04:26.320
bringing that up because I know that
I'm pretty sure that's in the Russian Bible.

750
01:04:26.360 --> 01:04:30.039
I don't think it's in the Orthodox
Study Bible because there is no full

751
01:04:30.119 --> 01:04:32.280
breaks of tuig and translation of it. You'd have to translate it from the

752
01:04:32.360 --> 01:04:35.239
Latin Vulgate. It's just from the
research I've done, I just seen to

753
01:04:35.320 --> 01:04:39.599
this, and in fact, one
of my dear friends who's half Russian half

754
01:04:39.679 --> 01:04:43.159
Ukrainian, she's got a Ukrainian Bible
and a Russian Bible, and they both

755
01:04:43.199 --> 01:04:45.039
have that book. I don't know. Yeah, no, I think you're

756
01:04:45.119 --> 01:04:47.760
right about this, and now you're
correct about this. And also I think

757
01:04:47.880 --> 01:04:54.800
some of the some of the Slavonic
Bibles also include Enoch. I think,

758
01:04:57.079 --> 01:05:00.280
now that's interesting. Yeah, they're
they're not necessarily, but it's included in

759
01:05:00.400 --> 01:05:03.599
some of those versions. Yeah,
I was gonna ask, because I know

760
01:05:03.639 --> 01:05:06.960
there's also Fourth mccabees, which I
know is put as an appendix but not

761
01:05:08.199 --> 01:05:15.880
canonical. Yeah, I'm not familiar
with what the status of fourth mccabees is,

762
01:05:15.360 --> 01:05:17.719
but I think for the Orthodox it's
not that big of a deal because

763
01:05:18.360 --> 01:05:23.639
we don't have a problem like admitting
that there's tradition outside of the written text.

764
01:05:24.079 --> 01:05:27.840
So it would really only be a
problem for somebody who has a kind

765
01:05:27.840 --> 01:05:30.199
of a solar scriptura type position.
And so when we argue for the canon

766
01:05:31.079 --> 01:05:36.599
against the Protestant we're not arguing that
that our position is right because of solar

767
01:05:36.639 --> 01:05:41.079
scripture. In the Orthodox Church.
We're saying that it's not a problem for

768
01:05:41.280 --> 01:05:45.119
us because we're not restricting divine revelation
to the written text only, so we

769
01:05:45.199 --> 01:05:47.760
don't have a problem. I mean, the you know, some of the

770
01:05:47.800 --> 01:05:54.760
early Church traditions are in you know, extra canonical text pro to Evangelica,

771
01:05:54.880 --> 01:05:58.519
James, right. I mean,
there's traditions about Mary in those extra canonical

772
01:05:58.599 --> 01:06:02.280
texts, and it doesn't it's not
a problem for us. Nor is the

773
01:06:02.320 --> 01:06:06.199
Book of inocal problem for us.
If we admit there's tradition outside of you

774
01:06:06.280 --> 01:06:10.559
know, the written text of Scripture, and some of those extra canonical traditions

775
01:06:10.599 --> 01:06:15.039
can be oral or written down,
there's still extra extra canonical traditions. Does

776
01:06:15.079 --> 01:06:18.360
that make sense? Absolutely? I
didn't think that was a problem for y'all,

777
01:06:18.400 --> 01:06:21.719
since solo scripture is not a principle
for the Orthodox, so I didn't

778
01:06:21.760 --> 01:06:27.000
think a book or two variation was
going to be devastating. So I don't

779
01:06:27.000 --> 01:06:29.599
know. I'm just kind of curious
about that. And then I know it's

780
01:06:29.599 --> 01:06:31.719
going to sound game retarded. But
part of the reason that the Orthodox have

781
01:06:31.800 --> 01:06:34.559
winning me overset I just really like
the content of these books. I know

782
01:06:34.639 --> 01:06:39.440
that's a stupid argument to make.
I know there's the historical but I just

783
01:06:39.719 --> 01:06:42.199
I like, I don't know.
When I try to tell people about the

784
01:06:42.320 --> 01:06:44.800
Bible, you know, I want
to tell them about Tovid because it's a

785
01:06:44.880 --> 01:06:48.239
very inspiring story or maybe women.
I might tell them about Judas the widow

786
01:06:48.360 --> 01:06:53.960
that became an unlikely hero and stuff
like that. And you know, it's

787
01:06:54.360 --> 01:06:57.519
kind of unfortunate because something I tell
a lot of my friends is that,

788
01:06:57.679 --> 01:07:01.320
you know, these books were printed
in the original King James Bible except for

789
01:07:01.400 --> 01:07:04.679
third Maccabees or Paw one fifty one, but all the rest were And then

790
01:07:05.679 --> 01:07:11.760
I tell them that Eastern Christians unanimously
accept these books. And it's kind of

791
01:07:11.880 --> 01:07:15.679
terrible because I think up until the
eighteen thirties, all of these books were

792
01:07:15.840 --> 01:07:20.639
printed in Protestant Bibles in their own
section, mind you, But yeah,

793
01:07:24.119 --> 01:07:31.199
yeah, I appreciate that. Let's
see, now I'm going from memory here

794
01:07:31.320 --> 01:07:36.880
that I might be thinking of Second
Enoch because it's only in Slavonic, which

795
01:07:36.920 --> 01:07:46.199
is interesting that maybe some Slavonic Bibles
include it because it's only in Slavonic.

796
01:07:46.280 --> 01:07:53.000
That's interesting. So second Slavonic.
Excuse me, a second Innich is only

797
01:07:53.039 --> 01:07:57.320
in Slavonic. Jewish supergraphica preserved in
the Slavonic language. I'd be antertued to

798
01:07:57.400 --> 01:08:08.639
know why it's only preserved in Slavonic. That's interesting. You know, a

799
01:08:08.719 --> 01:08:15.519
lot of this stuff we don't even
know, like it's there's like mysteries around

800
01:08:15.000 --> 01:08:24.039
various books. So but am I
right that some Slavonic Bibles have Enich kind

801
01:08:24.079 --> 01:08:27.720
of like the way the King James
Bible, the original King James Bible included

802
01:08:27.720 --> 01:08:32.119
the apocrypha, but it was like
an appendix. I think some Slavonic Bibles

803
01:08:32.159 --> 01:08:41.600
have Enich as an appendix, if
I'm correct. Anyway, Father Deacon can

804
01:08:41.640 --> 01:08:44.399
maybe speak to this if you're available. Had it. We had a question

805
01:08:44.479 --> 01:08:48.479
earlier about do you know the origin
of the incense that's used in the liturgy?

806
01:08:48.560 --> 01:08:57.680
What specifically the is just a tradition? You got? I'm mute if

807
01:08:57.720 --> 01:09:00.680
you're there, FDA storm the cat
five dollars? Sorry? Got what what

808
01:09:00.840 --> 01:09:04.520
did you ask? Because like when
you when you bring me in like for

809
01:09:04.800 --> 01:09:09.039
it, it mutes like I can't
hear you for a little bit, like

810
01:09:09.079 --> 01:09:12.359
a few seconds. But you're asking
somebody about the Somebody asked if there's any

811
01:09:12.640 --> 01:09:16.000
like basis or is it just a
tradition in terms of like what uh incense

812
01:09:16.119 --> 01:09:20.039
is used in the liturgy? Oh, that's weird. It just was with

813
01:09:20.199 --> 01:09:27.079
the clergy this week and we were
talking about incense and here you guys are

814
01:09:27.199 --> 01:09:34.439
asking what what incense? Well,
typically ideally is the act like a good

815
01:09:34.560 --> 01:09:42.319
quality like from Jerusalem of frankincense Orr. I mean, I'm but he was

816
01:09:42.399 --> 01:09:45.960
asking why that is it merely because
the wise men bring that? Is that

817
01:09:46.079 --> 01:09:54.920
one? I think? So?
I mean, for example, Father Russell

818
01:09:55.039 --> 01:09:58.720
to answer this question, somebody was
getting all upset. You know, why

819
01:09:58.760 --> 01:10:03.399
do you Orthodox? You gold in
your and your altars? And uh,

820
01:10:03.600 --> 01:10:06.640
you know, shouldn't that be better
used than the poor? Now, my

821
01:10:08.000 --> 01:10:11.279
my remark is like there was somebody
in the Bible that gave that same argument.

822
01:10:11.319 --> 01:10:15.760
Do you remember that? Yeah,
Judas, Yeah, he didn't end

823
01:10:15.800 --> 01:10:18.600
out too well. But number two
and this was Father Russell's point. And

824
01:10:18.640 --> 01:10:26.479
I always love this because Orthodoxy just
keeps what was always capped and gold was

825
01:10:26.640 --> 01:10:30.279
always used in worship of God.
Who were we to undo it? And

826
01:10:30.399 --> 01:10:35.840
that's a really kind of great way
of thinking about it, that Frankinson's and

827
01:10:35.960 --> 01:10:43.159
gold, these are used in worship. We're not gonna undo what has always

828
01:10:43.239 --> 01:10:50.279
been used in worship for God.
M All right, let's see now remember

829
01:10:50.359 --> 01:10:57.800
the guy guy. Tonight's discussion is
specifically Catholicism, Libertarianism, Protestantism. Like

830
01:10:57.880 --> 01:11:01.359
Keeper Israelites, anti Trinitarians, Muslim's, Unitarian shows, Witnesses, Mormons.

831
01:11:01.840 --> 01:11:04.920
That's a nice topic. So I'm
not mad at anybody asking about the cannon

832
01:11:05.680 --> 01:11:23.520
or incense, but those aren't the
topics tonight, mister Owl, got it?

833
01:11:23.560 --> 01:11:29.039
I mute hi, I'll be concise. Well the way did you hear

834
01:11:29.119 --> 01:11:30.359
that? Supposedly? I don't know
if this I don't know if somebody was

835
01:11:30.359 --> 01:11:34.239
making a joke, but they said
Nick Cage is going to play job?

836
01:11:36.119 --> 01:11:39.159
What the heck? I feel like
I'm in a dream. Go ahead,

837
01:11:40.319 --> 01:11:45.479
I'll be concise again, what in
particular, how could you elaborate on what

838
01:11:45.800 --> 01:11:50.359
keeps Catholics and Orthodox from forming a
strong coalition? I'm sorry, where they

839
01:11:50.399 --> 01:11:56.560
still respect each other? And technology? So again we're not that's not the

840
01:11:56.640 --> 01:12:00.079
topic. So again I'm not trying
to be mean, but specifically, I

841
01:12:00.159 --> 01:12:08.720
said what the topic was, Paul, what's up? Is Nicholas Cage gonna

842
01:12:08.720 --> 01:12:15.199
play job? What the heck?
Dude? Maybe somebody was making a joke

843
01:12:15.279 --> 01:12:21.680
on Twitter. I thought that was
real. Oh this says this makes it

844
01:12:21.800 --> 01:12:31.520
like it was a job. What. Oh they're gonna oh no, they're

845
01:12:31.520 --> 01:12:34.319
gonna make it a horror. I
guess it could be a horror job is

846
01:12:34.439 --> 01:12:41.319
kind of a horror job is kind
of a horror story. So our hero

847
01:12:41.600 --> 01:12:49.880
Nick over here is gonna be reportedly
playing job. O don't know, And

848
01:12:49.960 --> 01:12:57.479
now it's saying it's not job,
it's I don't know. I thought it

849
01:12:57.520 --> 01:13:01.920
was gonna be job. All right. Now I'm worried it's going to be

850
01:13:01.960 --> 01:13:10.319
something blasphemous. It's going to be
playing Jesus' father Joseph. Anyway, never

851
01:13:10.439 --> 01:13:15.000
mind, good news disconfirmed. Paul, what's up? Man? I got

852
01:13:15.079 --> 01:13:19.279
I mute? Oh hey, Jay, I do apologize, but you emphasize

853
01:13:19.359 --> 01:13:24.840
that it's about Catholic, libertarian Protestant. I just had a question about Orthodox

854
01:13:24.960 --> 01:13:28.600
history. If you were just entertain
my question, would that be okay?

855
01:13:28.760 --> 01:13:30.760
Or I mean, is it a
sud bold question or like something really in

856
01:13:30.840 --> 01:13:36.000
depth? Uh no, it's I'm
not so. I'm reading a book by

857
01:13:36.039 --> 01:13:39.840
Timothy Whare. It's called The Orthodox
Church. I'm sure you heard of it,

858
01:13:39.960 --> 01:13:43.560
right, Yeah, right, yeah, yeah, Well I'm currently chewing

859
01:13:43.640 --> 01:13:45.680
through. I'm about halfway through.
But it has to do with the schism

860
01:13:45.720 --> 01:13:51.600
of the Orthodox Church. Yeah,
so you mean with Rome or what do

861
01:13:51.640 --> 01:13:57.279
you mean? Yeah? Between between
the Greek easton and the Roman West.

862
01:13:57.399 --> 01:14:03.439
Okay, yeah, is there like
a specific flash point that Orthodox Christians point

863
01:14:03.479 --> 01:14:06.840
two, like, yeah, this
is what actually caused the schism, because

864
01:14:08.159 --> 01:14:14.359
apparently there's like many many different schisms, like the air control of the Mediterranean,

865
01:14:15.960 --> 01:14:20.199
the Barbarian invasions, that the papacy. I think, yeah, to

866
01:14:20.279 --> 01:14:25.720
answer that question, I think there's
a series of events that kind of we

867
01:14:25.880 --> 01:14:30.000
see the papacy evolving into a thing
that kind of goes outside of its balance,

868
01:14:30.039 --> 01:14:34.560
particularly in the eleventh century. So
the Gregorian papacy is something they look

869
01:14:34.640 --> 01:14:40.840
to. The Gregorian Reforms ten fifty
four is kind of an easy date to

870
01:14:40.920 --> 01:14:45.239
point to in terms of mutual excommunications. But the dogmatization that we have an

871
01:14:45.279 --> 01:14:49.000
issue with is really at the Council
of Lions in twelve seventy four. So

872
01:14:49.199 --> 01:14:53.920
we would take issue with that in
terms of the double eternal hypostatic procession,

873
01:14:54.439 --> 01:14:59.600
and then it's reaffirmed in Florence,
and between Lions and Florence in the West,

874
01:15:00.119 --> 01:15:02.119
we have what's called the Palamite Synods
in the East, which are the

875
01:15:02.199 --> 01:15:08.279
rejection of the teaching of Lions.
Ah. Okay, that's that's all I

876
01:15:08.319 --> 01:15:11.439
got. Thanks million Yeah, that's
a good question. Yeah, I think

877
01:15:11.479 --> 01:15:15.479
that's the that's kind of the definitive
because that's that's the definitive statement from Rome

878
01:15:15.600 --> 01:15:20.479
as to what their position is that
we definitively ended up rejecting. So uh,

879
01:15:20.880 --> 01:15:32.000
let's see Cato. Mm hmm.
Hello, what's up. I just

880
01:15:32.159 --> 01:15:39.279
have a question about heresy, specifically
a Roman Catholic heresy. Okay, So

881
01:15:39.600 --> 01:15:44.800
I've heard you say that the like
I've heard Lawski say. I think it

882
01:15:44.920 --> 01:15:49.720
was Lawski who said that the philioquay
subverts the whole or subdues the Holy Spirit

883
01:15:49.800 --> 01:15:55.800
and the Trinity and therefore causes ecclesiastical
problems in the West. That being of

884
01:15:55.840 --> 01:16:00.079
the Holy Spirit doesn't actually guard the
Latin Church from error anymore because they've demoted

885
01:16:00.119 --> 01:16:02.840
the Holy Spirit. And I just
wanted to know what you think about that.

886
01:16:03.000 --> 01:16:08.760
Do you think that heresy specifically the
philioquay has any societal problems and or

887
01:16:09.000 --> 01:16:13.880
can cause societal issues to occur in
the best Yeah. So this has argued

888
01:16:14.039 --> 01:16:18.359
more in a more philosophical way in
doctor Philip Schard's book Church Papacy Schism.

889
01:16:19.880 --> 01:16:24.760
Pharrell's God History and Dialectic also argues
this point, which is that you get

890
01:16:24.800 --> 01:16:28.960
two different manifestations of two different Europes. You get the Byzantine Europe or the

891
01:16:29.000 --> 01:16:31.520
first millennium, which is the uh, you know, the Orthodox view,

892
01:16:31.600 --> 01:16:36.800
and then you get the Franco Papal
Latin Church, post Gregorian reforms and post

893
01:16:38.159 --> 01:16:41.920
Philioquay. That's manifests in a very
different way. So and I agree with

894
01:16:42.000 --> 01:16:46.239
that, yeah, because a friend
of mine once told me that Orthodox Church

895
01:16:46.600 --> 01:16:53.039
or Orthodox philosophy doesn't hold to consequentialism. And I remember I read a good

896
01:16:53.079 --> 01:16:57.800
bit through Father Sarah from Rose's book
about I think it's called Orthodox Survival Course

897
01:16:57.800 --> 01:17:01.119
where he literally makes a consequentialist argument
and about how the Latin West goes in

898
01:17:01.199 --> 01:17:04.720
a far worse position than the East
could ever go because of the here season

899
01:17:04.800 --> 01:17:09.399
Rome. Well, yeah, but
I mean that's not equivalent to having a

900
01:17:09.520 --> 01:17:13.439
consequentialist ethic. I mean, I
could use an argument from David Hume.

901
01:17:13.560 --> 01:17:16.000
That doesn't make me a Humian.
So oh right, maybe I got the

902
01:17:16.039 --> 01:17:19.880
word wrong though. I also have
another question. Do you know, Jonathan

903
01:17:19.960 --> 01:17:24.680
Hill, I know you're I know
you've you've made your your Actually this isn't

904
01:17:24.720 --> 01:17:27.880
on topic, but it's kind of
on topic because it's a a bit a

905
01:17:27.920 --> 01:17:33.680
bit orthodox theology. He denies that
Christ assumed the universal human nature and could

906
01:17:33.720 --> 01:17:38.079
you explained a bit by what you
mean by that and what right? So

907
01:17:38.199 --> 01:17:42.279
this is, this is taught in
uh Saint Cyril in many places. If

908
01:17:42.319 --> 01:17:47.239
you get the book UH Christological contra
assumeing Saint Cyril of Alexander, The Christological

909
01:17:47.600 --> 01:17:53.960
Controversy by John mcguckan. There's multiple
chapters in there about Cyril's Christology where he

910
01:17:54.039 --> 01:17:59.640
explains that recapitulation necessitates this notion of
assuming all of human nature in a single

911
01:17:59.680 --> 01:18:02.960
divine hypostasis. So this is taught
by Athanasius, this is taught by Cyril,

912
01:18:03.439 --> 01:18:08.039
and it's also later taught at the
Seven Ecumenical Council. Sat the Theodore

913
01:18:08.079 --> 01:18:11.159
or the student teaches it and is
on the Holy Icon's book. So the

914
01:18:11.279 --> 01:18:15.880
only way that all men are resurrected
is by Christ assuming the nature of all

915
01:18:15.960 --> 01:18:18.520
men. That's that's what recapitulation is. Are you familiar with the recapitulation.

916
01:18:19.239 --> 01:18:21.880
Yeah, I've heard you explain it. Well, are you familiar with it?

917
01:18:24.159 --> 01:18:28.119
Uh? It's I'm pretty sure all
men are resurrected because Christ assumed all

918
01:18:28.439 --> 01:18:32.319
Yeah, yeah, so the extent
right, So Adam's fall right is on

919
01:18:32.439 --> 01:18:34.840
all of his descendants, right,
and that's why they all die. And

920
01:18:34.920 --> 01:18:41.439
that's first Green is fifteen, and
so all men are assumed in Christ and

921
01:18:41.479 --> 01:18:45.079
their nature is resurrected. That doesn't
mean they're all sayed, because you're judge

922
01:18:45.119 --> 01:18:47.920
on the basis of your individual hypostatic
mode of willing. That's Saint Maximus.

923
01:18:48.079 --> 01:18:50.920
So this is the cosmic scope.
This is taught in Saint Maximus. It's

924
01:18:50.960 --> 01:18:56.000
not even up for debate. It's
a very well known doctor. Is that

925
01:18:56.159 --> 01:18:59.039
the same as a pocket the stasis? No, it's not the same,

926
01:18:59.239 --> 01:19:02.039
right, Okay, that's all I
had to say, thank you. Yeah,

927
01:19:02.119 --> 01:19:08.960
And there's a great article on this
from Professor Monsritis. Let me pull

928
01:19:09.000 --> 01:19:17.720
it up for you, Georgios Manserrites. And the article is Christ is a

929
01:19:17.840 --> 01:19:23.800
universal person. Have you read that? Okay, I'll get to if I

930
01:19:24.199 --> 01:19:28.239
have no money. Right, it's
an article right here. It's easy,

931
01:19:28.840 --> 01:19:31.640
easily accessible, all right, okay, And I mean he's just kind of

932
01:19:31.720 --> 01:19:35.640
laying out this. I mean he's
one of the most famous theologians in Greece,

933
01:19:35.760 --> 01:19:44.600
very famous Orthodox theologians, priest,
he's a professor of theology at University

934
01:19:44.640 --> 01:19:45.840
of Dessaloniki. I don't know if
he's a priest. I don't think he

935
01:19:45.960 --> 01:19:49.039
is, right, Okay, I
think I heard you mentioned him in one

936
01:19:49.039 --> 01:19:54.439
of your older videos. Yeah.
His book on Gregory Palamos is really good.

937
01:19:54.680 --> 01:19:57.039
So yeah, I think, I
think, I I think I know

938
01:19:57.079 --> 01:20:01.079
what you're on. I will thank
you. J Yeah. So here's this

939
01:20:01.279 --> 01:20:08.479
article about Christ as universal person,
and this is explaining this point of recapitulation

940
01:20:08.720 --> 01:20:12.840
and the assumption of Christ, universal
Christ assume university of Nature. Again.

941
01:20:12.880 --> 01:20:15.279
It's taught in the Seven day Memdical
Council and the writings of St. Theodore's

942
01:20:15.319 --> 01:20:38.359
Today on the Holy Icons. Mattie
Ice, It's also all of Maximus's cosmic

943
01:20:38.439 --> 01:20:41.319
theology is premised on the same idea, Maddie, as you want to talk.

944
01:20:41.399 --> 01:20:56.880
What's up, Mattie? Are either
all right? I'm mute? Go

945
01:20:56.920 --> 01:21:12.880
ahead? All right? Moving on, space hound, space hound? What's

946
01:21:12.960 --> 01:21:21.920
up? Go ahead? I don't
know much about Orthodox but what do you

947
01:21:21.960 --> 01:21:30.800
guys believe about lordship salvation versus free
grace? Yeah, I mean that's really

948
01:21:30.960 --> 01:21:34.640
more of a Protestant evangelical discussion.
We believe that you can lose your salvation

949
01:21:35.159 --> 01:21:41.640
we believe that you have to spend
your life basically in repentance and good works.

950
01:21:41.760 --> 01:21:50.880
That's theosis. Okay, that pretty
much answers it. Let's see man

951
01:21:51.039 --> 01:21:54.800
in the something I can't read the
man in camo. I can't read it.

952
01:21:57.000 --> 01:22:01.640
Looking at the man in the cameo. Oh yeah, mm hmm.

953
01:22:04.960 --> 01:22:15.039
You there, I'm mute. Uh
huh? Are you calling me from the

954
01:22:15.119 --> 01:22:25.000
metal factory? Yeah? Sorry about
that. Here you go. That's better.

955
01:22:26.560 --> 01:22:35.119
He's calling from the factory where they
make metal. Go ahead, anyway,

956
01:22:36.319 --> 01:22:44.079
do you put man? I can't
hear nothing, dude, I can't

957
01:22:44.119 --> 01:22:55.079
hear nothing. Sorry, man,
David, dude out here. He's dude

958
01:22:55.119 --> 01:23:00.520
out here excavating getting iron ore,
trying to trying to argue getting iron ore.

959
01:23:00.720 --> 01:23:04.800
What's up? Man? I just
had a question about the like in

960
01:23:04.960 --> 01:23:12.159
terms of the trinity, about what
about what the trinity? Uh? What

961
01:23:12.279 --> 01:23:15.119
do you What is your response?
When you like do somebody say like they're

962
01:23:15.159 --> 01:23:17.800
one in purpose? There are three
different beings but only one in purpose but

963
01:23:17.960 --> 01:23:25.600
not in like ess. Well,
I would say, look up monarchical trinitarianism.

964
01:23:26.239 --> 01:23:30.479
That's doctor bo Branson's lectures. It's
really really good, necessary approach to

965
01:23:30.960 --> 01:23:34.920
the Trinity that the Orthodox have.
It's very different from most Roman Catholic thought

966
01:23:35.199 --> 01:23:40.079
and Protestant ideas, so that would
be a place to start. But I

967
01:23:40.159 --> 01:23:43.640
mean, I'm not really I can't
really give you a whole Trinity lecture in

968
01:23:43.760 --> 01:23:46.920
terms of like what what all that
is tonight, But I appreciate that you

969
01:23:46.920 --> 01:23:59.359
can go look up his lecture Stan, what's up? Stan? To the

970
01:23:59.439 --> 01:24:00.600
hold on stand and to the people
in the chat. I know it is

971
01:24:00.680 --> 01:24:04.079
not too late to call in if
you want to call. We've only gone

972
01:24:04.159 --> 01:24:08.039
for a couple hours. I'm a
little worn down, but I still got

973
01:24:08.159 --> 01:24:12.359
enough gas in the tank to pull
a full I can be a I can

974
01:24:12.439 --> 01:24:18.600
be a mad mad Max Rakatanski for
a little bit longer. Jamie, could

975
01:24:18.640 --> 01:24:23.439
you make me a double shot so
that I can uh, so all I

976
01:24:23.520 --> 01:24:30.399
could get some fuel on? Go
ahead, man, what's up? He's

977
01:24:30.479 --> 01:24:32.199
going? Jay? Thank you very
much for the work you do. Just

978
01:24:32.279 --> 01:24:36.840
want to say that first. So
I had a question, as it's more

979
01:24:36.840 --> 01:24:42.199
of like a history on Protestantism kind
of thing, wondering if you know the

980
01:24:42.479 --> 01:24:49.760
history of Protestantism in Russia, only
asking because my parents immigrated there. I'll

981
01:24:49.760 --> 01:24:53.880
go ahead and tell you. I
do not know very much about Protestant Russia

982
01:24:53.880 --> 01:24:58.640
at all. All right, well, well thanks anyway, now, I'm

983
01:24:58.640 --> 01:25:01.279
sorry I couldn't help you. I
mean, there there's a plenty of Orthodox

984
01:25:01.319 --> 01:25:05.000
people that are like super duper deep
into history and all kinds of niches of

985
01:25:05.159 --> 01:25:11.359
history. But that's not a feeling
I know anything about. Thank you,

986
01:25:12.119 --> 01:25:17.920
thank you, all the great,
all great. I can't tell what it

987
01:25:17.960 --> 01:25:24.520
says, Alph the Great, Alfred
the Great. Hi, how's it going.

988
01:25:24.880 --> 01:25:28.920
Hey, I've recently looked up something
in Islam and apparently they have like

989
01:25:29.000 --> 01:25:32.880
a bodily resurrection at the end of
time where everybody gets resurrected into bodies.

990
01:25:33.239 --> 01:25:39.840
And I was just wondering, is
this like sort of objective proof of copy

991
01:25:39.920 --> 01:25:48.159
paste from Christianity, like sort of
they've just gone taken it. Well,

992
01:25:50.439 --> 01:25:56.159
I mean I wouldn't say that alone
proved, but I mean, I mean,

993
01:25:56.520 --> 01:25:59.279
you know, we believe Jews believed
in resurrections, so we wouldn't say

994
01:25:59.279 --> 01:26:03.720
the Christianity copied and paste Judaism because
of resurrection. So I wouldn't locate it

995
01:26:04.560 --> 01:26:08.720
just in the idea of resurrection.
I would say, if you look at

996
01:26:08.920 --> 01:26:15.560
like throughout the Qur'an. You have
all these stories people mentioned. Biblical stories

997
01:26:15.600 --> 01:26:20.239
are flipped and mixed up. There's
whole passages of the Gospel of John cited

998
01:26:20.359 --> 01:26:25.359
in the various places of the Quran. The Chrime in Passing mentions the Gospel

999
01:26:25.399 --> 01:26:28.720
of Mark, the Gospel of John, It mentions the Torah in Jeal.

1000
01:26:29.159 --> 01:26:32.600
I mean, so, I think
that other things might point to copy paste,

1001
01:26:33.039 --> 01:26:36.640
but I wouldn't say that resurrection alone
does. I was just sort of

1002
01:26:36.840 --> 01:26:41.920
emphasizing the bodily pot because it sort
of makes no sense if there's no one

1003
01:26:42.000 --> 01:26:45.920
to inherit the entirety of human nature. I think you said it earlier.

1004
01:26:45.000 --> 01:26:47.560
That's what sort of made me go, hang on, that's like sort of

1005
01:26:47.600 --> 01:26:54.880
weird because if it's based on the
fact that Jesus took on every single everyone's

1006
01:26:55.000 --> 01:26:58.600
nature, right, the entirety of
humanity, and that's why everyone gets raised,

1007
01:26:59.199 --> 01:27:01.560
and then if there's no Jesus to
do that in Islam, then why

1008
01:27:01.680 --> 01:27:06.800
is everybody being raised into their own
same physical bodies. Yeah, that's an

1009
01:27:06.840 --> 01:27:14.319
interesting question. I'd be curious why
Jews or Muslims would believe in the universal

1010
01:27:15.119 --> 01:27:17.119
resurrection. That's a good question.
Yeah, and I would sort of point

1011
01:27:17.239 --> 01:27:20.880
back, I guess, because it's
sort of like, we have the explanation

1012
01:27:21.119 --> 01:27:26.159
later on for the for the resurrection, but the Jews have it there.

1013
01:27:26.760 --> 01:27:29.800
I suppose, Yeah, well,
I suppose they would just say, well,

1014
01:27:29.840 --> 01:27:32.720
that's just what God wills, so
he just swills it to be that

1015
01:27:32.800 --> 01:27:35.279
way. But you know, that's
the funny thing though about that, this

1016
01:27:35.439 --> 01:27:40.000
is this is bringing up a point
about the Kuran that I see where you're

1017
01:27:40.000 --> 01:27:44.479
going. Yeah, so many things
in the Qoran that only makes sense in

1018
01:27:44.560 --> 01:27:49.119
the context of the totality of Biblical
revelation, like Messiah can Messiah is a

1019
01:27:49.239 --> 01:27:55.279
Jewish Hebrew term out of the prophecies
of the Hebrews for an anointed one.

1020
01:27:56.199 --> 01:27:59.840
Okay, without the context of the
anointing and the high priest being anointed and

1021
01:27:59.880 --> 01:28:04.359
all that, this idea of Messiah
means absolutely nothing. And in Islam there's

1022
01:28:04.399 --> 01:28:08.840
really no significance or meaning for this
term. So it's a crib and cut

1023
01:28:08.960 --> 01:28:11.159
and paste. And I would say, I say, I would say,

1024
01:28:11.239 --> 01:28:14.560
yeah, you have a great point
here, which is that so many things

1025
01:28:14.720 --> 01:28:19.680
in the Qoran don't have any context
or big picture meaning. They're just mentioned

1026
01:28:20.239 --> 01:28:24.479
and it's like it's like the Ark
of the Covenant. They think it's a

1027
01:28:24.560 --> 01:28:30.079
flying box that had Moses' jewels in
it. I'm serious. And the reason

1028
01:28:30.119 --> 01:28:32.000
they thought it's a flying box is
because they said had wings on it.

1029
01:28:32.680 --> 01:28:36.560
So they didn't even understand that the
wings of the seraphim on the arc doesn't

1030
01:28:36.600 --> 01:28:44.359
mean the box has wings. So
there's so many things. Yeah, there's

1031
01:28:44.359 --> 01:28:46.520
so many things in the Quran.
If you look up Gabriel Side Reynolds's book,

1032
01:28:47.319 --> 01:28:54.000
his book is actually just going through
like ten or fifteen examples of weird

1033
01:28:54.159 --> 01:28:57.319
stories that are in the Quran that
don't make any sense, and they're all

1034
01:28:57.399 --> 01:29:00.680
jumbled up from the Bible. Yeah, thank you very much. No,

1035
01:29:00.840 --> 01:29:05.640
that's actually a great point exactly,
like why are all the human beings resurrected?

1036
01:29:06.039 --> 01:29:10.840
Another point you could make too on
this is well in Islam, like

1037
01:29:10.960 --> 01:29:15.039
how is God dealing with evil?
Right? Because in terms of Christianity,

1038
01:29:15.439 --> 01:29:18.880
it makes sense that there's a body
resurrection and there's an end to evil,

1039
01:29:20.079 --> 01:29:25.319
But like it, what does it
mean in Islam to how is your sin

1040
01:29:25.479 --> 01:29:28.840
dealt with? How are the demons
dealt with? Right? Again, it

1041
01:29:28.920 --> 01:29:32.079
doesn't make sense because in Christianity,
the person of Christ is the christas Victor,

1042
01:29:32.159 --> 01:29:35.840
the conquering one. He's the one
that does this work. And in

1043
01:29:36.119 --> 01:29:40.319
Islam it's just like, oh well
Allah just willed it to be this way.

1044
01:29:41.199 --> 01:29:45.239
Yeah, And I'm pretty sure it
doesn't Islam technically have original sin if

1045
01:29:45.279 --> 01:29:48.199
you go with the Orthodox position of
sin or original sin, because if you

1046
01:29:48.359 --> 01:29:51.960
don't affirm that we have the guilt
about him and it's just about a fall

1047
01:29:53.039 --> 01:29:56.760
in nature. Then the fact that
I guess we are prone to sin,

1048
01:29:57.039 --> 01:30:01.960
which I guess every and sex would
agree with that we're sort of prone to

1049
01:30:02.279 --> 01:30:09.600
sin, and that's at least our
nature. Everybody has inherited that from like

1050
01:30:09.960 --> 01:30:12.960
from their body. I mean,
if you had inbred parents, you sort

1051
01:30:12.960 --> 01:30:15.760
of have them same defects, So
that nature if you corrupt it by iron

1052
01:30:15.840 --> 01:30:18.439
breed, and I guess, yeah, And we see that with a Bora,

1053
01:30:18.680 --> 01:30:24.319
right, we see that in real
time with Eric Burro. Right,

1054
01:30:24.760 --> 01:30:30.319
it was a joke because I don't
know the joke was that I'm saying,

1055
01:30:30.920 --> 01:30:34.600
that's come on, right, I
went right out anyway, though, thank

1056
01:30:34.600 --> 01:30:48.039
you very much for the good questions. Uh huh uh Roman Omen Hello,

1057
01:30:48.920 --> 01:30:54.920
yo, Hey, I don't know
if there's not this is on topic or

1058
01:30:54.960 --> 01:31:00.399
not, but I have a question
about monism and a New Age. Okay,

1059
01:31:01.560 --> 01:31:05.159
my dad is is super into that
stuff. He's all into like,

1060
01:31:05.239 --> 01:31:08.680
oh show, so I got Ru, Abraham Hicks, all all of that

1061
01:31:08.880 --> 01:31:13.159
New New Age, all of that
stuff right, And every single time I

1062
01:31:13.199 --> 01:31:15.800
try to talk to him about Christianity, he's just so used to Western Christianity

1063
01:31:15.840 --> 01:31:19.279
because a prostism. He has no
idea what orthodox he is. And I

1064
01:31:19.319 --> 01:31:26.000
always try to bring up a coherent
reason why, because his whole stick is

1065
01:31:26.079 --> 01:31:29.359
that God is love right, and
I always try to explain him that's not

1066
01:31:29.520 --> 01:31:32.079
it doesn't make any sense because it's
I mean, it's true. I mean,

1067
01:31:32.119 --> 01:31:35.720
he thinks everything is God right.
So I'm trying to explain to him

1068
01:31:35.720 --> 01:31:39.319
that doesn't make any sense, and
that he thinks that all religions are saying

1069
01:31:39.319 --> 01:31:42.960
the exact same thing, but they
all inherently contradict each other. So how

1070
01:31:43.000 --> 01:31:45.960
do I explain to him that you
understand what I'm getting hit? Right?

1071
01:31:46.079 --> 01:31:50.159
Yeah, I would honestly say,
don't worry about trying to argue and debate

1072
01:31:50.239 --> 01:31:55.039
with your dad because if he's not
really you know, unless your dad asks

1073
01:31:55.119 --> 01:31:58.199
you specifically, hey, why do
you think this or what's your answer to

1074
01:31:58.279 --> 01:32:02.960
this. You're never gonna debate or
apologetically convince your parents of something, So

1075
01:32:03.159 --> 01:32:11.479
focus on living a virtuous life and
being in living orthodoxtriciennity, and eventually,

1076
01:32:12.479 --> 01:32:15.159
you know your dad will see that
in you and he'll start asking you questions

1077
01:32:15.159 --> 01:32:19.520
that you will never ever, ever
apologetically debate your parents. Luke, amos,

1078
01:32:25.239 --> 01:32:30.920
go ahead. I'm starting to get
a headache. What's up, Luke?

1079
01:32:35.680 --> 01:32:39.199
Let me read some of these super
chats. Storm of the Cap five

1080
01:32:39.239 --> 01:32:45.119
Dollars. Another thing that can cast
doubt on science is Einstein's relativity. It's

1081
01:32:45.159 --> 01:32:46.439
as bad as evolution, in my
opinion, at least, all kinds of

1082
01:32:46.520 --> 01:32:50.239
contradictions that basically you have to assume
a kind of postmodernism. Yeah, I

1083
01:32:50.279 --> 01:32:56.399
think you could make that critique of
a relativity like it kind of seems like

1084
01:32:56.520 --> 01:33:00.399
it's super speculative, and if it's
true, you know that basically everything's undercut,

1085
01:33:00.479 --> 01:33:03.640
including the principles behind relativity. Storm
of the Cap five Dollars Einstein himself

1086
01:33:03.680 --> 01:33:09.479
and was confronted with self refeting problems
and trying to find a one way speed

1087
01:33:09.520 --> 01:33:12.560
of light. He said, we
can define it as true if we all

1088
01:33:12.600 --> 01:33:15.079
agree it's a social convention and it's
true. Well, that seems ridiculous,

1089
01:33:16.119 --> 01:33:20.640
so I haven't read. I did
read one essay from Einstein about the United

1090
01:33:20.720 --> 01:33:24.640
Nations of the World government, so
that tells me a lot about Einstein.

1091
01:33:25.159 --> 01:33:30.560
Michael the Archangel three dollars do an
impression of Cameron the math Wizard, the

1092
01:33:30.680 --> 01:33:36.840
ever sweet and round Michael Bitch teats
Lofton when they meet Daddy Francis for the

1093
01:33:36.920 --> 01:33:40.840
first time. Well, I'm not
gonna do that for three dollars. That

1094
01:33:41.239 --> 01:33:45.159
requires but yeah, I mean,
if people want to follow the idea that

1095
01:33:45.439 --> 01:33:48.640
there's a Baysian quick books spreadsheet argument
for the papacy, be my guest,

1096
01:33:49.159 --> 01:33:51.760
Sam sue like ten dollars. I
have a simple question, what's the best

1097
01:33:51.760 --> 01:34:00.279
philosophical argument for divine simplicity? I
have Protestants are skeptical. Protestants are skeptical

1098
01:34:00.399 --> 01:34:05.399
divines. Everybody believes in divine simplicity. Who believes in divinity in the Trinity?

1099
01:34:05.640 --> 01:34:10.960
Okay, everybody, even Protestants believe
in divine simplicity. So I'm not

1100
01:34:11.159 --> 01:34:15.079
sure what you mean there. If
you mean like absolutely divine simplicity, that's

1101
01:34:15.159 --> 01:34:20.840
like the traditional Roman Catholic Augustinian position
about defining God according to the Neoplatonic definition

1102
01:34:20.920 --> 01:34:27.600
of what simplicity is, and then
what's stated at the fourth latter In Council

1103
01:34:28.479 --> 01:34:31.720
by the Roman Catholics when they accept
Peter Lombard's definition. So I'm just not

1104
01:34:31.800 --> 01:34:39.840
sure what you mean that there's Protestant
skeptical divine simplicity. Anybody who doesn't believe

1105
01:34:39.840 --> 01:34:45.279
in divine simplicity in any sense would
be a polytheist, because divinity is one.

1106
01:34:45.760 --> 01:34:50.840
It's not composed, it's not acted
upon, it's perfect, it doesn't

1107
01:34:50.840 --> 01:34:55.319
imparts, it's not in time,
it's not in space. Those are all

1108
01:34:55.319 --> 01:34:58.800
the things that we believe about the
divine essence. Gostit's just ten dollars.

1109
01:34:58.880 --> 01:35:01.159
Will you debate biblically? Unitarian?
I mean, he can hop on the

1110
01:35:01.239 --> 01:35:06.000
stream if he wants ten dollars again, gustitious, Will you debate him?

1111
01:35:06.319 --> 01:35:12.000
If not? What are the videos
that refute his position? We did a

1112
01:35:12.279 --> 01:35:17.279
three hour lecture years ago about the
trinity in the Old Testament. Every argument

1113
01:35:17.640 --> 01:35:23.199
debate against Muslims goes, for the
most part Daniel Hikikachu goes into arguing the

1114
01:35:23.279 --> 01:35:29.960
triad from the Old Testament. So
just look up is Jesus divine is the

1115
01:35:30.039 --> 01:35:34.720
Trinity God. That's my talk from
four years ago. Can we get Eric

1116
01:35:34.760 --> 01:35:44.279
Abara at the Golden Corral? Impression? How's that? Luke? Five dollars

1117
01:35:44.359 --> 01:35:46.520
at the world? How the world
do you not have seven hundred thousand subs?

1118
01:35:46.600 --> 01:35:51.680
Hey? That's right exactly? Yo? Can you hear me? Am

1119
01:35:51.720 --> 01:35:58.399
I on yep? I have a
question. So it's about like Mormonism,

1120
01:35:58.479 --> 01:36:01.520
but it's like related to it might
in some way be religio what we're talking

1121
01:36:01.520 --> 01:36:03.520
about today? Can I ask it? Or is that too much on it?

1122
01:36:03.800 --> 01:36:06.960
Right? So I was talking to
some Mormons the other day and they

1123
01:36:08.000 --> 01:36:12.039
were telling me that they don't actually
believe in like a prior god to the

1124
01:36:12.119 --> 01:36:15.680
Father and like he some of them
were saying, like he exalted himself.

1125
01:36:15.800 --> 01:36:19.359
And then we started talking and they
were talking about like creatio x like materia

1126
01:36:19.439 --> 01:36:23.880
and how it's like necessitated, and
then they were telling me that like there's

1127
01:36:24.000 --> 01:36:30.359
like this uncreated super material that like
they like he like he derives logic from

1128
01:36:30.399 --> 01:36:33.520
that material, but it's like impersonal, but then it like listens to him

1129
01:36:33.600 --> 01:36:35.760
because it loves him. Like I
don't know if he knew anything about that

1130
01:36:35.800 --> 01:36:39.279
it was just Wow, this sounds
wild. It sounds like this sounds like

1131
01:36:39.399 --> 01:36:43.239
like an Aristotelian hellenic view. Well, I think it was like weird new

1132
01:36:43.359 --> 01:36:46.439
Platonic stuff they were talking about too. It didn't make any sense, so

1133
01:36:46.479 --> 01:36:49.720
I asked as like in their weird
version of like, uh, well it

1134
01:36:49.800 --> 01:36:54.560
makes that would make Actually actually that
wasn't would make sense because Platonis is trying

1135
01:36:54.600 --> 01:36:59.119
to reconcile Plato and Aristotle, so
that wouldn't make sense. Yeah, But

1136
01:36:59.399 --> 01:37:03.319
what they said was is that like
the material. And I was questioning him.

1137
01:37:03.359 --> 01:37:06.479
I was like, so he derives
his logic from the material. And

1138
01:37:06.479 --> 01:37:09.439
then and then they were getting on
Matt, so I was like, he's

1139
01:37:09.439 --> 01:37:14.239
so is he does he submit to
the impersonal material? Yeah? So this

1140
01:37:14.359 --> 01:37:16.920
is panism so but yeah, exactly, they were like, so there's this

1141
01:37:17.119 --> 01:37:25.439
uncreated super material that and there's also
like this uh like logic that he follows.

1142
01:37:25.479 --> 01:37:27.600
So I was like, is this
like pseudo deism? And they were

1143
01:37:27.680 --> 01:37:31.720
like, because he like submits to
the logic, but it but they like

1144
01:37:31.880 --> 01:37:35.560
exist co substantial, so they like
have the same will as each other.

1145
01:37:35.600 --> 01:37:39.000
And he said that and then he
told me that this is if you read

1146
01:37:39.119 --> 01:37:44.720
uh Basil's hexamarn too. This is
where Basil starts critiquing Aristotle's diet. This

1147
01:37:44.800 --> 01:37:48.840
sounds exactly like the material is conscious, so it is a person. And

1148
01:37:49.279 --> 01:37:54.960
when you formed, he forms that
material into new gods or something. That's

1149
01:37:54.960 --> 01:37:59.079
what he said. He said,
the material is ultimately conscious, this uncreated

1150
01:37:59.159 --> 01:38:02.119
material, and it and he and
it loves him, and he loves it,

1151
01:38:02.399 --> 01:38:05.479
and so when he speaks his word, the material, out of love

1152
01:38:05.560 --> 01:38:10.880
for him, responds and then creates. I was like, what in the

1153
01:38:10.960 --> 01:38:15.399
world, Yeah, that's crazy.
Well I would I would guess that maybe

1154
01:38:15.439 --> 01:38:17.720
they're kind of all over the place, you know what I mean, Like

1155
01:38:19.800 --> 01:38:25.279
I remember reading that, like there's
I remember reading in an old Mormon website

1156
01:38:25.279 --> 01:38:30.119
where they had some of the sermons
of like Brigham and Joseph Smith, and

1157
01:38:30.279 --> 01:38:32.840
like sometimes they would sound like they're
Unitarian, and then sometimes they would sound

1158
01:38:32.920 --> 01:38:38.640
like they're Polytheis, and then sometimes
they would sound like they're Trinitarians. So

1159
01:38:38.640 --> 01:38:41.399
I would imagine they're kind of all
over the place. Well, I kept

1160
01:38:41.520 --> 01:38:44.079
asking him, I was like,
like, what do you what do you

1161
01:38:44.159 --> 01:38:45.039
think about this? And he's like, well, the church doesn't have a

1162
01:38:45.119 --> 01:38:48.359
direct statement on this. So the
church never directly said that there was a

1163
01:38:48.439 --> 01:38:51.079
God before the Father, so we're
just going to say there wasn't and he

1164
01:38:51.239 --> 01:38:56.680
like exalted himself from a human form. It was so weird. Yeah,

1165
01:38:56.720 --> 01:39:01.159
that's crazy. Now there I need
to get They have a one guy who's

1166
01:39:01.199 --> 01:39:08.680
a systematic theologian of Talmadge, but
I'm trying to find his systematic theology,

1167
01:39:08.840 --> 01:39:12.800
so that would probably be one of
the better routes to go. But yeah,

1168
01:39:12.840 --> 01:39:20.159
I appreciate that this sone's pretty nutty. Let's see what is that,

1169
01:39:20.279 --> 01:39:25.479
guys, because he might know the
Mormon there used to only be like one

1170
01:39:25.560 --> 01:39:30.600
Mormon systematic theology and it was by
this Talmage dude. And I know that

1171
01:39:30.840 --> 01:39:36.680
because like fifteen years ago I was
going to debate Justin Hart, who was

1172
01:39:36.800 --> 01:39:44.960
Mitt Romney's faith and values person.
Oh I found it. It's the systematic

1173
01:39:45.119 --> 01:39:49.159
theology of Jeff Warren. You mean
Warren Jeffs. You mean Warren Jeffs.

1174
01:39:50.119 --> 01:39:57.399
Because that's the traditional Latin right Mormonism. That's the traditional Latin Mormon right,

1175
01:39:57.720 --> 01:40:02.039
which believes in you know, like
extreme beliemy. But you got to turn

1176
01:40:02.079 --> 01:40:05.039
them into prairie muffins, like they
got to look like they got to look

1177
01:40:05.119 --> 01:40:15.239
like eighteen hundreds. Aiden, what's
up? Aiden? Go ahead, Aiden,

1178
01:40:21.680 --> 01:40:26.640
what's up? Oh? Sorry about
that. Hey, j I'm an

1179
01:40:26.680 --> 01:40:30.199
inquirer in the church. I'm a
former Joba witness, So I just have

1180
01:40:30.319 --> 01:40:35.079
a couple of questions on a millennialism
and then a quick question on the Trinity.

1181
01:40:36.399 --> 01:40:41.720
Okay, so you know, obviously, you know, growing up like

1182
01:40:42.119 --> 01:40:46.239
a witness, the whole point of
the faith is really just that we're living

1183
01:40:46.319 --> 01:40:51.680
in the last Stays and that all
these things are going to happen, like

1184
01:40:51.760 --> 01:40:57.279
the world governments are going to start
persecuting false religion and then only Jovah's witnesses

1185
01:40:57.279 --> 01:41:00.560
will be left as the only standing
religion, and then Jesus Christ is going

1186
01:41:00.600 --> 01:41:03.319
to come back with one hundred and
forty four thousand. So I just didn't

1187
01:41:03.399 --> 01:41:08.560
know if the church has, you
know, the Orthodox Church has an explanation

1188
01:41:08.680 --> 01:41:11.399
as to what the one hundred and
forty four thousand are. And then if

1189
01:41:11.399 --> 01:41:16.479
there's going to be like some crazy
events that happened prior to Christ coming back,

1190
01:41:18.159 --> 01:41:24.680
yeah, I would say get a
book, like I think one of

1191
01:41:24.720 --> 01:41:30.960
the elders has a commentary on the
Book of Revelation. But I probably said

1192
01:41:30.960 --> 01:41:34.600
that at this stage, probably the
best commentary in Revelation would be Peter Leithheart's

1193
01:41:34.600 --> 01:41:41.039
two volume commentary. My godfather is
presently writing a commentary on the Book of

1194
01:41:41.079 --> 01:41:45.279
Revelation Dean Arnold, which will be
good, and also David Chilton's commentary on

1195
01:41:45.319 --> 01:41:48.720
the Book of Revelation is really good, so I would probably agree with with

1196
01:41:49.720 --> 01:41:55.600
either Chiltern or Lighthearts. My godfather
will also, I think probably. I

1197
01:41:55.680 --> 01:41:58.399
mean, he knows he's read all
those all the ones that we've mentioned,

1198
01:41:58.439 --> 01:42:00.840
so it's going to be a really
good work when he's it done. So

1199
01:42:00.880 --> 01:42:06.279
I'm gonna I'll probably be defaulting to
Deans when it gets written, because he

1200
01:42:06.600 --> 01:42:12.760
really wants to reconcile kind of all
of these all these topics. But Scott,

1201
01:42:12.840 --> 01:42:24.119
what's up, Scott, hey,
Jack, can you hear me?

1202
01:42:24.239 --> 01:42:29.359
Yes, sir hey. So recently
I was having a debate with a Roman

1203
01:42:29.479 --> 01:42:35.680
Catholic on purgatory and he brought up
Matthew twelve thirty two, which essentially states

1204
01:42:35.720 --> 01:42:43.840
that whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, yeah, we'll have a yeah,

1205
01:42:44.680 --> 01:42:47.800
right, which presumes that sins can
be forgiven after death, and Orthodox believe

1206
01:42:47.840 --> 01:42:53.520
that too. But that isn't prepurgatory, okay, And what would be like

1207
01:42:53.640 --> 01:42:58.800
the Orthodox do essentially right, So
purgatory is the idea that there's a created

1208
01:42:58.920 --> 01:43:02.479
fire that tore you to pay for
the temporal punishments that you owe to God.

1209
01:43:03.239 --> 01:43:09.439
And you don't see anything like this
notion of a gigantic temporal debt scheme

1210
01:43:10.039 --> 01:43:13.760
where God's holding you liable to all
this that you have to pay off in

1211
01:43:13.800 --> 01:43:18.560
the afterlife. And it's all really
this deviation from the early Church's canonical penances.

1212
01:43:18.880 --> 01:43:21.720
So the idea is that if you
committed a certain sin, you would

1213
01:43:21.760 --> 01:43:26.239
be banned from the Eucharist in the
very early Church for a certain amount of

1214
01:43:26.279 --> 01:43:29.239
time. And so the idea was
that, well, if you committed a

1215
01:43:29.279 --> 01:43:31.479
bunch of sins and this would be
stacked up. And so God's basically stacking

1216
01:43:31.520 --> 01:43:38.000
this up like a being counter and
then he's punishing you with a created fire,

1217
01:43:38.159 --> 01:43:41.720
which I don't know how his soul's
burned by creative fire. But and

1218
01:43:41.800 --> 01:43:44.880
then when you pay that all off, you can go to heaven again.

1219
01:43:45.319 --> 01:43:48.600
Nothing like this in the early Church. The statements about being purged by Paul

1220
01:43:49.119 --> 01:43:53.880
are people in the church being purged, having their works tested at the Last

1221
01:43:53.960 --> 01:43:59.159
Day Judgment, Paul says very clearly
that God is a consuming fire. And

1222
01:43:59.199 --> 01:44:01.880
so when Saint Mark Mephesis, if
you read his Homilies against Purgatory, when

1223
01:44:01.920 --> 01:44:05.840
he when he rejects this, part
of the reason that's that it's rejected is

1224
01:44:05.920 --> 01:44:11.359
that there's no created God. God
doesn't have a created fire. God is

1225
01:44:11.439 --> 01:44:14.399
a consuming fire, and so the
uncreated energies are the fire of God.

1226
01:44:14.680 --> 01:44:16.720
So there's no this thing as created
fire. It's all just pagan silliness.

1227
01:44:18.760 --> 01:44:24.600
And then what exactly is like the
Orthodox view of like when you go into

1228
01:44:24.600 --> 01:44:27.680
the after life, like people praying
to you, Like, how exactly does

1229
01:44:27.760 --> 01:44:32.119
that process work in Orthodoxy? Right? So prayers for the dead help and

1230
01:44:32.239 --> 01:44:35.279
aid those You could read the soul
life of the soul after death by Father

1231
01:44:35.359 --> 01:44:39.800
sur from Rose, but that's not
really tonight's topics. So rum catal,

1232
01:44:39.880 --> 01:44:43.199
I know that's kind of purgatory is
relevant, but we're not doing Orthodox after

1233
01:44:43.319 --> 01:44:47.640
life tonight. We're doing Catholic staff, Libertarianism, protestantsm blacky Beers, Arians,

1234
01:44:47.880 --> 01:44:51.640
Muslims, Joe's Witnesses, Mormons,
all of those are on the topic.

1235
01:44:51.880 --> 01:44:56.520
Guys, If you don't if that's
not the topics. Please don't bring

1236
01:44:56.800 --> 01:44:59.600
I'm not mad. I'm just saying, like, that's not the John Ronald's,

1237
01:45:00.199 --> 01:45:03.359
Ronald Donald, the rdds, the
ron Donald duce and ron Donald does.

1238
01:45:04.600 --> 01:45:12.359
Very few will get that reference,
can you hear me? Yeah?

1239
01:45:12.399 --> 01:45:16.600
I wanted to ask specifically about filio
quid and how we see references of it

1240
01:45:16.720 --> 01:45:24.399
in sixth century, which is usually
what Catholics use to justify it. Well,

1241
01:45:24.479 --> 01:45:28.880
I mean depends on what you mean
by the references, Like what specifically,

1242
01:45:29.560 --> 01:45:32.520
because because a lot of times these
are these are texts about economia or

1243
01:45:32.560 --> 01:45:38.199
their texts that can be eternal manifestation, they don't necessarily have to be eternal

1244
01:45:38.279 --> 01:45:43.520
double hypostatic procession. Yeah, I'm
like, not specifically, but something that

1245
01:45:44.199 --> 01:45:49.399
I guess sort of references it,
or maybe something even like Saint Augustine's references

1246
01:45:50.079 --> 01:45:55.760
to like I guess some people call
it predestination, uh huh? And what

1247
01:45:56.279 --> 01:46:01.600
about it? And like, I
guess a little wisdom. Christianity is like

1248
01:46:01.720 --> 01:46:08.520
based on Augustin's ideas, absolutely sure, so like, what what do you

1249
01:46:08.560 --> 01:46:13.960
think of that? Well? The
Orthodox Church did not accept the totality of

1250
01:46:14.000 --> 01:46:18.920
Augustinian theology as it's representative mindset.
It chose the Cappa Docians their view of

1251
01:46:18.960 --> 01:46:23.680
the Trinity at concept at double one, not the Augustinian view. So really

1252
01:46:24.479 --> 01:46:27.439
we don't have to even go too
deep into that. Not dissing you for

1253
01:46:27.520 --> 01:46:30.880
that question. It's a good question, but all we have to do really

1254
01:46:30.000 --> 01:46:34.520
is look at concept and numble one, accepting the Cappadocian model of the Trinity

1255
01:46:34.960 --> 01:46:44.159
and not the Augustinian model. End
of the debate. Okay, man in

1256
01:46:44.239 --> 01:46:46.119
the in the camos, you want
to try again. Now that you're back,

1257
01:46:49.199 --> 01:46:57.039
I'm looking at the man in the
camera. Oh yeah, can you

1258
01:46:57.079 --> 01:47:00.199
hear me? Yeah, okay,
perfect, Sorry about earlier. I'm not

1259
01:47:00.279 --> 01:47:04.640
sure why I was cutting in out
and then right afterwards, Uh you go

1260
01:47:04.720 --> 01:47:09.960
ahead, go ahead. Uh yeah, So I was going to have some

1261
01:47:10.119 --> 01:47:14.319
questions about Catholicism, but uh uh
you pretty much answered him already some other

1262
01:47:14.439 --> 01:47:18.159
persons that already asked. So my
questions are like, can I talk about

1263
01:47:18.159 --> 01:47:29.000
a little bit about Protestant Protestantism and
uh, libertarianism. Yeah yeah. I

1264
01:47:29.079 --> 01:47:31.680
wasn't sure if you want to do
multiple at the same time or not.

1265
01:47:32.399 --> 01:47:35.960
But anyway, first one is uh, you know, I was kind of

1266
01:47:36.039 --> 01:47:41.319
like in a discussion with a Protestant
and we were talking about the Saint Peter's

1267
01:47:41.359 --> 01:47:43.680
cross or something like that. But
he was like telling me, like,

1268
01:47:43.760 --> 01:47:45.119
you know, oh no, it's
not just I'm thinking he's a Protestant.

1269
01:47:45.880 --> 01:47:47.920
But he was like, oh no, it's not Saint Peter. It's just

1270
01:47:48.000 --> 01:47:50.920
Peter. You just call him Peter, you know. So I just I

1271
01:47:51.039 --> 01:47:54.960
was like, well, he became
a same because he died in Christ,

1272
01:47:55.039 --> 01:47:57.439
you know, and all that.
And I showed him verses about it,

1273
01:47:57.520 --> 01:47:59.359
you know, in the Bible,
you know, saying like the same tool

1274
01:47:59.399 --> 01:48:01.199
inherit the Kingdom and all that.
But he says, like, you know,

1275
01:48:01.640 --> 01:48:03.840
he's like, nothing in the Bible
says that you've become a sing when

1276
01:48:03.880 --> 01:48:06.920
you die or whatever. So I
want to see what your thoughts on that

1277
01:48:08.159 --> 01:48:15.000
was. Well, I mean,
the New Testament does talk about the Saints

1278
01:48:15.159 --> 01:48:18.960
many times over in Paul's epistles.
Paul writes to the Saints at Epicus and

1279
01:48:19.039 --> 01:48:23.960
so forth. So it's just a
tradition in the Church that people who lived

1280
01:48:23.960 --> 01:48:30.319
exemplary holy lives are honored in that
way because they manifest the theosis and the

1281
01:48:30.399 --> 01:48:35.680
uncreated grace that they were partaking of. So anyway, Number one, what's

1282
01:48:35.760 --> 01:48:44.039
up? Joan Vandershoot for three dollars, says you should have a floating window

1283
01:48:44.079 --> 01:48:47.479
of the topics people always call in
off topic. Should have dancing lights in

1284
01:48:47.520 --> 01:48:53.680
flamingos. I mean it's listed in
the top of the you know, the

1285
01:48:53.840 --> 01:48:58.479
the Twitter space. But I appreciate
that. John Shawn ten dollars. Well,

1286
01:48:58.479 --> 01:49:01.800
the libertarians and atheists actually have the
same reality check that Richard Dawkins recently

1287
01:49:01.880 --> 01:49:05.800
did. It's hard to say.
I mean a lot of people have,

1288
01:49:08.560 --> 01:49:13.439
you know. I think in general, humans have a religious commitment to whatever

1289
01:49:13.520 --> 01:49:16.920
the worldview is, even if they're
totally irreligious. The way humans operate,

1290
01:49:17.239 --> 01:49:23.880
we have a religious commitment just fundamentally. So kind of think it's almost like

1291
01:49:24.760 --> 01:49:29.640
everybody's in a cult until we find
the truth. Junior Gallo two hundred dollars.

1292
01:49:29.720 --> 01:49:32.000
Wow, big fat super chat.
Really appreciate that you made the whole

1293
01:49:32.039 --> 01:49:38.640
evening tonight, Junior Gallo, so
much megaprops to you for that huge super

1294
01:49:38.760 --> 01:49:43.760
chat. Sincere hypocrite three dollars.
There are no oughts in a world that

1295
01:49:43.880 --> 01:49:49.239
lacks Tello's correct except for nap and
my freedoms. Yeah, I think we

1296
01:49:49.319 --> 01:49:53.039
saw at the beginning of this chat
that the you know, sort of just

1297
01:49:54.039 --> 01:49:58.920
just reasserting the libertarian position without giving
an account for it is kind of a

1298
01:49:59.000 --> 01:50:02.960
weak position. How come everybody that
debates you doesn't understand the questions that you're

1299
01:50:03.000 --> 01:50:09.079
asking. It's also tire someone you
pre sub them. Well, I think

1300
01:50:09.119 --> 01:50:12.720
people aren't used to and they're not
familiar with what it means to give an

1301
01:50:12.760 --> 01:50:15.439
account for a position. They think
that means just restating it or telling a

1302
01:50:15.520 --> 01:50:19.439
story, or telling the psychological motivations
as to why they believe it. You

1303
01:50:19.600 --> 01:50:25.119
know, we're asking for the good
reasons to believe or to not believe this

1304
01:50:25.319 --> 01:50:30.319
or that position, and people just
don't know what that means. So definitely

1305
01:50:30.359 --> 01:50:32.239
a one dollar I'm not trying to
ran on a little bird's parade. Maybe

1306
01:50:32.279 --> 01:50:40.720
you should figure out what the sex
goat issue is when we try to set

1307
01:50:40.800 --> 01:50:45.760
up our libertarian communes. I mean, it's a pretty common critique of libertarian

1308
01:50:45.760 --> 01:50:47.760
isn't that's gone around? I mean
it used to be, like seven years

1309
01:50:47.800 --> 01:50:51.199
ago, the critique was, is
it okay for me to do whatever I

1310
01:50:51.319 --> 01:50:56.960
want? Cowitus wise with a sex
with a cat carcass. That was the

1311
01:50:57.239 --> 01:51:00.439
way it was framed seven or eight
years ago, and then libertarians just kind

1312
01:51:00.439 --> 01:51:04.439
of sit there and I guess if
you want. But actually, if you

1313
01:51:04.479 --> 01:51:08.399
go back to my cokesh debate,
I said, is it wrong for me

1314
01:51:08.520 --> 01:51:14.640
on my private property to erect giant
billboards of the most horrendous prawn? Oh?

1315
01:51:15.359 --> 01:51:16.760
Yeah, exactly how do we handle
that? I don't know, far

1316
01:51:16.920 --> 01:51:19.880
hulb for ten dollars. I don't
know how you how to join the call.

1317
01:51:20.039 --> 01:51:25.000
You call it the Twitter man Twitter
space. It's linked in the show

1318
01:51:25.039 --> 01:51:28.600
description and it's been linked in the
chat probably one hundred times. But I

1319
01:51:28.680 --> 01:51:31.640
have a question regarding the universe.
Can you point me the direction of something

1320
01:51:31.840 --> 01:51:39.159
on cosmology from the church and enlightening
other scientific stuff. I love your stuff.

1321
01:51:41.840 --> 01:51:45.119
I don't think we have a set
opinion on cosmology. So you know,

1322
01:51:45.239 --> 01:51:49.199
the focus of the Bible and orthodox
theology is the things that relate to

1323
01:51:49.319 --> 01:51:53.720
God and then the things that relate
to the natural world. I mean,

1324
01:51:53.760 --> 01:51:57.159
we have a few we have some
things to say about that, but I

1325
01:51:57.199 --> 01:52:02.319
don't think we're wedded to any like
specific view of physics or cosmology. Unless

1326
01:52:02.439 --> 01:52:10.079
the view of physics or cosmology interferes
with the theology. You know, I'm

1327
01:52:10.159 --> 01:52:13.640
just not sure. I'm not training
that you could probably look at. Doctor

1328
01:52:14.079 --> 01:52:16.119
Bradshaw has a degree in physics,
so he would probably be better for that.

1329
01:52:16.399 --> 01:52:20.199
Somebody did just point me to a
book that doctor Bradshaw I think wrote

1330
01:52:20.239 --> 01:52:25.159
the opening four and I I haven't
read the book yet. I ordered it

1331
01:52:25.760 --> 01:52:32.279
and it's some a physicist who wrote
a book about energy, energy and physics

1332
01:52:32.319 --> 01:52:38.399
from an orthodox perspective. Sounds really
fascinating. But maybe that would be something

1333
01:52:38.520 --> 01:52:42.640
that you would want to look at
in that direction, But I'm not training

1334
01:52:42.720 --> 01:52:45.279
those topics. Five dollars five says
for five dollars you have any information on

1335
01:52:45.319 --> 01:52:48.800
the Trail of Blood. Yeah,
it's a crazy cult. Ideology is completely

1336
01:52:48.880 --> 01:52:55.600
ridiculous. There's no there's no Baptist
secret Baptist tradition. If you read Look

1337
01:52:55.600 --> 01:52:59.279
at the Trail of Blood, their
list of the Baptist saints going back to

1338
01:52:59.439 --> 01:53:02.399
John the bapt just as a bunch
of anti Trinitarian cults. So it's a

1339
01:53:02.439 --> 01:53:06.319
completely ridiculous book. Sean ten dollars, Hey may for some reason, I

1340
01:53:06.439 --> 01:53:10.920
watched an old episode with you and
Benny Wills from five years ago. It

1341
01:53:11.000 --> 01:53:15.880
was great, you were wild.
Thank you be cool to see Bennie back

1342
01:53:15.920 --> 01:53:20.560
on. Yeah, but Jamie just
said a an interview with Benny Wills a

1343
01:53:20.560 --> 01:53:26.359
couple of months ago on her channel. Yeah. I like Bennie and I

1344
01:53:26.439 --> 01:53:28.840
haven't really talked to him as well. Know what he's up to. Paranoid

1345
01:53:28.920 --> 01:53:33.520
Joe ten dollars, Thank you,
Christen five dollars. Please consider raiding Father

1346
01:53:33.680 --> 01:53:39.800
McHale when you wrap up. Okay, thank you for the stream, all

1347
01:53:39.920 --> 01:53:45.520
right, appreciate that. Emmett three
dollars. When you were studying Calvinis and

1348
01:53:45.640 --> 01:53:48.720
went to Rome, did you have
to throw away tag? I was really

1349
01:53:48.800 --> 01:53:51.520
unclear about that for a long time. I thought for a long time maybe

1350
01:53:51.600 --> 01:53:56.439
I could be a pre suck Catholic, and then I just threw it away

1351
01:53:56.479 --> 01:54:00.600
because I thought, well, I'm
going to submit to you know, and

1352
01:54:00.720 --> 01:54:10.600
you know my assumption was if Thomas
Aquinas and the Roman cows like doctors of

1353
01:54:10.720 --> 01:54:13.920
the church, if they didn't see
it, then I probably am not onto

1354
01:54:13.960 --> 01:54:25.079
anything new. But so good question, narrow path. What's up? I'm

1355
01:54:25.119 --> 01:54:27.760
sorry number number one? You were
next? Did you want to speak?

1356
01:54:27.880 --> 01:54:33.079
Go to humute? Can you hear
me? Uh huh? What's up?

1357
01:54:34.520 --> 01:54:42.800
Jay? J J. I just
think it's hilarious when people do that.

1358
01:54:42.960 --> 01:54:48.000
It's like over and over man.
Uh So I am newly chrismated Orthodox,

1359
01:54:48.039 --> 01:54:54.960
I guess probably about eight months ago, and uh still I'm trying to lay

1360
01:54:55.039 --> 01:54:59.279
off talking to uh like, Protestant
family and friends as much as whenever I

1361
01:54:59.359 --> 01:55:02.800
first started, because it very quickly
becomes like a like just not worth it,

1362
01:55:03.479 --> 01:55:06.880
And so trying to practice that.
Every once in a while, I

1363
01:55:06.960 --> 01:55:11.600
still get into some discussions and often
it comes up the idea of like,

1364
01:55:12.159 --> 01:55:15.800
I know it's not as simple as
well, the Orthodox Church hasn't changed in

1365
01:55:15.239 --> 01:55:20.720
two thousand years. But whenever those
types of whenever the conversation gets to that

1366
01:55:20.840 --> 01:55:27.399
point, they'll they'll often kind of
talk about things that have changed and then

1367
01:55:27.479 --> 01:55:30.720
call them innovations and say like why
is that different from the Roman Catholic Church,

1368
01:55:30.800 --> 01:55:33.000
or why is that different from all
of these other things? So how

1369
01:55:33.039 --> 01:55:36.560
would you, I guess, frame
that in a way that makes it so

1370
01:55:36.680 --> 01:55:42.479
that you're like, makes it make
sense? Makes what exactly makes sense?

1371
01:55:44.000 --> 01:55:47.680
Like? So the Orthodox Church?
It's what I've heard other people say that

1372
01:55:47.880 --> 01:55:51.079
kind of makes sense to me.
Is that the same way that a fire

1373
01:55:51.159 --> 01:55:55.800
and a fireplace in one sense it
doesn't change because it's still in the fireplace.

1374
01:55:55.880 --> 01:55:58.079
It's still doing what it's supposed to
do. It's not out in the

1375
01:55:58.159 --> 01:56:01.279
house. But it is constantly changing
in another sense, because that's the nature

1376
01:56:01.319 --> 01:56:04.840
of fire. And so in the
same way like humans and the human part

1377
01:56:04.920 --> 01:56:10.399
of the Church is constantly changing,
and there's developments, but that's not the

1378
01:56:10.479 --> 01:56:15.880
same as like innovations in theology and
things like that. You know, Yeah,

1379
01:56:15.880 --> 01:56:18.279
I mean, I find it difficult
to explain that. Yeah, I

1380
01:56:18.359 --> 01:56:23.600
just would out of hand reject the
idea that dogma develops or changes. So

1381
01:56:23.720 --> 01:56:27.479
the explication of something is not the
same thing as it changing. So we

1382
01:56:27.520 --> 01:56:30.920
would say that the totality of the
faith is present in the first, second,

1383
01:56:30.960 --> 01:56:35.159
third century. There's nothing new that's
being added other than terms that make

1384
01:56:35.279 --> 01:56:40.760
things more clear, more precise.
So, in other words, in hypostatizes,

1385
01:56:40.800 --> 01:56:44.319
dogmatize the Fifth Council, it's not
used in the second or third century,

1386
01:56:44.560 --> 01:56:46.199
but it doesn't matter, because the
idea is there, or what that

1387
01:56:46.399 --> 01:56:50.720
is expressing is implicitly there, just
like the word Trinity isn't the Old Testament.

1388
01:56:51.000 --> 01:56:54.760
Yet they have the same faith as
we do, according to Hebrews eleven.

1389
01:56:54.920 --> 01:57:00.159
So I guess I'm just not understanding
like where the disconnect is, Like

1390
01:57:00.199 --> 01:57:03.239
why why do they even think that
it's changed? What's even changing? What?

1391
01:57:03.399 --> 01:57:09.199
I don't understand any anything that would
be different, like liturgy, Uh,

1392
01:57:09.439 --> 01:57:12.479
I guess evolving. If if you
could call it that or whatever whatever

1393
01:57:12.520 --> 01:57:16.319
they had before John Crossostom's liturgy,
why would they change it to this,

1394
01:57:16.439 --> 01:57:19.880
that and the other. I think
it's hard to see. I guess it's

1395
01:57:19.960 --> 01:57:24.880
more it comes boils down to nuance
and inability to Yeah. I would say

1396
01:57:24.920 --> 01:57:29.560
that the fundamental components of the liturgy
are there from the beginning. It doesn't

1397
01:57:29.560 --> 01:57:32.680
It doesn't change. Yeah, now, there might be there might be certain

1398
01:57:33.119 --> 01:57:39.039
like lower T tradition that not not
capital T tradition. You know that like

1399
01:57:39.159 --> 01:57:43.359
Russians do this at this point or
other people do that, but that those

1400
01:57:43.399 --> 01:57:47.199
are things that are not essential to
the liturgy. There are liturgical essentials that

1401
01:57:47.279 --> 01:57:53.359
are common amongst the different rights,
so to speak. But that doesn't mean

1402
01:57:53.439 --> 01:57:58.640
that the essence of that is changing. Okay, yeah, no, that

1403
01:57:58.760 --> 01:58:02.680
helps you know. The nicing Creed
doesn't exist in the second century. That

1404
01:58:02.720 --> 01:58:09.359
doesn't mean that the faith developed and
evolved so that you could have the nicing

1405
01:58:09.439 --> 01:58:13.399
creed. It's no different. We
don't want to be antiquarians too, because

1406
01:58:13.439 --> 01:58:17.399
you actually see one of the problems
with the Orientals and why they went in

1407
01:58:17.439 --> 01:58:24.720
the heresy was trying to be locked
in, for example, into a language

1408
01:58:25.960 --> 01:58:31.079
in concepts. They couldn't develop the
words to address some kind of issues that

1409
01:58:31.239 --> 01:58:36.720
came up. So we're definitely not
antiquarians. But like Jay said, obviously

1410
01:58:36.840 --> 01:58:44.479
the dogma the essentials don't change.
Yeah, exactly, I think he stated

1411
01:58:44.800 --> 01:58:47.439
the father deacon there made the point
you're trying to make that. Okay,

1412
01:58:47.479 --> 01:58:53.199
there's certain things that are like new
to that generation, right, the second

1413
01:58:53.279 --> 01:58:58.800
century didn't have the niceno Constanpolitan creed. Yeah, yeah, that makes sense.

1414
01:58:58.840 --> 01:59:03.000
I guess when ever, I've or
past instances, I guess it's difficult

1415
01:59:03.039 --> 01:59:06.760
to articulate in a compelling way that
doesn't just sound defensive or doesn't just sound

1416
01:59:06.840 --> 01:59:10.840
like I'm like changing the goalposts or
something like that. So yeah, I

1417
01:59:10.880 --> 01:59:15.000
guess I just need to work on
that. But also, just last second,

1418
01:59:15.079 --> 01:59:19.399
here shameless plug doing a podcast.
We got a hundred subscribers. Curse

1419
01:59:19.479 --> 01:59:24.920
World Problems Orthodox adjacent, but more
more so, we're just clowning around we're

1420
01:59:25.039 --> 01:59:28.000
a couple of clowns that do comedy
and stuff like that. So if you

1421
01:59:28.079 --> 01:59:30.600
want to check it out, to
be a massive honor and anybody else who's

1422
01:59:30.640 --> 01:59:32.840
listening. We don't know how else
to grow it, but we're I think

1423
01:59:32.840 --> 01:59:35.359
we're doing well. We got like
seven episodes out, So thanks for your

1424
01:59:35.399 --> 01:59:45.199
time, all right, and that
is a narrow path, enjoyer Rock Barcelos.

1425
01:59:58.119 --> 02:00:15.039
Yeah, I'm mute, I'm you, I'm you. Hello, it's

1426
02:00:15.319 --> 02:00:25.560
it's it's for me. What's up? Sorry? Sorry? So regarding libertarian

1427
02:00:25.920 --> 02:00:31.479
libertarianism, would you say that perhaps, uh, in the at least in

1428
02:00:31.600 --> 02:00:43.640
the regarding ethics the forced association part
of the criticism of libertarian ethics, which

1429
02:00:43.720 --> 02:00:49.680
is said they have a case there
or not for what the association? The

1430
02:00:49.960 --> 02:00:59.239
forced association, like the criticism on
forced association, that the state forces you

1431
02:00:59.760 --> 02:01:06.399
to to associate. Right, I
think I think that there's a case there

1432
02:01:06.520 --> 02:01:14.119
to be made the ethics, But
I don't know what do you think there?

1433
02:01:15.960 --> 02:01:20.039
You're saying, is it wrong for
the state to force associations? Is

1434
02:01:20.079 --> 02:01:26.279
that what you're saying? Yeah?
Yeah, Like for example, like a

1435
02:01:26.439 --> 02:01:31.399
society, right, a society in
order to be a society has to be

1436
02:01:32.479 --> 02:01:39.479
a voluntary wouldn't wouldn't you agree,
Well, that's one of those assumptions that

1437
02:01:39.560 --> 02:01:42.680
they have. But how do we
know that that's the case. How do

1438
02:01:42.760 --> 02:01:45.319
we know that that's the case.
Why should we think that? Right?

1439
02:01:46.199 --> 02:01:49.000
I mean, are you voluntarily a
member of a family or are you born

1440
02:01:49.039 --> 02:01:55.840
into one? Right? In that
case, you are just born there?

1441
02:01:56.079 --> 02:02:00.159
Right of course? Well, I
mean don't Milton free men and certain members

1442
02:02:00.479 --> 02:02:09.159
say that that's like trampling of liberty. It's like a collective right, like

1443
02:02:09.279 --> 02:02:14.399
a baby's a parasite on the mom
right, right. But in the case

1444
02:02:14.520 --> 02:02:20.199
of well, if if a person
is just born, is just born in

1445
02:02:20.600 --> 02:02:26.319
that in there? The person doesn't
have a choice of course? Yeah?

1446
02:02:26.880 --> 02:02:35.439
Is that is that a violation of
liberty? Um? Right? Mmm?

1447
02:02:40.880 --> 02:02:48.600
Well if a person is just mm
hmm, Well, I guess I would

1448
02:02:48.840 --> 02:02:51.720
have to think more that. That's
fine, you can think on it.

1449
02:02:53.960 --> 02:02:59.840
Let's see. So tonight's topics,
as we said, are listed, So

1450
02:03:00.039 --> 02:03:02.399
please not I'm not trusting at that
guy that was on topic as these what's

1451
02:03:02.479 --> 02:03:14.239
up asis? I'm sorry, I
want for communists, we're all what's right

1452
02:03:14.319 --> 02:03:20.640
at red red terror up in here? What's up? Dog? What's up?

1453
02:03:20.720 --> 02:03:31.159
Dog a? These you got?
I mean, hello, hey,

1454
02:03:31.239 --> 02:03:44.399
do you hear me? I'm coming
from Protestantism, specifically Christian constructions. Maybe

1455
02:03:44.520 --> 02:03:49.359
that's the way how I found your
channel. Thank you for your clarity and

1456
02:03:49.439 --> 02:03:56.920
your contents. It's very helpful,
especially how you flesh out the test and

1457
02:03:56.960 --> 02:04:03.239
dental arguments. And also I got
interested orthodoxy. So now I among a

1458
02:04:03.279 --> 02:04:11.560
couple of things to reconcile and see
how in my tradition could be kind of

1459
02:04:11.680 --> 02:04:15.439
fixed. One of them it would
be, as you point out, penal

1460
02:04:15.520 --> 02:04:29.680
substitutional atonement in in its mysterious kind
of Nestorian elements. Yeah. So uh.

1461
02:04:30.399 --> 02:04:35.960
One, I had in mind two
ways to direct my mind to solve

1462
02:04:36.000 --> 02:04:41.760
it. One would be could you
please My question is could you please comment

1463
02:04:41.880 --> 02:04:47.760
on my directions so it could be
helpful for me. Two directions, one

1464
02:04:48.239 --> 02:04:56.199
to see how First, what is
the nature of rest of God? From

1465
02:04:56.760 --> 02:05:02.439
Orthodox perspective? What is anger,
wrath and hatred all these divine energies?

1466
02:05:03.520 --> 02:05:10.520
And if so is it? Yes? The answer is that yeah, said

1467
02:05:10.520 --> 02:05:15.560
that you're correct, that God's justice. I don't know if I would say

1468
02:05:15.640 --> 02:05:18.680
anger and wrath or energies, but
they express the manifestation of divine justice.

1469
02:05:20.600 --> 02:05:32.279
So yeah, my mind is almost
mush. I don't know if I have

1470
02:05:32.319 --> 02:05:39.960
any more energy, so we're gonna
have to end it. Guys, will

1471
02:05:39.960 --> 02:05:42.840
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02:05:42.880 --> 02:05:46.640
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02:06:04.600 --> 02:06:12.800
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02:06:16.039 --> 02:06:18.640
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1480
02:06:18.800 --> 02:06:24.560
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02:06:24.600 --> 02:06:29.800
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02:06:29.960 --> 02:06:33.319
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02:06:33.359 --> 02:06:42.680
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