WEBVTT 1 00:00:01.800 --> 00:00:15.679 Well Whiskey coming pain from power Line blog dot com and produced by Ricochet dot 2 00:00:15.720 --> 00:00:22.679 Com. This is the three Whiskey Happy Hour with your bartenders Steve Hayward, 3 00:00:23.120 --> 00:00:30.199 John You, and power Lines International Woman of Mystery Lucretia. I've gotta given 4 00:00:30.679 --> 00:00:37.640 let that whiskey float where you're being in loud, down and load. So, 5 00:00:37.759 --> 00:00:42.240 John, have you tried a double big Mac at McDonald's yet? I 6 00:00:42.280 --> 00:00:45.119 finally had my first one this week and I really liked it. Really. 7 00:00:45.159 --> 00:00:48.759 What did you like about it? For Teddies? Yeah? More meat finally. 8 00:00:48.840 --> 00:00:51.439 I mean my knock on the big Mac has always been not enough meat 9 00:00:51.439 --> 00:00:54.399 and too much bread and other stuff, and you know it's tasted okay, 10 00:00:54.439 --> 00:00:57.439 but uh see, I was making my own already. I would get a 11 00:00:57.520 --> 00:01:00.880 big Mac and then like a double quarter pounder of cheese. Have you seen 12 00:01:00.920 --> 00:01:03.439 those? You know? Yeah? I have that. You just snack it, 13 00:01:03.519 --> 00:01:07.519 you just like slap it together like that. You take out that middle 14 00:01:07.959 --> 00:01:11.159 bread bun. I don't know what that thing's doing there, and then you 15 00:01:11.239 --> 00:01:12.840 got four petties. I've been doing that for years. Steve, you're so 16 00:01:12.959 --> 00:01:17.680 by the times. We need to get started for real, Hi, everybody, 17 00:01:17.719 --> 00:01:19.280 it is in fact a three whiskey happy hour, although I'm tempted to 18 00:01:19.280 --> 00:01:23.079 call it this week the three whiskey rumpy hour because of all the craziness this 19 00:01:23.120 --> 00:01:26.760 week. And I picked out three or four things for us to look at, 20 00:01:26.920 --> 00:01:30.000 starting with John, I'll throw to you if you've had a chance to 21 00:01:30.040 --> 00:01:36.959 read it, this Alabama case that has excited the left because well it's been 22 00:01:37.000 --> 00:01:40.519 the lead story on the network nightly news for the last three nights, the 23 00:01:40.599 --> 00:01:47.519 Alabama case declaring that in vitro embryos are persons. And it looks and this 24 00:01:47.640 --> 00:01:51.319 is an in kind contribution to the Democratic Party from the TV networks. Why 25 00:01:51.359 --> 00:01:53.480 is that a surprise? But I actually read the case, or read the 26 00:01:53.519 --> 00:01:57.799 majority opinion from one of the justices, and I realized this is being completely 27 00:01:57.840 --> 00:02:01.319 misreported. Well why, Steve, why do you think? Well have you 28 00:02:01.640 --> 00:02:05.120 have you got a chance to get into it? Just looked at I mostly 29 00:02:05.120 --> 00:02:07.599 read the news stories. But oh, there's right there. The whole thing 30 00:02:07.639 --> 00:02:10.800 seems logical to me. I mean, I don't. I mean, it's 31 00:02:10.840 --> 00:02:15.759 just, uh, it isn't just just that's just it's just how federalism works. 32 00:02:15.759 --> 00:02:21.000 Each state's allowed to draw when life begins for itself. Under the Dobbs 33 00:02:21.039 --> 00:02:25.159 decision. So why can't Alabama say life starts at conception? Well, okay, 34 00:02:25.199 --> 00:02:30.439 that's not quite correct. See uh no, this actually has very little 35 00:02:30.520 --> 00:02:34.919 or almost nothing to do with Dobbs. And here's why this is a peculiar 36 00:02:34.960 --> 00:02:38.800 case. It was not a criminal case. It's a civil lawsuit from actually 37 00:02:38.840 --> 00:02:45.520 two different couples who had some fertilized embryos at a clinic, then some and 38 00:02:45.520 --> 00:02:50.439 it said that accidentally destroyed. Well, yeah, although it's by a criminal 39 00:02:50.439 --> 00:02:52.960 act, was somebody who broke into this room and was you know, I 40 00:02:53.000 --> 00:02:55.800 don't know. It sounds malicious and whatever. But the point is is they 41 00:02:55.879 --> 00:03:01.439 sue them under under old common law liability that you've destroyed our property. That's 42 00:03:01.479 --> 00:03:06.560 one claim, you destroyed our property and you owe us punited damages. The 43 00:03:06.599 --> 00:03:08.560 other claim was that, oh, by the way, these should be persons 44 00:03:08.639 --> 00:03:14.759 under an old statue in Alabama, which sounds somewhat familiar. I'm trying to 45 00:03:14.759 --> 00:03:19.280 get the name of it here. See, that's the wrongful death of a 46 00:03:19.319 --> 00:03:22.159 minor act. That's the name of it. And look, I mean, 47 00:03:22.520 --> 00:03:25.080 I'm not an expert in homicide laws, but I do know from if I 48 00:03:25.120 --> 00:03:31.439 did just this week teach what's his name Blackstone's chapter on homicide to students that 49 00:03:31.599 --> 00:03:38.639 it's long been widely practiced that if an unborn child is killed in an assault 50 00:03:38.639 --> 00:03:45.280 on a woman or an expected mother, that the killed fetus can be charged 51 00:03:45.280 --> 00:03:49.319 as a homicide by the criminal. So I don't see this. So the 52 00:03:49.400 --> 00:03:53.680 question here was, well, all right, how far back copy for a 53 00:03:53.719 --> 00:03:55.879 second, Steve, and just say that in this particular case, because you 54 00:03:55.960 --> 00:04:00.159 said you rightfully said it was a civil suit. This particular statute, the 55 00:04:00.439 --> 00:04:08.240 Alabama Wrongful Death of a Minor, allows parents of a deceased child to sue 56 00:04:08.280 --> 00:04:13.800 for punitive damages for their child's death. And if Alabama law holds it unborn 57 00:04:13.840 --> 00:04:18.439 children are children, then it would apply therefore to these embryos. Well, 58 00:04:18.720 --> 00:04:24.759 well, let me read just the first two sentences of the analysis, because 59 00:04:24.800 --> 00:04:27.079 I think this pushes I mean, I first thought too, John, that 60 00:04:27.120 --> 00:04:30.720 this was, oh, they've gone full personhood under the fourteenth Amendment here, 61 00:04:30.959 --> 00:04:34.759 which you thought might happen under Dobbs. But here's how the analysis starts. 62 00:04:35.480 --> 00:04:40.759 The parties to these cases have raised many difficult questions, including ones about the 63 00:04:40.759 --> 00:04:45.920 ethical status of extra uterine children, the application of the fourteenth Amendment of the 64 00:04:46.040 --> 00:04:51.439 United States Constitution to such children and the public policy implications of treating extra uterine 65 00:04:51.519 --> 00:04:58.199 children as human beings. But the Court today need not address these questions because, 66 00:04:58.240 --> 00:05:02.439 as explained below, the relevant and statutory text is clear the Wrongful Death 67 00:05:02.439 --> 00:05:09.480 of a Minor Act applies on space to all unborn children without limitation. And 68 00:05:09.519 --> 00:05:11.199 you know, we go on from there and talk about it. But the 69 00:05:11.240 --> 00:05:15.920 point is this is a statutory construction case. It's not a constitutional case. 70 00:05:15.120 --> 00:05:20.000 And what they're saying is, look, there's a question here about whether there 71 00:05:20.079 --> 00:05:25.959 was an unwritten exception to the rule for extra uterine children that has unborn children 72 00:05:26.399 --> 00:05:29.839 outside the uterus at the time they're killed, like you know, partial to 73 00:05:30.279 --> 00:05:32.680 inside the uterus at the time they're killed. Right. Well, I mean 74 00:05:32.959 --> 00:05:38.120 this the opinion of the main opinion of the majority, and there are several 75 00:05:38.120 --> 00:05:41.800 concurrences, and I think there's some trouble lurking in some of the concurrences that 76 00:05:41.839 --> 00:05:45.720 I think do try to use the personal argument and go further than the court's 77 00:05:45.720 --> 00:05:48.279 official opinion. But what they said is is you look, you know, 78 00:05:48.319 --> 00:05:53.639 from the sound of things from the scientists were not far away from when gestation 79 00:05:53.759 --> 00:05:57.399 could take place entirely outside of the womb. And if we get to that 80 00:05:57.600 --> 00:06:01.920 position to deny that an embryo, a fertilized embryo, is not a human 81 00:06:01.959 --> 00:06:06.399 being, then are we going to say to be consistent that this person gets 82 00:06:06.439 --> 00:06:10.759 no legal protection even after they fully just stated. I mean, they raise 83 00:06:10.800 --> 00:06:14.680 some very interesting questions that cut decisively the other way from the way the press 84 00:06:14.720 --> 00:06:16.120 is spinning this. I can rant further it, but I'll stop there. 85 00:06:16.160 --> 00:06:23.439 But I still think it is an implication of Dobbs, because I bet that 86 00:06:23.759 --> 00:06:31.160 before Dobs you could not have applied this statute to just a IVF, you 87 00:06:31.199 --> 00:06:35.600 know, fertilized egg, because the courts would have said, you are you 88 00:06:35.680 --> 00:06:41.199 know, defining you know, a viable life right because you're saying this is 89 00:06:41.240 --> 00:06:44.879 a child right, so you can't. I would thought before Dobs, under 90 00:06:45.000 --> 00:06:48.480 Row and Casey, the courts would have said, oh, a child can't 91 00:06:48.519 --> 00:06:54.040 exist until you're viable, right, which was the Casey standard. And now 92 00:06:54.079 --> 00:06:58.279 you're because of Dobbs, a state can now say, okay, child can 93 00:06:58.519 --> 00:07:03.560 exist at the time of in vitro fertilization, and that's allowed by that's allowed 94 00:07:03.560 --> 00:07:08.519 by federalism under the dabs approach to federalism. Each state can define that differently, 95 00:07:09.000 --> 00:07:14.160 and John, in support of your point, it says here before analyzing 96 00:07:14.199 --> 00:07:17.519 the disagreement, it says, all, let's talk about the points of agreement. 97 00:07:18.000 --> 00:07:24.959 All parties to these cases, like all members of this court agree that 98 00:07:25.079 --> 00:07:32.800 an unborn child is hold on, I just have child has a genetically unique 99 00:07:32.920 --> 00:07:41.879 human being whose life begins at fertilization and ends at death. The parties further 100 00:07:41.920 --> 00:07:45.240 agree that an on board child usually qualifies as a human life, human being, 101 00:07:45.319 --> 00:07:48.759 or person, as those words are ordinarily used or used in ordinary conversation 102 00:07:48.920 --> 00:07:54.279 in the text of the Alabama's Robe death statute. So they may not be 103 00:07:54.360 --> 00:07:58.439 reaching the Fourteenth Amendment issue of what is a person. But according to this 104 00:07:58.720 --> 00:08:03.079 decision, every man of the court and both parties in the case agree that 105 00:08:03.600 --> 00:08:09.439 an unborn child is a child. Yeah, it seems to me that It 106 00:08:09.480 --> 00:08:16.279 seems to me that this decision is not possible until after Dobbs, because if 107 00:08:16.319 --> 00:08:20.360 this were true before Dobbs. But you so, if this statute meant what 108 00:08:20.519 --> 00:08:24.120 you say it means, and the court saysn't what it means, then but 109 00:08:24.639 --> 00:08:26.720 three Dobs, you have a right to carry out an abortion, then you 110 00:08:26.720 --> 00:08:33.080 would have been committing murder according to this statue, or a wrongful death according 111 00:08:33.080 --> 00:08:37.200 to this statue. But the abortion doctor, the abortion doctors, and the 112 00:08:37.919 --> 00:08:43.919 woman would have a constitutional defense that they what they were doing was allowed under 113 00:08:43.080 --> 00:08:46.919 Casey and Rowe. No, you know, I don't know. I mean, 114 00:08:48.960 --> 00:08:52.120 well, all right, the implications I think could be drawn in that 115 00:08:52.159 --> 00:08:56.879 direction. But this case doesn't involve an abortion. But the issue an abortion 116 00:08:58.080 --> 00:09:01.919 isn't abortion. The issue in abortion and is what really constitutes a human life, 117 00:09:03.080 --> 00:09:05.559 whether or not the Court was willing to go that far. And again 118 00:09:05.639 --> 00:09:09.720 it's it's the question John always asks us, do we need does the Fourteenth 119 00:09:09.759 --> 00:09:18.519 Amendment grant personhood to an unborn child? And the court skips the Supreme Court 120 00:09:18.559 --> 00:09:22.120 skips around that question pretty well. Is just like the Court does here and 121 00:09:22.200 --> 00:09:26.679 tries to do some other things historical tradition and this and this and this. 122 00:09:26.000 --> 00:09:31.399 They never come out in Dobbs and say that a fetus isn't is a person 123 00:09:31.879 --> 00:09:37.679 deserving a protection by the state under the Fourteenth Amendment. Never this one gets 124 00:09:37.720 --> 00:09:43.120 closer, I think a little bit closer. They Yeah, they do make 125 00:09:43.200 --> 00:09:46.559 a I see it now, I'm looking it up. They do make a 126 00:09:46.679 --> 00:09:50.080 reference to Dobbs, and know they cite Dobbs very early in the opinion. 127 00:09:50.120 --> 00:09:52.080 Now that I am, I think I missed it the first time that we 128 00:09:52.200 --> 00:09:56.879 caught Maya, I was a citation not to Dobbs, but not the Harvard 129 00:09:56.919 --> 00:10:03.000 case. Caught that on page sounds pretty Blackstone and everything. Yeah, yeah, 130 00:10:03.039 --> 00:10:07.360 I like all the Blackstone sites. Of course, I don't know. 131 00:10:07.440 --> 00:10:11.399 I mean, I think this highlights maybe the person to talk to about this 132 00:10:11.440 --> 00:10:15.960 would be Hadley Arcis. Of course, maybe this highlights the incoherence and difficulties 133 00:10:16.000 --> 00:10:20.440 that everyone's been trying to avoid. And I think this majority opinion raises some 134 00:10:20.480 --> 00:10:24.440 of those difficulties or suggests them in a pretty interesting way. And everybody's hair 135 00:10:24.519 --> 00:10:28.720 is on fire. But maybe I'd like to ask a question of you guys. 136 00:10:28.960 --> 00:10:31.200 This is a as Steve pointed out, First of all, it's a 137 00:10:31.200 --> 00:10:37.279 civil case, and it is an exception. The case is about an exception 138 00:10:37.919 --> 00:10:41.919 to a rule. What I really want to ask you, guys, is 139 00:10:41.440 --> 00:10:46.840 what about the long standing contradiction where in fact, it's not just Alabama Low, 140 00:10:46.879 --> 00:10:50.039 it's a law in most states that if you kill, if you harm 141 00:10:50.080 --> 00:10:54.320 a pregnant woman and kill her unborn child. You can in fact be tried 142 00:10:54.320 --> 00:11:00.360 with murder. That was the case before Dobbs. And I mean, what 143 00:11:00.480 --> 00:11:05.960 a huge, incredible contradiction it is to say that that can happen, but 144 00:11:05.000 --> 00:11:11.519 that somehow the female herself can choose to end that child's life. And it's 145 00:11:11.559 --> 00:11:16.080 not I mean, because once they're born, you don't get to just kill 146 00:11:16.120 --> 00:11:20.039 your kid, right, So so murder's murder once a child is born. 147 00:11:20.279 --> 00:11:26.279 What creates the exception there? And it makes no sense, It's it's absolutely 148 00:11:26.320 --> 00:11:31.120 inconsistent and hypocritical. Well, the way I reconcile it when I would, 149 00:11:31.240 --> 00:11:33.279 I mean, it's not what I study closely, but you know I teach 150 00:11:33.320 --> 00:11:39.799 abortion from time to time in class, and I thought the way to reconcile 151 00:11:39.840 --> 00:11:46.759 it was that if you had if the pregnant woman who was killed or the 152 00:11:46.759 --> 00:11:50.799 fetus was killed, the fetus was past the point of viability, that's murder 153 00:11:52.679 --> 00:11:58.600 the state because the Row doctrine was that the state has this right, has 154 00:11:58.639 --> 00:12:03.039 this perior interest in the protecting the life of the fetus after viability. But 155 00:12:03.279 --> 00:12:07.159 I think I've just not looked at the cases. If there was a pregnant 156 00:12:07.159 --> 00:12:11.080 woman, and she was pregnant but pre viability so in the first trimester, 157 00:12:11.960 --> 00:12:16.519 and some murderer killed her or her fetus, could she still could he still 158 00:12:16.519 --> 00:12:22.360 be prosecuted for murder of the fetus even though it's not viable. Yeah, 159 00:12:22.440 --> 00:12:26.120 well, okay, probably very state to state. But what I will tell 160 00:12:26.120 --> 00:12:31.080 you is that they don't prosecute a woman for partial birth abortion. They make 161 00:12:31.120 --> 00:12:35.600 it legal in some places. Well, so, what little I know is 162 00:12:35.639 --> 00:12:39.000 that the laws bury on this. I mean, there's I think there's some 163 00:12:39.039 --> 00:12:43.039 acknowledgment of that in this opinion here and there. But let me introduce another 164 00:12:43.080 --> 00:12:48.840 wrinkle to it, which is a lot of conservative politicians are rushing out to 165 00:12:48.840 --> 00:12:52.519 say, we need to fix the law to clarify this because we're for in 166 00:12:52.679 --> 00:12:58.960 vitro fertilization. And there's some controversy about this, not because it's somehow unnatural 167 00:13:00.080 --> 00:13:03.919 necessarily, but it's the surrogate angle. But let's leave aside that the surrogacy 168 00:13:05.039 --> 00:13:09.080 question. But so a lot of pro lifers are foreign virtual fertilization. It 169 00:13:09.120 --> 00:13:13.919 brings us more babies. It's you know, it's it's it's it's pro life 170 00:13:13.000 --> 00:13:16.799 for for couples that are having difficulty conceiving in the normal way. And so 171 00:13:18.200 --> 00:13:22.480 there is an interesting cross cutting confusion about what to think about this case and 172 00:13:22.480 --> 00:13:26.600 what should be done about it. Well, I think politically it's a mistake 173 00:13:26.759 --> 00:13:33.320 for yes, other states are the Republican party to agree with the policy implications 174 00:13:33.360 --> 00:13:37.879 of this decision. If it means, you know, IVF is going to 175 00:13:37.879 --> 00:13:39.600 be banned, I take it. I'm not an expert, but I take 176 00:13:39.639 --> 00:13:45.120 it. Then, or to have a successful IVF treatments as they're done now, 177 00:13:45.200 --> 00:13:50.080 maybe technology will change it. Now you have to create several embryo yeah, 178 00:13:50.159 --> 00:13:52.600 right, and so then you implant, yeah, and then some you 179 00:13:52.639 --> 00:13:58.120 don't and some you destroy. Is that murder? Or is that wrongful death? 180 00:13:58.159 --> 00:14:03.960 And now and now it sounds like it is under the statute, And 181 00:14:03.039 --> 00:14:09.080 so you would have the effect of actually preventing i f F from working successfully 182 00:14:09.600 --> 00:14:16.159 if you took this decision and applied it to the IVF industry. I don't 183 00:14:16.159 --> 00:14:22.559 see. Yeah, I don't know. I mean, I mean, my 184 00:14:22.639 --> 00:14:24.360 first pass all up, I might change my mind, is that at least 185 00:14:24.360 --> 00:14:33.480 you would immunize or limit a liability for retro fertilization clinics to simply gross By 186 00:14:33.480 --> 00:14:37.399 the way, one of the councils lawsuit is gross negligence, which I and 187 00:14:37.519 --> 00:14:41.279 so that's several different claims here. But I think you can ask a question. 188 00:14:41.600 --> 00:14:46.240 Yeah, go ahead. I didn't know, it's been a week. 189 00:14:46.320 --> 00:14:52.720 What I heard was that Alabama had stopped all individual fertilization practices as a result 190 00:14:52.759 --> 00:14:56.399 of trying to figure out what this case actually meant. Did I hear the 191 00:14:56.399 --> 00:14:58.440 wrong thing? Well, though the state did not order them closed, it 192 00:14:58.480 --> 00:15:03.759 was the individ clinics because of the question of liability now have stopped any further. 193 00:15:03.840 --> 00:15:05.639 That's all I mean, that's a perfectly normal business response. But no, 194 00:15:05.720 --> 00:15:09.960 the state I heard barely something about it and didn't have time to run 195 00:15:09.000 --> 00:15:11.720 it down. So I just want a clarification. So, well, yeah, 196 00:15:11.720 --> 00:15:16.639 if you hear someone say Alabama has shut down IVF clinics, if they 197 00:15:16.639 --> 00:15:20.000 mean Alabama, thus it's not state action, right, it just means the 198 00:15:20.159 --> 00:15:24.200 uh. And I totally get that, because you're suddenly in limbo and right, 199 00:15:24.279 --> 00:15:28.519 and and your insurance companies are anyway, you can see how the how 200 00:15:28.559 --> 00:15:35.679 this. But I Alabama is defining life as beginning as conception, then why 201 00:15:35.039 --> 00:15:41.799 wouldn't the destruction of IVF embryos be murder in Alabama. Yeah, body, 202 00:15:41.960 --> 00:15:46.240 I mean, the logic seems very straightforward. I don't see how they get 203 00:15:46.240 --> 00:15:48.360 out of it. I saw in the pay I saw in the paper today 204 00:15:48.879 --> 00:15:54.840 that the Attorney General of Alabama is saying that we're not going to bring criminal 205 00:15:54.879 --> 00:16:00.000 prosecutions against IVF clinics. But then what he's reading in an exception and to 206 00:16:00.240 --> 00:16:03.840 their statute and their definition of life and their state constitution, that's not there. 207 00:16:06.240 --> 00:16:11.080 Yeah, so I don't know. Again. My first pass is this 208 00:16:11.200 --> 00:16:17.080 is one of those cases where maybe Lucretia the shoes on the other foot here 209 00:16:17.080 --> 00:16:21.519 are charge against utopian liberals is they believe that you can have a human society 210 00:16:21.519 --> 00:16:25.799 without any tragic outcomes. Right, We've been saying that for forty years and 211 00:16:26.519 --> 00:16:32.919 essential element of human society, and here is an example of this cutting the 212 00:16:32.960 --> 00:16:36.480 other way. That's the best. This is the thing. This is not 213 00:16:36.559 --> 00:16:38.320 like where you can play around with the words. I mean the state I'm 214 00:16:38.360 --> 00:16:45.200 reading it's in the decision that quotes the state constitution that says it is the 215 00:16:45.240 --> 00:16:48.960 public policy of this state to ensure the protection of the rights of the unborn 216 00:16:48.039 --> 00:16:53.120 child in all manner and measure lawful and appropriate. And it even directs the 217 00:16:53.240 --> 00:17:00.519 courts to interpret all laws to favor unborn children. Yeah, it's obviously how 218 00:17:00.519 --> 00:17:03.920 the Attorney general and the district attorneys down there can start running around and saying, 219 00:17:03.960 --> 00:17:07.839 well, we're going to create an exception for IVF clinics. Yeah, 220 00:17:08.119 --> 00:17:11.000 yeah, this is Uh. I think you're I think you are quite right 221 00:17:11.039 --> 00:17:15.519 that even if the media we're reporting it more accurately, it still is politically 222 00:17:17.319 --> 00:17:19.799 damaging to the pro life cause. Probably. Well. I read also in 223 00:17:19.839 --> 00:17:26.359 the paper today that, like I think, almost every Republican candidate for a 224 00:17:26.519 --> 00:17:30.480 contested Senate seat has come out saying that they support iv IVF and not this 225 00:17:30.599 --> 00:17:34.960 decision. And President President Trump he is still you still call him that. 226 00:17:36.480 --> 00:17:40.240 He said the same thing very forcefully on the campaign trail Friday. Yeah. 227 00:17:40.279 --> 00:17:44.200 But again, I mean, you're making too much of what the actual decision 228 00:17:44.319 --> 00:17:48.000 does. Uh. And so if you can't have a bit of prudence in 229 00:17:48.039 --> 00:17:52.559 the way this comes across. They're not alleging that that, you know, 230 00:17:52.640 --> 00:17:59.480 as in the course of a business practice, the clinic just destroyed a fertilized 231 00:17:59.519 --> 00:18:04.519 embryo that they no longer needed. They're actually alleging something criminal took place, 232 00:18:04.839 --> 00:18:11.319 which they're now bringing punitive civil damages against. Right, you said criminal negligence, 233 00:18:11.359 --> 00:18:15.839 Steve, so Well, I guess you can say that the logical extension 234 00:18:15.839 --> 00:18:21.279 of that is to say that even if you allow an embryo to you know, 235 00:18:21.359 --> 00:18:26.200 to the temperature to go wrong and it is destroyed, however you want 236 00:18:26.240 --> 00:18:32.759 to put it, that that would be problematic. But I actually think that 237 00:18:32.839 --> 00:18:34.599 this is a game. I don't think that this is a serious thing. 238 00:18:36.039 --> 00:18:38.039 In some ways. I think it's actually part of the whole, the larger 239 00:18:38.799 --> 00:18:45.960 trying to figure out what it means to protect unborn children. And I'm not 240 00:18:45.960 --> 00:18:52.119 sure that they may necessarily made the exact right decision, but I just think 241 00:18:52.119 --> 00:18:55.640 it's part of the skirmish. I don't think it's Does anybody really think it's 242 00:18:55.640 --> 00:19:02.559 a serious problem that people are going in and destroying embryos in fertility clinics. 243 00:19:06.279 --> 00:19:08.720 I didn't. I never thought about it until this week, exactly exactly, 244 00:19:10.200 --> 00:19:14.519 So anyway, I think it's and of course the left is going to make 245 00:19:14.559 --> 00:19:18.720 the most about it. Yeah, yeah, well, all right, let's 246 00:19:18.759 --> 00:19:26.440 let's leave it there for now, right, all right, let's turn to 247 00:19:26.559 --> 00:19:32.720 one other legal topic before we get to some political topics. So John, 248 00:19:32.759 --> 00:19:36.839 I'm gonna turn to you again first. I was dismayed this week when the 249 00:19:36.880 --> 00:19:41.440 Supreme Court denied cert on an appeal of the Thomas Jefferson Science School there in 250 00:19:41.519 --> 00:19:45.200 Virginia, which, for people don't know this is this is the school that 251 00:19:47.160 --> 00:19:51.640 very high public school, but it specialized when you had to apply to math 252 00:19:51.680 --> 00:19:56.440 and science strength the ads, we won't be surprised to learn heavily Asian over 253 00:19:56.480 --> 00:20:00.000 the last couple of decades. And that didn't sit well with the new school, 254 00:20:00.319 --> 00:20:03.559 so they fiddled with things and did diversity and changed all that and kicked 255 00:20:03.559 --> 00:20:07.640 out half the agent students. They lost in the district court before the Harvard 256 00:20:07.680 --> 00:20:11.440 case. Then the circuit court reversed and said no, no, they can 257 00:20:11.480 --> 00:20:15.200 discriminate if they want, essentially is what they said. And the Supreme Court 258 00:20:15.279 --> 00:20:18.680 denied cert on hearing the appeal. And I'm stunned at this because I would 259 00:20:18.680 --> 00:20:22.319 have thought after the Harvard case this would be a slam dunk case of a 260 00:20:22.359 --> 00:20:25.920 mop up operation like you saw after Brown versus Board in the fifties, But 261 00:20:25.960 --> 00:20:29.640 they denied. Sir John, do you know why you have time to pay 262 00:20:29.680 --> 00:20:33.480 attention to this. Are they waiting for something better, which seems hard to 263 00:20:33.480 --> 00:20:38.279 me to imagine. I'm really disappointed too. I should disclose upfront that I'm 264 00:20:38.319 --> 00:20:45.000 on the board of the Pacific Legal Foundation and they were the lawyers representing the 265 00:20:45.039 --> 00:20:48.279 Asian student not just Asian students, but the student groups and parents that were 266 00:20:48.319 --> 00:20:55.240 suing the school district here. So I'm very disappointed too. The only thing 267 00:20:55.279 --> 00:21:02.160 I can think of is this court probably take some note of what happened, 268 00:21:02.160 --> 00:21:04.960 as you said, Steve, after Brown, and after Brown, you might 269 00:21:06.000 --> 00:21:10.079 remember there was something called massive resistance, which I think is going on right 270 00:21:10.119 --> 00:21:15.200 now in school districts and colleges and universities everywhere. And I think the Court, 271 00:21:15.319 --> 00:21:18.759 if it looked honestly at its history, would realize that they fought a 272 00:21:18.920 --> 00:21:25.759 hard war for ten years after Brown, and they didn't always succeed because they 273 00:21:25.759 --> 00:21:29.039 didn't have the support of the President and Congress behind them. And it wasn't 274 00:21:29.079 --> 00:21:32.799 really the until the passage of the Civil Rights Act of nineteen sixty four that 275 00:21:32.880 --> 00:21:37.680 you really see desegregation really start to get underway in the South. But I 276 00:21:37.759 --> 00:21:41.039 find it really hard to square with what the Constitution should meet. They put 277 00:21:41.039 --> 00:21:45.279 it this way. But the lower court with the Fourth Circuit, the lower 278 00:21:45.319 --> 00:21:53.079 court here basically allowed was you can get away with racial discrimination as long as 279 00:21:53.160 --> 00:21:59.079 you do it in a way where the rules look facially neutral, where the 280 00:21:59.559 --> 00:22:03.599 rules don't talk about race, even if you have the intention. Because one 281 00:22:03.599 --> 00:22:07.200 thing the district judge found, he made, oh credible findings about what these 282 00:22:07.200 --> 00:22:11.440 school board members were emailing and saying to each other. He just found it 283 00:22:11.440 --> 00:22:15.880 as obvious that they're acting against ccations. Yeah, that they're they're racists. 284 00:22:17.240 --> 00:22:19.319 Yeah. I remember reading the district court opinion. It was spectacularly good. 285 00:22:19.480 --> 00:22:22.279 Yeah, well yeah, I mean he just because I mean, the school 286 00:22:22.319 --> 00:22:26.480 board members were open about what they were doing, but they didn't write it 287 00:22:26.519 --> 00:22:29.880 down into the law. This is what the Supreme Court said you couldn't do 288 00:22:29.960 --> 00:22:33.559 after Brown, because after Brown, the South, the Southern States did exactly 289 00:22:33.599 --> 00:22:37.319 this. They tried to think of every way they could to try to get 290 00:22:37.359 --> 00:22:41.079 around Brown bypass. So I still remember there was one state, it might 291 00:22:41.079 --> 00:22:45.839 have been Virginia, that just closed all the public schools. They said, 292 00:22:45.920 --> 00:22:48.039 yes, well, if we have to desagreate the bubbsles, then we're just 293 00:22:48.079 --> 00:22:52.160 going to privatize all schools. And the Court was like you, obviously we 294 00:22:52.240 --> 00:22:55.920 know what you're up to. I think that's exactly what's going on now. 295 00:22:56.119 --> 00:23:00.720 So the only thing I can uh, only thing I can think of that 296 00:23:00.839 --> 00:23:04.440 might explain this is that the Court has so much politically on its plate. 297 00:23:06.759 --> 00:23:10.279 It's got all these Trump cases coming. It is trying to, you know, 298 00:23:10.319 --> 00:23:14.000 start killing off the administrative state. It's got a lot of federals and 299 00:23:14.079 --> 00:23:18.599 cases. I bet what they want to do is let the country you live 300 00:23:18.640 --> 00:23:22.039 a year or two, a few years under the Harvard case, see what 301 00:23:22.240 --> 00:23:27.359 happens, see whether people will comply, and then if they don't, then 302 00:23:27.480 --> 00:23:33.000 pursue a kind of Brown too, you know, the implementation of Brown. 303 00:23:33.559 --> 00:23:37.720 But that they don't want to do it right away. I think they might 304 00:23:37.759 --> 00:23:40.920 say, is they would like a better case. You know, so often 305 00:23:40.960 --> 00:23:44.279 you look for what they call circuit splits, so they might want to see 306 00:23:44.279 --> 00:23:47.160 other cases. Now. As a board member of PLF, we're not letting 307 00:23:47.160 --> 00:23:51.920 them get away with it. We're also representing a similar case in Boston evolving 308 00:23:51.960 --> 00:23:57.319 the famous school. Right, We're representing students out here with the famous Lowell 309 00:23:57.359 --> 00:24:02.400 High School where Stephen Bryer to school. By the way, so we're trying 310 00:24:02.400 --> 00:24:06.319 to find every magnet school we can where you know, the school board is 311 00:24:06.359 --> 00:24:11.240 messing around with the missions to get the right racial balance again and sue so 312 00:24:11.279 --> 00:24:15.079 that eventually it will get back to the Supreme Court and they can't deny CIRT 313 00:24:15.160 --> 00:24:17.960 on all of those cases. Yeah, okay, now let me throw a 314 00:24:18.279 --> 00:24:22.920 red meat question into lucretia. Well, all right, comment. Sure, 315 00:24:23.079 --> 00:24:27.640 So here's my problem with that, John. I don't just necessarily disagree with 316 00:24:27.680 --> 00:24:33.559 your analysis, but it just confirms what I often say, which is that 317 00:24:33.720 --> 00:24:37.880 Roberts cares about the integrity of the court and not the integrity of the constitution. 318 00:24:37.319 --> 00:24:41.039 He couldn't care less with the constitutions. You guys tried to convince me 319 00:24:41.119 --> 00:24:44.960 that this was one of those things that Roberts was really good at. But 320 00:24:45.079 --> 00:24:48.039 if it looks like it's going to put the Court in hot water. I 321 00:24:48.079 --> 00:24:52.319 saw five or six different articles that said the reason that the Supreme Court denied 322 00:24:52.400 --> 00:24:56.079 CIRT was because they were you know, they didn't want any more backlash and 323 00:24:56.160 --> 00:25:00.559 they were just cowards. Basically, that was the thing it read me. 324 00:25:00.720 --> 00:25:03.640 Question I was going to ask you, do you think the intimidation campaign is 325 00:25:03.680 --> 00:25:07.960 working? And if it is then, how embarrassing because you know, quite 326 00:25:07.960 --> 00:25:12.640 frankly, the Warren Court didn't let that stop them. I mean, there 327 00:25:12.680 --> 00:25:18.400 were you'll recall the billboards across the South and Peter o' warren, but they 328 00:25:18.400 --> 00:25:23.519 were also engaged in a massive, massive, uh you know, what would 329 00:25:23.559 --> 00:25:30.240 the word be, evolution of the constitutional interpretation. You know, those are 330 00:25:30.240 --> 00:25:36.119 the years following Brown where most of the very worst decisions, the Map versus 331 00:25:36.119 --> 00:25:40.319 Ohio. I could go on and on and on about the terrible Warren decisions, 332 00:25:40.559 --> 00:25:45.680 but my point is it, I don't believe this entirely, but you've 333 00:25:45.720 --> 00:25:52.119 both heard this before, the trope that it was the Warren Court's moral leadership 334 00:25:52.119 --> 00:25:57.480 in Brown and the cases that follow it that actually made the Civil rights movement 335 00:25:57.519 --> 00:26:02.480 and the Civil Rights Act nineteen sixty four the Voting Rights Act of nineteen sixty 336 00:26:02.480 --> 00:26:07.240 five possible. Whether I believe that or not, let's take it at face 337 00:26:07.359 --> 00:26:11.319 value. So what this is going to mean to everybody out there is that, 338 00:26:11.440 --> 00:26:12.720 yeah, maybe the Court said that, but they weren't really all that 339 00:26:12.880 --> 00:26:18.000 serious about it, And there is no moral force to the argument that people 340 00:26:18.000 --> 00:26:21.000 should be judged on the content of their character, not the color of their 341 00:26:21.039 --> 00:26:25.960 skin. That's the takeaway from this, and that's because Roberts is a coward 342 00:26:26.480 --> 00:26:30.160 at bottom. Well now, wait, okay, I won't dispute you on 343 00:26:30.240 --> 00:26:33.480 well I've learned better than to dispute you on your views. It only took 344 00:26:33.519 --> 00:26:37.720 four votes. I mean, if the four other conservatives of the other five 345 00:26:37.880 --> 00:26:38.880 had wanted to do it, they could have heard it. So Roberts had 346 00:26:38.880 --> 00:26:41.759 to have at least a couple others going on and one at least yes. 347 00:26:41.920 --> 00:26:45.160 Yeah, okay, do in my math, right, yeahv one And that's 348 00:26:45.200 --> 00:26:52.279 easy. It's either Kavanaugh or Amy Cony Barrett, both of whom have proven 349 00:26:52.319 --> 00:26:57.000 themselves, if not necessarily to agree with Roberts, to be susceptible to Roberts 350 00:26:57.119 --> 00:27:02.119 integrity of the court argument or the court shouldn't be appeared to be too political 351 00:27:02.240 --> 00:27:06.119 or as you put it to me, John, that moderating or balancing act. 352 00:27:06.160 --> 00:27:08.240 Okay, we decided Harvard this way last year. But yeah, we're 353 00:27:08.279 --> 00:27:14.559 going to decide the Chevron case doctrine again. So maybe we need to just 354 00:27:14.640 --> 00:27:18.839 be squishy on this right now and save it for later because you know, 355 00:27:18.079 --> 00:27:22.039 well okay, let me also don't do that. Only conservatives do. Damn 356 00:27:22.119 --> 00:27:25.920 it. Yeah, okay, I don't want to let me ask you with 357 00:27:26.000 --> 00:27:29.920 John about another case they denied assert on this week, and I'm not sure 358 00:27:29.960 --> 00:27:33.319 PLF was of all in this, but they turned away to appeals of rent 359 00:27:33.319 --> 00:27:37.079 control, which, by the way, there's sort of fresh evidence of how 360 00:27:37.079 --> 00:27:41.119 destructive rent control is with the collapse of a New York community bank. Never 361 00:27:41.119 --> 00:27:45.000 mind the details. I didn't but I didn't notice those cases. But this 362 00:27:45.160 --> 00:27:48.640 is something that PLF and the Our Group and other groups of pushing forward because 363 00:27:49.359 --> 00:27:52.880 I don't know how much people know about rent control. But there's a famous 364 00:27:52.920 --> 00:27:59.640 case from the end from nineteen forty four where the court upheld New York City 365 00:27:59.720 --> 00:28:03.640 rump rent control on the ground that it was an emergency measure justified by World 366 00:28:03.640 --> 00:28:08.559 War Two. And this is still the authority that New York City is using 367 00:28:08.640 --> 00:28:14.599 even today to justify rent control. And so I mean, I think rent 368 00:28:14.599 --> 00:28:18.480 controls are taking I think like understanding. The state just comes in and says 369 00:28:18.599 --> 00:28:22.240 you are not allowed to charge what the market allows you to charge for rent, 370 00:28:22.680 --> 00:28:27.240 and so the idea that it's still justified on an emergency, I can't 371 00:28:27.279 --> 00:28:32.240 believe the court hasn't fixed us one too. I really do think this again. 372 00:28:32.480 --> 00:28:36.119 Well, so, you know, the Court has been making advances in 373 00:28:36.240 --> 00:28:40.799 property rights cases right like PLF for example, has won ten cases in a 374 00:28:40.839 --> 00:28:44.480 row with the Supreme Courts, an incredible record. But I have to say 375 00:28:45.000 --> 00:28:49.599 they've been doing it on the outer boundaries. What they haven't done is strike 376 00:28:49.680 --> 00:28:53.960 at the core of the way we've allowed the government to really restrict our property 377 00:28:55.039 --> 00:29:00.319 rights, like things like rent control. That's where you would really or you 378 00:29:00.359 --> 00:29:04.599 know, these very restrictive conditions on how you can develop your property. Yeah, 379 00:29:04.799 --> 00:29:07.960 that's I mean, they allow the you know, the Court has allowed 380 00:29:08.240 --> 00:29:12.880 the most egregious things that state and local governments do to be challenged and struck 381 00:29:12.920 --> 00:29:17.359 down. But some of the core things they still have to get to, 382 00:29:17.440 --> 00:29:19.559 and I think, right control, I could see them saying rent control is 383 00:29:19.599 --> 00:29:22.519 something we got to get to and do a few more years of these property 384 00:29:22.559 --> 00:29:26.720 rights cases because that's like that would be politically, you know, that would 385 00:29:26.799 --> 00:29:30.200 be combustible if they struck down rent control, although I think it would be 386 00:29:30.200 --> 00:29:33.839 the right decision. Well, our favorite, our favorite justice did did issue 387 00:29:33.839 --> 00:29:37.400 a statement in this denial of sert saying, hey, look, we need 388 00:29:37.440 --> 00:29:41.160 to take this on. Think the thing is John. I think Lucretia, 389 00:29:41.200 --> 00:29:44.599 you were sound like you're about to jump in and say something like what I'm 390 00:29:44.640 --> 00:29:48.160 going to say, which is I think they have feared taking a bold stroke 391 00:29:48.200 --> 00:29:51.799 because it would open up a can of worms and the Federal Court would be 392 00:29:51.799 --> 00:29:56.400 flooded with similar kinds of challenges to regulatory measures that restrict prices and conditions in 393 00:29:56.480 --> 00:30:02.039 trade. And my bring it on is what I say. I kind of 394 00:30:02.079 --> 00:30:04.559 welcome that world, but they're afraid of that. I think that's that's always 395 00:30:04.559 --> 00:30:10.400 been the conventional wisdom of why they didn't reinvigorate the takings clause. I mean 396 00:30:10.680 --> 00:30:14.759 that they don't care about the Constitution and they don't understand the critical nature of 397 00:30:14.799 --> 00:30:18.519 the takings clause and why it exists. I mean the idea that you would 398 00:30:18.519 --> 00:30:26.359 equivocate and say, oh, well, practical considerations should take precedence over the 399 00:30:26.480 --> 00:30:33.359 I mean it's the takings clause is the central thing that protects property, the 400 00:30:33.440 --> 00:30:36.680 right of property in our constitution. If you think it through, it's even 401 00:30:36.680 --> 00:30:41.640 more important in many ways than the Due Process clause because it speaks specifically to 402 00:30:41.920 --> 00:30:48.119 property and to the ownership of property and who rightfully owns it and the idea 403 00:30:48.160 --> 00:30:52.400 that the Supreme Court, other than Clarence Thomas, of course, doesn't understand 404 00:30:52.720 --> 00:30:56.000 the critical nature of that and isn't willing to stand up for it. It 405 00:30:56.160 --> 00:31:02.440 just it further illustrates my point. They're just they're more committed to whatever view 406 00:31:02.519 --> 00:31:06.759 they have of their lofty place in society than they are to the Constitution. 407 00:31:07.480 --> 00:31:14.000 Sorry to say that, I agree with Lucretian on this, that the media 408 00:31:14.039 --> 00:31:19.160 exaggerates of the threat of originalism or it's an originalism dominated court. It's still 409 00:31:19.200 --> 00:31:25.880 not. I mean, it's still people like Roberts and I think Kavanaugh, 410 00:31:26.000 --> 00:31:30.880 maybe Barrett too, I hope not, but I think Roberts and Kavanaugh they 411 00:31:30.960 --> 00:31:37.359 are trying to balance what the right answer is against what they think the political 412 00:31:37.400 --> 00:31:41.359 pressures on the Court are. And right, like you say, if, 413 00:31:41.720 --> 00:31:45.559 as you say, Steve, if you were to strike down rent control, 414 00:31:45.279 --> 00:31:48.920 then the Court, which hasn't done since the thirties, would have to get 415 00:31:48.920 --> 00:31:56.160 into the business return to the business of saying is government regulation of economics gone 416 00:31:56.200 --> 00:32:00.359 too far to the point where has taken away not just starting to d right 417 00:32:00.400 --> 00:32:02.440 to property. Remember, there's also contracts clause in the Constitution, which has 418 00:32:02.440 --> 00:32:07.160 been right out the new Deal. There's you know, there's you know, 419 00:32:07.200 --> 00:32:10.680 there's a there's a good case that uh, you know, individual economic liberties 420 00:32:10.680 --> 00:32:15.119 were originally on a par with political and civil liberties, which which is what 421 00:32:15.279 --> 00:32:21.039 Justice Thomas believes. Can I uh do a segue, and Steve stopped me 422 00:32:21.079 --> 00:32:25.079 if you if this really upsets your plan, But there's there is some similarity 423 00:32:25.160 --> 00:32:30.599 to that and to that nonsense happening to Trump in in Manhattan. We well 424 00:32:30.599 --> 00:32:32.839 that is my next topic, but go ahead, okay, but do you 425 00:32:32.880 --> 00:32:38.880 see I mean, there has been a lot of really intelligent commentary about the 426 00:32:38.920 --> 00:32:44.160 fact that this is going to destroy business in New York. Why I was 427 00:32:44.200 --> 00:32:47.519 the first one out with that point on TV right after the decision. You 428 00:32:47.640 --> 00:32:51.519 I got Vinue, I got it from because I only listened to Fox when 429 00:32:51.519 --> 00:32:54.880 you're on it, John. But yeah, of course that's the point. 430 00:32:55.759 --> 00:33:02.160 I mean, okay, right now, Trump is is the quintessential boogeyman to 431 00:33:02.279 --> 00:33:06.920 the to the New York elite. I get it. He's he is an 432 00:33:06.920 --> 00:33:10.640 extraordinary case. They're not going to go after everybody the way they go after 433 00:33:10.880 --> 00:33:15.359 Trump, the way they went after Trump's business. But at the same time, 434 00:33:15.440 --> 00:33:17.119 if you're you look at it, and you say, they're willing completely 435 00:33:17.160 --> 00:33:21.799 to abandon any principle, any commitment to the rule of law, any sense 436 00:33:21.839 --> 00:33:27.559 of fairness or justice, just to get to destroy a political enemy. What 437 00:33:27.680 --> 00:33:30.119 happens when you become the political enemy. And I'm told, in addition to 438 00:33:30.200 --> 00:33:37.519 John's brilliant argument, that there are actually many businesses leaving New York and Delaware 439 00:33:37.680 --> 00:33:42.079 by that for that matter, because of the you know what happened in Delaware 440 00:33:42.079 --> 00:33:46.880 with the judge deciding that Elon Musk just got too much in compensation after he 441 00:33:47.279 --> 00:33:51.680 h you know, made billions and billions of dollars with his company. H 442 00:33:52.480 --> 00:33:55.920 the terms of the contract that gave him those bonuses had to be overturned because 443 00:33:57.039 --> 00:33:59.960 somebody who also made a whole bunch of money had stock. I don't know, 444 00:34:00.359 --> 00:34:02.880 it's so stupid, but well here's the yes. Sorry, that's we'll 445 00:34:02.920 --> 00:34:07.000 be tied together this way, from the rent control to damages. I have 446 00:34:07.000 --> 00:34:10.440 a particular form of the question I wanted to bring up. I think way 447 00:34:10.480 --> 00:34:15.280 back in nineteen fifty Milton Friedman and George Stigler wrote a famous pamphlet about rent 448 00:34:15.320 --> 00:34:20.440 control, saying it's the most well forruliable way to destroy housing in a city 449 00:34:20.480 --> 00:34:22.360 except for bombing by a form an enemy, which I've always stuck in my 450 00:34:22.400 --> 00:34:28.119 head. Look the Trump thing, three hundred and fifty five million dollars in 451 00:34:28.440 --> 00:34:30.239 damages. I guess that's it. I actually want to end it. Look 452 00:34:30.360 --> 00:34:35.599 New York jury and politicized prosecution. I want to ask about another case that 453 00:34:35.679 --> 00:34:38.599 has it's well known, but I think he deserves more attention, and it's 454 00:34:38.599 --> 00:34:45.199 this libel case against ran Simberg and mark Stein in Washington. I don't know 455 00:34:45.199 --> 00:34:47.960 if you're following us, John mark Stein, you know you probably met him 456 00:34:47.960 --> 00:34:52.639 on an old National Review cruise, right, he's you know, he got 457 00:34:52.679 --> 00:34:55.679 sued for libel by Michael Mann, the famous climatologist who's a really nasty piece 458 00:34:55.719 --> 00:34:58.880 of work. Yes, well, he's a real nasty piece. And by 459 00:34:58.920 --> 00:35:01.199 the way, Michael Man, I aw you a liar, don't get me? 460 00:35:01.760 --> 00:35:06.599 Yeah? So, and and uh what happened is is that uh, 461 00:35:07.000 --> 00:35:16.159 I think we are we joined in severally liable. I need to take out 462 00:35:16.199 --> 00:35:20.320 defamation insurance. Now, well, let me work backwards here, John. 463 00:35:20.360 --> 00:35:25.039 What happened is the uh, the jury ruled uh an awarded man one dollar 464 00:35:25.320 --> 00:35:31.800 in damages, Uh, compensatory damages and in Stein's case, a million dollars 465 00:35:31.840 --> 00:35:37.039 in punitive damages. So hold that thought. The other defendant in the case, 466 00:35:37.159 --> 00:35:43.440 Ran Simberg, was also a rule to owe a dollar in compensatory damages, 467 00:35:43.559 --> 00:35:46.239 and I think it was one thousand dollars in punitive damages. Now, 468 00:35:46.280 --> 00:35:51.079 the odd thing is Simberg is the author of the most the most incendiary of 469 00:35:51.119 --> 00:35:54.760 the remarks about Man, which I'll repeat him for the listeners who don't know 470 00:35:54.760 --> 00:35:59.519 this. It was Man's the guy of the famous hockey stick and climate change. 471 00:35:59.800 --> 00:36:01.719 He teaches at Penn State. And at the same time that that Jerry 472 00:36:01.760 --> 00:36:07.639 Sandusky guy got busted and fired for being a child molester and a predator. 473 00:36:07.599 --> 00:36:10.599 Ran Simberg wrote, Oh, you know, Michael Mann's at Penn State, 474 00:36:10.880 --> 00:36:16.039 and he molested the data about climate change every bit as much as Jerry Sandusky 475 00:36:16.079 --> 00:36:21.639 blested football player something like that. Okay, pretty wild thing to say, 476 00:36:22.800 --> 00:36:28.639 But the point is Mark Mark Stein went further in a substant critique but quoted 477 00:36:28.679 --> 00:36:32.639 Simberg. So the point is, though, or several points one, I 478 00:36:32.719 --> 00:36:37.960 thought that there was some ratio now between compensatory damages and punitive damages a million 479 00:36:37.960 --> 00:36:42.400 to one seems completely out of wa Yeah, that's unconstitutional. They're going to 480 00:36:42.440 --> 00:36:44.760 lose that, of course. I mean that's what I was. Okay that 481 00:36:44.960 --> 00:36:49.320 that seems easy to me. It has to be camping more than I think 482 00:36:49.519 --> 00:36:53.159 the Supreme Court has. There's this famous case called BMW versus four. Yeah, 483 00:36:53.280 --> 00:36:58.360 this guy sued BMW for a paint scratch on his car, which you 484 00:36:58.400 --> 00:37:01.880 couldn't even notice. I think it was he discovered it had been repainted and 485 00:37:01.920 --> 00:37:06.400 then sold to him, and he I think he won a few thousand dollars 486 00:37:06.480 --> 00:37:08.400 and then he won you know, millions and millions of punis. And the 487 00:37:08.400 --> 00:37:12.679 court said, now, I'm not sure I agree with this actually, but 488 00:37:12.719 --> 00:37:15.039 the court said that the due process clause. You know, it's not a 489 00:37:15.079 --> 00:37:17.920 surprise. I think that it was Justice O'Connor. I think it was the 490 00:37:17.920 --> 00:37:22.199 main motivator of this, you know, the one who, like Casey, 491 00:37:22.320 --> 00:37:25.320 also under the due process clause. I think conservatives have a problem with this 492 00:37:25.400 --> 00:37:30.079 because the Court said, we're just going to say the due process clause requires 493 00:37:30.079 --> 00:37:36.000 period of damages to be no more than ten times the compensatory damages. And 494 00:37:36.079 --> 00:37:37.960 you're like, well, where did that come from? Well, does it 495 00:37:38.039 --> 00:37:42.679 seems right, But why is it due process clause require that there was no 496 00:37:42.880 --> 00:37:46.360 historical showing that was the case. But anyway, that's the rule now, 497 00:37:46.440 --> 00:37:51.199 at least it is so far so that that award should be struck down by 498 00:37:51.199 --> 00:37:53.920 the Supreme by the federal courts at some point. Well at one point of 499 00:37:53.920 --> 00:37:59.920 clarification, wasn't the excessive finds clause also invoked in the pleadings in that case? 500 00:38:00.000 --> 00:38:01.760 I sort of vaguely remember that. I mean, I think that that's 501 00:38:01.800 --> 00:38:06.559 always been an idea that Peela. That's an alternate idea. Okay, that 502 00:38:06.639 --> 00:38:08.719 the excess of fines claus could be involved too. I know that Trump is 503 00:38:08.760 --> 00:38:14.039 gonna appeal. His lawyers have already said they're going to appeal the three hundred 504 00:38:14.079 --> 00:38:19.119 and fifty million dollar judgment as an excessive fine. Those appeals, Oh sorry, 505 00:38:19.119 --> 00:38:22.280 I just want to ask John about appeals in all these cases, actually, 506 00:38:22.360 --> 00:38:25.440 because we talked about you know, I know so much about that case 507 00:38:25.480 --> 00:38:30.159 because John schooled me on it when it was first being litigated. So, 508 00:38:30.880 --> 00:38:34.840 but and we talked about appeals, and I asked you about the New York 509 00:38:34.840 --> 00:38:42.000 Appellate Court, and you said they're pretty bad. But what's the basis if 510 00:38:42.119 --> 00:38:45.440 if Trump were to take it to the New York Appellate Court and they were 511 00:38:45.480 --> 00:38:52.639 not defined any kind of problem with the prosecutor. Some of the different avenues 512 00:38:52.679 --> 00:38:57.400 of appeal, I'm forgetting what they are now. I apologize a long week. 513 00:38:58.800 --> 00:39:04.000 Are any of those appealable from the New York Appellate Court the Supreme Court 514 00:39:04.079 --> 00:39:07.880 to the United States Supreme Court since it is a state law? Oh yeah, 515 00:39:07.039 --> 00:39:10.039 so this is that's what I want to ask. I mean, no, 516 00:39:10.360 --> 00:39:15.320 we have whole courses about this problem. Honestly, it's but in this 517 00:39:15.360 --> 00:39:20.039 particular case. Yeah, no, So, but this is a common problem 518 00:39:20.079 --> 00:39:23.719 all the time, which is what happens when a state does something that you 519 00:39:23.760 --> 00:39:29.280 think is unconstitutional, and then it's done to you in state court, which 520 00:39:29.280 --> 00:39:31.880 is going to be unfriendly to you. How do you get over to federal 521 00:39:31.880 --> 00:39:37.400 court? And so usually this is interesting. You cannot go to a lower 522 00:39:37.440 --> 00:39:42.199 federal court. You have to go all the way up the state system, 523 00:39:43.079 --> 00:39:45.480 and then you go to the US Supreme Court. And you know, if 524 00:39:45.480 --> 00:39:50.239 you think origin original, no, no, they just have they just have 525 00:39:50.320 --> 00:39:54.719 appellate jurisdiction. They just have they have discretionary jurisdiction. But it has to 526 00:39:54.760 --> 00:40:00.679 be a federal issue. So the problem for Trump here is that you know 527 00:40:00.719 --> 00:40:05.679 he's going to claim he was screwed over in areas which conservatives think are matters 528 00:40:05.719 --> 00:40:09.440 of state law, contract law, things like this, or you know, 529 00:40:09.519 --> 00:40:15.320 generally not up to they're not considered federal issues. So this law is strange. 530 00:40:15.400 --> 00:40:20.159 It doesn't require there to be a victim. You don't have to show 531 00:40:20.239 --> 00:40:24.519 laws by any individual. But generally we allow states to define fraud and we 532 00:40:24.519 --> 00:40:30.199 allow states to define contract law. But you do have the right to go 533 00:40:30.239 --> 00:40:34.920 to the Supreme Court if you say it's gone so far that violates my constitutional 534 00:40:34.960 --> 00:40:38.079 rights. So he can go to the Supreme US Supreme Court and appeal on 535 00:40:38.119 --> 00:40:43.440 the ground that this so Steve is saying it violates excessive fine clause or that 536 00:40:43.519 --> 00:40:46.920 it violates due process. That in fact, the reason I think it's interesting 537 00:40:47.079 --> 00:40:52.559 is maybe it's an excessive fine to punish someone when there's been no harm to 538 00:40:52.559 --> 00:40:58.199 any individual right like that could just my definition, be an excessivefying because you 539 00:40:58.239 --> 00:41:00.679 didn't hurt anybody. That's never made it to the Supreme I don't think that's 540 00:41:00.679 --> 00:41:05.920 ever gotten to the Supreme Court. Is actually genuinely a really interesting issue. 541 00:41:06.199 --> 00:41:09.559 So the other just as an example, the common example most people I hope 542 00:41:09.599 --> 00:41:14.840 who listen to this are not familiar with, is being prosecuted. So when 543 00:41:14.840 --> 00:41:19.679 the state prosecutes you, it prosecutes you in state court for criminal law violations. 544 00:41:20.199 --> 00:41:22.960 And you would say, oh, my search and seizure rights are violated 545 00:41:23.039 --> 00:41:27.880 or miranda rights are violated. You have to go all the way up the 546 00:41:27.880 --> 00:41:31.679 state court system and then appeal to the Supreme Court. Then maybe you could 547 00:41:31.719 --> 00:41:37.000 do something called habeas but that only applies to criminal prosecutions, and the courts 548 00:41:37.039 --> 00:41:40.519 are kind of unfriendly to those right now anyway. So this is a reflection 549 00:41:40.599 --> 00:41:45.119 of our federalism. My question is back to this case. Specifically, my 550 00:41:45.280 --> 00:41:50.039 understanding correct me if I'm wrong, is that the only other time this law 551 00:41:50.039 --> 00:41:54.800 has ever been successfully prosecuted against someone, there actually was a case of fraud 552 00:41:54.840 --> 00:42:01.559 where there was in fact victims were in fact victim. So and it's a 553 00:42:01.639 --> 00:42:06.519 law that's been on the book since what nineteen eighty four, I want to 554 00:42:06.559 --> 00:42:09.639 say, I forget, but it's only ever been applied once before, and 555 00:42:10.079 --> 00:42:15.159 in that case there was in fact a victim. At what point could any 556 00:42:15.159 --> 00:42:22.039 honest jurist. Look at this situation here, the nonsense coming out of that 557 00:42:22.840 --> 00:42:28.360 large black woman's mouth about she's going to get Trump this and that, and 558 00:42:28.400 --> 00:42:34.679 the nonsense about the the guy that likes to take pictures of himself nude, 559 00:42:34.719 --> 00:42:37.000 that pretends to be a judge, and oh, you mean, the whole 560 00:42:37.000 --> 00:42:44.039 thing is just it's whatever his name is. What's his name? You mean 561 00:42:44.039 --> 00:42:46.599 Trump's judge. Yeah, the judge in Trump's case. He takes pictures of 562 00:42:46.639 --> 00:42:57.760 himself nude at the gym. He's a nasty old man. Please, But 563 00:42:57.840 --> 00:43:00.599 anyway, the guy is just awful. Never mind. But at what point, 564 00:43:01.239 --> 00:43:06.159 at what point does somebody look at this and say, maybe due process 565 00:43:06.159 --> 00:43:09.519 includes the fact that you actually have to be treated as an individual before the 566 00:43:09.599 --> 00:43:15.000 law and not the subject of some kind of political vendetta. I know that's 567 00:43:15.000 --> 00:43:19.480 not in the Constitution, but neither is innocent until proven guilty. It does 568 00:43:19.519 --> 00:43:22.599 seem to me that our founding fathers did not want to see our legal and 569 00:43:22.679 --> 00:43:29.400 judicial system being used as a political weapon against political enemies. Yeah. Well, 570 00:43:29.719 --> 00:43:31.239 the version of the I was going to ask a version of that question, 571 00:43:31.639 --> 00:43:36.280 John, which was, look, Michael Mann chose Washington, d C. 572 00:43:36.440 --> 00:43:40.239 To bring his suit against mark Stein, and because I think he reckoned 573 00:43:40.239 --> 00:43:44.440 that that would be the most sympathetic jury to claim that these and in fact, 574 00:43:44.519 --> 00:43:47.159 his lawyer, a man's lawyer, in his closing argument, said, 575 00:43:47.239 --> 00:43:51.199 ah, you want to send a message to these climate deniers that they can't 576 00:43:51.199 --> 00:43:54.440 be slandering scientists or something like that. The judge admonished him that that was 577 00:43:54.480 --> 00:43:59.679 an impermissible argument, but the jury heard it right as trials go, and 578 00:43:59.800 --> 00:44:04.960 that seems to and likewise with Trump's case, the obvious political motivation, lucretian 579 00:44:05.039 --> 00:44:07.840 mentions, and an unsympathetic jury in New York. I mean, I don't 580 00:44:07.880 --> 00:44:10.280 know. The Trump case is hard, and he's sort of a one off. 581 00:44:10.320 --> 00:44:14.239 In the case of mark Stein or the January sixth defendants, we can 582 00:44:14.280 --> 00:44:17.559 go on a long list of these. It seems to me that there's a 583 00:44:17.559 --> 00:44:22.719 good argument that our friend Richard Samuelson makes that defendants ought to be able to 584 00:44:22.800 --> 00:44:25.960 succeed in a motion to have their venue move to some other place than Washington, 585 00:44:27.039 --> 00:44:30.360 DC, especially when there's a political angle to it because of the jury 586 00:44:30.360 --> 00:44:37.880 pool is ninety two per Democratic. How are you gonna scream, Oh my 587 00:44:38.039 --> 00:44:44.920 god, no, really, Oh good lord? I guess you're gonna put 588 00:44:45.000 --> 00:44:47.519 that now on the show notes because people are going to wonder why did Steve 589 00:44:47.559 --> 00:44:55.559 and John's scream silenteously podcast? Yeah, I lost my train of thought with 590 00:44:55.679 --> 00:45:00.599 some kind of I don't know what is anyway, my question takes the point, 591 00:45:00.639 --> 00:45:02.199 and you know at that point we need to call halftime here and refill 592 00:45:02.199 --> 00:45:06.039 our whiskey glasses. I need to drink after that. I know that was 593 00:45:06.159 --> 00:45:10.719 horrible. I'm swilling Phil Logan tonight. What do you have? You got 594 00:45:10.719 --> 00:45:14.039 the little froug open there? John? Is that I do? I have 595 00:45:14.159 --> 00:45:17.039 Lafroy only ten years, so that's the best to get. Actually, yeah, 596 00:45:17.079 --> 00:45:21.519 here it is. But just because I felt, yeah, since you 597 00:45:21.519 --> 00:45:25.360 were the moderator or the host, you wouldn't be able to fully sing Lafoug's 598 00:45:25.400 --> 00:45:29.400 praises tonight, so I decided to drink it instead for you. Well, 599 00:45:29.440 --> 00:45:31.000 I'm glad I picked something else. Lucreasy, you're having wine, I think 600 00:45:31.039 --> 00:45:34.800 you said, I am. I am, thank you, guys, I'm 601 00:45:34.960 --> 00:45:37.800 I'm the way. It's been way too tough of a week for me to 602 00:45:37.840 --> 00:45:42.800 get slashed on Scotch tonight. You guys would either you would destroy me or 603 00:45:42.840 --> 00:45:45.679 I would destroy you. I'll just put it that way, and probably you 604 00:45:45.679 --> 00:45:50.880 would destroy me, which is why I decided not to drink scotch. Did 605 00:45:50.920 --> 00:45:54.599 you know that lafrou is a Gaelic word that means the beautiful hollow by the 606 00:45:54.639 --> 00:46:01.199 broad bay? I did not know that the label. Okay, all right, 607 00:46:01.320 --> 00:46:05.920 let's move on to some politics. Uh. Well, you know, 608 00:46:06.000 --> 00:46:08.039 the legal things were going to be with us always. But one thing that 609 00:46:08.119 --> 00:46:12.920 might not be with us is the latest rankings of the presidents from political scientists, 610 00:46:13.079 --> 00:46:15.719 rounded up by the American Political Science Association. And John, I think 611 00:46:15.760 --> 00:46:20.480 you know that. I mean, look, these rankings are simply a barometer 612 00:46:20.559 --> 00:46:23.039 of any logical bias and higher education that not much more needs to be said 613 00:46:23.039 --> 00:46:28.360 about that, because they they you know they Well go ahead, John, 614 00:46:28.400 --> 00:46:30.760 what were your observations? And I'll give you a couple of mind. Maybe 615 00:46:30.880 --> 00:46:32.559 can I make one before he actually gets through the No, Actually, you 616 00:46:32.599 --> 00:46:38.320 guys should defend your profession first. I can't. But my actually, my 617 00:46:38.400 --> 00:46:44.039 first problem, never mind the ideological bias and all that other stuff, is 618 00:46:44.119 --> 00:46:51.119 what a stupid question to survey presidential scholars over? And I want John to 619 00:46:51.159 --> 00:46:53.559 say what that actual question is? They're not asking how did this person, 620 00:46:54.159 --> 00:46:58.800 how did this president fare in this category, this category, this category, 621 00:46:58.800 --> 00:47:01.360 et cetera, et cetera. They who's the greatest and who's the least? 622 00:47:01.719 --> 00:47:06.039 Yeah, what a stupid I mean those were you asked? Kindergarteners what the 623 00:47:06.079 --> 00:47:09.400 heck? Right? And kindergarteners. I had a little friend who was a 624 00:47:09.480 --> 00:47:14.079 first grader once and she was given the assignment to write a letter to the 625 00:47:14.079 --> 00:47:17.599 president. I think at the time it was George Bush, George W. 626 00:47:17.719 --> 00:47:22.239 Bush. And so I still have the letter because I kept it. It's 627 00:47:22.239 --> 00:47:25.079 beautiful. She says, Hello, mister president. I don't know why anybody 628 00:47:25.119 --> 00:47:29.920 would want to be president. What a stupid job. I kind of feel 629 00:47:29.960 --> 00:47:37.800 sorry for you. Good luck being president. Love Mary. Here for listeners, 630 00:47:37.880 --> 00:47:42.440 who I mean, I shouldn't I should describe too quickly. Here's the 631 00:47:42.519 --> 00:47:44.719 list, from best to worst. I'm not the whole list. I'm just 632 00:47:44.760 --> 00:47:46.880 giving you a few of them. First, say what the question was exactly 633 00:47:46.880 --> 00:47:51.000 what they asked. I don't have a handy. The question was, no, 634 00:47:51.119 --> 00:47:53.119 this is it's silly, it said. So. First of all, 635 00:47:53.199 --> 00:47:58.760 they say, oh, this is so scientific, because we only can we 636 00:47:58.800 --> 00:48:05.360 only quizzed Scott in the American Political Science Association in the President's and Executive Politics 637 00:48:05.400 --> 00:48:08.519 section, like you got to organize yourself that way. Five hundred and twenty 638 00:48:08.559 --> 00:48:14.519 five respondents were invited to participate. Only one hundred and fifty four usable, 639 00:48:14.559 --> 00:48:17.519 I don't know what that has a usable responses per received. And they asked 640 00:48:17.559 --> 00:48:24.840 each of those people to rank every president on what for their overall greatness from 641 00:48:24.920 --> 00:48:30.159 zero to one hundred. Zero's a failure, fifty average, one hundred equals 642 00:48:30.199 --> 00:48:34.360 great. Yeah, that's a question. Yeah, and so could answer that. 643 00:48:34.679 --> 00:48:38.039 I'm just gonna give you the first seven. So the top ten Americans 644 00:48:38.039 --> 00:48:42.320 love top ten lists, Well, all right, but we have to stop 645 00:48:42.360 --> 00:48:45.760 at seven. Okay, it's Lincoln, Franklin Roosevelt, George Washington, Theodore 646 00:48:45.800 --> 00:48:50.320 Roosevelt, Thomas Jefferson, Harry Truman. Number seven, Barack Obama, who 647 00:48:50.400 --> 00:48:52.920 moved up from you know, he in right, he's ahead of Dwight and 648 00:48:52.960 --> 00:48:55.800 then eight, nine and ten is eyes an hour, Lyndon Johnson and John 649 00:48:55.880 --> 00:49:00.400 F. Kennedy. Seeing Kennedy down to ten kind of represents a general racial 650 00:49:00.480 --> 00:49:05.199 change and maybe from blowback from his nephew. Right now, but there's Barack 651 00:49:05.239 --> 00:49:08.480 Obahama ahead of you know Madison. Oh well, Donald Trump, of course, 652 00:49:08.519 --> 00:49:12.519 that's you know. I would love to have seen the raw scores they 653 00:49:12.519 --> 00:49:15.239 got from all these people. But I mean, the thing that bugs me 654 00:49:15.320 --> 00:49:21.760 about this so for first, so I wrote a book about presidential Greatness and 655 00:49:21.800 --> 00:49:28.840 Failure about around twenty ten, and there was I started out by looking at 656 00:49:28.840 --> 00:49:31.559 the top ten list that was generated at that time by the Wall Street journal 657 00:49:31.599 --> 00:49:36.559 and the Federal Society, Right, yes, and that list actually aligned much 658 00:49:36.599 --> 00:49:39.679 better. And they did first of all, they didn't just do political scientists, 659 00:49:39.679 --> 00:49:43.760 they did historians, right, because one of the things I found comic 660 00:49:43.840 --> 00:49:49.800 about this study is that the authors reported that the political scientists didn't know enough 661 00:49:49.840 --> 00:49:52.840 about James Polk to answer the question to rate him, right, they just 662 00:49:52.840 --> 00:49:57.360 said there was there. So they identified certain presidents that they got very poor 663 00:49:57.400 --> 00:50:00.840 responses. Nobody rated them because they didn't know enough about it. James Polk. 664 00:50:00.159 --> 00:50:05.239 I mean anyway, so Mexican American War, etc. It's very different, 665 00:50:05.280 --> 00:50:09.679 I mean not extremely but like the if I remember the Federalist Wall Street 666 00:50:09.719 --> 00:50:15.920 Journalist did not have Obama of course at all. It didn't have Johnson and 667 00:50:15.000 --> 00:50:20.960 didn't have Kennedy, right, And I think that's so the presidents who were 668 00:50:21.000 --> 00:50:23.280 on that list that are missing, but I think actually represented what a lot 669 00:50:23.280 --> 00:50:30.920 of historians would have said. It included Eisenhower, Ray again and Jackson and 670 00:50:31.000 --> 00:50:35.760 Polk. Yeah right, and that makes sense to me. I mean, 671 00:50:37.400 --> 00:50:40.199 you know, I just don't see how you could put Obama, Lyndon, 672 00:50:40.280 --> 00:50:44.199 Johnson, and Kenny. I mean, Johnson and Kennedy you could say were 673 00:50:44.199 --> 00:50:49.440 failed presidencies. In fact, oh yeah. In the case of Johnson the 674 00:50:49.480 --> 00:50:52.679 only thing they can say for him is the sixty four Civil Rights Act and 675 00:50:52.920 --> 00:50:57.440 the sixty five Voting Rights Act, maybe the you know, the whole War 676 00:50:57.480 --> 00:51:02.199 on poverty that they probably think was a massive six as because idiots. Yeah. 677 00:51:04.719 --> 00:51:07.679 And and the thing is, usually Kennedy has been dropping in the polls 678 00:51:07.719 --> 00:51:12.400 because there we learned about him, the worse he was. Yeah, yeah, 679 00:51:12.440 --> 00:51:14.760 that's right. That's uh. And like, well it could be a 680 00:51:14.800 --> 00:51:19.039 generational thing. Now. My way to retaliate is, uh, I think 681 00:51:19.079 --> 00:51:23.840 we should rank apsa president American Political Science Association presidents, because if nothing else, 682 00:51:24.639 --> 00:51:28.559 there is one person who is both the President of the United States and 683 00:51:28.599 --> 00:51:31.320 the president of the American Political Science Association, and that's Woodrow Wilson and he 684 00:51:31.400 --> 00:51:35.960 belongs to the bottom of both lists, right or Steve, you can make 685 00:51:35.960 --> 00:51:39.119 it a trifecta. And also at university presidents, since Wilson was one of 686 00:51:39.119 --> 00:51:45.400 those too. All how Claude Dean Gay and the president of Penn would do 687 00:51:45.559 --> 00:51:49.000 on the rankings compared to these guys. Well, I by the way, 688 00:51:49.320 --> 00:51:51.920 by the way, he didn't mention you forgot to mention that. Where does 689 00:51:51.960 --> 00:51:55.679 Biden appear on this list? Oh wait, he's number fourteen? Yeah, 690 00:51:55.760 --> 00:52:00.320 I mean, how do you He's higher than Reagan's high than Grant, is 691 00:52:00.400 --> 00:52:06.159 higher than Jackson, McKinley, and polk missus sane. Okay, So I 692 00:52:06.320 --> 00:52:13.440 just political to so a lot of the data that they actually do present on 693 00:52:13.480 --> 00:52:15.679 this, they don't give you any raw data, but they they break down 694 00:52:15.880 --> 00:52:23.639 some of these rankings by ideology and political affiliation. And so the conservative Republican 695 00:52:24.719 --> 00:52:27.800 what is it, middle of the road whatever they call it, moderate, 696 00:52:28.760 --> 00:52:34.960 democrat and liberal. And my argument and if that's the truth, then you 697 00:52:35.000 --> 00:52:38.679 look at it. The numbers are stupid and unbelievable because Barack Obama still ends 698 00:52:38.719 --> 00:52:43.119 up like the god of the world for conservatives. You know that's not true. 699 00:52:43.519 --> 00:52:47.760 But it might be true, because I have a hard time believing with 700 00:52:47.800 --> 00:52:53.559 how many one hundred and fifty nine surveys they usable surveys right, that there 701 00:52:53.639 --> 00:53:00.719 was an n large enough to be even statistically significant of either conservatives or Republicans 702 00:53:00.719 --> 00:53:05.239 in the American Political Science Association. And further, I'm going to tell you 703 00:53:05.280 --> 00:53:07.960 that a colleague of mine, who is in fact a conservative and a member 704 00:53:08.000 --> 00:53:13.719 of that presidential and executive whatever the heck it is, was not asked, 705 00:53:14.400 --> 00:53:20.360 and he's an active member, was not asked asked to fill out this survey. 706 00:53:20.400 --> 00:53:23.639 He was not contacted. Imagine that he is a very conservative guy. 707 00:53:23.840 --> 00:53:30.880 So I'm guessing that their data are not only stupid kindergarten level stuff, but 708 00:53:30.039 --> 00:53:35.199 it's entirely flawed because they pretended they had conservatives on there and they didn't. 709 00:53:35.679 --> 00:53:39.159 Yeah, yeah, So do you know any conservatives at the APSA, Steve, 710 00:53:39.880 --> 00:53:42.760 Well, no, you know, I'm just looking over there on that 711 00:53:42.840 --> 00:53:45.880 subgroup. Well, I'm looking over past presidents, and there had been some 712 00:53:45.039 --> 00:53:50.239 very good ones like James Q. Wilson, Samuel P. Huntington thirty years 713 00:53:50.239 --> 00:53:52.960 ago. Well, that's right. I was just about to say that Aaron 714 00:53:52.000 --> 00:53:57.400 Woldowski in nineteen eighty five. Right, Actually a conservative said, we don't 715 00:53:57.440 --> 00:54:00.480 have this in law. Why do you guys even care about these as anociation? 716 00:54:00.719 --> 00:54:04.440 Don't? So the readers should, the listeners should know that. The 717 00:54:04.480 --> 00:54:07.960 reason that I raised this originally was because is we're going to have a new 718 00:54:07.000 --> 00:54:10.760 feature that Steve's can introduce. Yeah, whatever that features. This was my 719 00:54:10.880 --> 00:54:16.559 proposal was to make fun of this. Minds really interesting, John, And 720 00:54:16.639 --> 00:54:20.440 I think you'll think so. So then I'll lock it just to get back 721 00:54:20.480 --> 00:54:23.039 at you. So that's fine, you can knock away, but it's very 722 00:54:23.079 --> 00:54:27.639 interesting because, let me tell them, listen, is what we're doing. 723 00:54:28.199 --> 00:54:32.480 Yeah, yeah, yeah, we're doing an article of the week, a 724 00:54:34.039 --> 00:54:36.679 bad one, right, right, And you want to go first? You 725 00:54:36.760 --> 00:54:38.239 want to go first, Lucretia, Well, actually John went first. That 726 00:54:38.280 --> 00:54:42.840 was I already went. I already went. This was going second because I 727 00:54:42.840 --> 00:54:49.760 think John at least to find this interesting. So today on MSNBC's written whatever 728 00:54:49.760 --> 00:54:53.000 they call it, Paul Waldman writes an article doing it. I didn't put 729 00:54:53.039 --> 00:54:58.039 the title down, but it was something like we don't elect a president, 730 00:54:58.079 --> 00:55:01.079 we elect of Roqua. Not quite that, but something along the lines. 731 00:55:01.119 --> 00:55:06.760 In other words, his whole point is everything that we say, John, 732 00:55:07.199 --> 00:55:13.679 everything we say that it doesn't really matter who you elect as president, because 733 00:55:13.719 --> 00:55:20.239 what matters is the vast bureaucracy that backs him up. And his argument begins 734 00:55:20.280 --> 00:55:25.639 with the student loan forgiven, the latest one point two billion student loan forgiveness 735 00:55:25.639 --> 00:55:30.000 of Biden's and talking about how you know this is the thing that could save 736 00:55:30.079 --> 00:55:34.760 Biden's presidency, but not because of the way people think about it, because 737 00:55:34.760 --> 00:55:39.360 this isn't a brilliant move on Biden's part, because Elizabeth Warren or Bernie Sanders 738 00:55:39.360 --> 00:55:45.119 would do much the same thing. This is because in the Department of Education 739 00:55:45.360 --> 00:55:47.960 there's a whole bunch of really clever, progressive people who know what's good for 740 00:55:49.039 --> 00:55:52.039 the country and have been putting together this program. And so please understand, 741 00:55:52.119 --> 00:55:58.039 it doesn't matter if Biden is a senile old man. As long as we 742 00:55:58.159 --> 00:56:04.840 can keep Biden in office, we keep the entire progressive bureaucracy in office. 743 00:56:05.280 --> 00:56:08.519 And it's okay to vote for Biden even though he's getting really, really old 744 00:56:08.559 --> 00:56:14.639 and senile. And the most important thing we need to understand is, yeah, 745 00:56:14.679 --> 00:56:16.840 sure, some presidents. Presidents from time to time, they kind of 746 00:56:16.840 --> 00:56:21.679 set direction, especially things like foreign policy. But let's be honest, what 747 00:56:21.760 --> 00:56:24.519 you really like about Biden was all the great progressive judges he put in place 748 00:56:24.599 --> 00:56:29.119 and the progressive things, you know, and he goes on and on. 749 00:56:29.320 --> 00:56:32.679 You know that at the EPA they don't turn away advocates and they care about 750 00:56:32.679 --> 00:56:36.599 the environment. But if we get I actually have to read this part, 751 00:56:37.440 --> 00:56:40.920 if we get Trump, if we get Trump in office. In contrast, 752 00:56:42.159 --> 00:56:49.199 another Donald Trump term will not only produce all the terrible outcomes of any Republican 753 00:56:49.239 --> 00:56:55.159 presidency, but an entirely separate and utterly horrifying set of consequences unique to Trump 754 00:56:55.440 --> 00:57:00.440 and the extremists who surround him. The widely docum minute goals of Project twenty 755 00:57:00.480 --> 00:57:07.559 twenty five demonstrate how much the dangers of another Trump presidency lie not only in 756 00:57:07.639 --> 00:57:13.159 his own delusions, extensive and growing as they are, but in the increasingly 757 00:57:13.360 --> 00:57:20.000 detailed plans of those who would staff his White House. So what this guy's 758 00:57:20.039 --> 00:57:24.360 admitting first of all is everything we've said it doesn't really matter, but Trump 759 00:57:24.519 --> 00:57:29.880 might Trump might matter. And then then he's in this the last part of 760 00:57:29.920 --> 00:57:31.519 it. And I'll do this very very quickly. Let you guys comment, 761 00:57:32.119 --> 00:57:36.360 is he says, I get it if you know, Biden's only real hope 762 00:57:36.360 --> 00:57:40.440 of winning election is to to campaign on how bad Trump is, and you 763 00:57:42.239 --> 00:57:46.039 the danger of doing that is that if you're gonna concentrate on Trump the personality, 764 00:57:46.880 --> 00:57:52.360 then people are going to turn around and try to concentrate on Biden the 765 00:57:52.440 --> 00:57:55.000 senile, corrupt, old pedophile. He doesn't actually say that, that's my 766 00:57:55.039 --> 00:58:00.039 little editorialism, But the point is that at the end he can't really quite 767 00:58:00.079 --> 00:58:02.679 decide what to do. But what he wants to say is every good thing 768 00:58:02.719 --> 00:58:06.920 you think that Biden did, he didn't really do. It's just because we 769 00:58:07.000 --> 00:58:12.199 had that Democrat guy in the White House that all of the great people throughout 770 00:58:12.199 --> 00:58:15.920 the bureaucracy were able to fundamentally transform our society, which is well, isn't 771 00:58:15.960 --> 00:58:20.199 that the mirror view of what we've been saying in this podcast? Right? 772 00:58:20.679 --> 00:58:23.880 I mean, what's the main point of John Marini for forty fifty years now 773 00:58:24.000 --> 00:58:29.639 is that the permanent bureaucracy is the partisan instrument of the Democratic Party. And 774 00:58:29.719 --> 00:58:34.119 why don't Republicans ever say that directly? Like I just did. I don't 775 00:58:34.119 --> 00:58:36.840 know why, but he can find out and admits it. And yeah, 776 00:58:37.360 --> 00:58:38.440 that, by the way, seems to be a new talking point. I've 777 00:58:38.480 --> 00:58:42.880 seen two or three versions of that argument in the last ten days or so, 778 00:58:43.239 --> 00:58:45.800 and I think it's really really quite striking that they have no awareness of 779 00:58:45.840 --> 00:58:52.440 what it is admitting. The clever thing about it that strikes me from Lucretia's 780 00:58:52.480 --> 00:58:59.280 description is that's turned into a justification for allowing someone who's not mentally capable of 781 00:58:59.360 --> 00:59:02.880 handling the off right. It's a the strange defense of Biden. Yeah, 782 00:59:04.440 --> 00:59:07.559 it's about all though, but but you know, so the fact that democratic 783 00:59:07.599 --> 00:59:13.000 presidents also have been frustrated by bureaucracy too, right, and so you know 784 00:59:13.039 --> 00:59:16.559 that's the that's what the president. That's part of the president's power that makes 785 00:59:16.599 --> 00:59:21.480 the president important feature of our government is that he has the power to stop 786 00:59:21.559 --> 00:59:23.760 the bureaucracy from doing things right. That's part of the part of things that 787 00:59:23.760 --> 00:59:27.880 he does. But I think, as we've talked about, democrats have less 788 00:59:28.639 --> 00:59:31.079 but I mean less less less problem doing that. Let me just read you. 789 00:59:31.159 --> 00:59:36.639 I agree. This is the way he kind of tries to walk a 790 00:59:36.719 --> 00:59:42.679 really thin line. He says, depersonalizing the campaign away from Biden is no 791 00:59:42.760 --> 00:59:46.880 easy task. We are all prone to seeing politics through the individuals who drive 792 00:59:46.960 --> 00:59:53.199 events. It's why not wait, it's igh. Non Fiction authors write books 793 00:59:53.199 --> 01:00:00.480 with characters in scare quotes, and journalists build their stories around what are sometimes 794 01:00:00.480 --> 01:00:07.119 called exemplars, individual people whose stories provide the vehicle to explain it's so stupid. 795 01:00:07.119 --> 01:00:09.400 In other words, this is really a journalistic thing. This is a 796 01:00:09.519 --> 01:00:15.280 narrative, and all we have to do is kind of just slightly turn the 797 01:00:15.360 --> 01:00:19.360 narrative toward Trump and a little bit away from Biden, but back to what 798 01:00:19.480 --> 01:00:22.719 the great things Biden's bureaucracy will do, because Trump will come in and just 799 01:00:24.119 --> 01:00:30.039 destroy that bureaucracy, and he says it may not be possible to get them 800 01:00:30.039 --> 01:00:32.519 to think about Donald Trump and not think about Biden. So then we have 801 01:00:32.599 --> 01:00:37.320 to go back to the great things that Biden did and he's not getting credit 802 01:00:37.360 --> 01:00:43.199 for. Okay, yeah, I'm done because I just think the whole thing 803 01:00:43.280 --> 01:00:46.679 is funny, and like you say, admitting to it, John, actually 804 01:00:46.719 --> 01:00:52.159 admitting that's the amazing thing. All right. My article of my article of 805 01:00:52.159 --> 01:00:55.199 the week is a call of I Caught I Wish I had, written by 806 01:00:55.239 --> 01:01:00.159 Carol Markowitz in The Great New York Post, and the headline is why is 807 01:01:00.360 --> 01:01:06.320 noting married people are happier and kids do better with married parents, so controversial. 808 01:01:07.639 --> 01:01:09.000 The funny thing was, is, I was just going over with one 809 01:01:09.000 --> 01:01:14.559 only classes this week the way Thomas Aquinas talks about the importance of families, 810 01:01:15.760 --> 01:01:19.159 and I said, now, you don't need Thomas Aquinas, or if you 811 01:01:19.159 --> 01:01:22.519 don't believe him, just look at the social science data, which is overwhelming. 812 01:01:22.599 --> 01:01:25.440 And so she makes reference to two brand new books, one by Brad 813 01:01:25.480 --> 01:01:30.199 Wilcox called Get Married, and I forget the subtitle that it's about all the 814 01:01:30.320 --> 01:01:34.400 data he's assembled that shows why married people are happier, why I married, 815 01:01:34.400 --> 01:01:39.679 religious people are happier, why kids grew up in two parent homes much lower 816 01:01:39.760 --> 01:01:43.280 rates of poverty, crime, and all the other problems that come along with 817 01:01:43.280 --> 01:01:45.800 it. The other books she mentioned is actually a little more interesting in some 818 01:01:45.840 --> 01:01:50.199 ways. You know, Brad Wilcox is a conservative at UVA and at AEI. 819 01:01:51.159 --> 01:01:53.280 The other book that's just out is by a professor who I think is 820 01:01:53.519 --> 01:01:58.239 a liberal at the University of Maryland named Melissa Kearney, and the main title 821 01:01:58.280 --> 01:02:01.679 is The Two Parent Privilege, and the subtitles something about you know why I 822 01:02:02.639 --> 01:02:07.000 children go up to two parent households do better and so forth. And she 823 01:02:07.559 --> 01:02:12.400 has been telling the story about how she was urged by her colleagues at the 824 01:02:12.519 --> 01:02:16.599 University of Maryland not to publish the book. Why I think we know why 825 01:02:16.679 --> 01:02:21.559 the left hates families. They're dedicated to Well, you go through the whole 826 01:02:21.599 --> 01:02:25.039 diagnosis of it. But it is a curious thing that for people who've been 827 01:02:25.039 --> 01:02:30.360 saying for fifty years we should follow the science, and especially social science findings. 828 01:02:30.920 --> 01:02:36.119 And when you have such robust findings on the benefits of intact families for 829 01:02:36.199 --> 01:02:39.079 the two people who are married and for their kids, that nowadays that goes 830 01:02:39.119 --> 01:02:44.159 against the left favorite narrative and you have to destroy it and instead Mark Witz 831 01:02:44.199 --> 01:02:46.760 points out, and Mark Judge does also in the Washington Examiner, what's the 832 01:02:46.760 --> 01:02:50.920 New York Times doing right now? They're doing a whole series of articles on 833 01:02:51.000 --> 01:02:54.239 the greatness of polyamory, you know people, and of this currenty woman. 834 01:02:54.320 --> 01:02:59.800 She got reviewed in the Washington Post saying she wasn't open to exploring other possible 835 01:03:00.039 --> 01:03:04.840 also arrangements people in an enter into these days. That's how deeply dug in 836 01:03:04.920 --> 01:03:10.119 the left is on I don't want sorry what I just I don't want you 837 01:03:10.360 --> 01:03:19.280 necessarily to present this as a a sudden kind of discovery or sudden kind of 838 01:03:19.679 --> 01:03:22.519 social science fact. I mean, that's the thing that got Charles Murray in 839 01:03:22.559 --> 01:03:28.519 trouble in the Bell curve. Everybody talks about the IQ tests and that sort 840 01:03:28.519 --> 01:03:34.840 of thing, but the central point of the Bell curve is that, controlling 841 01:03:34.880 --> 01:03:42.400 for all other variables, the number one independent variable that predicts material comfort. 842 01:03:42.480 --> 01:03:49.079 I don't think you used success material comfort and whatever measurable thing there is a 843 01:03:49.199 --> 01:03:53.920 happiness. The number one independent variable is being married. It supersedes race, 844 01:03:54.000 --> 01:04:00.400 it supersedes socioeconomic status, it supersedes everything being made buried in a stable household. 845 01:04:00.800 --> 01:04:06.519 A longitude will say something like twenty thousand young men who were followed for 846 01:04:06.559 --> 01:04:12.679 a period of fifteen something years, and that was it being married. Can 847 01:04:12.719 --> 01:04:16.159 I tell story? Workshop story? So I was at a workshop at Berkeley 848 01:04:16.280 --> 01:04:27.480 and the presenter gave a paper about why marriage was a classic Berkeley thing. 849 01:04:27.920 --> 01:04:32.199 Marriage was the social construct imposed by an oppressive legal system on the poor. 850 01:04:33.360 --> 01:04:36.000 Yeah, And so I raised my hand. I hadn't been to a workshop. 851 01:04:36.000 --> 01:04:39.599 I've been away in Washington for a while, and I came back and 852 01:04:39.639 --> 01:04:42.000 I was like, oh, no. So I raised my hand. I 853 01:04:42.000 --> 01:04:45.360 said, well, but you know, you're trying to help minorities and inner 854 01:04:45.400 --> 01:04:50.920 cities, and yet you are arguing against the single thing we know will bring 855 01:04:50.960 --> 01:04:57.840 those minorities and inner cities out of poverty. Ooh right. Everyone looked like 856 01:04:58.079 --> 01:05:01.679 I was interird in the punch It was like the turn in the punch bow. 857 01:05:01.760 --> 01:05:03.960 It was like, look, I thought it was sort of. I 858 01:05:04.039 --> 01:05:08.199 was like, you're you're giving people advice, and I think, isn't that 859 01:05:08.320 --> 01:05:13.000 Charles Murray's point and coming apart is that all the people who say these things 860 01:05:13.039 --> 01:05:17.559 that Lucretia is reporting, actually college graduates are like eighty five percent married. 861 01:05:18.760 --> 01:05:23.199 I'm sure professors are married at a very high rate there. They don't take 862 01:05:23.239 --> 01:05:27.679 any of the advice that they preach, right, they don't practice what they 863 01:05:27.719 --> 01:05:30.639 preach. Yeah, yeah, that's that's Charles's summary is that he wishes that 864 01:05:31.039 --> 01:05:36.000 the elites who live in Belmont would preach what they practice, which I think 865 01:05:36.079 --> 01:05:41.199 is great. Yeah, yeah, that's right. All right, we have 866 01:05:41.280 --> 01:05:44.639 as usual gone along. Do you have some bad bee things for us? 867 01:05:44.719 --> 01:05:47.519 Lucretia. It has been a great week for those guys. But it was 868 01:05:47.559 --> 01:05:53.960 a great week, but We didn't necessarily discuss all of the right the social 869 01:05:54.400 --> 01:05:57.360 the social trends that led to some of the better ones, but i'll give 870 01:05:57.400 --> 01:06:00.960 it, I'll give it a few. We didn't even discuss the fact that 871 01:06:01.039 --> 01:06:09.280 Big Fanny Willis was probably not entirely telling the truth if you actually believe sell 872 01:06:09.320 --> 01:06:14.679 location data, cell tower location data, because it turns out that for some 873 01:06:14.880 --> 01:06:21.039 reason, a cell phone owned by her, that that incredibly talented and experienced 874 01:06:21.119 --> 01:06:25.960 prosecutor that she brought on in the Trump case had actually been at her house. 875 01:06:27.000 --> 01:06:32.039 What a lot fifty Yeah, a lot in the years prior to being 876 01:06:32.039 --> 01:06:36.480 appointed to that position anyway. But so I do want to get that out 877 01:06:36.519 --> 01:06:42.239 there, just in case anybody missed it. Letitia James sees its, Mara 878 01:06:42.360 --> 01:06:47.519 Lago sells it for seven hundred and forty million. It's probably right. Yeah. 879 01:06:47.559 --> 01:06:51.880 Another one that we didn't discuss at all was the release of Google Gemini. 880 01:06:53.599 --> 01:06:59.679 Oh my god. Yes. Also Google Gemini is an AI much like 881 01:06:59.760 --> 01:07:02.599 chat GBT. It replaced Bard right barred. I don't know. This is 882 01:07:02.679 --> 01:07:06.800 another example of the things that John misses that I know, I miss this. 883 01:07:06.840 --> 01:07:11.159 What is this? So what happens is it came out and you would. 884 01:07:11.320 --> 01:07:15.719 You would ask for it to give you. You'd ask about Abraham Lincoln 885 01:07:15.719 --> 01:07:17.960 and it would pop up with a picture of Abraham Lincoln as a black man. 886 01:07:18.719 --> 01:07:23.480 Yeah, the founding founders are all black. It turned up to be 887 01:07:23.559 --> 01:07:30.159 black. Why because it's been because unlike what some people think, AI has 888 01:07:30.519 --> 01:07:34.119 programmers who create its algorithms, and those algorithms sometimes are biased. In fact, 889 01:07:34.119 --> 01:07:38.960 they're always biased. Well, apparently there was a diversity plug in it. 890 01:07:39.079 --> 01:07:43.159 Somehow all the answers had to emphasize diversity, and it's somehow tilted and 891 01:07:43.199 --> 01:07:46.760 squirted. Essentially everybody came out black. George Washington, I was in a 892 01:07:46.800 --> 01:07:50.159 Hamilton. It's just no, it's been a huge embarrassment this week for Google. 893 01:07:50.280 --> 01:07:54.639 So so a couple on that lines, now that you understand John, 894 01:07:54.679 --> 01:08:00.320 Google execs promised to do a better job of hiding their AI's racism, and 895 01:08:00.360 --> 01:08:04.920 then excited Netflix writers turned to Google Gemini for show ideas. Well. There 896 01:08:04.960 --> 01:08:08.360 was one I don't know if it was the Babylon b but there was one 897 01:08:08.360 --> 01:08:13.920 that said, uh uh, Gemini finally produces a white guy when asked to 898 01:08:13.920 --> 01:08:16.560 produce a picture of Clarence Thomas. That was my next one. Oh sorry, 899 01:08:16.600 --> 01:08:23.159 I'm sorry. Gemini finally draws white Man after being prompted to generate Clarence 900 01:08:23.199 --> 01:08:28.600 Thomas. So, yeah, sorry, I see you kind of just had 901 01:08:28.640 --> 01:08:31.880 to be there. I don't know if you guys know about the big network 902 01:08:31.960 --> 01:08:36.600 failure of AT and T. Oh yeah, I actually have a Yeah, 903 01:08:38.199 --> 01:08:41.800 why is it my cell phone working? So here's here's the Babylon be's take 904 01:08:41.840 --> 01:08:45.199 on it. AT and T customers unaware of network outage since they're used to 905 01:08:45.279 --> 01:08:51.000 not having cells signal anyway? Wasn't that through? That's true? That is 906 01:08:51.039 --> 01:08:56.960 true anyway? Yeah, actually that's true of me, very true. Trump 907 01:08:57.319 --> 01:09:00.439 is the greatest set to America, says man over seeing invasion of America. 908 01:09:00.520 --> 01:09:05.159 And of course you get the point. All Right, I'm done. Did 909 01:09:05.159 --> 01:09:10.680 Camel say anything not worthy? This week? John? Remember you're announce it. 910 01:09:10.680 --> 01:09:15.720 We're replacing the commalism with the new feature about articles. Oh well, 911 01:09:15.760 --> 01:09:17.199 I thought, okay, well good enough. Well then let's get out because 912 01:09:17.199 --> 01:09:24.920 we're really long here tonight. Okay, go ahead, John, all right, 913 01:09:25.119 --> 01:09:30.159 always drink your whiskey, meat, Let's go Brandon and Steve. Uh 914 01:09:30.479 --> 01:09:46.439 that's my news. Next week, game by seven and eight, losing way 915 01:09:46.600 --> 01:09:53.680 wellies and sunflower seeds, drinking lots of carriage. Jesus still get over raised, 916 01:09:53.680 --> 01:09:59.119 but it's not heav These wands are cruel dreams, some kind of sensuous 917 01:09:59.199 --> 01:10:04.960 treat non sacchini beata Jean Burger. We put a big warm bone and a 918 01:10:05.159 --> 01:10:13.600 huge tung of music, cheeseburger and paradise to them out all the fun your 919 01:10:13.880 --> 01:10:25.560 slide nine. Two particular nons imprecise, not just cheeseburger and paradise, hurt 920 01:10:25.640 --> 01:10:31.359 him out the old time sailor man. They need the same. Ricochet joined the conversation