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If no Roman Catholics show up,
then what I will do is shift into

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just the outright refutation of the whole
natural theology project, the Vatican Two and

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the resulting apostasy of the Abrahamic Faith
Center as a result of Vatican Two.

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And we're going to go through in
an indirect way, a means of refuting

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the entire system by literally going through
all of the Old Testament references to the

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Triad. In doing this, what
will end up demonstrating is that there is

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no such thing as a generic Unitarian
God that Muslims, Jews, and Catholics

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worshiped together. In fact, if
the Old Testament teaches the Triad, then

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that means that the only way to
worship God is by acknowledging and worshiping the

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Triad. That would mean that Roman
Catholicism contradicts in its Vatican two presuppositions that

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Muslims also worship the One True God
and share the faith of Abraham. And

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anybody who's debated Muslims, as we've
done for the last five years, debating

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all of the top Muslims except for
his job. He's the last one,

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and we've tried to get him to
do it. Too. What I've learned

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is that there's a commonality, and
people say, we aren't you debating all

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the Jews. Jews don't proselytize and
they rarely debate. But if we undercut

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the entire project of unitarianism, then
all that's left is the Orthodox confession of

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the Triad in this crucial doctrine that
the God of the Old Testament is explicitly

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the Triad. Before we get into
this, we don't have to restrict today's

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discussion just to that topic. I
don't expect any romcaly sex will show up,

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but if they do, we will
go to them and let them make

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whatever arguments they want. They can
have the floor for as long as they

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want to make arguments. We're not
debating what you think about me. We

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all know you hate me. We
all know I m akgb sorcerer. Have

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fine, We got it, So
let's move into the topics and let's hear

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your arguments. That's what I want
to hear. Now. Beyond that,

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though, a couple points on why
this triad thing matters and why we want

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to use this approach. First point
is that using and arguing for the try

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in the Old Testament does not mean
that there's no admission of differentiation. So,

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for example, as one Catholic said
today, are you saying that the

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rabbinic sources of the second and third
century who admit multiplicity, are you saying

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that that's the triad. No,
that's to demonstrate, as I argued in

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the Daniel hookee Getchy debate, that
Judaism in the first, second, third

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century was not monolithic. It was
not monolithically Unitarian. And that's why many

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of the scholars today that we've cited
in that debate, Mollar, in Summer's

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Others, Schaeffer, they admit that
modern Jewish scholarship is coming to recognize that

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there's not a strict Unitarian emphasis in
the Old Testament, as people like Mimondes

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would assume. So it's actually later, at the time of Mamonidies that you

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get this unification and codification of a
strict Unitarian idea of God. And as

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Summers argues, the ancient Hebrew revelation
actually demonstrates what he calls a fluidity,

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so that fluidity is not something invented
by the New Testament. They don't have

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to know the term quote triad.
Okay, So let's get past these low

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level misunderstandings that we hear from people
like Trent or whoever else. We're not

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arguing that they have to understand the
Nicene definition of Homelusius. All they have

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to know is that there's Yahweh,
his angel messenger, who has identified as

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Jesus many times over in the New
Testament, as well as the apologetic of

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Justin Martyr against Tripho. How does
Trifo argue the Trinity? By the way,

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this is prior to the use of
the term triad, Oh, the

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Old Testament exactly trifle the jew is
refuted by the Old Testament, as say

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Maximus says, the triad enlightened Abraham
to worship God one in three and three

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in one. So what is common
in the Orthodox Church. Every Orthodox person

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who's seen the rublev Icon, probably
one of the most famous icons the Orthodox

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Church knows that that teaches the Trinity. It's the icon of the meal with

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Abraham for those that don't know,
and that teaches the triad. It means

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that Abraham at a meal with Jesus, and Jesus says this in John five

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through nine. Literally, the entire
argumentation of John five through nine is Jesus

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arguing with the Pharisees that he was
the one at Mount Sinai. He is

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the one talking to Moses, He's
the one eating with Abraham. And by

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extent you guess what, He's the
one that is in Exodus at the top

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of the mountain when Moses goes up
and has a meal. Who's Moses having

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a meal with same person Abraham's having
a meal with. Now Trent would have

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us believe that they had a meal
with them, but they didn't know who

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they were eating with. They didn't
know who this was, and they didn't

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understand the triad. But later,
upon reading this back into the Old Testament,

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we understand it as somebody perceptively noted. This is as silly as saying

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that the people at the event of
the Big Nine event didn't know what was

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happening, but by a later newscast
they understood what the Big Nine event was.

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This is how silly. This is. No Abraham, as Saint Maximus

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says, has a direct noetic intuition
of the triad, which by the way,

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shows that the Roalmancatholic position is further
refuted by not teaching the Doctor of

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the News. So we're gonna open
it up. I want to go ahead

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and get to these people, and
if we don't get a lot of that,

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I'll just go We're gonna go right
into We're gonna straight to Genesis.

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We're gonna redo the talk that I
did five years ago, which by the

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way, went through about three hours
of text, and upon rereading the Old

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Testament multiple times since then, since
five years ago, guess what I missed

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a ton. That's the amazing nature
of this inspired text is that you can

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read through the Bible a million times
and you're always going to see new stuff.

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That's amazing. That's how amazing it
is. And excuse me. The

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good news is that the Manuka honey
is helping to break up this cough,

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so I will not be hopefully coughing
as much. So now we're going to

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go back through the Old Testament,
starting in Genesis. Now, remember I've

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already lectured through the entirety of Genesis. We have multiple lectures years ago on

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that I've lectured through the entirety of
the Gospel of John. We have lectures

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on the entirety of that. But
now what we're gonna do, depending on

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how this goes and if we get
too many Roman Catholics, I'll just save

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that for the next stream. We'll
just start what we we'll call it our

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Triad lectures, because Trent has a
problem and doesn't know that this term is

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the common used term amongst the Eastern
Fathers for the Trinity, and he tripled

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down as if this wasn't the meaning
of the term, which is laughable.

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And I think it's great because this
is actually provoked, this entire thing,

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and it's gonna end up being ultimately, hopefully a masterful lecture series by God's

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grace to defend the Triad throughout the
entire Testament. And when one fell swoop,

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we will refute the Roman Catholics and
the Muslims and the Jews. How's

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that, Jackie? I said,
I wouldn't debate the ladies, but we

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got a lady go for it.
Hey man, I know that there are

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several people that are trying to come
into this space to engage with you.

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You just quote tweeted me, and
I know I'm going to take the message

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as far as personality assaults, but
some of my guy friends would like to

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come in and speak with you in
a healthy and helpful manner. Can you

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please unblock a few of them?
Well, it depends on who they are.

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Who is it. Well, you
said that there were no Catholics willing

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to engage. You then called me
a drunk mom. No, I made

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a joke calling you a wine mom. It was a joke. Okay.

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Well, some of my guy friends
would like to be able to come speak.

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I know Wagner's blocked. I know
Tom, Okay, I just I

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just hold on. I just unblocked
Wagner and offered him to come in and

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he declined. Okay. Well,
I just think that in good faith,

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maybe you know, less character assassinations
would be great. Okay, you got

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you understand that your whole crew,
hundreds of people have called me every name

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in the book in the last two
days, and I don't care. And

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I make one wine mom joke to
you, and now you've got to have

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a bunch of wag Knights come in
defend you. Again. That's not necessary,

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but I just think it would be
in good faith if you want to

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have an open dialogue. It's an
open forum. That's why you're here to

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some people that would be great.
Unblock who because I unblocked Pine Suck or

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whatever his name is he can come
in here? So where's all the guy

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friends again? Wagner declined to come
in here? Okay, she left.

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Uh, if you're of this party
of the guy friends, you're welcome to

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hop on. Is this you or
will? Are you one of these people?

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You notice how they called me every
name in the book for days on

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end, and I make one wine
mom joke and they're all ready to pounce.

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I mean, this is so ridiculous. Go ahead, Well I'm mute.

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Yeah, Well, I originally it
was going to come out good to

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have a conversation specifically about the rublev
remark that you've made. But okay,

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I mean you don't think that's true? Well, I mean the point thing

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we're making. I mean, well, there is a secularity that an icon

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depicting an event which was written,
an icon written by Christians typologically inferring trinitarianism

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upon an event that happened in the
Old Testament. Okay, so you don't

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think the Old Testament teaches that,
well, I mean it's quite but also

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false. Are not clear from the
manuscript basis. Just looking at the Uline

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epistles, there are various indications that
handling on Theine epistles. It's clear for

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your nine What are you talking about
theline epistles? Oh? Yeahn right,

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But I mean I was going to
have that conversation with you, but I

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think that, okay, well,
let's go to the Old Testament of stuff.

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Do you think that the Old Testament
teachers? Oh so you're not going

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to debate that. Well, I'm
not interested in having a debate about the

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substance of our faith when I think
at hominem attacks are being made in the

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way that you've just made towards Jackie, because I think its us right.

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So you guys have got me every
name of the book. Are two days

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straight? And I make one joke
about a wine mom. I said,

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the wine moms are welcome, and
here you are. And so you want

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to deflect to that, Let's talk
about the Old Testament. So look at

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this. This is what they do. Let's talk about the Old Testament.

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Does it teach the tryout or not? Are you a Catholic? Oh?

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He left? This is what these
people do. So I can't even say

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all the crap they've called me for
two days straight on Twitter, which I

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don't care. I think it's funny. That's why I offer them to come

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and debate, and what does he
do? He shows up with the I'm

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so British and started talking about his
talk. Say Christy, I mean this

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is a great display of the modus
operandi of the average Roman Catholic. Go

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ahead, say Christy, hello jar
Yeah, yeah, oh my good.

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Yeah. I was just wondering,
do you think it's a good strategy to,

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uh, Derek Catholics to come on
it and block like one hundred people

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at the same time. Yeah,
but it's a good strategy to laugh like

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that when you try your talk.
All right, can you take your retainer

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out if you're gonna make an argument
that's I have a yeah, yeah,

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but you understand that, uh,
those are all people that I have debated

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for the most part. Yeah,
Christian Wagner as well, blocking him and

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unblocking him five times with an hour. Yeah, because five times and no

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one time within an hour, because
I offered him to come and he declined,

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no, it wasn't. He showed
multiple proof multiple times. You blocked

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him and then unblocked him, and
they commented on his post. No,

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I didn't know you can still you
can comment on block people, dummy.

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You didn't know that you know that
you can do that on Twitter now.

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And by the way, what does
this even prove? Do you have an

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argument? So Wagner declined to come, you have an argument? What you

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want to? So you don't actually
have an argument. You just came to

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whine and bitch about Twitter games.
It's really funny, isn't it, because

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you guys don't have arguments. Did
you got you got covid? There's a

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lot, there's a good covida stop
there. I just think this is yeah,

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no argument exactly, Alex Wagner declined. I have the tweet popped up

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showing that he wouldn't come. So
this is all the games that these people

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play. What's up, Alex?
This is why I debated. So you

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see why they get blocked. This
is how they act. They get blocked

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and then they act like I won't
debate them because they act like kids.

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Alex, what's up? It's up? It's just started pop on see what

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was going on? So I don't
really have much of a comment on the

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whole try and discussion. I just
uh, but yeah, I guess I

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guess what what you hosted? Like
I show the church fathers, Uh,

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you know what with what they talked
about as far as try it does seem

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pretty convincing. But yeah, I
mean, but I guess it's not even

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a controversial issue. It's not even
a controversial issue. Yeah, so I

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mean, yeah, but yeah,
either way, I mean, I don't

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know. It seems like everyone just
kind of gets gets up a little up

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set, you know, and feels
it feels like they're I don't know,

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they're physicians being challenged. But well, of course, but that that's why,

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that's why, I mean, you
either love what's true. By the

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way, to the person in the
chat here saying that this was all a

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bunch of b s oh, I'm
out, poor you. Yeah, you

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gotta run away. Yeah, here's
the here's the link. I I unblocked

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Pine Suck, I unblocked Wagner and
they wouldn't come. Yeah, Jacob,

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hi, can you hear me?
So first thing, I want to say

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that Christ is king, So hello
everyone, And I just want to say

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that I became Christian like this September. So I'm not the most knowledgeable in

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this topic, but I don't understand, like, what's your Your argument is

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that the Catholics aren't real Christians or
no, it's it's it's not authentic Christianity

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correct as a cult. Okay,
so what are you? Are you Orthodox

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or are protesting Orthodoxy? Okay?
So for me, my whole family were

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Catholics. I'm a Slovakian, so
English is not my first language. So

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so my whole family is Catholic,
right, and I've been kind of brought

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up with it. But i became
really like a Christian only just in September,

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So I'm not the most knowledgeable,
but I would say that Catholics are

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the ones that actually stick to the
faith the closest. Also with Orthodox people,

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so I don't so if they if
they have mutually exclusive doctrines, how

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can they both have the same faith
that they're sticking to. Do you think

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that praying together with Muslims towards Mecca
is the same faith as the Church of

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a thousand years ago? I don't
really think there are Catholics that pray with

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Muslims. Oh really, you haven't
seen the popes doing that in the last

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two decades. Okay, so my
thing you just said, hold on,

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you just said they don't do that. I saw pope dancing with transgenders.

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No, no, no, no, no, no. Both Benedict and

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Francis praying in the mosques towards Mecca. You just said that didn't happen.

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That's my fault that I didn't know. But can I just explain my opinion

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on the veil hold on? Is
that the same faith as the church that's

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calling Crusades a thousand years ago?
I wouldn't say. I wouldn't say that's

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true. Yeah, oh so then
it's not the same thing. Well,

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my belief is that the Vatican is
at the pinnacle of the Catholic Church.

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Of course I'm a Christian, that's
not everybody knows that. Everyone knows that

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man that's like Catholic one on one, So what do you mean? Of

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course it's the kindag with the Roman
Church. Is the Roman Church, but

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the Vatican is filled with Jesuits,
and I'm not the Jesuits. I'm a

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Catholic. I don't take the same
oath as them. Well, what does

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that have to do? What does
that have to do with the pope praying

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inside the moss towards Macca. I'm
just saying that not everything that popes does

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Catholics need to follow. Like I'm
a Catholic, but I well, why

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do you think let me ask you
a question, why do you think he

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did that? Though? Do you
think there's any Catholic doctrines that or documents

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that might back him up doing that? M that's a good question. Like,

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man, I don't know, Like
I don't really like the book that

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we have right now, but I'm
I'm not a liberal, like I respect

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my leaders. I respect him as
the leader of the Catholic Church, right

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even though I don't agree with the
many things that they do. I don't

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agree with Jesuits, like they take
a Jesuit oath like that that has nothing

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to do with Christ. But I
believe. Well, then, so does

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that mean that you reject the Second
Vatican Council's document and teaching at Nostra tate

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that Muslims and Catholics worship the same
God together and that they both share the

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faith of Abraham. Well, I
definitely disagree with this, that all the

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Abrahamic faiths worship the same God.
So you have a Christian impetus there,

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But yet your dogmatic teachings of your
own papal church deny that. So which

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one are you going to choose?
Have you heard of? No? Not?

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Really? Okay, this the document
on the screen. You should look

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it up. That's hate okay,
a vaticantue document. Yeah, you can

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also look up LUMININGENTM sixteen, which
says the same thing. Yeah. Like,

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look, I'm not trying to be
mean, but we're going to go

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to pinesapp because he wants to talk
Pine Sap. You want to talk about

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a pistemology, I'd like to Hey, J can you hear me? Yep?

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Oh, let's go, man.
How's it going good? Do you

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want to talk about epistemology? Oh? Sure? I mean I'm more of

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an ecclesiology guy, to be honest. I can try covering epistemology though.

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Yeah. I just think that if
a classical foundationalists tomistic epistemology fails, then

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the whole Roman Caloic system fails.
Now explain what necessarily your view of our

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vue is? Well? For example, John Paul the Second in the Fetus

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at Ratio defines now theology as reasoning
about God without and in no way referencing

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divine revelation. So this is what
led the Roman Catholic Church to dogmatize the

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idea, particularly that what natural theology
is is precise to that right reasoning about

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God without any reference to divine revelation. That seems to assume and presuppose that

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you're a foundationalist. I've never heard
of Roman Catholicy that's not a foundationalist.

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So that means that things like the
peripatetic axiom, which Aquina says he agrees

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with, or the idea in Aristotle
that what is better known by us versus

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what is better known in itself from
posterior analytics or prior analytics or physics,

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et cetera. That those are kind
of self evident axioms. That seems to

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me to be pretty uncontroversial or not
even contentious in the Roman Catholic world.

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Oh gotcha, yeah, I immittally, I'll be fully honest with you.

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Like I said, I'm not much
of a study or study or of epistemology.

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I kind of talk about its relation
to ecclesiology a little bit, but

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I'm not I'm not too well versed
yet with like what Saint John Paul of

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the Second or Saint Thomas quin has
wrote on that topic. I'm I'm more

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about covering sort of the you know, evidences for papal primacy or sort of

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the fair enough but I mean so, I mean you said evidence is like

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evidence as would go along with evidentialism. So in other words, whatn't this

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what didn't this point kind of go
more fundamental than arguing the ecclesiology. I

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suppose it would. I mean I
tend to just sort of try and look

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at history and look at you know, can Catholic beliefs, right, Can

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say Vatican One, for instance,
be defended in the first century? Well,

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yeah, the first century, but
the first millennium? And uh,

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you know what evidences do we have
from say, the early Church fathers,

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the early Church writers both Eastern and
Western that kind of support that view.

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What do you think of the Chiad
and Alexandria documents? Well, I think

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those documents are not, you know, magisterial pronouncements. But even if I

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grant that they are, I think
they're meant to be more conceliatory. I'm

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trying to look for the word I
know you mean towards the East written right,

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Yeah, not meant really to be
like an apologetical writing that sort of

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defends our position, but more so
a document that is trying to sort of

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come to a meeting in the middle, if you will, in order to

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establish sort of a more ecumenical dialog. I think that is what. I

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think. You're absolutely correct, that's
what those documents are saying. I guess

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I'm just curious, like even if
they're not magisterial, like they still have

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papal approval, and if they are
essentially approved by the Vatican with being these

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official commissions, like if they're admitting
things like chi Ad does the very bottom

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that Rome didn't exercise universal premiscy in
the first millennium, Like, how is

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that not a denial of Vatican One. What I would say is is I

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would go back to Father sylvest Hevaries
the Church of Christ, where he talks

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about sort of the you know,
universal jurisdiction that the papacy has, being

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a power that the pope has always
had, but not necessarily a power that

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always needs to be exercised. So
what that wouldn't be undercut the arguments that

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you guys make from Clement or from
Honorius, assuming from Celestine and others not

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necessarily. The reason why I say
that is because, you know, the

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pope really sort of and I don't
mean this in the way that Vatican One

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would anathematize like always just a supervisor
or something like that, right, but

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in a manner of having this universal
jurisdiction versus how he exercises it, the

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pope doesn't need to be sort of
an autocrat that takes away the role of

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the local bishop. Even remarked about
by Blessed Pies the knife around his papacy

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and around Vatican One, especially after
the German bishops. This is in doctor

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00:25:00,400 --> 00:25:04,000
ed Szhinsky's work on the pape Seed. The German bishop sent him a document

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or a pronouncement about how Vatican One
did not essentially create like what Saint Gregory

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the Great would have, you know, remarked as the universal bishop, this

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idea that like all bishops are not
somehow like true successors of the apostles,

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they don't have their own sort of
Yeah, I'm aware of what you're talking

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about, and I have the Sashensky
book here with me. But what I'm

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getting at though, is that you
said that it may it need not be

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exercised. But the document actually says
that the Roman bishop did not exercise canonical

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authority over the churches of the East. But you're saying that, Well,

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my distinction there would be that it's
a power but it's not necessarily exercised.

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So wait a minute, was it
exercise in the first millennium or was it

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a power he had and he didn't
exercise. I think there might be some

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confusion over what I was saying.
I was not saying that he didn't exercise

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it at all. I was just
saying, it's not a power that he

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needed to necessarily always exercise unless it
was unless it was absolutely necessary to.

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Because there were function of stay a
patriarch or a local bishop. Is that

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of course he'd be controlling his diocese, he'd be controlling his area of jurisdiction.

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So this paper he approved document is
incorrect. Well, I mean,

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i'd have to see the specific passage
there. I mean, it's on the

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screen right here. You're not you
haven't read shady, I mean I've I've

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00:26:18,799 --> 00:26:22,000
glanced over it. I'm not.
I mean, this is a famous passage

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that multiple even phdu Roman Catholics at
the time when it came out, admitted

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that this really undoes vaticant one.
I I highly doubt that, and I

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think quite a bit of people have
actually written quite quite the opposite. Okay,

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but here's the thing about right,
and that's fair that's fair. That's

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fair. No, I understand that. But whether this document is apologetic or

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acumenist in its motivation really says nothing
about whether or not it's an error.

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That's pretty significant if this is a
paperly approved commission. But the reason I

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always go to epistemology in this at
this point in the discussion is that you

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said, well, it's not really
a magisterial document. I don't really have

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to put that into the tier or
the bins of uh, you know,

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00:27:06,799 --> 00:27:11,880
necessary conscience binding documents or whatever.
How is the Roman Catholic? Do you

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00:27:12,079 --> 00:27:18,000
sort out between all the different documents, papal teachings and so forth. How

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00:27:18,039 --> 00:27:21,759
do you know that you're putting them
in the right bins? If you've got

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00:27:21,880 --> 00:27:27,400
extraordinary Magisterium, Universal ordinary Magisterium and
ordinary teaching. How is an individual Roman

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00:27:27,400 --> 00:27:33,839
Catholic? Do you know that you're
actually interpreting this massive documents correctly? Well?

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00:27:33,880 --> 00:27:37,480
I know that I'm interpreting correctly them
correctly based on the authority that they're

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00:27:37,519 --> 00:27:42,599
issued with. I mean, doctor
John Joy writes pretty extensively about when certain

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00:27:44,240 --> 00:27:48,799
uh so hold on? So is
doctor John Joy infallible? Didn't say that

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00:27:48,839 --> 00:27:52,640
he was? Okay? So you're
going so to get the so to get

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00:27:52,680 --> 00:27:57,160
the criteria, you go into a
fallible source. I don't think it's a

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00:27:57,160 --> 00:28:03,480
fallible source necessarily is now infallible doctor
joys and fallible understanding? Is doctor Joy

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00:28:03,519 --> 00:28:08,240
infallible? Is this book infallible?
I never said that it was my friend.

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00:28:08,359 --> 00:28:12,039
Oh, so he's not an infallible
source. So the very criteria is

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derived from a non infallible source.
I mean the argument that you're trying to

350
00:28:18,559 --> 00:28:22,160
make is essentially if I'm using any
book to sort of have an understanding of

351
00:28:22,440 --> 00:28:29,119
No, it's it's actually an epistemic
contradicts the view of the church. No,

352
00:28:29,880 --> 00:28:32,519
no, it's not. It's not
I'm not arguing to contradict the Church.

353
00:28:32,680 --> 00:28:37,359
No, I'm arguing that you don't
have a consistent epistemic principle to know

354
00:28:37,519 --> 00:28:41,880
clearly and from which source you're deriving
the dogmas and putting him in the right

355
00:28:41,880 --> 00:28:45,240
bins because you have a giant mass
of tens of thousands of pages potentially right

356
00:28:45,279 --> 00:28:49,599
that would count as part of quote
Catholic teaching. And so you're saying that,

357
00:28:49,839 --> 00:28:52,319
well, I go to doctor Bill
Joy or whatever his name is to

358
00:28:52,359 --> 00:28:56,160
pull out, uh, these principles
but his book is fallible. So wait

359
00:28:56,200 --> 00:29:03,519
a minute, So where's the infallible
list of the infall dogmas? The infallible

360
00:29:03,599 --> 00:29:10,000
list of the infallible dogmas again comes
from the level at whishments, So there's

361
00:29:10,000 --> 00:29:12,680
not a list. So there's not
a list. There's not a list all

362
00:29:12,960 --> 00:29:18,119
all doctors, so there's not a
list. Is here? So you have

363
00:29:18,160 --> 00:29:22,559
three criteria and then you're like a
Protestant. Yeah, you have three criteria

364
00:29:22,640 --> 00:29:26,279
from a from a fallible book,
and then you're like a Protestant going through

365
00:29:26,279 --> 00:29:29,799
tens of thousands of pages to put
in the right bin. Bad argument,

366
00:29:29,880 --> 00:29:32,880
my friend, he's drunk. He's
not a bad argument. It's a devastating

367
00:29:32,960 --> 00:29:37,319
argument to your position because you don't
know penstemology and from documents, like it

368
00:29:37,319 --> 00:29:38,279
doesn't matter. So how do you
know that he how do you know he

369
00:29:38,359 --> 00:29:41,160
drew them from the right documents?
That's begging the question, that's circular.

370
00:29:41,519 --> 00:29:45,480
He's you have been it. He's
fallible. What you're trying to argue suddenly

371
00:29:45,559 --> 00:29:48,039
is that I, as a Catholic, have to turn off my brain.

372
00:29:48,200 --> 00:29:52,480
No, yeah, you know you
don't have a consistent epistemology. No,

373
00:29:52,599 --> 00:29:55,119
the argument is that you don't have
a consistent of pistemology and you just prove

374
00:29:55,200 --> 00:30:00,000
it. What are you even saying
right now? Yeah? Exactly, exactly,

375
00:30:00,400 --> 00:30:03,680
yeah exactly. So as you see
how you got mad once he got

376
00:30:03,680 --> 00:30:10,279
cornered. Oh yeah, yeah,
you said, what am I even saying?

377
00:30:10,319 --> 00:30:14,559
Bad guy? And now you're going
to the personal attacks, personal attacks,

378
00:30:14,599 --> 00:30:17,440
big dog. You just keep interrupting
and stuff like, no, you're

379
00:30:17,480 --> 00:30:21,279
not you're not answering the question because
you've got you've got calling a basic circular

380
00:30:21,319 --> 00:30:26,359
fallacy about your pistemology. All I
said is that doctor John is his book

381
00:30:26,400 --> 00:30:30,400
infallible, is his book infallible is
an infallible source. You went to a

382
00:30:30,440 --> 00:30:33,359
fallible source. It is what you're
saying. It's what I'm saying, because

383
00:30:33,400 --> 00:30:37,480
you you admitted the book is fallible. You admitted the book is valible.

384
00:30:37,359 --> 00:30:41,640
You admitted the book as fallible.
So you're just begging the question. So

385
00:30:41,720 --> 00:30:45,119
let me guess if I read Urine, ask if I read Cyprian. It

386
00:30:45,119 --> 00:30:51,480
doesn't matter because you don't have a
coherent epistemology. It doesn't matter. You

387
00:30:51,519 --> 00:30:56,200
don't have a coherent epistemology, is
the point. Okay, you're just kind

388
00:30:56,200 --> 00:30:57,920
of screaming to the void. At
this point, I'm screaming in the void.

389
00:30:59,720 --> 00:31:02,039
You went, do you want me
to you want me to explain it

390
00:31:02,039 --> 00:31:03,640
to you for the fourth time?
Do you want me? Do you want

391
00:31:03,640 --> 00:31:07,920
me to explain it for the fourth
time to you? Science? That's a

392
00:31:07,960 --> 00:31:12,119
fallible book. But yeah, that's
begging the question because it's a foul.

393
00:31:12,240 --> 00:31:15,799
You don't know that you have the
right things in the book that are infallible.

394
00:31:15,799 --> 00:31:18,480
That's the point. But here's the
thing. Even if I was to

395
00:31:18,480 --> 00:31:22,240
make an error as a Catholic,
it would not be a damnable error because

396
00:31:22,240 --> 00:31:26,440
that you don't even know that maybe
it is. That's begging the question.

397
00:31:26,519 --> 00:31:30,119
You're just assuming that what's your because
you don't have an epistemic criteria. You

398
00:31:30,160 --> 00:31:34,680
don't have an epistemic criteria that's consistent. You don't have an epistemic criteria that's

399
00:31:34,680 --> 00:31:37,119
consistent. That's the point, Catholic
for me. Here he goes here,

400
00:31:37,160 --> 00:31:40,759
he goes to the personal attacks.
Look at this. You were barely a

401
00:31:40,880 --> 00:31:44,039
Catholic. You were barely a Catholic. Basic attacks. When he melts,

402
00:31:44,759 --> 00:31:48,039
man, dude, you were just
like an angry little man. Yeah,

403
00:31:48,079 --> 00:31:51,680
I'm an angry little man. He
got cornered. Everybody saw his dumb circular

404
00:31:51,759 --> 00:31:56,279
argument and then he immediately goes to
the personal attacks. Did I say anything

405
00:31:56,279 --> 00:32:01,319
about him personally? I kept calling
him back to the basic point and he

406
00:32:01,359 --> 00:32:07,200
starts calling me an angry little man. No, you guys are scumbacks,

407
00:32:07,519 --> 00:32:17,039
straight up dishonest cults. You're dishonest
cult members. That's the champion Pine Suck

408
00:32:17,119 --> 00:32:27,799
that they all wanted me to debate
so bad. What's up? Oh,

409
00:32:27,839 --> 00:32:31,319
hey, what's up? Man?
I'm not exactly a cam just I didn't

410
00:32:31,359 --> 00:32:37,920
realize that's what I just thought.
That was hilarious. I don't understand the

411
00:32:37,960 --> 00:32:49,079
topic, might bed. I didn't
mean to push the button from a point

412
00:32:49,079 --> 00:33:00,720
of view. So you noticed I
kept calling him back to the point on

413
00:33:00,759 --> 00:33:05,160
epistemology, and he immediately went to
a personal attack. Everybody saw that I

414
00:33:05,160 --> 00:33:10,039
didn't say anything mean to him.
Yeah, that was pretty embarrassing on this

415
00:33:10,160 --> 00:33:15,599
It was embarrassing, and Roman Catholics
are embarrassing and I will keep embarrassing them

416
00:33:15,839 --> 00:33:21,039
because this is all they do.
Yeah. Yeah, so people in the

417
00:33:21,119 --> 00:33:22,680
chat, why don't you come on? You know, he didn't you know,

418
00:33:22,720 --> 00:33:27,480
he didn't win that debate. You
guys are such liars. He couldn't

419
00:33:27,519 --> 00:33:31,559
answer a basic epistemological question. He
couldn't give me what the dogmas are.

420
00:33:32,119 --> 00:33:36,319
He said, well, there's three
criteria and go to doctor Bill Joy's book.

421
00:33:36,759 --> 00:33:38,440
Yeah, that's begging the question.
Doctor Bill Joyce fallible. So I'm

422
00:33:38,440 --> 00:33:44,519
going to a fallible source to have
picked out the three infallible criteria. And

423
00:33:44,559 --> 00:33:47,319
that's why he got so mad and
went to personal attacks. Hey, you

424
00:33:47,400 --> 00:33:51,240
guys know he didn't win. You're
full of it. He's got his goons

425
00:33:51,240 --> 00:33:58,319
in the chat. Any one of
you can come on here. Yeah,

426
00:33:58,759 --> 00:34:02,640
what's this place? Will behave from
a lot of these Catholics, and me

427
00:34:02,839 --> 00:34:07,239
being one, just saws it brings
shame to me honestly and in a way,

428
00:34:08,079 --> 00:34:14,719
Well do you why would you be
a Roman Catholic? Well that's the

429
00:34:14,760 --> 00:34:16,920
thing. And and we've talked before, Jay, and it's nice to speak

430
00:34:16,960 --> 00:34:24,840
with you again, But this is
the thing. I'm honestly considering the fact

431
00:34:24,840 --> 00:34:32,880
that Roman Cantholicism is just it's just
a dead end faith, like there's no

432
00:34:34,079 --> 00:34:37,480
hope for it in the future.
What it is now is what's what it's

433
00:34:37,519 --> 00:34:40,480
going to be like for the rest
of the time. And yeah, you're

434
00:34:40,519 --> 00:34:44,599
not going to get a trad pope. First of all, Francis and his

435
00:34:44,719 --> 00:34:51,320
predecessors have already filled the cardinal the
electors with liberals. Yeah, yeah,

436
00:34:51,400 --> 00:34:55,719
exactly, And this is why a
lot of these Catholics are coping so hard

437
00:34:55,800 --> 00:35:00,360
and every single day. That's why
they're acting that they'll have Yeah, and

438
00:35:00,559 --> 00:35:06,800
honestly, I probably am gonna start
thinking about maybe converting because at this point

439
00:35:06,800 --> 00:35:12,639
I have no faith, excuse me, no faith that that Cautholicism can even

440
00:35:12,679 --> 00:35:16,599
be saved at this point. No, yeah, I agree, and I

441
00:35:16,639 --> 00:35:22,000
appreciate those comments to the people talking
smack in the chat again, well,

442
00:35:22,000 --> 00:35:24,639
I'll just go yold over no,
no, no, you keep getting pulled

443
00:35:24,719 --> 00:35:28,320
back to the thing in question,
And if you can't answer the thing in

444
00:35:28,440 --> 00:35:40,400
question, that's the point here.
We got another one. His whole thing

445
00:35:40,480 --> 00:35:44,599
is built on a faulty epistemology.
That's why I'm gonna go to the epistemological

446
00:35:44,679 --> 00:35:51,239
argument. Go ahead, go ahead, Saint Bernard, Can you hear me?

447
00:35:51,360 --> 00:35:55,000
Yep. So I'm obviously not very
knowledgeable on this. So I was

448
00:35:55,039 --> 00:36:00,480
wondering if you could sort of try
to convince me your Protestant right, No,

449
00:36:00,559 --> 00:36:06,199
I'm Orthodox Orthodox, so Could you
try to convince me of pretending from

450
00:36:06,199 --> 00:36:07,519
a view that I know nothing about
the faith? Can you try to convince

451
00:36:07,559 --> 00:36:16,519
me of the objectively points where Orthodoxy
is better than Catholicism. Yeah, I

452
00:36:16,519 --> 00:36:21,679
mean the Orthodox Church has maintained the
correct doctrine of the Trinity. The Orthodox

453
00:36:21,760 --> 00:36:28,000
Church has maintained the practice of the
Early Church of fasting and keeping the liturgy

454
00:36:28,280 --> 00:36:32,400
reverent. The Novus Orto is Protestant
and not reverent. The Orthodox Church has

455
00:36:32,440 --> 00:36:37,960
not accepted the Vatican to the idea
that Muslims and Jews and Christians all worship

456
00:36:37,000 --> 00:36:42,119
the same God, and Ostratate teaches
that is writer on the screen. These

457
00:36:42,159 --> 00:36:46,119
things alone are pretty much enough to
show you right away that the Papal Church

458
00:36:46,320 --> 00:36:51,559
is a cult. Yeah, you
keep on saying that it's a cult.

459
00:36:51,639 --> 00:36:53,199
What kind of things indicated to you
that it's a cult, Because although the

460
00:36:53,239 --> 00:36:58,960
Novus orger Mass may seem like a
bit modernist to you, it doesn't necessarily

461
00:36:59,039 --> 00:37:02,159
mean that it's cult. To their
cult aspect is the manifestation of all the

462
00:37:02,199 --> 00:37:07,800
people acting out and acting like complete
lunatics who can't reasonably talk through their position.

463
00:37:09,320 --> 00:37:13,719
So I'll try to try to reasonably
talk too much. Ill let me

464
00:37:13,760 --> 00:37:15,480
give another example of that cult aspect. A lot of times with a lot

465
00:37:15,480 --> 00:37:19,800
of these people, when it comes
down to these issues, when they get

466
00:37:19,800 --> 00:37:24,400
into the actual documents of their church
and the doctrines, they end up fleeing

467
00:37:24,400 --> 00:37:29,199
to fatama and mysticism. That's also, in my view, a cultic element,

468
00:37:29,239 --> 00:37:32,719
because once the intellectual aspect of it
collapses, then they turn to the

469
00:37:32,719 --> 00:37:39,079
mysticism. That's cool. I think
you're confusing it slowly, because Catholicism does

470
00:37:39,159 --> 00:37:44,079
permit a wide range of views on
a variety of topics. So it's not

471
00:37:44,119 --> 00:37:47,760
necessarily that they're fleeing towards mysticism.
It's just that they're choosing to ignore certain

472
00:37:50,599 --> 00:37:53,280
dogmas of the Church. For example, predestination is one of the areas where

473
00:37:53,280 --> 00:37:58,199
the Church permits a wide range of
topics, and that's why the church necessitates

474
00:37:58,280 --> 00:38:04,559
sometimes that it needs to be somewhat
okay. But but that doesn't really have

475
00:38:04,599 --> 00:38:07,679
anything to do with what we're talking
about today, which is topics like the

476
00:38:07,800 --> 00:38:14,039
Vatican essentially saying that Muslims and Christians
worship the same God. That's simply not

477
00:38:14,239 --> 00:38:16,159
true. No, But I'm getting
around to my point, which is saying

478
00:38:16,199 --> 00:38:20,519
that the Church is not infallible in
all the things that it says. It's

479
00:38:20,559 --> 00:38:28,000
infallible in its ecumenical council teaching,
and this isn't an ecumenical council. Yeah,

480
00:38:28,039 --> 00:38:31,960
I would say that that's correct.
But well, then you just contradicted

481
00:38:32,000 --> 00:38:36,920
because you said that you don't.
So you do think that Catholics and Muslims

482
00:38:36,960 --> 00:38:42,760
worship the same God. I think
that's a complicated issue. Not really,

483
00:38:42,960 --> 00:38:45,000
I mean, do Muslims think that
you worship the same God as they do?

484
00:38:46,079 --> 00:38:52,280
No? Okay, so why is
it complicated? I'm clearly autumnized up

485
00:38:52,320 --> 00:38:54,199
here and all that. Yeah,
I mean, Muslims don't believe in the

486
00:38:54,239 --> 00:38:57,719
Trinity, and they hate the idea
of the Trinity and the deed of Christ.

487
00:38:57,760 --> 00:39:00,719
So they will very clearly in life
you on whether you worship the same

488
00:39:00,760 --> 00:39:07,800
God as they do in a in
a not so friendly way. Simon Simon

489
00:39:07,840 --> 00:39:20,599
of Trent, Hello, yep,
hear, yes, sir? All right?

490
00:39:21,320 --> 00:39:25,360
Uh, why do you have block
blocked? What's the name Wagner?

491
00:39:25,960 --> 00:39:30,440
In those plastic answers? You also
have dogs. I already explained that in

492
00:39:30,519 --> 00:39:34,679
the first twenty minutes. Do you
have an argument or not? Yeah,

493
00:39:34,760 --> 00:39:36,719
yeah, I have an argument.
But the thing is, like you,

494
00:39:36,920 --> 00:39:40,519
I unblocked him and invited. I
unblocked him, unblocked. Dude, I

495
00:39:40,960 --> 00:39:47,440
listen, you choose to Are you
listening? Are you listening? If you

496
00:39:47,519 --> 00:39:52,519
beat them? Beat them? Hey, bro, the stream, Bro,

497
00:39:52,679 --> 00:39:57,760
you barely got on your hey hold
on, I say again, Bro,

498
00:39:58,320 --> 00:40:06,119
just straight up you just more chiefs
Abro? Could you bring me more chiefs?

499
00:40:06,800 --> 00:40:14,599
I want one more and three brito. Bro. See what they do.

500
00:40:15,079 --> 00:40:16,400
This is all they can do is
get on here and yell and cuss.

501
00:40:17,199 --> 00:40:21,239
They're like thirteen year olds. I
love it. Yeah, keep it

502
00:40:21,320 --> 00:40:27,639
up, Roman Catholics, keep it
up. Good job, Peter, more

503
00:40:27,719 --> 00:40:35,199
chiefs Abro. Julian Moore chieves.
Yeah, I already answered everything. He

504
00:40:35,280 --> 00:40:38,920
brought up. The people that he's
talking about. I unblocked and brought them

505
00:40:38,960 --> 00:40:46,320
on. We brought pineesep on.
He couldn't answer the argument. Go ahead,

506
00:40:46,360 --> 00:40:51,440
Peter. You know what. I'm
mute, Jay, I'm looking forward

507
00:40:51,480 --> 00:40:55,159
to your impression of me in a
few seconds here. I'm just curious,

508
00:40:55,280 --> 00:41:00,760
uh, your epistemic foundation. How
is it that you interpret whether it's a

509
00:41:00,159 --> 00:41:07,079
scripture or I don't know what the
Orthodox equivalent of the modern councils is so,

510
00:41:07,119 --> 00:41:08,559
I know there's some make critical councils. How do you interpret that stuff?

511
00:41:08,599 --> 00:41:15,079
What's your epistemological Well, it's just
simply out of hand reject classical foundationalism.

512
00:41:15,159 --> 00:41:17,679
I don't think it makes any sense. It's not defensible because it all

513
00:41:17,760 --> 00:41:22,039
relies on self evidence. And can
you tell me prove to me something of

514
00:41:22,119 --> 00:41:29,800
self evident in your system. I'm
not sure how you answered my question there.

515
00:41:29,840 --> 00:41:31,960
I'm asking how do you use Yeah, so I can say things like,

516
00:41:32,199 --> 00:41:36,400
we have a different epistemology. We
have the idea of a direct perception

517
00:41:36,480 --> 00:41:39,039
of God through the news, the
heart. We believe in more of a

518
00:41:39,159 --> 00:41:45,199
coherence view of truth rather than a
foundationalist view. So I'm not saying that

519
00:41:45,239 --> 00:41:49,280
I believe everything that a coherentist believes
in some secular sense, but I'm saying

520
00:41:49,320 --> 00:41:53,480
more of a holistic epistemology, that
there's not really anything that's a self evident

521
00:41:53,599 --> 00:41:58,679
maxim or foundation that doesn't presuppose other
things. So I believe in more like

522
00:41:58,719 --> 00:42:04,360
a web view of beliefs rather than
a foundationalist guit. So like when you

523
00:42:04,840 --> 00:42:07,079
go to scripture, when you're looking
at the Old Testament, you're deciding that

524
00:42:07,280 --> 00:42:10,639
like Abraham was in fact dealing with
like a triad God or something like that.

525
00:42:12,199 --> 00:42:15,280
Like, how do you know you're
reading that? Right? Well,

526
00:42:15,000 --> 00:42:21,760
I believe ultimately the Holy Spirit is
who teaches the individual. You sound like

527
00:42:21,840 --> 00:42:24,199
a Protestant. Interesting, right,
yeah, you understand that, But you

528
00:42:24,320 --> 00:42:29,039
say that too as a Roman Catholic. The Roman Catholics think that the final

529
00:42:29,119 --> 00:42:32,000
arbiter for the individual is the Holy
Spirit teaching. I don't say that as

530
00:42:32,039 --> 00:42:35,760
a Roman Catholic. Well, you
actually your church does teach that. In

531
00:42:35,800 --> 00:42:37,719
fact, that Borrow argues that all
the time, you didn't know that.

532
00:42:37,559 --> 00:42:42,960
No, I'm a Protestant, so
Protestant, Yeah, yeah, excuse me,

533
00:42:43,079 --> 00:42:46,480
So Saint Simmon the New Theologian teaches
this. But that is a different

534
00:42:46,559 --> 00:42:54,559
question from whether or not epistemic wholism
is true versus foundationalism. Yeah, like,

535
00:42:54,679 --> 00:42:59,320
I can you you're telling me that
like you use a web or something

536
00:42:59,360 --> 00:43:01,039
like that. So that the way
that that's different. Yeah, the way

537
00:43:01,079 --> 00:43:07,880
it's different is that we would say
that whether Protestant, Orthodox or Catholic,

538
00:43:07,920 --> 00:43:14,119
everybody at the at the end of
the day agrees that the way the individual

539
00:43:14,199 --> 00:43:16,400
comes to know is through the teaching
of the Holy Spirit. Where we all

540
00:43:16,559 --> 00:43:21,280
disagree is the means that are used. So the Roman Catholic thinks the ultimate

541
00:43:21,360 --> 00:43:25,360
means are the magisterium and the Pope. The Orthodox thinks that the means are

542
00:43:25,400 --> 00:43:29,719
not restricted to something like that in
some juridical way. But that's actually the

543
00:43:29,800 --> 00:43:32,440
totality of the faith, the direct
experience of God through the Church, the

544
00:43:32,480 --> 00:43:35,719
liturgy of the Sacraments, the lives
of the saints, the Church fathers,

545
00:43:35,800 --> 00:43:42,360
like comunical councils, et cetera.
The Protestant thinks that the individual is deciphering

546
00:43:42,440 --> 00:43:46,280
this basically mainly through the Bible alone. So where we differ is the means,

547
00:43:46,840 --> 00:43:51,519
not the you know, final authority
of the Holy Spirit. So the

548
00:43:51,599 --> 00:43:53,719
question then is, well, who
has the correct means here? What is

549
00:43:53,800 --> 00:43:58,960
the what is the traditional Christian teaching
of the means of knowing God? So

550
00:43:59,519 --> 00:44:02,199
what's interesting to me is like,
when you're going against the Catholic Church here

551
00:44:02,880 --> 00:44:07,480
using scripture as your means to show
that like there's an internal contradiction, right,

552
00:44:08,000 --> 00:44:14,079
would you use scripture in attempting to
notice like an internal contradiction between like

553
00:44:14,119 --> 00:44:16,880
an Orthodox council and scripture. Do
you think that's possible or is it not

554
00:44:17,000 --> 00:44:21,079
possible for them to contradict? No, I don't think the scriptures and the

555
00:44:21,159 --> 00:44:24,880
Council's contradict. But do you think
it's possible for them to contradict? No,

556
00:44:25,039 --> 00:44:28,840
it would it would not make sense
in my paradigm. That'd be like

557
00:44:28,920 --> 00:44:31,440
saying, is it possible that Jesus
didn't exist? Well, I would kind

558
00:44:31,440 --> 00:44:36,519
of undo my entire paradigm. So
is in that the same with the Roman

559
00:44:36,599 --> 00:44:39,960
Catholics? Here that like you're assuming
your paradigm and arguing against them. Do

560
00:44:40,000 --> 00:44:45,239
you not understand that you can actually
debate between paradigms by comparing the paradigms to

561
00:44:45,280 --> 00:44:49,760
see which ones are coherent and can
give account for their presuppositions. That's what

562
00:44:49,880 --> 00:44:52,719
trans and augmentation is. Yeah,
but what again, what you're doing here

563
00:44:52,840 --> 00:44:57,639
is like you're saying that, like, Scripture could find a contradiction in the

564
00:44:57,760 --> 00:45:00,719
Roman Catholic paradigm, but it can't
find a contradiction in my paradigm. Do

565
00:45:00,920 --> 00:45:02,639
you see what's weird about that?
No, there's nothing weird about it because

566
00:45:02,679 --> 00:45:07,239
it's two different systems. So the
problems in their system are not going to

567
00:45:07,280 --> 00:45:10,800
be mirrored in the same for my
system. For example, if the papacy

568
00:45:12,639 --> 00:45:15,920
contradicts itself, that's a contract,
that's a that's a devastating thing to that

569
00:45:16,000 --> 00:45:21,599
whole system. If the patriarch of
Constantinople contradicts himself and becomes a heretic,

570
00:45:21,800 --> 00:45:24,360
that's not devastating to my system because
I've have a totally different ecclesiology. So

571
00:45:24,960 --> 00:45:30,719
the nature of the system will be
the issue that determines whether or not the

572
00:45:30,880 --> 00:45:34,599
question is devastating or not. But
example, he just sees there as an

573
00:45:34,639 --> 00:45:37,000
example of practice. So you're saying, like in practice, like I can

574
00:45:37,039 --> 00:45:40,280
find a contradiction in the Roman system. But again, in the Roman system,

575
00:45:40,280 --> 00:45:44,199
it doesn't matter whether it's in practice
or whether it's the scripture contradicting the

576
00:45:44,239 --> 00:45:49,400
papacy. Any contradiction would invalidate the
system. Well, that's true, but

577
00:45:49,480 --> 00:45:52,880
again, like in principle, the
system itself doesn't admit the contradiction, just

578
00:45:52,920 --> 00:45:57,480
like your system doesn't. Like,
that's the whole point when you're saying that

579
00:45:57,599 --> 00:46:00,519
in print that you can't be contradicted
by sure, But then you're turning to

580
00:46:00,599 --> 00:46:05,000
the Catholic and you're saying, to
the Catholic, I'm just doing I'm doing

581
00:46:05,159 --> 00:46:08,880
internal criticctic. No, I'm doing
I'm doing an internal critique of their position

582
00:46:09,039 --> 00:46:13,360
on their own grounds. You can
try the internal critique on my position as

583
00:46:13,400 --> 00:46:15,719
well, but you're not going to
find a contradiction. That's the difference.

584
00:46:15,920 --> 00:46:21,519
My mind does not contradict. There's
does That's that's the whole point. So

585
00:46:21,679 --> 00:46:23,920
you would say that, like the
ecumenical councils would agree with you that there's

586
00:46:23,960 --> 00:46:28,119
a contradiction here, because isn't that
Didn't you just tell me their system is

587
00:46:28,159 --> 00:46:31,840
that the ecumenical councils are the deciding
factor. No, I said, My

588
00:46:32,079 --> 00:46:37,440
system is church fathers, ecumenical councils, liturgy, lives of the saints,

589
00:46:37,519 --> 00:46:42,599
all of those things go into you
say, you're an internal critique, which

590
00:46:42,639 --> 00:46:45,440
means you have to use of their
system. Dude, Yeah, yeah,

591
00:46:45,519 --> 00:46:47,440
you so you would have to use
their system. Yeah. Did you not

592
00:46:47,519 --> 00:46:51,280
hear me do that with the guy
about classical foundationalism? That was the whole

593
00:46:51,280 --> 00:46:54,960
point. But if to them,
the it doesn't matter whether that's to it

594
00:46:55,079 --> 00:46:58,719
doesn't matter if it's a contradiction.
They don't get to just say, well,

595
00:46:58,719 --> 00:47:01,880
well I don't accept it as a
contract. It does it contradictions aren't

596
00:47:01,880 --> 00:47:07,599
system relative. I mean, I
don't know if it's the ecumenical council is

597
00:47:07,639 --> 00:47:09,679
apparently the authority for them, and
so like if you know the pope is

598
00:47:09,800 --> 00:47:13,119
no, they're not, that's not
even you don't even know their position.

599
00:47:13,199 --> 00:47:15,639
The Pope is the authority, not
the ecminical councils. That's about I think

600
00:47:15,639 --> 00:47:20,519
it's both like it no, it's
actually not. It's actually that the Pope

601
00:47:20,679 --> 00:47:22,960
is above the ecumenical councils and the
only thing that makes an ecumenical council that

602
00:47:23,320 --> 00:47:29,599
is the fiat of the Pope.
All right, well, I don't tell

603
00:47:29,599 --> 00:47:31,760
you. It seems to me that
like you're at the same time saying like

604
00:47:31,840 --> 00:47:36,960
I'm going to critique within their system, but then also like you're denying their

605
00:47:37,079 --> 00:47:40,440
counsels interpretations of these things, like
the councils. I don't even think you

606
00:47:40,599 --> 00:47:45,920
you're not even understanding what the argument
even is. Like if if Roman Catholicism

607
00:47:45,960 --> 00:47:50,840
is a system that's structured in a
certain way such that any dogmatic teaching of

608
00:47:50,880 --> 00:47:54,719
the papacy cannot contradict previous teaching,
if I show a contradiction that invalidates that

609
00:47:54,800 --> 00:47:59,320
system, It's that simple. Yeah, if you show a contradiction and then

610
00:47:59,400 --> 00:48:02,519
show that like can buy the magisterium
they've accepted the correction when we've already done

611
00:48:02,559 --> 00:48:07,000
that with I'll give one example right
here. Noser Tate says that Muslims and

612
00:48:07,159 --> 00:48:13,480
Christians and Jews all worship the same
God. A thousand years ago they called

613
00:48:13,639 --> 00:48:16,159
crusades against the Muslims. Now the
pope goes in praise and moss towards Macca.

614
00:48:16,199 --> 00:48:22,960
That's a contradiction. Again, Like, it seems like you have to

615
00:48:23,000 --> 00:48:28,159
find an ecumenical council that says that
that's a contradiction. But I just cited

616
00:48:28,360 --> 00:48:31,159
the vacumenical council. Do you not
see that the damn document is on the

617
00:48:31,199 --> 00:48:37,800
screen, dude, But the ecumenical
council didn't say that. Yes it does.

618
00:48:37,880 --> 00:48:40,320
It's on the screen in front of
your facy. Yes it does.

619
00:48:42,199 --> 00:48:45,719
It talks. It talks about Benedict
the sixteenth man. What are you talking

620
00:48:45,760 --> 00:48:50,440
about? All right? Well,
can you have you read? Do you

621
00:48:50,480 --> 00:48:52,960
know what nosra tat is? I'm
hop off I gotta go. Oh so

622
00:48:53,000 --> 00:48:55,599
you don't know even know what nos
for tati is? That must be it.

623
00:48:55,679 --> 00:48:58,320
I don't know, because I gotta
go. I'll talk you. Oh,

624
00:48:58,360 --> 00:48:59,800
you've got to go, right,
So he's got to go as soon

625
00:48:59,840 --> 00:49:05,760
as gets pinned down. Yeah,
what'st I'm gonna here goes still repeat my

626
00:49:05,880 --> 00:49:09,400
name? What is no Tat?
I'm gonna head out. If you find

627
00:49:10,119 --> 00:49:13,199
it's on the screen. What do
you mean if I find it it's on

628
00:49:13,280 --> 00:49:19,679
the screen for you? Nora tat
lumagentium sixteen. Again, let's if you

629
00:49:19,719 --> 00:49:22,639
find an example of it's on the
screen. That is it's that is an

630
00:49:22,880 --> 00:49:28,199
You don't understand that's an ecum Do
you understand that's an ecumenical council? Man?

631
00:49:28,320 --> 00:49:32,159
I want to do you understand that
that's an ecumenical council? Does it

632
00:49:32,199 --> 00:49:37,719
talk about any of the sixteenth in
there? Are you this dumb? It's

633
00:49:37,880 --> 00:49:44,360
teaching the thing that he's acting on
interpreted by whom oh m hm yeah exactly,

634
00:49:46,960 --> 00:49:53,039
yeah, exactly. See, it's
interpreted by him. Notice the uh

635
00:49:53,639 --> 00:50:00,840
never ending circle here. Now I
can't go and cite his ecumenical councils because

636
00:50:00,840 --> 00:50:04,559
it's interpreted by who. Oh it's
me. So once he gets pinned down,

637
00:50:04,599 --> 00:50:07,280
he didn't really he didn't know what
nos Trette was. He didn't know

638
00:50:07,280 --> 00:50:10,119
what Lumgentium was when it's on the
freaking screen from Vatican too. That's ec

639
00:50:10,239 --> 00:50:15,840
Medical Council. What a bunch of
clowns. And he's not even Catholic,

640
00:50:15,960 --> 00:50:20,000
He's a freaking Protestant. Why is
he trying to argue the Catholic position doesn't

641
00:50:20,000 --> 00:50:28,199
even know their documents? And m
I just wanted to say a little something

642
00:50:28,239 --> 00:50:30,639
about what you're talking about here,
because for the last couple of weeks and

643
00:50:30,679 --> 00:50:36,360
I've been studying a bit about Romantholicism. I read the Sishinski's Philioquay book and

644
00:50:36,480 --> 00:50:38,960
I got a lot of that,
and I watched a couple of the Wagoner

645
00:50:39,039 --> 00:50:44,840
debates with some other Orthodox people,
and I came to a conclusion that the

646
00:50:45,000 --> 00:50:50,119
Church of Aquinas and the Church of
Poopius, of the Church, the Church

647
00:50:50,159 --> 00:50:54,320
of Lombard and the Crusades, it
doesn't anymore. And the Roman Catholics that

648
00:50:54,440 --> 00:51:00,480
come online talking about Hi, the
church He's going to some high go through

649
00:51:00,519 --> 00:51:04,000
this renovation where it's going to go
back to what it was before Vatican Two.

650
00:51:05,000 --> 00:51:10,599
It just seems so unrealistic. Warping. Yeah, yeah, exactly yesterday,

651
00:51:10,719 --> 00:51:15,079
I think it was yesterday, the
day before I watched a video I

652
00:51:15,159 --> 00:51:17,599
think it was put out by this
channel called Orthodox Church, and it was

653
00:51:17,840 --> 00:51:27,559
just a liturgical comparison between like certain
patriarchal churches versus the Vatican in Rome under

654
00:51:27,599 --> 00:51:30,920
Francis. And the way that some
Roman Catholic Catholics will get out of the

655
00:51:31,719 --> 00:51:37,639
liturgical abuse argument is just to say, well, this is going on in

656
00:51:37,760 --> 00:51:43,679
some strange church out there, some
weird priests somewhere. Yeah. Yeah,

657
00:51:43,760 --> 00:51:47,639
And I was watching this video and
I saw like the liturgy in Russia and

658
00:51:47,800 --> 00:51:52,199
it was very it was it looked
a lot like it should and then it

659
00:51:52,320 --> 00:51:59,400
cut to the Vatican and Pop Francis
was here and it was literally a bunch

660
00:51:59,480 --> 00:52:04,000
of like a Spanish or Mexican choir
singing a folks song during the liturgy,

661
00:52:04,400 --> 00:52:07,320
and my mouth was dropped. I
was thinking to myself, High on Earth,

662
00:52:07,519 --> 00:52:12,360
can these trots think that there's ever
any going to be any salvation for

663
00:52:12,440 --> 00:52:16,320
the Roman Church because of the stuff
that's going on in m This is why

664
00:52:16,480 --> 00:52:20,679
they act out the way they do. They deep down know that it's not

665
00:52:20,880 --> 00:52:23,800
going to be fixed because the cardinals
are stacked with a bunch of libs,

666
00:52:24,440 --> 00:52:29,760
and so they're just acting out and
spurgging out because they're they're losing their minds.

667
00:52:29,840 --> 00:52:31,800
Their system has collapsed. The only
people left in that system are like

668
00:52:31,880 --> 00:52:37,679
people that are totally ignorant or authority
worshipers or weird skittled LARPers on the internet.

669
00:52:37,000 --> 00:52:39,559
So, by the way, this
is not this is also people understand

670
00:52:39,599 --> 00:52:44,000
that it's actually a pote Francis that
oversaw a puppet mouse. I don't know

671
00:52:44,000 --> 00:52:45,840
if people know that. Have you
seen that? I think I have.

672
00:52:46,039 --> 00:52:51,679
Yeah, there's a one with where
he's performers around him. Yeah no,

673
00:52:51,760 --> 00:52:54,239
no, no, no, an
actual puppet mass, not not just not

674
00:52:54,480 --> 00:53:01,960
just him out the ceremony where he's
uh got like a bunch of uh clown

675
00:53:02,039 --> 00:53:07,280
troop around him. Let me find
you the actual papal puppet mass Let me

676
00:53:07,320 --> 00:53:10,679
scroll back to it here. Okay, well, uh, another thing is

677
00:53:10,840 --> 00:53:16,119
just that you know these trods like
uh, that group right there, you

678
00:53:16,199 --> 00:53:20,400
know, like Wagner and all them. I don't really watch them a lot,

679
00:53:20,840 --> 00:53:23,119
but they seem to be operating in
a reality that just isn't there anymore.

680
00:53:24,000 --> 00:53:28,800
They they they talk about tumism a
lot, and I'm always thinking,

681
00:53:28,920 --> 00:53:37,360
okay, what is the tomistic system
That's what I was gonna say. Yeah,

682
00:53:37,440 --> 00:53:39,800
they threw it. They threw it, Like Aquina says, I think

683
00:53:39,840 --> 00:53:43,079
he's still a doctor of their church, right, but they don't even believe

684
00:53:43,119 --> 00:53:47,239
in tumism anymore. And it's it's
it's kind of like I think you made

685
00:53:47,239 --> 00:53:52,119
a point of saying that the Roman
Church after the after the Second into this,

686
00:53:52,639 --> 00:53:55,559
just into the second landing, but
kem more of a worldly apparatust than

687
00:53:55,559 --> 00:54:00,559
anything spiritual, and it kind it's
just it just be a big thank you

688
00:54:00,679 --> 00:54:05,960
know, man, Everything going on
in room today is the consequences of that.

689
00:54:06,639 --> 00:54:10,000
They've stirred up and ravished Europe to
the point where no Europe just completely

690
00:54:10,079 --> 00:54:15,280
rejects everything Gothlic cares it apart because
of everything that they put you it's an

691
00:54:15,280 --> 00:54:20,320
atheism factory. Why would we not
think that clown mosses are an atheism factory.

692
00:54:20,559 --> 00:54:28,599
So here's Pope Francis right here officiating
his puppet mouse. You know,

693
00:54:40,800 --> 00:54:57,320
there's Pinocchio there, there's Jesus and
the puppet mass. Yeah exactly. It's

694
00:54:57,400 --> 00:55:00,840
like one uh, one mistake that
I appreciate that, yeah, one mistake

695
00:55:01,079 --> 00:55:13,440
that ah Jackie wants to come back. What's up one Alexandrian heretical action a

696
00:55:13,679 --> 00:55:17,440
J. I'm here as the group's
secretary. Again, I think that you

697
00:55:17,639 --> 00:55:23,199
might have accidentally removed Peter from the
space. I removed him. What the

698
00:55:23,320 --> 00:55:29,920
follow up question was the source of
interpretation? Do you have an answer for

699
00:55:30,039 --> 00:55:34,920
that? So wait a minute.
You think that as a Roman Catholic you

700
00:55:35,079 --> 00:55:37,840
can't or as anybody else that you
can't go and read the documents from the

701
00:55:37,920 --> 00:55:44,199
ecumenical councils, I have to go
to another interpreter. I'm not here to

702
00:55:44,320 --> 00:55:47,360
debate on his beat that I'll relay
the message from the Protestant. That was

703
00:55:47,440 --> 00:56:07,079
his question. Okay, thank the
Martin, we got ragged the inn.

704
00:56:08,400 --> 00:56:15,880
Who what's up? Hey? Man? It's like cool to see you here

705
00:56:15,360 --> 00:56:22,519
fighting with the ignorance of the people. Glood to stumble on this and your

706
00:56:22,639 --> 00:56:29,760
work seems perfect. It's the flow
from the YouTube drove me here. And

707
00:56:30,199 --> 00:56:36,000
I can see that people on x
or Twitter cannot see the life feed.

708
00:56:36,119 --> 00:56:39,320
I have double monitors so I can
have in. Okay, do you have

709
00:56:39,400 --> 00:56:42,760
a do you have a question or
a topic you want better? What what's

710
00:56:42,880 --> 00:56:52,519
up? Okay? So let's see
what would be the binding Like you said

711
00:56:52,559 --> 00:56:59,800
about this web, thinking about this
this in the web way, What would

712
00:56:59,840 --> 00:57:12,159
be the proper solution for people to
not divide themselves but find themselves in common

713
00:57:12,320 --> 00:57:19,840
with those threads in this web,
if you know what I mean. Honestly,

714
00:57:19,880 --> 00:57:21,559
I'm not sure what you mean.
I don't mean to be mean,

715
00:57:21,639 --> 00:57:24,960
but tonight today's topic isn't really supposed
to be tag although I will go into

716
00:57:25,039 --> 00:57:30,320
that if that's the only thing that
people want to talk about, But I'm

717
00:57:30,360 --> 00:57:42,360
not sure what you mean about common
threads in that? King Lasar Hello,

718
00:57:43,800 --> 00:57:46,840
Yeah, what's up? Yeah?
I just firstly, I did have a

719
00:57:46,960 --> 00:57:51,880
question. I don't know if this
will fit, but it's about orthodox ecclesiology

720
00:57:52,000 --> 00:57:53,519
that I've just been looking into that
I couldn't flint an answer, and I

721
00:57:53,599 --> 00:57:59,760
figured you'd probably have a quick response
for it. But first of all,

722
00:57:59,760 --> 00:58:02,960
I just wanted to say that I
was looking forward to seeing people more educated

723
00:58:04,000 --> 00:58:07,280
than me attempt to speak about the
Roman Catholic position, but just simply,

724
00:58:07,360 --> 00:58:10,679
no one is willing to address the
issues, and I don't know what it

725
00:58:10,840 --> 00:58:15,719
is, and I don't know if
it's an attempt. A lot of them,

726
00:58:15,760 --> 00:58:19,920
I know they do accept Vatican Two, and I'm not sure if you're

727
00:58:19,920 --> 00:58:23,639
aware, but Pope clicks this the
third I believed officially and infallibly taught that

728
00:58:24,000 --> 00:58:30,840
Islam is paganism. So it's a
clear contradiction. Yeah, yeah, it's

729
00:58:30,119 --> 00:58:32,519
it's a clear contradiction of the document. I don't know if you know we're

730
00:58:32,559 --> 00:58:36,519
willing to accept that or whatever.
So I will say I'm disappointed in the

731
00:58:36,599 --> 00:58:39,280
turnout of the quote whatever. Roman
Catholics who have come to debate. My

732
00:58:39,440 --> 00:58:45,599
question for you was, just if
a patriarch in because they all have equal

733
00:58:45,639 --> 00:58:51,480
authority in the Orthodox system, right, if a patriarch were to teach heresy

734
00:58:51,719 --> 00:58:57,519
or apostasize, where's the onus for
the you know, the expulsion out of

735
00:58:57,559 --> 00:58:59,960
the body of the church is it? Does it have to be taught by

736
00:59:00,000 --> 00:59:02,480
a certain number of patriarchs or is
a thing to do with the pentarchy or

737
00:59:02,639 --> 00:59:07,920
how does that function? No?
I think usually ask me. I think

738
00:59:07,000 --> 00:59:10,519
one thing that people misunderstand about Orthodoxy, especially when it comes to these kinds

739
00:59:10,519 --> 00:59:15,719
of issues, is that most of
this stuff is local. So most things

740
00:59:15,760 --> 00:59:19,880
are decentralized in the Orthodox Church,
and pretty much everything like that happens at

741
00:59:19,920 --> 00:59:22,400
a local synodal level as well.
So the church is run by synods.

742
00:59:23,320 --> 00:59:28,440
So if a bishop or a priest
or a person was excommunicated, most of

743
00:59:28,480 --> 00:59:31,400
the time that happens in a synod. If it's somebody more a prominent,

744
00:59:31,519 --> 00:59:35,960
like a patriarch, then that usually
takes more time, and it takes more

745
00:59:36,119 --> 00:59:40,519
of a gathering of support from other
bishops and other patriarchs to make that move.

746
00:59:40,599 --> 00:59:44,159
That's usually what you see in the
first thousand years of the church,

747
00:59:44,599 --> 00:59:49,400
where in many cases we have many
patriarchates and many bishops doing that very thing.

748
00:59:49,480 --> 00:59:52,480
Going into schism, there's removal of
communion. So the things that people

749
00:59:52,519 --> 00:59:57,360
point to in the modern Orthodox Church, like the schism between how are the

750
00:59:57,400 --> 01:00:01,519
emerging schism between a Yeah, is
actually fairly common in the first thousand years

751
01:00:01,559 --> 01:00:06,280
of Christianity. I see, it
just takes longer, right, right,

752
01:00:06,400 --> 01:00:08,840
And do you think a good resource, like an historical example that would be

753
01:00:08,920 --> 01:00:13,519
the Oriental I'm not aware of their
split, but eventually I assume that the

754
01:00:13,519 --> 01:00:17,039
Eastern Orthodox basically agreed that they are
Neophicites, I think, right, so

755
01:00:17,159 --> 01:00:22,440
that they aren't a part of your
church. Yeah, They're a little more

756
01:00:22,480 --> 01:00:27,000
complicated because there's a lot of history
of like the Jacobites, for example,

757
01:00:27,159 --> 01:00:31,079
that was one guy later on basically
suddenly ordaining like dozens and dozens of priests

758
01:00:31,119 --> 01:00:35,280
and bishops out of nowhere. And
that's pretty late in the game, after

759
01:00:35,320 --> 01:00:38,159
there had already been a severance at
Epicis and Calcedon, so there's kind of

760
01:00:38,280 --> 01:00:45,400
like a long, protracted, difficult
history with them. There was a stempt

761
01:00:45,440 --> 01:00:50,760
to reconcile at the Fifth Council with
all of the Monophysites, which wasn't very

762
01:00:50,800 --> 01:00:55,119
successful, but it did solidify our
dogma of and I apostatize and all that.

763
01:00:55,360 --> 01:01:00,960
So I would say, you know, it really began ends at Ephesus,

764
01:01:00,119 --> 01:01:05,559
but then it uh you know,
continues into the Fifth Council and the

765
01:01:05,639 --> 01:01:07,880
Six Council as well, because the
six Council is really two wills and two

766
01:01:07,960 --> 01:01:14,719
energies, is against the Monothelites,
who are versions of Monopsides. I see,

767
01:01:14,840 --> 01:01:17,119
So do you think, But if
there were this is a little bit

768
01:01:17,159 --> 01:01:19,920
more I don't know if you would
agree, but it's a little bit more

769
01:01:20,000 --> 01:01:22,360
innate. But if you have someone
like a lunatic, like let's say,

770
01:01:22,400 --> 01:01:28,360
the patriarch of Constantinople preyed in a
musque Alla Prancis you know, like what

771
01:01:28,440 --> 01:01:31,039
would happen, you know what I
mean, Well, they're supposed to be

772
01:01:31,159 --> 01:01:36,320
canonically rejected. That in other words, the ancient canons, for example,

773
01:01:37,079 --> 01:01:38,760
which are accepted at Trollo, and
I think the Six Council will say that

774
01:01:38,840 --> 01:01:44,719
if you pray in a synagogue,
you're excommunicator. So it's a fact I

775
01:01:44,800 --> 01:01:49,639
think you're supposed to be that.
I mean, I'm not positive that we

776
01:01:49,719 --> 01:01:54,400
would necessarily have the same like Latte
sententia idea that later Latin canon law.

777
01:01:54,559 --> 01:01:59,039
Yeah, yeah, the Catholic ideas. I think those are What usually happens

778
01:01:59,079 --> 01:02:05,039
in the East is that at although
an individual in a situation might have the

779
01:02:05,199 --> 01:02:09,639
right to remove themselves from a bishop
or a patriarch who openly started preaching heresy.

780
01:02:10,119 --> 01:02:13,960
For example, when Nosuria started teaching
heresy, a lot of people left

781
01:02:14,000 --> 01:02:16,159
his church. They had the right
to do that. But eventually, but

782
01:02:16,599 --> 01:02:23,239
even even Cyril and people were considering
the Storius still a representative of the church

783
01:02:23,639 --> 01:02:30,400
until there was a sonodal condemnation I
see. Okay, So basically, like

784
01:02:30,480 --> 01:02:35,800
with the situation with MP and EP, like we're at the stage of canonical

785
01:02:35,880 --> 01:02:40,320
discipline where there's a removal of communion. The next stage would be excommunication,

786
01:02:40,519 --> 01:02:45,119
so it would get really really serious
then. I mean, I'm not saying

787
01:02:45,159 --> 01:02:49,599
it's not serious now, but it's
like it's not full full severance, because

788
01:02:49,639 --> 01:02:52,360
in the Orthodox view, there's like
stages to this. It's not like a

789
01:02:52,079 --> 01:02:57,760
blacker white thing. Okay, I
see, all right, yeah, and

790
01:02:57,800 --> 01:03:00,280
I definitely would Look, do you
think that the example of Nestorius is a

791
01:03:00,320 --> 01:03:05,719
good example because I looked in that
a lot for Catholic ecclesiology in terms of

792
01:03:05,800 --> 01:03:07,119
the situation with the current popes,
you know, I won't get into it,

793
01:03:07,519 --> 01:03:10,679
but the in terms of Eastern Orthodox
ecclesiology, you think that would be

794
01:03:10,719 --> 01:03:15,000
a good example to follow, like
how Mystorius was eventually condemned. I think

795
01:03:15,119 --> 01:03:19,559
yeah. I think again, there's
like there's not a one size fits all

796
01:03:19,599 --> 01:03:22,960
answer, because for example, if
I'm at if I'm under some bishop and

797
01:03:23,079 --> 01:03:28,159
I know directly that he's like continuing
to pre cherite, then I would be

798
01:03:28,639 --> 01:03:32,719
justified from leaving, right, But
that doesn't necessarily mean that everybody else in

799
01:03:32,760 --> 01:03:36,840
the church knows what's going on,
or that they're deprived of the grace of

800
01:03:36,880 --> 01:03:38,480
the sacraments because they don't know yet. So there's I think there's a little

801
01:03:38,480 --> 01:03:43,239
more leeway. There's a little more
leeway in the Orthodox view about understanding that

802
01:03:43,679 --> 01:03:49,440
it's not like a blackout, like
everybody's grace is deprived. It's it's more

803
01:03:49,519 --> 01:03:53,320
so public. When there's a public
synodal rejection of the person is when we

804
01:03:53,360 --> 01:03:58,519
would say that at that point you
have to avoid that person. Does that

805
01:03:58,559 --> 01:04:00,960
make sense? Yeah, It's definitely
something I want to look into because it's

806
01:04:00,960 --> 01:04:05,199
one of the it's like one of
the major things I don't understand about Eastern

807
01:04:05,320 --> 01:04:11,960
Orthodoxy because I have been, you
know, submerged so much in the Roman

808
01:04:12,000 --> 01:04:14,719
Catholic idea of having a pope that
can phase the count. I don't know

809
01:04:14,760 --> 01:04:17,119
if someone rejected that earlier, but
yeah, you were right in saying that

810
01:04:17,719 --> 01:04:20,679
it is the pope who gives the
ecumenical council the authority. So I don't

811
01:04:20,679 --> 01:04:24,880
know. Yeah, yeah, I
mean there's probably not an easy uh.

812
01:04:26,039 --> 01:04:30,800
John mcguckin's book is pretty good on
Cyril and Nestorius in the whole history.

813
01:04:30,920 --> 01:04:33,559
Like John, sorry, what was
the last name? Mcguckan st. Cyril

814
01:04:33,599 --> 01:04:38,159
of Alexander, the Christological controversy,
the first one hundred and fifty pages is

815
01:04:38,199 --> 01:04:41,239
the history of it, and then
it goes into the christology of both of

816
01:04:41,320 --> 01:04:45,639
them, and that really kind of
gives us the whole picture and like where

817
01:04:45,800 --> 01:04:51,440
the two Monophysites and Orthodox parted ways, assuming Nestorians and Orthodox party ways.

818
01:04:53,079 --> 01:04:57,400
But it also will give insight into
me Fsite monofice. I appreciate part,

819
01:04:57,960 --> 01:05:00,280
so I'll definitely look into it.
Also, want to say, looking forward

820
01:05:00,280 --> 01:05:03,480
to the I think you Si mentioned
a series much like I don't know if

821
01:05:03,519 --> 01:05:06,079
you. I think you do know
him though Sam Chamund has a series of

822
01:05:06,199 --> 01:05:09,679
trinity in the Old Testament. I
didn't know he did that. No,

823
01:05:10,840 --> 01:05:15,039
Yeah, I really value that resource, especially in debating against Islam, because

824
01:05:15,079 --> 01:05:17,599
that's the whole basis of continuity between
our religions. You know, of the

825
01:05:17,639 --> 01:05:21,599
Old you know, divorce it right, you can't really debate his loan anymore,

826
01:05:21,639 --> 01:05:25,079
you know, Yeah exactly, I
mean I think that and also to

827
01:05:25,239 --> 01:05:31,599
appreciate that like that will also undercut
the Jewish approach because I'd have been fallible.

828
01:05:31,639 --> 01:05:34,119
You're missing the whole point of the
argument. So Marco, do you

829
01:05:34,159 --> 01:05:39,239
want to come and make an argument
or do you just want to spam the

830
01:05:39,360 --> 01:05:50,320
chat? I mean, it's ridiculous. Go ahead, Nick, It's like

831
01:05:50,440 --> 01:05:58,840
they don't understand what an internal critique
is. Go ahead, Nick, Oh,

832
01:05:59,360 --> 01:06:05,559
sorry, I have a question.
It's mostly I'm an Eastern Orthodox myself.

833
01:06:06,400 --> 01:06:15,280
The question is in regards of different
autocatholices, different different what autocephalist churches.

834
01:06:17,119 --> 01:06:23,519
So when when there's there there are
sometimes some awkward moments in history,

835
01:06:24,000 --> 01:06:28,800
like for example, there was a
brief moment where Georgian auto cathualist church was

836
01:06:28,840 --> 01:06:33,639
absorbed into Russian one, then it
re emerged again, and then first,

837
01:06:33,960 --> 01:06:41,239
if I believe correctly, Greeks and
then the Russians reinstated. I admit that

838
01:06:41,320 --> 01:06:46,000
the autocatholic Is there any kind of
dog mane in regard to the period like

839
01:06:46,119 --> 01:06:51,199
let's say, in this weird in
between period, like what happens to I

840
01:06:51,320 --> 01:06:56,639
guess people who practice in the church, Like are they deprived of grace?

841
01:06:56,800 --> 01:07:00,079
What happens in that moment? You
know what? What? Who? How

842
01:07:00,079 --> 01:07:08,840
would they be to private grace?
Don't understand? So essentially, if if

843
01:07:08,920 --> 01:07:15,079
it's what happens in between moments when
like let's say a church is absorbed and

844
01:07:15,159 --> 01:07:17,840
then it regains auto carefully, does
it make sense? If not, then

845
01:07:18,440 --> 01:07:27,440
absorbed by, absorbed by who.
I guess it goes into some historic communition.

846
01:07:27,519 --> 01:07:30,000
I guess it's natural. Sorry,
it's okay, I just I'm not

847
01:07:30,119 --> 01:07:40,400
I'm not sure. I don't know. Let's see Gian Como, that would

848
01:07:40,440 --> 01:07:58,199
be good. I'm mute, gian
Como, do you want to I am

849
01:07:58,280 --> 01:08:06,719
mute. We'll just keep playing the
papal puppet mass Jihan Como. Do you

850
01:08:06,719 --> 01:08:13,320
want to speak or not? You're
on? Good? On mute John Como

851
01:08:13,599 --> 01:08:17,079
Roman Catholic dude, you got the
Pope's flag in your bio. Do you

852
01:08:17,119 --> 01:08:30,119
want to talk or not? Okay, don't talk whatever, U Marina?

853
01:08:42,640 --> 01:08:45,920
Why are the tradcats in the chat
not calling in? Marina? Do you

854
01:08:45,960 --> 01:08:59,359
want to mute and talk? Ok? Marina? All right, she dropped

855
01:08:59,399 --> 01:09:08,520
off. Joe. The topic is
Catholicism. So that's our topic today.

856
01:09:10,199 --> 01:09:15,000
Hey, can you hear me?
Okay? So I grew up rooman Catholic,

857
01:09:16,000 --> 01:09:23,680
and you know, I was told
we're infallible, and just recently,

858
01:09:23,680 --> 01:09:27,600
in the past couple of years,
I've really been questioning everything because I'm twenty

859
01:09:27,640 --> 01:09:31,079
three, so I've been paying a
lot more attention the past four years.

860
01:09:31,199 --> 01:09:36,439
Tavi is really wokeing up. And
then as well, Nostra a Data just

861
01:09:36,560 --> 01:09:44,399
recently learned about all that. How
we are saying that the the Jews and

862
01:09:44,520 --> 01:09:49,760
the Muslims worshiping the same God.
And so then in addition to that,

863
01:09:53,880 --> 01:10:00,039
Thatican to is the masculinizing the church. Did r Instance and Francis say that

864
01:10:00,560 --> 01:10:06,359
the church was too masculine? Yeah, they're purposefully calling to demasculinize it.

865
01:10:06,439 --> 01:10:14,720
That's their own words, right,
nuns without habits. And then we have

866
01:10:14,920 --> 01:10:20,760
two thousand years of recognizing the Jews
is perditious in our mass, and then

867
01:10:21,239 --> 01:10:26,239
they remove the words perdicious Jews.
Yeah, now you have to say that

868
01:10:26,319 --> 01:10:30,119
they're their elder brothers, and then
they're still part of the Covenant exactly.

869
01:10:30,560 --> 01:10:38,239
And it's we brought in aber Rabbi
Abraham Herschel to write to help write Nostra

870
01:10:38,760 --> 01:10:44,560
A Data. This is a Talmudic
Jew who the Vatican too brought in to

871
01:10:44,720 --> 01:10:47,840
help guide the council. Yeah,
now tell that to the tridecats by the

872
01:10:47,880 --> 01:10:50,359
way. All right, so I
appreciate that, but we're going to move

873
01:10:50,399 --> 01:11:12,319
on. Jay Goldman, Yeah,
I'm mute, Jay, do you want

874
01:11:12,359 --> 01:11:21,680
to talk? And I'm mute man. Are you there? Hello, Sarah,

875
01:11:21,720 --> 01:11:28,760
what's up all right? How you
doing? Brother? What's up all

876
01:11:28,840 --> 01:11:32,479
right? Uh? I just kind
have a question. How do you explain

877
01:11:34,359 --> 01:11:45,640
the Lord allowing the Pope and the
Catholic Church conquering America? The what conquering

878
01:11:45,800 --> 01:11:48,079
America? All Right? That guy's
trolling. He has to be trolling,

879
01:11:50,960 --> 01:12:02,680
that's right, j hear me.
So I'm looking into orthodoxy right now,

880
01:12:03,960 --> 01:12:09,600
and I've just seen examples. Well, Catholics say that those examples of the

881
01:12:09,760 --> 01:12:15,399
pope like deposing patriarchs and bishops and
outside of his jurisdiction. How would you

882
01:12:15,439 --> 01:12:17,960
explain that? Well, the fact
that he does that doesn't mean that he

883
01:12:18,039 --> 01:12:23,479
should have done that. If you
look at the example of Saint Aaron as

884
01:12:23,920 --> 01:12:29,159
he rebukes Pope Victor for doing that
and Victor backs down. Okay, okay,

885
01:12:29,159 --> 01:12:33,399
thank you. And not to be
hostile or anything like that, but

886
01:12:34,000 --> 01:12:39,039
I feel like if you allowed your
opponents to speak, you know, like

887
01:12:39,159 --> 01:12:43,359
an an attack their ideas, it'd
be more credible. Well, but you

888
01:12:43,479 --> 01:12:46,479
understand that the dude that came on
a minute ago, for example, didn't

889
01:12:46,479 --> 01:12:51,479
want to talk about or address the
actual issue. So you think that I'm

890
01:12:51,520 --> 01:12:55,479
talking over people when I'm pulling them
back to the point that they're trying to

891
01:12:55,560 --> 01:13:02,239
deflect away from. Yeah, thanks
to Jay. Yeah. I mean the

892
01:13:02,520 --> 01:13:08,359
conversation was fine with that guy until
he didn't want to stay on topic and

893
01:13:08,439 --> 01:13:12,239
wanted to avoid the very point I'm
making. So people think I'm like,

894
01:13:12,319 --> 01:13:15,640
oh, you just talk over people. No, if I keep pulling people

895
01:13:15,720 --> 01:13:19,520
back, it's not just to talk
over them, it's because they're not addressing

896
01:13:19,680 --> 01:13:24,520
or dealing with the challenge. And
that's a trick that people do in debates

897
01:13:24,640 --> 01:13:28,800
where when they're pinned down or if
there's something that's difficult, then what you

898
01:13:28,960 --> 01:13:31,560
do is you go on a red
herring chase, you go off, you

899
01:13:31,680 --> 01:13:38,039
deflect. I mean, deflection is
like classic debate technique. I just don't

900
01:13:38,079 --> 01:13:45,239
let people deflect and then people so
you're talking over and be mean beacon hello,

901
01:13:45,720 --> 01:13:49,079
no car Yeah. Okay. By
the way, I hope there's no

902
01:13:49,880 --> 01:13:55,920
blood from earlier to say I didn't
mean to offend you or anything. So

903
01:13:56,640 --> 01:14:00,600
I had a quick question, since
I'm currently discerning one of the most compelling

904
01:14:00,680 --> 01:14:06,439
pieces of evidence I find that I
haven't seen you discuss extensively, is that

905
01:14:06,600 --> 01:14:13,560
there are sixty seven or maybe it
was sixty six Lords miracles, and the

906
01:14:13,640 --> 01:14:16,920
reason. One of the Catholic arguments
I hear is that the miracles are not

907
01:14:17,319 --> 01:14:23,359
just in isolation. There was an
apparition that said these miracles were going to

908
01:14:23,479 --> 01:14:28,119
happen in regards to a matter of
church doctrine, and then they were scientifically

909
01:14:28,199 --> 01:14:31,359
attested by modern doctors like the one
that was on the sixty minutes interview I

910
01:14:31,439 --> 01:14:35,520
watched that. How do you make
sense of that personally? Yeah, I

911
01:14:35,840 --> 01:14:43,000
don't accept any miracle claims as any
proofs of anything in this regard because would

912
01:14:43,079 --> 01:14:47,000
you say that Mary's supposed appearance at
the Coptic Church ins Ito in Egypt,

913
01:14:47,000 --> 01:14:53,239
which will see by giant crowds,
does that prove an ophetism? I know

914
01:14:53,359 --> 01:14:57,359
that some Catholics accept it, but
others don't, and it's not recognized by

915
01:14:57,399 --> 01:15:00,600
the Vaticans, So I'm not sure
if it's relevant to that line of argument.

916
01:15:00,800 --> 01:15:04,039
So wait a minute. So now
it's only what the Vatican recognizes I

917
01:15:04,399 --> 01:15:09,720
think. So that makes sense because
the Vatican has a team that authenticates those

918
01:15:09,800 --> 01:15:12,319
specifically, they got a team,
they got a team on it. Okay,

919
01:15:12,720 --> 01:15:15,039
uh So, But what I'm saying
is that whether there's a Vatican team

920
01:15:15,159 --> 01:15:18,439
on it or not. Like if
I'm an office site comes to you and

921
01:15:18,520 --> 01:15:24,359
says that Mary appeared at our church, so that proves our church, how

922
01:15:24,399 --> 01:15:27,640
are you going to just how are
you going to adjudicate between these? It's

923
01:15:27,680 --> 01:15:30,119
not going to work by saying,
oh, well there's a team in Rome

924
01:15:30,199 --> 01:15:31,720
that's assigned to this, you know, the intereresting that's begging the question.

925
01:15:31,760 --> 01:15:34,760
The point is that miracles alone are
not going to prove or disprove any of

926
01:15:34,840 --> 01:15:39,720
this, right, I agree.
But the reason that I find the Lord's

927
01:15:39,760 --> 01:15:45,239
one specifically compelling is because it isn't
just like where some people claim they saw

928
01:15:45,439 --> 01:15:51,319
Mary on the church. It's they
have scientifically a test in Aria, Okay,

929
01:15:51,439 --> 01:15:57,640
And so scientists go to Jerusalem and
they observe and do documentaries and tests

930
01:15:57,680 --> 01:16:00,680
on the Holy Fire. So you
understand now it's just rival science claims.

931
01:16:02,520 --> 01:16:08,199
That's true. I think I think
rival science claims should probably play a part

932
01:16:08,239 --> 01:16:11,000
into people's decisions. Yeah, I
don't. I think this is ridiculous,

933
01:16:11,159 --> 01:16:13,960
Like, how is this going to
determine between what's the true and the false

934
01:16:14,000 --> 01:16:17,760
faith? It's as silly. I
mean, Paul and the other Christians did

935
01:16:17,920 --> 01:16:25,119
signs and miracles have regulations. What
does Galatians say, Uh, I can

936
01:16:25,199 --> 01:16:28,520
not ask for signs, the only
one who'll make what want? What does

937
01:16:28,560 --> 01:16:32,079
relations one say? I don't know, I don't know, not familiar with

938
01:16:32,079 --> 01:16:34,199
reglations. Want. I'm not trying
to be mean to you, but like

939
01:16:34,359 --> 01:16:38,640
this is very important for this topic. What does Paul say about signs and

940
01:16:38,720 --> 01:16:44,640
wonders and apparitions? Uh? The
only verse I know regarding signs and wonders

941
01:16:44,720 --> 01:16:46,199
is the one where the only one
he'll be given is the sign of Jonah.

942
01:16:46,199 --> 01:16:48,479
Okay, Well, see, you
need to be way more familiar with

943
01:16:48,600 --> 01:16:54,520
your Bible than you do to try
to investigate doctors and scientists investigating lords,

944
01:16:54,560 --> 01:16:59,560
because Paul says in Romans one excusean
Galationians one not to believe any apparition or

945
01:16:59,600 --> 01:17:02,920
claim to miracle if it contradicts the
dogmas that have been handed down by the

946
01:17:02,960 --> 01:17:09,800
Apostles. So again, this very
point shows that Roman Catholics and people interested

947
01:17:09,800 --> 01:17:13,760
in Roman Catholicism way off base.
You've got people out here don't know what

948
01:17:13,840 --> 01:17:16,079
the triad means, they don't know
what Galatians one says, but they're over

949
01:17:16,119 --> 01:17:20,119
here trying to do scientific They got
a ghostbuster's team in the Vatican that's on

950
01:17:20,279 --> 01:17:27,359
the case of Lords. Come on, Joe trad Cat in the chat.

951
01:17:27,439 --> 01:17:30,119
I don't know who, what your
profile is, what is your profile name?

952
01:17:30,119 --> 01:17:32,520
And I'll bring you on. I'm
happy to bring you on because if

953
01:17:32,680 --> 01:17:38,199
you're saying that the papas, the
apostatizing becoming modernist is not pre Orthodoxy,

954
01:17:38,359 --> 01:17:41,520
yeah, I'm pretty sure it does, because what else is the successor to

955
01:17:41,560 --> 01:17:46,159
the Orthodox Church in the first thousand
years? Go ahead, Joe, Yeah,

956
01:17:46,239 --> 01:17:49,399
hijay, thanks for having me on. I just like I might have

957
01:17:49,560 --> 01:17:54,119
like a quick question or two,
but I also wanted to say, like

958
01:17:56,840 --> 01:18:00,479
like coming into like the kind of
like the Twitter drama that was happening like

959
01:18:00,520 --> 01:18:05,159
in the hour or two leading up
to the space, like like for any

960
01:18:05,479 --> 01:18:10,840
of like the Roman Catholics that are
here. I was there's like this pull

961
01:18:10,960 --> 01:18:14,560
respector account and he's like he's got
this, you know, he does like

962
01:18:14,640 --> 01:18:19,359
all these AI images of Pope Francis
to like make him look bad as He's

963
01:18:19,439 --> 01:18:23,359
like, yeah, it's ridiculous,
yeah exactly. And so it was like,

964
01:18:23,640 --> 01:18:25,880
is he gonna do is he gonna
do one of France? Is he

965
01:18:25,960 --> 01:18:29,439
gonna do an Ai of Francis and
the puppet Mass here with the Here's a

966
01:18:29,560 --> 01:18:33,520
Pinocchio, Here's Pinocchio with Francis's puppet
mass. Yeah, I mean we don't

967
01:18:33,520 --> 01:18:38,279
we don't need Ai to show that
stuff, but they need Ai to make

968
01:18:38,359 --> 01:18:41,560
him look cool exactly. Yeah.
But I just wanted to point out how

969
01:18:41,800 --> 01:18:45,960
like slimy some of these guys are
because when I was when I saw you

970
01:18:45,039 --> 01:18:48,640
were gonna do the debate space,
I'm like, okay, I actually because

971
01:18:48,640 --> 01:18:51,720
I'm a catechy human in the Orthodox
Church. I have been for like half

972
01:18:51,760 --> 01:18:56,680
a year now, largely thanks to
your material. But I was like,

973
01:18:56,760 --> 01:19:01,000
okay, so I I really want
to see like some serious roum Catholics debate

974
01:19:01,560 --> 01:19:09,479
Jay, because like I want to
see if because Papp was in there and

975
01:19:09,560 --> 01:19:14,800
he's uh making dumb epistemology arguments and
getting mad and calling me names once he

976
01:19:14,800 --> 01:19:17,680
couldn't answer it. Yeah, and
like this, uh this like Pop Prospector

977
01:19:17,720 --> 01:19:23,560
guy who I tagged, he like
sets up his own space and he says,

978
01:19:23,760 --> 01:19:27,479
oh, like I'm challenging J.
Now, yeah, he sets the

979
01:19:27,520 --> 01:19:30,000
exact same time, yeah as the
space I already set up. And then

980
01:19:30,039 --> 01:19:32,640
he can say, well, you
didn't come to my space. I mean

981
01:19:32,680 --> 01:19:36,840
this is when he's already like posting
about it and saying you're a coward and

982
01:19:36,880 --> 01:19:41,279
stuff, and I'm like, you
know what, like, because like I

983
01:19:41,359 --> 01:19:45,920
haven't been like a cradle Orthodox,
I'm like reasonably open to changing my worldview

984
01:19:46,000 --> 01:19:49,720
if the right arguments are presented.
But then I just see this like slimy,

985
01:19:50,680 --> 01:19:53,920
nasty behavior by these guys, and
I'm like, you know what,

986
01:19:54,039 --> 01:19:58,199
I feel like way more confident now. They're like, I'm making the right

987
01:19:58,279 --> 01:20:00,199
decisions. So I just want to
say, like two guys who think that

988
01:20:00,399 --> 01:20:04,119
this is this is the way to
do it, it's not, because it

989
01:20:04,279 --> 01:20:09,319
just it turns people away. And
so yeah, I just I just kind

990
01:20:09,359 --> 01:20:11,520
of wanted to say that, Yeah, I appreciate that, Joe. Yeah,

991
01:20:12,640 --> 01:20:15,840
many years to you. I hope
you enjoy the process of catechumen it.

992
01:20:15,920 --> 01:20:23,319
Now this guy is saying he's trying
to get on here, trad cat,

993
01:20:23,359 --> 01:20:39,880
I don't see your Elfrico, Oh
here you go, Okay, go

994
01:20:39,920 --> 01:20:47,479
ahead, finally, what's up man? So uh So, I think that

995
01:20:47,640 --> 01:20:53,399
among a lot of American whether it's
Catholic, Orthodox, and especially the Protestants,

996
01:20:53,600 --> 01:20:58,199
there tends to be an over intellectual
intellectualization of things. And I often

997
01:20:58,239 --> 01:21:00,560
think this is because you know,
I think that Christianity, you know,

998
01:21:00,720 --> 01:21:02,880
I know, you just went off
on like the Galatians one, and you

999
01:21:02,920 --> 01:21:06,840
know, these supposed operations can't do
this. Well, let's let's break before

1000
01:21:06,840 --> 01:21:09,840
I get into that. I wanted
to say that, like, you know,

1001
01:21:09,960 --> 01:21:12,760
I think that in many parts of
the world, these like these miraculous

1002
01:21:13,279 --> 01:21:15,600
things like oh, my grandma goes
to drink coffee with a virgin marriage.

1003
01:21:15,760 --> 01:21:19,800
I'm not saying, you know,
we have to base our faith entirety on

1004
01:21:19,880 --> 01:21:21,880
that, you know, but we
do have to believe in the miraculous.

1005
01:21:23,079 --> 01:21:26,720
I agree with that, yeah,
of course, because you know, without

1006
01:21:26,720 --> 01:21:32,800
the Resurrection, were nothing. But
I definitely do think that certain miraculous things

1007
01:21:32,840 --> 01:21:36,199
of the Church, of the Catholic
Church definitely do prove us, you know,

1008
01:21:36,479 --> 01:21:42,720
ultimately. So if it proves you, then you're an evidentialist. I

1009
01:21:43,159 --> 01:21:46,000
think though the Bible tells us by
their fruits you shall know. Well,

1010
01:21:46,119 --> 01:21:50,119
but Jesus, you remember the story
of the guy who's in uh torments and

1011
01:21:50,199 --> 01:21:55,079
he says, you know, let
me have a drip of water to cool

1012
01:21:55,159 --> 01:21:58,720
my tongue. And then he says, Lord, let me come back and

1013
01:21:58,840 --> 01:22:00,880
let me tell my brothers less come
to this place of torment. What does

1014
01:22:00,960 --> 01:22:06,159
Jesus say to him, I don't
remember, you don't remember the story.

1015
01:22:08,039 --> 01:22:11,960
Yeah, so the tradcats don't read
the Bibles. That I mean, I'm

1016
01:22:11,960 --> 01:22:14,680
not trying to be mean, but
like, this is a well known story,

1017
01:22:14,800 --> 01:22:16,239
right. He says that, yea, though one rides from the dead,

1018
01:22:16,279 --> 01:22:18,840
they will not believe. They have
Moses in the prophets. What does

1019
01:22:18,880 --> 01:22:21,520
that mean? I mean, I
read the Bible. But at the same

1020
01:22:21,560 --> 01:22:30,920
time, what does that mean?
The man that's in torments says, Lord,

1021
01:22:31,039 --> 01:22:34,439
let me go back, and if
I rise from the dead, I

1022
01:22:34,560 --> 01:22:39,720
can warn my brothers lest they come
to this place of torment. Jesus says,

1023
01:22:41,199 --> 01:22:43,800
they have Moses in the prophets,
and if they don't believe that,

1024
01:22:44,399 --> 01:22:46,359
they won't believe even if one rides
from the dead. What does that mean?

1025
01:22:48,560 --> 01:22:51,640
Well, that goes to show that
just because certain miracles can take place,

1026
01:22:51,840 --> 01:22:55,680
that doesn't mean that this is that
this is going to convince everybody.

1027
01:22:55,680 --> 01:23:00,000
But I don't but see, But
that's the point is that miracles, themsels

1028
01:23:00,079 --> 01:23:02,760
else can't be the deciding factor because
there's everybody out there in the world claiming

1029
01:23:02,800 --> 01:23:10,520
miracles. Hindus claim miracles does do
miracles. No demon demons can influence things,

1030
01:23:10,560 --> 01:23:13,319
you know, the Bible at So
how do we know when it's a

1031
01:23:13,399 --> 01:23:16,880
mirror a demon versus a tribute by
the fruits by their fruits. Okay,

1032
01:23:16,960 --> 01:23:20,399
I grant you that, But that
means then that miracles themselves aren't approved.

1033
01:23:20,439 --> 01:23:24,399
They're in They're an attestation to the
true faith. They follow the true faith,

1034
01:23:24,640 --> 01:23:26,680
so they're going to be there,
but they can't be the thing that

1035
01:23:26,760 --> 01:23:30,239
proves it. Sure, but you
would you would expect the true faith to

1036
01:23:30,279 --> 01:23:31,960
have these things. I agree,
that's exactly what I'm saying, correct,

1037
01:23:33,159 --> 01:23:36,600
But they can't be themselves the proof
is the point. I think that's a

1038
01:23:36,600 --> 01:23:41,520
stronger. I think that you know
certain things. I say, you're at

1039
01:23:41,520 --> 01:23:44,399
debate with the with natural theology,
and I think natural theologies are inherently true.

1040
01:23:44,479 --> 01:23:46,560
And I think this point is it's
inherently true. Okay, So now

1041
01:23:46,600 --> 01:23:50,239
we're back to the epistemology issue.
How do you know or proved that something

1042
01:23:50,319 --> 01:23:54,880
is self evident? Because that's what
this classical foundation is sorguming to rest on.

1043
01:23:55,680 --> 01:23:57,920
I'm not going to pretend you like
I'm super into philosophy. Well,

1044
01:23:58,359 --> 01:24:00,399
you said, we know that natural
theology is true, So how do you

1045
01:24:00,479 --> 01:24:11,600
know it's true? I bet I
was getting something. We know it's true

1046
01:24:11,640 --> 01:24:16,079
because I mean, and then unless
you're going to go into like, how

1047
01:24:16,119 --> 01:24:19,439
do how do we even know reality
is real or whatever? Because you know,

1048
01:24:19,479 --> 01:24:23,319
it's just like we recognize them by
their fruits, you know, so

1049
01:24:23,640 --> 01:24:27,119
so so self evident principles are free
because we recognize them about the words.

1050
01:24:28,439 --> 01:24:32,159
Yeah, how what's the fruits?
How do you determine the fruits of a

1051
01:24:32,239 --> 01:24:36,279
self evident maxim So let me give
you an example of the parapateetic axiom?

1052
01:24:36,359 --> 01:24:42,720
What are the fruits of that?
You know? Oh, this isn't even

1053
01:24:42,760 --> 01:24:45,039
the main points that I wanted to
get into. But okay, yeah,

1054
01:24:45,039 --> 01:24:51,039
but you said natural theologies obviously,
how listen, I'm going to recognize my

1055
01:24:51,119 --> 01:24:55,119
limits and a certain thing. Back
to what I said. What I'm back

1056
01:24:55,159 --> 01:25:00,119
to about all of what you're saying
is built on this faulty foundation though what

1057
01:25:00,199 --> 01:25:03,159
I was going, right, but
you don't want to talk about it,

1058
01:25:03,279 --> 01:25:08,920
said blow past exactly. But anyways, Yeah, anyways, I'm not going

1059
01:25:09,000 --> 01:25:13,039
to care what you asked or I
don't concern myself with your arguments other bra

1060
01:25:15,680 --> 01:25:19,439
this is why they don't come on
guys. Nothing to do with me being

1061
01:25:19,520 --> 01:25:25,159
mean? Was I mean to that
guy? Yes? Okay? And how

1062
01:25:25,319 --> 01:25:29,279
how does that mean to him?
Well? I mean, I think I

1063
01:25:29,319 --> 01:25:31,640
don't think that you're mean. I
don't want to talk about you, but

1064
01:25:31,720 --> 01:25:33,880
I thought you were a little bit
mean. How was that? What did

1065
01:25:33,920 --> 01:25:36,840
I What did I do that was
mean to him at all? I mean

1066
01:25:36,880 --> 01:25:40,760
you you implied that he was it
him or the other guy. You implied

1067
01:25:40,800 --> 01:25:43,840
that they don't read the Bible because
they didn't know something. Well, I

1068
01:25:43,920 --> 01:25:47,600
mean, the issue of Galatians one
is central to whether or not we should

1069
01:25:47,600 --> 01:25:51,760
accept miracles and apparitions on face value. Well, they do think the inferences

1070
01:25:51,800 --> 01:25:57,199
that you drew from Galatians one and
the other text from the Gospels, it

1071
01:25:57,279 --> 01:25:59,880
doesn't really follow. Like, for
example, you said, oh, so

1072
01:26:00,039 --> 01:26:03,880
Galatians one is not about apparitions,
Well, he says, although I are

1073
01:26:03,920 --> 01:26:09,800
an angel from heaven or we are
an angel from heaven. Okay, so

1074
01:26:09,920 --> 01:26:15,600
that doesn't apply to as a principle
on recognizing and discerning. I mean,

1075
01:26:15,640 --> 01:26:19,399
I suppose you could definitely apply that
to apparitions, but I think that there's

1076
01:26:19,479 --> 01:26:25,520
other miracles that attested the truth of
Catholicism that do not that you could not

1077
01:26:25,600 --> 01:26:28,800
apply that to Could you understand that? That's why I went to a pistemology

1078
01:26:28,880 --> 01:26:30,560
with the previous guy, because every
time you try to make this argument,

1079
01:26:30,960 --> 01:26:34,640
you guys can't explain to me why
this or that miracle or this or that

1080
01:26:34,760 --> 01:26:41,479
vision or apparition quote proves Catholicism because
you rest rests on a faulty epistemology that

1081
01:26:41,600 --> 01:26:44,840
you guys just want to ignore and
brush aside. Okay, I would,

1082
01:26:44,880 --> 01:26:47,159
I would present it this way.
I'm sure you're aware of and you probably

1083
01:26:47,159 --> 01:26:49,960
don't think much of it, but
and I'm not sure I do either,

1084
01:26:50,000 --> 01:26:53,199
But I'm sure you're aware of a
C. S. Lewis and is like

1085
01:26:53,279 --> 01:26:57,600
tripecta liar, lunatic thing. Yeah, it's a terrible argument. Yeah,

1086
01:26:58,920 --> 01:27:01,760
Okay, Well, I think that
you could apply a similar logic when we're

1087
01:27:01,760 --> 01:27:05,880
talking about the Catholic Church, because
the Catholic Church makes very bold claims of

1088
01:27:05,920 --> 01:27:12,920
herself, just as Jesus did,
and Jesus vindicated the fact that if Jesus

1089
01:27:13,039 --> 01:27:15,239
was not what he claimed to be. Okay, so if I make really

1090
01:27:15,279 --> 01:27:18,279
bold claims, does that make me
also a contender for the true religion just

1091
01:27:18,359 --> 01:27:23,399
having no no that alone. No, you said that Jesus is like the

1092
01:27:23,479 --> 01:27:27,399
Catholic Church and making bold claims.
So what's that supposed to prove? Well,

1093
01:27:27,560 --> 01:27:30,600
because of the fact that if his
claims were false, then the Pharisees

1094
01:27:30,600 --> 01:27:31,880
would have been ok. Have you
never heard of why this is a bad

1095
01:27:31,960 --> 01:27:36,960
argument? The lord liar larn is
it? Can I present how I apply

1096
01:27:38,039 --> 01:27:42,039
it to the church before you destroy
me? I mean, you can present

1097
01:27:42,159 --> 01:27:44,760
it, but are you aware of
why it might be a bad argument?

1098
01:27:46,479 --> 01:27:53,199
Go ahead, go ahead. Well, the way that the Gospels, for

1099
01:27:53,319 --> 01:27:56,720
example, present Jesus, or the
way that the New Testament presents him,

1100
01:27:57,479 --> 01:28:01,119
in no way gives the possibility that
he is a lunatic or a liar.

1101
01:28:01,199 --> 01:28:05,600
In fact, Peter says, no
of assurance this day that God raised him

1102
01:28:05,640 --> 01:28:10,159
from the debt and has made him
lord. So to know with assurance and

1103
01:28:10,279 --> 01:28:14,199
to then read these texts to talk
about pulling down the strongholds and destroying every

1104
01:28:14,239 --> 01:28:19,039
other worldview. That doesn't to me
leave this evidentialist notion that there's this possibility

1105
01:28:19,079 --> 01:28:23,279
that, well, maybe he is
a liar and a lunatic. It actually

1106
01:28:23,319 --> 01:28:26,880
excludes that possibility. Well, I
agree, that's part of the argument is

1107
01:28:26,920 --> 01:28:29,800
the fact, Well, he's we
know that he must be Lord because we

1108
01:28:30,000 --> 01:28:32,079
see from the scriptures that he is
not a liar. He was a man

1109
01:28:32,119 --> 01:28:36,119
of great upstanding moral character, and
you know he And the premise of this

1110
01:28:36,319 --> 01:28:40,920
argument is that you either have to
accept. In other words, it puts

1111
01:28:41,039 --> 01:28:44,119
God in the dock and allows the
unbeliever to be the judge of God.

1112
01:28:44,159 --> 01:28:47,079
That's the problem of the argument.
Okay, Okay, well I think that,

1113
01:28:48,239 --> 01:28:51,239
So I'll just go ahead and present
why I think it applies to Catholicism

1114
01:28:51,319 --> 01:28:55,199
with regard to particular miracles. Okay, but wait a minute, Wait a

1115
01:28:55,199 --> 01:28:59,239
minute. If it's not a good
argument, then presenting it is not going

1116
01:28:59,279 --> 01:29:00,840
to do anything. I don't care
if you present it, but like,

1117
01:29:00,920 --> 01:29:04,000
what is it supposed to do if
it's a bad argument, Well, I

1118
01:29:04,319 --> 01:29:08,079
don't think it is. I have
to finish presenting it so that people can

1119
01:29:08,119 --> 01:29:10,359
decide it. Well, I just
explained to you why it is a bad

1120
01:29:10,439 --> 01:29:15,319
argument, So I think that you
represented it correctly. Can I prove my

1121
01:29:15,479 --> 01:29:17,079
version of it? I gets might
spin on it at least, but it's

1122
01:29:17,199 --> 01:29:21,000
based on an evidentialist approach. To
argumentation. It's still an evidentialist approach.

1123
01:29:21,319 --> 01:29:26,000
And my critique that has been the
critique from the very beginning tonight, is

1124
01:29:26,039 --> 01:29:30,800
that all of these evidentialist arguments fail
because they're based on classical foundationalism. Do

1125
01:29:30,840 --> 01:29:36,680
you get that point. I understand
that point, like I understand that that's

1126
01:29:36,680 --> 01:29:41,359
your perspective. I don't think that
the scriptures have the same position as you.

1127
01:29:41,439 --> 01:29:45,199
Because Jesus used his miracles to vindicate
his ministry. Yeah, but that

1128
01:29:45,279 --> 01:29:50,119
doesn't conflict with my position because using
the miracles to vindicate does not themselves prove

1129
01:29:50,279 --> 01:29:54,680
that the position's true false. It's
it's just an attestation or an evidence.

1130
01:29:54,800 --> 01:29:58,600
I'm not against evidences. Do you
agree that if he, for example,

1131
01:29:59,039 --> 01:30:01,520
if Jesus claimed aimed to be God
and he was not, he would be

1132
01:30:01,560 --> 01:30:06,880
a blasphemer. Yeah, that's the
argument in John when he's arguing with the

1133
01:30:06,920 --> 01:30:12,159
past with the Pharisees exactly. But
it was he demonstrated with his works and

1134
01:30:12,279 --> 01:30:15,239
he said, you you are for
which of my works do you kill me?

1135
01:30:15,720 --> 01:30:17,760
So he was saying he did good
works and that vindicated the fact that

1136
01:30:17,840 --> 01:30:20,960
he was from God, and particularly
that he cast out delay. But you're

1137
01:30:21,000 --> 01:30:25,600
missing the point though that like,
let's say I prove the resurrection to an

1138
01:30:25,680 --> 01:30:31,359
unbeliever, does that prove Christianity?
Well not not the event in it in

1139
01:30:31,479 --> 01:30:35,760
itself right, But so evidentialism.
This is why evidentialism doesn't work. That's

1140
01:30:35,800 --> 01:30:41,279
the point and the problem. The
problem with evidentialism is the root epistemic issue.

1141
01:30:42,279 --> 01:30:45,359
Well is I mean, I would
say you have to make you have

1142
01:30:45,520 --> 01:30:48,800
to make an argument in order to
make the resurrection meaningful to the person you're

1143
01:30:48,840 --> 01:30:53,680
talking to. Yeah, well yeah, I agree with that. So but

1144
01:30:53,760 --> 01:30:57,680
there's places for when you make evidential
arguments. That doesn't make evidentialism true.

1145
01:30:57,760 --> 01:31:00,760
That's two different things. Evidences are
now necessary, not evidentialism. It's too

1146
01:31:00,800 --> 01:31:05,359
it's ones and ones an epistemic position. The other is not equated to an

1147
01:31:05,399 --> 01:31:10,079
epistemic position. I believe in evidence
is I'm not. I'm not an evidentialist.

1148
01:31:10,119 --> 01:31:13,840
I believe in evidence is in the
proper place. That's fair. I

1149
01:31:13,920 --> 01:31:17,159
don't think I would identify myself as
an evidentialist per se either, unless you

1150
01:31:17,239 --> 01:31:20,840
think, I guess you think natural
theology is evidentialism. Absolutely, they're they're

1151
01:31:21,000 --> 01:31:26,439
they're they're very closely related. So
okay, I think it's a little bit.

1152
01:31:26,680 --> 01:31:30,600
But but I guess you can just
tell me. I suppose you operori

1153
01:31:30,720 --> 01:31:33,840
reject it. But because of this
difference in like fundamental approach, But do

1154
01:31:34,000 --> 01:31:36,439
do you at least see where I'm
going with the fact that, because if

1155
01:31:36,520 --> 01:31:41,399
the church is not the true church, and the you know, the papacy

1156
01:31:41,479 --> 01:31:45,640
is not pallible, why would God
accompany this church with these miracles that can

1157
01:31:45,720 --> 01:31:49,000
only be from God, such as
exorcisms that Jesus that he explains in the

1158
01:31:49,039 --> 01:31:55,119
Book of Mark. Somebody casts out
demons without being a part of Jesus company.

1159
01:31:55,399 --> 01:31:59,079
So there's nothing about that. There's
nothing about exorcisms, thoselves that necessarily

1160
01:31:59,199 --> 01:32:01,399
proves that you're part of the true
church, right, but the truth?

1161
01:32:01,640 --> 01:32:05,680
But why would God accompany miracles to
a church that makes such that miracle?

1162
01:32:05,720 --> 01:32:09,600
In particular? I don't I don't
grant that you all have all of these

1163
01:32:09,680 --> 01:32:13,279
miracles. First of all, I
don't grant Fatima as a miracle or any

1164
01:32:13,319 --> 01:32:16,720
of these ridiculous apparitions even as miracles
well I'm talking about I'm just I'm resticking

1165
01:32:16,800 --> 01:32:19,800
it to the exorcisms because I think
those are not they can't be demonic.

1166
01:32:20,640 --> 01:32:23,960
But how would that prove that you
have the true Church? Do you?

1167
01:32:24,199 --> 01:32:29,600
Uh? Does if if Mary appears
as Zune Egypt to the Coptics, does

1168
01:32:29,680 --> 01:32:34,359
that prove monopseetism? No? I
think apparitions are a weaker Okay, So

1169
01:32:34,439 --> 01:32:40,520
where do you get the criteria?
The status of exorcisms are above the weaker

1170
01:32:40,840 --> 01:32:45,119
level of apparitions, like do you
where do you derive those? Well,

1171
01:32:45,159 --> 01:32:49,359
because an apparition I'm not speaking of
these eperitions in particular, but an apparition

1172
01:32:49,600 --> 01:32:58,840
could theoretically be a demon, whereas
a exorcism could not be according to scripture.

1173
01:33:01,600 --> 01:33:05,079
Okay, but none of this would
still really work to prove natural theology.

1174
01:33:05,119 --> 01:33:08,680
And by the way, exorcisms don't
have anything to do with natural theology.

1175
01:33:09,680 --> 01:33:11,840
Well, I think that, well, it does have to do obviously.

1176
01:33:11,960 --> 01:33:15,960
The council trend does teach that,
you know, miracles can prove the

1177
01:33:15,039 --> 01:33:18,760
existence of God and the One True
Face, so so really at root it's

1178
01:33:18,800 --> 01:33:23,920
an issue of natural theology right right, But I'm saying that the fact that

1179
01:33:24,079 --> 01:33:27,960
a miracle such as exorcism can prove
that's part of the Catholic position. Yes,

1180
01:33:28,640 --> 01:33:30,960
but again it's all going to be
interpreted on the basis of the paradigm,

1181
01:33:31,159 --> 01:33:35,600
So you're going to interpret what are
supposedly Catholic miracles according to the Catholic

1182
01:33:35,680 --> 01:33:39,600
paradigm. To back up the Catholic
paradigm. When I see those things,

1183
01:33:39,720 --> 01:33:43,439
I don't see any proof of Catholicism
because of a different paradigm. So there's

1184
01:33:43,479 --> 01:33:46,239
no way that these evidences are which
are. Let what I believe is that

1185
01:33:46,279 --> 01:33:51,239
we're all reading these events through rose
colored glasses. So it just like if

1186
01:33:51,279 --> 01:33:55,800
you try to show, for example, an atheist, if we try to

1187
01:33:55,840 --> 01:34:00,319
convince him of the resurrection of Christ
through say historical testimonies or some like that,

1188
01:34:00,840 --> 01:34:03,600
like he's going to interpret those things
through his atheist lens, and he's

1189
01:34:03,600 --> 01:34:08,359
going to say something like, well, okay, you know, maybe maybe

1190
01:34:08,439 --> 01:34:12,359
something weird happened and a guy did
one time, you know, you know,

1191
01:34:12,560 --> 01:34:15,479
come back from the dead, and
it was some sort of weird phenomenon.

1192
01:34:15,640 --> 01:34:17,399
We just haven't explained it yet.
But one day science will figure out

1193
01:34:17,439 --> 01:34:20,319
why and how that happens, and
it'll be explained one day. So do

1194
01:34:20,359 --> 01:34:26,359
you see that there's nothing about that
that necessitates that it's self evident the Christianity

1195
01:34:26,439 --> 01:34:29,319
is true? And you even said
earlier that just proving the resurrection wouldn't necessarily

1196
01:34:29,319 --> 01:34:32,880
prove Christianity. So the root issue
here is the natural theology. And I

1197
01:34:33,000 --> 01:34:36,920
want to know why natural theology is
true because the natural theology feels Roman Catholicism

1198
01:34:36,960 --> 01:34:44,159
fails, right. I mean,
I'm not as philosophically knowledgeable as you,

1199
01:34:45,000 --> 01:34:47,239
so I don't know if I want
to go into a deep like. I'm

1200
01:34:47,279 --> 01:34:51,079
committed to that position being a Catholic, but I came to my Catholic position

1201
01:34:51,199 --> 01:34:56,640
a different way than you did because
I was okay, fair enough. So

1202
01:34:57,439 --> 01:35:00,520
I came to this from a like
and I didn't study the philosophy too deeply,

1203
01:35:00,600 --> 01:35:05,399
but presuppositionalism made sense to me.
I was a Calvinist, but as

1204
01:35:05,479 --> 01:35:12,479
I was reading the Gospels, I
saw that Jesus used his miracles to prove

1205
01:35:12,600 --> 01:35:16,159
his ministry, and the Pharisees did
interpret his miracles differently through their worldview.

1206
01:35:16,439 --> 01:35:19,720
But that doesn't mean the miracles weren't
sufficient proof that in fact, they were

1207
01:35:19,800 --> 01:35:21,960
and that's why they were. So
why does he say, Why does he

1208
01:35:23,039 --> 01:35:25,720
say to the guy in torments,
even though you rise from the dead,

1209
01:35:26,159 --> 01:35:30,560
they will not believe. Because it's
the issue, isn't the sufficiency of the

1210
01:35:30,680 --> 01:35:33,239
proof. It's the fact that the
person is rejecting the testimony of Moses because

1211
01:35:33,239 --> 01:35:36,319
of their sins. Now, the
point of that is that even if one

1212
01:35:36,399 --> 01:35:42,680
rise from the dead, they won't
believe it's a miracle. Yeah, you

1213
01:35:42,760 --> 01:35:45,880
can't compel someone, but by your
argument that that's one of the strongest proofs

1214
01:35:45,920 --> 01:35:49,600
would be a bodily resurrection. And
Jesus says that no, if they don't

1215
01:35:49,640 --> 01:35:53,880
believe that the scriptures, are not
going to believe one that if one rise

1216
01:35:53,920 --> 01:35:58,680
from the dead, So the miracles
don't prove the faith. My physician is

1217
01:35:58,760 --> 01:36:01,039
that it is proof, and that's
what they're culpable for rejecting it. Regardless

1218
01:36:01,079 --> 01:36:04,359
of them, that's why they're cold. Jesus says that even if one writes

1219
01:36:04,399 --> 01:36:08,359
from the dead, they won't believe
because they already don't believe in the inspiration

1220
01:36:08,439 --> 01:36:12,319
of the scriptures. Yeah, he's
but that's econdom. Just like whenever the

1221
01:36:12,359 --> 01:36:15,840
Pharisees describe Jesus as miracles to Satan, he then condemned them for that because

1222
01:36:15,880 --> 01:36:18,239
of the fact that the miracles did
prove that. He was. Yeah,

1223
01:36:18,239 --> 01:36:24,640
but but there's nothing about the arbitrarily
chosen ones that you've picked out like,

1224
01:36:24,760 --> 01:36:29,039
oh, well, an exorcism proves
it, right, Because by the way,

1225
01:36:29,239 --> 01:36:30,960
when you have if you look at
Galatians one, when Paul makes that

1226
01:36:32,079 --> 01:36:38,279
limitation on what you're supposed to judge
these events by, he's not pulling that

1227
01:36:38,359 --> 01:36:42,760
out of nowhere. It's actually based
on Deuteronomy thirteen and Deuteronomy eighteen, which

1228
01:36:42,840 --> 01:36:45,960
already gave you the criteria by which
you judge all signs and wonders. So

1229
01:36:46,199 --> 01:36:49,439
are you are you aware with what
of what Deuteronomy thirteen and eighteen say about

1230
01:36:49,439 --> 01:36:54,520
that? Yeah, it talks about
like prophets who say something will come to

1231
01:36:54,560 --> 01:36:56,960
pass, and if it doesn't,
then they're a false prophet. But if

1232
01:36:57,000 --> 01:36:59,359
it does and they lead you to
worship other gods, then you're just stoning

1233
01:36:59,399 --> 01:37:02,439
them as well order to execute them
as well. And so if so,

1234
01:37:02,840 --> 01:37:05,359
let me give you another And I'm
glad you said this, because there's a

1235
01:37:05,439 --> 01:37:11,600
very famous uh, a Coptic exorcist. Does that prove the Coptic Church?

1236
01:37:12,239 --> 01:37:17,039
The Coptic Excorsi is on YouTube?
Well, I would say that it serves

1237
01:37:17,039 --> 01:37:20,439
as evidence that there God works in
that church. Wait a minute, so

1238
01:37:20,560 --> 01:37:25,520
it's not a proof of the church
because now God works in churches outside of

1239
01:37:25,520 --> 01:37:29,640
the Catholic Church. You said that
that exorcisms prove the Catholic Church, not

1240
01:37:30,039 --> 01:37:33,239
by themselves. It's oh so,
now it's not that exactly. It's well,

1241
01:37:33,239 --> 01:37:35,880
it's a combination of things. Because
wait a minute, so now you're

1242
01:37:35,920 --> 01:37:40,560
moving the goalpost. I thought extra, but you are because you said that

1243
01:37:40,680 --> 01:37:44,520
exorcisms are better than apparitions, and
those are the ones that we should look

1244
01:37:44,560 --> 01:37:47,439
to. But when I give an
example of Coptic exorcisms, all that doesn't

1245
01:37:47,479 --> 01:37:50,319
count. Well, it doesn't have
to prove it by it. It's I'm

1246
01:37:50,359 --> 01:37:54,560
saying, for example, but the
church misses that. They don't have the

1247
01:37:54,640 --> 01:37:57,960
qualifier of being a Catholic church.
They're not universal. Well wait a minute,

1248
01:37:57,960 --> 01:38:00,159
you don't even know what universal means, because according to the church its

1249
01:38:00,199 --> 01:38:02,520
fathers, universal means fullness of truth. It doesn't mean the papacy. It

1250
01:38:02,560 --> 01:38:05,960
doesn't mean numbers. You understand that
it doesn't mean numbers. In the fourth

1251
01:38:06,000 --> 01:38:10,600
century, that quote, Catholic Church
was reduced to a small handful of bishops.

1252
01:38:10,760 --> 01:38:14,199
So do you think it equates to
numbers. No, But I do

1253
01:38:14,359 --> 01:38:17,720
think that Jesus commanded the great commission
to be fulfilled and that wait everything,

1254
01:38:17,800 --> 01:38:21,800
So every account example you say doesn't
count. So now numbers don't matter.

1255
01:38:21,960 --> 01:38:26,840
So is it numbers or not that
makes Catholicity, Well, it's I don't

1256
01:38:26,840 --> 01:38:29,920
think it's numbers. I think it's
the every tribe, tongue nation in people.

1257
01:38:31,960 --> 01:38:35,359
Well, I can agree to that, but I can agree that you

1258
01:38:35,439 --> 01:38:40,279
can still be reduced to a small
group, like in the Arian crisis in

1259
01:38:40,359 --> 01:38:44,000
the fourth century. So so did
did the Church lose Catholicity in the fourth

1260
01:38:44,039 --> 01:38:47,600
century? It could be a small
group, but not an ethnical lead.

1261
01:38:48,000 --> 01:38:53,560
But not where does the ethnic come
into this? Well, nobody brought Maybe

1262
01:38:53,560 --> 01:38:56,399
I'm not too knowledgeable of Coptics,
but it seems to me that they're very

1263
01:38:57,079 --> 01:39:00,760
limited to a particular region. And
well they you know, they have they

1264
01:39:00,800 --> 01:39:08,119
have multiple ethnicities who profess Monophysitism or
whatever. Who are you know of that

1265
01:39:08,359 --> 01:39:12,279
quote communion? Yeah, I guess, I guess. I'm just saying,

1266
01:39:12,319 --> 01:39:15,800
like, wouldn't it be confusing if
God were to put these miracles in this

1267
01:39:15,680 --> 01:39:19,239
is? So why is it not
confusing though? For me to believe that

1268
01:39:19,439 --> 01:39:25,439
the miracles are proving a group that
has just now told me that Muslims and

1269
01:39:25,479 --> 01:39:28,960
Christians worship the same God. How
is that not confusing? So you're saying

1270
01:39:29,000 --> 01:39:30,880
the miracle, I look at the
miracles, not the documents in the dogmas.

1271
01:39:33,079 --> 01:39:39,159
No, I think that the if
the I suppose, yeah, it

1272
01:39:39,239 --> 01:39:42,720
becomes an extended issue in terms of
it. If Muslims and Christians worships.

1273
01:39:42,840 --> 01:39:45,920
Do you believe that? Do I
believe? Yes? I do in a

1274
01:39:46,000 --> 01:39:49,560
sense yes. Oh and what senses
that? Do you think Muslims think that?

1275
01:39:51,760 --> 01:39:55,960
No, Muslims of sam Committee Sure? Okay, So in what sense

1276
01:39:56,000 --> 01:40:00,600
then does a person who denies multiple
attributes of God and denies the deity of

1277
01:40:00,680 --> 01:40:04,039
Christ and the Triad worship the same
God as a Christian? Well? I

1278
01:40:04,119 --> 01:40:09,159
mean, I understand that you want
to know you you tell me you know

1279
01:40:09,399 --> 01:40:12,920
who cares what I think? Well, I think that you would. You

1280
01:40:12,960 --> 01:40:15,319
would reject the fact that I'm saying
that. You know, we both believe

1281
01:40:15,359 --> 01:40:17,560
in one God, the God of
Abraham. We believe in divine some places.

1282
01:40:17,600 --> 01:40:19,039
Wait a minute, so wait a
minute, So, so do you

1283
01:40:19,079 --> 01:40:25,760
know what the quantifier shift alic is? I it sounds as if you're saying

1284
01:40:25,880 --> 01:40:28,399
that, Go ahead and tell me, do you know what it is?

1285
01:40:29,760 --> 01:40:32,399
I don't know it by right.
So that is when a person says,

1286
01:40:32,520 --> 01:40:35,159
well, I believe in one God. You believe in one God. The

1287
01:40:35,239 --> 01:40:40,720
Satanists believes in one God. Therefore
I believe in the same God. Right,

1288
01:40:40,880 --> 01:40:43,720
Yeah, no, I agree,
But because if that's a fallacy,

1289
01:40:43,760 --> 01:40:45,720
then how do you and the muscle
worship the same god? Because that was

1290
01:40:45,760 --> 01:41:04,279
where you were going? Are you
there? If you're there, we can't

1291
01:41:04,279 --> 01:41:08,000
hear you. You can try to
come back and come back in. I

1292
01:41:08,039 --> 01:41:20,199
don't know, Jared, hey,
Jack m I don't want to beat it

1293
01:41:20,239 --> 01:41:26,199
a horse, but these kind of
the arguments are awful king coming out of

1294
01:41:26,760 --> 01:41:31,399
track Catholicism, and it's wild the
amount of like I call it all stritch

1295
01:41:31,439 --> 01:41:35,119
heading, when you just dig your
head in the sand and overlook everything and

1296
01:41:35,279 --> 01:41:38,079
just say, oh, well you
know the keys, it's that's the true

1297
01:41:38,159 --> 01:41:40,840
church. Yeah, well that's what
happens. Is like anytime we really get

1298
01:41:40,880 --> 01:41:45,239
into the issues, they throw their
hands up and it's Wilma apparitions. I

1299
01:41:45,399 --> 01:41:49,920
just follow Fadama. Yeah, is
he not aware that also Jews and Muslims

1300
01:41:49,960 --> 01:41:56,279
also practice there for my vesticisms,
like they have their own deliverance ministry,

1301
01:41:56,279 --> 01:41:59,279
if you will. I come from
a Jewish background as well, And I

1302
01:41:59,319 --> 01:42:00,840
have Muslim friends and they'll tell me, yet it's not the same God.

1303
01:42:01,119 --> 01:42:04,399
We also have our own miracles.
We also have our own That's an interesting

1304
01:42:04,479 --> 01:42:09,479
Yeah, I haven't thought about like
like Hasidic Jews do exorcism for it.

1305
01:42:09,920 --> 01:42:12,920
Yeah, they do. They Actually
there's a movie on it, a documentary.

1306
01:42:12,920 --> 01:42:15,039
I don't pire for other name,
but it's a legit thing. And

1307
01:42:15,079 --> 01:42:17,039
they claim to have those kinds of
miracles. But like you said, miracles

1308
01:42:17,119 --> 01:42:23,600
do not make a faith or a
certain church legitimate. But that's again what

1309
01:42:23,680 --> 01:42:27,640
they point to. And it's funny
because all that scholossicism kind of goes out

1310
01:42:27,680 --> 01:42:30,239
the window when it comes down to
all of these, you know, minute

1311
01:42:30,279 --> 01:42:35,640
points in these miracles. I spoke
to over five different quote trad priests who

1312
01:42:35,680 --> 01:42:40,399
all told me different things. They
said, some say Vatican two is is

1313
01:42:40,640 --> 01:42:45,920
uh, what's it called? Not
binding? It's not dogmatic? Some say

1314
01:42:45,960 --> 01:42:48,680
it is. I spoke to a
Uni eight priest, a Romanian Catholic priest,

1315
01:42:48,760 --> 01:42:51,199
and he told me that there is
no one true church. Can you

1316
01:42:51,239 --> 01:42:57,119
believe that? He said, it's
all We're all just here worshiping the same

1317
01:42:57,199 --> 01:42:59,800
God. Is all. If there
is no one true church. Let's all

1318
01:43:00,079 --> 01:43:03,239
gus just getting along. That's what
I was told. So that really kind

1319
01:43:03,279 --> 01:43:09,039
of vindicated Orthodoxy for me. But
I just had a couple questions on the

1320
01:43:09,119 --> 01:43:13,239
Old Testament. Okay, coming from
the Jewish background that I kind of grew

1321
01:43:13,319 --> 01:43:17,319
up in, I'm sort of confused
on how Rabbinic Judaism came into being,

1322
01:43:17,439 --> 01:43:23,199
Like, how could all of these
religious Jews, these Pharisees, these people

1323
01:43:23,279 --> 01:43:26,359
to study the text all kind of
get it wrong and then how to kind

1324
01:43:26,359 --> 01:43:29,560
of well, we wouldn't say they
all did so. Like for example,

1325
01:43:29,600 --> 01:43:31,640
if you go back to Jeremiah eight, when he starts talking about the lying

1326
01:43:31,720 --> 01:43:35,960
pen of the scribe, we can
tell that already in Jeremiah's day, probably

1327
01:43:36,039 --> 01:43:40,640
related to you know, the time
in Babylon, there's a division, there's

1328
01:43:40,960 --> 01:43:45,680
a fissure that's occurring already between certain
scribes and probably what will become Pharisees Ezra

1329
01:43:45,800 --> 01:43:48,760
sets up the synagogue system. That's
where that comes from, right, he

1330
01:43:48,760 --> 01:43:53,920
talked about in Jeremiah A the lying
pen of the scribe already beginning to pervert

1331
01:43:54,359 --> 01:43:56,880
the meaning of the text, not
the text itself, like Muslims say,

1332
01:43:56,920 --> 01:44:00,239
but the meaning of the text and
then you'll notice that Gesus in Matthew I

1333
01:44:00,279 --> 01:44:04,439
think twenty three when he there's a
lot of parallels with with Jeremiah and his

1334
01:44:04,560 --> 01:44:08,800
life and the things that he says
that parallels the life of Christ. If

1335
01:44:08,840 --> 01:44:12,560
you compare the two, they're really
close. And one of those things is

1336
01:44:12,640 --> 01:44:17,840
the diatribes against the scribes of their
day. So Jeremiah is critiquing the scribes

1337
01:44:17,960 --> 01:44:23,960
and the religious stories of his day. Jesus does exact same thing that Jeremiah

1338
01:44:24,000 --> 01:44:27,920
does. So I think that that's
an indicator, a textual indicator, that

1339
01:44:28,039 --> 01:44:30,840
that's where we're beginning to see the
rise of that tradition, and by Jesus'

1340
01:44:30,880 --> 01:44:35,039
time, presumably it's already kind of
becoming codified. But keep in mind that

1341
01:44:35,760 --> 01:44:43,159
thousands and thousands of Jews in the
first and second century are the foundation of

1342
01:44:43,199 --> 01:44:46,079
the Church. They are, so
it's not like all the Jews went into

1343
01:44:46,119 --> 01:44:51,960
Rabbinic Judaism like gigantic portions are the
real literal foundation stones of the Church.

1344
01:44:53,880 --> 01:45:00,399
Right, So how didnic and like
Talmudic Judaism, So this comes right,

1345
01:45:00,479 --> 01:45:06,720
This is something that kind of manifests
precisely when Judaism and Christianity officially part ways

1346
01:45:06,760 --> 01:45:10,720
in the first and second century.
So if you read like the Boyaran Book

1347
01:45:11,840 --> 01:45:16,479
or the I think it's the book
the Boyaran Book that deals with this,

1348
01:45:16,760 --> 01:45:19,800
this departure in the in the first
and second century. There's got a whole

1349
01:45:19,840 --> 01:45:25,960
chapter on this. What is the
name of that book? It's at my

1350
01:45:26,039 --> 01:45:28,119
other my other place. I don't
have it with me. Let me pull

1351
01:45:28,159 --> 01:45:31,479
it up. It's the one I
cite in the Daniel Hikikichi debate. But

1352
01:45:31,560 --> 01:45:39,079
that's where you start to see the
codification and the real solidifying of the different

1353
01:45:39,119 --> 01:45:43,079
Talmuds, the Babylonian Talmud, the
Jerusalem Talmud. This is where there's this

1354
01:45:43,199 --> 01:45:45,239
idea we don't even know if it's
exactly the case, the Council of Jamnia,

1355
01:45:45,600 --> 01:45:51,720
which supposedly kind of is a rabbinic
synod to decide about proto masoretic text.

1356
01:45:53,279 --> 01:45:55,279
But a lot of this is just
kind of like, we don't know

1357
01:45:55,359 --> 01:45:59,720
exactly if that's the case, but
it looks like that's when the two groups

1358
01:45:59,720 --> 01:46:03,319
are part ways. Gotcha, because
my dad's Jewish and he's very reluctant to

1359
01:46:03,880 --> 01:46:06,439
He's like, well, how did
all of these you know, modern day

1360
01:46:06,520 --> 01:46:11,199
Jews and these these rabbis and these
verses kind of get it wrong. And

1361
01:46:11,279 --> 01:46:13,600
that's what I'm trying to kind of
find, well, they did it right.

1362
01:46:14,159 --> 01:46:19,800
Also, the Messianic juke uh uh
what's his name? Buddy of mine

1363
01:46:19,880 --> 01:46:23,920
from years ago? What's his name? Ken? I mean he has a

1364
01:46:24,000 --> 01:46:29,560
book, Uh, Judy Jesus has
the Messiah Judaism versus Judaism debate. And

1365
01:46:29,880 --> 01:46:33,000
the book that I mentioned earlier is
called Borderlines, The Partition of Judaism and

1366
01:46:33,079 --> 01:46:42,479
Christianity by Dan Daniel Boyarn. It's
a good book on this. Yeah,

1367
01:46:42,560 --> 01:46:48,159
great questions, man, I appreciate
that. Mm hm. The edge of

1368
01:46:49,199 --> 01:46:51,520
Marina, did you want to try
again? We got to hear you before,

1369
01:47:03,760 --> 01:47:09,319
Marina there, Marina brown Vitch right
there, that's just a joke.

1370
01:47:14,039 --> 01:47:20,359
You have to turn your mic on. We can't hear you. Mario.

1371
01:47:23,199 --> 01:47:33,880
It's to me, Mario, I'm
the boss. It's me Mario. Hi.

1372
01:47:35,079 --> 01:47:42,199
I wanted to regard the remark on
Trent Horn's post on Twitter that you

1373
01:47:42,319 --> 01:47:45,760
said about the logical fallacy. I
think that from his point of view,

1374
01:47:45,119 --> 01:47:49,840
since is you're talking about the quantifier
chef, Yeah, okay, that's one.

1375
01:47:49,920 --> 01:47:55,600
Yeah, his point of view?
Is it really committing the logical fallacy

1376
01:47:56,640 --> 01:48:01,840
since is holding the position that you
of the pure act and natural theology and

1377
01:48:02,399 --> 01:48:10,079
all of that. So it could
actually make sense that if Musuzims or Zoroastrians

1378
01:48:10,199 --> 01:48:17,760
or whoever riches a god that is
actually one. No, but see God

1379
01:48:17,920 --> 01:48:23,239
is not the Aristotilian God. First
of all, it's the triad right.

1380
01:48:23,479 --> 01:48:27,239
But secondly, I don't even think
it works even if the even if a

1381
01:48:27,359 --> 01:48:31,079
Muslim and a and a Trent,
even if Abu Trent and you know,

1382
01:48:31,239 --> 01:48:36,119
Abu whoever Muhammad over here are coming
to agree. Uh. If you read

1383
01:48:36,119 --> 01:48:41,039
the Garibie paper on theistic fallacies,
he makes multiple arguments where he points out

1384
01:48:41,159 --> 01:48:46,079
that like to have the Christian deity, for example, requires a set of

1385
01:48:46,439 --> 01:48:49,840
beliefs about that God, and if
you remove any of that set, then

1386
01:48:49,920 --> 01:48:54,399
it's not that it's not that reference
anymore. This is why, for example,

1387
01:48:54,520 --> 01:48:59,279
Basil, like when Basil is arguing
to get Eunomius, like, even

1388
01:48:59,319 --> 01:49:00,439
though you Unomius says, well,
I believe in Father, Son and Holy

1389
01:49:00,479 --> 01:49:04,319
Spirit just like you. Well,
does that mean that they mean the same

1390
01:49:04,359 --> 01:49:09,119
God. No, Basil doesn't concede
or think that you know me as worships

1391
01:49:09,159 --> 01:49:14,720
the same God as he does.
So the the systems are such that it's

1392
01:49:14,760 --> 01:49:20,760
a holistic thing. You can't remove
attributes or essential predicates and still have the

1393
01:49:20,840 --> 01:49:26,039
same reference. And this is called
in the paper, if you read the

1394
01:49:26,079 --> 01:49:29,119
Garibie paper, I think it's name
is Daniel Garabe G. E. R.

1395
01:49:29,119 --> 01:49:35,359
E. B Y theistic fallacies.
It's called the non substitutivity of uh

1396
01:49:38,760 --> 01:49:45,199
oh, what is that blank in? Is that trend's not sharing this view?

1397
01:49:46,479 --> 01:49:51,359
So on his logic, it's all
comedic and fallacy because it's starting from

1398
01:49:51,399 --> 01:49:56,840
a point of view where yeah,
I know that you disagree on that.

1399
01:49:56,960 --> 01:50:02,760
You're saying that, Wait, wait, why is he not keviny Folsey Because

1400
01:50:02,840 --> 01:50:06,319
on his on his view, he
doesn't agree what you said about, you

1401
01:50:06,399 --> 01:50:14,640
know, the atributes that you have
a holistic system. I think the fact

1402
01:50:14,680 --> 01:50:16,439
that yeah, but hold on.
But but the fact that he doesn't agree

1403
01:50:16,520 --> 01:50:21,000
to that doesn't mean that he escapes
the critique. That's just him being inconsistent.

1404
01:50:29,000 --> 01:50:32,840
I'm saying that he escapes the critique
because it doesn't he doesn't agree with

1405
01:50:32,960 --> 01:50:38,199
the fact that you need the whole
holistic view. Yeah, but that's that's

1406
01:50:38,199 --> 01:50:43,560
why I'm saying it's inconsistent. There's
no such thing as like, oh,

1407
01:50:43,600 --> 01:50:47,640
I'm defending thirty percent of the trinity
that doesn't exist. No, but I

1408
01:50:47,720 --> 01:50:51,720
think from his point of view,
the Trinity is a revelation thing. No.

1409
01:50:51,960 --> 01:50:56,000
No, but that's but that's why
his natural theology fails, and that's

1410
01:50:56,000 --> 01:50:58,800
why he argues that the Old Testament
doesn't each your trinity. That's the point.

1411
01:50:59,600 --> 01:51:06,359
Yeah, right, so his whole
project fails. Okay, yeah,

1412
01:51:06,920 --> 01:51:11,119
community, all right, Yeah,
well you can keep defending that if you

1413
01:51:11,199 --> 01:51:18,359
want to go for it, mister
cough Keno. By the way, what

1414
01:51:18,439 --> 01:51:23,439
I was trying to say was the
non substancutivity of identicals and episcific context.

1415
01:51:24,079 --> 01:51:33,520
That is the point in the Garabee
paper where there's a certain ambiguity to terms

1416
01:51:33,720 --> 01:51:38,920
that don't tell us what the term
is referring to unless we know the whole

1417
01:51:38,960 --> 01:51:43,079
context. That's the point here.
And if you read the Garby paper,

1418
01:51:43,119 --> 01:51:48,920
it's in there. Go ahead,
Hi there, Jay, Thanks for when

1419
01:51:49,039 --> 01:51:54,520
me come speak. I hope every
my MIC's working. Well sure, uh

1420
01:51:54,640 --> 01:51:58,920
so. I am a Catholic and
I listened to you speak quite a bit

1421
01:51:59,000 --> 01:52:02,119
about national theology. You listen to
your de be with believe was Trent Horne.

1422
01:52:02,119 --> 01:52:06,560
It's been a long time, but
I have some questions regarding this.

1423
01:52:08,680 --> 01:52:13,680
So it seems to me, I'm
sure you understand this to a great extent.

1424
01:52:14,720 --> 01:52:16,319
When it comes to natural theology,
the idea is essentially that there is

1425
01:52:16,439 --> 01:52:21,000
some things you can know about God
apart from divine revelation. Well, it

1426
01:52:21,119 --> 01:52:26,199
actually goes further than that. If
you look at the definition of John Paul

1427
01:52:26,279 --> 01:52:31,640
the Second. His definition was it's
not just you could know some things,

1428
01:52:31,720 --> 01:52:34,760
it's let me see if I can
find the definition here. So well,

1429
01:52:35,359 --> 01:52:40,520
even even just even if it's like
a basic framework, would you disagree with

1430
01:52:40,640 --> 01:52:44,439
that? Or well, let me
let me, let me see if I

1431
01:52:44,479 --> 01:52:46,880
can find this definition. It's not
long, it's let's see where is it.

1432
01:52:50,159 --> 01:52:56,239
It's just basically any reasoning about God
apart from divine revelation. And it

1433
01:52:56,399 --> 01:53:01,680
assumes that you can have this sort
of self evident approach to reasoning to God

1434
01:53:02,119 --> 01:53:09,279
that doesn't require any revelation to ground
it or to its basically just falls back

1435
01:53:09,359 --> 01:53:15,880
on self evident maxims. Okay,
so right, Well, the way that

1436
01:53:15,319 --> 01:53:21,199
or you critique often the application of
this in the when speaking about well,

1437
01:53:21,520 --> 01:53:28,560
you know, the Catholic Church dogmatized
that be worship seeing God as the Muslims.

1438
01:53:29,000 --> 01:53:31,199
And so I guess and this isn't
me trying to get like like a

1439
01:53:31,279 --> 01:53:40,239
gotcha or anything like that, honestly
serious. So when it comes to Aristotle,

1440
01:53:40,680 --> 01:53:43,640
for example, just an example,
So do you believe that Aristotle believe

1441
01:53:43,680 --> 01:53:46,239
in God? Do you believe he
worshiped our God? Or is that just

1442
01:53:46,920 --> 01:53:51,199
right? So the Christian position should
be the way that Basil and Hexameron two

1443
01:53:51,840 --> 01:53:57,479
says that Aristotle was a fool because
he worshiped the Dad, namely an eternal

1444
01:53:57,640 --> 01:54:01,680
actualizer, moving prema material from early
tity. That's making the premium material opposite

1445
01:54:01,760 --> 01:54:05,079
God also eternal, and that would
be a diad. So how is that

1446
01:54:05,279 --> 01:54:09,199
at all? The same God is
what we worship. So the point there

1447
01:54:09,319 --> 01:54:13,920
is that there's no like scale down
lowest common denominator God. You got to

1448
01:54:14,000 --> 01:54:17,680
have all of the attributes to be
referring to the right God. And if

1449
01:54:17,760 --> 01:54:23,239
I take away some of those key
attributes. For example, many Muslims don't

1450
01:54:23,279 --> 01:54:27,800
believe that God is omnipresent or present
in the world or in time and space.

1451
01:54:28,199 --> 01:54:31,279
So you understand that a Muslim immediately
removes one of the crucial attributes of

1452
01:54:31,359 --> 01:54:38,119
God. So how so if that's
the case, then the referent is not

1453
01:54:38,279 --> 01:54:42,720
the same. Okay, So the
way, the way, the way that

1454
01:54:42,720 --> 01:54:45,359
I would critique a little bit of
what you're saying, and forgive me if

1455
01:54:45,359 --> 01:54:51,720
I mischaracterizing you in some way,
But it seems like any sort of basically

1456
01:54:51,760 --> 01:54:58,039
one would have to have a full
understanding of God and all of his attributes

1457
01:54:58,239 --> 01:55:02,000
in every way. No, you
have to have the ones that are delineated

1458
01:55:02,119 --> 01:55:08,199
in divine revelation or for example,
in the churches teaching on the Trinity and

1459
01:55:08,279 --> 01:55:13,119
incarnation. So it's not like I
have to know every exhaustive aspect of God,

1460
01:55:13,439 --> 01:55:15,520
but I have to know the ones
that the church is laid down.

1461
01:55:15,640 --> 01:55:20,159
And okay, so as a Catholic, right I tend the Latin Mass,

1462
01:55:20,239 --> 01:55:26,199
and even in the Novisordo, which
I'll sometimes attend. The Filioquay is you

1463
01:55:26,279 --> 01:55:30,359
know, we profess the philio Quay, and so that would be something that'd

1464
01:55:30,359 --> 01:55:32,279
be something in your eyes that you
see as as a sort of as one

1465
01:55:32,279 --> 01:55:36,199
of these big attributes that were that
were missing because we professor the philio Quay.

1466
01:55:36,560 --> 01:55:40,840
You deny at tilio Oquay, you
believe in monarchia the Father, it

1467
01:55:40,880 --> 01:55:45,279
would be one. I think there's
other things that Roman Catholics hold in relation

1468
01:55:45,359 --> 01:55:48,560
to the Trinity that also cancel it
out beyond just the triad For example,

1469
01:55:49,119 --> 01:55:53,520
you know, created grace is another
one of these elements that cuts off the

1470
01:55:53,600 --> 01:55:57,319
direct knowledge of God. And the
other thing too, is a point that

1471
01:55:57,439 --> 01:56:00,880
I think Lawsky makes, which is
that the whole project of natural theology,

1472
01:56:00,920 --> 01:56:06,479
for example, assumes that you can
have access to attributes of a simple essence

1473
01:56:06,840 --> 01:56:10,960
that don't come to you into the
mode of the triad And the problem is

1474
01:56:11,000 --> 01:56:15,720
that if you go to the Caffadocians
into the triadology of the Constantinople one,

1475
01:56:16,199 --> 01:56:19,960
which is the ecumenically dougmatized teaching of
the Trinity disposedly for the West too,

1476
01:56:21,000 --> 01:56:26,640
they actually argue as if the attributes
and the energies come in the mode of

1477
01:56:26,720 --> 01:56:30,239
triad So in other words, there
is no attribute that comes to us that's

1478
01:56:30,319 --> 01:56:33,119
not triadic. So if you're going
to talk about God's omniscience or his omnipotence,

1479
01:56:33,359 --> 01:56:38,399
or his eternality or whatever, those
are energies that come in the mode

1480
01:56:38,800 --> 01:56:42,439
of the persons that have them.
There's no such thing as deriving a bunch

1481
01:56:42,520 --> 01:56:47,560
of attributes from an absolutely simple essence. So the project from the outset is

1482
01:56:47,680 --> 01:56:53,039
thus anti trinitarian. And if you
read the Garabee paper, he actually argues,

1483
01:56:53,840 --> 01:56:59,119
why would I accept a Tomistic view
and not a perennialist view, because

1484
01:56:59,159 --> 01:57:02,560
a perennialist makes the exact same arguments
as a tomas in terms of their lowest

1485
01:57:02,560 --> 01:57:08,760
common the nominator attributes approach, and
he uses, for example, the embarrassing

1486
01:57:08,880 --> 01:57:15,119
figure of in our church who is
still a Tomist Swinburn. Swinburn has this

1487
01:57:15,279 --> 01:57:18,399
list of what he thinks are the
lowest common de nominator attributes to pick out

1488
01:57:18,479 --> 01:57:23,680
quote classical theism, And the point
is that there's nothing about this list that

1489
01:57:23,720 --> 01:57:30,319
would prevent you from becoming a perennialist. Again, I'm not too familiar with

1490
01:57:30,439 --> 01:57:32,199
with perennialism, but I just well, I'm not trying to be mean here,

1491
01:57:32,199 --> 01:57:35,039
so you're not familiar with that,
I'm not at all, not at

1492
01:57:35,039 --> 01:57:40,000
all. Okay, so you should
be read this paper and I'm not trying

1493
01:57:40,000 --> 01:57:41,840
to cut you off. I'll let
you say whatever you want to say.

1494
01:57:42,520 --> 01:57:45,560
But the reason this is really important
is because I think this argument about perennialism

1495
01:57:45,640 --> 01:57:51,960
shows that the lowest common nominator approach
is very dangerous because it can easily lead

1496
01:57:53,000 --> 01:57:57,520
a person to the what's the name
of the perennialist guy in here, so

1497
01:57:57,600 --> 01:58:03,079
that the paper cites Hick I think
it's his name anyway, but if you

1498
01:58:03,119 --> 01:58:06,680
read the article, you'll you'll see
the the perennialist guy that's mentioned. And

1499
01:58:06,760 --> 01:58:12,000
he actually makes this point to Swinburn
the Thomas and he's said, you know,

1500
01:58:12,199 --> 01:58:15,760
basically saying, there's nothing about this
that prevents me from taking uh,

1501
01:58:16,560 --> 01:58:21,000
the natural theology l C. D. Low's common de nominator attributes and concluding

1502
01:58:21,119 --> 01:58:28,000
perennialism. That's like shoe on Gannon
all those goobers, there's not. So

1503
01:58:28,000 --> 01:58:30,079
in other words, the whole project
is anti Christian, you see, And

1504
01:58:30,199 --> 01:58:35,880
that's what underlies the nostratat Luminagentium sixteen
approach to why we can pray in the

1505
01:58:35,920 --> 01:58:44,119
mosque with Muslims. Yeah, so, I mean I could could see some

1506
01:58:44,199 --> 01:58:45,600
things to that. I'm not sure
how how helpful that would be, but

1507
01:58:46,560 --> 01:58:51,560
I it seems to me that as
the Catholic Church sees itself as being grounded

1508
01:58:51,600 --> 01:58:56,840
in revelation, in saying these things. I mean, I mean, but

1509
01:58:56,920 --> 01:58:59,880
the fact that it claims that doesn't
that that just means that it has can

1510
01:59:00,359 --> 01:59:04,079
conflicting claims. That doesn't mean that
it's correct because they claims something else somewhere

1511
01:59:04,119 --> 01:59:06,600
else. Let me let me give
you an example of that real quick.

1512
01:59:06,640 --> 01:59:11,079
For example, Trent was saying or
something somebody in the threat. It wasn't

1513
01:59:11,079 --> 01:59:15,159
Trent. Somebody said something like,
oh, well, here's a quote from

1514
01:59:15,199 --> 01:59:18,359
the Catechism which says that there's traces
of the Trinity in the Old Testament.

1515
01:59:18,600 --> 01:59:23,239
No, I'm aware that Roman Catholics
believe that there's these traces quote unquote of

1516
01:59:23,239 --> 01:59:25,760
the Trinity, which, by the
way, I think there's actually weak language.

1517
01:59:25,840 --> 01:59:29,239
It's not traces, it's like explicit. But even if I granted that

1518
01:59:29,279 --> 01:59:32,800
it was traces, like, all
that tells me is that that's inconsistent with

1519
01:59:32,920 --> 01:59:39,880
what is presented in Vatican Two's and
Lmagendeum sixteen and atte about the common ground

1520
01:59:39,960 --> 01:59:45,000
with Muslims. Well, I would
say, when it comes to Trent's debates,

1521
01:59:45,079 --> 01:59:46,159
and I've heard him say it a
few times and I found it rather

1522
01:59:46,199 --> 01:59:50,199
disappointing. Is the idea that Abraham
was unaware of the Trinity in some way,

1523
01:59:50,720 --> 01:59:55,680
things like that those sorts of comments
disappointing. Well, but you understand

1524
01:59:55,720 --> 02:00:00,359
that if I recall in Sumacontrad and
Telas, Aquinas actually makes that that line

1525
02:00:00,359 --> 02:00:04,600
of argumentation that the Old Testament reveals
God's sort of unitarian existence, and then

1526
02:00:04,680 --> 02:00:11,560
with Christ and the Apostles we get
this new revelation of the Trinity. I

1527
02:00:11,680 --> 02:00:15,560
think too, I'd say that I
think the trend is being able to lose

1528
02:00:15,600 --> 02:00:20,319
with his language. I would say
that I don't think that the patriarchs necessarily

1529
02:00:20,479 --> 02:00:24,399
had a full understanding of the interior
life of the Trinity, but I do

1530
02:00:24,520 --> 02:00:29,079
believe like it's very clear in the
text when in Genesis, when the three

1531
02:00:29,119 --> 02:00:32,840
angels are appearing to Abraham, that's
obviously at the very least the type and

1532
02:00:32,920 --> 02:00:39,840
sign, but the language is used
literally that that is God. So right

1533
02:00:39,880 --> 02:00:43,680
now, and you understand too,
there's also like dozens and dozens of other

1534
02:00:44,159 --> 02:00:46,560
theophanies in the Old Testament too.
Okay, yep, I watched your debates

1535
02:00:46,640 --> 02:00:53,279
with with Shabi Ali and the other
Masamthella. Okay, well, I'm gonna

1536
02:00:53,279 --> 02:00:55,439
do it. I'm going to start
a whole new series now. I'm gonna

1537
02:00:55,439 --> 02:01:00,600
go with their every Theophany and Trinity
of Christ passage in the Old so that

1538
02:01:00,680 --> 02:01:03,920
that's going to be the series.
It's a great idea. In the nineteen

1539
02:01:03,960 --> 02:01:11,800
fifty five liturgy for the Easter Vigil
which I attend yearly, they also have

1540
02:01:12,119 --> 02:01:16,439
there's some texts that the whole idea
is that you're you're tracing Christ's presence or

1541
02:01:16,520 --> 02:01:23,359
the promise of Christ throughout the Old
Testament. And there's simply more readings there.

1542
02:01:23,479 --> 02:01:27,760
So there's some interesting ones that I
had before. There was, for

1543
02:01:27,960 --> 02:01:30,800
prinstance, one in Baruk which I
hadn't hadn't been brought to my attention yet.

1544
02:01:30,880 --> 02:01:32,880
Yeah, there's a whole bunch of
these. In fact, when I

1545
02:01:33,399 --> 02:01:36,119
did a talk on this three or
four years ago and it was about three

1546
02:01:36,199 --> 02:01:44,399
hour talk. And then since that
time, I've reread the Genesis, Judges,

1547
02:01:44,479 --> 02:01:47,399
actually I reread most of the New
Testament since then, maybe a few

1548
02:01:47,439 --> 02:01:50,680
times over, and there was all
these passages in Isaiah I totally missed.

1549
02:01:51,520 --> 02:01:56,640
There was passages, and I missed
the passage in Judges, I think Judges

1550
02:01:56,680 --> 02:02:00,560
six where it says Yahweh turned his
face to get in. I totally miss

1551
02:02:00,640 --> 02:02:06,640
that. So I mean I missed
these things. That's everywhere. So you

1552
02:02:06,680 --> 02:02:15,359
and you were speaking with with pinesap
earlier, the ecclesiastical discussion came up where

1553
02:02:15,399 --> 02:02:21,800
you were speaking about so there's it
was referencing some particular scholar with regards to

1554
02:02:23,399 --> 02:02:29,159
this list of the dogma. So
I was the whole thing that was screaming

1555
02:02:29,199 --> 02:02:32,800
to me at the at that time
is that, I mean, theoretically speaking

1556
02:02:33,359 --> 02:02:38,560
as a way of knowing, the
pope or a council could declare those things.

1557
02:02:38,640 --> 02:02:41,199
Do you do you disagree with that
assumption or because wait a minute,

1558
02:02:41,439 --> 02:02:43,840
but this is what I find to
be really and I'm not trimming mean to

1559
02:02:43,880 --> 02:02:46,840
you, but really absurd is the
idea that, you know, the Roman

1560
02:02:46,960 --> 02:02:53,119
Church is the oracle from which we
look to find out what the magisterial dogmatic

1561
02:02:53,199 --> 02:02:57,479
teachings are. We've never been given
a list of this. Oh but one

1562
02:02:57,560 --> 02:03:00,640
day we'll get that list. So
that to me is just propast has given

1563
02:03:00,640 --> 02:03:03,760
the fact that the purpose of the
existence of the papacy was to provide that,

1564
02:03:04,479 --> 02:03:09,199
and now we're actually saying that it
hasn't provided that it's going to maybe

1565
02:03:09,319 --> 02:03:11,199
provide that one day in the future. You don't think that's kind of just

1566
02:03:11,399 --> 02:03:15,039
ridiculous. And by the way,
by the way, you're not ever going

1567
02:03:15,119 --> 02:03:17,880
to get that right. We know
that, like France is not going to

1568
02:03:17,960 --> 02:03:24,399
give you the infallible list of the
infallible dogmas. So the okay, So

1569
02:03:24,760 --> 02:03:27,279
the way that I see it,
though, it seems it seems as though

1570
02:03:27,399 --> 02:03:32,239
the magisterian is constantly doing not exactly
that, but is giving us the knowledge

1571
02:03:32,239 --> 02:03:39,600
which we need regarding any particular topic
that is a controversy or well. But

1572
02:03:40,439 --> 02:03:44,439
you see that even though for example, they might put out a new document

1573
02:03:44,680 --> 02:03:47,760
or an insyclical, you know,
addressing this to that issue like that itself

1574
02:03:47,960 --> 02:03:53,000
isn't doing me much because I,
then, like every other Roman Catholic does,

1575
02:03:53,079 --> 02:03:56,199
has to go through that document and
try to figure out, well away,

1576
02:03:56,319 --> 02:03:59,760
is this sentence actually part of the
universal ordinary magistran that was reflected in

1577
02:03:59,800 --> 02:04:02,159
all the other previous documents. Is
this a new private opinion of the pope

1578
02:04:02,439 --> 02:04:05,680
or is this now part of the
ordinary teaching which I do have to accept

1579
02:04:05,720 --> 02:04:09,399
but might be fallible? You see
that it's not. You're not in any

1580
02:04:09,479 --> 02:04:12,920
better position if you just say even
if you say that, well, there's

1581
02:04:12,960 --> 02:04:16,439
a new document that addresses the controversies
like, it's still the issue is still

1582
02:04:16,479 --> 02:04:20,560
there, like and that's why every
Roman Catholic comes up with a different list

1583
02:04:20,640 --> 02:04:27,279
of what the things I have to
believe are. Yeah, I guess I

1584
02:04:27,399 --> 02:04:31,000
understand your critique in that sense.
I just and this is sort of my

1585
02:04:31,079 --> 02:04:36,359
subjective feeling on the subject. So
this is but it seems to me like

1586
02:04:38,079 --> 02:04:41,840
one can, if one is being
charitable, one can get at least a

1587
02:04:41,920 --> 02:04:45,439
reasonable understanding of the faith. It
seems to me like a lot of well,

1588
02:04:45,479 --> 02:04:48,239
okay, well I will grant so
I agree that Rome has laid out

1589
02:04:48,479 --> 02:04:55,039
those basic criteria right like it has
said it's got it. So there's Extraordinary

1590
02:04:55,079 --> 02:04:58,439
Magisterrum, which is absolutely binding,
you know, that's you know, directly

1591
02:04:58,560 --> 02:05:03,079
pronounced and for the on faith and
morals by the Therapeter. There's the Universal

1592
02:05:03,199 --> 02:05:10,159
Ordinary Teaching, which is also under
the terrorism and reflects anything that the Church

1593
02:05:10,199 --> 02:05:13,840
has always taught at all times.
And then there's the ordinary teaching, which

1594
02:05:14,000 --> 02:05:16,600
might err but must, as I
understand, be submitted to with docility even

1595
02:05:16,640 --> 02:05:20,720
if you disagree. But again the
issue is not does Rome give you a

1596
02:05:20,800 --> 02:05:26,880
criteria? The point is that you've
got three vague criteria and The reason I'm

1597
02:05:26,880 --> 02:05:30,319
saying vague is not that the criteria
themselves are not precise, but there are

1598
02:05:30,359 --> 02:05:34,359
three vague criteria for a giant,
massive documents, which I'm bound by all

1599
02:05:34,399 --> 02:05:38,520
the Papal teachings. That means that
if I buy the four or five hundred

1600
02:05:38,520 --> 02:05:42,439
dollars set of the Papal Teachings,
which is an actual set, you know,

1601
02:05:42,520 --> 02:05:44,479
that might be a thousand dollars in
I don't know what it is.

1602
02:05:44,560 --> 02:05:46,239
But if I buy that set,
that's all the papal and cyclicals for the

1603
02:05:46,319 --> 02:05:50,800
last several hundred years. I'm bound
by all of those documents. I'm bound

1604
02:05:50,840 --> 02:05:54,960
by everything that's in Denzinger. I'm
bound by all the things that are in

1605
02:05:56,319 --> 02:06:00,159
the Catechism that line up with that
as well. And I'm also bound by

1606
02:06:00,199 --> 02:06:02,560
the ecumenical councils and their teachings insofar
as they're approved by the Pope. So

1607
02:06:02,640 --> 02:06:09,520
that's a giant stack of documents.
So I have three criteria that I'm then

1608
02:06:09,880 --> 02:06:14,359
supposed to understand and dig through these
documents to find and put in the right

1609
02:06:14,520 --> 02:06:19,439
bin. To me, it's just
a sort of outlandish to think that you're

1610
02:06:19,479 --> 02:06:23,960
in any better position than a Protestant
in fact, the Protestant has actually less

1611
02:06:24,039 --> 02:06:27,199
documents to comb through. He only
has the Bible. But you have the

1612
02:06:27,239 --> 02:06:30,279
Bible in all of these other tens
of thousands of papal documents that you're bound

1613
02:06:30,319 --> 02:06:33,319
by that you have to hope that
you're putting into the right bins. Now,

1614
02:06:33,840 --> 02:06:39,319
how is that any better than a
Protestant position when you could very easily

1615
02:06:39,399 --> 02:06:42,880
be putting them in the wrong bins. And isn't this exactly exemplified by the