WEBVTT 1 00:00:21.000 --> 00:00:26.640 Hello, and welcome to Western SIEV. In this bonus author interview, I 2 00:00:26.679 --> 00:00:32.520 sit down with Christopher Gusha and we discuss his new book, Vietnam A New 3 00:00:32.640 --> 00:00:39.560 History. Vietnam is spoiler and lord more than just the war that would engulf 4 00:00:39.640 --> 00:00:43.719 the region and the United States of America for a twelve year period in the 5 00:00:43.799 --> 00:00:49.159 nineteen sixties and nineteen seventies. It's a lot more. It's in many ways 6 00:00:49.840 --> 00:00:56.960 the nexus of a number of different cultures and movements. His book is very 7 00:00:57.039 --> 00:01:00.200 thorough and we'll give you a total understanding of everything that you would need to 8 00:01:00.280 --> 00:01:07.359 know about this region and the people who inhabited. It's a rich history. 9 00:01:07.120 --> 00:01:15.159 We delve into the distant past, connections with Western civilization and more. The 10 00:01:15.200 --> 00:01:18.680 book, as always, is available for purchase right now. There's a link 11 00:01:18.719 --> 00:01:21.239 in the show notes. You can click it to get to it. It's 12 00:01:21.280 --> 00:01:51.000 available anywhere. So with further ado, here's the interview. All right, 13 00:01:51.000 --> 00:01:53.400 As I mentioned moments ago, I'm sitting down here with historian Christopher Goosha, 14 00:01:53.439 --> 00:01:59.640 and we're talking about his new book, Vietnam a New History, and that 15 00:01:59.680 --> 00:02:04.400 word, if you're in America, brings up certain feelings most Americans when they 16 00:02:04.400 --> 00:02:07.560 hear the word Vietnam, think of the war that cut the nation almost in 17 00:02:07.599 --> 00:02:13.360 half. Yet, as you begin in the beginning pointing out in your book, 18 00:02:13.639 --> 00:02:20.599 America was hardly the first imperial power to intervene in Vietnam. And I'm 19 00:02:20.599 --> 00:02:23.919 maybe using that term anachronistically at that point, but I'm going to use it 20 00:02:23.960 --> 00:02:31.240 for simplicity. What was it and what makes it still? That makes Vietnam 21 00:02:31.319 --> 00:02:38.800 still such an enticing and essential prospect for imperial powers looking to expand. Yeah, 22 00:02:39.039 --> 00:02:42.599 well, Adam, thank you first of all for inviting me to your 23 00:02:42.639 --> 00:02:46.039 podcast. It's a real pleasure and it's a real honor. I think you're 24 00:02:46.120 --> 00:02:51.599 right though, Americans, they know Vietnam by the war. They know what 25 00:02:51.719 --> 00:02:55.479 is kind of this s shaped country which was divided in half in the middle 26 00:02:55.520 --> 00:02:59.319 of the twentieth century. After the French got out of their war with the 27 00:02:59.400 --> 00:03:02.159 Vietnamese led by Ho Chi Ming, the government that was led by Ho Chimin, 28 00:03:02.560 --> 00:03:08.439 then the Americans took over and supported a southern Vietnam against Ho Chi Ming's 29 00:03:08.639 --> 00:03:13.879 Northern Vietnam. So, yeah, it's this s Vietnam that we know divided 30 00:03:13.919 --> 00:03:16.560 in half during the Vietnam War and has only been united back into its kind 31 00:03:16.560 --> 00:03:21.759 of s form since the fall of Saigon fifty years ago. This year, 32 00:03:21.800 --> 00:03:24.680 by the way, in a couple of months, we'll celebrate that anniversary. 33 00:03:25.520 --> 00:03:30.759 So yeah, it does occupy an important place in the American imagination. And 34 00:03:30.960 --> 00:03:35.759 you know, let's be honest, a lot of folks, you know, 35 00:03:36.000 --> 00:03:40.000 they have fathers, grandfathers who were involved in the war as well. Your 36 00:03:40.080 --> 00:03:45.199 question is a great one. It's something that interests me greatly. Is what 37 00:03:45.400 --> 00:03:50.240 is it that made this small s like country divided in half or not so 38 00:03:50.479 --> 00:03:53.639 interesting for so many people? And it is true if we start in the 39 00:03:53.639 --> 00:03:59.599 twentieth century, it clearly was important for the Americans, and then before the 40 00:03:59.639 --> 00:04:02.680 America, it was the French. Before the French, it was the Japanese. 41 00:04:03.039 --> 00:04:05.800 And then we can even go back in time. And so if we 42 00:04:05.879 --> 00:04:09.560 go back in time, and I'm gonna try to answer your question this way, 43 00:04:10.159 --> 00:04:13.560 I think that there are places in the world for the better and for 44 00:04:13.639 --> 00:04:19.319 the worst, that are gateways. And because they're gateways, they're coveted because 45 00:04:19.360 --> 00:04:23.560 they're on the edge of one empire. For example, Vietnam is on the 46 00:04:23.639 --> 00:04:28.120 edge of this massive empire, which, unlike the Roman Empire, still exists. 47 00:04:28.120 --> 00:04:31.279 It's called China. It's it's kind of a gateway. So if you 48 00:04:31.279 --> 00:04:33.800 you know your listeners, they might want to take a look at a map 49 00:04:33.879 --> 00:04:38.199 after we're done, perhaps, and you can see that Vietnam is in this 50 00:04:38.319 --> 00:04:44.279 unique position where it's between East Asia and Southeast Asia. It's between the Indian 51 00:04:44.319 --> 00:04:46.519 Ocean world. You know, that goes all the way, you know, 52 00:04:46.759 --> 00:04:51.639 beyond Southeast Asia to the Middle East, across this massive ocean. So it's 53 00:04:51.639 --> 00:04:56.160 it's it's it's it's linked to the Indian Ocean world. But at the same 54 00:04:56.160 --> 00:05:00.519 time it's linked to the Pacific Ocean as well, which is what brought it 55 00:05:00.560 --> 00:05:04.879 into contact with the Americans. So what's interesting is that I do believe, 56 00:05:04.959 --> 00:05:10.079 and I tried to show in the book, that Vietnam was coveted. It 57 00:05:10.199 --> 00:05:15.360 was in a place that was coveted by big empires that touched up against each 58 00:05:15.439 --> 00:05:18.040 other. If I could just go on for one more second, what I 59 00:05:18.079 --> 00:05:23.000 find fascinating is that you have the Americans, the French, and the Japanese. 60 00:05:23.040 --> 00:05:25.519 It's in the twentieth century. I think most of our listeners, you 61 00:05:25.560 --> 00:05:28.279 know, they kind of know about a little bit of that. Certainly, 62 00:05:28.319 --> 00:05:30.680 the Americans. But what they might not know is that when the Mongols, 63 00:05:31.160 --> 00:05:35.759 yes, the Mongols in the thirteenth century got rolling and they went all the 64 00:05:35.800 --> 00:05:41.199 way to Bagdad across Eurasia the Silk Road. They also went all the way 65 00:05:41.240 --> 00:05:45.720 to the border with Vietnam, the northern border when the Mongols overthrew the Chinese 66 00:05:45.720 --> 00:05:50.160 in the late thirteenth century. What I knew but didn't really understand that well 67 00:05:50.319 --> 00:05:57.480 was Kublai Khan, who ruled the China for the Mongols. He wanted Vietnam 68 00:05:57.639 --> 00:06:01.120 and he invaded it three times at Lee and each time the Vietnamese beat them 69 00:06:01.160 --> 00:06:04.720 back. But why did he want it? And this is really interesting is 70 00:06:04.759 --> 00:06:10.319 that Kublai Khan he knew that Vietnam was linked to the Indian Ocean world and 71 00:06:10.399 --> 00:06:15.000 to its riches, so he went by the Silk Road overland, but he 72 00:06:15.040 --> 00:06:18.680 wanted to go by the Maritimes Silk Road as well. So you can see 73 00:06:18.720 --> 00:06:24.399 that Vietnam has been in this position for centuries and just to it's a very 74 00:06:24.439 --> 00:06:28.879 long answer to your very short question. But when the Chinese finally threw out 75 00:06:28.920 --> 00:06:32.399 the Mongols and created their own empire, and it's the Ming Empire, Minng, 76 00:06:33.399 --> 00:06:39.319 and that was in thirteen sixty eight. What's interesting is that the third 77 00:06:39.399 --> 00:06:42.839 emperor of the Ming dynasty, at the beginning of the fifteenth century, he 78 00:06:42.920 --> 00:06:48.319 invaded occupied Vietnam for twenty years, and the Vietnamese fought him back again in 79 00:06:48.360 --> 00:06:51.639 a very violent war. But why did the Ming do this? In part, 80 00:06:51.759 --> 00:06:55.800 they did it because they wanted to get to the Indian Ocean. And 81 00:06:55.839 --> 00:06:59.720 again it was at exactly that time, the early fifteenth century, that the 82 00:06:59.800 --> 00:07:03.680 china Ese came rolling into Vietnam that they also sent their eight seven or eight 83 00:07:03.759 --> 00:07:09.040 expeditions all the way into the Indian Ocean. That's a long answer to a 84 00:07:09.120 --> 00:07:12.560 short question. I really apologize for that, but I want to make the 85 00:07:12.680 --> 00:07:15.079 argument, and it's kind of the argument I'm making the book, is that 86 00:07:15.680 --> 00:07:18.959 this country, for better or worse, maybe a little bit like Ukraine as 87 00:07:19.000 --> 00:07:23.759 well on the western side of Eurasia. It's a gateway. It's a gateway. 88 00:07:23.839 --> 00:07:27.519 Ukraine, we know, is a gateway between kind of Central Asia and 89 00:07:28.079 --> 00:07:31.079 Western Europe. And I would say that Vietnam, to a certain extent is 90 00:07:31.079 --> 00:07:35.680 something of a gateway between kind of eastern Eurasia, China, and the Indian 91 00:07:35.680 --> 00:07:40.920 Ocean and when the Americans come rolling in the Pacific Ocean. As well as 92 00:07:40.959 --> 00:07:44.040 a long answer, I apologize for that, but you asked me an interesting 93 00:07:44.120 --> 00:07:47.240 question. By all means, I mean, I think the other thing I 94 00:07:47.240 --> 00:07:53.720 think is interesting about that is we think of the Mongols as these terrific conquerors, 95 00:07:53.759 --> 00:07:58.680 this war machine that really has only stopped at a couple of places they 96 00:07:58.720 --> 00:08:01.720 make it, I believe to it attempts to invade Japan, and you could 97 00:08:01.800 --> 00:08:07.480 argue that it's really the ocean that turns them back both of those times. 98 00:08:07.879 --> 00:08:11.480 But you can't make that same argument in Vietnam. There's no sort of divine 99 00:08:11.560 --> 00:08:15.920 intervention. I think what they learned is what a lot of people are going 100 00:08:15.959 --> 00:08:18.759 to learn, which is there are some places in the world that are are 101 00:08:18.839 --> 00:08:22.560 gateways. Then there are also some places in the world that are really hard 102 00:08:22.560 --> 00:08:26.680 to conquer and hold on to. And a lot of modern people are going 103 00:08:26.720 --> 00:08:28.680 to find that out too about Vietnam. You know, Afghanistan is one of 104 00:08:28.680 --> 00:08:31.919 those places too, where it's just ooh, that is a tough place. 105 00:08:33.759 --> 00:08:35.840 If you're going to try to set up shop and dominate the people there, 106 00:08:37.120 --> 00:08:39.559 you're in for it. And maybe we'll talk a little bit more about that 107 00:08:39.679 --> 00:08:45.039 later on, But I had another sort of broad question, and that is 108 00:08:45.279 --> 00:08:48.000 I got this idea when I was reading the book that we do tend to 109 00:08:48.000 --> 00:08:54.080 think about nation states like Vietnam, and I really mean states that were colonized 110 00:08:54.120 --> 00:08:58.480 at some point. We're part of someone's colonial apparatus. And you'll see this 111 00:08:58.519 --> 00:09:01.480 a lot of times in textbooks. We're all say pre colonial, post colonial 112 00:09:01.519 --> 00:09:05.480 history, and it'll kind of draw that line down a map. And as 113 00:09:05.519 --> 00:09:07.159 I was reading the book, I just kept thinking like, Yeah, this 114 00:09:07.279 --> 00:09:13.279 is this is definitely a mistake as we're doing this. And I wondered if 115 00:09:13.320 --> 00:09:15.919 you could talk about that a little bit because it was so clear to me 116 00:09:16.320 --> 00:09:20.759 as I was digging into the book. Sure, well, it's another great 117 00:09:20.879 --> 00:09:26.039 question. When I was asked to write the book, it was kind of 118 00:09:26.720 --> 00:09:30.919 basic books in Penguin before they asked me to write kind of a general history 119 00:09:31.600 --> 00:09:35.200 of Vietnam. So it could in my case, it's a general history of 120 00:09:35.279 --> 00:09:37.480 Vietnam. It could be a general history of Egypt. It could be a 121 00:09:37.519 --> 00:09:41.039 general history of China, Great Britain, any country that you like. But 122 00:09:41.120 --> 00:09:46.039 if it is one of these countries that, as you say, would fall 123 00:09:46.080 --> 00:09:52.000 into a colonial apparatus run by the Westerners. It does, and it has 124 00:09:52.159 --> 00:09:56.600 led those of us writing these general textbooks on countries, for example, to 125 00:09:56.679 --> 00:10:00.440 have to choose, and we always have to choose when we're right. I 126 00:10:00.440 --> 00:10:03.240 think you would agree with that. We always have to set up some sort 127 00:10:03.279 --> 00:10:07.200 of a periodization that we're going to use. When I was conceiving my book, 128 00:10:07.240 --> 00:10:11.720 though, I wanted to be careful because there's there's a danger in picking 129 00:10:13.320 --> 00:10:16.799 eighteen fifty eight for Vietnam when the French came knocking on the door. There's 130 00:10:16.840 --> 00:10:22.759 a danger in picking eighteen forty two for China when the British with the Opium 131 00:10:22.799 --> 00:10:26.200 Wars came knocking on the Chinese door. As you know, and I'm sure 132 00:10:26.240 --> 00:10:30.080 many of your listeners do as well. Just to pick maybe another example, 133 00:10:31.000 --> 00:10:35.720 how about seventeen ninety eight in Egypt when Napoleon Napoleon, when Napoleon came rolling 134 00:10:35.799 --> 00:10:39.480 into to Egypt, and when we set up our books, a lot of 135 00:10:39.559 --> 00:10:45.679 us, I can understand, to some extent, we saw those dates as 136 00:10:45.799 --> 00:10:48.799 that's when the modern period began, That's when the West came. A lot 137 00:10:48.840 --> 00:10:52.919 of the books they have the West opened up, you know, opened up 138 00:10:54.159 --> 00:10:58.840 the China opened up, Vietnam opened up, Egypt brought in modernization, all 139 00:11:00.000 --> 00:11:03.120 those things that we associate with modernity. I won't name them, but I 140 00:11:03.120 --> 00:11:07.159 think, you know, our listeners will know what they are. And we 141 00:11:07.240 --> 00:11:09.919 have to pick again, you know, dates at which we start our books. 142 00:11:09.960 --> 00:11:11.919 But I wanted to be careful in my book to say, be careful 143 00:11:11.960 --> 00:11:18.200 when you pick these dates, because they they black out a lot of other 144 00:11:18.240 --> 00:11:22.399 stuff that happened before, and a lot of those things can really help us 145 00:11:22.399 --> 00:11:26.559 to better understand that which would happen after. And so I know we're talking 146 00:11:26.600 --> 00:11:31.799 about Vietnam, but you can't talk about China without talking about the remarkable modernity. 147 00:11:31.840 --> 00:11:35.919 For example, of the Song dynasty between the ninth and the twelfth century, 148 00:11:37.919 --> 00:11:39.879 you got if you start in eighteen forty two, you missed the Ming, 149 00:11:41.039 --> 00:11:43.720 that's for sure. And I think you can make an argument that had 150 00:11:43.759 --> 00:11:46.399 the Ming kept on trucking, if I can put it that way, in 151 00:11:46.480 --> 00:11:50.720 the Indian Ocean, you know, had they not pulled their ships back, 152 00:11:50.759 --> 00:11:56.600 and these were big expeditions during the first half to fifteenth century, the map 153 00:11:56.600 --> 00:12:01.120 of the world could have been a lot different. So that's important, and 154 00:12:01.159 --> 00:12:05.039 it's the same for Vietnam. If you choose eighteen fifty eight to start everything, 155 00:12:05.440 --> 00:12:09.679 you miss a lot of what became before. And maybe to answer your 156 00:12:09.799 --> 00:12:16.879 question, you miss certain levels of modernity that existed in Vietnam before eighteen fifty 157 00:12:16.879 --> 00:12:24.559 eight. You missed the fact that Vietnam was an empire itself, like the 158 00:12:24.639 --> 00:12:28.080 ming Ware as well. And it's not just a French empire, but there 159 00:12:28.120 --> 00:12:31.639 was actually a Vietnamese empire. And believe me, the Cambodians, Alloosians, 160 00:12:31.759 --> 00:12:35.559 the chim they're as much aware of the Vietnamese Empire as they are of the 161 00:12:35.600 --> 00:12:39.080 French Empire, you know what I mean. So those are two examples of 162 00:12:39.120 --> 00:12:45.799 things you can miss. You can miss pre Western forms of modernity, and 163 00:12:45.840 --> 00:12:50.440 you can miss pre and non Western forms of Yeah, and I think it 164 00:12:50.559 --> 00:12:56.639 is a Western history podcast obviously, but you know, try not to define 165 00:12:56.840 --> 00:13:01.320 everything in terms of you know, West are in definitions. You know. 166 00:13:01.120 --> 00:13:05.639 That's the problem when a lot of times when when you know, different textbooks 167 00:13:05.639 --> 00:13:09.000 will talk about like, well this is progress. Now, well they mean 168 00:13:09.080 --> 00:13:13.840 progress from a Western standpoint, and that's not necessarily fair. But I would 169 00:13:13.919 --> 00:13:20.600 just say I'm someone I have absolutely nothing against teaching Western civilization or Chinese civilization 170 00:13:20.720 --> 00:13:24.960 or Eastern civilization. But I would I would actually add to what you say 171 00:13:26.039 --> 00:13:31.600 is that it makes history more interesting when we can compare the fact that there's 172 00:13:31.600 --> 00:13:35.879 different forms of imperialism, different forms of modernity that we can talk about. 173 00:13:35.919 --> 00:13:39.440 So my book, I think you might recall, is that it's not really 174 00:13:39.720 --> 00:13:43.639 hostile to the West, it's just trying to open it up to the rest, 175 00:13:45.200 --> 00:13:46.799 if I may, Yeah, it's a perfect way of putting it, 176 00:13:46.840 --> 00:13:50.480 and I think that's a great way of understanding history. To be honest with 177 00:13:50.519 --> 00:13:54.200 you, Let's talk a little bit more about Vietnam specifically. Now, I 178 00:13:54.240 --> 00:13:58.559 want to start, and I am using these terms anachronistically because of course there 179 00:13:58.600 --> 00:14:05.360 was no thing is with quotes around it China or Vietnam at this time. 180 00:14:05.440 --> 00:14:09.080 But I wonder if you could start to talk about the relationship between we could 181 00:14:09.080 --> 00:14:13.519 say, at least the Chinese and the Vietnamese in the third and second centuries 182 00:14:13.600 --> 00:14:16.360 BCE, sort of when we're going back, we're really kind of starting the 183 00:14:16.399 --> 00:14:22.200 interaction between those two cultures. You know, what did that look like? 184 00:14:22.360 --> 00:14:26.519 And I guess I will say for listeners, if you're if you're not familiar 185 00:14:26.679 --> 00:14:30.720 with the topography and geography. You know, it is actually a little helpful 186 00:14:30.840 --> 00:14:35.799 to take a quick glance at a map and just just see the physical relationship 187 00:14:35.799 --> 00:14:39.080 between the two, because it's it's kind of obvious that there's going to be 188 00:14:39.120 --> 00:14:43.240 an interaction. Sure well, I would I would say, you know, 189 00:14:43.519 --> 00:14:50.559 at the time which the Roman Empire was coming into being on the western end 190 00:14:50.600 --> 00:14:54.360 of Eurasia, in the Mediterranean obviously in Rome, I call it the third, 191 00:14:54.440 --> 00:14:58.639 fourth, fifth, sixth century before the Common Era, but when it 192 00:14:58.679 --> 00:15:01.440 really started to to take off, as you know, I don't know, 193 00:15:01.519 --> 00:15:05.720 let's call it the third century before the Common Era. You have something similar 194 00:15:05.840 --> 00:15:09.159 going on on the eastern side of eur Asia. You have something similar going 195 00:15:09.200 --> 00:15:11.639 on in what we call China today. Between the Yellow River if you look 196 00:15:11.639 --> 00:15:16.200 on that map and the Yangxi River, you've got a core a little bit 197 00:15:16.240 --> 00:15:18.879 like Rome and the Mediterranean was a core. There's a core group here as 198 00:15:18.879 --> 00:15:24.039 well in China. And it's in that area between those two huge rivers that 199 00:15:24.519 --> 00:15:28.879 cross all of China that you have the birth of the Qing dynasty qi N. 200 00:15:28.279 --> 00:15:33.440 You have the birth of the Han dynasty h N and the Han dynasty, 201 00:15:33.240 --> 00:15:39.120 you know, third century before the Common era to the third century of 202 00:15:39.159 --> 00:15:43.799 this era, you know, it coincided with the Roman Empire more or less. 203 00:15:43.840 --> 00:15:46.000 You know, the days aren't quite the same, but the two communicated 204 00:15:46.039 --> 00:15:48.679 with each other, the two on both ends of your Asia. We have 205 00:15:48.759 --> 00:15:52.960 these huge empires that came into being, or that it got bigger and bigger. 206 00:15:54.480 --> 00:15:56.440 They communicated with each other by the Silk Road, as I think most 207 00:15:56.440 --> 00:16:02.039 of your listeners will know. But again, I'm very favorable to you know, 208 00:16:02.440 --> 00:16:04.120 the West and the rest, and it's interesting to put them on kind 209 00:16:04.120 --> 00:16:10.200 of a parallel in a parallel framework. So to answer your question, in 210 00:16:10.240 --> 00:16:12.200 the far East, in what we call China today, you have the birth 211 00:16:12.240 --> 00:16:18.679 of the Han dynasty, and the Han dynasty will slowly but surely move to 212 00:16:18.720 --> 00:16:22.679 the south and it will move into what we call southern China today, and 213 00:16:22.720 --> 00:16:27.480 eventually we'll move into what we call northern Vietnam today. So you have this 214 00:16:27.759 --> 00:16:32.000 core empire, let's just call it China. We have to give them names, 215 00:16:32.039 --> 00:16:34.320 you know, we have to call it something. And so you have 216 00:16:34.399 --> 00:16:38.679 this Chinese Empire which is moving southward, just like kind of the Roman Empire 217 00:16:38.720 --> 00:16:44.840 moves all around the Mediterranean and towards the east. So to speak. At 218 00:16:44.840 --> 00:16:48.200 the same time, you have a lot of small polities, you have tribes, 219 00:16:48.320 --> 00:16:52.399 just like you have the goals you know in Western what we call Western 220 00:16:52.440 --> 00:16:57.799 Europe today. So you have the tribes, small polities, small kingdoms in 221 00:16:57.919 --> 00:17:02.840 southern China and north in Vietnam, and the name that the Chinese would give 222 00:17:02.840 --> 00:17:04.400 to them would be well, one would be Barbarian, much like the Romans 223 00:17:04.400 --> 00:17:10.920 would do as well, but another would be the one y U a n 224 00:17:11.079 --> 00:17:14.720 which we translate as kind of the Viet people. So you have these Viet 225 00:17:14.759 --> 00:17:18.839 people and they're situated to the south of the of the Chinese Empire. So 226 00:17:18.960 --> 00:17:25.720 you have the emergence, for example, of a southern Kingdom of Vietnam, 227 00:17:26.119 --> 00:17:32.039 which would be in the second century BC. You also have a little bit 228 00:17:32.079 --> 00:17:34.519 before that, in the third century, before the Common era, you have 229 00:17:36.319 --> 00:17:41.400 near Hanoi, the birth of a state that's called the the I don't want 230 00:17:41.400 --> 00:17:45.000 to get in too many words, but the Kolowa, the Kolowa or al 231 00:17:45.119 --> 00:17:48.759 Viet Kingdom. So you have two small kingdoms in northern what we call Northern 232 00:17:48.839 --> 00:17:53.240 Vietnam today that briefly existed independently. Like other politics in Western Europe did as 233 00:17:53.279 --> 00:17:56.640 well. Until the Han came moving in, just like the Romans came moving 234 00:17:56.640 --> 00:18:00.559 in and conquered them for the better or for the word, and it was 235 00:18:00.640 --> 00:18:04.599 often violent. There's no need to paper that over. It was often violent 236 00:18:04.599 --> 00:18:11.000 because that's what conquerors do. And the Vietnamese, I'll say that that word. 237 00:18:11.000 --> 00:18:15.160 The viet would enter into the Han Empire, which would be taken over 238 00:18:15.200 --> 00:18:26.359 by the Tang dynasty later and for a thousand years, those brief Vietnamese kingdoms 239 00:18:26.400 --> 00:18:30.599 that existed before the Common Error disappear. They're integrated into the Roman Empire, 240 00:18:30.839 --> 00:18:36.400 much like the Goal were integrated into the Roman Empire as well, until the 241 00:18:36.440 --> 00:18:38.839 Western Empire fell, you know, in the fourth century or the fifth century, 242 00:18:38.880 --> 00:18:41.519 depending on how you wanted to find the end of the end of the 243 00:18:41.559 --> 00:18:47.000 Western Empire in Rome. So you have something similar that's going on, you 244 00:18:47.000 --> 00:18:51.599 know, the Goal who will eventually become let's say the French. They owe 245 00:18:51.599 --> 00:18:56.640 a lot to this big empire, the Roman Empire, just as the Vietnamese 246 00:18:56.880 --> 00:19:02.240 were part of the Chinese Empire until the tenth century. We'll get to that 247 00:19:02.279 --> 00:19:06.079 in a moment if you want, but that's a long time that they were 248 00:19:06.079 --> 00:19:08.279 in it. I think what's maybe interesting for your listeners to keep in mind. 249 00:19:08.559 --> 00:19:14.559 And we get back to this kind of this geopolitical question that you posed 250 00:19:14.559 --> 00:19:18.359 in the beginning, Why is this place always so coveted? I think it's 251 00:19:18.359 --> 00:19:22.599 important maybe for your listeners to remember that if the Western Roman Empire fell in 252 00:19:22.680 --> 00:19:30.119 the third or fourth century, and if it never came back, we can't 253 00:19:30.119 --> 00:19:36.039 say the same about what happened in East Asia. The Haden Empire would fall, 254 00:19:36.680 --> 00:19:38.640 but for better or for worse, not without a lot of fighting between 255 00:19:38.640 --> 00:19:45.039 the states. The Chinese Empire would piece itself back together again. So in 256 00:19:45.400 --> 00:19:52.119 Western Europe people tried to rebuild a Roman Empire. You could argue that Hitler 257 00:19:52.160 --> 00:19:55.079 was the latest to try to do it. It didn't work. The Chinese 258 00:19:55.079 --> 00:19:59.960 Empire is there to this very day. And so even when the Vietnamese left 259 00:20:00.079 --> 00:20:04.160 the Chinese Empire when the Tong dynasty fell apart in the ninth and tenth centuries, 260 00:20:04.160 --> 00:20:07.839 and the Vietnamese will regain their independence if you want, in the tenth 261 00:20:07.920 --> 00:20:15.119 century, they always had to deal with this massive empire with which they shared 262 00:20:15.440 --> 00:20:19.839 a border. Huh. And this I think is something that's that's really important. 263 00:20:19.839 --> 00:20:25.039 Again, another long answer Adam to a very short question. Sorry about 264 00:20:25.079 --> 00:20:30.359 that, No, perfectly, okay, I mean it is worth remembering that. 265 00:20:30.319 --> 00:20:33.920 And I'm going to use the word China. Throughout the centuries, its 266 00:20:33.279 --> 00:20:38.279 borders have changed, the names have changed, you know, but you could 267 00:20:38.359 --> 00:20:41.920 you could always see it. And there are reverses, of course, there 268 00:20:41.920 --> 00:20:47.440 are there are times when the kingdom is in retreat, you know, but 269 00:20:47.599 --> 00:20:52.240 even up through the Qing, the last imperial dynasty, you know, you 270 00:20:52.480 --> 00:20:57.759 have additions to China that dramatically increase its size to what it really is today, 271 00:20:57.839 --> 00:21:02.240 to its modern borders. If you kind of look at China preaching, 272 00:21:02.680 --> 00:21:04.519 you know, there's no Tibat, you know, there's not a lot in 273 00:21:04.559 --> 00:21:11.279 the north. So it is those that ever growing threat. It's right. 274 00:21:11.319 --> 00:21:15.680 It'd be like if suddenly, I'm just going to say, like suddenly in 275 00:21:15.720 --> 00:21:21.799 the you know, ninth century, you know, Charlemagne is able somehow to 276 00:21:21.960 --> 00:21:26.559 piece back together the entirety of the Roman Empire and it has a new name. 277 00:21:27.440 --> 00:21:30.920 The world be very different if that were the case. Believe me, 278 00:21:30.119 --> 00:21:33.960 the world would be a very different place today. And obviously a lot of 279 00:21:33.000 --> 00:21:37.759 people dreamed of that happening, not least of all Charlemagne. But but I 280 00:21:37.759 --> 00:21:41.680 think your point is extremely well taken. But as I think you're saying, 281 00:21:41.839 --> 00:21:45.119 it never happened. So the French, France never had to deal with, 282 00:21:45.480 --> 00:21:49.440 you know, a big Roman empire neighbor, so to speak, or the 283 00:21:49.440 --> 00:21:52.720 British never had to deal with, you know, a little island over there, 284 00:21:52.759 --> 00:21:56.920 like the Vietnamese in a way having to deal with a continental empire that 285 00:21:56.960 --> 00:22:00.559 reconstituted itself like the Chinese did. Sorry, Adam, I cutch off because 286 00:22:00.720 --> 00:22:03.839 because I think you're making a parallel that I find absolutely a conversation. That's 287 00:22:03.839 --> 00:22:07.720 what I enjoy about it. But let's so let's talk about Vietnam for a 288 00:22:07.720 --> 00:22:11.559 little bit. After after China begins a little bit of a retreat, so 289 00:22:11.599 --> 00:22:18.319 it goes into this period of decline ninth tenth century ish and it it it 290 00:22:19.000 --> 00:22:26.079 isn't able to maintain as much control over the peripheries anymore as it once was, 291 00:22:26.599 --> 00:22:30.519 and that will change again. But during that time period, what happens 292 00:22:30.519 --> 00:22:36.119 in Vietnam is do we have a series of kingdoms? Do we have one 293 00:22:36.279 --> 00:22:38.559 kingdom? Like Well, if we were to sort of take a snapshot in 294 00:22:38.680 --> 00:22:45.680 history as China's fading away temporarily, what would what would we see. So 295 00:22:45.839 --> 00:22:52.440 you mean after the enemies obtain their independence in the tenth century, right, 296 00:22:52.880 --> 00:22:56.680 Yeah, So, I mean it's true what they would see would be the 297 00:22:56.720 --> 00:23:00.680 fading away of the Tong dynasty had been going on for a good hundred years 298 00:23:00.799 --> 00:23:07.519 or so, which created opportunities for them for various people who were within the 299 00:23:07.599 --> 00:23:14.559 Chinese Empire who wanted to take advantage of its falling apart in order to create 300 00:23:14.599 --> 00:23:18.119 this post colonial state, which we're going to call naive. It was the 301 00:23:18.200 --> 00:23:21.880 name. We can call it Vietnam if you want. But the thing that's 302 00:23:21.880 --> 00:23:26.200 important is that the Vietnam that we see today did not exist in that s 303 00:23:26.279 --> 00:23:30.240 form at this time, in the tenth eleventh centuries and all the way until 304 00:23:30.319 --> 00:23:34.720 later. As we'll see, maybe it was Vietnam was Northern Vietnam. Vietnam 305 00:23:36.039 --> 00:23:41.400 was centered on its capital in Hanoi. So what did they see. Well, 306 00:23:41.519 --> 00:23:51.759 on the one hand, they had to create an increasingly effective, centralized 307 00:23:52.039 --> 00:23:56.799 monarchical state. That was the first thing they had to deal with civil wars. 308 00:23:56.880 --> 00:23:59.519 I'm going to be honest with you, as classic whenever an empire breaks 309 00:23:59.559 --> 00:24:03.440 up, there's obviously different people who go after power. That happened, but 310 00:24:03.559 --> 00:24:07.359 let's just say by the beginning of the eleventh century, we do have a 311 00:24:07.519 --> 00:24:15.079 unified, independent Vietnam that exists. So it's going to try to improve agriculture, 312 00:24:15.200 --> 00:24:19.440 improve commerce, tap into this international trade in the Indian Ocean that I 313 00:24:19.480 --> 00:24:25.559 mentioned briefly a moment ago, in order to solidify its state. They'll be 314 00:24:26.359 --> 00:24:30.559 already the Vietnamese will start to look towards the south, to the Cham people. 315 00:24:30.839 --> 00:24:36.599 This is a people who dominated what we call central Vietnam, even parts 316 00:24:36.640 --> 00:24:38.920 of southern Vietnam. They had been there since the beginning of the Common era. 317 00:24:40.400 --> 00:24:45.480 So the idea that Vietnam was only ethnic Vietnamese is problematic, just like 318 00:24:45.599 --> 00:24:48.759 China wasn't just the Han people. Nonetheless, we could go into other examples 319 00:24:48.799 --> 00:24:52.000 as well. But they were tempted by the south, they were tempted by 320 00:24:52.039 --> 00:24:56.079 the poll of the Indian Ocean, they were tempted by the lands of others. 321 00:24:56.359 --> 00:25:00.960 And the Vietnamese were conquerors from an early period. It didn't really get 322 00:25:00.000 --> 00:25:03.640 going till a little bit later on, but nonetheless that was where they looked 323 00:25:03.640 --> 00:25:07.599 as well. They always kept their eye on what was going on in the 324 00:25:07.640 --> 00:25:12.920 north with the Chinese. You know, that was important and of course the 325 00:25:12.960 --> 00:25:19.200 Mongols came rolling in as well well in the thirteenth century in particular, So 326 00:25:21.119 --> 00:25:23.160 there was a lot going on for this coveted part of the world, as 327 00:25:23.200 --> 00:25:27.640 I mentioned a moment ago, so state craft, state building, tapping into 328 00:25:27.640 --> 00:25:33.319 the international commerce, a little bit of colonial movement towards the south. But 329 00:25:33.440 --> 00:25:34.960 oh my goodness, we got to watch out with what's going on in the 330 00:25:34.960 --> 00:25:38.839 north. The Mongols, and then the Chinese would come as well. After 331 00:25:38.880 --> 00:25:42.599 the Mongols. Yeah, let's talk about that, because I want to talk 332 00:25:42.640 --> 00:25:48.799 about the Ming dynasty then becomes expansionist once again in the fourteenth century, and 333 00:25:48.880 --> 00:25:57.119 so how did the Vietnamese and is very aggressive kingdom, So how did the 334 00:25:57.200 --> 00:26:03.519 Vietnamese fare I think it's thirteen sixty eight or so is the year after that 335 00:26:03.599 --> 00:26:08.519 point? How did they manage this new very aggressive Chinese came from to the 336 00:26:08.559 --> 00:26:14.279 north. Yeah, well, as I think some of your listeners will know, 337 00:26:15.400 --> 00:26:18.200 the Mongols will start to pull out and the Chinese will push them out 338 00:26:18.559 --> 00:26:23.880 of China. Excuse me. In the fourteenth century, it gets rolling in 339 00:26:25.000 --> 00:26:29.240 the thirteen forties, thirteen fifties, we get to the thirteen sixties, and 340 00:26:29.319 --> 00:26:37.640 you have the future emperor hong Wu Hnngwu, who will defeat the Mongols, 341 00:26:37.720 --> 00:26:42.559 drive them out, and he creates his capital in the city of Nanjing in 342 00:26:42.599 --> 00:26:47.000 the south, and later he will move it to Beijing in the north. 343 00:26:47.359 --> 00:26:52.640 So he comes to power as you said in thirteen sixty eight, now the 344 00:26:52.720 --> 00:26:59.160 first emperor, he will die in thirteen ninety eight. For the first thirty 345 00:26:59.240 --> 00:27:04.039 years, he was not interested in Vietnam. He was interested in the southwestern 346 00:27:04.039 --> 00:27:07.880 part of what we call China today. So as you said about the Qing 347 00:27:07.960 --> 00:27:11.799 dynasty, later on they would add different blocks to China, for example Tibet. 348 00:27:12.519 --> 00:27:17.240 What's interesting is that the Ming dynasty Hong Woo, this is the Ming. 349 00:27:17.279 --> 00:27:18.720 When he won in thirteen sixty eight, he created the Ming dynasty. 350 00:27:18.960 --> 00:27:23.440 His name is hong Wong. He will colonize what we call Unan Province today, 351 00:27:25.039 --> 00:27:29.559 and so he adds that actually the Mongols had conquered it before, and 352 00:27:29.599 --> 00:27:32.519 he keeps it. The Mongols gave it to him and he will keep it 353 00:27:32.799 --> 00:27:36.279 what we call u Non Province. Now, what's interesting, Adam, is 354 00:27:36.279 --> 00:27:45.240 that he warned his sons don't overreach, fellas, don't overreach, don't overreach 355 00:27:45.279 --> 00:27:48.920 into the Indian Ocean. I know that Kubla Khan and the Mongols wanted to 356 00:27:48.960 --> 00:27:55.119 do that and don't overreach in David or in Vietnam, in northern Vietnam today, 357 00:27:55.640 --> 00:28:00.359 So he warned them. The third emperor who took over were in fourteen 358 00:28:00.400 --> 00:28:07.880 oh two did not listen. And his name is Jonglei Yonngle, And this 359 00:28:08.279 --> 00:28:12.680 is someone who had dreams of expansion, and he went to work on them. 360 00:28:14.160 --> 00:28:15.640 He went to work on him in the southwest as well, like his 361 00:28:15.640 --> 00:28:18.599 father had done. But he's going to do two things, as I mentioned 362 00:28:18.640 --> 00:28:22.519 a moment ago. On the one hand, he's going to send seven sometimes 363 00:28:22.519 --> 00:28:27.799 we say eight huge expeditions into the Indian Ocean to get to the west, 364 00:28:29.319 --> 00:28:32.599 not to Europe, but to the western side of the Indian Ocean. So 365 00:28:32.680 --> 00:28:36.960 this is a century before the Portuguese, you know, go around Southern Africa, 366 00:28:37.039 --> 00:28:41.119 et cetera and get to Malacca. But he wants to get there for 367 00:28:41.160 --> 00:28:45.200 the same reason as the Portuguese and the Spanish and everybody else later, the 368 00:28:45.279 --> 00:28:49.640 richest of this part of the world. So that's really really important. And 369 00:28:49.720 --> 00:28:55.319 what we've learned over the last ten to fifteen years from some amazing research is 370 00:28:55.359 --> 00:29:00.119 that these were in part military missions. So the Iberians Portuguese weren't the only 371 00:29:00.160 --> 00:29:08.119 ones using force, gunpowder, weapons, and soldiers. So were Jungle's ships. 372 00:29:10.079 --> 00:29:14.960 So this is important. Second thing that he did is he decided to 373 00:29:15.039 --> 00:29:18.440 invade Vietnam. I won't go into the details. They're kind of complicated, 374 00:29:18.839 --> 00:29:22.759 but in the end he said, let's go, We're going in. Diviet 375 00:29:22.920 --> 00:29:26.759 was part of China before, it will be part of China today. So 376 00:29:26.799 --> 00:29:30.039 he got rid of the word Vietnam or Diviet as it was called then, 377 00:29:30.519 --> 00:29:33.799 and he made it again the province of Shaoshi. I won't give you the 378 00:29:33.839 --> 00:29:37.640 spelling for that, but let's just say the idea was, it's not Vietnamese, 379 00:29:37.680 --> 00:29:42.240 it's not Diviet Vietnam, whatever you want. It's Chinese now. And 380 00:29:42.319 --> 00:29:45.680 so he would go in. And what's interesting, I think there's two things. 381 00:29:45.720 --> 00:29:48.000 There's a lot going on here, but just to answer your question, 382 00:29:48.519 --> 00:29:52.240 one, he went in because he saw it as a platform for getting into 383 00:29:52.279 --> 00:29:56.480 the Indian Ocean trade, just like the Mongols tried to do before him. 384 00:29:56.039 --> 00:29:59.559 So he wants to control. It's quite interesting. You can see that the 385 00:29:59.640 --> 00:30:00.640 Chinese, and you know, you can see a little bit of it's going 386 00:30:00.680 --> 00:30:04.000 on today. As well. They want this coast, and they want to 387 00:30:04.000 --> 00:30:08.400 control the coast in order to project the overland Silk Road, if you like. 388 00:30:08.480 --> 00:30:15.000 But also, and perhaps more importantly, the over the seaborn Silk Road 389 00:30:15.279 --> 00:30:19.759 across the Indian Ocean. That's one thing why he wanted Vietnam. The second 390 00:30:19.759 --> 00:30:26.799 thing, and this is important, is that unlike in southwestern China, unlike 391 00:30:26.839 --> 00:30:33.119 his father, he said no to indirect rule. He said no to relying 392 00:30:33.200 --> 00:30:36.519 on kings and families and chieftains. You know what I mean. And we 393 00:30:36.680 --> 00:30:38.960 kind of you guys. You know, I run the show, but we'll 394 00:30:40.039 --> 00:30:41.880 let you keep your little kingdoms. And I don't say that in the majority 395 00:30:41.880 --> 00:30:45.200 of the way. You keep your little kingdoms here and Yunn, you know, 396 00:30:45.279 --> 00:30:48.559 in the south. But you can do what you were doing before. 397 00:30:48.640 --> 00:30:56.480 In Vietnam he does something different assimilation direct rule, and this creates if you 398 00:30:56.559 --> 00:31:00.160 go too hard with direct rule as a colonizer, it can get you in 399 00:31:00.200 --> 00:31:03.359 trouble. And I'm sure you and I can find some examples across the whole 400 00:31:03.359 --> 00:31:06.799 world where that happens. But when you hit people hard saying you are no 401 00:31:06.880 --> 00:31:10.599 longer Vietnamese, you must learn Chinese. When you burn their books, and 402 00:31:10.640 --> 00:31:15.079 that's what the Ming would do. This is all proven. You create resistance, 403 00:31:15.160 --> 00:31:18.799 you create identity as well. Call it whatever you want, but the 404 00:31:18.960 --> 00:31:23.599 Ming contributed to kind of a reinforcement of a Vietnamese identity, you know, 405 00:31:23.799 --> 00:31:29.720 the hostile to the Chinese. There were Vietnamese at the beginning who were saying, 406 00:31:29.720 --> 00:31:33.440 you know what, we can work with you, we cooperate with you. 407 00:31:33.359 --> 00:31:40.039 But when the Chinese really adopted very very harsh measures against the Vietnamese, 408 00:31:40.079 --> 00:31:42.880 it created resistance. I won't go into the details, but there's a man 409 00:31:42.920 --> 00:31:47.200 who would rise up. His name is Leili. He would be the founder 410 00:31:47.240 --> 00:31:53.440 of the Lay dynasty and he would drive the Chinese out in the final in 411 00:31:53.559 --> 00:31:57.440 game would be in fourteen twenty seven and fourteen twenty eight. The invasion would 412 00:31:57.440 --> 00:32:00.799 happen, excuse me, in fourteen o six and fourteen oh seven, twenty 413 00:32:00.839 --> 00:32:04.599 years. It's a twenty year war if you don't mind, Adam. There's 414 00:32:04.640 --> 00:32:07.200 some new research and this might interest your your listeners. You know, you're 415 00:32:07.240 --> 00:32:12.160 working on the western side of your Asia, Western civilization, which is great. 416 00:32:12.559 --> 00:32:16.519 One thing that some new research has shown is that contrary to what we 417 00:32:16.720 --> 00:32:23.039 thought about the military revolution and gunpowder The idea was, yeah, the Chinese 418 00:32:23.079 --> 00:32:29.160 invented gunpowder, but it was the Europeans who developed it because they were warring 419 00:32:29.200 --> 00:32:30.880 a lot. They had the science, they had the application, etc. 420 00:32:31.079 --> 00:32:35.880 Etc. And that's true, that's true. The thing that we didn't realize 421 00:32:36.279 --> 00:32:38.799 until the last ten or fifteen years, which just some amazing research, is 422 00:32:38.839 --> 00:32:44.319 that actually the Chinese, the Vietnamese, the Japanese, the Koreans, they 423 00:32:44.319 --> 00:32:49.519 also beat up on each other and they had and they also created gunpowder weapons, 424 00:32:49.559 --> 00:32:53.640 cannons, handguns, grenades. I could go on, but what is 425 00:32:53.759 --> 00:32:58.880 really perhaps interesting, I kind of cheated. A third thing about the Sino 426 00:32:58.960 --> 00:33:02.559 Vietnamese War, the China Vietnam War with the Ming, is that it was 427 00:33:02.599 --> 00:33:07.160 a gunpowder war. It was a gunpowder war, and towards the end of 428 00:33:07.200 --> 00:33:12.720 the war it's a little bit like Ho Chi Ming getting artillery and using it 429 00:33:12.720 --> 00:33:15.359 against the French at DNB and Fuu in nineteen fifty four. This man named 430 00:33:15.440 --> 00:33:22.200 Leiloui would get his hands on Chinese modern gunpowder and he would turn it on 431 00:33:22.279 --> 00:33:27.480 the colonizers and he would defeat them, not in a guerrilla battle, but 432 00:33:27.640 --> 00:33:30.720 in a siege battle, similar to what was going on in Western Europe in 433 00:33:30.759 --> 00:33:36.839 the fifteen sixteenth century, and that would happen in fourteen fourteen twenty seven. 434 00:33:37.000 --> 00:33:39.079 I believe it would be lasted for five or six months something like that. 435 00:33:39.480 --> 00:33:43.279 Anyways, I thought that might be of interest for your listeners, is that 436 00:33:43.359 --> 00:33:46.119 what's going on the western side of Eurasia and Europe. There's some similar things 437 00:33:46.160 --> 00:33:51.119 going on, and you see it in the Ming Diviet War of the early 438 00:33:51.160 --> 00:33:54.680 fifteenth century. Well, I'm always interested in it. I know that this 439 00:33:54.720 --> 00:34:02.000 is not necessarily talking about Chinese history today, but I'm always interested in looking 440 00:34:02.039 --> 00:34:07.880 at sort of the pace of civilizations throughout history and the idea of they used 441 00:34:07.920 --> 00:34:10.760 to be called, I think the Treasure Fleets, but those the eight fleets 442 00:34:10.760 --> 00:34:15.960 that were sent around to the Indian Ocean, and you know that is I 443 00:34:15.960 --> 00:34:22.400 mean, that's not too far from when Europe is going through the Black Death 444 00:34:22.519 --> 00:34:27.119 essentially in thirteen forty eight thirteen forty nine. So this is this very much 445 00:34:27.119 --> 00:34:30.440 still medieval Europe. You know, they're going to be fighting one hundred years 446 00:34:30.519 --> 00:34:36.519 war still for a long time with log bows and swords and picks, and 447 00:34:36.559 --> 00:34:42.840 you're talking about sign out Vietnamese War where gunpowder is being used effectively at this 448 00:34:43.000 --> 00:34:46.440 point. So the French did use the French did use in the Battle of 449 00:34:46.519 --> 00:34:52.079 Castillon, they did use gunpowder weapons to put an end to the war with 450 00:34:52.159 --> 00:34:55.840 the English. What was it, fourteen fifty three, if I'm not wrong, 451 00:34:57.920 --> 00:35:00.480 And they did that thanks to gunpowder weapons as well. So what's interesting, 452 00:35:00.559 --> 00:35:04.639 I agree totally with what you just said. But what's interesting too is 453 00:35:04.679 --> 00:35:10.440 the parallel uses of gunpowder technology in warfare and state consolidation and in state craft 454 00:35:10.480 --> 00:35:14.800 as well. So I agree that you know, it's kind of dark still 455 00:35:14.800 --> 00:35:19.079 in the Middle Ages, but it's quite clear that things are moving across all 456 00:35:19.119 --> 00:35:22.360 of Eurasia from the thirteenth, fourteen, fifteen, sixteen, seventeenth centuries, 457 00:35:22.639 --> 00:35:29.079 you know, and the fact that the Ming sent their expeditions west to the 458 00:35:29.119 --> 00:35:34.199 west and then the Iberians sent them towards the east. It's quite clear that 459 00:35:34.440 --> 00:35:37.480 everybody you know, there was they knew what was going on. Even in 460 00:35:37.519 --> 00:35:39.760 the Middle Ages in Europe, they had good information. They knew. You 461 00:35:39.760 --> 00:35:44.800 know, Marco Polo, he went to Vietnam. You know, he went 462 00:35:44.840 --> 00:35:46.920 to China, of course, but he went to Vietnam, Ibn Batuta, 463 00:35:47.440 --> 00:35:51.480 he we know, he went to China, but he also went to Vietnam. 464 00:35:51.480 --> 00:35:55.159 I'm just saying the world was a very interconnected place, and it's interesting 465 00:35:55.199 --> 00:35:59.519 to see kind of the similar things happening on both ends, at least at 466 00:35:59.519 --> 00:36:02.679 that time fifteen sixteen seventeenth, and after that things do change in the West, 467 00:36:02.719 --> 00:36:07.039 There's no doubt about it. Yeah, I think that the you're you're 468 00:36:07.039 --> 00:36:09.159 exactly right, and fourteen fifty three is actually one of the to me, 469 00:36:09.199 --> 00:36:15.679 it's actually one of those quintessential dates in the world history because while you have 470 00:36:15.760 --> 00:36:20.920 the French, you're correct, finally using small scale canons to finish off the 471 00:36:20.920 --> 00:36:23.760 bedeubling longbows of the English, at the same time, you have the Ottoman 472 00:36:23.800 --> 00:36:29.880 Turks using cannons that same year to put an end once and for all to 473 00:36:29.920 --> 00:36:34.880 the Byzantine Constantinople, to the to the Roman Empire, to the Roman Empire, 474 00:36:35.199 --> 00:36:37.000 the eastern half of the Roman Empire. You know, So that one 475 00:36:37.079 --> 00:36:39.199 half fell as we know, you don't need me to tell you that, 476 00:36:39.519 --> 00:36:43.519 But that other half was there. But as you say, the Ottomans, 477 00:36:43.639 --> 00:36:45.039 you know, I don't know if it's meant the second or not, But 478 00:36:45.079 --> 00:36:49.960 anyways, he had some pretty big cannons that he was using that were, 479 00:36:50.280 --> 00:36:52.760 you know, similar to what the Chinese the ming we're putting together as well. 480 00:36:53.159 --> 00:36:58.719 Yeah, that's pretty interesting, but so kind of thinking about globalizing forces 481 00:36:58.719 --> 00:37:00.559 for a second. You did write in the book as interested in this, 482 00:37:00.639 --> 00:37:07.079 wrote in short, religions like Empire are globalizing forces because you know, as 483 00:37:07.239 --> 00:37:10.000 weapons are moving around, religions and ideas are moving around. During this time 484 00:37:10.039 --> 00:37:15.039 period, especially Christian missionaries are starting to get their feet under them, and 485 00:37:15.079 --> 00:37:21.599 so I'm curious as to what role Christianity and Christian missionaries starting in about the 486 00:37:21.639 --> 00:37:27.920 fifteenth century plays in Vietnam. Yeah, well, I mean, I'm gonna 487 00:37:28.679 --> 00:37:31.920 it's true that that question is one that I'm very much interested in. And 488 00:37:31.960 --> 00:37:36.840 it gets back to what I said a little bit earlier to your question about 489 00:37:37.760 --> 00:37:40.920 Vietnam for the better and the worst being linked to the rest of the world, 490 00:37:42.360 --> 00:37:45.519 and you can see it in religious terms. You can see it in 491 00:37:45.559 --> 00:37:52.039 religious terms. It was linked by maritime roots from the early the Common era 492 00:37:52.719 --> 00:37:55.400 to the Indian Ocean. So what does that mean religiously And I'm going to 493 00:37:55.440 --> 00:38:00.920 get the Catholicism. Sorry I'm setting up for another long answer here, but 494 00:38:00.519 --> 00:38:08.320 you have the exchanges over the seaborne exchanges between Vietnam and the Indian Ocean, 495 00:38:08.400 --> 00:38:14.920 which brought what Hinduism. We think of Vietnam. Oh, it's like China. 496 00:38:15.039 --> 00:38:21.519 Well not quite, because it's this kind of this platform, this crossroads, 497 00:38:21.559 --> 00:38:24.880 you know. So that central part where the Chim people were until the 498 00:38:24.920 --> 00:38:30.280 fifteenth sixteenth century, that's where Hinduism came into Vietnam. So if you were 499 00:38:30.360 --> 00:38:32.639 your listeners, go to Vietnam, go to a place like Way, Go 500 00:38:32.760 --> 00:38:36.639 outside of Way. Yes, it was the imperial capital. We'll maybe get 501 00:38:36.639 --> 00:38:38.280 to that, you know, in a little bit. It was for a 502 00:38:38.360 --> 00:38:43.000 time the Vietnamese imperial capital, but it was a Chim capital before that. 503 00:38:43.599 --> 00:38:47.480 And you have Vish News and you have Shiva's that sort of thing. You 504 00:38:47.599 --> 00:38:52.519 have Buddhism, which came into southern and central Vietnam. Obviously went into Cambodia 505 00:38:52.519 --> 00:38:58.239 as well, brought in by traders. They were bringing the missionaries. So 506 00:38:58.280 --> 00:39:02.920 that's another type of religion that was linked to Vietnam. Third example, this 507 00:39:04.000 --> 00:39:08.519 might surprise you, but it's really true. Islam. Why because the Persians, 508 00:39:08.519 --> 00:39:13.320 but the Arabs in particular from the ninth tenth and they really got rolling 509 00:39:13.400 --> 00:39:15.760 during the Song dynasty. Tenth, eleventh, twelfth century, when the Song 510 00:39:15.880 --> 00:39:22.440 was a major economic powerhouse. They were doing all the transit trade between the 511 00:39:22.440 --> 00:39:28.800 Middle East and China, and they would stop over in Central Vietnam and they 512 00:39:28.840 --> 00:39:31.239 brought Islam with them. So if you go again to Chapa, Central Vietnam 513 00:39:31.280 --> 00:39:36.840 today, you will see vestiges of Islam. You will know you have mosques, 514 00:39:37.079 --> 00:39:40.159 and even in Vietnam you have mosque even in southern China. Chinese don't 515 00:39:40.159 --> 00:39:44.880 always like to talk about that, but it's true. So if we look 516 00:39:44.920 --> 00:39:47.360 at Vietnam then from the north. Sorry for the long answer, but Vietnam 517 00:39:47.440 --> 00:39:52.519 was part of this Chinese empire for one thousand years. We know that a 518 00:39:52.519 --> 00:39:58.000 certain type of Buddhism came via the overland Silk Road, went into China, 519 00:39:58.320 --> 00:40:00.480 went to Japan, went to Korea, and it went to northern Vietnam in 520 00:40:00.519 --> 00:40:07.360 particular. So you have two strands of Buddhism, the big vehicle and the 521 00:40:07.400 --> 00:40:09.599 small vehicle. I won't go into the details, but one came by the 522 00:40:09.599 --> 00:40:15.840 seaborn roots and one came by the overland roots through the imperial connection with China. 523 00:40:15.320 --> 00:40:20.320 So that's that's another example my point now to your question. Sorry, 524 00:40:20.440 --> 00:40:25.880 is that Christianity, Catholicism. It came like Islam, it came like Buddhism, 525 00:40:27.039 --> 00:40:30.960 it came like Hinduism to Vietnam, and it was by the seaborn roots. 526 00:40:30.599 --> 00:40:36.760 So once the Ming pulled back their ships, income the Iberians, the 527 00:40:36.800 --> 00:40:38.960 Spanish, you know, through the Philippines, the Portuguese, you know, 528 00:40:39.000 --> 00:40:45.079 they're they're coming across from from Southern Africa, India, Malacca, and then 529 00:40:45.280 --> 00:40:47.519 they'll get to Japan, as you know, in Macau, which they'll they'll 530 00:40:47.559 --> 00:40:53.280 they'll create a colony. And so the the Iberians in particular were very Catholic. 531 00:40:53.360 --> 00:40:57.960 They're going to bring Catholicism with them. So you have Jesuits who come 532 00:40:58.000 --> 00:41:00.639 in particular to Vietnam. I won't go into the details. They'll be in 533 00:41:00.719 --> 00:41:05.239 China as well. I think most of your listeners will probably know that. 534 00:41:05.480 --> 00:41:09.639 But I guess my answer to your question is Religions move, but they take 535 00:41:09.760 --> 00:41:15.760 root because people on the ground too are interested in them. So the Vietnamese, 536 00:41:15.800 --> 00:41:19.159 like the Chinese, like other people as well in Europe, they find 537 00:41:19.239 --> 00:41:22.239 something that they want, that they need, that they believe in, that 538 00:41:22.280 --> 00:41:25.079 helps them get through the day, that helps them get through their work. 539 00:41:25.159 --> 00:41:29.960 You know all these things that we know about religions, the Vietnamese were no 540 00:41:30.000 --> 00:41:36.199 different than anyone else. So yes, Catholicism came. It came early sixteenth 541 00:41:36.239 --> 00:41:39.800 century, seventeenth century in particular. You know, you will have Portuguese French 542 00:41:40.400 --> 00:41:45.119 Catholics. They will go to the northern part of Vietnam in particular. I 543 00:41:45.159 --> 00:41:51.239 won't go into the details, but they will find a fertile ground for preaching, 544 00:41:51.519 --> 00:41:55.239 just like other missionaries before them, Muslims, Buddhists, Hinduists, if 545 00:41:55.280 --> 00:42:02.920 you like, had found converts as well. And it's just again kind of 546 00:42:02.920 --> 00:42:10.119 comes back to the original point that we started with of why Vietnam is geographically 547 00:42:10.159 --> 00:42:19.000 in such an important place that it becomes this just almost natural melting pot for 548 00:42:19.079 --> 00:42:25.039 different ideas and cultures because everybody has to move through it or around it if 549 00:42:25.039 --> 00:42:30.440 you want to take advantage of these lucrative trade routes, which of course everyone 550 00:42:30.559 --> 00:42:36.199 does, and so you have to stop there. And so it's interesting how 551 00:42:36.280 --> 00:42:40.960 that is very different from some of the more isolated regions of the world. 552 00:42:42.159 --> 00:42:44.559 You know, you might think of a place like Tibet, or maybe a 553 00:42:44.639 --> 00:42:46.760 place like, oh, I don't know, Switzerland or something like that. 554 00:42:47.159 --> 00:42:52.119 That's hard to get to. But kind of moving on, I wanted to 555 00:42:52.119 --> 00:42:55.800 talk a little bit about I was reading the section about the seventeenth century in 556 00:42:55.960 --> 00:43:00.800 Vietnam where you're talking about how there's effectively like almost three major military families, 557 00:43:00.800 --> 00:43:04.639 a series of military families were kind of in charge. One of them, 558 00:43:04.719 --> 00:43:12.440 the new En kind of are instrumental in starting to push northern Vietnamese colonization into 559 00:43:12.480 --> 00:43:16.519 the south into around what is eventually going to become psychon and so I'm interested 560 00:43:16.559 --> 00:43:22.000 in that process where it starts to look like maybe this is going to look 561 00:43:22.039 --> 00:43:27.920 like something around unification, but not so much. So I think explain that 562 00:43:27.960 --> 00:43:30.239 a little bit. I thought it was really interesting. Well, well thanks, 563 00:43:30.320 --> 00:43:35.079 it's it's it's an important question and there's a lot of work that's still 564 00:43:35.119 --> 00:43:38.079 being done on it. It's incredibly detailed, so I don't want to go 565 00:43:38.159 --> 00:43:42.119 into too many details. I'm going to simplify just a bit in order to 566 00:43:42.159 --> 00:43:45.920 hit on the important point that you made. And by the fact that there 567 00:43:45.960 --> 00:43:52.400 were three military houses who will contest for power, let me just back up 568 00:43:52.440 --> 00:43:58.199 real quick, is that this this man whose name was Les Luay, he 569 00:43:58.320 --> 00:44:04.639 defeats the ming. He created the Lay dynasty in fourteen twenty eight. Let's 570 00:44:04.679 --> 00:44:08.280 just say for a century the Lay dynasty. It works well. He centralizes 571 00:44:08.360 --> 00:44:13.920 the state, he borrows a lot from the colonizer, from the Chinese, 572 00:44:14.119 --> 00:44:17.760 obviously gunpowder weapons, he'll use those against the chim and to increase the size 573 00:44:19.679 --> 00:44:24.000 of Vietnam, which starts to occupy much of central Vietnam. Now he will 574 00:44:24.000 --> 00:44:30.760 adopt Confucianism to build a strong monarchical state. Now, as is so often 575 00:44:30.800 --> 00:44:34.400 the case, whether it be in Europe, Asia, wherever it might be 576 00:44:34.440 --> 00:44:38.719 in the world, there's always problems of succession. There's always problems of backstabbing, 577 00:44:40.000 --> 00:44:45.119 you know, palace intrigue and this sort of thing. It happens in 578 00:44:45.199 --> 00:44:50.320 Vietnam like it happens everywhere. So what happens is that we get to the 579 00:44:50.360 --> 00:44:55.719 beginning of the sixteenth century, a century after having defeated the Chinese, and 580 00:44:55.960 --> 00:45:04.280 the Lay dynasty kind of fades away. They can't control competing factions, military 581 00:45:04.320 --> 00:45:08.639 groups. And there's three houses that kind of affirm their power at that time. 582 00:45:09.559 --> 00:45:15.079 One is called the Mac Mac, the second is called the Qing Trii 583 00:45:15.239 --> 00:45:19.920 n H, and the third, who will be the most important eventually, 584 00:45:20.079 --> 00:45:27.000 is the Win n g U y E n And basically the two most important 585 00:45:27.760 --> 00:45:34.480 families are the king and the Win and they leave the Lay dynasty. The 586 00:45:34.519 --> 00:45:38.239 emperor he remains there, but he becomes a figurehead at him a little bit 587 00:45:38.320 --> 00:45:43.280 like the emperor in Japan. Remember when Japan, if you've studied Japanese history, 588 00:45:43.880 --> 00:45:46.880 you have kind of a warring period and then you have a military government 589 00:45:46.920 --> 00:45:52.039 that finally comes to power, and it's the military government. They keep the 590 00:45:52.079 --> 00:45:57.960 emperor there because he legitimates their power, but he's isolated. And the same 591 00:45:58.000 --> 00:46:01.239 thing happens in Vietnam. There's the emperor. The Lay dynasty obviously hits his 592 00:46:01.360 --> 00:46:05.320 kids and grandkids and all of that, so they leave him in Hanoi. 593 00:46:05.840 --> 00:46:10.000 But the real problems begin between the Qing Tri n H and the Win again 594 00:46:10.159 --> 00:46:16.880 n g U ye and they want to run the show. They want to 595 00:46:16.920 --> 00:46:22.880 run the show, and this really gets started in the sixteenth century. They 596 00:46:22.880 --> 00:46:28.800 don't really start fighting during the sixteenth century. What happened is that the Win 597 00:46:28.960 --> 00:46:31.639 family, it's a warlord family. They say, you know what, let's 598 00:46:31.719 --> 00:46:38.079 not fight, will head south. So they head south for Hui and they're 599 00:46:38.079 --> 00:46:43.880 going to set up shop in the What will become the imperial capital, their 600 00:46:43.920 --> 00:46:49.440 imperial capital eventually a century later. But the two families, the Ching and 601 00:46:49.480 --> 00:46:52.960 the Win, they disagree. They solve the problem at the beginning by the 602 00:46:52.079 --> 00:46:58.360 Win heading south in the sixteenth in the middle of the sixteenth century. The 603 00:46:58.480 --> 00:47:07.440 thing is is that they still consider this to be one state. The problem 604 00:47:07.559 --> 00:47:13.159 is that the king they want to run the show from Hanoi because they see 605 00:47:13.159 --> 00:47:17.960 themselves as kind of the real leaders with the lay behind them. And what 606 00:47:19.000 --> 00:47:22.400 they will do is try to you know, it's like the American Revolution. 607 00:47:23.119 --> 00:47:29.719 Taxes. They will impose heavy taxes on the Wind dynasty, not the Wind 608 00:47:29.800 --> 00:47:32.760 dynasty, sorry, but the Wind family in the South. And we get 609 00:47:32.800 --> 00:47:37.599 to the early seventeenth century and the Wind say, you know what, We've 610 00:47:37.639 --> 00:47:42.199 had enough of this. We're going to go on our own. And that's 611 00:47:42.440 --> 00:47:45.239 very simplified, but I really do believe what I've said is very true. 612 00:47:45.800 --> 00:47:52.880 You have this southern Win family that moves southward a little bit like you know, 613 00:47:52.039 --> 00:47:58.960 after the Americans obtained their independence from the British, they started moving westward. 614 00:47:59.400 --> 00:48:05.239 And as you move westward, other possibilities open up. You see things 615 00:48:05.320 --> 00:48:07.400 differently in the north as you move to the west, you see things differently 616 00:48:07.480 --> 00:48:09.519 in the south. I'm not going to get into slavery and all of that, 617 00:48:09.559 --> 00:48:15.000 but I'm just saying that you have a movement of part of the Vietnamese 618 00:48:15.039 --> 00:48:17.760 towards the south, and we get to the seventeenth century and then when they 619 00:48:17.760 --> 00:48:22.920 say, you know what, that's enough, we're going our own civil war 620 00:48:22.960 --> 00:48:27.639 breaks out. Adam, it does break out in the sixteen twenties. There's 621 00:48:27.679 --> 00:48:31.000 going to be fighting that goes on for about sixty years. Finally there's a 622 00:48:31.039 --> 00:48:38.679 stalemate in sixteen seventy two, and excuse me, and then about fifty years 623 00:48:38.719 --> 00:48:46.480 later or so, the Wind in the South declare their own dynasty and they 624 00:48:46.559 --> 00:48:52.960 set up their imperial capital in Way. So you have in the northern delta 625 00:48:52.000 --> 00:48:57.920 of the Red River you have the Qing with the Lay as a figurehead, 626 00:48:58.360 --> 00:49:01.760 and in the south now you have this kind of colonial state led by the 627 00:49:01.920 --> 00:49:07.639 Win dynasty now and a king, and they all kind of play the game, 628 00:49:07.760 --> 00:49:12.119 oh, we're all still one happy family. But it was a lie, 629 00:49:12.239 --> 00:49:15.280 and everybody knew it was a lie. There was two states from that 630 00:49:15.400 --> 00:49:22.719 time. So that is I think the best way to explain the fact that 631 00:49:22.800 --> 00:49:30.559 before the French came, there was a history of two Vietnams. So what 632 00:49:30.599 --> 00:49:34.639 we see during the Vietnam War. You opened up our podcast today saying most 633 00:49:34.679 --> 00:49:38.039 Americans know Vietnam as it was divided into two halves. Well, actually a 634 00:49:38.039 --> 00:49:43.679 lot of Vietnamese in the past they also knew Vietnam as being divided into two 635 00:49:43.719 --> 00:49:50.239 halves as well. Well. I think that that's so important for understanding the 636 00:49:50.239 --> 00:49:55.400 context and the background to that conflict and to so many other aspects of culture 637 00:49:55.400 --> 00:50:00.000 and history, which again is a good reason why it's smart not just label 638 00:50:00.039 --> 00:50:05.239 something pre colonial and move past it as though it's not going to have relevancy 639 00:50:05.719 --> 00:50:07.679 later on. Well, I think we have time for one more question, 640 00:50:07.760 --> 00:50:10.920 so I want to jump forward a little bit because I do want to ask 641 00:50:12.000 --> 00:50:19.320 about, you know, does Vietnam become unified before the French get there? 642 00:50:19.360 --> 00:50:23.599 Specifically in eighteen oh two, does Vietnam and I'm not going to get this 643 00:50:23.719 --> 00:50:30.800 name correctly, but under Guylong does it become unified or is that just a 644 00:50:30.880 --> 00:50:35.039 mirage? It? Is it a paper regime that makes it look like it's 645 00:50:35.039 --> 00:50:38.679 a unified country but it's not really. I think that's we've kind of talked 646 00:50:38.679 --> 00:50:43.480 about this idea of different parts of Vietnam. So I think to kind of 647 00:50:43.719 --> 00:50:46.039 bring it to a close today, let's talk about does it get to the 648 00:50:46.079 --> 00:50:52.960 point where it is politically unified before a colonial power gets there. The answer 649 00:50:52.960 --> 00:50:58.079 to that question is yes, but not without great difficulty. Of course, 650 00:50:58.079 --> 00:51:00.480 you can make an argument for the United States as well. At the end 651 00:51:00.480 --> 00:51:05.880 of the nineteenth century it almost came unraveled on the Americans, and I'm sure 652 00:51:05.920 --> 00:51:09.199 you and I can find other examples where civil war is a very important thing 653 00:51:09.239 --> 00:51:15.920 to take into consideration. So Vietnam is no exception to that rule in world 654 00:51:15.000 --> 00:51:22.079 history that it's important to know how difficult it is to create operational unified nation 655 00:51:22.239 --> 00:51:27.639 states or whatever type of state you want to talk about. But again, 656 00:51:28.519 --> 00:51:32.880 it did become unified in eighteen o two when the leader of the Gwynn dynasty, 657 00:51:34.000 --> 00:51:38.239 Zalom, he won a thirty year civil war. I won't go into 658 00:51:38.320 --> 00:51:42.599 the details, but it just goes to show that you have that first civil 659 00:51:42.639 --> 00:51:45.320 war I talked about in the seventeenth century, and you'll have another one at 660 00:51:45.320 --> 00:51:50.840 the end of the eighteenth century. It will last for thirty years, and 661 00:51:51.519 --> 00:51:55.400 it's a fight kind of between Southerners, Centrallers and Northerners. I'm going to 662 00:51:55.400 --> 00:52:01.679 simplify like that. But the leader of the Wynn family about which I spoke 663 00:52:01.719 --> 00:52:09.360 a moment Ago Zalom Gia l O Nng, he was indeed able to unify 664 00:52:09.480 --> 00:52:15.159 the north, the center in the south in the s form we recognize to 665 00:52:15.320 --> 00:52:19.880 this day on the map that represents Vietnam with Hanoi in the north way, 666 00:52:20.039 --> 00:52:23.239 let's say, in the center, and Saigon or Hochi Min City in the 667 00:52:23.360 --> 00:52:30.960 south. It was, however, a fragile affair, it really was. 668 00:52:31.519 --> 00:52:37.320 He would go lightly until his death. I believe he died around eighteen twenty 669 00:52:37.360 --> 00:52:40.119 eighteen twenty one, eighteen twenty two. Sorry I can't quite remember. But 670 00:52:40.199 --> 00:52:47.320 anyways, during that period he would go lightly because he didn't want to annoy 671 00:52:47.400 --> 00:52:52.039 anybody. He wanted to kind of pay off people who had collaborated with him 672 00:52:52.320 --> 00:52:57.079 during the Civil War. They could kind of do what they wanted. They 673 00:52:57.159 --> 00:53:00.639 could have their own kind of thiefs or sets, if you like, the 674 00:53:00.719 --> 00:53:05.519 Chinese could do what they wanted, you could have kind of He didn't impose 675 00:53:05.559 --> 00:53:08.280 a kind of a direct assimilationist type of rule like the Ming. Did you 676 00:53:08.320 --> 00:53:13.079 know what I mean. So he was more indirect rule. He had good 677 00:53:13.119 --> 00:53:17.559 relations with the ethnic minorities. He didn't try to gobble up, you know, 678 00:53:17.599 --> 00:53:22.360 their lands or stuff like that. He was he went lightly with the 679 00:53:22.400 --> 00:53:24.840 northerners who kind of lost, and he's like, okay, it's okay, 680 00:53:25.039 --> 00:53:30.360 well, you know, we can work this out. That would, however, 681 00:53:30.599 --> 00:53:35.760 change when his son came to power in the early eighteen twenties. His 682 00:53:35.880 --> 00:53:38.519 name was Ming mag and he adopted a kind of heavy duty, more of 683 00:53:38.519 --> 00:53:47.320 an assimilationist direct rule approach, which created enemies and which kind of he did. 684 00:53:49.760 --> 00:53:54.800 He was revolutionary in the sense that he was able to centralize Vietnam politically 685 00:53:55.119 --> 00:54:00.079 and economically. He did create a lot of enemies, and in particular he 686 00:54:00.199 --> 00:54:05.039 created a lot of enemies among the Catholics who had supported the Catholics, including 687 00:54:05.079 --> 00:54:12.760 the French missionaries, had supported the win during the Civil War. But Zaalum's 688 00:54:12.760 --> 00:54:15.960 Sun would go after the Catholics, and of course that would allow the French 689 00:54:15.320 --> 00:54:21.719 to find a way to get in in the well, mainly in the eighteen 690 00:54:21.760 --> 00:54:25.440 fifties, when the French would attack in eighteen fifty eight and begin the colonization 691 00:54:25.599 --> 00:54:29.800 process, and they would claim to be doing that to protect French Catholics, 692 00:54:29.800 --> 00:54:32.079 which of course, to some extent they were, but it was a pretext. 693 00:54:32.239 --> 00:54:37.320 It was a pretext for colonization. So again I come back to the 694 00:54:37.320 --> 00:54:40.000 way I answered your question. It's hard to answer real quick, but yes, 695 00:54:40.039 --> 00:54:45.760 he did unify Vietnam. His son helped advance that, but not without 696 00:54:45.000 --> 00:54:49.440 difficulties which would come back to haunt them. And the example I give is 697 00:54:49.480 --> 00:54:52.119 that the Catholics would look to the French to help them against this kind of 698 00:54:52.119 --> 00:54:58.199 heavy handed policy that was used by Mgman Well, and I think that that's 699 00:54:58.239 --> 00:55:02.480 a perfect teaser for where to leave it, because that gets us right up 700 00:55:02.519 --> 00:55:07.679 to the point where many audiences are now kind of starting to get familiar with 701 00:55:07.760 --> 00:55:14.880 the story. And now there is a tremendous amount that we did not discuss 702 00:55:14.920 --> 00:55:19.000 in the book, even prior to the time period that we have to have 703 00:55:19.039 --> 00:55:22.920 a full and complete discussion of this book would take several days of continuous talking, 704 00:55:22.199 --> 00:55:27.639 and that's why it's so good. But we don't have time for that, 705 00:55:27.719 --> 00:55:31.159 and I don't think I have enough storage space for that either. So 706 00:55:31.440 --> 00:55:36.159 but I wanted to thank you so much for coming out. The book's available 707 00:55:36.239 --> 00:55:39.400 now, it's great. It's for anyone especially, I would say, especially 708 00:55:39.559 --> 00:55:45.760 if you are going to be traveling to Vietnam, which is a beautiful country 709 00:55:45.800 --> 00:55:50.480 to visit. Now, I would highly recommend reading it. It will give 710 00:55:50.519 --> 00:55:55.440 you such a deeper cultural appreciation of the land that you're going into, other 711 00:55:55.519 --> 00:56:00.719 than just a land that was a chartelehouse in the nineteen six these in nineteen 712 00:56:00.760 --> 00:56:05.800 seventies for a period, it's a lot more than that, and I think 713 00:56:05.840 --> 00:56:09.239 that this does a great way of explaining that in some some real detail and 714 00:56:09.280 --> 00:56:14.880 the details what makes it good. Let's be honest. But thanks so much 715 00:56:14.920 --> 00:56:19.679 for coming on. It was a fantastic conversation. Thank you, Adam, 716 00:56:20.440 --> 00:56:22.159 Thanks very much. I really appreciate it.