WEBVTT

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In our first season of Still,
we explored a period of time in Fort

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Worth, Texas between nineteen eighty three
and nineteen eighty six, when more than

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twenty women vanished and were later found
murdered. Some were shot, some were

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strangled, some were bludgeoned to death. Most had been sexually assaulted, and

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sadly, few of their cases have
ever been solved. Our investigation of this

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time period led us to focus on
seven specific cold cases, the rapes and

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murders of Mary Till, Sandra Bush, Katherine Davis, Cindy Heller, Angela

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Ewart, Sarah Kashka, and Terry
McAdams. Through our research of known killers

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at the time, we homed in
on a likely culprit. Curtis Don Brown,

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was already serving a life sentence.
He had raped and murdered three women.

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He died in a Texas prison in
early twenty twenty one before we could

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interview him. Now, we want
to step back and discuss what listeners have

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shared with us about their theories and
memories of that time of terror. In

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this bonus episode, we'll also be
sharing unreleased tidbits of information, follow up

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interviews, and a Q and a
discussion with a special guest from the pages

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of the reporter's notebook. This is
Still. I'm your host Gary Anderson.

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Hello everyone, and welcome to our
bonus episode of Still season one. At

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the end of the season. Earlier
this year, we asked listeners to share

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with us their thoughts about our story. Were there other killers out there we

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should have considered, is there any
evidence we missed? What cases should we

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tackle next? And did you guys
deliver? We want to begin with a

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discussion of potential suspects suggested by our
listeners. While a number of names were

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brought to our attention, four in
particular piqued our interest. The first comes

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courtesy of a special guest, fellow
journalist and podcaster, Claire Santamal. Claire

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met with us recently to discuss theories
of our cases. I'm going to play

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some of that conversation for you.
I wanted to start out with tell us

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a little bit about you, tell
us a little bit about your show,

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and just expound on that. Thanks
so much for having me, Gary.

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It's fun to be here in real
life. I don't think we get to

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do that in the podcast world that
much, so it's nice to be sitting

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across the table from here chatting.
I've been in the Dallas area for about

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ten years now, and you know, really enjoy crime reporting. That's where

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I've found my place. I do
it primarily for CBS News. I'm a

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development producer for the show forty eight
Hours, which airs on Saturday nights on

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CBS, and then I also do
some crime I've done some crime stories for

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sixty Minutes and the morning and evening
shows as well, so pretty much all

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crime all the time. But I
found a new love of podcast. And

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you know, at first, I
was just a listener for many years.

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And then whenever I was approached about, you know, did I want to

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host my own podcast? Did I
see myself in that space? You know,

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it was it was a gradual evolution, you know, one of those

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things where I was like, well, I really enjoy this as a consumer,

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you know, but I hadn't seen
myself as someone who would be creating

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that content, um. And it
took me a little while to warm up

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to the idea. But once I
did, you know, I've really enjoyed

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it and see it as as such
a valuable medium. Um. And So

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my first show was called Final Days
on Earth and the first season came out

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in April twenty twenty one, and
it's on the life and death of Damien

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Hurd, who was a college wrestler
who grew up not too far from where

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we are now in the Fort Worth
area in Texas. But he got a

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college scholarship to Western Colorado University in
Gunnison, and that, unfortunately, is

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where his life ended. And so
my story goes to the final days of

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his life and tries to find answers
for um, you know, how how

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he ended up dead at the age
of twenty and and many people have raised,

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you know, questions about about that
investigation and about the ruling in the

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case, which was suicide but has
been heavily disputed by his family. So

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my podcast ended up being thirteen episodes, and we look at that case inside

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and out, backwards and forwards and
every way in between. If you haven't

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listened to Final Days on Earth,
find it and add it to your playlist

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immediately. You won't be disappointed.
We're going to discuss some details of Claire's

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podcast with her, but first we
wanted to dive right into our cases,

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particularly since Claire herself offered up a
potential suspect that we found intriguing. This

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is Karen talking. I wanted to
ask you, Claire. You had mentioned

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a potential suspect for our cases,
William Reese, and so I wanted to

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ask you to just tell us what
you know about him and kind of why

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you think that he would be a
viable suspect or our cases. Yeah.

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Absolutely, So, as I was
listening to your episodes and you're going through

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the emo of the killer, and
you know, like you say in your

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podcast, it could be one killer, it could be multiple killers, but

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there's a lot of similarities in you
know, the way the crimes are committed

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and who the victims are. And
so it was interesting to me because the

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name that popped into my head was
William Reese. And he was a truck

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driver and also works as like a
ranch hand, worked a lot with horses,

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and his crimes. His first known
crime was in nineteen eighty six,

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and he was a truck driver and
so he would go from the Oklahoma City

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area, Oklahoma area, down into
Texas all the way from you know,

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North Texas, going through Houston,
going down to Galveston and back up to

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Oklahoma. So he really was on
the road a lot and hit a lot

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of different cities and has a lot
of victims in different cities across Oklahoma and

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Texas. And his seems to be
his mo was to find women in distress

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on the roadway and offer to help. Many times the tire would have been

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changed. Other times women. You
know, there's a case where a woman's

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car was flooded out in the in
the water, you know, a flash

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flood type situation. And he drove
up in his eighteen wheeler like a night

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in shining armor and said, oh, get in the cab, you know

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my car, I'll take you to
a pay phone. And so I was

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struck by the similarities of some of
the women in the four Worth cases where

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they had car trouble sometimes explained sometime
to the unexplained, and William Reese,

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so he was. His first known
case was nineteen eighty six a young woman,

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a freshman at the University of Oklahoma
who has car trouble and she survives.

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And he is actually put on trial
in nineteen eighty seven then and goes

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to jail. It was a twenty
five year sentence, but he only served

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ten years in the kidnapping case,
and immediately when he gets out in nineteen

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ninety seven, he starts committing the
same types of crimes, and he also

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is known to have committed murder as
well. And there are cases where he

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would put he would stand outside a
gas station and he would post up there

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and watch for women to come in
alone into the gas station. While they're

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in the gas station, he would
go slash their tire, puncture their tire,

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and then he would follow them into
the night into the day, and

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and you know, take it from
there. And so that seemed to be

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a very similar emo to several of
the cases that you looked at. And

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I just wondered, you know,
if the timing lined up pre nineteen eighty

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seven when he went into prison for
the first time, if you potentially as

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a truck driver, we could find
out, you know, if his routes

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took him to the Fort Worth area. The crimes that initially put William Reese

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behind bars occurred in the spring of
nineteen eighty six, around the same time

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Curtis Don Brown was committing one of
his known crimes, the murder of Jewel

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Woods in Fort Worth. Reese,
then a twenty six year old truck driver,

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picked up a nineteen year old college
student in Norman, Oklahoma, under

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the pretense of helping her after her
car had broken down. Once inside his

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truck, Reese tied her up and
raped her and said his intention was to

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take her to Houston. At some
point along the way, the victim escaped

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and survived the attack. While awaiting
trial for that kidnapping, Reese raped another

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Oklahoma woman whom he followed home from
a bar. Reese was convicted of both

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crimes and was sentenced to twenty five
years and in Oklahoma prison, but he

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only served ten going free in October
nineteen ninety six. By July of nineteen

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ninety seven, he was passing through
North Texas, this time committing murder in

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the city of Denton, just north
of Fort Worth. Denton, if you

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recall, is where Sarah Kashka and
her mother had moved to from Fort Worth.

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I don't want to confuse you,
though Sarah disappeared at the end of

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nineteen eighty four, nearly thirteen years
before Rhese kidnapped a victim from Denton.

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But it's notable because he was definitely
in North Texas as he hunted for and

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found a victim right and one of
his victims actually was in Denton. Correct,

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that's right, Kelly Cox. That
was an unsolved case for many years.

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That was in nineteen ninety seven case. If people aren't familiar with that,

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unbelievably tragic and just a really hard
case because that young woman was actually

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touring the Denton County jail that morning
with her criminology class at the University of

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North Texas. But whenever she got
out of the tour of the jail,

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she realized she had actually locked her
keys in her car, so she wasn't

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able to get in. And this
is I don't believe she had a cell

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phone at this time. This was
nineteen ninety seven, pre cell phone.

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So she tried to go use the
phone at the jail and they they turned

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her away, and so she went
to a gas station to buy a coke

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to get some change to use a
pay phone, and that's where she had

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the unfortunate, unbelievably unfortunate chance encounter
with William Reese. She allegedly spilled a

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coke on him and that led to
her kidnapping and murder. So it's it's

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definitely true that he was in North
Texas and that he was at a gas

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station and found a young woman that
you know was never seen alive again,

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So he seems like a good suspect
in a number of ways. The nineteen

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ninety seven murder of Kelly Cox was
a case that our associate producer, Christine

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Hughes, was personally aware of.
Christine talked to Claire, Karen and I

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through zoom. I actually remember the
Kelly Cox case. I was editor of

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a newspaper in that region at the
time that had happened, so we covered

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it. And she was also a
young mother, She had a child,

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and that was really a tragic thing
for her family. And it took a

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long time for them to solve that
case, so she was not found for

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a while, and also he was
not identified for a while. Is it

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possible that William Reese sabotaged Angela Ewart's
car that night at the seven eleven in

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nineteen eighty four? Was he watching
her from somewhere nearby? Perhaps? Another

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person of interest is an unknown assailant
who attempted to abduct a young woman in

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southwest Fort Worth at around the same
time as Angie's and Sarah's abductions in December

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of nineteen eighty four. The kidnapping
attempt was even in the same Wedgewood neighborhood

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where both Sarah and Angie were last
seen alive. It was also just a

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mile or two from where Katherine Davis
and Cindy Heller each disappeared. Tria Foster,

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known as Tria Jester at the time, lived with her grandparents in the

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Wedgewood area and was friends with Sarah
Kashka. We talked with her by phone

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about what happened when someone attempted to
abduct to you? Was that there in

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that neighborhood? Yes, yes,
right Caddy corner from my grandparents house.

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So I was walking to my friend
house that was kind of down that hill

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on the way where those apartments were, and I was, you know,

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I had just cross the trail lake
and I was, I was right there

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at that corner. Um, and
a guy I grew up, I grew

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up, drove up and I could
have sworn it was like a green I've

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I've curved the details or listened to
the podcast, and it's saying that he

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was in a blue truck. I
remember it being a green truck, a

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greenish truck that was kindo lusty or
older. Um. And he pulled up

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and he said get in, and
I immediately went because I was always taught

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just like go walk into a house, you know, the seas act like

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you lived there. Um, I
couldn't get in, so I sat on

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the back of a car because everything's
had like card boards over there. They

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don't really have garages. So I
thought, like when couldn't see me?

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But I guess my legs were there, and he was still very good,

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I'm not leaving, you might as
well get in. I'm not going anywhere,

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and I know where you live.
Um, And so I just kind

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of sat there for a long time
and I kind of kept looking like I

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need to make it for it.
But I was afraid that he could get

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out and get me because he was
like reaching in his pocket, like maybe

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had a gun or something like that. A carspooled up behind him, and

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I want to say it was like
a station wagon because he was kind of

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in the middle of the road.
He had to pull up a little bit.

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And that's when I took off and
land to my grandparents house. But

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he remember him having kind of you
know, shoulder link brown hair, I

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want to say, like an army
green jacket on. I don't remember color

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of eyes or anything. Like that, but I remember it's sandy brown hair

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kind of long and then the older
greenish truck. As it turns out,

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another friend of tree Is had an
encounter with a man fitting that same description.

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My girlfriend I was walking to somebody
was following her in a similar truck

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when she was on her bicycle.
And that was right up from where my

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grandparents was. So and that was
probably a month after a debt. What

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happened, miss day So I think
he was in that area for a while.

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The person, the person that followed
her was at the same type of

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truck. Yes, yes, yeah, I don't think they called the police

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and he didn't stop and try to
do anything. But her mom called my

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grandmother and had a long conversation about
it, and like neither of us were

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really allowed to walk or rider bikes
around there anymore. And this was in

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broad daylight, correct, broad daylight. This was the middle of the day.

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There's like two o'clock in the afternoon, okay, on like a Saturday.

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Is it possible this is the assailant
who abducted and murdered Sarah Koshka.

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Remember we told you in episode two
that a car was stolen from the Wedgewood

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area the same night that Sarah went
missing. That car was later found abandoned

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somewhere in Dallas. We're not sure
if it was the same part of Dallas

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where Sarah's body was found, but
the val was not a pickup truck.

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Tria gave us some of her thoughts
about Sarah. We would talk on the

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phone all the time. She was
like my confident person because she was older

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and always, you know, gave
advice and stuff like that. So she

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was older, she was. She
was also kind of more, you know,

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she was. She was not somebody
really messed with that reason. I

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just remember that being like, was
really surprised, like she would she either

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she knew this person or she would
have put up a fight. I think

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knowing who she is. While Tria's
experience may help shed light on Sarah's abduction

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and murder, and maybe even Angie
Ewart's, it does little to help explain

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the other cases. A third potential
suspect was brought to our attention by a

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listener who messaged us on Facebook.
In January of nineteen seventy eight, seventeen

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year old Licia McGee was brutally murdered
after she didn't return home late one evening,

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her car was found abandoned on the
side of the highway and her body

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was found in the trunk. Although
her murder happened several years before the cases

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we have discussed in our first season, Leicia lived in southwest Fort Worth and

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her car and body were recovered along
the same route Angie Ewrett was driving the

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night she pulled over with a flat
tire and then vanished. Leicia McGee's killer

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has never been officially identified. However, a cigarette butt left in Licia's car

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led investigators years later to a Fort
worthman who was in prison for aggravated assault.

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That man is Robin Duwayne Carter.
This is Karen, and DNA recovered

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from those cigarettes were tied both to
the victim and to Robin Carter. And

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although Robin lived in the same neighborhood
as the victim, he says that they

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did not have any interaction with each
other, that they had never really met

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or talked or hung out anything like
that, so there was no reason for

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his DNA to be on a cigarette
butt inside her vehicle. But police say

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the cigarette but was there the DNA
as a positive result, and that's how

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they tracked it to him. Carter
is scheduled to be released on parole after

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serving a prison term for severely injuring
a woman in nineteen ninety five in a

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Fort Worth suburb. Prosecutors said he
deliberately hit the woman with a pickup he

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was driving while she was out for
a walk. The woman survived, but

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required five surgeries and months of physical
therapy to recover. It wasn't Robin Carter's

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first brush with the law. His
rap sheet dates back to his teen years.

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When he was just sixteen, he
was charged with attacking a twenty four

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year old seminary student who notably was
having car trouble. That crime happened just

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days after Lesia McGee was murdered.
Carter later got into trouble for marijuana possession,

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d WI, and burglary of a
vehicle. In nineteen eighty seven,

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he went on an hour's long crime
spree that included carjacking, theft, and

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aggravated robbery. He committed the string
of crimes in fort Worth and neighboring Benbrook.

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Carter was originally a person of interest
in Lesha McGee's murder, but he

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was never charged. Then, in
two thousand and nine, Carter's DNA returned

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to Coda's hit when compared with the
DNA of the cigarette, but from Lesiha's

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car. It's also noteworthy that it
was in December of nineteen seventy seven when

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he stole a seminary student's car during
his attack on her. He was arrested

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after he wrecked the vehicle on a
neighborhood street. Less than two months later,

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Lesia McGee was on her way home
from visiting friends on the street that

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Carter wrecked the stolen car when she
was attacked and killed. The strange thing,

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though, is that the prosecutor is
not going to bring this to trial

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and less new evidence comes forward because
the existence of the DNA on the cigarette,

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but he says is not enough for
a conviction, and he's afraid of

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losing the case because all of his
other convictions and the circumstantial evidence the prosecutor

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says would not be admissible in court. So was Robin Carter, who lived

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near the Wedgewood area in the late
seventies and early eighties, only a few

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streets away from Lesia McGee, responsible
for the nineteen eighty four disappearances of Angela

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Ewart, Sarah Kashka and Cindy Heller. It's certainly possible, but we feel

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that it's unlikely. In all of
our seven cold cases, sexual assault appears

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to be a motivating fact one that
is an established pattern. For Curtis Don

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Brown, it does not appear that
Lesha McGee was sexually assaulted. That leads

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me to a question that I wanted
to ask, Claire. Have you encountered

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a lot in in the work that
you've done where prosecutors and investigators are at

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odds and how as a reporter do
you approach that and try to tell that

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story and tell both sides of that
story. Yeah, it's a challenge whenever

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there isn't a clear runaway suspect that's
head and shoulders above the rest. But

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in our experience, in my experience, typically you know, they reserve the

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suspect for when they have you know, their their clear guy, you know

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in their law enforcement eyes, in
the eyes of the state that will soon

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be a defendant, than they'll call
them the suspect. And before that,

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you know, it's persons of interest, and that's that's a can be a

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difficult area to come in as a
reporter and talk about persons of interest because

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you want to be fair to everyone. A fourth potential suspect that we wish

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we would have taken a closer look
at before now is Glen Samuel McCurley Junior.

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Earlier this year, McCurley was convicted
of the nineteen seventy four kidnapping and

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murder of seventeen year old Carla Walker. He dragged her from a car in

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a fort Worth Bowling Alley parking lot, bludgeoned her boyfriend until he lost consciousness,

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and then took Carla about ten miles
south to rape and strangle her.

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He left her body in a culvert
near a lake. Like Robin Carter,

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McCurley had a prior conviction of kr
theft from his younger days. Also,

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like Carter, McCurley had surfaced on
detective's radar not long after the murder,

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but they were never able to definitively
link him to the case. However,

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in twenty tw money, new DNA
testing produced conclusive evidence. Now detectives are

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reviewing other cold cases to see if
any evidence remains that could be tested against

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mccurley's DNA. Glenn McCurley moved to
Fort Worth in nineteen seventy two and was

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free to commit crimes until his arrest
last year. In nineteen seventy eight,

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he and his wife bought a house
in a neighborhood just northwest of the Wedgewood

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area, and he still lived there
when he was arrested. The house is

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less than a ten minute drive from
the spots where Katherine Davis, Cindy Heller,

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00:25:34.000 --> 00:25:41.720
Angie Ewart, and Sarah Kashka were
all taken. It's also really interesting

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that when McCurley was arrested for a
car theft back in nineteen sixty one,

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he had also stolen that vehicle from
a Bowling Alley parking lot, and his

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known victim, Carla Walker, was
kidnapped from a Bowling Alley parking lot in

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another part of town. Wedgewood Bowl, which touted in nineteen eighty four newspaper

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ads that it sold soft drinks for
a quarter and hot dogs for fifty cents,

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was just down the hill from the
gas station where Angie Ewart bought gas

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the night she was taken, and
directly across the street from where Sarah Koshka

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was last seen alive. McCurley didn't
live as close to the spots where these

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women vanished, as Curtis Don Brown
did. But he's a very viable person

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of interest, and like Curtis Brown, McCurley spent time as a teenager in

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a boy's home. E two clearly
had a troubled childhood. It was in

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the interest of fairness that we didn't
spend a lot of time in the podcast

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discussing a person who was arrested in
nineteen eighty five, specifically in connection with

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Sarah Cooshka's murder. That person was
Rensen Wolf, who we mentioned briefly in

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episode four when we discussed possible suspects. Wolf, if you recall, was

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the son of wealthy and well known
New Yorkers. He found his way to

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Fort Worth, Texas, where he
later became embroiled in a child molestation charge

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in nineteen eighty three, a charge
that, while later dropped, was still

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pending when he was arrested in nineteen
eighty five. We spent a great deal

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of time investigating remsen Wolf. However, like the police task force in nineteen

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eighty five, we could find nothing
that substantiated him as a viable suspect.

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Despite the unusual circumstances surrounding him.
Not long after wolf was released, he

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returned to New York, and we
can't find any reports of crimes he was

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later associated with. After Wolfe died
in nineteen ninety eight, the contents of

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a storage unit filled with his belongings
went up for auction. We reached out

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to the owner and manager of that
storage facility to determine if, by chance,

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any of the contents were cataloged before
the auction. We never received a

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response. Similarly, we have been
unable to determine what became of Curtis Don

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00:28:03.200 --> 00:28:08.039
Brown's belongings after he died in prison
earlier this year. We have filed a

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00:28:08.079 --> 00:28:12.680
request for that information from the Texas
Department of Corrections. It is still pending,

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and we will, of course let
you know if we discover anything important.

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In both cases, it's possible that
materials left behind by either of these

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00:28:22.200 --> 00:28:26.359
men could shed light on their involvement, if any, in these mysterious cold

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cases. Since Claire Saintemal was gracious
enough to share some time with us,

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we wanted to get her general opinions
as a listener of our podcast about her

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thoughts on this nineteen eighties murder spree
are you shocked to think about what happened

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in the eighties and like, oh
my gosh, who knew. I mean,

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what were your reactions to that?
Yeah? Absolutely, I had no

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idea that there was this, um, you know, extremely fraught situation for

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women traveling alone in their cars in
the DFW area, you know, in

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00:29:11.799 --> 00:29:18.920
the eighties that that was like a
daily concern that you know, I several

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of the people that you interviewed on
your podcast talked about just the feeling of

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panic and anxiety, and you know, like you said, this is the

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00:29:26.960 --> 00:29:30.400
age before cell phones, and so
the idea that you know, if you

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00:29:30.440 --> 00:29:36.920
get into car trouble, you know, it's potentially a life threatening situation is

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terrifying. And you know, as
a crime reporter, who's who's cynical and

335
00:29:41.799 --> 00:29:45.119
and everything else. I always tell
my friends, you know, if you

336
00:29:45.119 --> 00:29:48.240
get a flat tire, just drive
on the rim until you can get somewhere.

337
00:29:48.319 --> 00:29:52.599
Do not pull over on the side
of the road, like it's not

338
00:29:52.799 --> 00:29:56.279
worth it. Like if it's it's
dark and you're alone, you know,

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00:29:56.599 --> 00:30:00.279
just get somewhere, get somewhere with
other people and hopefully some security cameras and

340
00:30:00.480 --> 00:30:04.599
all that good stuff, because um, you know, stranger danger is rare,

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00:30:06.119 --> 00:30:10.359
but um, there's certain circumstances that
can make it, you know,

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much more likely that you could,
you know, become become a target of

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00:30:15.839 --> 00:30:22.200
these absolutely, um, you know, just unbelievable. It's hard to call

344
00:30:22.240 --> 00:30:26.359
them bad luck. But you know, if you're in the if you just

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00:30:26.440 --> 00:30:30.279
happen to come across the path of
someone who you know wishous harm and you're

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00:30:30.279 --> 00:30:36.440
in a vulnerable situation, it can
end very badly. And you know,

347
00:30:36.559 --> 00:30:41.240
just trying to not live your life
in fear, but also just recognizing,

348
00:30:41.559 --> 00:30:45.079
you know, maybe maybe I'm just
gonna push it and get to that gas

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00:30:45.079 --> 00:30:49.240
station or get to somewhere where you
know there will be other people around.

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Um, you know, I think
that that's uh, that's good advice.

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00:30:53.319 --> 00:31:00.720
Even in twenty twenty one, let's
talk about DNA evidence. We're constantly trying

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00:31:00.759 --> 00:31:06.279
to push and find ways to get
evidence that can be tested for DNA,

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00:31:06.359 --> 00:31:10.759
whether it matches Curtis Don Brown or
not. Our goal is to find out

354
00:31:10.920 --> 00:31:15.559
you know, who the who the
killer was. UM, have you encountered

355
00:31:15.559 --> 00:31:19.160
that in the stories that you've covered, How does DNA evidence play into anything

356
00:31:19.160 --> 00:31:23.400
that you've covered, anything interesting that
you've encountered along those lines, as you've

357
00:31:23.440 --> 00:31:26.759
been a crime reporter for so long. Yeah, probably. Some of the

358
00:31:26.799 --> 00:31:33.960
more interesting cases are where they've had
DNA and they've they've used it to create

359
00:31:33.480 --> 00:31:38.759
a suspect profile. Um. There's
a place called parabin Labs and they can

360
00:31:38.799 --> 00:31:42.960
actually take if it's a good enough
of a DNA sample, they can take

361
00:31:44.000 --> 00:31:49.960
it and create a sketch of the
victim and that is just fascinating by you

362
00:31:51.000 --> 00:31:53.799
know, the features of the DNA. They're able to say, this is

363
00:31:53.880 --> 00:31:59.359
what the person's facial structure looks like, this is their race, this is

364
00:31:59.400 --> 00:32:02.640
their ICL her hair color. In
some cases, the picture that they have

365
00:32:02.759 --> 00:32:09.400
drawn looks like a drawing of someone's
driver's license picture. And it has solved

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00:32:09.440 --> 00:32:15.440
crimes. They have solved multiple cases
across the country. And it's a developing

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00:32:15.920 --> 00:32:21.759
technology, but it's one that law
enforcement is relying on, especially in cases

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00:32:21.799 --> 00:32:25.480
where they have a good DNA profile
and they don't have a suspect. You

369
00:32:25.519 --> 00:32:30.880
know, it's a way to get
you know, like an artist surrendering of

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00:32:30.960 --> 00:32:34.880
a suspect, and a lot of
times they do that and they put it

371
00:32:34.920 --> 00:32:38.319
out in the public in the media
and people call in because they recognize the

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00:32:38.359 --> 00:32:43.960
person. That's how accurate it can
be. As we shared in our final

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episode last March, Arlington police are
still trying to solve the murder of Terry

374
00:32:47.839 --> 00:32:53.599
McAdams, the UTA student found brutally
killed in her boyfriend's apartment on Valentine's Day

375
00:32:53.839 --> 00:33:00.200
nineteen eighty five. We believe that
because Terry and Sarah Costca were found then

376
00:33:00.319 --> 00:33:04.440
days of their murders, their cases
may have the best chance of being solved

377
00:33:04.440 --> 00:33:09.839
through DNA If sufficient evidence was saved, we pray that remaining DNA could be

378
00:33:09.920 --> 00:33:15.200
used to build a suspect rendering like
the one Claire just described. I want

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to mention two that a foundation associated
with the Fort Worth Police Department has been

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00:33:21.000 --> 00:33:23.400
set up as a way for donors
to help pay for new, more advanced

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00:33:23.559 --> 00:33:29.640
DNA testing of evidence from Fort Worth
cold cases. If you're interested, you

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00:33:29.680 --> 00:33:37.160
can make a donation online at FWPD
Cold Cases Support dot org. That's FWPD

383
00:33:37.759 --> 00:33:42.920
for Fort Worth Police Department Cold Case
Support dot Org. Will include a link

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00:33:42.920 --> 00:33:55.319
in our show notes. Now,
I want to ask you a question about

385
00:33:55.400 --> 00:34:01.559
Final Days. The question I was
going to ask you today was about the

386
00:34:01.640 --> 00:34:09.000
cognitive interview that you wanted to conduct
with Linda. If you haven't yet listened

387
00:34:09.039 --> 00:34:14.679
to Final Days on Earth, Linda
Nienhauser was a Colorado hiker who saw the

388
00:34:14.719 --> 00:34:17.760
body of Damien heard from a distance
the day after he went missing from a

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00:34:17.840 --> 00:34:23.360
late night Collins party in twenty fourteen. As Claire reveals in a bonus episode

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00:34:23.400 --> 00:34:29.480
that came out last August, Linda
Nienhauser, who had earlier agreed to undergo

391
00:34:29.599 --> 00:34:35.719
a cognitive interview, unfortunately died of
cancer in January twenty twenty one before that

392
00:34:35.800 --> 00:34:40.559
interview could happen. That is so
true and it was heartbreaking. So the

393
00:34:40.639 --> 00:34:45.840
idea of a cognitive interview is that
it's not using hypnosis. It's just using

394
00:34:45.960 --> 00:34:53.920
memory aids and techniques that trauma therapists
use for people to go back in the

395
00:34:54.000 --> 00:35:01.559
recesses of their mind and recall usually
traumatic events that for the most part,

396
00:35:04.039 --> 00:35:08.239
they really do have a place in
your brain that for your own emotional health

397
00:35:08.239 --> 00:35:15.639
and protection that you block off and
their ways. There's relaxation exercises that have

398
00:35:15.760 --> 00:35:22.559
been proven to help you access those
memories. And you know, it's often

399
00:35:22.719 --> 00:35:27.440
used with people who have endured trauma. You know, it can be used

400
00:35:27.480 --> 00:35:32.679
with children who have seen something and
you know, it's imprinted on them and

401
00:35:34.159 --> 00:35:37.400
ten years later, five years later, whatever it may be, you know,

402
00:35:37.400 --> 00:35:44.039
they're able to recall it with pretty
good you know clarity. And forensic

403
00:35:44.280 --> 00:35:49.559
artists have used it with women and
other people who've been attacked and they don't

404
00:35:49.719 --> 00:35:54.239
they think they can't remember anything about
their attacker, but they're able to go

405
00:35:54.320 --> 00:35:59.320
back to that place put themselves in
that moment. A lot of it has

406
00:35:59.360 --> 00:36:02.599
to do with um, you know, ye like I said, relaxation and

407
00:36:02.639 --> 00:36:07.599
then also you know, building that
memory piece by piece, you know,

408
00:36:07.719 --> 00:36:10.559
would you remember what you were wearing, do you remember where you were sitting?

409
00:36:10.599 --> 00:36:15.239
Do you remember you know what time
of day it was? And it

410
00:36:15.239 --> 00:36:19.559
it really does help you, um, to get back to that place and

411
00:36:19.599 --> 00:36:22.800
to to pull up you know,
those memories in your mind. And then

412
00:36:22.880 --> 00:36:27.320
there have been you know, proven
it is somewhat controversial there of course,

413
00:36:27.320 --> 00:36:30.599
there will always be people that that
um you know, don't support it,

414
00:36:30.639 --> 00:36:35.480
don't believe in it, UM,
but it has been used you know,

415
00:36:35.599 --> 00:36:42.559
in in criminal cases and court cases
by you know, authorities. Not being

416
00:36:42.559 --> 00:36:46.239
able to conduct a cognitive interview with
Lynda Nienhauser is a big setback and Claire's

417
00:36:46.239 --> 00:36:52.880
mission to uncover exactly how Damian Hurd
died. In her podcast, she talks

418
00:36:52.880 --> 00:36:55.760
about how she has waffled over the
years trying to make sense of a very

419
00:36:55.840 --> 00:37:01.079
strange situation. Given my own feeling
about what happened to Damien, I just

420
00:37:01.159 --> 00:37:07.119
had to ask Claire where she stands
today. So the final question that I

421
00:37:07.159 --> 00:37:10.400
want to ask you about Final Days, I'll be honest, the first two

422
00:37:10.440 --> 00:37:14.519
or three episodes, I kept going, Man, Claire's reaching, Claire's reaching.

423
00:37:14.599 --> 00:37:17.840
This kid just killed himself. He
just killed himself. Now, I'm

424
00:37:17.840 --> 00:37:24.440
not sure. There's just so much
there. There's just so much inconsistencies.

425
00:37:25.199 --> 00:37:29.880
I'm just not sure. Is that
where you land today? You know,

426
00:37:30.000 --> 00:37:34.320
I really do go back and forth
on my theories and what I believe.

427
00:37:35.719 --> 00:37:42.039
You know, The place that I
feel that I'm in today is we deserve

428
00:37:42.079 --> 00:37:45.480
more answers. His family deserves more
answers, and it seems to me that

429
00:37:46.599 --> 00:37:52.559
they could be given those answers if
people would come forward and talk about the

430
00:37:52.639 --> 00:37:59.440
ID card usage, if they would
talk about, you know, if we

431
00:37:59.440 --> 00:38:05.400
could identify who was driving that white
truck that day at Cabin Creek and who

432
00:38:05.440 --> 00:38:10.480
was using those bicycles. I believe
that there could be innocent explanations for all

433
00:38:10.519 --> 00:38:15.519
of it, but we need to
hear it. As we ended our conversation,

434
00:38:15.800 --> 00:38:20.559
Claire had a question for us.
I was so glad to find your

435
00:38:20.599 --> 00:38:25.639
podcast because it's so well produced and
it's such an interesting story and really opened

436
00:38:25.679 --> 00:38:30.719
my eyes to a trend that was
going on in DFW that you know,

437
00:38:30.760 --> 00:38:37.039
I had no idea about. And
you know, I guess was this was

438
00:38:37.079 --> 00:38:43.079
Curtis not Curtis don Brown. But
were these unsolved cases things that you had

439
00:38:43.119 --> 00:38:49.280
worked on previously in your career and
you had how did you find your topic

440
00:38:49.400 --> 00:38:52.079
for still for season one? So
that's one of the things that Christina and

441
00:38:52.079 --> 00:38:58.880
I debate about because we can't remember
exactly who first found these cases. I

442
00:38:58.920 --> 00:39:00.920
think it was her, She thinks
it was me. Part of it was

443
00:39:00.960 --> 00:39:06.000
also the fact that we grew up
in DFW. We were alive when that

444
00:39:06.039 --> 00:39:08.760
was going on. We were living
in the Dallas area, not Fort Worth,

445
00:39:09.079 --> 00:39:13.480
and so we were oblivious to what
was happening in Fort Worth. So

446
00:39:13.559 --> 00:39:16.519
as she really started diving in,
As Christine started diving in and we would

447
00:39:16.559 --> 00:39:21.239
just start talking about it, I
just kept getting mortified. I kept going,

448
00:39:22.039 --> 00:39:24.519
my god, we were here,
we lived through this. How did

449
00:39:24.519 --> 00:39:30.199
I not hear a thing about all
of these women being found murdered and missing,

450
00:39:30.920 --> 00:39:34.679
you know, just thirty miles down
the road when I was a junior

451
00:39:34.719 --> 00:39:37.440
and senior in high school. So
that was the personal connection for me.

452
00:39:38.559 --> 00:39:43.280
I think you kind of felt the
same way, but it just grew into

453
00:39:43.320 --> 00:39:47.559
something that we felt really passionate about. I would say I was those women.

454
00:39:49.079 --> 00:39:52.559
I was those women at that time. I was the same age,

455
00:39:52.960 --> 00:39:59.599
I had the same experiences with college. I went to the same nightclubs,

456
00:40:00.199 --> 00:40:07.679
and I heard about them on the
news at the time, and you thought

457
00:40:07.679 --> 00:40:14.320
about myself and my safety as a
result. So for me it was extremely

458
00:40:14.440 --> 00:40:17.880
personal. Well, Claire, it's
been a real pleasure. We thank you

459
00:40:17.920 --> 00:40:22.000
for making the track over to our
neck of the woods, and thank you

460
00:40:22.039 --> 00:40:27.639
so much for being willing to spend
your afternoon with us. So this was

461
00:40:27.760 --> 00:40:34.559
very interesting. Yeah, I enjoyed
it. Thanks for having me. So

462
00:40:35.320 --> 00:40:39.800
with season one behind us, many
of you have asked what's next for season

463
00:40:39.840 --> 00:40:45.360
two, we're moving to a different
cold case. Well, actually it's two

464
00:40:45.480 --> 00:40:52.480
cold cases, both of which take
us to the Pacific Northwest. First,

465
00:40:52.599 --> 00:40:55.760
we have a woman who vanished and
was presumably murdered in nineteen seventy six,

466
00:40:58.119 --> 00:41:01.159
and then there is a woman's body
that was found in the area almost exactly

467
00:41:01.199 --> 00:41:07.880
two years later. Like everyone associated
with the cases, we're trying to figure

468
00:41:07.920 --> 00:41:14.079
it out. Is this the same
woman? With DNA and modern forensics?

469
00:41:14.320 --> 00:41:19.480
That should be easy, right?
What could have happened that has kept those

470
00:41:19.519 --> 00:41:27.079
long awaited answers hidden for so long? Join us January twenty seven for season

471
00:41:27.159 --> 00:41:37.639
two of Still. Anyone with information
pertaining to any of the murders in season

472
00:41:37.679 --> 00:41:43.480
one should contact the Fort Worth Police
Department's Cold Case Unit at cold Case at

473
00:41:43.519 --> 00:41:52.039
fort WORTHPD dot com. Still as
a production of The Reporter's Notebook and Grayson

474
00:41:52.079 --> 00:41:59.400
Shaw Media, You can connect with
us online at The Reporter's Notebook dot com

475
00:41:59.519 --> 00:42:07.280
or via email at info at the
Reporter's Notebook dot com. Still was researched,

476
00:42:07.360 --> 00:42:14.280
written and produced by Karen Shaw Anderson. Research was also provided by associate

477
00:42:14.320 --> 00:42:25.679
producer Christine Hughes. Original music by
Smith Uoso, I'm Your Host and associate

478
00:42:25.719 --> 00:42:35.920
producer Gary Anderson. Special thanks to
Claire Santama, hosting producer of Final Days

479
00:42:35.960 --> 00:42:45.760
on Earth. Like Follow and subscribe
to still on your favorite podcast platform and

480
00:42:45.920 --> 00:42:55.280
follow us on Facebook, Twitter,
or Instagram to join the conversation. Limitations

481
00:42:55.360 --> 00:42:59.760
three twenty one. Yet I still
dare to hope when I remember this