1 00:00:32,880 --> 00:00:37,399 What Up? What Up? Everybody? Welcome to another podcast where I, 2 00:00:37,600 --> 00:00:41,240 Paul Abernathy, answer all of your questions related to the National Electrical Code. 3 00:00:41,920 --> 00:00:46,880 And I give you the opportunity to ask me questions by simply going to Paul 4 00:00:46,960 --> 00:00:51,560 Abernathy dot com and you can submit questions to me here at that Let's Ask 5 00:00:51,640 --> 00:00:54,880 Paul podcasts, and I would do my best to answer those questions for you 6 00:00:55,000 --> 00:00:59,920 either in an email or where selected on an upcoming podcast, much like to 7 00:01:00,079 --> 00:01:04,120 day's podcast. So we're in the studio. Hopefully everybody had a wonderful Thanksgiving 8 00:01:04,400 --> 00:01:08,879 with the family and you're ready to get back into it, remembering we're starting 9 00:01:08,920 --> 00:01:15,439 the season of giving and caring and you know, the holiday season. For 10 00:01:15,599 --> 00:01:19,280 years, I didn't really like to celebrate Christmas that much because I had lost 11 00:01:19,359 --> 00:01:23,599 my mother during December and it just left a bad taste in my mouth. 12 00:01:23,680 --> 00:01:29,120 But I realized after a couple of years that she would. She loved Christmas, 13 00:01:29,120 --> 00:01:32,760 so she's like, you know what it is, what it is, 14 00:01:32,879 --> 00:01:37,480 move on and celebrate with your family. So we have doing so. And 15 00:01:37,519 --> 00:01:41,680 so one of our traditions is the Christmas tree went up on Thanksgiving Day. 16 00:01:41,719 --> 00:01:45,400 That's just what we do, and it's a brand new tree. My wife 17 00:01:45,439 --> 00:01:49,159 wanted a new tree this year, artificial still, but as the LEDs on 18 00:01:49,200 --> 00:01:52,519 it, that's what she wanted. So she got what she wanted and it's 19 00:01:52,519 --> 00:01:59,319 a beautiful little tree. And yeah, so we're moving on and getting the 20 00:01:59,359 --> 00:02:06,319 season of celebrating in and that's always a good thing. So all right, 21 00:02:06,359 --> 00:02:14,479 So on today's oh I should mention today's episode is sponsored by Sparky Mafia sparkymafia 22 00:02:14,520 --> 00:02:17,800 dot com and it's where you can go get your unique Sparky Mafia swag. 23 00:02:17,960 --> 00:02:22,199 We have the minimalist wallets available over there. You can have them customized with 24 00:02:22,240 --> 00:02:24,919 your name or your company name. They're interested in those, check it out. 25 00:02:24,919 --> 00:02:30,680 There's also some other things over there, some hats and shirts and other 26 00:02:30,759 --> 00:02:34,639 goodies over there, mousepads or whatever. I'm not one hundred percent sure, 27 00:02:35,120 --> 00:02:39,560 but go check it out over at Sparkymafia dot com. And there's also stuff 28 00:02:39,560 --> 00:02:45,439 available also on our store at Ourfasttracksystem dot com as well, if you're interested 29 00:02:45,439 --> 00:02:50,039 in any of those things. All right, So today's episode, I had 30 00:02:50,080 --> 00:02:57,599 somebody submit a question, and I guess the question was based on something I 31 00:02:57,639 --> 00:03:01,439 had posted or something that's out there. On a public input that's talking about 32 00:03:02,439 --> 00:03:08,120 clarifying what an outlet is. And so I guess there is confusion out there 33 00:03:08,240 --> 00:03:14,280 by folks on what an outlet is. Uh. And so you know, 34 00:03:14,759 --> 00:03:17,919 the talk is, well, if you have this rule with GFCI requirements in 35 00:03:17,919 --> 00:03:22,879 two ten dot eight F, is that really an outlet? If there's just 36 00:03:22,919 --> 00:03:29,719 a disconnect outside and it's supplying a piece of equipment HVAC equipment or something like 37 00:03:29,719 --> 00:03:34,280 that, is that an outlet? In understanding the concepts of it. And 38 00:03:34,319 --> 00:03:36,680 so that's kind of what we're going to talk about today. And again I'm 39 00:03:36,680 --> 00:03:39,039 not here to bash anybody's opinion on it. They're entitled to their opinion. 40 00:03:40,080 --> 00:03:44,680 I'm just going to kind of give my take on it and how I believe 41 00:03:44,719 --> 00:03:46,400 the NEEC looks at it and how other people look at it, and I 42 00:03:46,400 --> 00:03:52,879 believe how Code panelty will ultimately I look at it. Is when we're talking 43 00:03:52,879 --> 00:03:55,039 about an outlet now in the Nationalgical Code, and again we're talking twenty twenty 44 00:03:55,039 --> 00:04:01,199 three edition because that's the most recently published. If you go look up the 45 00:04:01,240 --> 00:04:05,080 definition of outlet and I'm going to read it to you, and I want 46 00:04:05,080 --> 00:04:09,000 you to understand that when I look at something like this and I look at 47 00:04:09,000 --> 00:04:15,319 a definition of outlet. I'm not reading this as any one thing, right, 48 00:04:15,360 --> 00:04:18,680 I'm not reading this as a box. I'm not reading this as a 49 00:04:18,720 --> 00:04:24,560 cabinet. I'm not read I'm looking at it and saying, Okay, an 50 00:04:24,560 --> 00:04:29,079 outlet can be many things. Now, we don't have to call something because 51 00:04:29,199 --> 00:04:31,800 this is this is really when you look at the definition of outlet, it's 52 00:04:31,879 --> 00:04:38,480 really talking about an action from a point where we're taking you know, supplying 53 00:04:38,560 --> 00:04:43,560 power from the electrical system, the wiring of the system to supply a piece 54 00:04:44,040 --> 00:04:48,360 of utilization equipment. Okay, of course we have a definition of utilization equipment 55 00:04:48,399 --> 00:04:51,000 as well in an article one hundred. He'd behooves you to go look that 56 00:04:51,120 --> 00:04:56,040 up. Well, we're just we're talking about taking power and so you know, 57 00:04:56,079 --> 00:05:00,360 I would argue that an HVAC unit utilization equipment an example of that. 58 00:05:01,600 --> 00:05:05,480 So anyway, so when it says outlet, here's what it's defined as. 59 00:05:05,879 --> 00:05:10,120 It says a point. It doesn't say a box, it doesn't say a 60 00:05:10,160 --> 00:05:14,759 cabinet, it doesn't say an enclosure. It just says a point on the 61 00:05:14,800 --> 00:05:23,839 wiring system at which current is taken to supply utilization equipment, right, And 62 00:05:23,879 --> 00:05:28,399 I think what happens a lot of times is we get really lost in the 63 00:05:28,480 --> 00:05:33,600 term outlet. And again there is this big confusion where people call receptacles outlets. 64 00:05:34,000 --> 00:05:40,680 Receptacles another defined term is actually a device, which is also a defined 65 00:05:40,759 --> 00:05:46,680 term an Article one hundred. So, but the receptacles will go in a 66 00:05:46,759 --> 00:05:53,519 box, and ultimately when it goes into that box, then what you end 67 00:05:53,639 --> 00:05:56,199 up having people say, Okay, well, if you're going to mount that 68 00:05:56,279 --> 00:06:00,360 device in a box, right, then you're going to put it in and 69 00:06:00,360 --> 00:06:06,879 that's called a receptacle outlet. Now, it doesn't necessarily say that it's a 70 00:06:06,920 --> 00:06:13,199 box, right, but it does say recept goal. It says an outlet 71 00:06:13,279 --> 00:06:20,480 where one or more receptacles are installed. So you're installing the device in the 72 00:06:20,560 --> 00:06:26,560 outlet. Although if you look in the National Electrical Code, and we typically 73 00:06:26,600 --> 00:06:31,040 would install this device in what an outlet box, right, and that's typically 74 00:06:31,120 --> 00:06:35,600 what we would call it. Well, if you look in it, and 75 00:06:35,639 --> 00:06:44,199 you'll notice that under the definitions, there isn't anything for outlet box, right, 76 00:06:44,199 --> 00:06:48,399 there's an outlet box hood right, Well, there's nothing for outlet box, 77 00:06:48,480 --> 00:06:54,040 and we do refer to that a lot and so there's nothing really there. 78 00:06:54,360 --> 00:07:00,600 So if you actually go and look under box just for craps giggles, 79 00:07:00,959 --> 00:07:05,959 and you go look and try to find something specific to that, and I 80 00:07:06,000 --> 00:07:11,480 go look under it, and I'm just looking in the article one hundred right 81 00:07:11,519 --> 00:07:15,519 now, which you could do the same thing is I'm looking in there and 82 00:07:15,759 --> 00:07:21,079 I'm not seeing any definition of a box. Okay, So then you could 83 00:07:21,160 --> 00:07:27,800 look under the definition of enclosure, and a lot of times people will cite 84 00:07:27,839 --> 00:07:30,959 that is okay, Well, what about if it's an enclosure? Okay, 85 00:07:31,040 --> 00:07:41,319 if you look under enclosure and the definition of enclosure, it says a case 86 00:07:41,480 --> 00:07:46,800 or housing of apparatus or a fence or wall surrounding an installation to prevent personnel 87 00:07:46,839 --> 00:07:51,759 from accidentally contacting energized parts. Typically what you would get an application where you 88 00:07:51,800 --> 00:07:57,959 know, over a thousand volt applications you might have this fencing protect personnel or 89 00:07:58,000 --> 00:08:00,920 even greater than that higher voltage levels, things like that. But again, 90 00:08:00,959 --> 00:08:05,360 a closure, a case, or a housing that type of thing, and 91 00:08:05,399 --> 00:08:11,120 it's protective things, but it doesn't necessarily If I were to have an enclosure 92 00:08:11,560 --> 00:08:18,079 and the enclosure had incorporated in it a receptacle, then that would be an 93 00:08:18,120 --> 00:08:24,399 outlet in that enclosure that the device is mounted into. I mean, you 94 00:08:24,439 --> 00:08:30,120 see where I'm going with this. It kind of gets into one of those 95 00:08:30,360 --> 00:08:39,159 things about semantics and trying to possibly create something that is really not there, 96 00:08:39,840 --> 00:08:45,120 right, And it does cause confusion when you go down that rabbit hole type 97 00:08:45,159 --> 00:08:48,679 of things. Now, I fully understand there's people that believe that that, 98 00:08:48,000 --> 00:08:52,919 for example, the disconnect to an outside air conditioning unit is not an outlet 99 00:08:54,639 --> 00:09:01,159 because they cite the definition of disconnect right. A disconnect means right, and 100 00:09:01,240 --> 00:09:07,279 so disconnecting means says that it is a device or group of devices, or 101 00:09:07,320 --> 00:09:13,200 other means by which the conductors of a circuit can be disconnected from their source 102 00:09:13,440 --> 00:09:20,399 of supply. So you have to understand that the disconnecting means if it's an 103 00:09:20,399 --> 00:09:26,320 exterior disconnect that's there for the air conditioning unit, let's say HVAC unit, 104 00:09:28,919 --> 00:09:33,000 then if you look at it this way, the source of power comes to 105 00:09:33,039 --> 00:09:39,159 the disconnect on the line side. The disconnect breaks that that is an enclosure 106 00:09:39,279 --> 00:09:46,600 to which this disconnect, this device breakers, uses whatever switch is installed inside 107 00:09:46,639 --> 00:09:50,519 of it, but that is the source of power to that point. From 108 00:09:50,559 --> 00:09:58,720 there, it's supplying power to the unit from the system, which classically would 109 00:09:58,759 --> 00:10:05,480 be how we would come up with it being also an outlet. Why because 110 00:10:05,480 --> 00:10:07,600 of the definition of an outlet. See, the definition of an outlet didn't 111 00:10:07,639 --> 00:10:13,639 put itself in a nice little package of just boxes or just cabinets or just 112 00:10:13,759 --> 00:10:18,840 enclosures. It literally can be a point on the system where you take power 113 00:10:18,840 --> 00:10:22,879 to supply utilization equipment. You have a lighting outlets, okay, the defined 114 00:10:22,960 --> 00:10:28,039 term, you have receptacle outlets, define term. It just so happens that 115 00:10:28,120 --> 00:10:35,960 those devices could be mounted into a box, right, And so trying to 116 00:10:35,879 --> 00:10:43,320 put outlet in one thing and say that, okay, well, since it 117 00:10:43,360 --> 00:10:46,679 comes from the source which is the panel and runs through the dwelling, goes 118 00:10:46,720 --> 00:10:54,320 to a disconnect, which is a enclosure that has devices in it to disconnect 119 00:10:54,919 --> 00:11:00,840 power from the utilization equipment, it's hard to say that at that point that 120 00:11:01,000 --> 00:11:07,679 is not under the definition considered an outlet for all intensive purposes. And that 121 00:11:07,840 --> 00:11:13,279 is kind of where they have gotten at in the rules that changed for example 122 00:11:13,960 --> 00:11:20,480 and two ten dot a F And that's why they had to put the informational 123 00:11:20,559 --> 00:11:24,720 notes. That's why they had to make reference to that. It started all 124 00:11:24,759 --> 00:11:30,480 this in Texas again with the GFCIs not functioning properly for like mini splits and 125 00:11:30,519 --> 00:11:33,919 things like that. So they were worried more in Texas that the GFCIs would 126 00:11:33,960 --> 00:11:37,440 trip and of course then it would cause people to die of heat strokes. 127 00:11:37,440 --> 00:11:41,000 So they ended up coming up with this thing saying, you know what, 128 00:11:41,120 --> 00:11:46,799 manufacturers of GFCIs and the manufacturers of HVAC equipment, y'all need to get together 129 00:11:46,799 --> 00:11:50,519 because there obviously is a certain level of leakage current that exceeds the rating of 130 00:11:50,639 --> 00:11:54,799 UL nine forty three. And of course there's a lot of work going on 131 00:11:54,960 --> 00:12:00,399 right now in those UL standards. There's a lot of talk right now because 132 00:12:00,399 --> 00:12:05,759 we did have a major expansion when it came to think kitchens like ranges and 133 00:12:05,879 --> 00:12:11,360 dryers and and all microwave. All this stuff now requiring to be GFCI protection, 134 00:12:11,559 --> 00:12:15,320 the ranges and things like that. We're causing a problems now down here 135 00:12:15,320 --> 00:12:18,600 in Texas that have caused quite a bit of problems with the gfci's tripping. 136 00:12:18,720 --> 00:12:26,320 So the UL standard is underway and they're trying to bring clarity and change the 137 00:12:26,360 --> 00:12:30,960 standard a little bit to accommodate this. But the code is what it is. 138 00:12:31,000 --> 00:12:33,559 Now there's a lot of us that serve on various code panels that do 139 00:12:33,600 --> 00:12:41,759 not believe that we should be expanding gfci's for things like these ranges and dryers 140 00:12:41,799 --> 00:12:46,600 and all that without a little more study by the UL standard nine forty three. 141 00:12:48,919 --> 00:12:50,840 And again I'm in that camp as well. I yes, I believe 142 00:12:50,879 --> 00:12:56,720 GFCIs do save lives. I mean, it's it's proven fact. They've been 143 00:12:56,759 --> 00:13:00,480 around since the sixties, right. But at the end of the day, 144 00:13:00,919 --> 00:13:05,639 we are rapidly expanding these things and we're not necessarily sure they're going to work 145 00:13:05,759 --> 00:13:11,240 very well on these two hundred and forty vold appliances that that potentially could have 146 00:13:11,399 --> 00:13:18,159 some leakage current and maybe it's above the threshold or not. I don't know. 147 00:13:18,200 --> 00:13:22,759 There's more testing that needs to be done, okay, And so at 148 00:13:22,799 --> 00:13:26,879 this point, I don't know where we're going to be when it comes to 149 00:13:26,960 --> 00:13:31,080 pushing more expansion until all of this gets done by the UL folks and the 150 00:13:31,080 --> 00:13:35,840 different people that are on those committees. But what what I'm kind of getting 151 00:13:35,879 --> 00:13:41,679 back to the topic. I think the term outlet is, you know, 152 00:13:41,960 --> 00:13:46,559 a pretty loose In other words, it can be used in many different applications 153 00:13:46,559 --> 00:13:52,279 and many different pieces of equipment. We're not saying that an outlet is a 154 00:13:52,320 --> 00:13:58,000 box. We're not seeing an outlet is an enclosure. We're not seeing an 155 00:13:58,000 --> 00:14:03,480 outlet is a cabinet. We're not saying any of that. In fact, 156 00:14:03,480 --> 00:14:07,480 the only one that we haven't looked at, I guess at this point is 157 00:14:07,559 --> 00:14:11,600 that you know the definition of a cabinet in what that says. So if 158 00:14:11,639 --> 00:14:16,879 you look at a cabinet, the definition of cabinet, basically, it's an 159 00:14:18,039 --> 00:14:22,840 enclosure that is designed for either surface mounting or flesh mounting, and is provided 160 00:14:22,879 --> 00:14:28,240 with a frame, matt or trim to which a swinging door. So you 161 00:14:28,320 --> 00:14:33,919 have a cabinet which can be again argue that the cabinet is also an enclosure 162 00:14:33,320 --> 00:14:37,840 depending on what you're working with, and you have a door that's hung on 163 00:14:37,879 --> 00:14:43,480 it and it swings right. So a panel board, for example, is 164 00:14:43,519 --> 00:14:48,960 an electrical assembly designed and that is placed in a cabinet or in a cutout 165 00:14:50,000 --> 00:14:54,039 box. A cutout box again is designed to be surface mounted and that has 166 00:14:54,039 --> 00:14:58,919 a swinging door on it, and a panel board can be surface mounted or 167 00:14:58,960 --> 00:15:05,919 recessed that type of thing. So I think that any of those applications, 168 00:15:05,759 --> 00:15:09,600 you know, is something that we have to be very aware of that the 169 00:15:09,080 --> 00:15:16,519 term outlet doesn't get pigeonholed, if you will, into any one definition, 170 00:15:18,600 --> 00:15:22,399 right, And I think that's important, and sometimes we lose sight of that. 171 00:15:22,960 --> 00:15:28,440 Now, healthy debate is fine, right, Healthy debate is fine. 172 00:15:28,120 --> 00:15:31,200 But I'll give you any I'll give you another example. If you look at 173 00:15:31,240 --> 00:15:39,039 attachment fittings in the definition and you start looking at everything that's that's involved in 174 00:15:39,080 --> 00:15:46,480 that, and you start looking at it and it says, okay, what 175 00:15:46,519 --> 00:15:48,840 are some of the language that's in it, and say okay, so these 176 00:15:48,840 --> 00:15:56,000 are receptacles, right, and these receptacles are going to get mounted obviously in 177 00:15:56,039 --> 00:16:02,399 a box, right, And so at the end of the day, it's 178 00:16:02,519 --> 00:16:08,919 still a outlet to which these devices, these little round interconnected devices plug into. 179 00:16:11,840 --> 00:16:15,600 So you know, I think it's it's again and to close it out. 180 00:16:15,679 --> 00:16:19,960 Let's go in and look at receptacles just so we can see what we're 181 00:16:21,000 --> 00:16:26,399 talking about. And I'll get there in a second. You have your codebook, 182 00:16:26,399 --> 00:16:33,080 you can you can turn beat me to it. Probably let's see here, 183 00:16:33,759 --> 00:16:40,480 Okay, So at receptacles, we have receptacle outlet. As I saw 184 00:16:40,600 --> 00:16:44,679 earlier, told you earlier, And it's basically just says an outlet. It 185 00:16:44,679 --> 00:16:48,360 doesn't say it's a box. It just says an outlet is where one or 186 00:16:48,360 --> 00:16:52,480 more receptacles, which is are devices get installed into. If you look at 187 00:16:52,519 --> 00:17:00,279 the definition of receptacle, it says a contact device installed at the outlet for 188 00:17:00,399 --> 00:17:07,079 the connection of an attachment plug. So what if you have an exterior disconnect 189 00:17:07,000 --> 00:17:12,279 for an HVAC unit And what about the new ones that actually actually integrate a 190 00:17:12,440 --> 00:17:18,799 receptacle actually in the disconnects pretty cool. You're required to have a receptacle within 191 00:17:18,839 --> 00:17:25,640 twenty five feet for servicing right of this air conditioning unit. And so in 192 00:17:25,680 --> 00:17:33,160 this case it's integrated into the enclosure, which is the disconnecting means, does 193 00:17:33,160 --> 00:17:37,519 that change what it is at that point? Is it still Is it no 194 00:17:37,599 --> 00:17:45,119 longer an outlet? Of course, it's an outlet that happens to have a 195 00:17:45,200 --> 00:17:51,160 device installed in it. So I think the one thing that we have to 196 00:17:51,200 --> 00:17:56,119 realize when it comes to the NEEC is not to get so dug deep into 197 00:17:56,200 --> 00:18:03,160 things that to more problems than what's there. It's not broken, right, 198 00:18:03,279 --> 00:18:10,799 And the use of the term outlet is very broad. It is anywhere that 199 00:18:10,920 --> 00:18:17,319 you take power from the system to supply utilization equipment. I just so happened 200 00:18:17,359 --> 00:18:19,720 to take it for an exterior unit. I take it from the disconnect. 201 00:18:21,240 --> 00:18:26,000 That's just happens to be where I take it from. Right, So it's 202 00:18:26,319 --> 00:18:32,200 you know, I could have a box mounted outside with an actual receptacle, 203 00:18:33,279 --> 00:18:38,359 right, and that is mounted in the box, which would be a receptacle 204 00:18:38,400 --> 00:18:44,200 outlet box, and that rule would still apply to that as well to ten 205 00:18:44,240 --> 00:18:48,400 dout eight F would apply to that as well. GFCI protection of course, 206 00:18:48,519 --> 00:18:52,559 all receptacles outside GFCI protection. Right. You know the concepts here, So 207 00:18:53,480 --> 00:18:59,240 I think again trying to really understand, and I'll wrap it up here for 208 00:18:59,279 --> 00:19:03,759 the episode. I think it's important to understand that we do not want to 209 00:19:03,880 --> 00:19:08,880 take the term outlet and lock it in because the term outlet can be broadly 210 00:19:10,000 --> 00:19:17,599 used in many for many things. And there's many situations where we create an 211 00:19:17,680 --> 00:19:23,720 outlet and that's where we get power from the building's wiring system to supply utilization 212 00:19:23,799 --> 00:19:29,839 equipment. And so the term outlet is not locked to any one thing like 213 00:19:29,920 --> 00:19:33,720 a box, or any one thing like a cabinet or an enclosure or a 214 00:19:33,759 --> 00:19:40,599 cutout box or disconnecting means or all those type of things. I think it's 215 00:19:40,680 --> 00:19:47,720 the nature of the definition that speaks volumes. Okay, all right, but 216 00:19:47,759 --> 00:19:49,960 that's enough of this episode. I just wanted to thank everybody for listening to 217 00:19:51,000 --> 00:19:56,839 our podcast. For those that are listening to this podcast to disagree with my 218 00:19:56,920 --> 00:20:00,839 position and want to do their own podcast on it, you know, snippet 219 00:20:00,839 --> 00:20:04,480 little pieces of it, because they can't do anything original of their own. 220 00:20:04,839 --> 00:20:08,680 Well, at least I had twenty minutes of your time. Maybe you learned 221 00:20:08,680 --> 00:20:12,200 something today. Okay, all right, until next time, folks, Stay 222 00:20:12,279 --> 00:20:41,400 safe, God bless