WEBVTT 1 00:00:26.440 --> 00:00:30.359 Welcome back to the Path Went Chile for part two of our series about the 2 00:00:30.399 --> 00:00:34.600 Lost Cruises Bowling Alley massacre. Robin, do you want to catch everyone up 3 00:00:34.640 --> 00:00:38.200 on what we talked about in our previous episode. Well, this case took 4 00:00:38.240 --> 00:00:42.280 place in February of nineteen ninety in the town of Los Cruses, New Mexico, 5 00:00:42.399 --> 00:00:45.679 at a bowling alley called the Los Cruses Bowl, and it was a 6 00:00:45.679 --> 00:00:49.439 shooting in which there were a total of seven victims. Started off when the 7 00:00:49.840 --> 00:00:53.719 bowling alley's manager, Stephanie Senak, who was the daughter of the owner, 8 00:00:53.880 --> 00:00:59.240 was working there alongside her twelve year old daughter Melissa Repass and Melissa's good thirteen 9 00:00:59.280 --> 00:01:03.280 year old friend, Amy Hawser, and they were opening up for business about 10 00:01:03.320 --> 00:01:06.680 an hour ahead of time, and they also had the bowling alley snack bar 11 00:01:06.799 --> 00:01:11.159 cook idahole Gean working there. But all of a sudden, two men described 12 00:01:11.159 --> 00:01:15.079 as being Hispanic, ranging from like the thirties to their late forties early fifties, 13 00:01:15.480 --> 00:01:19.959 came in with guns and took all four victims into the office and told 14 00:01:19.000 --> 00:01:22.879 them to lie on the floor while they took money out of the safe. 15 00:01:23.239 --> 00:01:26.280 But around the same time, another employee from the bowling alley named Stephen Turan, 16 00:01:26.760 --> 00:01:30.040 along with his six year old stepdaughter Paula Holgeen and his two year old 17 00:01:30.120 --> 00:01:34.920 daughter, Valerie Tran just happened to walk into the office and the two men 18 00:01:34.959 --> 00:01:38.319 forced them to li on the floor as well, and after they got what 19 00:01:38.319 --> 00:01:42.040 they were looking for, they decided to fire bullets into all seven of the 20 00:01:42.120 --> 00:01:46.079 victims, a total of twenty five shots in total, but remarkably, Melissa 21 00:01:46.079 --> 00:01:48.879 would survived and was able to make it to the phone in order to call 22 00:01:49.000 --> 00:01:52.000 nine to one one. By this point, the men had also set the 23 00:01:52.040 --> 00:01:55.840 office on fire, but the police and fire department arrived at the scene and 24 00:01:55.879 --> 00:02:00.480 got medical attention. It turned out that Amy and Steven and his two daughters 25 00:02:00.560 --> 00:02:05.879 were all pronounced dead at the scene, but Ida, Stephanie, and Melissa 26 00:02:05.959 --> 00:02:09.439 all wound up surviving their wounds, though Stephanie would die nine years later due 27 00:02:09.479 --> 00:02:15.319 to complications from her injuries. It was such a savage crime that everyone was 28 00:02:15.319 --> 00:02:19.240 shocked, but they have never been able to find any suspects who seemed like 29 00:02:19.439 --> 00:02:23.759 promising candidates to be the two killers. There's been speculation that they might have 30 00:02:23.800 --> 00:02:27.840 been searching for something else while they were there, because Even though about between 31 00:02:27.879 --> 00:02:30.719 four to five thousand dollars was taken from the safe, some other money was 32 00:02:30.800 --> 00:02:35.639 left behind, and the surviving victims say that the two men were searching through 33 00:02:35.639 --> 00:02:38.840 the office appeared to be looking for something else, and there have been a 34 00:02:38.840 --> 00:02:42.039 lot of rumors that it could have been drug related because the son of the 35 00:02:42.039 --> 00:02:45.080 owner, r J. Senak, who happened to work as a bartender at 36 00:02:45.080 --> 00:02:47.199 the Bowling Alley. He was rumored to be involved in drugs and would die 37 00:02:47.199 --> 00:02:52.400 of an accidental overdose in nineteen ninety seven. There were also rumors that the 38 00:02:52.439 --> 00:02:55.639 owner, Ron Seenak, might be involved in something illegal and could have known 39 00:02:55.680 --> 00:03:00.080 who the term perpetrators were, but he was thoroughly investigat by law enforcement and 40 00:03:00.080 --> 00:03:05.159 they found nothing in his background to suggest he was involved in anything illegal or 41 00:03:05.199 --> 00:03:08.319 at any knowledge or involvement in the crime. So after thirty years, this 42 00:03:08.439 --> 00:03:13.639 case is still unsolved and the identities of the two shooters is still unknown, 43 00:03:14.000 --> 00:03:17.479 but it's considered to be one of the most senseless and horrific unsolved cold cases 44 00:03:17.719 --> 00:03:23.000 currently on in North America. So on our last episode, we mentioned that 45 00:03:23.039 --> 00:03:27.960 this case was the subject of its own documentary titled A Nightmare and Los crusis 46 00:03:28.280 --> 00:03:30.759 and I consider it to be one of the most downbeat and disturbing true crime 47 00:03:30.800 --> 00:03:36.639 documentaries I've ever seen. I certainly would not recommend it for squeamish viewers, 48 00:03:36.719 --> 00:03:40.360 as it features actual photographs and video footage of the victim's bodies at the murder 49 00:03:40.400 --> 00:03:45.039 scene. But on a lighter note, if any of you listeners are pro 50 00:03:45.080 --> 00:03:49.120 wrestling fans, you might be surprised to learn that the director, Charlie Minn, 51 00:03:49.520 --> 00:03:53.639 briefly worked as an announcer for the World Wrestling Federation during the mid nineteen 52 00:03:53.719 --> 00:03:57.759 nineties, but he has since gone on to direct documentaries about a number of 53 00:03:57.800 --> 00:04:02.240 infamous crimes, including the sand Seedrome McDonald's massacre, and the story of Wanted 54 00:04:02.280 --> 00:04:08.520 Family annihilator Robert Fischer. Unlike most of the unsolved crimes featured on a podcast, 55 00:04:08.840 --> 00:04:12.439 there are still living survivors here who can share their full story about what 56 00:04:12.479 --> 00:04:15.600 happened, though we still don't know the identities of the perpetrators or the full 57 00:04:15.680 --> 00:04:20.079 story behind their motive. One of the most vivid sections of A Nightmare and 58 00:04:20.160 --> 00:04:26.279 Los Cruses is when they play the full audio of Melissa repasses Panic nine one 59 00:04:26.279 --> 00:04:30.079 one call in which he's trying to report what happened while dealing with the excruciating 60 00:04:30.160 --> 00:04:34.639 pain of gunshot wounds to the head. Judging from their interviews, is clear 61 00:04:34.720 --> 00:04:40.319 that Melissa and Ida Holgeen have still not gotten over the trauma of the entire 62 00:04:40.439 --> 00:04:45.519 ordeal. And I think that Ida in particular is plagued with survivor's guilt over 63 00:04:45.560 --> 00:04:48.759 the fact that she got to live while a number of children. I can't 64 00:04:48.800 --> 00:04:54.319 imagine the kind of grief that would come from that. You have not just 65 00:04:54.399 --> 00:04:57.720 the children. These are children, remember that went into the daycare. These 66 00:04:57.759 --> 00:05:02.560 are kiddos who were at the all all the time because their dad worked there, 67 00:05:02.959 --> 00:05:09.720 their family and friends worked there, and so their normal staples in your 68 00:05:09.759 --> 00:05:15.000 life. And you have a father who everyone I'm sure adored there, who 69 00:05:15.040 --> 00:05:17.240 was working to better his life. He was going to try to become a 70 00:05:17.240 --> 00:05:21.399 police officer, and was just about to have his last days at the bowling 71 00:05:21.439 --> 00:05:27.560 alley, and he's on the floor next to you cradling two of his children 72 00:05:27.879 --> 00:05:31.519 and all of them get killed, along with another young person next to you. 73 00:05:32.160 --> 00:05:36.079 The survivors get would be so overwhelming, But just the PTSD and the 74 00:05:36.160 --> 00:05:42.920 imagery that would be stuck with you, the complex PTSD that would never really 75 00:05:43.040 --> 00:05:46.839 leave. I don't think when you not only know the people you cared about 76 00:05:46.920 --> 00:05:51.319 died, but you saw it, and you saw the horrific moment, and 77 00:05:51.360 --> 00:05:56.160 then you also had to deal with your own losses and the own physical and 78 00:05:56.240 --> 00:06:00.120 emotional repercussions as you're trying to heal from your own injuries. So this is 79 00:06:00.199 --> 00:06:05.160 just a overwhelmingly pitiful case that was so senseless. That was the best word 80 00:06:05.160 --> 00:06:09.439 you could have used for what. They didn't even walk away with much money. 81 00:06:10.240 --> 00:06:13.240 And there's also a feeling of fear among the survivors as well, knowing 82 00:06:13.319 --> 00:06:16.120 that the two perpetrators are still out there and that there's always a possibility they 83 00:06:16.120 --> 00:06:19.839 could come after them again, Oh absolutely, and maybe a possibility that I 84 00:06:19.839 --> 00:06:25.240 somehow know them or they're linked to someone that knows me, and so now 85 00:06:25.279 --> 00:06:29.519 that I've lived, what if they come back to finish me off? And 86 00:06:29.600 --> 00:06:34.920 like Idaho, Gien was basically debilitated by her PTSD and Stephanie's SENAC before her 87 00:06:34.959 --> 00:06:41.759 death was essentially a gooraphobic. So these are huge mental health implications, and 88 00:06:41.800 --> 00:06:46.439 that fear that these people would come back and finish what they started clearly haunted 89 00:06:46.480 --> 00:06:50.199 the survivors. It's so unfortunate. At least we have Melissa Repass, who 90 00:06:50.199 --> 00:06:54.519 seems to have been able to move on with her life. We don't know 91 00:06:54.600 --> 00:06:58.319 what she did or did not deal with from a mental health perspective. Just 92 00:06:58.399 --> 00:07:01.199 because she had children and seemed to, you know, forges this path forward 93 00:07:01.279 --> 00:07:06.199 doesn't mean that she didn't deal with what happened at the Los Cruss Bowling Alley 94 00:07:06.279 --> 00:07:12.720 every day of her life. Another vivid moment in the documentary is when they 95 00:07:12.759 --> 00:07:16.560 show live footage of the police approaching Audrey Tehran in the Bowling Alley parking lot 96 00:07:16.800 --> 00:07:21.240 to inform her that her husband and daughters have been shot. Losing an entire 97 00:07:21.360 --> 00:07:27.399 family is one of the most devastating things a person can endure, but what 98 00:07:27.600 --> 00:07:31.639 makes the situation all the more tragic is the horrible luck which allowed this to 99 00:07:31.680 --> 00:07:36.920 happen. The only reason Stephen Tehan brought the two kids to the bowling Alley 100 00:07:36.959 --> 00:07:42.240 to begin with was because he couldn't find a babysitter, and if they had 101 00:07:42.360 --> 00:07:46.000 arrived just a few minutes later, they would not have walked in on the 102 00:07:46.000 --> 00:07:49.560 crime while it was in progress. And of course Another tragic element is that 103 00:07:49.600 --> 00:07:55.319 Stephen had just given his notice to the Bowling Alley and only had three days 104 00:07:55.399 --> 00:07:59.759 left to work there when he was killed. You're right, So Stephen comes 105 00:07:59.759 --> 00:08:03.680 in, remember when the four victims are already lying on the ground of the 106 00:08:03.720 --> 00:08:07.360 office where they've been forced into the office to get access to the safe. 107 00:08:07.680 --> 00:08:13.839 And then Steven just unknowingly brings the two babies in to go see Stephanie. 108 00:08:13.000 --> 00:08:18.120 Remember, they're going to stay at the Bowling Alley daycare. So children were 109 00:08:18.160 --> 00:08:22.120 welcomed there, they were celebrated there. So that morning, when his wife 110 00:08:22.160 --> 00:08:24.040 says, I've got this test at the cosmetology school. I've got to go 111 00:08:24.360 --> 00:08:28.800 work on my career too, he says, no problem, I'll take the 112 00:08:28.879 --> 00:08:31.200 kids to the daycare at the Bowling Alley when I go to work. And 113 00:08:31.440 --> 00:08:35.360 the people we love and care about will love and care about our babies. 114 00:08:35.799 --> 00:08:39.720 And so she gets this phone call to rush to the scene, and she 115 00:08:39.879 --> 00:08:43.919 finds out that not only have they been shot, but that her husband, 116 00:08:45.200 --> 00:08:48.600 who had just graduated and was working towards becoming a police officer, and her 117 00:08:48.639 --> 00:08:54.080 two babies, her whole entire world was executed in a moment. It was 118 00:08:54.759 --> 00:08:58.320 taken away from her and she's learning it. You know that the horror that 119 00:08:58.360 --> 00:09:03.799 takes over and the nightmare that you think this is not real life had to 120 00:09:03.879 --> 00:09:07.840 have just come over her. I can't even fathom watching that scene. I 121 00:09:07.879 --> 00:09:11.080 don't think I could get through this documentary. No. I've heard a lot 122 00:09:11.120 --> 00:09:13.240 of people tell me that that they've tried watching A Nightmare and Lost Cruises, 123 00:09:13.279 --> 00:09:18.919 but it's just too much for them because they show such disturbing, gritty footage. 124 00:09:18.240 --> 00:09:22.200 But I guess if there's a silver lining, it's that Audrey did get 125 00:09:22.240 --> 00:09:26.559 remarried and have two more children. So even though she lost everything, which 126 00:09:26.600 --> 00:09:31.639 would have completely broken some people, she was able to recover and live a 127 00:09:31.679 --> 00:09:35.080 full life, though I'm sure she still struggles with the trauma every day. 128 00:09:35.440 --> 00:09:39.720 As you recall, Stephanie Cenac's brother Steve, stopped by the alley mere minutes 129 00:09:39.759 --> 00:09:45.159 before the crime took place and likely saw the two perpetrators hanging around outside. 130 00:09:45.960 --> 00:09:50.200 One detail I've always been curious about is the fact that the alley's front doors 131 00:09:50.200 --> 00:09:54.039 were unlocked, even though they were not scheduled to open for business for nearly 132 00:09:54.080 --> 00:09:58.200 another hour. It seems like Stephanie just simply forgot to lock them, and 133 00:09:58.279 --> 00:10:01.600 Steve said that he even mentioned this to her when he picked up his backpack 134 00:10:01.639 --> 00:10:05.639 from her office. According to Steve, he could have locked the doors himself 135 00:10:05.639 --> 00:10:07.720 while he was leaving, but he didn't have his keys with him. So 136 00:10:07.759 --> 00:10:11.840 I guess my big question is did the two gunmen know the doors were going 137 00:10:11.840 --> 00:10:16.000 to be unlocked? If they saw Steve leave without locking the door behind him, 138 00:10:16.360 --> 00:10:20.320 then this could have made them realize that they could just walk right in. 139 00:10:20.120 --> 00:10:24.679 But if Stephanie had locked the doors, then what was their original plan? 140 00:10:24.360 --> 00:10:28.159 How would they have convinced anyone to let them inside. I have to 141 00:10:28.200 --> 00:10:33.240 wonder if they initially intended to enter the bowling Alley after it opened for business 142 00:10:33.240 --> 00:10:35.559 at nine am, and it was just dumb luck that they found out the 143 00:10:35.559 --> 00:10:41.480 doors were unlocked and were able to do it earlier. I definitely do not 144 00:10:41.559 --> 00:10:45.039 think that it was just two people passing by going ooh, let's rob the 145 00:10:45.080 --> 00:10:48.039 bowling Alley. I just saw this kid leave and the doors were unlocked. 146 00:10:48.360 --> 00:10:52.120 This is so planned and calculated. But what did happen and what could be 147 00:10:52.240 --> 00:10:56.759 the case is exactly what you just said, Robin. They were watching and 148 00:10:56.840 --> 00:11:01.639 canvassing the bowling alley, making their figuring out what they're doing, and they 149 00:11:01.720 --> 00:11:05.480 see Steve leave, he does not lock the door, and they say, 150 00:11:05.559 --> 00:11:09.080 shoot, let's go now. It's way less difficult when the public's not there. 151 00:11:09.399 --> 00:11:13.679 We're going to go before they open. Now. The reality is is 152 00:11:13.679 --> 00:11:16.919 if that was the case, if they were waiting till nine nine to fifteen, 153 00:11:18.000 --> 00:11:20.080 nine thirty, when the front door should have been unlocked to the public, 154 00:11:20.960 --> 00:11:26.120 it's very possible that when ten, fifteen, twenty people are setting up 155 00:11:26.159 --> 00:11:31.320 to bowl, that they got executed first, and then they forced employees into 156 00:11:31.399 --> 00:11:35.960 the office and killed all of them as well. And so it's scary to 157 00:11:37.000 --> 00:11:41.519 think had those doors not been unlocked, would they have been just as comfortable 158 00:11:41.000 --> 00:11:46.000 killing thirty people forty people. These are the kind of men that I would 159 00:11:46.039 --> 00:11:48.159 say absolutely they wouldn't have cared how many people were in the bowling alley at 160 00:11:48.200 --> 00:11:52.919 the time. If you're willing to kill tiny children, a two year old 161 00:11:54.039 --> 00:11:58.480 baby, then I just don't think that the sheer number of people is going 162 00:11:58.559 --> 00:12:01.720 to be something that's going to deter or you in any way, shape or 163 00:12:01.720 --> 00:12:07.159 form. Like you can argue that those actions are psychopathic to be able to 164 00:12:07.320 --> 00:12:13.039 kill the most innocent. It's like people that kill animals or torture animals or 165 00:12:13.080 --> 00:12:16.480 torture children, kill children. These people, and I mean, I don't 166 00:12:16.480 --> 00:12:20.000 know if one was the dominant and one was the submissive, if one was 167 00:12:20.519 --> 00:12:26.279 kind of leading them and not forcing the other one's hand, but motivating them 168 00:12:26.320 --> 00:12:30.120 to do what needed to be done. They may have had different profiles like 169 00:12:30.279 --> 00:12:37.039 personality wise, but either way, it's absolutely egregious to be annihilating children. 170 00:12:37.200 --> 00:12:39.600 So I agree with you Ash. I think there was no way that even 171 00:12:39.600 --> 00:12:43.200 if there was thirty or forty people, if they thought that they could get 172 00:12:43.240 --> 00:12:46.360 away with it, I think they would have gone through with it. And 173 00:12:46.399 --> 00:12:48.960 you got to think too, that two year old that they executed, that's 174 00:12:48.960 --> 00:12:52.759 a baby that's still being carried by their parents, that likely still wearing a 175 00:12:52.799 --> 00:12:56.720 diaper. I mean, this is a tiny child. And they looked at 176 00:12:56.720 --> 00:13:01.000 that baby's face, that baby was looking at them, and they shot her 177 00:13:01.200 --> 00:13:07.039 in the forehead. That is it's just insanity. It is pure, pure 178 00:13:07.120 --> 00:13:11.480 darkness. Now, one aspect to this story, which rarely gets mentioned, 179 00:13:13.080 --> 00:13:16.759 is that another similar crime took place in Las Crusis less than one month earlier. 180 00:13:18.519 --> 00:13:22.720 On the morning of January fourteenth, nineteen ninety, thirty two year old 181 00:13:22.799 --> 00:13:26.639 Salvador Lozano showed up for his job as an attendant at raised Shell service station 182 00:13:28.399 --> 00:13:33.320 and open for business at eight am, but around two hours later, customers 183 00:13:33.360 --> 00:13:37.879 walked inside to discover Salvator's body on the floor. Someone had bound his hands 184 00:13:37.919 --> 00:13:43.039 behind his back and fired a bullet into the back of his head before stealing 185 00:13:43.080 --> 00:13:46.639 five hundred dollars from the station. Sadly, Salvador's wife gave birth to a 186 00:13:46.639 --> 00:13:52.279 baby girl only two days after he was murdered. This case has not gotten 187 00:13:52.279 --> 00:13:56.919 nearly as much attention as the Bowling Alley massacre, but it also remains unsolved 188 00:13:56.919 --> 00:14:00.919 to this day. At the time, investigators did not believe that there was 189 00:14:00.960 --> 00:14:05.399 any connection between the two crimes, but it's hard to overlook the similarities. 190 00:14:05.039 --> 00:14:09.159 Both of them took place in the early morning hours, around the time the 191 00:14:09.159 --> 00:14:13.039 business opened, and in each case, robbery was involved and the victim was 192 00:14:13.080 --> 00:14:16.840 shot in the head while they were lying on the floor. Several months later, 193 00:14:16.879 --> 00:14:22.399 a man named Robert McDaniel was arrested on forgery charges and claimed that he'd 194 00:14:22.440 --> 00:14:26.840 been present when Salvador Alazana was killed, and then he also knew the identities 195 00:14:26.840 --> 00:14:31.159 of the people who committed the Bowling Alley massacre, but much of the information 196 00:14:31.279 --> 00:14:33.960 McDaniel provided turned out to be false, And as far as I can tell, 197 00:14:35.000 --> 00:14:39.120 if this lead never went anywhere, these sound very similar. You have 198 00:14:39.399 --> 00:14:45.159 somebody who waited for a business to open. They went in and ordered the 199 00:14:45.200 --> 00:14:48.559 owner to get on the floor, They got money from the cash register or 200 00:14:48.600 --> 00:14:52.519 the back office, and then they shoot the individuals that are on the floor 201 00:14:52.559 --> 00:14:56.399 in the head and walk out. And it's only a month later. The 202 00:14:56.440 --> 00:15:01.320 Bowling Alley is much more escalated. Had you committed a crime in the same 203 00:15:01.399 --> 00:15:05.720 town, of the same magnitude, where you kill the person and there's kind 204 00:15:05.720 --> 00:15:11.000 of no heat coming in your direction, you would be even more inclined and 205 00:15:11.080 --> 00:15:13.080 more brazen to say, we've gotten away with it. Let's go. I 206 00:15:13.080 --> 00:15:16.159 don't care if there's seven people there. I don't care if there's forty people 207 00:15:16.200 --> 00:15:18.879 there. Let's do this. I bet there's more money at the Bowling Alley 208 00:15:18.879 --> 00:15:24.440 than there was at the gas station, and I think it is. I 209 00:15:24.480 --> 00:15:28.000 mean, if you're responsible not to say could these two be linked? It 210 00:15:28.120 --> 00:15:31.440 frustrates me to no end when you have people like Robert McDaniel, who say, 211 00:15:31.480 --> 00:15:35.679 oh, I was present and I know who did the Bowling Alley murder, 212 00:15:35.960 --> 00:15:39.480 and he feeds police false information because he stole time and resources that those 213 00:15:39.480 --> 00:15:45.120 officers could have been following the lead that actually could go somewhere. Oh yes, 214 00:15:45.159 --> 00:15:48.720 it seems very obvious that McDaniel was just saying that to maybe help beat 215 00:15:48.720 --> 00:15:52.320 his own forgery charges. It's very common for sometimes arrested criminals to make out 216 00:15:52.360 --> 00:15:58.120 false leads about other unsolved crimes in order to help themselves, so I wouldn't 217 00:15:58.120 --> 00:16:00.960 put much stock into what he says, but I do agree that I don't 218 00:16:00.960 --> 00:16:06.240 think Salvatory A. Lozzano's murder got much attention in the local press at all, 219 00:16:06.679 --> 00:16:08.480 So if this was committed by the same person, I could see them 220 00:16:08.480 --> 00:16:12.320 feeling empowered and thinking, we can do this again, and let's do it 221 00:16:12.360 --> 00:16:17.559 at a bowling alley. But I'm sure that because the Bowling Alley massacre had 222 00:16:17.600 --> 00:16:19.559 a total of seven victims, some of them being children, and got so 223 00:16:19.720 --> 00:16:23.559 much mainstream news, I'm sure they realized that if we do this again, 224 00:16:23.600 --> 00:16:26.440 we can't do it in Las Crusis because it's just going to bring us a 225 00:16:26.440 --> 00:16:32.679 tiny heat doesn't it seem like an odd time, Like, don't you both 226 00:16:32.679 --> 00:16:37.440 think for somebody to decide to rob a place, you're robbing an establishment, 227 00:16:37.600 --> 00:16:44.320 be it the shelf, service station or the bowling alley in the morning hours, 228 00:16:44.600 --> 00:16:48.960 how do you know that they haven't deposited the money from the day before. 229 00:16:48.120 --> 00:16:52.639 You would think at the end of the evening, when they're closing, 230 00:16:52.679 --> 00:16:56.759 before they've gone and done a bank deposit, would be the best time to 231 00:16:56.799 --> 00:17:00.240 strike, would it not? Exactly? Yeah, from my experience work in 232 00:17:00.279 --> 00:17:03.799 retail, it was common practice for the manager to drop off the knight's deposit 233 00:17:03.839 --> 00:17:07.599 at the bank at closing so that there wouldn't be all that much money in 234 00:17:07.640 --> 00:17:11.799 the store when they opened the following morning. And I recently did a Trail 235 00:17:11.839 --> 00:17:18.119 Went Cold episode about this about the Lane Bryant shooting, which was another mass 236 00:17:18.200 --> 00:17:22.000 murder which took place at a Lane Bryant clothing store in Illinois in two thousand 237 00:17:22.039 --> 00:17:25.440 and eight, And it was the same type of thing where the perpetrator came 238 00:17:25.480 --> 00:17:27.759 in in the early morning hours, right after the opened, and there just 239 00:17:27.880 --> 00:17:32.799 wasn't that much money on the premises, so they killed all these people for 240 00:17:32.880 --> 00:17:36.559 a very small take. So it always is weird to me when people decide 241 00:17:36.599 --> 00:17:41.279 to perform robberies that early in the morning. So, on one hand, 242 00:17:41.359 --> 00:17:45.839 I could see how the same person or persons who shot Salvador A Lozzano might 243 00:17:45.839 --> 00:17:49.920 be responsible for what happened at Las Crus's Bowl. It's possible that the perpetrators 244 00:17:49.920 --> 00:17:53.440 were planning a robbery and only expected one or two employees to be on the 245 00:17:53.440 --> 00:17:59.519 premises. According to the surviving victims, the gunman seemed flustered by the fact 246 00:17:59.559 --> 00:18:02.559 that so many people were there, and I'm sure they must have really been 247 00:18:02.599 --> 00:18:07.400 taken by surprise when Stephen Turan and his two girls came walking in. But 248 00:18:07.480 --> 00:18:11.279 even though they took between four thousand and five thousand dollars from the safe, 249 00:18:11.640 --> 00:18:15.000 the fact that they still left some money behind makes me think that robbery was 250 00:18:15.000 --> 00:18:19.400 not the primary motive for this crime. The two men looked through some cabinets 251 00:18:19.400 --> 00:18:22.960 before they even opened the safe. They gave off the impression that they were 252 00:18:23.000 --> 00:18:27.880 searching for something else and became frustrated when they could not find it. I 253 00:18:27.920 --> 00:18:32.839 know there's been speculation that the perpetrators were searching for a stash of drugs, 254 00:18:33.160 --> 00:18:37.160 which I'm sure was fueled by the rumors the Bowling Alley's bartender, RJ Senak 255 00:18:37.519 --> 00:18:44.240 was heavily involved in drugs and performed drug transactions on the premises. Unfortunately, 256 00:18:44.240 --> 00:18:48.839 there was virtually no information out there about RJ other than what was presented in 257 00:18:48.880 --> 00:18:53.160 The Nightmare and Los Cruse's documentary. The police thought he seemed very distant when 258 00:18:53.240 --> 00:18:57.039 questioned about the murders, but they couldn't find any evidence to implicate him, 259 00:18:57.319 --> 00:19:03.079 and he died of an apparent drug over seven years later. If RJ was 260 00:19:03.160 --> 00:19:06.920 involved with drugs, I guess it's possible that the two men were expecting him 261 00:19:06.960 --> 00:19:11.240 to be at the Bowling Alley that morning and became frustrated when they discovered he 262 00:19:11.400 --> 00:19:15.799 wasn't. But if they originally went there searching for something like a secret stash 263 00:19:15.839 --> 00:19:19.119 of drugs, it's surprising that they wouldn't even attempt to ask Stephanie or anyone 264 00:19:19.160 --> 00:19:22.680 else where. It was that was gonna be my question for you, Robin. 265 00:19:22.799 --> 00:19:29.240 Do we know if what conversation was had or was the only communication basically, 266 00:19:29.279 --> 00:19:33.359 get in the office, get on the floor, keep your mouth shut, 267 00:19:33.480 --> 00:19:37.240 and that's about all they dialogue about. Because if not, were their 268 00:19:37.359 --> 00:19:41.759 questions like or were their statements when the father walks in with these two kids, 269 00:19:41.759 --> 00:19:45.480 like oh you know, oh crap, Well we're doing it still. 270 00:19:45.759 --> 00:19:49.319 I mean, were there any kind of comments that alluded to the mindset of 271 00:19:49.359 --> 00:19:55.279 these people or what their intent was, or was it very formulaic and calculated 272 00:19:55.319 --> 00:19:59.480 in what they said to these people? Yeah, that's what I From what 273 00:19:59.559 --> 00:20:03.000 I can tell from the surviving victims, the dialogue was very limited and it 274 00:20:03.039 --> 00:20:06.240 was nothing more than just simple orders like get on the floor, open the 275 00:20:06.279 --> 00:20:08.240 safe, get in the office. And they didn't ask any questions, so 276 00:20:08.680 --> 00:20:12.680 if they were searching for something, they didn't try to acquire for Stephanie and 277 00:20:12.720 --> 00:20:17.000 say stuff like where's the rest of the money or where's the drugs? So 278 00:20:17.039 --> 00:20:22.720 that's what makes it all the more bizarre. Was this bar and restaurant or 279 00:20:22.880 --> 00:20:26.880 was it just like a bar with alcohol? I think it was just a 280 00:20:26.920 --> 00:20:30.799 bar with alcohol, because I know they had a snack bar there where Ida 281 00:20:30.880 --> 00:20:33.359 worked as the cook. So I have a feeling that it was probably just 282 00:20:33.400 --> 00:20:37.559 a snack bar which serves some food and the bar was completely separate. So 283 00:20:37.880 --> 00:20:41.839 if that is the case, I think it would be strange to assume that 284 00:20:41.960 --> 00:20:48.279 prior to nine am that RJ would be there, because if it's a bar 285 00:20:48.400 --> 00:20:52.279 that just serves alcohol. I don't know what the liquor laws are in New 286 00:20:52.319 --> 00:20:56.240 Mexico, but I would think at nine AM, you're likely not allowed to 287 00:20:56.240 --> 00:20:59.680 serve liquor, and if you wanted to have a non alcoholic beverage, you'd 288 00:20:59.680 --> 00:21:03.839 likely go to the snack bar. Correct. Yeah, that sounds like a 289 00:21:03.880 --> 00:21:07.359 good point. I can't see a bowling alley serving alcohol that early in the 290 00:21:07.400 --> 00:21:11.759 morning. And of course I have a feeling that if they were specifically looking 291 00:21:11.759 --> 00:21:15.359 for RJ, they would have asked Stephanie or the other employees, where's RJ. 292 00:21:15.559 --> 00:21:18.960 But I see no indication that they did that. There's always been suspicion 293 00:21:19.160 --> 00:21:23.640 that the crime is somehow related to RJ's father, Ron Senak, who owned 294 00:21:23.680 --> 00:21:29.200 Los Cruse's Bowl and was aware in Arizona when this took place. Now, 295 00:21:29.240 --> 00:21:33.119 before I talk any more about Ron, I should preface this by stating he 296 00:21:33.319 --> 00:21:37.160 was thoroughly investigated by law enforcement, and one investigator even stated that he was 297 00:21:37.240 --> 00:21:42.119 quote put under a microscope and they couldn't find anything to suggest that he was 298 00:21:42.200 --> 00:21:48.920 involved in the murders or any illegal activities. But if you watch Ron's interviews 299 00:21:48.920 --> 00:21:52.160 in a Nightmare and Loss Crusis, it's easy to believe that there's still something 300 00:21:52.200 --> 00:21:56.319 off about this guy. He surprised a lot of people by deciding to reopen 301 00:21:56.319 --> 00:22:00.319 the alley for business only one week after the crime, but the way he 302 00:22:00.440 --> 00:22:04.680 tells it, there was a big demand for it. Ron claims that a 303 00:22:04.799 --> 00:22:10.400 church league bowling tournament had been scheduled for Los Cruse's Bowl two days after the 304 00:22:10.400 --> 00:22:14.880 shootings, and the people involved became quite upset when they discovered that the place 305 00:22:14.960 --> 00:22:18.279 was closed. I mean, it would be one thing if Ron was just 306 00:22:18.319 --> 00:22:22.200 some greedy business owner who didn't want to lose money over a crime taking place 307 00:22:22.240 --> 00:22:26.160 at his establishment. But his own daughter and granddaughter were shot, and as 308 00:22:26.200 --> 00:22:30.599 you know, Stephanie Seenak died in nineteen ninety nine due to complications from her 309 00:22:30.599 --> 00:22:34.400 injuries, and by all accounts, she lived the rest of her life in 310 00:22:34.519 --> 00:22:40.200 constant fear and rarely left her home because the men who shot her were still 311 00:22:40.240 --> 00:22:45.119 out there somewhere. During the documentary, some people stated that one of the 312 00:22:45.160 --> 00:22:48.000 hardest things for Stephanie was that the rest of her family just seemed to have 313 00:22:48.079 --> 00:22:52.480 a get over it and move on attitude and did not fully grasp the trauma 314 00:22:52.519 --> 00:22:57.960 that she was experiencing. So maybe the Scenacs were just a very unemotional family 315 00:22:57.960 --> 00:23:03.440 in general, which might explain why Ron comes across as rather cold during his 316 00:23:03.519 --> 00:23:07.039 interviews. But I think one of the most troubling things about Ron is that 317 00:23:07.079 --> 00:23:12.759 he makes a couple statements in the documentary which are directly contradicted by investigators. 318 00:23:14.519 --> 00:23:18.160 For example, Ron claims that the police told him that the shooting was a 319 00:23:18.240 --> 00:23:22.319 random crime, but then cut to one of the detectives who denies ever, 320 00:23:22.359 --> 00:23:26.200 telling Ron that since the police had no idea if it was random or not. 321 00:23:26.240 --> 00:23:30.160 Ron also says that in the week following the massacre, he visited the 322 00:23:30.160 --> 00:23:34.400 police department every day to check on the progress of the investigation, but they 323 00:23:34.400 --> 00:23:40.279 claimed that this isn't true and that they always had to contact Ron themselves whenever 324 00:23:40.279 --> 00:23:44.559 they wanted to speak with him. Perhaps Ron is just remembering things incorrectly, 325 00:23:44.880 --> 00:23:48.440 but I can see why people would get the impression that he might be hiding 326 00:23:48.480 --> 00:23:53.680 something. It seems like either he just lacks some common sense or maybe apathy, 327 00:23:53.920 --> 00:23:59.400 or that he just doesn't make good decisions. Because think about Ron and 328 00:23:59.440 --> 00:24:02.759 his poor family right, like his son struggles with drugs and Dad's like, 329 00:24:02.839 --> 00:24:04.920 you know what, son, you have an addiction problem. I'm gonna have 330 00:24:04.960 --> 00:24:08.920 you run the bar at my bowling alley. Like not a smart decision. 331 00:24:10.400 --> 00:24:14.200 Ron wants to open up for the church tournament. A lot of people would 332 00:24:14.200 --> 00:24:18.319 say, like, oh, that's not the best emotional decision. But again, 333 00:24:18.359 --> 00:24:21.359 we've talked about how grief might have played a role there. We're saying 334 00:24:21.440 --> 00:24:25.160 I will open this establishment. It is a loving family place, and that's 335 00:24:25.160 --> 00:24:29.599 what it's going to continue to be represented as. But I doubt the church 336 00:24:29.680 --> 00:24:33.000 goers were like, listen, you don't open those doors. After this baby 337 00:24:33.079 --> 00:24:36.240 was murdered in this place, I'm gonna be so mad at you. I 338 00:24:36.279 --> 00:24:41.160 think people would understand, especially when they're also preparing funerals for these people. 339 00:24:41.519 --> 00:24:45.240 But it does just seem like Ron also might just be off, doesn't manage 340 00:24:45.240 --> 00:24:49.759 money well, makes bad decisions, might not be monitoring problems with his own 341 00:24:49.799 --> 00:24:53.319 family and business the way he should be. So could it be sinister, 342 00:24:53.480 --> 00:24:59.039 sure? Could it also just be someone who lacks some of the common sense 343 00:24:59.079 --> 00:25:00.920 you would expect it so you see that come through on a documentary. I 344 00:25:00.920 --> 00:25:04.359 think that's possible. Too. That's what I think as well, and it 345 00:25:04.400 --> 00:25:07.880 makes me feel just so horrible for Stephanie because when you see Ron interviewed, 346 00:25:07.920 --> 00:25:11.839 you think this is not the guy I would want to be my father in 347 00:25:11.880 --> 00:25:17.039 trying to take care of me while I'm recovering from a debilitating shooting that has 348 00:25:17.240 --> 00:25:21.359 essentially turned me into an agoraphobic. And like everyone said, that was one 349 00:25:21.359 --> 00:25:22.839 of the worst things with her to deal with the trauma is that it does 350 00:25:22.880 --> 00:25:26.359 not sound like she got a lot of support from her family, who probably 351 00:25:26.400 --> 00:25:30.240 just wanted her to get back to work at the bowling alley or something and 352 00:25:30.359 --> 00:25:33.839 just did not realize that she is just incapable of doing that because of all 353 00:25:33.880 --> 00:25:38.480 the trauma. Now here's a weird coincidence. At around six am on March 354 00:25:38.640 --> 00:25:44.039 fourth, nineteen ninety one, a fifty five year old custodian named James Chapman 355 00:25:44.119 --> 00:25:48.480 was cleaning the Ideal Lane's Bowling Alley in Rio Rancho, New Mexico, when 356 00:25:48.480 --> 00:25:52.440 he was fatally shot in the head during an attempt at burglary. Police did 357 00:25:52.519 --> 00:25:56.359 not believe the crime was connected to the Los Cruses massacre, and a career 358 00:25:56.440 --> 00:26:02.400 criminal named Carl Percy Libernois was eventually charged convicted of first degree murder and aggravated 359 00:26:02.440 --> 00:26:06.720 burglary. Well, it turned out that before he built Los Cruse's Bowl, 360 00:26:07.200 --> 00:26:11.920 Ron Senak had also owned Ideal Lanes, as the business license was listed under 361 00:26:11.920 --> 00:26:15.240 his name until nineteen eighty five, before its ownership was transferred to a financial 362 00:26:15.279 --> 00:26:21.519 institution by a federal bankruptcy court. Again, the two separate shootings are nothing 363 00:26:21.559 --> 00:26:25.960 more than a coincidence, but it's interesting how Ron ran into financial problems with 364 00:26:26.079 --> 00:26:30.720 two separate bowling alleys. And here's one more interesting anecdote. In July of 365 00:26:30.799 --> 00:26:36.880 nineteen ninety two, after Los Cruse's Bull was bought out and renamed Sun Lanes, 366 00:26:37.279 --> 00:26:41.759 a forty four year old civilian Otero County Sheriff's employee named Roy Nichols fatally 367 00:26:41.799 --> 00:26:45.559 shot his twenty four year old ex girlfriend, Vicky Dean to death in the 368 00:26:45.559 --> 00:26:51.000 Bowling Alley parking lot before turning the gun on himself in a murder suicide. 369 00:26:51.599 --> 00:26:56.240 So it's pretty crazy that so many shootings seem to take place at bowling alleys 370 00:26:56.279 --> 00:27:00.880 in New Mexico. Oh, it's tragic, and it's very busy are but 371 00:27:00.039 --> 00:27:07.240 is I find it really interesting that Ron had filed for bankruptcy before or was 372 00:27:07.279 --> 00:27:11.440 actually taken to court because he's not paying the bills and the least and the 373 00:27:11.480 --> 00:27:15.039 things that he needs to pay for Bowling Alley number one, And then you 374 00:27:15.079 --> 00:27:21.240 see the same thing happen where he falls into financial trouble and he loses the 375 00:27:21.279 --> 00:27:26.119 Bowling Alley. What a month after these murders take place. It does make 376 00:27:26.200 --> 00:27:30.519 you just question what kind of poor decisions could he have made, What kind 377 00:27:30.559 --> 00:27:33.000 of business enemies could he have made, What kind of promises could he have 378 00:27:33.039 --> 00:27:40.799 made to people that might have gotten him surrounded by individuals capable of such brutality. 379 00:27:41.880 --> 00:27:45.640 It's not a random crime. We know that there was planning, There 380 00:27:45.720 --> 00:27:49.119 was confidence by these men who went in. Now, is it planning and 381 00:27:49.160 --> 00:27:52.960 confidence because they've pulled it off before, like with the gas station attendant or 382 00:27:52.960 --> 00:27:59.920 the owner of the little quick mart. Possibly, but it also feels very 383 00:28:00.119 --> 00:28:03.160 much like they knew a lot about that Bowling Alley and they had something specific 384 00:28:03.200 --> 00:28:07.400 that they wanted to accomplish that day. Yeah, we talked about this how 385 00:28:07.519 --> 00:28:11.200 Rod may not have been knowingly involved in anything legal, but he does come 386 00:28:11.240 --> 00:28:15.599 across as someone who does not have a lot of common sense and good decision 387 00:28:15.640 --> 00:28:18.319 making skills when it comes to running a business. So it is quite interesting 388 00:28:18.319 --> 00:28:22.640 to learn that he had another bowling alley go bankrupt only five years earlier, 389 00:28:23.039 --> 00:28:26.200 and we even speculated that this may have been one of the reasons that he 390 00:28:26.319 --> 00:28:32.680 reopened Sunlight Las Cruce's Bowl so soon after the massacre, because he needed the 391 00:28:32.720 --> 00:28:36.640 money badly and needed the income to come in. So it could be a 392 00:28:36.680 --> 00:28:41.079 thing where he may not have technically done anything wrong, but his bad decision 393 00:28:41.119 --> 00:28:45.200 making could have done something to anger the wrong people. And I don't think 394 00:28:45.200 --> 00:28:49.039 it's outside the realm of possibility to believe that he could be hiding something, 395 00:28:49.759 --> 00:28:55.880 just based on the fact that he seems to fabricate certain details. Like Ashley 396 00:28:55.920 --> 00:28:59.759 had said after we'd mentioned about the church group not being able to do their 397 00:29:00.319 --> 00:29:03.599 tournament, and he said that they were upset. I don't believe, for 398 00:29:03.720 --> 00:29:07.279 any like, by any stretch of the imagination, that any church group is 399 00:29:07.319 --> 00:29:11.799 going to push ahead to want to have a bowling tournament at this place where 400 00:29:11.839 --> 00:29:15.079 a massacre just took place, and then secondly that if they can't have this 401 00:29:15.200 --> 00:29:19.519 tournament, that they're going to be very upset. Two days after this happened, 402 00:29:19.880 --> 00:29:26.279 knowing that the owner's daughter and granddaughter were shot. That just doesn't compute 403 00:29:26.319 --> 00:29:30.160 for me. I think it's a full on fabrication in my opinion. Allegedly, 404 00:29:30.720 --> 00:29:34.880 and then the situation where he's saying that he contacted the police NonStop every 405 00:29:34.960 --> 00:29:38.119 day to see what was going on. We learned that that's not the case. 406 00:29:38.559 --> 00:29:44.440 And then the fact that he said that the police officer had said that 407 00:29:44.680 --> 00:29:48.640 they had to contact him. So it's it just feels like he's not giving 408 00:29:48.759 --> 00:29:53.400 us an accurate rendition of the way that events are playing out, and he's 409 00:29:53.440 --> 00:30:00.599 overstating his involvement. So for us to then believe that there's a p that 410 00:30:00.799 --> 00:30:04.119 he's holding on to some information or he's hiding something, Not that it would 411 00:30:04.160 --> 00:30:10.759 necessarily incriminate him, but potentially he may have done some things, angered some 412 00:30:10.920 --> 00:30:15.400 people, made some poor decisions and that might have been responsible for what happened. 413 00:30:15.880 --> 00:30:18.359 Anything is possible. And also his son RJ, who died of a 414 00:30:18.440 --> 00:30:22.000 drug over those years later, Like maybe he knew information about something RJE was 415 00:30:22.039 --> 00:30:26.880 involved in, but he wanted to protect his son and was not forthcoming about 416 00:30:26.920 --> 00:30:30.200 it, or maybe he was just in denial that his son had some addiction 417 00:30:30.319 --> 00:30:36.359 issues. The possibilities are just pretty endless here. I know the police never 418 00:30:36.400 --> 00:30:41.440 found any evidence to incriminate Ron Senak, and it's possible that he legitimately doesn't 419 00:30:41.480 --> 00:30:45.480 know anything, But I still wonder if the crime was a result of something 420 00:30:45.519 --> 00:30:49.400 he was connected with. The two gunmen who entered Los Cruse's bull may have 421 00:30:49.440 --> 00:30:52.960 been expecting Rond to be there and were unaware that he left on a weekend 422 00:30:53.000 --> 00:30:57.839 trip to Arizona. There's been speculation that the crime was some sort of professional 423 00:30:57.960 --> 00:31:03.559 hit intended to send a message to the Senac family, which is why Stephanie 424 00:31:03.599 --> 00:31:07.039 and Melissa were shot. This theory is supported by the fact that some witnesses, 425 00:31:07.200 --> 00:31:11.680 including Idaho Gien, believe they saw these two men frequenting the alley on 426 00:31:11.720 --> 00:31:15.839 a prior occasion, and they did not appear to be doing anything but sitting 427 00:31:15.920 --> 00:31:21.319 there and staring at everybody, as if they were casing the place. The 428 00:31:21.400 --> 00:31:25.640 perpetrators also set fire to the desk in the office in an apparent attempt to 429 00:31:25.640 --> 00:31:29.720 destroy evidence, which is not the sort of thing that you'll usually find if 430 00:31:29.759 --> 00:31:33.000 the motive for the crime was simply robbery, if Melissa had not been able 431 00:31:33.000 --> 00:31:37.640 to make her phone call the nine one one. It's possible the fire would 432 00:31:37.640 --> 00:31:41.240 have completely engulfed the office and killed everyone there, and without the accounts of 433 00:31:41.279 --> 00:31:45.720 the survivors, people might look at this case in a much different light. 434 00:31:45.759 --> 00:31:51.240 For sure. I also think you have to again pay attention to the ages 435 00:31:51.279 --> 00:31:55.160 of the perpetrators. These were older men. These were people that were described 436 00:31:55.160 --> 00:31:57.680 in their thirties and forties, maybe forties to fifties. These were not young 437 00:31:57.720 --> 00:32:04.279 teenagers doing some chaotic robbery that they kind of got overwhelmed and killed people. 438 00:32:04.680 --> 00:32:07.680 They knew what they were doing. They had clear instruction of what they needed 439 00:32:07.680 --> 00:32:12.240 people to do. Get in the office, open the safe, lie on 440 00:32:12.319 --> 00:32:15.079 the floor, and when they got what they wanted, they executed these people 441 00:32:15.079 --> 00:32:19.839 by shooting them in the head and even shooting a child who was looking at 442 00:32:19.839 --> 00:32:23.319 them. And so for me, it makes sense that these are careered criminals. 443 00:32:23.319 --> 00:32:28.960 These are people who understand that one they're capable of it, that they 444 00:32:29.000 --> 00:32:31.880 can get away with it, that they're entitled to do what they want and 445 00:32:31.920 --> 00:32:37.519 can take a life with the drop of a of a bullet in their head. 446 00:32:37.599 --> 00:32:40.319 I mean, it's insane to me so to think could they have been 447 00:32:40.400 --> 00:32:46.440 professional hitmen or people hired to kill these individuals. I think that's very possible. 448 00:32:46.799 --> 00:32:51.559 I think that it is very possible. They wanted revenge, They wanted 449 00:32:51.599 --> 00:32:54.240 to make a point, They wanted to send a message either Ron or his 450 00:32:54.480 --> 00:33:00.640 son. Nothing in the women's background has this idea that they associated with ced 451 00:33:00.799 --> 00:33:04.839 people. But dad and son have a different background. They seem to have 452 00:33:05.000 --> 00:33:08.759 a questionable behavior, and so the fact that these men were seen prior to 453 00:33:08.799 --> 00:33:15.519 the crime casing the place and sitting back awkwardly watching family's bowl, watching employees' 454 00:33:15.559 --> 00:33:21.480 behavior, it definitely signals something of a planned attack that was meant to say 455 00:33:21.519 --> 00:33:27.720 something and to leave no survivors that could identify who they were. However, 456 00:33:27.799 --> 00:33:30.640 if the crime was a professional hit designed to send some sort of message to 457 00:33:30.720 --> 00:33:36.119 Ron Scenac, it was a very sloppy one. Even though they fired around 458 00:33:36.160 --> 00:33:39.119 twenty five shots to the victims, the perpetrators did not check to make sure 459 00:33:39.160 --> 00:33:44.559 everyone was dead, and three of the victims wound up surviving. Also, 460 00:33:44.680 --> 00:33:47.400 if this was some sort of hit against the Senac family, it's surprising they 461 00:33:47.400 --> 00:33:52.759 would have let Steve Senak leave before they went inside. As murdering the owner's 462 00:33:52.799 --> 00:33:57.799 son definitely fits a revenge scheme. While I believe that godmen were always planning 463 00:33:57.839 --> 00:34:00.920 to murder everyone no matter what, I think, the sloppiness of this crime 464 00:34:01.079 --> 00:34:05.319 is due largely to the fact that they had to deal with a lot more 465 00:34:05.400 --> 00:34:09.400 people than they expected and were caught completely off guard when Stephen Turan and his 466 00:34:09.480 --> 00:34:15.079 two daughters came walking into the office. Whatever the case, I still believe 467 00:34:15.119 --> 00:34:19.199 the main reason for committing this crime is because they wanted something else from that 468 00:34:19.280 --> 00:34:23.159 bowling alley besides the money inside the safe. Otherwise, I see no reason 469 00:34:23.159 --> 00:34:27.719 why they would have left some of that money behind. Otherwise, I see 470 00:34:27.719 --> 00:34:30.119 no reason why they would have left some of that money behind. I think 471 00:34:30.119 --> 00:34:35.760 there is still definitely a big piece of the puzzle missing here. I think 472 00:34:35.800 --> 00:34:39.079 there could be. Is it possible too that the twenty five shots? Wow, 473 00:34:39.159 --> 00:34:42.920 you're right. If they're professional hitmen, you almost think they would know 474 00:34:42.920 --> 00:34:45.760 how to shoot and kill with a single bullet or two. But is it 475 00:34:45.800 --> 00:34:51.039 possible that twenty five shots is all they had to fire off? That is 476 00:34:51.079 --> 00:34:52.559 true. Yeah, we don't have no how many bullets they had in their 477 00:34:52.559 --> 00:34:55.239 guns, but it could be a thing. Is that they just fired everything 478 00:34:55.239 --> 00:35:00.800 they had, and even though some of the victims were not dead yet, 479 00:35:00.920 --> 00:35:02.639 they figured, well, we can don't have anything else to shoot them with, 480 00:35:02.760 --> 00:35:07.480 Let's just start a fire and hopefully they'll be engulfed when the fire completely 481 00:35:07.559 --> 00:35:12.360 destroys the office. But they may not have expected that Melissa would have enough 482 00:35:12.400 --> 00:35:15.280 wherewithal to get back up and call nine one one. I think if you 483 00:35:15.360 --> 00:35:20.280 shot them in the head, your idea would be there at least incapacitated enough 484 00:35:20.760 --> 00:35:23.159 not to be able to get away from smoke, inhalation and all the things 485 00:35:23.199 --> 00:35:27.599 that would come from a fire in golfing that office. Maybe that was a 486 00:35:27.639 --> 00:35:30.239 thought, But then again, remember we all just talked about the fact that 487 00:35:30.320 --> 00:35:35.199 they also could have planned to shoot when the bowling alley opened, which would 488 00:35:35.239 --> 00:35:38.239 have meant they probably were prepared with more bullets, because what if there was 489 00:35:38.280 --> 00:35:42.960 a family bullying? What if there were fifteen people that walked in when the 490 00:35:42.960 --> 00:35:49.320 door's opened. There's been some confusion about whether the two gunmen brought vehicles to 491 00:35:49.360 --> 00:35:54.079 the scene. Some early newspaper articles about this case say that the perpetrators may 492 00:35:54.079 --> 00:36:00.000 be driving a four wheel drive vehicle, possibly a van, but this detail 493 00:36:00.159 --> 00:36:04.480 is not mentioned in A Nightmare and Los Crusus, or most recent accounts of 494 00:36:04.519 --> 00:36:08.280 the case, so I'm not sure how legitimate this information is. There are 495 00:36:08.320 --> 00:36:14.280 apparently eyewitness accounts to the two men running across Amador Street, and as far 496 00:36:14.320 --> 00:36:17.960 as I know, Steve Senak did not report seeing any additional vehicles parked near 497 00:36:19.000 --> 00:36:22.119 the alley when he was there. I would be really curious to know if 498 00:36:22.159 --> 00:36:27.039 the perpetrators had access to a vehicle that morning, which would have allowed them 499 00:36:27.039 --> 00:36:31.000 to flee Lost Crusus. I know investigators spoke to a woman named Irma Tierna 500 00:36:31.480 --> 00:36:36.159 who claimed that she harbored too men at her place following the shooting, and 501 00:36:36.239 --> 00:36:39.400 they were right under the police's noses while they were searching for them. But 502 00:36:39.519 --> 00:36:45.440 even though she passed a polygraph test, Tirina later recounted her story and died 503 00:36:45.440 --> 00:36:49.039 of a drug overdose. And this lead hit a dead end, much like 504 00:36:49.079 --> 00:36:52.679 the drug angle with RJ. Senak. The sole source of Irma Tirrena's story 505 00:36:52.800 --> 00:36:58.280 is a Nightmare and Los Crusus, so we don't have any additional information about 506 00:36:58.280 --> 00:37:02.280 her. Truthfully, unless they had no access to transportation, I would be 507 00:37:02.360 --> 00:37:07.599 really surprised if the gunmen remained in Los cruises following the shooting. They had 508 00:37:07.639 --> 00:37:12.639 to know the committee a crime in which they shot seven people, four of 509 00:37:12.679 --> 00:37:15.440 them children, was going to bring a ton of heat the likes of which 510 00:37:15.480 --> 00:37:20.320 the area had never seen before. I know the police set up roadblocks to 511 00:37:20.440 --> 00:37:23.360 check everyone who was leaving town, but this did not take place until around 512 00:37:23.440 --> 00:37:28.480 two thirty pm, so the perpetrators already had a six hour head start. 513 00:37:28.800 --> 00:37:32.119 Los Crusis is only forty five miles from the Mexican border, so they would 514 00:37:32.159 --> 00:37:36.880 have had more than enough time to flee the country before the manhunt started. 515 00:37:37.679 --> 00:37:39.599 For all we know, both of these men may have spent the past three 516 00:37:39.719 --> 00:37:45.360 decades living in Mexico and never returned to the US. This would explain why 517 00:37:45.440 --> 00:37:49.679 law enforcement had no success in tracking them down or identifying them, even though 518 00:37:49.679 --> 00:37:53.159 the composite sketches of their faces had been plastered everywhere. Oh, that's very 519 00:37:53.239 --> 00:37:57.960 possible. I didn't realize the location of where this city was located. But 520 00:37:58.400 --> 00:38:00.880 you're right. If they're only forty five miles from the Mexican border, that 521 00:38:01.039 --> 00:38:05.199 can't take more than an hour an hour and fifteen minutes to get to the 522 00:38:05.239 --> 00:38:09.840 Mexican border. They're Hispanic men, so it's possible that that's their hometown is 523 00:38:09.880 --> 00:38:15.679 in Mexico, that they have family in Mexico, that they have a place 524 00:38:15.719 --> 00:38:19.800 that's safe and can harbor them there where they can just disappear and come home 525 00:38:19.880 --> 00:38:22.000 and no one knows what happened. And you know, that's over in the 526 00:38:22.079 --> 00:38:25.440 United States, that's in New Mexico, and we're here in Mexico. Right, 527 00:38:25.440 --> 00:38:29.360 it's just these two separate worlds, even though it's only forty five miles 528 00:38:29.400 --> 00:38:32.679 apart. So for me, I would think that these two men had a 529 00:38:32.760 --> 00:38:37.559 car, had a vehicle, but that it would have been parked a couple 530 00:38:37.599 --> 00:38:43.079 blocks away or behind a few establishments away from the bowling Alley. They wouldn't 531 00:38:43.119 --> 00:38:45.360 be as brazen. I don't think to pull up to the front of the 532 00:38:45.360 --> 00:38:50.920 bowling alley, park their car and then go in. Remember they're scene running 533 00:38:50.960 --> 00:38:57.280 across the street. I'm assuming they strategically placed their car and that's how they 534 00:38:57.320 --> 00:39:01.280 eventually got away. The police doing a roadblock two thirty I just don't think 535 00:39:01.280 --> 00:39:05.719 you had any hope of that being successful. It's too far gone. Even 536 00:39:05.719 --> 00:39:08.800 if these men were on foot six hours later, they're sixty miles away, 537 00:39:08.880 --> 00:39:13.199 you know, I mean they're jogging, running, doing something. Yea, 538 00:39:13.199 --> 00:39:15.800 there at least they could have probably gone to the border by two thirty, 539 00:39:15.920 --> 00:39:21.320 So I just I think they had to have a vehicle somewhere close. Yeah, 540 00:39:21.320 --> 00:39:23.840 I do agree. It's fairly common practice sometimes for robbers to part their 541 00:39:23.840 --> 00:39:28.559 cars away from the location where they're committing their crime, just in case any 542 00:39:28.599 --> 00:39:32.320 witnesses come by and can't identify their vehicle. And back in nineteen ninety, 543 00:39:32.360 --> 00:39:37.159 border security was a lot more lax, and two Hispanic looking men just driving 544 00:39:37.199 --> 00:39:43.039 across the border into Mexico is not going to raise any red flags, particularly 545 00:39:43.079 --> 00:39:45.920 since word about the shooting did not spread for several hours. So yeah, 546 00:39:46.039 --> 00:39:50.920 they somehow managed to make it to the border before they started circulating their sketches, 547 00:39:51.079 --> 00:39:53.679 and they remain managed to remain under the radar, Then you can understand 548 00:39:53.719 --> 00:40:00.360 why they've never been caught. And here's a pretty horrifying thought. If these 549 00:40:00.400 --> 00:40:02.480 men were capable of firing a bullet into the head of a two year old 550 00:40:02.519 --> 00:40:07.199 girl, then they were certainly capable of committing other horrific crimes. So who 551 00:40:07.239 --> 00:40:12.639 knows what else they may have done and gotten away with After all this time, 552 00:40:12.800 --> 00:40:15.480 we can't even be one hundred percent certain that the perpetrators are still alive, 553 00:40:15.960 --> 00:40:20.360 especially since one of them was described as being in his late forties or 554 00:40:20.360 --> 00:40:23.800 early fifties. But the good news is that this story has continually remained in 555 00:40:23.800 --> 00:40:29.679 the spotlight since nineteen ninety as it seems like everyone associated with this case has 556 00:40:29.719 --> 00:40:34.119 been relentless in their attempts to get it solved and bring the perpetrators to justice. 557 00:40:34.639 --> 00:40:37.320 I'm sure they will not give up, and hopefully we will see closures 558 00:40:37.320 --> 00:40:43.000 someday. There was currently a thirty two thousand dollars reward for information, so 559 00:40:43.119 --> 00:40:46.840 if you happen to know anything about the Los Cruses Bowling Alley massacre, please 560 00:40:46.920 --> 00:40:52.000 contact crime Stoppers at one eight hundred two to two tips. That's one eight 561 00:40:52.119 --> 00:40:58.719 hundred two to two eight four seven seven. Jules asked any final thoughts in 562 00:40:58.760 --> 00:41:04.519 this case we see justice in the form of answers in the case. I 563 00:41:04.559 --> 00:41:07.920 don't know that you're ever going to have these perpetrators brought to justice because, 564 00:41:07.960 --> 00:41:12.360 like you said, these men were described as in their thirties to forties or 565 00:41:12.360 --> 00:41:16.199 forties to fifties, which would make them at this time what eighty three years 566 00:41:16.239 --> 00:41:22.440 old potentially or even older. So what might be a perk in that event 567 00:41:22.760 --> 00:41:28.719 is that if one of these individuals passes away, that on their deathbed they 568 00:41:28.760 --> 00:41:34.760 make a confession that they've confided in somebody, and once that person is deceased, 569 00:41:35.159 --> 00:41:38.159 the person that they confided in or told or bragged about this crime to 570 00:41:38.599 --> 00:41:42.599 says, listen, there's no more risk. I don't have to protect this 571 00:41:42.719 --> 00:41:45.719 person. Yes, I loved them, but I want this case to have 572 00:41:45.760 --> 00:41:50.239 answers, and it is possible that somebody would come forward and share that information 573 00:41:50.440 --> 00:41:53.519 after the death of these two perpetrators. So my prayer is that the case 574 00:41:53.559 --> 00:42:00.159 continues to remain in the spotlight, that there continues to be a remembrance of 575 00:42:00.199 --> 00:42:04.880 these victims from the tiniest little two year old up to their father, and 576 00:42:04.920 --> 00:42:09.119 that you have people that not only keep their memory alive, but continue to 577 00:42:09.159 --> 00:42:14.039 fight for and raise awareness so that someone does come forward one day. It 578 00:42:14.119 --> 00:42:16.960 is one of the most tragic and horrific cases I've heard of because of the 579 00:42:17.000 --> 00:42:22.320 callousness of it, because of the lack of information, and that it seems 580 00:42:22.360 --> 00:42:27.400 as if it's very difficult to look away from the reality these people have done 581 00:42:27.440 --> 00:42:32.440 something like this before. To have that much confidence and that little care for 582 00:42:32.559 --> 00:42:37.519 the people that they took that day. This case is such a tragedy, 583 00:42:37.840 --> 00:42:43.719 just the outright evil to kill four people at the bowling alley and to shoot 584 00:42:44.199 --> 00:42:47.840 small children, a two year old baby. I just think there's a very 585 00:42:47.840 --> 00:42:53.079 few cases where we see such disregard for human life. Like Ashley had brought 586 00:42:53.159 --> 00:42:57.320 up earlier in one of our episodes, what is the likelihood that a two 587 00:42:57.400 --> 00:43:00.760 year old is going to be able to report any deep tales about those who 588 00:43:00.840 --> 00:43:07.199 are the perpetrators, Like there's there's no chance they likely could not articulate anything, 589 00:43:07.280 --> 00:43:10.679 and there's going to be so much trauma associated with this. I'm I'm 590 00:43:10.760 --> 00:43:14.880 just in shock. I was familiar with this case before we covered it, 591 00:43:14.960 --> 00:43:19.119 but I find it to be a case of contradictions in that it seems so 592 00:43:19.280 --> 00:43:22.599 calculated and like it could be a deliberate hit. But then there's bits of 593 00:43:22.599 --> 00:43:28.880 it where you have three surviving victims where you shot them all but you didn't 594 00:43:29.000 --> 00:43:32.280 check to see if they were dead. You had two people who were perpetrators, 595 00:43:32.320 --> 00:43:36.159 you would think that one of them would have been there checking to see 596 00:43:36.199 --> 00:43:38.960 if these individuals were deceased. If you cared enough to point a gun and 597 00:43:39.000 --> 00:43:43.639 shoot at them. You'd think that you would care enough to find out if 598 00:43:43.639 --> 00:43:46.639 they were indeed deceased, and they didn't do that, which is so strange, 599 00:43:47.119 --> 00:43:52.440 and it seems like it must have been aimed at rj or Ron Senac. 600 00:43:52.639 --> 00:43:57.920 But then you have the other son, Steve Senak, who if it 601 00:43:58.039 --> 00:44:00.199 was going to be some family vendetta, why didn't they go after him. 602 00:44:01.000 --> 00:44:06.400 I'm really confounded by the fact that somebody hasn't come forward. I mean, 603 00:44:06.400 --> 00:44:09.880 we had Tireena come forward. And although the logical part of my brain wants 604 00:44:09.920 --> 00:44:14.920 to think that these guys left Las crusis if they had access to a vehicle, 605 00:44:15.000 --> 00:44:17.320 which I think if you're going to commit a crime like this, you 606 00:44:17.320 --> 00:44:22.159 would want to have a vehicle parked somewhere. But maybe they knew ti Arena 607 00:44:22.280 --> 00:44:24.480 or they ran into her and thought this is a place to just hide out 608 00:44:24.920 --> 00:44:29.679 the fact that she passed a polygraph whatever in regard you want to pay to 609 00:44:30.119 --> 00:44:34.800 polygraphs. I mean, I think there is some validity to her story. 610 00:44:34.840 --> 00:44:38.039 It's not just this fabricated story that she came up with. If she could 611 00:44:38.079 --> 00:44:42.719 back it up, like her vital signs are changing, She's not sweating. 612 00:44:42.760 --> 00:44:46.199 It's not obvious that she's lying. It's just too bad that much like r 613 00:44:46.320 --> 00:44:51.119 J. Senac who died of a drug overdose, we also have Tierna who's 614 00:44:51.199 --> 00:44:55.880 dying of a drug overdose. It's really really heartbreaking. There's so many victims 615 00:44:55.880 --> 00:45:00.920 in this case, even seeing Stephanie Senac die those years later after being rendered 616 00:45:01.000 --> 00:45:06.840 essentially a goora phobic, so taking the joy out of her life. It's 617 00:45:06.920 --> 00:45:10.639 nice that we see Melissa repass thrive, but there's just so many victims here, 618 00:45:10.679 --> 00:45:15.840 and we've got a community that's victimized. And I think it's really interesting 619 00:45:15.000 --> 00:45:22.119 the shell station, the raised shell station where the individual had their hands bound 620 00:45:22.159 --> 00:45:25.039 behind their back and they were shot and there was five hundred dollars stolen. 621 00:45:25.079 --> 00:45:29.480 It was also in the early morning hours. I think that the parallels there 622 00:45:29.559 --> 00:45:32.760 are really interesting. And with the other Bowling Alley were until nineteen eighty five 623 00:45:34.280 --> 00:45:38.159 we saw ron Cenac's name on the deed until he lost that government forfeiture or 624 00:45:38.320 --> 00:45:44.480 bankruptcy or It's all very interesting. There seems to be these links that are 625 00:45:44.480 --> 00:45:46.920 a little more than tenuous, but I can't quite put my finger on it, 626 00:45:47.199 --> 00:45:51.719 and I'm just shocked that this hasn't been solved by somebody coming forward with 627 00:45:51.800 --> 00:45:57.400 information. Yeah, I mentioned earlier that I still remember seeing this featured on 628 00:45:57.480 --> 00:46:00.719 Unsolved Mysteries and America's Most Wanted back in now Seen ninety and I seem to 629 00:46:00.760 --> 00:46:06.320 recall that their segments were produced very quickly after the crime took place because there 630 00:46:06.360 --> 00:46:08.960 was an urgency involved, saying, this is one of the most horrific murders 631 00:46:09.000 --> 00:46:13.400 to take place in the United States within the past few years, so we 632 00:46:13.480 --> 00:46:15.400 really want to get the word out, show the composite sketches of these two 633 00:46:15.480 --> 00:46:20.400 men, and hopefully it will be solved soon. And quite honestly, back 634 00:46:20.400 --> 00:46:22.559 then, with so much attention being paid to this, I never thought that 635 00:46:22.599 --> 00:46:27.880 we'd be here thirty four years later and we still wouldn't know the identities of 636 00:46:27.920 --> 00:46:30.559 the people who did this, and that the crime would still be unsolved. 637 00:46:31.519 --> 00:46:35.800 I mean, it's one of those ones because we have surviving victims, we 638 00:46:35.920 --> 00:46:38.679 know exactly what happened, we know how the crime was carried out, but 639 00:46:38.760 --> 00:46:43.000 the problem is that we just don't know the identities of the two men who 640 00:46:43.000 --> 00:46:46.199 did this and what their motive was. I've always been inclined to believe that 641 00:46:46.239 --> 00:46:51.519 it was something more to this than a robbery, that there was some sort 642 00:46:51.559 --> 00:46:54.239 of personal grudge here, or perhaps they were looking for something else. But 643 00:46:54.320 --> 00:46:59.519 the fact that they showed no qualms about shooting children and were playing to set 644 00:46:59.519 --> 00:47:01.880 fire to the offs to destroy all the evidence, and that they had also 645 00:47:01.920 --> 00:47:07.000 been allegedly casing the place beforehand, makes me think that there's just something more 646 00:47:07.000 --> 00:47:10.840 to the story. That maybe something was going on in the senoc family which 647 00:47:12.000 --> 00:47:15.119 investigators have just been unable to figure it out, which is why these two 648 00:47:15.119 --> 00:47:21.360 men decided to target the bowling alley, and because their faces have been circulated 649 00:47:21.400 --> 00:47:24.800 so much, I am inclined to believe that they probably made it over the 650 00:47:24.840 --> 00:47:30.280 Mexican border a short time after this crime took place, before the major manhunt 651 00:47:30.320 --> 00:47:34.639 started, and if they managed to stay off the radar, then that could 652 00:47:34.639 --> 00:47:37.679 explain why they've never been identified or caught. I mean, I certainly hope 653 00:47:37.679 --> 00:47:40.920 that's not what happened, because I don't want to rule out the possibility that 654 00:47:42.519 --> 00:47:45.480 they will never be found or that there aren't people out there with information about 655 00:47:45.519 --> 00:47:50.280 what happened. But because of all the publicity, I have to assume that 656 00:47:50.519 --> 00:47:53.679 someone out there might have a pretty good idea who these guys are and maybe 657 00:47:53.800 --> 00:47:59.360 has the necessary information to share with law enforcement which will help this case break 658 00:47:59.400 --> 00:48:01.840 this case why open? I mean, we've seen these past several years that 659 00:48:01.920 --> 00:48:06.440 a lot of cold cases that are decades old have wound up being solved, 660 00:48:06.440 --> 00:48:10.079 and sometimes if they have the necessary physical evidence, they can still conclusively lake 661 00:48:10.119 --> 00:48:15.039 a crime to a deceased suspect and close the case even though they can't technically 662 00:48:15.119 --> 00:48:19.880 charge them. And maybe that will happen with this case as well, even 663 00:48:19.880 --> 00:48:23.679 if the perpetrators are already deceased. But it has haunted me, but for 664 00:48:23.760 --> 00:48:28.199 just so many decades, so many years, and there are just so many 665 00:48:28.280 --> 00:48:30.679 victims in this case, a couple of survivors who are still dealing with trauma 666 00:48:30.719 --> 00:48:34.559 to this day. So if I had to make a list of cases we've 667 00:48:34.599 --> 00:48:37.280 covered on this podcast that I really want to see solved in my lifetime, 668 00:48:37.840 --> 00:48:43.239 this would definitely be near right near the very top. Robin, do you 669 00:48:43.239 --> 00:48:45.719 want to tell us a little bit about the Trailment Cold Patreon. Yes, 670 00:48:45.760 --> 00:48:50.119 the Trail Cold Patreon has been around for three years now, and we offer 671 00:48:50.199 --> 00:48:54.360 these standard bonus features like early ad free episodes, and I also send out 672 00:48:54.599 --> 00:48:59.920 stickers and sign thank you cards to anyone who signs up with us on Patreon 673 00:49:00.199 --> 00:49:05.079 if you join our five dollars tier Tier two. We also offer monthly bonus 674 00:49:05.079 --> 00:49:08.519 episodes in which I talk about cases which are not featured on the Trail Went 675 00:49:08.639 --> 00:49:13.920 Cold's original feed, so they're exclusive to Patreon and if you join our highest 676 00:49:13.960 --> 00:49:16.679 tier tier three, the ten dollar tier. One of the features we offer 677 00:49:16.960 --> 00:49:22.119 is a audio commentary track over classic episodes of UNSAWD Mysteries, where you can 678 00:49:22.159 --> 00:49:28.360 download an audio file and then boot up the original Unsolved Mysteries episode on Amazon 679 00:49:28.440 --> 00:49:31.920 Prime or YouTube and play it with my audio commentary playing in the background, 680 00:49:31.960 --> 00:49:37.480 where I just provide trivia and factoids about the cases featured in this episode. 681 00:49:37.719 --> 00:49:40.800 And incidentally, the very first episode that I did a commentary track over was 682 00:49:40.800 --> 00:49:45.079 the episode featuring this case. So if you want to download a commentary track 683 00:49:45.079 --> 00:49:49.960 in which I make more smart ass remarks about Jewel Kaylor, then be sure 684 00:49:50.000 --> 00:49:52.920 to join Tier three. So I want to let you know a little bit 685 00:49:52.920 --> 00:49:55.960 about the Jewels and Nashty Patreons. So there's early ad free episodes of the 686 00:49:57.000 --> 00:50:00.079 Path Went Chili. We've got our Path Went Chili minis, which are always 687 00:50:00.079 --> 00:50:02.880 over an hour, so they're not very many, but they're just too short 688 00:50:02.920 --> 00:50:07.519 to turn into a series, and we're really enjoying doing those, so we 689 00:50:07.559 --> 00:50:09.639 hope you'll check out those patreons. We'll link them in the show notes. 690 00:50:10.159 --> 00:50:14.000 So I want to thank you all for listening, and any chance you have 691 00:50:14.119 --> 00:50:16.559 to share us on social media with a friend or to rate and review is 692 00:50:16.599 --> 00:50:21.800 greatly appreciated. You can email us at the Pathwentchili at gmail dot com. 693 00:50:22.039 --> 00:50:24.559 You can reach us on Twitter at the Pathwin. So until next time, 694 00:50:24.599 --> 00:50:29.920 be sure to bundle up because cold trails and chili pass call for warm clothing. 695 00:50:30.119 --> 00:50:32.280 Music by Paul Rich from the podcast Cold Callers Comedy