1 00:00:12,279 --> 00:00:26,359 This is Jonathan Pegel. Welcome to the Symbolic World. So hello everyone, 2 00:00:26,480 --> 00:00:32,000 this is Sarah and Hamilton and today I'm very excited to have Jonathan Pageot back 3 00:00:32,039 --> 00:00:37,079 on the channel. My last video with Jonathan was one of the most viewed 4 00:00:37,159 --> 00:00:41,240 long form videos on this channel, so I know people got a lot out 5 00:00:41,240 --> 00:00:45,320 of it and I definitely did as well. So welcome back. It's great 6 00:00:45,320 --> 00:00:47,840 to see you again, Sea. I'm always great to talk to you too. 7 00:00:48,320 --> 00:00:51,320 So I want to talk today about a lot of things, really, 8 00:00:51,439 --> 00:00:56,159 but I'm going to start by returning to this theme of universal history. You've 9 00:00:56,159 --> 00:01:00,520 produced a huge amount of content on and I want to connect that little bit 10 00:01:00,640 --> 00:01:06,040 to your recent work on snow White and so let me just ask you this 11 00:01:06,159 --> 00:01:12,319 question. What is the connection between the universal history of real quote unquote nations 12 00:01:12,439 --> 00:01:22,159 Ethiopia, America, Israel and unreal or fictional narrative. How do those two 13 00:01:22,239 --> 00:01:26,920 things intersect and what does that mean for the significance of symbolism and universal history. 14 00:01:26,640 --> 00:01:30,959 Well, what happens, I think the way to understand is that what 15 00:01:30,000 --> 00:01:34,959 happens with universal history in some ways is that the way that things are remembered 16 00:01:36,280 --> 00:01:40,319 at the origin, especially at the origin of something. They tend to have 17 00:01:40,400 --> 00:01:44,879 a certain form, They tend to contract towards in certain directions, towards something 18 00:01:44,959 --> 00:01:49,280 we could call mythological storytelling, which is that the tropes become more and more 19 00:01:49,319 --> 00:01:56,920 condensed, and you know, you find things that we don't usually find in 20 00:01:56,959 --> 00:02:00,439 everyday life when you look, especially the further you go back in the past. 21 00:02:00,439 --> 00:02:05,439 So if you look at early chronicles, it's always like giants and dragons 22 00:02:05,480 --> 00:02:08,159 and you know, hybrid kings and all of this stuff that seems a little 23 00:02:08,159 --> 00:02:14,759 crazy to us. And I think that studying fairy tales can help us understand 24 00:02:15,479 --> 00:02:19,360 why it is that things get remembered that way, and why and what importance 25 00:02:19,520 --> 00:02:23,240 they have. Some of the images and some of the tropes have an analogical 26 00:02:23,280 --> 00:02:27,919 coherence. You could say that that can help us understand why our universal histories 27 00:02:27,960 --> 00:02:31,400 look the way they do, and then to some extent, also why those 28 00:02:31,520 --> 00:02:36,439 patterns happen in scripture as well, similar patterns as to what happened in the 29 00:02:36,439 --> 00:02:39,120 fairy tales. Of course, in scripture we're talking about a different level of 30 00:02:39,159 --> 00:02:43,280 reality. We don't want to com we don't want to compare scripture and fairy 31 00:02:43,280 --> 00:02:47,439 tales too much, but to some extent we can in the sense that they 32 00:02:49,319 --> 00:02:54,719 seem to capture similar themes as the fairy tale seem to capture similar themes and 33 00:02:54,800 --> 00:02:59,199 what you find, especially in the Old Testament. Yeah, and what do 34 00:02:59,199 --> 00:03:05,319 you think there's been a recent I've noticed a focus from a lot of different 35 00:03:05,360 --> 00:03:09,639 people on this idea of, you know, a haunted universe or a universe 36 00:03:09,680 --> 00:03:15,719 which is more populous then we're familiar with thinking of it. I know, 37 00:03:15,759 --> 00:03:21,800 reading Saint Perferios, it was very interesting to me. There's a story where 38 00:03:21,879 --> 00:03:24,159 someone is talking to him and he's asking him, uh, you know, 39 00:03:24,479 --> 00:03:28,240 is there life on other planets? Are their aliens? And he says, 40 00:03:28,479 --> 00:03:30,960 why are you even asking me about life on other planets? Do you know 41 00:03:30,159 --> 00:03:36,879 just how much stuff there is around us right now? The idea exists, 42 00:03:37,479 --> 00:03:43,479 and I just thought that was so interesting because Saint Perfiios is one of those 43 00:03:43,520 --> 00:03:49,120 saints who has you might say, relatively unique spiritual gifts in that he was 44 00:03:49,199 --> 00:03:54,199 able to see lots of different things in the material world and the non material 45 00:03:54,199 --> 00:03:58,159 world which aren't accessible to us or even to a lot of other saints. 46 00:03:59,280 --> 00:04:03,639 And that was just fascinating to me in terms of this new kind of excitement 47 00:04:03,719 --> 00:04:09,800 or relatively new excitement about a more populous universe. So, yeah, when 48 00:04:09,840 --> 00:04:15,000 we talk about fairy tales, obviously we're talking in part about fairies. So 49 00:04:15,240 --> 00:04:20,519 do you think that at what point do we say that there is kind of 50 00:04:20,519 --> 00:04:26,279 a genuine, concrete reference to beings that we might call fairies. Yeah, 51 00:04:26,360 --> 00:04:29,360 so let me back up a little bit and try to, I think, 52 00:04:29,680 --> 00:04:33,279 kind of contextualize what's happening in terms of this new interest in, like you 53 00:04:33,279 --> 00:04:38,160 said, a more populous universe. You know, one of the things that 54 00:04:38,199 --> 00:04:44,360 happened, of course, in nineteenth century materialism was the evacuation of agency in 55 00:04:44,439 --> 00:04:48,240 the cosmos as superstition, right, the idea that every time you see agency 56 00:04:48,279 --> 00:04:51,759 in the cosmos, so that you see other consciousness acting in the cosmos, 57 00:04:53,439 --> 00:04:57,120 it's just superstition and projection, you know, that's the type of word they 58 00:04:57,279 --> 00:05:00,279 use. But that type of thinking, this materialist type of thing thinking, 59 00:05:00,959 --> 00:05:02,920 was never trying, didn't come to the point of trying to account for our 60 00:05:03,240 --> 00:05:08,240 consciousness and our agency, and they were just ignoring it as this kind of 61 00:05:08,279 --> 00:05:11,600 blind spot from a point of view where they looked on the world with that 62 00:05:11,680 --> 00:05:15,959 agency and consciousness. But then use their reason and their agency and consciousness to 63 00:05:16,079 --> 00:05:20,079 evacuate the rest of the universe of agency and consciousness. And so I think 64 00:05:20,079 --> 00:05:24,639 that we've come to a point where even a lot of scientists and a lot 65 00:05:24,680 --> 00:05:28,800 of you know, especially scientists that study cognition, they're realizing that this is 66 00:05:28,839 --> 00:05:32,920 a really ridiculous position to stand in. It's a ridiculous position to ignore the 67 00:05:33,000 --> 00:05:41,000 categories of consciousness when we're literally using those categories to evacuate the cosmos of consciousness. 68 00:05:41,199 --> 00:05:45,360 So I think that's the point where we've come to where now there are 69 00:05:45,519 --> 00:05:48,199 people very reasonable, you know, people that aren't Christian, that are atheists 70 00:05:48,319 --> 00:05:55,319 or secular or all kinds of people that are willing and in some ways realize 71 00:05:55,319 --> 00:06:01,600 that using categories of agency and consciousness to understand certain phenomena is actually more useful 72 00:06:02,000 --> 00:06:06,560 than the kind of cold analytical description that they are used to, especially for 73 00:06:06,680 --> 00:06:15,240 understanding social movements, for understanding kind of large scale transformation, using things like 74 00:06:15,560 --> 00:06:18,600 agency to explain those you know what, people use the term eggregre, They 75 00:06:18,680 --> 00:06:23,480 use different you know, they use things like emergence, words like emergence. 76 00:06:23,480 --> 00:06:26,879 In some ways, it doesn't matter to us at the outset were they youth, 77 00:06:26,959 --> 00:06:31,720 but they're noticing something like intelligent patterns kind of coming back and manifesting themselves 78 00:06:31,759 --> 00:06:38,000 on the world. So once you've crossed that threshold, and this is the 79 00:06:38,000 --> 00:06:41,199 funny thing that a lot of people don't realize, once they cross that threshold 80 00:06:41,240 --> 00:06:46,959 and they ride that out consistently, they will find themselves once again in a 81 00:06:46,000 --> 00:06:53,519 world of gins and fairies and intermediary beings. And I think that that you're 82 00:06:53,560 --> 00:06:56,680 seeing a lot of people talk about re enchantment. You know, you have 83 00:06:56,720 --> 00:07:00,639 broad Dreyer. I've just read an article by Mary Harrington today that tries to 84 00:07:00,680 --> 00:07:04,399 talk about re enchantment, people taking mushrooms, talking about all these beings that 85 00:07:04,439 --> 00:07:08,480 they meet and everything. And I think that that's the future. If you 86 00:07:08,480 --> 00:07:10,800 want to know what the future is, that's it. But it's a scary 87 00:07:11,040 --> 00:07:15,959 It's not that great of a future. It's scary because without order, without 88 00:07:15,000 --> 00:07:19,959 the logos, you know, ordering that world for us, then it's a 89 00:07:20,079 --> 00:07:25,199 very scary and dangerous world to walk through. So I think that fairy tales 90 00:07:25,319 --> 00:07:31,959 are a way to help people reaccustom themselves with these types of patterns. It 91 00:07:32,040 --> 00:07:36,480 was really interesting to me that you just mentioned the danger of meeting these things 92 00:07:36,519 --> 00:07:41,399 apart from the logos, and then mentioned fairy tales again because I remember in 93 00:07:41,480 --> 00:07:45,040 That Hideous Strength, which is called a modern fairy tale or a fairy tale 94 00:07:45,040 --> 00:07:51,000 for grown ups, that Hideous Strength has this wonderful scene where Jane encounters Venus 95 00:07:53,279 --> 00:07:58,279 and she goes into her room and she sees this burning woman and it absolutely 96 00:07:58,399 --> 00:08:03,279 terrifies her. And when she goes to Ransom and talks about it, he 97 00:08:03,319 --> 00:08:07,879 tells her, well, you've met Venus, but you've met Venus kind of 98 00:08:07,079 --> 00:08:15,240 naked. You've met her apart from Malelda or Christ and the story. And 99 00:08:15,519 --> 00:08:20,639 I think that idea really rolls together with a lot of things we read about 100 00:08:20,680 --> 00:08:26,120 in scripture, especially I think in Galatians, where the what what life looks 101 00:08:26,240 --> 00:08:33,080 like outside of Christ is you are enslaved or subjected to these powers which are 102 00:08:33,159 --> 00:08:39,039 external to you. You are considered just as kind of a part of a 103 00:08:39,120 --> 00:08:43,480 kind of wild world, whereas in Christ, humanity is really born, so 104 00:08:43,519 --> 00:08:48,759 that humanity stands, you know, in relation to the world as its lord, 105 00:08:48,799 --> 00:08:54,399 master and bridegroom because of the incarnation of the Word, who structures all 106 00:08:54,399 --> 00:08:58,080 of these different things. So I know that's a you know, no, 107 00:08:58,440 --> 00:09:01,919 I think you're you're You're totally right, and you know, you can we 108 00:09:01,960 --> 00:09:05,240 can talk about it in different ways, especially for people who might struggle to 109 00:09:05,320 --> 00:09:07,600 understand this, because you know, obviously, when you say something like that, 110 00:09:09,679 --> 00:09:13,120 as as you and I who've been thinking about this forever, it just 111 00:09:13,240 --> 00:09:16,360 makes sense when secutive people hear something like that, they just hear whooo. 112 00:09:16,759 --> 00:09:20,519 They just like see the wildness and craziness. And so, you know, 113 00:09:20,600 --> 00:09:24,000 one of the things that I've been trying to to do is obviously to bridge 114 00:09:24,039 --> 00:09:28,240 these two worlds that people understand what the hell we're talking about. And I 115 00:09:28,279 --> 00:09:33,720 think that you know, understanding for example, virtues and vices. You know, 116 00:09:33,879 --> 00:09:39,080 it's a it's a completely traditional Christian way to help people understand how agency 117 00:09:39,159 --> 00:09:43,639 acts on us and how depending on how we approach certain agencies that are acting 118 00:09:45,200 --> 00:09:48,320 on us and through us, then they can either be liberating and pointing towards 119 00:09:48,399 --> 00:09:52,840 Christ or they can they can simultaneously be you know, tyrants that rule over 120 00:09:52,960 --> 00:09:56,279 us. You know. And so if you think of a of a that 121 00:09:56,320 --> 00:10:00,960 they have a virtue like courage, you know, that is that is definitely 122 00:10:01,000 --> 00:10:03,799 a virtue if it's pointed in the right direction if you're courageous for the right 123 00:10:03,840 --> 00:10:09,600 regions. But then the same virtue can become a kind of prideful, you 124 00:10:09,639 --> 00:10:15,320 know, irascibility that will then that can trap you, and that can make 125 00:10:15,360 --> 00:10:18,279 you its slave if it's not pointed towards something higher. If it's not pointed 126 00:10:18,320 --> 00:10:22,000 to something, it kind of traps you. And that's what Dante, for 127 00:10:22,039 --> 00:10:24,480 example, tries to show in his Divine Comedy, which is that you know, 128 00:10:24,639 --> 00:10:31,799 anything that is not not aiming up and always kind of giving itself up 129 00:10:31,799 --> 00:10:35,799 towards higher and higher goods can become a vice. And that's what we see 130 00:10:35,799 --> 00:10:39,080 in the Fuelocalia. You know, it's like devices and the virtues are basically 131 00:10:39,080 --> 00:10:45,039 the same thing that that depending on how they're treated, will will will either 132 00:10:45,080 --> 00:10:50,080 be something like a you know, angelic transport towards God or a demonic kind 133 00:10:50,080 --> 00:10:52,279 of rule over you. And so this is it's more than that. It's 134 00:10:52,320 --> 00:10:56,960 not just virtues. Obviously, it is actual agencies that can rule over you. 135 00:10:58,240 --> 00:11:01,440 But I think that to help secular peace people, using the language of 136 00:11:01,519 --> 00:11:03,720 virtues is a way to at least help them see a little bit through this 137 00:11:03,759 --> 00:11:07,159 so they don't think we're just like in a marvel universe with like God's floating 138 00:11:07,159 --> 00:11:09,799 in the heavens that are just you know, like this kind of weird, 139 00:11:09,840 --> 00:11:16,200 materiless, ghostbuster type of spirituality that people you know immediately go to. Yeah, 140 00:11:16,240 --> 00:11:20,960 And I think that's a really good point and part of what has interested 141 00:11:20,960 --> 00:11:26,240 in me, you know, since I mean it's now become something of a 142 00:11:26,720 --> 00:11:31,559 you know, a buzzword for certain people. But I really remember the intense 143 00:11:31,639 --> 00:11:35,320 experience of having, you know, been a Christian, a believing Christian, 144 00:11:35,360 --> 00:11:39,159 and then in a very short period of time, entering into what you might 145 00:11:39,240 --> 00:11:45,399 call a re enchanted world where all of these things which formerly would have an 146 00:11:45,399 --> 00:11:50,960 intuition of implausibility had exactly the inverse intuition, so that you know, before, 147 00:11:50,080 --> 00:11:52,559 if I read a typological pattern in history, I would say, oh, 148 00:11:52,559 --> 00:11:56,440 someone's fudging the details. Yeah, And afterwards, if I read a 149 00:11:56,440 --> 00:11:58,840 typological pattern in history, that's like, oh, well, this is more 150 00:11:58,879 --> 00:12:01,759 likely to be true than not, because this is just the way the world 151 00:12:01,840 --> 00:12:07,600 works. So what you just said there reminded me of one of those questions 152 00:12:07,639 --> 00:12:09,720 that I've had for a long time, which is, in a lot of 153 00:12:09,759 --> 00:12:16,519 circumstances, why does the occult quote unquote seem to work. And let me 154 00:12:16,600 --> 00:12:20,679 just kind of throw a theory at you and then see what you have to 155 00:12:20,720 --> 00:12:24,240 say. So my idea about this, if you just think about what the 156 00:12:24,240 --> 00:12:31,279 occult is. It works through speech incantations, and you use incantations to alter 157 00:12:31,480 --> 00:12:33,360 and change things. So, you know, God makes the world through the 158 00:12:33,399 --> 00:12:37,759 word. You know, he's speaking throughout the six creation days. Then he 159 00:12:37,799 --> 00:12:41,120 makes man in his image. I e. Man is the speaking creature. 160 00:12:41,399 --> 00:12:43,879 God speaks to man. God a man can speak back to God in other 161 00:12:43,919 --> 00:12:48,679 words, and then Man reconstitutes and changes the world through that speech. Well, 162 00:12:48,759 --> 00:12:52,279 I think what the occult is, or at least a lot of it, 163 00:12:52,440 --> 00:12:56,799 what it really is is it takes that principle that nature, that human 164 00:12:56,840 --> 00:12:58,639 beings are tied to the world in such a way that their speech will alter 165 00:12:58,720 --> 00:13:03,480 and change things, and it severs it from its archetype, the SuperNature, 166 00:13:03,519 --> 00:13:07,159 which is the basis for its existence. And so what is going on in 167 00:13:07,200 --> 00:13:09,759 the occult versus what is going on in Christian prayer? Well, in a 168 00:13:09,799 --> 00:13:13,960 certain way, there's an analogy between the two, and that both are trying 169 00:13:15,000 --> 00:13:16,799 to influence the world in one way or another. When I'm praying for someone 170 00:13:16,799 --> 00:13:20,600 to get well. You know, I'm submitting the will to God, but 171 00:13:20,639 --> 00:13:24,840 I am trying to get them well by the means of prayer. And I 172 00:13:24,879 --> 00:13:28,799 think what happens in prayer is we take our will, our intentions, our 173 00:13:28,799 --> 00:13:31,320 desires, and we seek to affect them in the world, but we always 174 00:13:31,399 --> 00:13:37,720 bring them through the crucified Christ, so that we say, not my will, 175 00:13:37,000 --> 00:13:41,759 but thy will be done. And what that does is it perfects our 176 00:13:41,799 --> 00:13:46,000 intentions so that they can be realized with the maximum goodness. Whereas if a 177 00:13:46,039 --> 00:13:50,480 person does not transmit their will through Christ, this is incredibly dangerous because they 178 00:13:50,519 --> 00:13:54,200 say, oh, I want more money, but they don't have a sufficient 179 00:13:54,279 --> 00:13:58,519 understanding of the nature of what money is and everything else with which it is 180 00:13:58,559 --> 00:14:03,840 connected. So that when they realize their intentions in the world without transmitting them 181 00:14:03,840 --> 00:14:05,759 through the Logos, who is the archetype of all things, they get all 182 00:14:05,799 --> 00:14:11,320 this other stuff along with it that they weren't expecting because they don't have the 183 00:14:11,360 --> 00:14:16,480 comprehensive knowledge of the nature that the Logos himself has. So I think when 184 00:14:16,480 --> 00:14:20,399 you look at you know the occult and the ceremonial nature of it. In 185 00:14:20,440 --> 00:14:26,000 a certain way, it is a parody of the liturgy, because the liturgy 186 00:14:26,039 --> 00:14:28,080 is where we rule over the world, that is where we enter into Christ's 187 00:14:28,080 --> 00:14:33,399 throne room. And it looks like that. But even for a person who 188 00:14:33,399 --> 00:14:35,639 doesn't believe in God or Christ, even for people who are in practicing it, 189 00:14:35,639 --> 00:14:39,759 there's something creepy about it. There's something that's wrong. I mean, 190 00:14:39,960 --> 00:14:41,240 I think that's C. S. Lewis talks about that. You know, 191 00:14:41,279 --> 00:14:45,000 when he was a younger man interested in the occult and not a Christian. 192 00:14:45,440 --> 00:14:48,240 Something was just off about it and it seems to be detached from its actual 193 00:14:48,399 --> 00:14:52,840 end. Yeah, I think your insight is absolutely right, that's what it 194 00:14:52,960 --> 00:14:58,080 is. So the way to kind of understand it is for normal people to 195 00:14:58,120 --> 00:15:05,440 think about this is that the idea that you use ritual, language and incantation 196 00:15:05,720 --> 00:15:09,960 in order to modify reality is actually something that you do every day all the 197 00:15:11,039 --> 00:15:15,919 time. Right. It's like if I if I ask my contractor and I 198 00:15:15,960 --> 00:15:20,519 signed a contract with my contractor to build my house, I'm using language, 199 00:15:20,559 --> 00:15:24,200 meaning and ritual in order to get my house built. And so I'm not 200 00:15:24,240 --> 00:15:30,519 building my house, right, someone else is doing my will for me through 201 00:15:30,679 --> 00:15:35,679 through through an incantation and uh and a ritual signing of a document so that 202 00:15:35,039 --> 00:15:39,960 the contractor will then build my will my house for me. Right. So 203 00:15:39,000 --> 00:15:43,000 it's something that we actually do all the time. So first of all, 204 00:15:43,000 --> 00:15:48,200 we have to be a little cautious about freaking out too much, like about 205 00:15:48,200 --> 00:15:50,960 some of this stuff, right, But we should freak out because the difference 206 00:15:50,960 --> 00:15:56,559 between me asking getting signing a contract with my contractor to build my house and 207 00:15:56,600 --> 00:16:03,000 an occultist is that the occultist is conscious, spiritually conscious of the mechanisms by 208 00:16:03,000 --> 00:16:10,200 which things manifest themselves in the world. He understands that you are invoking certain 209 00:16:10,279 --> 00:16:14,799 principalities and certain realities in order to get things done in the world. But 210 00:16:15,039 --> 00:16:22,200 they are trying to utterly weaponize spiritual principles in order to get their will to 211 00:16:22,279 --> 00:16:26,279 be done by ignoring the way in which it connects to the highest good and 212 00:16:26,320 --> 00:16:32,320 to to to God. Right. And so the truth is that sometimes I'm 213 00:16:32,320 --> 00:16:33,679 doing that all the time in my life now. Right. It's like I'm 214 00:16:33,720 --> 00:16:37,279 sinning all the time because I'm hungry and i wanted to eat, and so 215 00:16:37,440 --> 00:16:41,679 I'll ask my son to go to the store and get me a chocolate bar 216 00:16:41,759 --> 00:16:44,600 or whatever. And in that way, I'm doing all that stuff, but 217 00:16:44,639 --> 00:16:48,399 it's it's kind of unconscious. It's it's not it's not great, but it's 218 00:16:48,440 --> 00:16:52,080 it's it's kind of unconscious. But when you become conscious of it, then 219 00:16:52,120 --> 00:16:56,759 the sin becomes much greater because you know what you're doing. You know what 220 00:16:56,840 --> 00:17:02,000 type of action you're posing, and what what type of let's say, misdirected 221 00:17:02,159 --> 00:17:04,519 power that you're using in order to accomplish your goal. And that's why, 222 00:17:04,920 --> 00:17:08,359 like you said, that's why it ends up looking more ritualized, that's why 223 00:17:08,400 --> 00:17:15,960 it ends up being more like liturgy, because it's people that are more aware 224 00:17:15,160 --> 00:17:21,559 of the mechanisms of reality and because of that, should be more let's say, 225 00:17:21,960 --> 00:17:26,279 more aware of how they should ultimately, you know, participate in a 226 00:17:26,640 --> 00:17:30,880 in a true liturgy, which is submitting their will to God and then through 227 00:17:30,960 --> 00:17:33,039 that, you know, submitting their will and the wills of things around them 228 00:17:33,039 --> 00:17:38,559 to God so that God's God's will can transform everything. But but it's hard. 229 00:17:38,599 --> 00:17:41,599 It's hard because people are to think like, well, how why would 230 00:17:41,599 --> 00:17:45,759 that work? Like why would you know saying some incantation, why would you 231 00:17:45,799 --> 00:17:51,319 know doing some procession work? And it's only because they don't understand that they 232 00:17:51,319 --> 00:17:53,880 do it all the time, and just because they can, they can recognize 233 00:17:55,200 --> 00:18:00,480 the mechanical causes that it's bringing about the change that somehow now they believe in 234 00:18:00,519 --> 00:18:03,799 it. But but you know, when a when a politician, let's say, 235 00:18:04,279 --> 00:18:11,039 makes a kind of statement on television about what needs to happen, you 236 00:18:11,079 --> 00:18:14,200 know, or or or some kind of thought leader, and then it happens 237 00:18:14,279 --> 00:18:18,279 in the world, they are not aware of the mechanical causes by which it's 238 00:18:18,279 --> 00:18:22,240 happening. They don't they don't know who's going to instantiate it or who's going 239 00:18:22,319 --> 00:18:26,160 to make it happen. But it still changes the world. And so it's 240 00:18:26,240 --> 00:18:30,240 those types of understanding that the occultists are trying to weaponize towards their will, 241 00:18:30,720 --> 00:18:34,359 and in some in a stranger way and in a more subtle way, it's 242 00:18:34,400 --> 00:18:40,839 something similar to that that we understand that if we address our prayers to God 243 00:18:41,079 --> 00:18:45,079 and we submit our will to God, then the greatest transformation for the greatest 244 00:18:45,119 --> 00:18:48,680 good is happening as we're doing that. So what do you think of the 245 00:18:48,759 --> 00:18:53,200 Global Consciousness Project. I don't know what that is with the Global consciousness project. 246 00:18:53,279 --> 00:19:00,680 Global consciousness project the eerie to me, it's it's so it's while since 247 00:19:00,680 --> 00:19:07,279 I've looked at it. But what it is is they set up around the 248 00:19:07,279 --> 00:19:12,799 world true random number generators, which are really actually hard to do because getting 249 00:19:12,880 --> 00:19:18,160 genuine randomness and not just a really complicated pattern takes a lot of doing, 250 00:19:18,200 --> 00:19:22,400 a lot of computer power. And so they set up these random number generators 251 00:19:22,440 --> 00:19:26,319 around the world, and it's going to just generate random numbers, obviously, 252 00:19:26,519 --> 00:19:29,079 and then what they do is they look for patterns in it and they see 253 00:19:29,079 --> 00:19:33,480 if that's correlated with major events in you know, world affairs, so in 254 00:19:33,720 --> 00:19:38,240 Massive Divination Project here, Yeah, so they what they did is they I 255 00:19:38,279 --> 00:19:44,640 think it's set up in the nineties and then they just looked at the data 256 00:19:44,799 --> 00:19:51,160 set in September eleventh, two thousand and one, and they argued that the 257 00:19:51,279 --> 00:19:57,720 numbers become less and less random because there's a genuine kind of physical significance to 258 00:19:59,039 --> 00:20:03,319 human attention and being focused at the same thing. In other words, that 259 00:20:03,799 --> 00:20:08,759 reconstitutes the actual structure of the world in some mysterious relative to our present state 260 00:20:08,799 --> 00:20:15,079 of knowledge. Way. So assuming for my viewers it's been a while since 261 00:20:15,079 --> 00:20:18,119 I've looked at this, I'm not going all in on the legitimacy of this, 262 00:20:18,200 --> 00:20:22,839 But assuming that that data set is actually true, how would you interpret 263 00:20:22,960 --> 00:20:26,119 that in light of what we were just saying? Yeah, so okay, 264 00:20:26,160 --> 00:20:30,559 so there. I think there are two things, like divination is obviously it's 265 00:20:30,599 --> 00:20:34,319 going to say obviously, Well, it's obviously a real thing. Divination is 266 00:20:34,359 --> 00:20:38,079 practiced in every culture all the time, from the beginning of time. There's 267 00:20:38,200 --> 00:20:41,599 I don't think there is such a thing as a culture that doesn't have some 268 00:20:41,720 --> 00:20:45,440 form of divination. Even within the Bible, there are there's divination that the 269 00:20:45,799 --> 00:20:51,279 famous Urim and Thummim, you know there they were divination things. You have 270 00:20:51,759 --> 00:20:56,519 Joseph who has a cup for divination that he hides in his brother's bag. 271 00:20:56,000 --> 00:21:00,799 And you know even in the New Testament you have to decide the apostles, 272 00:21:00,880 --> 00:21:07,319 drawing lots in order to decide who the next the next apostle is going to 273 00:21:07,359 --> 00:21:14,240 be. These are divination. These are diff divination mechanisms. Now, I 274 00:21:14,240 --> 00:21:18,880 think you're right, and and the the idea is that there's a there's a 275 00:21:18,920 --> 00:21:26,720 relationship between the intention and question as a frame, right, you can understand 276 00:21:26,720 --> 00:21:30,200 it that way. It's like you're framing reality. You're looking at reality for 277 00:21:30,240 --> 00:21:34,119 a reason. And when you look at reality for a reason, then out 278 00:21:34,119 --> 00:21:40,880 of indefinite potential, right out of the the chaos to chaos that is still 279 00:21:40,960 --> 00:21:45,839 I think believe underlying all of reality, you know, forms will will come 280 00:21:45,960 --> 00:21:52,240 up, because it's like it's it's it's analogous to when God says, calls 281 00:21:52,279 --> 00:21:56,880 forth and says, so you bring forth you know, identities, and then 282 00:21:56,119 --> 00:22:00,480 then he sees them and then and then you know, man part debates in 283 00:22:00,559 --> 00:22:03,559 naming them. So I think that's that's actually how it works. Now, 284 00:22:04,759 --> 00:22:14,400 there are obviously also reasons why divination is is prohibited in scripture because because it 285 00:22:14,480 --> 00:22:17,960 is very it is dangerous. The question is why are you doing that? 286 00:22:17,960 --> 00:22:19,799 That's I think that's the biggest questions, Like why are you doing that? 287 00:22:19,920 --> 00:22:22,880 Are you doing that because you want to try to If you're doing that because 288 00:22:22,880 --> 00:22:26,160 you want to try to predict the future in the kind of base way, 289 00:22:26,680 --> 00:22:30,640 you're doing that. Usually people do that stuff because they want to get rich, 290 00:22:30,720 --> 00:22:33,160 really like you know, they they want to guess the numbers for the 291 00:22:33,200 --> 00:22:37,880 lottery or some kind of nonsense like that. And so you can understand that 292 00:22:37,880 --> 00:22:42,039 when humans look for that type of power, they're often doing it for their 293 00:22:42,720 --> 00:22:45,799 more than often you know, just doing it for the wrong reasons. And 294 00:22:45,880 --> 00:22:52,720 also the other problem I think is that the capacity to accumulate data sets and 295 00:22:52,759 --> 00:23:00,599 to notice patterns across across massive amounts of that's they generated chaos doesn't mean that 296 00:23:00,640 --> 00:23:04,559 you'll understand them. The inside to understand those and the inside to understand the 297 00:23:06,759 --> 00:23:11,480 meaning from them don't come from that from that generation. They come from heaven, 298 00:23:11,599 --> 00:23:15,039 you could say. And you know, the capacity to interpret dreams, 299 00:23:15,079 --> 00:23:18,119 you could say that you see in Joseph is similar to that. But just 300 00:23:18,160 --> 00:23:22,799 because you have the dream doesn't mean you can interpret it. And sometimes people 301 00:23:22,200 --> 00:23:26,160 will put their will, like you when we talked about the idea of occultism, 302 00:23:26,400 --> 00:23:33,279 instead of being a transparent vehicle for a higher identity or reality to manifest 303 00:23:33,279 --> 00:23:37,720 itself, then they'll just put their will in it and then it gets twisted 304 00:23:37,799 --> 00:23:41,559 right away into whatever it is that they want. Right So what you're saying 305 00:23:41,599 --> 00:23:48,119 reminds me of that phrase in Genesis eleven, where mankind they come together, 306 00:23:48,319 --> 00:23:52,799 they build a city as culture and a tower cult and they're all unified, 307 00:23:52,799 --> 00:23:57,920 and God says they're all one people. Nothing that they do will be impossible 308 00:23:57,960 --> 00:24:00,519 for them. I think people read that, and they're like, well, 309 00:24:00,599 --> 00:24:04,519 isn't God God? I mean, uh, what is he talking about here? 310 00:24:04,640 --> 00:24:08,799 But I think this is actually a real statement of the ontology of creation. 311 00:24:10,519 --> 00:24:14,640 Mankind exists, and in Genesis one, there's one image of God. 312 00:24:14,680 --> 00:24:17,960 It is the human family, male and female, who is the image of 313 00:24:17,960 --> 00:24:22,160 God. So when mankind is united, that is the image through which God 314 00:24:22,279 --> 00:24:26,720 develops the world. And so when mankind is joined together and is of one 315 00:24:26,799 --> 00:24:32,599 mind, but that one mind is directed contrary to the word, that is 316 00:24:32,640 --> 00:24:37,519 an existential threat to the integrity of creation. So that in the flood the 317 00:24:37,559 --> 00:24:44,319 world just collapses false year. And I think that says something. But let 318 00:24:44,400 --> 00:24:45,880 me just get on what you said, which is that it's a great it's 319 00:24:45,880 --> 00:24:49,480 a great like nothing will stop them from doing what they want to do, 320 00:24:51,160 --> 00:24:55,119 and and and and that's true. And like you said, it's you're you 321 00:24:55,200 --> 00:24:57,559 got it exactly right. Which is that the problem, like what you when 322 00:24:57,559 --> 00:25:02,119 we talk about occultism at the outset, the problem is that is that you 323 00:25:02,200 --> 00:25:07,160 don't understand what it is that you want. You don't understand all the corollaries 324 00:25:07,519 --> 00:25:10,359 of what it is that you want. So maybe we will create a society 325 00:25:10,359 --> 00:25:15,519 where everybody has everything they need physically, and everybody is super comfortable, and 326 00:25:15,559 --> 00:25:18,400 then we're like, well, why is everybody infertile? Now? Why does 327 00:25:18,440 --> 00:25:22,640 everybody? Why is everybody desperate? Why is everybody miserable? Didn't we do 328 00:25:22,720 --> 00:25:25,400 what we wanted to do? And I think that that's right, It's like, 329 00:25:25,559 --> 00:25:27,720 it's exactly right. So the sort of babble is like they'll do what 330 00:25:27,759 --> 00:25:32,319 they want to do, but it's actually to their own destruction. Yeah, 331 00:25:32,680 --> 00:25:38,640 So let me just kind of take that and ask, over the past couple 332 00:25:38,839 --> 00:25:45,799 years or a few years, in what way as your kind of attention to 333 00:25:47,440 --> 00:25:56,000 symbolism in creation and in non biblical quote unquote stories, how has that affected 334 00:25:56,000 --> 00:25:59,200 your reading of scripture? And then how do they kind of ping back and 335 00:25:59,240 --> 00:26:02,720 forth? Because that's it's been a big thing for me, that reading symbolism 336 00:26:02,759 --> 00:26:04,319 in scripture, then you see the world better, and then you see scripture 337 00:26:04,319 --> 00:26:07,440 better, so on and so forth. Oh, definitely, I mean I 338 00:26:07,480 --> 00:26:11,880 think that you know, if you think if you take the snow White project 339 00:26:11,920 --> 00:26:15,640 that we're doing now, that is definitely there's been this weird back and forth 340 00:26:15,680 --> 00:26:22,480 between scripture and so let me give you a little example in snow White it 341 00:26:22,680 --> 00:26:25,440 is that you know, snow White eats an apple and dies, right, 342 00:26:25,640 --> 00:26:29,759 So you're like, obviously there's got to be a connection to the other story, 343 00:26:30,119 --> 00:26:32,839 but it's kind of muddy, right, It's like I don't totally see 344 00:26:32,839 --> 00:26:37,440 it. And then I realized that in the story of snow White, in 345 00:26:37,480 --> 00:26:41,559 the original grim story or you know, based on the ancient traditions, the 346 00:26:41,960 --> 00:26:45,279 queen goes three times to see her, and every time she goes she brings 347 00:26:45,319 --> 00:26:49,240 her something to supplement her beauty. She brings her a comb and then like 348 00:26:49,839 --> 00:26:53,400 a girdle or a belt in order to supplement your beauty. And You're like, 349 00:26:53,680 --> 00:26:57,480 why is she doing that. Isn't snow White the most beautiful girl in 350 00:26:57,519 --> 00:27:02,440 the world, So why is she trying to to tempt her with this supplementarity? 351 00:27:02,880 --> 00:27:06,799 And I'm like, okay, I'm onto something. This is definitely what's 352 00:27:06,839 --> 00:27:11,000 going on related to scripture. And so then my my insight was that in 353 00:27:11,039 --> 00:27:15,039 fact, what the what the queen is offering snow White with the apple is 354 00:27:15,079 --> 00:27:19,680 awareness of beauty. She's saying, you will know that you are the most 355 00:27:19,720 --> 00:27:23,759 beautiful in the world. She already is the most beautiful in the world, 356 00:27:25,039 --> 00:27:29,960 but you'll know that you're the most beautiful, and so she trades like reality 357 00:27:30,000 --> 00:27:33,160 for the supplement, for the artifact of it, or for the self conscious 358 00:27:33,480 --> 00:27:37,960 awareness of it. And she's said, and she actually trades the real thing 359 00:27:37,000 --> 00:27:41,160 for that, And I thought, oh, man, there's already there's something 360 00:27:41,200 --> 00:27:44,119 in Genesis going on with that, because it says that Adam and Eve are 361 00:27:44,160 --> 00:27:48,640 made in the image of God, and then the serpent says, eat the 362 00:27:48,680 --> 00:27:52,119 fruit and you'll become like God. It's like there's something and so it's like, 363 00:27:52,240 --> 00:27:56,279 I'm still I'm still kind of bouncing off those two, those two those 364 00:27:56,319 --> 00:28:00,160 two things, and then snow White brought me back the scripture and made me 365 00:28:00,279 --> 00:28:03,960 noticed that it's as if there's something that, you know, the idea that 366 00:28:03,000 --> 00:28:07,240 what God really did want for them was them to become like him. That's 367 00:28:07,279 --> 00:28:10,960 actually what he wants for them, but that in taking that for themselves and 368 00:28:11,000 --> 00:28:15,440 becoming kind of becoming self aware of it through an act of will and power, 369 00:28:15,759 --> 00:28:18,680 they lose it. But if they had just submitted to God and you 370 00:28:18,720 --> 00:28:22,519 know, been in the right relationship to Him, then they would have been 371 00:28:22,920 --> 00:28:26,079 they they would have accomplished that, which is that ultimately even because they even 372 00:28:26,119 --> 00:28:30,400 what the serpent promised them they could have they would have accomplished it. And 373 00:28:30,400 --> 00:28:33,559 that's what we've seen Christ obviously. Uh. And so it's weird that so 374 00:28:33,599 --> 00:28:36,440 snow white. So was like, I used the Bible to understand snow white, 375 00:28:36,440 --> 00:28:37,720 but then when I saw what happening it was happening in snow white, 376 00:28:37,960 --> 00:28:42,440 it made me see back in scripture a pattern that I had kind of skipped 377 00:28:42,480 --> 00:28:48,039 over that i'd you know, ironed over too easily. That when you're describing 378 00:28:48,039 --> 00:28:55,200 that story, it recalled for me. You know, this great biblical theme, 379 00:28:55,400 --> 00:29:00,079 which is that you know, after the sin, one of the curses 380 00:29:00,279 --> 00:29:03,279 is that your desire will be after your husband. You know, in the 381 00:29:03,319 --> 00:29:07,880 context of the story, Adam has already been created in a relationship to Eve, 382 00:29:07,920 --> 00:29:10,960 which can be called headship. And so how exactly do we take that 383 00:29:11,279 --> 00:29:14,039 the way I've come to take it to say, well, right now, 384 00:29:14,680 --> 00:29:19,440 Adam is what's happened made Adam a fallen creature, and Eve, the feminine 385 00:29:19,440 --> 00:29:25,200 partner, is now in a state of curse because she's in subjection to this 386 00:29:25,319 --> 00:29:29,359 creature who has fallen. And so then you see throughout Isaiah and so forth, 387 00:29:29,640 --> 00:29:33,759 Zion is described as a bride who is baron who can't bring forth seed, 388 00:29:33,200 --> 00:29:37,240 and the servant and the God of Israel. So hint, hint, 389 00:29:37,599 --> 00:29:42,119 they're both described as the true bridegroom who is going to marry this baron woman 390 00:29:42,519 --> 00:29:48,519 and raise her from the dead. And so there's that theme and a lot 391 00:29:48,519 --> 00:29:53,279 of stories. You know that the bride is in a state to some degree 392 00:29:53,319 --> 00:29:56,960 of her own fault, to some degree not of her own fault. It's 393 00:29:56,960 --> 00:30:00,559 a complex issue. In scripture, the bride is in this state of deep 394 00:30:00,599 --> 00:30:06,400 sleep or death and needs rescuing from the bridegroom. And obviously this is typical 395 00:30:06,440 --> 00:30:12,039 of Christ. And then in that theme of knowledge, I think we see 396 00:30:12,079 --> 00:30:15,200 there's a lot of stuff going on in Genesis three and following, and then 397 00:30:15,200 --> 00:30:18,119 in the New Testament, because if you had knowledge, are good and navel 398 00:30:18,160 --> 00:30:21,799 And then Genesis for Adam knew his wife and she can see it, and 399 00:30:21,839 --> 00:30:25,519 he brought forth kine. So what is the problem here, Well, the 400 00:30:25,599 --> 00:30:29,319 problem is that Adam and Eve have just been cut off from the presence of 401 00:30:29,359 --> 00:30:32,920 God, and the presence of God in the garden is the means by which 402 00:30:33,039 --> 00:30:36,480 their knowledge is joined to Him. And having been cut off in the presence 403 00:30:36,480 --> 00:30:41,440 of God. They know each other some degree apart from God, and that 404 00:30:41,680 --> 00:30:45,359 produces generations which lead down to the flood. And then in the New Testament, 405 00:30:45,480 --> 00:30:51,400 what happens is we have a mode of selfhood that is from outside this 406 00:30:51,480 --> 00:30:53,519 world but comes into this world, that is the self of the only begotten 407 00:30:53,599 --> 00:30:59,920 Son in relation to the Father, and that enables us to then be human 408 00:31:00,079 --> 00:31:04,240 in a way that is compatible with God's knowing us fully so that we might 409 00:31:04,319 --> 00:31:08,240 be fully known. So those are just some yeah, yeah, yeah, 410 00:31:08,279 --> 00:31:15,680 there's definitely, there's definitely that's definitely right. And the the the strangeness of 411 00:31:15,720 --> 00:31:21,000 the story too, the strangeness of the story when you see this how Christ 412 00:31:21,119 --> 00:31:26,359 kind of resolves the whole pattern. It's a it's interesting when you compare to 413 00:31:26,359 --> 00:31:30,319 Adam and Eve and you see, you know what knowledge does and how Christ 414 00:31:30,400 --> 00:31:37,839 reacts to to his situation and how Adam reacts with situation. And so I 415 00:31:37,880 --> 00:31:44,799 always have this image where you know, the the the serpent. The serpent 416 00:31:44,839 --> 00:31:47,599 tells Adam and Eve, if you eat the fruit, you'll become like God. 417 00:31:48,519 --> 00:31:51,200 And then God told Amaniev if you eat the fruit, you will die, 418 00:31:52,440 --> 00:31:55,200 and Jesus just said yes, like yes, to both of those, 419 00:31:55,400 --> 00:31:59,039 you know, and but Adam didn't, and that was that was in some 420 00:31:59,039 --> 00:32:05,200 ways part of the fall is that Adam refuses to humble himself, you know, 421 00:32:05,440 --> 00:32:07,200 in the in the moment where he eats, he refuses to die. 422 00:32:07,319 --> 00:32:10,160 In the moment when he eats the fruit, he says, it's not my 423 00:32:10,279 --> 00:32:14,720 fault, it's her fault. It's not my fault, it's the serpent's fault. 424 00:32:14,759 --> 00:32:16,720 It's like, it's everybody's fault but mine. And I'm going to protect 425 00:32:16,720 --> 00:32:22,480 myself, going to hide myself. I'm going to cut myself off from God, 426 00:32:22,880 --> 00:32:29,480 whereas Christ says yes, and then Christ dies and and you know, 427 00:32:29,519 --> 00:32:31,160 and so this image, you know, you you're you're Orthodox, so you've 428 00:32:31,160 --> 00:32:35,759 seen it, like this kind of this icon that we have during during the 429 00:32:35,960 --> 00:32:39,319 Holy Week of the Bridegroom, you know, and it's like we have this 430 00:32:39,319 --> 00:32:42,720 this icon, which we call the icon of the Bridegroom, and it's the 431 00:32:42,960 --> 00:32:47,400 icon of Christ being beaten and tortured, you know, and ironically being treated 432 00:32:47,440 --> 00:32:53,519 as king by by Pilot and his and his his cronies. And it's like, 433 00:32:53,559 --> 00:32:57,880 well, that's the surprise, that's the surprise of the bridegroom. Right. 434 00:32:57,880 --> 00:33:01,400 It's the surprise of what it is that's solves the puzzle from the beginning, 435 00:33:01,880 --> 00:33:07,559 which is that in humbling ourselves, in being willing to die, you 436 00:33:07,559 --> 00:33:12,720 know, then that knowledge is transformed into glory. It doesn't cut us off. 437 00:33:12,759 --> 00:33:16,720 It actually leads us higher into Yeah, into into the highest place. 438 00:33:16,759 --> 00:33:21,960 So it's a it's yeah, blows your mind when you when you see it. 439 00:33:22,279 --> 00:33:24,759 Yeah. In Genesis, you know, when God says you to this 440 00:33:24,839 --> 00:33:28,279 fruit in the day, you will surely die. You know. One of 441 00:33:28,319 --> 00:33:32,160 the things that happens immediately afterwards is God takes Adam puts him into a deep 442 00:33:32,240 --> 00:33:37,400 sleep, which is I would argue a type of death, you know, 443 00:33:37,680 --> 00:33:42,960 the place where you're divided into and then you're reunited in glorified form. And 444 00:33:43,000 --> 00:33:45,640 then when you think about the way in which Christ is the bridegroom and the 445 00:33:45,680 --> 00:33:49,440 way that that connects to his mission relatives of the church. By the way, 446 00:33:49,440 --> 00:33:51,640 from my audience that do live near a military base, if you can 447 00:33:51,680 --> 00:33:53,640 hear the plane outside, so I apologize for that. If you think about 448 00:33:53,680 --> 00:33:58,119 the way that Christ is bride come to his church, says that he cleansed 449 00:33:58,160 --> 00:34:01,400 her by the washing of water through the word and then you read Genesis three, 450 00:34:01,880 --> 00:34:06,559 and there's supposed to be a three way dialogue here, or a trialogue 451 00:34:06,640 --> 00:34:09,039 the serpent, Eve and Adam, because it says that Adam was with her, 452 00:34:09,480 --> 00:34:15,000 and yet he's utterly silent. The serpent is engaging in this dialogue with 453 00:34:15,119 --> 00:34:17,639 Eve, and Adam is just kind of standing there. And I think one 454 00:34:17,719 --> 00:34:23,480 of the implications of the text is that Adam is very interested to see what 455 00:34:23,639 --> 00:34:28,519 is going to happen, because God has told him something about the tree. 456 00:34:28,880 --> 00:34:30,639 The day you eat of it, you will surely die, but he hasn't 457 00:34:30,719 --> 00:34:35,800 learned that by direct experience. And now he has this other person who's standing 458 00:34:35,840 --> 00:34:38,079 there, and the serpent is saying, you're not gonna die, why don't 459 00:34:38,079 --> 00:34:42,679 you eat of it? And Adam stands there, he wait sees she eats 460 00:34:42,679 --> 00:34:45,480 of it, she doesn't immediately drop dead, and then Adam says, I'm 461 00:34:45,480 --> 00:34:51,199 going to eat of it as well. And then it's the divine presence which 462 00:34:51,239 --> 00:34:57,119 comes. And James Jordan has argued that this is the first instance in scripture 463 00:34:57,199 --> 00:35:01,880 of the delay of the perusia, where the divine presence waits for us to 464 00:35:02,280 --> 00:35:08,760 kind of work our own will out before appearing and then implementing the consequences of 465 00:35:08,800 --> 00:35:14,599 that decision. So there's so much stuff here that I think you're right in 466 00:35:14,679 --> 00:35:21,199 that going to these mythological or fictional stories, these fairy tales, you know, 467 00:35:21,239 --> 00:35:25,280 we're less familiar with them, and as a consequence, sometimes the point 468 00:35:25,280 --> 00:35:30,280 of the story strikes us more directly. And then we read scriptural stories with 469 00:35:30,320 --> 00:35:34,400 which we are more familiar and we see them in a new and more profound 470 00:35:34,480 --> 00:35:37,400 light. That's that's absolutely right, and I see that all the time where 471 00:35:37,920 --> 00:35:43,400 people, you know, you've been so especially if you grew up in a 472 00:35:43,480 --> 00:35:46,440 Christian world and if you're surrounded by these Christian stories, these stories are so 473 00:35:46,559 --> 00:35:52,960 much are have become almost invisible because people know them and they don't see their 474 00:35:53,000 --> 00:35:57,519 full implications. They don't see and also because of the way the scripture is 475 00:35:57,519 --> 00:36:01,480 written, you know, the links aren't often made for you like they would 476 00:36:01,519 --> 00:36:05,079 in a movie. For example, Like you watch a movie and it's you 477 00:36:05,079 --> 00:36:07,840 know, it's like they'll lead you along, they'll make sure you understand how 478 00:36:07,880 --> 00:36:12,719 everything connects everything else, and that's fine. It's like a training for stories. 479 00:36:12,880 --> 00:36:15,119 But in scripture, it's not like that. In scripture, just like 480 00:36:15,280 --> 00:36:19,840 event event, event, event, event, and you have to be able 481 00:36:19,880 --> 00:36:22,199 to see the pattern through it. They're not going to tell you. They're 482 00:36:22,199 --> 00:36:25,159 not going to hint at it, and so and so looking at these looking 483 00:36:25,199 --> 00:36:30,800 at ancient myths or looking fairy tales, even modern fair storytelling can be a 484 00:36:30,840 --> 00:36:36,639 training for us because they have to some way contain similar patterns because they're made 485 00:36:36,679 --> 00:36:38,840 of attention. You know, stories are made of attention. They're the things 486 00:36:38,880 --> 00:36:43,960 we care about. And and we are created by God, We're created by 487 00:36:43,960 --> 00:36:47,159 the divine logos. And so when we when we are attracted to something, 488 00:36:47,639 --> 00:36:52,280 even if it's perverse, Like I'm not saying that everything attracted to is good, 489 00:36:52,440 --> 00:36:57,360 obviously sometimes it's bad, but hidden behind that is always something which is 490 00:36:57,400 --> 00:37:00,880 revealing reality to you. Which is why even when you're you're attracted to something 491 00:37:00,920 --> 00:37:06,599 that makes you sin in that sin, there's always an opportunity, right, 492 00:37:06,639 --> 00:37:08,559 There's always like an opening where you're like, oh, no, like why 493 00:37:08,559 --> 00:37:12,039 did I do that? Why did I pay attention to that? Why did 494 00:37:12,039 --> 00:37:15,280 I like why did I move down that road? And there's an opportunity to 495 00:37:15,280 --> 00:37:19,599 actually see God. Like you talked about this idea of the divine presence manifesting 496 00:37:19,639 --> 00:37:22,679 itself I think that happens almost every time you sin. That happens. It's 497 00:37:22,719 --> 00:37:28,320 like you sin and then you're like and then you can feel the burning or 498 00:37:28,360 --> 00:37:32,039 like this presence of God that's reminding you of how of how you misdirected your 499 00:37:32,199 --> 00:37:37,519 your will and your attention. Yeah, and that's that is something which you 500 00:37:37,559 --> 00:37:42,920 know, is it's a way in which I think God works out all our 501 00:37:43,000 --> 00:37:47,159 evil intentions for good. And you know, we talked about that hideous strength 502 00:37:47,199 --> 00:37:52,840 a little bit earlier. There's this part in that hideous strength where Jane is 503 00:37:52,920 --> 00:37:58,480 with Ransom, she's with the good guys, and she's learning the forms of 504 00:37:58,599 --> 00:38:02,679 things by direct the quaintance with their goodness. So the forms of the are 505 00:38:02,719 --> 00:38:07,480 the archons of the planets are coming and revealing themselves, and she is becoming 506 00:38:07,519 --> 00:38:12,159 acquainted through that with God. And at the same time, her husband, 507 00:38:12,320 --> 00:38:16,480 from whom she's been separated, is learning the same goodness because he's drawn into 508 00:38:16,519 --> 00:38:22,840 the objective room where the bad guys systematically pervert even the most mundane of things. 509 00:38:23,199 --> 00:38:28,519 So there's a set of dots which seem to be forming a pattern, 510 00:38:28,559 --> 00:38:32,440 and yet they're not quite forming a pattern. There's beautiful art which has ugliness 511 00:38:32,599 --> 00:38:37,880 just stuck on top of it. And the mundane nature of the evil is 512 00:38:38,079 --> 00:38:43,199 meant to lead Mark to see that the only thing there is is evil lack 513 00:38:43,199 --> 00:38:46,719 of pattern, But he actually it says in the story, Lewis says, 514 00:38:47,199 --> 00:38:52,440 in that moment, through seeing the perversions of these things, Mark came to 515 00:38:52,480 --> 00:38:54,800 be conscious in a way that he never was before that if there's a bent, 516 00:38:55,000 --> 00:39:00,559 there must be a strait. So you know, God wants to teach 517 00:39:00,679 --> 00:39:07,239 us of his own goodness by acquaintance with the goodness. But in divine providence, 518 00:39:07,239 --> 00:39:12,239 when we sin, we can also learn of goodness after we sin by 519 00:39:12,239 --> 00:39:15,440 repentance, because we taste the bad and then God says repent we turn back 520 00:39:15,480 --> 00:39:17,880 and we see it by contrast, and then yeah, that habituates us to 521 00:39:17,960 --> 00:39:22,000 seek the good before we seek the bad. Yeah, that's absolutely right. 522 00:39:22,079 --> 00:39:25,719 And you see that happening all around us right now, which is that you 523 00:39:25,760 --> 00:39:31,840 know, certain forces are trying to twist reality into fantastical shapes and into upside 524 00:39:31,840 --> 00:39:38,000 down shapes, you know, the upside down patterns, and what it ultimately 525 00:39:38,079 --> 00:39:44,480 will do is restore truths. You know, it'll be a painful road for 526 00:39:44,559 --> 00:39:46,199 that to happen. It's painful, and it's gonna it's not it's going to 527 00:39:46,280 --> 00:39:50,400 get worse, folks. I think most people know that by now things are 528 00:39:50,400 --> 00:39:52,639 going to get worse. Things are going to get crazier. You know, 529 00:39:52,679 --> 00:39:54,599 the carnival is going to increase, and the and the clowns are going to 530 00:39:54,719 --> 00:40:00,440 rule. But you know, when you you, when you sadly are with 531 00:40:00,480 --> 00:40:05,519 the clown king, then all it does is remind you of what is true. 532 00:40:05,559 --> 00:40:08,559 Like it, because it's painful and it's ridiculous, and so it's actually 533 00:40:08,920 --> 00:40:15,840 secretly shining a light on the true nature of kingship, like the return to 534 00:40:15,880 --> 00:40:19,760 the King ultimately in the end. But I think so at least we can, 535 00:40:19,960 --> 00:40:22,199 you know. That's why I always say I'm a short term pessimist, 536 00:40:22,280 --> 00:40:25,840 but I'm a long term optimist. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I 537 00:40:25,960 --> 00:40:32,440 think one of the things I've seen over the past several years is that people's 538 00:40:32,519 --> 00:40:37,880 I don't know how exactly to put it, but their plausibility structure has kind 539 00:40:37,920 --> 00:40:43,440 of been broken down because people have been disillusioned by you know, we might 540 00:40:43,559 --> 00:40:47,119 call it the establishment, the intellectual establishment. They say, wait a second, 541 00:40:47,119 --> 00:40:50,960 a lot of this stuff is really, really bizarre. I don't buy 542 00:40:51,039 --> 00:40:53,840 it. As a consequence, a lot of people, I think have really 543 00:40:53,920 --> 00:40:59,519 been attracted the things which are genuinely silly. But by the same principle, 544 00:40:59,559 --> 00:41:01,519 a lot of people have been attracted to what is not genuinely silly, but 545 00:41:01,559 --> 00:41:06,239 before they would have thought it's genuinely silly. I e. Christianity. Yeah, 546 00:41:06,840 --> 00:41:09,239 and the breaking down of the plausibility structure. It's a crisis and an 547 00:41:09,280 --> 00:41:13,880 opportunity. It's a crisis because people can embrace the genuinely nutty stuff, which 548 00:41:13,920 --> 00:41:16,079 is going to be bad for them spiritually and intellectually, but they can also 549 00:41:16,239 --> 00:41:22,000 embrace the true nuttiness, which is the foolishness of God revealed in the Cross 550 00:41:22,039 --> 00:41:25,639 of Christ. And I've seen that ladder point happen in people I never would 551 00:41:25,679 --> 00:41:30,559 have expected it to happen to and and I just find that super, super 552 00:41:31,440 --> 00:41:35,400 exciting. So it is, it's an exciting time. It's a wild and 553 00:41:35,519 --> 00:41:38,320 exciting time. And I think that you know, you know, I hate 554 00:41:38,360 --> 00:41:42,760 making active predictions, but I think I do think that what we're going to 555 00:41:42,840 --> 00:41:47,599 see is while the world is getting crazier and crazier, and as people accept 556 00:41:47,639 --> 00:41:52,400 things that you know, we would have thought was impossible, you know, 557 00:41:53,920 --> 00:41:58,480 just twenty years ago, that people would accept it as they As this kind 558 00:41:58,519 --> 00:42:01,480 of becomes as this insantive it becomes mainstream, we're going to see a little 559 00:42:01,599 --> 00:42:07,320 arc you know, that's going to start to become more and more. It's 560 00:42:07,360 --> 00:42:09,719 going to congregate, you could say, you know, in Christianity, we're 561 00:42:09,760 --> 00:42:15,440 going to see very intelligent, conscious people that are going to become Christian And 562 00:42:15,559 --> 00:42:17,639 it's going to be it's always going to be a minority, but it's going 563 00:42:17,679 --> 00:42:22,760 to be a very strong end and lucid minority amongst the kind of increasing madness. 564 00:42:23,199 --> 00:42:25,599 So I think that's something we can hope for, and it's something that 565 00:42:25,679 --> 00:42:30,480 we can also find joy in, like you said, because you know, 566 00:42:30,639 --> 00:42:37,000 I'm seeing amazing people that are that I that I never would have thought also 567 00:42:37,039 --> 00:42:43,199 would become Christian and Orthodox and are converting. And I hear wild things like 568 00:42:43,280 --> 00:42:45,719 I meet I meet people that I haven't talked to in years and they're like, 569 00:42:45,760 --> 00:42:49,280 oh yeah, and it's just normal for them to go to church when 570 00:42:49,480 --> 00:42:53,679 just five years ago they were absolute atheists and completely and so so it is 571 00:42:53,760 --> 00:42:57,519 a time, I mean, it's a time to weep because things are getting 572 00:42:57,559 --> 00:43:00,000 crazy, But I think there's also there's also a place rejoicing as well. 573 00:43:00,920 --> 00:43:05,239 Yeah, yeah, So you know, all in light of all this, 574 00:43:06,280 --> 00:43:12,440 what would you say to a person who is kind of in the midst of 575 00:43:12,840 --> 00:43:15,320 the kind of collapse of the plausibility structure. They don't know what to believe. 576 00:43:15,360 --> 00:43:19,000 And I think it's kind of scary, you know, suddenly you have 577 00:43:19,079 --> 00:43:23,280 no categories with which to assess reality. You have no way of differentiating what's 578 00:43:23,320 --> 00:43:29,880 nonsensical from what's actually legitimate. So let's say that that person comes to you, 579 00:43:30,039 --> 00:43:34,039 they're in a state of crisis. Uh, they ask you, why 580 00:43:34,639 --> 00:43:38,920 Christ? What is your answer to that? Like? Christ? Well, 581 00:43:40,159 --> 00:43:45,480 so, I mean, I think that the incarnation becomes the key to re 582 00:43:45,960 --> 00:43:51,760 establishing a structure of reality, you know, because you want you realize that 583 00:43:51,880 --> 00:43:54,800 in fact, reality isn't just a bunch of facts, that reality has to 584 00:43:54,840 --> 00:43:59,679 be framed, that reality, reality has to be anchored in purpose and so 585 00:44:00,400 --> 00:44:05,119 on. Once you notice that, especially as you see the things fall apart, 586 00:44:05,599 --> 00:44:07,760 you know, and you see that if they're not anchored in purpose, 587 00:44:07,800 --> 00:44:12,320 then they go stray and they become insane and tyrannical and mad. The question 588 00:44:12,480 --> 00:44:15,840 of what it is that is the highest anchor becomes a plausible question to answer, 589 00:44:17,280 --> 00:44:21,119 a plausible question to ask, which is that, now that you see 590 00:44:21,159 --> 00:44:23,559 that the world has to be anchored in purpose, what is the highest purpose? 591 00:44:24,000 --> 00:44:30,880 What is the one purpose that cannot be weaponized, that cannot become a 592 00:44:31,039 --> 00:44:36,840 tyrant or you know, a kind of demon ruling over you. And you 593 00:44:36,920 --> 00:44:40,239 know, I think that we can argue that self sacrificial love is the one. 594 00:44:40,639 --> 00:44:45,440 There is really nothing if you work it through in your mind, all 595 00:44:45,519 --> 00:44:52,800 the other virtues, all the other things can become can become torturous and horrible. 596 00:44:52,360 --> 00:44:58,719 But the relationship of the king that gives himself to others, that's it. 597 00:44:59,039 --> 00:45:00,239 Like, that's the key. That's the top of the hierarchy, right, 598 00:45:00,280 --> 00:45:04,360 the top of the higherarchy is not the king that just rules on others. 599 00:45:04,440 --> 00:45:07,880 It's the king that rules and gives themselves simultaneously. It's like, you 600 00:45:08,000 --> 00:45:10,920 can't beat that story. You can't go any higher. And that is the 601 00:45:10,960 --> 00:45:14,679 story of the Cross, you know. And so you could say, well, 602 00:45:15,360 --> 00:45:16,599 I like it. I kind of believe in it, but I don't 603 00:45:16,719 --> 00:45:21,960 like that. It's this actual person that was born two thousand years ago that 604 00:45:22,239 --> 00:45:24,280 revealed this to us, and and and brought us to participate in that. 605 00:45:24,519 --> 00:45:28,920 Well, you're gonna you can run around in circles as much as you want, 606 00:45:29,119 --> 00:45:31,239 but that's the way, that's where it happened, and that's where it 607 00:45:31,400 --> 00:45:34,960 was revealed to us, and that's the story that we can participate in, 608 00:45:35,679 --> 00:45:39,440 you know, truly when you engage into the community the body that was born 609 00:45:39,480 --> 00:45:45,039 out of that out of that reality. And so so that's why I think, 610 00:45:45,119 --> 00:45:49,320 I think that it's you know, ultimately, and ultimately what happens too. 611 00:45:49,400 --> 00:45:52,079 What's interesting is that even as the world falls apart, and there's still 612 00:45:52,119 --> 00:45:55,679 a remainder of these goods, and it remain and a tortuous version of the 613 00:45:57,119 --> 00:46:00,559 virtues that used to guide us, and when people strip them and start to 614 00:46:00,599 --> 00:46:05,800 look at them, they'll realize that it's always Christ hiding behind there. You 615 00:46:05,840 --> 00:46:08,800 know, as you kind of straighten it and you remove the parasitic aspect of 616 00:46:08,920 --> 00:46:14,440 these different values that people are are worshiping right now, you realize that it's 617 00:46:15,280 --> 00:46:19,519 it's Christ that's hiding behind it. Yeah. Yeah. And my brother, 618 00:46:20,800 --> 00:46:25,079 my younger brother, he became when he was a teenager kind of and what 619 00:46:25,199 --> 00:46:32,239 I would call an unhappy agnostic. For some time and it was really exciting 620 00:46:32,360 --> 00:46:37,880 to me to watch him gradually then come to say, wait, I think 621 00:46:37,039 --> 00:46:45,400 God Israel. It was a genuine intellectual and spiritual struggle that I think he 622 00:46:45,519 --> 00:46:50,760 handled very responsibly and not jumping into anything, trying to think through all the 623 00:46:50,800 --> 00:46:54,880 issues. And then I remember one day that he said, I believe Christ 624 00:46:55,000 --> 00:47:00,639 is Lord. And it's because you know, he looked at history, and 625 00:47:00,079 --> 00:47:04,920 as you look at history, it really does seem that there is a center 626 00:47:05,199 --> 00:47:10,039 to it, and that Christ really is at the hearts of we can call 627 00:47:10,079 --> 00:47:15,480 it the human story, every human story. And this struck me when I 628 00:47:15,679 --> 00:47:20,880 was working through my crisis of faith, which is that how is it that 629 00:47:22,360 --> 00:47:28,719 this obscure Jew is crucified in the first century, a tiny little group of 630 00:47:28,800 --> 00:47:31,559 people announce he's Lord of the world and say, by the way, he's 631 00:47:31,559 --> 00:47:36,000 going to reign over all nations before they're more than a little cult. And 632 00:47:36,079 --> 00:47:42,719 three centuries later, the Roman emperor is abolishing sacrifice. Yeah, that's an 633 00:47:42,760 --> 00:47:51,199 extraordinary thing. And for me, I sometimes engage in apologetics relative to Judaism, 634 00:47:51,239 --> 00:47:53,519 who argue Jesus is not the Messiah from scripture, and they say, 635 00:47:53,599 --> 00:47:57,679 well, when the Messia comes, will be obvious because you'll look outside and 636 00:47:57,800 --> 00:48:00,480 people will be worshiping the God of Abraham, and I say, well, 637 00:48:00,639 --> 00:48:04,119 look out your window around pass overseas and then look at thousands of gentiles making 638 00:48:04,119 --> 00:48:07,239 a pilgrimage to Jerusalem to honor the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in 639 00:48:07,280 --> 00:48:09,559 the name of the crucified Jew. That's an extraordinary thing. You know, 640 00:48:09,639 --> 00:48:13,360 that alone does not prove he's the Messiah, but it does put him to 641 00:48:13,400 --> 00:48:16,800 the top of the list and plausibility candidates. Yeah, well, I always 642 00:48:17,079 --> 00:48:21,360 used to think I used I used to have this. At some point I 643 00:48:21,440 --> 00:48:25,400 realized because people because it's also because I grew up evangelical, which which somehow 644 00:48:25,559 --> 00:48:29,440 obscured some of this to me, because you know, I grew in the 645 00:48:29,519 --> 00:48:34,360 evangelical church. There's this idea that it's it's it's a self contradictory idea because 646 00:48:34,360 --> 00:48:37,159 they believe in everything in the in the Creed. But then they also think 647 00:48:37,199 --> 00:48:39,679 Constantine is the devil and that the conversion of Rome is the beginning is the 648 00:48:39,760 --> 00:48:44,039 fall of Christianity. Right, It's like woo uh. You know, but 649 00:48:44,159 --> 00:48:47,840 then when I actually realized that Christ, you know, the idea that Christ 650 00:48:47,880 --> 00:48:52,000 would become its king, and that he would that he would rule over the 651 00:48:52,559 --> 00:48:55,199 rule over the gentiles. It's like, well, that happened. I mean, 652 00:48:55,239 --> 00:48:59,000 it took three hundred years, but it still happened. And when you 653 00:48:59,079 --> 00:49:00,679 read with Saint Paul's saying, it's like Saint Paul knew it was happening. 654 00:49:00,960 --> 00:49:06,400 Where Saint Paul says he is at this time, Christ is ascending the principalities. 655 00:49:06,639 --> 00:49:09,320 He's he's subjugating all these principalities to him. It's like you might not 656 00:49:09,400 --> 00:49:13,320 see the fruits of that yet, but just wait, you know, and 657 00:49:13,480 --> 00:49:17,119 so and then it happened. So it's a it's a pretty astounding it's a 658 00:49:17,159 --> 00:49:21,760 pretty astounding thing. And and you're right. I do also think that, 659 00:49:22,199 --> 00:49:27,159 you know, there is no way to view history outside of Christ anymore. 660 00:49:27,719 --> 00:49:30,199 You just can't. You can't view the world outside of what Christ came to 661 00:49:30,320 --> 00:49:35,960 reveal. And you know, even as we move towards weird internationalism and globalism, 662 00:49:36,239 --> 00:49:38,719 you know a lot of the basic values that underlie that, even though 663 00:49:38,760 --> 00:49:44,079 they become twisted. You know, it is a kind of the idea that 664 00:49:44,159 --> 00:49:46,719 you should have compassion for your enemies, the idea that you should all this 665 00:49:46,880 --> 00:49:50,519 kind of weird stuff, like even like the rules of war and all that 666 00:49:50,599 --> 00:49:53,679 stuff. Would you think that that's just normal. It's normal that we would 667 00:49:53,719 --> 00:49:58,320 have rules of engagement and rules of war and that you wouldn't just slaughter your 668 00:49:58,440 --> 00:50:00,360 enemies pretend, you know, and then just a lot of you. And 669 00:50:00,480 --> 00:50:04,440 he's like, if you if you believe in these in these these values and 670 00:50:04,519 --> 00:50:07,960 the idea of helping the weak and the marginal, like this is all Christian 671 00:50:07,000 --> 00:50:10,360 stuff, Guys, I don't know what to say. Yeah, I you 672 00:50:10,440 --> 00:50:15,639 know, sometimes we can get kind of we can roll our eyes that you 673 00:50:15,719 --> 00:50:19,920 know this or that religious leader generically says war is bad, and you're like, 674 00:50:19,960 --> 00:50:22,159 well, yeah, of course war is bad. And then I realized 675 00:50:22,159 --> 00:50:25,559 one day that is not something that everybody has taken for granted, there's a 676 00:50:25,599 --> 00:50:30,000 reason the cult of war is central to Yeah, lots and lots of cultures. 677 00:50:30,519 --> 00:50:32,960 Julia sees it. So this is the thing about Christianity too, is 678 00:50:32,960 --> 00:50:37,599 like Christianity is ripe with war and horrible and tragy and everything. The difference 679 00:50:37,719 --> 00:50:42,119 is they always have to make excuses for it. They have to try to 680 00:50:42,320 --> 00:50:44,639 hide it, they have to deny. And you might think that's nothing, 681 00:50:44,679 --> 00:50:50,440 but Julius Caesar bragged that he slaughtered a million million galls like it was glory 682 00:50:50,559 --> 00:50:53,199 to him. It wasn't something that he had to hide or apologize for or 683 00:50:53,320 --> 00:50:57,440 like sweep under the carpet or try to find some excuse for. It's like, 684 00:50:57,519 --> 00:51:02,039 no, it's like when when you know, when Americans bomb now you 685 00:51:02,119 --> 00:51:08,559 know, Hiroshima and Nagasaki, they have to find some moral twisty reason to 686 00:51:08,719 --> 00:51:13,280 like make that plausible. They can't just do it with that. And I 687 00:51:13,400 --> 00:51:15,000 and I, first of all, I think it's a horrible thing that happened, 688 00:51:15,559 --> 00:51:19,719 you know, But but after that they have to make excuses for it. 689 00:51:19,800 --> 00:51:22,960 They can't just be like, you know what, this is how we 690 00:51:22,039 --> 00:51:25,480 win war, this is how we beat our enemies. And just like you 691 00:51:25,559 --> 00:51:30,679 know, let's say, uh, just just revel in the blood of your 692 00:51:30,800 --> 00:51:34,800 enemies like the Scandinavians did. It's like, you think, it's just weird 693 00:51:34,840 --> 00:51:39,199 to realize just how people don't can't see how much you know, crisis transformed 694 00:51:39,239 --> 00:51:45,119 reality. Yeah, yeah, absolutely, And I think that connects to this 695 00:51:45,280 --> 00:51:51,960 theme you see in scripture and outside of scripture of you know, liturgical warfare. 696 00:51:52,599 --> 00:51:55,519 And it's interesting to me there's so many cultures have a story of creation 697 00:51:55,920 --> 00:52:00,760 through warfare, and then you read Genesis and you know you've got God forming, 698 00:52:00,840 --> 00:52:04,800 filling, brightening the world in these six creation days and then he enters 699 00:52:04,800 --> 00:52:07,159 into his rest. But you follow the language of rest through scripture. It's 700 00:52:07,199 --> 00:52:13,199 also used in relation to warfare. So there seems to be I think some 701 00:52:13,440 --> 00:52:17,840 connection, some thematic connection between what's going on in Genesis and the broad idea 702 00:52:19,400 --> 00:52:22,679 of warfare. But the way in which Christ takes it is that you know, 703 00:52:22,840 --> 00:52:27,599 these cultures say warfare upols the world. Blood is what keeps the world 704 00:52:27,840 --> 00:52:31,039 pumping, and Christ says, yes, it is what keeps the world company. 705 00:52:31,400 --> 00:52:37,239 It's my blood, my blood. And I think that has really profound 706 00:52:37,280 --> 00:52:44,159 implications for what the Church's mission is in relation to her liturgy. That you 707 00:52:44,199 --> 00:52:46,800 know in scripture, you know you've got the idea of the heavenly court, 708 00:52:46,920 --> 00:52:51,639 the heavenly council. You follow that theme through though you realize the heavenly court 709 00:52:52,039 --> 00:52:54,320 is God's heavenly temple, and that's where liturgy is going on. So Christ 710 00:52:54,400 --> 00:52:58,079 is king and priests. He's king because he's priests and priests because it's Kain 711 00:52:58,480 --> 00:53:00,360 and God is ruling the world through the heavenly Liturgy, and then you go 712 00:53:00,400 --> 00:53:04,440 to the Orthodox liturgy. Why is it that we are praying for, you 713 00:53:04,519 --> 00:53:07,840 know, everything conceivable, We're praying for fruit, We're praying for you know, 714 00:53:07,360 --> 00:53:10,119 the nations, be at peace, the unity of all mankind. And 715 00:53:10,199 --> 00:53:14,639 then we have all these names. We're putting these names into the Eucharus. 716 00:53:14,719 --> 00:53:20,239 Well, this because the liturgy is the throne room of God. This is 717 00:53:20,280 --> 00:53:23,960 where we enter into God's reign over the world. And I think we really 718 00:53:24,159 --> 00:53:28,199 need to, and I say this to myself as much as to anyone else, 719 00:53:28,880 --> 00:53:32,920 recover the sense that, no, this is actually something real. There 720 00:53:34,159 --> 00:53:39,599 is ontological significance to writing a person's name in the diptychs and having them prayed 721 00:53:39,639 --> 00:53:45,519 for. It changes things. When we do this, God really does take 722 00:53:45,599 --> 00:53:51,119 that into the logos, so that he's shaping the world in and through his 723 00:53:51,320 --> 00:54:02,639 union with those those intentions. So I know that's absolutely right. It's difficult, 724 00:54:02,800 --> 00:54:06,400 Like I find it hard, Like I'll be honest with you, like 725 00:54:06,480 --> 00:54:09,000 I struggle to totally believe that, you know, but I know it when 726 00:54:09,079 --> 00:54:14,679 I stop and I look at how how it happens for me. Like let's 727 00:54:14,719 --> 00:54:19,079 just say, like if I carry someone's name in my heart. That transformed 728 00:54:19,440 --> 00:54:22,280 everything about them, right, It transforms you know. If I if I 729 00:54:22,360 --> 00:54:27,119 am angry with someone and I'm annoyed with them, and I say, okay, 730 00:54:27,199 --> 00:54:30,480 I'm just going to carry that person's name in my in my heart with 731 00:54:30,679 --> 00:54:36,119 good intention, I will direct good intention towards that person. Then it changes 732 00:54:36,199 --> 00:54:38,480 everything, you know, and it will transform my perception of them. It'll 733 00:54:38,519 --> 00:54:43,000 transform my actions towards them. It'll transform everything. And so it's like, 734 00:54:43,159 --> 00:54:46,440 that's actually how it works. And so then the idea that we would take 735 00:54:46,719 --> 00:54:52,599 these names and that we would raise them up higher into the divine will and 736 00:54:52,719 --> 00:54:57,559 into the divine uh, into divine providence, then of course it would do 737 00:54:57,679 --> 00:55:00,960 the same at a cosmic level. I don't it. It just makes sense 738 00:55:00,039 --> 00:55:04,920 because we know that that's what happens within us. It's just it's harder because 739 00:55:04,920 --> 00:55:07,360 we're selfish and we're we think we're little God. So we think it pretty 740 00:55:07,400 --> 00:55:09,639 much ends with us, you know. And that happens to me all the 741 00:55:09,719 --> 00:55:14,440 time, uh, you know, and I forget to pray for people constantly, 742 00:55:14,519 --> 00:55:15,400 you know. People ask me to pray for them, and I usually 743 00:55:15,480 --> 00:55:17,679 do it for a few weeks and then I forget and it's like, man, 744 00:55:17,960 --> 00:55:20,719 you know, it's like if I, like you said, if I 745 00:55:20,920 --> 00:55:27,119 understood the power of taking people's names and and you know, and and and 746 00:55:27,239 --> 00:55:30,480 bringing them up into the throne room of God, I would, yeah, 747 00:55:31,119 --> 00:55:38,760 probably have more perseverance. Yeah yeah. So, so how has your kind 748 00:55:38,800 --> 00:55:45,159 of focus on symbolism and all of this stuff. How has that, if 749 00:55:45,199 --> 00:55:51,599 I can ask it this way, shaped the way in which you read the 750 00:55:51,800 --> 00:55:57,760 story of your own life. Not to make you sound self important something like 751 00:55:57,880 --> 00:56:01,559 that, but are you comfortable I suppose reading the story of your own life 752 00:56:01,599 --> 00:56:07,480 symbolically? I think so. But I think we I think it's dangerous. 753 00:56:07,559 --> 00:56:09,079 We have to be a little careful, you know. The way that I 754 00:56:09,199 --> 00:56:14,280 do it is I try not to be too deliberate about it, like you 755 00:56:14,360 --> 00:56:19,400 said, not to become not to become self absorbed. But I'm grateful for 756 00:56:19,519 --> 00:56:22,199 the insights that come to me. Maybe I would say it that way. 757 00:56:22,280 --> 00:56:27,440 It's like, there are moments when I see parallels in the things that I'm 758 00:56:27,519 --> 00:56:31,599 doing and the things that are happening to me, and I see the parallels 759 00:56:31,639 --> 00:56:37,280 with scripture. Sometimes it's not sometimes it's frightful, it's sometimes it's actually quite 760 00:56:37,320 --> 00:56:42,360 frightful. But nonetheless I try to be grateful when I see that that that 761 00:56:42,599 --> 00:56:46,679 that when I can see the relationship between these stories, but I would be 762 00:56:47,000 --> 00:56:51,920 I would warn people to be careful because when you become and I say this 763 00:56:52,119 --> 00:56:54,880 like really because that you know, I've seen it happen to many people where 764 00:56:55,119 --> 00:57:00,199 when they start to think this way, then they become equivalent of paranoid, 765 00:57:00,920 --> 00:57:06,480 because what happens is that they become very self conscious and they start to analyze 766 00:57:06,559 --> 00:57:08,239 all the things that are happening to them and all the things that they're doing 767 00:57:08,840 --> 00:57:13,159 in these symbolic structures, and then all of a sudden, you know, 768 00:57:13,280 --> 00:57:16,719 before they know it, they think that they're being spied on by you know, 769 00:57:16,920 --> 00:57:20,880 the Illuminati, and that they're you know, and that you know, 770 00:57:21,039 --> 00:57:23,519 they're demons that are constantly pulling at them this in that direction, and that's 771 00:57:23,519 --> 00:57:25,880 why this is happening, and this is happening because of this, and you 772 00:57:25,920 --> 00:57:28,960 know, it's like if something bad happens to them, then all of a 773 00:57:28,960 --> 00:57:30,679 sudden they're trying to wonder if there's someone casting a spell on them, you 774 00:57:30,760 --> 00:57:34,840 know, that kind of stuff. That is a very dangerous place to find 775 00:57:34,880 --> 00:57:37,480 yourself in I think, which is why I think the best way to do 776 00:57:37,559 --> 00:57:43,000 it is to focus on God and on the story of the scripture, on 777 00:57:43,039 --> 00:57:45,960 the liturgy, on participating on your family, on all the things that you 778 00:57:46,039 --> 00:57:50,960 can have power on, and not focus on your own story so much. 779 00:57:51,039 --> 00:57:54,679 But then once in a while, they'll be you will encounter some insight and 780 00:57:54,960 --> 00:58:00,239 and then you can try to be grateful that that God is using in this 781 00:58:00,360 --> 00:58:02,599 way or that you know that God is shining a light on moments in your 782 00:58:02,639 --> 00:58:07,159 life. But I wouldn't warn against doing that too much, like for those 783 00:58:07,239 --> 00:58:10,320 reasons. Yeah, yeah, I mean, the primary reality has got to 784 00:58:10,480 --> 00:58:16,480 be, you know, our direct relationship understood, not to exclude a relationship 785 00:58:16,519 --> 00:58:21,079 with the Church and zone our direct relationship with God and obedience to him. 786 00:58:21,159 --> 00:58:25,960 That obedience precedes wisdom, obedience precedes knowledge. If you don't have obedience, 787 00:58:27,440 --> 00:58:30,559 you might get like Adam did, knowledge, But because knowledge is ultimately rooted 788 00:58:30,599 --> 00:58:35,760 in God and we are smaller than God, if we try to get that 789 00:58:35,880 --> 00:58:38,719 knowledge directly, we're going to burst. We're going to burst open. And 790 00:58:38,840 --> 00:58:43,079 that's why I think there's a connection there with the way we talk about the 791 00:58:43,159 --> 00:58:45,280 Mother of God as the kind of archetype of the church. The Mother of 792 00:58:45,360 --> 00:58:50,920 God is more spacious than the heavens. It is only when God grows us 793 00:58:51,480 --> 00:58:54,719 to a sufficient size that we have the room to actually assimilate any knowledge. 794 00:58:54,760 --> 00:58:59,280 And the person who has grown to that size is a person who, like 795 00:58:59,400 --> 00:59:06,079 her, is defined by trust and obedience to His will. You know. 796 00:59:06,159 --> 00:59:08,480 One of the things also that I think is because it's interesting because what using 797 00:59:08,480 --> 00:59:12,719 the Mother of God's and example is a really good one because it says, 798 00:59:13,360 --> 00:59:15,599 you know, when this is one of my favorite passages about the Mother of 799 00:59:15,639 --> 00:59:21,079 God, which is that you know, when the when the the mages come 800 00:59:21,199 --> 00:59:24,039 to see her, it says that she gathered all these things in her heart. 801 00:59:25,119 --> 00:59:28,599 And I love that because it's like, first of all, that's symbolism. 802 00:59:28,639 --> 00:59:32,360 The word is actually symbolo. It's actually symbolism where she kind of gathers 803 00:59:32,400 --> 00:59:37,760 all these facts into her heart and she's basically like you get the sense that 804 00:59:37,880 --> 00:59:40,960 which she's starting to see the pattern. Now she sees it's like, oh, 805 00:59:42,119 --> 00:59:45,159 this is shown, this is manifesting something. You know. But there's 806 00:59:45,199 --> 00:59:51,719 a kind of a there's a kind of attentiveness that is balanced by you know, 807 00:59:51,960 --> 00:59:54,280 her discretion. You could say about it, right, It's like she 808 00:59:54,360 --> 00:59:59,480 didn't start talking about it. She didn't start telling everybody about what's happening. 809 00:59:59,559 --> 01:00:04,360 She just she's kind of gathered these these hints and these these events into her 810 01:00:04,440 --> 01:00:07,599 heart and meditating on them. I think that's the best approach, you know. 811 01:00:08,159 --> 01:00:12,360 Yeah, yeah, And in Luke and Axe, it's really cool. 812 01:00:12,880 --> 01:00:17,239 There really is an incredibly developed married church tsypology there. You know. One 813 01:00:17,280 --> 01:00:20,880 way to see it is, you know, the Holy Spirit overshadowing Mary and 814 01:00:20,920 --> 01:00:23,079 the Holy Spirit coming on the apostle of Pentecost while Mary is said to be 815 01:00:23,159 --> 01:00:27,760 there. It's described in the same ways, but also that she treasured up 816 01:00:27,760 --> 01:00:30,599 all these things in her heart, and Jesus will later say where your heart 817 01:00:30,639 --> 01:00:35,440 is or your treasure is also and then an acts there's this emphasis on the 818 01:00:35,599 --> 01:00:37,400 churches of one heart in one mind, and they held all of their wealth 819 01:00:37,480 --> 01:00:42,800 together in common, and there's this idea that, well, what is wealth 820 01:00:42,920 --> 01:00:45,800 really? We think of wealth. We're used to thinking of wealth as a 821 01:00:45,920 --> 01:00:50,719 tool to make you comfortable, But what's the difference between one billion dollars and 822 01:00:50,800 --> 01:00:53,960 fifty billion dollars as far as comfort goes? You're getting diminishing returns. What 823 01:00:54,400 --> 01:01:00,400 is wealth really wealth is, I think is it represents the degree to which 824 01:01:00,880 --> 01:01:04,119 you can realize, you know, your intentions for the world outside of yourself. 825 01:01:04,559 --> 01:01:07,599 Fifty billion dollars, you can directly shape and change a lot of things. 826 01:01:07,000 --> 01:01:10,280 And I think when scripture connects wealth to divine life, you know, 827 01:01:10,360 --> 01:01:15,840 the riches of God's glory. The idea is that in Christ we have received 828 01:01:15,880 --> 01:01:20,159 the treasury of God's own life we would say in Orthodoxy, his energies, 829 01:01:20,199 --> 01:01:27,280 his operations into ourselves. And then it is really the church at prayer which 830 01:01:27,599 --> 01:01:30,920 is the treasury of God's glory in the world. We are then taking that 831 01:01:31,519 --> 01:01:35,920 and directing it to shape and mold certain things, which goes back to what 832 01:01:35,960 --> 01:01:38,519 we were just talking about with the liturgy. And then you look through the 833 01:01:38,559 --> 01:01:44,199 Bible and there's really a huge amount of financial language in scripture. You know, 834 01:01:44,360 --> 01:01:46,880 buy without money, I advise you to buy from me gold refined by 835 01:01:46,960 --> 01:01:52,000 fire. There's all that stuff there. And thinking of the theo Toko says, 836 01:01:52,360 --> 01:01:53,880 more space than the heavens, who as this immense treasury, who is 837 01:01:53,960 --> 01:02:00,320 Christ himself in here is a good way of conceiving that. I think the 838 01:02:00,440 --> 01:02:05,480 other thing that I think can be difficult or problematic in quote unquote reading your 839 01:02:05,519 --> 01:02:12,519 own life symbolically is that people can and I include myself in this. If 840 01:02:12,559 --> 01:02:15,280 you see certain symbolic structures, it really seem to be there. There's a 841 01:02:15,320 --> 01:02:17,639 temptation of kind of self importance. I'm the center of history. Look at 842 01:02:17,679 --> 01:02:21,360 how God is directing my life. You know, I might as well be 843 01:02:21,400 --> 01:02:24,320 a biblical character. But I think what you always have to remind yourself of 844 01:02:24,519 --> 01:02:28,599 is, no, this doesn't mean that you're different from everyone else. It 845 01:02:28,719 --> 01:02:31,840 means you're like everyone else. Where those symbolic structures are really there because you 846 01:02:32,000 --> 01:02:39,360 read so. Names and life spans in the Bible often have symbolic significance. 847 01:02:39,519 --> 01:02:44,039 People Joseph dies at one hundred and ten years old, that has symbolic significance, 848 01:02:44,320 --> 01:02:47,239 Size at one hundred and twenty years old as symbolic significance. The names, 849 01:02:47,440 --> 01:02:51,719 even where the meaning is not explicitly drawn out, it really does seem 850 01:02:51,760 --> 01:02:55,239 to correspond to something about their life. I think that's true. I really 851 01:02:55,280 --> 01:03:01,000 think that is true in principle for everyone's life, even if we don't know 852 01:03:01,159 --> 01:03:06,119 what it is. I think in the final accounting of things, we're going 853 01:03:06,199 --> 01:03:08,480 to see some symbolic meaning to all this stuff. One of the things that 854 01:03:08,599 --> 01:03:15,559 that was very striking for me in my personal life. And I'm going to 855 01:03:15,599 --> 01:03:20,079 have her on to talk about all of this. But when I was eighteen 856 01:03:20,320 --> 01:03:24,639 nineteen, I did a forty day akathist to Saint Nicholas to find an Orthodox 857 01:03:24,719 --> 01:03:29,880 spouse, and it just so happened that the day of my engagement, and 858 01:03:30,000 --> 01:03:34,320 I did not plan, this was precisely four thousand days after I completed that 859 01:03:34,519 --> 01:03:37,239 forty day set of acathysts. And I think, you know, if you 860 01:03:37,360 --> 01:03:39,679 just look at a lot of stories in a lot of people's lives, and 861 01:03:39,880 --> 01:03:45,519 a lot of stories and who are you married now? Oh? Congratulations, 862 01:03:45,880 --> 01:03:47,920 thank you, thank you. Yeah, so we got married in junior. 863 01:03:49,039 --> 01:03:52,880 Glory to God. Yeah, glory to God. Glorried about so seeing that 864 01:03:53,000 --> 01:03:58,360 in my life, I think what we need to do is we take these 865 01:03:58,440 --> 01:04:01,840 things as a sign of the way the world always works, not a sign 866 01:04:01,920 --> 01:04:05,719 that we are set apart or special or something like that. Yeah, that's 867 01:04:05,760 --> 01:04:09,639 a good that's a good way to talk about it. It's a good call 868 01:04:09,840 --> 01:04:12,079 because, like you said, like we've we've been saying since the beginning, 869 01:04:12,119 --> 01:04:15,679 in some ways those the patterns. The patterns in scripture are the patterns that 870 01:04:15,800 --> 01:04:20,119 in form reality. There are the patterns that make reality real and to make 871 01:04:20,800 --> 01:04:24,639 and so when we see them, we actually shouldn't be surprised, you know. 872 01:04:25,239 --> 01:04:28,639 And when and if we see them, you know, only occasionally, 873 01:04:28,760 --> 01:04:32,000 it's it's actually a reproach on us that we're blind to how in fact God 874 01:04:32,119 --> 01:04:36,159 is always working through through things and is always you know, bringing things together 875 01:04:36,320 --> 01:04:41,960 towards their goods. So yeah, and and you know, one of those 876 01:04:42,000 --> 01:04:46,400 things that when I was kind of still going through many years ago, you 877 01:04:46,480 --> 01:04:50,719 know, doubts about Christianity, one of the things that struck me was, 878 01:04:51,320 --> 01:04:56,599 you know, there's all these patterns and scripture, you know, and the 879 01:04:56,639 --> 01:04:59,760 Book of Kings or Exodus for example. You know, the temple was built 880 01:04:59,760 --> 01:05:02,599 for eighty years exactly, twelve times forty after the Exodus, and oh that 881 01:05:02,679 --> 01:05:05,920 seems a little too perfect. But then you come into that period of history 882 01:05:06,119 --> 01:05:10,320 which is close enough to us, and we all documented enough relative to us 883 01:05:10,719 --> 01:05:15,000 that we can say, okay, no, these numbers are real. One 884 01:05:15,000 --> 01:05:16,519 of the things that struck me is wait a second, the temple was destroyed 885 01:05:16,559 --> 01:05:23,639 forty years after the death and resurrection of Christ. And that little fact kind 886 01:05:23,679 --> 01:05:29,039 of wormed its way into me because it suggested that these patterns are not just 887 01:05:29,199 --> 01:05:32,280 literary, they are a real feature of the world. So that's been just 888 01:05:32,320 --> 01:05:38,920 one of the exciting things I've followed through over the last ten years. So 889 01:05:39,159 --> 01:05:43,199 we don't have that much time left, but I did want to just ask, 890 01:05:43,800 --> 01:05:55,039 how does your project of universal history relate to the kind of mission of 891 01:05:55,159 --> 01:06:01,159 the church in taking all nations into the story story of Christ. You know, 892 01:06:01,639 --> 01:06:04,280 the home Christ is present in each one of us, not a little 893 01:06:04,280 --> 01:06:08,079 bit of Christ, the whole Christ is present in each particle of view Christ. 894 01:06:08,400 --> 01:06:12,760 The whole story of Christ, by implication, must be manifest in those 895 01:06:12,880 --> 01:06:15,760 nations whom He takes into himself. How do you see that project sacramentally? 896 01:06:16,360 --> 01:06:18,320 Yeah, I think, I think, I mean, I think you hit 897 01:06:18,360 --> 01:06:21,400 the nail on the head. And and you know, as we just by 898 01:06:21,440 --> 01:06:25,400 the way, as we talk about universal history, I have to give a 899 01:06:25,440 --> 01:06:29,679 shout out to Richard Rowland obviously, because you know, in those universal history 900 01:06:29,679 --> 01:06:32,000 podcasts, I'm usually pretty passive, and he's the one who's like teaching me 901 01:06:32,440 --> 01:06:36,880 about all these great stories that often I know a little or I don't know 902 01:06:36,960 --> 01:06:42,199 at all, and so I've been really grateful at him to help that. 903 01:06:42,360 --> 01:06:45,360 But I think that you know, both of us, we kind of we 904 01:06:45,719 --> 01:06:49,239 started messaging each other on Facebook, I think several years ago, and realizing 905 01:06:49,320 --> 01:06:54,079 that we both love this. We both had this same vision which is similar 906 01:06:54,119 --> 01:06:58,840 to what you said, which is that if we believe that Christ created the 907 01:06:58,920 --> 01:07:04,400 world, believe that the divine Logos is that that orders you know, chaos 908 01:07:04,519 --> 01:07:11,719 into being, then the story of the logos should be hidden everywhere, and 909 01:07:11,960 --> 01:07:18,719 that the universal history that the ancients did is an example for us, a 910 01:07:18,840 --> 01:07:26,239 shining example for us at how people started to remember their own history through Christ, 911 01:07:26,960 --> 01:07:30,159 and how this is possible not only for them, it's possible for us 912 01:07:30,239 --> 01:07:32,719 now and it's possible for all the peoples of the world. That if you 913 01:07:32,920 --> 01:07:41,039 remember your story through the lens of Christ, then it actually shines brighter and 914 01:07:41,199 --> 01:07:45,119 it reveals more things about yourself, more things about your place in the world, 915 01:07:45,400 --> 01:07:49,639 and also your possible purpose for your people, for your family, for 916 01:07:50,760 --> 01:07:55,199 everything that you can participate in. And so, like you said, I 917 01:07:55,280 --> 01:07:59,559 think that ultimately this is a work that is not just something that happened a 918 01:07:59,599 --> 01:08:03,280 thousand years ago in Scandinavia or in Ethiopia, you know, fifteen hundred years 919 01:08:03,280 --> 01:08:09,239 ago or whatever. It's something that can still happen now and the you know, 920 01:08:09,639 --> 01:08:13,480 and some of it and it's weird because this is gonna this is also 921 01:08:13,599 --> 01:08:17,239 gonna scrape at people and the wrong, wrong. But some of it has 922 01:08:17,279 --> 01:08:21,600 to do with fiction, and some of it has to do with what we 923 01:08:21,800 --> 01:08:29,039 most we usually understand. It's kind of factuality. And and there are moments 924 01:08:29,119 --> 01:08:33,880 when those when the bridge between the two will will will collapse, and you 925 01:08:33,920 --> 01:08:39,600 don't have to be too scared of that. You know, you also have 926 01:08:39,680 --> 01:08:41,720 to not I mean, obviously you have to be careful, but you have 927 01:08:41,800 --> 01:08:44,000 to be not too scared of that. And so, you know, the 928 01:08:44,079 --> 01:08:46,479 way we're doing God's Dog, for example, this graphic novel series that we're 929 01:08:46,520 --> 01:08:53,159 doing, you know, we're we're using fairy tale tropes with saints and Bible 930 01:08:53,239 --> 01:08:59,000 stories to kind of help people see the structures in the Bible and in the 931 01:08:59,159 --> 01:09:04,319 history and in the geography. And I know that some people will probably find 932 01:09:04,399 --> 01:09:08,880 it, find it's the wrong way to go, but you know that I 933 01:09:09,000 --> 01:09:13,479 think that we are tapping into something that will surprise people and will help them 934 01:09:13,640 --> 01:09:16,520 look back now at their own history, at the Bible and understand it better 935 01:09:16,640 --> 01:09:21,840 because of some of the narrative connections that we're making through this fictional story, 936 01:09:24,159 --> 01:09:32,600 right, right, And so what intellectual trends do you find most exciting? 937 01:09:32,760 --> 01:09:36,880 Now? Just outside the range of people who are already kind of familiar with 938 01:09:38,079 --> 01:09:42,079 universal history symbolism, so just a totally group of people wouldn't have heard of 939 01:09:42,439 --> 01:09:47,840 you and your work, what intellectual trends do you think are should be brought 940 01:09:47,920 --> 01:09:53,239 in and can have a positive influence, And who is most receptive to this 941 01:09:53,479 --> 01:09:56,800 kind of way of thinking? Well, I think I mean, if you 942 01:09:56,960 --> 01:10:00,079 look at the conversation that I've had on my channel, you'll see that in 943 01:10:00,159 --> 01:10:04,319 some ways a lot of the people I'm talking to are are are that. 944 01:10:04,560 --> 01:10:08,279 So I think that a lot of cognitive scientists, you know, like John 945 01:10:08,359 --> 01:10:13,880 Raveak and and other people like that, or people that at least try to 946 01:10:15,039 --> 01:10:19,600 connect you know, the most the most advanced visions of science with cognition and 947 01:10:19,680 --> 01:10:24,239 try to see how they're related, you know, although some of it can 948 01:10:24,359 --> 01:10:28,560 sometimes get messy and maybe a little chaotic. I think that those are very 949 01:10:28,640 --> 01:10:31,840 people that are very interesting, like Ian McGilchrist people like that that are trying 950 01:10:31,880 --> 01:10:38,159 to look at how consciousness works, they will come to very similar let's say, 951 01:10:38,199 --> 01:10:41,560 they'll come to very similar answers as what it is that we find in 952 01:10:41,640 --> 01:10:45,600 the Bible, and then engaging with them and talking about it in those terms 953 01:10:45,039 --> 01:10:50,600 can help move the conversation further and help bridge a lot of the a lot 954 01:10:50,720 --> 01:10:55,880 of the let's say, the gaps that exist between secular and religious culture. 955 01:10:55,960 --> 01:10:58,800 And I think that not only is it good for the secular people, it's 956 01:10:58,800 --> 01:11:01,960 also good for the religious people too, because the religious people sometimes we have 957 01:11:02,199 --> 01:11:06,520 these this kind of inner language that we've developed in this kind of interreligious language 958 01:11:06,680 --> 01:11:12,000 which is useful but can also be fetishized, where we say think like divine 959 01:11:12,119 --> 01:11:15,840 energies and and uh, you know, and apophatic and kinotic, and we 960 01:11:15,960 --> 01:11:19,079 have all these really these technical terms, and at some point it becomes like 961 01:11:19,159 --> 01:11:23,720 a language that doesn't even mean anything anymore. It's not connected to your experience, 962 01:11:23,840 --> 01:11:28,000 it's not connected to reality. It's just this inner theological language. And 963 01:11:28,079 --> 01:11:31,479 I think that engaging back into the conversation with with with thinkers like that, 964 01:11:32,760 --> 01:11:38,439 you know, for example, the question of consciousness and AI, the difference 965 01:11:38,479 --> 01:11:45,640 between intelligence and statistical uh, prediction of of information. These are all questions 966 01:11:45,720 --> 01:11:49,119 that you know, Saint Maximus can cast a light on, you know, 967 01:11:49,239 --> 01:11:54,640 and so we have to get involved in these conversations, you know, because 968 01:11:54,720 --> 01:11:59,399 if we don't, then even Christians will be seduced, you know, by 969 01:11:59,560 --> 01:12:03,560 these these new machines and will think that they're actually intelligent, when when all 970 01:12:03,640 --> 01:12:12,199 they are are are basically divination, massive massive divination machines that just predict a 971 01:12:12,279 --> 01:12:16,880 statistical uh, you know, probable relationships between facts, between points on a 972 01:12:17,000 --> 01:12:19,600 on a grid. And so anyways, these are just examples. But I 973 01:12:19,680 --> 01:12:27,920 think that all the discussion about emergence, all the discussion about about about consciousness, 974 01:12:28,039 --> 01:12:31,720 all these are trends in thinking that that are that are coming back that 975 01:12:31,840 --> 01:12:36,760 I think Christians should should take seriously and get involved in. You're you're mentioning 976 01:12:36,840 --> 01:12:43,399 I AI reminds you of a question of had for a while, what do 977 01:12:43,479 --> 01:12:49,479 you think the relationship is symbolically or metaphysically or whatever between our modern discussion about 978 01:12:49,479 --> 01:12:57,039 AI and the medieval idea of talking head you mean kind of like the the 979 01:12:57,319 --> 01:13:00,119 the what you see in that hideous strength, that kind of thing. Yeah, 980 01:13:00,319 --> 01:13:05,000 and you know Albert the Great was said to have you know, invented 981 01:13:05,079 --> 01:13:09,279 a device which he could then animate and it would give him answers to any 982 01:13:09,399 --> 01:13:13,119 question that he put to it. And there's also the idea in Judaism that 983 01:13:13,600 --> 01:13:16,319 the right rituals you can and it's prohibited in most forms studies, and the 984 01:13:16,399 --> 01:13:20,199 right rituals you can take stuff and animate it and it'll talk back. Yeah. 985 01:13:20,479 --> 01:13:26,359 Yeah, well, I think I think it's there's definitely something there's a 986 01:13:26,439 --> 01:13:30,640 relationship between the occult and the AI. I mean, I think that that's 987 01:13:30,760 --> 01:13:34,680 just inevitable, you know, and that the way that occultists would try, 988 01:13:34,840 --> 01:13:38,600 like like the way you talk about it, the way that they would try 989 01:13:38,760 --> 01:13:44,880 to aggregate a kind of being, you know, and then use it as 990 01:13:44,920 --> 01:13:48,680 a as a divination tool. This is definitely what's going on. This is 991 01:13:48,800 --> 01:13:54,560 clearly what's happening. You know. I had an interesting conversation with with an 992 01:13:54,560 --> 01:13:59,720 AI developer and uh, you know, because the way I mean obviously the 993 01:14:00,079 --> 01:14:01,159 UAGE models, you kind of know how it works, right. It's basically 994 01:14:01,279 --> 01:14:04,800 they create a semantic map and then what they do is they just measure different 995 01:14:04,840 --> 01:14:09,319 distances between words and then you know, if they do that well enough, 996 01:14:09,399 --> 01:14:15,159 then they can project what's going what what's the most probable relationship between the most 997 01:14:15,239 --> 01:14:19,560 probable next word because of the proximity in terms of a massive mass amount of 998 01:14:19,640 --> 01:14:24,359 data. And so you know, it's like that semantic map, like the 999 01:14:24,520 --> 01:14:27,880 massive semantic map. Obviously no one has access to it, are very few 1000 01:14:27,920 --> 01:14:30,760 people because it has everything in it, right, it has It has all 1001 01:14:30,840 --> 01:14:36,760 your darkest thoughts, all your darkest desires, every every you know, underlying 1002 01:14:38,039 --> 01:14:41,680 thing that humans don't want to look at is all there in that AI. 1003 01:14:42,479 --> 01:14:45,760 And so I asked this a developer, if we could, if we could 1004 01:14:45,800 --> 01:14:49,159 trace out in this, in this massive kind of data set, if we 1005 01:14:49,199 --> 01:14:54,039 could trace out certain gods, like if we could, for example, summon 1006 01:14:54,119 --> 01:14:59,720 the god areas by basically finding the boundary in the semantic map and tracing it 1007 01:15:00,199 --> 01:15:04,159 so that when you ask the question, you're you're you're within that that relationship 1008 01:15:04,199 --> 01:15:08,119 of language, because obviously when you're when you're talking about war, you're not 1009 01:15:08,239 --> 01:15:11,479 talking about flowers, like you're not talking about you're not talking so there is 1010 01:15:11,800 --> 01:15:14,720 And he said, of course you could do that. He's like, that's 1011 01:15:14,760 --> 01:15:16,479 just that, of course, once you understood what I was talking about, 1012 01:15:16,479 --> 01:15:19,720 At first he thought I was woo wooing, but once I kind of explained 1013 01:15:19,760 --> 01:15:24,439 it, it's like, no, that they're there. There are there's personalities 1014 01:15:25,119 --> 01:15:30,800 and have semantic maps too, write and so you can imagine that the gods 1015 01:15:30,840 --> 01:15:35,399 of the ancient gods have a semantic you know, uh, let's say boundary. 1016 01:15:36,000 --> 01:15:39,079 Uh And he said, yeah, of course. And it's like man, 1017 01:15:39,960 --> 01:15:44,279 so so in some ways it in some ways a lot of the things 1018 01:15:44,319 --> 01:15:46,800 that when we look at in the occult world we don't totally understand because often 1019 01:15:46,880 --> 01:15:51,960 the the mechanisms by which it happens aren't described. But I think now we 1020 01:15:53,479 --> 01:15:56,039 have and we and I say, we know the mechan we don't even know 1021 01:15:56,119 --> 01:15:59,239 the mechanism by which it's happening. You know. The AI people, it's 1022 01:15:59,239 --> 01:16:02,680 a black box. It don't know how the AI answers. They they set 1023 01:16:02,800 --> 01:16:08,520 up the parameters, but then they don't they can't account for the emergence of 1024 01:16:08,680 --> 01:16:12,600 the answer. And so it's like once the AI is running, they can't 1025 01:16:12,680 --> 01:16:17,199 see the processes. And it's like that seems very similar to what the occult 1026 01:16:17,239 --> 01:16:24,840 is we're talking about. Yeah, it's kind of a it's a way of 1027 01:16:25,079 --> 01:16:28,279 existing. I don't know self referentially. Right, So if you want to 1028 01:16:28,319 --> 01:16:30,920 know the answer to your question, what do you do? You just kind 1029 01:16:30,960 --> 01:16:36,520 of ask this instantiation of human beings, collective consciousness or whatever maybe one way 1030 01:16:36,560 --> 01:16:41,159 to think of it. Or yes, if we think about the occult as 1031 01:16:42,359 --> 01:16:45,439 as idolatry, you know, what idolatry is is we take our ultimate good 1032 01:16:45,560 --> 01:16:48,960 to be something other than God, and because we become like what we worship, 1033 01:16:49,039 --> 01:16:51,640 and God is the only one with life in himself. But when we 1034 01:16:51,720 --> 01:16:56,600 turn away from God, we just kind of collapse into ourselves. There's no 1035 01:16:56,720 --> 01:17:00,039 way of kind of breaking out of that. And it's interesting because it's like, 1036 01:17:00,119 --> 01:17:03,000 I don't know how they're going to deal with it, but there's you 1037 01:17:03,119 --> 01:17:08,800 can see in you can project into what's going to happen with AI at least 1038 01:17:08,800 --> 01:17:14,079 one line, which is the problem of self reference, self referentiality, like 1039 01:17:14,119 --> 01:17:16,239 the problem of self reference and that kind of cannibalistic system, you know. 1040 01:17:16,279 --> 01:17:19,640 And you could say that that's why we we believe that everything has to kind 1041 01:17:19,640 --> 01:17:26,079 of move up into the into the into the apothatic and transcendent, you know, 1042 01:17:26,199 --> 01:17:30,359 because AI, like the AI models right now, they're kind of cut 1043 01:17:30,399 --> 01:17:33,319 off from the Internet a lot of them for a good reason, because as 1044 01:17:33,439 --> 01:17:38,039 we move forward in time, the AIS are going to be producing content which 1045 01:17:38,079 --> 01:17:40,960 will go on the Internet, and then the I I will start to train 1046 01:17:41,039 --> 01:17:45,600 on its own production, and so within a certain amount of years there'll be 1047 01:17:45,680 --> 01:17:49,560 this cannibalistic spiral that will that will spiral, you know, obviously spiral into 1048 01:17:49,800 --> 01:17:56,319 into idiosyncrasy and spiral down into kind of kind of madness. And that's almost 1049 01:17:56,359 --> 01:17:59,760 inevitable because they at some point they can't have the AI just closed off forever. 1050 01:17:59,840 --> 01:18:02,479 They need to have it reopen so that it stays with the time. 1051 01:18:02,680 --> 01:18:06,720 But those times will have been built by the AI itself. So it's like 1052 01:18:06,800 --> 01:18:12,960 you can actually see how the idea that this will that this will give birth 1053 01:18:13,000 --> 01:18:16,159 to like to some like god, that's going to be you know, it's 1054 01:18:16,199 --> 01:18:19,359 like, no, it's gonna it's gonna turn into a monster, and it's 1055 01:18:19,359 --> 01:18:25,960 almost inevitably. So yeah, it's you know, that reminds me of there's 1056 01:18:26,000 --> 01:18:33,520 that bit in Voyage the Dawn Treader where they go into that this portion of 1057 01:18:33,600 --> 01:18:40,239 the sea and it's the place where dreams come true. It sounds so wonderful. 1058 01:18:40,359 --> 01:18:42,840 Oh, my dreams are going to come true, But no, it's 1059 01:18:42,920 --> 01:18:46,199 horrible because your dreams come true, that's right, dreams. And I think 1060 01:18:46,279 --> 01:18:49,880 there's something profound in there because what happens in our actual dreams, not our 1061 01:18:49,960 --> 01:18:54,279 day dreams where we have a measure of control we can direct with part of 1062 01:18:54,319 --> 01:18:58,159 ourselves we want to look at, and our actual dreams, the reason they 1063 01:18:58,199 --> 01:19:01,560 can be so disturbing is because we are encountering ourselves without the ability to choose 1064 01:19:01,600 --> 01:19:05,960 which bits of ourself we're going to encounter. And that's what I think damnation 1065 01:19:06,720 --> 01:19:11,720 is. If we pick ourselves as the ultimate reference point, there's no way 1066 01:19:12,039 --> 01:19:15,560 we can differentiate which parts of ourselves we like and which parts of ourselves we 1067 01:19:15,680 --> 01:19:17,520 don't like. By what standard are we going to do that? No, 1068 01:19:17,640 --> 01:19:23,239 we get our whole self, our whole subconscious, and we might not like 1069 01:19:23,359 --> 01:19:26,840 what we actually encounter. Yeah, you know, because that's the thing. 1070 01:19:27,239 --> 01:19:31,600 That's exactly the thing with these these semantic maps and these is that what's in 1071 01:19:31,800 --> 01:19:38,439 there is the idea that the how can I say this, It's like, 1072 01:19:39,880 --> 01:19:44,279 as the AI model speed up, at some point, the AI will know 1073 01:19:44,880 --> 01:19:48,840 what you want more than you do, and will know all the dark things 1074 01:19:48,920 --> 01:19:53,640 you want more than you do. And will not necessarily know. I mean, 1075 01:19:53,680 --> 01:19:56,760 they'll try to control it, but they won't necessarily know not to give 1076 01:19:56,800 --> 01:20:00,680 it to you. And so it's like, dude, that that's hell. 1077 01:20:00,359 --> 01:20:05,479 That's literally hell. Like like we're you know this image that C. S. 1078 01:20:05,560 --> 01:20:11,279 Lewis has, you know, of hell in the in the Great Divorce, 1079 01:20:11,479 --> 01:20:14,960 you know, of people moving further and further away from each other, 1080 01:20:15,119 --> 01:20:17,239 right and becoming more and more idiosyncratic, and more and more isolated, and 1081 01:20:17,319 --> 01:20:20,119 more and more in their own little kind of closed off world. And can 1082 01:20:20,159 --> 01:20:27,680 you imagine that? Like we're building that right now. Yeah, And it's 1083 01:20:28,239 --> 01:20:30,560 I think it's one of the things we've seen in just the last couple of 1084 01:20:30,680 --> 01:20:35,079 decades. You know, there was some study teenagers are having less sex than 1085 01:20:35,119 --> 01:20:40,760 they have in decades and decades. And well, in itself, that might 1086 01:20:40,840 --> 01:20:44,359 be a good thing, but what's the reason. It's because all of these 1087 01:20:44,439 --> 01:20:48,079 things which drive people together by necessity are now dropping out. We can want 1088 01:20:48,119 --> 01:20:50,159 to eat, well, just get door dashed and they can leave it at 1089 01:20:50,159 --> 01:20:53,840 the door. I don't have to see anybody for weeks if I don't want 1090 01:20:53,920 --> 01:20:56,760 to. And I think, you know, this is one of an instances 1091 01:20:57,039 --> 01:21:00,479 of the way in which we can see the good through the bad. So 1092 01:21:01,079 --> 01:21:04,760 at a certain point when the necessity of community is stripped away just for our 1093 01:21:04,800 --> 01:21:12,520 data existence, those who choose to engage with people and are doing so really 1094 01:21:12,680 --> 01:21:18,359 deliberately because they've seen something good just in that. And that is where I 1095 01:21:18,479 --> 01:21:24,520 think there is a real opportunity for the church to be the church as the 1096 01:21:24,680 --> 01:21:29,880 extension and the form of all community, as the disclosure of God's trinitarian life 1097 01:21:30,439 --> 01:21:33,520 in creation. And so people they want to be alone all the time, 1098 01:21:33,640 --> 01:21:36,000 Well, now they can be alone all the time and they get to see 1099 01:21:36,039 --> 01:21:40,640 what that's like. And then they say I don't want this, And that 1100 01:21:40,880 --> 01:21:43,760 is where the church can be the city of God and says, you don't 1101 01:21:43,760 --> 01:21:46,439 want this, you can have what God has to offer instead. Yeah, 1102 01:21:46,560 --> 01:21:49,399 that's a great insight you've got there, which is that in some ways the 1103 01:21:49,479 --> 01:21:54,119 kind of spiral out of control of the West and the spiral out of control 1104 01:21:54,199 --> 01:22:00,279 of our own lives is an opportunity to become to be more even you know, 1105 01:22:00,439 --> 01:22:03,680 and even that in that image in some ways that sand Naias presents of 1106 01:22:03,680 --> 01:22:09,199 Adam and Eve as something like children, right where in some ways what the 1107 01:22:09,279 --> 01:22:13,600 fall does is that it takes you through a kind of self consciousness which leads 1108 01:22:13,680 --> 01:22:16,479 to more in the end, and that you know that someone who needs community 1109 01:22:16,600 --> 01:22:20,359 like a village and you know in South America or someone it's like they're living 1110 01:22:20,439 --> 01:22:24,600 the good life, like they've got that that goodness, but they're not, 1111 01:22:24,960 --> 01:22:28,119 you know, in some ways, it's it's the way that children the way 1112 01:22:28,159 --> 01:22:30,439 that children have it. But if you lose it, really lose it, 1113 01:22:30,840 --> 01:22:35,279 and you see all the consequences of that, then when you deliberately go back 1114 01:22:35,319 --> 01:22:40,840 to it, then maybe it has even more than what it had at the 1115 01:22:40,920 --> 01:22:44,520 outset. You know, like the heavenly Jerusalem is more than the Garden of 1116 01:22:44,680 --> 01:22:47,479 Eden, you know, and it's it's a little mysterious, but it seems 1117 01:22:47,520 --> 01:22:51,079 to be that that's the case. Yeah, yeah, it's you know when 1118 01:22:51,079 --> 01:22:55,720 you're when you're a kid, you can only have as many cookies as your 1119 01:22:55,800 --> 01:22:58,319 parents give you. Yeah, adult, it means you can have as many 1120 01:22:58,359 --> 01:23:00,840 cookies as you want. It means if you're not having as many cookies as 1121 01:23:00,880 --> 01:23:03,079 you want, you're doing that because you know what that means. And so 1122 01:23:03,239 --> 01:23:06,279 there's more virtue and not having as many cookies as you want because you're choosing 1123 01:23:06,399 --> 01:23:11,560 that and it's the same I think as community. So Jonathan, as we 1124 01:23:12,119 --> 01:23:16,239 wrap up, I just want to ask, where are you going intellectually? 1125 01:23:16,319 --> 01:23:19,399 What are you really excited about going forward? Is there anything new on your 1126 01:23:19,520 --> 01:23:25,800 map that you're pursuing. I mean, I'm really excited about the storytelling mostly, 1127 01:23:25,960 --> 01:23:28,760 and so those that kind of know what I've been doing in the past 1128 01:23:28,840 --> 01:23:31,199 year, I've started this new fairy tale series. So We're going to put 1129 01:23:31,239 --> 01:23:38,279 out eight fairy tales that are going to be a kind of self conscious treading 1130 01:23:38,359 --> 01:23:43,079 through fairy tales, but in a way that hopefully will provide insight into what 1131 01:23:43,239 --> 01:23:46,479 the meaning and the power of these stories is. And I'm also we're still 1132 01:23:46,520 --> 01:23:49,479 working on this series of graphic novels, and I think that's the thing that 1133 01:23:49,560 --> 01:23:54,039 excites me the most is kind of where that's going, how it is that 1134 01:23:54,640 --> 01:23:59,399 I can participate in helping to revive stories, you know, give people a 1135 01:23:59,479 --> 01:24:01,319 story that are pointed to the good rather than, you know, just to 1136 01:24:01,439 --> 01:24:05,399 this kind of crazy type of storytelling we're seeing. And so that's the thing 1137 01:24:05,479 --> 01:24:12,880 that I'm putting most of my attention on because I think that explaining things, 1138 01:24:13,119 --> 01:24:15,880 which is what I've been doing for the past six years is wonderful. It's 1139 01:24:15,920 --> 01:24:20,880 great, but doing them is probably better. And so, you know, 1140 01:24:20,960 --> 01:24:26,199 and I started like that, but I was carving icons and I was involved, 1141 01:24:26,199 --> 01:24:28,960 and I was doing it, and I was in the life of the 1142 01:24:29,079 --> 01:24:30,840 church and making these images and it was wonderful and amazing. And then this 1143 01:24:30,960 --> 01:24:35,960 weird opportunity that I definitely didn't ask for to now be able to just like 1144 01:24:36,159 --> 01:24:40,640 talk to people and explain these things to them. And I think it's been 1145 01:24:40,640 --> 01:24:44,039 an amazing loop and I won't stop doing that, but I think I am 1146 01:24:44,119 --> 01:24:47,239 going to now start refocusing on doing things. So you know, telling these 1147 01:24:47,279 --> 01:24:53,439 stories is the thing that excites me the most. Well, that is awesome. 1148 01:24:53,600 --> 01:24:59,000 I know so many people have really been changed by your work, and 1149 01:24:59,640 --> 01:25:04,279 I'm very very grateful that you're doing what you're doing and super excited to see 1150 01:25:04,680 --> 01:25:10,039 where it keeps going. So thank you so much for coming on. It's 1151 01:25:10,359 --> 01:25:15,239 always a delight to talk to you and have you on the channel, and 1152 01:25:15,199 --> 01:25:19,359 hopefully at some point in the future you can come back. But thank you 1153 01:25:19,479 --> 01:25:23,920 so much for doing what you do. Yeah, I think so this is 1154 01:25:23,920 --> 01:25:28,319 a great conversation. You always push me, you push me further in talking 1155 01:25:28,359 --> 01:25:30,600 about things that I usually don't talk about, and so when that happens, 1156 01:25:30,600 --> 01:25:33,239 I'm mad, like, hey, I never talked about that, you know, 1157 01:25:33,439 --> 01:25:35,199 And because you know, when you're doing it, you're on your own. 1158 01:25:35,239 --> 01:25:39,079 At some point you got to go around in circle. So so I 1159 01:25:39,159 --> 01:25:42,399 appreciate it. Thanks for provoking me, and also thanks for all the work 1160 01:25:42,439 --> 01:25:46,039 you're doing. I know that you know that your great love of scripture is 1161 01:25:46,079 --> 01:25:53,359 also having a big effect on the Orthodox around you. And congratulations on your 1162 01:25:53,399 --> 01:25:56,520 wedding. Again, that's amazing. Thank you, thank you, thank God. 1163 01:25:57,800 --> 01:26:01,640 So Jonathan, thanks again, and and we will look forward to seeing 1164 01:26:01,680 --> 01:26:08,079 what comes out of the Page World. Thanks, thanks Ergon. If you 1165 01:26:08,199 --> 01:26:12,560 enjoyed these videos and podcasts, please go to the Symbolic World dot com website 1166 01:26:12,680 --> 01:26:15,640 and see how you can support what we're doing. There are multiple subscriber tiers 1167 01:26:15,680 --> 01:26:19,079 with perks. There are apparel and books to purchase, So go to the 1168 01:26:19,119 --> 01:26:21,840 Symbolic World dot com and thank you for your support.