We're back with another edition of The Federalist Radio Hour. Emily Jasinski, culture
editor here at the Federalist. As always, you can email the show at
radio at the Federalist dot com, follow us on Twitter at fdr LST.
Make sure to subscribe wherever you download your podcasts into the premium version of our
website as well. Today we're joined by Mary Morgan. Mary hosts co hosts
Pop Culture Crisis over at Timcast Media. You can find her on socials.
Her Instagram and Twitter are at Mary Archived. Mary, thanks for joining the
show. Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to get into
Taylor Swift with you. I'm very excited about this too, But tell us
a little bit before we dive into Taylor. Although I know we're both like
sort of champion at the bit to get into Taylor, but can you tell
us a little bit about I mean, you're doing such interesting work over at
tim Cast, could you tell us a little bit about Hya ended up over
at tim Cast co hosting pop Culture Crisis? What led you there? Sure?
So about a year ago? I started there in April twenty twenty two,
I believe, and Tim basically wanted to launch this show that is a
political which is far from what he does, and me and Brett Dasavik hosted.
He was originally on it. I joined it a few months after they
initially launched it, and we just clicked. It went really well, and
I like that we get to talk about fun stuff, like lighthearted stuff instead
of you know, Ukraine and elections and vaccines and just stuff like that.
Like it's more my speed. And I think that conservatives have underest made the
importance of cultural issues for far too long, so we can take a step
in the right direction by paying attention to those issues and really having cultural influence.
How did you get linked up with the Tim Cast, guys? I
was actually friends with Tim's editor in chief, Cassandra Fairbanks, who was now
Cassandra McDonald. She was Fairbanks when I met her, so yeah, she
recommended me for the role, and I visited the place and pretty much did
an informal interview and ended up working out. It was pretty random. It
was actually very unexpected for me, a very unexpected turn in my life after
I dropped out of college, which is again like an unconventional way to go
about things. But now I'm twenty three and I feel like I'm on a
pretty good path considering that I don't have a college degree. I mean,
dropping out of college for many people is actually a fantastic idea. Yeah,
I think more people should do it. To be honest, I'm like a
little bit proud of being a college dropout. I'm not gonna lie like I'm
doing life on hard mode in a way. Hey, you know it's it's
you can't go to college to be a co host of pop culture Crisis,
you know, like when am I going to major in podcasting? Like,
I'm sorry, what, But let's get into Taylor because you wrote a piece
over at timcast dot com with the headline Taylor Swift is changing her old song
lyrics for feminism, and we talk actually, man, going back years,
we've had a lot of conversations about Taylor Swift on this podcast about you know,
we cover for women's issues a lot, but Taylor Swift is one of
the most I think emblematic sort of cringe millennial people in our popular culture.
And this is part what you're what you write about, I think is part
of the reason why tell us a little bit about how she's changing her lyrics
and what that has to do with femine. Yeah. So it's interesting with
Taylor Swift because she had this millennial fan base of millennial girls in the two
thousands and the twenty tens, and somehow she went through this lullen popularity between
reputation and folklore, I think, and then really had a huge resurgence and
now has a mainly gen Z female audience that didn't really have much familiarity with
her early work. And I'm a fan of her country music era more so
than her more recent stuff. So if you look back at her old songs,
it's stuff that I think a lot of gen Z girls really wouldn't appreciate
for its honesty. And this is literally from a teenage girl's perspective. She's
writing this in high school. And one of them is called better than Revenge,
and it's about being the crazy ex girlfriend taking jabs the girl that you
perceived to have stolen your man from you. And this is petty high school
stuff, like nothing to be surprised at. It's ridiculous if you think that
this doesn't happen. But some of the lyrics in that song were called misogynistic
because you know, she's saying she's not a saint. She's not what you
think. She's an actress. She's better known for the things that she does
on the mattress and now that would be called slut shaving, and a lot
of gen Z fans really didn't understand it. But when she's been re recording
these older songs, it's a subtle change. They see that she's changed from
the original lyrics to something more benign to avoid criticism, and a lot of
the fans are like, wait, no, I appreciated that song for what
it was. Like, It's a song, not social engineering, right,
Like, it's supposed to express what you're feeling, not necessarily rock to you
on how to relate to other people. Right. That's so, that is
a really really important point. I think that music is it should be visceral.
It should not be an essay, right yessay is something that you go
back to and perfect. But the beauty of music and the beauty of art
in general, is that it's actually supposed to be uh you know this,
your emotion channeled into something beautiful, channeled in something that is beyond just the
sort of conversation that you might have with a friend, but reflects the same
emotions of it, and she Mary, could you give us some background on
why she's re recording the songs the whole uh Big Machine Records situation. Right,
So, from what I understand, especially as Scooter Braun has been in
the media recently losing a lot of his clients, it looks like Taylor Swift
is doing some kind of black magic ritual against him to curse his career.
But the fact of the matter is that he's just going through an evolution in
his career and his contracts have been expiring for a long time now. But
Schooner Braun is essentially the villain in this story. According to Swifties, he
acquired her songs under Big Machine Records. She's now with Republic Records. She's
rerecording her albums under Republic Records so that she can own her music. It's
a it's a whole long tangent and it's a whole saga. But she's actually
about to release her rerecorded version of nineteen eighty nine. I'm really excited for
her actually to rerecord her first album, her self titled album, because I
just want country music Taylor back. I really do. I think those are
her best songs. I love your point, And I had never thought about
this because I'm basically the same age as Taylor Swift and so was in high
school when the country records were coming out and she was like the hot new
thing in the country music scene, but hadn't quite become what she she eventually
became, which was someone who actually brought other people, brought new audiences,
and I think forever changed country music because of the new audiences that she specifically
brought into the genre. That was her. That's sort of like what people
my age like around thirty. That's what we know her for was those early
records. Even when they got you know, even when you got closer to
like the Red album, whatever it was, it still was a very very
different version than the folklore version. And I honestly, until you said that,
had never thought about if you're getting introduced to Taylor and the sort of
folklore era as Swifty, say, yeah, how different of an introduction that
is, and how that much How that must change the way people see her
coming in at that kind of point in her career, right, And if
you look at her evolution from country music to pop, it was done expertly
well. And I think this was her natural evolution as an artist, and
she's free to do that. That's fine. I appreciate the country music more
than the pop music, that's fine. But she exited country music in a
way that was actually expedient for her career because she's a good little capitalist and
she knows, you know, the going mainstream is it makes her more money.
And instead of you know, crapping on country music and country music fans
and the whole culture and history around it, like Marion Morris has, she
you know, shows her respects to it. She gives country music it's flowers,
and you know, she's moved on from it for other reasons. Marion
Morris is talking about getting out of country music because she's somehow a victim of
it and she doesn't like the country music fans. I mean, it's just
never a good move to have an antagonistic relationship with the people who are literally
like allowing you to make a money money off of half of your art form,
right it's very I just found it incredibly distasteful the way that she talked
about country music fans. And it's not people like Marion Morris who are at
the top of country music right now. It's people like Morgan Wallen and Jason
Haldane. It's funny because Marion Morris had this very her story is really interesting
because she was one of the first artists who broke through with streaming and not
with radio and the country format and country radio has like actually clung to power
as a gatekeeper more than other radio genres or more than radio's importance and other
genres. But with My Church, she really did circumvent the radio kind of
circuit and took off with streaming, and so she has she has a different
fan base, and I don't know that she would have had that fan base
if Taylor Swift hadn't gone before her and sort of playing through the seats of
all of these like young ish more sort of like urban suburban, middle class
women. And that's that's kind of like what we were talking about when Taylor
Swift change country music. Uh, it's sort of like the kind of like
carpool country music, carpool lane country music. Mary Moore steps right into that.
Now you have kind of half country fans, traditional country fans and half
like carpool moms, and it's it's just such a mix of carpool moms.
I like that term we call it the carpool lane here, and it is
true because it's like it's it's just some of it is so so bad and
so safe and lame for country music. But at the same time, sorry
I'm rambling here, but I think it's it's really with with Marion Morris.
Shit, it's with Taylor Swift. They don't want the traditional country fans.
You just made such an important point. Tell us a little bit more about
that, because Mary and Morris said just this week that she's she told the
La Times I'm leaving country music. She specifically said during the Trump administration,
everybody's biases were laid bare, that country music like try that in a small
town, is now about owning the libs. She said that there was racism,
homophobia, and I think she said transphobia. Yes, industry fan base,
all of that. Just please Mary go off. Yeah, there are
others like Marion Morris too in country music, like Casey Musgraves, Kelsey Ballerini,
these types of people who really seem like infiltraders in a culture where like
country music fans, I'm thinking of like people with more conservative or traditional values
and Marion Morris just like flies in the face of that. She's saying she's
leaving country music and releases this song, get the Hell out of Here,
and she's working with Jack Antonov, who is a big producer for Taylor Swift
and Lana del Rey and lots of female artists that are big right now.
She says she's leaving because of what she views as the country country music industry's
unwillingness to reckon with its history of racism and misogyny and to open its gates
to more women, queer people, and people of color. I don't think
that country music really has ever had a problem with, at least inclusion of
women. There are so many women in country music who came before her that
already broke that glass ceiling. I don't think she's really doing anything new or
revolutionary with country music, and I guess it makes sense that she's leaving now
because she's going to find more popularity in the mainstream by doing pop anyway.
But she does like the country music fan base. And this happens a lot
with movies and television too. People who create things and they want to dictate
who is allowed to enjoy what they've made and how they're allowed to enjoy it.
And how they're allowed to interpret it. But once you've put something out
there, it's for everyone else to decide why they like it. You know,
it takes a lot of hubrists to dictate to other people how they're supposed
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order today. Yeah, it actually reminds me of Taylor Swift's you Need to
Call Them Down music video which twenty eighteen, where she has uh these by
the way, all white toothless kind of hillbilly characters protesting her and her character.
In this music video, which is just her as because of a gay
marriage and like gay stuff, which again, like I wrote about this at
the time, like the population that has the highest opposition to gay marriage is
not white people, it's the black community. But she does not have the
audacity, she doesn't have the courage and really wants to you know, stick
it to those people. Uh, she really wants to stick it to those
people who still just haven't come around on gay marriage. She's taking the cheap
and easy shot that's going to satisfy a very particular group of the country,
and that would be sort of educated elites. But actually isn't even true.
And I don't think she even knows that it's not true, because she has
the same like she's she's such a perfect example of this like millennial white woman
who has you know, quote done the work and like was scrolling Tumblr in
twenty fifteen reading these feminist quotes and thought that meant she had been enlightened and
horizons have been brought in. But because our culture's version of a virtue and
of you know, politics is so insipid and basic and stupid, that's what
she imbibed. Like I think she's a perfectly smart person, but what she's
spinning back out is what our culture is telling her spit back out, and
it's just so dumb it doesn't even make sense. I think Taylor Swift is
excellent at articulating herself about herself and about her own emotions. I don't look
to her as some kind of political thought leader. And she was known and
notorious and criticized very harshly for so so long for not being politically outspoken and
quote unquote using her platform for good. And it took her a long time
to actually become this uh politically outspoken. It started in twenty eighteen, I
think. But then when she put out her documentary Miss Americana in twenty twenty,
I believe that's why a whole part of the documentary was about, you
know, coming to grips with like her responsibility for her platform and for her
fan to uh, you know instructed. I'm on on civic, you know,
like their civic participation, and it's like her her you know bravery so
to say for endorsing Democrat politicians. It's just like it's so vapid and meaningless.
And and she did that at just the moment when it became strategically beneficial
for her to do it. It's it's not brave. That is such a
good point. Yes, it was after Trump and she was getting criticized enormously
for staying like silent during the Trump phase. And you know, they always
trot out the Dixie Chicks line, They always trot out the h There was
this DJ that was caught on tape like ten years ago talking about how women
are the tomatoes and the country music radio salad, so they're just sort of
the there there. What's the best way to put this, almost a aside
to the lettuce. And what's funny about that, as the theory has always
been people who listen to country radio are women, and women want to hear
male artists like the way that it was just rationalized for a really long time.
So women in country music have had have somewhat clung to that victimhood narrative.
And Taylor Swift then comes out as harold and as brave because people who
know absolutely nothing about country music. And it's the same thing with the Marion
Morris story. Emily Nussbaum at The New Yorker was just like you could you
could hear the applause from Brooklyn emanating through the country. When Marion Morris made
her statement to the La Times this week and like, this is a Pulitzer
Prize winning journalist with awards, with degrees from like Ivy League institutions. She
lives in Brooklyn, and she's telling people what she knows about the country music
fans. It is just nobody understands country music in uh. I would argue,
like the so called mainstream media. Yeah, I think you know,
maybe it's better to keep it that way, right, Like, uh,
the in the La Times interview, they asked her, like, well,
if people are making these songs to quote unquote own the libs and you're leaving
country music because of it, has the lib not been owned? You just
retreated because you were getting criticized. It is it is the lib getting owned,
and you know, maybe we're we're going to be better off for it,
and country music is going to be better off for it, because uh,
you know, in that music video she was for the Tree, she
was clearly taking shots at Jason Aldean for try that in a small town.
And the response to that song was just absolutely unhinged. People talking about like
it's a reference to Lynishing, It's a reference to sundowntowns And it's just like,
I get that it's a little bit hypocritical for someone like Jason Aldean,
who is rich and lives in a big city to talk about the values of
small communities. But I mean what he said clearly still resonated with them.
That's something that people like Marion Morris are just not capable of doing or empathizing
with. Yeah, and it's not like she doesn't have to agree with him
whatsoever, But to act as that you have the moral high ground by calling
country music fans you're racist, homophobic, transphobic, whatever is so gross.
And actually I wanted to ask you when you were talking about all of this,
why is it that that you started listening to country music? Why do
you think you like country music? Mary? Oh gosh. I mean,
I don't think of myself as like a big country music fan because I don't.
I'm not listening to Hank Williams and like Johnny Cash and like the people
who really made it what it was. I like radio country music that has
been super like watered down and deluded, but like I like it for what
it is, that's what it is. I like it as it is.
I mean, I think I think that try That in This Whole Town was
a really catchy song, and I was, like, you know, screaming
it out in my car. But it's definitely not anything like what country music
was decades ago, right, Yeah, and listening to country like when when
you were younger did you start listening to it? Yeah? I really liked
Taylor Swift's country music, for instance, because that was I was the target
demographic for it pretty much. I moved actually from Maryland to North Carolina during
my childhood and I heard a lot more of it and was around more people
who listened to it, So I guess that had something to do with it.
But I think the important part is I'm not trying to I'm not saying
like I'm the country purist and I dictate what it's supposed to be. I'm
just willing to appreciate it for what it is and not you know, throw
vitriol at the people who enjoy it. Did you like mar And Morris when
she first came on the scene. No, I never listened to her music.
I liked I looked some of Casey Musgrave's music when she first popped up
on the scene, but like she's kind of gone woke pretty badly too.
She had like transactors in her music videos. I don't know, these people
are just a joke to me. She's kind of gone this like die parton
route where she got. Really there was something very camp about Kasey Musgraves that
hed this like huge mainstream and I think I would say like LGBT fan base,
and she rolled with it, you know, probably because of the money,
but also probably because she had that song follow Your Arrow like it Yes,
which was sort of libertarian, a very like American libertarian ethos. She's
to me not quite as obnoxious as Taylor Swift and Marion Morris are though,
because she's I think she's smarter than them. I don't know. That's my
take on Casey Musgraves. I'm not sure you're skeptical. Yeah, yeah,
well, but Following Your Arrow was like, I think that was really controversial
at the time that it came out, and she was talking about how it
was like suppressed on getting radio plays and stuff like that. But I mean
it's, like you said, it can do better on streaming anyway. Yeah,
that's true. And it's just fundamentally changed country music because now so many
country music fans. I mean Marion Morris. One of her biggest songs was
was with Z. It wasn't even like remotely a country song, and that
like catapulted her into mainstream sort of notoriety. But I think to some extent
it's great that genres are mixing and blending. And to your point, you
know, there are a lot of people who try to act sorts as gatekeepers,
and I think there's a role for that in country music specifically, in
the same way there's a role for that in blues and jazz and you know,
American art forms, and that there should be something preserved about our history
or legacy or traditions. So I get that. At the same time,
it makes sense that if you have all of these new young fans streaming music,
not super concerned about, you know, turning into one radio station that
plays one kind of music and another radio station that plays another kind of music.
It's just sort of all out there. I understand why people are making
money the way that they do, but it is like this contempt for people
who might be in enjoying your music, and they're sort of pride in that
contempt going to the La Times and announcing it is just like having your coming
out party as somebody who hates the people who made you famous, like Taylor
Swift, and you need to calm down. Just attacking Hillbillies again, It's
it's almost like they need license, Like this is their way of taking license
to hang out with cool people, Like you got to earn your way into
the Hollywood circles by knocking the people that made you famous. Yeah, they
have that extreme thirst for validation from the mainstream, don't they. And it's
reflected in so many other areas of pop culture as well. I mean even
even gamer Gate, which is considered the thing that really kicked off the culture
war as we know it today, and it's been almost i think it's been
a literal decade since that happened. That was, you know, the gaming
industry having contempt for its own fan base, and then you see it in
in comic books as well, like then you see it in movies and television.
It's everywhere, and you can feel the contempt that that these Hollywood elites
in the entertainment industry as a whole have for the people who make it possible
for them to make a living. Yeah. But the good news is that
with new media. And actually with the streaming era, you have people and
oh my gosh, I don't want to even get into Tyler Childers who have
never particularly liked, but you do help Childers. Yeah, yeah, okay,
I had no idea. Yeah, yeah, it's it's Childers. But
he always there's the like hicklib archetype that sort of people are flushing out now
and who's always been in that vein. That doesn't make me dislike him because
of that. It's just sometimes people's fans make you not like people. It's
just hard to get around that sometimes. But still people with more traditional sounds
have been able to take off and country fans are able to find what they're
looking for. So that's all great. And it actually is sort of a
parallel to new media like tim cast right, Like if you're not getting what
you want to get from you know, CNN or ESPN or you know,
the view, you can you have options now. And in some way that's
really good too, because it's the market is kind of doing its thing and
speaking to and letting new voices shine. You're so right about that hicklib archetype
of liberals who live in big cities getting mullets and wearing real tree and appropriating
all of these esthetics of people that they hate with a passion for living in
Middle America and in the salvin and rural areas in small towns. It's a
really sinister trend. Tylan Shoulders, I do like his song Purgatory. I
haven't listened to much of his other music, but yeah, I definitely noticed
that hicklib trend with like city like urbanite, like liberal urbanites wanting to appropriate
the aesthetics of those so called hillbillies that they hate so much. Hey,
y'all, this is Sarah Carter, investigative columnists and host of The Sarah Carter
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promo code Sarah. Yeah, I agree. I think it's something about I
mean, when you're looking for kind of purpose and meaning you can find it
and punching down or punching able. It's just it's an easy way to do
it. But yeah, Choulders he's great, like he actually makes really good
traditional music. But just when he released the music video about like the gay
coal miners that came him out around tried that in a small town or no,
it was around when Oliver Anthony was It was like almost at the same
time, and just the media calling Oliver Anthony like an Epstein like adult weirdo
and being like Tyler Childers is bringing love and harmony to country music. These
are just about market forces. They know who their their fans are, and
it's not you know, it's sort of split. Like they have some traditional
country music loving fans and then like Mary Morris because she she put out a
great first album, and then they have some fans that are you know,
like not at all in the same vein as those other fans. And so
you know, what gets you into the mainstream, what gets you into the
Hollywood parties, Well, it's like forcing yourself from the other fans and changing
the culture in the process, and the rest of us just have to kind
of deal with it. Yeah, the Rise of Oliver Anthony was very interesting
to watch because I think they they hate you for not wanting to be part
of their club, for not wanting to be invited to their parties and get
record deals and tour like. I don't think he seems really interested in making
this a career path for himself, Like this is just like a creative fulfillment
thing for him, and he's He's also been accused of being one of these
liberal like hiclibs too, just because he doesn't, you know, sell himself
as some kind of political pundit, which I respect because everybody else is trying
to become a political pundit instead of an artist. And I hate that the
conservative side does have this, like this instinct to want every every artist that
has like a tiny bit of common ground with us to become a political show
clown. I'm glad that he's he's resistant turning into that. Yeah, no,
that's super interesting. I mean country music has a long political history,
and there's there's sort of nothing wrong with that, but the I think the
climate now it rewards this like bumper sticker. Uh just vapid. You use
that word earlier. It's perfect for this is like vapid, like unthinking,
dumb like slogany politics, and it's it's not thoughtful at all, you know.
I also wanted to ask I've read your piece about the whatever podcast and
I don't know that like some of our some of our listeners are probably like
out of the demo for whatever, but maybe have still seen clips and been
like what the hell is this show? But can you talk to us a
little bit about why you wrote about why the whatever podcasts like to go off
and I thought your piece was really interesting. Could you tell us a little
bit about why you think that podcast took off. Yeah, So, for
any of the listeners that that aren't familiar with it, it's basically a panel
dating talk show. The host Brian Alice. He invites girls who are on
only fans or even just normal liberal college girls from that area it's in Santa
Barbara, and also invites some people who are like influencers or political pundits as
well, just to talk about like what a mess and what a hellscape the
dating world has become in recent years, and it gets ugly on there sometimes
and people really show their true colors. But I think my basic take on
it was that people are are really thirsting for some honesty about out, you
know, the part that women have to play in. You know, how
bad the dating landscape has gotten, and any criticism of women has become like
such a taboo that even like things like Fresh and Fit, where these hosts
they just actually like yell at their guests and it's like a really antagonistic environment
that is toxic in some ways, but it's overcorrecting for the issue everywhere else
where. You know, men are always the problem. Men are at fault
for everything, so let's just swing to the other extreme of the aisle.
And when I went on the Whatever podcast, it was because it felt like
this was just like taking over my algorithm, and all I was seeing is
is clips of this podcast, Like what is this all about? So I
just sent him a DM and was like, Hey, I'm a Catholic and
I have some slightly more traditional views about dating and relationships, and I think
I'd have some interesting perspectives to offer on there that aren't really quote unquote red
pill. So I when I went on there, I was talking about,
you know, the value of waiting until marriage, and you know, the
fact that you shouldn't, you know, engage in hookup culture, not only
because it makes you low value, but also because it hurts you. And
you know, people just don't think about the consequences of their actions anymore.
So I didn't want to go on there to just you know, shame women
and you know, degrade them for making the wrong choices. I do want
to just have a more positive perspective that, especially for the young girls that
go on there, if you have all these years ahead of you in the
prime of your life, don't don't abuse it. M M. I want
to ask about that in this context of what we're talking about with country music
with Taylor Swift and Mary Morris, because I think there's something really interesting going
on with gen Z, which is this kind of nagging feeling that some of
the h and I'll say this phrase agains again like cringe millennial. Some of
the cringe millennial sloganeering about feminism, it's just become exhausting, and there's this
kind of nagging sense that, you know, they want to get to the
bottom of it, right, Like I'm going to go down this Wikipedia rabbit
hole about you know, late at night with the just the globe of my
phone, about you know what the feminist movement, how it started, like
what it's all about. It's just this like seems like this simmering cry.
And I feel like whatever is kind of an answer to that. But also
I am a cringe millennial, so I'm trying to like help me, help
me understand this. Mary, uh, the wait? So could you could
you rephrase it? Of course, so that like whatever in the same way
that whatever's almost a reaction to the bad takes that people like you big like
corporate Behemith like Taylor Swift or Marion Morris and Hollywood in general are pushing on
young women that there's this like curiosity, there's this nagging sense that something is
off, and that like they need to get to the bottom. They they
need to sort of talk and find the right answers to it. It just
seems to me like it's almost a reaction to this, like corporate feminism.
M Well, I guess there is kind of a an equal and opposite reaction
when you're shoving these slogans down everyone's throats. Yeah, they're going to react
sometimes in the opposite extreme, and that's not good either. So when I'm
talking about the Whatever podcast, I'm not saying it's the solution to all of
our problems. But this is the natural consequence of beating everyone over the head
with slogans about female solidarity. And what I was talking about with Taylor Swift
changing her lyrics earlier, she's doing it out of an obligation of this like
nebulous idea of female solidarity, which is entirely meaningless. It just means celebrate
all decisions that women make simply because it's their choice. Therefore it's good.
And I think that Similarly, the whatever podcast us is reacting to that trend.
The criticizing women is just totally off the table now, so you're going
to get the other end, the toxic extreme, on the other end of
the spectrum, and that's where you've gotten a lot of the red pill voices
getting amplified now. Well. And one of the things I really liked about
your pieces that if I think back, you know, ten years ago,
people were not it was it was not acceptable that people would sit down literally
across from each other at a table and have these conversations, even if they
are like extremely nasty sometimes that I just think there's something really positive about the
fact that these debates are happening. Period, Like when when I grew up,
like people were celebrating that John Stewart got this show on CNN called Crossfire
with Tucker Carlson and Paul Degala, and you had the left and the right
arguing theatrically every single day about news of the day, about American politics and
culture, and it was celebrated that that was taken off the air and canceled,
And that's really bad. I mean, I think taking public debate away
is a bad thing to do. It seems to me almost like it's a
positive thing that people are at least like talking about some of the hardest questions,
most painful questions, like sexual views abortion in this very public way.
I don't know it just I liked your piece because I think it is a
Conservatives may have some sense that because they are like only fans girls on it
Whatever, that it's a bad thing, but actually it seems like it's at
least a positive a step in a better direction, right, like sort of
sunlight is the best disinfectant way of thinking about it. I won't lie.
There are a lot of girls that go on the Whatever podcast solely to promote
they're only fans. There's a reason that they don't pay their guests for appearances
because they're they're getting paid in exposure either way. But you're right, it's
what other recourse do we have for the damage that's been done by the cultural
revolution and the sexual revolution, other than to just talk about it out in
the open. Yeah, I agree, No, and I think your piece
was really smart on that, thank you, And you know, just it
also seems like there's something about it, like there's something in gen z,
like there are some people who are just doing the sort of reflective TikTok feminist
lib stuff. But also it just it does seem to me like everybody's just
kind of looking for the right answer. They're just like looking for something.
Like everyone's adrift, but they're looking. And I feel like with millennials,
everyone thought that they had found the right answers, and gen Z is sort
of reacting to that. And that's why I actually like your points about Taylor
Swift and Mary Morris. They're so certain, they're so sure of their politics
and their opinions. There's self righteous and I think actually like people younger,
people in their early twenties right now are saying like, hey, we don't
we feel like we've been lied to by kind of everyone, not just by
the right, but just sort of by everyone. Yeah, they're like looking
at these these liberals in media who are so sure of themselves, and they're
like, wait, I'm I'm actually pretty lost as to where my place in
society is. Yeah. I agree. I think that one of the huge
issues with gen Z being able to like connect with each other, have close
friendships and find relationships, and why they're not, you know, getting married
as much, or they're not even partying as much, they're not having as
much social connection. Is also because the political divide is getting more and more
polarized within gen Z, so that you can see the gen Z guys are
becoming more and more conservative, the gen Z girls are becoming more and more
liberal. And I saw this this polling data recently that the majority of women
eighteen to thirty four see it as a red flag if a guy listens to
Joe Rogan. And it's like, if that's if that's on your list of
red flags, you're never going to find a relationship because you have you have
this arbitrary checklist of you know, what what a guy can do that's acceptable
or unacceptable, what gives you the ick. It's really just a shield from
actually, you know, having vulnerability and and finding true love and connection with
somebody. I'm so glad you brought that up, because I don't think we've
talked about this on the podcast yet. The polling on the polarization between gen
Z men and women is nuts. Like people, it's it's just like if
you if people could look at it, like visualize it, you have men
and women just going in opposite directions and at like a really intense rate too.
So yeah, the lines are just like you know, they're they're going
like as far away from each other as you could imagine. Yes, Like
when previously the cultural ebb and flow affected men and women pretty much the same
way, like most millennials were more liberal and most Gen X were more libertarian.
Before them, the Boomers were mostly conservative, and they sort of were
like a unanimous group in that way. But Gen Z is seeming to be
totally opposite. They're they're splitting off in two opposite directions, and it's scary
because you know, you need to care about aligning with someone on your foundational
values to uh have a long lasting relationship and also to like teach your children
those values. It's really worrying. Oh my gosh, this is so depressing.
I know, I know, because it's like, you know, how
do you sort of square that circle? How do you bring people together for
marriages and communities and families when these divisions are First of all, the golf
is getting bigger and bigger, and also it's getting people are less willing to
sort of build a bridge between one side or the other because it violates what
they see as their sort of fundamental and moral code. Yeah. I mean,
if we're looking for a silver lining or a bright side to all of
this, I'm not I'm not sure if it's it's that much of a consolation,
But I think that the members of gen Z, who who are leaning
more traditional, who do want these things. They want marriage and family,
and they want to own houses and all these things that seem like just totally
impossible increasingly, they really want it. They really do. And actually,
coming from a Catholic perspective, when I look at the Christian dating world,
but specific specifically the Catholic dating world, it's like the secular, you know,
mass culture dating world, but like totally upside down and toppled over.
It's like the shadow realm of the dating landscape in the main stream as it
exists right now. Because when you're thinking about dating apps, it's like all
the women are getting tons and tons of messages and they're getting tons of matches,
and they're kind of on there just for the validation and attention that they
get from that. There are way more guys on the dating apps than than
girls. But then if you look at Catholic dating world, there are all
of these single Catholic girls with traditional values, who want marriage, they want
to have kids, they want to be stayed at home moms, a lot
of them, and U's they don't have the numerical advantage. They don't.
There's there's a notable lack of guys who share their values, and that's worrying
too, because then what are they going to do. Are they going to
settle for someone who doesn't share their values. That's a worrying prospect. But
I think that the gen Z guys and girls who do have those traditional values,
they're really convicted in it. And it's not because they're going with the
flow. They're going against the grain of the mass culture and it's not the
easy thing to do. So it means they really care about their values.
And I think that's a good thing, absolutely, And that's a great way
to put it, because at the end of the day, you also have
this total mismatch in men who are so women who are going to be out
earning men and in a different sort of socioeconomic bracket than men, and then
all of these sort of political complications get even more difficult. But they have
problems to solve. It almost forces solutions because well, yeah, people,
people want to date and get married, So I guess you know, everyone's
going to have to learn to live with it. Yeah, people aren't going
to stop searching for love. That's that's the truth of the matter. And
there are so many voices just vying for the attention of young people right now
that ring hollow and it's just so transparent. Like, I think one of
the advantages GENC has is that we're really good at detecting inauthenticity. A lot
of that is because we kind of grew up on the Internet, and when
there's a voice that's really offering something real and something meaningful that resonates, we
have a really good bas detector. I think that's so counterintuitive, probably to
a lot of older people who looked at the Internet and we're like, how
is anyone ever going to know what's true and what's not? Well again,
versus the issue, you're forced to figure out what's true and what's not Yeah,
exactly to sift at all, unfortunately, But I guess there's some good
that comes from that. Mary Morgan, it was a pleasure to have you
on the show today. Thank you so much for talking to us about all
of this. Thank you so much for having me. I had fun on
here. Yeah, I'll see this again, Yeah, anytime. Mary Morgan
co hosts pop Culture Crisis over at tim cast Media. That is a daily
live show on YouTube, so make sure to check it out. You can
find her on Instagram and Twitter at Mary archived. I guess I should say
X find her on Instagram at x at Mary archive. I've actually that's really
good. EL should go for that. Yeah, that works really well.
I have a just said ski culture editor here at the Federals. We will
be back soon with more. Until then, be lovers of freedom and anxious
for the frame.