1 00:00:17,359 --> 00:00:21,839 We're back with another edition of The Federalist Radio Hour. Emily Jasinski, culture 2 00:00:21,960 --> 00:00:25,199 editor here at the Federalist. As always, you can email the show at 3 00:00:25,280 --> 00:00:29,160 radio at the Federalist dot com, follow us on Twitter at fdr LST. 4 00:00:29,359 --> 00:00:33,799 Make sure to subscribe wherever you download your podcasts into the premium version of our 5 00:00:33,920 --> 00:00:39,039 website as well. Today we're joined by Mary Morgan. Mary hosts co hosts 6 00:00:39,079 --> 00:00:43,719 Pop Culture Crisis over at Timcast Media. You can find her on socials. 7 00:00:43,759 --> 00:00:48,000 Her Instagram and Twitter are at Mary Archived. Mary, thanks for joining the 8 00:00:48,000 --> 00:00:51,799 show. Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to get into 9 00:00:51,840 --> 00:00:57,840 Taylor Swift with you. I'm very excited about this too, But tell us 10 00:00:57,840 --> 00:01:00,880 a little bit before we dive into Taylor. Although I know we're both like 11 00:01:00,920 --> 00:01:03,560 sort of champion at the bit to get into Taylor, but can you tell 12 00:01:03,640 --> 00:01:07,439 us a little bit about I mean, you're doing such interesting work over at 13 00:01:07,439 --> 00:01:11,280 tim Cast, could you tell us a little bit about Hya ended up over 14 00:01:11,319 --> 00:01:17,239 at tim Cast co hosting pop Culture Crisis? What led you there? Sure? 15 00:01:17,359 --> 00:01:23,680 So about a year ago? I started there in April twenty twenty two, 16 00:01:23,719 --> 00:01:29,799 I believe, and Tim basically wanted to launch this show that is a 17 00:01:29,840 --> 00:01:34,560 political which is far from what he does, and me and Brett Dasavik hosted. 18 00:01:34,120 --> 00:01:38,319 He was originally on it. I joined it a few months after they 19 00:01:38,359 --> 00:01:42,040 initially launched it, and we just clicked. It went really well, and 20 00:01:42,079 --> 00:01:47,879 I like that we get to talk about fun stuff, like lighthearted stuff instead 21 00:01:47,920 --> 00:01:53,519 of you know, Ukraine and elections and vaccines and just stuff like that. 22 00:01:53,599 --> 00:02:00,359 Like it's more my speed. And I think that conservatives have underest made the 23 00:02:00,359 --> 00:02:06,280 importance of cultural issues for far too long, so we can take a step 24 00:02:06,319 --> 00:02:09,039 in the right direction by paying attention to those issues and really having cultural influence. 25 00:02:09,879 --> 00:02:14,599 How did you get linked up with the Tim Cast, guys? I 26 00:02:14,680 --> 00:02:19,639 was actually friends with Tim's editor in chief, Cassandra Fairbanks, who was now 27 00:02:19,719 --> 00:02:23,599 Cassandra McDonald. She was Fairbanks when I met her, so yeah, she 28 00:02:23,719 --> 00:02:29,240 recommended me for the role, and I visited the place and pretty much did 29 00:02:29,520 --> 00:02:34,199 an informal interview and ended up working out. It was pretty random. It 30 00:02:34,319 --> 00:02:38,919 was actually very unexpected for me, a very unexpected turn in my life after 31 00:02:38,120 --> 00:02:45,439 I dropped out of college, which is again like an unconventional way to go 32 00:02:45,479 --> 00:02:49,120 about things. But now I'm twenty three and I feel like I'm on a 33 00:02:49,199 --> 00:02:53,879 pretty good path considering that I don't have a college degree. I mean, 34 00:02:53,000 --> 00:02:58,479 dropping out of college for many people is actually a fantastic idea. Yeah, 35 00:02:58,560 --> 00:03:00,479 I think more people should do it. To be honest, I'm like a 36 00:03:00,520 --> 00:03:07,199 little bit proud of being a college dropout. I'm not gonna lie like I'm 37 00:03:07,199 --> 00:03:10,560 doing life on hard mode in a way. Hey, you know it's it's 38 00:03:12,879 --> 00:03:17,039 you can't go to college to be a co host of pop culture Crisis, 39 00:03:17,080 --> 00:03:21,199 you know, like when am I going to major in podcasting? Like, 40 00:03:21,319 --> 00:03:24,919 I'm sorry, what, But let's get into Taylor because you wrote a piece 41 00:03:24,960 --> 00:03:30,240 over at timcast dot com with the headline Taylor Swift is changing her old song 42 00:03:30,400 --> 00:03:35,520 lyrics for feminism, and we talk actually, man, going back years, 43 00:03:35,960 --> 00:03:39,719 we've had a lot of conversations about Taylor Swift on this podcast about you know, 44 00:03:39,719 --> 00:03:44,599 we cover for women's issues a lot, but Taylor Swift is one of 45 00:03:44,719 --> 00:03:52,199 the most I think emblematic sort of cringe millennial people in our popular culture. 46 00:03:52,240 --> 00:03:53,759 And this is part what you're what you write about, I think is part 47 00:03:53,759 --> 00:03:58,680 of the reason why tell us a little bit about how she's changing her lyrics 48 00:03:58,680 --> 00:04:01,560 and what that has to do with femine. Yeah. So it's interesting with 49 00:04:01,599 --> 00:04:09,240 Taylor Swift because she had this millennial fan base of millennial girls in the two 50 00:04:09,280 --> 00:04:15,280 thousands and the twenty tens, and somehow she went through this lullen popularity between 51 00:04:15,360 --> 00:04:19,639 reputation and folklore, I think, and then really had a huge resurgence and 52 00:04:19,680 --> 00:04:27,120 now has a mainly gen Z female audience that didn't really have much familiarity with 53 00:04:27,160 --> 00:04:30,959 her early work. And I'm a fan of her country music era more so 54 00:04:30,000 --> 00:04:34,639 than her more recent stuff. So if you look back at her old songs, 55 00:04:34,759 --> 00:04:40,240 it's stuff that I think a lot of gen Z girls really wouldn't appreciate 56 00:04:40,800 --> 00:04:46,079 for its honesty. And this is literally from a teenage girl's perspective. She's 57 00:04:46,120 --> 00:04:51,800 writing this in high school. And one of them is called better than Revenge, 58 00:04:53,279 --> 00:05:00,720 and it's about being the crazy ex girlfriend taking jabs the girl that you 59 00:05:00,800 --> 00:05:04,959 perceived to have stolen your man from you. And this is petty high school 60 00:05:05,000 --> 00:05:10,240 stuff, like nothing to be surprised at. It's ridiculous if you think that 61 00:05:10,279 --> 00:05:14,720 this doesn't happen. But some of the lyrics in that song were called misogynistic 62 00:05:15,480 --> 00:05:18,240 because you know, she's saying she's not a saint. She's not what you 63 00:05:18,279 --> 00:05:21,240 think. She's an actress. She's better known for the things that she does 64 00:05:21,360 --> 00:05:28,600 on the mattress and now that would be called slut shaving, and a lot 65 00:05:28,600 --> 00:05:33,199 of gen Z fans really didn't understand it. But when she's been re recording 66 00:05:33,240 --> 00:05:39,680 these older songs, it's a subtle change. They see that she's changed from 67 00:05:39,680 --> 00:05:46,000 the original lyrics to something more benign to avoid criticism, and a lot of 68 00:05:46,000 --> 00:05:49,600 the fans are like, wait, no, I appreciated that song for what 69 00:05:49,639 --> 00:05:55,680 it was. Like, It's a song, not social engineering, right, 70 00:05:55,800 --> 00:06:00,519 Like, it's supposed to express what you're feeling, not necessarily rock to you 71 00:06:00,800 --> 00:06:04,240 on how to relate to other people. Right. That's so, that is 72 00:06:04,279 --> 00:06:10,720 a really really important point. I think that music is it should be visceral. 73 00:06:10,920 --> 00:06:15,279 It should not be an essay, right yessay is something that you go 74 00:06:15,399 --> 00:06:18,680 back to and perfect. But the beauty of music and the beauty of art 75 00:06:18,720 --> 00:06:21,920 in general, is that it's actually supposed to be uh you know this, 76 00:06:23,519 --> 00:06:30,639 your emotion channeled into something beautiful, channeled in something that is beyond just the 77 00:06:30,680 --> 00:06:33,839 sort of conversation that you might have with a friend, but reflects the same 78 00:06:34,079 --> 00:06:38,240 emotions of it, and she Mary, could you give us some background on 79 00:06:38,439 --> 00:06:45,959 why she's re recording the songs the whole uh Big Machine Records situation. Right, 80 00:06:46,079 --> 00:06:48,560 So, from what I understand, especially as Scooter Braun has been in 81 00:06:48,600 --> 00:06:54,199 the media recently losing a lot of his clients, it looks like Taylor Swift 82 00:06:54,240 --> 00:06:58,079 is doing some kind of black magic ritual against him to curse his career. 83 00:06:58,519 --> 00:07:01,279 But the fact of the matter is that he's just going through an evolution in 84 00:07:01,319 --> 00:07:05,399 his career and his contracts have been expiring for a long time now. But 85 00:07:06,040 --> 00:07:11,480 Schooner Braun is essentially the villain in this story. According to Swifties, he 86 00:07:11,680 --> 00:07:17,800 acquired her songs under Big Machine Records. She's now with Republic Records. She's 87 00:07:17,839 --> 00:07:25,519 rerecording her albums under Republic Records so that she can own her music. It's 88 00:07:25,839 --> 00:07:30,319 a it's a whole long tangent and it's a whole saga. But she's actually 89 00:07:30,360 --> 00:07:35,720 about to release her rerecorded version of nineteen eighty nine. I'm really excited for 90 00:07:35,759 --> 00:07:42,240 her actually to rerecord her first album, her self titled album, because I 91 00:07:42,279 --> 00:07:45,800 just want country music Taylor back. I really do. I think those are 92 00:07:45,800 --> 00:07:48,920 her best songs. I love your point, And I had never thought about 93 00:07:48,920 --> 00:07:54,519 this because I'm basically the same age as Taylor Swift and so was in high 94 00:07:54,519 --> 00:07:57,839 school when the country records were coming out and she was like the hot new 95 00:07:57,879 --> 00:08:03,160 thing in the country music scene, but hadn't quite become what she she eventually 96 00:08:03,160 --> 00:08:07,199 became, which was someone who actually brought other people, brought new audiences, 97 00:08:07,319 --> 00:08:11,279 and I think forever changed country music because of the new audiences that she specifically 98 00:08:11,360 --> 00:08:16,879 brought into the genre. That was her. That's sort of like what people 99 00:08:18,439 --> 00:08:22,800 my age like around thirty. That's what we know her for was those early 100 00:08:22,879 --> 00:08:26,560 records. Even when they got you know, even when you got closer to 101 00:08:26,600 --> 00:08:30,959 like the Red album, whatever it was, it still was a very very 102 00:08:31,000 --> 00:08:33,519 different version than the folklore version. And I honestly, until you said that, 103 00:08:33,559 --> 00:08:37,039 had never thought about if you're getting introduced to Taylor and the sort of 104 00:08:37,080 --> 00:08:43,679 folklore era as Swifty, say, yeah, how different of an introduction that 105 00:08:43,840 --> 00:08:48,000 is, and how that much How that must change the way people see her 106 00:08:48,799 --> 00:08:52,919 coming in at that kind of point in her career, right, And if 107 00:08:52,960 --> 00:08:58,279 you look at her evolution from country music to pop, it was done expertly 108 00:08:58,440 --> 00:09:01,360 well. And I think this was her natural evolution as an artist, and 109 00:09:01,360 --> 00:09:05,320 she's free to do that. That's fine. I appreciate the country music more 110 00:09:05,480 --> 00:09:11,879 than the pop music, that's fine. But she exited country music in a 111 00:09:11,919 --> 00:09:16,480 way that was actually expedient for her career because she's a good little capitalist and 112 00:09:16,559 --> 00:09:20,399 she knows, you know, the going mainstream is it makes her more money. 113 00:09:20,919 --> 00:09:26,679 And instead of you know, crapping on country music and country music fans 114 00:09:28,120 --> 00:09:33,080 and the whole culture and history around it, like Marion Morris has, she 115 00:09:33,759 --> 00:09:37,559 you know, shows her respects to it. She gives country music it's flowers, 116 00:09:39,080 --> 00:09:41,320 and you know, she's moved on from it for other reasons. Marion 117 00:09:41,399 --> 00:09:48,000 Morris is talking about getting out of country music because she's somehow a victim of 118 00:09:48,039 --> 00:09:52,679 it and she doesn't like the country music fans. I mean, it's just 119 00:09:52,799 --> 00:09:58,320 never a good move to have an antagonistic relationship with the people who are literally 120 00:09:58,480 --> 00:10:01,720 like allowing you to make a money money off of half of your art form, 121 00:10:01,840 --> 00:10:07,399 right it's very I just found it incredibly distasteful the way that she talked 122 00:10:07,399 --> 00:10:11,279 about country music fans. And it's not people like Marion Morris who are at 123 00:10:11,320 --> 00:10:15,639 the top of country music right now. It's people like Morgan Wallen and Jason 124 00:10:15,679 --> 00:10:22,480 Haldane. It's funny because Marion Morris had this very her story is really interesting 125 00:10:22,519 --> 00:10:28,320 because she was one of the first artists who broke through with streaming and not 126 00:10:28,440 --> 00:10:33,919 with radio and the country format and country radio has like actually clung to power 127 00:10:33,960 --> 00:10:37,840 as a gatekeeper more than other radio genres or more than radio's importance and other 128 00:10:37,840 --> 00:10:43,919 genres. But with My Church, she really did circumvent the radio kind of 129 00:10:43,960 --> 00:10:50,000 circuit and took off with streaming, and so she has she has a different 130 00:10:50,240 --> 00:10:54,440 fan base, and I don't know that she would have had that fan base 131 00:10:54,600 --> 00:10:58,879 if Taylor Swift hadn't gone before her and sort of playing through the seats of 132 00:10:58,919 --> 00:11:07,320 all of these like young ish more sort of like urban suburban, middle class 133 00:11:07,639 --> 00:11:09,759 women. And that's that's kind of like what we were talking about when Taylor 134 00:11:09,799 --> 00:11:13,759 Swift change country music. Uh, it's sort of like the kind of like 135 00:11:13,840 --> 00:11:20,039 carpool country music, carpool lane country music. Mary Moore steps right into that. 136 00:11:20,480 --> 00:11:24,600 Now you have kind of half country fans, traditional country fans and half 137 00:11:26,159 --> 00:11:31,519 like carpool moms, and it's it's just such a mix of carpool moms. 138 00:11:31,559 --> 00:11:35,960 I like that term we call it the carpool lane here, and it is 139 00:11:37,000 --> 00:11:41,200 true because it's like it's it's just some of it is so so bad and 140 00:11:41,279 --> 00:11:46,559 so safe and lame for country music. But at the same time, sorry 141 00:11:46,559 --> 00:11:50,879 I'm rambling here, but I think it's it's really with with Marion Morris. 142 00:11:52,440 --> 00:11:56,120 Shit, it's with Taylor Swift. They don't want the traditional country fans. 143 00:11:56,120 --> 00:12:00,240 You just made such an important point. Tell us a little bit more about 144 00:12:00,279 --> 00:12:03,879 that, because Mary and Morris said just this week that she's she told the 145 00:12:03,960 --> 00:12:09,679 La Times I'm leaving country music. She specifically said during the Trump administration, 146 00:12:09,799 --> 00:12:13,960 everybody's biases were laid bare, that country music like try that in a small 147 00:12:13,960 --> 00:12:16,759 town, is now about owning the libs. She said that there was racism, 148 00:12:16,840 --> 00:12:22,759 homophobia, and I think she said transphobia. Yes, industry fan base, 149 00:12:22,039 --> 00:12:28,759 all of that. Just please Mary go off. Yeah, there are 150 00:12:28,840 --> 00:12:33,840 others like Marion Morris too in country music, like Casey Musgraves, Kelsey Ballerini, 151 00:12:35,399 --> 00:12:43,600 these types of people who really seem like infiltraders in a culture where like 152 00:12:43,679 --> 00:12:50,159 country music fans, I'm thinking of like people with more conservative or traditional values 153 00:12:50,159 --> 00:12:54,720 and Marion Morris just like flies in the face of that. She's saying she's 154 00:12:54,840 --> 00:12:58,519 leaving country music and releases this song, get the Hell out of Here, 155 00:13:00,080 --> 00:13:03,600 and she's working with Jack Antonov, who is a big producer for Taylor Swift 156 00:13:05,279 --> 00:13:07,960 and Lana del Rey and lots of female artists that are big right now. 157 00:13:09,559 --> 00:13:15,000 She says she's leaving because of what she views as the country country music industry's 158 00:13:15,159 --> 00:13:20,919 unwillingness to reckon with its history of racism and misogyny and to open its gates 159 00:13:20,960 --> 00:13:26,799 to more women, queer people, and people of color. I don't think 160 00:13:26,799 --> 00:13:31,759 that country music really has ever had a problem with, at least inclusion of 161 00:13:31,120 --> 00:13:37,559 women. There are so many women in country music who came before her that 162 00:13:37,879 --> 00:13:43,720 already broke that glass ceiling. I don't think she's really doing anything new or 163 00:13:43,759 --> 00:13:50,159 revolutionary with country music, and I guess it makes sense that she's leaving now 164 00:13:50,240 --> 00:13:56,639 because she's going to find more popularity in the mainstream by doing pop anyway. 165 00:13:58,000 --> 00:14:03,759 But she does like the country music fan base. And this happens a lot 166 00:14:03,799 --> 00:14:09,320 with movies and television too. People who create things and they want to dictate 167 00:14:11,159 --> 00:14:15,919 who is allowed to enjoy what they've made and how they're allowed to enjoy it. 168 00:14:16,159 --> 00:14:18,519 And how they're allowed to interpret it. But once you've put something out 169 00:14:18,559 --> 00:14:22,559 there, it's for everyone else to decide why they like it. You know, 170 00:14:22,759 --> 00:14:30,720 it takes a lot of hubrists to dictate to other people how they're supposed 171 00:14:30,720 --> 00:14:37,759 to interpret your art. 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Yeah, it actually reminds me of Taylor Swift's you Need to 195 00:16:23,320 --> 00:16:30,480 Call Them Down music video which twenty eighteen, where she has uh these by 196 00:16:30,519 --> 00:16:41,519 the way, all white toothless kind of hillbilly characters protesting her and her character. 197 00:16:41,559 --> 00:16:45,519 In this music video, which is just her as because of a gay 198 00:16:45,559 --> 00:16:49,279 marriage and like gay stuff, which again, like I wrote about this at 199 00:16:49,279 --> 00:16:53,559 the time, like the population that has the highest opposition to gay marriage is 200 00:16:55,080 --> 00:17:00,200 not white people, it's the black community. But she does not have the 201 00:17:00,080 --> 00:17:04,720 audacity, she doesn't have the courage and really wants to you know, stick 202 00:17:04,759 --> 00:17:07,880 it to those people. Uh, she really wants to stick it to those 203 00:17:07,880 --> 00:17:12,720 people who still just haven't come around on gay marriage. She's taking the cheap 204 00:17:12,720 --> 00:17:17,440 and easy shot that's going to satisfy a very particular group of the country, 205 00:17:18,279 --> 00:17:22,440 and that would be sort of educated elites. But actually isn't even true. 206 00:17:22,559 --> 00:17:25,920 And I don't think she even knows that it's not true, because she has 207 00:17:26,000 --> 00:17:32,880 the same like she's she's such a perfect example of this like millennial white woman 208 00:17:33,480 --> 00:17:37,920 who has you know, quote done the work and like was scrolling Tumblr in 209 00:17:37,279 --> 00:17:44,440 twenty fifteen reading these feminist quotes and thought that meant she had been enlightened and 210 00:17:44,480 --> 00:17:51,160 horizons have been brought in. But because our culture's version of a virtue and 211 00:17:51,599 --> 00:17:56,519 of you know, politics is so insipid and basic and stupid, that's what 212 00:17:56,680 --> 00:18:00,680 she imbibed. Like I think she's a perfectly smart person, but what she's 213 00:18:00,759 --> 00:18:03,559 spinning back out is what our culture is telling her spit back out, and 214 00:18:03,599 --> 00:18:07,759 it's just so dumb it doesn't even make sense. I think Taylor Swift is 215 00:18:08,400 --> 00:18:17,839 excellent at articulating herself about herself and about her own emotions. I don't look 216 00:18:18,000 --> 00:18:22,079 to her as some kind of political thought leader. And she was known and 217 00:18:23,039 --> 00:18:30,279 notorious and criticized very harshly for so so long for not being politically outspoken and 218 00:18:30,880 --> 00:18:37,000 quote unquote using her platform for good. And it took her a long time 219 00:18:37,079 --> 00:18:42,640 to actually become this uh politically outspoken. It started in twenty eighteen, I 220 00:18:42,720 --> 00:18:48,519 think. But then when she put out her documentary Miss Americana in twenty twenty, 221 00:18:48,519 --> 00:18:53,960 I believe that's why a whole part of the documentary was about, you 222 00:18:55,000 --> 00:18:59,599 know, coming to grips with like her responsibility for her platform and for her 223 00:18:59,599 --> 00:19:07,119 fan to uh, you know instructed. I'm on on civic, you know, 224 00:19:07,279 --> 00:19:12,960 like their civic participation, and it's like her her you know bravery so 225 00:19:14,039 --> 00:19:22,160 to say for endorsing Democrat politicians. It's just like it's so vapid and meaningless. 226 00:19:22,359 --> 00:19:26,200 And and she did that at just the moment when it became strategically beneficial 227 00:19:26,279 --> 00:19:30,640 for her to do it. It's it's not brave. That is such a 228 00:19:30,640 --> 00:19:34,599 good point. Yes, it was after Trump and she was getting criticized enormously 229 00:19:34,759 --> 00:19:40,519 for staying like silent during the Trump phase. And you know, they always 230 00:19:40,680 --> 00:19:45,359 trot out the Dixie Chicks line, They always trot out the h There was 231 00:19:45,400 --> 00:19:49,039 this DJ that was caught on tape like ten years ago talking about how women 232 00:19:49,039 --> 00:19:53,480 are the tomatoes and the country music radio salad, so they're just sort of 233 00:19:53,799 --> 00:20:00,880 the there there. What's the best way to put this, almost a aside 234 00:20:00,000 --> 00:20:03,519 to the lettuce. And what's funny about that, as the theory has always 235 00:20:03,559 --> 00:20:07,799 been people who listen to country radio are women, and women want to hear 236 00:20:07,839 --> 00:20:12,200 male artists like the way that it was just rationalized for a really long time. 237 00:20:12,279 --> 00:20:17,799 So women in country music have had have somewhat clung to that victimhood narrative. 238 00:20:18,079 --> 00:20:22,279 And Taylor Swift then comes out as harold and as brave because people who 239 00:20:22,319 --> 00:20:26,079 know absolutely nothing about country music. And it's the same thing with the Marion 240 00:20:26,160 --> 00:20:32,960 Morris story. Emily Nussbaum at The New Yorker was just like you could you 241 00:20:33,000 --> 00:20:38,400 could hear the applause from Brooklyn emanating through the country. When Marion Morris made 242 00:20:38,400 --> 00:20:41,599 her statement to the La Times this week and like, this is a Pulitzer 243 00:20:41,599 --> 00:20:48,319 Prize winning journalist with awards, with degrees from like Ivy League institutions. She 244 00:20:48,440 --> 00:20:55,559 lives in Brooklyn, and she's telling people what she knows about the country music 245 00:20:55,759 --> 00:21:02,160 fans. It is just nobody understands country music in uh. I would argue, 246 00:21:02,200 --> 00:21:04,960 like the so called mainstream media. Yeah, I think you know, 247 00:21:06,200 --> 00:21:10,480 maybe it's better to keep it that way, right, Like, uh, 248 00:21:11,599 --> 00:21:15,759 the in the La Times interview, they asked her, like, well, 249 00:21:15,920 --> 00:21:22,359 if people are making these songs to quote unquote own the libs and you're leaving 250 00:21:22,440 --> 00:21:29,480 country music because of it, has the lib not been owned? You just 251 00:21:29,720 --> 00:21:36,160 retreated because you were getting criticized. It is it is the lib getting owned, 252 00:21:36,599 --> 00:21:38,000 and you know, maybe we're we're going to be better off for it, 253 00:21:38,000 --> 00:21:41,799 and country music is going to be better off for it, because uh, 254 00:21:42,359 --> 00:21:45,160 you know, in that music video she was for the Tree, she 255 00:21:45,240 --> 00:21:51,519 was clearly taking shots at Jason Aldean for try that in a small town. 256 00:21:52,680 --> 00:22:00,160 And the response to that song was just absolutely unhinged. People talking about like 257 00:22:00,200 --> 00:22:07,200 it's a reference to Lynishing, It's a reference to sundowntowns And it's just like, 258 00:22:07,720 --> 00:22:11,079 I get that it's a little bit hypocritical for someone like Jason Aldean, 259 00:22:11,160 --> 00:22:14,640 who is rich and lives in a big city to talk about the values of 260 00:22:14,720 --> 00:22:19,240 small communities. But I mean what he said clearly still resonated with them. 261 00:22:21,279 --> 00:22:25,720 That's something that people like Marion Morris are just not capable of doing or empathizing 262 00:22:25,759 --> 00:22:30,039 with. Yeah, and it's not like she doesn't have to agree with him 263 00:22:30,039 --> 00:22:34,359 whatsoever, But to act as that you have the moral high ground by calling 264 00:22:34,359 --> 00:22:40,839 country music fans you're racist, homophobic, transphobic, whatever is so gross. 265 00:22:41,119 --> 00:22:44,920 And actually I wanted to ask you when you were talking about all of this, 266 00:22:45,720 --> 00:22:48,799 why is it that that you started listening to country music? Why do 267 00:22:48,839 --> 00:22:52,160 you think you like country music? Mary? Oh gosh. I mean, 268 00:22:52,240 --> 00:22:56,799 I don't think of myself as like a big country music fan because I don't. 269 00:22:56,559 --> 00:23:02,079 I'm not listening to Hank Williams and like Johnny Cash and like the people 270 00:23:02,119 --> 00:23:06,599 who really made it what it was. I like radio country music that has 271 00:23:06,640 --> 00:23:11,440 been super like watered down and deluded, but like I like it for what 272 00:23:11,519 --> 00:23:15,480 it is, that's what it is. I like it as it is. 273 00:23:15,559 --> 00:23:18,039 I mean, I think I think that try That in This Whole Town was 274 00:23:18,079 --> 00:23:19,680 a really catchy song, and I was, like, you know, screaming 275 00:23:19,720 --> 00:23:26,160 it out in my car. But it's definitely not anything like what country music 276 00:23:26,359 --> 00:23:32,640 was decades ago, right, Yeah, and listening to country like when when 277 00:23:32,640 --> 00:23:37,359 you were younger did you start listening to it? Yeah? I really liked 278 00:23:37,920 --> 00:23:41,359 Taylor Swift's country music, for instance, because that was I was the target 279 00:23:41,359 --> 00:23:49,480 demographic for it pretty much. I moved actually from Maryland to North Carolina during 280 00:23:49,480 --> 00:23:55,200 my childhood and I heard a lot more of it and was around more people 281 00:23:55,200 --> 00:23:57,160 who listened to it, So I guess that had something to do with it. 282 00:23:57,960 --> 00:24:04,960 But I think the important part is I'm not trying to I'm not saying 283 00:24:06,000 --> 00:24:11,799 like I'm the country purist and I dictate what it's supposed to be. I'm 284 00:24:11,839 --> 00:24:17,119 just willing to appreciate it for what it is and not you know, throw 285 00:24:17,240 --> 00:24:21,440 vitriol at the people who enjoy it. Did you like mar And Morris when 286 00:24:21,480 --> 00:24:25,119 she first came on the scene. No, I never listened to her music. 287 00:24:25,160 --> 00:24:30,480 I liked I looked some of Casey Musgrave's music when she first popped up 288 00:24:30,519 --> 00:24:36,079 on the scene, but like she's kind of gone woke pretty badly too. 289 00:24:36,200 --> 00:24:41,960 She had like transactors in her music videos. I don't know, these people 290 00:24:41,000 --> 00:24:45,759 are just a joke to me. She's kind of gone this like die parton 291 00:24:45,880 --> 00:24:52,440 route where she got. Really there was something very camp about Kasey Musgraves that 292 00:24:52,160 --> 00:24:59,319 hed this like huge mainstream and I think I would say like LGBT fan base, 293 00:24:59,440 --> 00:25:02,200 and she rolled with it, you know, probably because of the money, 294 00:25:02,240 --> 00:25:06,759 but also probably because she had that song follow Your Arrow like it Yes, 295 00:25:07,160 --> 00:25:12,839 which was sort of libertarian, a very like American libertarian ethos. She's 296 00:25:12,880 --> 00:25:17,240 to me not quite as obnoxious as Taylor Swift and Marion Morris are though, 297 00:25:17,279 --> 00:25:21,759 because she's I think she's smarter than them. I don't know. That's my 298 00:25:21,880 --> 00:25:27,680 take on Casey Musgraves. I'm not sure you're skeptical. Yeah, yeah, 299 00:25:27,720 --> 00:25:33,480 well, but Following Your Arrow was like, I think that was really controversial 300 00:25:33,519 --> 00:25:37,319 at the time that it came out, and she was talking about how it 301 00:25:37,400 --> 00:25:44,440 was like suppressed on getting radio plays and stuff like that. But I mean 302 00:25:45,000 --> 00:25:48,440 it's, like you said, it can do better on streaming anyway. Yeah, 303 00:25:48,519 --> 00:25:52,799 that's true. And it's just fundamentally changed country music because now so many 304 00:25:52,799 --> 00:25:56,799 country music fans. I mean Marion Morris. One of her biggest songs was 305 00:25:56,799 --> 00:26:00,559 was with Z. It wasn't even like remotely a country song, and that 306 00:26:00,640 --> 00:26:07,599 like catapulted her into mainstream sort of notoriety. But I think to some extent 307 00:26:07,599 --> 00:26:11,240 it's great that genres are mixing and blending. And to your point, you 308 00:26:11,240 --> 00:26:14,640 know, there are a lot of people who try to act sorts as gatekeepers, 309 00:26:14,680 --> 00:26:17,200 and I think there's a role for that in country music specifically, in 310 00:26:17,200 --> 00:26:22,200 the same way there's a role for that in blues and jazz and you know, 311 00:26:22,240 --> 00:26:27,359 American art forms, and that there should be something preserved about our history 312 00:26:27,480 --> 00:26:32,480 or legacy or traditions. So I get that. At the same time, 313 00:26:32,599 --> 00:26:36,440 it makes sense that if you have all of these new young fans streaming music, 314 00:26:37,279 --> 00:26:41,480 not super concerned about, you know, turning into one radio station that 315 00:26:41,480 --> 00:26:45,200 plays one kind of music and another radio station that plays another kind of music. 316 00:26:45,400 --> 00:26:48,519 It's just sort of all out there. I understand why people are making 317 00:26:48,559 --> 00:26:55,200 money the way that they do, but it is like this contempt for people 318 00:26:55,240 --> 00:26:59,759 who might be in enjoying your music, and they're sort of pride in that 319 00:27:00,000 --> 00:27:04,119 contempt going to the La Times and announcing it is just like having your coming 320 00:27:04,119 --> 00:27:08,240 out party as somebody who hates the people who made you famous, like Taylor 321 00:27:08,240 --> 00:27:12,960 Swift, and you need to calm down. Just attacking Hillbillies again, It's 322 00:27:14,000 --> 00:27:18,759 it's almost like they need license, Like this is their way of taking license 323 00:27:18,880 --> 00:27:22,680 to hang out with cool people, Like you got to earn your way into 324 00:27:22,680 --> 00:27:26,039 the Hollywood circles by knocking the people that made you famous. Yeah, they 325 00:27:26,079 --> 00:27:32,480 have that extreme thirst for validation from the mainstream, don't they. And it's 326 00:27:33,519 --> 00:27:37,960 reflected in so many other areas of pop culture as well. I mean even 327 00:27:38,240 --> 00:27:45,680 even gamer Gate, which is considered the thing that really kicked off the culture 328 00:27:45,680 --> 00:27:49,680 war as we know it today, and it's been almost i think it's been 329 00:27:51,200 --> 00:27:56,480 a literal decade since that happened. That was, you know, the gaming 330 00:27:56,519 --> 00:28:03,319 industry having contempt for its own fan base, and then you see it in 331 00:28:03,640 --> 00:28:10,039 in comic books as well, like then you see it in movies and television. 332 00:28:10,200 --> 00:28:14,440 It's everywhere, and you can feel the contempt that that these Hollywood elites 333 00:28:14,799 --> 00:28:18,160 in the entertainment industry as a whole have for the people who make it possible 334 00:28:18,240 --> 00:28:22,200 for them to make a living. Yeah. But the good news is that 335 00:28:22,279 --> 00:28:26,440 with new media. And actually with the streaming era, you have people and 336 00:28:26,559 --> 00:28:30,599 oh my gosh, I don't want to even get into Tyler Childers who have 337 00:28:30,720 --> 00:28:36,680 never particularly liked, but you do help Childers. Yeah, yeah, okay, 338 00:28:36,720 --> 00:28:41,440 I had no idea. Yeah, yeah, it's it's Childers. But 339 00:28:41,880 --> 00:28:49,559 he always there's the like hicklib archetype that sort of people are flushing out now 340 00:28:49,599 --> 00:28:55,440 and who's always been in that vein. That doesn't make me dislike him because 341 00:28:55,480 --> 00:29:00,519 of that. It's just sometimes people's fans make you not like people. It's 342 00:29:00,559 --> 00:29:06,039 just hard to get around that sometimes. But still people with more traditional sounds 343 00:29:06,079 --> 00:29:08,119 have been able to take off and country fans are able to find what they're 344 00:29:08,119 --> 00:29:11,160 looking for. So that's all great. And it actually is sort of a 345 00:29:11,200 --> 00:29:15,000 parallel to new media like tim cast right, Like if you're not getting what 346 00:29:15,000 --> 00:29:21,519 you want to get from you know, CNN or ESPN or you know, 347 00:29:21,920 --> 00:29:26,079 the view, you can you have options now. And in some way that's 348 00:29:26,119 --> 00:29:30,880 really good too, because it's the market is kind of doing its thing and 349 00:29:30,359 --> 00:29:37,400 speaking to and letting new voices shine. You're so right about that hicklib archetype 350 00:29:37,319 --> 00:29:48,880 of liberals who live in big cities getting mullets and wearing real tree and appropriating 351 00:29:48,920 --> 00:29:53,519 all of these esthetics of people that they hate with a passion for living in 352 00:29:53,559 --> 00:30:00,319 Middle America and in the salvin and rural areas in small towns. It's a 353 00:30:00,359 --> 00:30:04,920 really sinister trend. Tylan Shoulders, I do like his song Purgatory. I 354 00:30:04,920 --> 00:30:11,960 haven't listened to much of his other music, but yeah, I definitely noticed 355 00:30:12,119 --> 00:30:22,079 that hicklib trend with like city like urbanite, like liberal urbanites wanting to appropriate 356 00:30:22,119 --> 00:30:32,200 the aesthetics of those so called hillbillies that they hate so much. Hey, 357 00:30:32,279 --> 00:30:36,240 y'all, this is Sarah Carter, investigative columnists and host of The Sarah Carter 358 00:30:36,359 --> 00:30:40,559 Show. Thanks for listening to the Federalist. We all have a heartfelt reason 359 00:30:40,599 --> 00:30:42,519 to support our blood pressure. In fact, more than half of the US 360 00:30:42,599 --> 00:30:48,480 population would benefit from blood pressure support. Super Beats heart shoes are easy and 361 00:30:48,519 --> 00:30:52,240 convenient way to support healthy blood pressure and promote heart healthy energy paired with a 362 00:30:52,319 --> 00:30:57,039 healthy lifestyle. 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Get Superbeats dot com 371 00:31:33,839 --> 00:31:38,079 code Sarah to get fifteen percent off your first order. Get Superbeats dot Com 372 00:31:38,240 --> 00:31:45,640 promo code Sarah. Yeah, I agree. I think it's something about I 373 00:31:45,640 --> 00:31:49,640 mean, when you're looking for kind of purpose and meaning you can find it 374 00:31:49,680 --> 00:31:53,599 and punching down or punching able. It's just it's an easy way to do 375 00:31:53,640 --> 00:31:57,680 it. But yeah, Choulders he's great, like he actually makes really good 376 00:31:57,720 --> 00:32:01,920 traditional music. But just when he released the music video about like the gay 377 00:32:01,960 --> 00:32:07,000 coal miners that came him out around tried that in a small town or no, 378 00:32:07,119 --> 00:32:12,400 it was around when Oliver Anthony was It was like almost at the same 379 00:32:12,400 --> 00:32:21,000 time, and just the media calling Oliver Anthony like an Epstein like adult weirdo 380 00:32:21,079 --> 00:32:24,759 and being like Tyler Childers is bringing love and harmony to country music. These 381 00:32:24,799 --> 00:32:30,279 are just about market forces. They know who their their fans are, and 382 00:32:30,480 --> 00:32:32,599 it's not you know, it's sort of split. Like they have some traditional 383 00:32:34,039 --> 00:32:37,839 country music loving fans and then like Mary Morris because she she put out a 384 00:32:37,839 --> 00:32:40,160 great first album, and then they have some fans that are you know, 385 00:32:40,240 --> 00:32:45,559 like not at all in the same vein as those other fans. And so 386 00:32:46,039 --> 00:32:50,839 you know, what gets you into the mainstream, what gets you into the 387 00:32:51,079 --> 00:32:57,039 Hollywood parties, Well, it's like forcing yourself from the other fans and changing 388 00:32:57,079 --> 00:32:59,559 the culture in the process, and the rest of us just have to kind 389 00:32:59,599 --> 00:33:04,759 of deal with it. Yeah, the Rise of Oliver Anthony was very interesting 390 00:33:04,839 --> 00:33:08,559 to watch because I think they they hate you for not wanting to be part 391 00:33:08,559 --> 00:33:15,160 of their club, for not wanting to be invited to their parties and get 392 00:33:15,279 --> 00:33:20,359 record deals and tour like. I don't think he seems really interested in making 393 00:33:20,400 --> 00:33:27,960 this a career path for himself, Like this is just like a creative fulfillment 394 00:33:28,000 --> 00:33:31,759 thing for him, and he's He's also been accused of being one of these 395 00:33:31,839 --> 00:33:37,720 liberal like hiclibs too, just because he doesn't, you know, sell himself 396 00:33:37,759 --> 00:33:44,079 as some kind of political pundit, which I respect because everybody else is trying 397 00:33:44,160 --> 00:33:46,839 to become a political pundit instead of an artist. And I hate that the 398 00:33:46,880 --> 00:33:54,839 conservative side does have this, like this instinct to want every every artist that 399 00:33:54,880 --> 00:34:00,039 has like a tiny bit of common ground with us to become a political show 400 00:34:00,039 --> 00:34:07,239 clown. I'm glad that he's he's resistant turning into that. Yeah, no, 401 00:34:07,360 --> 00:34:12,760 that's super interesting. I mean country music has a long political history, 402 00:34:13,840 --> 00:34:17,599 and there's there's sort of nothing wrong with that, but the I think the 403 00:34:17,679 --> 00:34:25,639 climate now it rewards this like bumper sticker. Uh just vapid. You use 404 00:34:25,719 --> 00:34:31,719 that word earlier. It's perfect for this is like vapid, like unthinking, 405 00:34:32,599 --> 00:34:38,119 dumb like slogany politics, and it's it's not thoughtful at all, you know. 406 00:34:38,159 --> 00:34:43,920 I also wanted to ask I've read your piece about the whatever podcast and 407 00:34:44,559 --> 00:34:47,400 I don't know that like some of our some of our listeners are probably like 408 00:34:47,440 --> 00:34:52,639 out of the demo for whatever, but maybe have still seen clips and been 409 00:34:52,719 --> 00:34:55,800 like what the hell is this show? But can you talk to us a 410 00:34:55,800 --> 00:35:00,239 little bit about why you wrote about why the whatever podcasts like to go off 411 00:35:00,360 --> 00:35:02,800 and I thought your piece was really interesting. Could you tell us a little 412 00:35:02,800 --> 00:35:07,159 bit about why you think that podcast took off. Yeah, So, for 413 00:35:07,199 --> 00:35:13,280 any of the listeners that that aren't familiar with it, it's basically a panel 414 00:35:14,079 --> 00:35:20,320 dating talk show. The host Brian Alice. He invites girls who are on 415 00:35:20,320 --> 00:35:25,199 only fans or even just normal liberal college girls from that area it's in Santa 416 00:35:25,280 --> 00:35:34,719 Barbara, and also invites some people who are like influencers or political pundits as 417 00:35:34,760 --> 00:35:40,119 well, just to talk about like what a mess and what a hellscape the 418 00:35:40,320 --> 00:35:46,079 dating world has become in recent years, and it gets ugly on there sometimes 419 00:35:46,360 --> 00:35:52,079 and people really show their true colors. But I think my basic take on 420 00:35:52,119 --> 00:36:00,239 it was that people are are really thirsting for some honesty about out, you 421 00:36:00,280 --> 00:36:06,599 know, the part that women have to play in. You know, how 422 00:36:06,639 --> 00:36:13,920 bad the dating landscape has gotten, and any criticism of women has become like 423 00:36:14,000 --> 00:36:19,840 such a taboo that even like things like Fresh and Fit, where these hosts 424 00:36:19,880 --> 00:36:25,039 they just actually like yell at their guests and it's like a really antagonistic environment 425 00:36:25,880 --> 00:36:34,199 that is toxic in some ways, but it's overcorrecting for the issue everywhere else 426 00:36:34,320 --> 00:36:37,239 where. You know, men are always the problem. Men are at fault 427 00:36:37,239 --> 00:36:42,679 for everything, so let's just swing to the other extreme of the aisle. 428 00:36:43,320 --> 00:36:47,119 And when I went on the Whatever podcast, it was because it felt like 429 00:36:47,119 --> 00:36:51,639 this was just like taking over my algorithm, and all I was seeing is 430 00:36:51,639 --> 00:36:54,000 is clips of this podcast, Like what is this all about? So I 431 00:36:54,119 --> 00:36:59,639 just sent him a DM and was like, Hey, I'm a Catholic and 432 00:37:00,079 --> 00:37:06,199 I have some slightly more traditional views about dating and relationships, and I think 433 00:37:06,199 --> 00:37:13,440 I'd have some interesting perspectives to offer on there that aren't really quote unquote red 434 00:37:13,519 --> 00:37:19,199 pill. So I when I went on there, I was talking about, 435 00:37:19,239 --> 00:37:25,519 you know, the value of waiting until marriage, and you know, the 436 00:37:25,519 --> 00:37:30,760 fact that you shouldn't, you know, engage in hookup culture, not only 437 00:37:30,800 --> 00:37:36,400 because it makes you low value, but also because it hurts you. And 438 00:37:37,280 --> 00:37:40,800 you know, people just don't think about the consequences of their actions anymore. 439 00:37:43,480 --> 00:37:45,440 So I didn't want to go on there to just you know, shame women 440 00:37:45,920 --> 00:37:51,519 and you know, degrade them for making the wrong choices. I do want 441 00:37:51,519 --> 00:37:58,360 to just have a more positive perspective that, especially for the young girls that 442 00:37:58,440 --> 00:38:02,000 go on there, if you have all these years ahead of you in the 443 00:38:02,039 --> 00:38:07,440 prime of your life, don't don't abuse it. M M. I want 444 00:38:07,480 --> 00:38:10,880 to ask about that in this context of what we're talking about with country music 445 00:38:10,920 --> 00:38:16,119 with Taylor Swift and Mary Morris, because I think there's something really interesting going 446 00:38:16,159 --> 00:38:23,719 on with gen Z, which is this kind of nagging feeling that some of 447 00:38:23,880 --> 00:38:30,079 the h and I'll say this phrase agains again like cringe millennial. Some of 448 00:38:30,119 --> 00:38:37,800 the cringe millennial sloganeering about feminism, it's just become exhausting, and there's this 449 00:38:37,880 --> 00:38:40,880 kind of nagging sense that, you know, they want to get to the 450 00:38:40,880 --> 00:38:45,119 bottom of it, right, Like I'm going to go down this Wikipedia rabbit 451 00:38:45,119 --> 00:38:49,320 hole about you know, late at night with the just the globe of my 452 00:38:49,360 --> 00:38:53,599 phone, about you know what the feminist movement, how it started, like 453 00:38:53,639 --> 00:38:59,840 what it's all about. It's just this like seems like this simmering cry. 454 00:39:00,719 --> 00:39:04,000 And I feel like whatever is kind of an answer to that. But also 455 00:39:04,679 --> 00:39:08,039 I am a cringe millennial, so I'm trying to like help me, help 456 00:39:08,039 --> 00:39:15,400 me understand this. Mary, uh, the wait? So could you could 457 00:39:15,400 --> 00:39:21,199 you rephrase it? Of course, so that like whatever in the same way 458 00:39:21,239 --> 00:39:30,000 that whatever's almost a reaction to the bad takes that people like you big like 459 00:39:30,239 --> 00:39:37,480 corporate Behemith like Taylor Swift or Marion Morris and Hollywood in general are pushing on 460 00:39:38,519 --> 00:39:45,519 young women that there's this like curiosity, there's this nagging sense that something is 461 00:39:45,599 --> 00:39:47,400 off, and that like they need to get to the bottom. They they 462 00:39:47,400 --> 00:39:51,320 need to sort of talk and find the right answers to it. It just 463 00:39:51,360 --> 00:39:57,880 seems to me like it's almost a reaction to this, like corporate feminism. 464 00:39:55,519 --> 00:40:00,880 M Well, I guess there is kind of a an equal and opposite reaction 465 00:40:01,519 --> 00:40:08,840 when you're shoving these slogans down everyone's throats. Yeah, they're going to react 466 00:40:09,679 --> 00:40:16,480 sometimes in the opposite extreme, and that's not good either. So when I'm 467 00:40:16,519 --> 00:40:21,480 talking about the Whatever podcast, I'm not saying it's the solution to all of 468 00:40:21,519 --> 00:40:27,920 our problems. But this is the natural consequence of beating everyone over the head 469 00:40:28,039 --> 00:40:32,000 with slogans about female solidarity. And what I was talking about with Taylor Swift 470 00:40:32,079 --> 00:40:38,360 changing her lyrics earlier, she's doing it out of an obligation of this like 471 00:40:38,559 --> 00:40:49,360 nebulous idea of female solidarity, which is entirely meaningless. It just means celebrate 472 00:40:49,559 --> 00:40:54,480 all decisions that women make simply because it's their choice. Therefore it's good. 473 00:40:55,199 --> 00:41:01,000 And I think that Similarly, the whatever podcast us is reacting to that trend. 474 00:41:02,880 --> 00:41:08,719 The criticizing women is just totally off the table now, so you're going 475 00:41:08,760 --> 00:41:14,440 to get the other end, the toxic extreme, on the other end of 476 00:41:14,480 --> 00:41:17,199 the spectrum, and that's where you've gotten a lot of the red pill voices 477 00:41:17,480 --> 00:41:22,239 getting amplified now. Well. And one of the things I really liked about 478 00:41:22,239 --> 00:41:23,679 your pieces that if I think back, you know, ten years ago, 479 00:41:24,000 --> 00:41:29,800 people were not it was it was not acceptable that people would sit down literally 480 00:41:29,800 --> 00:41:34,000 across from each other at a table and have these conversations, even if they 481 00:41:34,039 --> 00:41:40,760 are like extremely nasty sometimes that I just think there's something really positive about the 482 00:41:40,800 --> 00:41:45,440 fact that these debates are happening. Period, Like when when I grew up, 483 00:41:45,480 --> 00:41:50,360 like people were celebrating that John Stewart got this show on CNN called Crossfire 484 00:41:50,440 --> 00:41:53,039 with Tucker Carlson and Paul Degala, and you had the left and the right 485 00:41:53,239 --> 00:41:59,199 arguing theatrically every single day about news of the day, about American politics and 486 00:41:59,280 --> 00:42:02,599 culture, and it was celebrated that that was taken off the air and canceled, 487 00:42:04,599 --> 00:42:07,800 And that's really bad. I mean, I think taking public debate away 488 00:42:07,960 --> 00:42:10,159 is a bad thing to do. It seems to me almost like it's a 489 00:42:10,199 --> 00:42:15,559 positive thing that people are at least like talking about some of the hardest questions, 490 00:42:15,800 --> 00:42:22,159 most painful questions, like sexual views abortion in this very public way. 491 00:42:22,960 --> 00:42:24,440 I don't know it just I liked your piece because I think it is a 492 00:42:25,119 --> 00:42:30,880 Conservatives may have some sense that because they are like only fans girls on it 493 00:42:30,039 --> 00:42:35,039 Whatever, that it's a bad thing, but actually it seems like it's at 494 00:42:35,119 --> 00:42:38,519 least a positive a step in a better direction, right, like sort of 495 00:42:38,559 --> 00:42:44,199 sunlight is the best disinfectant way of thinking about it. I won't lie. 496 00:42:44,280 --> 00:42:47,280 There are a lot of girls that go on the Whatever podcast solely to promote 497 00:42:47,239 --> 00:42:52,639 they're only fans. There's a reason that they don't pay their guests for appearances 498 00:42:52,719 --> 00:42:58,119 because they're they're getting paid in exposure either way. But you're right, it's 499 00:42:58,840 --> 00:43:06,360 what other recourse do we have for the damage that's been done by the cultural 500 00:43:06,440 --> 00:43:10,599 revolution and the sexual revolution, other than to just talk about it out in 501 00:43:10,639 --> 00:43:15,960 the open. Yeah, I agree, No, and I think your piece 502 00:43:16,039 --> 00:43:20,440 was really smart on that, thank you, And you know, just it 503 00:43:20,480 --> 00:43:23,599 also seems like there's something about it, like there's something in gen z, 504 00:43:23,880 --> 00:43:30,400 like there are some people who are just doing the sort of reflective TikTok feminist 505 00:43:30,519 --> 00:43:34,760 lib stuff. But also it just it does seem to me like everybody's just 506 00:43:34,840 --> 00:43:37,960 kind of looking for the right answer. They're just like looking for something. 507 00:43:38,039 --> 00:43:43,239 Like everyone's adrift, but they're looking. And I feel like with millennials, 508 00:43:43,519 --> 00:43:47,280 everyone thought that they had found the right answers, and gen Z is sort 509 00:43:47,320 --> 00:43:52,559 of reacting to that. And that's why I actually like your points about Taylor 510 00:43:52,559 --> 00:43:55,920 Swift and Mary Morris. They're so certain, they're so sure of their politics 511 00:43:55,960 --> 00:44:01,880 and their opinions. There's self righteous and I think actually like people younger, 512 00:44:02,119 --> 00:44:07,679 people in their early twenties right now are saying like, hey, we don't 513 00:44:07,880 --> 00:44:12,239 we feel like we've been lied to by kind of everyone, not just by 514 00:44:12,239 --> 00:44:15,880 the right, but just sort of by everyone. Yeah, they're like looking 515 00:44:15,920 --> 00:44:21,360 at these these liberals in media who are so sure of themselves, and they're 516 00:44:21,360 --> 00:44:24,360 like, wait, I'm I'm actually pretty lost as to where my place in 517 00:44:24,440 --> 00:44:30,960 society is. Yeah. I agree. I think that one of the huge 518 00:44:30,960 --> 00:44:37,400 issues with gen Z being able to like connect with each other, have close 519 00:44:37,440 --> 00:44:45,440 friendships and find relationships, and why they're not, you know, getting married 520 00:44:45,480 --> 00:44:47,159 as much, or they're not even partying as much, they're not having as 521 00:44:47,239 --> 00:44:54,239 much social connection. Is also because the political divide is getting more and more 522 00:44:54,280 --> 00:45:00,039 polarized within gen Z, so that you can see the gen Z guys are 523 00:45:00,039 --> 00:45:04,599 becoming more and more conservative, the gen Z girls are becoming more and more 524 00:45:04,679 --> 00:45:12,199 liberal. And I saw this this polling data recently that the majority of women 525 00:45:12,519 --> 00:45:16,480 eighteen to thirty four see it as a red flag if a guy listens to 526 00:45:16,599 --> 00:45:22,920 Joe Rogan. And it's like, if that's if that's on your list of 527 00:45:23,000 --> 00:45:30,039 red flags, you're never going to find a relationship because you have you have 528 00:45:30,280 --> 00:45:37,519 this arbitrary checklist of you know, what what a guy can do that's acceptable 529 00:45:37,639 --> 00:45:42,480 or unacceptable, what gives you the ick. It's really just a shield from 530 00:45:42,519 --> 00:45:47,960 actually, you know, having vulnerability and and finding true love and connection with 531 00:45:49,000 --> 00:45:52,639 somebody. I'm so glad you brought that up, because I don't think we've 532 00:45:52,679 --> 00:45:57,320 talked about this on the podcast yet. The polling on the polarization between gen 533 00:45:57,400 --> 00:46:01,119 Z men and women is nuts. Like people, it's it's just like if 534 00:46:01,119 --> 00:46:05,480 you if people could look at it, like visualize it, you have men 535 00:46:05,519 --> 00:46:09,559 and women just going in opposite directions and at like a really intense rate too. 536 00:46:09,639 --> 00:46:14,079 So yeah, the lines are just like you know, they're they're going 537 00:46:14,199 --> 00:46:19,239 like as far away from each other as you could imagine. Yes, Like 538 00:46:19,239 --> 00:46:24,559 when previously the cultural ebb and flow affected men and women pretty much the same 539 00:46:24,599 --> 00:46:31,559 way, like most millennials were more liberal and most Gen X were more libertarian. 540 00:46:32,239 --> 00:46:38,320 Before them, the Boomers were mostly conservative, and they sort of were 541 00:46:38,400 --> 00:46:44,719 like a unanimous group in that way. But Gen Z is seeming to be 542 00:46:45,079 --> 00:46:51,199 totally opposite. They're they're splitting off in two opposite directions, and it's scary 543 00:46:51,280 --> 00:46:57,199 because you know, you need to care about aligning with someone on your foundational 544 00:46:57,280 --> 00:47:05,480 values to uh have a long lasting relationship and also to like teach your children 545 00:47:05,599 --> 00:47:10,400 those values. It's really worrying. Oh my gosh, this is so depressing. 546 00:47:12,079 --> 00:47:15,960 I know, I know, because it's like, you know, how 547 00:47:15,000 --> 00:47:20,360 do you sort of square that circle? How do you bring people together for 548 00:47:20,519 --> 00:47:28,199 marriages and communities and families when these divisions are First of all, the golf 549 00:47:28,239 --> 00:47:31,960 is getting bigger and bigger, and also it's getting people are less willing to 550 00:47:31,960 --> 00:47:36,840 sort of build a bridge between one side or the other because it violates what 551 00:47:36,880 --> 00:47:40,880 they see as their sort of fundamental and moral code. Yeah. I mean, 552 00:47:40,920 --> 00:47:45,159 if we're looking for a silver lining or a bright side to all of 553 00:47:45,199 --> 00:47:52,960 this, I'm not I'm not sure if it's it's that much of a consolation, 554 00:47:52,280 --> 00:47:57,920 But I think that the members of gen Z, who who are leaning 555 00:47:57,960 --> 00:48:01,320 more traditional, who do want these things. They want marriage and family, 556 00:48:01,360 --> 00:48:07,880 and they want to own houses and all these things that seem like just totally 557 00:48:07,920 --> 00:48:14,239 impossible increasingly, they really want it. They really do. And actually, 558 00:48:14,360 --> 00:48:19,719 coming from a Catholic perspective, when I look at the Christian dating world, 559 00:48:19,760 --> 00:48:25,280 but specific specifically the Catholic dating world, it's like the secular, you know, 560 00:48:25,440 --> 00:48:30,480 mass culture dating world, but like totally upside down and toppled over. 561 00:48:30,519 --> 00:48:36,840 It's like the shadow realm of the dating landscape in the main stream as it 562 00:48:36,880 --> 00:48:40,960 exists right now. Because when you're thinking about dating apps, it's like all 563 00:48:42,039 --> 00:48:45,840 the women are getting tons and tons of messages and they're getting tons of matches, 564 00:48:46,480 --> 00:48:51,440 and they're kind of on there just for the validation and attention that they 565 00:48:51,480 --> 00:48:58,079 get from that. There are way more guys on the dating apps than than 566 00:48:58,199 --> 00:49:02,000 girls. But then if you look at Catholic dating world, there are all 567 00:49:02,119 --> 00:49:07,960 of these single Catholic girls with traditional values, who want marriage, they want 568 00:49:07,960 --> 00:49:13,000 to have kids, they want to be stayed at home moms, a lot 569 00:49:13,039 --> 00:49:20,320 of them, and U's they don't have the numerical advantage. They don't. 570 00:49:22,039 --> 00:49:29,320 There's there's a notable lack of guys who share their values, and that's worrying 571 00:49:29,440 --> 00:49:32,760 too, because then what are they going to do. Are they going to 572 00:49:32,760 --> 00:49:37,360 settle for someone who doesn't share their values. That's a worrying prospect. But 573 00:49:37,400 --> 00:49:44,639 I think that the gen Z guys and girls who do have those traditional values, 574 00:49:45,119 --> 00:49:47,840 they're really convicted in it. And it's not because they're going with the 575 00:49:49,440 --> 00:49:53,159 flow. They're going against the grain of the mass culture and it's not the 576 00:49:53,199 --> 00:49:57,760 easy thing to do. So it means they really care about their values. 577 00:49:57,800 --> 00:50:01,679 And I think that's a good thing, absolutely, And that's a great way 578 00:50:01,719 --> 00:50:06,960 to put it, because at the end of the day, you also have 579 00:50:07,000 --> 00:50:12,280 this total mismatch in men who are so women who are going to be out 580 00:50:12,280 --> 00:50:16,400 earning men and in a different sort of socioeconomic bracket than men, and then 581 00:50:16,480 --> 00:50:21,360 all of these sort of political complications get even more difficult. But they have 582 00:50:21,480 --> 00:50:27,320 problems to solve. It almost forces solutions because well, yeah, people, 583 00:50:27,599 --> 00:50:30,880 people want to date and get married, So I guess you know, everyone's 584 00:50:30,880 --> 00:50:34,920 going to have to learn to live with it. Yeah, people aren't going 585 00:50:34,960 --> 00:50:42,480 to stop searching for love. That's that's the truth of the matter. And 586 00:50:43,199 --> 00:50:49,639 there are so many voices just vying for the attention of young people right now 587 00:50:49,760 --> 00:50:55,000 that ring hollow and it's just so transparent. Like, I think one of 588 00:50:55,039 --> 00:51:06,960 the advantages GENC has is that we're really good at detecting inauthenticity. A lot 589 00:51:07,000 --> 00:51:12,199 of that is because we kind of grew up on the Internet, and when 590 00:51:12,199 --> 00:51:21,079 there's a voice that's really offering something real and something meaningful that resonates, we 591 00:51:21,199 --> 00:51:27,119 have a really good bas detector. I think that's so counterintuitive, probably to 592 00:51:27,119 --> 00:51:30,119 a lot of older people who looked at the Internet and we're like, how 593 00:51:30,159 --> 00:51:32,039 is anyone ever going to know what's true and what's not? Well again, 594 00:51:32,519 --> 00:51:37,639 versus the issue, you're forced to figure out what's true and what's not Yeah, 595 00:51:37,000 --> 00:51:42,440 exactly to sift at all, unfortunately, But I guess there's some good 596 00:51:42,480 --> 00:51:45,400 that comes from that. Mary Morgan, it was a pleasure to have you 597 00:51:45,440 --> 00:51:49,159 on the show today. Thank you so much for talking to us about all 598 00:51:49,199 --> 00:51:52,280 of this. Thank you so much for having me. I had fun on 599 00:51:52,360 --> 00:51:55,239 here. Yeah, I'll see this again, Yeah, anytime. Mary Morgan 600 00:51:55,480 --> 00:52:00,239 co hosts pop Culture Crisis over at tim cast Media. That is a daily 601 00:52:00,360 --> 00:52:05,480 live show on YouTube, so make sure to check it out. You can 602 00:52:05,519 --> 00:52:08,119 find her on Instagram and Twitter at Mary archived. I guess I should say 603 00:52:08,320 --> 00:52:15,920 X find her on Instagram at x at Mary archive. I've actually that's really 604 00:52:15,960 --> 00:52:19,440 good. EL should go for that. Yeah, that works really well. 605 00:52:20,000 --> 00:52:22,599 I have a just said ski culture editor here at the Federals. We will 606 00:52:22,599 --> 00:52:25,880 be back soon with more. Until then, be lovers of freedom and anxious 607 00:52:25,880 --> 00:52:27,400 for the frame.