WEBVTT 1 00:00:01.080 --> 00:00:04.799 How'd you like to listen to dot net rocks with no ads? Easy? 2 00:00:05.360 --> 00:00:09.480 Become a patron for just five dollars a month. You get access to a 3 00:00:09.480 --> 00:00:14.279 private RSS feed where all the shows have no ads. Twenty dollars a month. 4 00:00:14.279 --> 00:00:18.440 We'll get you that and a special dot net Rocks patron mug. Sign 5 00:00:18.519 --> 00:00:35.960 up now at Patreon dot dot NetRocks dot com. Hey guess what, it's 6 00:00:36.000 --> 00:00:40.560 dot net rocks. I'm Carl Franklin and I'm Richard Campbell here for your dot 7 00:00:40.679 --> 00:00:45.000 net edification, as we are every week since two thousand and one, well 8 00:00:45.119 --> 00:00:47.880 almost every week two thousand and two, I think it was two thousand Did 9 00:00:47.920 --> 00:00:50.600 I say two thousand and one? Yeah, yes, I'm at two thousand 10 00:00:50.640 --> 00:00:53.439 and two. How silly of me, and I wasn't even there and I 11 00:00:53.520 --> 00:01:00.600 know, right what's wrong here? Okay, So thanks again, and we 12 00:01:00.679 --> 00:01:03.640 have some good stuff coming up today. Nick Randolph is here and we're talking 13 00:01:03.680 --> 00:01:07.920 about who Know and other things. And Richard, how are you, my 14 00:01:08.040 --> 00:01:11.920 friend? I'm good. I really want you to get into your better know 15 00:01:11.120 --> 00:01:17.439 because I have comments on it, so very cool. As I've been working 16 00:01:17.480 --> 00:01:21.840 on some home assistant stuff which should not surprise you, knowing me okay, 17 00:01:22.640 --> 00:01:26.680 and it relates all right, so let's roll crazy music for better no framework 18 00:01:26.760 --> 00:01:36.760 awesome? All right, man, what do you got? I think I 19 00:01:36.799 --> 00:01:41.799 know so not that you don't know. Yeah. So this is from Danny 20 00:01:41.879 --> 00:01:47.920 Avila and it's a GitHub repo called libra chat l I, b R E 21 00:01:48.400 --> 00:01:57.040 chat And the explanation is enhanced chat GPT clone features, open Ai, GPT 22 00:01:57.280 --> 00:02:04.120 for vision bing and THROP, open router, Google, Gemini AI model switching, 23 00:02:04.879 --> 00:02:10.159 message search, lang chain, dal E three chat GPT plugins, Open 24 00:02:10.199 --> 00:02:15.800 AI functions, secure multi user system presets. It's completely open source for self 25 00:02:15.800 --> 00:02:20.840 hosting, more features and development, film and eleven. So this is the 26 00:02:22.159 --> 00:02:27.319 sort of hip thing these days, is to host your own GPT engine in 27 00:02:27.400 --> 00:02:30.240 one form another. Although it sounds like it does, does it actually call 28 00:02:30.280 --> 00:02:34.159 out all these different services? It looks like it calls out. Yeah, 29 00:02:34.199 --> 00:02:37.560 it's sort of like the one place that you can put your prompts through and 30 00:02:37.599 --> 00:02:40.280 then it calls out to all these different services with API keys. That's I 31 00:02:40.319 --> 00:02:43.439 don't know. I haven't run it, but that's what it looks like to 32 00:02:43.479 --> 00:02:45.360 me. Yeah, it does look like that's what it's doing is doing. 33 00:02:45.520 --> 00:02:52.000 You can go to the per call apikes, which I've also done. Yeah, 34 00:02:52.039 --> 00:02:54.039 in home and new house, I a sture. We've had this house 35 00:02:54.039 --> 00:02:57.520 for years, and I put in some simple things for when it was a 36 00:02:57.560 --> 00:03:00.680 rental house, so how to manage it. But now that it's ma place, 37 00:03:00.879 --> 00:03:05.400 you know, things are getting a little more sophisticated. And one of 38 00:03:05.439 --> 00:03:10.080 the features that was popular for us is voice control. And the voice control 39 00:03:10.080 --> 00:03:14.599 systems were typically done through Google or Amazon, both of which are not that 40 00:03:14.719 --> 00:03:17.879 good and seem to be going away like they're both kind of failures. Do 41 00:03:17.919 --> 00:03:21.919 you remember when they were awesome? Yeah, you know, and we kind 42 00:03:21.960 --> 00:03:24.960 of laughed at them. Oh isn't that funny? You know she thought, 43 00:03:25.000 --> 00:03:29.319 I said, you know, mud raker when I sent something, I was 44 00:03:29.400 --> 00:03:30.960 yeah, yeah, yeah, totally right like that. That and then and 45 00:03:31.039 --> 00:03:36.280 so ha. Last year in twenty twenty three, had this big open source 46 00:03:36.319 --> 00:03:40.240 initiative to do their own voice systems that would be independent of those vendors of 47 00:03:40.280 --> 00:03:44.879 the of the big providers, which is a big movement in a change general 48 00:03:44.960 --> 00:03:47.800 is to have everything hosted internally, and so folks have already done extensions to 49 00:03:47.879 --> 00:03:53.479 it to access things like open ai'. So yeah, because the local recognizers 50 00:03:53.439 --> 00:03:57.360 are only so good, and I could make them better with more compute, 51 00:03:57.479 --> 00:03:59.800 Like that's one of the things that's like switch up to higher and hardware. 52 00:04:00.199 --> 00:04:01.759 But just to see if it would really make a difference, I set up 53 00:04:01.759 --> 00:04:08.719 my open ai a PI account and hooked it in. And the the problem 54 00:04:08.759 --> 00:04:12.439 is you're used to saying very simple phrases to h A to do stuff right 55 00:04:12.560 --> 00:04:14.560 now. The fact that you can say I watched you this, this, 56 00:04:14.560 --> 00:04:16.480 this, this, and this right and it goes all right, I did 57 00:04:16.480 --> 00:04:20.360 this, this, this, this is this dude, It's like it's kind 58 00:04:20.399 --> 00:04:24.800 of scary. Yeah, so and once the boss is using it, you 59 00:04:24.839 --> 00:04:28.560 know it's going to stay right. So yeah, of course, of course 60 00:04:28.959 --> 00:04:31.959 I was just looking at the math and for using I'm using GPT three plus 61 00:04:32.000 --> 00:04:36.079 through open a AI a P I cost me about a dollar a month. 62 00:04:36.360 --> 00:04:39.959 It's not bad, pretty easy. I mean, because you're not using it 63 00:04:40.000 --> 00:04:42.160 all the time, you're just no, you're using it only when you need 64 00:04:42.199 --> 00:04:46.360 to interact, and it just doesn't cost that much, you know, realistically. 65 00:04:46.439 --> 00:04:49.160 Yeah, I got used to chat GPT on my phone. I could 66 00:04:49.199 --> 00:04:53.399 just pull up with a voice interface. I gotta ask it anything, and 67 00:04:53.439 --> 00:04:59.319 it, you know, has this great understanding if you will, and it 68 00:04:59.319 --> 00:05:02.079 does great re sponsors. But then I get used to that, and I 69 00:05:02.160 --> 00:05:06.759 say to the one who starts with a something that's a little more complex, 70 00:05:08.000 --> 00:05:12.879 and it just goes I'm sorry, yeah, oh yes, right, I'm 71 00:05:12.959 --> 00:05:18.199 talking to farr chat device. So so these things are going away, you 72 00:05:18.279 --> 00:05:20.680 say, I mean, I kind of knew they would, but I thought 73 00:05:20.680 --> 00:05:25.480 I would have thought Amazon would have, you know, said now with GPT 74 00:05:25.800 --> 00:05:28.600 or now with open Ai. Yeah, you wonder if they will. Of 75 00:05:28.680 --> 00:05:30.160 course, then they have to go to a vendor that you know, supports 76 00:05:30.160 --> 00:05:32.839 someone else. Like now you get to the reality. Let's face it, 77 00:05:32.879 --> 00:05:36.319 that product that Amazon made and we're not saying it's name, so we don't 78 00:05:36.319 --> 00:05:40.439 make people unhappy. Right. We got in trouble for that once, We've 79 00:05:40.439 --> 00:05:44.480 gotten in trouble for that before. Was originally built to sell more stuff on 80 00:05:44.519 --> 00:05:46.959 Amazon, right right, I mean they said as much. They basically gave 81 00:05:46.959 --> 00:05:49.879 away the hardware for costs because they presume that you would say, hey, 82 00:05:50.160 --> 00:05:54.000 you know, get me more laundry soap, that kind of thing, which 83 00:05:54.120 --> 00:05:57.319 largely people didn't do. Didn't do it, and back you know, a 84 00:05:57.360 --> 00:06:00.120 couple of three years ago, Amazon basically mane of this is like, we 85 00:06:00.160 --> 00:06:02.839 spent billions on this thing, it's not paying for itself. We're going to 86 00:06:02.879 --> 00:06:08.519 be cutting back. And the Google devices are even weirder because Google didn't even 87 00:06:08.600 --> 00:06:12.360 have that mechanism other than it was just more search information. It was just 88 00:06:12.399 --> 00:06:15.560 more corporate spying. Effectively, there was no real incentive for them, and 89 00:06:15.600 --> 00:06:17.759 they said the same thing. It's like, this is not working out for 90 00:06:17.839 --> 00:06:20.560 us. We're going to cut it back. Just before you know, within 91 00:06:20.600 --> 00:06:26.000 a year or two, then we have this breakthrough with open AI and language 92 00:06:26.160 --> 00:06:30.319 fundamentally transforms language interfaces anyway. Now it's a scramble to se who's going to 93 00:06:30.319 --> 00:06:34.040 implement what. Meantime, you know, Microsoft's kind of laughing here. All 94 00:06:34.079 --> 00:06:38.240 that open a stuff runs on Azure, so it's like, oh, if 95 00:06:38.240 --> 00:06:43.600 you're going to use it, come on down and need some EMPA. So, 96 00:06:43.720 --> 00:06:45.560 I mean, it's a crazy time for all of us, There's no 97 00:06:45.600 --> 00:06:47.959 two ways about it. But I am finding you know, I find I 98 00:06:48.120 --> 00:06:53.680 use get hub copilot a lot and having it added into Aha, Now I'm 99 00:06:53.720 --> 00:06:56.720 going to look at can I make it totally inside the house right like it's 100 00:06:56.759 --> 00:07:00.399 all especially here or we're battling outages all the time, it's like, will 101 00:07:00.439 --> 00:07:02.879 let's function without the Internet? Like can your smart home function without the Internet? 102 00:07:02.879 --> 00:07:05.360 And that's the goal always is to get to that point. Well, 103 00:07:05.399 --> 00:07:11.920 at least a smart device, right, a smart a Amazon thing like that 104 00:07:12.000 --> 00:07:15.519 you can actually use, would be really good. Anyway, check out librachat. 105 00:07:15.639 --> 00:07:18.319 There's the link there. But if Ferry company to just speak at, 106 00:07:18.399 --> 00:07:24.319 it's getub dot com slash Danny Dash a vila a v I la slash librachat. 107 00:07:24.319 --> 00:07:27.079 Who's talking to us? Richard Grady comments off the show sixteen eighty nine, 108 00:07:27.120 --> 00:07:30.279 which is the last time I think we talked about who knows with Kenzie 109 00:07:30.319 --> 00:07:35.319 Whalen, Like there's a while ago who used to be with Uno and we 110 00:07:35.319 --> 00:07:39.560 were talking about building apps. So that's back in May of twenty twenty, 111 00:07:39.600 --> 00:07:44.759 hence the you know show number and this particular comment from that time. This 112 00:07:44.800 --> 00:07:46.759 is from Devin Global, who's a longtime listener as well. Hey Devin, 113 00:07:47.160 --> 00:07:51.759 Hey, and Devinnead is very concrete comment. He says, the promise of 114 00:07:51.759 --> 00:07:56.000 cross platform tools is great, build once, run everywhere. Boy, we've 115 00:07:56.000 --> 00:07:58.680 been telling ourselves that live for a while. Yeah, that's right, ohly 116 00:07:58.800 --> 00:08:03.279 Man, Like you know zamor Informs and now dot net Maui. You get 117 00:08:03.279 --> 00:08:07.240 the timing rights back in twenty twenty, allowing smaller teams a much broader reach. 118 00:08:07.399 --> 00:08:11.360 There's one kind of expertise that seems to get glossed over, and that's 119 00:08:11.480 --> 00:08:15.800 all of the nuances in the native design language. Sure I can use these 120 00:08:15.879 --> 00:08:18.480 tools to make control look native across several platforms. However, it still seems 121 00:08:18.480 --> 00:08:22.759 like you need an expert in iOS, Android and Windows UX to show where 122 00:08:22.839 --> 00:08:28.000 and how to use those controls in a way the user expects. There's an 123 00:08:28.000 --> 00:08:31.320 incredible opportunity for these cross platform tools to help developers quote fall into the pit 124 00:08:31.360 --> 00:08:37.240 of success by using the right thing on each platform. Also, it'd be 125 00:08:37.320 --> 00:08:41.399 nice to see cross platform documentation. It helps developers understand things from the perspective 126 00:08:41.399 --> 00:08:45.360 of a cross platform developer instead of as a single platform developer, as each 127 00:08:45.639 --> 00:08:50.759 vendor seems to assume. A good start is the documentation from the Zamoran team. 128 00:08:50.879 --> 00:08:54.519 In many cases, their docks of iosapis is better than the ones that 129 00:08:54.559 --> 00:08:58.120 are provided by Apple because they had to reverse engineer a lot of that documentations 130 00:08:58.720 --> 00:09:03.039 back the day too. There are credible things on the horizon and I beg 131 00:09:03.120 --> 00:09:11.200 the tool vendors not to let JavaScript win this one. Please please, because 132 00:09:11.480 --> 00:09:16.320 when you talk about the original cross platform language, man like that JavaScript has 133 00:09:16.440 --> 00:09:20.440 been there a long long time. Yeah, or so for better or worse. 134 00:09:20.240 --> 00:09:24.120 I know Nick's got some great comments on this, so we're gonna we'll 135 00:09:24.159 --> 00:09:26.320 do his intro with Devin. Hang in there. We're gonna have some comments 136 00:09:26.399 --> 00:09:30.399 for you on this and a copy music Coby is on its way to you, 137 00:09:30.440 --> 00:09:31.399 and if you'd like a copy used to Cobey, I write a comment 138 00:09:31.440 --> 00:09:35.639 on the website at dot now rocks dot com or on the facebooks you publish 139 00:09:35.639 --> 00:09:37.480 every show there, and if you comment there and a real the show, 140 00:09:37.519 --> 00:09:39.320 we'll leend you copy music to Goby. And you can follow us on Twitter 141 00:09:39.399 --> 00:09:43.440 or ex or whatever the hell they're calling it today, but you can also 142 00:09:43.480 --> 00:09:46.360 follow us on mastadon I'm at Carl Franklin at tech hub dot social, and 143 00:09:46.399 --> 00:09:50.080 I'm Rich Campbell at masadon social sent us dute, Okay, let's bring on 144 00:09:50.159 --> 00:09:54.919 Nick Randolph. Nick currently runs built to Rome, which focuses on building rich 145 00:09:54.960 --> 00:10:01.159 mobile applications. Nick's been identified as a Microsoft MVP and recognition of his work 146 00:10:01.159 --> 00:10:05.600 and expertise with the Microsoft Application platforms. He's still an active contributor in the 147 00:10:05.600 --> 00:10:11.960 device application development space via his blog at Nisnettravels dot built to Rome dot Com. 148 00:10:11.320 --> 00:10:15.360 Put a link to that on the show page too. Nick has been 149 00:10:15.360 --> 00:10:18.559 invited to present at a variety of events, including Techhead and I Night Australia 150 00:10:18.600 --> 00:10:24.519 and New Zealand, DDD, NDC, and local user groups. He's also 151 00:10:24.600 --> 00:10:28.320 authored multiple books on Visual Studio Windows development and helped judge multiple world finals for 152 00:10:28.360 --> 00:10:33.600 the Imagined Cup. Nick has worked on numerous mobile applications and has helped hundreds 153 00:10:33.600 --> 00:10:37.799 of developers build their own mobile applications. Nick has been involved with apps for 154 00:10:37.840 --> 00:10:43.799 well known brands such as Domain dot com, dot Au, ninesman AFL, 155 00:10:43.000 --> 00:10:48.799 NRL, Quantis, JB, hi Fi, nab Stand, and boost Juice, 156 00:10:48.320 --> 00:10:52.720 and is also working on the UNO platform. What is your uh, 157 00:10:54.159 --> 00:10:56.919 what's your role on UNO because it's not in your bio. Yeah, my 158 00:10:56.960 --> 00:11:01.159 bio is basically the one that I used to build your OW and so I 159 00:11:01.200 --> 00:11:05.159 mean I am working full time for the Owner platform and so as part of 160 00:11:05.159 --> 00:11:11.120 that, I wanted the sort of the senior team there, and there's a 161 00:11:11.200 --> 00:11:16.200 huge amount of stuff that we're working on to basically accelerate developing on a cross 162 00:11:16.240 --> 00:11:20.799 platform, and so I'm across quite a lot of the day to day stuff 163 00:11:20.799 --> 00:11:22.679 there, which is really awesome to see, very cool. So for those 164 00:11:22.720 --> 00:11:28.039 who don't know about UNO, or don't remember it or whatever, I can 165 00:11:28.200 --> 00:11:35.039 maybe give you the elevator pitch it. It's sort of it's for it's sort 166 00:11:35.039 --> 00:11:43.039 of zamorin right and MAUI, but instead of using the zamorin flavor of Zamal, 167 00:11:43.679 --> 00:11:50.279 you're actually building your apps to win those Universal platform Is that right? 168 00:11:50.480 --> 00:11:54.200 Well, it used to be. Yeah, so what used to be the 169 00:11:54.279 --> 00:11:58.519 Universal or UWP which is now sort of evolved, or you know Microsoft's V 170 00:11:58.679 --> 00:12:01.679 two version of it, which is when u I three and the winn app 171 00:12:01.799 --> 00:12:07.159 SDK. So yeah, So UNO is quite a lot of things, and 172 00:12:07.320 --> 00:12:11.360 the name kind of alludes to that. So the un platform, but definitely 173 00:12:11.399 --> 00:12:16.159 you're right, at the heart of it is a cross platform and framework UNO 174 00:12:16.159 --> 00:12:22.279 Core that is essentially taking the API set that comes with when you I or 175 00:12:22.279 --> 00:12:28.720 win app STK and making it available across all of the other platforms. And 176 00:12:28.759 --> 00:12:31.840 so the goal there is that you know, wherever dot net will run the 177 00:12:31.919 --> 00:12:35.519 un platform will run. What's different about this in MAUI is that Maui seems 178 00:12:35.519 --> 00:12:41.799 to be backing away from when UI or just like not maybe backing away from 179 00:12:41.840 --> 00:12:46.399 it, but the focus isn't on the Windows desktop experience with MAUI, even 180 00:12:46.399 --> 00:12:50.240 though it does work, whereas you know that that's what you sort of start 181 00:12:50.279 --> 00:12:54.039 with on the UNER platform, is that right? Yeah? And so again 182 00:12:54.080 --> 00:12:58.080 this comes down to the heritage of all of these cross platform tools, is 183 00:12:58.080 --> 00:13:01.399 they all come with their own sort of therefore own point of origin. So 184 00:13:01.720 --> 00:13:05.360 in the case of dot m MAUI, obviously that came from Zarat forms which 185 00:13:05.399 --> 00:13:09.879 came from Zarath, and so their heritage is in the Zaron platforms, and 186 00:13:09.919 --> 00:13:16.159 so they've evolved as such an abstraction over those and then they integrated Windows or 187 00:13:16.240 --> 00:13:20.279 UWP and with now it's now based on when you I three. But they've 188 00:13:20.279 --> 00:13:24.440 got their own abstraction there and their own direction that they're then taking that to 189 00:13:24.559 --> 00:13:31.000 go cross platform. And yet bringing on board Desktop for them has been something 190 00:13:31.000 --> 00:13:35.200 that they brought into the fold, whereas the platform team have almost come from 191 00:13:35.200 --> 00:13:39.120 the other direction. We've come from a Windows centric API set and making that 192 00:13:39.279 --> 00:13:45.679 available cross platform, and so you know, part of the platform approach is 193 00:13:45.720 --> 00:13:48.840 that we have extra things like the toolkit, which allows us to take what 194 00:13:50.039 --> 00:13:54.600 is essentially a Windows framework and make it cross platform in the sense of and 195 00:13:54.960 --> 00:13:58.720 you alluded to this in the introduction of the reader's comments, is that, 196 00:13:58.919 --> 00:14:01.519 you know, if you're building cross platform, when you're building for iOS or 197 00:14:01.559 --> 00:14:05.919 androids, you kind of wanted the app to feel natively at home on there, 198 00:14:05.919 --> 00:14:09.840 so you'd expect things like a navigation bar, or you'd expect, you 199 00:14:09.840 --> 00:14:13.279 know, the swipe interactions and things like that. And that's where the platform 200 00:14:13.360 --> 00:14:18.519 part really comes into it. Isn't there a philosophical point here about do you 201 00:14:18.679 --> 00:14:22.279 maybe your app look neative to the device versus make the app consistent across all 202 00:14:22.320 --> 00:14:26.399 devices. Yeah? Absolutely, like the Facebook apps kind of the same no 203 00:14:26.399 --> 00:14:28.399 matter whether you're using iOS or Android or anything else. Yeah. So, 204 00:14:28.399 --> 00:14:31.919 so if we look back at the sort of the origins of cross platform, 205 00:14:31.960 --> 00:14:37.600 particularly in the dot net space and another technologies were similar to this, is 206 00:14:37.639 --> 00:14:41.039 that when you know, this framework came about, there was definitely a philosophy 207 00:14:41.159 --> 00:14:45.799 of make it look at home on the device. So for Android it would 208 00:14:45.799 --> 00:14:50.080 be material, for Windows it would be fluent for ioscoop Patino, and yet 209 00:14:50.080 --> 00:14:56.240 that that kind of philosophy it runs into problems because designers essentially have to design 210 00:14:56.279 --> 00:15:01.840 things three times and then you're stuck with what looks like every other app on 211 00:15:01.879 --> 00:15:05.279 the platform and not really able to apply your own company's brand very well to 212 00:15:05.360 --> 00:15:09.720 it or in a consistent way. And so what we found is that the 213 00:15:09.799 --> 00:15:13.320 sort of the design philosophy has sort of evolved and shipped, and as you 214 00:15:13.360 --> 00:15:16.639 said, what you kind of see today is that the brand overreach, the 215 00:15:16.759 --> 00:15:22.480 overwrites everything in the sense that you know your brand is more important than necessarily 216 00:15:22.639 --> 00:15:26.360 making you look one hundred percent like alioais app. I haven't used, you 217 00:15:26.519 --> 00:15:31.679 know, but I have used Maui a lot, and I find that if 218 00:15:31.720 --> 00:15:37.639 you go down the Zamal route with Maui, you find you run in pretty 219 00:15:37.720 --> 00:15:43.080 darn quickly to things that aren't consistent across the platforms. And something that works 220 00:15:43.279 --> 00:15:48.360 in you know, in Windows desktop or Mac desktop and might even work an 221 00:15:48.360 --> 00:15:52.519 Android, doesn't work in iOS and oh it's because you have to wait because 222 00:15:52.519 --> 00:15:56.480 they're working on that, right And so I got tired of that. And 223 00:15:56.799 --> 00:16:03.039 because I've been doing Blazer since its inception, I use Blazer as my UI 224 00:16:03.559 --> 00:16:07.360 with Maui. So it's kind of like the hybrid approach. Yeah, because 225 00:16:07.360 --> 00:16:11.720 as Richard said when he was reading the comment, you know, JavaScript is 226 00:16:11.720 --> 00:16:17.559 the original cross platform language, and what is Blazer except the c sharpness of 227 00:16:17.720 --> 00:16:22.679 JavaScript and with all the dom which is the real cross platform thing. Right, 228 00:16:22.120 --> 00:16:27.960 the browser people have figured out how to make their platform cross platform and 229 00:16:29.080 --> 00:16:36.639 consistent. And so I find there's more consistency with Blazer in Maui Native for 230 00:16:36.799 --> 00:16:41.720 mobile apps, right, hybrid apps. Then I don't run into these little 231 00:16:41.759 --> 00:16:45.080 problems that just seem to come out of nowhere, and they can really put 232 00:16:45.080 --> 00:16:48.919 a dent in your schedule, you know for sure. And the browser wars, 233 00:16:49.000 --> 00:16:52.039 you know, it's taken them decades to get to get it to a 234 00:16:52.080 --> 00:16:56.679 point where there are less inconsistencies between browsers, between platforms, et cetera. 235 00:16:56.879 --> 00:17:03.799 Right, Yeah, emphasis on less, yes, exactly, Yeah, many 236 00:17:03.919 --> 00:17:07.599 less though there are. And and you know, from a Blazer perspective, 237 00:17:07.599 --> 00:17:11.480 a lot of that those inconsistencies I had to buy the by the technology, 238 00:17:11.240 --> 00:17:17.680 and so the integration and the hybrid approach there is a valid approach. Now, 239 00:17:17.920 --> 00:17:19.559 do you get the same level of performance, do you get the same 240 00:17:19.640 --> 00:17:25.319 level of device integration. You know, those are all questions that come to 241 00:17:25.359 --> 00:17:27.799 it. Well, I get the same level of device integration, but in 242 00:17:29.000 --> 00:17:33.839 performance, all I care about is if it's gonna be good enough, right, 243 00:17:33.920 --> 00:17:37.799 Yeah, if the user doesn't care, you know, and yeah, 244 00:17:37.839 --> 00:17:41.240 yeah, you're going to be using more memory, so you know, lower 245 00:17:41.279 --> 00:17:45.720 memory, lower power devices may have an issue. But anyway, I didn't 246 00:17:45.720 --> 00:17:49.200 bring that up to diss you know, it's just that I don't know about 247 00:17:49.240 --> 00:17:55.480 it. So is there a sure and is there a hybrid mode for so 248 00:17:55.480 --> 00:17:59.839 so we can support doing web content. So there is an approach to that. 249 00:18:00.079 --> 00:18:03.799 And one of the things that we're definitely considering and you know, working 250 00:18:03.799 --> 00:18:07.920 with our customers on, is prioritization around that hybrid level of support that for 251 00:18:08.000 --> 00:18:12.079 not only Blazer, but other you know, web components, whether it building 252 00:18:12.160 --> 00:18:17.839 Angular or React, and they will make sense to integrate into the app platform. 253 00:18:17.880 --> 00:18:21.440 And from our perspective, we would definitely like to see a more you 254 00:18:21.480 --> 00:18:26.200 know, an approach that goes beyond just including Blazer. But just to just 255 00:18:26.240 --> 00:18:30.720 coming back to the the you know, the the inconsistencies I should say, 256 00:18:30.759 --> 00:18:37.200 between different technology and different platforms. One of the philosophies behind the platform is 257 00:18:37.599 --> 00:18:41.599 PicTel perfect everywhere. And so the idea is that when you build your app 258 00:18:41.599 --> 00:18:44.559 for one platform or you you know, whether you're being you know, working 259 00:18:44.559 --> 00:18:49.519 in the iOS simulator or the Android emulator or on native Windows, once you 260 00:18:49.640 --> 00:18:53.319 build it, you should have the same render experience on all of the platforms. 261 00:18:55.160 --> 00:18:57.799 And so you know that, and that includes the web and Linux and 262 00:18:57.839 --> 00:19:02.839 stuff. You know that they're is a wealth of different platforms that are available 263 00:19:02.880 --> 00:19:04.960 using the UNER platform, and the goal is to make sure that they will 264 00:19:04.960 --> 00:19:11.960 render pixel perfect. And that's not notwithstanding the fact that we are still using 265 00:19:11.000 --> 00:19:15.039 the underlying technology to render. So what I mean by that is, you 266 00:19:15.079 --> 00:19:21.079 know, on on iOS we're using you know, the native widgets on iOS. 267 00:19:21.319 --> 00:19:25.440 On Android, the same on the Web we're using phegmal rendering yep, 268 00:19:25.519 --> 00:19:30.960 exactly, And so you do get the native capabilities around you know, interaction 269 00:19:30.359 --> 00:19:33.960 around accessibility, so you know, doing things like text to voice. Those 270 00:19:34.000 --> 00:19:37.839 are important from the accessibility perspective, and you get all of those because we're 271 00:19:37.920 --> 00:19:42.119 using the device components, even though we've made sure that we're getting a pixel 272 00:19:42.119 --> 00:19:48.319 perfect rendering between the different platforms. Yeah, and the other side of pixel 273 00:19:48.359 --> 00:19:53.640 perfect rendering is perfect behavior application. I mean that's maybe even more important when 274 00:19:53.680 --> 00:20:00.359 I expand you know, a multiple hierarchy tree or less through whatever, is 275 00:20:00.400 --> 00:20:04.599 it going to behave the same way on iOS as it does and Android. 276 00:20:04.920 --> 00:20:11.160 This is just one thing I'm thinking about from you know, lists of lists 277 00:20:11.200 --> 00:20:15.640 within lists and next things have been a real problem in Maui's AMML last year. 278 00:20:15.759 --> 00:20:19.400 Yeah, and you know, performance is one of those things that we 279 00:20:19.519 --> 00:20:23.599 keep on coming back to and try to continue to improve and work on because 280 00:20:23.920 --> 00:20:29.160 you know that because you've got that obstruction layer, you know, what works 281 00:20:29.160 --> 00:20:32.960 on one platform that doesn't necessarily work the same one other platforms. So there 282 00:20:33.400 --> 00:20:37.599 is a you know, a continual effort to make sure that we're performing the 283 00:20:37.640 --> 00:20:41.079 best we can or all platforms. And so yeah, I think, kind 284 00:20:41.079 --> 00:20:45.680 of calling back to Devon's comment on all of this, I think there's a 285 00:20:45.720 --> 00:20:52.160 broader idea of are you building this for internal use versus showing it to the 286 00:20:52.200 --> 00:20:55.640 public. I don't know what your customer base looks like, nick Like, 287 00:20:55.839 --> 00:20:59.519 because I do think there's a very different attitude to hey, we need to 288 00:20:59.519 --> 00:21:03.519 make this work for the company on their mobile devices versus we want the public 289 00:21:03.559 --> 00:21:07.880 to use them. Yeah. Look, absolutely, And what we saw very 290 00:21:07.359 --> 00:21:11.359 very early days of sort of mobile apps is that the companies would invest no 291 00:21:11.519 --> 00:21:17.960 cycles into anything design related and what they found is the attrition or the usage 292 00:21:17.960 --> 00:21:21.440 of those of as apps are very low. So these days, with something 293 00:21:21.480 --> 00:21:23.799 like the Inner Platform, you could still rapidly build out an application. And 294 00:21:23.839 --> 00:21:27.559 we'll talk a little bit more about the various Upper platform components that help with 295 00:21:27.640 --> 00:21:33.400 that process. But you can very rapidly build out an application that looks really 296 00:21:33.400 --> 00:21:37.640 good, it's pixel perfect on every device, and yet is rolled out really 297 00:21:37.720 --> 00:21:41.880 quickly for the enterprise. Now that's not to say that you couldn't build a 298 00:21:41.920 --> 00:21:47.599 facebookly world style application or quality level you know, including animations and things like 299 00:21:47.640 --> 00:21:49.920 that with the Inner Platform. But what we do see is that a lot 300 00:21:49.920 --> 00:21:53.880 of enterprises that are coming to the Inner Platform because of that rapid ability to 301 00:21:53.960 --> 00:21:59.079 rapidly roll out applications. And is it for the internal use apps or are 302 00:21:59.119 --> 00:22:03.599 they thinking about the public facing apps. It can be for both, definitely, 303 00:22:03.599 --> 00:22:06.799 for sure, I'm with you, It's just I would think that requirements 304 00:22:06.799 --> 00:22:10.599 are different. Look they are, and for you know, what we refer 305 00:22:10.680 --> 00:22:15.319 to as typically consumer facing apps, a lot of those will have fairly heavy 306 00:22:15.400 --> 00:22:18.960 graphic kind of requirements on them, so you know, they'll have very intricate 307 00:22:19.000 --> 00:22:23.480 transitions. You know, some of some of the apps like Facebook and Twitter 308 00:22:23.480 --> 00:22:27.279 are actually credibly simple from a transitions perspective. But then you can look at 309 00:22:27.319 --> 00:22:33.920 some of the more creative shopping based applications and they've got some very sophisticated animations 310 00:22:33.000 --> 00:22:37.960 and things like that, And those ones are ones where we will prioritize, 311 00:22:37.039 --> 00:22:41.400 you know, the different animations and different flows as they come in from our 312 00:22:41.440 --> 00:22:47.400 customer requirements. But definitely I'm in the you know, for people who or 313 00:22:47.440 --> 00:22:51.480 for companies that want to build out an application, even if it's consumer facing, 314 00:22:51.720 --> 00:22:53.359 the inner platform is a great choice and a great starting point for them, 315 00:22:53.519 --> 00:22:59.960 right, I mean, and you're mostly describing the esthetic elements that consume 316 00:23:00.240 --> 00:23:02.799 are going to want a really good looking up but it's worth putting time in 317 00:23:02.799 --> 00:23:07.759 it where your employees can live with a mediocre interface as long as it's functional. 318 00:23:08.640 --> 00:23:11.559 Actually, my Firm Media thought was, well, we know that these 319 00:23:11.720 --> 00:23:15.680 cross platform frameworks have an overhead, their apps tend to be larger and so 320 00:23:15.759 --> 00:23:18.920 forth, but I wonder if the consumer cares at all. Yeah, like 321 00:23:19.000 --> 00:23:25.039 who looks at memory usage in an app except a geek. I think only 322 00:23:25.079 --> 00:23:27.599 three or four years ago, you know, it's size of app and download 323 00:23:27.599 --> 00:23:32.839 speeds and stuff like that was super critical. I think with modern devices particularly 324 00:23:32.880 --> 00:23:37.240 and like the you know, the developed world, we don't tend to focus 325 00:23:37.319 --> 00:23:41.920 on those as much. Definitely, if you're targeting you know, areas where 326 00:23:41.960 --> 00:23:45.759 there's low coverage and devices will be typically you know, a generational too older, 327 00:23:45.960 --> 00:23:49.000 then that can still be a priority. And yeah, there's definitely one 328 00:23:49.039 --> 00:23:53.079 area where you know native will win out. So if you build the pure 329 00:23:53.160 --> 00:23:56.839 native tools, you'll always be able to get a smaller run time, of 330 00:23:56.839 --> 00:23:59.799 smaller footprint, et cetera. Yeah, I would argue when you get down 331 00:23:59.799 --> 00:24:03.960 to old bandwidth and so forth, you switch to web like they're not going 332 00:24:03.960 --> 00:24:07.799 to run the client anyway. Possibly, although you know, when you're talking 333 00:24:07.839 --> 00:24:11.839 about low bandwidth, you know, if you're going to rural areas, web's 334 00:24:11.920 --> 00:24:15.079 not an option because you don't have any local caching and you don't have any 335 00:24:15.440 --> 00:24:19.519 you know, off lines, right and well PWA supposedly, but yeah you 336 00:24:19.559 --> 00:24:25.519 can. Yeah, it's just none of it's good. All of it's bad. 337 00:24:25.720 --> 00:24:27.839 I was going to say Peter w A. But the investment that you've 338 00:24:27.880 --> 00:24:30.519 been getting it to work on, Peter wa, you could have built using 339 00:24:30.519 --> 00:24:36.400 the platform and have a full synchronization solution. You just download my code from 340 00:24:36.400 --> 00:24:41.359 blazer train. Fair. But I mean, but to your point that when 341 00:24:41.400 --> 00:24:45.799 it comes to disconnected scenarios, these frameworks help a lot, and you know 342 00:24:47.039 --> 00:24:49.960 specifically, Yeah, and one of the really interesting things about that is that 343 00:24:51.319 --> 00:24:55.680 you know, there are other technologies out there, so Flutter and you know, 344 00:24:55.880 --> 00:24:59.480 cross platform frameworks that are out there. And one of the nice things 345 00:24:59.480 --> 00:25:03.079 that we've benefit it from being in the Microsoft ecosystem is all of the libraries 346 00:25:03.359 --> 00:25:07.400 and technology and all of the open source that goes on in terms of these 347 00:25:07.440 --> 00:25:11.319 things like synchronization frameworks, and you know, people have got there's so much 348 00:25:11.359 --> 00:25:17.799 invested by Microsoft and third parties into making such a broad ecosystem that we will 349 00:25:17.839 --> 00:25:21.279 benefit from. And so you know, if something's that's built for don Ed 350 00:25:21.319 --> 00:25:25.920 eight or seven, you can bring into your UNO platform application just buyer and 351 00:25:26.000 --> 00:25:30.440 you get reference and it's just incredible amount of stuff that just works. So 352 00:25:30.519 --> 00:25:33.559 yeah, it's an old estradation line. It's like it was easier to make 353 00:25:33.599 --> 00:25:37.680 connectivity everywhere than it was to make a good disconnected line that was That was 354 00:25:37.880 --> 00:25:41.960 true twenty years ago and it's true today. Yeah, you know, it's 355 00:25:41.000 --> 00:25:45.319 like, yeah, we just meet their you know, starlink more Internet everywhere. 356 00:25:45.920 --> 00:25:49.000 I caught it with one of the fellow MVPs probably a couple of weeks 357 00:25:49.039 --> 00:25:52.039 ago now, and we were reminiscing about the old Pocket PC e days. 358 00:25:52.119 --> 00:25:56.680 And I swear that we are still building this still tackling the same fundamental problems 359 00:25:56.799 --> 00:26:00.759 in terms of app development today that we work fifteen sixteen years ago. You 360 00:26:00.799 --> 00:26:03.359 know, it's just incredible. I mean, we have a better user experience 361 00:26:03.400 --> 00:26:07.640 and it's easier to use that al to build an incredible you know, user 362 00:26:07.680 --> 00:26:12.079 interface, But fundamentally we're still solving the same problems. Well, and it's 363 00:26:12.079 --> 00:26:15.599 still the same issue, which is the customer couldn't care less about Crafts platform. 364 00:26:15.640 --> 00:26:18.279 It's only us that cares about The customer just wants to work on their 365 00:26:18.319 --> 00:26:25.640 device. Absolutely yes. And this is where the investment into technology such as 366 00:26:25.720 --> 00:26:30.759 web assembly is going to be really interesting because and web assimbly not just in 367 00:26:30.799 --> 00:26:33.720 the browser, but also if you think about the ability to run a web 368 00:26:33.720 --> 00:26:40.160 assembly app in a native in essentially a sandbox on any device. That's kind 369 00:26:40.160 --> 00:26:42.079 of like an interesting story because now all of a sudden, you back to 370 00:26:42.079 --> 00:26:45.640 your point about having it web technology that now runs everywhere. If you can 371 00:26:45.680 --> 00:26:51.440 make it work in web assembly or any language you could, yeah, exactly, 372 00:26:51.480 --> 00:26:53.240 you can now run it on any piece of technology that's able to run 373 00:26:53.480 --> 00:26:57.559 you know, a sandbox web assembly, right, it's the universal well then 374 00:26:57.720 --> 00:27:03.720 the Nescent Universe, our Soul runtime operating system. Yeah, yeah, will 375 00:27:03.160 --> 00:27:07.160 you know where it gets weird? And I've had conversations with Sanderson on this. 376 00:27:07.359 --> 00:27:11.680 You know, over a whiskey or two is at the edge, like 377 00:27:11.799 --> 00:27:15.759 on a CDN, I could be running a w A container. So you 378 00:27:15.759 --> 00:27:18.519 know, headla, it's not the client, it's not the server, it's 379 00:27:18.599 --> 00:27:22.680 in between. Yeah, and you know he's already thought of all these things. 380 00:27:22.839 --> 00:27:25.400 Of course he has, and he thought about it years ago, years 381 00:27:25.440 --> 00:27:27.599 ago, yeah, ten years ago. Like I'm pretty sure he's actually an 382 00:27:27.599 --> 00:27:33.799 alien and he's just come down to help us, you know, but we 383 00:27:33.799 --> 00:27:37.599 should probably take a break. Yeah, let's do that. We'll be right 384 00:27:37.599 --> 00:27:45.240 back after these important messages and we're back. It's dot net rocks on Carl 385 00:27:45.240 --> 00:27:49.039 Franklin. That's Richard Campbell, Hey, and we're talking to Nick Randolph about 386 00:27:49.039 --> 00:27:52.759 the UNO platform, the latest, the greatest, the newest, which I 387 00:27:52.759 --> 00:27:56.880 don't think we've talked about all that much yet. Actually, no, no, 388 00:27:56.680 --> 00:28:00.200 no, we've sort of been in philosophy land and over here. So 389 00:28:00.279 --> 00:28:07.240 let's talk about We talked about the philosophy around the core, but there's the 390 00:28:07.279 --> 00:28:10.759 platform, and you know, one of the motivations behind the name is that, 391 00:28:11.200 --> 00:28:14.279 you know, it's all about building you know, just not just the 392 00:28:14.319 --> 00:28:17.960 core, but all of the bits that are developer needs, from design all 393 00:28:18.000 --> 00:28:21.279 the way through to publishing your app. And so you know, over the 394 00:28:21.319 --> 00:28:25.559 last you know, X number of years we've been building not just the core, 395 00:28:25.640 --> 00:28:29.359 but there's things like the toolkit. We've got a raft of extensions that 396 00:28:29.400 --> 00:28:32.640 are based on you know, what Microsoft's done with the Microsoft Extensions, but 397 00:28:32.839 --> 00:28:37.279 tailor to building an UNO platform. So you know, there's device specific feats 398 00:28:37.279 --> 00:28:41.359 and bits in that that we can leverage our extensions. We've got support for 399 00:28:41.400 --> 00:28:44.400 sea shup markups, so you're not just restricted to zamble anymore. You can 400 00:28:44.440 --> 00:28:48.960 now you know, use a very fluent or structured c sharp markup language to 401 00:28:48.000 --> 00:28:52.680 basically create your apps that's very cool. Yeah, and again that's about breaking 402 00:28:52.680 --> 00:28:56.240 down the lane the learning that developers have to go through to actually building apps. 403 00:28:56.319 --> 00:28:59.720 Right, you still need to understand, you know, things like what's 404 00:28:59.720 --> 00:29:03.119 a tech block and what's a button and stuff like that. Sure you know 405 00:29:03.200 --> 00:29:07.200 you're not learning a you know, a language to which was really designed for 406 00:29:07.519 --> 00:29:10.759 a tool. Right at the end of the day, nobody likes writing zamle 407 00:29:11.200 --> 00:29:15.920 or XML. I mean, those who are always tool orientedy technologies, even 408 00:29:15.920 --> 00:29:18.359 though some of them, like myself, just did get very fluent to be 409 00:29:18.400 --> 00:29:22.480 able to write them. But yeah, I mean, we now have incredible 410 00:29:22.480 --> 00:29:27.519 sea sharp markup, which which mirrors the capability of z owl and yet it 411 00:29:27.519 --> 00:29:33.279 gives us this ability to write the entire app just in C sharp and I 412 00:29:33.279 --> 00:29:34.640 mean, I certainly that's appealing to folks. It's like, this is the 413 00:29:34.720 --> 00:29:38.400 language I know and I'm comfortable in. This is what my team knows, 414 00:29:38.440 --> 00:29:45.200 like as as little JavaScript as possible, please exactly, And we look, 415 00:29:45.200 --> 00:29:48.359 we get that feedback consistently and hence the investment over the last twenty four months 416 00:29:48.799 --> 00:29:53.400 around bringing offerings like c sharp mark up to the table. The other the 417 00:29:53.519 --> 00:29:57.079 really one development that we've been spending a lot of time on is there is 418 00:29:57.119 --> 00:30:03.400 that gap between where designers finish and where developers pick up. And so we've 419 00:30:03.440 --> 00:30:07.480 got a component that actually lives within Figma and allows you to essentially export not 420 00:30:07.599 --> 00:30:11.039 just down but also cea sharp markups. So if you want to live in 421 00:30:11.039 --> 00:30:15.200 the sea sharp world, you can just explore your design into Seashell markup, 422 00:30:15.480 --> 00:30:18.400 drop it into your app, and off you go. And so that's we 423 00:30:18.480 --> 00:30:22.400 see that as quite an important tool in breaking down that barrier between you know, 424 00:30:23.240 --> 00:30:29.000 the cognitive loss that gets that happened between designers and where they were thinking 425 00:30:29.039 --> 00:30:32.559 about how things should look and stuff like that, and the way you developers 426 00:30:32.599 --> 00:30:37.960 tend to put things together, which we've won't be there right well, and 427 00:30:38.599 --> 00:30:41.640 I appreciate you bringing up Figma because a couple of years ago it was a 428 00:30:41.759 --> 00:30:47.640 beloved tools like this is the way, and then Adobe showed up and we 429 00:30:47.759 --> 00:30:49.559 all kind of held our brows. It's like, well, that's where good 430 00:30:49.599 --> 00:30:55.480 software goes to die. And now they're not buying it, Like I feel 431 00:30:55.480 --> 00:30:57.599 like we're going to have a Figma renaissance. Because the deal failed, they 432 00:30:57.599 --> 00:31:02.680 had to pay they had to pay a billion bucks as a saddle because they 433 00:31:02.680 --> 00:31:04.240 couldn't buy it. So, Okay, I don't know what's going to happen 434 00:31:04.279 --> 00:31:07.079 to Figma now, but if I was a designer, there's there's a lot 435 00:31:07.119 --> 00:31:11.240 of stuff. I'm partying like, that's such great news. Yeah, there's 436 00:31:11.240 --> 00:31:14.599 a lots of having in the people world. They've got, you know, 437 00:31:14.720 --> 00:31:19.160 a new dev mode and then again they've they've identified that the one of their 438 00:31:19.200 --> 00:31:23.960 markets is this, you know, ability for designers to create this app experience, 439 00:31:25.079 --> 00:31:27.400 not just single pages and web pages and stuff like that, the whole 440 00:31:27.400 --> 00:31:33.000 app experiences and then be able to pull out the resources and the assets from 441 00:31:33.039 --> 00:31:37.599 that in a way that it's consumable for developers. And you hit only the 442 00:31:37.720 --> 00:31:40.599 key point here, which is how many times is a designer finished with a 443 00:31:40.640 --> 00:31:42.359 design? Hey, the devs and they're looking to go, well, we're 444 00:31:42.400 --> 00:31:48.519 not making that just so detached from the tool set I've got and I think 445 00:31:48.559 --> 00:31:53.039 Thing was aware of the software development of life cycle. Obviously they build their 446 00:31:53.039 --> 00:31:56.640 own tool but they're aware of it at a at a general level because they're 447 00:31:56.680 --> 00:32:00.039 not just investing in the tools within Figma, they're all working on things like 448 00:32:00.079 --> 00:32:06.160 design systems and so essentially what that means is that they're making it so that 449 00:32:06.200 --> 00:32:10.000 you can export parts of Figma as assets, so whether those be you know, 450 00:32:10.039 --> 00:32:15.359 your color assets, your style assets, your font assets in a way 451 00:32:15.440 --> 00:32:17.920 that can be consumed into things like your cee iPods, right right, So 452 00:32:19.319 --> 00:32:22.480 you know that they're aware and they're starting to think along the same lines as 453 00:32:22.480 --> 00:32:27.599 developers have beat for years, and so UN is trying to leverage that and 454 00:32:27.640 --> 00:32:31.119 recognize that we need to be part of that pipeline. There's definitely that moment 455 00:32:31.240 --> 00:32:39.519 between the first designer paths that gets approved and the devs successfully rendering that page. 456 00:32:39.680 --> 00:32:45.359 It's almost an interim step, like until we convert their design language into 457 00:32:45.400 --> 00:32:49.680 our design language, you can't really get rolling. You know that I was 458 00:32:49.720 --> 00:32:53.119 introduced to Figma just as an assign a couple of years ago, and the 459 00:32:53.720 --> 00:32:58.079 customer wanted me to, you know, do the design and Figma and then 460 00:32:58.200 --> 00:33:04.480 copy the you know, the the CSS into my project and that was fine. 461 00:33:04.559 --> 00:33:07.920 And I don't know if it does this now, but back then there 462 00:33:07.039 --> 00:33:12.440 was no responsiveness and that you know, you put a you get some design 463 00:33:12.519 --> 00:33:15.720 and all that stuff and I copy it and you know, it's static, 464 00:33:16.240 --> 00:33:21.240 it doesn't move with the page. Which seemed to me like really stupid. 465 00:33:21.680 --> 00:33:24.160 I don't know if that feature is there now, but you know, it's 466 00:33:24.160 --> 00:33:28.640 the little details like that to drive you nuts. Yeah, so I think 467 00:33:28.720 --> 00:33:31.279 Thigma has definitely come a long way on that, and definitely a lot of 468 00:33:31.279 --> 00:33:37.000 their components and I'm definitely no wizard here, but definitely their components now understand 469 00:33:37.079 --> 00:33:40.720 a little bit of responsive side. It's not to the extent of knowing between 470 00:33:40.839 --> 00:33:45.880 like portrait and landscape, but they know how things like should expand and things 471 00:33:45.920 --> 00:33:47.240 like that. So you know, yeah, that's good. It was a 472 00:33:47.240 --> 00:33:52.920 couple of years ago, and I'm certainly no expert in CSS. Well. 473 00:33:52.000 --> 00:33:55.920 Yeah, and responsive design is hard at the best of times, much less 474 00:33:57.240 --> 00:34:01.640 cross platform responsive design, absolutely, yeah, and you know that that is 475 00:34:01.680 --> 00:34:06.559 one of the common problems that surfaces all the time, and will continue to 476 00:34:06.640 --> 00:34:10.480 invest in better controls and better widgets to help developers deal with that. And 477 00:34:10.679 --> 00:34:15.679 you know, we see various break points, particularly on desktop or web, 478 00:34:15.960 --> 00:34:19.280 where you go from a sort of a more portrain oriented, you know, 479 00:34:19.519 --> 00:34:21.880 layout where you might have a pit in to the left and you want to 480 00:34:21.960 --> 00:34:24.760 kind of looking like a list, and then when you navigate it should show 481 00:34:24.800 --> 00:34:30.440 you the details almost on a new page versus a more landscape or desktop experience 482 00:34:30.440 --> 00:34:35.559 where you typically have them side by side, and you know, they should 483 00:34:35.599 --> 00:34:37.239 all work within an app and it should be consistent, and then things like 484 00:34:37.280 --> 00:34:40.000 deep linking should work so that you could navigate to it on the web. 485 00:34:40.639 --> 00:34:45.559 So you know, it poses very interesting challenges and you know, those are 486 00:34:45.599 --> 00:34:50.679 the types of things where you know, our investment into extensions allows for things 487 00:34:50.719 --> 00:34:54.159 like deep linking and for resolvable addresses and stuff like that comes into the play 488 00:34:54.440 --> 00:34:58.639 in toolkit. We have things like responsive views and stuff like that that will 489 00:34:58.639 --> 00:35:02.079 help one, you know, deal with having different visual states essentially for that 490 00:35:02.159 --> 00:35:06.760 sort of portrayed look and the landscape look. And this gets back to that 491 00:35:06.840 --> 00:35:08.719 mapping stage. Just like now I pick up the Uno toolkit, I've got 492 00:35:08.719 --> 00:35:13.239 the output from Figma, and I'm trying to figure out how to map it 493 00:35:13.320 --> 00:35:15.440 under the toolkit to say, well, this is what they wanted in Figma. 494 00:35:15.480 --> 00:35:20.079 When it scales, how do we make sure that Uno does that for 495 00:35:20.119 --> 00:35:22.320 it? Yeah, and that's where the Figma plugin comes in. Okay, 496 00:35:22.760 --> 00:35:28.679 And so you know that plugin that sits within Figma. One of the really 497 00:35:28.719 --> 00:35:31.320 cool things about it is that there's actually a rendering that actually happens within the 498 00:35:31.360 --> 00:35:36.480 plug in and that's actually running the web or then't version of UNO, so 499 00:35:36.519 --> 00:35:40.079 it actually shows you what it's going to look like with your like basically takes 500 00:35:40.079 --> 00:35:45.559 your design, converts it to Zammle behind the scenes, runs it so that 501 00:35:45.599 --> 00:35:47.119 it actually shows you what it's going to look like and how it's going to 502 00:35:47.199 --> 00:35:51.840 behave when you click in the textbox and stuff like that. So it's pretty 503 00:35:51.840 --> 00:35:53.599 incredible that the plugin is capable of. And then of course you can then 504 00:35:53.920 --> 00:35:59.239 take that and actually drop it into your running app, like you go to 505 00:35:59.280 --> 00:36:01.280 the Zamble file, drop it in whilst your apps running, and really will 506 00:36:01.280 --> 00:36:06.199 actually show it and your running app. Nice. So it's all the wonders 507 00:36:06.519 --> 00:36:09.480 of the Microsoft ecosystem. Hot real load of somebody that came out of Microsoft. 508 00:36:10.079 --> 00:36:14.199 That the UNER platform is basically built part of makes world. Yeah, 509 00:36:14.280 --> 00:36:16.440 and live debugging too, right, like is all part of that effect. 510 00:36:16.960 --> 00:36:22.119 So I could be tweaking this. I mean, I'm hoping the plug is 511 00:36:22.159 --> 00:36:25.239 perfect, but I imagine I have to do some stuff and then look across 512 00:36:25.639 --> 00:36:30.199 the different platform renders too, like fire up the woll the stimulators. Yeah, 513 00:36:30.239 --> 00:36:34.960 correct, and you know there, We don't claim that there's never any 514 00:36:36.199 --> 00:36:38.599 discrepancies between different platforms, So there's always a need to run it up on 515 00:36:38.639 --> 00:36:42.920 each platform, the planet ship being verifying that it's going to that it is 516 00:36:42.960 --> 00:36:46.639 looking and behaving exactly how you want it, because yure scaling may work differently 517 00:36:46.679 --> 00:36:51.320 on different with that one the break points between say portraited and landscape may not 518 00:36:51.400 --> 00:36:54.440 be the same, or you may want to tweak it based on feedback from 519 00:36:54.440 --> 00:37:01.440 different platforms. So definitely consistencies there. One of the interesting things that we 520 00:37:01.480 --> 00:37:07.039 added to the Wizard and so I'll talk about that in a second, but 521 00:37:07.199 --> 00:37:12.119 we added the ability for it to generate your CI pipeline. And so one 522 00:37:12.119 --> 00:37:15.280 of the things we consistency see from developers them struggling at the other end of 523 00:37:15.360 --> 00:37:19.800 the build process is that, Hey, I've got my app that I've spent 524 00:37:19.880 --> 00:37:22.760 time building. How do I ship it? How do I make sure that 525 00:37:23.000 --> 00:37:25.119 you know when I'm making changes to it, I don't break it? How 526 00:37:25.159 --> 00:37:30.599 do I run tests and unit uy tests and things like that. So out 527 00:37:30.639 --> 00:37:32.159 of the Blox, we give you the ability to have a you know, 528 00:37:32.280 --> 00:37:36.800 a CI pipeline that's set up to at least build your application, so you're 529 00:37:36.840 --> 00:37:40.920 already in a winning state there the wizard itself. One of the things we 530 00:37:42.000 --> 00:37:45.039 had trouble with with the whole platform is that we have all of these different 531 00:37:45.039 --> 00:37:49.280 bits and pieces. Unless you've spent time reading through the documentation, you wouldn't 532 00:37:49.280 --> 00:37:52.239 know existed. You know, there was a very good template that I'll add 533 00:37:52.280 --> 00:37:54.519 you to get started with an Uto app, but it kind of left everything 534 00:37:54.519 --> 00:37:58.719 else to you. And so one of the things we invested in, you 535 00:37:58.760 --> 00:38:01.400 know, in the last twelve months that is a wizard that brings in a 536 00:38:01.440 --> 00:38:06.360 good proportion of the capability of the whole platform. And so you know, 537 00:38:06.400 --> 00:38:09.119 there's ten or eleven screens that you can go through and customize everything from. 538 00:38:09.320 --> 00:38:14.079 You know what target platforms you want to use all the way through to do 539 00:38:14.159 --> 00:38:16.480 I want authentication and if so, do I want to write it myself with 540 00:38:16.559 --> 00:38:22.000 custom worth or do I want to use m cell and so, And the 541 00:38:22.039 --> 00:38:23.760 CI pipelines are there as well, so you can pick between it asure and 542 00:38:23.800 --> 00:38:29.400 get other actions as your pipeline of choice. I'm sure there's others that people 543 00:38:29.400 --> 00:38:32.079 want those then will consider adding those as well. But the idea is that 544 00:38:32.159 --> 00:38:37.360 when you file a new project, you get a good percentage of the way 545 00:38:37.440 --> 00:38:40.679 you want with all of the you know, most of the almost best practice 546 00:38:40.760 --> 00:38:45.639 or guidance that we can do to get you into that winning state. So 547 00:38:45.719 --> 00:38:49.320 all you do is push it up to your repository and at least you'll have 548 00:38:49.559 --> 00:38:53.800 a positive experience with a build that you know works. Because people's integration pipelines 549 00:38:53.800 --> 00:38:58.159 are pretty personal too, right, so I guess it's very challenge to have 550 00:38:58.280 --> 00:39:00.760 if you're going to generate part of that pipeline, is it match with the 551 00:39:00.800 --> 00:39:04.639 way we're doing things? Yeah? Sure, And look right now, what 552 00:39:05.000 --> 00:39:07.079 the Wizard generates is very much a starting point, so we make sure that 553 00:39:07.119 --> 00:39:12.840 you're set up to do a build of the whole solution. We are working 554 00:39:12.840 --> 00:39:15.519 on extensions there that will help you run the at least the tests and the 555 00:39:15.639 --> 00:39:21.119 UI tests because those are actually quite difficult to particularly the UI test to get 556 00:39:21.199 --> 00:39:28.280 running in a CI pipeline. And then the additional parts that well, you 557 00:39:28.280 --> 00:39:30.679 know, considering down the line, is that the support for things like app 558 00:39:30.719 --> 00:39:35.679 Center and actually pushing to the store, because those are again where where a 559 00:39:35.760 --> 00:39:38.000 lot of developers really struggle. Sure, yeah, so just giving them a 560 00:39:38.039 --> 00:39:40.920 template to go get get downe the right path is great. I mean I 561 00:39:42.280 --> 00:39:46.639 appreciate that you're doing this devop stuff for your platform so that we have a 562 00:39:46.679 --> 00:39:50.480 good experience with your platform. But if you can make us better elsewhere, 563 00:39:50.599 --> 00:39:57.320 Nick, I'm all over that because Australia. The nice thing and you should 564 00:39:57.360 --> 00:40:01.519 work mostly is that because we're all the dot ecosystem, A lot of that 565 00:40:01.559 --> 00:40:07.000 stuff so dot net built. You know, you can point that at an 566 00:40:07.360 --> 00:40:10.880 app, but you could also point it at an other technology after it should 567 00:40:10.920 --> 00:40:15.199 build, and so a lot of those stages like pointing to the store or 568 00:40:15.239 --> 00:40:19.599 pointing to app Center and things like that, those are work for other dot 569 00:40:19.679 --> 00:40:22.639 net based applications as well. It's excellent. We haven't talked much about app 570 00:40:22.679 --> 00:40:24.920 Center because it's just one of those things you should use. I mean, 571 00:40:24.960 --> 00:40:29.239 this is like the remnants of the old Hockey app plus a bunch of other 572 00:40:29.360 --> 00:40:34.199 Azure stuff. Yeah, and it's one of those things that Microsoft acquiet and 573 00:40:34.320 --> 00:40:39.440 brought together and actually started elevating. And I've always viewed it as I had 574 00:40:39.480 --> 00:40:45.920 some really winning features. So the simplification of the bill process and encouraging developers 575 00:40:45.960 --> 00:40:50.760 to actually have that kind of approach to the build and test the ability to 576 00:40:50.840 --> 00:40:53.760 run UI tests and device tests and stuff like that was really cool, and 577 00:40:54.280 --> 00:40:59.559 the deployment side of things for testing was one of the killer features of app 578 00:40:59.599 --> 00:41:05.599 Center. And so yeah, definitely, we're highly encouraged developers to push the 579 00:41:05.639 --> 00:41:08.719 app Center to provide that distribution. But it's not to say that you can't 580 00:41:09.159 --> 00:41:12.800 do it without app Center. So you can push to you know, the 581 00:41:13.119 --> 00:41:17.800 you know, the Android Beta store and the iOS using the essentially test flight 582 00:41:19.320 --> 00:41:25.119 to actually push out the d Bible pre built versions. But app Center definitely 583 00:41:25.199 --> 00:41:29.360 made those problems easier to deal with. Well, I mean you mean testl 584 00:41:29.400 --> 00:41:32.719 like for ioas are you meaning testlate for iOS? Test flight? Yeah? 585 00:41:32.960 --> 00:41:37.079 Yeah, what's the Android equivalent? I can't remember. Well, they have 586 00:41:37.159 --> 00:41:40.239 a beta version of their store, so you basically submit to the store and 587 00:41:40.320 --> 00:41:44.159 then you market it as beta and it allows you to do that kind of 588 00:41:44.239 --> 00:41:47.559 same process. Oh your Android does Yeah, Okay, so you're talking about 589 00:41:47.719 --> 00:41:52.440 test flight, which is Apple's way to do beta deploys. Yeah, and 590 00:41:52.639 --> 00:41:55.719 so you know, each of the stores, so Apple will have a way 591 00:41:55.760 --> 00:42:02.119 of doing essentially beta deploys. The Android store has away, and the Microsoft 592 00:42:02.159 --> 00:42:07.119 Store actually has a mechanism for doing that as well, so flighting essentially pre 593 00:42:07.360 --> 00:42:09.800 released versions of their apps, So all all of the platforms have that, 594 00:42:09.880 --> 00:42:13.800 and obviously in the web you can point to a staging environment and you know 595 00:42:13.880 --> 00:42:20.119 lock it down, et cetera. So it's definitely a good mechanism to follow 596 00:42:20.159 --> 00:42:22.960 through with you apps as they go into that sort of pre release of testing 597 00:42:23.039 --> 00:42:29.239 phase is to make them available for a select group of audience. And you 598 00:42:29.320 --> 00:42:31.760 know, internally in we actually make use of those processes to make sure that 599 00:42:31.880 --> 00:42:38.519 we have you know, canary builds available for our internal testing. And just 600 00:42:38.719 --> 00:42:43.280 touching on that, one of the things that we do try to encourage for 601 00:42:43.480 --> 00:42:46.000 all of our customers is so logo this thing that we talk about it is 602 00:42:46.039 --> 00:42:51.239 being canary builds, and what we mean by that is basically taking your existing 603 00:42:51.320 --> 00:42:55.280 app that you're currently working on and testing forcibly, updating it to all of 604 00:42:55.400 --> 00:43:00.239 the latest versions of the of all your packages, because this are something that 605 00:43:00.320 --> 00:43:06.880 developers typically don't do frequently enough, and then running it through your CI pipeline 606 00:43:06.880 --> 00:43:08.800 to make sure it builds, it runs all your tests, and it hasn't 607 00:43:08.840 --> 00:43:14.679 broken anything. The advantage there is that as soon as one of your dependencies 608 00:43:14.920 --> 00:43:19.360 upgrades to a new version, you're going to be aware that it's now breaking 609 00:43:19.480 --> 00:43:22.760 something and that you will not necessarily have to fix it right now, but 610 00:43:22.840 --> 00:43:25.159 you'll know that you need to address it in the upcoming versions. Because what 611 00:43:25.280 --> 00:43:30.880 we typically see time and time again, and this is true for Core itself, 612 00:43:30.280 --> 00:43:35.519 is that developers don't upgraad because something has broken, and then they end 613 00:43:35.639 --> 00:43:38.239 up three versions behind, and now you're really in trouble. Yeah, and 614 00:43:38.480 --> 00:43:43.760 you know we've stopped shipping updates to that version, so you know you really 615 00:43:43.840 --> 00:43:46.480 need to update. And now it's a really painful process. And so by 616 00:43:46.599 --> 00:43:51.360 encouraging developers to have canary builders that they might run once a day or once 617 00:43:51.400 --> 00:43:57.760 a week to see what packages have changed, it gives them early warning as 618 00:43:57.800 --> 00:44:00.960 to when things will be when they need to modify their code. Yeah, 619 00:44:00.960 --> 00:44:04.519 you only have to miss a couple of sprints, you know, well you 620 00:44:04.639 --> 00:44:07.719 try, Well, we'll fix that later. Let's go finish these other features, 621 00:44:07.320 --> 00:44:09.880 and then it misses around or two, and now it's a year. 622 00:44:10.159 --> 00:44:13.840 I mean, I think we're incredibly lucky that, you know, the upgrade 623 00:44:13.880 --> 00:44:17.480 cycle from you know, NET sixth and at seventh and at eight hasn't typically 624 00:44:17.599 --> 00:44:22.000 required significant rework. In fact, the only work that you typically see is 625 00:44:22.039 --> 00:44:28.880 things like the analyzers improve and they're now throw more warnings because the code analysis 626 00:44:29.000 --> 00:44:30.079 is better, and they can say, okay, well you're going to get 627 00:44:30.079 --> 00:44:35.199 performance gained if you do this over this, And so typically what you're going 628 00:44:35.280 --> 00:44:37.519 to have to do is go through and address those and a lot of our 629 00:44:37.559 --> 00:44:40.679 projects we typically have them, you know, warning setters error, so that 630 00:44:40.800 --> 00:44:45.159 we're forced to go and fix them. Yeah, and that's great right up 631 00:44:45.199 --> 00:44:47.880 until you do get one of the updates and now there's a thousand fricking warnings. 632 00:44:49.199 --> 00:44:52.480 Yeah, but you know, warnings could just be warnings. Yeah. 633 00:44:52.400 --> 00:44:57.079 Luckily a lot of those ones that generate a thousand warnings are very consistent, 634 00:44:57.519 --> 00:45:00.440 Yeah, like their search and replaceable. Yeah, and quite often we'll point 635 00:45:00.519 --> 00:45:02.880 to you an era of your code where you may be able to do a 636 00:45:02.960 --> 00:45:07.159 global refactor beyond what they're talking so you know, you might have missed the 637 00:45:07.239 --> 00:45:12.159 fact that you're reusing the same bit of code three times or something. So 638 00:45:12.360 --> 00:45:16.440 yeah, yeah, I mean, I'm with you, it's just I also 639 00:45:16.559 --> 00:45:21.039 needed to ship features, right, Like, there's just this that's the constant 640 00:45:21.159 --> 00:45:24.000 battle between he there's a better way to do this versus Yeah, but they 641 00:45:24.079 --> 00:45:29.119 really need this thing out this month. Yeah, And look that's why canaris 642 00:45:29.119 --> 00:45:31.519 are great because they give you that really early warning you can start to factor 643 00:45:31.960 --> 00:45:36.519 any rework and get them on the board. Yeah, exactly, And so 644 00:45:36.639 --> 00:45:39.199 it doesn't become this, Hey we've got to dedicate three sprints to just catching 645 00:45:39.280 --> 00:45:44.920 up. Yeah, I'd rather than get behind on it. What is the 646 00:45:45.119 --> 00:45:49.320 testing approach for you know, you hinted at it in the papeline. Yeah, 647 00:45:49.400 --> 00:45:52.559 So so we do a couple of different testing and some of these come 648 00:45:52.639 --> 00:45:58.440 from our guidance around what we do internally, so where possible. For a 649 00:45:58.480 --> 00:46:00.440 lot of your business logic, unit tests are still the way to go. 650 00:46:00.760 --> 00:46:04.719 So you know, if you have services that make calls and you have view 651 00:46:04.800 --> 00:46:07.039 models and stuff like that, we can you still want to be running unit 652 00:46:07.119 --> 00:46:13.599 test to verify you know, the logic of your application is sound. But 653 00:46:14.079 --> 00:46:16.559 you know where most of the testing and mobile apps goes is in the UI 654 00:46:16.679 --> 00:46:20.760 side of things and making sure that the flow works and so that for that 655 00:46:20.960 --> 00:46:23.719 we have we do have UI tests. So essentially this is running the app, 656 00:46:24.800 --> 00:46:29.719 stepping through various parts of the app and verifying conditions so it may be 657 00:46:30.239 --> 00:46:34.360 verifying that snapshop one page the next hasn't changed, but one iteration of the 658 00:46:34.360 --> 00:46:37.239 built and one next that hasn't changed. Are you using verify same in craps 659 00:46:37.280 --> 00:46:42.920 tool. We don't use it internally. I would recommend using it. It's 660 00:46:43.000 --> 00:46:46.599 an absolutely awesome tool. And so you know again, you know, doing 661 00:46:46.639 --> 00:46:51.360 comparison for screenshots and stuff like that is absolutely fantastic. I know, we 662 00:46:51.800 --> 00:46:52.920 we had the good forces you to talk to same crap and you were an 663 00:46:52.960 --> 00:46:55.760 instant believer, Carl as I recall, like you've used it ever since. 664 00:46:57.000 --> 00:47:00.719 Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, very cool stuff. Yeah that sign crops 665 00:47:00.800 --> 00:47:04.920 out and developed some amazing tools over the time and verifies one of them. 666 00:47:05.360 --> 00:47:10.760 He's one of you. Yeah. Well, and that's I mean, and 667 00:47:10.840 --> 00:47:15.840 I brought that whole line of thinking up, Nick, because testing uys is 668 00:47:15.960 --> 00:47:19.239 hard. It's just you know, I love a unit test. That's because 669 00:47:19.280 --> 00:47:22.320 I have a clear input and output it if they don't match, say something 670 00:47:22.719 --> 00:47:27.880 especially native uy, right, because you're generally comparing pixels sometimes, aren't you. 671 00:47:28.079 --> 00:47:30.239 Yeah. Well, if you've ever taken it, stopped in and taken 672 00:47:30.280 --> 00:47:35.239 a look at the platform pipeline, it takes about four hours to run because 673 00:47:35.440 --> 00:47:37.599 you know, we're running UY tests and that's doing a lot of stuff in 674 00:47:37.679 --> 00:47:42.480 parallel, like we run UY test on the Highways Android where you know the 675 00:47:43.000 --> 00:47:45.760 works for the court framework and that, and that gives us a lot of 676 00:47:45.840 --> 00:47:50.920 confidence where we ship new versions. Yeah, that the core is very well 677 00:47:51.000 --> 00:47:53.360 tested. That's great. It's good to know well and and it speaks to 678 00:47:53.400 --> 00:47:57.000 you. You know, I'm realizing, like we've been talking about UNO for 679 00:47:57.280 --> 00:48:00.079 five six years now, Like there's a reason you guys are still out there. 680 00:48:00.119 --> 00:48:04.039 You've been you've transformed a couple of times. You know, once upon 681 00:48:04.079 --> 00:48:08.039 a time you were the WUP guys, but that's all changed and you had 682 00:48:08.039 --> 00:48:13.079 that w A hook the early days before it was cool, that's right. 683 00:48:13.480 --> 00:48:16.280 Yeah. So the u WP things interesting because even today, if you're going 684 00:48:16.320 --> 00:48:19.760 to build an u WP app and you want to take a cross platform you 685 00:48:19.840 --> 00:48:22.760 can still use the tool set to do that. We still fully support you 686 00:48:22.920 --> 00:48:24.960 WP. And you might think, well, why would you do that if 687 00:48:24.960 --> 00:48:29.760 you're supporting you know when you I The reason being is that there are still 688 00:48:29.800 --> 00:48:34.119 some platforms, name the Xbox where you have to build WP and so you 689 00:48:34.199 --> 00:48:37.639 know those scenarios are still out there. We still have customers who and people 690 00:48:37.679 --> 00:48:42.519 out there with UWP apps that want to take the cross platform or want to 691 00:48:42.599 --> 00:48:45.159 take parts of their app cross platform. Sure, and it may have some 692 00:48:45.440 --> 00:48:50.440 and they're looking at or I rewrite, right, It's like given that choice, 693 00:48:50.480 --> 00:48:52.480 it's like we committed UWP back in the day. We've got this stuff, 694 00:48:52.559 --> 00:48:57.440 we have these we're concerned about what Microsoft's do with YOUWP or not doing, 695 00:48:57.480 --> 00:49:00.960 as the case may be. Uh and and want to go to the 696 00:49:00.000 --> 00:49:02.320 cross plat port and you guys can pick a lot of that up. Yeah, 697 00:49:02.519 --> 00:49:06.039 just to be clear, when you're talking about Xbox apps, you're really 698 00:49:06.079 --> 00:49:09.119 talking about like, you know, forms apps if you will, on Xbox, 699 00:49:09.199 --> 00:49:14.360 not games, not graphics correct. Yeah. Yeah, And you know 700 00:49:14.440 --> 00:49:17.320 there was a time when Microsoft wanted Xbox to be center of the living room 701 00:49:17.800 --> 00:49:22.039 and so you know they did do a very big push for you know, 702 00:49:22.119 --> 00:49:25.039 app developers to come on board, and UWP was that platform. I mean, 703 00:49:25.079 --> 00:49:30.960 there there was a great vision about UWP being you know, this capability 704 00:49:30.000 --> 00:49:35.159 of running everywhere, and some of that still exists today. There's some hints 705 00:49:35.199 --> 00:49:37.840 that they're going to make another stab at it too, you know, like 706 00:49:37.159 --> 00:49:46.239 XN a version the just just a sense that the team is reorganizing, like 707 00:49:46.320 --> 00:49:51.119 there's there seems to be something going on there that we're living on. You 708 00:49:51.199 --> 00:49:52.679 know. I spent some time over on the Windows Weekly side too, and 709 00:49:53.480 --> 00:49:57.880 this has been a recurring threat. It's like there's something going on over you. 710 00:49:58.000 --> 00:50:00.800 I wonder if that'll trickle over to hollow Lands. Yeah. So the 711 00:50:00.880 --> 00:50:04.159 interesting thing is if you we've been watching the whin UI, the winn app 712 00:50:04.239 --> 00:50:07.400 SDK team over the last couple of years, it feels like they really haven't 713 00:50:07.440 --> 00:50:12.199 been moving very fast. No, but they're doing a lot of investment, 714 00:50:12.239 --> 00:50:15.079 which is actually one of the very first times we've seen this with one of 715 00:50:15.119 --> 00:50:21.440 their UI frameworks internally to use it for first party apps, so things like 716 00:50:21.519 --> 00:50:24.199 file Explorer, you know, probably one of the most used apps on Windows 717 00:50:24.440 --> 00:50:28.880 right. New version of that's being done in winn app is DK. Yeah, 718 00:50:29.280 --> 00:50:31.039 and that's smart, right, Like we like it when Microsoft eats the 719 00:50:31.119 --> 00:50:36.880 dog food a you know, it'll never go away, Yeah, exactly, 720 00:50:36.960 --> 00:50:43.639 and b it they beat their own teams up, Like WPF was pretty much 721 00:50:43.760 --> 00:50:46.599 unusable until the studio team used it, yeah, back in twenty ten. 722 00:50:46.800 --> 00:50:52.920 Like the difference between WP two and WP four because numbers are hard. Was 723 00:50:53.599 --> 00:50:57.960 the studio team, and it implemented inside of studio. It had problems, 724 00:50:58.000 --> 00:51:01.320 but they'd also kick the snart. Yeah yeah, I remember those days, 725 00:51:01.400 --> 00:51:07.719 how fondly. Just interesting on that. One of the other sort of areas 726 00:51:07.760 --> 00:51:10.760 where we see customers coming to the platform are from you know, companies that 727 00:51:10.840 --> 00:51:15.639 have invested in WPF and so one of the really neat things that you can 728 00:51:15.719 --> 00:51:21.480 do with there is to start building new components with the UNO on your existing 729 00:51:22.639 --> 00:51:25.480 WPF app. So we have the ability to integrate with an existing app, 730 00:51:27.039 --> 00:51:30.360 run the UNO parts, and that gives you the ability to take parts of 731 00:51:30.440 --> 00:51:34.679 your app cross platform. And you know, obviously probably wouldn't be necessarily too 732 00:51:34.760 --> 00:51:37.239 much on the desktop, but makes a lot of sense for iOS and androids 733 00:51:37.239 --> 00:51:40.320 to take part of your app cross platform. So for example, maybe a 734 00:51:40.400 --> 00:51:45.079 new data capture part. You can really use all of your business logic that 735 00:51:45.119 --> 00:51:46.920 you already have, all of your service calls, all of that stuff, 736 00:51:47.400 --> 00:51:52.719 build the parts that you need for your mobile data capture part in UNO, 737 00:51:52.519 --> 00:51:55.159 and all of a sudden you haven't had to rebuild your app, just so 738 00:51:55.280 --> 00:51:59.400 you can take a cross platform. Right, So you've got a WPF app 739 00:51:59.440 --> 00:52:01.159 and at one point you were kind of looking at Zamma informs and like, 740 00:52:01.320 --> 00:52:05.440 is this gonna work for me? Then now it's become Maui, and you're 741 00:52:05.440 --> 00:52:08.119 still wonder if it's going to work for you. And we're not even gonna 742 00:52:08.119 --> 00:52:13.079 say so. We're like, oh down ha, yes, we all we 743 00:52:13.159 --> 00:52:16.039 all love that. But they I mean, but what I hear you describing 744 00:52:16.119 --> 00:52:19.920 is essentially saying, hey, I can add into this a couple of Uno 745 00:52:20.000 --> 00:52:23.000 components and we have this piece of this larger w p F app that now 746 00:52:23.079 --> 00:52:30.440 runs on iOS and Android. Yeah. Absolutely, what is the mac os 747 00:52:30.920 --> 00:52:35.119 story for Uno? So the mac Os is mac Catalyst, so basically the 748 00:52:35.320 --> 00:52:39.360 the the the mac Light kind of work version. It's kind of like that 749 00:52:39.639 --> 00:52:44.760 that sort of the technology that came from iOS land went through iPad and came 750 00:52:44.840 --> 00:52:47.840 over on Catalyst. But you know, for for the vast majority of apps, 751 00:52:47.880 --> 00:52:51.880 that is a great technology to use. Do we have access to native 752 00:52:52.679 --> 00:52:57.760 platform tools there it is more of a sandbox device than what you get with 753 00:52:57.840 --> 00:53:00.880 the mac os app. So same as MAUI, basically correct, and and 754 00:53:00.960 --> 00:53:06.440 a lot of this is driven by the fact that the Microsoft support for mac 755 00:53:06.480 --> 00:53:12.199 Os as a you know, as a as an alternative to mac Catalyst has 756 00:53:12.280 --> 00:53:15.280 not had the same amount of attention that the mac caitalyists got courtesy of their 757 00:53:15.320 --> 00:53:20.320 being driven by the Maui team. So yeah, so you know that that's 758 00:53:20.440 --> 00:53:23.079 kind of where we are in that sort of Microsoft ecosystem running on mac scenario. 759 00:53:24.840 --> 00:53:29.920 Yeah. I don't think there's a whole lot of Mac os desktop development 760 00:53:30.000 --> 00:53:34.360 going on except for like your you know, your adobees and your music and 761 00:53:34.599 --> 00:53:37.320 video editing and all that stuff, and that's all pretty neative. It's not 762 00:53:37.679 --> 00:53:43.199 very needative and very close to the metal. Yeah, but but there's there's 763 00:53:43.239 --> 00:53:45.239 definitely an opportunity there, particularly, I mean if you if you do have 764 00:53:45.320 --> 00:53:50.840 a lot of customers in the iOS space Catalysts and being able to have that 765 00:53:50.960 --> 00:53:54.280 same level of information available on the on the Mac Sense and the and the 766 00:53:54.400 --> 00:53:59.079 ability to that you basically get it for free with like in the sense of 767 00:53:59.239 --> 00:54:04.159 you know you're building for all these other platforms. You know you've got desktop 768 00:54:04.159 --> 00:54:07.280 support through Windows, it's going to look very similar on Mac os through Catalyst. 769 00:54:07.400 --> 00:54:09.760 Yeah, Yeah, exactly, awesome, very cool. So neck, 770 00:54:09.840 --> 00:54:14.440 what's next for you? What's in your inbox? So the big news is 771 00:54:14.519 --> 00:54:20.079 that we'll continue to invest in that, in that sort of ecosystem, so 772 00:54:20.320 --> 00:54:24.960 life like beginning to end of the developer life cycles, so continue to invest 773 00:54:25.000 --> 00:54:30.599 in the Wizard. We're likely to see some some updates to improve productivity in 774 00:54:30.679 --> 00:54:34.760 terms of developers and the areas that developers really struggle with in terms of building 775 00:54:34.840 --> 00:54:37.840 and deploying apps, and that cycle will continue to go this year. And 776 00:54:37.960 --> 00:54:42.880 that that is hansol of what the platform is about, you know, And 777 00:54:43.039 --> 00:54:45.400 that's not to say that we're continue to not continue to invest in the core. 778 00:54:46.000 --> 00:54:49.800 There is part of the team that's devoted to that, so you know, 779 00:54:49.920 --> 00:54:52.599 performance is still front of mind. There's still a lot of updates that 780 00:54:52.679 --> 00:54:59.280 are to come across for various platform pieces. There there's there's there are new 781 00:54:59.360 --> 00:55:05.320 controls that are on the horizon for things like toolkit and extensions. But definitely 782 00:55:05.400 --> 00:55:09.719 that life cycle that's beginning design ending with an app that's produced out of our 783 00:55:09.760 --> 00:55:15.800 platpline into the stores. Trying to improve the productivity for end to end for 784 00:55:15.880 --> 00:55:19.920 developers is where the team's going for this. And I love your green Field 785 00:55:19.960 --> 00:55:22.840 story, but I'm starting to love your brown Field story. I got an 786 00:55:22.840 --> 00:55:25.079 app and I can add you know, in part way through like thank you, 787 00:55:25.239 --> 00:55:28.719 because that's real life. And look, we recognize that as well. 788 00:55:29.679 --> 00:55:34.079 And look, the reality is that just one little extra bit here is the 789 00:55:34.199 --> 00:55:38.480 reality is that you know, not every control manufacturer or vendor is actually building 790 00:55:38.559 --> 00:55:43.960 controls for the Bunau platform. And so what we can do with the Maui 791 00:55:44.000 --> 00:55:47.360 embedding that we've got is the ability to take controls from sinfusion from Tellery and 792 00:55:47.519 --> 00:55:52.320 bring them on to an application. Now, obviously those will only be supported 793 00:55:52.360 --> 00:55:55.119 on the platforms that they support. For Mali, so they choose to support 794 00:55:55.880 --> 00:56:00.239 all of the Marie platforms. I always adroid Catalyst windows. Then you'll get 795 00:56:00.320 --> 00:56:05.280 those on, you know, by embedding those within the inner platform. So 796 00:56:05.440 --> 00:56:08.360 yeah, we totally recognize that that brownfield story where things aren't as neat and 797 00:56:08.480 --> 00:56:13.800 tidy as we'd expect them to be. It's totally every piece of software I've 798 00:56:13.840 --> 00:56:17.119 ever built. That's fine. Yeah, yeah, And just to be perfect 799 00:56:17.159 --> 00:56:22.039 clear, there's an open source project with paid supportive ill that is exactly right, 800 00:56:22.199 --> 00:56:25.239 yep. So it's one hundred percent open source and there is this paid 801 00:56:25.400 --> 00:56:30.559 enterprise support available. That's how you guys stay alive. Absolutely, it pays 802 00:56:30.599 --> 00:56:31.960 the bills. Now I want people to know, right, it's like, 803 00:56:32.039 --> 00:56:36.119 hey, you can take this other's been I like your free support, it's 804 00:56:36.159 --> 00:56:38.199 good, but if you're going to commit your business to this, buy some 805 00:56:38.320 --> 00:56:42.960 support so that you get priority and so you keep a platform you care about 806 00:56:43.000 --> 00:56:45.800 a live Yeah. And look if you if you monitor the GitHub repolagers and 807 00:56:45.800 --> 00:56:51.320 there's a few of them, you'll see that virtually all of them have an 808 00:56:51.480 --> 00:56:54.679 active contributor from the inner platform team. Yes. I also like that you 809 00:56:54.920 --> 00:57:00.239 drive your paid support through issues in GitHub too, so that everybody and if 810 00:57:00.239 --> 00:57:02.480 it's from it, Yeah, absolutely exactly, it's really I mean, you 811 00:57:02.559 --> 00:57:07.400 know, there's a subtext of their algoing conversation for us to dynam Rocks about 812 00:57:07.559 --> 00:57:10.320 how we make sustainable open source, and you guys are on my list of 813 00:57:10.400 --> 00:57:14.760 people doing it right, like showing a model that works. Yeah. Look, 814 00:57:14.880 --> 00:57:20.960 it's just sustainable open source is a challenge and there's no one model that's 815 00:57:20.960 --> 00:57:23.760 going to fit everyone. I think that there was there was a view that 816 00:57:23.880 --> 00:57:28.599 things like you know, sponsorship and things like that might be an answer, 817 00:57:29.199 --> 00:57:31.199 but I think that people are walking away from that because you know, the 818 00:57:31.320 --> 00:57:37.559 reality is that the people who who should be paying, which typically the companies 819 00:57:37.880 --> 00:57:40.880 are not the ones who are typically fronting the money and offers. There's developers 820 00:57:40.920 --> 00:57:45.519 who recognize the hard work that you know, so many contributors put in that 821 00:57:45.639 --> 00:57:50.119 are contributing you know, a dollar here or ten dollars there, you know, 822 00:57:51.440 --> 00:57:54.639 in supporting. Yeah, that's that cancer staining company now, and I 823 00:57:54.760 --> 00:57:58.039 want to fix that first part that I could. I agree with you is 824 00:57:58.079 --> 00:58:01.519 not happening. But I also preciate that there are business models out there that 825 00:58:01.599 --> 00:58:05.199 work, that have their challenges. I just mean, you know, I 826 00:58:05.280 --> 00:58:07.880 wish we could be better, but we'll all try and do the right thing. 827 00:58:07.320 --> 00:58:10.880 The schew Nick, it's been a pleasure talking to you and keeping us 828 00:58:12.079 --> 00:58:15.199 up to date on UNO and what you've been doing. Thanks, thanks, 829 00:58:15.400 --> 00:58:16.920 thanks for having me on. It's been fantastic. Bet. All right, 830 00:58:17.000 --> 00:58:40.760 we'll talk to you next time. I'm dot net rox. Dot net Rocks 831 00:58:40.880 --> 00:58:45.440 is brought to you by Franklin's Net and produced by Pop Studios, a full 832 00:58:45.519 --> 00:58:51.840 service audio, video and post production facility located physically in New London, Connecticut, 833 00:58:52.159 --> 00:58:57.519 and of course in the cloud online at pwop dot com. Visit our 834 00:58:57.559 --> 00:59:00.400 website at d O T N E t R o c ks dot com for 835 00:59:00.639 --> 00:59:06.440 RSS feeds, downloads, mobile apps, comments, and access to the full 836 00:59:06.599 --> 00:59:10.039 archives going back to show number one, recorded in September two thousand and two. 837 00:59:10.719 --> 00:59:14.760 And make sure you check out our sponsors. They keep us in business. 838 00:59:15.280 --> 00:59:19.920 Now go write some code, See you next time you got JAD middle vans