1 00:00:01,080 --> 00:00:04,799 How'd you like to listen to dot net rocks with no ads? Easy? 2 00:00:05,360 --> 00:00:09,480 Become a patron for just five dollars a month. You get access to a 3 00:00:09,480 --> 00:00:14,279 private RSS feed where all the shows have no ads. Twenty dollars a month. 4 00:00:14,279 --> 00:00:18,440 We'll get you that and a special dot net Rocks patron mug. Sign 5 00:00:18,519 --> 00:00:35,960 up now at Patreon dot dot NetRocks dot com. Hey guess what, it's 6 00:00:36,000 --> 00:00:40,560 dot net rocks. I'm Carl Franklin and I'm Richard Campbell here for your dot 7 00:00:40,679 --> 00:00:45,000 net edification, as we are every week since two thousand and one, well 8 00:00:45,119 --> 00:00:47,880 almost every week two thousand and two, I think it was two thousand Did 9 00:00:47,920 --> 00:00:50,600 I say two thousand and one? Yeah, yes, I'm at two thousand 10 00:00:50,640 --> 00:00:53,439 and two. How silly of me, and I wasn't even there and I 11 00:00:53,520 --> 00:01:00,600 know, right what's wrong here? Okay, So thanks again, and we 12 00:01:00,679 --> 00:01:03,640 have some good stuff coming up today. Nick Randolph is here and we're talking 13 00:01:03,680 --> 00:01:07,920 about who Know and other things. And Richard, how are you, my 14 00:01:08,040 --> 00:01:11,920 friend? I'm good. I really want you to get into your better know 15 00:01:11,120 --> 00:01:17,439 because I have comments on it, so very cool. As I've been working 16 00:01:17,480 --> 00:01:21,840 on some home assistant stuff which should not surprise you, knowing me okay, 17 00:01:22,640 --> 00:01:26,680 and it relates all right, so let's roll crazy music for better no framework 18 00:01:26,760 --> 00:01:36,760 awesome? All right, man, what do you got? I think I 19 00:01:36,799 --> 00:01:41,799 know so not that you don't know. Yeah. So this is from Danny 20 00:01:41,879 --> 00:01:47,920 Avila and it's a GitHub repo called libra chat l I, b R E 21 00:01:48,400 --> 00:01:57,040 chat And the explanation is enhanced chat GPT clone features, open Ai, GPT 22 00:01:57,280 --> 00:02:04,120 for vision bing and THROP, open router, Google, Gemini AI model switching, 23 00:02:04,879 --> 00:02:10,159 message search, lang chain, dal E three chat GPT plugins, Open 24 00:02:10,199 --> 00:02:15,800 AI functions, secure multi user system presets. It's completely open source for self 25 00:02:15,800 --> 00:02:20,840 hosting, more features and development, film and eleven. So this is the 26 00:02:22,159 --> 00:02:27,319 sort of hip thing these days, is to host your own GPT engine in 27 00:02:27,400 --> 00:02:30,240 one form another. Although it sounds like it does, does it actually call 28 00:02:30,280 --> 00:02:34,159 out all these different services? It looks like it calls out. Yeah, 29 00:02:34,199 --> 00:02:37,560 it's sort of like the one place that you can put your prompts through and 30 00:02:37,599 --> 00:02:40,280 then it calls out to all these different services with API keys. That's I 31 00:02:40,319 --> 00:02:43,439 don't know. I haven't run it, but that's what it looks like to 32 00:02:43,479 --> 00:02:45,360 me. Yeah, it does look like that's what it's doing is doing. 33 00:02:45,520 --> 00:02:52,000 You can go to the per call apikes, which I've also done. Yeah, 34 00:02:52,039 --> 00:02:54,039 in home and new house, I a sture. We've had this house 35 00:02:54,039 --> 00:02:57,520 for years, and I put in some simple things for when it was a 36 00:02:57,560 --> 00:03:00,680 rental house, so how to manage it. But now that it's ma place, 37 00:03:00,879 --> 00:03:05,400 you know, things are getting a little more sophisticated. And one of 38 00:03:05,439 --> 00:03:10,080 the features that was popular for us is voice control. And the voice control 39 00:03:10,080 --> 00:03:14,599 systems were typically done through Google or Amazon, both of which are not that 40 00:03:14,719 --> 00:03:17,879 good and seem to be going away like they're both kind of failures. Do 41 00:03:17,919 --> 00:03:21,919 you remember when they were awesome? Yeah, you know, and we kind 42 00:03:21,960 --> 00:03:24,960 of laughed at them. Oh isn't that funny? You know she thought, 43 00:03:25,000 --> 00:03:29,319 I said, you know, mud raker when I sent something, I was 44 00:03:29,400 --> 00:03:30,960 yeah, yeah, yeah, totally right like that. That and then and 45 00:03:31,039 --> 00:03:36,280 so ha. Last year in twenty twenty three, had this big open source 46 00:03:36,319 --> 00:03:40,240 initiative to do their own voice systems that would be independent of those vendors of 47 00:03:40,280 --> 00:03:44,879 the of the big providers, which is a big movement in a change general 48 00:03:44,960 --> 00:03:47,800 is to have everything hosted internally, and so folks have already done extensions to 49 00:03:47,879 --> 00:03:53,479 it to access things like open ai'. So yeah, because the local recognizers 50 00:03:53,439 --> 00:03:57,360 are only so good, and I could make them better with more compute, 51 00:03:57,479 --> 00:03:59,800 Like that's one of the things that's like switch up to higher and hardware. 52 00:04:00,199 --> 00:04:01,759 But just to see if it would really make a difference, I set up 53 00:04:01,759 --> 00:04:08,719 my open ai a PI account and hooked it in. And the the problem 54 00:04:08,759 --> 00:04:12,439 is you're used to saying very simple phrases to h A to do stuff right 55 00:04:12,560 --> 00:04:14,560 now. The fact that you can say I watched you this, this, 56 00:04:14,560 --> 00:04:16,480 this, this, and this right and it goes all right, I did 57 00:04:16,480 --> 00:04:20,360 this, this, this, this is this dude, It's like it's kind 58 00:04:20,399 --> 00:04:24,800 of scary. Yeah, so and once the boss is using it, you 59 00:04:24,839 --> 00:04:28,560 know it's going to stay right. So yeah, of course, of course 60 00:04:28,959 --> 00:04:31,959 I was just looking at the math and for using I'm using GPT three plus 61 00:04:32,000 --> 00:04:36,079 through open a AI a P I cost me about a dollar a month. 62 00:04:36,360 --> 00:04:39,959 It's not bad, pretty easy. I mean, because you're not using it 63 00:04:40,000 --> 00:04:42,160 all the time, you're just no, you're using it only when you need 64 00:04:42,199 --> 00:04:46,360 to interact, and it just doesn't cost that much, you know, realistically. 65 00:04:46,439 --> 00:04:49,160 Yeah, I got used to chat GPT on my phone. I could 66 00:04:49,199 --> 00:04:53,399 just pull up with a voice interface. I gotta ask it anything, and 67 00:04:53,439 --> 00:04:59,319 it, you know, has this great understanding if you will, and it 68 00:04:59,319 --> 00:05:02,079 does great re sponsors. But then I get used to that, and I 69 00:05:02,160 --> 00:05:06,759 say to the one who starts with a something that's a little more complex, 70 00:05:08,000 --> 00:05:12,879 and it just goes I'm sorry, yeah, oh yes, right, I'm 71 00:05:12,959 --> 00:05:18,199 talking to farr chat device. So so these things are going away, you 72 00:05:18,279 --> 00:05:20,680 say, I mean, I kind of knew they would, but I thought 73 00:05:20,680 --> 00:05:25,480 I would have thought Amazon would have, you know, said now with GPT 74 00:05:25,800 --> 00:05:28,600 or now with open Ai. Yeah, you wonder if they will. Of 75 00:05:28,680 --> 00:05:30,160 course, then they have to go to a vendor that you know, supports 76 00:05:30,160 --> 00:05:32,839 someone else. Like now you get to the reality. Let's face it, 77 00:05:32,879 --> 00:05:36,319 that product that Amazon made and we're not saying it's name, so we don't 78 00:05:36,319 --> 00:05:40,439 make people unhappy. Right. We got in trouble for that once, We've 79 00:05:40,439 --> 00:05:44,480 gotten in trouble for that before. Was originally built to sell more stuff on 80 00:05:44,519 --> 00:05:46,959 Amazon, right right, I mean they said as much. They basically gave 81 00:05:46,959 --> 00:05:49,879 away the hardware for costs because they presume that you would say, hey, 82 00:05:50,160 --> 00:05:54,000 you know, get me more laundry soap, that kind of thing, which 83 00:05:54,120 --> 00:05:57,319 largely people didn't do. Didn't do it, and back you know, a 84 00:05:57,360 --> 00:06:00,120 couple of three years ago, Amazon basically mane of this is like, we 85 00:06:00,160 --> 00:06:02,839 spent billions on this thing, it's not paying for itself. We're going to 86 00:06:02,879 --> 00:06:08,519 be cutting back. And the Google devices are even weirder because Google didn't even 87 00:06:08,600 --> 00:06:12,360 have that mechanism other than it was just more search information. It was just 88 00:06:12,399 --> 00:06:15,560 more corporate spying. Effectively, there was no real incentive for them, and 89 00:06:15,600 --> 00:06:17,759 they said the same thing. It's like, this is not working out for 90 00:06:17,839 --> 00:06:20,560 us. We're going to cut it back. Just before you know, within 91 00:06:20,600 --> 00:06:26,000 a year or two, then we have this breakthrough with open AI and language 92 00:06:26,160 --> 00:06:30,319 fundamentally transforms language interfaces anyway. Now it's a scramble to se who's going to 93 00:06:30,319 --> 00:06:34,040 implement what. Meantime, you know, Microsoft's kind of laughing here. All 94 00:06:34,079 --> 00:06:38,240 that open a stuff runs on Azure, so it's like, oh, if 95 00:06:38,240 --> 00:06:43,600 you're going to use it, come on down and need some EMPA. So, 96 00:06:43,720 --> 00:06:45,560 I mean, it's a crazy time for all of us, There's no 97 00:06:45,600 --> 00:06:47,959 two ways about it. But I am finding you know, I find I 98 00:06:48,120 --> 00:06:53,680 use get hub copilot a lot and having it added into Aha, Now I'm 99 00:06:53,720 --> 00:06:56,720 going to look at can I make it totally inside the house right like it's 100 00:06:56,759 --> 00:07:00,399 all especially here or we're battling outages all the time, it's like, will 101 00:07:00,439 --> 00:07:02,879 let's function without the Internet? Like can your smart home function without the Internet? 102 00:07:02,879 --> 00:07:05,360 And that's the goal always is to get to that point. Well, 103 00:07:05,399 --> 00:07:11,920 at least a smart device, right, a smart a Amazon thing like that 104 00:07:12,000 --> 00:07:15,519 you can actually use, would be really good. Anyway, check out librachat. 105 00:07:15,639 --> 00:07:18,319 There's the link there. But if Ferry company to just speak at, 106 00:07:18,399 --> 00:07:24,319 it's getub dot com slash Danny Dash a vila a v I la slash librachat. 107 00:07:24,319 --> 00:07:27,079 Who's talking to us? Richard Grady comments off the show sixteen eighty nine, 108 00:07:27,120 --> 00:07:30,279 which is the last time I think we talked about who knows with Kenzie 109 00:07:30,319 --> 00:07:35,319 Whalen, Like there's a while ago who used to be with Uno and we 110 00:07:35,319 --> 00:07:39,560 were talking about building apps. So that's back in May of twenty twenty, 111 00:07:39,600 --> 00:07:44,759 hence the you know show number and this particular comment from that time. This 112 00:07:44,800 --> 00:07:46,759 is from Devin Global, who's a longtime listener as well. Hey Devin, 113 00:07:47,160 --> 00:07:51,759 Hey, and Devinnead is very concrete comment. He says, the promise of 114 00:07:51,759 --> 00:07:56,000 cross platform tools is great, build once, run everywhere. Boy, we've 115 00:07:56,000 --> 00:07:58,680 been telling ourselves that live for a while. Yeah, that's right, ohly 116 00:07:58,800 --> 00:08:03,279 Man, Like you know zamor Informs and now dot net Maui. You get 117 00:08:03,279 --> 00:08:07,240 the timing rights back in twenty twenty, allowing smaller teams a much broader reach. 118 00:08:07,399 --> 00:08:11,360 There's one kind of expertise that seems to get glossed over, and that's 119 00:08:11,480 --> 00:08:15,800 all of the nuances in the native design language. Sure I can use these 120 00:08:15,879 --> 00:08:18,480 tools to make control look native across several platforms. However, it still seems 121 00:08:18,480 --> 00:08:22,759 like you need an expert in iOS, Android and Windows UX to show where 122 00:08:22,839 --> 00:08:28,000 and how to use those controls in a way the user expects. There's an 123 00:08:28,000 --> 00:08:31,320 incredible opportunity for these cross platform tools to help developers quote fall into the pit 124 00:08:31,360 --> 00:08:37,240 of success by using the right thing on each platform. Also, it'd be 125 00:08:37,320 --> 00:08:41,399 nice to see cross platform documentation. It helps developers understand things from the perspective 126 00:08:41,399 --> 00:08:45,360 of a cross platform developer instead of as a single platform developer, as each 127 00:08:45,639 --> 00:08:50,759 vendor seems to assume. A good start is the documentation from the Zamoran team. 128 00:08:50,879 --> 00:08:54,519 In many cases, their docks of iosapis is better than the ones that 129 00:08:54,559 --> 00:08:58,120 are provided by Apple because they had to reverse engineer a lot of that documentations 130 00:08:58,720 --> 00:09:03,039 back the day too. There are credible things on the horizon and I beg 131 00:09:03,120 --> 00:09:11,200 the tool vendors not to let JavaScript win this one. Please please, because 132 00:09:11,480 --> 00:09:16,320 when you talk about the original cross platform language, man like that JavaScript has 133 00:09:16,440 --> 00:09:20,440 been there a long long time. Yeah, or so for better or worse. 134 00:09:20,240 --> 00:09:24,120 I know Nick's got some great comments on this, so we're gonna we'll 135 00:09:24,159 --> 00:09:26,320 do his intro with Devin. Hang in there. We're gonna have some comments 136 00:09:26,399 --> 00:09:30,399 for you on this and a copy music Coby is on its way to you, 137 00:09:30,440 --> 00:09:31,399 and if you'd like a copy used to Cobey, I write a comment 138 00:09:31,440 --> 00:09:35,639 on the website at dot now rocks dot com or on the facebooks you publish 139 00:09:35,639 --> 00:09:37,480 every show there, and if you comment there and a real the show, 140 00:09:37,519 --> 00:09:39,320 we'll leend you copy music to Goby. And you can follow us on Twitter 141 00:09:39,399 --> 00:09:43,440 or ex or whatever the hell they're calling it today, but you can also 142 00:09:43,480 --> 00:09:46,360 follow us on mastadon I'm at Carl Franklin at tech hub dot social, and 143 00:09:46,399 --> 00:09:50,080 I'm Rich Campbell at masadon social sent us dute, Okay, let's bring on 144 00:09:50,159 --> 00:09:54,919 Nick Randolph. Nick currently runs built to Rome, which focuses on building rich 145 00:09:54,960 --> 00:10:01,159 mobile applications. Nick's been identified as a Microsoft MVP and recognition of his work 146 00:10:01,159 --> 00:10:05,600 and expertise with the Microsoft Application platforms. He's still an active contributor in the 147 00:10:05,600 --> 00:10:11,960 device application development space via his blog at Nisnettravels dot built to Rome dot Com. 148 00:10:11,320 --> 00:10:15,360 Put a link to that on the show page too. Nick has been 149 00:10:15,360 --> 00:10:18,559 invited to present at a variety of events, including Techhead and I Night Australia 150 00:10:18,600 --> 00:10:24,519 and New Zealand, DDD, NDC, and local user groups. He's also 151 00:10:24,600 --> 00:10:28,320 authored multiple books on Visual Studio Windows development and helped judge multiple world finals for 152 00:10:28,360 --> 00:10:33,600 the Imagined Cup. Nick has worked on numerous mobile applications and has helped hundreds 153 00:10:33,600 --> 00:10:37,799 of developers build their own mobile applications. Nick has been involved with apps for 154 00:10:37,840 --> 00:10:43,799 well known brands such as Domain dot com, dot Au, ninesman AFL, 155 00:10:43,000 --> 00:10:48,799 NRL, Quantis, JB, hi Fi, nab Stand, and boost Juice, 156 00:10:48,320 --> 00:10:52,720 and is also working on the UNO platform. What is your uh, 157 00:10:54,159 --> 00:10:56,919 what's your role on UNO because it's not in your bio. Yeah, my 158 00:10:56,960 --> 00:11:01,159 bio is basically the one that I used to build your OW and so I 159 00:11:01,200 --> 00:11:05,159 mean I am working full time for the Owner platform and so as part of 160 00:11:05,159 --> 00:11:11,120 that, I wanted the sort of the senior team there, and there's a 161 00:11:11,200 --> 00:11:16,200 huge amount of stuff that we're working on to basically accelerate developing on a cross 162 00:11:16,240 --> 00:11:20,799 platform, and so I'm across quite a lot of the day to day stuff 163 00:11:20,799 --> 00:11:22,679 there, which is really awesome to see, very cool. So for those 164 00:11:22,720 --> 00:11:28,039 who don't know about UNO, or don't remember it or whatever, I can 165 00:11:28,200 --> 00:11:35,039 maybe give you the elevator pitch it. It's sort of it's for it's sort 166 00:11:35,039 --> 00:11:43,039 of zamorin right and MAUI, but instead of using the zamorin flavor of Zamal, 167 00:11:43,679 --> 00:11:50,279 you're actually building your apps to win those Universal platform Is that right? 168 00:11:50,480 --> 00:11:54,200 Well, it used to be. Yeah, so what used to be the 169 00:11:54,279 --> 00:11:58,519 Universal or UWP which is now sort of evolved, or you know Microsoft's V 170 00:11:58,679 --> 00:12:01,679 two version of it, which is when u I three and the winn app 171 00:12:01,799 --> 00:12:07,159 SDK. So yeah, So UNO is quite a lot of things, and 172 00:12:07,320 --> 00:12:11,360 the name kind of alludes to that. So the un platform, but definitely 173 00:12:11,399 --> 00:12:16,159 you're right, at the heart of it is a cross platform and framework UNO 174 00:12:16,159 --> 00:12:22,279 Core that is essentially taking the API set that comes with when you I or 175 00:12:22,279 --> 00:12:28,720 win app STK and making it available across all of the other platforms. And 176 00:12:28,759 --> 00:12:31,840 so the goal there is that you know, wherever dot net will run the 177 00:12:31,919 --> 00:12:35,519 un platform will run. What's different about this in MAUI is that Maui seems 178 00:12:35,519 --> 00:12:41,799 to be backing away from when UI or just like not maybe backing away from 179 00:12:41,840 --> 00:12:46,399 it, but the focus isn't on the Windows desktop experience with MAUI, even 180 00:12:46,399 --> 00:12:50,240 though it does work, whereas you know that that's what you sort of start 181 00:12:50,279 --> 00:12:54,039 with on the UNER platform, is that right? Yeah? And so again 182 00:12:54,080 --> 00:12:58,080 this comes down to the heritage of all of these cross platform tools, is 183 00:12:58,080 --> 00:13:01,399 they all come with their own sort of therefore own point of origin. So 184 00:13:01,720 --> 00:13:05,360 in the case of dot m MAUI, obviously that came from Zarat forms which 185 00:13:05,399 --> 00:13:09,879 came from Zarath, and so their heritage is in the Zaron platforms, and 186 00:13:09,919 --> 00:13:16,159 so they've evolved as such an abstraction over those and then they integrated Windows or 187 00:13:16,240 --> 00:13:20,279 UWP and with now it's now based on when you I three. But they've 188 00:13:20,279 --> 00:13:24,440 got their own abstraction there and their own direction that they're then taking that to 189 00:13:24,559 --> 00:13:31,000 go cross platform. And yet bringing on board Desktop for them has been something 190 00:13:31,000 --> 00:13:35,200 that they brought into the fold, whereas the platform team have almost come from 191 00:13:35,200 --> 00:13:39,120 the other direction. We've come from a Windows centric API set and making that 192 00:13:39,279 --> 00:13:45,679 available cross platform, and so you know, part of the platform approach is 193 00:13:45,720 --> 00:13:48,840 that we have extra things like the toolkit, which allows us to take what 194 00:13:50,039 --> 00:13:54,600 is essentially a Windows framework and make it cross platform in the sense of and 195 00:13:54,960 --> 00:13:58,720 you alluded to this in the introduction of the reader's comments, is that, 196 00:13:58,919 --> 00:14:01,519 you know, if you're building cross platform, when you're building for iOS or 197 00:14:01,559 --> 00:14:05,919 androids, you kind of wanted the app to feel natively at home on there, 198 00:14:05,919 --> 00:14:09,840 so you'd expect things like a navigation bar, or you'd expect, you 199 00:14:09,840 --> 00:14:13,279 know, the swipe interactions and things like that. And that's where the platform 200 00:14:13,360 --> 00:14:18,519 part really comes into it. Isn't there a philosophical point here about do you 201 00:14:18,679 --> 00:14:22,279 maybe your app look neative to the device versus make the app consistent across all 202 00:14:22,320 --> 00:14:26,399 devices. Yeah? Absolutely, like the Facebook apps kind of the same no 203 00:14:26,399 --> 00:14:28,399 matter whether you're using iOS or Android or anything else. Yeah. So, 204 00:14:28,399 --> 00:14:31,919 so if we look back at the sort of the origins of cross platform, 205 00:14:31,960 --> 00:14:37,600 particularly in the dot net space and another technologies were similar to this, is 206 00:14:37,639 --> 00:14:41,039 that when you know, this framework came about, there was definitely a philosophy 207 00:14:41,159 --> 00:14:45,799 of make it look at home on the device. So for Android it would 208 00:14:45,799 --> 00:14:50,080 be material, for Windows it would be fluent for ioscoop Patino, and yet 209 00:14:50,080 --> 00:14:56,240 that that kind of philosophy it runs into problems because designers essentially have to design 210 00:14:56,279 --> 00:15:01,840 things three times and then you're stuck with what looks like every other app on 211 00:15:01,879 --> 00:15:05,279 the platform and not really able to apply your own company's brand very well to 212 00:15:05,360 --> 00:15:09,720 it or in a consistent way. And so what we found is that the 213 00:15:09,799 --> 00:15:13,320 sort of the design philosophy has sort of evolved and shipped, and as you 214 00:15:13,360 --> 00:15:16,639 said, what you kind of see today is that the brand overreach, the 215 00:15:16,759 --> 00:15:22,480 overwrites everything in the sense that you know your brand is more important than necessarily 216 00:15:22,639 --> 00:15:26,360 making you look one hundred percent like alioais app. I haven't used, you 217 00:15:26,519 --> 00:15:31,679 know, but I have used Maui a lot, and I find that if 218 00:15:31,720 --> 00:15:37,639 you go down the Zamal route with Maui, you find you run in pretty 219 00:15:37,720 --> 00:15:43,080 darn quickly to things that aren't consistent across the platforms. And something that works 220 00:15:43,279 --> 00:15:48,360 in you know, in Windows desktop or Mac desktop and might even work an 221 00:15:48,360 --> 00:15:52,519 Android, doesn't work in iOS and oh it's because you have to wait because 222 00:15:52,519 --> 00:15:56,480 they're working on that, right And so I got tired of that. And 223 00:15:56,799 --> 00:16:03,039 because I've been doing Blazer since its inception, I use Blazer as my UI 224 00:16:03,559 --> 00:16:07,360 with Maui. So it's kind of like the hybrid approach. Yeah, because 225 00:16:07,360 --> 00:16:11,720 as Richard said when he was reading the comment, you know, JavaScript is 226 00:16:11,720 --> 00:16:17,559 the original cross platform language, and what is Blazer except the c sharpness of 227 00:16:17,720 --> 00:16:22,679 JavaScript and with all the dom which is the real cross platform thing. Right, 228 00:16:22,120 --> 00:16:27,960 the browser people have figured out how to make their platform cross platform and 229 00:16:29,080 --> 00:16:36,639 consistent. And so I find there's more consistency with Blazer in Maui Native for 230 00:16:36,799 --> 00:16:41,720 mobile apps, right, hybrid apps. Then I don't run into these little 231 00:16:41,759 --> 00:16:45,080 problems that just seem to come out of nowhere, and they can really put 232 00:16:45,080 --> 00:16:48,919 a dent in your schedule, you know for sure. And the browser wars, 233 00:16:49,000 --> 00:16:52,039 you know, it's taken them decades to get to get it to a 234 00:16:52,080 --> 00:16:56,679 point where there are less inconsistencies between browsers, between platforms, et cetera. 235 00:16:56,879 --> 00:17:03,799 Right, Yeah, emphasis on less, yes, exactly, Yeah, many 236 00:17:03,919 --> 00:17:07,599 less though there are. And and you know, from a Blazer perspective, 237 00:17:07,599 --> 00:17:11,480 a lot of that those inconsistencies I had to buy the by the technology, 238 00:17:11,240 --> 00:17:17,680 and so the integration and the hybrid approach there is a valid approach. Now, 239 00:17:17,920 --> 00:17:19,559 do you get the same level of performance, do you get the same 240 00:17:19,640 --> 00:17:25,319 level of device integration. You know, those are all questions that come to 241 00:17:25,359 --> 00:17:27,799 it. Well, I get the same level of device integration, but in 242 00:17:29,000 --> 00:17:33,839 performance, all I care about is if it's gonna be good enough, right, 243 00:17:33,920 --> 00:17:37,799 Yeah, if the user doesn't care, you know, and yeah, 244 00:17:37,839 --> 00:17:41,240 yeah, you're going to be using more memory, so you know, lower 245 00:17:41,279 --> 00:17:45,720 memory, lower power devices may have an issue. But anyway, I didn't 246 00:17:45,720 --> 00:17:49,200 bring that up to diss you know, it's just that I don't know about 247 00:17:49,240 --> 00:17:55,480 it. So is there a sure and is there a hybrid mode for so 248 00:17:55,480 --> 00:17:59,839 so we can support doing web content. So there is an approach to that. 249 00:18:00,079 --> 00:18:03,799 And one of the things that we're definitely considering and you know, working 250 00:18:03,799 --> 00:18:07,920 with our customers on, is prioritization around that hybrid level of support that for 251 00:18:08,000 --> 00:18:12,079 not only Blazer, but other you know, web components, whether it building 252 00:18:12,160 --> 00:18:17,839 Angular or React, and they will make sense to integrate into the app platform. 253 00:18:17,880 --> 00:18:21,440 And from our perspective, we would definitely like to see a more you 254 00:18:21,480 --> 00:18:26,200 know, an approach that goes beyond just including Blazer. But just to just 255 00:18:26,240 --> 00:18:30,720 coming back to the the you know, the the inconsistencies I should say, 256 00:18:30,759 --> 00:18:37,200 between different technology and different platforms. One of the philosophies behind the platform is 257 00:18:37,599 --> 00:18:41,599 PicTel perfect everywhere. And so the idea is that when you build your app 258 00:18:41,599 --> 00:18:44,559 for one platform or you you know, whether you're being you know, working 259 00:18:44,559 --> 00:18:49,519 in the iOS simulator or the Android emulator or on native Windows, once you 260 00:18:49,640 --> 00:18:53,319 build it, you should have the same render experience on all of the platforms. 261 00:18:55,160 --> 00:18:57,799 And so you know that, and that includes the web and Linux and 262 00:18:57,839 --> 00:19:02,839 stuff. You know that they're is a wealth of different platforms that are available 263 00:19:02,880 --> 00:19:04,960 using the UNER platform, and the goal is to make sure that they will 264 00:19:04,960 --> 00:19:11,960 render pixel perfect. And that's not notwithstanding the fact that we are still using 265 00:19:11,000 --> 00:19:15,039 the underlying technology to render. So what I mean by that is, you 266 00:19:15,079 --> 00:19:21,079 know, on on iOS we're using you know, the native widgets on iOS. 267 00:19:21,319 --> 00:19:25,440 On Android, the same on the Web we're using phegmal rendering yep, 268 00:19:25,519 --> 00:19:30,960 exactly, And so you do get the native capabilities around you know, interaction 269 00:19:30,359 --> 00:19:33,960 around accessibility, so you know, doing things like text to voice. Those 270 00:19:34,000 --> 00:19:37,839 are important from the accessibility perspective, and you get all of those because we're 271 00:19:37,920 --> 00:19:42,119 using the device components, even though we've made sure that we're getting a pixel 272 00:19:42,119 --> 00:19:48,319 perfect rendering between the different platforms. Yeah, and the other side of pixel 273 00:19:48,359 --> 00:19:53,640 perfect rendering is perfect behavior application. I mean that's maybe even more important when 274 00:19:53,680 --> 00:20:00,359 I expand you know, a multiple hierarchy tree or less through whatever, is 275 00:20:00,400 --> 00:20:04,599 it going to behave the same way on iOS as it does and Android. 276 00:20:04,920 --> 00:20:11,160 This is just one thing I'm thinking about from you know, lists of lists 277 00:20:11,200 --> 00:20:15,640 within lists and next things have been a real problem in Maui's AMML last year. 278 00:20:15,759 --> 00:20:19,400 Yeah, and you know, performance is one of those things that we 279 00:20:19,519 --> 00:20:23,599 keep on coming back to and try to continue to improve and work on because 280 00:20:23,920 --> 00:20:29,160 you know that because you've got that obstruction layer, you know, what works 281 00:20:29,160 --> 00:20:32,960 on one platform that doesn't necessarily work the same one other platforms. So there 282 00:20:33,400 --> 00:20:37,599 is a you know, a continual effort to make sure that we're performing the 283 00:20:37,640 --> 00:20:41,079 best we can or all platforms. And so yeah, I think, kind 284 00:20:41,079 --> 00:20:45,680 of calling back to Devon's comment on all of this, I think there's a 285 00:20:45,720 --> 00:20:52,160 broader idea of are you building this for internal use versus showing it to the 286 00:20:52,200 --> 00:20:55,640 public. I don't know what your customer base looks like, nick Like, 287 00:20:55,839 --> 00:20:59,519 because I do think there's a very different attitude to hey, we need to 288 00:20:59,519 --> 00:21:03,519 make this work for the company on their mobile devices versus we want the public 289 00:21:03,559 --> 00:21:07,880 to use them. Yeah. Look, absolutely, And what we saw very 290 00:21:07,359 --> 00:21:11,359 very early days of sort of mobile apps is that the companies would invest no 291 00:21:11,519 --> 00:21:17,960 cycles into anything design related and what they found is the attrition or the usage 292 00:21:17,960 --> 00:21:21,440 of those of as apps are very low. So these days, with something 293 00:21:21,480 --> 00:21:23,799 like the Inner Platform, you could still rapidly build out an application. And 294 00:21:23,839 --> 00:21:27,559 we'll talk a little bit more about the various Upper platform components that help with 295 00:21:27,640 --> 00:21:33,400 that process. But you can very rapidly build out an application that looks really 296 00:21:33,400 --> 00:21:37,640 good, it's pixel perfect on every device, and yet is rolled out really 297 00:21:37,720 --> 00:21:41,880 quickly for the enterprise. Now that's not to say that you couldn't build a 298 00:21:41,920 --> 00:21:47,599 facebookly world style application or quality level you know, including animations and things like 299 00:21:47,640 --> 00:21:49,920 that with the Inner Platform. But what we do see is that a lot 300 00:21:49,920 --> 00:21:53,880 of enterprises that are coming to the Inner Platform because of that rapid ability to 301 00:21:53,960 --> 00:21:59,079 rapidly roll out applications. And is it for the internal use apps or are 302 00:21:59,119 --> 00:22:03,599 they thinking about the public facing apps. It can be for both, definitely, 303 00:22:03,599 --> 00:22:06,799 for sure, I'm with you, It's just I would think that requirements 304 00:22:06,799 --> 00:22:10,599 are different. Look they are, and for you know, what we refer 305 00:22:10,680 --> 00:22:15,319 to as typically consumer facing apps, a lot of those will have fairly heavy 306 00:22:15,400 --> 00:22:18,960 graphic kind of requirements on them, so you know, they'll have very intricate 307 00:22:19,000 --> 00:22:23,480 transitions. You know, some of some of the apps like Facebook and Twitter 308 00:22:23,480 --> 00:22:27,279 are actually credibly simple from a transitions perspective. But then you can look at 309 00:22:27,319 --> 00:22:33,920 some of the more creative shopping based applications and they've got some very sophisticated animations 310 00:22:33,000 --> 00:22:37,960 and things like that, And those ones are ones where we will prioritize, 311 00:22:37,039 --> 00:22:41,400 you know, the different animations and different flows as they come in from our 312 00:22:41,440 --> 00:22:47,400 customer requirements. But definitely I'm in the you know, for people who or 313 00:22:47,440 --> 00:22:51,480 for companies that want to build out an application, even if it's consumer facing, 314 00:22:51,720 --> 00:22:53,359 the inner platform is a great choice and a great starting point for them, 315 00:22:53,519 --> 00:22:59,960 right, I mean, and you're mostly describing the esthetic elements that consume 316 00:23:00,240 --> 00:23:02,799 are going to want a really good looking up but it's worth putting time in 317 00:23:02,799 --> 00:23:07,759 it where your employees can live with a mediocre interface as long as it's functional. 318 00:23:08,640 --> 00:23:11,559 Actually, my Firm Media thought was, well, we know that these 319 00:23:11,720 --> 00:23:15,680 cross platform frameworks have an overhead, their apps tend to be larger and so 320 00:23:15,759 --> 00:23:18,920 forth, but I wonder if the consumer cares at all. Yeah, like 321 00:23:19,000 --> 00:23:25,039 who looks at memory usage in an app except a geek. I think only 322 00:23:25,079 --> 00:23:27,599 three or four years ago, you know, it's size of app and download 323 00:23:27,599 --> 00:23:32,839 speeds and stuff like that was super critical. I think with modern devices particularly 324 00:23:32,880 --> 00:23:37,240 and like the you know, the developed world, we don't tend to focus 325 00:23:37,319 --> 00:23:41,920 on those as much. Definitely, if you're targeting you know, areas where 326 00:23:41,960 --> 00:23:45,759 there's low coverage and devices will be typically you know, a generational too older, 327 00:23:45,960 --> 00:23:49,000 then that can still be a priority. And yeah, there's definitely one 328 00:23:49,039 --> 00:23:53,079 area where you know native will win out. So if you build the pure 329 00:23:53,160 --> 00:23:56,839 native tools, you'll always be able to get a smaller run time, of 330 00:23:56,839 --> 00:23:59,799 smaller footprint, et cetera. Yeah, I would argue when you get down 331 00:23:59,799 --> 00:24:03,960 to old bandwidth and so forth, you switch to web like they're not going 332 00:24:03,960 --> 00:24:07,799 to run the client anyway. Possibly, although you know, when you're talking 333 00:24:07,839 --> 00:24:11,839 about low bandwidth, you know, if you're going to rural areas, web's 334 00:24:11,920 --> 00:24:15,079 not an option because you don't have any local caching and you don't have any 335 00:24:15,440 --> 00:24:19,519 you know, off lines, right and well PWA supposedly, but yeah you 336 00:24:19,559 --> 00:24:25,519 can. Yeah, it's just none of it's good. All of it's bad. 337 00:24:25,720 --> 00:24:27,839 I was going to say Peter w A. But the investment that you've 338 00:24:27,880 --> 00:24:30,519 been getting it to work on, Peter wa, you could have built using 339 00:24:30,519 --> 00:24:36,400 the platform and have a full synchronization solution. You just download my code from 340 00:24:36,400 --> 00:24:41,359 blazer train. Fair. But I mean, but to your point that when 341 00:24:41,400 --> 00:24:45,799 it comes to disconnected scenarios, these frameworks help a lot, and you know 342 00:24:47,039 --> 00:24:49,960 specifically, Yeah, and one of the really interesting things about that is that 343 00:24:51,319 --> 00:24:55,680 you know, there are other technologies out there, so Flutter and you know, 344 00:24:55,880 --> 00:24:59,480 cross platform frameworks that are out there. And one of the nice things 345 00:24:59,480 --> 00:25:03,079 that we've benefit it from being in the Microsoft ecosystem is all of the libraries 346 00:25:03,359 --> 00:25:07,400 and technology and all of the open source that goes on in terms of these 347 00:25:07,440 --> 00:25:11,319 things like synchronization frameworks, and you know, people have got there's so much 348 00:25:11,359 --> 00:25:17,799 invested by Microsoft and third parties into making such a broad ecosystem that we will 349 00:25:17,839 --> 00:25:21,279 benefit from. And so you know, if something's that's built for don Ed 350 00:25:21,319 --> 00:25:25,920 eight or seven, you can bring into your UNO platform application just buyer and 351 00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:30,440 you get reference and it's just incredible amount of stuff that just works. So 352 00:25:30,519 --> 00:25:33,559 yeah, it's an old estradation line. It's like it was easier to make 353 00:25:33,599 --> 00:25:37,680 connectivity everywhere than it was to make a good disconnected line that was That was 354 00:25:37,880 --> 00:25:41,960 true twenty years ago and it's true today. Yeah, you know, it's 355 00:25:41,000 --> 00:25:45,319 like, yeah, we just meet their you know, starlink more Internet everywhere. 356 00:25:45,920 --> 00:25:49,000 I caught it with one of the fellow MVPs probably a couple of weeks 357 00:25:49,039 --> 00:25:52,039 ago now, and we were reminiscing about the old Pocket PC e days. 358 00:25:52,119 --> 00:25:56,680 And I swear that we are still building this still tackling the same fundamental problems 359 00:25:56,799 --> 00:26:00,759 in terms of app development today that we work fifteen sixteen years ago. You 360 00:26:00,799 --> 00:26:03,359 know, it's just incredible. I mean, we have a better user experience 361 00:26:03,400 --> 00:26:07,640 and it's easier to use that al to build an incredible you know, user 362 00:26:07,680 --> 00:26:12,079 interface, But fundamentally we're still solving the same problems. Well, and it's 363 00:26:12,079 --> 00:26:15,599 still the same issue, which is the customer couldn't care less about Crafts platform. 364 00:26:15,640 --> 00:26:18,279 It's only us that cares about The customer just wants to work on their 365 00:26:18,319 --> 00:26:25,640 device. Absolutely yes. And this is where the investment into technology such as 366 00:26:25,720 --> 00:26:30,759 web assembly is going to be really interesting because and web assimbly not just in 367 00:26:30,799 --> 00:26:33,720 the browser, but also if you think about the ability to run a web 368 00:26:33,720 --> 00:26:40,160 assembly app in a native in essentially a sandbox on any device. That's kind 369 00:26:40,160 --> 00:26:42,079 of like an interesting story because now all of a sudden, you back to 370 00:26:42,079 --> 00:26:45,640 your point about having it web technology that now runs everywhere. If you can 371 00:26:45,680 --> 00:26:51,440 make it work in web assembly or any language you could, yeah, exactly, 372 00:26:51,480 --> 00:26:53,240 you can now run it on any piece of technology that's able to run 373 00:26:53,480 --> 00:26:57,559 you know, a sandbox web assembly, right, it's the universal well then 374 00:26:57,720 --> 00:27:03,720 the Nescent Universe, our Soul runtime operating system. Yeah, yeah, will 375 00:27:03,160 --> 00:27:07,160 you know where it gets weird? And I've had conversations with Sanderson on this. 376 00:27:07,359 --> 00:27:11,680 You know, over a whiskey or two is at the edge, like 377 00:27:11,799 --> 00:27:15,759 on a CDN, I could be running a w A container. So you 378 00:27:15,759 --> 00:27:18,519 know, headla, it's not the client, it's not the server, it's 379 00:27:18,599 --> 00:27:22,680 in between. Yeah, and you know he's already thought of all these things. 380 00:27:22,839 --> 00:27:25,400 Of course he has, and he thought about it years ago, years 381 00:27:25,440 --> 00:27:27,599 ago, yeah, ten years ago. Like I'm pretty sure he's actually an 382 00:27:27,599 --> 00:27:33,799 alien and he's just come down to help us, you know, but we 383 00:27:33,799 --> 00:27:37,599 should probably take a break. Yeah, let's do that. We'll be right 384 00:27:37,599 --> 00:27:45,240 back after these important messages and we're back. It's dot net rocks on Carl 385 00:27:45,240 --> 00:27:49,039 Franklin. That's Richard Campbell, Hey, and we're talking to Nick Randolph about 386 00:27:49,039 --> 00:27:52,759 the UNO platform, the latest, the greatest, the newest, which I 387 00:27:52,759 --> 00:27:56,880 don't think we've talked about all that much yet. Actually, no, no, 388 00:27:56,680 --> 00:28:00,200 no, we've sort of been in philosophy land and over here. So 389 00:28:00,279 --> 00:28:07,240 let's talk about We talked about the philosophy around the core, but there's the 390 00:28:07,279 --> 00:28:10,759 platform, and you know, one of the motivations behind the name is that, 391 00:28:11,200 --> 00:28:14,279 you know, it's all about building you know, just not just the 392 00:28:14,319 --> 00:28:17,960 core, but all of the bits that are developer needs, from design all 393 00:28:18,000 --> 00:28:21,279 the way through to publishing your app. And so you know, over the 394 00:28:21,319 --> 00:28:25,559 last you know, X number of years we've been building not just the core, 395 00:28:25,640 --> 00:28:29,359 but there's things like the toolkit. We've got a raft of extensions that 396 00:28:29,400 --> 00:28:32,640 are based on you know, what Microsoft's done with the Microsoft Extensions, but 397 00:28:32,839 --> 00:28:37,279 tailor to building an UNO platform. So you know, there's device specific feats 398 00:28:37,279 --> 00:28:41,359 and bits in that that we can leverage our extensions. We've got support for 399 00:28:41,400 --> 00:28:44,400 sea shup markups, so you're not just restricted to zamble anymore. You can 400 00:28:44,440 --> 00:28:48,960 now you know, use a very fluent or structured c sharp markup language to 401 00:28:48,000 --> 00:28:52,680 basically create your apps that's very cool. Yeah, and again that's about breaking 402 00:28:52,680 --> 00:28:56,240 down the lane the learning that developers have to go through to actually building apps. 403 00:28:56,319 --> 00:28:59,720 Right, you still need to understand, you know, things like what's 404 00:28:59,720 --> 00:29:03,119 a tech block and what's a button and stuff like that. Sure you know 405 00:29:03,200 --> 00:29:07,200 you're not learning a you know, a language to which was really designed for 406 00:29:07,519 --> 00:29:10,759 a tool. Right at the end of the day, nobody likes writing zamle 407 00:29:11,200 --> 00:29:15,920 or XML. I mean, those who are always tool orientedy technologies, even 408 00:29:15,920 --> 00:29:18,359 though some of them, like myself, just did get very fluent to be 409 00:29:18,400 --> 00:29:22,480 able to write them. But yeah, I mean, we now have incredible 410 00:29:22,480 --> 00:29:27,519 sea sharp markup, which which mirrors the capability of z owl and yet it 411 00:29:27,519 --> 00:29:33,279 gives us this ability to write the entire app just in C sharp and I 412 00:29:33,279 --> 00:29:34,640 mean, I certainly that's appealing to folks. It's like, this is the 413 00:29:34,720 --> 00:29:38,400 language I know and I'm comfortable in. This is what my team knows, 414 00:29:38,440 --> 00:29:45,200 like as as little JavaScript as possible, please exactly, And we look, 415 00:29:45,200 --> 00:29:48,359 we get that feedback consistently and hence the investment over the last twenty four months 416 00:29:48,799 --> 00:29:53,400 around bringing offerings like c sharp mark up to the table. The other the 417 00:29:53,519 --> 00:29:57,079 really one development that we've been spending a lot of time on is there is 418 00:29:57,119 --> 00:30:03,400 that gap between where designers finish and where developers pick up. And so we've 419 00:30:03,440 --> 00:30:07,480 got a component that actually lives within Figma and allows you to essentially export not 420 00:30:07,599 --> 00:30:11,039 just down but also cea sharp markups. So if you want to live in 421 00:30:11,039 --> 00:30:15,200 the sea sharp world, you can just explore your design into Seashell markup, 422 00:30:15,480 --> 00:30:18,400 drop it into your app, and off you go. And so that's we 423 00:30:18,480 --> 00:30:22,400 see that as quite an important tool in breaking down that barrier between you know, 424 00:30:23,240 --> 00:30:29,000 the cognitive loss that gets that happened between designers and where they were thinking 425 00:30:29,039 --> 00:30:32,559 about how things should look and stuff like that, and the way you developers 426 00:30:32,599 --> 00:30:37,960 tend to put things together, which we've won't be there right well, and 427 00:30:38,599 --> 00:30:41,640 I appreciate you bringing up Figma because a couple of years ago it was a 428 00:30:41,759 --> 00:30:47,640 beloved tools like this is the way, and then Adobe showed up and we 429 00:30:47,759 --> 00:30:49,559 all kind of held our brows. It's like, well, that's where good 430 00:30:49,599 --> 00:30:55,480 software goes to die. And now they're not buying it, Like I feel 431 00:30:55,480 --> 00:30:57,599 like we're going to have a Figma renaissance. Because the deal failed, they 432 00:30:57,599 --> 00:31:02,680 had to pay they had to pay a billion bucks as a saddle because they 433 00:31:02,680 --> 00:31:04,240 couldn't buy it. So, Okay, I don't know what's going to happen 434 00:31:04,279 --> 00:31:07,079 to Figma now, but if I was a designer, there's there's a lot 435 00:31:07,119 --> 00:31:11,240 of stuff. I'm partying like, that's such great news. Yeah, there's 436 00:31:11,240 --> 00:31:14,599 a lots of having in the people world. They've got, you know, 437 00:31:14,720 --> 00:31:19,160 a new dev mode and then again they've they've identified that the one of their 438 00:31:19,200 --> 00:31:23,960 markets is this, you know, ability for designers to create this app experience, 439 00:31:25,079 --> 00:31:27,400 not just single pages and web pages and stuff like that, the whole 440 00:31:27,400 --> 00:31:33,000 app experiences and then be able to pull out the resources and the assets from 441 00:31:33,039 --> 00:31:37,599 that in a way that it's consumable for developers. And you hit only the 442 00:31:37,720 --> 00:31:40,599 key point here, which is how many times is a designer finished with a 443 00:31:40,640 --> 00:31:42,359 design? Hey, the devs and they're looking to go, well, we're 444 00:31:42,400 --> 00:31:48,519 not making that just so detached from the tool set I've got and I think 445 00:31:48,559 --> 00:31:53,039 Thing was aware of the software development of life cycle. Obviously they build their 446 00:31:53,039 --> 00:31:56,640 own tool but they're aware of it at a at a general level because they're 447 00:31:56,680 --> 00:32:00,039 not just investing in the tools within Figma, they're all working on things like 448 00:32:00,079 --> 00:32:06,160 design systems and so essentially what that means is that they're making it so that 449 00:32:06,200 --> 00:32:10,000 you can export parts of Figma as assets, so whether those be you know, 450 00:32:10,039 --> 00:32:15,359 your color assets, your style assets, your font assets in a way 451 00:32:15,440 --> 00:32:17,920 that can be consumed into things like your cee iPods, right right, So 452 00:32:19,319 --> 00:32:22,480 you know that they're aware and they're starting to think along the same lines as 453 00:32:22,480 --> 00:32:27,599 developers have beat for years, and so UN is trying to leverage that and 454 00:32:27,640 --> 00:32:31,119 recognize that we need to be part of that pipeline. There's definitely that moment 455 00:32:31,240 --> 00:32:39,519 between the first designer paths that gets approved and the devs successfully rendering that page. 456 00:32:39,680 --> 00:32:45,359 It's almost an interim step, like until we convert their design language into 457 00:32:45,400 --> 00:32:49,680 our design language, you can't really get rolling. You know that I was 458 00:32:49,720 --> 00:32:53,119 introduced to Figma just as an assign a couple of years ago, and the 459 00:32:53,720 --> 00:32:58,079 customer wanted me to, you know, do the design and Figma and then 460 00:32:58,200 --> 00:33:04,480 copy the you know, the the CSS into my project and that was fine. 461 00:33:04,559 --> 00:33:07,920 And I don't know if it does this now, but back then there 462 00:33:07,039 --> 00:33:12,440 was no responsiveness and that you know, you put a you get some design 463 00:33:12,519 --> 00:33:15,720 and all that stuff and I copy it and you know, it's static, 464 00:33:16,240 --> 00:33:21,240 it doesn't move with the page. Which seemed to me like really stupid. 465 00:33:21,680 --> 00:33:24,160 I don't know if that feature is there now, but you know, it's 466 00:33:24,160 --> 00:33:28,640 the little details like that to drive you nuts. Yeah, so I think 467 00:33:28,720 --> 00:33:31,279 Thigma has definitely come a long way on that, and definitely a lot of 468 00:33:31,279 --> 00:33:37,000 their components and I'm definitely no wizard here, but definitely their components now understand 469 00:33:37,079 --> 00:33:40,720 a little bit of responsive side. It's not to the extent of knowing between 470 00:33:40,839 --> 00:33:45,880 like portrait and landscape, but they know how things like should expand and things 471 00:33:45,920 --> 00:33:47,240 like that. So you know, yeah, that's good. It was a 472 00:33:47,240 --> 00:33:52,920 couple of years ago, and I'm certainly no expert in CSS. Well. 473 00:33:52,000 --> 00:33:55,920 Yeah, and responsive design is hard at the best of times, much less 474 00:33:57,240 --> 00:34:01,640 cross platform responsive design, absolutely, yeah, and you know that that is 475 00:34:01,680 --> 00:34:06,559 one of the common problems that surfaces all the time, and will continue to 476 00:34:06,640 --> 00:34:10,480 invest in better controls and better widgets to help developers deal with that. And 477 00:34:10,679 --> 00:34:15,679 you know, we see various break points, particularly on desktop or web, 478 00:34:15,960 --> 00:34:19,280 where you go from a sort of a more portrain oriented, you know, 479 00:34:19,519 --> 00:34:21,880 layout where you might have a pit in to the left and you want to 480 00:34:21,960 --> 00:34:24,760 kind of looking like a list, and then when you navigate it should show 481 00:34:24,800 --> 00:34:30,440 you the details almost on a new page versus a more landscape or desktop experience 482 00:34:30,440 --> 00:34:35,559 where you typically have them side by side, and you know, they should 483 00:34:35,599 --> 00:34:37,239 all work within an app and it should be consistent, and then things like 484 00:34:37,280 --> 00:34:40,000 deep linking should work so that you could navigate to it on the web. 485 00:34:40,639 --> 00:34:45,559 So you know, it poses very interesting challenges and you know, those are 486 00:34:45,599 --> 00:34:50,679 the types of things where you know, our investment into extensions allows for things 487 00:34:50,719 --> 00:34:54,159 like deep linking and for resolvable addresses and stuff like that comes into the play 488 00:34:54,440 --> 00:34:58,639 in toolkit. We have things like responsive views and stuff like that that will 489 00:34:58,639 --> 00:35:02,079 help one, you know, deal with having different visual states essentially for that 490 00:35:02,159 --> 00:35:06,760 sort of portrayed look and the landscape look. And this gets back to that 491 00:35:06,840 --> 00:35:08,719 mapping stage. Just like now I pick up the Uno toolkit, I've got 492 00:35:08,719 --> 00:35:13,239 the output from Figma, and I'm trying to figure out how to map it 493 00:35:13,320 --> 00:35:15,440 under the toolkit to say, well, this is what they wanted in Figma. 494 00:35:15,480 --> 00:35:20,079 When it scales, how do we make sure that Uno does that for 495 00:35:20,119 --> 00:35:22,320 it? Yeah, and that's where the Figma plugin comes in. Okay, 496 00:35:22,760 --> 00:35:28,679 And so you know that plugin that sits within Figma. One of the really 497 00:35:28,719 --> 00:35:31,320 cool things about it is that there's actually a rendering that actually happens within the 498 00:35:31,360 --> 00:35:36,480 plug in and that's actually running the web or then't version of UNO, so 499 00:35:36,519 --> 00:35:40,079 it actually shows you what it's going to look like with your like basically takes 500 00:35:40,079 --> 00:35:45,559 your design, converts it to Zammle behind the scenes, runs it so that 501 00:35:45,599 --> 00:35:47,119 it actually shows you what it's going to look like and how it's going to 502 00:35:47,199 --> 00:35:51,840 behave when you click in the textbox and stuff like that. So it's pretty 503 00:35:51,840 --> 00:35:53,599 incredible that the plugin is capable of. And then of course you can then 504 00:35:53,920 --> 00:35:59,239 take that and actually drop it into your running app, like you go to 505 00:35:59,280 --> 00:36:01,280 the Zamble file, drop it in whilst your apps running, and really will 506 00:36:01,280 --> 00:36:06,199 actually show it and your running app. Nice. So it's all the wonders 507 00:36:06,519 --> 00:36:09,480 of the Microsoft ecosystem. Hot real load of somebody that came out of Microsoft. 508 00:36:10,079 --> 00:36:14,199 That the UNER platform is basically built part of makes world. Yeah, 509 00:36:14,280 --> 00:36:16,440 and live debugging too, right, like is all part of that effect. 510 00:36:16,960 --> 00:36:22,119 So I could be tweaking this. I mean, I'm hoping the plug is 511 00:36:22,159 --> 00:36:25,239 perfect, but I imagine I have to do some stuff and then look across 512 00:36:25,639 --> 00:36:30,199 the different platform renders too, like fire up the woll the stimulators. Yeah, 513 00:36:30,239 --> 00:36:34,960 correct, and you know there, We don't claim that there's never any 514 00:36:36,199 --> 00:36:38,599 discrepancies between different platforms, So there's always a need to run it up on 515 00:36:38,639 --> 00:36:42,920 each platform, the planet ship being verifying that it's going to that it is 516 00:36:42,960 --> 00:36:46,639 looking and behaving exactly how you want it, because yure scaling may work differently 517 00:36:46,679 --> 00:36:51,320 on different with that one the break points between say portraited and landscape may not 518 00:36:51,400 --> 00:36:54,440 be the same, or you may want to tweak it based on feedback from 519 00:36:54,440 --> 00:37:01,440 different platforms. So definitely consistencies there. One of the interesting things that we 520 00:37:01,480 --> 00:37:07,039 added to the Wizard and so I'll talk about that in a second, but 521 00:37:07,199 --> 00:37:12,119 we added the ability for it to generate your CI pipeline. And so one 522 00:37:12,119 --> 00:37:15,280 of the things we consistency see from developers them struggling at the other end of 523 00:37:15,360 --> 00:37:19,800 the build process is that, Hey, I've got my app that I've spent 524 00:37:19,880 --> 00:37:22,760 time building. How do I ship it? How do I make sure that 525 00:37:23,000 --> 00:37:25,119 you know when I'm making changes to it, I don't break it? How 526 00:37:25,159 --> 00:37:30,599 do I run tests and unit uy tests and things like that. So out 527 00:37:30,639 --> 00:37:32,159 of the Blox, we give you the ability to have a you know, 528 00:37:32,280 --> 00:37:36,800 a CI pipeline that's set up to at least build your application, so you're 529 00:37:36,840 --> 00:37:40,920 already in a winning state there the wizard itself. One of the things we 530 00:37:42,000 --> 00:37:45,039 had trouble with with the whole platform is that we have all of these different 531 00:37:45,039 --> 00:37:49,280 bits and pieces. Unless you've spent time reading through the documentation, you wouldn't 532 00:37:49,280 --> 00:37:52,239 know existed. You know, there was a very good template that I'll add 533 00:37:52,280 --> 00:37:54,519 you to get started with an Uto app, but it kind of left everything 534 00:37:54,519 --> 00:37:58,719 else to you. And so one of the things we invested in, you 535 00:37:58,760 --> 00:38:01,400 know, in the last twelve months that is a wizard that brings in a 536 00:38:01,440 --> 00:38:06,360 good proportion of the capability of the whole platform. And so you know, 537 00:38:06,400 --> 00:38:09,119 there's ten or eleven screens that you can go through and customize everything from. 538 00:38:09,320 --> 00:38:14,079 You know what target platforms you want to use all the way through to do 539 00:38:14,159 --> 00:38:16,480 I want authentication and if so, do I want to write it myself with 540 00:38:16,559 --> 00:38:22,000 custom worth or do I want to use m cell and so, And the 541 00:38:22,039 --> 00:38:23,760 CI pipelines are there as well, so you can pick between it asure and 542 00:38:23,800 --> 00:38:29,400 get other actions as your pipeline of choice. I'm sure there's others that people 543 00:38:29,400 --> 00:38:32,079 want those then will consider adding those as well. But the idea is that 544 00:38:32,159 --> 00:38:37,360 when you file a new project, you get a good percentage of the way 545 00:38:37,440 --> 00:38:40,679 you want with all of the you know, most of the almost best practice 546 00:38:40,760 --> 00:38:45,639 or guidance that we can do to get you into that winning state. So 547 00:38:45,719 --> 00:38:49,320 all you do is push it up to your repository and at least you'll have 548 00:38:49,559 --> 00:38:53,800 a positive experience with a build that you know works. Because people's integration pipelines 549 00:38:53,800 --> 00:38:58,159 are pretty personal too, right, so I guess it's very challenge to have 550 00:38:58,280 --> 00:39:00,760 if you're going to generate part of that pipeline, is it match with the 551 00:39:00,800 --> 00:39:04,639 way we're doing things? Yeah? Sure, And look right now, what 552 00:39:05,000 --> 00:39:07,079 the Wizard generates is very much a starting point, so we make sure that 553 00:39:07,119 --> 00:39:12,840 you're set up to do a build of the whole solution. We are working 554 00:39:12,840 --> 00:39:15,519 on extensions there that will help you run the at least the tests and the 555 00:39:15,639 --> 00:39:21,119 UI tests because those are actually quite difficult to particularly the UI test to get 556 00:39:21,199 --> 00:39:28,280 running in a CI pipeline. And then the additional parts that well, you 557 00:39:28,280 --> 00:39:30,679 know, considering down the line, is that the support for things like app 558 00:39:30,719 --> 00:39:35,679 Center and actually pushing to the store, because those are again where where a 559 00:39:35,760 --> 00:39:38,000 lot of developers really struggle. Sure, yeah, so just giving them a 560 00:39:38,039 --> 00:39:40,920 template to go get get downe the right path is great. I mean I 561 00:39:42,280 --> 00:39:46,639 appreciate that you're doing this devop stuff for your platform so that we have a 562 00:39:46,679 --> 00:39:50,480 good experience with your platform. But if you can make us better elsewhere, 563 00:39:50,599 --> 00:39:57,320 Nick, I'm all over that because Australia. The nice thing and you should 564 00:39:57,360 --> 00:40:01,519 work mostly is that because we're all the dot ecosystem, A lot of that 565 00:40:01,559 --> 00:40:07,000 stuff so dot net built. You know, you can point that at an 566 00:40:07,360 --> 00:40:10,880 app, but you could also point it at an other technology after it should 567 00:40:10,920 --> 00:40:15,199 build, and so a lot of those stages like pointing to the store or 568 00:40:15,239 --> 00:40:19,599 pointing to app Center and things like that, those are work for other dot 569 00:40:19,679 --> 00:40:22,639 net based applications as well. It's excellent. We haven't talked much about app 570 00:40:22,679 --> 00:40:24,920 Center because it's just one of those things you should use. I mean, 571 00:40:24,960 --> 00:40:29,239 this is like the remnants of the old Hockey app plus a bunch of other 572 00:40:29,360 --> 00:40:34,199 Azure stuff. Yeah, and it's one of those things that Microsoft acquiet and 573 00:40:34,320 --> 00:40:39,440 brought together and actually started elevating. And I've always viewed it as I had 574 00:40:39,480 --> 00:40:45,920 some really winning features. So the simplification of the bill process and encouraging developers 575 00:40:45,960 --> 00:40:50,760 to actually have that kind of approach to the build and test the ability to 576 00:40:50,840 --> 00:40:53,760 run UI tests and device tests and stuff like that was really cool, and 577 00:40:54,280 --> 00:40:59,559 the deployment side of things for testing was one of the killer features of app 578 00:40:59,599 --> 00:41:05,599 Center. And so yeah, definitely, we're highly encouraged developers to push the 579 00:41:05,639 --> 00:41:08,719 app Center to provide that distribution. But it's not to say that you can't 580 00:41:09,159 --> 00:41:12,800 do it without app Center. So you can push to you know, the 581 00:41:13,119 --> 00:41:17,800 you know, the Android Beta store and the iOS using the essentially test flight 582 00:41:19,320 --> 00:41:25,119 to actually push out the d Bible pre built versions. But app Center definitely 583 00:41:25,199 --> 00:41:29,360 made those problems easier to deal with. Well, I mean you mean testl 584 00:41:29,400 --> 00:41:32,719 like for ioas are you meaning testlate for iOS? Test flight? Yeah? 585 00:41:32,960 --> 00:41:37,079 Yeah, what's the Android equivalent? I can't remember. Well, they have 586 00:41:37,159 --> 00:41:40,239 a beta version of their store, so you basically submit to the store and 587 00:41:40,320 --> 00:41:44,159 then you market it as beta and it allows you to do that kind of 588 00:41:44,239 --> 00:41:47,559 same process. Oh your Android does Yeah, Okay, so you're talking about 589 00:41:47,719 --> 00:41:52,440 test flight, which is Apple's way to do beta deploys. Yeah, and 590 00:41:52,639 --> 00:41:55,719 so you know, each of the stores, so Apple will have a way 591 00:41:55,760 --> 00:42:02,119 of doing essentially beta deploys. The Android store has away, and the Microsoft 592 00:42:02,159 --> 00:42:07,119 Store actually has a mechanism for doing that as well, so flighting essentially pre 593 00:42:07,360 --> 00:42:09,800 released versions of their apps, So all all of the platforms have that, 594 00:42:09,880 --> 00:42:13,800 and obviously in the web you can point to a staging environment and you know 595 00:42:13,880 --> 00:42:20,119 lock it down, et cetera. So it's definitely a good mechanism to follow 596 00:42:20,159 --> 00:42:22,960 through with you apps as they go into that sort of pre release of testing 597 00:42:23,039 --> 00:42:29,239 phase is to make them available for a select group of audience. And you 598 00:42:29,320 --> 00:42:31,760 know, internally in we actually make use of those processes to make sure that 599 00:42:31,880 --> 00:42:38,519 we have you know, canary builds available for our internal testing. And just 600 00:42:38,719 --> 00:42:43,280 touching on that, one of the things that we do try to encourage for 601 00:42:43,480 --> 00:42:46,000 all of our customers is so logo this thing that we talk about it is 602 00:42:46,039 --> 00:42:51,239 being canary builds, and what we mean by that is basically taking your existing 603 00:42:51,320 --> 00:42:55,280 app that you're currently working on and testing forcibly, updating it to all of 604 00:42:55,400 --> 00:43:00,239 the latest versions of the of all your packages, because this are something that 605 00:43:00,320 --> 00:43:06,880 developers typically don't do frequently enough, and then running it through your CI pipeline 606 00:43:06,880 --> 00:43:08,800 to make sure it builds, it runs all your tests, and it hasn't 607 00:43:08,840 --> 00:43:14,679 broken anything. The advantage there is that as soon as one of your dependencies 608 00:43:14,920 --> 00:43:19,360 upgrades to a new version, you're going to be aware that it's now breaking 609 00:43:19,480 --> 00:43:22,760 something and that you will not necessarily have to fix it right now, but 610 00:43:22,840 --> 00:43:25,159 you'll know that you need to address it in the upcoming versions. Because what 611 00:43:25,280 --> 00:43:30,880 we typically see time and time again, and this is true for Core itself, 612 00:43:30,280 --> 00:43:35,519 is that developers don't upgraad because something has broken, and then they end 613 00:43:35,639 --> 00:43:38,239 up three versions behind, and now you're really in trouble. Yeah, and 614 00:43:38,480 --> 00:43:43,760 you know we've stopped shipping updates to that version, so you know you really 615 00:43:43,840 --> 00:43:46,480 need to update. And now it's a really painful process. And so by 616 00:43:46,599 --> 00:43:51,360 encouraging developers to have canary builders that they might run once a day or once 617 00:43:51,400 --> 00:43:57,760 a week to see what packages have changed, it gives them early warning as 618 00:43:57,800 --> 00:44:00,960 to when things will be when they need to modify their code. Yeah, 619 00:44:00,960 --> 00:44:04,519 you only have to miss a couple of sprints, you know, well you 620 00:44:04,639 --> 00:44:07,719 try, Well, we'll fix that later. Let's go finish these other features, 621 00:44:07,320 --> 00:44:09,880 and then it misses around or two, and now it's a year. 622 00:44:10,159 --> 00:44:13,840 I mean, I think we're incredibly lucky that, you know, the upgrade 623 00:44:13,880 --> 00:44:17,480 cycle from you know, NET sixth and at seventh and at eight hasn't typically 624 00:44:17,599 --> 00:44:22,000 required significant rework. In fact, the only work that you typically see is 625 00:44:22,039 --> 00:44:28,880 things like the analyzers improve and they're now throw more warnings because the code analysis 626 00:44:29,000 --> 00:44:30,079 is better, and they can say, okay, well you're going to get 627 00:44:30,079 --> 00:44:35,199 performance gained if you do this over this, And so typically what you're going 628 00:44:35,280 --> 00:44:37,519 to have to do is go through and address those and a lot of our 629 00:44:37,559 --> 00:44:40,679 projects we typically have them, you know, warning setters error, so that 630 00:44:40,800 --> 00:44:45,159 we're forced to go and fix them. Yeah, and that's great right up 631 00:44:45,199 --> 00:44:47,880 until you do get one of the updates and now there's a thousand fricking warnings. 632 00:44:49,199 --> 00:44:52,480 Yeah, but you know, warnings could just be warnings. Yeah. 633 00:44:52,400 --> 00:44:57,079 Luckily a lot of those ones that generate a thousand warnings are very consistent, 634 00:44:57,519 --> 00:45:00,440 Yeah, like their search and replaceable. Yeah, and quite often we'll point 635 00:45:00,519 --> 00:45:02,880 to you an era of your code where you may be able to do a 636 00:45:02,960 --> 00:45:07,159 global refactor beyond what they're talking so you know, you might have missed the 637 00:45:07,239 --> 00:45:12,159 fact that you're reusing the same bit of code three times or something. So 638 00:45:12,360 --> 00:45:16,440 yeah, yeah, I mean, I'm with you, it's just I also 639 00:45:16,559 --> 00:45:21,039 needed to ship features, right, Like, there's just this that's the constant 640 00:45:21,159 --> 00:45:24,000 battle between he there's a better way to do this versus Yeah, but they 641 00:45:24,079 --> 00:45:29,119 really need this thing out this month. Yeah, And look that's why canaris 642 00:45:29,119 --> 00:45:31,519 are great because they give you that really early warning you can start to factor 643 00:45:31,960 --> 00:45:36,519 any rework and get them on the board. Yeah, exactly, And so 644 00:45:36,639 --> 00:45:39,199 it doesn't become this, Hey we've got to dedicate three sprints to just catching 645 00:45:39,280 --> 00:45:44,920 up. Yeah, I'd rather than get behind on it. What is the 646 00:45:45,119 --> 00:45:49,320 testing approach for you know, you hinted at it in the papeline. Yeah, 647 00:45:49,400 --> 00:45:52,559 So so we do a couple of different testing and some of these come 648 00:45:52,639 --> 00:45:58,440 from our guidance around what we do internally, so where possible. For a 649 00:45:58,480 --> 00:46:00,440 lot of your business logic, unit tests are still the way to go. 650 00:46:00,760 --> 00:46:04,719 So you know, if you have services that make calls and you have view 651 00:46:04,800 --> 00:46:07,039 models and stuff like that, we can you still want to be running unit 652 00:46:07,119 --> 00:46:13,599 test to verify you know, the logic of your application is sound. But 653 00:46:14,079 --> 00:46:16,559 you know where most of the testing and mobile apps goes is in the UI 654 00:46:16,679 --> 00:46:20,760 side of things and making sure that the flow works and so that for that 655 00:46:20,960 --> 00:46:23,719 we have we do have UI tests. So essentially this is running the app, 656 00:46:24,800 --> 00:46:29,719 stepping through various parts of the app and verifying conditions so it may be 657 00:46:30,239 --> 00:46:34,360 verifying that snapshop one page the next hasn't changed, but one iteration of the 658 00:46:34,360 --> 00:46:37,239 built and one next that hasn't changed. Are you using verify same in craps 659 00:46:37,280 --> 00:46:42,920 tool. We don't use it internally. I would recommend using it. It's 660 00:46:43,000 --> 00:46:46,599 an absolutely awesome tool. And so you know again, you know, doing 661 00:46:46,639 --> 00:46:51,360 comparison for screenshots and stuff like that is absolutely fantastic. I know, we 662 00:46:51,800 --> 00:46:52,920 we had the good forces you to talk to same crap and you were an 663 00:46:52,960 --> 00:46:55,760 instant believer, Carl as I recall, like you've used it ever since. 664 00:46:57,000 --> 00:47:00,719 Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, very cool stuff. Yeah that sign crops 665 00:47:00,800 --> 00:47:04,920 out and developed some amazing tools over the time and verifies one of them. 666 00:47:05,360 --> 00:47:10,760 He's one of you. Yeah. Well, and that's I mean, and 667 00:47:10,840 --> 00:47:15,840 I brought that whole line of thinking up, Nick, because testing uys is 668 00:47:15,960 --> 00:47:19,239 hard. It's just you know, I love a unit test. That's because 669 00:47:19,280 --> 00:47:22,320 I have a clear input and output it if they don't match, say something 670 00:47:22,719 --> 00:47:27,880 especially native uy, right, because you're generally comparing pixels sometimes, aren't you. 671 00:47:28,079 --> 00:47:30,239 Yeah. Well, if you've ever taken it, stopped in and taken 672 00:47:30,280 --> 00:47:35,239 a look at the platform pipeline, it takes about four hours to run because 673 00:47:35,440 --> 00:47:37,599 you know, we're running UY tests and that's doing a lot of stuff in 674 00:47:37,679 --> 00:47:42,480 parallel, like we run UY test on the Highways Android where you know the 675 00:47:43,000 --> 00:47:45,760 works for the court framework and that, and that gives us a lot of 676 00:47:45,840 --> 00:47:50,920 confidence where we ship new versions. Yeah, that the core is very well 677 00:47:51,000 --> 00:47:53,360 tested. That's great. It's good to know well and and it speaks to 678 00:47:53,400 --> 00:47:57,000 you. You know, I'm realizing, like we've been talking about UNO for 679 00:47:57,280 --> 00:48:00,079 five six years now, Like there's a reason you guys are still out there. 680 00:48:00,119 --> 00:48:04,039 You've been you've transformed a couple of times. You know, once upon 681 00:48:04,079 --> 00:48:08,039 a time you were the WUP guys, but that's all changed and you had 682 00:48:08,039 --> 00:48:13,079 that w A hook the early days before it was cool, that's right. 683 00:48:13,480 --> 00:48:16,280 Yeah. So the u WP things interesting because even today, if you're going 684 00:48:16,320 --> 00:48:19,760 to build an u WP app and you want to take a cross platform you 685 00:48:19,840 --> 00:48:22,760 can still use the tool set to do that. We still fully support you 686 00:48:22,920 --> 00:48:24,960 WP. And you might think, well, why would you do that if 687 00:48:24,960 --> 00:48:29,760 you're supporting you know when you I The reason being is that there are still 688 00:48:29,800 --> 00:48:34,119 some platforms, name the Xbox where you have to build WP and so you 689 00:48:34,199 --> 00:48:37,639 know those scenarios are still out there. We still have customers who and people 690 00:48:37,679 --> 00:48:42,519 out there with UWP apps that want to take the cross platform or want to 691 00:48:42,599 --> 00:48:45,159 take parts of their app cross platform. Sure, and it may have some 692 00:48:45,440 --> 00:48:50,440 and they're looking at or I rewrite, right, It's like given that choice, 693 00:48:50,480 --> 00:48:52,480 it's like we committed UWP back in the day. We've got this stuff, 694 00:48:52,559 --> 00:48:57,440 we have these we're concerned about what Microsoft's do with YOUWP or not doing, 695 00:48:57,480 --> 00:49:00,960 as the case may be. Uh and and want to go to the 696 00:49:00,000 --> 00:49:02,320 cross plat port and you guys can pick a lot of that up. Yeah, 697 00:49:02,519 --> 00:49:06,039 just to be clear, when you're talking about Xbox apps, you're really 698 00:49:06,079 --> 00:49:09,119 talking about like, you know, forms apps if you will, on Xbox, 699 00:49:09,199 --> 00:49:14,360 not games, not graphics correct. Yeah. Yeah, And you know 700 00:49:14,440 --> 00:49:17,320 there was a time when Microsoft wanted Xbox to be center of the living room 701 00:49:17,800 --> 00:49:22,039 and so you know they did do a very big push for you know, 702 00:49:22,119 --> 00:49:25,039 app developers to come on board, and UWP was that platform. I mean, 703 00:49:25,079 --> 00:49:30,960 there there was a great vision about UWP being you know, this capability 704 00:49:30,000 --> 00:49:35,159 of running everywhere, and some of that still exists today. There's some hints 705 00:49:35,199 --> 00:49:37,840 that they're going to make another stab at it too, you know, like 706 00:49:37,159 --> 00:49:46,239 XN a version the just just a sense that the team is reorganizing, like 707 00:49:46,320 --> 00:49:51,119 there's there seems to be something going on there that we're living on. You 708 00:49:51,199 --> 00:49:52,679 know. I spent some time over on the Windows Weekly side too, and 709 00:49:53,480 --> 00:49:57,880 this has been a recurring threat. It's like there's something going on over you. 710 00:49:58,000 --> 00:50:00,800 I wonder if that'll trickle over to hollow Lands. Yeah. So the 711 00:50:00,880 --> 00:50:04,159 interesting thing is if you we've been watching the whin UI, the winn app 712 00:50:04,239 --> 00:50:07,400 SDK team over the last couple of years, it feels like they really haven't 713 00:50:07,440 --> 00:50:12,199 been moving very fast. No, but they're doing a lot of investment, 714 00:50:12,239 --> 00:50:15,079 which is actually one of the very first times we've seen this with one of 715 00:50:15,119 --> 00:50:21,440 their UI frameworks internally to use it for first party apps, so things like 716 00:50:21,519 --> 00:50:24,199 file Explorer, you know, probably one of the most used apps on Windows 717 00:50:24,440 --> 00:50:28,880 right. New version of that's being done in winn app is DK. Yeah, 718 00:50:29,280 --> 00:50:31,039 and that's smart, right, Like we like it when Microsoft eats the 719 00:50:31,119 --> 00:50:36,880 dog food a you know, it'll never go away, Yeah, exactly, 720 00:50:36,960 --> 00:50:43,639 and b it they beat their own teams up, Like WPF was pretty much 721 00:50:43,760 --> 00:50:46,599 unusable until the studio team used it, yeah, back in twenty ten. 722 00:50:46,800 --> 00:50:52,920 Like the difference between WP two and WP four because numbers are hard. Was 723 00:50:53,599 --> 00:50:57,960 the studio team, and it implemented inside of studio. It had problems, 724 00:50:58,000 --> 00:51:01,320 but they'd also kick the snart. Yeah yeah, I remember those days, 725 00:51:01,400 --> 00:51:07,719 how fondly. Just interesting on that. One of the other sort of areas 726 00:51:07,760 --> 00:51:10,760 where we see customers coming to the platform are from you know, companies that 727 00:51:10,840 --> 00:51:15,639 have invested in WPF and so one of the really neat things that you can 728 00:51:15,719 --> 00:51:21,480 do with there is to start building new components with the UNO on your existing 729 00:51:22,639 --> 00:51:25,480 WPF app. So we have the ability to integrate with an existing app, 730 00:51:27,039 --> 00:51:30,360 run the UNO parts, and that gives you the ability to take parts of 731 00:51:30,440 --> 00:51:34,679 your app cross platform. And you know, obviously probably wouldn't be necessarily too 732 00:51:34,760 --> 00:51:37,239 much on the desktop, but makes a lot of sense for iOS and androids 733 00:51:37,239 --> 00:51:40,320 to take part of your app cross platform. So for example, maybe a 734 00:51:40,400 --> 00:51:45,079 new data capture part. You can really use all of your business logic that 735 00:51:45,119 --> 00:51:46,920 you already have, all of your service calls, all of that stuff, 736 00:51:47,400 --> 00:51:52,719 build the parts that you need for your mobile data capture part in UNO, 737 00:51:52,519 --> 00:51:55,159 and all of a sudden you haven't had to rebuild your app, just so 738 00:51:55,280 --> 00:51:59,400 you can take a cross platform. Right, So you've got a WPF app 739 00:51:59,440 --> 00:52:01,159 and at one point you were kind of looking at Zamma informs and like, 740 00:52:01,320 --> 00:52:05,440 is this gonna work for me? Then now it's become Maui, and you're 741 00:52:05,440 --> 00:52:08,119 still wonder if it's going to work for you. And we're not even gonna 742 00:52:08,119 --> 00:52:13,079 say so. We're like, oh down ha, yes, we all we 743 00:52:13,159 --> 00:52:16,039 all love that. But they I mean, but what I hear you describing 744 00:52:16,119 --> 00:52:19,920 is essentially saying, hey, I can add into this a couple of Uno 745 00:52:20,000 --> 00:52:23,000 components and we have this piece of this larger w p F app that now 746 00:52:23,079 --> 00:52:30,440 runs on iOS and Android. Yeah. Absolutely, what is the mac os 747 00:52:30,920 --> 00:52:35,119 story for Uno? So the mac Os is mac Catalyst, so basically the 748 00:52:35,320 --> 00:52:39,360 the the the mac Light kind of work version. It's kind of like that 749 00:52:39,639 --> 00:52:44,760 that sort of the technology that came from iOS land went through iPad and came 750 00:52:44,840 --> 00:52:47,840 over on Catalyst. But you know, for for the vast majority of apps, 751 00:52:47,880 --> 00:52:51,880 that is a great technology to use. Do we have access to native 752 00:52:52,679 --> 00:52:57,760 platform tools there it is more of a sandbox device than what you get with 753 00:52:57,840 --> 00:53:00,880 the mac os app. So same as MAUI, basically correct, and and 754 00:53:00,960 --> 00:53:06,440 a lot of this is driven by the fact that the Microsoft support for mac 755 00:53:06,480 --> 00:53:12,199 Os as a you know, as a as an alternative to mac Catalyst has 756 00:53:12,280 --> 00:53:15,280 not had the same amount of attention that the mac caitalyists got courtesy of their 757 00:53:15,320 --> 00:53:20,320 being driven by the Maui team. So yeah, so you know that that's 758 00:53:20,440 --> 00:53:23,079 kind of where we are in that sort of Microsoft ecosystem running on mac scenario. 759 00:53:24,840 --> 00:53:29,920 Yeah. I don't think there's a whole lot of Mac os desktop development 760 00:53:30,000 --> 00:53:34,360 going on except for like your you know, your adobees and your music and 761 00:53:34,599 --> 00:53:37,320 video editing and all that stuff, and that's all pretty neative. It's not 762 00:53:37,679 --> 00:53:43,199 very needative and very close to the metal. Yeah, but but there's there's 763 00:53:43,239 --> 00:53:45,239 definitely an opportunity there, particularly, I mean if you if you do have 764 00:53:45,320 --> 00:53:50,840 a lot of customers in the iOS space Catalysts and being able to have that 765 00:53:50,960 --> 00:53:54,280 same level of information available on the on the Mac Sense and the and the 766 00:53:54,400 --> 00:53:59,079 ability to that you basically get it for free with like in the sense of 767 00:53:59,239 --> 00:54:04,159 you know you're building for all these other platforms. You know you've got desktop 768 00:54:04,159 --> 00:54:07,280 support through Windows, it's going to look very similar on Mac os through Catalyst. 769 00:54:07,400 --> 00:54:09,760 Yeah, Yeah, exactly, awesome, very cool. So neck, 770 00:54:09,840 --> 00:54:14,440 what's next for you? What's in your inbox? So the big news is 771 00:54:14,519 --> 00:54:20,079 that we'll continue to invest in that, in that sort of ecosystem, so 772 00:54:20,320 --> 00:54:24,960 life like beginning to end of the developer life cycles, so continue to invest 773 00:54:25,000 --> 00:54:30,599 in the Wizard. We're likely to see some some updates to improve productivity in 774 00:54:30,679 --> 00:54:34,760 terms of developers and the areas that developers really struggle with in terms of building 775 00:54:34,840 --> 00:54:37,840 and deploying apps, and that cycle will continue to go this year. And 776 00:54:37,960 --> 00:54:42,880 that that is hansol of what the platform is about, you know, And 777 00:54:43,039 --> 00:54:45,400 that's not to say that we're continue to not continue to invest in the core. 778 00:54:46,000 --> 00:54:49,800 There is part of the team that's devoted to that, so you know, 779 00:54:49,920 --> 00:54:52,599 performance is still front of mind. There's still a lot of updates that 780 00:54:52,679 --> 00:54:59,280 are to come across for various platform pieces. There there's there's there are new 781 00:54:59,360 --> 00:55:05,320 controls that are on the horizon for things like toolkit and extensions. But definitely 782 00:55:05,400 --> 00:55:09,719 that life cycle that's beginning design ending with an app that's produced out of our 783 00:55:09,760 --> 00:55:15,800 platpline into the stores. Trying to improve the productivity for end to end for 784 00:55:15,880 --> 00:55:19,920 developers is where the team's going for this. And I love your green Field 785 00:55:19,960 --> 00:55:22,840 story, but I'm starting to love your brown Field story. I got an 786 00:55:22,840 --> 00:55:25,079 app and I can add you know, in part way through like thank you, 787 00:55:25,239 --> 00:55:28,719 because that's real life. And look, we recognize that as well. 788 00:55:29,679 --> 00:55:34,079 And look, the reality is that just one little extra bit here is the 789 00:55:34,199 --> 00:55:38,480 reality is that you know, not every control manufacturer or vendor is actually building 790 00:55:38,559 --> 00:55:43,960 controls for the Bunau platform. And so what we can do with the Maui 791 00:55:44,000 --> 00:55:47,360 embedding that we've got is the ability to take controls from sinfusion from Tellery and 792 00:55:47,519 --> 00:55:52,320 bring them on to an application. Now, obviously those will only be supported 793 00:55:52,360 --> 00:55:55,119 on the platforms that they support. For Mali, so they choose to support 794 00:55:55,880 --> 00:56:00,239 all of the Marie platforms. I always adroid Catalyst windows. Then you'll get 795 00:56:00,320 --> 00:56:05,280 those on, you know, by embedding those within the inner platform. So 796 00:56:05,440 --> 00:56:08,360 yeah, we totally recognize that that brownfield story where things aren't as neat and 797 00:56:08,480 --> 00:56:13,800 tidy as we'd expect them to be. It's totally every piece of software I've 798 00:56:13,840 --> 00:56:17,119 ever built. That's fine. Yeah, yeah, And just to be perfect 799 00:56:17,159 --> 00:56:22,039 clear, there's an open source project with paid supportive ill that is exactly right, 800 00:56:22,199 --> 00:56:25,239 yep. So it's one hundred percent open source and there is this paid 801 00:56:25,400 --> 00:56:30,559 enterprise support available. That's how you guys stay alive. Absolutely, it pays 802 00:56:30,599 --> 00:56:31,960 the bills. Now I want people to know, right, it's like, 803 00:56:32,039 --> 00:56:36,119 hey, you can take this other's been I like your free support, it's 804 00:56:36,159 --> 00:56:38,199 good, but if you're going to commit your business to this, buy some 805 00:56:38,320 --> 00:56:42,960 support so that you get priority and so you keep a platform you care about 806 00:56:43,000 --> 00:56:45,800 a live Yeah. And look if you if you monitor the GitHub repolagers and 807 00:56:45,800 --> 00:56:51,320 there's a few of them, you'll see that virtually all of them have an 808 00:56:51,480 --> 00:56:54,679 active contributor from the inner platform team. Yes. I also like that you 809 00:56:54,920 --> 00:57:00,239 drive your paid support through issues in GitHub too, so that everybody and if 810 00:57:00,239 --> 00:57:02,480 it's from it, Yeah, absolutely exactly, it's really I mean, you 811 00:57:02,559 --> 00:57:07,400 know, there's a subtext of their algoing conversation for us to dynam Rocks about 812 00:57:07,559 --> 00:57:10,320 how we make sustainable open source, and you guys are on my list of 813 00:57:10,400 --> 00:57:14,760 people doing it right, like showing a model that works. Yeah. Look, 814 00:57:14,880 --> 00:57:20,960 it's just sustainable open source is a challenge and there's no one model that's 815 00:57:20,960 --> 00:57:23,760 going to fit everyone. I think that there was there was a view that 816 00:57:23,880 --> 00:57:28,599 things like you know, sponsorship and things like that might be an answer, 817 00:57:29,199 --> 00:57:31,199 but I think that people are walking away from that because you know, the 818 00:57:31,320 --> 00:57:37,559 reality is that the people who who should be paying, which typically the companies 819 00:57:37,880 --> 00:57:40,880 are not the ones who are typically fronting the money and offers. There's developers 820 00:57:40,920 --> 00:57:45,519 who recognize the hard work that you know, so many contributors put in that 821 00:57:45,639 --> 00:57:50,119 are contributing you know, a dollar here or ten dollars there, you know, 822 00:57:51,440 --> 00:57:54,639 in supporting. Yeah, that's that cancer staining company now, and I 823 00:57:54,760 --> 00:57:58,039 want to fix that first part that I could. I agree with you is 824 00:57:58,079 --> 00:58:01,519 not happening. But I also preciate that there are business models out there that 825 00:58:01,599 --> 00:58:05,199 work, that have their challenges. I just mean, you know, I 826 00:58:05,280 --> 00:58:07,880 wish we could be better, but we'll all try and do the right thing. 827 00:58:07,320 --> 00:58:10,880 The schew Nick, it's been a pleasure talking to you and keeping us 828 00:58:12,079 --> 00:58:15,199 up to date on UNO and what you've been doing. Thanks, thanks, 829 00:58:15,400 --> 00:58:16,920 thanks for having me on. It's been fantastic. Bet. All right, 830 00:58:17,000 --> 00:58:40,760 we'll talk to you next time. I'm dot net rox. Dot net Rocks 831 00:58:40,880 --> 00:58:45,440 is brought to you by Franklin's Net and produced by Pop Studios, a full 832 00:58:45,519 --> 00:58:51,840 service audio, video and post production facility located physically in New London, Connecticut, 833 00:58:52,159 --> 00:58:57,519 and of course in the cloud online at pwop dot com. Visit our 834 00:58:57,559 --> 00:59:00,400 website at d O T N E t R o c ks dot com for 835 00:59:00,639 --> 00:59:06,440 RSS feeds, downloads, mobile apps, comments, and access to the full 836 00:59:06,599 --> 00:59:10,039 archives going back to show number one, recorded in September two thousand and two. 837 00:59:10,719 --> 00:59:14,760 And make sure you check out our sponsors. They keep us in business. 838 00:59:15,280 --> 00:59:19,920 Now go write some code, See you next time you got JAD middle vans