1 00:00:01,120 --> 00:00:07,280 You're listening to the Mind over Murder podcast. My name is Bill Thomas. 2 00:00:07,799 --> 00:00:12,400 I'm a writer, consulting producer, and now podcaster. I am now trying 3 00:00:12,400 --> 00:00:16,519 to use my experience as the brother of a murder victim to help other victims 4 00:00:16,519 --> 00:00:20,719 of violent crime. I'm working on a book on the unsolved Colonial Parkway murders, 5 00:00:20,879 --> 00:00:24,760 and I'm the co administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together with 6 00:00:24,839 --> 00:00:29,120 Kristin Dilly. My name is Kristin Dilly. I'm a writer, a researcher, 7 00:00:29,320 --> 00:00:32,840 a teacher, and a victim's advocate, as well as the social media 8 00:00:32,920 --> 00:00:37,880 manager and co administrator for the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook page with my partner in 9 00:00:37,920 --> 00:00:45,960 crime, Bill Thomas. You're listening to the Mind over Murder podcast. My 10 00:00:46,079 --> 00:00:50,600 name is Bill Thomas. I'm a writer, consulting producer, and now podcaster. 11 00:00:51,079 --> 00:00:54,759 I am now trying to use my experience as the brother of a murder 12 00:00:54,840 --> 00:00:58,640 victim to help other victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book on 13 00:00:58,719 --> 00:01:03,960 the unsolved Colonial park and I'm a co administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook 14 00:01:03,960 --> 00:01:07,000 group together with Kristin Dilly. My name is Kristin Dilly. I'm a writer, 15 00:01:07,280 --> 00:01:11,879 a researcher, a teacher, and a victim's advocate, as well as 16 00:01:11,879 --> 00:01:17,079 the social media manager and co administrator for the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook page with 17 00:01:17,200 --> 00:01:22,519 my partner in crime, Bill Thomas. Welcome to Mind Ever Murderer. I'm 18 00:01:22,599 --> 00:01:26,480 Kristin Dilly and I'm Bill Thomas, and we're joined today by author Casey Sherman 19 00:01:26,599 --> 00:01:30,079 here to talk to us about his new book, A Murderer in Hollywood, 20 00:01:30,120 --> 00:01:34,799 The untold story of Tinseltown's most shocking crime. Casey, thanks for joining us 21 00:01:34,840 --> 00:01:38,120 again. Well, thanks for having me back as always a pleasure. So 22 00:01:38,159 --> 00:01:42,840 we wanted to start with an important question. Asey, this February thirteenth release 23 00:01:44,000 --> 00:01:49,560 day. Is this because you're an incurable romantic and you've convinced your publisher that 24 00:01:49,680 --> 00:01:55,519 coming out the day before Alentine's Day? Is there anything more romantic Bill than 25 00:01:55,879 --> 00:01:59,959 murder in Hollywood to talk about over a candlelight dinner with your significant other. 26 00:02:00,439 --> 00:02:05,879 But it's funny you mentioned that the probably is some type of marketing decision around 27 00:02:05,879 --> 00:02:10,000 that, because the thirteenth of February, where publishing is concerned, books come 28 00:02:10,039 --> 00:02:14,520 out in certain times of the month or certain times of season, so the 29 00:02:14,599 --> 00:02:20,039 winter books are really most of the release dates are around February thirteenth, and 30 00:02:20,080 --> 00:02:23,840 I do think they it is because people are going out and they're buying things, 31 00:02:23,879 --> 00:02:27,360 and they're looking for gifts. So the publishers are smart. If your 32 00:02:27,400 --> 00:02:30,639 loved ones the gift of murder this Valentine's Day, hell yeah, it's just 33 00:02:30,840 --> 00:02:38,719 so romantic, especially this story. It's romance off the charts. Before we 34 00:02:38,039 --> 00:02:43,840 jump into talking about your newest book, take a minute and just remind our 35 00:02:43,879 --> 00:02:51,039 listeners a little bit about your relationship with the true crime space, especially about 36 00:02:51,039 --> 00:02:54,719 your connection to the Boston Strangler case. I appreciate that Kristen the Murder in 37 00:02:54,759 --> 00:02:59,560 Hollywood. This new book is my sixteenth book. I've been writing true crime 38 00:02:59,639 --> 00:03:04,759 for over twenty years. Just celebrated my twentieth anniversary, as I should say, 39 00:03:04,759 --> 00:03:07,199 as a published author, and I do call myself an accidental author. 40 00:03:07,199 --> 00:03:10,439 I never believed of the writing books one day, but that is until I 41 00:03:10,479 --> 00:03:15,280 was thrust into the spotlight because of my work on the Boston Strangler case. 42 00:03:15,319 --> 00:03:19,360 Now this wasn't just something I picked out of thin air as a personal crusade 43 00:03:19,360 --> 00:03:22,319 for me. Really, my aunt was the youngest and final victim of that 44 00:03:22,400 --> 00:03:28,080 notorious nineteen sixties murder spree. So I investigated the case, or kind of 45 00:03:28,080 --> 00:03:32,080 reopened it. In the late eighties early nineteen nineties, wrote my first book, 46 00:03:32,080 --> 00:03:37,080 Arose from Mary Mary being my aunt Mary Sullivan's name, and it became 47 00:03:37,120 --> 00:03:38,919 a surprise bestseller, and then I thought, geez, I can do this. 48 00:03:39,360 --> 00:03:44,960 There are other stories that are worth telling. And now sixteen books later, 49 00:03:45,080 --> 00:03:49,360 here we are. We don't want to do an exhaustive bibliography, but 50 00:03:49,639 --> 00:03:53,599 do you give us just a brief friend in about your most recent book, 51 00:03:53,840 --> 00:03:59,520 which we understand is also being turned into a series by Amazon. Yeah, 52 00:03:59,520 --> 00:04:04,599 I've been I've had the real gift from Hollywood that producers look at my work 53 00:04:04,599 --> 00:04:09,680 and they see it easily adaptable because I write in a visual way. So 54 00:04:09,919 --> 00:04:14,360 I wrote Boston Strong, which became Patriots Day with Mark Wahlberg, a coast 55 00:04:14,400 --> 00:04:17,720 guard rescue story called The Finest Hours, which became a big Disney movie with 56 00:04:17,800 --> 00:04:21,720 Chris Pine and Casey Affleck and Helta. So Helltown is a book about a 57 00:04:21,720 --> 00:04:26,439 cerial murder case, and you guys had me on last year to discuss it, 58 00:04:26,839 --> 00:04:31,600 and now that's being adapted into an eight part limited series for Amazon Studios, 59 00:04:32,199 --> 00:04:38,920 and it's going to star Oscar Isaac as our protagonist, fellow writer Kurt 60 00:04:38,959 --> 00:04:45,199 Vonnegut that I hope many in your audience remember Kurt investigated a serial murder case 61 00:04:45,519 --> 00:04:47,920 back in the nineteen sixties on Cape Cot and it was one of the most 62 00:04:48,000 --> 00:04:51,800 vicious murder cases in the history of crime in my opinion. So we're really 63 00:04:51,839 --> 00:04:57,079 looking forward to the series. In this next book, Murder in Hollywood is 64 00:04:57,120 --> 00:05:00,720 also in development, is a feature film now as well. How much of 65 00:05:00,759 --> 00:05:06,319 a role do you play Casey as the author of the original material when it's 66 00:05:06,360 --> 00:05:12,319 being adapted for something like an eight part limited series. That's a great question. 67 00:05:12,360 --> 00:05:14,839 Bill. Earlier in my career, say with Patriots, Dad, I 68 00:05:14,839 --> 00:05:17,560 didn't really have a role. I was able to review the scripts and for 69 00:05:17,720 --> 00:05:23,480 authenticity purposes, but I didn't have any essay over casting or anything like that. 70 00:05:23,720 --> 00:05:26,959 They'd let me know that Mark Wahlberg had been cast in the lead, 71 00:05:27,040 --> 00:05:30,000 etc. But I didn't have a seat at the table. You only get 72 00:05:30,040 --> 00:05:32,959 that when you become an executive producer or a producer on the project, which 73 00:05:33,000 --> 00:05:39,639 I am for. Healtown that entire creative process from a collaborative standpoint has been 74 00:05:39,759 --> 00:05:43,920 amazing because I've been working with some of the best creative minds in Hollywood, 75 00:05:43,959 --> 00:05:47,199 starting with Team Downey. That's Robert Downey Junior and his wife Susan. They 76 00:05:47,199 --> 00:05:51,560 are my co producers on the project. Our director is Edward Berger, who 77 00:05:51,759 --> 00:05:56,720 won a slew of Oscars for All Quiet on the Western Front last year, 78 00:05:57,240 --> 00:06:00,839 and we picked up ed. Everybody in Hollywood wanted to work with him, 79 00:06:00,879 --> 00:06:03,839 but his new Oscar winning movie he hadn't come out yet. Sometimes luck plays 80 00:06:03,839 --> 00:06:09,319 a role in this, and it's all about bringing the best people to the 81 00:06:09,360 --> 00:06:14,079 project and letting them take their own journey with it. I wrote always the 82 00:06:14,120 --> 00:06:18,519 source material, but as the screenwriters are going to take it in sometimes a 83 00:06:18,720 --> 00:06:23,639 unique and different direction, and I'm okay with that as long as it really 84 00:06:24,079 --> 00:06:27,720 grips me. And it does Kasi. How do you decide on your subjects 85 00:06:27,759 --> 00:06:30,160 for your books? Do they do the subject pick you? Or do you 86 00:06:30,600 --> 00:06:34,879 go in search of topics? Is there a master list somewhere of here's all 87 00:06:34,920 --> 00:06:38,680 the things I'd like to cover and you're just taking them off one by one. 88 00:06:38,959 --> 00:06:42,199 Yeah, I've got a master list in my head. And sometimes these 89 00:06:42,319 --> 00:06:46,399 stories take years to develop, so I'll have to find another project in the 90 00:06:46,439 --> 00:06:50,600 meantime, and this book we're talking about today a murder in Hollywood. My 91 00:06:50,680 --> 00:06:56,759 agent, Peter Steinberg at UTA United Talent, gave me this idea after Helltown. 92 00:06:57,120 --> 00:07:00,439 My publisher, Source Books, was looking for another big book from me, 93 00:07:00,439 --> 00:07:06,680 meaning something that would incorporate the themes of a particular era and the names 94 00:07:06,720 --> 00:07:10,639 of some of the most prominent people of that era. And he sent me 95 00:07:10,680 --> 00:07:15,279 probably a list of four to five different news articles to take a look at. 96 00:07:15,399 --> 00:07:19,560 And I came upon this article with regard to Lana Turner back in the 97 00:07:19,639 --> 00:07:24,160 nineteen fifties, and I had heard the story about how she was involved with 98 00:07:24,240 --> 00:07:28,959 a very salacious and sensational murder by nineteen fifty eight. Didn't really give it 99 00:07:29,040 --> 00:07:31,399 much thought, but I thought, Okay, La Confidential is one of my 100 00:07:31,399 --> 00:07:36,759 favorite books, and certainly one of my favorite films too. Yeah, excellent 101 00:07:36,759 --> 00:07:42,199 bill. And I'm a big sucker for Raymond Chandler in all the La Noir 102 00:07:42,839 --> 00:07:46,360 books and films of the nineteen forties and fifties, and I would love to 103 00:07:46,560 --> 00:07:50,759 add to that large cannon in any way, shape or form. So I 104 00:07:50,800 --> 00:07:53,639 told my agent. I said, I'm going to take a look at this, 105 00:07:53,720 --> 00:07:56,800 give me a week. And I started to dig into the story and 106 00:07:56,879 --> 00:08:01,120 I realized the story hasn't been told in its breath for sixty years, and 107 00:08:01,199 --> 00:08:05,279 there's so much material that people don't even know about that I have been able 108 00:08:05,319 --> 00:08:07,959 to dig out, and I'm very proud of it. While we're on the 109 00:08:09,240 --> 00:08:13,079 LA Confidential tip for one second, I would probably say, if that's not 110 00:08:13,279 --> 00:08:18,439 my favorite film of all time, it's top five. We over the holidays, 111 00:08:18,480 --> 00:08:24,000 we saw a wonderful holiday movie, Christmas Movie with Jamie Cromwell. James 112 00:08:24,120 --> 00:08:28,199 Cromwell. Yeah. He had been on the board of sag Aftra and I 113 00:08:28,240 --> 00:08:31,000 was the executive director, so I had a chance to spend some time with 114 00:08:31,079 --> 00:08:33,799 him. I was told that her, am, he's a very intimidating guy, 115 00:08:33,840 --> 00:08:37,399 even though he's a lovely guy. He's six' six, right, 116 00:08:37,919 --> 00:08:41,879 And I thought, geez, how do I deal with this guy? But 117 00:08:41,919 --> 00:08:46,679 he ended up being such a great, rounded, thoughtful, kind man. 118 00:08:46,399 --> 00:08:52,200 And then I heard from other people on the staff that if he likes you, 119 00:08:52,480 --> 00:08:54,919 he'll let you call him Jamie. And then at some point when we'd 120 00:08:54,919 --> 00:08:58,840 work together a few months, he said to me Bill, call me Jamie, 121 00:08:58,919 --> 00:09:03,000 and I thought, I've a when you call. When you mentioned Jamie 122 00:09:03,039 --> 00:09:05,759 Crimewell, I said, jeez, he really has to know this guy. 123 00:09:05,840 --> 00:09:09,919 Good for you, Bill. But that film and that book two of my 124 00:09:09,000 --> 00:09:13,799 favorites. And there is a scene, if you recalling La Confidential, where 125 00:09:13,879 --> 00:09:20,360 Bud White Russell Crow's character takes Guy Pears into the Cafe Formosa and there one 126 00:09:20,360 --> 00:09:22,879 of them goes up to the booth where a lot of Turner and Johnny stopping 127 00:09:22,919 --> 00:09:26,639 out are sitting and there's a little scene there. So I thought, that's 128 00:09:26,720 --> 00:09:31,600 a unique way into this story. And quite frankly, I thought there'd be 129 00:09:31,639 --> 00:09:35,120 much more about this crime in not only filmography, but books have been written, 130 00:09:35,120 --> 00:09:39,519 but there really wasn't. No people have mentioned it. So it was 131 00:09:39,519 --> 00:09:43,679 a blank canvas for me to paint on over the past year and dig into 132 00:09:43,919 --> 00:09:48,000 all of the different details and nuances that I was looking to explore with this, 133 00:09:48,120 --> 00:09:50,559 because it wasn't really only a story about Lana Turner, but it was 134 00:09:50,600 --> 00:09:54,200 a story as well, a murder in Hollywood, about the rise of organized 135 00:09:54,240 --> 00:09:58,440 crime in Hollywood, which I was really fascinated by. I was so pleasantly 136 00:09:58,480 --> 00:10:05,679 surprised with the whole untold story because you feel like everything about Hollywood is known, 137 00:10:05,879 --> 00:10:09,799 and this actually was a story that I wasn't familiar with either. It's 138 00:10:09,840 --> 00:10:15,440 interesting that I looked at it as the Lana Turner's story, but I wanted 139 00:10:15,440 --> 00:10:20,480 to really focus on the rise of Hollywood, the studio system, and these 140 00:10:20,519 --> 00:10:24,559 young actors and actresses coinciding with the rise of organized crime. I looked at 141 00:10:24,639 --> 00:10:28,879 Lana Turner and her horizon, then I looked at La Gangster a gang Boss 142 00:10:28,960 --> 00:10:31,720 Mickey Cohen in his Rise, and they were pretty similar in terms of Tommy 143 00:10:31,840 --> 00:10:37,639 both taking over Hollywood in different ways, shapes or forms. And I would 144 00:10:37,679 --> 00:10:41,039 say that for the gangsters, you know what they're all about, and it's 145 00:10:41,080 --> 00:10:46,240 fascinating to explore that mindset. With the studios, it's a little more sinister, 146 00:10:46,559 --> 00:10:50,279 in my opinion, where you have these very well respected Hollywood producers who 147 00:10:50,320 --> 00:10:56,320 were preying on these young actors and actresses. And the Harvey Weinstein story didn't 148 00:10:56,360 --> 00:11:01,320 come out of thin air. It was born into Hollywood back in the twenties, 149 00:11:01,399 --> 00:11:03,559 thirties, forties, and ultimately the fifties. This is the sort of 150 00:11:03,639 --> 00:11:09,960 thing that I would love to be able to offer to my students in my 151 00:11:09,039 --> 00:11:13,240 film class as this is some of the fallout of the studio system because we've 152 00:11:13,240 --> 00:11:16,919 been talking about it. Given the current politics in my school district, I'm 153 00:11:16,919 --> 00:11:20,039 not going to be able to keep this on my shelf, unfortunately, but 154 00:11:20,200 --> 00:11:24,759 it is very interesting and so as I was reading this, I was sitting 155 00:11:24,799 --> 00:11:28,200 there going, this is definitely a story of that era, but it is 156 00:11:28,240 --> 00:11:31,000 a story for the twenty first century and the Me Too movement. You mentioned 157 00:11:31,000 --> 00:11:35,960 Harvey Weinstein a couple of minutes ago, and what I was really interested in 158 00:11:35,080 --> 00:11:41,159 is the fact that you have shown a light on the abuse of women in 159 00:11:41,200 --> 00:11:45,240 Hollywood starting from very early on. What do you think are some of the 160 00:11:45,279 --> 00:11:48,519 ways that Hollywood has changed as a result of that Me Too movement and what 161 00:11:48,559 --> 00:11:52,519 are some of the ways that it hasn't. That's a great question, Chris. 162 00:11:52,600 --> 00:11:58,559 Then I think that my goal was to provide some agency for Wana Turner 163 00:11:58,639 --> 00:12:01,399 in the book, really or her power back, and I think the female 164 00:12:01,440 --> 00:12:07,240 actors in Hollywood now are starting to get that power back and really starting to 165 00:12:07,639 --> 00:12:11,600 make decisions for the industry where they were always on the sideline or isolated, 166 00:12:11,679 --> 00:12:16,399 even the most paid actresses over the past twenty years or Julia Roberts here, 167 00:12:16,759 --> 00:12:22,639 Jennifer Lawrence is they never really had a creative seat at the table, which 168 00:12:22,879 --> 00:12:26,480 is ridiculous, Steven think about. But there was this mindset that goes all 169 00:12:26,480 --> 00:12:30,799 the way back to the nineteen twenties in Hollywood, where Hollywood was a man's 170 00:12:30,799 --> 00:12:35,480 world for a long time. And there are so many celebrities that we've in 171 00:12:35,559 --> 00:12:39,519 and out of the pages of a Murder in Hollywood, from Sean Connery to 172 00:12:39,639 --> 00:12:45,080 Marilyn Monroe. Judy Garland Dorothy from The Wizard of Oz, who died tragically 173 00:12:45,080 --> 00:12:46,639 in her late forties, and everybody looked at her and said, oh, 174 00:12:48,000 --> 00:12:50,879 what a tragic story that was. She became an alcoholic and a drug addict. 175 00:12:52,039 --> 00:12:56,639 She didn't just become that. The studios had put her on drugs when 176 00:12:56,639 --> 00:13:00,399 she was a young teenager, when she was almost a pre teen. They 177 00:13:00,399 --> 00:13:05,399 had fed these young actors and phetamines to keep them working for seventy hours a 178 00:13:05,399 --> 00:13:09,559 week to crank out movie after movie. And these kids persisted on chicken broth 179 00:13:09,600 --> 00:13:15,320 and cigarettes. That was their diet along with these pills. It's surprising that 180 00:13:15,399 --> 00:13:20,519 there weren't more Judy Garlands in the world than there was even Lana Turner. 181 00:13:20,639 --> 00:13:22,600 When I was doing a little bit of research to get ready for today, 182 00:13:22,759 --> 00:13:26,960 I had forgotten that she died of throat cancer. I know, even going 183 00:13:28,000 --> 00:13:31,360 back to my parents' generation. We were talking recently about the fact that so 184 00:13:31,480 --> 00:13:35,360 many adults when I was a kid, so many adults used to smoke cigarettes. 185 00:13:35,399 --> 00:13:39,360 But then it would be endemic in a place like Hollywood, and like 186 00:13:39,399 --> 00:13:46,000 you say, surviving on broth and cigarettes and drugs and alcohol. Yeah, 187 00:13:46,120 --> 00:13:48,960 and these kids were thirteen years old at the time. And yeah, it's 188 00:13:48,960 --> 00:13:52,120 funny you mentioned that. Bill. My wife and I just saw Maestro the 189 00:13:52,159 --> 00:13:58,080 other day with Bradley Cooper about Letter Bernstein, and I had to go outside 190 00:13:58,240 --> 00:14:01,440 and breathe some fresh air because of all this smoking in the film. I 191 00:14:01,559 --> 00:14:03,360 was, I can breathe. And again, it was a short time ago 192 00:14:03,480 --> 00:14:07,120 when we all grew up in that type of environment with our parents and grandparents. 193 00:14:07,120 --> 00:14:11,399 And here you have Hollywood where they're putting these young actors on the fast 194 00:14:11,440 --> 00:14:16,679 track when they're so young. Alana Turner has got one of the greatest introductions 195 00:14:16,720 --> 00:14:24,720 to Hollywood in history. She's the original Discovery story. She was discovered sitting 196 00:14:24,720 --> 00:14:28,000 at a soda fountain in Hollywood. That was her, and that led to 197 00:14:28,559 --> 00:14:33,279 thousands, if not a million, starlets or would be starlets making their way 198 00:14:33,279 --> 00:14:37,399 to Hollywood in the subsequent decades, sitting on a stool at a soda fountain, 199 00:14:37,440 --> 00:14:41,720 waiting to be discovered. But that's she was just a kid at Hollywood 200 00:14:41,799 --> 00:14:46,240 High School. She had moved to Hollywood from San Francisco because her own father 201 00:14:46,440 --> 00:14:50,159 was murdered when she was quite young. And I started the book with a 202 00:14:50,279 --> 00:14:56,879 chapter to explain why she was always drawn to dark men in her life. 203 00:14:56,440 --> 00:15:01,559 I think that's what she was plagued by much of her life until she decided 204 00:15:01,600 --> 00:15:05,960 to get her power back. A lot of people are probably familiar with the 205 00:15:05,039 --> 00:15:09,679 name Lenna Turner, but I think there may be some people who are not 206 00:15:09,840 --> 00:15:13,840 familiar with the name Johnny Stompinado, and I certainly was not. Can you 207 00:15:13,919 --> 00:15:18,000 just give us a quick rundown? Who is Johnny Stompanado? Yeah, that's 208 00:15:18,039 --> 00:15:20,879 a great question. Christ And for those who don't know, what was Marilyn 209 00:15:20,879 --> 00:15:26,879 Monroe Before Marilyn Monroe, Lano owned Hollywood. Marilyn Monroe adored and idolized Lana 210 00:15:26,960 --> 00:15:31,639 and actually took her whole image from Lana Turner dyed her hair platinum blonde, 211 00:15:31,720 --> 00:15:37,080 and Lana was in her mid thirties by the time Maryland came around and passed 212 00:15:37,120 --> 00:15:41,840 the baton of Hollywood Superstar to Marilyn Monroe. So a lot of Turner was 213 00:15:41,039 --> 00:15:46,840 huge in Hollywood and certainly is in Hollywood history. Johnny Stompanado was a World 214 00:15:46,879 --> 00:15:52,360 War Two veteran bad guy who grew up in the Woodstock, Illinois and made 215 00:15:52,440 --> 00:15:56,559 his way to Hollywood and wanted to get on the fast track with organized crime. 216 00:15:56,720 --> 00:16:00,799 And he was a jigglow in his first days in Hollywood, which a 217 00:16:00,840 --> 00:16:03,440 lot of people were at that time praying on men and women, which is 218 00:16:03,480 --> 00:16:08,960 what Johnny did. And suddenly young crime boss named Mickey Cohen took Johnny under 219 00:16:08,960 --> 00:16:12,919 his wing. Mickey liked Johnny because Johnny was a combat vet and Johnny knew 220 00:16:12,919 --> 00:16:17,279 his way around weapons, and Johnny was pretty smart and pretty tough. Johnny 221 00:16:17,440 --> 00:16:22,759 started to really have an influence on Mickey Cohen and his criminal activities. And 222 00:16:22,840 --> 00:16:27,279 Mickey Cohen's interesting because for much of the book of Murder in Hollywood, the 223 00:16:27,279 --> 00:16:33,600 reader is going to be reading about these shooting attacks on Sunset Boulevard right in 224 00:16:33,639 --> 00:16:38,600 the middle of broad daylight or bombing attempts at Mickey Cohen's home in Brentwood, 225 00:16:38,759 --> 00:16:44,399 a block from where OJ Simpson eventually lived. Hollywood was under attack by organized 226 00:16:44,440 --> 00:16:48,279 crime in the glory days of Hollywood, and people don't realize that. And 227 00:16:48,440 --> 00:16:52,720 as Mickey got a little older, he wanted to probably get away from the 228 00:16:52,840 --> 00:16:56,879 gangster violence, so to speak. So he and Johnny started to extort Hollywood 229 00:16:56,879 --> 00:17:03,079 starts, putting them into compromising positions, and that's how this affair with Lana 230 00:17:03,119 --> 00:17:08,799 Turner started. Were you able to spend some time in Los Angeles doing research 231 00:17:10,359 --> 00:17:15,119 for the book? You're based in Massachusetts, do you end up making trips 232 00:17:15,119 --> 00:17:19,039 out there to just refamiliarize yourself with the lay of the land. Yeah, 233 00:17:19,200 --> 00:17:22,680 Bill. As a writer, for me, you have to look, touch 234 00:17:22,720 --> 00:17:26,839 and feel it. I can't write about something unless I've seen it. I 235 00:17:26,880 --> 00:17:32,000 did spend quite some time out in Los Angeles and Hollywood going over the ghosts 236 00:17:32,160 --> 00:17:37,279 of Lana Turner and Mickey Cohen, walking up Sunset Boulevard and recognizing where Mickey 237 00:17:37,279 --> 00:17:41,839 Cohen's headquarters once was, where all of the nightclubs that he had owned, 238 00:17:41,960 --> 00:17:47,240 and there that street is so famous, so you can recognize where these places 239 00:17:47,240 --> 00:17:49,400 were, and I certainly did that. I went to Lana Turner's home in 240 00:17:49,440 --> 00:17:55,319 Beverly Hills, where the culmination of this story takes place, and this story 241 00:17:55,400 --> 00:18:00,359 ultimately is it's a collision course between Hollywood glamour and gangsterism that ended up in 242 00:18:00,359 --> 00:18:04,559 a bloodstained bedroom in Beverly Hills. How do you gain access to someone's home 243 00:18:04,720 --> 00:18:07,839 like that. I couldn't walk the grid there. I've done that in the 244 00:18:07,880 --> 00:18:14,200 past. I gained access to Whitey Bulger's apartment in Santa Monica a few years 245 00:18:14,200 --> 00:18:18,359 ago when I wrote my book Hunting Weddy. But now that Lana's home is 246 00:18:18,400 --> 00:18:21,880 in private hands, going up and knocking on the door probably would have freaked 247 00:18:21,920 --> 00:18:26,920 somebody out, and I didn't want to do, but just to familiarize myself 248 00:18:26,920 --> 00:18:30,039 with the street, with the home standing across the street, and I'm sure 249 00:18:30,279 --> 00:18:33,680 they realized that this is an infamous home in Hollywood, and a lot of 250 00:18:33,720 --> 00:18:36,880 people got at it and take photos. I was no different from any other 251 00:18:37,039 --> 00:18:41,000 tourists doing the same thing. But I also had the knowledge of everything that 252 00:18:41,039 --> 00:18:45,000 I had learned up to that point to allow me to picture what it must 253 00:18:45,039 --> 00:18:49,599 have been like on good Friday nineteen fifty eight when there was a swarm of 254 00:18:49,640 --> 00:18:56,440 police cars in front of that beautiful mansion in Beverly Hills, wondering what the 255 00:18:56,480 --> 00:19:00,279 hell happened inside. What kind of media and archival records were available to you? 256 00:19:00,319 --> 00:19:04,759 Did you have to foil anything or all of this available? All of 257 00:19:04,799 --> 00:19:10,319 it's available if you just know where to look. The LA Times was a 258 00:19:10,319 --> 00:19:15,480 great resource. The Los Angeles Police Department was a great resource. Beverly Hills 259 00:19:15,519 --> 00:19:18,599 Police Department was a great resource. There is a you can use now for 260 00:19:18,759 --> 00:19:23,799 journalists and writers called newspapers dot com, and it's a subscription. But if 261 00:19:23,839 --> 00:19:27,160 you buy the subscription and that's a nominal fee, but you can go all 262 00:19:27,200 --> 00:19:33,720 the way back to the eighteen hundreds and start digging through every newspaper article that 263 00:19:33,799 --> 00:19:38,359 has been digitized. And I was shocked at how many newspaper articles there were, 264 00:19:38,759 --> 00:19:41,200 not only about a lot of Turner, I knew that, but about 265 00:19:41,240 --> 00:19:45,720 Mickey Cohen at the time, and about Johnny Stampanado. He didn't just come 266 00:19:45,759 --> 00:19:49,920 out of thin air. He'd been written about and reported on in Hollywood for 267 00:19:51,039 --> 00:19:53,960 almost a decade before he'd even met Lana Turner. So does that mean that 268 00:19:55,039 --> 00:19:59,960 Johnny Stoppanado in praying on both women and men, is he bisexual himsel, 269 00:20:00,680 --> 00:20:03,200 Yeah, he never looked at I don't think he ever looked at himself that 270 00:20:03,279 --> 00:20:07,039 way. He looked at this was the price of doing business in Hollywood. 271 00:20:07,079 --> 00:20:11,400 By write about Johnny having alliances with Liberaci, merv Griffin and again back in 272 00:20:11,480 --> 00:20:15,440 the nineteen fifties, these gay actors and gay celebrities, they had to stay 273 00:20:15,440 --> 00:20:18,519 in the closet, and the only way that they could have that type of 274 00:20:18,559 --> 00:20:23,079 companionship they were looking for were to get into business with people. Johnny Stompanaut 275 00:20:23,240 --> 00:20:27,400 and Johnny Stompanato recognized that, and he knew that the only way to get 276 00:20:27,400 --> 00:20:32,200 into Hollywood was to use his body both as a weapon and as a tool 277 00:20:32,240 --> 00:20:36,440 for sex. So really he's a hustler more than anything else in terms of 278 00:20:36,480 --> 00:20:41,119 that's how we started Bill's relationship. He started as a hustler. I think 279 00:20:41,160 --> 00:20:45,079 he morphed into a gangster under Mickey, and then I think he became a 280 00:20:45,160 --> 00:20:48,920 hustler at the end of his life as he was trying to hustle Lana Turner 281 00:20:48,000 --> 00:20:53,960 out of millions of dollars that she was worth at the time you're listening to 282 00:20:55,079 --> 00:21:00,240 mind over Murder, We'll be right back after this word from our sponsors, 283 00:21:07,119 --> 00:21:14,039 we're back here at mindover Murder. Before we get back to the podcast, 284 00:21:14,200 --> 00:21:18,119 just wanted to remind you that we have a go fundme effort going on right 285 00:21:18,160 --> 00:21:22,599 now. This campaign is designed to help us raise funds to help promote mindover 286 00:21:22,720 --> 00:21:30,640 Murder and specifically to push the Colonial Parkway murders investigation forward. We'd love it 287 00:21:30,640 --> 00:21:34,000 if you could support us in any way that you can. Any donation from 288 00:21:34,119 --> 00:21:38,880 five dollars to whatever you can afford is very much appreciated and will be incredibly 289 00:21:38,880 --> 00:21:42,920 helpful. The link is in the show notes and in our social media pages. 290 00:21:44,839 --> 00:21:48,519 As always, thanks for your support. Now back to mindover Murder. 291 00:21:51,240 --> 00:21:55,440 Were you able to interview Lana Turner's out of Cheryl Crane for this book? 292 00:21:56,519 --> 00:22:00,079 Now, what I was told was Cheryl is I think she's almost ninety now 293 00:22:00,160 --> 00:22:04,799 and in a pretty affirm I don't think she's in good health. But I 294 00:22:04,839 --> 00:22:10,440 did read her book Detour, which goes into at length her childhood, and 295 00:22:10,480 --> 00:22:14,200 it's a very tragic childhood. I think I don't think we see I too. 296 00:22:14,359 --> 00:22:17,480 I in terms of what happened in the bedroom in nineteen fifty eight, 297 00:22:17,640 --> 00:22:21,839 And I do think I've got my heart breaks for Cheryl Krane, and I 298 00:22:21,839 --> 00:22:25,400 think she spent her whole life trying to protect her mother, and I think 299 00:22:25,480 --> 00:22:29,039 Lana spent her whole life trying to protect Cheryl. So it was a symbiotic 300 00:22:29,119 --> 00:22:34,720 relationship. So do you regard Johnny Stampinato's murder as a case of self defense 301 00:22:34,799 --> 00:22:40,640 as they claim? I would say that it was about time for Lana to 302 00:22:40,839 --> 00:22:44,200 take her life back. Now, I take the reader in a murder for 303 00:22:44,279 --> 00:22:48,160 Hollywood, in murder in Hollywood, rather through her life and through all the 304 00:22:48,160 --> 00:22:53,119 bad decisions that she had made regarding men in her life and men that abused 305 00:22:53,119 --> 00:23:00,240 her physically, mentally, emotionally, financially, and ultimately she couldn't make it 306 00:23:00,279 --> 00:23:06,880 anymore. And when Johnny Stompanado got extremely violent against her and then threatened the 307 00:23:06,880 --> 00:23:11,960 life of Lana's mother and Cheryl, who was fourteen years old at the time, 308 00:23:11,440 --> 00:23:17,680 Lana decided to take her future in her own hands and kill Johnny STOMPANAO. 309 00:23:18,119 --> 00:23:21,119 That's what I believe, and I think that's what the evidence in the 310 00:23:21,519 --> 00:23:25,440 case dictates. And I think it would have been justifiable homicide because he was 311 00:23:25,480 --> 00:23:29,279 going to kill her at some point and she just was a little quicker than 312 00:23:29,279 --> 00:23:33,319 he was. This was really high profile case back then. How did the 313 00:23:33,400 --> 00:23:38,440 media treat the major players in this case? You read all of the newspaper 314 00:23:38,519 --> 00:23:42,920 reporting. What was the media like toward Lana and toward Jonny. Well, 315 00:23:44,160 --> 00:23:47,559 it's a great question, Christen, because Lana for sixty years has been looked 316 00:23:47,599 --> 00:23:52,359 at as a fem fatality by Hollywood. What this book does is it elevates 317 00:23:52,359 --> 00:23:57,160 her to a rightful position as a feminist icon. I think that anytime a 318 00:23:57,240 --> 00:24:03,720 crime like that happens, the focus immediately is on the alleged perpetrator, and 319 00:24:03,759 --> 00:24:07,559 I think the media dragged Lana through the bushes, if you will, and 320 00:24:07,720 --> 00:24:11,000 really cast the negative eye on her, which is one of the reasons why 321 00:24:11,160 --> 00:24:15,519 decision was made not necessarily by Lana, but by her attorney at the time, 322 00:24:15,640 --> 00:24:18,960 the Hollywood fixer named Jerry Geeseler, who was basically the Johnny Cochran of 323 00:24:19,000 --> 00:24:25,079 the nineteen fifties who it was the first call she made after the knife had 324 00:24:25,079 --> 00:24:30,440 gone into Johnny's torso and he's lying dead on her bedroom floor. She calls 325 00:24:30,559 --> 00:24:36,519 the lawyer before she calls police. The lawyer gets there, and the crime 326 00:24:36,599 --> 00:24:41,599 scene is manipulated for the next hour, and then a narrative is created. 327 00:24:41,039 --> 00:24:45,480 Who wielded the knife? Was it Lana? If it was Lana's going to 328 00:24:45,559 --> 00:24:49,880 go to trial, and there's a likelihood that Lana could get the death pendant, 329 00:24:49,920 --> 00:24:53,599 which was very real in nineteen fifty eight. But if we put the 330 00:24:53,680 --> 00:24:57,680 knife in the fourteen year old daughter's hand, now we can look at a 331 00:24:57,839 --> 00:25:03,920 justifiable homicide case. Because an all male jury, Remember guys, jury's were 332 00:25:03,960 --> 00:25:07,279 all male in nineteen fifty eight, an all male jury, many of those 333 00:25:07,599 --> 00:25:12,440 men would have daughters that they would be sympathetic for. And I think that 334 00:25:12,440 --> 00:25:15,400 there would be a lot of sympathy and empathy for Cheryl. I don't think 335 00:25:15,480 --> 00:25:21,519 there would have been for Lana if she was facing the same charges. Cheryl's 336 00:25:21,559 --> 00:25:25,240 a lovely fourteen year old girl, but she really is a girl. So 337 00:25:25,599 --> 00:25:32,279 it's a lot easier to dismiss people's darkest thoughts about what happened that night because 338 00:25:32,440 --> 00:25:36,759 there's a kid involved. That's right, And I think, as I said, 339 00:25:36,839 --> 00:25:40,240 nobody could imagine that a child would be put into prison, or a 340 00:25:40,319 --> 00:25:42,759 child who would be allowed to stand trial as an adult. That just didn't 341 00:25:42,799 --> 00:25:47,880 happen back in nineteen fifty eight, especially in Hollywood. The tables would have 342 00:25:47,880 --> 00:25:51,720 been turned that had Lana done that. But the interesting thing reading the book 343 00:25:51,880 --> 00:25:56,720 or what I found in my research is Lana was eventually sued by the Stampanado 344 00:25:56,799 --> 00:26:00,160 family for wrongful death, and she settled the case before without going to trial. 345 00:26:00,680 --> 00:26:03,279 So what does that tell me? That tells me that Lana did not 346 00:26:03,440 --> 00:26:07,400 want this to go to civil trial because there's no statute of limitation on murder 347 00:26:07,559 --> 00:26:12,160 and she could have been put on trial eventually for Johnny Stamponano's death and she 348 00:26:12,279 --> 00:26:18,160 avoided that at all costs. One of the disconnects for me, Casey is 349 00:26:18,480 --> 00:26:23,519 we talked about the studio system and how they controlled these actors and actresses, 350 00:26:23,920 --> 00:26:30,079 particularly when they were younger. How does a situation like this develop where Lana 351 00:26:30,160 --> 00:26:36,200 Turner is unfortunately involved in all of these abusive relationships and there's so much negative 352 00:26:36,359 --> 00:26:41,480 energy surrounding her. I feel like there's a disconnect between the studio system and 353 00:26:41,519 --> 00:26:45,640 then all the terrible things that were happening in Lana's life. Would they not 354 00:26:45,759 --> 00:26:49,000 able to protect their stars from some of this stuff. It's a great question 355 00:26:49,039 --> 00:26:52,240 Bill. Not only were they not able to protect their stars, they were 356 00:26:52,440 --> 00:26:59,079 I would say there was culpability on the studio side because Lana Turner had a 357 00:26:59,359 --> 00:27:03,160 morality law with the studio MGM at the time. If she was in a 358 00:27:03,200 --> 00:27:07,119 relationship with someone, she would have to marry that person. First of all, 359 00:27:07,599 --> 00:27:11,119 she couldn't just have a boyfriend because that was not looked at in the 360 00:27:11,160 --> 00:27:14,279 right way in nineteen fifty eight. And then she was stuck in a loveless, 361 00:27:14,599 --> 00:27:19,079 violent marriage until that marriage ended, until she divorced whomever she was with 362 00:27:19,279 --> 00:27:22,400 at that time. And one of the shocking things I found out in my 363 00:27:22,519 --> 00:27:27,160 research going through FBI case files was that they had a case. Jade Goarhover 364 00:27:27,240 --> 00:27:30,319 had a full file on Lana Turner, and there is an episode in the 365 00:27:30,319 --> 00:27:36,079 book where an FBI agent follows Lana to New York City and Lana was dating 366 00:27:36,079 --> 00:27:40,960 an African American jazz musician at the time. Somehow that agent gets that information 367 00:27:41,039 --> 00:27:45,759 to Jay Edgarhoover. Jed Goarhover calls up Louis B. Mayor at MGM and 368 00:27:45,799 --> 00:27:48,359 says, the Queen of Hollywood, which is what Lana was at the time 369 00:27:48,759 --> 00:27:52,440 is dating an African American the Alana almost lost her job at the studio just 370 00:27:52,480 --> 00:27:59,880 for that. So these actors were under incredible pressure at the time to paint 371 00:28:00,559 --> 00:28:03,160 what we would call a wholesome picture of the movie industry. But it was 372 00:28:03,240 --> 00:28:07,640 really anything but for anyone who isn't clear on the concept of morality clause. 373 00:28:07,640 --> 00:28:11,160 And I had to explain that to my film class, and we were talking 374 00:28:11,160 --> 00:28:15,279 about the studio system. Was a morality clause something that applied equally to male 375 00:28:15,359 --> 00:28:19,240 and female stars or would it mainly have been female stars that had a morality 376 00:28:19,240 --> 00:28:23,440 clause added to their contract. That is a great question, Kristen, Well, 377 00:28:23,480 --> 00:28:27,440 you look at the morality clauses of male stars, and I mentioned this 378 00:28:27,519 --> 00:28:32,640 in the book. Lana Turner is a teenager. Lana Turner is a minor, 379 00:28:32,880 --> 00:28:38,839 but the studio is demanding that she escort their male adult stars, including 380 00:28:38,880 --> 00:28:44,160 a future president named Ronald Reagan, to the regular And so you have these 381 00:28:44,400 --> 00:28:48,839 adult stars that are in their late twenties, thirties, even forties, squaring 382 00:28:48,880 --> 00:28:55,920 around these underage female starlets and nobody that's an eye, which is what made 383 00:28:55,960 --> 00:28:59,440 me sick as I was writing this, but I wanted to again lift the 384 00:28:59,519 --> 00:29:03,599 veil of the toxic masculinity that Hollywood had at the time and probably still has. 385 00:29:04,000 --> 00:29:10,799 I was reading the scene about Errol Flynn and his yacht and I just 386 00:29:10,960 --> 00:29:15,160 had to put the book down for a little bit. I absolutely could not 387 00:29:15,319 --> 00:29:19,599 believe some of the hijinks that were going on with the biggest stars in Hollywood 388 00:29:19,640 --> 00:29:23,839 at that point. It really was just sick. Name some of them was 389 00:29:23,920 --> 00:29:27,519 Robin Hood. He was the biggest action star, really the first action star 390 00:29:27,559 --> 00:29:33,440 in Hollywood history, and he was basically a serial rapist of young women and 391 00:29:33,480 --> 00:29:37,480 he actually eventually went to trial for that. So again, the studios looked 392 00:29:37,519 --> 00:29:45,079 the other way while these older actors were preying on these young stars. You're 393 00:29:45,119 --> 00:29:49,519 a dad, and you're a dad of teenage daughters now but now in the 394 00:29:49,599 --> 00:29:56,759 twenties. But yes, in writing something like this, do you find yourself 395 00:29:56,119 --> 00:30:02,839 talking to your daughters about this? You're looking at this from a twenty twenty 396 00:30:02,839 --> 00:30:07,359 four lens. Yeah, But at the same time, this stuff still goes 397 00:30:07,400 --> 00:30:11,480 on. As Kristin mentioned the me Too movement a few minutes ago, do 398 00:30:11,559 --> 00:30:17,079 you find yourself discussing these things with your daughters? Oh? I think you 399 00:30:17,200 --> 00:30:18,799 have to. And I have these conversations with my wife as well, but 400 00:30:18,880 --> 00:30:22,440 with our daughters. They're now getting into the workplace for the first time, 401 00:30:22,480 --> 00:30:27,000 they're leaving college, and it's a whole different world out there. Hopefully the 402 00:30:27,000 --> 00:30:30,279 world is a lot better now than it was even a few years ago. 403 00:30:30,359 --> 00:30:36,039 But they have to know that these things are real, and these demons exist 404 00:30:36,200 --> 00:30:40,119 in every way, shape or form in every industry they're out there. Do 405 00:30:40,160 --> 00:30:45,359 you think Hollywood has made enough changes as a result of the me Too movement? 406 00:30:45,039 --> 00:30:48,880 Has Hollywood come a good distance since what happened with Lana Turner? Are 407 00:30:48,880 --> 00:30:55,079 they just hiding it better? They probably just that's a great question. I 408 00:30:55,119 --> 00:30:57,960 don't know that would be a question for a female actor to answer. I 409 00:30:57,960 --> 00:31:02,079 can't put myself in the issues. I knew what it was like as I 410 00:31:02,119 --> 00:31:07,759 wrote about it. I hope Hollywood's come a great deal further from Lana's time, 411 00:31:07,799 --> 00:31:11,079 and especially from this awakening that's happened over the past few years. But 412 00:31:11,359 --> 00:31:18,119 Hollywood cyclical, and these bad characters always somehow get second chances. Not the 413 00:31:18,119 --> 00:31:22,519 Harvey Weinstein's because he's in jail, but some of these other people that weren't 414 00:31:22,559 --> 00:31:26,400 brought to justice or trial. They still have their careers in Hollywood, and 415 00:31:26,599 --> 00:31:30,000 they go into what they call Hollywood jail for a couple of years, and 416 00:31:30,039 --> 00:31:34,519 then they come out and people forget what they had done. You have to 417 00:31:34,559 --> 00:31:38,119 google. Thank god there's the internet now, because you can read up very 418 00:31:38,200 --> 00:31:42,799 quickly on their litany of offenses. This story is so amazing, and I'm 419 00:31:42,839 --> 00:31:47,720 thrilled that you've written the book as a result, because it does shine a 420 00:31:47,759 --> 00:31:52,480 spotlight on something that I think had been somewhat forgotten. What I don't quite 421 00:31:52,640 --> 00:31:57,240 get is this obviously was a very high profile story back in nineteen fifty eight 422 00:31:57,319 --> 00:32:01,200 when it happened, Yet it's seems to have been forgotten. Is it just 423 00:32:01,359 --> 00:32:07,079 the passage of time, or is there some other reason why the Landa Turner 424 00:32:07,319 --> 00:32:13,079 Johnny Stamponado's story hasn't been more top of mind. That's a great question, 425 00:32:13,119 --> 00:32:15,880 Bill. I think if we're talking about if this was Marilyn Monroe now, 426 00:32:16,079 --> 00:32:22,279 it probably would have been a story that immediately was recognizable to the masses. 427 00:32:22,680 --> 00:32:25,720 But I think that Hollywood always goes on to the next project right after the 428 00:32:25,799 --> 00:32:30,759 Lana Turner scandal. Hollywood has been right for scandal for the last sixty years, 429 00:32:30,759 --> 00:32:36,440 whether it's Helter Skelter or the oj Simpson case, or what's happening in 430 00:32:36,440 --> 00:32:39,960 Hollywood right now, the producer's son who was accused of murdering his wife. 431 00:32:40,279 --> 00:32:45,119 So there are always scandals in Hollywood. This was certainly the biggest at the 432 00:32:45,160 --> 00:32:49,279 time, and probably the biggest I would say over a span of maybe a 433 00:32:49,279 --> 00:32:53,119 couple of decades, because it was so sensational and Lana was the biggest actor 434 00:32:53,559 --> 00:32:58,759 in Hollywood at the time. Imagine Margot Robbie, for example, if this 435 00:32:58,799 --> 00:33:01,079 had happened to her yesterday, That's what it would be like. Lona was 436 00:33:01,200 --> 00:33:05,799 as big as star, if not bigger than Margot Robbie in nineteen fifty eight. 437 00:33:06,160 --> 00:33:07,920 I know that when you go into each book project, you're going into 438 00:33:07,920 --> 00:33:13,519 it to write an excellent book. But is there anything else aside from a 439 00:33:13,559 --> 00:33:17,039 great true crime story that you're hoping the reader will get out of a murder 440 00:33:17,039 --> 00:33:22,119 in Hollywood? Yeah, I would say that. I call myself an archaeologist 441 00:33:22,119 --> 00:33:25,160 of words. I get excited when I learned something that's new that I don't 442 00:33:25,160 --> 00:33:29,880 know, and I can't wait to write about it in a way that makes 443 00:33:29,880 --> 00:33:34,880 it entertaining and informative for the reader. As I said, I think my 444 00:33:35,000 --> 00:33:40,319 goal here is to examine the toxic masculinity of Hollywood, to show the reader 445 00:33:40,400 --> 00:33:46,839 how Hollywood began and grew over several decades. It wasn't all of these beautiful 446 00:33:46,880 --> 00:33:52,720 sachronesque Hollywood movies that they were churning out. There was darkness behind the screen, 447 00:33:52,920 --> 00:33:58,279 and that darkness bled onto the streets of Sunset Boulevard with a crime wave 448 00:33:58,359 --> 00:34:02,880 that was unsurpassed in many ways some of the gangster episodes that I write about 449 00:34:02,920 --> 00:34:07,799 in Murder in Hollywood. I was really shocked to know that these things actually 450 00:34:07,839 --> 00:34:12,480 happened in a place that everybody is either seen on television or film or who 451 00:34:12,480 --> 00:34:17,599 have been there. Some of your most popular books have had a Massachusetts theme 452 00:34:19,000 --> 00:34:22,679 or have a connection to Cape cod where you're from. This seems like a 453 00:34:23,119 --> 00:34:29,679 very deliberate shift away from East Coast themes to West Coast themes. So is 454 00:34:29,719 --> 00:34:32,760 that a conscious decision on your part? I would say it was a subconscious 455 00:34:32,760 --> 00:34:37,480 decision. It probably wasn't. I didn't lead with that, but it was 456 00:34:37,519 --> 00:34:42,159 on my mind. I wanted to break out of the regionality of some of 457 00:34:42,199 --> 00:34:45,880 the books that I've been writing most recently, because they all have a New 458 00:34:45,880 --> 00:34:49,719 England or a Boston bent if you will. Good story is a good story 459 00:34:49,800 --> 00:34:53,480 no matter where you find it. So I'm always looking for stories that speak 460 00:34:53,519 --> 00:34:58,079 to me anywhere. It just so happens that New England is such a great 461 00:34:58,320 --> 00:35:04,440 place for these stories organically come up. But Hollywood is I'm out there, 462 00:35:04,880 --> 00:35:07,079 if not several times a year as much as I can, so I'm very 463 00:35:07,079 --> 00:35:12,960 familiar with that topography and that geography, and I understand the streets there as 464 00:35:13,039 --> 00:35:16,159 well as I do Boston. Does your wife lobby for Tahiti or some other 465 00:35:16,440 --> 00:35:21,480 really wonderful location for and I wish, Yeah, she wants me to just 466 00:35:22,400 --> 00:35:24,280 she likes me to stay home, don't go too far. And I get 467 00:35:24,280 --> 00:35:29,360 it. There's a certain risk involved with some of the books that I write. 468 00:35:29,679 --> 00:35:31,719 With the Murder of Hollywood, the great thing is everybody was long gone 469 00:35:31,760 --> 00:35:37,199 by the time Casey Sherman knocked on Lana's door in Beverly Hills, So I 470 00:35:37,239 --> 00:35:40,400 was able to write this with through the prism of history and get the story. 471 00:35:40,480 --> 00:35:45,039 I think the reporters in nineteen fifty eight we're trying to outdo each other 472 00:35:45,159 --> 00:35:49,840 with sensational reporting and headlines, but they weren't seeing what the story was. 473 00:35:50,559 --> 00:35:53,400 And when I looked at it from a thirty thousand foot level, I was 474 00:35:53,440 --> 00:35:58,760 able to see where the pieces fit for the first time. People didn't realize 475 00:35:58,800 --> 00:36:02,519 that Lana and Johnny Stompanado didn't just fall in love. This was an extortion 476 00:36:02,639 --> 00:36:07,280 plot from day one, and poor Lana it was being victimized yet again and 477 00:36:07,599 --> 00:36:15,000 decided once Johnny Stompanado after a very violent beating that he gave her on Oscar 478 00:36:15,119 --> 00:36:20,000 night when she was nominated for Best Supporting Actress, the biggest night of her 479 00:36:20,000 --> 00:36:23,599 professional career, and she does not invite Johnny to the Oscars. Instead, 480 00:36:23,639 --> 00:36:28,239 she takes her daughter and her mother, and when she gets back to her 481 00:36:28,320 --> 00:36:31,320 hotel room or her bungalow late at night, of course, Johnny has found 482 00:36:31,320 --> 00:36:35,559 his way in there and he's waiting for her and gives her the beating of 483 00:36:35,559 --> 00:36:38,119 her life. And she knew at that point there was no other way to 484 00:36:38,280 --> 00:36:42,599 rid herself of this man. If she tried to leave him, he'd kill 485 00:36:42,639 --> 00:36:45,480 her. If she tried to leave him, he'd kill her daughter and her 486 00:36:45,480 --> 00:36:47,639 mother, So she had to protect her family. At all costs, and 487 00:36:47,679 --> 00:36:52,719 I think that's what she did. You had spoken earlier about feeling like you 488 00:36:52,800 --> 00:36:55,360 wanted to make sure that Lana Turner had her agency back and her voice back. 489 00:36:55,400 --> 00:36:58,960 Do you feel like you accomplished that for her? I hope so, 490 00:36:59,239 --> 00:37:01,360 I'd like to think so. I think the way I ended the book because 491 00:37:01,480 --> 00:37:07,119 Lana had a career much longer than nineteen fifty eight, but I wanted to 492 00:37:07,280 --> 00:37:10,679 end it with a very triumphant moment for not only Lana, but for her 493 00:37:10,760 --> 00:37:15,239 daughter and her mother. And it was amazing to me that Lana outlasted all 494 00:37:15,320 --> 00:37:21,320 of her enemies and so she I think she does get her voice back, 495 00:37:21,360 --> 00:37:23,760 her agency back, and I hope with this book, or reputation back as 496 00:37:23,760 --> 00:37:29,159 well. The book is a murder in Hollywood, the untold story of Tinseltown's 497 00:37:29,159 --> 00:37:32,599 most shocking crime. What's next on the agenda for you, mister Sherman. 498 00:37:32,679 --> 00:37:37,519 I know you're always working, Yeah, so I have just I'm completing my 499 00:37:37,639 --> 00:37:43,719 seventeenth book as we speak. It's called Deadly Depths and it's another New England 500 00:37:43,760 --> 00:37:47,400 story, but it's a story that made national headlines back in twenty sixteen when 501 00:37:47,400 --> 00:37:52,840 a young man with Aspergers syndrome, took his mother on a deep sea fishing 502 00:37:52,880 --> 00:37:55,800 trip off the coast of Rhode Island, and she never came up. She 503 00:37:55,880 --> 00:38:00,760 never came back, and he was later discovered by on a life raft after 504 00:38:00,880 --> 00:38:06,119 seven days at sea by a Chinese cargo ship. Right, there is a 505 00:38:06,159 --> 00:38:09,840 story that's worth telling, but turns out years prior to that episode, this 506 00:38:09,960 --> 00:38:15,920 young man was also accused of murdering his multimillionaire grandfather in his bed in Connecticut. 507 00:38:16,400 --> 00:38:20,079 So this really makes the Murdo's story. Look, this is the Murdo 508 00:38:20,199 --> 00:38:23,320 story on steroids. Yeah really, I will say that. Of course, 509 00:38:23,400 --> 00:38:29,199 I always come into these projects with my eyes wide open and the story is 510 00:38:29,320 --> 00:38:31,559 not what I thought it was going into it. And that's what I love 511 00:38:31,599 --> 00:38:36,599 about the work I do. I love to be changed and turned around by 512 00:38:36,639 --> 00:38:38,639 the facts and the evidence. And I can't wait to get this story out 513 00:38:38,639 --> 00:38:43,920 there as well. Wow, So when will Deadly Depths come out? If 514 00:38:43,960 --> 00:38:47,159 all goes according to plan twenty twenty five or yeah, twenty twenty five, 515 00:38:47,199 --> 00:38:51,599 we're going to let a murder in Hollywood breathe this year. Same publisher. 516 00:38:51,599 --> 00:38:54,360 I've got a great relationship with Source Books. They've been my They were my 517 00:38:54,400 --> 00:38:59,800 publisher for Helltown and they're like family to me. So we're looking at twenty 518 00:38:59,800 --> 00:39:02,159 twin Me five for Deadly Debts, and then I've got a few other ideas 519 00:39:02,280 --> 00:39:06,320 kicking around my head right now. And are we going to see you at 520 00:39:06,400 --> 00:39:09,400 Crime Con again in June. We've got a really fast turnaround on crime Con 521 00:39:09,440 --> 00:39:14,320 this year, good time. So I'm talking to my marketing team at Source 522 00:39:14,360 --> 00:39:17,239 Books right now just about that. So if they're there and they have a 523 00:39:17,280 --> 00:39:20,360 presence, then I'm sure they're going to want me there. Yeah, in 524 00:39:20,400 --> 00:39:22,880 Nashville, right, Yeah, Nashville. Well, we'll be there with bells 525 00:39:22,920 --> 00:39:27,440 on, so we hope to be there too. And the book A Murder 526 00:39:27,440 --> 00:39:31,239 in Hollywood, the owntelled story of Tinseltown's most shocking crime, is available February 527 00:39:31,280 --> 00:39:36,039 thirteenth, wherever books are sold. Casey, thank you so much for joining 528 00:39:36,119 --> 00:39:38,119 us today. We appreciate it. Thank you guys, always a pleasure. 529 00:39:38,119 --> 00:39:42,079 I appreciate it. That's going to do it for this episode of Mind Never 530 00:39:42,199 --> 00:39:45,400 Murder. Thank you so much for listening. We'll see you next time. 531 00:39:53,679 --> 00:40:00,440 Mind Over Murder is a production of Absolute Zero and Another Dog Productions. Our 532 00:40:00,480 --> 00:40:05,760 executive producers are Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilley. Our logo art is by Pamela 533 00:40:05,920 --> 00:40:10,320 Arnois. Our theme music is by Kevin McLeod. Mind Over Murder is distributed 534 00:40:10,360 --> 00:40:15,519 in partnership with Coral Space Media. You can follow us on Facebook, Twitter, 535 00:40:15,639 --> 00:40:20,719 or Instagram. You can also follow our page on the Colonial Parkway Murders 536 00:40:20,800 --> 00:40:24,199 on Facebook, and finally, you can follow Bill Thomas on Twitter at Bill 537 00:40:24,239 --> 00:41:06,119 Thomas five six. Thank you for listening to mind Over Murder.