WEBVTT 1 00:00:03.919 --> 00:00:08.839 You are listening to the IFH podcast Network. For more amazing filmmaking and screenwriting 2 00:00:08.880 --> 00:00:15.039 podcasts, just go to ifahpodcastnetwork dot com. Welcome to the Bulletproof Screenwriting Podcast, 3 00:00:15.119 --> 00:00:18.879 Episode number one seventy two. Obstacles are what you see when you take 4 00:00:18.879 --> 00:00:24.600 your eyes off the goal. Anonymous broadcasting from a dark, windowless room in 5 00:00:24.600 --> 00:00:28.920 Hollywood when we really should be working on that next draft. It's the Bulletproof 6 00:00:28.960 --> 00:00:33.880 Screenwriting Podcast, showing you the craft and business of screenwriting while teaching you how 7 00:00:33.880 --> 00:00:40.119 to make your screenplay bulletproof. And here's your host, Alex Ferrari. Welcome, 8 00:00:40.159 --> 00:00:43.240 Welcome to another episode of the Bulletproof Screenwriting Podcast. I am your humble 9 00:00:43.240 --> 00:00:48.759 host Alex Ferrari. Now, today's show is sponsored by Bulletproof script Coverage. 10 00:00:48.960 --> 00:00:54.880 Now. Unlike other script coverage services, Bulletproof Script Coverage actually focuses on the 11 00:00:55.000 --> 00:00:58.799 kind of project you are and the goals of the project you are, so 12 00:00:58.840 --> 00:01:02.679 we actually break it down by three categories, micro budget, indie film, 13 00:01:02.679 --> 00:01:06.359 market and studio film. There's no reason to get coverage from a reader that's 14 00:01:06.439 --> 00:01:10.000 used to reading tempole movies when your movie is going to be done for one 15 00:01:10.040 --> 00:01:12.560 hundred thousand dollars, and we wanted to focus on that. At Bulletproof Script 16 00:01:12.560 --> 00:01:18.560 Coverage, our readers have worked with Marvel Studios, CIA, WME, NBC, 17 00:01:18.799 --> 00:01:22.640 HBO, Disney, Scott Free, Warner Brothers, The Blacklist, and 18 00:01:22.760 --> 00:01:26.560 many many more. So if you need your screenplay or TV script covered by 19 00:01:26.640 --> 00:01:33.560 professional readers, head on over to covermiscreenplay dot Com. Well, guys, 20 00:01:33.599 --> 00:01:38.480 today on the show we have director Joe Wright. Now. Joe is known 21 00:01:38.519 --> 00:01:44.319 for directing films like Pride and Prejudice, Atonement, one of my favorites, 22 00:01:44.439 --> 00:01:49.200 Hannah, The Soloist starring Jamie Fox and Robert Downey, Junior, The Darkest 23 00:01:49.239 --> 00:01:55.799 Hour starring, of course, Academy Award winner Gary Olman, and his newest 24 00:01:55.799 --> 00:02:00.400 film Sirrao starring Peter dinklic Now, Joe opened up a lot in this conversation 25 00:02:00.519 --> 00:02:07.120 with me about his process about you know, feeling not you know, having 26 00:02:07.120 --> 00:02:12.800 imposter syndrome, which so many amazing artists go through, how he deals with 27 00:02:12.840 --> 00:02:16.319 it, how he deals with problems on set, how he works his whole 28 00:02:16.360 --> 00:02:21.759 process, and it's just a really really interesting conversation. So, without any 29 00:02:21.800 --> 00:02:28.319 further ado, please enjoy my conversation with Joe Wright. I'd like to welcome 30 00:02:28.360 --> 00:02:30.280 to the show, Joe right. How are you doing, Joe? I 31 00:02:30.319 --> 00:02:34.759 am excellent. Thank you, I'm very well. Thank you so much for 32 00:02:34.800 --> 00:02:37.960 coming on this show. I've been a fan of your work for quite some 33 00:02:38.120 --> 00:02:40.400 time, so I'm excited to kind of dive into the weeds with you on 34 00:02:42.599 --> 00:02:46.120 your career. So, first and foremost, how did you and why did 35 00:02:46.159 --> 00:02:51.879 you want to get into this insane business? I don't know. I mean, 36 00:02:51.919 --> 00:02:57.360 I think I'd like to be able to tell you a story that clearly 37 00:02:57.800 --> 00:03:04.280 illustrates a particular moment in my life when I knew I was going to be 38 00:03:04.319 --> 00:03:10.199 a filmmaker. But it was more incremental than that. I knew. I 39 00:03:10.240 --> 00:03:15.280 always knew that I wanted to be in drama. Somehow. My parents were 40 00:03:15.319 --> 00:03:23.199 puppeteers, and they did, you know, puppet shows for adults and kids, 41 00:03:23.439 --> 00:03:27.840 And so I grew up in this kind of fantasy world of fairy tales, 42 00:03:29.599 --> 00:03:35.319 which was no preparation at all for the harsh reality of contemporary life. 43 00:03:36.719 --> 00:03:43.680 I went to a drama club after school where you paid the equivalent of like 44 00:03:43.879 --> 00:03:49.039 ten cents a lesson, and you went and did improvisation workshops with other kids 45 00:03:49.120 --> 00:03:58.879 from the local area. That was an important kind of stepping stone. I 46 00:03:59.000 --> 00:04:05.960 hung around in a pub in Islington in London that was you know a lot 47 00:04:05.960 --> 00:04:10.639 of actors went there and writers and people, and there was a little theater 48 00:04:10.840 --> 00:04:17.720 upstairs where people put on shows. But running parallel to that was a was 49 00:04:17.759 --> 00:04:21.560 a passion for film from you know, the age of six. I remember 50 00:04:21.639 --> 00:04:28.279 asking my mum how films were made. And she happened, weirdly to have 51 00:04:28.360 --> 00:04:33.079 a long strip of cartridge paper and we we drew a picture. She drew 52 00:04:33.079 --> 00:04:39.319 a picture of a prince and a princess and then divided that to another square, 53 00:04:39.600 --> 00:04:43.040 and there was a dragon, and the dragon came and stole the princess 54 00:04:43.199 --> 00:04:46.800 and and told the story of George and the dragon. And then we we 55 00:04:46.959 --> 00:04:50.800 cut a hole in the lid of a shoe box and wound this paper through 56 00:04:51.120 --> 00:04:56.480 this aperture. And she said, that's that's how you make films. It's 57 00:04:56.519 --> 00:05:04.199 a it's storytelling with hi is one after the other. And and I guess 58 00:05:04.319 --> 00:05:09.519 that kind of set my whole imagination on fire. At an early age, 59 00:05:09.920 --> 00:05:14.319 was there a film that there was an idea to be an actor? I 60 00:05:14.319 --> 00:05:16.439 thought I might be an actor. You see and my plan was to be 61 00:05:16.480 --> 00:05:21.759 a very famous actor, obviously, because you're not going to plan to be 62 00:05:21.800 --> 00:05:27.240 a you know, out of work actor. Uh And and then through acting 63 00:05:27.319 --> 00:05:34.480 I was gonna I was going to move into directing. However, I set 64 00:05:34.519 --> 00:05:41.120 around on my ass for you know, a year, waiting for the phone 65 00:05:41.160 --> 00:05:45.160 to ring, and nothing much happened. And then my dad had a stroke 66 00:05:45.800 --> 00:05:47.439 and I thought, okay, I need to do something with my life. 67 00:05:47.480 --> 00:05:50.720 So I went to art school, and at art school, I was, 68 00:05:51.000 --> 00:05:55.959 you know, I gave up acting and I and I just started making short 69 00:05:56.000 --> 00:06:00.360 films. To answer your question, there are many films that that influenced me 70 00:06:00.439 --> 00:06:05.720 along the way. I think David Lean's Great Expectations was one of those, 71 00:06:06.600 --> 00:06:14.519 especially the power of the graveyard scene and when Pitt runs into Magwitch. And 72 00:06:14.560 --> 00:06:18.160 then, you know, when I was about fifteen, in the same summer, 73 00:06:18.519 --> 00:06:30.519 I saw for the first time Taxi Driver and Blue Velvet, and I 74 00:06:30.600 --> 00:06:32.160 thought, you know, I thought Blue Velvet was a comedy. Actually, 75 00:06:34.240 --> 00:06:39.959 I watched and rewatched those films over that summer, and I think they really 76 00:06:40.720 --> 00:06:46.000 had a huge impact on my understanding of what a director does. Actually, 77 00:06:46.759 --> 00:06:50.120 that's amazing, now, how you say you were doing shorts. There's a 78 00:06:50.120 --> 00:06:54.879 short called Crocodile Snap. How did you get that short off the ground, 79 00:06:54.879 --> 00:06:57.680 get the money, get the everything to kind of put that thing together? 80 00:07:00.680 --> 00:07:04.560 Well, I that was after I left college, and I'd made a short 81 00:07:04.600 --> 00:07:13.079 film at college which had won a prize. And the guy who gave out 82 00:07:13.160 --> 00:07:20.439 the prizes for Fujifilm, the guy was his name is Jeremie Howe, and 83 00:07:20.480 --> 00:07:24.680 he wrote to me saying he liked my movie, you know at my short 84 00:07:24.720 --> 00:07:31.399 film and he ran a BBC series called ten by ten, which was ten 85 00:07:31.480 --> 00:07:41.439 short films of ten minutes. And I called his receptionist every day, bugging 86 00:07:41.519 --> 00:07:45.879 her, and I think I bugged her to the extent that in the end 87 00:07:46.000 --> 00:07:54.519 she told me where he was having a meeting that day, and she said, 88 00:07:54.519 --> 00:07:56.920 if you want to talk to him, just go down there and talk 89 00:07:56.959 --> 00:08:01.040 to him. And I turned up and I hung around. It was the 90 00:08:01.120 --> 00:08:07.639 Royal Institute of British Architects, and I hung around this very imposing institution for 91 00:08:09.639 --> 00:08:15.079 three or four hours until he finally came out and I said, Jeremy, 92 00:08:15.120 --> 00:08:18.959 so I need to talk to you about this film and and he said, 93 00:08:20.000 --> 00:08:24.319 well, I'm very late, but you've got between here and Googe Street subway 94 00:08:24.360 --> 00:08:33.879 station to pitch. And so that four or five minutes of that walk really 95 00:08:35.000 --> 00:08:39.840 changed my life because I managed to persuade him to let me do this short 96 00:08:39.879 --> 00:08:45.320 film. And listen, I'm talking about three thousand dollars probably budget, but 97 00:08:45.399 --> 00:08:48.919 to me that was an astronomical amount of money and inconceivable for me to get 98 00:08:48.960 --> 00:08:56.679 hand in my hands off and he he commissioned this short film and then that 99 00:08:58.559 --> 00:09:05.879 got nominated for a Bafter And from there I was kind of on, we'll 100 00:09:05.879 --> 00:09:11.759 be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the 101 00:09:11.799 --> 00:09:20.360 show, the very early stages of some kind of ladder. Now, how 102 00:09:20.399 --> 00:09:24.840 did you make the jump from a three thousand dollars short to directing Pride and 103 00:09:24.840 --> 00:09:28.480 Prejudice, which is a bit more than three thousand dollars if I'm not mistaken, 104 00:09:28.399 --> 00:09:31.279 Yeah, well I was. I was very lucky. I mean I 105 00:09:31.360 --> 00:09:37.879 always tell sort of young filmmakers who are trying to figure out how to how 106 00:09:37.919 --> 00:09:41.600 to get into the business, how to gain experience. I always tell them 107 00:09:41.639 --> 00:09:48.519 to hang around actors and basically to find if there's a if there's a little 108 00:09:48.519 --> 00:09:56.240 fringe theater, if there's an actors workshop. If there's anything that involves actors 109 00:09:56.360 --> 00:10:01.360 putting on shows telling stories, that's your best bet. And as I mentioned 110 00:10:01.360 --> 00:10:05.960 before, there was this pub in Islington called the Old Red Lion, and 111 00:10:07.799 --> 00:10:16.720 drinking in this pub was this incredibly important character called Kathy Burke, who is 112 00:10:16.759 --> 00:10:20.399 an actor and director and writer. She won the Palm door for Gary Oldman's 113 00:10:20.480 --> 00:10:26.440 Nil by Mouth and she was very influential and every time I made a short 114 00:10:26.480 --> 00:10:31.440 film, I'd give her a VHS copy of my short film, and without 115 00:10:31.559 --> 00:10:35.399 telling me, every time I did that, she would pass that on to 116 00:10:35.879 --> 00:10:41.120 this producer friend at the BBC. And so one day I got a call 117 00:10:41.320 --> 00:10:46.919 out of the blue saying will you come in to the BBC to meet Catherine 118 00:10:46.960 --> 00:10:52.600 Wearing who is this producer? And I went along and it was in the 119 00:10:52.720 --> 00:10:56.039 days where you could still smoke in offices and I couldn't see her through the 120 00:10:56.080 --> 00:11:05.960 mist of tobacco smoke, although it did smell a bit odd, and through 121 00:11:05.000 --> 00:11:11.320 the smoke I heard this raspy voice say, so would you like to do 122 00:11:11.360 --> 00:11:16.240 a three part drama for the BBC? And I could have, you know, 123 00:11:16.399 --> 00:11:20.600 my heart jumped out of my mouth and I tried to play it very 124 00:11:20.639 --> 00:11:26.960 cool and said, yeah, well, it depends on the script. Less 125 00:11:26.000 --> 00:11:30.240 us for everyone learning. If you're in the room and they offer you something 126 00:11:30.279 --> 00:11:33.399 like this, you gotta act cool. You can't just lose your ear crap 127 00:11:33.519 --> 00:11:39.679 right there, right there. So it depends on the script. And and 128 00:11:39.879 --> 00:11:43.559 you know, she she sent me the first episode and I was actually bowled 129 00:11:43.559 --> 00:11:50.480 over by it. It was a really beautiful piece of writing called nature Boy, 130 00:11:50.200 --> 00:11:56.559 and I was suddenly directing at the age of twenty six. I was 131 00:11:56.600 --> 00:12:05.440 directing three one hour episodes, so three hours of television a budget of I 132 00:12:05.480 --> 00:12:11.399 think three point four million pounds, So that was a huge steep learning cove. 133 00:12:11.440 --> 00:12:16.360 And then I made about fourteen hours of television. I did about Yeah, 134 00:12:16.399 --> 00:12:20.639 I did three or four TV projects, each one kind of bigger than 135 00:12:20.639 --> 00:12:26.919 the last. And then one day I was asked to go and meet working 136 00:12:26.960 --> 00:12:31.919 title to talk about Pride and Prejudice. So yeah, so it wasn't like, 137 00:12:31.519 --> 00:12:33.480 oh, I just made a three thousand hours movie and they just give 138 00:12:33.480 --> 00:12:39.279 you Pride and prejudice. You had built a career. It was great. 139 00:12:39.440 --> 00:12:41.240 It was great because people say, wow, you're you know this, this 140 00:12:41.320 --> 00:12:48.320 is the first time film director, as if I was somehow you know, 141 00:12:48.720 --> 00:12:54.440 blessed from heaven with this kind of ability to make you know, to know 142 00:12:54.480 --> 00:12:58.240 how to make movies at that level, at that level, at that level, 143 00:12:58.320 --> 00:13:03.600 it was very hard, hard one and I and I didn't tell anyone 144 00:13:03.799 --> 00:13:09.960 that really I was quite you know, reasonably experienced in TV. I let 145 00:13:09.039 --> 00:13:16.240 them believe the myth of of of talent. But but yeah, it was 146 00:13:16.879 --> 00:13:24.879 the teacher that that that improvisation workshop always used to say it's ninety to nine 147 00:13:24.919 --> 00:13:31.639 percent inspira ninety nine percent perspiration and one percent inspiration. And I think that 148 00:13:31.759 --> 00:13:35.840 was that was very, very true. Now you've worked with some remarkable actors 149 00:13:35.919 --> 00:13:39.759 in your career, how do you approach it? Do you have any advice 150 00:13:39.960 --> 00:13:46.720 on directing actors because you've been able to you know, pull or collaborate on 151 00:13:46.759 --> 00:13:54.559 some amazing performances. Yeah, I mean, I think I think I think 152 00:13:54.600 --> 00:14:03.600 the fact that I used to act as a kid, uh means that I 153 00:14:03.600 --> 00:14:11.080 I never I never shrouded the craft in this kind of mystic reverie. Do 154 00:14:11.080 --> 00:14:15.080 you know what I mean? People people think of actors as almost being like 155 00:14:15.720 --> 00:14:22.919 witches or you know, warlock. This strange kind of alchemy happens and somehow 156 00:14:22.960 --> 00:14:30.759 they're able to do this thing, shape shift. It's it's a it's certainly 157 00:14:30.799 --> 00:14:37.120 an art. Acting is certainly an art, but it's also a craft. 158 00:14:37.480 --> 00:14:48.679 And I approach actors as crafts people, as collaborators. I am completely open 159 00:14:48.720 --> 00:14:54.000 with them about the process. I don't I don't expose my fears too much 160 00:14:54.240 --> 00:14:58.360 to them, because they need bolstering. They need to believe that you believe 161 00:15:00.480 --> 00:15:03.919 even when you don't. But I but I share the process. I tell 162 00:15:03.960 --> 00:15:07.679 them exactly what the story is that we're trying to, you know, trying 163 00:15:07.720 --> 00:15:13.639 to tell. I make them a part of it. And I I don't 164 00:15:13.679 --> 00:15:18.559 bullshit them either. Excuse language. I don't, I don't try and kind 165 00:15:18.559 --> 00:15:26.600 of, you know, I think they often get infantilized. And if if 166 00:15:26.600 --> 00:15:33.639 you treat actors like children, they'll behave like children, where you give them 167 00:15:33.679 --> 00:15:46.519 the respect of intelligence, then then they'll reciprocate intelligently. And yeah, and 168 00:15:46.600 --> 00:15:52.679 I think it's it's really it's really just talking straight to them and not not 169 00:15:52.799 --> 00:15:54.000 kind of you know. I remember, I remember, you know, there 170 00:15:54.000 --> 00:15:58.279 are tricks, you know. But I remember talking to Kieran Knightley on on 171 00:15:58.240 --> 00:16:03.559 pride and prejudice and and and saying listen, your head of department. Right, 172 00:16:03.879 --> 00:16:07.480 There's there's the camera department, there's the art department, there's the acting 173 00:16:07.559 --> 00:16:12.279 department, and it's a department like any other department in telling this story. 174 00:16:12.360 --> 00:16:18.360 And you, as the lead actor, the head of department, and therefore, 175 00:16:18.559 --> 00:16:22.399 as head of department, any new department member that comes in on a 176 00:16:22.519 --> 00:16:26.840 day to do a couple of lines, your job is to make them feel 177 00:16:26.879 --> 00:16:30.799 welcome and ask them if they're okay, and support them, you know. 178 00:16:32.200 --> 00:16:37.919 Uh. And that was a trick that really worked because it it grounded her 179 00:16:37.519 --> 00:16:45.200 and it meant that every supporting actor that came in therefore supported her because she 180 00:16:45.360 --> 00:16:48.399 had reached out as a you know, as the head of department. That's 181 00:16:48.200 --> 00:16:52.120 a that's an amazing ture. I've never heard that that technique before. That's 182 00:16:52.159 --> 00:16:56.159 a really great technique to you, Gary Oldman. That But Pira was only 183 00:16:56.200 --> 00:17:02.399 eighteen, so it also. I mean the other thing with actors is that 184 00:17:02.519 --> 00:17:10.440 generally they are all different and you have to figure out what makes them tick 185 00:17:11.839 --> 00:17:19.160 and then you know and then and then and then play to their specific yeah 186 00:17:19.319 --> 00:17:23.720 strengths and stuff. So so do you I always tell act I always tell 187 00:17:23.759 --> 00:17:29.279 filmmakers this is that as a director, you really need to create a safe 188 00:17:29.319 --> 00:17:32.559 space for the actor. If the actor doesn't feel that they're in a safe 189 00:17:32.599 --> 00:17:36.559 space where they can really go on out on a limb, you know, 190 00:17:36.720 --> 00:17:40.359 with their craft, if they feel they have to protect themselves, that's when 191 00:17:40.359 --> 00:17:42.839 the problems start. Is that is that your experience? I think that's a 192 00:17:42.839 --> 00:17:47.640 brilliant piece of advice. Absolutely. I think I think, you know, 193 00:17:49.039 --> 00:17:55.559 we're all exposed, We're all, you know, uh, scared of being 194 00:17:55.720 --> 00:17:59.920 judged. Am I a good director? Am I a good boom operator? 195 00:18:00.240 --> 00:18:03.200 You know? Am I doing okay? But for the actor there in front 196 00:18:03.240 --> 00:18:10.039 of the camera, and that's a whole nother level of vulnerability, And therefore 197 00:18:10.240 --> 00:18:15.359 you have to support them and and and create that safe space, which is 198 00:18:15.359 --> 00:18:18.079 one of the reasons why I do rehearsals. I do a lot of rehearsals 199 00:18:18.079 --> 00:18:25.440 prior to shooting two or three weeks for a movie, and that is partly 200 00:18:25.519 --> 00:18:29.599 about learning each other's rhythms and so on, but it's also about just getting 201 00:18:29.640 --> 00:18:33.559 to know each other and getting to a point where they feel yeah, safe, 202 00:18:33.599 --> 00:18:37.640 looked after, and comfortable and comfortable with each other. Because if there's 203 00:18:37.680 --> 00:18:41.200 going to be any issues I'd rather be in rehearsal. Then. As far 204 00:18:41.279 --> 00:18:47.880 as personality conflicts or techniques, one's method, ones not method. Things like 205 00:18:47.880 --> 00:18:49.880 that, You've got to figure all that stuff out in a much cheaper environment 206 00:18:51.200 --> 00:18:56.759 and much Yeah, your cheapest days of your rehearsal days. But also, 207 00:18:56.079 --> 00:19:00.200 you know, two other things. I think it's really important to like your 208 00:19:00.240 --> 00:19:04.440 actors. So when you're casting, you have to figure out whether you like 209 00:19:04.559 --> 00:19:08.000 this person because you're going to have to talk to them a lot. And 210 00:19:08.079 --> 00:19:11.799 I find it personally, I find it difficult to talk to people I don't 211 00:19:11.920 --> 00:19:17.480 like. One do I like them? And two do I respect their intelligence? 212 00:19:17.599 --> 00:19:21.279 Because there's a there's a kind of myth that goes around the you know, 213 00:19:21.359 --> 00:19:26.559 the Airhead actors. We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor, 214 00:19:30.680 --> 00:19:40.160 and now back to the show. The most successful actors I've ever met 215 00:19:40.240 --> 00:19:44.240 are the most intelligent people I've ever met, you know, to be that, 216 00:19:44.480 --> 00:19:49.599 you know, Tom Cruise is incredibly smart. You know, Nicole Kidman 217 00:19:49.799 --> 00:19:55.720 incredibly smart, Gary Oldman incredibly smart. These people are really really smart. 218 00:19:56.839 --> 00:20:00.480 They're not you know, And intelligence, as in you know, as with 219 00:20:00.799 --> 00:20:07.759 music or science or politics, plays an enormous part in the ability to act. 220 00:20:07.279 --> 00:20:11.240 Now, do you storyboard by any chairs, because I mean you paint 221 00:20:11.279 --> 00:20:19.640 on such big canvases. I storyboard when the sequence involves very specific ideas of 222 00:20:19.799 --> 00:20:26.680 montage. When I'm interested in how one image cuts to another, I'll draw 223 00:20:26.759 --> 00:20:30.119 those two pictures and put them next to each other on a piece of paper 224 00:20:30.160 --> 00:20:33.680 and see how they work together. If it's a long developing shot or a 225 00:20:33.680 --> 00:20:40.839 long steady cam shot, then I don't because I don't find it useful. 226 00:20:40.880 --> 00:20:45.599 But I storyboard everything I do, and often also what I'll do is I'll 227 00:20:45.720 --> 00:20:52.039 get plans of the set and then just mark out diagrams of the camera moves, 228 00:20:52.200 --> 00:20:56.240 the direction, the light direction in particular, so that my DP can 229 00:20:56.319 --> 00:21:00.440 pre light confidently knowing that that's the direction I'm going to be looking in. 230 00:21:02.759 --> 00:21:07.000 So I plan very very carefully, but not always storyboarding. Very cool. 231 00:21:07.039 --> 00:21:11.960 Now, there's one film that you made that is one of my favorites, 232 00:21:11.000 --> 00:21:14.720 and when it came out, I saw the trailer and it blew me away. 233 00:21:15.039 --> 00:21:19.319 Hannah. I absolutely loved Hannah, and it was kind of like a 234 00:21:19.440 --> 00:21:22.680 revelation when it came out. It was obviously a big, very big success, 235 00:21:22.720 --> 00:21:27.319 even spawned off a very successful television show at this point. How did 236 00:21:27.359 --> 00:21:33.640 you get involved with Hannah and and how did you bring that that energy that 237 00:21:33.640 --> 00:21:41.720 that movie has. It's so so wonderful. Thank you. Hannah. Happened 238 00:21:41.799 --> 00:21:48.759 because Sasha Ronan cooled me up and said, I want to make this film 239 00:21:48.799 --> 00:21:52.480 Hannah, and I want you to direct it. And I was like, 240 00:21:52.680 --> 00:22:00.440 great, all right, then let's do that. It was it. I 241 00:22:00.440 --> 00:22:04.720 mean, I'd worked obviously with Hannah on Atonement. I mean I'd worked obviously 242 00:22:04.759 --> 00:22:11.720 with with Sirsha on Atonement and she was eleven, yeah, she was a 243 00:22:11.799 --> 00:22:18.920 kid. Yeah, and then she was sixteen when we made Hannah, and 244 00:22:18.200 --> 00:22:23.240 it was something that you know that that Focus Features had sent her, and 245 00:22:23.359 --> 00:22:27.119 I guess she liked working with me and asked me to ask me to do 246 00:22:27.200 --> 00:22:33.240 it. And I read the script and it was interesting actually that that that 247 00:22:33.400 --> 00:22:38.119 process because there was the script I read. There was two credited writers, 248 00:22:38.160 --> 00:22:45.960 one of whom was a guy called Seth Lockhead. And the script was really 249 00:22:47.039 --> 00:22:52.480 uneven. It was really patchy. There were moments of kind of surreal flights 250 00:22:52.519 --> 00:22:57.319 of fantasy that I'd never encountered in a kind of certainly not in an action 251 00:22:57.480 --> 00:23:07.119 movie. This strange almost sort of hallucinatory experience. And then there were the 252 00:23:07.119 --> 00:23:15.240 there are bits that were like purely procedural kind of action spy thriller stuff, 253 00:23:15.799 --> 00:23:18.559 and so I kind of questioned what that was about and discovered that actually the 254 00:23:18.599 --> 00:23:23.480 studio had been scared of Seth Lockhead's original original script, which was the kind 255 00:23:23.519 --> 00:23:29.960 of more hallucinatory thing, and that they'd brought on another writer to write the 256 00:23:30.000 --> 00:23:33.279 more procedural stuff and kind of tame it down. So I I I basically 257 00:23:33.319 --> 00:23:38.880 went back to Seth, and he and I worked on developing his flavor and 258 00:23:38.920 --> 00:23:47.160 his ideas more fully but also kind of practically so that it was actually shootable. 259 00:23:48.759 --> 00:23:51.440 Yeah, and and and and I and I bring you know, I 260 00:23:51.920 --> 00:23:57.880 work very closely with writers. Every film I make is extremely personal and uh, 261 00:23:57.920 --> 00:24:07.400 and so there were elements that I was you know, there was stuff 262 00:24:07.440 --> 00:24:11.960 I was angry at the world at the time. Something had happened to a 263 00:24:11.960 --> 00:24:18.240 friend of mine, a woman who had been Yeah, something bad had happened 264 00:24:18.240 --> 00:24:27.680 to her, and so the film was a kind of m innocent outsider's view 265 00:24:29.160 --> 00:24:37.039 of this crazy world in which she was born into. And I guess those 266 00:24:37.279 --> 00:24:40.440 that horrible thing that happened to your friend in this script at the same time 267 00:24:41.240 --> 00:24:45.799 kind of came together at that moment where that energy and that anger you might 268 00:24:45.839 --> 00:24:52.400 have been perfectly fit that that film. I kind of I don't know. 269 00:24:52.480 --> 00:24:59.200 I don't you know, I'm I think things seemed to if you allow them 270 00:24:59.240 --> 00:25:02.599 to, thinks seem to happen at the right moment. I'm not much, 271 00:25:02.799 --> 00:25:08.440 you know, I'm not. I don't really I'm not. I'm not really 272 00:25:08.480 --> 00:25:12.720 into the idea of an interventionist god. But I do believe that if you 273 00:25:12.920 --> 00:25:18.039 get into the flow of things, things happen as they should. Yeah, 274 00:25:18.480 --> 00:25:22.319 I've been given the advice is like, don't push the river. The river 275 00:25:22.519 --> 00:25:25.759 is going to the river is flowing with little without you. You're trying to 276 00:25:25.759 --> 00:25:30.319 push it, It's only going to make you tired, exactly. It makes 277 00:25:30.359 --> 00:25:34.319 me. Really I've tried it. Oh yeah, I've spent a lot of 278 00:25:34.359 --> 00:25:37.799 my career trying it. Like, can we get this one little project pushed 279 00:25:37.799 --> 00:25:40.640 a little bit more? Can we get just a little bit more money? 280 00:25:40.839 --> 00:25:45.079 Just let it, just let it happen, let it go. Now. 281 00:25:45.000 --> 00:25:49.799 As directors, you know, we always find I'm sorry, as they say 282 00:25:49.839 --> 00:25:59.440 in Frozen, just let it just you read my mind oh oh god, 283 00:25:59.440 --> 00:26:03.079 I think either over that phase, oh my god, Oh my god. 284 00:26:03.200 --> 00:26:07.680 Anyway, anyway, anyway, so as directors, there's always a day that 285 00:26:07.759 --> 00:26:12.920 we have that the world, we feel like the world is coming crashing down 286 00:26:12.960 --> 00:26:18.160 around us on a shoot day or in the middle of a movie and and 287 00:26:18.359 --> 00:26:19.799 oh my god, how are we going to get through this? Whether that 288 00:26:19.880 --> 00:26:23.319 be the camera fell into the lake, we're losing the light, the actor 289 00:26:23.440 --> 00:26:27.519 broke their leg, something happens that you feel like, I don't know how 290 00:26:27.519 --> 00:26:30.880 I'm going to get through this. What was that day for you? And 291 00:26:30.960 --> 00:26:33.799 how did you overcome that day? Is there a day in your in your 292 00:26:33.799 --> 00:26:38.759 career that you can that you can say publicly? Usually usually right, it 293 00:26:38.920 --> 00:26:45.720 usually happens at about four o'clock every day, every day, every day. 294 00:26:45.519 --> 00:26:48.920 You think you're going along fine. You know, you've you've started the morning 295 00:26:48.960 --> 00:26:57.160 with confidence in your plan, and and maybe you've taken a little bit too 296 00:26:57.200 --> 00:27:02.920 long over rehearsals or setting up that shot or this shot, and and you've 297 00:27:02.920 --> 00:27:06.720 got you know, three scenes to get through, and then suddenly you go, 298 00:27:06.839 --> 00:27:08.680 oh god, it's lunchtime, and I've only done you know, half 299 00:27:08.680 --> 00:27:14.680 a scene or one scene. And then everyone's a bit slow coming back from 300 00:27:14.759 --> 00:27:19.480 lunch because they've had the apple pine custard and you're trying to get through. 301 00:27:19.720 --> 00:27:25.839 And then at about four o'clock you go, oh, you know, oh 302 00:27:25.920 --> 00:27:30.000 no, I have you know, two hours left and I've still got to 303 00:27:30.039 --> 00:27:34.920 do this three page scene. How am I gonna ever get through the day? 304 00:27:37.799 --> 00:27:47.200 And you get through it by by economizing. Basically, you get through 305 00:27:47.240 --> 00:27:59.559 it by figuring out what the essentials of that scene are and shooting that and 306 00:27:59.559 --> 00:28:07.319 and off, and those end up being the most interesting scenes because you haven't 307 00:28:07.559 --> 00:28:18.759 had the luxury of of you know, over articulation. So so I think 308 00:28:18.799 --> 00:28:22.400 often you know, and and in a way I'm beginning to try and apply 309 00:28:22.599 --> 00:28:27.039 that overall to the films I make, you know, to to just what 310 00:28:27.119 --> 00:28:33.480 are the essentials, what's important, and and stripping away the kind of the 311 00:28:33.759 --> 00:28:41.640 the the decoration if you like, uh, and and really listening to to 312 00:28:41.839 --> 00:28:45.960 the story. So that's the kind of general answer for you. I mean, 313 00:28:45.039 --> 00:28:51.799 certainly, the day that Mount Etna erupted whilst we were shooting the battle 314 00:28:51.839 --> 00:28:56.119 sequence of Syrno, that was a fairly catastrophic day, you know, that 315 00:28:56.240 --> 00:29:02.799 was the day I would say, We'll be right back after a word from 316 00:29:02.799 --> 00:29:11.000 our sponsor, and now back to the show. The only solution that day 317 00:29:11.079 --> 00:29:15.279 was to pick up the camera case and run. The hell with the day, 318 00:29:15.559 --> 00:29:19.279 the hell with your day. Yeah. I have no other advice for 319 00:29:21.359 --> 00:29:26.599 young filmmakers who happened to be facing a volcano erupting other than to say, 320 00:29:26.680 --> 00:29:30.720 run right forget the shot. I mean, if you can get the shot, 321 00:29:32.240 --> 00:29:33.799 maybe let the camera run for five more seconds, but then run. 322 00:29:33.960 --> 00:29:38.200 Yeah, and then run and then run and protect your head as well because 323 00:29:38.200 --> 00:29:41.559 they're projectile stones. Fruit. Well, you were that close, you were 324 00:29:41.599 --> 00:29:45.839 really there? Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. We shot a sequence and 325 00:29:47.960 --> 00:29:52.960 well, I mean, Jesus I laugh now right, but time I was 326 00:29:52.039 --> 00:29:59.920 literally crying. We had planned to shoot the battle sequence at sixteen thousand feet 327 00:30:00.559 --> 00:30:08.519 near the summit of Mount Etna, and four days prior to shooting there was 328 00:30:08.559 --> 00:30:18.240 an unprecedented snow storm and our set got buried in two meters of snow, 329 00:30:18.680 --> 00:30:25.279 including the one hundred foot techno that we've got up there, and the whole 330 00:30:25.279 --> 00:30:30.000 thing was completely inaccessible. So with only you know, four days notice, 331 00:30:30.039 --> 00:30:37.200 we had to reconceive the whole very complicated sequence anyway down to eight thousand feet 332 00:30:37.119 --> 00:30:41.480 and that was interesting to kind of go, Okay, I've got no set. 333 00:30:41.079 --> 00:30:45.480 I've got you know, a bunch of guys dressed as soldiers. I've 334 00:30:45.519 --> 00:30:48.680 got no set. I've got a camera and a tripod, and that is 335 00:30:48.799 --> 00:30:53.240 literally it. I've got no tricks to hide behind. You know, I 336 00:30:53.279 --> 00:30:57.640 can't even move the camera. I've got no track because I'm working on a 337 00:30:57.720 --> 00:31:03.880 kind of vitigenous volcanic slope. And to really kind of go, all right, 338 00:31:03.920 --> 00:31:07.680 what do I need to tell this story? How can I tell this 339 00:31:07.880 --> 00:31:15.920 story with these very few basic tools at my disposal? And that was that 340 00:31:15.960 --> 00:31:22.559 was fascinating. But yeah, then the then the volcano actually erupted, because 341 00:31:22.559 --> 00:31:26.839 I remember watching that sequence in Sereno and I was it was I mean, 342 00:31:26.839 --> 00:31:30.000 it was beautiful. And I'm thinking to myself because in today's world, you 343 00:31:30.079 --> 00:31:32.440 just don't know how much is visual effects? How much is you know, 344 00:31:32.480 --> 00:31:34.319 did he shoot this all on a green screen? Like how much of it 345 00:31:34.359 --> 00:31:38.559 was real? And I'm like when you said, because I've been at twelve 346 00:31:38.640 --> 00:31:45.599 thousand feet and it's I was having problems walking. I can only imagine trying 347 00:31:45.599 --> 00:31:51.559 to shoot at that level. It was brut It's absolutely brutal. It's like, 348 00:31:51.960 --> 00:31:56.079 it's absolutely brutal. But those scenes that in Sereno specifically, they were 349 00:31:56.160 --> 00:31:59.920 they were beautiful. There would be those war sequence but now knowing the back 350 00:32:00.079 --> 00:32:02.599 story behind it, I'm like, Okay, this makes sense, but that's 351 00:32:02.599 --> 00:32:07.160 but that's the thing is And I feel that as as filmmakers, if you're 352 00:32:07.200 --> 00:32:10.279 given two, if you're if you're if you, if you if I told 353 00:32:10.319 --> 00:32:15.599 you Joe, all you've got is time and money, which would be fun 354 00:32:15.599 --> 00:32:17.200 for a minute, but at a certain point you're just like, I need 355 00:32:17.279 --> 00:32:23.160 limitations in those limitations are what help you chisel down the fat on a scene. 356 00:32:23.920 --> 00:32:27.599 I've done it. I got time and money. I got you know, 357 00:32:27.640 --> 00:32:30.240 they gave me. They gave me one hundred and eighty million dollars to 358 00:32:30.279 --> 00:32:35.480 make pan right. I got, you know, all the tools I could 359 00:32:35.680 --> 00:32:42.880 could possibly want. And it was the biggest disaster of my career. Uh. 360 00:32:44.519 --> 00:32:49.720 Whereas you know, on a film like Atonement, for instance, I 361 00:32:49.799 --> 00:32:55.720 had one day to shoot a montage sequence of the beach at Dunkirk. I 362 00:32:55.799 --> 00:33:00.559 understood that there is no way I was going to be able to complete that 363 00:33:00.680 --> 00:33:04.839 sequence in a single date, given the tide coming in and out. My 364 00:33:05.000 --> 00:33:08.480 only solution therefore, which I thought was a pretty good creative solution was to 365 00:33:08.480 --> 00:33:14.200 shoot the whole thing in a single steadicam shot, and that, for a 366 00:33:14.240 --> 00:33:19.839 while was the was the shot that defined my career, you know. So 367 00:33:19.839 --> 00:33:28.799 so I do strongly, strongly believe in limitations liberating us creatively and and and 368 00:33:28.799 --> 00:33:37.039 and using you know, always having a kind of a positive solution based outlook, 369 00:33:37.599 --> 00:33:40.880 because generally what we're doing andlex you know, is to is to find 370 00:33:40.880 --> 00:33:44.920 solutions. There are a series of problems over the course of a day, 371 00:33:45.400 --> 00:33:55.000 and our job as as directors is to gather these people together and marshall them 372 00:33:55.119 --> 00:34:02.799 through the through the problems by finding solutions collectively. And those are creative solutions 373 00:34:02.799 --> 00:34:07.440 as well as practical solutions. If you're living deeply, deeply in the heart 374 00:34:07.480 --> 00:34:13.480 and head of the film, then those solutions will carry through the story and 375 00:34:13.559 --> 00:34:17.840 the themes that you're trying to express naturally. So, you know, as 376 00:34:17.880 --> 00:34:22.920 when you when you're on set, you know, especially at at the indie 377 00:34:22.920 --> 00:34:25.760 stage, there's a thousand questions, but I can only imagine at these one 378 00:34:25.880 --> 00:34:30.880 hundred and eighty million dollar stages. How do you what advice would you give 379 00:34:30.880 --> 00:34:36.840 filmmakers dealing with that barrage. You know young directors who are being asked every 380 00:34:36.880 --> 00:34:37.719 minute, what do you think of this? What do you want to do 381 00:34:37.719 --> 00:34:39.559 there? How do you do this? How do you move that? Because 382 00:34:39.559 --> 00:34:45.000 I mean, directing is essentially compromise, compromise, compromise. It's never what 383 00:34:45.079 --> 00:34:47.280 you want, but you know what I mean. So as far as answering 384 00:34:47.320 --> 00:34:51.280 and dealing with that kind of hurricane, because you're in the center of a 385 00:34:51.280 --> 00:34:54.239 little mini hurricane on every day as a director, Yeah, how would you 386 00:34:54.280 --> 00:34:59.239 approach? I love that. I love that failing I love be set. 387 00:35:00.119 --> 00:35:09.320 Yes, the two the two very kind of practical suggestions I would make a 388 00:35:10.800 --> 00:35:19.960 Well, I get up two hours before having to leave for set, and 389 00:35:20.000 --> 00:35:25.079 I spend those two hours reading the script and writing a shot list. Every 390 00:35:25.119 --> 00:35:29.480 morning I've done, I've already done, you know, first drafts of a 391 00:35:29.519 --> 00:35:34.840 shot list and or storyboards with my DP earlier. But I spend those two 392 00:35:34.840 --> 00:35:40.440 hours kind of very quietly contemplating what's really necessary and and what the story is 393 00:35:40.480 --> 00:35:47.760 that I'm trying to tell. So that's one thing that grounds me and and 394 00:35:47.760 --> 00:35:53.719 and helps me keep focused. And the other thing is when someone comes to 395 00:35:53.760 --> 00:35:59.760 you with a question. The first or an idea, which can be just 396 00:35:59.800 --> 00:36:05.960 as challenging sometimes, Uh is the first thing that comes out of your mouth 397 00:36:06.079 --> 00:36:15.039 is thank you, and that buys you a window of time to one bring 398 00:36:15.119 --> 00:36:22.039 your bring your panic and your ego down and just buys your little little window 399 00:36:22.159 --> 00:36:28.440 between their question or their suggestion and your answer. It just kind of is 400 00:36:28.440 --> 00:36:32.800 a magic word that breaks things down and then you can approach the question or 401 00:36:32.880 --> 00:36:37.920 the or the suggestion with a kind of clear, clear of ego. Really 402 00:36:39.400 --> 00:36:45.280 that's right, I say so, Nath, But it kind of works. 403 00:36:45.360 --> 00:36:47.119 You should try it. I mean, you can try it. Oh, 404 00:36:47.159 --> 00:36:50.639 no, it definitely, it definitely does be I mean I always, the 405 00:36:50.639 --> 00:36:53.639 best advice I've ever gotten on set is, uh, don't be a dick. 406 00:36:57.599 --> 00:36:59.960 Best advice in the business. Best you can get this, miss, 407 00:37:00.360 --> 00:37:06.280 There'll be a dick. Absolutely absolutely, that's a fundamental piece of advice. 408 00:37:06.840 --> 00:37:09.559 Now, you know, earlier in your career or I'm assuming throughout your career, 409 00:37:10.440 --> 00:37:14.840 you've got to deal with rejection. How do you deal with rejection? 410 00:37:14.960 --> 00:37:16.760 I'm sure there's projects that you wanted to get off the ground that didn't. 411 00:37:17.280 --> 00:37:20.639 You know, a lot of people think that, like, oh, once 412 00:37:20.639 --> 00:37:22.239 you get to a certain level, they just constantly all you got to do 413 00:37:22.280 --> 00:37:25.039 is make a phone call. They give you fifty million dollars or one hundred 414 00:37:25.039 --> 00:37:28.480 million dollars, and you just make whatever you want. And that's not your 415 00:37:28.559 --> 00:37:30.400 truth. You know, after talking to so many filmmakers over the years, 416 00:37:31.079 --> 00:37:34.519 I know that's not the true. But there's that kind of lore in the 417 00:37:35.119 --> 00:37:39.039 of young filmmakers thinking that, you know, people have to have that opportunity 418 00:37:39.039 --> 00:37:42.920 and they don't generally. How do you deal with those rejections? How do 419 00:37:42.920 --> 00:37:46.719 you keep moving forward? Well? I think I think you're absolutely right. 420 00:37:47.960 --> 00:37:52.239 There is no final destination. You don't. You know, there is no 421 00:37:53.559 --> 00:37:58.159 there's no arrival. You don't get somewhere and oh great, I mean it, 422 00:37:58.320 --> 00:38:01.440 I'm here from here and now people are going to let me make my 423 00:38:01.519 --> 00:38:09.960 films. That's certainly not my experience. I think I find I find rejection 424 00:38:10.360 --> 00:38:21.199 really hard, actually, and I haven't and I haven't yet found a very 425 00:38:21.280 --> 00:38:30.559 healthy way of dealing with it. But I you know, this is all 426 00:38:30.599 --> 00:38:36.480 I can do, right, Making movies is all I can do. I 427 00:38:36.519 --> 00:38:40.639 haven't got, you know, wealthy parents to lean back on. I haven't 428 00:38:40.639 --> 00:38:47.519 got any other source of income whatsoever. It's my job it's my vocation, 429 00:38:47.880 --> 00:38:53.480 and it's my life, and it's my heart and it's everything I love. 430 00:38:55.239 --> 00:39:00.719 Uh, it's also a spiritual practice, I believe. But but it's a 431 00:39:00.840 --> 00:39:05.639 job. You know. I got put food on the table, and so 432 00:39:05.960 --> 00:39:09.159 therefore I have to get up, dust myself down, and go back to 433 00:39:09.239 --> 00:39:15.559 work. And that's all it is. You know, it's like, Okay, 434 00:39:15.599 --> 00:39:17.480 that didn't work. Let me try something else. Let me try something 435 00:39:17.480 --> 00:39:22.840 else, let me try something else. You know, we'll be right back 436 00:39:22.960 --> 00:39:32.840 after a word from our sponsor, and now back to the show. Because 437 00:39:32.880 --> 00:39:37.000 I don't have a choice, you know, I don't have the luxury of 438 00:39:37.039 --> 00:39:39.480 going, well, that didn't work, and I'm really hurt my feelings. 439 00:39:39.480 --> 00:39:43.280 I'm really hurt. So I'm going to just go and take five years off 440 00:39:43.320 --> 00:39:46.199 and sit on my dad's yacht. You know, that isn't an option. 441 00:39:50.599 --> 00:39:55.159 So it's just about picking yourself up, dusting yourself off, and keeping on 442 00:39:55.280 --> 00:39:59.320 going. I mean, I had a you know, I had a terrible 443 00:39:59.360 --> 00:40:04.719 crisis of confidence after Pan. I shouldn't talk about it too much, but 444 00:40:04.880 --> 00:40:09.519 you know I had a terrible crisis of confidence after that. I called up 445 00:40:10.440 --> 00:40:15.559 half on Son I said, I'm having a terrible time, and we talked 446 00:40:15.599 --> 00:40:21.599 about it. And he's someone who I thought never experienced crisis of confidence. 447 00:40:21.679 --> 00:40:24.320 You know, he's he's great, he's half He made you know, gravity 448 00:40:24.360 --> 00:40:29.159 in Roma. He said, Oh, man, I'm having exactly the same 449 00:40:29.480 --> 00:40:34.360 problem myself, he said, I'm going through the same thing. I said, 450 00:40:34.400 --> 00:40:37.480 oh, you you know what, You go through that too? He 451 00:40:37.480 --> 00:40:39.679 goes, yes, and man, I go through this too. You know, 452 00:40:39.800 --> 00:40:49.840 it's it's hard. We all go through it, and and we you 453 00:40:49.920 --> 00:40:55.519 know, and and we went and watched a couple of early Italian near realist 454 00:40:55.599 --> 00:41:00.519 movies and felt much better. You know, I think, I think particularly 455 00:41:00.559 --> 00:41:04.039 something you one can do is just go and watch the films that made you 456 00:41:04.079 --> 00:41:09.000 fall in love with filmmaking in the first place. Remind yourself of what you 457 00:41:09.119 --> 00:41:17.239 love about film, which isn't careerst bullshit, it is the art form itself, 458 00:41:20.719 --> 00:41:23.639 and then put that into your work. You know, it's no coincidence 459 00:41:23.920 --> 00:41:29.840 that having had that experience, I went and made Darkest Hour, which was 460 00:41:29.960 --> 00:41:34.159 essentially about this little guy who had a crisis of confidence. You know, 461 00:41:34.639 --> 00:41:38.400 his name was Winston Churchill, But fundamentally, for me, it was about 462 00:41:38.440 --> 00:41:45.800 a guy who had a crisis of confidence, who doubted himself as others doubted 463 00:41:45.880 --> 00:41:52.320 him, and so I was able to put all of that experience directly into 464 00:41:52.360 --> 00:41:55.639 that movie. And you know, I think as artists, we all have 465 00:41:55.840 --> 00:42:00.000 that moment, especially when you're on set. And I've when I've talked to 466 00:42:00.039 --> 00:42:04.039 so many different directors as so many different stages of their career, and it 467 00:42:04.079 --> 00:42:07.079 happens all the time that you have that kind of imposture syndrome. You could 468 00:42:07.119 --> 00:42:09.119 have wanted ask her and you feel like, oh my god, someone's gonna 469 00:42:09.119 --> 00:42:13.079 come in and go, what are you doing here? You don't belong here? 470 00:42:13.159 --> 00:42:17.280 Security escort Joe out off the set. I mean that we all have 471 00:42:17.400 --> 00:42:23.840 that. The only person who doesn't have that is in a Writu Yeah doesn't 472 00:42:23.840 --> 00:42:27.679 have that. I don't think camera. I don't think Cameron has it either. 473 00:42:28.920 --> 00:42:32.119 Maybe not Cameron, okay, but apart from in Aritu and Cameron, 474 00:42:36.119 --> 00:42:42.519 maybe everyone else is imposts They're the only true guests. Is that you know, 475 00:42:43.079 --> 00:42:45.360 what are you gonna do. You're gonna go to the party and go, 476 00:42:45.440 --> 00:42:49.280 oh, I'm not an impostor. I belong here, and then there 477 00:42:49.400 --> 00:42:52.840 lonely because you know, you think you're the only one that belongs. You 478 00:42:52.880 --> 00:42:58.039 know, it's we all share, we all come, and you know, 479 00:42:59.400 --> 00:43:05.280 we're human. Similarities are far greater than our differences, agreed, one hundred 480 00:43:05.320 --> 00:43:07.159 and ten percent. And and and that's why I try to do when I 481 00:43:07.199 --> 00:43:09.760 do these shows, and I speak to people like yourself as I want to 482 00:43:09.800 --> 00:43:13.880 kind of break down the myths of so many because when I was coming up 483 00:43:14.280 --> 00:43:16.039 as a young filmmaker, you know, I looked up on on the on 484 00:43:16.079 --> 00:43:22.599 the mountain Mount Hollywood, where Spielberg and Cameron and Lucas and Copeland Scorsese lived. 485 00:43:22.159 --> 00:43:28.599 It's terrified. Spielberg's terrified. Of course, that's not the man. 486 00:43:29.519 --> 00:43:32.159 He's worried. He worries all the time, you know, and he's Steven 487 00:43:32.199 --> 00:43:39.960 Spielberg and Stephen Spielberg exactly. It's like, I mean, my god. 488 00:43:40.000 --> 00:43:45.079 And in a way, that's what the movie Sarahano is about. Hus see 489 00:43:45.119 --> 00:43:51.920 what I did there. It's about someone who who feels like they're living in 490 00:43:51.960 --> 00:43:55.199 the wrong body. He's an impostor. It's about feeling like you're different from 491 00:43:55.239 --> 00:43:59.440 everyone else. It's what we're you know. It's what I'm trying to talk 492 00:43:59.440 --> 00:44:04.239 about in the movies, is how do I fit in how do I communicate 493 00:44:04.280 --> 00:44:07.639 with other people? Hannah is about a girl trying to go how do I 494 00:44:07.679 --> 00:44:10.360 fit into this world? How do I connect with other human beings? Why 495 00:44:10.400 --> 00:44:15.360 is it so difficult to connect? Why is it so difficult for me to 496 00:44:15.840 --> 00:44:22.719 get past my own feeling of lack of self worth? Why can't I allow 497 00:44:22.840 --> 00:44:28.039 people to see me really for who I am? All of those questions. 498 00:44:28.079 --> 00:44:30.360 That's drama, and that's why I love making drama, you know. And 499 00:44:30.400 --> 00:44:34.400 what I've discovered is that I have to make the movies that I love. 500 00:44:35.679 --> 00:44:39.760 I've tried making, you know, movies, big CG movies. I've tried 501 00:44:39.800 --> 00:44:44.280 making movies that are, you know, twisted, dark thrillers. I've tried 502 00:44:44.320 --> 00:44:51.960 making movies that that aren't really expressive of who I am. But I'm messing 503 00:44:52.000 --> 00:44:55.199 around the genre. I'm trying things. It was interesting, But the films 504 00:44:55.239 --> 00:45:01.400 that work are the films that speak of who I am as an individual, 505 00:45:02.039 --> 00:45:05.840 right and and you could absolutely tell that. And you know, I just 506 00:45:05.880 --> 00:45:10.000 happened. I had the pleasure of watching Sierra No yesterday in fact, so 507 00:45:10.039 --> 00:45:15.039 it's fresh in my mind. I absolutely adored the film. I think it's 508 00:45:15.079 --> 00:45:16.880 wonderful. It's one of the best films of the year, without without question, 509 00:45:19.559 --> 00:45:23.519 the performances are wonderful. How did you how did you bring that story? 510 00:45:24.119 --> 00:45:27.440 What made you want to bring that story back? Because it has been 511 00:45:27.480 --> 00:45:30.519 told obviously a million times before, because of Serra No the Burge rack. 512 00:45:30.079 --> 00:45:35.119 What what made you want to come in and throw your your twist on it? 513 00:45:36.599 --> 00:45:43.440 I would always have wanted to tell that story because I feel it is 514 00:45:45.440 --> 00:45:50.119 I identify with with with Seraho. You know, I I, as we've 515 00:45:50.119 --> 00:45:54.599 talked about, I feel like I don't fit in or unworthy of love, 516 00:45:55.360 --> 00:46:06.239 incapable of connecting with other people. My my my insecurities, my fear of 517 00:46:06.639 --> 00:46:14.800 intimacy are all expressed through that character. The question was that or the problem 518 00:46:14.880 --> 00:46:17.039 was that it had been done before, and so there wasn't, you know, 519 00:46:17.119 --> 00:46:23.679 an opening for me to I couldn't remake the nose version. And then 520 00:46:23.719 --> 00:46:30.000 when I saw Peter Dinkliche play Cirino, and I think often a creatively successful 521 00:46:30.079 --> 00:46:32.920 movie is about the right actor in the right role at the right time, 522 00:46:35.800 --> 00:46:39.320 like you know Gary Oldman in in in Darkest Hour, or Cairo in in 523 00:46:39.440 --> 00:46:47.840 Pride and Prejudice, or indeed Sirscha in Atonement seeing Pete in that role. 524 00:46:49.559 --> 00:46:58.440 Suddenly the emotional weight of the story hit me in a way that I hadn't 525 00:46:58.559 --> 00:47:06.400 experienced before, Because, however strong the suspension of disbelief might be, you're 526 00:47:06.440 --> 00:47:10.320 always aware that gered Dppad is wearing a you know, big prosthetic on the 527 00:47:10.400 --> 00:47:13.679 end of his face and at the end of the night is going to take 528 00:47:13.719 --> 00:47:19.000 that off and go to the bar and get drunk. Whereas with Pete there's 529 00:47:19.039 --> 00:47:25.280 a media authenticity. You know that Pete is is gonna be always be he 530 00:47:25.400 --> 00:47:30.400 is. He's always going to be Pete. He's he's He's lived with that 531 00:47:30.599 --> 00:47:36.360 experience, and he brings the weight of that experience to that performance. And 532 00:47:36.400 --> 00:47:49.840 then to see him opposite Hailey Bennett, who is so extraordinarily womanly and feminine 533 00:47:51.239 --> 00:47:54.159 and feminine, and and you know, she's not one of these kind of 534 00:47:54.599 --> 00:48:04.079 androgynoust girls that kind of completely asexual. She's kind of She's got this extraordinary 535 00:48:05.000 --> 00:48:15.880 femininity and sexuality and intelligence, and and so to see him opposite her seemed 536 00:48:15.920 --> 00:48:21.559 like the perfect, perfect coupling. The casting was phenomenal enough, I mean, 537 00:48:21.599 --> 00:48:24.280 it was absolutely phenomenal. I hope Peter gets nominated because he was. 538 00:48:24.920 --> 00:48:29.840 It's a tour de force. It's an absolute tuti force performance on his part. 539 00:48:30.880 --> 00:48:34.679 Now, I always wanted to ask, because I've never spoken to a 540 00:48:34.719 --> 00:48:44.480 director who's worked on a musical before, So how do you approach directing these 541 00:48:44.679 --> 00:48:50.599 large set pieces and musical sequences, Because it was just I've just I've never 542 00:48:50.679 --> 00:48:54.119 directed a musical sequence. I don't even consider how you would even go at 543 00:48:54.159 --> 00:48:59.440 that level with so many costumes and the locations and everything, frankly, like 544 00:48:59.480 --> 00:49:05.440 you would any other sequence, you know. Uh, And and the choreography 545 00:49:05.559 --> 00:49:10.960 is probably the biggest difference dance, but that is really very much like fight 546 00:49:12.039 --> 00:49:17.159 choreography. You know. We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor, 547 00:49:21.800 --> 00:49:27.320 and now back to the show. Uh. It all has to be 548 00:49:27.480 --> 00:49:32.519 very very carefully worked out and rehearsed endlessly for weeks on end. Prior to 549 00:49:32.599 --> 00:49:39.440 shooting all of the We made a choice to have all of the singing happen 550 00:49:39.559 --> 00:49:47.280 live on set, so that there was a level of intimacy and that there 551 00:49:47.320 --> 00:49:57.320 would be a fluidity between the speech and the singing. Cut should you cut 552 00:49:57.400 --> 00:50:00.800 between performances, Like so, if someone's singing here on set and someone saying, 553 00:50:00.920 --> 00:50:02.719 are you cutting those performances or are you laying down like an ad R 554 00:50:02.840 --> 00:50:07.639 track afterwards of them live on set? No, they're they're they're singing live 555 00:50:07.679 --> 00:50:13.000 on set, and that's what we're cutting with. Okay, So they're wearing 556 00:50:13.480 --> 00:50:17.360 earwigs so they can hear the music backing track, and if they're singing in 557 00:50:17.559 --> 00:50:23.800 duet with another performer, we've got a temp recording of that other performer playing 558 00:50:23.800 --> 00:50:30.280 in their ear and then when I go and shoot the other performer, I've 559 00:50:30.280 --> 00:50:35.079 got what we recorded on set from the first performer playing in their area. 560 00:50:36.079 --> 00:50:38.760 And sometimes we had live accompliment because we wanted the kind of you know, 561 00:50:38.800 --> 00:50:44.559 we wanted to be off click as they say, so, so we could 562 00:50:44.639 --> 00:50:49.639 so they could be more kind of they could move the written the melody around 563 00:50:49.719 --> 00:50:54.199 and the rhythm around a little bit more. But but shooting the singing live 564 00:50:54.360 --> 00:51:07.000 like that enabled a much a much more tender, fragile, intimate experience. 565 00:51:07.079 --> 00:51:10.519 We're not seeing we're not hearing them through a glass panel. We're not you 566 00:51:10.519 --> 00:51:15.800 know, we're not having them talking talking, and then suddenly needle drop and 567 00:51:15.840 --> 00:51:22.280 we're into a it's a musical Uh, It's as natural as singing along to 568 00:51:22.320 --> 00:51:25.280 the radio. Whilst you're doing them washing up and and I saw that right 569 00:51:25.320 --> 00:51:28.360 away. I was like, oh, he's he's doing it that way. 570 00:51:28.400 --> 00:51:30.480 I was like, oh, this is nice. And and when you see 571 00:51:30.480 --> 00:51:32.880 Peter just starts singing like you know, in the middle of like he's having 572 00:51:32.920 --> 00:51:37.440 a conversation, then just starts to sing naturally like you it was. It 573 00:51:37.480 --> 00:51:43.039 was wonderfully done. It was really wonderfully executed. Thank you. I mean 574 00:51:43.079 --> 00:51:47.159 that's also massive, uh, you know, massively helped by the band The 575 00:51:47.280 --> 00:51:52.519 National who wrote all the music and lyrics and and their music has a kind 576 00:51:52.599 --> 00:52:00.800 of contemplative emotionality that is yearning and and it's not kind of you know, 577 00:52:01.039 --> 00:52:08.199 it's not I was about to say another film there, It's not. It's 578 00:52:08.199 --> 00:52:14.519 not eighties musicals, got it? Exactly? Fair enough? Fair fair enough? 579 00:52:14.760 --> 00:52:16.239 Now? When is when is here No being released? And where can 580 00:52:16.239 --> 00:52:24.760 people see it? It is being released on It's being released on January twenty 581 00:52:24.760 --> 00:52:30.000 first, in you know, selected theaters and then goes wide on February the 582 00:52:30.039 --> 00:52:34.440 fourth. Okay, And I'm going to ask you a few questions. I 583 00:52:34.480 --> 00:52:37.719 ask all of my guests, what advice would you give a filmmaker trying to 584 00:52:37.760 --> 00:52:40.239 break into the business today. Oh god, I mean I think we've covered 585 00:52:40.239 --> 00:52:45.760 that, haven't we. I think we might have. I mean, you 586 00:52:45.800 --> 00:52:52.079 know, yeah, as I said earlier, find actors go to theater, 587 00:52:52.320 --> 00:52:57.280 go to you know, there's a little room upstairs of a pub, go 588 00:52:57.360 --> 00:53:00.760 and put a show on. What is the lesson that took you the longest 589 00:53:00.800 --> 00:53:05.920 to learn, whether in the film industry or in life. I'm enough, 590 00:53:07.280 --> 00:53:10.920 you know what? That is one of the most common answers out of all 591 00:53:10.920 --> 00:53:15.679 everybody has a lot of people. That's That's a lesson that a lot of 592 00:53:15.719 --> 00:53:19.920 people have learned. It's fascinating that in patience. Yeah, I still haven't 593 00:53:20.000 --> 00:53:24.400 learned it, but that's the lesson I'm continuing to try and learn. It's 594 00:53:24.440 --> 00:53:28.360 always that in patience. Patience is the other big one that a lot of 595 00:53:28.360 --> 00:53:32.320 people have to learn. Still. Yeah, maybe we've all read the same 596 00:53:32.360 --> 00:53:37.000 self help. Yeah. And lastly, three of your favorite films of all 597 00:53:37.079 --> 00:53:45.360 time? Well, I can't even begin to my favorite films into just three, 598 00:53:45.400 --> 00:53:51.880 so I'll just come with three off the top of my head. You 599 00:53:51.920 --> 00:53:54.639 see, I can't even do that. You can do directors too, if 600 00:53:54.639 --> 00:53:59.039 you like. I'm trying to be clever. I shouldn't be clever. I 601 00:53:59.039 --> 00:54:04.000 should just tell you the films that a brief encounter by David Lean Okay, 602 00:54:06.639 --> 00:54:19.480 Felini's Ama Cord and Visconti's The Leopard. Amazing lists are amazing lists. Joe, 603 00:54:19.559 --> 00:54:21.800 Thank you so much for being on the show. It has been an 604 00:54:21.840 --> 00:54:25.000 absolute pleasure talking to you. It was so much fun. Please continue making 605 00:54:25.159 --> 00:54:30.760 movies. You are needed in the cinematic world. So I truly truly appreciate 606 00:54:30.840 --> 00:54:36.639 you, my friend. Bless you. I want to thank Joe for coming 607 00:54:36.679 --> 00:54:39.480 on the show and dropping his knowledge bombs on the show today. Thank you 608 00:54:39.519 --> 00:54:42.880 so much, Joe. If you want to get links to anything we spoke 609 00:54:42.920 --> 00:54:45.480 about in this episode, including how to see his new film sirrah No, 610 00:54:45.599 --> 00:54:50.480 which, by the way, I have seen and it is fantastic. It 611 00:54:50.599 --> 00:54:54.639 is a wonderful retelling of a classic, classic story, head over to the 612 00:54:54.679 --> 00:55:00.400 show notes at Bulletproof, Screenwriting dot tv, forward slash one, and if 613 00:55:00.400 --> 00:55:06.880 you haven't already, please head over to Screenwriting podcast dot com, subscribe and 614 00:55:07.039 --> 00:55:09.119 leave a good review for the show. It truly truly helps us out a 615 00:55:09.159 --> 00:55:13.159 lot. Thank you so much for listening. Guys. As always, keep 616 00:55:13.159 --> 00:55:16.280 on writing no matter what talk to you soon. Thanks for listening to the 617 00:55:16.320 --> 00:55:21.719 Bulletproof Screenwriting podcast at Bulletproof Screenwriting dot tv.