WEBVTT 1 00:00:01.040 --> 00:00:03.960 Hey, everyone, this is Chris from Hacking Your Leadership and on today's guest 2 00:00:03.960 --> 00:00:07.679 interview. We're joined by Jill Katz. She's the founder of Assemble HR, 3 00:00:07.879 --> 00:00:14.439 a growing human resources consulting from specializing in culture change, communication and conflict. 4 00:00:14.960 --> 00:00:18.359 Welcome Joe, say hi to our audience. Hello, good afternoon, good 5 00:00:18.440 --> 00:00:21.320 morning. Nice to see you and glad to be with you. Chris, 6 00:00:21.359 --> 00:00:23.960 it's a pleasure having you on the show. I want to start by asking 7 00:00:24.000 --> 00:00:29.199 you what does a company that specializes in culture change, communication and conflict do. 8 00:00:29.399 --> 00:00:34.280 We build relationships, We build trust quickly, and we have four main 9 00:00:34.439 --> 00:00:40.399 services that we offer to our clients. We do breakthrough leadership off sites, 10 00:00:40.759 --> 00:00:46.240 we do learning programs, we do fractional HR work, and we do coaching. 11 00:00:46.439 --> 00:00:51.679 When I think of the concept of culture change, communication and conflict, 12 00:00:52.079 --> 00:00:57.240 you know they're broad and they can be applied to a lot of different areas. 13 00:00:57.560 --> 00:01:00.840 If you think about kind of what the cult zeitgeist is in the moment. 14 00:01:02.119 --> 00:01:06.599 When I hear culture change, communication and conflict, I hear, okay, 15 00:01:06.680 --> 00:01:10.560 we're talking about the debate between in office work from home hybrid. If 16 00:01:10.560 --> 00:01:15.480 I put the same four words to whatever is going on in the moment three 17 00:01:15.560 --> 00:01:19.159 years ago, four years ago, I'm thinking diversity, equity, and inclusion. 18 00:01:19.480 --> 00:01:23.040 What are other kind of broader topics that are affecting a lot of people? 19 00:01:23.519 --> 00:01:26.959 Could you apply those things too, Like, what are the things that 20 00:01:26.040 --> 00:01:32.319 people that you've seen over the years when a company is having issues and wants 21 00:01:32.359 --> 00:01:36.799 to help, you know, with change management and culture and communication and conflict. 22 00:01:37.040 --> 00:01:40.439 What are some of the broader things companies have dealt with over the years. 23 00:01:40.480 --> 00:01:44.599 Absolutely everything, And that's exactly why we work in change, communication, 24 00:01:45.000 --> 00:01:49.359 conflict, and culture, and so we believe that those four components are the 25 00:01:49.359 --> 00:01:56.719 components that touch the lives of every team that is awake and working today in 26 00:01:56.719 --> 00:02:00.480 today's world and has been for the past who knows one hundred years. You 27 00:02:00.519 --> 00:02:05.599 don't have a team if those four things aren't happening every day. So it 28 00:02:05.680 --> 00:02:10.680 touches accountability, it touches trust, it touches results, it touches productivity, 29 00:02:12.159 --> 00:02:16.360 it touches the way that people build relationships, and then whatever's happening it quite 30 00:02:16.400 --> 00:02:22.080 frankly, it touches an organization. When there are things happening politically in the 31 00:02:22.120 --> 00:02:25.000 world. If you think about what we've all gone through through Q four of 32 00:02:25.080 --> 00:02:30.759 this past year, a lot of things were happening that were important there and 33 00:02:30.879 --> 00:02:35.560 a lot of ways. I think that also touches DEIB. But it can 34 00:02:35.639 --> 00:02:38.879 be the hot topics like the hybrid work, and it can also be as 35 00:02:38.919 --> 00:02:43.639 important as the way that teams function and interact with one another. I'm going 36 00:02:43.680 --> 00:02:46.080 to ask you kind of a little bit of a loaded question here, make 37 00:02:46.199 --> 00:02:51.960 an argument for why working in the office is important, and then I'm going 38 00:02:52.000 --> 00:02:54.759 to ask you to make another argument for why working from home is important. 39 00:02:54.800 --> 00:03:00.240 If you want to engage and retain your top talent, the most important certain 40 00:03:00.360 --> 00:03:04.520 thing you can do for your people is empower them. And the way that 41 00:03:04.599 --> 00:03:10.599 you empower employees is to give them the opportunity to make as many choices for 42 00:03:10.759 --> 00:03:17.000 themselves in their world of work as possible. Your best bet is not telling 43 00:03:17.159 --> 00:03:23.680 people what they should do. They're grown ups. What people should do is 44 00:03:23.719 --> 00:03:29.319 get their work done and be highly productive and highly collaborative, and if they're 45 00:03:29.439 --> 00:03:35.000 capable of doing that in an office or remotely, that's what they should do. 46 00:03:35.280 --> 00:03:39.800 The relationship building in person is really hard to match any other way. 47 00:03:40.400 --> 00:03:46.719 The checking in on people, all that stuff I think is complete BS. 48 00:03:46.960 --> 00:03:52.000 It is useless, it causes anger, it causes resentment. It's what you 49 00:03:52.080 --> 00:03:55.439 do when you're in third grade, when they take attendance. There's no benefit 50 00:03:55.479 --> 00:03:59.560 to that whatsoever. I think a lot of leaders want to do what's right 51 00:03:59.599 --> 00:04:01.400 by their peace people. They also want to do it's right by their business 52 00:04:01.560 --> 00:04:05.439 and they're struggling to figure out what that is. So this idea of putting 53 00:04:05.439 --> 00:04:10.080 more power in the hands of the employees is a good thing. Some of 54 00:04:10.080 --> 00:04:14.560 the employees want to be in the office and maybe not every day, but 55 00:04:14.680 --> 00:04:16.959 you know, at least on a scheduled periodic basis, because they feel like 56 00:04:16.959 --> 00:04:20.160 they get more done that way. It's tough to put power in the hands 57 00:04:20.160 --> 00:04:24.680 of the employees and also say each employee can do whatever's right for them, 58 00:04:24.879 --> 00:04:31.680 right. I really believe that giving people more ability to make decisions gives people 59 00:04:32.000 --> 00:04:38.040 more ability to show up and be accountable and impress you. And that's where 60 00:04:38.079 --> 00:04:41.839 you see your best talent float to the top. When you say to people, 61 00:04:42.160 --> 00:04:46.040 show us your best, do your best, that's where you see people 62 00:04:46.240 --> 00:04:49.319 step up and impress you. And I think you made such a good point, 63 00:04:49.399 --> 00:04:55.120 which is you do see some people saying I want to be in the 64 00:04:55.160 --> 00:04:58.759 office. I prefer to be in the office, or we have the opportunity 65 00:04:58.839 --> 00:05:02.360 to go in X days a week, and I choose to go. But 66 00:05:02.519 --> 00:05:09.639 there is a real emotional piece too. It's a power to say I choose 67 00:05:09.680 --> 00:05:15.560 to go versus I'm forced to go. And I think it is so critical 68 00:05:15.720 --> 00:05:25.120 to not miss the conversation about how the return to office conversation has disproportionately impacted 69 00:05:25.319 --> 00:05:30.399 women working women, particularly women that are taking care of children or men that 70 00:05:30.480 --> 00:05:36.240 are taking care of children. That has been a massive shift in the workforce 71 00:05:36.560 --> 00:05:43.120 and you've lost a lot of women who were unable to go back into the 72 00:05:43.120 --> 00:05:49.720 workforce that could be significant leaders in organizations today. So it's being in your 73 00:05:49.800 --> 00:05:55.000 car and wasting time. It's all the extra time in your calendar. But 74 00:05:55.040 --> 00:06:01.399 then there's an entire conversation about people that have childcare, elder care, pet 75 00:06:01.560 --> 00:06:10.240 care, medical issues and can be amazing parts of teams from their home office. 76 00:06:11.000 --> 00:06:15.920 And so I just think that it is really important for us to remember 77 00:06:15.959 --> 00:06:20.199 that there is an ability for many, not all, but many people to 78 00:06:20.279 --> 00:06:29.079 be highly productive contributors to their organizations in lots and lots of different ways. 79 00:06:29.399 --> 00:06:34.079 People travel and they're highly productive when they're traveling. There's no difference from being 80 00:06:34.079 --> 00:06:38.879 in a hotel room. I work with lots of clients they're traveling all over 81 00:06:38.920 --> 00:06:45.519 the world. That's considered in office. When they're calling in from Mexico and 82 00:06:46.160 --> 00:06:51.319 there's spotty Wi FI, no one's questioning if they're hybrid at that moment because 83 00:06:51.319 --> 00:06:56.600 they're traveling for business. It is a really, really interesting topic, and 84 00:06:56.680 --> 00:07:00.319 I wonder if it'll ever get wrestled to the ground, or if we will 85 00:07:00.319 --> 00:07:03.720 be talking about this for years and years. We will be talking about it 86 00:07:03.720 --> 00:07:05.920 for years and years. There's just there's no way around it, you know. 87 00:07:05.959 --> 00:07:13.279 There's I think a lot of what drives the arguments and the conversation in 88 00:07:13.279 --> 00:07:18.199 whatever direction it's going, is just simply where the power lies in terms of 89 00:07:18.240 --> 00:07:23.519 the job market. Right, So, if if unemployment is incredibly low and 90 00:07:23.680 --> 00:07:30.040 companies are struggling to find talent, the employees have more power and the likelihood 91 00:07:30.439 --> 00:07:34.879 that an organization will be open to whatever working model works for each employee is 92 00:07:35.279 --> 00:07:41.279 significantly higher. And if you have six percent unemployment, and if you have 93 00:07:41.519 --> 00:07:44.480 you know, if it was a situation like two thousand and eight, two 94 00:07:44.519 --> 00:07:47.639 thousand and nine, there are people who were who would volunteer commute two hours 95 00:07:47.639 --> 00:07:50.600 a day, every single day, just because they needed a job. Good 96 00:07:50.680 --> 00:07:57.519 luck getting employers to even you know, consider a working model that works for 97 00:07:57.560 --> 00:08:00.720 the employee whatever whatever that happens to be. So you know, there there's 98 00:08:00.759 --> 00:08:05.759 this There almost needs to be a meeting in the middle, a symbiotic relationship 99 00:08:05.800 --> 00:08:09.240 that says that, hey, there is no we need you more than you 100 00:08:09.279 --> 00:08:13.560 need us. It's we both need each other, like people need jobs and 101 00:08:13.680 --> 00:08:18.879 companies need talent, and and I think that that an imbalance of that power 102 00:08:18.399 --> 00:08:22.279 can lead to making the wrong decisions. Like if you if about if the 103 00:08:22.319 --> 00:08:26.240 power balance is too far in one direction to the other, it's really difficult 104 00:08:26.319 --> 00:08:31.240 to not wield that in a negative way as a workforce as a whole. 105 00:08:31.399 --> 00:08:35.080 It's easy for a person to not, but it's really difficult to you just 106 00:08:35.080 --> 00:08:39.000 see it happening, You see the decisions being made. You know. It's 107 00:08:39.039 --> 00:08:46.279 it's like when when unemployment is really high, then you see applicants always saying, 108 00:08:46.320 --> 00:08:48.759 oh this this organization ghosted me. You know, they they stopped it, 109 00:08:48.799 --> 00:08:52.440 they stopped replying to my emails. I followed up on interviews. No 110 00:08:52.480 --> 00:08:56.200 one's following up and then they get mad, and then all of a sudden, 111 00:08:56.200 --> 00:08:58.559 the power switches back to the employees or the applicants, and then they 112 00:08:58.559 --> 00:09:01.440 start going companies and they're like, well, they did that to us, 113 00:09:01.480 --> 00:09:05.240 you know, five years ago, when it was the other directions. At 114 00:09:05.240 --> 00:09:11.559 some point, people need to just start treating other people correctly, with with 115 00:09:11.759 --> 00:09:13.919 kindness and compassion, because that's just the right thing to do, and just 116 00:09:15.039 --> 00:09:18.639 trusting that that things will work well if you just do that long enough, 117 00:09:18.919 --> 00:09:22.279 as opposed to just kind of like, you know, I want I want 118 00:09:22.320 --> 00:09:24.679 my I want my uh my piece of cake too, now that I see 119 00:09:24.679 --> 00:09:28.720 that you got yours a few years back. I don't think that your listeners 120 00:09:28.799 --> 00:09:33.120 can see this right now, Chris, but I'm harding. I'm harding you 121 00:09:33.240 --> 00:09:35.240 and harding you and harding you. I appreciate that. No, we're not, 122 00:09:35.240 --> 00:09:39.039 we're not recording video. But uh but I saw I saw that in 123 00:09:39.080 --> 00:09:48.240 the in the video chat. So I've noticed an unfortunate decline in the conversations 124 00:09:48.360 --> 00:09:54.639 related to diversity, equity and inclusion over the last maybe year. I think 125 00:09:54.240 --> 00:10:00.320 I think that the the the murder of George Floyd four years ago, uh 126 00:10:00.879 --> 00:10:03.320 took it to from from the back burner or no burner in a lot of 127 00:10:03.399 --> 00:10:09.919 organizations to the most important thing in the world for them. But it seems 128 00:10:09.960 --> 00:10:13.720 to have lost some momentum recently. I'm wondering if if you have any idea 129 00:10:13.759 --> 00:10:16.840 as to why you think that is, or if you're if you're seeing anything 130 00:10:16.919 --> 00:10:22.559 from organizations coming to you to say we need we need help with this, 131 00:10:22.039 --> 00:10:26.440 because I feel like we had some momentum and we've lost it. I think 132 00:10:26.480 --> 00:10:31.519 you're right. I think that there has been some change in momentum. There's 133 00:10:31.600 --> 00:10:37.559 been a little bit of conversation lately that DEI is dying. There was an 134 00:10:37.639 --> 00:10:43.840 article recently about the fact that DEI could be dangerous for organizations. I think 135 00:10:43.840 --> 00:10:48.799 that post George Floyd there was a big sort of burst and focus on the 136 00:10:48.960 --> 00:10:56.600 topic. We're really fortunate in my organization we have a head of de E 137 00:10:56.720 --> 00:11:01.080 and I Zamino Ledac, who is pretty well known. You may know her, 138 00:11:01.320 --> 00:11:03.679 and she is one of the best in the business. And I wish 139 00:11:03.759 --> 00:11:07.279 she was here for this question because I learn from her every day and I 140 00:11:07.399 --> 00:11:13.000 do not in any way claim to be an expert on the topic. From 141 00:11:13.080 --> 00:11:18.000 my perspective, I think that people have become afraid. I think that the 142 00:11:18.720 --> 00:11:26.240 topics around DEE and I, particularly post October seventh, have become so so 143 00:11:26.799 --> 00:11:35.679 sensitive that inside of organizations, leaders are afraid. We are afraid of saying 144 00:11:35.000 --> 00:11:41.000 the wrong thing, or afraid of not saying enough, We're afraid of saying 145 00:11:41.279 --> 00:11:48.399 too much. There's just so much fear. We're afraid that what we're sharing 146 00:11:48.480 --> 00:11:56.279 in terms of learning is insufficient, or that investing in it and having the 147 00:11:56.399 --> 00:12:01.879 training go awry is dangerous. And so I think that much of what is 148 00:12:01.960 --> 00:12:09.919 happening surrounding the topic of DEIV has been defined lately as shrouded in fear, 149 00:12:11.080 --> 00:12:16.559 and so sadly, just kind of letting it go and letting it be quiet 150 00:12:16.759 --> 00:12:20.919 seems to some people like a safer choice. I think you're right. At 151 00:12:20.960 --> 00:12:24.399 the beginning of my career, it was just diversity. And then I remember 152 00:12:24.879 --> 00:12:30.279 when the I was added, you know, diversity and inclusion in terms of 153 00:12:30.320 --> 00:12:35.320 how people felt included, not just that the number was represented on a spreadsheet. 154 00:12:35.600 --> 00:12:39.120 And then I remember when the E was added, when equity was added, 155 00:12:39.360 --> 00:12:43.919 and now we're talking about belonging. It's it seems like a lot of 156 00:12:43.039 --> 00:12:48.639 organizations in an effort to kind of separate themselves and to say that, oh, 157 00:12:48.759 --> 00:12:52.840 when we say diversity and inclusion, don't roll your eyes, we mean 158 00:12:52.879 --> 00:12:56.600 it differently because we're talking about equity too. When you say D and I, 159 00:12:56.639 --> 00:13:01.200 don't roll your eyes at us, we mean belonging too. It's it's 160 00:13:01.240 --> 00:13:05.279 it's that they're growing the letters in order to say, hey, we're on 161 00:13:05.360 --> 00:13:11.759 the forefront of the vernacular. But the practices that they're doing aren't really changing 162 00:13:11.840 --> 00:13:16.240 much. It's just really about how do we keep our head above water here 163 00:13:16.600 --> 00:13:20.399 and and and not do the wrong thing. And that's it's unfortunate because all 164 00:13:20.440 --> 00:13:24.039 that does is it leads to the growing of the letters without the growing of 165 00:13:24.080 --> 00:13:28.559 the outcomes you're looking for. Right, It is a very very sensitive topic. 166 00:13:28.600 --> 00:13:35.320 I had a client reach out to me recently because they are looking at 167 00:13:35.720 --> 00:13:41.960 whether or not it makes sense to start an ERG for Jewish employees in their 168 00:13:43.080 --> 00:13:48.200 organization post October seventh, right, and they asked me to do an amount 169 00:13:48.240 --> 00:13:52.399 of research for them to see how many other organizations have such an ERG. 170 00:13:52.960 --> 00:13:58.159 And it's an interesting question because it's interesting to understand how many organizations have an 171 00:13:58.399 --> 00:14:03.000 ERG for Jewish employees that in and of itself is an interesting conversation, but 172 00:14:03.039 --> 00:14:09.000 it's also interesting that an organization would need or want to know that information before 173 00:14:09.200 --> 00:14:13.559 starting an ERG for a group of employees. I love it. I love 174 00:14:13.600 --> 00:14:16.080 that. Yes, keep going. I mean that in and of itself is 175 00:14:16.120 --> 00:14:22.559 a conversation. Yes. So we're just we are literally scared of our own 176 00:14:22.960 --> 00:14:28.360 shadow at any given time, and we don't want to just do what once 177 00:14:28.399 --> 00:14:33.679 again, it sort of returns us to our earlier part of the conversation, 178 00:14:33.799 --> 00:14:37.360 Chris, which is empowering our employees and saying to them, your grown ups 179 00:14:37.399 --> 00:14:41.799 and what you want to do, obviously well within reason, is the right 180 00:14:41.919 --> 00:14:46.600 thing for you. And if there's an affinity group that you want to create 181 00:14:46.000 --> 00:14:50.279 because there are things that are important to you, go for it. Yeah. 182 00:14:50.360 --> 00:14:56.720 People have an inherent desire to feel like they are part of a group 183 00:14:56.879 --> 00:15:01.759 that is bigger than them that they can find in commonality with. And when 184 00:15:03.039 --> 00:15:09.039 there is a lack of visible commonality, people will look for other things that 185 00:15:09.080 --> 00:15:13.080 they can find in common with people. And I think in a lot of 186 00:15:13.200 --> 00:15:22.600 cases, some of the strongest relationships that are not based on the outward appearance 187 00:15:22.600 --> 00:15:28.200 of somebody. You have to dig to find commonality with some people. But 188 00:15:28.240 --> 00:15:33.600 in the times when you do that, oftentimes those end up being the deepest 189 00:15:33.639 --> 00:15:37.559 and most profound relationships because they're rooted in something other than what you happen to 190 00:15:37.600 --> 00:15:41.919 be born like or with or you know. These you know, immutable characteristics 191 00:15:41.919 --> 00:15:46.559 that you really have no control over. Those are are more superficial, but 192 00:15:46.600 --> 00:15:50.360 they're easier to form because they're easy to kind of look around the room and 193 00:15:50.399 --> 00:15:52.799 say, Okay, that person looks like me, let's go talk to them. 194 00:15:52.200 --> 00:15:56.759 Especially if you're looking around the room and there are very few people who 195 00:15:56.759 --> 00:15:58.039 look like you, then it can be very easy to do that. I 196 00:15:58.080 --> 00:16:06.440 think it's incumbon to on leaders to put their people in situations where they have 197 00:16:06.519 --> 00:16:08.799 to work at it, because that's a muscle that has to be flexed and 198 00:16:10.200 --> 00:16:14.799 exercised otherwise you lose it. You don't it's not something you just inherently have, 199 00:16:15.559 --> 00:16:18.919 but the need to feel like you're a part of something bigger will drive 200 00:16:19.000 --> 00:16:22.000 you to work that muscle. If you don't look around the room and inherently 201 00:16:22.000 --> 00:16:25.360 see people that like, the easy way out is to find the people that 202 00:16:25.399 --> 00:16:27.360 look like you. And so if you can't do that, you will work 203 00:16:27.399 --> 00:16:30.320 at it, and then that leads to you know, I think better outcomes. 204 00:16:30.840 --> 00:16:36.200 I don't know why more leaders don't don't do that. It's it's so 205 00:16:36.279 --> 00:16:38.320 much easier to kind of let the chips fall where they may. It takes 206 00:16:38.360 --> 00:16:42.159 a lot of confidence to do that, and a lot of releasing of the 207 00:16:42.159 --> 00:16:47.480 fear of what could go wrong. And I think that watching so many people 208 00:16:47.559 --> 00:16:53.279 be canceled, this whole cancel culture, has given people a decent amount of 209 00:16:55.000 --> 00:17:03.200 valid excuses to not put themselves out there, to just let things chill out 210 00:17:03.240 --> 00:17:07.680 and not make a big deal of things and not go into the hard conversations 211 00:17:08.200 --> 00:17:12.119 because they don't want to get canceled. They don't want to see people around 212 00:17:12.119 --> 00:17:17.920 them get canceled. And so I think we've seen some really important topics not 213 00:17:18.160 --> 00:17:22.440 be brought up. I think for leaders, if you are making decisions that 214 00:17:22.480 --> 00:17:26.119 are rooted in values every day and I mean little decisions, if your people 215 00:17:26.200 --> 00:17:30.599 can see you making those decisions daily and they can and they can look at 216 00:17:30.640 --> 00:17:34.279 those decisions and think, Okay, I know where my boss, I know 217 00:17:34.319 --> 00:17:40.640 where my direct leader's values are and what they are, then you get a 218 00:17:40.680 --> 00:17:45.599 lot of grace when it can't necessarily be obviously tied to whatever that why a 219 00:17:45.640 --> 00:17:48.759 decision was made. You get leaders who will make a decision and the person 220 00:17:48.759 --> 00:17:52.640 will go, I don't know why they made that decision, but I know 221 00:17:52.720 --> 00:17:56.279 the last hundred that I saw them make. We're rooted in values and their 222 00:17:56.359 --> 00:17:57.599 values that I agree with and I like that. So I'm going to give 223 00:17:57.599 --> 00:18:00.039 them the benefit of the doubt until I find out what the reason was, 224 00:18:00.119 --> 00:18:03.839 and I'm going to ask, because it's still important to ask. And then 225 00:18:03.799 --> 00:18:08.559 oftentimes, because there's one hundred examples of good decision making, the explanation of 226 00:18:08.559 --> 00:18:11.400 why the decision was made will let that person go, Okay, I get 227 00:18:11.400 --> 00:18:15.920 it. Now, you know. And when a leader is making decisions that 228 00:18:15.720 --> 00:18:21.799 I don't want to say that aren't necessarily agreeable with you, but rooted in 229 00:18:21.880 --> 00:18:26.400 a consistent set of values, even when you disagree with the decision, that 230 00:18:26.519 --> 00:18:30.680 is more important than just making decisions that you agree with. It's making decisions 231 00:18:30.720 --> 00:18:33.720 that you can say, I know where this decision came from, and it's 232 00:18:33.759 --> 00:18:37.720 the same set of values that the last ten were made from. So you 233 00:18:37.799 --> 00:18:41.079 become a predictable leader. You become someone who I know the next thing that 234 00:18:41.119 --> 00:18:45.480 happens I know how they're going to act in advance because this is what they 235 00:18:45.480 --> 00:18:47.920 did the last ten times. And I know I'm not gonna like what they're 236 00:18:47.920 --> 00:18:51.279 gonna do, but you know what, I'm okay with that because I know 237 00:18:51.319 --> 00:18:52.559 where they're coming from and I know why they're going to do it, and 238 00:18:52.599 --> 00:18:56.640 it might not work well for me at this moment, but I like the 239 00:18:56.000 --> 00:19:00.319 times where it does work well for me, and that that actually became more 240 00:19:00.319 --> 00:19:03.839 important than just a leader who makes decisions you happen to agree with every time 241 00:19:03.000 --> 00:19:10.279 I agree. So I recently had one of the executives from the Gallop Organization 242 00:19:10.640 --> 00:19:15.640 on the podcast, Jim Hard, and he said that one of the most 243 00:19:15.680 --> 00:19:23.799 maybe the most indicative element of whether or not an employee is engaged. Were 244 00:19:25.119 --> 00:19:30.839 an employee with self report as being engaged in their work, is the frequency 245 00:19:30.920 --> 00:19:36.039 and rhythm of one on one, well done one on one conversations between them 246 00:19:36.079 --> 00:19:40.039 and their direct leader. I don't know that that would have been the answer 247 00:19:40.440 --> 00:19:42.880 fifteen years ago as the single biggest thing, but it has become that. 248 00:19:44.640 --> 00:19:48.680 Why do you think that is? Why do you think that that people individual 249 00:19:48.720 --> 00:19:55.359 people have put such a growing value on the individual time The one on one 250 00:19:56.039 --> 00:20:00.359 rhythm, the scheduled, like not just quarterly or once a year, but 251 00:20:00.680 --> 00:20:03.680 whatever works for them, be it weekly or bi weekly or whatever it is. 252 00:20:03.960 --> 00:20:07.240 Why is that become so important in our business? At Assemble, we 253 00:20:08.119 --> 00:20:12.640 show up to our off sites and our learning programs wearing shirts that say it's 254 00:20:12.680 --> 00:20:18.720 all about relationships. That's our mantra in our company. And I think that's 255 00:20:18.799 --> 00:20:22.359 the answer to your question. It's what we believe and it's the foundation of 256 00:20:22.440 --> 00:20:27.640 all the work that we do in our company. I think that your one 257 00:20:27.720 --> 00:20:37.200 on one meetings are where you develop and nurture the one on one meaningful relationship. 258 00:20:37.240 --> 00:20:42.400 And the more time you spend building it, and particularly if it's consistent, 259 00:20:42.440 --> 00:20:45.960 as you said, whether it's weekly or bi weekly or monthly, and 260 00:20:47.000 --> 00:20:51.559 you know you can count on it, it starts to develop into a rhythm. 261 00:20:51.599 --> 00:20:53.680 You start to actually build trust. You start to know you can count 262 00:20:53.720 --> 00:20:59.319 on someone. As you said before in what you were talking about, you 263 00:20:59.400 --> 00:21:02.440 start to know, oh, what you're going to get from that person, 264 00:21:02.519 --> 00:21:07.759 and that one on one relationship is what it's all about. It builds loyalty. 265 00:21:07.240 --> 00:21:11.640 It's where you start to see more retention. It's where someone starts to 266 00:21:11.680 --> 00:21:15.240 be more and more accountable to one another. It's where care is built and 267 00:21:15.559 --> 00:21:21.400 ultimately you really start to trust that person. So that is hands down, 268 00:21:21.920 --> 00:21:26.319 I completely understand where Harder gave you that answer. There's this element of feedback 269 00:21:27.000 --> 00:21:33.160 that I think with a lack of on on ones that are regularly scheduled, 270 00:21:33.200 --> 00:21:36.799 and I mean in most organizations they are regularly scheduled, they're just not often 271 00:21:36.920 --> 00:21:38.039 enough, right, They're just there, you know, quarterly or monthly is 272 00:21:38.039 --> 00:21:42.680 supposed to more often than that. And in the absence of those, the 273 00:21:42.759 --> 00:21:48.400 interactions tend to be about providing feedback to people. And it's just the nature 274 00:21:48.440 --> 00:21:55.000 of the beast is that feedback that is not scheduled is there for a reason. 275 00:21:55.359 --> 00:21:59.279 It came up because something happened, and then now a person needs feedback, 276 00:21:59.759 --> 00:22:03.599 and we just don't do that as often for positive things. We don't 277 00:22:03.599 --> 00:22:07.640 do that as often for someone did something well. And so what happens is 278 00:22:07.680 --> 00:22:12.440 there's the you know, feedback you know, gets stuck with this negative connotation 279 00:22:12.920 --> 00:22:17.559 because it deserves it. It deserves that negative connotation because the last ten times 280 00:22:17.720 --> 00:22:22.119 an employee got feedback from their direct boss, it was because they needed to 281 00:22:22.200 --> 00:22:26.480 change something and it doesn't that we're not talking about like work ending or you 282 00:22:26.519 --> 00:22:29.359 know, like I'm worried about getting fired type of things. It could be 283 00:22:29.720 --> 00:22:33.039 tiny little things just to get feedback on. But if they if it is 284 00:22:33.079 --> 00:22:36.960 critiquing feedback, something needs to change and they're all like that, or the 285 00:22:37.039 --> 00:22:41.480 vast majority is like that. It leads to a general aversion to feedback, 286 00:22:41.759 --> 00:22:45.640 not wanting to receive it because that's what it's going to be or likely to 287 00:22:45.680 --> 00:22:49.440 be. And when you have regular one on one scheduled, then there's this 288 00:22:49.519 --> 00:22:55.920 almost permission to have a time scheduled where if I'm if I have this time 289 00:22:55.960 --> 00:22:59.759 scheduled, now I have nothing to critique this person on, but I have 290 00:22:59.839 --> 00:23:03.000 this time. Let's find out what they're doing right. Let's give them some 291 00:23:03.720 --> 00:23:06.640 good feedback on what they're doing right. You do that often enough, and 292 00:23:06.759 --> 00:23:11.559 you decouple the idea of feedback and critiquing, and it becomes feedback is just 293 00:23:11.559 --> 00:23:18.039 feedback and sometimes it's critiquing and sometimes it's not. And when employees believe that 294 00:23:18.599 --> 00:23:23.400 about feedback, they're more likely to give it and give it well, and 295 00:23:23.480 --> 00:23:27.680 they're more likely to receive it well. You know, when people say nobody 296 00:23:27.720 --> 00:23:30.880 likes getting feedback. It's like, no, that's not true. No one 297 00:23:30.960 --> 00:23:33.200 likes getting a feedback when they know it's going to be negative. That's that's 298 00:23:33.279 --> 00:23:37.799 all. And so I think that's a big, big part of it. 299 00:23:37.880 --> 00:23:41.640 But it takes so much intentional work. And I don't mean hard work, 300 00:23:41.920 --> 00:23:47.839 I mean consistent work. It's not hard. It's just hard to prioritize it 301 00:23:47.920 --> 00:23:51.279 for a lot of people if they're not getting the support from their own boss 302 00:23:51.319 --> 00:23:53.599 to make that a priority too. So it really starts at the top. 303 00:23:53.640 --> 00:23:59.000 You can't have leaders at the top saying this isn't important, or at least 304 00:23:59.039 --> 00:24:02.799 not putting importance on it, and then expect the people below them will place 305 00:24:03.920 --> 00:24:07.640 a higher level of importance on it. I agree with you. In organizations 306 00:24:07.759 --> 00:24:14.799 where you have seen a lack of psychological safety, how have you addressed that? 307 00:24:15.240 --> 00:24:18.240 Because you use assessments in advance, you know what you're getting yourself into 308 00:24:18.240 --> 00:24:21.799 when you meet with teams. Obviously, I'm sure you've seen teams that have 309 00:24:22.160 --> 00:24:25.599 higher levels of psychological safety than others. What are some of the things that 310 00:24:25.640 --> 00:24:30.160 you're saying to leaders if you don't see evidence of high psychological safety amongst the 311 00:24:30.200 --> 00:24:36.799 team we've got specific programs that we put leaders through and we put executive teams 312 00:24:36.839 --> 00:24:41.200 through to help work through lots of these issues. So we've got programs to 313 00:24:41.359 --> 00:24:48.279 help people understand one another's strengths and appreciate one another better. We've got programs 314 00:24:48.359 --> 00:24:53.839 to help people understand their change profiles. We have programs on conflict. But 315 00:24:53.880 --> 00:24:59.799 where there's issues of psychological safety, it's really important to work with the leaders 316 00:25:00.000 --> 00:25:03.559 directly, one on one and help them understand what it is about their own 317 00:25:03.720 --> 00:25:11.359 style that's creating a situation and an environment that's unsafe. And so that's a 318 00:25:11.480 --> 00:25:15.759 really individualized response. Can I get an example like what you don't have to 319 00:25:15.799 --> 00:25:21.000 give me a name of a company, obviously, but something that you if 320 00:25:21.039 --> 00:25:25.559 a leader has come to you, obviously they have a desire to at least 321 00:25:25.599 --> 00:25:27.319 something, for something to be different. Otherwise they wouldn't have reached out to 322 00:25:27.920 --> 00:25:32.920 your organization to begin with. And if they're reaching out, at least it 323 00:25:33.000 --> 00:25:36.000 shows a desire for things to be different, which is a good starting place. 324 00:25:36.559 --> 00:25:41.480 And if you find that there's low psychological safety, what are some of 325 00:25:41.519 --> 00:25:44.279 the things you tell leaders to do to be able to change that. If 326 00:25:44.319 --> 00:25:47.440 they genuinely want to make a change. What can they do? We work 327 00:25:47.480 --> 00:25:52.759 with teams to help them build trust with people on the team. And so 328 00:25:52.000 --> 00:25:57.839 the best way to help in situations where there is a lack of safety is 329 00:25:57.880 --> 00:26:06.799 to encourage and facilitate really difficult conversations and to help a leader to be open 330 00:26:06.920 --> 00:26:10.519 to hearing what they need to hear, and to help a member of the 331 00:26:10.599 --> 00:26:15.720 team figure out the best way to say what they need to say. And 332 00:26:15.799 --> 00:26:21.640 so facilitating those really hard conversations is part of what we do. And depending 333 00:26:21.680 --> 00:26:26.880 on what the situation is, sometimes multiple people are involved and multiple people feel 334 00:26:26.960 --> 00:26:33.160 the environmental strain, and sometimes it's individual just between a diet or a triad, 335 00:26:33.519 --> 00:26:37.039 and so we figure that out and sometimes it's in a breakout scenario. 336 00:26:37.279 --> 00:26:42.359 Sometimes it's a full room and we facilitate those conversations. But you're talking about 337 00:26:42.359 --> 00:26:48.279 like not role plays specifically, but doing this when it isn't about a specific 338 00:26:48.319 --> 00:26:52.519 issue, it's actually happening. Are you talking about actually working through a real 339 00:26:52.559 --> 00:26:56.039 world thing with leaders and employees in the moment, like where you're in the 340 00:26:56.079 --> 00:27:00.720 room with them one hundred percent? So recently I was working with a team 341 00:27:00.039 --> 00:27:07.440 and a very very difficult topic came up and the team was having a difficult 342 00:27:07.480 --> 00:27:11.359 time admitting something to the leader in the room. And I stopped in the 343 00:27:11.440 --> 00:27:15.960 room and I said, let's all stop right now and recognize what's happening. 344 00:27:15.039 --> 00:27:18.759 It sounds like it's really difficult for you to say to this leader what you 345 00:27:18.839 --> 00:27:22.640 need to say. Is that true? And the person said yes, And 346 00:27:22.680 --> 00:27:26.079 I said can you tell us why? And the person said well, and 347 00:27:26.599 --> 00:27:30.279 the person felt very nervous. We don't really give negative feedback to the leader. 348 00:27:30.559 --> 00:27:33.359 And I said, well, let's all just press pause and talk about 349 00:27:33.400 --> 00:27:37.039 it. And so we opened up a conversation with the CEO in the room 350 00:27:37.079 --> 00:27:42.039 and the entire team and talked about why we don't want to give difficult feedback 351 00:27:42.039 --> 00:27:45.240 to the CEO, what the issue is. And I said, to the 352 00:27:45.279 --> 00:27:48.920 CEO, are you hearing this, what's your feedback to this? How does 353 00:27:48.960 --> 00:27:52.200 it feel to you to hear the team saying that it's hard to give feedback 354 00:27:52.279 --> 00:27:56.359 to you? What is your response? How do you feel about that? 355 00:27:56.440 --> 00:28:03.079 And I facilitated a live in the moment conversation about why it's hard for that 356 00:28:03.160 --> 00:28:07.960 team to share feedback with the CEO. And I facilitated a conversation for the 357 00:28:07.000 --> 00:28:12.640 CEO to respond back about how that person does or doesn't want to hear feedback 358 00:28:12.680 --> 00:28:18.359 from the team. Do you think we're Do you think the majority of times 359 00:28:18.400 --> 00:28:26.000 when situations like that happen, the person is aware but was putting their head 360 00:28:26.039 --> 00:28:30.720 in the sand, or unaware and shocked and really, you know, I 361 00:28:30.279 --> 00:28:33.880 need to change this now. I didn't realize this was the case. You 362 00:28:33.880 --> 00:28:36.920 know, what is it? Where? Do you think it kind of falls 363 00:28:36.960 --> 00:28:41.079 more? I think it's case by case. I've I've seen both. Sometimes 364 00:28:41.440 --> 00:28:47.720 sometimes I see somebody say, I know I've heard this before and I'm working 365 00:28:47.759 --> 00:28:52.799 on it and I don't want people to feel this way. And other times 366 00:28:52.160 --> 00:28:56.680 I see a deer in the headlights and a person responds and says, oh 367 00:28:56.759 --> 00:29:02.880 my gosh, I'm I'm so surprised that you feel that way. It's interesting, 368 00:29:03.480 --> 00:29:07.319 do you is one of those reactions or scenarios easier to fix than the 369 00:29:07.359 --> 00:29:14.200 other. I think what makes something easiest to address is when a person is 370 00:29:14.519 --> 00:29:21.359 interested in being better. It's less about whether or not the person knew it 371 00:29:21.519 --> 00:29:29.240 before and more about how a person receives feedback and whether they care enough to 372 00:29:29.440 --> 00:29:33.279 want to be better. Have you been fortunate enough to work with people who 373 00:29:33.440 --> 00:29:36.240 mostly do that? You know? I mean, how do you have you 374 00:29:36.440 --> 00:29:41.480 Have you ever said to a leader flat out, you hired us to work 375 00:29:41.519 --> 00:29:48.200 with you, things need to change on your end or the results you're expecting 376 00:29:48.200 --> 00:29:51.079 out of us to help you aren't going to happen. This actually needs to 377 00:29:51.160 --> 00:29:55.039 change from your end and have them kind of you know, you come up 378 00:29:55.079 --> 00:29:59.799 with roadblocks where they're just unwilling to change. Rarely because the teams that hire 379 00:30:00.240 --> 00:30:03.880 and bring us in want to be better, So we don't come up against 380 00:30:04.079 --> 00:30:08.079 a lot of people that don't want to be better. They're bringing in a 381 00:30:08.160 --> 00:30:15.119 company like Assemble because it's important to them to elevate their leadership games. So 382 00:30:15.319 --> 00:30:21.640 they're rolling up their sleeves and they're digging in, and they know that they're 383 00:30:21.720 --> 00:30:25.440 going to have some hard conversations. And we tell them in advance what we're 384 00:30:25.480 --> 00:30:29.759 going to do and what their experiences are going to be like. We coach 385 00:30:29.880 --> 00:30:32.640 them, we do fractional work, we do a bunch of other things, 386 00:30:32.680 --> 00:30:37.720 but in our off sites, people are going into these sessions knowing that they're 387 00:30:37.759 --> 00:30:42.119 going to be having really important, meaningful, transformational discussions. I love that. 388 00:30:42.119 --> 00:30:45.799 I think it's very very important work. Give our listeners and ask where 389 00:30:45.799 --> 00:30:48.799 can they go to learn more about your company and what you do In case 390 00:30:49.039 --> 00:30:52.559 you know this work sounds like something that they would like to be more part 391 00:30:52.559 --> 00:30:57.160 of. We can be found on the wonderful world Wide Web at www dot 392 00:30:57.440 --> 00:31:03.039 hr assemble A S, S E, M B L E, and you 393 00:31:03.079 --> 00:31:06.039 can find me on LinkedIn at Jill Katz. Thank you so much for being 394 00:31:06.039 --> 00:31:07.160 with us today, Jill, I appreciate it, and your listeners look at 395 00:31:07.200 --> 00:31:10.839 a lot of the out of the conversation awesome. Thanks for having me. 396 00:31:10.960 --> 00:31:11.559 So glad to be here with you today.