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Hello, and welcome to Open Mind
UFO Radio. I am your host,

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Alejandro Rojas, and I have with
me the ever pleasant Jason McClellan. I'll

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try to be extra pleasant today.
Sometimes you you you know, have some

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snarky remarks to when I kind of
tease you and stuff, and I think

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people don't realize that always because I've
had people say, oh, you guys

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were fighting, and it's like,
no, we weren't fighting. That Jason

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is actually a very always, a
very pleasant person. I'm very pleased to

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hear that we actually fool people sometimes
into thinking that we're having a nice fight.

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In fact, I don't think i've
ever heard you get mad, raise

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your voice or get frustrated at someone. Hmm, well, I'll work harder.

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I know you get frustrated with our
boss sometimes, but when we're just

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arguing, you know, different ideas
about stuff. But I've never heard you

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be like you sort of a bad
No. I don't recall ever getting getting

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upset at work. You know.
That's that's the wonderful thing about absolutely loving

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what we do. I mean,
we're so for to be able to do

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what we love and uh, you
know, we're doing something extremely exciting so

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even when we have conversations and disagreements
or differing opinions with each other or people

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in this field, it's still I
don't know. To me, I don't

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see any point in getting upset or
angry at people. I just listen to

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what they have to say and I
say my piece and there we go.

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Right. Yeah, although the one
who gets probably the most like genuinely we

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can give some behind the scenes and
give them some information. She won't like

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me probably saying this. It's Maureen. Huh, she gets a little more

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fiery sometimes. Well, Maureen is
fiery and she's a woman, and I

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know that you don't. You don't
mess with a woman. Very true,

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very true. For any guys out
there who are having woman problems, it's

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probably because you are just fighting too
much when you should just chill out and

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be like, okay, you know, is it that bic of a deal?

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Sit through? Watch you know,
the Housewives of New Jersey or something.

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Sometimes you just got to do it. The rule in retail is the

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customer is always right, But the
rule in life in general is the woman

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is always right. Yep. That's
the way it goes, all right,

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Well, a little bit of advice, some romance advice from Jason and I

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this morning before we get into the
business. And the business is we have

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an interview coming up, and this
is one of my favorite people. I

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think yours too, Jason Norio Hayakawa. Yes, love Norio. Yeah,

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his name is so fun to say
too, Hayakawa, such a cool name.

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But Norio is really active on his
Facebook site where he is posting stuff

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all the time. He focuses on
research into the alleged Dulce UFO based triangular

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UFOs Area fifty one, that kind
of stuff. Definitely very focused on New

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Mexico. He's part of New Mexico
Move On. I know he goes to

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those meetings and I think he helps
out with the Albuquerque chapter and he is

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We've talked to him before about some
of this stuff. But he's having a

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conference this weekend called the New Mexico
UFO Conference. It's just a day long,

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you know, kind of a short
gig. It's only twenty bucks.

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He's having mostly well a few locals
and a few not locals, so he's

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having Michael Schratt, our buddy who
used to work with us at Open Minds,

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has gone on to other things,
but still a great researcher. Actually

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talked to him the other day,
Jason, so he's alive and well.

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But Norio's going to talk about New
Mexico UFO culture. Well he's going to

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tell us more about what everybody's going
to talk about. But Greg Valdez,

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Travis Walton, and David Marler some
great stuff. So Mario and I are

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going to talk about this conference and
his research in just a little while,

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so stay tuned for that. But
before that, Jason and I are going

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to talk about some UFOs in the
news, So big Jay, UFOs in

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the nude, in the nude,
Oh you said news. Yeah, that's

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still exciting. It's a little less
exciting, but it's still exciting. Yeah.

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It seems that when people portray UFOs
a lot, especially the real evil

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ones, they're attractive nude young women. And I'm talking about the movies people,

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so don't get on me for you
know, because you had the one

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where like they were vampires. Remember
that one with the naked girl walking around

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like England. It was with the
guy who plays Jean Luke Bicard. You

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remember that. I don't know what
shows you're watching there, buddy, No

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it was a yeah, that was
who plays Jean Luke Picard. No,

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you know very well, Lejandro.
I can't remember his name right now.

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You can't either. Stuart Uh yeah, Patrick Stewart one of my favorite people.

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But yeah, he's in this this
movie. He's a cop like chasing

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down this alien. But then you
have the one was that Natasha Kinski is

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at her name? And then you
have this this latest one with Scarlett Johansson,

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uh, where they just kind of
used their feminine wiles and Megan Fox

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was one and they killed the guys, so kind of a black widow kind

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of thing. Movies don't lie,
Alejandro. Aliens are sexy. So but

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you're the one who brought up UFOs
and nude nudes. I thought you said

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UFO's in the nude. Yeah,
but actually the news so out of this

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last week, mister Jason, what
are your top story or stories? Well,

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I just want to mention something about
the widely known about UFO sighting.

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The Rendolsom Forest incident, heralded by
some is perhaps the best UFO sighting ever.

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Well now the Forestry Commission in the
UK has decided to commemorate the incident

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by putting a large metal sculpture depicting
a UFO. This is pretty cool,

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Alejandra. I like when these events
are actually commemorated. We saw this what

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was it last year in Australia with
the west All incident, and a couple

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of years ago there was a marker
erected to commemorate the Betty Barney Hill incident.

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So UFO tourism is actually a thing
and some places, especially in the

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UK or are trying to take advantage
of it. But I do like that

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they built this little replica of the
ship that was allegedly seen in the forest

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back in nineteen eighty. So I
would like to go see this thing.

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Yeah, me too. It's really
cool and I'll talk about it more.

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But I've talked a lot with John
Burrows, one of the witnesses, and

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he says it's not exactly in the
right place, but it's pretty cool.

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And it's actually a rendition off of
what Jim Peniston says he saw, because

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he said he actually walked up and
touched this thing before it flew off.

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So yeah, pretty cool. An
artist did it, and she has What's

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funny is I guess some of the
markers from the trail because it's a trail,

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and when you reach the end of
the trail, you see this big

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art piece on the side of it, and they look weird, but they're

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not like supposed to be alien writing, even though they kind of look like

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it. It's kind of just her
artists rendition. But yeah, very cool.

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And they seem very open to the
idea. I mean, they're saying

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they're not confirming it's alien, but
they say we're open to it, and

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lots of people believe that. And
they seem themselves very open to the idea

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that you know, this was a
genuine mystery. Yeah, they were careful

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to state that they're not taking a
position with the incident. They're not saying

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it was aliens, but they're definitely
acknowledging that something happened. Pretty cool,

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very cool. And this was the
week of rendellshim because of course that's why

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I was in contact with John Burrows. Because the next day or no the

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same day we posted that, we
posted a story about the UK Ministry of

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Defense to release eighteen more files.
And this guy's kind of confusing. So

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stay with me here, Jason and
friends. So the Daily Star, I

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wrote to say story about eighteen more
UFO files to be released, and they

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had a quote from Nick Pope where
he's pretty much saying this is really embarrassing

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for the Mood. They said they
released all the UFO files and now they

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haven't. Lots of UFO people or
conspiracy people said they were still hiding files.

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And they turned out to be right
and so very interesting stories. So

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I did some more research to find
out, well, where did the Daily

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Star hear about these files? And
on the Mood website I found a document

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to a foyer request that said this
person asked for some very specific documents,

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and the response says, we do
have these documents, and several others were

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going to release those, but first
we have to analyze them and send them

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over to the National Archives and that's
going to take about nine months. I

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assumed the Daily Star had written about
this thing on the Mood website, so

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that's what I put in my story
and everything. It turns out John Burrows,

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one of the other witnesses, got
a hold of me and he says,

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hey, on the hauntra where did
you get that? Because I haven't.

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I don't think I sent that to
you. And you know, actually

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they told me months ago they were
going to release these files, and that

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Nick Pope's The Daily Star story was
because I sent them information on September fifteenth

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about the release of these files and
how I'm pursuing more files than some other

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interesting facts about Rental Force I figured
out. So I looked into it and

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we got a response from this guy
named Andy Russell who said no, that

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letters from me from September, and
that was the Ministry of Defense responding to

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me on September sixteenth, So this
is interesting. John Burrows actually submitted the

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original Foyer request back in December and
they had told him, yeah, we

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found eighteen files and we're going to
release them. He talked about this in

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Sedona here in Arizona, and a
couple of people Larry Lowe and Billy Cox

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wrote about him saying that and about
those files and shame on me for not

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reading their stories because I didn't even
realize this, and I should, you

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know, we should out because we
try to keep track of everything. So

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this guy Andy saw that those stories
and he did his own request for those

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files based off of Larry Low's story
on this is John Burrows Sedona talk and

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then the mod responded to him.
But coincidentally, John Burrow sent out his

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press release to just UK Media on
the fifteenth, and then on the sixteenth,

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the Mod posts this letter in a
response to Andy about the same topic.

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How weird is that? I mean, are we to believe that's coincidence?

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It always could be, but that's
one heck of a coincidence. Yeah,

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it's hard to think of it.
I don't know, I'm having a

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hard time. Of course. John
Burrows doesn't believe it to be a coincidence,

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but he thinks themod's playing tricks on
him and being funky with him,

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and he has other evidence and has
told me these stories about the Mood doing

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that and doing some weird stuff with
him, and he supposedly has uncovered some

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really cool stuff. But yeah,
how wild is that? The Mood posts

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on their website about these eighteen files
the day before John Burrow sends out his

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press release, and then that you
know, Daily Star next day writes about

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it. It's kind of like the
Mood wanted to preempt the Daily Star story

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or anybody else writing about it,
or maybe even seem like, oh,

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we're not hiding secrets, you know, this is you know, we're being

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public about this. When they really
kind of weren't because they had only why

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when they respond to Burrows in December
or January not post it until September sixteenth.

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It's really strange, it is,
the whole story is strange. Yeah,

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I'm interested to see what comes out
with those files. Yeah. And

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then on top of that, you
know, in my discussions with Burrows,

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he pointed something else out to me. That's really cool that in two thousand

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the MOD had a report done on
UFOs, and Burrows says this report was

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essentially their evaluation of UFOs in order
to get out of the UFO business.

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It's something like twenty one pages.
It's a very long document. You can

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still go download it on the UK's
website and we have the links to our

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story. But he points out and
he was shocked to see this, and

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he was very dismayed with other UFO
researchers, namely David Clark, and you

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know, he wonders why Nick Pope
didn't spot this. This document that evaluates

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UFOs didn't come out until two thousand
and six. At that time, David

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Clark looked it over. He said
there was really nothing new and nothing new

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about Rendalsham in here. I guess
Nick Pope also maybe missed this, but

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Nick Pope supposedly went over it and
didn't find this also, but John Burrows

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went through it and was shocked to
find there's this section about radiation and UFOs,

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and there's a part that says that
people in Rendalsham Forest and they call

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him UAPs Unidentified aerial phenomena, you
know, And John Burrow thinks they changed

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their name from UFO to UAP,
so people putting four your requests for UFOs

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wouldn't get the UAP stuff. Another
interesting thing where it could be some tricks

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being played by the mod but and
they've admitted to playing tricks in the past,

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so exactly surprising exactly. So this
says, yeah, that the Rendall

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Schremp Forest guys had seen a UFO
for a period of time, so they

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could have been exposed to UAP radiation
for a long period of time. And

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now Burrows is sick, he has
heart problems, so is Peniston, and

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they've been trying to get their medical
records from this period of time and the

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military has their records have been screwed
up. So Burrows, for instance,

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didn't even show he was in the
military for this period of time when he

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was he had to go to his
senator out here, to John McCain,

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and he was living in Arizona and
Arizona at the time. They said,

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we were able to get your records
fixed. Now you show you were in

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service from seventy nine on, which
he was, but we'll probably never be

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able to get your military health medical
records from that time period. Really strange

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stuff, I mean, talk about
conspiracy stuff. You know, Why would

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these two guys have their medical risk
records missing from this period of time.

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It's it's really weird, crazy story. And that's one of the for me,

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one of the more interesting elements to
the entire Renders From story, you

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know, because to me that that
does indicate that there's something there that somebody

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doesn't want anybody to find. But
this whole thing paints a bigger picture of,

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you know, just fuel for conspiracy
theorists. They don't they don't forgive

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any reason, uh, you know, to dissuade any of these conspiracies,

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unless they intentionally want conspiracies going.
But it's like they fuel the fire intentionally

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exactly so much there and it's so
bizarre exactly, I mean, uh,

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if they if the you think they
would be more careful if they're trying to

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suppress this idea that there's a big
conspiracy. But I mean, all of

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this does smack for some sort of
cover up going on, so it's very

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strange. Burrow says he's found a
lot more information that he's still gathering and

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that he'll give us and we'll help
release it. I figured we just try

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to tackle this in bite sized pieces
because it's all very complicated. But really,

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people, you got to go check
out this UK it's called UK Defense

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Intelligence suggests witnesses may have been exposed
to UFO radiation. That's the story.

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So come and get up to date
on this. And you know, I

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think we only need to support John
Burrows in his efforts. And I've got

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to say I was really impressed with
the work that Burrows has done so far,

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learning how to do foyas and doing
all of this research going to McCain.

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He's done a lot of great stuff. Some of this is outlined in

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the book, the recent book that
Nick Pope wrote that with him and Peniston,

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but there's only a little bit.
So he feels that, you know,

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more of the story needs to be
told and I told him more certainly

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more than happy to cover it and
write about it. So really really interesting

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stuff. I think this is going
to be an important story going forward.

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I think it's the man. Why
all of a sudden is there all of

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this news about Rendlesham. Yeah,
that's another weird thing, huh. I

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mean yeah, I mean it's coincidentally. You know, the same day you

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have the story or a couple of
days you have the story about the art

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piece going up. Then you have
the files being posted on the mod website

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and the story and the press conference
thing going out. It is strange.

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Didn't they just have a conference well
over there too? Yeah? Really good

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point, because that had to do. The original press release was released by

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the conference on September fifteenth, and
they have a press release that outlines this

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and it went out to the media
and they put it on their website.

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However, John Burrows included that press
release and a whole press kit that he

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sent to the UK newspapers and he
also sent it to us and that's where

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I was able to get more of
this information. But so they had all

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the papers, had a lot of
information and it's really I think disappointing of

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the Daily Star that all they did
was really say there's going to be more

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files out. They use these quotes
from Nick Pope, which are great quotes,

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but they didn't write about all this
other stuff, which is really also

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very interesting. They didn't mention anything
about Burrows having problems getting his medical records.

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I mean, that's a big deal. I would think, Well,

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the Daily Star isn't known for its
quality reporting. Oh oh no, you

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did. No, I didn't say
anything. Yeah, they're kind of a

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tabloid type of paper which is very
popular. Oh yes, yeah, so

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really good Steph. And then I
want to ask you about one more Jason,

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if you if you would humor me
for a minute, this story about

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this UFO swerving out of the way
or this airplane swerving out of the way

244
00:21:34.920 --> 00:21:38.960
of UFO, What do you make
of this, this whole thing. It's

245
00:21:38.960 --> 00:21:48.119
the drunk pilot. Ah No,
I don't think there's anything terribly crazy about

246
00:21:48.119 --> 00:21:55.119
this. Yes, it's a bizarre
airplane contrail that for whatever reason, seems

247
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to deviate from its flight path and
swerved over. The odd thing is here

248
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is that you know the paper that
covered this story. Talk to the photographer

249
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Florence Lehman, A school teacher,
and you know, based on the comments

250
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from this person, he said they
heard from somebody else that the pilot the

251
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plane was actually seen swerving, and
other people said they saw a UFO.

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But we don't have any testimony from
those people who apparently actually saw something.

253
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We just have the woman who photographed
the contrail. MM. So there's lots

254
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of hearsay testimony there. We don't
know what actually happened, right right.

255
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So, and another possibility something that
was suggested is win currents taking that particular

256
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spot. Do you think that's possible. I don't really think that's possible with

257
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that trail to day intact as much
as it appears to in the photo,

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because when wind does disperse the contrail, it spreads out, and you know,

259
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that seems very specific to that one
area, and the trail itself doesn't

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seem to dissipate at all. So
I don't I don't really think wind would

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do that, but I don't know. Yeah, I'm not an expert in

262
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air patterns and what they can do. So yeah, yep, I gotcha.

263
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Yeah, so interesting stuff. People
have to check that out, but

264
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it, uh, yeah, definitely
an interesting picture. So I wanted to

265
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see what you thought of that.
Yeah, you know, I would.

266
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I would think something more mysterious with
it, or think it was worthy of

267
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more discussion if we did, in
fact have more details from people who actually

268
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observed it rather than just somebody who
took a photo of a weird contrail.

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Right right? Ho? All right, well, thank you very much once

270
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again for joining me for the news. Mister Jason McClellan, join us again

271
00:24:00.920 --> 00:24:07.960
next time for UFOs in the Nude. Well, we could be we could

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tell people that we're doing UFOs in
the nude right now and no one would

273
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know. But then nobody would listen, even though it's just radio. That's

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still disturbing, that's true, because
then you get that in your your mind.

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That's right. And nobody wants to
see us in the nude. Well

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some people do, our women do. I hope yours does. No,

277
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nobody wants to see me in the
news. Wow, that's sad. All

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right, Okay, So we'll talk
to you next week, Jason. Why

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don't we now talk with mister Norio
Hayakawa. I am very excited to well,

280
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welcome back to the show. Norio
Hayakawa. Hello there, Hello Hendra,

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how are you good. How are
you doing? Oh, very fine

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and very excited about the upcoming event
right here in New Mexico. Oh my

283
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gosh, I am too. And
I was planning on going to be honest,

284
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and I was, and then I
was talking to you know how girlfriends

285
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always have to burst the bubble My
girlfriend the other day and she was like,

286
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well, that's the weekend. We
already have plans where we're going camping

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with the Phoenix move On because they
have a camping event every year. And

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I'm like, oh no, I
thought that was the different weekend. So

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I was going to drive out there
and check it out because you have some

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great speakers and yes, and I
hope it's fine. I hope that everybody

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else goes. Yes. I hope
so too, because this is the first

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time ever right here in the city
of Rio Rancho, which is the largest

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growing city in New Mexico and it's
right next to Albuquerque. But this is

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the first time ever for this city
to have a UFO conference. And the

295
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title is actually called an New Mexico
UFO Conference, And to my knowledge,

296
00:26:03.720 --> 00:26:11.000
there has never been a New Mexico
UFO conference before, and is it.

297
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It's a one day conference on Saturday, October fourth, Is that correct,

298
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That's correct, Saturday October fourth,
from one thirty pm to seven thirty pm.

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And this conference is going to be
held on the opening day of the

300
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famous Balloon Fiesta of Albuquerque. I
used to go to that every year my

301
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mom lived in Albuquerque for a while, and that was the other reason I

302
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wanted to make it this weekend,
because a balloon Fiesta is absolutely amazing.

303
00:26:40.640 --> 00:26:45.559
Oh yes, it is absolutely amazing. And the balloon Fiesta actually starts out

304
00:26:45.599 --> 00:26:52.240
early in the morning. It's early
morning event basically when the balloons start,

305
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you know, flying, so but
during the daytime it's very quiet and not

306
00:27:00.119 --> 00:27:03.240
much activity until the evening when they
have this night blow and so on.

307
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But during the daytime, nothing to
do. So this is the reason why

308
00:27:08.960 --> 00:27:12.960
we're having this conference, so that
people who come to balloon Fiesta will have

309
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something to do and find out about
this conference, they might stop buying,

310
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right. Yeah, And that's a
good point in that, you know,

311
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you get your double bang for your
butt going out there for the balloon Fiesta,

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00:27:26.799 --> 00:27:33.119
which I believe is the largest in
the world. Right, it is

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the largest balloon event in the world, I believe. Yeah, they launched

314
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something like a thousand hot air balloons. I remember that the numbers around there

315
00:27:45.279 --> 00:27:48.359
in the air at once. And
of course it's amazing because you get to

316
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walk the fair grounds as they're launching
these things, and each of the balloons

317
00:27:53.039 --> 00:27:56.519
is huge. I mean they're all
very big, and they launch them and

318
00:27:56.559 --> 00:28:00.079
it fills the sky and you know, all these people floating around up there.

319
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It's an incredible thing. It's amazing. And they come in all different

320
00:28:06.519 --> 00:28:12.920
kinds of shapes imaginable such as star
wars that shape, you know, all

321
00:28:14.039 --> 00:28:18.039
kinds. But I have yet to
see a flying saucer shape. Yeah,

322
00:28:18.079 --> 00:28:23.119
there's an alien one. Yeah,
there are alien ones. Yes, I

323
00:28:23.160 --> 00:28:27.759
would like to have a flying saucer
one soon. Yeah. So who are

324
00:28:27.759 --> 00:28:33.720
you having at your conference? Well, actually we are having four speakers,

325
00:28:33.039 --> 00:28:40.240
five speakers, including myself, and
we have Michael Schratt who will talk about

326
00:28:41.559 --> 00:28:48.440
man made UFOs and the America's black
budget programs. And then we have Greg

327
00:28:48.480 --> 00:28:53.680
Balvez, who is the son of
the late Gabe Balvez, whom you interviewed

328
00:28:53.720 --> 00:29:00.000
in a historic interview a few years
ago, I think in twenty eleven before

329
00:29:00.200 --> 00:29:03.480
he passed away, In fact,
a week before he passed away. You

330
00:29:03.680 --> 00:29:07.240
interviewed him, right, Yeah,
And I mean I think what happened to

331
00:29:07.440 --> 00:29:11.359
is I had him on and then
I had you on because you were able

332
00:29:11.400 --> 00:29:17.559
to arrange that for me. And
yeah, unfortunately he passed away soon after.

333
00:29:18.160 --> 00:29:25.039
Yes, and we're so happy to
have Greg Balds take over the research

334
00:29:25.759 --> 00:29:32.920
that his father has done all the
years about Dulce. And Greg Waldez carries

335
00:29:32.960 --> 00:29:37.519
on his father's legacy and he published
a book recently called A Dulcet Bass,

336
00:29:38.079 --> 00:29:44.880
and he'll talk about this amazing subject, the dulced Bass. And then of

337
00:29:44.920 --> 00:29:48.640
course we have David Marler who lives
right here in Rio Rancho, New Mexico.

338
00:29:49.359 --> 00:29:55.599
He is the author of this book
called Triangular UFOs, a very interesting

339
00:29:55.680 --> 00:30:00.279
subject. And then to finally,
you know, uh, top it off

340
00:30:00.319 --> 00:30:07.519
all, we have a Travis Walton
from Arizona who will talk about his unusual

341
00:30:07.559 --> 00:30:12.720
experience. You know, it's whether
one believes it or not. He claims

342
00:30:12.759 --> 00:30:18.039
that the experience is real and it's
probably real, and who are we to,

343
00:30:18.400 --> 00:30:26.119
you know, deny his experience and
because we really don't know what reality

344
00:30:26.720 --> 00:30:32.519
is anyway. So this is a
very interesting conference, a whole spectrum of

345
00:30:33.960 --> 00:30:41.079
ideas, and that's why we want
to explore this, and especially doing things

346
00:30:41.119 --> 00:30:45.359
like this in New Mexico is very
important because you know, New Mexico has

347
00:30:45.400 --> 00:30:51.960
an amazing Ufo history and culture,
no question about it. And that's going

348
00:30:52.039 --> 00:30:56.720
to be your topic. That is
my topic. It's about the amazing Ufo

349
00:30:56.960 --> 00:31:03.440
history and culture of New Mexico,
which is one of the most unique states

350
00:31:04.400 --> 00:31:11.200
in so far as the history of
the UFOs are concerned. And you know,

351
00:31:11.279 --> 00:31:17.160
even today, New Mexico is considered
to be a state that continues to

352
00:31:17.240 --> 00:31:26.000
have a lot of citing reports and
well do you have a sense as to

353
00:31:26.160 --> 00:31:33.480
why. Well, actually, New
Mexico is a huge state. It's the

354
00:31:33.519 --> 00:31:38.359
fifth largest state in Union, with
a population of only two million in the

355
00:31:38.519 --> 00:31:47.000
entire state, and so it has
a tremendous space, the vast space for

356
00:31:48.319 --> 00:31:52.079
you know, first of all,
for a government to conduct any kind of

357
00:31:52.119 --> 00:31:59.559
experiment or any kind of secret projects. And of course, this would be

358
00:31:59.759 --> 00:32:07.920
the the most ideal state in the
United States for any kind of outside possible

359
00:32:08.680 --> 00:32:15.440
intelligence. If they were to find
out about Earth, New Mexico is probably

360
00:32:15.480 --> 00:32:22.640
the first place they would look for
because it has the most advanced military research

361
00:32:22.160 --> 00:32:29.880
development programs ever since nineteen forty five
and earlier, because this is the first

362
00:32:30.000 --> 00:32:38.000
state in which the nuclear explosion took
place and tested, and after World War

363
00:32:38.079 --> 00:32:44.880
Two maybe many other tests of different
kinds were conducted, and so this would

364
00:32:44.880 --> 00:32:51.920
be an ideal place for those entities. If they were to be here,

365
00:32:52.079 --> 00:32:57.880
this would be would be the first
place they would come. Not that I'm

366
00:32:57.920 --> 00:33:01.279
saying that they are here or something
like that, but I'm just saying that,

367
00:33:01.680 --> 00:33:05.599
you know, this will be an
ideal location. Yeah, it would

368
00:33:05.680 --> 00:33:08.720
make sense, and especially if,
like many people, of course, Robert

369
00:33:08.720 --> 00:33:14.079
Hastings is kind of the pioneer in
the field of UFOs and nukes, if

370
00:33:14.759 --> 00:33:20.079
there really is, you know,
something too, extraterrestrials being interested in our

371
00:33:20.200 --> 00:33:25.000
nuclear abilities, and it would make
sense that they would be there in New

372
00:33:25.039 --> 00:33:29.839
Mexico, like you said, where
it all started. And I think they

373
00:33:30.000 --> 00:33:35.960
still write they still dismantle nuclear warheads
at Curtland Air Force Base there in Albuquerque.

374
00:33:36.079 --> 00:33:42.519
Is that or in the Manzana area. Yes, the actually it's under

375
00:33:42.720 --> 00:33:47.799
Cortland Air Force Base now, but
both the Manzano Base, which had the

376
00:33:47.920 --> 00:33:55.000
underground nuclear storage facility, is continuing
on in another part of Courtland Air Force

377
00:33:55.039 --> 00:34:07.400
Base. Underground and they are definitely
storing many of the sensitive materials even today.

378
00:34:08.079 --> 00:34:15.400
And so you know, insofar as
nuclear materials, Albuquerque's Cutland Air Force

379
00:34:15.440 --> 00:34:22.360
Base is very, very significant and
important. And what's interesting in all of

380
00:34:22.400 --> 00:34:29.320
this, Alejandro, is that it
all started in nineteen forty seven, the

381
00:34:29.440 --> 00:34:35.159
very same year that a lot of
things started happening. Yeah, yeah,

382
00:34:35.239 --> 00:34:42.239
it's strange. What are your thoughts
about nineteen forty seven and all the important

383
00:34:42.239 --> 00:34:46.920
things that seem to have begun in
that year? Exactly as I said,

384
00:34:49.519 --> 00:34:54.239
you know, the actually the Sandia
National Laboratories, which is one of the

385
00:34:54.400 --> 00:35:05.639
largest defense contracting corporation oranization started in
nineteen forty seven right here in Albuquerque,

386
00:35:05.719 --> 00:35:09.440
New Mexico. And the Kirkland Air
Force Base became the air Force Base in

387
00:35:09.519 --> 00:35:15.079
nineteen forty seven. It was just
an army airfield until then. And then,

388
00:35:15.079 --> 00:35:19.679
of course nineteen forty seven was the
very same year that the CIA was

389
00:35:19.800 --> 00:35:24.800
established as well as NSA, the
National Security Act passed in nineteen forty seven.

390
00:35:25.440 --> 00:35:34.719
So there you have the strange coincidences
regarding nineteen forty seven and over in

391
00:35:34.880 --> 00:35:42.760
Nevada in nineteen forty seven, actually
the egn G Corporation, which is the

392
00:35:42.840 --> 00:35:53.400
first contractor to land itself as a
contracting service at Area fifty one. They

393
00:35:53.519 --> 00:35:59.559
started in nineteen forty seven, even
though Area fifty one actually began in nineteen

394
00:35:59.599 --> 00:36:06.400
fifty one. Five. It's interesting
that the EG and G Corporation also started

395
00:36:06.400 --> 00:36:09.880
in nineteen forty seven. Wow,
it almost makes now I know, and

396
00:36:09.920 --> 00:36:15.320
we'll get into this, that you're
we would be considered a conservative researcher,

397
00:36:15.360 --> 00:36:21.320
which is something I very much appreciate. But when you think in nineteen forty

398
00:36:21.360 --> 00:36:23.480
seven, and you know, I
was thinking UFO wise, but other,

399
00:36:23.880 --> 00:36:27.920
you know, other important things like
you mentioned, but you've just mentioned some

400
00:36:27.960 --> 00:36:32.039
more I didn't even realize. It
almost makes you think of a metaphysical kind

401
00:36:32.079 --> 00:36:37.559
of answers. Why you know nineteen
forty seven seemed oppy special, like the

402
00:36:37.639 --> 00:36:42.880
stars were aligned in the correct way
or something going on there. Well,

403
00:36:43.440 --> 00:36:46.239
it's a good question, you know, as is everybody know who's in nineteen

404
00:36:46.280 --> 00:36:53.440
forty seven you had this incident at
Roswell, which we still don't know what

405
00:36:54.000 --> 00:37:00.400
the real truth about at Roswell is, you know, And then of course

406
00:37:00.159 --> 00:37:05.599
in nineteen forty seven, not only
Roswell, but other locations in New Mexico

407
00:37:05.679 --> 00:37:10.280
had a strange incidence of something crashing. And for example, on July third,

408
00:37:10.400 --> 00:37:17.880
nineteen forty seven, an object crashed
outside of Magdalena and Datil, which

409
00:37:17.960 --> 00:37:25.000
is right near the VLA very large
array complex. It's in the plains of

410
00:37:25.039 --> 00:37:31.280
San Agustine. And this crash of
an object on the plains of San Agustine

411
00:37:31.320 --> 00:37:36.679
took place in nineteen forty seven,
on July third, and it's very significant.

412
00:37:37.480 --> 00:37:42.360
And speaking about New Mexico, yes, in August of nineteen forty five,

413
00:37:43.360 --> 00:37:47.840
I believe it or not, a
strange object crashed outside of a small

414
00:37:47.880 --> 00:37:53.039
town called San Antonio, New Mexico, which is just south of SoCoRo,

415
00:37:53.239 --> 00:37:59.760
and it was witnessed by a few
people there. And so people think that,

416
00:38:00.840 --> 00:38:05.199
you know, when it comes to
UFOs, New Mexico is just Roswell,

417
00:38:05.239 --> 00:38:09.119
but it's not true. There's more
to New Mexico's UFO history than just

418
00:38:09.239 --> 00:38:15.960
Roswell. In fact, there are
more interesting and important incidents in New Mexico,

419
00:38:16.800 --> 00:38:23.360
such as, for example, in
nineteen fifty in a small town of

420
00:38:23.400 --> 00:38:30.760
Farmington in northwest New Mexico, for
three days in a row, Alejandro every

421
00:38:30.840 --> 00:38:37.800
day around noontime, hundreds of Farmington
residents witnessed hundreds of silver disc shaped object

422
00:38:37.880 --> 00:38:43.159
maneuvering in the sky over their town. And this is just one of the

423
00:38:43.199 --> 00:38:52.000
most amazing mass UFO sightings ever in
the history of UFO in America. Yeah,

424
00:38:52.280 --> 00:38:55.920
yeah, I know, that's one
that David Marler's really interested. He

425
00:38:57.039 --> 00:39:02.639
sent me a life size clipping of
the newspaper just recently. But yeah,

426
00:39:02.679 --> 00:39:06.960
because there was at least one picture, but I think it was unknown who

427
00:39:06.960 --> 00:39:09.639
took it that resulted out of that, and it's a pretty amazing picture.

428
00:39:10.079 --> 00:39:14.440
It is an amazing picture, and
it's black and white, and of course

429
00:39:14.480 --> 00:39:21.360
that was nineteen fifty and in my
opinion, it's a very very very important

430
00:39:21.400 --> 00:39:24.679
picture. And I'm glad one hundred
because I understand that it was through you

431
00:39:24.920 --> 00:39:30.679
that that picture came about. Well, it was actually a Wendell Stevens picture,

432
00:39:30.760 --> 00:39:32.519
so he gets all the credit.
But yeah, we have his record.

433
00:39:32.679 --> 00:39:37.559
So I scan that and we've got
it in our magazine and I got

434
00:39:37.599 --> 00:39:42.679
one for David and and I think
we have it online too. I think

435
00:39:42.719 --> 00:39:45.880
we have a video about it actually
as well. I'm talking about that siding,

436
00:39:45.880 --> 00:39:49.719
because yeah, that's a that's a
great sighting. Yes, you know,

437
00:39:49.880 --> 00:39:54.360
and so we don't know what really
happened, but we're talking about hundreds

438
00:39:54.480 --> 00:40:02.079
up to five hundred did shake objects
maneuvering over Farmington during the daytime, and

439
00:40:02.320 --> 00:40:07.039
this is just this is hard to
imagine, but it happened. It occupied

440
00:40:07.079 --> 00:40:12.840
the front page newspaper of Farmington Daily
Times, and then also it was reported

441
00:40:12.920 --> 00:40:21.000
in La Times in a small article. So it's a verifiable incident and many

442
00:40:21.199 --> 00:40:28.280
witnesses even today. But as David
Marler said to me, we must go

443
00:40:28.360 --> 00:40:34.400
to these witnesses because you know,
we don't get these testimonies, they'll be

444
00:40:34.840 --> 00:40:37.880
dying pretty soon because they are,
you know, already in old age.

445
00:40:40.119 --> 00:40:50.159
So it's very important to get all
these documentations. Yeah. So talking about

446
00:40:50.159 --> 00:40:53.840
a little bit about you for people
who aren't aware, like, how long

447
00:40:53.920 --> 00:40:58.039
have you been studying this field?
For a long time? Right, oh,

448
00:40:58.119 --> 00:41:01.079
yes, for a long time,
Alejandro. I started actually nineteen sixty

449
00:41:01.159 --> 00:41:07.719
one, wow, and I was
just you know, just a great school

450
00:41:08.679 --> 00:41:15.920
seventh or eighth grade student, and
so that was in nineteen sixty one.

451
00:41:15.559 --> 00:41:22.599
Then I went to high school and
then I started subscribing to some newsletters from

452
00:41:22.639 --> 00:41:29.719
APRO and Nightcap, you know,
National Investigations Committee on aera phenomena. It

453
00:41:29.800 --> 00:41:37.440
wasn't DC, and so I became
interested. But really what really catapulted me

454
00:41:37.519 --> 00:41:44.840
to uphology is the incident that happened
on April twenty fourth of nineteen sixty four

455
00:41:45.400 --> 00:41:49.480
in a small town of Sokoro,
as I mentioned in New Mexico, very

456
00:41:49.559 --> 00:41:55.559
famous Lonnie Samora SoCoRo incident of nineteen
sixty four. And I heard about that

457
00:41:55.719 --> 00:42:01.320
incident strangely in Japan when I was
living there. I grew up there in

458
00:42:01.400 --> 00:42:09.079
Japan, and I was in a
you know, it's in a college over

459
00:42:09.119 --> 00:42:15.159
there, when one day I opened
up the English newspaper, Japanese English you

460
00:42:15.199 --> 00:42:20.519
know edition uh, and on the
third page there was an article saying that

461
00:42:22.400 --> 00:42:30.320
policeman sees saucer sitting on sand.
That was the title, and it was

462
00:42:30.519 --> 00:42:36.480
from a small town called Sokoro,
which I had never heard before, uh.

463
00:42:36.519 --> 00:42:44.280
And it said that the patrol officer
witnessed this strange oval shaped object land

464
00:42:44.639 --> 00:42:49.599
landing or actually it was already landed, you know, in the desert,

465
00:42:50.679 --> 00:42:55.880
and he stopped chasing a high speed
chasing car and he went to the desert

466
00:42:55.920 --> 00:43:00.920
because he found he listened to this
explosion in the desert and when he went

467
00:43:00.960 --> 00:43:07.960
to the desert area, he saw
this silver oval shaped object with insignia and

468
00:43:08.000 --> 00:43:13.880
with tripod just sitting there about three
hundred and fifty feet you know, away

469
00:43:13.880 --> 00:43:21.360
from him. And this was a
very very well documented incident of April nineteen

470
00:43:21.440 --> 00:43:27.280
sixty four. Exact day was April
twenty fourth, and it was investigated immediately

471
00:43:27.920 --> 00:43:36.400
by people like Alan J Allen Heinek
and others, and they claimed that this

472
00:43:36.559 --> 00:43:45.400
is an authentic incident, verified and
you know, approved by the Air Force

473
00:43:45.599 --> 00:43:52.079
as authentic. And so what's interesting
thing about this incident was, of course

474
00:43:52.840 --> 00:44:00.559
the Lonnie Zamora's you know, testimony
of testimony of seeing this insignia on the

475
00:44:00.639 --> 00:44:09.119
object, oval shaped object and two
entities dressed in some kind of white coveralls.

476
00:44:09.880 --> 00:44:15.880
And what's more interesting is that Lonie
Samora ever described them as out of

477
00:44:15.960 --> 00:44:21.199
the ordinary. He just described him
as normal looking. Yeah, he never

478
00:44:21.239 --> 00:44:24.760
said they were aliens or anything like
that. He said they were just normal

479
00:44:24.800 --> 00:44:30.519
looking, except they were small in
stature, but wearing white coveralls. And

480
00:44:30.559 --> 00:44:37.360
so this is just a fascinating thing
that still remains as one of the most

481
00:44:37.360 --> 00:44:44.039
credible incidents. I think Hector Kintania, who is a real skeptic. The

482
00:44:44.119 --> 00:44:47.280
head of Blue Book at the time
said this was the one case I think,

483
00:44:47.360 --> 00:44:54.119
didn't he say that he felt had
some merit exactly exactly, And so

484
00:44:54.400 --> 00:45:00.639
most of the at that time Blue
people and you know, the Air Force,

485
00:45:01.400 --> 00:45:06.480
they came, you know, I
would say about fifteen to twenty personnel

486
00:45:06.559 --> 00:45:12.719
came. That's related to the investigation
in the put an official stamp approving that

487
00:45:12.760 --> 00:45:17.119
this was an authentic incident, and
so, you know, but one thing

488
00:45:17.199 --> 00:45:22.920
interesting is that on April twenty four, nineteen sixty four, there is also

489
00:45:23.199 --> 00:45:29.400
a rumor, this is not verified, but at Holoman Air Force Base,

490
00:45:29.519 --> 00:45:32.880
which is south of White Sands and
Missile Range, you know, about two

491
00:45:32.960 --> 00:45:38.079
hundred miles south of socorl there was
supposed to have been some kind of a

492
00:45:38.199 --> 00:45:44.239
landing of an object in the Holloman
Air Force Base on the very same day,

493
00:45:44.400 --> 00:45:47.960
April twenty four, nineteen sixty four. But you know, this is

494
00:45:49.000 --> 00:45:53.360
not really fully documented, but you
know, it's I don't know if it's

495
00:45:53.400 --> 00:45:58.119
a coincidence or not, but it's
interesting to say the least. Yeah,

496
00:45:58.239 --> 00:46:02.199
I think that I know, has
said Richard Dodie, who you know worked

497
00:46:02.199 --> 00:46:07.199
for Air Force and had thought the
crazy stories. Uh said that there's Amora

498
00:46:07.360 --> 00:46:12.679
Ufo had landed in the wrong spot. They got their directions off and they

499
00:46:12.679 --> 00:46:15.719
were supposed to land in Holloman.
I know that's one of his stories.

500
00:46:15.719 --> 00:46:21.639
And they got they got their directions
mixed up or something. Well, that

501
00:46:21.960 --> 00:46:27.559
is uh, as I said,
there's so many strange stories coming. I've

502
00:46:27.760 --> 00:46:32.880
heard the recent story and and it
looked pretty credible about the insignia on the

503
00:46:32.920 --> 00:46:38.880
side of the craft where the one
that was released early on was not the

504
00:46:38.960 --> 00:46:45.320
correct one. And the reason was
is they wanted anybody who said they saw

505
00:46:45.360 --> 00:46:49.239
the UFO, they wanted to ask
them, well, what does insignia look

506
00:46:49.320 --> 00:46:52.599
like to check if they got the
right one or not? Very interesting.

507
00:46:52.840 --> 00:46:57.639
Yes, you know, there could
be a lot of interpretations of that.

508
00:46:58.159 --> 00:47:05.559
Yeah, uh insignia. And so
the question is did he see something extraterrestrial

509
00:47:05.960 --> 00:47:08.920
or did he see something that was
made by the government, And that's the

510
00:47:08.960 --> 00:47:14.599
big question. Yeah, she will
remain even today, and it seems to

511
00:47:14.599 --> 00:47:19.639
be a big question, kind of
the main question that you tackle in your

512
00:47:19.719 --> 00:47:23.599
research. That's correct because I try
to have my two feat on the ground

513
00:47:23.840 --> 00:47:31.239
when it comes to UFOs, and
there's no question that the government has a

514
00:47:31.239 --> 00:47:38.199
lot of technologies that would surprise us. And you know, this is the

515
00:47:38.239 --> 00:47:49.559
reason why I respect researchers like the
late Gay Baldez who investigated a lot of

516
00:47:49.599 --> 00:47:55.320
cattle mitilations and the UFO signings in
Dulce in New Mexico in the mid seventies

517
00:47:55.320 --> 00:48:00.400
and eighties, and he came to
the conclusion that it's possible that the government

518
00:48:00.719 --> 00:48:09.920
may have experimented in remotely controlled platforms
that looked like lying saucers, and also

519
00:48:10.400 --> 00:48:16.480
may have used some kind of a
technology of some kind of a holographic projection

520
00:48:16.559 --> 00:48:22.159
technology to create some kind of a
UFO incident or a series of incidents in

521
00:48:22.199 --> 00:48:30.480
the Dulce area. So which is
very very fascinating to begin with, you

522
00:48:30.519 --> 00:48:35.199
know, because the Dulce area has
a very unique, strange history too,

523
00:48:35.239 --> 00:48:42.840
because it was only nineteen sixty seven
that the government exploded and a nuclear device

524
00:48:43.079 --> 00:48:49.159
underground just about twenty two miles southwest
of Dulse on December tenth, nineteen sixty

525
00:48:49.199 --> 00:48:53.079
seven, and it was called Project
Gas Buggy, and the idea of US

526
00:48:53.119 --> 00:48:59.239
to east the flow of natural gas
trapped deep underground in that area, so

527
00:48:59.280 --> 00:49:07.559
they were benefit that area, you
know, but it seems like radiation leaked

528
00:49:07.599 --> 00:49:13.519
out little by little, little by
little and may have affected some animals and

529
00:49:13.559 --> 00:49:21.840
even humans in that area. So
game less beliefs believed that the government may

530
00:49:21.960 --> 00:49:30.280
have clandestinedly monitored radiation levels of some
of these cows in particular that were affected.

531
00:49:30.559 --> 00:49:37.719
So it's a very interesting theory that
the government may have created or staged

532
00:49:37.800 --> 00:49:44.920
some kind of alien related scenario by
use of technologies. And you know,

533
00:49:45.039 --> 00:49:49.519
actually gave bout this. One of
the was one of the first persons that

534
00:49:49.679 --> 00:49:55.719
said that possibly Sandy laboratories and by
late nineteen seventy may have had some kind

535
00:49:55.719 --> 00:50:05.760
of prototype of UAV or unmanned area
vehicles that resemble like flying sauces. Yeah,

536
00:50:05.840 --> 00:50:09.559
I found it so really interesting when
I talked to him, that he

537
00:50:09.679 --> 00:50:15.760
works with so many paranormal researchers,
you know, cattle mutilation researchers, ufologists,

538
00:50:15.920 --> 00:50:21.960
and its friendly with everyone. But
he was pretty he was pretty certain

539
00:50:22.039 --> 00:50:27.360
that that there are no extraterrestrials of
itting visiting this planet, that it is

540
00:50:27.440 --> 00:50:34.280
all man made. And it's interesting
coming from someone in law enforcement who lived

541
00:50:34.280 --> 00:50:37.960
in that area. I think you
can argue, and I think Chris O'Brien

542
00:50:37.000 --> 00:50:44.000
makes this argument that that's where the
most cattle mutilations have happened, and he's

543
00:50:44.119 --> 00:50:46.480
been close to it, so it's
interesting he should say that and feel that

544
00:50:46.519 --> 00:50:50.880
way. That's correct. But of
course, on the other hand, there

545
00:50:50.920 --> 00:50:57.280
are many other incidences throughout the world, such as in South America in Argentina

546
00:50:57.440 --> 00:51:01.440
that had a lot of cattle middulations
that are unexplained. So you know,

547
00:51:01.519 --> 00:51:07.960
it's still unresolved basically. But one
thing I can say, Alejandro is that

548
00:51:08.199 --> 00:51:15.840
New Mexico is very important in the
sense that many German scientists and engineers came

549
00:51:15.920 --> 00:51:22.639
here to New Mexico right after World
War Two because the United States government brought

550
00:51:22.719 --> 00:51:31.519
them from Germany to give us some
of their so called black technologies that they

551
00:51:31.840 --> 00:51:36.400
used to develop in the nineteen thirties
and nineteen forties, and such as the

552
00:51:36.480 --> 00:51:42.760
flying wing aircraft and then of course
rocketry and all other stuff. So you

553
00:51:42.800 --> 00:51:49.199
know, it's very interesting that the
German scientists, through the Operation paper Clip,

554
00:51:50.039 --> 00:51:58.039
became a very essential part of the
development of America's black budget programs,

555
00:51:58.079 --> 00:52:02.800
including you know, not only the
weapon systems, but other researchers. For

556
00:52:02.840 --> 00:52:10.239
example, many of the German scientists
were sent to Los Alamos National Laboratories to

557
00:52:10.280 --> 00:52:16.360
conduct research on genetics, and someone
and then other scientists went south to White

558
00:52:16.400 --> 00:52:23.280
Sands to begin testing rockets and then
also other prototypes of some kind of aircraft,

559
00:52:24.360 --> 00:52:30.239
probably applying wing aircraft and others.
So it's very significant the German presence

560
00:52:31.440 --> 00:52:36.440
after World War Two in New Mexico. Yeah. So, and I know

561
00:52:37.039 --> 00:52:39.639
at your conference Michael Shadull be talking
a lot about those craft, and of

562
00:52:39.679 --> 00:52:45.960
course Greg Valdez about Dulse. But
you know, you being a more conservative

563
00:52:46.599 --> 00:52:52.199
there skeptical investigator, you do have
you know, David Marler and Travis Walton.

564
00:52:52.599 --> 00:52:57.599
David Marler, who I think is
a great, very careful investigator,

565
00:52:57.920 --> 00:53:01.239
and what do you think of his
findings. He has found that the triangular

566
00:53:01.320 --> 00:53:06.519
UFO signings go back into the past
further than I think anybody had realized,

567
00:53:06.559 --> 00:53:12.599
certainly further than I had realized,
and that you know, the human answer

568
00:53:12.679 --> 00:53:17.039
to that question, at least to
completely answer that question is you know,

569
00:53:17.119 --> 00:53:22.039
in his mind, because they go
back harder to explain, you know,

570
00:53:22.119 --> 00:53:25.920
all of those sightings. That's right. A lot of people have the notion

571
00:53:27.079 --> 00:53:34.519
that the triangular UFOs started, you
know, being reported in the late seventies

572
00:53:34.559 --> 00:53:37.400
and so on, but according to
his research, yeah, it goes as

573
00:53:37.760 --> 00:53:45.719
old as the late eighteen hundreds and
maybe even earlier. So this is one

574
00:53:46.800 --> 00:53:53.519
subject that is perplexing, and it
even goes even to this day. So

575
00:53:53.920 --> 00:54:00.559
I think he's a very unique person
that concentrated on specifically on triangular uphos,

576
00:54:00.599 --> 00:54:07.159
and of course triangular UFOs varies so
much in size. You know, it

577
00:54:07.199 --> 00:54:14.880
goes from smaller ones to extremely humongous
ones like three times the size of football

578
00:54:14.960 --> 00:54:23.519
field, which is very very difficult
for us to comprehend. How an other

579
00:54:27.000 --> 00:54:32.000
that four times the size of football
field can actually hover or just go very

580
00:54:32.000 --> 00:54:39.239
slowly without dropping. And so you
know, according to our present knowledge of

581
00:54:39.960 --> 00:54:47.559
propulsion systems, most scientists and engineers
would say that an impossibility. So on

582
00:54:47.599 --> 00:54:52.880
the other hand, you know,
the reports come quite often, so we

583
00:54:53.000 --> 00:54:58.079
have to take a good look and
not come to any conclusions. But you

584
00:54:58.119 --> 00:55:06.199
know, this is something that we
must deal with, something that we cannot

585
00:55:06.679 --> 00:55:10.599
hastily come to any conclusion. So
I want to ask you another question.

586
00:55:10.679 --> 00:55:15.039
Something I asked him and I thought
his answer was interesting, and it was

587
00:55:16.840 --> 00:55:22.119
and I think it sounds right on
the idea what are your ideas behind the

588
00:55:22.239 --> 00:55:28.800
existence of the t R three B. Well, actually, uh, this

589
00:55:29.119 --> 00:55:35.079
idea of TR three B, to
me, it has been misdirected. In

590
00:55:35.119 --> 00:55:45.400
other words, this idea basically started
with mister Edward hush or whush. And

591
00:55:45.320 --> 00:55:53.440
but actually the most credible information is
really not TR three B but TR three

592
00:55:53.679 --> 00:56:06.519
A, which the Aviation Weekend Space
like now mentioned that in the nineteen nineties.

593
00:56:06.719 --> 00:56:13.000
And yes, t R three A
is considered to be more credible information

594
00:56:13.320 --> 00:56:16.920
rather than the TR three B,
right, because yeah, that's my opinion,

595
00:56:17.039 --> 00:56:23.320
And there's no real mention of THR
three B anywhere that I know of

596
00:56:23.519 --> 00:56:30.039
in the UH documentations of the Air
Force and other you know, aviation military

597
00:56:30.079 --> 00:56:38.239
aviation publications. Tr you know three
A. I totally agree with you.

598
00:56:38.320 --> 00:56:43.800
And you know, the t R
three A, while kind of a stealth

599
00:56:43.880 --> 00:56:47.960
plane, a flying wing triangular craft, was nothing to abnormal. I think

600
00:56:49.000 --> 00:56:54.280
it was a proof of technology kind
of craft. But it, you know,

601
00:56:54.400 --> 00:57:00.320
nothing like what people describe as is
TR three B, which yeah,

602
00:57:00.360 --> 00:57:04.039
you know, when Marler looked into
it, he didn't find much evidence either.

603
00:57:04.239 --> 00:57:07.360
He found exactly what you just kind
of outlined. And when I've looked

604
00:57:07.400 --> 00:57:10.440
into it, I've found the same. So it's an interesting mythology, this

605
00:57:10.599 --> 00:57:17.760
TR three B that started up exactly. And you know, it's the kind

606
00:57:17.840 --> 00:57:25.960
of very strange looking because most artists
rendition of TR three B A two R

607
00:57:27.039 --> 00:57:31.119
three B described the object as a
very thick you know, it's very thick,

608
00:57:31.840 --> 00:57:38.079
too thick, and it has three
lights supposedly on each end of the

609
00:57:38.079 --> 00:57:49.599
triangle the angles, and of course
it resembles the photograph of the Belgium UFO

610
00:57:49.639 --> 00:57:55.599
sightings of the nineteen nineties. But
you know, the honest opinion of mine

611
00:57:55.880 --> 00:58:02.760
is that so far we have not
seen in any single credible, a documented

612
00:58:04.199 --> 00:58:09.719
photo of any triangular UFOs. And
that's that's a very strange thing to me

613
00:58:10.519 --> 00:58:19.760
that even the Belgium famous photo of
the triangular UFO or craft that was taken

614
00:58:19.840 --> 00:58:27.119
by a person in Belgium was proven
to be a hoax, right sadly,

615
00:58:28.400 --> 00:58:34.039
so that was a big disappointment,
disappointment to me. And so this,

616
00:58:34.480 --> 00:58:43.039
despite the lots of reports of the
nineteen ninety wave of triangular objects in Belgium,

617
00:58:43.599 --> 00:58:51.360
we still haven't come up with any
definitive, credible, fully documented photograph.

618
00:58:52.360 --> 00:58:57.000
And that's the one thing that is
still mysterious to me. Speaking of

619
00:58:57.119 --> 00:59:01.000
mysterious, I want to get your
your feeling. Obviously, I think you

620
00:59:01.079 --> 00:59:06.639
must feel that the Walton case is
a credible one. But being a more

621
00:59:06.679 --> 00:59:13.559
skeptical or researcher and I feel similar, at least for me. I guess

622
00:59:13.559 --> 00:59:17.360
I could share how I feel and
see if you feel similarly. Is that

623
00:59:17.800 --> 00:59:21.599
I really? You know, I've
become friend with Travis. He's out here

624
00:59:21.599 --> 00:59:25.400
in Arizona. I see him often, we hang out when we're at conferences

625
00:59:25.440 --> 00:59:31.920
and stuff, and I've never seen
him falter in the story. It seems

626
00:59:31.960 --> 00:59:37.599
so credible, I really. To
me, for me, nothing is one

627
00:59:37.639 --> 00:59:43.039
hundred percent, absolutely nothing. But
he's right up there too. You know.

628
00:59:45.400 --> 00:59:50.639
I really believe the story and his
experiences. And to say that means

629
00:59:50.679 --> 00:59:55.519
that you believe some really wild stuff. So how does it make you feel?

630
00:59:57.239 --> 01:00:01.639
Well? As I said many times
in the past, we still don't

631
01:00:01.679 --> 01:00:08.000
know really if the image that we
see or experience is real or not.

632
01:00:09.280 --> 01:00:16.039
Because I have found out that the
military has been working for many years,

633
01:00:16.039 --> 01:00:22.079
at least thirty years, especially the
Naval research laboratories and so on. They

634
01:00:22.079 --> 01:00:34.880
have experimented for many years in psychological
operations and also in inducing a picture or

635
01:00:34.960 --> 01:00:45.760
experience to an observer, including the
experience of some kind of abduction cases.

636
01:00:45.079 --> 01:00:52.760
And this is a fact because even
doctor Jacques Ballet mentioned that in nineteen seventy

637
01:00:52.760 --> 01:01:00.800
five, the US Naval Research Laboratory
did some experiments in Brazilian jungles involving indigenous

638
01:01:00.079 --> 01:01:07.039
people over there in the Amazon area, and the US government the Research Laboratory

639
01:01:07.119 --> 01:01:14.960
actually used different kinds of helicopters and
different kinds of equipment for mind control and

640
01:01:15.239 --> 01:01:22.800
did some experience experiments with the the
indigenous people in the jungle and created a

641
01:01:22.880 --> 01:01:31.440
scenario way by they these indigenous people
were absolutely convinced that they were taken in

642
01:01:31.440 --> 01:01:37.320
inside some kind of a space vehicle
and was examined and then released. And

643
01:01:37.880 --> 01:01:44.119
so this is what I mean that, you know, uh, the experience

644
01:01:44.320 --> 01:01:54.480
that people, uh the abductee claim
could be real, but whether that reality

645
01:01:55.320 --> 01:02:02.159
was induced or created by an outside
force for some kind of a reason,

646
01:02:02.960 --> 01:02:08.400
it's very interesting. And that's why
in this conference, a New Mexico UFO

647
01:02:08.440 --> 01:02:14.840
conference, most of the speakers,
like myself, Michael said, Greg Baldess,

648
01:02:14.880 --> 01:02:21.039
and David Marler accept that it's possible
that many of these UFOs are man

649
01:02:21.079 --> 01:02:25.599
made technologies. But on the other
hand, we invited Travis Walton because he

650
01:02:25.719 --> 01:02:30.159
is very unique. He is one
of the most credible people as far as

651
01:02:30.159 --> 01:02:35.559
the abduction account is concerned, and
he has never changed his story for many

652
01:02:35.559 --> 01:02:39.679
many years. As you said,
So we're talking about a real incident that

653
01:02:40.000 --> 01:02:46.400
is reality to him. But the
big question is what is that reality?

654
01:02:46.960 --> 01:02:52.639
Is that the same reality as we
understand, or it was some kind of

655
01:02:52.840 --> 01:02:57.400
induced reality, you know, well, be getting to that. That's what's

656
01:02:57.679 --> 01:03:04.320
great about his case. Also is
that there are other witnesses, So would

657
01:03:04.639 --> 01:03:09.760
you infer them that they were induced
as well, or perhaps he was taken

658
01:03:10.760 --> 01:03:17.320
and then then the the inducing happened. Well, it's it's it's a it's

659
01:03:17.360 --> 01:03:21.440
a big question, yes, you
As you said, this case is unique

660
01:03:21.519 --> 01:03:29.960
because it was uh reportedly uh witnessed
by his uh you know, woodcutting colleagues,

661
01:03:30.920 --> 01:03:37.280
and so that's what makes this case
a very fascinating case. So we

662
01:03:37.320 --> 01:03:46.320
still don't know what really happened,
and that's why we must continue to find

663
01:03:46.320 --> 01:03:52.239
out more about these type of things, you know. But the abduction itself

664
01:03:52.920 --> 01:04:00.400
is definitely to me a personal incident, a personal experience, and not you

665
01:04:00.440 --> 01:04:06.239
know, multiple personal experience, but
in this case, they were this incident

666
01:04:06.480 --> 01:04:16.400
was witnessed by the other woodcutters.
So that's very interesting. Whether we have

667
01:04:16.440 --> 01:04:24.880
a technology now to create this kind
of a thing, you know, for

668
01:04:25.000 --> 01:04:29.320
some kind of a psychological experiment,
we don't know yet. Yeah, yeah,

669
01:04:29.360 --> 01:04:32.960
you know what, it'd be great
if you could come to our UFO

670
01:04:33.079 --> 01:04:36.039
Congress this year because we're going to
have a couple of guys part of the

671
01:04:36.119 --> 01:04:43.639
Alligash abduction case from the seventies.
And really, I think this case ranks

672
01:04:44.320 --> 01:04:47.639
up there with with Travis's because one
of the great things about Travis is meeting

673
01:04:47.719 --> 01:04:51.079
him. He's so down to earth, you know, he's such a level

674
01:04:51.119 --> 01:04:55.119
headed guy. You get to talk
to him about stuff, and so are

675
01:04:55.159 --> 01:04:59.760
these Alligash guys or just you know, stall of the earth regular guys.

676
01:05:00.119 --> 01:05:03.519
And that's what's always cool because sometimes
you meet some of these people and they

677
01:05:03.599 --> 01:05:08.280
are lecturers, they're performers, you
know, they're out up there doing their

678
01:05:08.360 --> 01:05:11.360
thing, and you don't get the
sense that they're just kind of a regular,

679
01:05:11.440 --> 01:05:16.320
down to earth's a guy like you
do with Travis. And so that's

680
01:05:16.360 --> 01:05:20.599
one great thing about Travis. And
I'm really excited about having the allegash guys

681
01:05:20.639 --> 01:05:24.519
at our conference too. I don't
know if you've met them. No,

682
01:05:24.559 --> 01:05:28.679
I haven't met them, but definitely
interested. But regardless, you know,

683
01:05:28.719 --> 01:05:34.039
we're talking about this phenomena which is
still remains in the mystery. Yeah.

684
01:05:34.239 --> 01:05:41.679
So on the other hand, yes, we may have technologies to assimilate some

685
01:05:41.760 --> 01:05:45.719
of these incidents, but on the
other hand, there are so many cases

686
01:05:45.760 --> 01:05:50.280
where we have no answers. You
see. That's why this whole UFO phenomena

687
01:05:50.360 --> 01:05:58.320
continues to occupy one of the mysteries
of this world. And that's what's great.

688
01:05:58.360 --> 01:06:01.440
And I do love you know,
and I know some people get frustrated,

689
01:06:01.519 --> 01:06:10.119
but you know when a more mundane
conclusion is offered or possibility is offered,

690
01:06:10.199 --> 01:06:14.599
and I've certainly seen on your website
or on your Facebook where people have

691
01:06:14.639 --> 01:06:17.800
gotten frustrated with you, how do
you deal with that? Well, I

692
01:06:18.000 --> 01:06:21.639
just deal with that, as you
know, I'm used to it because,

693
01:06:23.280 --> 01:06:27.800
as I said, I am not
a debunker of anything, because who am

694
01:06:27.800 --> 01:06:32.360
I to debunk anything? You know, because these things, this phenomenon is

695
01:06:33.039 --> 01:06:36.119
real. It is real, except
that we don't know what they are.

696
01:06:36.320 --> 01:06:42.840
You know, we have no definitive
proof that they are physical extraterrescual entities with

697
01:06:42.960 --> 01:06:50.000
physical extraterrestrial craft, or they may
not possibly be just physical or maybe not

698
01:06:50.119 --> 01:06:56.079
physical at all, because as doctor
Jacques Well he said many years ago,

699
01:06:56.920 --> 01:07:03.599
the UFOs may not actually be flying, no are they possibly objects. So

700
01:07:03.880 --> 01:07:09.280
it's very interesting and that's why we
continue to have this topic because this is

701
01:07:09.320 --> 01:07:14.280
one of the most important topics that
you can ever think of. And that's

702
01:07:14.280 --> 01:07:20.079
why I'm so glad to have this
new Mexico UFO conference and my hats off

703
01:07:20.159 --> 01:07:26.840
to the Mayor of Rio Rancho.
The Mayor of Rio Rancho declared October fourth

704
01:07:27.199 --> 01:07:33.880
as the official UFO research Day.
Oh awesome. Yeah, it's going to

705
01:07:33.880 --> 01:07:40.320
be in the newspaper on Sunday.
I believe because he has the guts to

706
01:07:40.519 --> 01:07:45.840
claim and he's the mayor that this
is going to be an important day.

707
01:07:45.960 --> 01:07:49.840
And he didn't mention anything about aliens
or nothing. He just said that this

708
01:07:50.000 --> 01:07:56.960
is a UFO research day. That
means it's a very serious thing. That

709
01:07:57.119 --> 01:08:00.320
is so cool, that is really
really cool. I know, you have

710
01:08:00.400 --> 01:08:05.880
to run. Thank you for coming
on the show. People can know more

711
01:08:05.920 --> 01:08:12.480
about the conference. They can go
to NMUFO conference dot com to find out

712
01:08:12.519 --> 01:08:16.720
more. Of course, you can
also look for Norio o Hayakawa on Facebook

713
01:08:17.159 --> 01:08:20.479
and what I just want to say, you know, I love your stuff,

714
01:08:20.520 --> 01:08:25.319
I love following you on Facebook,
and I love your your grounded approach

715
01:08:25.399 --> 01:08:30.079
to things. So thanks again for
being on the show, and I wish

716
01:08:30.119 --> 01:08:32.000
I could make the conference. And
really, people, you got to get

717
01:08:32.000 --> 01:08:36.119
out there. It's only twenty bucks, that's right, and one of these

718
01:08:36.520 --> 01:08:43.520
days I will attend you a conference. Okay in February. You got it

719
01:08:43.640 --> 01:08:49.079
so much for your work, oh
my pleasure. Absolutely thanks for following it,

720
01:08:50.479 --> 01:08:56.439
Okay, thank you, thank you
so much for joining us. Norio

721
01:08:56.720 --> 01:09:00.600
has some really interesting stuff and you've
got to go to his Facebook and check

722
01:09:00.600 --> 01:09:04.359
out his news. He always comes
up with some really interesting stuff. So

723
01:09:04.680 --> 01:09:10.119
you can go look for Noreo Hayakawa. And of course if you go to

724
01:09:10.159 --> 01:09:15.279
my Facebook Alejandro Rojas, you will
find he is one of my friends if

725
01:09:15.319 --> 01:09:18.439
you're looking for it. Sometimes it
gets hard to find people, but there's

726
01:09:18.439 --> 01:09:23.439
probably not too many Norio Hayakaways,
so it probably won't be too difficult to

727
01:09:23.439 --> 01:09:26.159
find him, so check that out. And if you want to read more

728
01:09:26.199 --> 01:09:30.920
about his conference, it's nm UFO
Conference dot com If you're in the New

729
01:09:30.960 --> 01:09:33.800
Mexico area, you got to check
it out. I would be there,

730
01:09:33.840 --> 01:09:40.920
but I'm going to go camping with
the Phoenix Arizona move on this weekend,

731
01:09:40.960 --> 01:09:44.159
so I had prior engagements to r
I'd be driving to Albuquerque. I love

732
01:09:44.199 --> 01:09:48.600
Albuquerque anyway to go check out this
conference, So go check it out people.

733
01:09:50.199 --> 01:09:54.279
Also, I want to mention a
couple of things before I let you

734
01:09:54.520 --> 01:09:57.199
go. First of all, I
haven't mentioned this in a while, but

735
01:09:57.600 --> 01:10:00.760
it keeps growing. We have this
really cool UFO video portal. If you

736
01:10:00.840 --> 01:10:05.319
go to open mindsat TV, you'll
see a link video portal. You'll also

737
01:10:05.520 --> 01:10:10.840
see a graphic in the upper right. And what we're doing is posting all

738
01:10:10.880 --> 01:10:15.119
of the lectures and some other things, but mostly the lectures from the International

739
01:10:15.239 --> 01:10:19.560
UFO congresses in the past. And
some of these talks are incredible. So

740
01:10:20.039 --> 01:10:27.640
we have like Ajjvard from Brazil.
We have Antonio Juneus talking about UFOs of

741
01:10:27.800 --> 01:10:33.439
the twenty first century. We have
Carol Rozen who used to work for Werner

742
01:10:33.600 --> 01:10:40.640
von Braun, the rocket scientist,
Francis Barwood who was on a city council

743
01:10:40.680 --> 01:10:45.279
in Phoenix during the Phoenix Lights,
and investigated the Phoenix Lights, so a

744
01:10:45.279 --> 01:10:47.600
lot of really cool stuff and plus
some of the regulars that you've heard about,

745
01:10:47.640 --> 01:10:53.000
Jim Mars. We also have Lloyd
Pie talking about the Star Child's skull

746
01:10:53.560 --> 01:10:57.159
and unfortunately he passed away in the
last year, so you'll be able to

747
01:10:57.199 --> 01:11:00.600
see more about that. So we
have lots of videos and we have more

748
01:11:00.680 --> 01:11:03.520
going up every month. It's only
like six bucks a month to join,

749
01:11:04.000 --> 01:11:08.359
and you can have access to all
the videos you want, watch them all

750
01:11:08.399 --> 01:11:12.880
the time, over and over again, and you have more videos popping up

751
01:11:12.880 --> 01:11:16.279
all the time, or you can
watch them each for a smaller amount or

752
01:11:16.279 --> 01:11:19.720
for just a couple bucks. But
yeah, really cool. You got to

753
01:11:19.800 --> 01:11:25.560
check out the video portal, and
of course check out Spacing Out. We

754
01:11:25.600 --> 01:11:30.239
had a new episode on Friday where
we talked about in depth about some of

755
01:11:30.279 --> 01:11:33.800
this news we talked about here,
but we talked about more than just this,

756
01:11:34.000 --> 01:11:41.119
and Jason of course has his piece
on there or he talked about he's

757
01:11:41.640 --> 01:11:46.239
debunking UFO sidings largely lately, but
in a very interesting way and it's good

758
01:11:46.279 --> 01:11:51.800
to know when there's hoaxes and stuff. But he does a really cool piece

759
01:11:51.840 --> 01:11:57.079
on Spacing Out, So check that
out on our YouTube channel, but you

760
01:11:57.119 --> 01:12:01.000
can also see it on Openminds dot
tv, and then of course you want

761
01:12:01.039 --> 01:12:06.680
to register for the UFO Congress.
We're so excited. I think I mentioned

762
01:12:06.720 --> 01:12:09.960
it, well, I talked to
an Orio about it, but I'm just

763
01:12:10.039 --> 01:12:14.880
so excited about the Alligash guys.
I know a lot of you like Travis

764
01:12:14.920 --> 01:12:17.520
Walton, and so do I.
Travis Walton's awesome. Oh yeah, And

765
01:12:17.560 --> 01:12:24.439
I talked about Travis Walton's Skyfire conference
coming up in early November. We're going

766
01:12:24.520 --> 01:12:31.520
to go out to a SkyWatch at
the location where Travis was taken, and

767
01:12:31.840 --> 01:12:34.479
so that's gonna be a lot of
fun, and we're gonna interview some of

768
01:12:34.520 --> 01:12:36.960
the witnesses. We'll have a video
up but you can go to that if

769
01:12:36.960 --> 01:12:44.319
you want. Go look up Skyfire
Conference. But the reason I'm mentioning Travis

770
01:12:44.359 --> 01:12:48.439
Walton's case is because it's an incredible
case with multiple witnesses and meeting Travis,

771
01:12:48.479 --> 01:12:54.199
he's such a down to earth guy. Well, these Allagash guys in the

772
01:12:54.239 --> 01:13:00.439
seventies had a similar experience where they
were all taken. They were all win

773
01:13:00.560 --> 01:13:08.279
under hypnotic regression separately, but remember
similar things. The creatures look similar amazing

774
01:13:08.399 --> 01:13:12.880
case and when you meet these guys, they are so cool and so down

775
01:13:12.920 --> 01:13:15.800
to earth, your regular joes,
and they're going to be at the UFO

776
01:13:15.880 --> 01:13:20.479
Congress this year. And I'm just
really excited about this because this case is

777
01:13:20.560 --> 01:13:25.560
just so incredible and not a lot
of people know about the Aligash case this

778
01:13:25.680 --> 01:13:28.840
year, and I think it's as
big of a deal as a Travis Walton

779
01:13:28.920 --> 01:13:31.439
case. And it's great when you
can actually talk to the witnesses, so

780
01:13:32.039 --> 01:13:36.359
really cool case, and we're going
to have them there among other really cool,

781
01:13:36.479 --> 01:13:41.600
incredible speakers that you've got to check
out. So February eighteenth to the

782
01:13:41.640 --> 01:13:45.560
twenty second, go register for that. And as always I like to tell

783
01:13:45.600 --> 01:13:51.159
people go reserve your rooms now,
because they go really quick at the host

784
01:13:51.199 --> 01:13:55.640
Hotel. But luckily, if you
don't get at the host Hotel, there's

785
01:13:55.640 --> 01:13:59.600
a couple nearby ones and last year
they all sold out, and I'm sure

786
01:13:59.600 --> 01:14:02.960
they will this year too because we're
getting a lot of registrations, so join

787
01:14:03.239 --> 01:14:09.279
in the fun. It should be
awesome and soon here we're probably gonna have,

788
01:14:10.000 --> 01:14:13.760
you know, some other announcements of
some other really cool speakers as we

789
01:14:14.039 --> 01:14:19.279
finalize our list of speakers here,
so I hope you join us. Thank

790
01:14:19.319 --> 01:14:25.439
you so much for listening and being
here. Again. I want to thank

791
01:14:25.520 --> 01:14:29.399
Caleb Hanks, who does our opening
and close music. You can find his

792
01:14:29.520 --> 01:14:34.319
music at UFO or I always say
UFO, but it's supposed to be the

793
01:14:34.479 --> 01:14:40.279
clerk Chronicles dot com. He does
some great music. So thank you to

794
01:14:40.520 --> 01:14:44.439
Caleb, and of course thank you
all for being here a week after a

795
01:14:44.479 --> 01:14:47.000
week. We really love it that
you join us, and we're so happy

796
01:14:47.039 --> 01:14:50.640
to hear from you when you tell
us that you like the show. We

797
01:14:50.680 --> 01:14:55.279
work really hard to bring you some
really cool stuff, and we have cool

798
01:14:55.319 --> 01:14:59.640
stuff coming up. We're gonna have
some regarding Rendel Shim. We're gonna talk

799
01:14:59.680 --> 01:15:03.600
to some when next week you haven't
heard from nor has anybody, so we're

800
01:15:03.640 --> 01:15:09.119
gonna have something unique and really kind
of a really it is an open minds

801
01:15:09.279 --> 01:15:15.119
UFO Radio exclusive regarding Rendolship for us
next week, so you're gonna want to

802
01:15:15.239 --> 01:15:18.199
check that out. So you all
have a wonderful week. We will talk

803
01:15:18.239 --> 01:16:11.039
to you then. Audios amos,
your motionless