Hello, and welcome to Open Mind UFO Radio. I am your host,
Alejandro Rojas, and I have with me the ever pleasant Jason McClellan. I'll
try to be extra pleasant today. Sometimes you you you know, have some
snarky remarks to when I kind of tease you and stuff, and I think
people don't realize that always because I've had people say, oh, you guys
were fighting, and it's like, no, we weren't fighting. That Jason
is actually a very always, a very pleasant person. I'm very pleased to
hear that we actually fool people sometimes into thinking that we're having a nice fight.
In fact, I don't think i've ever heard you get mad, raise
your voice or get frustrated at someone. Hmm, well, I'll work harder.
I know you get frustrated with our boss sometimes, but when we're just
arguing, you know, different ideas about stuff. But I've never heard you
be like you sort of a bad No. I don't recall ever getting getting
upset at work. You know. That's that's the wonderful thing about absolutely loving
what we do. I mean, we're so for to be able to do
what we love and uh, you know, we're doing something extremely exciting so
even when we have conversations and disagreements or differing opinions with each other or people
in this field, it's still I don't know. To me, I don't
see any point in getting upset or angry at people. I just listen to
what they have to say and I say my piece and there we go.
Right. Yeah, although the one who gets probably the most like genuinely we
can give some behind the scenes and give them some information. She won't like
me probably saying this. It's Maureen. Huh, she gets a little more
fiery sometimes. Well, Maureen is fiery and she's a woman, and I
know that you don't. You don't mess with a woman. Very true,
very true. For any guys out there who are having woman problems, it's
probably because you are just fighting too much when you should just chill out and
be like, okay, you know, is it that bic of a deal?
Sit through? Watch you know, the Housewives of New Jersey or something.
Sometimes you just got to do it. The rule in retail is the
customer is always right, But the rule in life in general is the woman
is always right. Yep. That's the way it goes, all right,
Well, a little bit of advice, some romance advice from Jason and I
this morning before we get into the business. And the business is we have
an interview coming up, and this is one of my favorite people. I
think yours too, Jason Norio Hayakawa. Yes, love Norio. Yeah,
his name is so fun to say too, Hayakawa, such a cool name.
But Norio is really active on his Facebook site where he is posting stuff
all the time. He focuses on research into the alleged Dulce UFO based triangular
UFOs Area fifty one, that kind of stuff. Definitely very focused on New
Mexico. He's part of New Mexico Move On. I know he goes to
those meetings and I think he helps out with the Albuquerque chapter and he is
We've talked to him before about some of this stuff. But he's having a
conference this weekend called the New Mexico UFO Conference. It's just a day long,
you know, kind of a short gig. It's only twenty bucks.
He's having mostly well a few locals and a few not locals, so he's
having Michael Schratt, our buddy who used to work with us at Open Minds,
has gone on to other things, but still a great researcher. Actually
talked to him the other day, Jason, so he's alive and well.
But Norio's going to talk about New Mexico UFO culture. Well he's going to
tell us more about what everybody's going to talk about. But Greg Valdez,
Travis Walton, and David Marler some great stuff. So Mario and I are
going to talk about this conference and his research in just a little while,
so stay tuned for that. But before that, Jason and I are going
to talk about some UFOs in the news, So big Jay, UFOs in
the nude, in the nude, Oh you said news. Yeah, that's
still exciting. It's a little less exciting, but it's still exciting. Yeah.
It seems that when people portray UFOs a lot, especially the real evil
ones, they're attractive nude young women. And I'm talking about the movies people,
so don't get on me for you know, because you had the one
where like they were vampires. Remember that one with the naked girl walking around
like England. It was with the guy who plays Jean Luke Bicard. You
remember that. I don't know what shows you're watching there, buddy, No
it was a yeah, that was who plays Jean Luke Picard. No,
you know very well, Lejandro. I can't remember his name right now.
You can't either. Stuart Uh yeah, Patrick Stewart one of my favorite people.
But yeah, he's in this this movie. He's a cop like chasing
down this alien. But then you have the one was that Natasha Kinski is
at her name? And then you have this this latest one with Scarlett Johansson,
uh, where they just kind of used their feminine wiles and Megan Fox
was one and they killed the guys, so kind of a black widow kind
of thing. Movies don't lie, Alejandro. Aliens are sexy. So but
you're the one who brought up UFOs and nude nudes. I thought you said
UFO's in the nude. Yeah, but actually the news so out of this
last week, mister Jason, what are your top story or stories? Well,
I just want to mention something about the widely known about UFO sighting.
The Rendolsom Forest incident, heralded by some is perhaps the best UFO sighting ever.
Well now the Forestry Commission in the UK has decided to commemorate the incident
by putting a large metal sculpture depicting a UFO. This is pretty cool,
Alejandra. I like when these events are actually commemorated. We saw this what
was it last year in Australia with the west All incident, and a couple
of years ago there was a marker erected to commemorate the Betty Barney Hill incident.
So UFO tourism is actually a thing and some places, especially in the
UK or are trying to take advantage of it. But I do like that
they built this little replica of the ship that was allegedly seen in the forest
back in nineteen eighty. So I would like to go see this thing.
Yeah, me too. It's really cool and I'll talk about it more.
But I've talked a lot with John Burrows, one of the witnesses, and
he says it's not exactly in the right place, but it's pretty cool.
And it's actually a rendition off of what Jim Peniston says he saw, because
he said he actually walked up and touched this thing before it flew off.
So yeah, pretty cool. An artist did it, and she has What's
funny is I guess some of the markers from the trail because it's a trail,
and when you reach the end of the trail, you see this big
art piece on the side of it, and they look weird, but they're
not like supposed to be alien writing, even though they kind of look like
it. It's kind of just her artists rendition. But yeah, very cool.
And they seem very open to the idea. I mean, they're saying
they're not confirming it's alien, but they say we're open to it, and
lots of people believe that. And they seem themselves very open to the idea
that you know, this was a genuine mystery. Yeah, they were careful
to state that they're not taking a position with the incident. They're not saying
it was aliens, but they're definitely acknowledging that something happened. Pretty cool,
very cool. And this was the week of rendellshim because of course that's why
I was in contact with John Burrows. Because the next day or no the
same day we posted that, we posted a story about the UK Ministry of
Defense to release eighteen more files. And this guy's kind of confusing. So
stay with me here, Jason and friends. So the Daily Star, I
wrote to say story about eighteen more UFO files to be released, and they
had a quote from Nick Pope where he's pretty much saying this is really embarrassing
for the Mood. They said they released all the UFO files and now they
haven't. Lots of UFO people or conspiracy people said they were still hiding files.
And they turned out to be right and so very interesting stories. So
I did some more research to find out, well, where did the Daily
Star hear about these files? And on the Mood website I found a document
to a foyer request that said this person asked for some very specific documents,
and the response says, we do have these documents, and several others were
going to release those, but first we have to analyze them and send them
over to the National Archives and that's going to take about nine months. I
assumed the Daily Star had written about this thing on the Mood website, so
that's what I put in my story and everything. It turns out John Burrows,
one of the other witnesses, got a hold of me and he says,
hey, on the hauntra where did you get that? Because I haven't.
I don't think I sent that to you. And you know, actually
they told me months ago they were going to release these files, and that
Nick Pope's The Daily Star story was because I sent them information on September fifteenth
about the release of these files and how I'm pursuing more files than some other
interesting facts about Rental Force I figured out. So I looked into it and
we got a response from this guy named Andy Russell who said no, that
letters from me from September, and that was the Ministry of Defense responding to
me on September sixteenth, So this is interesting. John Burrows actually submitted the
original Foyer request back in December and they had told him, yeah, we
found eighteen files and we're going to release them. He talked about this in
Sedona here in Arizona, and a couple of people Larry Lowe and Billy Cox
wrote about him saying that and about those files and shame on me for not
reading their stories because I didn't even realize this, and I should, you
know, we should out because we try to keep track of everything. So
this guy Andy saw that those stories and he did his own request for those
files based off of Larry Low's story on this is John Burrows Sedona talk and
then the mod responded to him. But coincidentally, John Burrow sent out his
press release to just UK Media on the fifteenth, and then on the sixteenth,
the Mod posts this letter in a response to Andy about the same topic.
How weird is that? I mean, are we to believe that's coincidence?
It always could be, but that's one heck of a coincidence. Yeah,
it's hard to think of it. I don't know, I'm having a
hard time. Of course. John Burrows doesn't believe it to be a coincidence,
but he thinks themod's playing tricks on him and being funky with him,
and he has other evidence and has told me these stories about the Mood doing
that and doing some weird stuff with him, and he supposedly has uncovered some
really cool stuff. But yeah, how wild is that? The Mood posts
on their website about these eighteen files the day before John Burrow sends out his
press release, and then that you know, Daily Star next day writes about
it. It's kind of like the Mood wanted to preempt the Daily Star story
or anybody else writing about it, or maybe even seem like, oh,
we're not hiding secrets, you know, this is you know, we're being
public about this. When they really kind of weren't because they had only why
when they respond to Burrows in December or January not post it until September sixteenth.
It's really strange, it is, the whole story is strange. Yeah,
I'm interested to see what comes out with those files. Yeah. And
then on top of that, you know, in my discussions with Burrows,
he pointed something else out to me. That's really cool that in two thousand
the MOD had a report done on UFOs, and Burrows says this report was
essentially their evaluation of UFOs in order to get out of the UFO business.
It's something like twenty one pages. It's a very long document. You can
still go download it on the UK's website and we have the links to our
story. But he points out and he was shocked to see this, and
he was very dismayed with other UFO researchers, namely David Clark, and you
know, he wonders why Nick Pope didn't spot this. This document that evaluates
UFOs didn't come out until two thousand and six. At that time, David
Clark looked it over. He said there was really nothing new and nothing new
about Rendalsham in here. I guess Nick Pope also maybe missed this, but
Nick Pope supposedly went over it and didn't find this also, but John Burrows
went through it and was shocked to find there's this section about radiation and UFOs,
and there's a part that says that people in Rendalsham Forest and they call
him UAPs Unidentified aerial phenomena, you know, And John Burrow thinks they changed
their name from UFO to UAP, so people putting four your requests for UFOs
wouldn't get the UAP stuff. Another interesting thing where it could be some tricks
being played by the mod but and they've admitted to playing tricks in the past,
so exactly surprising exactly. So this says, yeah, that the Rendall
Schremp Forest guys had seen a UFO for a period of time, so they
could have been exposed to UAP radiation for a long period of time. And
now Burrows is sick, he has heart problems, so is Peniston, and
they've been trying to get their medical records from this period of time and the
military has their records have been screwed up. So Burrows, for instance,
didn't even show he was in the military for this period of time when he
was he had to go to his senator out here, to John McCain,
and he was living in Arizona and Arizona at the time. They said,
we were able to get your records fixed. Now you show you were in
service from seventy nine on, which he was, but we'll probably never be
able to get your military health medical records from that time period. Really strange
stuff, I mean, talk about conspiracy stuff. You know, Why would
these two guys have their medical risk records missing from this period of time.
It's it's really weird, crazy story. And that's one of the for me,
one of the more interesting elements to the entire Renders From story, you
know, because to me that that does indicate that there's something there that somebody
doesn't want anybody to find. But this whole thing paints a bigger picture of,
you know, just fuel for conspiracy theorists. They don't they don't forgive
any reason, uh, you know, to dissuade any of these conspiracies,
unless they intentionally want conspiracies going. But it's like they fuel the fire intentionally
exactly so much there and it's so bizarre exactly, I mean, uh,
if they if the you think they would be more careful if they're trying to
suppress this idea that there's a big conspiracy. But I mean, all of
this does smack for some sort of cover up going on, so it's very
strange. Burrow says he's found a lot more information that he's still gathering and
that he'll give us and we'll help release it. I figured we just try
to tackle this in bite sized pieces because it's all very complicated. But really,
people, you got to go check out this UK it's called UK Defense
Intelligence suggests witnesses may have been exposed to UFO radiation. That's the story.
So come and get up to date on this. And you know, I
think we only need to support John Burrows in his efforts. And I've got
to say I was really impressed with the work that Burrows has done so far,
learning how to do foyas and doing all of this research going to McCain.
He's done a lot of great stuff. Some of this is outlined in
the book, the recent book that Nick Pope wrote that with him and Peniston,
but there's only a little bit. So he feels that, you know,
more of the story needs to be told and I told him more certainly
more than happy to cover it and write about it. So really really interesting
stuff. I think this is going to be an important story going forward.
I think it's the man. Why all of a sudden is there all of
this news about Rendlesham. Yeah, that's another weird thing, huh. I
mean yeah, I mean it's coincidentally. You know, the same day you
have the story or a couple of days you have the story about the art
piece going up. Then you have the files being posted on the mod website
and the story and the press conference thing going out. It is strange.
Didn't they just have a conference well over there too? Yeah? Really good
point, because that had to do. The original press release was released by
the conference on September fifteenth, and they have a press release that outlines this
and it went out to the media and they put it on their website.
However, John Burrows included that press release and a whole press kit that he
sent to the UK newspapers and he also sent it to us and that's where
I was able to get more of this information. But so they had all
the papers, had a lot of information and it's really I think disappointing of
the Daily Star that all they did was really say there's going to be more
files out. They use these quotes from Nick Pope, which are great quotes,
but they didn't write about all this other stuff, which is really also
very interesting. They didn't mention anything about Burrows having problems getting his medical records.
I mean, that's a big deal. I would think, Well,
the Daily Star isn't known for its quality reporting. Oh oh no, you
did. No, I didn't say anything. Yeah, they're kind of a
tabloid type of paper which is very popular. Oh yes, yeah, so
really good Steph. And then I want to ask you about one more Jason,
if you if you would humor me for a minute, this story about
this UFO swerving out of the way or this airplane swerving out of the way
of UFO, What do you make of this, this whole thing. It's
the drunk pilot. Ah No, I don't think there's anything terribly crazy about
this. Yes, it's a bizarre airplane contrail that for whatever reason, seems
to deviate from its flight path and swerved over. The odd thing is here
is that you know the paper that covered this story. Talk to the photographer
Florence Lehman, A school teacher, and you know, based on the comments
from this person, he said they heard from somebody else that the pilot the
plane was actually seen swerving, and other people said they saw a UFO.
But we don't have any testimony from those people who apparently actually saw something.
We just have the woman who photographed the contrail. MM. So there's lots
of hearsay testimony there. We don't know what actually happened, right right.
So, and another possibility something that was suggested is win currents taking that particular
spot. Do you think that's possible. I don't really think that's possible with
that trail to day intact as much as it appears to in the photo,
because when wind does disperse the contrail, it spreads out, and you know,
that seems very specific to that one area, and the trail itself doesn't
seem to dissipate at all. So I don't I don't really think wind would
do that, but I don't know. Yeah, I'm not an expert in
air patterns and what they can do. So yeah, yep, I gotcha.
Yeah, so interesting stuff. People have to check that out, but
it, uh, yeah, definitely an interesting picture. So I wanted to
see what you thought of that. Yeah, you know, I would.
I would think something more mysterious with it, or think it was worthy of
more discussion if we did, in fact have more details from people who actually
observed it rather than just somebody who took a photo of a weird contrail.
Right right? Ho? All right, well, thank you very much once
again for joining me for the news. Mister Jason McClellan, join us again
next time for UFOs in the Nude. Well, we could be we could
tell people that we're doing UFOs in the nude right now and no one would
know. But then nobody would listen, even though it's just radio. That's
still disturbing, that's true, because then you get that in your your mind.
That's right. And nobody wants to see us in the nude. Well
some people do, our women do. I hope yours does. No,
nobody wants to see me in the news. Wow, that's sad. All
right, Okay, So we'll talk to you next week, Jason. Why
don't we now talk with mister Norio Hayakawa. I am very excited to well,
welcome back to the show. Norio Hayakawa. Hello there, Hello Hendra,
how are you good. How are you doing? Oh, very fine
and very excited about the upcoming event right here in New Mexico. Oh my
gosh, I am too. And I was planning on going to be honest,
and I was, and then I was talking to you know how girlfriends
always have to burst the bubble My girlfriend the other day and she was like,
well, that's the weekend. We already have plans where we're going camping
with the Phoenix move On because they have a camping event every year. And
I'm like, oh no, I thought that was the different weekend. So
I was going to drive out there and check it out because you have some
great speakers and yes, and I hope it's fine. I hope that everybody
else goes. Yes. I hope so too, because this is the first
time ever right here in the city of Rio Rancho, which is the largest
growing city in New Mexico and it's right next to Albuquerque. But this is
the first time ever for this city to have a UFO conference. And the
title is actually called an New Mexico UFO Conference, And to my knowledge,
there has never been a New Mexico UFO conference before, and is it.
It's a one day conference on Saturday, October fourth, Is that correct,
That's correct, Saturday October fourth, from one thirty pm to seven thirty pm.
And this conference is going to be held on the opening day of the
famous Balloon Fiesta of Albuquerque. I used to go to that every year my
mom lived in Albuquerque for a while, and that was the other reason I
wanted to make it this weekend, because a balloon Fiesta is absolutely amazing.
Oh yes, it is absolutely amazing. And the balloon Fiesta actually starts out
early in the morning. It's early morning event basically when the balloons start,
you know, flying, so but during the daytime it's very quiet and not
much activity until the evening when they have this night blow and so on.
But during the daytime, nothing to do. So this is the reason why
we're having this conference, so that people who come to balloon Fiesta will have
something to do and find out about this conference, they might stop buying,
right. Yeah, And that's a good point in that, you know,
you get your double bang for your butt going out there for the balloon Fiesta,
which I believe is the largest in the world. Right, it is
the largest balloon event in the world, I believe. Yeah, they launched
something like a thousand hot air balloons. I remember that the numbers around there
in the air at once. And of course it's amazing because you get to
walk the fair grounds as they're launching these things, and each of the balloons
is huge. I mean they're all very big, and they launch them and
it fills the sky and you know, all these people floating around up there.
It's an incredible thing. It's amazing. And they come in all different
kinds of shapes imaginable such as star wars that shape, you know, all
kinds. But I have yet to see a flying saucer shape. Yeah,
there's an alien one. Yeah, there are alien ones. Yes, I
would like to have a flying saucer one soon. Yeah. So who are
you having at your conference? Well, actually we are having four speakers,
five speakers, including myself, and we have Michael Schratt who will talk about
man made UFOs and the America's black budget programs. And then we have Greg
Balvez, who is the son of the late Gabe Balvez, whom you interviewed
in a historic interview a few years ago, I think in twenty eleven before
he passed away, In fact, a week before he passed away. You
interviewed him, right, Yeah, And I mean I think what happened to
is I had him on and then I had you on because you were able
to arrange that for me. And yeah, unfortunately he passed away soon after.
Yes, and we're so happy to have Greg Balds take over the research
that his father has done all the years about Dulce. And Greg Waldez carries
on his father's legacy and he published a book recently called A Dulcet Bass,
and he'll talk about this amazing subject, the dulced Bass. And then of
course we have David Marler who lives right here in Rio Rancho, New Mexico.
He is the author of this book called Triangular UFOs, a very interesting
subject. And then to finally, you know, uh, top it off
all, we have a Travis Walton from Arizona who will talk about his unusual
experience. You know, it's whether one believes it or not. He claims
that the experience is real and it's probably real, and who are we to,
you know, deny his experience and because we really don't know what reality
is anyway. So this is a very interesting conference, a whole spectrum of
ideas, and that's why we want to explore this, and especially doing things
like this in New Mexico is very important because you know, New Mexico has
an amazing Ufo history and culture, no question about it. And that's going
to be your topic. That is my topic. It's about the amazing Ufo
history and culture of New Mexico, which is one of the most unique states
in so far as the history of the UFOs are concerned. And you know,
even today, New Mexico is considered to be a state that continues to
have a lot of citing reports and well do you have a sense as to
why. Well, actually, New Mexico is a huge state. It's the
fifth largest state in Union, with a population of only two million in the
entire state, and so it has a tremendous space, the vast space for
you know, first of all, for a government to conduct any kind of
experiment or any kind of secret projects. And of course, this would be
the the most ideal state in the United States for any kind of outside possible
intelligence. If they were to find out about Earth, New Mexico is probably
the first place they would look for because it has the most advanced military research
development programs ever since nineteen forty five and earlier, because this is the first
state in which the nuclear explosion took place and tested, and after World War
Two maybe many other tests of different kinds were conducted, and so this would
be an ideal place for those entities. If they were to be here,
this would be would be the first place they would come. Not that I'm
saying that they are here or something like that, but I'm just saying that,
you know, this will be an ideal location. Yeah, it would
make sense, and especially if, like many people, of course, Robert
Hastings is kind of the pioneer in the field of UFOs and nukes, if
there really is, you know, something too, extraterrestrials being interested in our
nuclear abilities, and it would make sense that they would be there in New
Mexico, like you said, where it all started. And I think they
still write they still dismantle nuclear warheads at Curtland Air Force Base there in Albuquerque.
Is that or in the Manzana area. Yes, the actually it's under
Cortland Air Force Base now, but both the Manzano Base, which had the
underground nuclear storage facility, is continuing on in another part of Courtland Air Force
Base. Underground and they are definitely storing many of the sensitive materials even today.
And so you know, insofar as nuclear materials, Albuquerque's Cutland Air Force
Base is very, very significant and important. And what's interesting in all of
this, Alejandro, is that it all started in nineteen forty seven, the
very same year that a lot of things started happening. Yeah, yeah,
it's strange. What are your thoughts about nineteen forty seven and all the important
things that seem to have begun in that year? Exactly as I said,
you know, the actually the Sandia National Laboratories, which is one of the
largest defense contracting corporation oranization started in nineteen forty seven right here in Albuquerque,
New Mexico. And the Kirkland Air Force Base became the air Force Base in
nineteen forty seven. It was just an army airfield until then. And then,
of course nineteen forty seven was the very same year that the CIA was
established as well as NSA, the National Security Act passed in nineteen forty seven.
So there you have the strange coincidences regarding nineteen forty seven and over in
Nevada in nineteen forty seven, actually the egn G Corporation, which is the
first contractor to land itself as a contracting service at Area fifty one. They
started in nineteen forty seven, even though Area fifty one actually began in nineteen
fifty one. Five. It's interesting that the EG and G Corporation also started
in nineteen forty seven. Wow, it almost makes now I know, and
we'll get into this, that you're we would be considered a conservative researcher,
which is something I very much appreciate. But when you think in nineteen forty
seven, and you know, I was thinking UFO wise, but other,
you know, other important things like you mentioned, but you've just mentioned some
more I didn't even realize. It almost makes you think of a metaphysical kind
of answers. Why you know nineteen forty seven seemed oppy special, like the
stars were aligned in the correct way or something going on there. Well,
it's a good question, you know, as is everybody know who's in nineteen
forty seven you had this incident at Roswell, which we still don't know what
the real truth about at Roswell is, you know, And then of course
in nineteen forty seven, not only Roswell, but other locations in New Mexico
had a strange incidence of something crashing. And for example, on July third,
nineteen forty seven, an object crashed outside of Magdalena and Datil, which
is right near the VLA very large array complex. It's in the plains of
San Agustine. And this crash of an object on the plains of San Agustine
took place in nineteen forty seven, on July third, and it's very significant.
And speaking about New Mexico, yes, in August of nineteen forty five,
I believe it or not, a strange object crashed outside of a small
town called San Antonio, New Mexico, which is just south of SoCoRo,
and it was witnessed by a few people there. And so people think that,
you know, when it comes to UFOs, New Mexico is just Roswell,
but it's not true. There's more to New Mexico's UFO history than just
Roswell. In fact, there are more interesting and important incidents in New Mexico,
such as, for example, in nineteen fifty in a small town of
Farmington in northwest New Mexico, for three days in a row, Alejandro every
day around noontime, hundreds of Farmington residents witnessed hundreds of silver disc shaped object
maneuvering in the sky over their town. And this is just one of the
most amazing mass UFO sightings ever in the history of UFO in America. Yeah,
yeah, I know, that's one that David Marler's really interested. He
sent me a life size clipping of the newspaper just recently. But yeah,
because there was at least one picture, but I think it was unknown who
took it that resulted out of that, and it's a pretty amazing picture.
It is an amazing picture, and it's black and white, and of course
that was nineteen fifty and in my opinion, it's a very very very important
picture. And I'm glad one hundred because I understand that it was through you
that that picture came about. Well, it was actually a Wendell Stevens picture,
so he gets all the credit. But yeah, we have his record.
So I scan that and we've got it in our magazine and I got
one for David and and I think we have it online too. I think
we have a video about it actually as well. I'm talking about that siding,
because yeah, that's a that's a great sighting. Yes, you know,
and so we don't know what really happened, but we're talking about hundreds
up to five hundred did shake objects maneuvering over Farmington during the daytime, and
this is just this is hard to imagine, but it happened. It occupied
the front page newspaper of Farmington Daily Times, and then also it was reported
in La Times in a small article. So it's a verifiable incident and many
witnesses even today. But as David Marler said to me, we must go
to these witnesses because you know, we don't get these testimonies, they'll be
dying pretty soon because they are, you know, already in old age.
So it's very important to get all these documentations. Yeah. So talking about
a little bit about you for people who aren't aware, like, how long
have you been studying this field? For a long time? Right, oh,
yes, for a long time, Alejandro. I started actually nineteen sixty
one, wow, and I was just you know, just a great school
seventh or eighth grade student, and so that was in nineteen sixty one.
Then I went to high school and then I started subscribing to some newsletters from
APRO and Nightcap, you know, National Investigations Committee on aera phenomena. It
wasn't DC, and so I became interested. But really what really catapulted me
to uphology is the incident that happened on April twenty fourth of nineteen sixty four
in a small town of Sokoro, as I mentioned in New Mexico, very
famous Lonnie Samora SoCoRo incident of nineteen sixty four. And I heard about that
incident strangely in Japan when I was living there. I grew up there in
Japan, and I was in a you know, it's in a college over
there, when one day I opened up the English newspaper, Japanese English you
know edition uh, and on the third page there was an article saying that
policeman sees saucer sitting on sand. That was the title, and it was
from a small town called Sokoro, which I had never heard before, uh.
And it said that the patrol officer witnessed this strange oval shaped object land
landing or actually it was already landed, you know, in the desert,
and he stopped chasing a high speed chasing car and he went to the desert
because he found he listened to this explosion in the desert and when he went
to the desert area, he saw this silver oval shaped object with insignia and
with tripod just sitting there about three hundred and fifty feet you know, away
from him. And this was a very very well documented incident of April nineteen
sixty four. Exact day was April twenty fourth, and it was investigated immediately
by people like Alan J Allen Heinek and others, and they claimed that this
is an authentic incident, verified and you know, approved by the Air Force
as authentic. And so what's interesting thing about this incident was, of course
the Lonnie Zamora's you know, testimony of testimony of seeing this insignia on the
object, oval shaped object and two entities dressed in some kind of white coveralls.
And what's more interesting is that Lonie Samora ever described them as out of
the ordinary. He just described him as normal looking. Yeah, he never
said they were aliens or anything like that. He said they were just normal
looking, except they were small in stature, but wearing white coveralls. And
so this is just a fascinating thing that still remains as one of the most
credible incidents. I think Hector Kintania, who is a real skeptic. The
head of Blue Book at the time said this was the one case I think,
didn't he say that he felt had some merit exactly exactly, And so
most of the at that time Blue people and you know, the Air Force,
they came, you know, I would say about fifteen to twenty personnel
came. That's related to the investigation in the put an official stamp approving that
this was an authentic incident, and so, you know, but one thing
interesting is that on April twenty four, nineteen sixty four, there is also
a rumor, this is not verified, but at Holoman Air Force Base,
which is south of White Sands and Missile Range, you know, about two
hundred miles south of socorl there was supposed to have been some kind of a
landing of an object in the Holloman Air Force Base on the very same day,
April twenty four, nineteen sixty four. But you know, this is
not really fully documented, but you know, it's I don't know if it's
a coincidence or not, but it's interesting to say the least. Yeah,
I think that I know, has said Richard Dodie, who you know worked
for Air Force and had thought the crazy stories. Uh said that there's Amora
Ufo had landed in the wrong spot. They got their directions off and they
were supposed to land in Holloman. I know that's one of his stories.
And they got they got their directions mixed up or something. Well, that
is uh, as I said, there's so many strange stories coming. I've
heard the recent story and and it looked pretty credible about the insignia on the
side of the craft where the one that was released early on was not the
correct one. And the reason was is they wanted anybody who said they saw
the UFO, they wanted to ask them, well, what does insignia look
like to check if they got the right one or not? Very interesting.
Yes, you know, there could be a lot of interpretations of that.
Yeah, uh insignia. And so the question is did he see something extraterrestrial
or did he see something that was made by the government, And that's the
big question. Yeah, she will remain even today, and it seems to
be a big question, kind of the main question that you tackle in your
research. That's correct because I try to have my two feat on the ground
when it comes to UFOs, and there's no question that the government has a
lot of technologies that would surprise us. And you know, this is the
reason why I respect researchers like the late Gay Baldez who investigated a lot of
cattle mitilations and the UFO signings in Dulce in New Mexico in the mid seventies
and eighties, and he came to the conclusion that it's possible that the government
may have experimented in remotely controlled platforms that looked like lying saucers, and also
may have used some kind of a technology of some kind of a holographic projection
technology to create some kind of a UFO incident or a series of incidents in
the Dulce area. So which is very very fascinating to begin with, you
know, because the Dulce area has a very unique, strange history too,
because it was only nineteen sixty seven that the government exploded and a nuclear device
underground just about twenty two miles southwest of Dulse on December tenth, nineteen sixty
seven, and it was called Project Gas Buggy, and the idea of US
to east the flow of natural gas trapped deep underground in that area, so
they were benefit that area, you know, but it seems like radiation leaked
out little by little, little by little and may have affected some animals and
even humans in that area. So game less beliefs believed that the government may
have clandestinedly monitored radiation levels of some of these cows in particular that were affected.
So it's a very interesting theory that the government may have created or staged
some kind of alien related scenario by use of technologies. And you know,
actually gave bout this. One of the was one of the first persons that
said that possibly Sandy laboratories and by late nineteen seventy may have had some kind
of prototype of UAV or unmanned area vehicles that resemble like flying sauces. Yeah,
I found it so really interesting when I talked to him, that he
works with so many paranormal researchers, you know, cattle mutilation researchers, ufologists,
and its friendly with everyone. But he was pretty he was pretty certain
that that there are no extraterrestrials of itting visiting this planet, that it is
all man made. And it's interesting coming from someone in law enforcement who lived
in that area. I think you can argue, and I think Chris O'Brien
makes this argument that that's where the most cattle mutilations have happened, and he's
been close to it, so it's interesting he should say that and feel that
way. That's correct. But of course, on the other hand, there
are many other incidences throughout the world, such as in South America in Argentina
that had a lot of cattle middulations that are unexplained. So you know,
it's still unresolved basically. But one thing I can say, Alejandro is that
New Mexico is very important in the sense that many German scientists and engineers came
here to New Mexico right after World War Two because the United States government brought
them from Germany to give us some of their so called black technologies that they
used to develop in the nineteen thirties and nineteen forties, and such as the
flying wing aircraft and then of course rocketry and all other stuff. So you
know, it's very interesting that the German scientists, through the Operation paper Clip,
became a very essential part of the development of America's black budget programs,
including you know, not only the weapon systems, but other researchers. For
example, many of the German scientists were sent to Los Alamos National Laboratories to
conduct research on genetics, and someone and then other scientists went south to White
Sands to begin testing rockets and then also other prototypes of some kind of aircraft,
probably applying wing aircraft and others. So it's very significant the German presence
after World War Two in New Mexico. Yeah. So, and I know
at your conference Michael Shadull be talking a lot about those craft, and of
course Greg Valdez about Dulse. But you know, you being a more conservative
there skeptical investigator, you do have you know, David Marler and Travis Walton.
David Marler, who I think is a great, very careful investigator,
and what do you think of his findings. He has found that the triangular
UFO signings go back into the past further than I think anybody had realized,
certainly further than I had realized, and that you know, the human answer
to that question, at least to completely answer that question is you know,
in his mind, because they go back harder to explain, you know,
all of those sightings. That's right. A lot of people have the notion
that the triangular UFOs started, you know, being reported in the late seventies
and so on, but according to his research, yeah, it goes as
old as the late eighteen hundreds and maybe even earlier. So this is one
subject that is perplexing, and it even goes even to this day. So
I think he's a very unique person that concentrated on specifically on triangular uphos,
and of course triangular UFOs varies so much in size. You know, it
goes from smaller ones to extremely humongous ones like three times the size of football
field, which is very very difficult for us to comprehend. How an other
that four times the size of football field can actually hover or just go very
slowly without dropping. And so you know, according to our present knowledge of
propulsion systems, most scientists and engineers would say that an impossibility. So on
the other hand, you know, the reports come quite often, so we
have to take a good look and not come to any conclusions. But you
know, this is something that we must deal with, something that we cannot
hastily come to any conclusion. So I want to ask you another question.
Something I asked him and I thought his answer was interesting, and it was
and I think it sounds right on the idea what are your ideas behind the
existence of the t R three B. Well, actually, uh, this
idea of TR three B, to me, it has been misdirected. In
other words, this idea basically started with mister Edward hush or whush. And
but actually the most credible information is really not TR three B but TR three
A, which the Aviation Weekend Space like now mentioned that in the nineteen nineties.
And yes, t R three A is considered to be more credible information
rather than the TR three B, right, because yeah, that's my opinion,
And there's no real mention of THR three B anywhere that I know of
in the UH documentations of the Air Force and other you know, aviation military
aviation publications. Tr you know three A. I totally agree with you.
And you know, the t R three A, while kind of a stealth
plane, a flying wing triangular craft, was nothing to abnormal. I think
it was a proof of technology kind of craft. But it, you know,
nothing like what people describe as is TR three B, which yeah,
you know, when Marler looked into it, he didn't find much evidence either.
He found exactly what you just kind of outlined. And when I've looked
into it, I've found the same. So it's an interesting mythology, this
TR three B that started up exactly. And you know, it's the kind
of very strange looking because most artists rendition of TR three B A two R
three B described the object as a very thick you know, it's very thick,
too thick, and it has three lights supposedly on each end of the
triangle the angles, and of course it resembles the photograph of the Belgium UFO
sightings of the nineteen nineties. But you know, the honest opinion of mine
is that so far we have not seen in any single credible, a documented
photo of any triangular UFOs. And that's that's a very strange thing to me
that even the Belgium famous photo of the triangular UFO or craft that was taken
by a person in Belgium was proven to be a hoax, right sadly,
so that was a big disappointment, disappointment to me. And so this,
despite the lots of reports of the nineteen ninety wave of triangular objects in Belgium,
we still haven't come up with any definitive, credible, fully documented photograph.
And that's the one thing that is still mysterious to me. Speaking of
mysterious, I want to get your your feeling. Obviously, I think you
must feel that the Walton case is a credible one. But being a more
skeptical or researcher and I feel similar, at least for me. I guess
I could share how I feel and see if you feel similarly. Is that
I really? You know, I've become friend with Travis. He's out here
in Arizona. I see him often, we hang out when we're at conferences
and stuff, and I've never seen him falter in the story. It seems
so credible, I really. To me, for me, nothing is one
hundred percent, absolutely nothing. But he's right up there too. You know.
I really believe the story and his experiences. And to say that means
that you believe some really wild stuff. So how does it make you feel?
Well? As I said many times in the past, we still don't
know really if the image that we see or experience is real or not.
Because I have found out that the military has been working for many years,
at least thirty years, especially the Naval research laboratories and so on. They
have experimented for many years in psychological operations and also in inducing a picture or
experience to an observer, including the experience of some kind of abduction cases.
And this is a fact because even doctor Jacques Ballet mentioned that in nineteen seventy
five, the US Naval Research Laboratory did some experiments in Brazilian jungles involving indigenous
people over there in the Amazon area, and the US government the Research Laboratory
actually used different kinds of helicopters and different kinds of equipment for mind control and
did some experience experiments with the the indigenous people in the jungle and created a
scenario way by they these indigenous people were absolutely convinced that they were taken in
inside some kind of a space vehicle and was examined and then released. And
so this is what I mean that, you know, uh, the experience
that people, uh the abductee claim could be real, but whether that reality
was induced or created by an outside force for some kind of a reason,
it's very interesting. And that's why in this conference, a New Mexico UFO
conference, most of the speakers, like myself, Michael said, Greg Baldess,
and David Marler accept that it's possible that many of these UFOs are man
made technologies. But on the other hand, we invited Travis Walton because he
is very unique. He is one of the most credible people as far as
the abduction account is concerned, and he has never changed his story for many
many years. As you said, So we're talking about a real incident that
is reality to him. But the big question is what is that reality?
Is that the same reality as we understand, or it was some kind of
induced reality, you know, well, be getting to that. That's what's
great about his case. Also is that there are other witnesses, So would
you infer them that they were induced as well, or perhaps he was taken
and then then the the inducing happened. Well, it's it's it's a it's
a big question, yes, you As you said, this case is unique
because it was uh reportedly uh witnessed by his uh you know, woodcutting colleagues,
and so that's what makes this case a very fascinating case. So we
still don't know what really happened, and that's why we must continue to find
out more about these type of things, you know. But the abduction itself
is definitely to me a personal incident, a personal experience, and not you
know, multiple personal experience, but in this case, they were this incident
was witnessed by the other woodcutters. So that's very interesting. Whether we have
a technology now to create this kind of a thing, you know, for
some kind of a psychological experiment, we don't know yet. Yeah, yeah,
you know what, it'd be great if you could come to our UFO
Congress this year because we're going to have a couple of guys part of the
Alligash abduction case from the seventies. And really, I think this case ranks
up there with with Travis's because one of the great things about Travis is meeting
him. He's so down to earth, you know, he's such a level
headed guy. You get to talk to him about stuff, and so are
these Alligash guys or just you know, stall of the earth regular guys.
And that's what's always cool because sometimes you meet some of these people and they
are lecturers, they're performers, you know, they're out up there doing their
thing, and you don't get the sense that they're just kind of a regular,
down to earth's a guy like you do with Travis. And so that's
one great thing about Travis. And I'm really excited about having the allegash guys
at our conference too. I don't know if you've met them. No,
I haven't met them, but definitely interested. But regardless, you know,
we're talking about this phenomena which is still remains in the mystery. Yeah.
So on the other hand, yes, we may have technologies to assimilate some
of these incidents, but on the other hand, there are so many cases
where we have no answers. You see. That's why this whole UFO phenomena
continues to occupy one of the mysteries of this world. And that's what's great.
And I do love you know, and I know some people get frustrated,
but you know when a more mundane conclusion is offered or possibility is offered,
and I've certainly seen on your website or on your Facebook where people have
gotten frustrated with you, how do you deal with that? Well, I
just deal with that, as you know, I'm used to it because,
as I said, I am not a debunker of anything, because who am
I to debunk anything? You know, because these things, this phenomenon is
real. It is real, except that we don't know what they are.
You know, we have no definitive proof that they are physical extraterrescual entities with
physical extraterrestrial craft, or they may not possibly be just physical or maybe not
physical at all, because as doctor Jacques Well he said many years ago,
the UFOs may not actually be flying, no are they possibly objects. So
it's very interesting and that's why we continue to have this topic because this is
one of the most important topics that you can ever think of. And that's
why I'm so glad to have this new Mexico UFO conference and my hats off
to the Mayor of Rio Rancho. The Mayor of Rio Rancho declared October fourth
as the official UFO research Day. Oh awesome. Yeah, it's going to
be in the newspaper on Sunday. I believe because he has the guts to
claim and he's the mayor that this is going to be an important day.
And he didn't mention anything about aliens or nothing. He just said that this
is a UFO research day. That means it's a very serious thing. That
is so cool, that is really really cool. I know, you have
to run. Thank you for coming on the show. People can know more
about the conference. They can go to NMUFO conference dot com to find out
more. Of course, you can also look for Norio o Hayakawa on Facebook
and what I just want to say, you know, I love your stuff,
I love following you on Facebook, and I love your your grounded approach
to things. So thanks again for being on the show, and I wish
I could make the conference. And really, people, you got to get
out there. It's only twenty bucks, that's right, and one of these
days I will attend you a conference. Okay in February. You got it
so much for your work, oh my pleasure. Absolutely thanks for following it,
Okay, thank you, thank you so much for joining us. Norio
has some really interesting stuff and you've got to go to his Facebook and check
out his news. He always comes up with some really interesting stuff. So
you can go look for Noreo Hayakawa. And of course if you go to
my Facebook Alejandro Rojas, you will find he is one of my friends if
you're looking for it. Sometimes it gets hard to find people, but there's
probably not too many Norio Hayakaways, so it probably won't be too difficult to
find him, so check that out. And if you want to read more
about his conference, it's nm UFO Conference dot com If you're in the New
Mexico area, you got to check it out. I would be there,
but I'm going to go camping with the Phoenix Arizona move on this weekend,
so I had prior engagements to r I'd be driving to Albuquerque. I love
Albuquerque anyway to go check out this conference, So go check it out people.
Also, I want to mention a couple of things before I let you
go. First of all, I haven't mentioned this in a while, but
it keeps growing. We have this really cool UFO video portal. If you
go to open mindsat TV, you'll see a link video portal. You'll also
see a graphic in the upper right. And what we're doing is posting all
of the lectures and some other things, but mostly the lectures from the International
UFO congresses in the past. And some of these talks are incredible. So
we have like Ajjvard from Brazil. We have Antonio Juneus talking about UFOs of
the twenty first century. We have Carol Rozen who used to work for Werner
von Braun, the rocket scientist, Francis Barwood who was on a city council
in Phoenix during the Phoenix Lights, and investigated the Phoenix Lights, so a
lot of really cool stuff and plus some of the regulars that you've heard about,
Jim Mars. We also have Lloyd Pie talking about the Star Child's skull
and unfortunately he passed away in the last year, so you'll be able to
see more about that. So we have lots of videos and we have more
going up every month. It's only like six bucks a month to join,
and you can have access to all the videos you want, watch them all
the time, over and over again, and you have more videos popping up
all the time, or you can watch them each for a smaller amount or
for just a couple bucks. But yeah, really cool. You got to
check out the video portal, and of course check out Spacing Out. We
had a new episode on Friday where we talked about in depth about some of
this news we talked about here, but we talked about more than just this,
and Jason of course has his piece on there or he talked about he's
debunking UFO sidings largely lately, but in a very interesting way and it's good
to know when there's hoaxes and stuff. But he does a really cool piece
on Spacing Out, So check that out on our YouTube channel, but you
can also see it on Openminds dot tv, and then of course you want
to register for the UFO Congress. We're so excited. I think I mentioned
it, well, I talked to an Orio about it, but I'm just
so excited about the Alligash guys. I know a lot of you like Travis
Walton, and so do I. Travis Walton's awesome. Oh yeah, And
I talked about Travis Walton's Skyfire conference coming up in early November. We're going
to go out to a SkyWatch at the location where Travis was taken, and
so that's gonna be a lot of fun, and we're gonna interview some of
the witnesses. We'll have a video up but you can go to that if
you want. Go look up Skyfire Conference. But the reason I'm mentioning Travis
Walton's case is because it's an incredible case with multiple witnesses and meeting Travis,
he's such a down to earth guy. Well, these Allagash guys in the
seventies had a similar experience where they were all taken. They were all win
under hypnotic regression separately, but remember similar things. The creatures look similar amazing
case and when you meet these guys, they are so cool and so down
to earth, your regular joes, and they're going to be at the UFO
Congress this year. And I'm just really excited about this because this case is
just so incredible and not a lot of people know about the Aligash case this
year, and I think it's as big of a deal as a Travis Walton
case. And it's great when you can actually talk to the witnesses, so
really cool case, and we're going to have them there among other really cool,
incredible speakers that you've got to check out. So February eighteenth to the
twenty second, go register for that. And as always I like to tell
people go reserve your rooms now, because they go really quick at the host
Hotel. But luckily, if you don't get at the host Hotel, there's
a couple nearby ones and last year they all sold out, and I'm sure
they will this year too because we're getting a lot of registrations, so join
in the fun. It should be awesome and soon here we're probably gonna have,
you know, some other announcements of some other really cool speakers as we
finalize our list of speakers here, so I hope you join us. Thank
you so much for listening and being here. Again. I want to thank
Caleb Hanks, who does our opening and close music. You can find his
music at UFO or I always say UFO, but it's supposed to be the
clerk Chronicles dot com. He does some great music. So thank you to
Caleb, and of course thank you all for being here a week after a
week. We really love it that you join us, and we're so happy
to hear from you when you tell us that you like the show. We
work really hard to bring you some really cool stuff, and we have cool
stuff coming up. We're gonna have some regarding Rendel Shim. We're gonna talk
to some when next week you haven't heard from nor has anybody, so we're
gonna have something unique and really kind of a really it is an open minds
UFO Radio exclusive regarding Rendolship for us next week, so you're gonna want to
check that out. So you all have a wonderful week. We will talk
to you then. Audios amos, your motionless