Hello, and welcome to Open Mind UFO Radio. I am your host,
Alejandro Rojas, and I am here with the Jason Spaceman McClellan. How are
you, buddy? This is the spaceman read you loud and clear from up
here in space. Excellent. You're not really in space though, you're actually
in embois right. That's right. I am in Boisy. But be cool
to be in space, I know, man, one day, one day,
we'll get there. Both you and I are really into space. We're
really into space, commercial space, space tourism, all of this stuff.
And you know what, that's one of my main motivations getting into this stuff.
Actually, it's it's that idea that there could possibly be aliens out there.
I'm of the mind that they would be mostly good guys, and so
it's kind of like, you know, this hope that maybe one of them
will give me a ride in their spacecraft. You silly dreamer. I know
that would be so nice though, So that's what I'm doing on Yeah,
you have, you're so full of it? What are you talking about.
I've told you before I'm a commander of board spaceships. Apparently that's what I've
been. You got to listen to what you're told. I've been told that
too. In fact, I've been told I will be in charge of a
whole space fleet, but or am but it's not true. It's just not
the case. Yeah, maybe a fleet enema. As much as I wish
it were, it isn't. Unfortunately, Yeah, so bad for you.
So our guest tonight, this is really interesting because it is Kathleen Martin,
and of course she is an abduction researcher. She's written several books, mostly
co authored with Stanton Friedman. She is the niece of Betty Hill, of
you know, Betty and Barney Hill were the first two real big public American
abduction case, you know that people found out about. So and now what
we're talking to her about is that she says that, you know, during
her life, she's also had experiences and that now she's willing to kind of
share that with people. And so for the first time, at least for
us, we're talking to her about that. She's amazing and we talked to
her a lot, we know her very well, and I think it's really
cool that she's not starting to talk about this. She's talked about it a
little before, but you know more so now, and I don't think a
lot of people realize that. So this is gonna be a great interview.
Yeah. Oh, it's only been very recent that she said anything. She
kind of had her coming out just a few months ago, or she sent
the email and stuff to people, and I fell back because I didn't respond
at all, and I was thinking, hopefully she doesn't think that I'm not
going to talk to her anymore. But luckily we get to see her quite
often, and we started the Travis Walton thing that he had going and so
yeah, so so she's a great lady and we'll be talking to her about
that. However, before that, you and I have a lot to talk
about because it's been a couple of weeks. We've been extremely busy, of
course with the UFO Congress that's coming up, and in fact, this might
be our last show for February. I mean, hopefully after the conference we'll
be able to arrange one and get win going. But of course the next
week or so it is going to be so so busy for us. We
have the conference which starts in a little more than a week here, and
then we have our recovery, which always takes some time because we're working,
you know, twelve plus hours a day, more like easily twelve plus hours
a day at the conference, and so getting everything back here and getting reset
up is always takes a long time. So as you know, Jason,
because you've been through this quite a bit as well. Yeah, I mean,
it's like you said, both the physical recovery time as well as the
putting things back together time that delays getting back to normal. So we'll do
it as fast as we can. Yeah, But because you know, we've
been so busy, I was going to arrange something and let's talk about this
story first. I was trying to get to talk to John Greenwall, but
he's been sick, and no doubt partially because of these events that have gone
on. So you and I talked about how he was able to post the
Project blue Book files. And people have accused us of being inaccurate, but
actually I think we've been accurate since the beginning, in fact, more so
than any other place, and we've been very we've explained this whole thing.
But just to quickly review, essentially, what happened is there was a gentleman
who's a computer specialist or something like that, and he was able to create
a program that was able to get the images digital images of the blue Book
files from a website called fold three. Of course, these are government documents,
and he then gave them to a bunch of people, including you know,
Mofon wanted to post them and so did others that we would have loved
to have. It took me two days to download them when this guy gave
me access, but there are so many files that it would have taken us
forever to put them up, and we administer the move on website right now,
so they would I told them, you know, unfortunately we can't do
it. You can maybe get someone else to do it for you. But
John Greenwald was also talking with this guy and working with this guy, and
they were able to come up with not only a program that could turn these
files into PDFs so they'd be searchable, but then also post them so they're
easily accept accessible in PDF format so they're searchable. So huge advantages. We've
been writing about you know, blue book files for for a long time.
In fact, our magazine the last few issues had you know, blue book
files that we would specifically write about, and so I was going to this
fold three site to get it. I had to pay when I first got
there in order to download them, and they made them free, but you
still had to register there, whereas with John Greenwald's site, you don't have
to register. You don't have to download one page at a time, which
is a long process and difficult because it takes forever to even download one page
on their site. You know. I think they probably, you know,
for bandwidth reasons, have that go a little slower, but or maybe they're
bandwidth. It's just slow, so it would take a long time, whereas
you can go to greenwald site very quickly, find the file, download the
PDF, and you would have the full case file right there, which can
be fifty pages or something like that. So it was a big deal,
I felt, you know. So I wrote a story about it to promote
it, and it was in haste because I was busy with other stuff that
I put up this story very quickly, and I didn't get into all of
this minutia. But now fold three has said, hey, we have digital
copyright over those files. John Greenwald argued that, well, it's not just
your files that I post. I also posted my own files that I've gotten
from blue Book, but they didn't want to hear anything of it, and
so very frustrating. And there are people who are accused John Greenwald of stealing
these files from fold three. Which frustrating about that is these people who are
claiming that know very well where these files came from and that John did not
download them, another person did, so that's blatantly lying. These people are
just completely lying. And it's so sad that, you know, there are
these people out there, and we know it better than anybody because we're the
brunt of all of the of this stuff. Often, you know, whenever
you do anything especially significant, you have these these haters who come out and
hate, hate, hate, and just like you know, are so intense
in their attacks, and and it's really sad and it's very frustrating because John
Greenwold, you know, knows better than anybody that when you put up digital
files, especially once you've gotten through foya, they belong to the world.
At that point, he's got over a million files he's gotten through Foya's at
the black Bowl dot com, so he's very aware of how all of that
works. So a lot of people are very frustrated that Fold three made him
take them down. Someone with you know lawyers have been consulted and say that
they don't have legal grounds, but you know, no one at this point
has mounted and you know, been willing to pay lawyers to fight this out.
However, I do know there are people with resources that are very frustrated
about this, who are behind the scenes working on it. And the story
isn't over and before long I think John's PDFs are going to be back online.
Yeah, I think that's most likely going to happen because of the baseless
claims. I think it's you know, really the a lot of big companies
do this, a lot of small companies do it too, just kind of
scare tactics. They would like to have exclusivity. But you know, in
this case with full three, I think they're more concerned about you know,
they're hard work they're digitizing being taken and I kind of get that, but
it's still at the same time, let's look at what we're talking about here,
and that's public domain files. And look, I mean, I think
it's the wrong approach. Look at look at us on the open Mind's website
and the files that we have painstakingly scanned and put up the apro files,
and how many people have downloaded those and put them on their website. Are
we going to see those people? Absolutely not. They're not our files.
Yes, we did take the time and effort to put those things up,
but you know, they're not our files exactly, you know. And it
took me months to get these these files on dody and then these Air Force
files that I did the foyer on. I knew as soon as I posted
those PDFs they belonged to the world, and which is fine. It took
me hours, it took me a lot of work, but they're up there.
And the other question is is how did fold three get those files?
Because a lot of people are suspicious and some people say and I don't know
how they know this, but hopefully they've done the research to confirm it.
But I know the work's being done, and we'll find out that it was
the National Archives that digitize those and gave those to fold three. If that's
true, then they are public domain because National Archives is a government agency.
Anything they do belongs to the public and taxpayers paid for it. So that
may be the the you know, akil Achilles heel in this whole thing,
although I think there's more than one, but it'll be interesting to see how
this all unfolds. You said, fold unfolding, fold three. There's a
good, good headline, good headline, Yeah, exactly, that's a Billy
Cox kind of headline, Alex use clever headlines. Going on, what story
do you want to talk about? Well, as you already mentioned, and
as you've mentioned so many times before, you and I are big space people.
We love space, we love space exploration, and I think, as
we pointed out at our end of the year review and making predictions, I
predicted that you know, we're going to find extraterrestrial life officially in the coming
couple of years, and movements by mainstream science is looking more and more likely
to have that happen. And here's what I'm talking about, Alejandro. So
in twenty fourteen, we mentioned that a research team evaluated a list of confirmed
exoplanets, leading to the conclusion that the Milky Way is home to one hundred
million planets that could support not just extratrustrial life, not just like microbes,
but complex alien life. That's huge. And now a team of scientists has
and teams keep doing this. There's such a wealth of data now, so
you have so many research teams doing different research projects with this data. So
another research team recently took data collected by the Kepler Space telescope, looking at
the planets that Kepler has identified and looking at the method that Kepler uses to
detect planets. It's bias towards planets that are very close to their stars because
it's seized by the transit method by when these things move in front of their
stars. So there are a lot of planets being left out. So in
using their method and their estimations, they concluded that there are hundreds of billions
of Earth like planets in this galaxy that may host Dailien life. That is
incredible, Alejandro, And we're finding out more and more. It seems like
every day basically that extraterustrial life. It's everywhere. Life is everywhere. So
I think, and you know, things are gearing up here with Europa Mission
National is going to go to Europa. I think they're going to find life
there right here in our own solar system. It's happening, brother, it's
happening. So let me ask you this. Because of all of these planets
being found, we hear more and more about the Fermi paradox, which is
this idea that if there are so many of them out there, why haven't
we seen them yet? What do you think of that? You know,
I think we know we've said it before. We know so little about our
own planet, and we know so little about the life here, and we're
always discovering new life here here we didn't know existed, and it's been here
all along. I think there's plenty of life out there. I just don't
think we're either looking the right way or we don't know exactly what we're looking
for. And it could be if there are more advanced civilizations. I mean,
if they're advanced enough, and there are astrophysicists who believe this who agree
with this mainstream. If there are advanced civilizations to have the technology to get
here, then they probably have the ability to do so unnoticed or badly.
Is quite likely. And I mean, look again, these amazing tools that
we have, these space telescopes. They're looking extremely far away and using complex
methods to even detect the planets are there. But look right here in our
own Solar system and look at you know how long it's been since we've been
to the Moon, and the limited research that's been done on our own celestial
bodies here in our own solar system, we know very we know a lot,
but we still know very little, you know, mad missions I think
are going to provide a lot of additional information. We've got rovers on Mars
to discovering lots of new things every day. So I mean, I think
that although we have incredible instruments that are finding billions and billions of Earth like
planets very far away, that's incredible, and even some of those planets we
can get pretty good guesses about what the atmospheres they are alike, and what
the planets are the compositions of the planets, but still they're guesses. And
with as much as we know about the planets in our own solar system,
which is a lot, I think it's still very little. So there could
very well be civilizations in my opinion, here on our own solar system,
and we just you know, the research that we've been able to do again,
lots and lots of data, lots and lots of research. We know
so much, but we still know very little. Yeah, good points.
And you know another, I think I think this is really interesting, So
it'll be great to hear your opinion on this. And of course we talked
about it on Spacing Out. But this little metal orb that these guys at
the University of Sheffield and Buckingham their Institute of Astrobiology there, which we've talked
about a lot, because these guys feel that they've got lots of examples of
extraterrestrial life, microbial life in meteorites from Mars, from you know, things
they've collected from the stratosphere they believe are from space. We've talked to you
know, Richard Hoover works with them, who is at the Congress. So
but yeah, they've now found on this balloon that they sent to the stratosphere
a little metallic sphere that they say is made out of titanium and vanadium,
and they say it has filamentous you know, life on the outside of it,
but it also has a biological goo that it's oozing out of it.
And they have you know, this thing is only the size of a hair.
When they found it in a balloon, it made a little crater.
So they believe that this thing came from space and that this is some biological
space gou and they go as far as you know, the team lead doctor
Wainwright, Professor Wainwright, who we've talked about before. He's made news about
this kind of stuff before, and these guys are out of the UK.
They says that they think that this possibly even could be a probe sent by
an extraterrestrial civilization to either see life or they even suggest even more scary that
perhaps even seeding a virus. But regardless, I mean, it's just more
and more of this. At the very least, it is possibly more evidence
of life from elsewhere. The research these guys do wayne right, and with
Graham Singer and some of the others, they're in a team. It's incredible.
It keeps, the evidence keeps mounting and hopefully, you know, they'll
start be being taken more seriously by colleagues. But you know, it does
get a little difficult, and you can see why when he's making claims like
that. You know, and perhaps the evidence does merit that claim and suggests
that, But at the same time, when you're already dealing with something that's
met with ridicule and you're not being accepted by your peers, it might be
more beneficial to your research to keep that to yourself. Well, I think
that's been probably their problem. This entire time. Is that this group in
particular likes to, I guess, jump to conclusions. Of course, they're
just speculating, and I think that that's fair. But a lot of people
feel, I think that they are going too far with the speculation when they
need to focus on their work and what it might mean. So when so
a lot of people have a mainstream scientists have argued, hey, you know,
just because you're finding these things doesn't mean they're You still haven't proven definitively
that they're from space, and that's what you need to do first. Although
they do have, I mean, some pretty strong evidence that And and what's
interesting is that this balloon they sent to the stratosphere, NASA is going to
repeat this experiment, so I mean, and do it themselves and see if
they get some life, which will be interesting if they do, but because
then what will they say. Of course, NASA is really slow at coming
out within the information and analyzing, so whenever they send up this balloon,
we probably won't hear results for years after. But it shows that these guys
and what the doing is taken seriously and is real science, and and they
you know, and they are respected professors and everything so even though people like
to kind of make light of it a bit in the mainstream, Uh,
it still is serious work. Uh. And of course, uh doctor Hoover
who's worked with them, is worked for NASA and was in charge of their
astrobiology center for a while. So, uh, these are important people.
And I think, you know, more and more of these scientists are being
convinced that, you know, perhaps some of this stuff is evident of extraterrestrial
life. And you know, with NASA's recreation of this, I hope they
take the factor of faked approach and do it. And no matter what the
conclusion is that they reach, they don't you know, poo poo it or
or you know, debunk or or you know, try to say, see,
we showed that this means you're wrong. I hope they do whatever they're
going to do, and then you know, if it does, if they
do have some explanation for and say, oh, it's you know, earth
contamination, they can say that's the case in our study. But we're not
saying that that's what happened in their case. We're just saying this is a
possibility. Yeah. Well, what's funny is would we count on it?
But yeah, it would be nice if they do that. Well Waynwright even
suggested that if they find something, perhaps they won't give us credit. But
I not that he. I think it's more important that it confirmed there his
life. But that's kind of secondary. Who gets credit, I think,
but he does, you know, did kind of mention some quote similar to
that, which is funny, which is probably too If NASA does find something,
I'll probably say, look what we discovered without referencing you know, this
prior discovery, right, And to the credit of these these scientists, they
are careful to stay state that. You know, when they put out these
ideas, they're just ideas. They're possible. Yeah, they're not saying that
we can prove this. They're saying their ideas. But you know, now
again, when you're dealing with controversial subjects like you know, the theory of
pants burmia and more controversial directed pants bermia, you know, when you when
you have an incredible discovery like this, you know, like I said,
I think it's it's better and more beneficial to your research and having your research
taken seriously, you just focus on the extraterrestrial aspect and you know, leave
the speculation for another time. Yeah, yep, so really exciting stuff though.
So both of these stories is just pointing towards possibly the possibility of your
prediction that twenty fifteen will be the year of the discovery of alien life,
I mean, the official announcement. So it could be we're getting closer and
closer and it's only the first week of February. That's right. Exciting things
happening. Yeah, pretty cool, Pretty cool, dude. So uh ross,
Well, there's a couple stories regarding Roswell that we need to talk about.
I think, first of all, one that's an obvious hoax. Second
of all, one that hopefully is not a hoax. Do you want to
talk about the one that we know as a hoax or at least seemingly sure
I can talk about that. So yeah, earlier in the week there was
a was it this week or last week? Remember it all blurts together?
Yeah, all right, so I think it was Okay, So technically it
was at the end of January this started happening. But there's a magazine,
it's a New Zealand Australian magazine called Uncensored, and they came out with the
claim that said that the editors of this magazine discovered this strange footage that shows
its original footage from Area fifty one showing an alien from the Roswell crash is
taken to Area fifty one as military military footage. You know, they're saying
that they're technical people that are frame by frame analysis and they wanted to do
this before going to press with this great news to determine, you know,
whether it was fake or not. And they claim they're technical people determined it
was legitimate in every respect. And so, I mean, people are probably
pretty familiar with this footage, people in the UFO field anyway, because we've
seen this all before. This stuff has been floating around the internet for years
and years and years, coming from various sources. And you know, it
actually appears in the two thousand and six comedy movie Alien Autopsy. They had
some black and white footage sequence in that film as well. And this footage
is nothing to do, like I said, and it's it's started controversy for
years. People although it's in this fictional movie, people think that it's actually
some of the original footage from Race Antilli's Alien Autopsy. He claims was he
acquired from a military source and that film was damaged beyond repair, so he
recreated it and the popular television broadcast it was Alien Autopsy. But he hinted
that some of that original material remained the original footage, and that's what this
thing was, and it was slipped into the fictional movie Alien Autopsy. But
you know, that's kind of hard to believe, being that the person who
worked with Antillian created the alien for his movie also says he created the alien
and this black and white sequence in the two thousand and six comedy. So
pretty bogus. But still there's some who think that's all cover story and that
this stuff is actually real. But right, including one of our colleagues,
because a lot of people don't know that, you know, this footage was
out. This was Race Antilly and when it was created, as you know,
of course, you know they're they're kind of not sharing all of that.
And it was funny because one person had said, oh, it's obviously
a rubber I could see it bounce, so that means it wasn't part of
the original Well it was from what uh we understand because with this footage has
been around even before the ant and Dick as it's called Alien Autopsy movie.
Our colleague Marizio Baiata had been following this story for a long time, and
he even remember they tried to sell us that footage, right, because they
believe it's real. And I think it was from Madicia years ago that I
had first seen it, or from his colleague Paula Harris, and I think
they both still believe that this piece is real, and so it is more
well produced than I think the rest of the video. But and it's interesting,
I think that if the actors are really good in it, they seem,
you know, they're all running around and look really shocked. But of
course the video is different in that it's you know, really distorted with these
you know, like film effects of the film breaking and stuff like this.
So it's as if, you know, there's only a few secondary covered from
this old film. So yeah, so that's why a lot of people,
there are some people out there believe this bit to be this small part to
be real, but some people believe the whole alien autopsy video is still real.
So even though, like you said, the person who created has come
out and admitted that, you know, well, it's a recreation of a
real film. He says, right, and Philip Mantle. You know,
he's somebody who did a lot of research and yeah, alien autopsy film,
and he certainly believes this is a load of crap. So yeah, he's
done a lot of great research. We've printed we've printed some of his research
into this on our website and in our magazine. So the second Roswell UFO
alien story is one that came out just a couple months ago in November.
Well actually it was there were inklings of this and rumors in certain UFO websites
for a while, but it really only kind of went mainstream once Tom Carey
and I should say, you know, that's what's interesting and what's important about
the story we just talked about the Unexplained magazine is that that's kind of gone
way's mainstream and it's gotten into a lot of news. But this one also.
But this is when Tom Carey was at American University in November and he
said, I've got these photos of an alien, but I can't show you,
but we'll show them to you later. And it was unfortunate, fortunate
in that a lot of people just rolled their eyes, I mean, and
a lot of people question was this the best place to say that? Because
this was the first time such a prestigious university was, you know, doing
a panel like this, or at least the first time in a long time,
and so that might not have been the best place or at least,
you know, you need to show your evidence, and so people question if
those is the best place for Tom Carey to talk about these photos. Finally,
some more information has been revealed. Just the other day, Jime Moussan,
the Mexican journalist and UFO researcher, did an online kind of press conference
with Tom Carey and his colleague, his partner, Don Schmidt, you know,
both the two premiere Roswell researchers. They also had another witness to this
whole thing, the friend of the sister who found these photos. And they
also had embedded in there a little bit of this video from I guess the
film historian who had looked at these and we'll talk more about that because that's
the best part really. But so they gave more details essentially that these photos.
It confirmed some of the rumors that were out there, but at least
it's more firsthand. But yeah, so I guess this lady was cleaning up
this house, getting it ready for an estate. Sale. It was a
house here in the Phoenix area of I guess, a well to do couple
who had passed away. She found this box of photographs. She thought that
was in the pile of stuff to be thrown away. She decided to keep
it. She puts it in her garage. Then ten years this was nineteen
eighty nine, I guess. Ten years later, she looks at it and
she's looking through it, and the box is kind of falling apart, and
she sees these pictures of like Clark Gable and Eisenhower and stuff like this.
Although these are at events, it doesn't look like these people are hanging out
with Clark Gable and Dwight Eisinghower. It looks like they were at events they
were at and we're taking pictures of them, like golf tournaments or special events
stuff like this. So the box is falling apart. They take the wrapped
up slides and look at those, and there's alien, an alien in these
two slides, allegedly, So they look for some people. They finally get
a hold of Don Schmidt and Tom Carey, who helped them analyze these.
They get to this historian who confirms that the picture was taken in nineteen forty
seven. The sleeve that the slides are in where the slide sleeves they use
from nineteen forty two to nineteen forty nine, so they believe that, you
know, it dates this picture to that period of time. They confirm that
what's in the picture is not an animal or anything known, and so many
of these people have concluded not only that it's an extraterrestrial, but that it's
an extraterrestrial from ros Well, since it was possibly from nineteen forty seven.
They have not shown the picture yet. However, they released a lot of
stuff, so we have, you know, the picture of the Kodak historian
kind of did a recreation of what this alien would look like off of what's
in the photograph, so we posted a picture of that. But I think
the best video with the most detail, that's really well produced was done by
this historian who look, he's going to put it, he's going to do
a documentary, and in that you can actually see a frame because he's working
on it. Most of the time, his computers fuzzed out when they're showing
the alien picture, you know, they're blurring the alien picture. But there
is one where he's creating this mockup of what the aliens look like. And
you can see, you know, the alien's face apparently from the actual photograph
in this thing if you closely. But we have all of these videos and
interviews posted so you could get up to date on what's going on here.
So and I didn't even say in Mexico at the National Auditorium in Mexico City
on May fourth or May fifth, Sinco de Mayo is when they're going to
reveal the actual photographs and I guess some more of the research, although they've
released most of, if not everything, that they've got so far, research
wise, it'll be interesting to see. I want to see this photo and
I'm confused. You know. It's a cool recreation that they show in this
kind of what this alien in this live would look like. But you know,
Carrie says that the head's been removed from the body of this thing,
so I wonder how they figured that out with the thing being decapitated. Well
that's a good point, you know, and people have asked, and when
I wrote the story, I didn't want to make an assumption, but I'm
guessing that maybe the head's laying next to the body. They say, it
looks like this body has been dissected, so that's what I'm guessing, although
they haven't clarified that, right. Yeah, so we'll we'll have to see
and yeah, I guess everything will be in the upcoming documentary called Codochrome,
And have no idea of a release date on that, but I guess we
can assume that it will be some time after May fifth. Yeah. The
trailer that guy did for this Codochrome documentary, which is the I guess the
historian who put that is doing this is really good. And it was cool
because he showed the pictures to Neil the grass Tyson and who said, Okay,
fine, you know, maybe there is this is an alien, but
talk to me later, essentially telling him, you know, let me know
when you can release more research and evidence first. But the point being to
that they're just photographs. We don't know the owners of these photos are dead,
so we can't ask them how they got these the circumstances around them.
All we can do is guess the I mean, if they were alive,
they might say, oh, yeah, this was we were on a movie
set or something. The other thing is is that we can't confirm it's extraterrestrial.
All we can say is it looks extraterrestrial, because we don't have the
actual body to do any sort of testing even to say it's from Roswell.
Nobody knows for sure, because you know, there's nothing from what I understand
that indicates that. So it's just a guess. Because of course, these
are Roswell's researchers who believe aliens crashed, and there are bodies there that were
recovered. So so there's a lot of I mean, best case scenario is
you have some interesting pictures. Yep, that's exactly right. And you know,
I think there are going to be plenty of people out there who disagree,
and and you know, I certainly know that the people involved with all
of these going on, I think this will be the biggest thing. You
know, Don Schmidt likes to say the biggest revelation of the millennium or whatever.
But yeah, I mean, so they come out and have these photos
that show something weird that they can date to a certain time period. Great,
Yeah, it's interesting and it's it can be supporting evidence, but that's
all it is is a photo. You know, We've got lots and lots
of photos we've seen, and you know, there are plenty of nice photos
from the forties and fifties, you know, hubcaps flying through the sky.
You know. Hoaxing UFOs is not a new phenomenon, you know, it's
certainly always been there. So I mean, yeah, you can you can
date a photo and say it's from the right time for perhaps to show the
alien or aliens from the Roswell crash. But we can speculate, that's all
we can do. We can look at the photos say this is interesting,
but we don't know what's in it. And I wonder if it would be
possible to get a slide from nineteen forty seven and hoax this like an unex,
you know, to could you get the sleeve and the material? I
mean, I don't know, it is possible, Yeah, slipped the film
in and glew it back shut. Yeah, I don't know. And people
are very resourceful people, Yeah, fake things all the time for whatever reason.
And obviously there's money behind it because you see that documentary. It's a
pretty nice documentary, Yeah it is. It's very cool. So so we'll
see a lot of unknowns and hopefully some of this will get answered, But
no doubt there would be a lot of people doing a lot of research on
all of this, So we'll see what happens. And it was very suspicious
that most of the details for the background come from an interview of the friend
of you know, the woman's brother who found the allegedly found the but his
interview was taken down from YouTube, and I wonder why that's the case.
Slickly, I was able to pull the quotes out and stuff that we have
in our story before it was taken down, but a lot of that information
is also in this trailer for the photocra information. Absolutely, yeah, and
I think a lot of that you know, interview is being taken down whatever.
You can see that there's a lot of things being done here to hype
it, and I get that. I mean, they want it to be
a big reveal and they're building up to this gigantic ceremony in Mexico City.
So we'll see what happens. Yeah, we'll see what happened. So and
of course other people are frustrated because Jime Mussan's backed been very adamant about things
that have turned out to be hoaxes in the past, so that also is
troublesome. For many researchers, and you know, he's a bit of a
showman. So this whole thing, you know, delaying and doing all these
videos and making it the show. Yeah, yeah, it is a little
concerning, and you know, it could potentially turn off the mainstream media,
the mainstream public from taking it seriously. And look, I mean we talked
about the alleged Roswell video that the magazine had their technical people prove was authentic.
You know, they authenticated the video, but as we know, it's
not authentic. Right, Sure it's authentic, it was authentically created and probably
the nineties or whatever for a movie. But yeah, yeah, it's frustrating
and who knows if this will have a positive impact or a negative impact.
But I mean, the whole showmanship of it all is I mean, I
don't know how to feel about it. I kind of have a problem with
it, but you know, it is what it is. Yeah. So
finally I want to talk about because this is a bigger one out there too,
and just to let people know kind of what's going on with this one,
because I feel it's important that we do this, especially with the important
videos and stuff like that. And that's when Stephen Greer is sending out Stephen
Greer sent out you know this video atists from a c SETI outing where they
go to calling extraterrestrials because they believe, you know, they can communicate with
extraterrestrials and call in these UFOs. Well, they're at Vero Beach in Florida
and they're doing their meditations to call in UFOs and these bright lights up here
off the beach over the ocean, you know, bright orange lights. They're
very impressive. Everybody's really shocked, and Greer says, there they are,
there's the alien. Send them your love, you know, thank them for
being here, you know, do your mediitration and through your third eye and
stuff like this, he's telling them. And so everybody's really shocked and they
look at these They posted that online and sent it around, and you know,
one of the witnesses was contacted me guy I know from Colorado, and
he was there and he told me all about it, and he told me
about how they add other sightings and you know, they feel like when they're
meditationating they can't see him with their eyes, but aliens are always there and
they've been able to confirm with the aliens or arcturians and all of this stuff
around. This video, well, I had a couple of people look at
it, such as Mark D'Antonio, who's the chief photo analyst for Moufon,
and also Bruce mcabee, who used to be the chief photo analyst for Moufon.
But he is an optical physicist who's worked for the Navy for many,
many many years in the Naval Warfare Center as an optical physicist. He very
quickly said flares. Mark D'Antonio is more frustrated. He actually says, these
are obviously flares. When you look at the video, you can see that
they are slowly descending, even though people say are saying they aren't. And
they both moved to the right of a bit, you know, probably being
blown by wind, and then the when that appeared first fades out, and
then the one that peered second fades out exactly like flares would be. He's
frustrated, and I didn't put some of this stuff in here, because he
says Greer, having been someone who is a skywatcher for years, should have
very quickly identified these as flares, but he's obviously purporting them to be extraterrestrial
and that to him is suspicious because Gear does charge twenty five hundred dollars for
these outings, a lot of money, so you know, I mean essentially,
I believe he's living off of this and the donations that he gets for
his organization. So he thinks, you know, is this being used as
a marketing ploy? Other people are looking into it. And so you have
these two camps, a lot of the researchers saying they're obviously flares, and
other researchers saying, you know, are people that were there and support and
just saying no, those are extraterrestrials. Of course, Geer sent out this
image a lot of this extraterrestrial they believe they got in two thousand and nine
at Joshua Tree. I don't see it whatsoever. And even when you go
to the site, he has a picture of where the campsite was, and
then this et. To me, it's obviously the Joshua Tree that's right there
in the image, the daytime image. I don't see that it's an extraterrestrial
whatsoever. It's this blob. That image has always frustrated me that it's being
purported as a as an et. But that's some of the controversy around this,
this latest video. And you know what I don't like with the video
and the similar outings is just the high likelihood and I guess kind of overt
suggestibility and telling people what to think. Yeah, you know, in the
video, you hear him telling people to turn off certain scopes and things and
only he's looking, and he tells everybody that there's no smoke or anything visible
through whatever scope he's looking at, but won't let other people look. Yeah.
I don't know if you've got that too, but it did like he's
kind of telling people what to think and people are just supposed to take him
at his word. And I know people have their beliefs and and you know,
that's good. People should believe what they want to believe. But I've
always had a problem with, you know, this whole focusing your love and
light and good energy to make aliens appear, extratrustrials appear. And you know
that just seems like such a strange thing for extraterrestrials to do, Like,
hey, that person wants me to turn on the light on my spaceship.
And then sometimes they tell them to like to move around and stuff, like
if you focus your energy and send them, send them your positive feelings.
They'll they'll dance around for you. Like what extratrustrial is. I'm going to
sit there and say, Hey, that person's sending me a message and wants
me to like waste my gas and bounce around so that they can be entertained.
Like see you they're bouncing. That means they love you too. Like
really, I mean, a lot of stuff is just being made up and
people eat it up. And that's that's a real shame because there there is
quite a bit of legitimate stuff out there. And I think people who claim
to have all of the answers and tell you when you're wrong, but tell
you that everything they say is right, that's wrong. I totally, I
totally agree. And you know, there is a psychological component. When these
people have spent twenty five hundred dollars, that's a that's a major commitment they've
made, and so they want some payback for that money they've spent. So
they even more so than the person who has just driven out to the to
the woods or to the desert to look for UFOs, even more so,
they have a vested in seeing something unusual, So they want to see something
they think is extraterrestrial, really really bad. And so that's another component also,
this whole thing with smoke and flares. I posted a video that I
got of the Goldwater Range and some flares and these flares. You can't see
smoke. I see these floors, these flares all the time. In that
video, I used my telephoto lens on a very nice DSL camera that I
have, and you can't see smoke at all. All you see is these
bright, intense lights. And so when I looked at this video, I
noticed what Mark saw. The witness has said that this didn't happen, that
they stayed stationary. But now when you watch the video, you can see
they drop. They've dropped a bit, and they have moved to the right,
just like Mark d' antonio says. So first, you know, I
looked at it, I'm like, wow, this is really cool. But
then when I look more closely, it's like, oh, you know,
what does look like flares are dropping and they're moving together in tandem, and
like he says, one fades out and the other one does. They're also
very similar to the color in my video, you know, of these flares.
So I kind of thought, you know what, most likely those are
flares. And the hard part is is, you know, a video to
call it something otherwise has to demonstrate that it is so. And these don't
demonstrate that they're not flares really, right, I mean everything in them is
quite in line with the behavior and appearance of flares. I mean in the
video you hear Greer saying, oh that that color, you'll never forget that
color. That color means this or whatever, And yeah, I mean we've
seen that color. The color is also the color of flares. But yeah,
I mean, could it be something remarkable, absolutely, But to say
it with certainty and tell people exactly what it is and tell them that you
know for sure that it is not a flair, that's wrong because you don't
you can say, you know, we've seen things like this before that have
been mysterious and you know, nobody's claimed responsibility or whatever, and it could
be, uh, you know, an extraterrestrial spaceship. But if you notice
flares are like this too, They have similar appearance, They appear in the
same way and disappear in the same way. So we could be looking at
flares. But if it's extraterrestrials, send them your love, let them know
you care. Yeah, you know, there are other ways to go about
it. I just have a real problem with claiming with absolute certainty that these
are extraterrestrial spacecraft. Yeah, so more on that, just story people who
just give you a lot of money, Yeah a lot. I mean,
if you've got ten people there, that's what two hundred and fifty thousand dollars
whoa, and I think it has more than that typically at these things.
So, and that doesn't include like food and lodging. Sometimes it includes the
the rooms, but usually it does not. So pricey event, and no
doubt. Sure you can come to the UFO Congress and join our SkyWatch with
Ben Hansen from Factor Fake with a lot of night vision equipment. Guess how
much it'll cost you. Ours is free. It's zero road dollars. So
hey, we'll do the same thing, except we'll do it for free.
And you can even meditate and stuff. Sometimes there probably will be people doing
some meditation. That's great, do it. I love meditation. Help call
them in free experience. Come to the UFO Congress. Yeah, and come
tell us how greedy we are. We're greedy bastards with our free events.
So I let us know if you disagree, because of course we have all
these stories online, and Jason and I both feel we are certainly not the
authorities. We are very intelligent, I would like to I think you know,
and we're learned in this area. But we respect everyone has opinions and
beliefs, and we absolutely respect your right to believe whatever it is that you
want. And we certainly love to hear dissenting views as well, as long
as they're respectful. I don't like to hear the others. Of course,
we get people that are totally jerkofs don't like to see it. I respect
that they have their opinions, but hey, come on, you don't have
to be a jerk about it, right, of course, But some people
don't know any other way to be. Yeah, that's true. Poor guys.
They're just so angry. It's not a good way to go through life.
But there's our news, a lot of stuff going on, Yeah,
lots of news, and there's so much more on the website. Check it
out. Yeah exactly. So. In fact, I wrote this thing about
called about the thing, this old UK case that is so interesting I think
people should read about. Really cool but anyway, hopefully I'll have a researcher
on soon to talk about that. But that's it. Any other news you
wanted to talk about, Jason, No, sir, go check out the
website of Minds dot tv. It's all there. Right. Let's go ahead
then and talk to Kathleen. I am very happy to welcome back to the
show Abduction researcher Kathleen Martin. Hello, Hello, you. I'm doing very
well, just extremely busy, of course, getting ready for the conference.
In fact, I didn't have a show last week, and I probably you'll
be the last show before the conference, so people I know will be bugging
us about this, but we get so busy. Yes, well, the
conference is coming right off and it's a big one. Everyone wants to be
there. Yeah, so, and it's exciting because you're going to be there.
You won't be speaking this year, but you'll have a table there,
that's right, and I'm really excited about it. And you'll be sharing your
table with that someone who you co author a couple books with, Stanton Friedman.
That is correct. So all right, so let's get into this now.
You've been I'm sure people know because we've had you on a couple of
times. But just for those who don't, I know that we get new
people all the time. Your aunt was Betty Hill of essentially the first abduction
case to really hit the media. That is correct. It is the first
abduction case to hit the media in the United States, and that occurred for
the first time in nineteen sixty six, nineteen sixty five in the newspaper,
and then the book was published in nineteen sixty six. It was revealed to
the public as the result of a violation of confidentiality, and then my aunt
and uncle decided to let the story be told. And who wrote the first
book, John G. Fuller okay, same author who wrote the Incident at
Exeter m Okay. I couldn't remember that part. So and of course it
was a big media event thing, it really was. It became an international
best selling book, which was a big surprise. And then the movie The
UFO Incidents, starring James Earl Jones and Estelle Parsons was made about the incident,
and that aired in nineteen seventy five, and that's a pretty it's a
cult classic now, but at the time was that a big movie. At
the time, it was the weekly television movie that was watched by millions of
people, and then so and then for years after that, you worked with
move On, and in fact you did a lot of different things for them.
And I know you graded my Field Investigator test when I first took one.
Yes, I joined Moufon in nineteen ninety one and became a field investigator.
I was very actively involved in the state of New Hampshire at that time,
became a state section director, and then move On asked me to be
its director of Field Investigator Training. So I wrote the exams and graded the
exams and for about ten years I held that job, so for quite some
time, and then you left that job in order to begin writing books.
Is that correct? That's correct. I had a signed contract for my book,
Captured the Betty and Barney Hill UFO Experience, and I just knew that
I had the deadlines to meet and all of the publicity to do, and
it simply did not fit in for me to do that volunteer job for Moufon.
So I left that and did my independent research for several years while I
wrote Captured and then Science Was Wrong. Stan Friedman and I wrote half of
each wrote half of Science Was Wrong. I wrote most have captured. But
then in twenty and eleven, Moufon asked me to come on as its director
of abduction Research, which I think we're going to change that name to experience
or research, but anyway, I've been doing. I've been in that position
ever since, and a team and I developed new protocol for the investigation of
ET contact experiences and we started out with a very small team. It keeps
expanding and growing. There is currently an experience or questionnaire on Mouffon's website at
just moufon dot com. It's under research, but it's really not research.
It's a screening questionnaire. If you complete the questionnaire, the results will go
to me and then I will assign someone on my team to call you if
that's what you would like to have happen in order to discuss your experiences,
and you know, we'll just be a non judgmental ear for you. A
lot of people have never told anyone before, and it's just really a relief
in a sense to just be able to tell somebody that this has occurred.
But if you think that you might want to have an investigation, they'll tell
you what that entailed. If you're looking for support we can had you in
the right direction. We sort of act as a triage in a sense,
a triage unit to help people out. Is that questionnaire for people who believe
they are currently having experiences? Yes, okay, it is okay, because
you know there are those questionnaires out there, and I know that probably the
most famous one was the Bud Hopkins one where it's like find out if you
are being abducted by answering this questionnaire. Now, this one is actually looking
for commonalities and it's based upon a commonality study that Denise Stoner and I did
in two thoy and twelve. It was a year long study. We were
able to find fifty experiencers to participate in the study and complete the questionnaire.
It wasn't an easy thing to do because I didn't have it posted online,
so it wasn't simple and you know where you could just complete it online.
We also, or I carried on conversations with many of the individuals who participated
as well, and then we had a twenty five person control group because we
wanted to make sure that the commonalities among experiencers were not commonalities among the general
population. So at the end of it was a little over a year.
Actually, we had all of our information and we were able to collate the
results and do the statistical analysis and came up with twenty three commonalities out of
forty five questions. And then that's the basis of your latest book. Correct
with Denise Stoner. Yes, it is two of the experiencers that we wrote
about in the the book that Denise is one of them, and Jenny Henderson
is another that is a pseudonym, but both of them completed the commonality study
and each of them had twenty three things in common, all twenty three along
with all of the other experiencers who completed the questionnaire. The majority had twenty
three. And that book is called The Alien Abduction Files. And did that
just come out last year? That came out in twenty thirteen. Oh okay,
so it's been a little bit a while. Time flies, it sure
does. So before we get into some of the other there is one thing
that you brought up there I wanted to ask you about, and it was
kind of your idea around this changing the name from abduction to experience. I
know a lot of people have various opinions of that on that topic, and
what do you think of that? Well, in my mind, there are
three words that can be used to identify a person who has had contact with
extraterrestrials. One is contact ye and when I think of contact these, I
think of the contact ease of the nineteen fifties. It's always been a term
that meant positive contact. The people back then were talking about space brothers who
invited them onto their craft, who were very nice to humans and did not
have the diseases that we have no longer had wars. They were highly developed
individuals. That sort of thing. Then with Betty and Barney, and actually
and Antonio vs. Boas before that, but we didn't know about his abduction
in Brazil. But starting with Betty and Barney in the United States, it
simply did not fit the contactee scenario. It was an abduction by aliens.
It was very frightening. The contactees were contacted by individuals who looked pretty human.
Betty's and Barney's abductors were a little grays, two sides of grays,
and took Betty and Barney, you know, just sort of stalked them,
playing a game of cat and mouse with them as they were driving the White
Mountains of New Hampshire. At night, stalk them for about thirty minutes before
they actually came down and stopped their car as they hovered only one hundred feet
above it. And then at that point Barney got out of the car.
He's terrified. He observes non humans on this craft. He senses that he's
going to be captured. He breaks away, runs back to the car.
They're are buzzing sounds on the trunk of the car. Tinkling sensation passes through
Betty's and Barney's bodies. The car is vibrating. The next thing they know
that thirty five miles down the road they've lost two hours time and this physical
evidence. A couple of years later, they go to doctor Benjamin Simon.
They find out through separate hypnotic regression that four period of six months with amnesia
imposed at the end of each session so they can't compare notes. They find
out that they have been kidnapped by these extraterrestrials, forced on board a craft
where they are given physical examinations and then released. So that's where the term
abduction came from. It has more of a negative connotation. But then I
like the word experiencer. John Mack came up with that term doctor John Mack,
the Harvard psychiatrist who was very interested in this topic. And it's more
of a neutral term to include everyone who believes they have had these et contact
and abduction experiences. Yeah, it's more neutral, and it's interesting because you
know, it makes me think of cases like Betty and Barney Hill. It
was a terrifying experience. It makes me think of Travis Walton and one of
my favorite cases you're probably aware of this is Jan Walski in Poland in nineteen
seventy eight, So a real early case where it's similar in that well,
he wasn't really terrified, but it was these weird things. They took him
to a craft, he says, and asked him to take off his clothes
and they did some examinations. He was real ho hum about it. But
the extra treasturals in these cases are not evil themselves, are not you know,
malicious. It doesn't seem Betty, you know, talked about conversations she
had and they seem to be, you know, not evil or doing these
for bad reasons. Just like the terrifying aspect was just kind of a side
effect of you know, being taken by people you don't know, to somewhere
you don't worry, know where you are, so absolutely, you know,
they they actually apologized to Betty and Bonnie for frightening them. They told them
that, you know, they just needed to do a few simple experiments and
that they would release them unharmed. That would be it would be better if
they didn't remember the experience itself, better for Betty and Barney. And so
the fear factor was what gave Betty and Bonnie this sort of negative connotation at
first, you know, but the ets were actually very kind. And then
you know who. The person I worked with early on that kind of you
know, demonstrated me to me the importance of kind of a term other than
abduction to get the fear out of it was doctor Leo Sprinkle. I was
skeptical of the abduction phenomena, but people were coming to me. Luckily they
felt comfortable with me, and I felt comfortable with doctor Sprinkle. He was
in the area and he used that term. But what he does is also
very therapeutic to try to bring fear out of the whole experience and to help
people come to terms and not be traumatized by what they believe is going on
and for that reason, I could see how moving from the term abduction would
be helpful. Yes, absolutely, But then again, there's some researchers and
we're going to have, you know, one of our colleagues, Darryl Simms,
will be at the UFO Congress. And there are people along those lines
who just feel these are bad guys, this is terrible. We need to
stop them. They are abducting us. And I believe, you know,
him and others are very feel strongly that abduction is what it is and that's
what we need to continue to label it. Yes, absolutely, and you
know a lot of it is related to the fear factor. But also when
it comes right down to it, they are doing medical experiments and sociological experiments
on us without our permission. So if if they were on earth, they
would be committing a crime by our laws. And I think that people perceive
of it in that light. And you know a lot of experiencers believe that
it is for the greater good of humanity to participate in this, But then
there are others who simply say, well, they're doing this, it's against
the law and they shouldn't be doing it. In your experience, where do
the majority of experiencers fall. Do they most of them feel that you know,
this is being done for the greater good or do most feel like that
latter group that you know this is bad news. Well, I have to
tell you. In the beginning, before they have memories of what has occurred
on the craft, they feel that they've been snatched. They're very, very
fearful, they're very uncomfortable. They want it to end. But when they
come to the point where they actually recall what happened when they were on the
craft, then many people change their minds. They develop a connectedness to the
ets and feel that they are willing participants in this. And you know,
Barbara Lamb and part of her therapy with individuals who have been taken, has
asked them under hypnosis if how it came about, and they have said that
they had entered into a contract agreetan to this before they were born. So
you know, some people say, well, I didn't enter into a contract,
but many people think that they have and their willing participants. So I
don't know. In terms of percentages, I would say after they have worked
through the trauma, after they have recalled their experiences on the craft, I
would say that more than fifty percent would like to continue with the experience and
if they had the opportunity to make it and they would not. That's really
interesting. And I mean, how do you feel as far as the motivations
for these abductions. Do you feel that what's going on, assuming you know,
aliens are abducting people, that it is for the greater good? They
have told me it's for the greater good, and so yes, I believe
that it is right. A lot of people think that they've lied to me,
you know, but I do believe that it is for the greater good.
M So you touched on something really important right now, and this is
kind of going to be what we're going to talk about the rest of the
time. But before I get to that, I want to ask you about
one more thing, and that is accidental awareness, because there's this new paper
that came out and it's really interesting that someone decided to do this comparison with
what's called accidental awareness with alien abduction. But I guess to begin, can
you explain what accidental awareness is? Yes, Well, this is a topic
that was brought up by a medical doctor and a colleague who had hypothesized that
all experiencers who recalled waking up on a table in an et craft were actually
recalling waking up during a surgical procedure that they had in an operating room on
Earth, and that the medical memories that they had a bug eyed well she
said, greenish humanoids. Well, most people don't don't see bug eyed greenish
humanoids, but that was put into the paper. I think of, you
know, the surgical crew dressed in their surgical garb with perhaps those magnifying glasses
that they wear when they're doing surgery. So that's where that idea came from.
I became involved in this because this doctor of actually of psychiatry at Columbia
wrote an article about it and stated that Betty and Barney had probably had accidental
awareness rather than an alien abduction. And she said that, you know,
Barney was actually recalling his the tonsilectomy that he had when he was a child,
and she actually used false information. I wrote an article about this,
and it's posted on my website. It was also published in other places.
My website is Kathleen dash Martin dot com, so you can go there if
you want to read it now. But she completely left out the fact that
Betty and Barney had conscious, continuous recall of observing a silent, hovering,
disshaped craft only one hundred feet above them. That this was not brought out
through hypnosis. For the first time, she misrepresented Barney's hypnosis. He actually
did not have a consolectomy, and so she was just using information that she
thought would fit into her hypothesis rather than using accurate information, just attempting to
say that, oh, it's all nothing. No one is ever having these
experiences. They're just remembering waking up during surgery. Well, I have to
tell you that many many experiencers have never had surgery. It certainly doesn't fit
in. But it was just another hypothesis that was thrown out by the medical
community to try to explain all of this away. It's unfortunate in that I
thought the accidental awareness is really interesting, the whole idea of it. Of
course, she's very careful in her study of accidental awareness and why it happens
and how it happens and the effects it has on people. But it's very
unfortunate and frustrating and certainly, you know, poor on her part that she
didn't apply that amount of study as she's supposed to do, you know,
as a scientist to the abduction phenomena, as she did to you know,
the accidental awareness, to find if there really was some sort of similarity.
There perhaps is a case out there she could have used if she would have
done the research. But certainly the Betty and Barney Hill case did not fit
what she was trying to describe at all. Absolutely it did not. So
that was really frustrating. I was surprised she took that case because it's more
well known and she just was just so off on so many things when it
came to that case. Yes, I mean, but would you it is?
I could see how it would be possible, not that I've ever heard
of it happening, and I think it would be incumbent upon her to find
this out. I could see how it could be possible that what she is
theorizing could have had happened in one or two cases out there. But to
kind of just kind of say it's kind of the answer for the overall phenomena
was that she just certainly did not prove whatsoever. Well, there's always the
possibility that a tiny percentage of individuals who believe they've been taken are remembering a
different kind of experience. And it is true that some people wake up when
they're under anesthesia during surgery and that it can be a traumatic event for them.
There has been a very large study done on this. But then to
say that this applies to wall alien abduction experiences is nonsense. Right. So
moving on to one of the things. The big thing that I wanted to
talk to you about, and you just talked about it was that you said
that the ETS had told you, because it's only been recently correct that you
have come out and admitted that you have had experiences yourself. Yes, I
did. It was a very very difficult decision. I had been keeping that
secret for about forty eight years, very long time. And why did you
feel that you shouldn't Why did it take forty eight years? Well, I
have to tell you that I never do anything for only one reason. I
had several, several reasons for deciding to come forward. One reason is that
many many researchers and experiencers are now stepping forward and out of the shadow and
admitting that they have actually had these experiences themselves. I did it for the
benefit of other experiences, not for myself. Because I want my focus to
continue to be upon my research and not my personal experiences. But I'm you
know, I'm considered to be highly credible and scientific in this field, and
I have a lot of respect, I believe from other individuals, and so
I thought that it would be good at this time to step out and say,
you know, it has actually happened to me as well. And I'm
a highly skeptical individual. I'm naturally skeptical. It took me many, many
years to actually admit it to myself that this was real, even though there
were other witnesses who had the same memories. Another reason I came forward is
because I'm an experience or advocate. It helped to actually be an experiencer to
be an experience or advocate as well, and also for my own benefit in
a sense, because I have been told by many people who have stepped forward
that it's cleansing, that it really takes a huge weight off their shoulders,
and so I thought, well, that would be a good thing if it
would take a weight off my shoulders instead of just holding this tension inside.
And it actually did, so it was cleansing, Yes, it was.
I could see the timing being like, I could see this being the right
time in that you know, you've established yourself. You've not only written worked
with Stanton Friedman, who of course is one of the most reflected respected persons
in this field. You've gone on to do your own research with Denise,
and so I could see how now this would be a good time to do
that since you have established yourself and I can see what you're saying and that
it's difficult to gain credibility if people, I mean, it really shades people's
view. The first thing they will see is you as an experiencer as opposed
to you as a researcher. Had you shared this information earlier, yes,
and I had actually intended never to share this information and want to continue to
be thought of primarily as an experiencer, not as an experience as a researcher.
Can I say, oh, okay, no, no, as a
researcher. So when did when do you remember this starting up? When did
you first have experiences? Well, I've tried to trace that back and I've
been able to trace it back to nineteen sixty six. In nineteen sixty six,
I had a close encounter with a UFO with my aunt Betty Hill,
my mother, my brother, my grandmother and a family friend. We were
at country pond in Newton, New Hampshire. It was February of nineteen sixty
six when we had this close encounter. In April of sixty six, a
craft was observed landing on my grandparents farm by a commercial pilot and by my
grandparents. I lived across the street from my grandparents, and it left physical
trace evidence on the ground. It shared off some trees, it was reported,
and I thought about that over and over again. It was part of
a contact experiment that my aunt Betty had agreed to do. We have a
team of scientists really, yes, yes, And she was attempting to get
a craft to come into my grandparents farm and she was saying, you know,
come in and land and you will be welcomed, you will be received,
that sort of thing. And so as I started to think about this,
well, actually I knew at some point my mother and I both had
memories of finding ourselves on at and I started to wonder if it was in
that timeframe when that craft had landed, because I thought, why did it
come down in land on the farm, what was its purpose? I mean,
I don't think they were taking a coffee break sitting inside that craft.
And so then I started to try to connect the dots, and my mother
and I did have these memories of finding ourselves on a craft in the presence
of these extraterrestrial beings. It was sort of glimpses of memories. And more
recently I had hypnosis about this, and I remember actually the terror of finding
these extraterrestrial beings in my bedroom and lifting the covers and being taken out of
bed with my mother. Wow. And yes, it's a common It seems
to be at least a common theme. And you know, you can confirm
this or you know, maybe I'm off, but that when one person is
abducted, their parents, siblings, maybe a sibling, maybe a parent,
maybe a child also remembers having these experiences. Yes, that's true. It
does appear to follow along family genetic life. And the interesting thing to me
is that after this occurred, we started to have paranormal activity in my childhood
home. We hadn't had it before this. There were light orbs that would
dart around. There was a little poltageist activity where occasionally something would fly off
a shelf. My father was a boy scout leader. He had a bag
full of feathers he was making headdresses, and one day that bag just picked
up in the air and feathers jumped out everywhere. Another time, he was
at home alone in his bed at night, and there was a closet in
the hallway right next to the bedroom. It had heavy sliding doors, and
the sliding doors would slide, and then he would go out and close the
door, and he'd hear its light again and it would be open again.
And this was very unnerving to him. And this kind of activity years later
I found is common among experiencers. I never knew that this was a part
of it, and in twenty twelve I was able to put that together in
the Commonality study that eighty eight percent of experiencers had had similar events take place
in their homes. Now, I also had a missing time experience while traveling
two hours missing time, and periodically throughout my lifetime I would find these ets
in my room. I had some memories of being taken to the craft looked
for prosaic explanations over and over again. I didn't want to really admit that
this was real, even though I was terrified. After this happened to me
as a teenager. I was afraid of my bedroom closet. I would look
under my bed at night. I was very, very frightened about the whole
thing. But it took me many, many years to come to terms with
all of this and to stop the denial and to realize that it really did
occur. There were marks on my body consistent with marks that are seen by
other experiences. You know, just quite a lot of evidence that I collected
over the years and then discarded or didn't even well. I did keep a
little journal for some of it, but not all of it. Was there
one poignant moment where you realized this is real, this is really happening to
me. Or was it gradual? I have to say that it was gradual.
But in two thousand and twelve I was speaking to a man in Australia,
and this man claimed to have contact with extraterrestrials who had healing powers.
And so, you know, you never know if you should take someone with
a grain of salt, or you know if their claims are real. His
name is Paul Hamden, and I said to Paul, well, I have
a complaint to make to these extraterrests. I felt that they were responsible for
an illness that I had during one event, and that in that one event
there was quite a lot of evidence that something went wrong. And I said,
will you tell them to come heal me? Because I'm tired of being
ill, and so I didn't expect anything to happen. Four nights later,
I was taken and there was a process, and I had memories of this
and I have not been ill with that illness ever since that date, really,
but that was confirmation to me that, you know, this is real.
I know that it's not pathological. The fact that I'm not ill anymore,
you know, and it was a recurring illness and I have not had
it ever since that night, So that was really confirmation to me that,
boy, this is real. And didn't something similar happen to you to your
aunt a healing event? Yes, actually, when she was suffering from cancer,
when she was dying and in the last stages of cancer, she had
fallen down and had fractured her arm. She was not well at all.
She had a pancoast tumor in her upper right lung that was squeezing the brachial
nerve and terrible terrible pain and paralysis in one arm. Not in good shape
at all. She had to sit up on the livingram couch in order to
even sleep at night. She couldn't lie down due to the pain. And
on one particular night something occurred and I went to her home at eight o'clock
every morning to be with her for the day. Her daughter was staying with
her in the timeframe that this occurred. I stayed with her some of the
time as well. But on this particular morning things were very unusual. Normally,
when I arrived, both Daddy and and my cousin were dressed, They
had had their breakfast, The house was opened up for the day. All
of the blinds were opened. This particular day, it was not like that
at all. Everything was dark and closed up, and they were still in
their nightgowns. And my cousin came out and said, something really strange happened
here. And Betty had no memory of anything happening. Connie didn't really have
a memory of it either, But we saw changes in both Betty and in
her cat. Her cat, Raisa, was Betty's constant companion, always sat
beside her or on her lap, but this cat, for one solid week
completely avoided Betty. She looked like she was terrified of her, and if
she did enter that living room, she would skirt the perimeter of it up
against the wall. She looked very nervously at Betty, and she spent most
of her time underneath the bed in the bedroom, which Betty never entered at
that point in time. And also we started to observe changers in Betty's physical
appearance, and we had a medical doctor who looked in on her and recorded
this as well. Her eyes had been sort of very dull and glazed over
all of a sudden they were bright and shiny. She had been very very
ill, and all of a sudden there was an improvement and she seemed to
gain some strength. The fractured arm was very surprising to us because the doctor
said, well that because she smoked and she had cancer, she would that
arm would probably never heal. Uh. It did heal, and it healed
it incredible and incredibly fast rate. Coincidentally, that morning when I when I
arrived, the cast that was on her arm, that was held on by
an ace bandage at that point, had been removed and was neatly folded on
a chair across the room on the other side of the room and certainly out
of Betty's reach, and Betty was not able to walk at that point.
We had no idea how that occurred, but it was very, very strange.
So for a while we just really hoped and prayed that Betty was going
to be completely healed as well. But in the end she was not.
This happened in June of two thousand and four, and she passed away in
October of two thousand and four. So a lot of people don't know that
she continued to have experiences right throughout her life. She would never admit to
that, but as I have looked through her archival collection, the letters that
she wrote, the testimony of other individuals who were with her, it becomes
quite clear that she did have experiences over and over again throughout her lifetime.
Well, and you mentioned that situation where essentially and I wanted to ask more
about this. Some scientists asked her if she could essentially arrange for a sighting
and this happened. Yes. I wrote about this and captured the Betty and
Barney Hill UFO experience. Robert Homan and C. D. Jackson were two
individuals who were on this story. Early on in November of nineteen sixty one,
they interviewed Betty and Barney for the first time. They had heard about
this through Donald Keiho, the director of the National Investigations Committee on Aerial Phenomena,
So they went to Betty's in Barney's home in November of sixty one.
There was very little contact between November of sixty one and the spring of nineteen
sixty four, after Betty and Barney had completed their hypnosis sessions with doctor Simon.
At the end of the sessions, doctor Simon had done counseling with them
to help them to remember and integrate into their consciousness the content of the sessions
of the abduction experience itself, and Betty wrote to Homan and Jackson about this.
Robert Homan was a writer for IBM, and C. D. Jackson
was a senior engineer, so there were scientists that they worked with. Also.
Jacques Valet ended up going to one of the experiments and what Betty would
do is they gave her a script and they would The script would read sort
of, it is the two hundred and forty ninth day of the year,
go to such and such a place. There will be people observing and show
yourself that sort of thing, you will not be harmed. And so Betty
would do that. She used a variety of different scripts. One of those
scripts was to land on the Barrett farm, and I told what happened in
nineteen sixty six April of sixty six. I've written more extensively about that and
captured the Betty and Barney Hill UFO experience. Another experiment that she did was
they had used the word moccasin and she was supposed to send the craft to
peer over Moccasin Street, and they actually did see a craft over Moccasin's Street.
But in the end, even though this occurred, they couldn't say that
it was more than coincidence. They knew that the craft appeared, they could
not say that Betty was responsible for it appearing. But it was a pretty
strange coincidence to me that she would attempt to bring craft in and it actually
showed up. But then, I'm a social scientists, so I suppose that
makes a difference with social science and physical science the level of evidence required and
the type of evidence required, right, Because I mean social scienceists you're looking
for correlations, which can be dangerous because a correlation doesn't necessarily mean one is
another, whereas physical sciences you need hard data that this is a result of
that. Yes, that's absolutely so. There was also an experiment that failed
in nineteen sixty seven Skywatched sixty seven. There were a lot of people there,
including Jacques Valet, and the problem was that Betty said she needed four
months of attempting this contact night after night after night generally to be successful.
That's what her experiments had shown. Now they had acquired funding. The scientific
team had acquired funding and didn't want to wait for the four months. Well,
Betty advised them that, you know, the experiment might not work,
might not be successful, but they pushed for her to do it anyway,
and they gave her very little time in which to do it. And they
did not see a UFO on that particular night, but I think it was
either a night later or a week later, and it's all in captured that
one actually did show up in close proximity to where they were. Do you
think that other experiencers have this ability as well? Some do and some don't.
Well, and it's strange that, you know, and the incident at
the farm and they ended up taking her, her niece, you know,
and possible sister at the same time. And it's just curious that they should
do that, and that it's not the sort of action that seems to be
about creating any sort of relation. It seems to be an action that doesn't
seem to have any concern with you know, communicating, rather more like us
with animals, it's about experimentation. And then you know science, yes,
it was what they do is scientific, that's for sure. Do you do
you have any idea as to do in your communications or ideas research, have
a plan of eventual you know relations? Oh boy, you know, I
don't know if they are how soon there will be open contact. Uh.
They have said that they're they're waiting for mankind to move ahead. On an
evolutionary scale, you might say that human consciousness will change and that we will
be more like them, and you know, we're not generally empathic individuals.
These ets, in my estimation, are empathic. They seem to be able
to feel what humans can feel, and many experiences are empathic as well.
You know, they communicate differently than we do. Their communication is telepathic and
they communicate with humans, oftentimes through downloads of information where you know a lot
of information streams into your consciousness all at once, very rapidly. M So
it could be sometimes we've had a lot of learning to do. Still,
yes, we have a lot of learning to do. And they're very concerned
that if they do this too quickly that there will be very bad results,
that there will be military action by the military on the earth, and that
it could have very bad results from us, because you know, if we
retaliate against them, the possibility that they might fight back and then there would
be massive destruction. Well, I guess my last question would be that I
know there are still a lot about your experiences that you are you are holding
back and you don't want to share everything. Is there a point where you
think you may write a book or you may begin to talk about your own
experiences. I'm not sure you know. I do this. I'm speaking on
a very limited basis. Now. I'm hoping for more communication with them,
because now that I have finally lost that feeling of being scared silly, I'm
able to communicate more. The only problem is it's been two years since I've
had any contact. If I have more contact, and if they give me
more information, I intend to share it with other people. Well, thank
you so much for being on the show again. We're pretty much out of
time and it's fun. I'm looking at the events coming up, and it's
always great that you and I get to be at a lot of the same
events. So in a couple of weeks, you'll be at the UFO Congress
here in Arizona. Then we'll be at Contact in the Desert together in May,
and then are we spend the fourth of July weekend together for the last
few years in Roswell, New Mexico, So we'll be seeing each other again.
You've got a lot of conferences coming up, but are you do you
have a book in the works as well. I'm working on a new book
very slowly. It's requiring a tremendous amount of research, and it's not about
abductions this time. It's not a whole new topic. I'm not at liberty
to say what it's about, Okay, So there's more books to come,
and of course everybody can find out more about you and your work at Kathleen
Dashmartin dot com. That is correct. It's m A R D E.
N. Mardin all right, great, and of course we'll have a link
on our website and on this show. But thank you so much, which
it's been a pleasure. Well, thanks for having me. Good to talk
to you again. All right, thank you so much Kathleen for being on
the show. As you know, as we talked about, you can go
to Kathleen dash Martin or just google her to find her website and read about
all of her books. Or come to the UFO Congress because she'll be there
with Stanton Friedman selling her books and signing them and answering any questions you may
have. Very excited to see her of course the UFO Congress. This is
the last show until the Congress. Go to Ufocongress dot com to see more
about that, or Openminds dot tv. I've talked for months now about all
of the great guests, so you can go online to read more about that.
Hopefully we'll see you there, all of you who are there. I'm
sure you're excited, So am I come and say hello to Jason, Maureen
and I and all of our other cool people who will be helping us out
there. So it's going to be a ton of fun. Also, we
did post a new spacing out that'll be the last one before the Congress as
well, where he talked about some of this news and some other stuff,
so really cool stuff. Jason did an interview with a guy who's made a
movie, and we also have some interviews with some sci fi geeks talking about
aliens. It's a lot of fun, so check that out open Minds dot
tv you'll find all of this stuff. Thank you to Caleb Hags who did
the open and closed music. You could go to the radio page to find
a link to his music that he posts for free. It's awesome stuff,
and thank you to you all for listening. We will talk to you soon,
hopefully see you at the Congress. Until then, audio some mood duchos,
your motions sound the glass of Erring