Made a decision o pas Sonny someone on I had vision nice night. So
what's up, everybody. It's for crying out loud and it I have special
co hosts in studio because Stephanie Wilder Taylor, our girl, is out on
the road in New York City promoting her new book, Drunkish Out on TUESA
out today, so check it out. She's doing the Drew Barrymore Show.
But I have special guests in studio, my old pal Patrick Hickey, great
to be here, Bad TV, and Kate Casey. So she's gonna dish
on all reality stuff everybody, Like you know, we've been talking about reality
TV documentaries and welcome Kate, thank you, thanks for having me. Glad
to be back. Oh, thank you for coming back. We always love
talking trash TV. Speaking of trash, I wouldn't call it Drew Barrymore trash
TV. But she famously does eight minute segments on how to clean red wine
out of bed sheets. I'm not sure she does. Oh yeah, oh
god, Stephanie. It takes eight minutes. She eats up like a quarter
of her show. Yeah yeah, she's done like twenty them. She doesn't
with like you know, all famous people like, hey, how do you
She asked them how they clean wine out of their sheets? She's fine,
yeah, what do you do? What happens if she asks them on that
and they're like an alcoholic, Well maybe we'll find out. So that's what
Stephanie's there for. There you go. So we were emailing each other last
night talking about I mean, so much stuff to watch, that so much
all been watching. I don't even know where to begin, but Kate,
you mentioned I don't know wherever if you have something you want to start with,
or some TV shows docs. Yeah, Well, I am a person
who gets very obsessed with things and then I consume them and then I let
them go. And that's why I'm kind of the best person to tell everybody
kind of what to watch as the weeks go on, because I feel like,
what I'm going to curate a list for everybody of what to watch that
week that they can be obsessed with and then they have no choice but to
move on because there's gonna be something that, you know, pops up the
following week. So I know that you guys have talked about it before,
but I was obsessed for a while with Love Has Won. But this week
there is going to be a documentary that that is out on the seventeenth and
it's called American Nightmare. And this is going to be your new obsession because
it's made by the same producers as Tinder Swindler. Oh yeah, So if
you like true crime stuff, this is right up your alley. So the
backstory is this, this couple lives in Vallejo, California. They go to
bed one night and they're awoken at three am by home invader. They you
know, cover their eyes. There's a pre recorded message playing. They can
tell that there's like a gun almost like a gun to their head and the
message says you we're like he puts earphones on them and for the air,
and the guy he says, I'm going to give you a drug you aren't
and then when you wake up, you're going to be in a like a
like a delineated square with red duct tape. You cannot leave that because there
is a camera that is watching you. And if you leave that before something
like twelve hours, she will be killed because I'm going to take her and
if you if you call the police before then, I will cut her face.
So he's drugged. He wakes up from you know, after the drugs
have worn off, he's in this square. He finally calls police. He
says, my girlfriend is gone, and the police are sort of like,
this sounds like an absurd situation. Well, Denise is gone for two days,
but then she reappears South Huntington Beach and she says, I was abducted.
There were several people in you know that came and were part of this
intricate caper, and I was sexually assaulted twice. And the Vale Jill Police
Department went out into the media, did a press statement, the lead you
know, chief or something, and they said, uh, this is a
hoax. They've made up this whole story, and they're actually, you know,
they've they've basically taken resources from this our city and this is a complete
hoax. Weeks later, Matthew Mueller is arrested for another event, and when
they go to arrest him, they find all this equipment in his South Lake
Tahoe cottage and they find a computer that's tied to Denise Hoskins. So now
it is revealed it was not a hoax, it was real, and it
kind of is a window into how the American media, specifically once they branded
someone some way, it is near impossible for them to erase that like that
imagery. So people, in fact, the Vallejo Police Department at the time,
compared her to the Gone Girl, the twenty twelve book, which was
made into a movie starring Rosamund Pike and Ben Affleck. So she was branded
as this like hoaxer, this gone girl, when in fact she had been
kidnapped and sexually assaulted, and they went through this horribly traumatic experience. And
so over three episodes, not only do they interview the couple, they also
interview the police officer who was the one who figured out that this man,
Matthew Muller, who had been arrested for something else, was the same person
that had kidnapped this woman from Vallejo, California. And they include the interrogation
videos, which are very difficult to watch because from the beginning they're like,
you're making this up. You're making this up. The ones with Aaron,
and you also get to see all the footage when they arrested Matthew, and
they go over all the equipment and when he did and essentially he'd been using
a drone to spy on them, and then when he was arrested. He
said, I had like a mental breakdown. I feel really regretful. Oh.
Also, after the Lejo Police Department said we think this is a hoax,
he wrote an anonymous email to the media to Henry lee Is, a
reporter at San Francisco Chronicles, saying we did it, meaning he said like
there were a bunch of us, which is not true. It was just
one person. We did it, and this was not a hoax, and
we feel really regretful about what we did. It's like a whole crazy sequence
of events. So you know how you're obsessed with Tindler Swindler, This is
like that, but even more, especially if you love true crime stuff.
But it's like a justice issue. And the great thing is that couple ended
up getting married and they have a family now. But my god, that
experience and they just walk you through every single step, it's wild. I'm
in. I'm so in. So it does sound like an American nightmare for
sure. Now, Kate, I remember that story in the news and it's
yeah, he's mystery, Okay. So it's funny that you bring this up,
and you bring up also the concept that it's just engraved in your brain.
The news conference and then the story ends there. As far as the
public, you never go the never It's just another case of that. Do
you guys remember the boy in the balloon? A little boy, uh,
basically jumped in a balloon that his father made and then everyone was chasing around
and it turned out that the dad wanted to be a reality TV star.
Okay, so what do you remember about that story? That's it? I
remember that the dad you want to be a star? Yeah, the dad
was just parton last year from the governor of Denver that it was. They
actually went back and what really got him was the family went on CNN and
the little boy had said, well, I went to the balloon, Daddy
told me to go in the balloons for reality TV or something to that effect,
and we all just jumped on that twenty second clip and then we went
after that family and the guy like was unemployable for like eight years because it
just hung over his head. But anyway, sorry, different type story,
but the same idea, the same thing of the just creating a narrative and
then just sticking with it. I I interviewed the producers there on my show
on Tuesday, and I asked, what is the one thing that's like haunted
you most about this, and they said it's two things. One the idea
of a home invasion is probably the worst thing that could ever happen to you.
Yeah, and then of course feeling like your truth is not being accepted
and having someone completely dismantle your persona and you have no control over it.
Kate in this doc, does it really? Because the one thing about the
Tinder swindler is you just love that everyone's we're slowly getting in on this guy,
and it's kind of fulfilling at the end when they I mean, I
don't think he got arrested, but at least he got called out for all
his you know, well the one yeah to your point or a question yes,
because in the end, this is what I liked about that the project
they did for Tinders, when the women really had the strongest voices at the
end. It's similar to this where Denise is a force, the woman who
was kidnapped and her husband's completely supportive. She's a force. And then the
police officer that kind of put all this two together because they've arrested Matthew Muller.
They're going through his things and she's like, wait, this looks like
a fake gun, and there's all this equipment, and she saw a string
of blonde hair and she said that, like what is this? So of
course they kept the blonde hair and it stayed with her like there's something else
going on here, and it was her putting all the pieces together. So
she was kind of like the hero of the story too. So at the
end you get to see those two meet. Oh wow, gotcha, and
then you're like, yeah, I mean the woman who was the police officer
was tireless, and it just so happened that she was working that day and
they asked her, do you want to go with this on this arrest?
And she got in the car. I had that not happened, we would
have perhaps still believed that Denise had made the whole thing up. Wow wow,
I blame Sherry Pipe and Pip and whatever. PI. Yeah, no,
no, we believe her. We bring that I bring up with them
too, Like that's the problem, I said, also the American public,
where we expect such salacious stories, like it was more fascinating the idea of
somebody committing a hoax than the reality that someone could have broken into a couple's
home and watched them like that is too much for people. The truth also
kind of it makes you remember the Golden State Killer, because that's what he
would do your head. And yeah, do you know I interviewed his neighbor.
This woman reached out to me and she said that she said, I
realized in retrospect that he was my neighbor. And she said that when they
were kids, like hurt their cat, like their animals kept up showing up
dead. It's like he would yell at all the neighbors like shut your kids
up. And then her she said, her mom screamed over the fence.
If you like kids, you shouldn't have lived in a neighborhood with kids.
Next day they find their cats dead. Yeah, that's so creepy. Can
I ask you, guys if you've seen a doc called Daniel on HBO Max.
I think I did not, but I put it on my list and
I watch clips of it. I didn't watch it that week because I felt
like it was going to be too heavy. Tell me, did you cry
your face off? I did? And you know, I generally don't like
to watch docs that are gonna, I guess, quote unquote bum me out,
but this one was actually inspiring, and if we're making recommendations, I
highly recommend the documentary Daniel. It's an hour and fifteen minutes. I tend
to like short ones, therefore I can get them in one seating, you
know, because I have two kids, and anyway it is, it makes
you appreciate being alive and in a real way. I think the focus of
the doc this guy named Daniel who teaches English to students around the world,
and he filmed all of it and all his travels. He went to forty
two countries and he's just so pure. It's I feel like I have this
burama where I can read people with bullshit and I just I really connected with
this person. I don't want to give too much away, but I'll say
there's a couple of little twists and turns in it, and just don't watch
the trailer. Just watch that HBO Max. Really I'll watch it because I
love not wanting. I don't like to know really too much. I just
want to dive into the dock and dive in. But yeah, there's just
been I know what we've already talked ad nauseum. I don't know if you
guys have about the Italian Grace. That's the one that just sticks in my
brain so much. But I'm just curious, Kate, if you have any
I mean, not a little spoiler alert, but anything about maybe what season
three is going to be like, if you know anything about it at all.
I don't know, but I'm friends with the Shannon Evangelista, who is
the pre and she was she was chasing that story for a while, and
you all credit to her. She has been so tenacious in telling this whole
story, and it's so complicated, and she said she's always surprised at like
there's always some sort of development to it. I will say, watching all
of it, I think that it's really a story about several terrible people.
Like there's not one person that you like exactly, yes, which is what
it makes it captivating. And I don't believe one person's truth. Yeah,
I am with you. It's like I don't know where the truth lies,
maybe somewhere in the middle. And I find myself like having not a lot
of sympathy for this girl for some reason. I do in some ways,
but now I don't know. I don't I think she's a sociopathic yeah,
I think, Yeah, I think she's diabolical, And when when they show
the footage of her being adopted, and like, these idiots. First of
all, they're adopting an adult, like you've been scammed hardcore. Of course,
it would be like a past or two. And so when at the
end, when there's this reveal that they that they're that they think she's awful,
I thought, well, hello, did you meet her? You know
online you see support for both sides, and as we're pointing out here,
it truly is great. They they're they're good and bad in both their stories.
So it's hard to root for anybody in like the simplest form of trying
to establish where you where you stand when you're watching this story unfold. I
think one thing you could lean towards Natalie is just her upbringing, because you
feel you feel for her, and she may have kind of developed these bad
skills of manipulation based on her need to survive kind of given her circumstances.
One issue I have with that doctor, do we ever find out from that
adoption agency in Florida who was behind that? Because that's the same question,
Well, I have to tell you I did this other what happened to baby
Gabriel? Did you guys watch this? No, I told you about it,
Lenna. I think I told you about it, And it was like
there was this adoption, it was like a black market adoption in San Antonio,
and you're trying to figure out what actually happened to him, right?
It makes it made me realize and I thought about that. What I was
watching to tell you, Grace, is that we'll never really know because there
is I think if we all have this assumption that every adoption agency is on
the up and up, and then it's like all these docs are revealing that
there's this total underbelly, I don't know we'll ever find the truth. There's
such shady people right right right. The Gabriel story is not the one for
the little boy in Los Angeles that his mother and her boyfriend abused him.
Is that No, this one was the boy that was born in Arizona and
the parents never married, and she would get angry at the birth father all
the time. He was supposed to pick the boy up for visiting. And
he gets to the trailer and the mother and the child are gone. She
calls him once he keeps calling, where's baby Gabriel? And she says I've
given him away. I found a family and he's been adopted. Well,
we do know that she drove to San Antonio. We do know that she
stayed in a hotel there. It happens to be in a spot where there's
black market adoptions, and she did stay in the same hotel where people come
and they do these illegal adoptions, and they don't pay through cash, they
pay through a good. So she shows up in Florida because now the police
are trying to find where this woman is and the baby. When they find
her in Florida, she's got a ruby ring in her pocket, so that
would also possibly be a possibility that she had done some some sort of exchange.
She says vehemently. I met with a couple in a park in San
Antonio. It was arranged through a third party. I didn't ask the couple's
name because if I had asked that name, I would have gone back to
try maybe find him. So I wanted it just to be like, please
take him. I'm overwhelmed. And there was this other woman that she'd friended.
She probably, I think, had something to do with it. But
she claims she has no idea what happened to the baby. So it's all
these people that are like, we have no idea what happened. My assessment
from AFAR, using my degree in armchair psychology, is that the baby was
illegally adopted and Gabriel is out there somewhere. But there's there was speculation that
maybe she was so enraged by the boyfriend who wouldn't give her the attention,
and she also had attachment issues and I think maybe addiction issues that she may
have killed the baby. I don't think she killed the baby. I think
Gabriel is with a family. He has no idea he was illegally adopted.
I agree with you. I watched that doc is fascinating. Yeah, I
think, yeah he is. I'm hoping he is, like he just you
know, living and thriving somewhere. But yeah, should we take a quick
break and then we'll come back and we'll talk some more reality TV and docs.
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with reality Reality Life with Kate Casey and Patrick from Bad TV, Bad TV,
And so we were talking about docs. Are we good with some docks?
Do you have any other? Pat I have a couple because I like
to stump Kate because she is the expert. So I want to see if
she's seen some and so I have to go deep, like ten years back
to probably stump her. Oh this is like a real test. Okay,
okay, this is an amazing documentary and it's from ten years ago. It's
called Let the Fire Burn. Have you seen that documentary. You've talked about
it to me. I have not watched it, but you taught you.
That is one thing that I feel like has really stayed with you because you
have brought it up several times. It's something about because children were in jeopardy
in the dock and being a dad. Those are the things that really hit
home to me. So just a little bit about it. So in nineteen
eighty five, a building, an apartment building, had essentially been taken over
by a cult slash radical group called Move And oh wait, this is about
Philadelphia. Yes, no, I know. I'm from Philly, so you
know this story. It is a heart heart wrenching story. This was when
this happened. When I tell you, every person in Philadelphia was sitting in
front of their television watching this all happen. This is like very painful for
the people of Philly. Oh absolutely. So it's all archival footage sewn together
and it feels like it's just a straight through narrative. It's done so well
it pulls at all your heart strings. Eventually, at the tail end of
the movie, the city takes very aggressive actions against this building that actually had
built on top of the apartment building almost like a gun, like a tarret.
Is that what you call it? Like to kind of they have.
Yeah, So they had a helicopter fly over the building and drop literally drop
a bomb on it, and they did it on live television. We watched
it on live television. The mayor was famously quoted saying, let the fire
burn. Yes, it's right, so brave cops. You know, there's
good and bad cops. There were some good cops that day that are literally
running into the building while it's burning and grabbing children out of it. Yeah,
highly recommend this stock. I don't know where you can find it.
It's probably it's definitely playing somewhere. You can find it. Just look it
up. But what's it called again, Let the fire burn? Wow?
What year is this? Nineteen eighty five? May thirteenth, nineteen eighty five.
Because everybody kind of looked at them like these weird hippies. Yeah,
they were vegans and but they I mean, they were very aggressive in the
neighborhood. They had retrofitted a loud speaker on the outside of the apartment and
they would just shout things as people there was guns in there. I mean
there was a reason to go in there, it's just how they went about
it. Well, it's like David Koresh's Waco. Yeah, I mean,
like the sequence of events is what's heartbreaking, right right, And just so
the audience is aware, it's you can stream it on Canopy whatever that is.
Otherwise you'd have to rent it on Apple TV, thank you. Okay,
Okay, anything else for docs because I haven't been so I've watched all
the docks pretty much that everybody's talking about, but I like to hear about
these ones, okay overnight, I don't think so, Okay, this one's
amazing. So there was a movie that's kind of turned into a cult classic
over the years called Boone Docks Saints. I think they made a sequel.
The director was this guy named Troy Duffy, So he's from someone from the
East Coast, came out here, wrote a script. Before you know what,
Harvey Weinstein thinks it's the best script that should be made. He buys
the bar where Troy works at and says, now we can be co owners.
And then somehow lets this guy who's never directed a film basically say he's
going to helm his own film called Boone dock Staints. This part of the
Ben Affleck and Matt Damons that was Project own Light, Project Greenlight. Yeah,
different, but it was kind of around the same time. So this
Troy guy could not be more obnoxious. He they give him a record deal
at the same time with his horrible band with his friends. He blows through
all the money and it's being filmed by this doc that they use the footage
by like the bass player and the drummer of his band. He doesn't know
that they're actually secretly thinking there's a documentary here about a guy who's been given
like the golden keys to Hollywood and how he squanders it. It's I love
that hat this but he but was he doing something for Weinstein? In retrospect
that there's like a kickback because why in the world would Weinstein invest in somebody
with no professional background. Everyone was fighting for the script. It was like
during that period. I remember that period of time, like in the late
nineties when it was like this is going to be and it was kind of
like independent film had started long before that, but it seemed like that was
the heyday, like who's going to be the next Tarantino? And then once
you got dubbed that everybody was fighting for you. And then you you know,
a bunch of movies got made during that period. They were turned out
to be horrible. You know, why did this guy you know get to
twenty million dollars for his horrible script? But anyway, Overnight, if you
like to see someone get their come up and after they've been given, you
know, an opportunity and squander it, Overnight's your doctor. Mike Aboka also
Boon Dock Saints is a great kind of cult classic movie with Norman Ritis and
Willem Dafoe are both in it. But if you want to watch the doc
overnight, you could stream on Roku to be fubo. Otherwise you got to
runt it on Amazon, Apple TV. Okay, wow, did you ever
watch Holy Hell Love Holy I think yes. I've seen so many docs about
churches, about church cults about it. Yeah, and so refresh my memory
about well what Holy Hell is the one where his name was like Heimi,
but he changed his name to Michelle and he made everybody move to a commune
in Texas and they all all kind of worked together. But he'd have these
like minions that would cut up his fruit into the shape of a star and
then he'd like yell at them and throw it in the trash can. He
was like very controlling. He wanted everyone to be celibate, but apparently he
was assaulting male members. But the biggest, weirdest part about it was they
had to spend congregants, had to spend hours practicing ballet and put on a
performance of whatever. And of course the cult leader is the lead of the
ballet, and there's no audience because they all have to participate. So I
just that was like through me for a loop. I was like, I've
known a lot of cults and study them. Never that had to be forced
into ballet. Absolutely crazy, all right. I have a similar dog.
It's called The Source Family, where the cult leader father and one Father Yod.
He required his cult members to be in his band. Yes, and
of course, because you're a cult leader, it's you know, you have
to have sex with members of your os always, yeah, Father Yod.
In the Source Family, it's an interesting doc. It's not unlike Holy Hell,
except the members of that cult still when they interview them, still have
kind words to say about Father Yod. The fun part of the doc too,
is how Father Yod is no longer with us, and also where everybody
ended up after being in that cult. Some are CEOs of major companies.
Now, Wow, Father Yacht is Father Yod and his restaurant because he had
a vegetarian restaurant in the sixties. Where they all kind of met up is
where the Baja Cantena is on Ventura Boulevard. Very nice. Yeah, okay,
yeah, you can stream that one for free on Amazon right now.
There you go. Wow, all right, now, I'm going to hand
it over to the expert. I'll shut up. Well, let's talk a
little reality TV. Now. I don't know you guys, and nobody's watching
ninety Day Fiance stuff. I'm watching Single Life. But there's eighteen verse of
that show. I'm exhausted and a lot of it. I feel like it
depresses me because some of these people's lives. I just think it's sad.
I can appreciate some of you know, our friends that make a damn good
living out of recapping it, but you you have to. You can't have
a full time job and keep up with Matt Sharp's offerings. Yeah, I
mean, I know there's a lot of it, but there's this one.
There's this one woman on single Life, which she started off on the ninety
day Fiance. I'm talking about Natalie with the blonde, curly hair, who
she's a star, is a movie star, and everybody's in love with her.
And she walks down the street as if she's got cameras following her and
snapping her picture and fans adoring her everywhere. I mean, she is so
full of herself. It's it's delusional, and but I've always been so fascinating.
I kind of like her at her Ukrainian accent, you know, she's
she was. She she was married to Mike from squeam Squeamish or something.
Yeah, scream, she calls it Washington wherever the fuck. Well, now
she's out in Los Angeles with Josh, a softcore porn producer. Is that
what that sounds right? That sounds right, that's brand. So actually I
have some inside intel, so he actually is part of a whole scam business.
It's that one of those modeling agencies where you sign your teenage daughters up
and it's you know, twenty five hundred dollars and he's supposed to get you
connected with agents and then take the photographs and all that he's in one of
those basises. Yeah, it means shady is what it is. Shady and
he's dating her because he wants to be on TV. Obviously he doesn't give
a shit. Aboh no, and then none of those people want anything to
do with them outside of television. Now. When I moved to La,
I remember there was a girl that went missing from the Century City Mall,
which was where my office was right behind it, and it was he would
she was murdered because the guy was pretending to be like a modeling scout.
Oh I remember that photographer, didn't he Yeah, he said he was a
photographer. Yah. Yeah, and I think he dumped her body off moholland
drive down. Yes, that's right, I remember that too. Yeah,
it's scary. Modeling is a scary business. Well I don't know now,
but it's because there's no real agencies to protect models. Like actors, there's
SAG, there's AFTRA, you know, for modeling, there's no there's no
agencies for protection you know. Well, think anybody could be and also just
that power dynamic. There was the Abercrombie and Fitch doc where these young male
models were being had sex with the photographer and also some of the executives there.
Yeah, it's just right, yeah yeah. So for reality TV,
h what are you watching, Kate? I mean, what's just your okay?
So lately I've been obsessed with Real Houses of Salt Lake City. And
here's why. If no one has been watching, if you haven't been watching,
here's why you should care. Because for the first in Real Housewives franchise
history, and lord knows I've been watching the show since nineteen sixty two,
that it was inevitable to happen, there's a cast member who would In the
beginning of the season, You're like, how does this make sense? They
don't have money, their lives, their life does not intersect with any of
these women, with the exception that a woman who had been a cast member
had committed telemarketing fraud and was sent to prison. And the only connection that
this woman, this new cast member has to them is that Jen who's no
longer on the show. She was her unpaid assistant for a short period of
time, and she claims to have given federal authorities like tipping them off,
which I believe now in retrospect, is probably bullshit. So that was the
only connection, and at that I was like, so you were an unpaid
assistant for somebody who's not even on the show anymore. Well, I think
what happened was she used that as currency to get her foot in the door,
probably with producers in the network, is that Jen was going off to
prison. Viewers were very interested in that story, and I think at that
moment they thought, Okay, well, this is a way to kind of
like maybe keep that conversation about what this woman did in order to be sent
to prison. So what happened was that this woman was actually a troll.
She was so obsessed with the show from the very beginning, would like drive
past their houses. She saw working for Jen Shaw as an opportunity for herself
to get in the door. And while she was working for Jen in an
unpaid assistant position, she was getting information on each of the housewives, because
Jen's the kind of person she'd be. You know, she would get all
the information on you and then use it against you at a later date.
So she gets her foot in the door to the Housewives. They film the
whole season. People are trying to get to know her. She's giving the
bullshit story about our mom's like a horrible mother that she Oh, she also
had an affair with her brother in law for eighteen months. She's telling you
all these stories. The viewing public is pretty much like, Wow, this
woman's captivating. From the beginning, it was like she's lying. There's something
off here. While you cut to the end of the season and you find
out that she had been at the helm of this troll account, not a
very successful troll account, but had been posting things about all of the cast
members. She has since deleted anything having to do with anyone, with the
exception of Jen, because of course she was hired to be on the show,
so she's trying to cover her tracks a little bit. But by the
end of it, one of the cast members figures it all out, and
it's like a big, big little eyes kind of moment where they're at the
beach on a trip and the ogs get together and they're like, this woman
that we have had to invest in because of course she's in a cast member
fourth wall, she's actually the person at the helm of this troll account,
and then they're all like, what do you mean. So now when you
watch the reunion, you get to see like a kind of unravel of the
degree to which she was trolling them. I think it's horrible for the future
for housewives. I think a lot of you are like amped up by it,
but I think it's it's gonna make it hard to kind of first of
all, she can't be on the show ever again. But also I think
it's gonna make people far less trusting of one another. And they're kind of
untrusting already, but like even worse. And also she basically is like laughing
at everybody like I got on the show, like suck it, yes,
and that kind of like zero fox, like she just doesn't give a shit
and she does anything to lose. I just all you gotta do is I
I didn't want I watched. I know who the people are, but I've
never I didn't watch this season and then't need to. I think you did
the right thing by just jumping in watching the finale episode. Yeah, and
that's and then I watched the the reunion. I think there's only one.
That's all you needed. Yeah, you got the whole thing. Yeah.
Oh, so that's all you have to do. And it is filled with
drama, like I didn't believe it was. So this is her account was
reality votees or somethontees. Yeah, but when you looked on it, I
mean I found about this about a week and a half before the finale,
so I looked on it. The account, first of all, still exists,
which is weird to me, Like, wouldn't she delete it? Wouldn't
she be so embarrassed? No, she didn't delete it because she's emboldened by
this now because they're lunatics that are like, you're an icon, You're a
legend, You're in the moment, like all of this, and she is
thinking that she is the biggest superstar of the world, although I think that
as the reunion parts go on, people are like, I think I've had
enough. I think I've had enough. Well, she she's like one of
those people who will destroy anyone's life and has no scruples. Unfortunately with reality
TV, though we don't, we reward bad behavior. So she's just made
sure she'll be on the next seasons of Villains or whatever for the next Versus
All Stars. But you know what I what I'm waiting for and what I
really want to know from the reunion is at at what rate were the women
who were all all the other cast members communicating with the troll account, because
while now they're kind of like we've been violated, we're so hurt. I
believe that the problem that we're happening with a lot of these Housewives franchises is
that the cast members are trying to play a side game, like a parasocial
game, where they try to sabotage one another. And I think that that's
going to be revealed, and I think it's going to make it very hard
for people to trust the process of the Housewives, which we've experienced in the
past, Like these are complicated women. This is how their lives intersect,
This is like a window into their life. Now it seems just so overtly
survivor ish that I think it's I think the people of Bravo are probably like,
we're fucked. Wow. Interesting. By the way, did you know
Lynette was being vetted to be on Real House We didn't know that. Yeah
you did? Did? How come you didn't do it? I mean now,
not for me. I'm very like being on this podcast now, I'm
just kidding. I don't know. Now, it just seemed it was well,
first of all, I'm not a house that doesn't matter. You know
that everybody in Beverly Hills lives in Encino. Yeah, I don't know.
I just it was it's too like it's too much of privacy, you know,
exposed. Just I just don't. Here's what I don't understand about casting
in a metropolitan city where you have wealth and friend groups, why does Bravos
struggle to get five women that inter sect with one another and have those real
relationships. Now on the other end, I hate New Jersey because they basically
have it circled around a family. Well not so much anymore. Yeah,
and I don't. I don't like that dynamic. But I do like when
they know each other, and it's always weird to me when they force the
relationships. I kind of fell off a little bit. I forget what season
it was, but when Gina on Orange County came on, Kate's probably friends
with her. Yeah, No, I'm not. I'm not. I think
that the problem is that and I experience. I live in Orange County,
and I I into them some I should say some of them, because most
of them they don't actually live near each other. Their lives do not intersect.
So the problem that I've had with Orange County for a long time is
especially living here is that it doesn't tell the accurate story of Orange County.
Orange County is like the coastal cities of Laguna, Newport, Coasta, Mesa,
Huntington Beach. It's a very weird thing where if you're an outsider,
you're not really accepted. Like everybody went to the same high school. They
went to USC, they were in fraternity together, they work in packs,
like it's a very normal thing in Orange County where I live. To go.
Oh, I went on a trip to Palm Springs with fourteen other couples
and we had matching trucker hats that said Mermaid on them. Like it's a
pack mentality and it's near impossible to infiltrate as an outsider. That to me
is a very specific Orange County story. They don't tell it. They have
had the same people for so long that when I talk to women here,
even if they said to me, that sounds like something I'd like to do.
However, I don't want to be on a show with x X like
these people because I have nothing in common with them. I would want to
be on a show with my friends. So then I go to castiy and
I'll say, okay, like this past season, I said, there are
two women who live in town who are so dynamic. They have the lifestyle,
the personalities, and they didn't even look at them. They didn't even
look at them. They are trying to find people that fit a certain It's
like they have in their mind what that persona is and they look to try
to fit it and at the expense of like it doesn't even if that person
has nothing to do with the others. You have to have people that their
lives intersect, because that's when real storytelling happens. If you have people that
are not connected at all, it's like just hiring actors, right, Yeah,
it's like that. I thought they learned a little bit early on when
they have someone like Carlton On who her entire storyline was going to sex toy
stores, right, yeah, remember her? I remember because I think at
the time they were like, oh, she's kind of like avant garde,
like she's going to push the envelope, which I mean, yes, But
you know what would be more interesting if after three seasons you find out that,
like somebody is married and they have like there is like actually a closet
swinger, but they go to church every Sunday and their kids go to Christian
school. Like that is more compelling because you've invested in someone's personal story,
and then you want to see how the others react to this realization that their
friend they thought they knew is living a completely different life. That is more
interesting and better storytelling them taking plucking someone from obscurity who has always desired to
be a television star and throwing them into, you know, a show.
It makes no sense. Yeah, I agree. Did did you watch the
you guys watch the New York Housewives? I did? Yeah, it's good.
Yeah it was nothing happened, but it's that's okay. Yeah, nothing
happened, but I don't know. My eyes were glued that women were so
beautiful and their lives I thought their lives were in They're very beautiful, but
boring. The one to watch of all the Real Housewives right now is the
Real Housewives of Miami. Because they're all actually friends. They'd have a backstory,
right They all are far more open about their lives. One is in
the midst of a divorce when she married this disgusting, skeezy plastic surgeon,
and that story unravels. There are some moments where you're like, well,
I can see why you divorced her, Like you're going back and forth,
back and forth. You have another one who's going through cancer treatments, which
you know, it's unbelievable to me that after all these seasons, less women
have spoken about their health issues, which is a very typical thing of a
women of a certain age. You have another woman who is trying to have
a baby. You have another one who's married to Martina and Abertilova, and
that alone, like there's every person on that show has an interesting story.
Alexia Etcheveria this is her third marriage. One of her husbands was like the
cocaine king of Miami, and she's a Cuban woman. And then you get
to watch like the intricacies of the little nuances of like what it's like to
be a Cuban mother. And the city's beautiful, their homes are unbelievable,
their outfits are wild. But they're all friends and they care about each other.
And the most specific example of that is when Lisa, the one I
mentioned, is going through a divorce, they're on a trip and she says,
I've found out Lenny is having an affair, and they all scream like
animals in the wild burstings that happen on another franchise, because the other one
would be like, well yeah, because you know, because you're a jerk.
Of course, those women like they rise up, they're like I will
cut somebody and like, but that's women, Like, that's how women are.
They rally around. That's true. Let's take a quick break and we'll
talk some more reality TV. This episode of for Crying Out Loud is sponsored
by Better Help. Listen. Everybody, you could use therapy. We've all
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dot com slash fcol And we're back. So we were gonna talk about Paris
Hilton. I didn't give two shits about Paris Hilton twenty four hours ago,
but then when you brought it up in the email, I was like,
you know what, I see it Paris and Love. I never click on
it because I just think it's just Paris and a floridare oh right? So
I started watching it and now it's like I can't wait to get back home
to watch finish watching jealous that you have that feeling right now? Yes,
it's And I just jumped in because I was like, okay, I'm going
to start with season let me just see what goes on season two. Like
I know the first season is a lot about the wedding, but I want
to see, like the baby baking process, what hapened like because I didn't
remember her being pregnant. Now I know why, you know, So it's
it is fascinating. The most fascinating part is her mother. Oh yes,
how so bless you, Kaylin, how she is so uh, I mean
beyond narcissistic, like this wedding's my wedding too, you know, and the
fact it's just there's a lot going on. So I'm going to start from
the beginning of season one and work my way through. But I have a
question. How how many episodes in a season. I think they're about maybe
seven or eight. But I want to tell you this, You're going to
run through it. And this is a great show for couples to watch too,
because I think that the men will be perplexed by the husband, the
women are going to be perplexed by her relationship with her mother and sister,
and then Paris's relationship with herself. There are so many layers to it it
could be like a college course. And season one, when you watch it,
you're sort of trying to figure out why she is with this guy,
Carter, who seems to be a super fan, and the way he talks
to her sometimes is very unsettling. It's almost like he talks to her like
a child. He'll say things like I'm just so proud of you, like
I'm married, I've memory my husband to say so. And also he was
a Bridezilla. So there's that. The thing you have to look for is
the episode in season one wait for it and will you will treasure this episode
when she goes back to Michigan to meet his family, because you know,
and there's a moment where you're like, Okay, she thinks they're batshit crazy,
but she's pretending, And then she calls her sister to kind of laugh
about it. Who hasn't done that when they met their in laws, where
you're like, I got to call somebody and go, oh my god,
these weirdos. So some of it's relatable that way, but then you're also
looking through the lens of like I believe we're all cultural anthrobologists. You're looking
through the lens of this. His family is trying so hard to equally present
themselves as a normal family, and it's almost like they're trying to act like
they're the Hiltons of the Midwest, and he's trying to convince her like we
should have a vacation home here in Traverse City, and she's like okay,
like you're kidding, right, Like I'm like parasolant. Then you get to
season two, and well, I should also note there's relatable things, but
then she's so unrelatable because you know, she grew up with Nanni's and there's
all this other stuff where you're like, you've got to remind yourself constantly,
like why would we expect anything other than craziness. So season two begins with
finding out that was a secret surrogacy and unpacking why did she keep that a
secret, unpacking why it's so difficult for her to kind of seem to get
like the hang, the swing of being a parent, her mother's obvious concern
that this is something that she's not going to take seriously because I think she's
had a series of animals that disappear all the time, moving from one thing
to the next. There's so many layers to it. I mean, you
could sit for fifteen hours and talk about it and everybody picks something different from
it. It's wildly entertaining. So O, Kate, the reason I didn't
jump on this, and this could be how we started this podcast with coming
a little judgment for me because I'd seen in news stories that Paris's husband had
when he was courting her. He had that's correct, a baby out of
a woman or a girlfriend was pregnant with his first baby, really, and
he was refusing to acknowledge it. You know he has that's another layer,
but you get but when you go through season one, you're like, that
to me is like a true crime doc too, because I'm going, why
is he completely ignoring I think it's because he has been a super fan of
paris Is for so long, and now when that information pops up, you
think he's doing everything he can to convince him her to marry him because he
wants to. Not only first of all, my friend Chris said it best.
I think they're too a sexual, Like they're asexual in a committed relationship,
like they're both fine with that. Oh interesting, But I think he's
so obsessed with her almost like and I don't even know if it's an accessory.
It's like weird. By season two, they're business partners in a production
company, and you're like, because season one, she's like, oh,
he's a CEO, he has his own business, and I'm like, I'm
not buying what you're trying to sell me. And so you're also watching going
she was just vamboozled. So and the way he talks to her is so
weird. He by the way he did the whole wedding. He was the
Bridezilla. Season two, you open with the surrogacy and she's like, yeah,
Carver called me, and I guess we're gonna have a baby in forty
eight hours, Like she has not been seemingly part of the entire process.
And then she doesn't like her sister comes over. It had been like a
month or two before she had even changed a diaper. The nanny that's come.
You get the sense like she's with the baby in the room all day
long, Like it's wild. This is compelling, but I have to tell
you, as you describe it, they seem like two complete assholes. Yeah.
I think there's more humanity to her, and I have tremendously I have
empathy for two reasons. One, she has horrible, horribly debilitating ADHD.
I mean, you know, when there's a spectrum maybe ADHD. I think
she is like all the way at the other end, I say, this
is a child has a child with ADHD. And I think she has lacks
some skills to sort of work with that. Yes, it's called disciplin Yeah,
I mean it's none. So there's that. And then you also when
you get to see the backstory of like what happened to her. I believe
she's been a trauma survivor for a very long time. I think it may
have, even my assessment, may have predated her going to that wilderness camp
that her parents sent her to. So then you have enormous empathy for her
because you realize she was born into a situation where her needs were not met,
especially since like she was probably taking care of nanny's and she was overlooked,
maybe considered dumb because at the time people didn't really understand adhd. She
probably wasn't obviously academic, which can spiral sometimes into addiction issues. I think
that her parents did not give her the attention she needed, and I think
that they were also completely overwhelmed. So the more you kind of pick at
it, you kind of have the empathy for all the people involved. The
only person I don't really have empathy for is I haven't figured it out Carter,
because I don't like the way he talks to her, Especially if you
have a romantic partner and you know they've been through significant trauma, you don't
need to talk to them like they're your child. Like he like talks down
her so much A bothers me. So in the end, you like Paris
because, especially a season two goes on, you see how hard it is
for her to communicate with a mother, and you see how Kathy can be
so dismissive. But then then you go to, Okay, what was Kathy's
life like? Right? And she does kind of allude to it, and
they're like this is some serious intergenerational site, Like like why did they not
go to me as a therapist even though I'm not a therapist, Like I
can help these people? Like what the fuck is up with Kathy Hilton?
Like she's injecting her stomach with you know, for IVF, you know,
to get her her probably right, So she's Paris Is injecting and her mom's
just like she doesn't even ask her what's going on, Like, oh,
well she does. At first she goes, oh, what are you doing?
She's like, I'm doing my IVF thing, and then she just is
like, have you seen my new purse? You know? I think I
think the baby voice that Paris uses is yes, and she does. They're
like two things. For I think that sexual abuse trauma survivors sometimes do that
they go back to the voice of the of the time where they were traumatized.
But I also think it's her manipulative tactic to get her mom's attention.
And that makes me sad. Yeah, it makes me sad too. What's
his deal? Carter? Where did what was he before? How did they
meet? And what did he? What was he? She says through friends?
But and it's like he's it, He's a venture capital. But then
I'm like, wait, what that's the part that I need someone to do
documentary on, right, Who is this? Carter? I'm just worried.
I f i'd The more that you watch this, your heart goes out to
Paris. You want happiness for her, even though she's she's going to be
like the person you know who's batshit bananas and you can't relate to their life
at all. But yet you care about her and you want the best for
her, and I'm just worried that maybe that's not the one for her.
Doesn't sound like it. Hey, I'm not sure how much time we have
left, but this is five minutes. Do you mind if we I want
to talk about Hell Camp. Is that what it's called? Oh yeah,
it's called hell Camp. So well, that's where she went to a similar
hell camp. This one is a Netflix document series about a place called the
Challenger Foundation and it was run by a guy who was diabolical too. I
know I've used that word several times, but that is a window into the
wilderness therapies of the eighties and nineties and how children who were seemingly out of
control, usually from wealthy families, would be sent into the wilderness, and
sort of a window into how those operated and the aftermath of it. Kay
crazy, sorry, Caitlyn. Crazy story. So I graduate college, I
come down to Los Angeles to visit to possibly live here, and my friend
Leslie from college, her family allows me to stay with them for a few
days. Her and I went down for a beach tread down on Hunts and
Beach, and I just remembered her sharing this story. She came from a
wealthy family, she was and I didn't understand it at all. She talked
about being kidnapped in the middle of the night and we were drinking while she
was telling me this story and how she'd been assaulted at this camp, and
all what I grabbed onto at the time, and this is twenty five years
ago, was the assault and we were talking about that. I completely did
not pay attention to the idea that she went to one of these camps.
Wow, And that didn't come to me until years later when ABC had a
show about these camps called Brat Camp and it ran for one season. And
yet you can go back and check that out too. Crazy. They basically
kidnapped these kids in the middle of the night from all walks of life and
then bring them out to the desert. I think this series Night in two
thousand and four was in Arizona and they made them walk in camp for like
three months and then they supposed to be fixed at the end of this.
But anyway, sorry, but yes, Paris went to that and that's why.
Yeah, no, that's crazy. I did see that documentary Hell Camp
and well, and I think she was like drugged and she was put into
solitary confinement. She was assaulted, and that's why when you are armed with
that information and then you watch this show, then you find yourself, especially
as a mom of five, going why didn't someone help her more as a
child? Why? And here she is this like beloved person all over the
world. I mean, people go insane for her and she I think she
goes out into the world and she wants it so she wants to be loved
so badly she has sought it in the arms of strangers, because even as
an adult, I don't think her parents give it to her. Well,
talking about still the Hiltons, they it seemed like they're the kind of parents
that just thought and were probably convinced they could just buy their way out of
what they perceived as a problem when she was a teenager, sending her to
that camp and just you know, maybe I think they were overwhelmed. I
think they were overwhelmed because she was young and sneaking out of the house and
all of this stuff. But that was probably a byproduct of some sort of
sexual assault, maybe even prior to the Utah camp. But again you go
back to like what happened to Kathy. The weirdest thing too, is when
she's keeping it the baby, It was like, I don't know, maybe
ten days before Kathy meets the baby for the first time. So then she
goes, well, we have to go over to the house so he can
meet dad. So they bring the baby in and she calls down for Rick
Hilton to come down, and Rick comes in and he's a little frail,
but he goes, oh, like who's this and Kathy's like, it's your
grandson and he's like huh and Paris is like, yes, you know this
is your you know, Phoenix, Baron Hilton blah blah blah, and he's
like, oh okay, and then it's like five and Sentter he goes,
Kathy, we gotta go. We've got you know, they were going off
to a party, and she's like, okay, we got to go by.
I'm like, if you child had a baby in secret and this is
the first time you've met the baby, are you gonna go to a dinner
party? Rights? It was like maddening and I'm like, are you kid?
But then I go that must have been her life, Like Something's like
she's in that her bedroom, her mom or dad walk past, and she
deeply wants to just talk to them about how she's feeling or what's going on,
and they're like gotta go. Paula Abdul's doing this thing over a gang
puck and You're like, oh god, this is so dark, right,
yeah, it's just it is. It's really fascinating. It sold me.
I'm gonna say I no, no, I am telling you you're gonna love
it. Yeah, well, I feel like I go out into the world
and people are like, Kate, here's in love. I know. I'm
like, I know, and then I have to like physically restrain myself because
I want to stay for fourteen hours and dissect it. Well, this has
been so much fun. You guys, thank you so much for stepping up
and helping me out, helping us out today. And Kate Kasey your your
podcast drops Reality So I have six episodes a week. So every Monday I'll
tell you what to watch. Tuesday through Friday, I do interviews with the
talent, directors and producers of the reality shows, documentaries and docuseries like we've
mentioned, Saturdays, I have an episode. I have a series called Saturday
Series where I interview people in my life who I find have really cool stories.
And so it's six episodes a week. So go to Reality Life with
Kate Casey wherever you listen to podcasts. But also you can sign up for
that must watch list by going to Katecasey dot substack dot com. It's free.
You sign up. Every Monday in your inbox, it will tell you
these are like this week, It's like eight things don't miss out on any
of these and you can go back to archive list, so it's like maybe
there was something three months ago and you'll go back and go, oh shit,
that looks great. Oh that's great. Well, thank you and pat
Bad TV, Bad TV Dylan with Dylan Wren. We're recapping Single Life,
ninety Day and Below Deck. So if you're a fan of other of those
shows, and if you'd like to support us on Patreon, head onto patreon
dot com. Slash another podcast network. We do two shows there a week
for the five dollars. Tier one is just talking whatever comes to mind and
the other one is a recap of episodes from Below Deck from the past.
Awesome. Thank you guys so much. It's been a pleasure. We should
do this once a month. Let's let's do it once a month. Thanks
Caylin, and thanks everybody. You're a parent now, so don't fuck it up.