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Hello everyone. So for those who
have not seen it, Jordan Peterson had

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a pretty amazing discussion with Alex O'Connor, cosmic skeptic, who I've also talked

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to on his channel as well.
I have to say that of all the

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celebrity atheists, this is Alex is
really showing himself to be one of the

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people that is truly paying attention,
not only paying attention, but seems to

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understand the arguments that Jordan is presenting
more than any of the other kind of

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celebrity atheists I've seen him talk to
in the past. One of the frustrations

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that I've had, and you know
that is often in talking to these kind

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of atheist types, it's actually that
we just talk past each other. It's

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not that we disagree. I mean, we do disagree, but ultimately,

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at least for me, it's been
very frustrating because I often feel like people

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don't understand what it is that I'm
talking about, don't understand the argument,

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and then also have a kind of
a kind of arrogance and not understanding the

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argument, which makes it even more
difficult. Right to not get annoyed at

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that kind of conversation, but in
this conversation between Jordan and Alex. You

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really get the sense that Alex has
been working very hard at trying to kind

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of understand what it is that Jordan
is getting at, not only that,

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but also willing to push his own
understanding of what religious thought is and has

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been thinking trying to think deeply about
the stories about you know, what they

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mean about you know, what would
it mean for them to have happened also

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in a in a more kind of
physical sense or not all of this stuff.

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Anyways, the conversation is very interesting, definitely worth watching, and surprisingly,

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Alex is able to get questions out
of Jordan Peterson that many people have

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not been able to get, which
even surprised me. That is, Alex

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asked them if someone put a camera
in front of the Tomb of Christ,

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if it would have captured someone walking
out and I think during's sense of like

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a suspect, so which really surprised
me. And so so yeah, so

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great stuff. So I thought I
would kind of put peek in and talk

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about one of the things that they
discussed. Alex had some very interesting insights

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about their story in Genesis, about
the story of the Fall, about the

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question of the serpent of who is
the serpent, what is the serpent's relationship

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to Christ? There would be so
much to talk about. But one of

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the things that Alex said is that
there's a problem in the text because God

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says to Adam and Eve, on
the day that you eat the fruit,

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you will die. And then when
they eat the fruit, he said,

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well, they don't die. And
so what's going on? Why is it

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that when that God says that on
the day that you eat, the day

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that you eat the fruit, you
will die, and they don't die.

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And so what I want to do
is I want to look at the story.

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I want to look at how,
in fact they do die when they

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eat the fruit. Not only do
they die, but that the manner in

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which they die is actually just like
everything in the Book of Genesis at the

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beginning of Genesis is an origin story, but we're noticing what we're seeing in

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the moment when they eat the fruit
is an origin of death. Not only

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an origin of death in the banal
sense, but an origin in the sense

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that it shows us and helps us
understand what death is. It becomes a

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lens by which we can look at
death. After that, and so I

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thought it'd be useful to look at
that, you know, just even for

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you guys, because it's an interesting
subject. This is Jonathan Pejol Welcome to

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the Symbolic World. And so before
we start, if you enjoy what we're

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doing at the Symbolic World, please
go to symbolic world dot com and consider

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becoming a member. We have an
amazing community in on our website where people

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can discuss talk about symbols of exchange
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membership. There are free members,
but there are also PAIN members who support

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what we're doing. And PAIN members
have access to a Q and A every

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month to some extra videos and also
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that we're offering. And it's also
a great way for you to support what

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we're doing, all right, And
so, as you know in the story

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of Genesis, God tells Eve not
to eat the fruit of the knowledge of

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the good and evil. They can
eat of all the fruit in the garden

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except for that one. And if
they do on the day that they eat

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of that fruit, they will die. And so then the serpent comes and

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says, surely you will not die. If you eat the fruit, you

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will become like God knowing good and
evil, and so Eve is tempted,

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she eats the fruit, and then
a bunch of stuff happens. Now,

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I've talked before about the idea that
in some ways the serpent is telling the

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truth, and so I won't go
into that right now. You know,

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maybe we could talk about it another
time, that the serpent is not completely

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lying. Just like all lies,
there's an asp of it which is true

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and which will show itself to be
true in the story of Christ. Later

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about the idea of eating the fruit
and dying. But let's see what it

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is that happens after the heats the
fruits. So I'm not going to go

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through the text, but I did
made a list of all the things that

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happened to them. Hopefully I get
this right. If you feel like I'm

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missing something, go ahead in the
comments, all right. So, when

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Adam and Eve ultimately eat the fruit, the first thing that it says that

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happens to them is that they realize
that they're naked. And then what they

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do is that, knowing that they're
naked, they hide themselves from each other.

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They put they soafig leaves on their
bodies, and then they hide themselves

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from God. Then when God finds
out, he comes to see them,

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and immediately what Adam does is he
blames Ev. He says, this woman

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that you gave me, she gave
me this fruit. And then God turns

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to Eve, and then Eve lays
the serpent. The next thing that happened

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is that God cursed the serpent and
tells the serpent that the serpent will eat

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dust. He says that there'll be
enmity between the woman and the serpent,

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the serpent and her offspring, and
that the woman's offspring will crush the head

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of the serpent, and the serpent
will strike at the heel of that offspring.

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He tells you that you'll have pain
and childbirth, that you'll have desire

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for a husband, but he will
rule over her. He says that the

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ground is cursed, and then he
says that to atom, and he says

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that now it will be painful to
get food. You have to work in

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order to find food. The world
will pursue, will produce thorns and thistles,

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and you'll have to eat the plants
of the field. And then finally

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he ends his pronunciation by saying that
for dust you are, and to dust

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you will return. You have come
out from the ground. We have to

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return to the ground. And so
the key for us in understanding all of

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these statements is in the last heart, is in the very end of the

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statement where God says to Adam,
from dust you are and from dust you

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will return. If you remember,
in the second Creation account, God gathers

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the dust of the earth and then
blows the spirit into the dust. And

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that is how God, that is
how man becomes a living spirit becomes a

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living being. And so you know, when you look at that, you

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might at the outset think okay.
And then they leave the garden. It's

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like, well, if God said
that they would die, why don't they

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just drop dead? You know,
why don't they just eat the fruit and

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drop dead? And I think it's
because people do. Death is one of

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those things that we think we understand, but that we usually don't have very

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good definitions for, and that we
don't totally understand what it is that they're

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referring to. And also to understand
the death is something that doesn't just apply

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to a person, but that applies
at every level, every ontological level of

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reality. That there's analogies to what
death is at every antology level. And

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this is of course what's going on
here is that all the elements are trying

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to help us understand what death is. We have a kind of origin story

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for death. And like I said, the clue is in the idea of

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dust. So the idea is that
now you will become dust. Now what

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does it mean to become dust?
First of all, what is dust?

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Dust is basically in a massive things
that have no relationship with each other.

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That's what dust is the difference.
And then God gathers the dust together,

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all these disperse elements, and then
he puts a spirit in it. He

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puts a breath in it. He
puts heaven inside, he puts a name

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inside, he puts meaning inside,
he puts purpose inside. He puts all

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the things that are invisible patterns that
legislate disperse elements. He puts that in

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this gathering of dust. Now the
dust is animated. Now the dust is

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now is no longer dust, but
is one being, even though it's still

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made of dust. And so this
is the difference between life and death.

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The difference between life is and death
is the difference between unity, which contains

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multiplicity, and multiplicity, which no
longer has unity bringing it together. That

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is the difference between life and death. And so the difference, if you

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like, in the most mundane way, the difference between a live animal and

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a dead animal is the difference between
all these different elements in an animal that

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are moving towards the purpose, purpose
of survival, the purposes that animals have,

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and then all of a sudden,
something happens to the animal. Now

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the breath leaves, right, the
spirit leads the animal, and the Bible

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says, we don't know if it
goes up or it goes down. But

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let's say the spirit leaves the animal, and now the elements of the animal

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no longer cohere completely towards purpose,
and that's why they will start to decompose.

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The elements will start to break apart
from each other. It takes time,

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but at the moment of death,
that process has already become There's a

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mystery by which death is actually part
of life, but that would be too

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complicated to talk about that right now. But the idea of something that is

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dead is something that has lost now
its unitary purpose. Now, this is

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the best way to understand what death
is, and it can be applied at

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different levels of reality. So if
you understand that, that is what it

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means for you to die. So
when you die, your body now is

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still there, but it starts to
decompose because there's nothing holding it together towards

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purpose. So you can understand then
that all the things that move you away

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from your purpose are akin at least
to death. That is sickness. For

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example, when your body is breaking
down and is not capable of properly moving

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towards its purpose, then that is
a process of death. Old age,

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when you get older and your body
starts to wither and it no longer easily

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moves towards the purpose that you have
for the body, then that old age

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is also akin to death. Now
it's not arbitrary that both death, both

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disease and old age do lead to
death in the in the absolute sense,

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like in the sense that now there
really is this complete separation between the reason,

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the spirit, the unifying principle,
and the and the disparate elements,

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and you can see the process all
alonge. But that's this is what it

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is you're supposed to understand. But
now you can also apply to anything that

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has commonality, and so you can
say that you can say you know,

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with a true analogy, you can
say, well, the death of my

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friendship with this person, and so
which is the death my friendship with this

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person means? It's not like,
you know, we don't cease to exist

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like me and Bob. We were
still there. So what does it mean

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for a friendship to die? It
means that the thing that bound us together,

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that created a third reality, which
is our relationship, which is the

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communion of us together, is now
gone. And because of that, now

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Bob and I are going are separate
ways. And it's if you say the

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end or the death of an empire, the end of the death of a

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nation, that's the same thing.
The things that are that made the empire

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are still there, right, the
remainders of the buildings, the matter,

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the people are there. But what
happens is now they no longer have a

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reason in order to join together and
to participate in a common identity. It's

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true for the death of a company, for the death of anything that you

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can imagine that has a unifying principle
holding it together towards purpose, and then

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that principle going away. The elements
now disperse and become something like food for

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something else. They become potential for
other beings. So you know, it's

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like, if I'm no longer friends
with Bob, I can still be friends

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with someone else. And so that, you know, like, let's say

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friendship is complicated gas multiple Let's say
I'm married to someone and then I get

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divorced and that's the death of our
marriage. But now I become potential for

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another relationship that I can engage in. And that's true for nations, it's

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true for companies, et cetera,
et cetera. Okay, and so this

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is what dying means, and this
is what begins to happen at the fall,

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and so all the elements that are
there in the story are there to

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show that. And so what's the
first thing that happens That the Adam and

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Eve noticed that they're naked and that
they have to protect themselves. And so

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why do you have to protect yourself
from something? You have to protect yourself

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from something because it's not you,
it's not part of you. You know,

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you have to protect your something because
it is hostile to the identity.

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So a company has to protect itself
from spies from the other company because those

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spies are hostile to the purpose of
the company. A being has to protect

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themselves from being hurt from a being, from someone, you know, hitting

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them with the sword or whatever it
is that you have to do. That

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is the nature of protection. The
nature of having to separate yourself in an

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act of protection from someone else is
an image of separation. It's an image

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now of multiplicity that's losing its unitary
function. So before that Adam and Eve

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were naked, but they didn't have
to protect each other. They didn't have

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to protect each other from each other, and they also didn't have to protect

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each other from God. There was
multiplicity, but that multiplicity was moving towards

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communion and unity. And now the
multiplicity is moving away from communion and unity

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and is becoming hostility, is becoming
danger, is becoming shame, is become

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I mean secret, All of these
things are you know, why do you

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have to keep a secret from other
people? You have to keep a secret.

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You have to keep a secret because
the people that don't know the secret

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are outside from you, And so
you have this separation between inside and outside,

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which is now formulated as a form
of hostility. Now this is implicit

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in the very eating of the fruit
of the knowledge of good and evil.

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Matsyr my brother has a great way
of helping people understand by saying that if

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when you use the word good and
evil, it has so much baggage because

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it's people applied only to morality.
But the best way to look at it

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is to say, the tree of
good and bad, right, And so

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what is bad bad is that which
is not related to the identity. And

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so a bad chair is a chair
that is moving away from the purpose of

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the chair. A bad apple is
an apple that is falling apart and is

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no longer cohesive to the reason why
I would care about an apple in the

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first place. And so et cetera, et cetera. That is what bad

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is bad is the movement away from
an identity. Now the thing is about

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good and bad. It is a
necessary it is a necessary category for the

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existence of multiplicity, because you can
you can conceive of bad that's simply the

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distance between beings. And so you
know, it's like, how can I

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say this, a car makes a
bad lunch and and and you know,

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like a bird makes a bad chair. And that's totally fine, because bad

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can be understood as the distance between
beings. Now, there is a danger

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in the knowledge of good and evil, which is that you can you know.

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Saint Ephraim the Syrian talks about this
problem, which is that he said,

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is that Adam and Eve were going
to be given the fruit of the

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knowledge of good and evil when they
were ready, and so that they could

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see bad from the position of good. But he said, because they took

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it for themselves. Now what happened
is now they see good from the position

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of bad. Is that they are
now trapped in multiplicity without unity, and

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the unity seems that is as it
appears far away, and that they can't

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they no longer have access to it. But if you would see good and

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evil from the position of good,
you would say, then you would be

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able to identify difference in a way
that is completely normal, in a way

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that is completely healthy, because I
understand that, like I said that a

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bird makes a bad chair, and
that's completely fine. If I know the

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good of the chair and I know
the good of the bird, there's no

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problem there. And so the problem
happens when it happens from the other side.

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And so when you look at what
happens there, the nakedness is the

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third part is the first part,
and so you have the separation. They

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have to separate themselves from each other
because they have to protect themselves from God.

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That have to protect themselves from each
other. And then, of course

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immediately what happens after that is that
Adam blames Eve. Adam says it's her

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fault, and he says it's the
serpent's fault. Now that's an increase of

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that separation. When we begin to
blame each other for things, then we

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are moving further and further away from
each other. God curses the serpent and

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says that he will eat dust.
Now, the eating of dust of the

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serpent is related obviously to the Adam
and Eve becoming dust at the end that

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now the serpent, you know,
I've told I've said this a few times.

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You have to understand the serpent as
this coil, as a kin to

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the Leviathan that surrounds the world.
The serpent is the periphery. The serpent

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is that which is around the center. It represents the marginality. It is

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the dead skins, right, it
is the changing of skins. It's change,

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it's variety, it's different, it's
a distance, is all of those

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things. But now this serpent will
eat the dust. That it will be

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only connected to fragmentation and that which
is broken down and will no longer simply

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be an expression of the center.
Like it won't be multiplicity as expressing the

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middle. It won't be a variety
or change or transformation as expressing the good.

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Okay, that will change in the
story of the Bible, right,

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this is the story of the Bronze
Serpent, and ultimately the story of Jesus

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is there's a restoration of the function
of the serpent as this agent of transformation

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towards the good. But now in
this case, God says to the serpent,

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you will just eat the dust,
like you will just be connected to

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the outside. And then he puts
enity between the woman and the serpent,

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the serpent and her offspring. And
you can see now it's the same problem.

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So now because of that, you
have two problems. You have chaos

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and tyranny. You have two extremes. The world tends to move towards hyper

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order in order to control the situation, and then there's also a move towards

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you could say hyper chaos in order
to you know, these two now kind

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of face each other, and so
you have the serpent wanting to bite the

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heel of the person, and then
because of that, now the person has

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to crush. And that image of
the serpent trying to bite the heel and

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the human having to crush the serpent
is an image of civilization itself. It's

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the beginning of civilization. It's the
beginning of all artificial structures that try to

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keep chaos out. And that that
which is wild, that which is trained,

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that which is different, now is
seen as threatening to the inside of

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the city. And you have to, you know, you basically have to

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over it in a manner that is
different from the way that Adam ruled over

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the world before. Before the fall, Adam named the animals. Adam ruled

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over the world in a kind of
a capacity to name the beings, you

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know, and participate in their identity. But now this is the other side,

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which is this idea of crushing and
and and God just says that this

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is how it's going to be.
It's important to understand that this is just

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the consequence of the eating of the
fruit of the knowledge of good and evil

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improperly, and that the curse is
just it's just like the simple consequence of

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what that means. And it's showing
us what death is. Like I said,

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of course, the the the next
one is pain and childbirth. And

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this is maybe a little harder for
people to understand why that's necessary, but

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it has to do with this.
It has to do with the fact that

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the production of multiplicity and the production
of difference is now painful, right,

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It is no longer a natural production
of multiplicity. You know, there's this

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there's idea in the Church Fathers that
that Adam and Eve were supposed to multiply

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themselves in a manner that was something
like intelligence, you know, going over

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all of creation and kind of joining
it together in this unity. But now

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you know, human nature was broken, as some of their fathers say,

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and now we have multiple people,
and now those multiple people are born in

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pain because the process of multiplication is
now a process of suffering, just like

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death is this breaking down of people, and suffering is related to that and

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the same and so you have this
the same thing that happened. So what

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says that there's pain and childbirth and
that her husband will rule over her is

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a repetition at a different level of
what we said before, which is that

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you know, the serpent will move
towards the outside and to dust, and

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then we'll try to bite at the
heel and there'll be a crushing of the

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heel. And so now it's the
same thing. The woman will be producing

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multiplicity and pain, and then ultimately
her husband will rule over will kind of

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crush her in that way. So
it's not like and once again we have

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to always remember that this is just
a description of how death functions and what

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the process of the extremes of move
it falling into duality does the ground being

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cursed, of course, obviously,
hopefully this is now becoming more and more

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and more obvious. The ground being
cursed is equivalent to the pain in childbirth

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is equivalent to the eating of dust. And now Adam has to impose his

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will on the world in order to
in order to be able to live,

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and the thorns and the thistles will
resist him. So you have the same

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structure, the dust and the serpent. And then ultimately the idea that the

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dust is the serpent is biting at
the heel, the man has to crush

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it. The woman is might making
multiplicity in desire, she kind of desires

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her husband. He rules over her. Again, the ground is cursed.

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You have and and the thorns and
the thistles are attacking, and now you

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have to you have to impose your
will on it in order to make it

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function. So this is a description
of what death is. And you can

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understand that this is something. Like
I said, it's really good for you

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to understand that this is how death
functions, because this is what happens.

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So think about now the process,
let's say of a city or of a

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company. And so you have a
kind of unity in multiplicity. And when

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that's going well, there's a balance, right, there's a sense in which

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the multiplicity is moving as in a
kind of dance, towards the purpose of

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the company, and there's a there's
a flow of identity from the company,

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and there's a flow of participation from
the bottom up. Now, some things

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can happen in a break where there's
a lack of trust, where there is

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a sin from above, let's say, where the people, the leaders of

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the company, start to take too
much for themselves, or they start to

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act unfairly or whatever that is.
And then that creates a kind of fracture

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in the body. And then the
body now starts to act against each other.

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And now they're not focused on the
purpose of the company. They're basically

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infighting. They're trying to get their
own they're trying to pull the blanket,

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they're trying to make things. You
know, they're trying to protect themselves from

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each other because they see their leaders
or they see their co workers as their

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enemies, as their competition or whatever. And then and then you have this

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sense of breakdown. And so the
only one of the ways to deal with

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that, and it can work to
some extent, is then leadership sometimes has

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to impose itself more strongly and say, okay, now we have to put

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consequences, we have to make rules, we have to you know, we

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have to create ways to discipline,
ways to fire people, to get rid

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of them so that if they're trying
to infect the company. And so,

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as the company grows, at the
beginning, it'll be pretty organic, you

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know, just a little team and
everybody's kind of worked together and it's great.

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Then it grows, and as the
possibility of death starts to manifest itself,

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then the systems of control will become
can become not necessarily depends on the

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company, but can become more and
more tyrannical. And then you have this

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exchange between a kind of distrust here
and break down here and then more tyranny

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at the top. I've talked about
this many times in many videos about this

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image of this relationship and how it
culminates in the image of the prostitute and

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the beast in revelation. And so
of course, like I said, then

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this ends with this image that from
dust you are and from dust you will

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return as the kind of culmination of
the process of death. And so by

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looking at the story of the Fall, you can actually understand the process of

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death and what death is, and
you can understand it fractally. Like I

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said, you can understand that in
some ways death is always somewhat active in

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the in your life. It's always
there, it's always part and there is

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you know, how can I say
this? There is also a way to

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flip this, and there's a way
to flip death into glory, which is

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something I've talked about also many times, which is that you can make multiplicity

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into a form of glory if you're
able to flip the process of multiplication into

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a way in which it expresses the
fullness of the unity. And so that

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is also possible. And this seems
to happen through self sacrifice. This is

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what I've been talking about with Jordan
has been talking about that through self sacrifice

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you're able to then you know,
if the leader, for example, shows

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that he's a self sacrificial character,
that he's acting with love towards the people

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that are making up the company,
that he's not wanting to take everything for

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himself, that he cares, that
he takes care of the people below him,

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and he's also giving himself to the
purpose of the company, and isn't

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just trying to make money. He
has vision and he's willing to kind of

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give himself towards that. If he
does that, then then the multiplicity can

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become a type of glory. It
doesn't have to be death. It doesn't

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have to be infighting and and and
competition and the kind of fragmentation, but

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it can align itself and then it
can become an image of the can become

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a kind of instantiation, very large
instantiation of the vision of the company.

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Right, And so it could be
company could be anything. It could be

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you could be, your life could
be, your family be all kinds of

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things. But this is of course, I think this is good to see

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and so this was just a little, a little, you know, a

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little rejoinder, just to kind of
jump into the conversation. I thought,

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like I said that the conversation between
Jordan and Alex was really wonderful. There

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are many other things that I could
say about it, you know, and

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maybe in the in the in the
UH comment section, if there are some

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aspects of that conversation do you'd like
me to comment on that you think are

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worthy, maybe I'll take that into
consideration. And so thank you everybody,

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Thank you for your attention. I
hope you're having a wonderful time and I'll

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talk to you very soon. Bye
bye,