1 00:00:01,080 --> 00:00:07,200 You're listening to the Mind Over Murder podcast. My name is Bill Thomas. 2 00:00:07,759 --> 00:00:12,039 I'm a writer, consulting, producer, and now podcaster. I am now 3 00:00:12,080 --> 00:00:16,000 trying to use my experience as the brother of a murder victim to help other 4 00:00:16,079 --> 00:00:20,239 victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book on the unsolved Colonial Parkway 5 00:00:20,320 --> 00:00:24,640 murders, and I'm the co administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together 6 00:00:24,679 --> 00:00:28,440 with Kristin Dilley. My name is Kristin Dilley. I'm a writer, a 7 00:00:28,519 --> 00:00:32,439 researcher, a teacher, and a victim's advocate, as well as the social 8 00:00:32,479 --> 00:00:37,759 media manager and co administrator for the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook page with my partner 9 00:00:37,799 --> 00:00:50,000 in crime, Bill Thomas. Welcome to mind Over Murder. I'm Kristin Dilley 10 00:00:50,119 --> 00:00:54,840 and I'm Bill Thomas. We're joined today by author Jillian Lauren to talk about 11 00:00:54,920 --> 00:01:00,320 her brand new book, Behold the Monster, Confronting America's most prolific serial killer, 12 00:01:00,600 --> 00:01:03,679 Chilian. Thank you for joining us today. Thank you so much for 13 00:01:03,719 --> 00:01:07,640 having me. Can you start by telling us a little bit about your personal 14 00:01:07,680 --> 00:01:17,040 and professional background. Sure. I am an author and journalist and sometime murder 15 00:01:17,120 --> 00:01:25,599 silver and definitely a rock wife and terrible kickboxer and an advocate for victims' rights. 16 00:01:26,040 --> 00:01:30,120 And I this is my fourth book, We Hold the Monster. I 17 00:01:30,719 --> 00:01:36,359 my first book got a lot of hooplah because it was frankly, I don't 18 00:01:36,400 --> 00:01:40,879 tend to use a word very much, but I was sex trafficked to the 19 00:01:40,920 --> 00:01:46,120 country of Bernai when I was just three days after I was eighteen years old, 20 00:01:46,680 --> 00:01:51,239 and so it's really about that experience being the mistress of the Prince of 21 00:01:51,319 --> 00:01:57,719 Burnai. And then a book about parenting kids with special needs novel, and 22 00:01:57,760 --> 00:02:04,120 then this Behold a Monster, which is about the conversations that I had with 23 00:02:04,280 --> 00:02:08,840 America's most prolific serial killer. Talk to us a little bit about how you 24 00:02:09,159 --> 00:02:14,759 got into this case. How does one stumble across a serial killer, much 25 00:02:14,879 --> 00:02:19,599 less the most prolific one in US history. I had no idea. I 26 00:02:19,680 --> 00:02:28,319 was writing a novel and I interviewed this famous infamous detective Mitsy Roberts, who 27 00:02:28,960 --> 00:02:34,520 if anyone reads Michael Connolly, and everyone reads Michael Connolly, his character Renee 28 00:02:34,560 --> 00:02:38,560 Ballard is based on Mitsy. I'll tell you the real thing is even saltier 29 00:02:38,639 --> 00:02:46,919 and spicier. And I scored this interview with her through Michael, just through 30 00:02:46,919 --> 00:02:51,240 the writing community, and I was talking to her about I had piece about 31 00:02:51,360 --> 00:02:54,919 Black Dahlia in this novel, which one day I hope you all will read. 32 00:02:57,639 --> 00:03:00,599 But at the end of that interview, so we had been talking about 33 00:03:00,719 --> 00:03:07,039 police procedure and LA history, and I said, what are you most proud 34 00:03:07,120 --> 00:03:10,599 of? And she said, I'm proud of them all. But I did 35 00:03:10,680 --> 00:03:15,919 catch this serial killer once and that was pretty cool. And I was like, 36 00:03:15,240 --> 00:03:20,240 what, I messed this interview up so badly. I buried the lead 37 00:03:21,080 --> 00:03:24,000 And she said I wasn't the one asking the questions, and I said, 38 00:03:24,080 --> 00:03:29,759 just tell me about this real quick. She said that Samuel Little had been 39 00:03:30,240 --> 00:03:38,080 convicted in twenty fourteen. She was working in what was at the time the 40 00:03:38,120 --> 00:03:44,199 Cold Case Special Section, and they were using a grant from the Department of 41 00:03:44,240 --> 00:03:49,039 Justice, but to run old cold case evidence. And there was a significant 42 00:03:49,080 --> 00:03:55,560 push toward this at that time because Dana fingerprinting really hasn't been an effect in 43 00:03:55,599 --> 00:04:00,680 this country until nineteen ninety one. In any case, they got one, 44 00:04:00,759 --> 00:04:05,479 two, three hits Bank and they all had the same mo all matched to 45 00:04:05,599 --> 00:04:11,319 sam Little, and then there was a cross country man hunt for him because 46 00:04:11,319 --> 00:04:15,000 he was a transient and I didn't know where he was at any time, 47 00:04:15,079 --> 00:04:19,319 there was no He was very good at staying in the shadows nuts. That's 48 00:04:19,360 --> 00:04:24,279 how he did what he did. I asked Mitzy. I called her and 49 00:04:24,319 --> 00:04:29,199 I said, Jacative Roberts, would you mind if I looked into this story. 50 00:04:29,279 --> 00:04:32,879 It seems very underreported, And she said, you have our blessings, 51 00:04:33,040 --> 00:04:38,639 like we believe there are many more victims across the country, but there are 52 00:04:38,720 --> 00:04:47,360 limited resources in small jurisdictions that and also limited interest. You know, many 53 00:04:47,480 --> 00:04:54,199 there isn't a cold case department in many cities. And when I call Omaha 54 00:04:54,360 --> 00:04:57,920 and I say, you know how many people are in your department? Talked 55 00:04:57,920 --> 00:05:01,399 to the cold case detective and she says me one, Yeah, yeah, 56 00:05:01,439 --> 00:05:06,759 Cincinnati me Kelly, I'm best, amazing detective. Yeah, I'm like, 57 00:05:06,839 --> 00:05:14,199 who's the cold case team? Me? And that's in those cities where you 58 00:05:14,240 --> 00:05:18,720 were lucky enough to find somebody doing cold cases at all. It takes passion. 59 00:05:19,680 --> 00:05:26,759 It does take passion on the part of the detective to pursue these They're 60 00:05:26,839 --> 00:05:34,439 not they're long slogging like you just don't know, and so many times heartbreaking 61 00:05:34,639 --> 00:05:40,800 cases. But takes somebody as a particular kind of passion. When were these 62 00:05:40,839 --> 00:05:45,480 conversations with Detective Roberts. How far back are we going in the development of 63 00:05:45,560 --> 00:05:50,600 your wait let me tell you. October twenty seventeen, I thought I was 64 00:05:50,639 --> 00:05:58,079 writing an eight thousand word piece for New York Magazine. I was saying, 65 00:05:58,160 --> 00:06:02,319 this is going to be my piece of true crime rape portage. There is 66 00:06:02,399 --> 00:06:09,279 no eye in this story. And a memoirist by trade, really there is 67 00:06:09,399 --> 00:06:14,439 no story without my eye. Of course, I wound up inserted into. 68 00:06:14,480 --> 00:06:18,680 I wound up inserted into a federal investigation that I did. I really didn't 69 00:06:18,680 --> 00:06:24,279 expect that part. But what I did was I called my editor at New 70 00:06:24,360 --> 00:06:29,040 York Magazine and I said, I've got this underreported serial killer. And it's 71 00:06:29,079 --> 00:06:33,199 not just gonna do another serial killer, another gruesome. You need to have 72 00:06:33,240 --> 00:06:36,319 an angle. I was like, Okay, I'm gonna start writing letters. 73 00:06:38,600 --> 00:06:43,199 So I started writing letters, which it takes about six months to get you 74 00:06:44,240 --> 00:06:53,160 to get your allowance your entry into California prison, maximum security prison, it 75 00:06:53,160 --> 00:06:56,560 takes about six months. So it was like six months of letters before I 76 00:06:56,600 --> 00:07:00,839 actually got in there and faced it. Now, when your first interacting or 77 00:07:00,920 --> 00:07:04,399 attempting to interact with someone like Samuel Little. Who are you writing to do 78 00:07:04,439 --> 00:07:11,040 You write the Samuel Little and it's screened by the warden or staff. Yeah, 79 00:07:11,199 --> 00:07:15,959 there's all the malice screened. There are definitely things you can and cannot 80 00:07:15,040 --> 00:07:21,000 send. You can't send pornographic material, you can't send any maps, you 81 00:07:21,120 --> 00:07:26,399 can't send things like that. None of these were an issue. Or although 82 00:07:26,399 --> 00:07:30,480 I may have sent him maps if I could have and had him go with 83 00:07:30,600 --> 00:07:35,240 them, because that's part of what our relationship turned into, is him giving 84 00:07:35,279 --> 00:07:41,920 me these hints or like helping me solve his murders. But yeah, they 85 00:07:42,040 --> 00:07:47,040 screened that, but they were all there was all a bunch of hogwash anyway, 86 00:07:47,079 --> 00:07:53,560 because his whole he was he maintained his innocence. He said, my 87 00:07:53,720 --> 00:07:58,639 upside down case, and I'm just the unluckiest guy in the world. I 88 00:07:58,759 --> 00:08:03,600 turn up at the wrong plays at the wrong time. That's how my evidence, 89 00:08:03,680 --> 00:08:09,079 that's how my DNA gets there. And I had and until I got 90 00:08:09,120 --> 00:08:13,959 in there and based him, I wasn't going to start challenging that. I 91 00:08:13,040 --> 00:08:18,040 have an ace in the hall. I have an aunt who's a very famous 92 00:08:18,079 --> 00:08:24,199 psychiatrist, and she told me don't expect him, don't expect to be able 93 00:08:24,240 --> 00:08:30,160 to tease the truth from the lies right away, and also don't even expect 94 00:08:30,240 --> 00:08:33,399 that he can't. I have this wonderful quote from your aunt, and that's 95 00:08:33,440 --> 00:08:37,240 actually one of the questions I was about to head into. And I loved 96 00:08:37,279 --> 00:08:41,919 this quote. She described psychopathy as saying, psychopathy is like jeopardy. All 97 00:08:41,960 --> 00:08:45,919 answers are questions, and don't expect to win. I can tell you what 98 00:08:45,960 --> 00:08:48,480 it feels like to be around a psychopath. He'll steal the shirt off your 99 00:08:48,480 --> 00:08:50,399 back. He'll tell you if he's stealing the shirt off your back, still 100 00:08:50,399 --> 00:08:54,279 you will be inexplicably compelled to give him the shirt off your back. Is 101 00:08:54,320 --> 00:09:00,519 that the way you felt spending time with him, Yes, and even more 102 00:09:00,519 --> 00:09:07,600 so helped me identify questionable relationships in my own life and my history, Like 103 00:09:09,159 --> 00:09:13,519 spending time with Samuel way out there on the fringe. So you may think 104 00:09:13,600 --> 00:09:22,200 that there are many serial killers operating out there based on media interest, but 105 00:09:22,320 --> 00:09:26,360 there actually aren't. It's a rare thing. And so to see the far 106 00:09:26,759 --> 00:09:33,919 edges of violence against women, I started to be able to look and a 107 00:09:33,960 --> 00:09:39,279 little bit closer to the center into my life and be like, oh, 108 00:09:39,440 --> 00:09:46,480 that guy was a psycho, Like that guy was for realist psycho. Now 109 00:09:46,519 --> 00:09:52,159 that I know all this about it, it was an amazing learning journey for 110 00:09:52,240 --> 00:09:56,799 me. But yes, that is actually absolutely how it felt. And everything 111 00:09:56,879 --> 00:10:01,799 was a transaction. I was reading where you were talking about having to set 112 00:10:01,879 --> 00:10:07,200 up food for him. Was it always about hey, Sam, here to 113 00:10:07,279 --> 00:10:11,320 talk have some funnyans? What did it always have to be that transactional I 114 00:10:11,440 --> 00:10:13,320 give you food, you give me information? Or was there more to it 115 00:10:13,399 --> 00:10:18,039 than that the food that I got him and set up for him, And 116 00:10:18,159 --> 00:10:22,200 people have been so disgusted, I'm like, yeah, I have wiped the 117 00:10:22,240 --> 00:10:28,080 corners of his mouth and opened to soda and gave him these gross chicken wings 118 00:10:28,120 --> 00:10:33,039 and then had to have chicken wing breath in my face because one thing psychopaths 119 00:10:33,080 --> 00:10:41,879 do is talk really quietly so that you have to lean it and it just 120 00:10:41,200 --> 00:10:50,879 is until you're like what what And you're like five inches now from garlic garbecue 121 00:10:50,919 --> 00:10:56,679 wings from the prison vending machines. But the reason the setting up stuff for 122 00:10:56,799 --> 00:11:01,600 him, So we were always at we were at the VP table, where 123 00:11:01,600 --> 00:11:05,200 like if you're at the auction, it's like the number one table It was 124 00:11:05,600 --> 00:11:09,960 right in front of the deputies. It was under like twelve cameras. I 125 00:11:11,039 --> 00:11:15,919 was like, this is so vip, except it was a little tiny table 126 00:11:16,480 --> 00:11:20,639 and because he was in a wheelchairs, so I just felt like gigantor sitting 127 00:11:20,639 --> 00:11:26,919 at this tiny table. But the feeding him was in part of performance for 128 00:11:28,000 --> 00:11:33,039 the people around us, because the transaction wasn't the food. He could have 129 00:11:33,200 --> 00:11:41,240 given a darn about those chicken wings. It was about everyone around him seeing 130 00:11:41,279 --> 00:11:45,480 this put together lady. All of a sudden, he's got a visitor and 131 00:11:45,559 --> 00:11:50,240 she's taking care of him, like she's serving him. And also like he 132 00:11:50,320 --> 00:11:56,320 wanted service from women, and I picked that up right away. I was 133 00:11:56,399 --> 00:12:00,879 just like, serve this guy and do it in front of everybody because it 134 00:12:00,919 --> 00:12:05,759 gave him. It gave him a lot of juju in the yard and when 135 00:12:05,799 --> 00:12:13,399 they're like, who's that, who's that nice white lady in a black dress 136 00:12:13,399 --> 00:12:18,039 showing up to feed your chicken wings? And god knows what he said. 137 00:12:18,960 --> 00:12:24,840 I do actually know several things he said, but it's not important. The 138 00:12:24,960 --> 00:12:31,480 importance was the performance. Let's talk about the logistics for a second. I 139 00:12:31,559 --> 00:12:35,039 had assumed that when you went to meet with a serial killer, in a 140 00:12:35,080 --> 00:12:39,120 maximum security prison that you'd be on one side of a very thick set of 141 00:12:39,240 --> 00:12:43,720 glass, he'd be on the other side. There'd be no physical contact because 142 00:12:43,759 --> 00:12:46,480 you know, you were blocked from one another, and that's not the situation 143 00:12:46,559 --> 00:12:52,240 at all as you describe it. You would think that, and that is 144 00:12:52,399 --> 00:12:56,879 exactly what I thought. No other information. You're not a cop, you're 145 00:12:56,879 --> 00:13:05,200 not law enforcement, you said yourself. Family, I'm yeah, I'm really 146 00:13:05,240 --> 00:13:09,240 glad those skills weren't tested. But no, I was in the family visiting 147 00:13:09,360 --> 00:13:15,759 room. Every time you visit an inmate. Depending on their status, you 148 00:13:15,840 --> 00:13:18,759 could be like a level four, a level three, depending on what your 149 00:13:18,799 --> 00:13:24,360 jacket is. But he just managed to do what he always did his whole 150 00:13:24,360 --> 00:13:30,480 life, which is just like slide through the cracks, just like right under 151 00:13:30,519 --> 00:13:33,120 the radar. That was a lot of metaphors, but that's what he did. 152 00:13:33,320 --> 00:13:39,360 And so when I showed up and the guard said to me, how 153 00:13:39,360 --> 00:13:43,799 do you know little and I was just like, he's a friend. I 154 00:13:43,879 --> 00:13:48,240 was gonna be like, I'm a journalist, go get every single guard who 155 00:13:48,240 --> 00:13:52,320 works at this prison, them squirt me out right now. But I said, 156 00:13:52,320 --> 00:13:58,679 I'm a friend. He was like a friend, My but I'm not 157 00:13:58,840 --> 00:14:07,120 swearing you're good. But they always had me right right there, and I 158 00:14:07,240 --> 00:14:11,919 got to know the deputies. And I have these sort of this mix of 159 00:14:11,000 --> 00:14:18,519 like really hard journalism, I'll go really deep and like I will go for 160 00:14:18,559 --> 00:14:22,799 the jugular if it's the moment to do, and I do several times in 161 00:14:22,840 --> 00:14:26,799 the book. And this is not how I treat victim interviews, which I 162 00:14:26,840 --> 00:14:31,320 think are actually the best thing I do. But I will definitely go for 163 00:14:31,360 --> 00:14:39,679 the jugular. And these interviews were a whole other ball game from anything I've 164 00:14:39,720 --> 00:14:46,679 ever done. There were so many emotional and just acrobatics that I did. 165 00:14:48,600 --> 00:14:52,159 You talked about the fact chapter ten that and I love this quote that you 166 00:14:52,240 --> 00:14:54,679 use. I'm quitting your writing back to you. I hope you don't mind, 167 00:14:56,519 --> 00:14:58,639 but I love that. Are you kidding? It's like my dream come 168 00:14:58,759 --> 00:15:03,519 true. I'm a writer. I marked up your book extensively at that. 169 00:15:05,799 --> 00:15:09,360 So clever. Okay, Anyway, when I write so, you quoted from 170 00:15:09,360 --> 00:15:13,320 OURFK first of all in chapter ten by saying every society gets the kind of 171 00:15:13,320 --> 00:15:16,799 criminal deserves. What's equally true is that every community gets the kind of law 172 00:15:16,879 --> 00:15:20,360 enforcement it insists on. And then you followed that up with what I think 173 00:15:20,399 --> 00:15:24,120 is the best statement you said. I do not know Samuel Little was the 174 00:15:24,159 --> 00:15:28,000 criminal we deserved, but I know he's the criminal we allowed. So talk 175 00:15:28,039 --> 00:15:33,120 a little bit about the failures of the criminal justice system that let this guy 176 00:15:33,320 --> 00:15:37,559 walk free for so many years, Because it was during that chapter that I'm 177 00:15:37,559 --> 00:15:43,320 sitting there writing WTF in the margins and underling and scribbling and exclamation pointing and 178 00:15:43,399 --> 00:15:46,120 yelling every once in a while, talk about failures that let him go. 179 00:15:46,799 --> 00:15:54,039 Everyone who sees his rap sheet has that response, has like a big WTF 180 00:15:54,080 --> 00:15:58,519 and big I had a big crying fit. I couldn't believe it, Like 181 00:15:58,799 --> 00:16:04,360 you look at that raps. The Deputy District Attorney Beth Silverman, who has 182 00:16:04,600 --> 00:16:14,679 prosecutes almost every capital case in La Chester Turner, Grim Sleeper, now Harass 183 00:16:14,840 --> 00:16:21,240 van Ball most recently, she cried when she first saw this rap sheet. 184 00:16:22,000 --> 00:16:25,919 So how to get away with it? Okay, there are a few reasons 185 00:16:26,279 --> 00:16:30,679 a failure of the criminal justice system is certainly one of those. There were 186 00:16:30,799 --> 00:16:38,200 just he worked very specifically, sherry picking his victims for where they lived, 187 00:16:38,360 --> 00:16:44,600 for their social status. He picked marginalized victims, often women of color, 188 00:16:45,080 --> 00:16:51,799 Many times addicts prostitutes, And if you go down to Pascagoula, Mississippi, 189 00:16:52,600 --> 00:16:57,960 the police there will tell you that you really couldn't commit a crime. In 190 00:16:59,039 --> 00:17:03,039 the early eighties against a black prostitute in Pasco Cool, it was not considered 191 00:17:03,079 --> 00:17:08,079 a crime. There were those kind of failures, the failures more of just 192 00:17:08,559 --> 00:17:17,720 ignoring and of placing different worth on different victims of crime. And it's something 193 00:17:17,720 --> 00:17:22,160 that I didn't make up, but apparently every popularized. I was a criminologist 194 00:17:22,279 --> 00:17:27,240 named Steven Eggers who said that there are people who are less dead and people 195 00:17:27,240 --> 00:17:32,960 who are more dead. I fear the governor's blonde, adorable daughter who goes 196 00:17:33,000 --> 00:17:37,319 missing on spring break, you are the most dead. And if you are 197 00:17:37,400 --> 00:17:44,680 a black prostitute on crack, you are the least dead. And cops in 198 00:17:44,839 --> 00:17:48,799 LA used to patrol. Cops used to call in these murders. There were 199 00:17:49,079 --> 00:17:57,000 women turning up in dumpsters every morning in the eighties and early nineties, with 200 00:17:57,119 --> 00:18:07,039 a crack epidemic and with unjust sentencing for drugs used in primarily minority neighborhoods. 201 00:18:07,079 --> 00:18:11,160 I think, I say in the book, it left an entire generation of 202 00:18:11,200 --> 00:18:15,039 women with their asses hanging out on Figaroa Street. That's true, and they 203 00:18:15,079 --> 00:18:22,079 were just like fodder for predators. Cops would call this in as an NHI, 204 00:18:22,519 --> 00:18:27,000 no humans involved. There's been a one eighty seven on fifth and May 205 00:18:27,279 --> 00:18:33,759 or whatever. It's an NHI or simply a no one. So that's the 206 00:18:33,880 --> 00:18:40,559 failure of the criminal justice system. Now we go to the grand jury that 207 00:18:40,839 --> 00:18:48,359 failed to indict him in Pascagoula and also a murder that went to trial, 208 00:18:49,559 --> 00:18:56,960 and there were nuts eyewitnesses and this he had such specific things as a cast 209 00:18:56,160 --> 00:19:02,359 on his leg, and they just said, theseuses are not credible. There's 210 00:19:02,400 --> 00:19:07,160 not enough physical evidence. I'm like, what would be enough physical evidence other 211 00:19:07,200 --> 00:19:11,559 than your hair on her body? That hair could have been blown from. 212 00:19:11,599 --> 00:19:17,799 I'm like, it's us. It's us as a society, because if you're 213 00:19:17,799 --> 00:19:21,839 tried by a jury of your peers, that would be met. And those 214 00:19:21,920 --> 00:19:27,160 juries failed again and again. It wasn't like he was tried three times before 215 00:19:27,279 --> 00:19:33,880 the fourth they finally convicted him, and that's not including his juvenile convictions. 216 00:19:33,000 --> 00:19:38,079 So for killers like Samuel Little and Lonnie Franklin Junior, the Grim Sleeper in 217 00:19:38,160 --> 00:19:45,160 Los Angeles, they figured this out. They figure out if I focus on 218 00:19:45,680 --> 00:19:49,480 women at the margins, sex workers, people that are addicted to drugs, 219 00:19:49,720 --> 00:19:56,240 people that are women of color. These are people that I can pray on 220 00:19:56,799 --> 00:20:00,160 and no one's going to come looking for them if you will care. To 221 00:20:00,240 --> 00:20:04,799 the point where Sam just stopped even burying the bodies, he would murder the 222 00:20:04,839 --> 00:20:10,920 women in his car. I think he tried to body bury a body once 223 00:20:11,079 --> 00:20:14,839 and it was harder work that he thought it was going to be, and 224 00:20:15,599 --> 00:20:18,640 there was a foot sticking out and they found it and he thought it was 225 00:20:18,680 --> 00:20:23,559 all over for him. But then no one came for him. That's the 226 00:20:23,599 --> 00:20:27,240 thing. No one came for him, and he was like, oh gosh, 227 00:20:27,279 --> 00:20:33,279 maybe I can get away with this, and then yeah, absolutely, 228 00:20:33,599 --> 00:20:40,039 those particular killers focused in on marginalized women. Sam put it really well, 229 00:20:40,640 --> 00:20:44,200 he said, I know when I said to him, I had my hard 230 00:20:44,279 --> 00:20:49,119 times with drugs and with violent men, and I'm just really glad I never 231 00:20:49,200 --> 00:20:53,440 because he was like, you're my angel, You're my love. And I'd 232 00:20:53,440 --> 00:20:57,759 be like, yeah, you'd kill me in half a second. He's oh, 233 00:20:57,839 --> 00:21:03,720 yeah, app a second, and I was like, you know you 234 00:21:04,400 --> 00:21:07,960 and he said, no, I wouldn't kill you because I don't kill no 235 00:21:08,119 --> 00:21:12,960 governors or senators, and I'm quoting him here, I know this one or 236 00:21:14,000 --> 00:21:18,359 a New York journalists. It'd be all over the papers in a second. 237 00:21:18,160 --> 00:21:22,480 I killed women no one cared about. So I was going through And you've 238 00:21:22,480 --> 00:21:26,319 got a wonderful map at the front of the book where you talk about we 239 00:21:26,519 --> 00:21:30,559 mark off the different places where he was murdering women. So when my friend 240 00:21:30,680 --> 00:21:37,400 Kenzie made that map, and we really worked on it hard together because I 241 00:21:37,440 --> 00:21:40,160 was like, I don't just want to have I want to have something that 242 00:21:40,319 --> 00:21:45,519 feels, yeah, like of his travels, not just like a map. 243 00:21:45,319 --> 00:21:49,720 It's a wonderful illustration. I actually I found it really instructive. One of 244 00:21:49,759 --> 00:21:52,319 the things that I noticed. So, if you total up everything, he 245 00:21:52,400 --> 00:21:57,440 killed women in twenty six states and Washington, DC. Did he ever give 246 00:21:57,480 --> 00:22:02,559 you any insight as to why he spent more time in certain states than others? 247 00:22:02,680 --> 00:22:06,440 Like I noticed, for example, he didn't have any victims in Virginia. 248 00:22:06,720 --> 00:22:08,200 He did it in just about every other state in the South, but 249 00:22:08,279 --> 00:22:11,960 not Virginia. And he never went into the Northeast. I noticed that too. 250 00:22:12,279 --> 00:22:15,799 Did he ever tell you why, like why were some areas more of 251 00:22:15,839 --> 00:22:22,160 interest to him than others. You'd have to have known the history of these 252 00:22:22,720 --> 00:22:27,759 places at the time to really ask specifically. Like Pascoula, Mississippi had a 253 00:22:27,759 --> 00:22:33,640 place called Carver Village, and in Carver Village you get anything you wanted any 254 00:22:33,680 --> 00:22:38,480 time in the day or night. On one side was the projects. On 255 00:22:38,519 --> 00:22:44,920 the other side they called the Front. That was like guns, drugs, 256 00:22:45,160 --> 00:22:52,359 hookers, strippers, duke joints, And there was this sort of allure to 257 00:22:52,519 --> 00:22:56,599 the Front for people, certainly for Hilda, is how she explained it to 258 00:22:56,680 --> 00:23:00,720 me. One of his living victims just always have heard these stories about the 259 00:23:00,799 --> 00:23:06,000 Front, can keep herself away. But so if you see why he goes 260 00:23:06,039 --> 00:23:11,319 to Pascagoula so many times, it's because the Front. It's like getting a 261 00:23:11,920 --> 00:23:18,640 I don't know, Nickelodeon toys, r us shopping spree. He could just 262 00:23:18,720 --> 00:23:25,319 pick off women that would never be noticed again. And so I think a 263 00:23:25,319 --> 00:23:29,920 lot of the city he picked someone up. In New Orleans, Sarah Brown 264 00:23:30,359 --> 00:23:34,720 was one of his earlier victims. Now later so he was also traveling with 265 00:23:34,839 --> 00:23:38,799 his girlfriend much of this time. His girlfriend, Jean, he was with 266 00:23:40,000 --> 00:23:42,640 for fifteen years. He was thirty years older than him. She was a 267 00:23:42,680 --> 00:23:51,480 master shoplifter, like master shoplifter and half blind. She had a monocle and 268 00:23:51,519 --> 00:23:57,599 would literally military crawl and to like I can't remember what the like department store 269 00:23:57,839 --> 00:24:03,960 was at the time, I'm Nordstrums figure and just clear out a jewelry counter 270 00:24:04,160 --> 00:24:08,119 into this bag she'd sewn herself, I know. And it was like the 271 00:24:08,200 --> 00:24:15,759 invisibility. She's just an old, blind black woman. The invisibility she got 272 00:24:17,000 --> 00:24:21,319 from that, and so a lot of the cities they picked were because she 273 00:24:21,400 --> 00:24:26,599 could steal there and sell the goods like people would put in like Tina Turner 274 00:24:26,680 --> 00:24:30,079 would say, I want to Sergio Valente jump suit in a size ten, 275 00:24:30,559 --> 00:24:33,119 and she'd go get her one and sell it to her at half price. 276 00:24:33,799 --> 00:24:41,440 Yeah, Geane knew people. And then Sam would go steal a steak or 277 00:24:41,559 --> 00:24:45,759 run a red light or wind up and that's part of the length of the 278 00:24:45,880 --> 00:24:49,400 rap sheet. He would just go do something stupid, and he would call 279 00:24:49,440 --> 00:24:53,039 it that by day murder by night. He's like, all this time I 280 00:24:53,079 --> 00:24:57,880 was hiding. They just thought I was a petty piece, and they'd let 281 00:24:57,880 --> 00:25:03,400 me go and I go kill someone. You're listening to mind over Murder. 282 00:25:03,400 --> 00:25:15,759 We'll be right back after this word from our sponsors. We're back here at 283 00:25:15,839 --> 00:25:22,000 Mind over Murder. Did he ever get into why? What was in it 284 00:25:22,160 --> 00:25:30,759 for him to kill this amazing number of women? I know that's a strange 285 00:25:30,039 --> 00:25:34,519 place to go, but spoke to him so many times and for such length, 286 00:25:36,359 --> 00:25:41,400 did you ever get a satisfactory why? From your perspective? If you're 287 00:25:41,440 --> 00:25:47,559 asking me, why are there serial killers in humanity? Why does this manifest? 288 00:25:48,799 --> 00:25:53,759 There are numerous and I could tell you numerous theories. I think no 289 00:25:53,799 --> 00:26:00,920 one really has the why for that. Sam's why is it was sex. 290 00:26:00,119 --> 00:26:07,319 Strangulation was sex for him, There was no other sex. There were times 291 00:26:07,319 --> 00:26:11,319 where I was like pacing the kitchen leg What if the only way I could 292 00:26:11,359 --> 00:26:17,119 have sex was to kill people? Would I kill people? My husband would 293 00:26:17,160 --> 00:26:19,680 just take me by the arms and be like, Jillian, come back to 294 00:26:19,799 --> 00:26:25,480 Earth. No, you wouldn't. I have news for you. You wouldn't 295 00:26:26,279 --> 00:26:30,720 you've compassion for people. But that was essentially it. He became obsessed with 296 00:26:30,880 --> 00:26:37,599 necks, with strangulation, with a control of air, which is a tremendous 297 00:26:37,599 --> 00:26:44,240 amount of control. It's all about control. Every single one of them down 298 00:26:44,319 --> 00:26:49,599 the line will tell you they own their victims forever. In heaven or in 299 00:26:49,680 --> 00:26:53,039 some way or other, and that was Sam, She's in heaven or in 300 00:26:53,119 --> 00:26:56,920 hell. We're gonna have a big palace. We're all gonna live in together. 301 00:26:57,440 --> 00:27:02,799 And I was just like, oh, okay, sure, just put 302 00:27:02,839 --> 00:27:06,079 my name on one of those bunks. Can't wait. Actually, some of 303 00:27:06,079 --> 00:27:11,880 the victims they really would like a chance to hang out with because they're wonderful. 304 00:27:11,440 --> 00:27:15,519 But yeah, like he says, God made me as I was. 305 00:27:17,319 --> 00:27:21,079 That's another thing down the line. I almost always say I'm good with God. 306 00:27:21,880 --> 00:27:26,279 So I'm good. I've been forgiven, I've been saved, I've been 307 00:27:26,599 --> 00:27:30,240 Sam's arguments he was forgiven every time he killed someone because he prayed to God 308 00:27:30,480 --> 00:27:34,519 as he was killing them to forgive him. I know. I asked him, 309 00:27:34,640 --> 00:27:38,839 I said, do you think that they should have been forgiving you at 310 00:27:38,839 --> 00:27:42,359 that moment? And he was like, I would hate to see where they're 311 00:27:42,400 --> 00:27:47,960 going if they didn't. And that was when people say, like, what 312 00:27:48,079 --> 00:27:52,480 were the scariest or most disgusting moments like I would say when he said, 313 00:27:52,720 --> 00:27:59,799 basically, if these victims didn't forgive me while I was murdering them in an 314 00:28:00,599 --> 00:28:11,160 extended, intentionally painful way and often beating them, and very little rape as 315 00:28:11,279 --> 00:28:15,000 we would define it in terms of having a rape kit, it was still 316 00:28:15,119 --> 00:28:18,000 sexual assault. And for him to say, like if they didn't forgive him 317 00:28:18,039 --> 00:28:22,559 right at that moment, that they'd be going to hell. I could have 318 00:28:22,680 --> 00:28:29,000 crawled over that table and taking his eyes out. I just had such enough 319 00:28:29,079 --> 00:28:33,559 of it. But it's amazing to have had the opportunity to interview him for 320 00:28:33,599 --> 00:28:38,400 so long, because people don't get that. It's not the Gaytlies days of 321 00:28:38,599 --> 00:28:44,880 the Chiman Capoti days or the New York Girls send you out for a year 322 00:28:44,960 --> 00:28:48,880 or what turned into four years for Capote, but you get three hours with 323 00:28:48,000 --> 00:28:53,279 someone boom, Like this interview we're having with me right now, that's it. 324 00:28:53,480 --> 00:28:59,119 Like how much do you know about me from this? Enough to talk 325 00:28:59,160 --> 00:29:04,039 about Sam let all enough to know I had a fairly unconventional approach to the 326 00:29:04,160 --> 00:29:08,599 endeavor and that's something I really care about. But you'd have to talk to 327 00:29:08,640 --> 00:29:12,759 me for the next three years really good to know me. And that's the 328 00:29:12,880 --> 00:29:17,880 chance I had with Sam. That was what was really remarkable about it. 329 00:29:18,359 --> 00:29:22,359 How many times were you permitted to meet with him? Do you actually know 330 00:29:22,759 --> 00:29:26,039 how many visits? How many hours approximately? I can work it out because 331 00:29:26,079 --> 00:29:30,519 it's all like a million spreadsheets I made other people do for me. Yeah, 332 00:29:33,519 --> 00:29:38,240 we just give us a sense of how long these spreadsheets. There were 333 00:29:38,519 --> 00:29:45,839 maybe ten times before I got extradited and taken to Odessa or taken to Wise 334 00:29:45,960 --> 00:29:52,279 County, Texas for these interviewing confessions he was doing for the Texas Rangers and 335 00:29:52,559 --> 00:29:56,839 the FBI, and I thought that was going to be the last I saw 336 00:29:56,039 --> 00:29:59,400 him. I thought that was going to be the last of my article, 337 00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:04,200 and it was not. I wound up going down the Wise County Sheriff's office, 338 00:30:04,920 --> 00:30:07,759 which, as far as I could tell, had less security than my 339 00:30:07,839 --> 00:30:17,079 local high school. I was like, that's a jail. It was so 340 00:30:17,319 --> 00:30:22,920 wild West and everyone, we're in the real habitt cowboy ants and everything. 341 00:30:25,799 --> 00:30:32,440 You probably fit right in. I think on the second day I didn't shock 342 00:30:32,519 --> 00:30:37,640 them because I can talk to anybody. Everyone's something commons. I was like, 343 00:30:37,799 --> 00:30:42,839 Hi, Sheriff, acin, what's up. I don't think I surprised 344 00:30:42,839 --> 00:30:47,960 them much after the first day, and I think they do take their liberties. 345 00:30:48,079 --> 00:30:53,279 The Texas Strangers speaking about social justice, there's a lot of questions that 346 00:30:53,359 --> 00:30:59,359 the answer was because I'm the best and I wanted to. And then I'm 347 00:30:59,440 --> 00:31:04,559 talking about Texas ranger James Holland, who was the spearhead of the federal investigation 348 00:31:04,880 --> 00:31:11,799 and is well known as being the serial killer whisperer. He got the confession 349 00:31:12,119 --> 00:31:19,000 from William Reese, from Anthony Shore, a whole lot of scumbacks in Texas. 350 00:31:21,720 --> 00:31:25,920 I want to take a second and ask about some authorial choices here that 351 00:31:25,960 --> 00:31:29,759 you made that I thought were really interesting. When you sat down to write 352 00:31:29,799 --> 00:31:33,599 the book, you had some sections where you chose to write from the victims 353 00:31:33,799 --> 00:31:40,839 POV. How much of those are recreations, like based on fact from Sam 354 00:31:40,960 --> 00:31:45,279 Little's memory that he gave you, and how much was you channeling Truman Capote 355 00:31:45,880 --> 00:31:49,799 to do it here? Let me give you the victims POV. They're both 356 00:31:51,279 --> 00:31:56,880 right that they're definitely a hybrid of both those chapters. And what you're referring 357 00:31:56,920 --> 00:32:01,079 to is that I take this sort of audacious I do this audacious thing in 358 00:32:01,240 --> 00:32:07,359 a true crime book, and I write from the perspective of people who there's 359 00:32:07,440 --> 00:32:09,880 absolutely no way you could know what they were thinking at the end of their 360 00:32:09,920 --> 00:32:14,680 lives. I do know what they said, though, because yes, Sam 361 00:32:14,720 --> 00:32:20,640 told me the stories for the most part and also for the victims for whom 362 00:32:20,680 --> 00:32:27,759 I do deep dives. I often had family members who were cooperating with me. 363 00:32:28,240 --> 00:32:32,960 Pearl Unique Nelson as Ottter Nelson's daughter, and I spend hours with her 364 00:32:34,079 --> 00:32:39,920 looking through their photos. Denise Christie brothers, the Christie family was showed me 365 00:32:40,200 --> 00:32:46,119 her hands own costumes from high school in the attic and they were honest. 366 00:32:46,400 --> 00:32:53,200 And deb Duvall Alice Duvall's sisters a very close friend of mine, now actually 367 00:32:53,720 --> 00:33:00,039 counting on her to get my kid into Annapolis. I'm like having to go 368 00:33:00,119 --> 00:33:06,240 around get these recommendations for him, and you have to make friends with congresswomen 369 00:33:06,319 --> 00:33:09,319 and stuff, and I'm just like, come on, I know you can 370 00:33:09,400 --> 00:33:17,319 do it. Your husband's like some kind of whatever you are general huge something 371 00:33:21,720 --> 00:33:25,279 like. It was based on that too, those relationships that I developed, 372 00:33:25,279 --> 00:33:30,119 the things that they showed me, Like when I was fact checking those chapters, 373 00:33:30,160 --> 00:33:32,200 I was, I don't know, how do I fact check this? 374 00:33:32,440 --> 00:33:38,680 Called Jennifer Christie. I called Denise's daughter in law, and we had gone 375 00:33:38,680 --> 00:33:43,279 through her letters together and I was like, what do you think about I 376 00:33:43,319 --> 00:33:47,720 was like, is this right about this guy being abusive? What was our 377 00:33:49,480 --> 00:33:52,119 And she was like, yeah, don't you remember that letter that we read 378 00:33:52,160 --> 00:33:57,200 from her to her mother that was saying, help get me out of here. 379 00:33:57,799 --> 00:34:02,039 And it's that kind of evidence. It's soft evidence, right, soft 380 00:34:02,079 --> 00:34:07,720 but reliable. And also I heard the stories from Sam, all the ones 381 00:34:07,759 --> 00:34:12,280 I did a deep dive and and there's one which I use a particular like 382 00:34:12,559 --> 00:34:20,639 device of magical realism as well. I had sensitivity readers for these chapters because 383 00:34:20,679 --> 00:34:23,440 I was like, do I have the right to appropriate this voice? And 384 00:34:24,159 --> 00:34:28,199 every one of them said, yeah, do you did it well enough? 385 00:34:28,559 --> 00:34:32,960 You can do it? He was very well done. Yeah, But otherwise, 386 00:34:34,039 --> 00:34:37,400 how am I going to get Because my point here is to get you. 387 00:34:37,199 --> 00:34:42,960 I want to entertain you. I'm not necessarily make a smile, but 388 00:34:43,119 --> 00:34:45,639 I want to entertain you. I want to entrance you. I want to 389 00:34:45,679 --> 00:34:50,119 make it so you can't put this book down because I want to make you. 390 00:34:50,199 --> 00:34:52,679 Get to the end of this book and look at the list of the 391 00:34:52,800 --> 00:35:01,519 victims. I have the most the most correct list that I know of. 392 00:35:01,920 --> 00:35:06,159 Even if you look at the FBI, you look at their website, they 393 00:35:06,239 --> 00:35:10,960 only have unsolved they don't have the solved cases. They think that this is 394 00:35:12,880 --> 00:35:15,159 the best when I've seen, but I want everyone to get to the victims 395 00:35:15,199 --> 00:35:19,559 at the end, and I want them to feel it, like I want 396 00:35:19,599 --> 00:35:23,519 them to see the amount of pages you have to page through and to feel 397 00:35:23,559 --> 00:35:28,679 it by then. So that's why, like I said, I've never been 398 00:35:28,719 --> 00:35:32,039 on a soapbox with a book before, not like a message driven writer. 399 00:35:32,239 --> 00:35:38,800 I wrote a lot about just my experience, something that was fascinating and and 400 00:35:39,119 --> 00:35:46,760 also infuriating. But I would absolutely stand on a soapbox in downtown LA and 401 00:35:46,840 --> 00:35:52,000 tell people to buy this book. My boyfriend is not, in any way, 402 00:35:52,039 --> 00:35:54,360 shape or form a true crime reader. Like, he's a little mystified 403 00:35:54,360 --> 00:35:58,280 why I drew this at all. But I handed him this book and I 404 00:35:58,320 --> 00:36:01,400 said, just flip through the victim count at the end. And he was 405 00:36:01,440 --> 00:36:05,280 just flipping and he goes, oh my god, this is one guy. 406 00:36:05,639 --> 00:36:08,480 I said, Yeah. He goes, how the cracked medicals lice? Since 407 00:36:08,519 --> 00:36:13,599 you asked, and then I went into it. I think there's a magnetic 408 00:36:13,679 --> 00:36:17,840 polarity thing because, like my i'd have forced him to read this. I'd 409 00:36:17,880 --> 00:36:22,159 like put postmarks on it, like post it's that's it. It is actually 410 00:36:22,159 --> 00:36:30,079 really important to me that you read it. Did he ultimately, and he's 411 00:36:30,119 --> 00:36:32,480 doing it. He's doing it. He did Okay, he's in the middle. 412 00:36:34,239 --> 00:36:37,559 Okay. One of the things that's very striking to me in learning about 413 00:36:37,559 --> 00:36:44,480 the history of Samuel Little are these drawings and paintings of victims. How did 414 00:36:44,480 --> 00:36:51,559 the drawings and paintings come about and who actually created them? Well, Sam 415 00:36:51,679 --> 00:36:57,519 has been drawing since he was twenty years old and was in the Ohio State 416 00:36:57,519 --> 00:37:04,400 Reformatory and he was a middleweight boxer. There was a guy there who was 417 00:37:04,599 --> 00:37:08,320 really good at drawing, and Sam was enchanted with this, and he said, 418 00:37:08,440 --> 00:37:12,519 I want you to teach me to draw. And this is how this 419 00:37:12,519 --> 00:37:19,400 guy kept himself safe because he's drawing pictures of people's kids for their Christmas cards, 420 00:37:19,559 --> 00:37:22,360 right, And he said, I want you to teach me to fight. 421 00:37:22,320 --> 00:37:27,920 So they traded and that's when he learned, and he's been drawing since 422 00:37:27,960 --> 00:37:37,119 then. The victims specifically, there were drawings, but really he drew them 423 00:37:37,239 --> 00:37:42,079 during the confessions, many of them. I had a few that he had 424 00:37:42,119 --> 00:37:47,800 already drawn when I met him. So he would use these drawings to help 425 00:37:47,920 --> 00:37:52,519 confess, to hopefully help locate these victims, and some of them have been 426 00:37:52,559 --> 00:37:59,960 spot on and you did include some photos of those paintings throughout that center photos 427 00:38:00,039 --> 00:38:04,559 section of the book. Did you end up choosing the photos that were included 428 00:38:04,679 --> 00:38:08,400 in that middle photos section or was that like left your publisher who made the 429 00:38:08,400 --> 00:38:12,079 decisions on what photos you were going to put in and what you didn't. 430 00:38:12,760 --> 00:38:16,280 Everything gets edited, everything gets cut. But I did, yeah, because 431 00:38:16,280 --> 00:38:20,679 I was going through ten more pages if it was up to me, right, 432 00:38:20,800 --> 00:38:23,840 Okay, yeah, I was, Yeah, yeah, I was curious 433 00:38:23,880 --> 00:38:28,199 why you opted for some of them and why others ended up being left, 434 00:38:28,239 --> 00:38:30,719 and obviously you couldn't put all of them in there. I want to give 435 00:38:30,760 --> 00:38:35,440 an idea of the atmosphere in which you grew up, Like to show the 436 00:38:35,480 --> 00:38:39,440 Ohio St. Ja Reformatory, the largest steel cage, the largest freestanding steel 437 00:38:39,480 --> 00:38:45,280 cage in the world, show the map and the front, and show the 438 00:38:45,360 --> 00:38:49,679 victims are the ones that I got permission from the families. That was really 439 00:38:49,719 --> 00:38:55,079 important to me. And also like his cars were his, he called them 440 00:38:55,199 --> 00:39:00,840 his killing field. He mostly murdered women in the car, so I thought 441 00:39:00,840 --> 00:39:12,679 it was important to include that piece of poop pinto I hate that car so 442 00:39:12,800 --> 00:39:16,519 much, it was like it just came up in so many of the murders, 443 00:39:17,960 --> 00:39:23,159 and I also interviewed his surviving victims. Boy, that must have been 444 00:39:23,159 --> 00:39:29,760 an experience. Yeah, I included them. And yeah, there's that garbage 445 00:39:29,760 --> 00:39:36,519 pinto And there's a picture I have in here that is from the Omaha World 446 00:39:36,639 --> 00:39:40,000 Harald in nineteen seventy three, and this was one of the murders that I 447 00:39:40,039 --> 00:39:45,960 solved. I get the White Buffalo. There was just there because I talked 448 00:39:45,960 --> 00:39:50,239 to him for such a long time. There was details that he dropped to 449 00:39:50,280 --> 00:39:54,039 me that he had remembered at the moment, or he didn't feel like telling 450 00:39:54,199 --> 00:39:59,639 didn't like those police, or in any case, he told me that he 451 00:40:00,199 --> 00:40:05,119 her upside down, naked and a barrel behind it abandoned factory and it smelled 452 00:40:05,159 --> 00:40:09,920 bad. And then they find this article, which is so many times how 453 00:40:09,920 --> 00:40:15,719 we've connected it if on this article in November seventeenth, nineteen seventy three, 454 00:40:15,800 --> 00:40:22,000 which a Native American woman was found upside down and naked and a barrel behind 455 00:40:22,239 --> 00:40:27,920 an old tannery. So that was how they were able to connect the dots. 456 00:40:28,559 --> 00:40:31,360 In a situation like that, who do you go to with that information? 457 00:40:31,480 --> 00:40:36,280 It's not like you just call the cops in that particular city and say, 458 00:40:36,400 --> 00:40:38,960 yay, you do. Did they want to hear from you? Did 459 00:40:38,960 --> 00:40:43,920 they say who the heck are you know? So there was because this was 460 00:40:44,039 --> 00:40:51,480 a federal investigation, there was the like high authority, and I would go 461 00:40:51,760 --> 00:40:58,239 to Mita Mitzi Roberts here in the LAPD, or go to Jim Holland or 462 00:40:58,360 --> 00:41:01,039 go to the Department of Jess. That's who I give too. Yeah, 463 00:41:01,079 --> 00:41:07,079 I mean there have been times when I called MIAMIPD directly, and especially after 464 00:41:07,119 --> 00:41:10,960 the article had already come out, and so people knew who I was. 465 00:41:12,519 --> 00:41:15,679 So that gave you a little bit of credibility in terms of initiating that conversation. 466 00:41:15,880 --> 00:41:22,320 You're just not like some exactly. Or even better, get a cop 467 00:41:22,400 --> 00:41:25,880 to call them and provide the I get another cop to call them and say, 468 00:41:25,880 --> 00:41:30,960 this journalist is going to be calling you. She has That's what Rick 469 00:41:30,039 --> 00:41:35,599 Jackson did for me in Long Beach, where it was the case I solved 470 00:41:35,679 --> 00:41:40,880 bottom to top Alice jud And that is very unusual saying if done before by 471 00:41:42,000 --> 00:41:45,639 journalists. So I had Rick, Who's Harry Bosch, who's the real life 472 00:41:45,639 --> 00:41:54,159 Harry Bosch and is retired but has connections and his passion is volunteering doing cold 473 00:41:54,199 --> 00:42:00,239 case work for a different departments while across California. He's amazing. He called 474 00:42:00,320 --> 00:42:06,320 Long Beach for me and said, this is what she found. This is 475 00:42:06,320 --> 00:42:12,760 a credible human. Can you imagine how many cookie tips they can When I 476 00:42:12,840 --> 00:42:15,320 used to joke with Mitzi, you know, because she had the Black Delia 477 00:42:15,360 --> 00:42:21,320 case. That's she is the custodian of the Black Delia case. Every cold 478 00:42:21,400 --> 00:42:27,960 case has a custodian. Sheila just couldn't resist. She loves like historic La 479 00:42:28,119 --> 00:42:32,800 crime. But that's a bad gig. No one wants that gig because seven 480 00:42:32,920 --> 00:42:37,719 people call every day saying my father killed the Black Dalia. So I used 481 00:42:38,440 --> 00:42:43,079 to joke with her that I was just gonna start calling in and they have 482 00:42:43,360 --> 00:42:46,320 to look up every tip. I used to joke with her that I was 483 00:42:46,360 --> 00:42:51,880 going to start calling in I saw the Black Delia shoe in Griffith Park. 484 00:42:52,239 --> 00:42:55,199 But especially with the case like the Black Delia. Though we are going back 485 00:42:55,400 --> 00:43:00,679 decades now, there is that case will never be sold. There's no DNA, 486 00:43:00,800 --> 00:43:05,440 there's no DNA in the stamps. There's no reason to prioritize it other 487 00:43:05,639 --> 00:43:09,719 than the fact that it has a cold Tish following, but yes, so 488 00:43:10,320 --> 00:43:15,480 they get cookie tips every day. So I'm going to call and be like 489 00:43:15,920 --> 00:43:21,880 I soppd a murder. But Rick called and he called me back, and 490 00:43:22,239 --> 00:43:28,000 it was just it was like such a memorable moment in my life. And 491 00:43:28,039 --> 00:43:31,079 he said, are you sitting down? Here's this like a way about him 492 00:43:31,239 --> 00:43:36,440 and my book released part. It was like all the women flocked to Rick 493 00:43:36,639 --> 00:43:40,360 in the corner. My assistant was like, I want to be like that 494 00:43:40,559 --> 00:43:45,079 when I grew up, Like I just stand there and people come to me. 495 00:43:46,400 --> 00:43:51,760 I was like, it's you should probably do some really crazy stuff, 496 00:43:51,800 --> 00:43:57,599 Ben. But he called back and he said he's sitting down. He said, 497 00:43:57,679 --> 00:44:00,760 this case is still open. And I had a name on this one. 498 00:44:01,000 --> 00:44:05,320 That was one thing I had that really made me focus in on it, 499 00:44:05,639 --> 00:44:08,199 Alice, because I always remember her name is Alice. It's a really 500 00:44:08,280 --> 00:44:13,039 pretty name. It is really pretty name, and but he mostly didn't have 501 00:44:13,119 --> 00:44:15,320 any of their name, so it was one of the reasons I focused on 502 00:44:15,400 --> 00:44:22,440 this. And he's there, this case is still open. It is everything 503 00:44:22,239 --> 00:44:28,599 lines up the articles you found, the spot where the body was dumb, 504 00:44:28,760 --> 00:44:32,280 the way it was described. He's like, and her name is Alice Deniece 505 00:44:32,440 --> 00:44:38,360 to Ball and I like, and just so happened. I am also in 506 00:44:38,400 --> 00:44:44,320 a documentary, my book Behold the Monster is coming out. The documentary Confronting 507 00:44:44,320 --> 00:44:50,920 a serial Killer streaming across most platforms now, and they were there for that 508 00:44:51,000 --> 00:44:55,719 moment. They were following me around as I did my investigation, and they 509 00:44:55,760 --> 00:45:00,239 were there for the moment. Sometimes I was just like gos doing documentary. 510 00:45:00,360 --> 00:45:05,760 It's a little rough, like havvy camera up your nose, Like I have 511 00:45:05,840 --> 00:45:08,119 a scar on my face. I was just like, get your camera out 512 00:45:08,159 --> 00:45:13,119 of my scar. It feels really vulnerable. But that moment, like I'm 513 00:45:13,159 --> 00:45:16,559 so proud to have on camera. It was worth the whole thing. I 514 00:45:16,719 --> 00:45:21,840 just look like stunned and I was like, oh my god, I mean 515 00:45:21,880 --> 00:45:27,159 that it doesn't mean that necessarily it's totally solved me and that I and he's 516 00:45:27,280 --> 00:45:35,119 you know what, kiddo, you solved the murder. It was so cool. 517 00:45:36,639 --> 00:45:38,320 It was so cool. And then there were times that I was feeling 518 00:45:38,320 --> 00:45:42,519 really down and I would talk to Rick and he's just don't give up on 519 00:45:42,599 --> 00:45:47,840 me now, and I was like, okay, dude, Like Harry Bosh 520 00:45:47,960 --> 00:45:53,039 says, don't give up, don't give up, Jillian. This is a 521 00:45:53,119 --> 00:45:58,400 hard project to top. Who are you going to take a break from true 522 00:45:58,400 --> 00:46:02,239 crime after this very long and I'm sure emotionally draining project or has this just 523 00:46:02,320 --> 00:46:08,480 made you want to do more? I'm both obsessed and I also want to 524 00:46:08,480 --> 00:46:15,280 take a horseback riding trip through the center of Mongolia where you get to do 525 00:46:15,440 --> 00:46:22,159 falconry, and like, it doesn't get it never gets more boring. So 526 00:46:22,239 --> 00:46:27,079 whatever happens next, I have a lot of fascinating ideas, but I do 527 00:46:27,320 --> 00:46:30,840 think. And when I talked to when I talked to de Duval, Alice's 528 00:46:30,880 --> 00:46:37,400 sister, at one point I said, I think maybe I don't know. 529 00:46:37,519 --> 00:46:40,960 I want to just go do dressage the rest of my life. If I 530 00:46:42,039 --> 00:46:45,880 don't think I can, I don't think I can do this anymore. And 531 00:46:45,960 --> 00:46:50,880 she's we don't always get to decide what we do. It comes to us. 532 00:46:51,000 --> 00:46:55,519 And you clearly have a talent for this, and you have soothed so 533 00:46:55,599 --> 00:47:00,079 many families, and I just what am I going to say to that. 534 00:47:00,440 --> 00:47:02,480 I don't get to say no to her. I don't know, one of 535 00:47:02,480 --> 00:47:07,599 those old babels or something. If you save someone's life, you're indebted to 536 00:47:07,719 --> 00:47:13,199 them forever. I feel like you selve somebody's family murder. You are indebted 537 00:47:13,239 --> 00:47:15,920 to them forever. Oh, it sounds a lot like a calling, which 538 00:47:15,960 --> 00:47:20,599 I think is very interesting. But you're obviously very well suited to it. 539 00:47:20,840 --> 00:47:23,760 So the book is Behold the Monster can friend of America's most prolific serial killer. 540 00:47:23,800 --> 00:47:28,039 But Jillian Lauren Jillen, Where can everybody find the book? You can 541 00:47:28,079 --> 00:47:31,239 find the book in airports, you can find the book in all your favorite 542 00:47:31,280 --> 00:47:37,320 indie booksellers, Amazon, anywhere. You can also get it through my website. 543 00:47:37,639 --> 00:47:43,440 We have some great incentive. We have really awesome I wish I was 544 00:47:43,480 --> 00:47:50,239 wearing, but amazing necklace a friend of mine designed, and other groovy things 545 00:47:50,280 --> 00:47:52,920 you can get if you check in through my website. So that's Jillian Lauren 546 00:47:53,000 --> 00:47:57,880 dot com. Excellent. That's gonna do it for this episode of mind Never 547 00:47:57,960 --> 00:48:00,440 Murder. Thank you so much for listening. We'll see you next time. 548 00:48:09,960 --> 00:48:15,719 Mind Over Murder is a production of Absolute Zero and Another Dog Productions. Our 549 00:48:15,800 --> 00:48:22,079 executive producers are Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilley. Our logo art is by Pamela 550 00:48:22,239 --> 00:48:27,639 Arnois. Our theme music is by Kevin McLeod. Mind Over Murder is distributed 551 00:48:27,679 --> 00:48:31,800 in partnership with Coral Space Media. You can follow us on Facebook, Twitter, 552 00:48:32,000 --> 00:48:37,159 or Instagram. You can also follow our page on the Colonial Parkway murders 553 00:48:37,159 --> 00:48:40,519 on Facebook, and finally, you can follow Bill Thomas on Twitter at Bill 554 00:48:40,599 --> 00:49:00,320 Thomas. Five six. Thank you for listening to Mind Over Murder. H