WEBVTT 1 00:00:17.519 --> 00:00:21.640 Welcome to the Wellness Transcription Podcast. I'm your host, doctor Patrick Gurley. 2 00:00:21.920 --> 00:00:25.280 Are you guys ready to grow together in our understanding of all things health and 3 00:00:25.320 --> 00:00:29.320 wellness? If so, you found the right podcast for you. Each week, 4 00:00:29.399 --> 00:00:33.119 we will give you access to evidence, space, nutrition and lifestyle content 5 00:00:33.200 --> 00:00:36.280 that you can use to help improve the long term health and wellness goals for 6 00:00:36.320 --> 00:00:39.439 you and your entire family. You can find us on any of your favorite 7 00:00:39.479 --> 00:00:43.799 podcasting platforms, so please don't forget to like, subscribe and follow the show 8 00:00:43.840 --> 00:00:47.280 so you don't miss out on any of our weekly episodes or special guest interviews. 9 00:00:47.600 --> 00:01:00.439 Now let's get into today's episode. For the first episode of the Wellness 10 00:01:00.439 --> 00:01:03.599 Transcription Podcasts, I've got our first real guests on, and he's near and 11 00:01:03.640 --> 00:01:07.560 dear in my heart because I'm biased, he's my dad. But I'm gonna 12 00:01:07.560 --> 00:01:11.480 give you a brief background on doctor Bill Gurley real quick. We're gonna be 13 00:01:11.480 --> 00:01:14.359 talking about dietary supplements today. It's a hot topic that not a lot of 14 00:01:14.400 --> 00:01:17.840 people have expertise on, but he's one of the leading experts in the country 15 00:01:17.879 --> 00:01:22.159 when it comes to this stuff. So doctor Gurley's a professor and principal scientists 16 00:01:22.159 --> 00:01:26.200 at the National Center for Natural Products for SEARTY at the University of Mississippi. 17 00:01:26.400 --> 00:01:30.519 He's also the chair of the University of Mississippi Institutional Animal Care and Use Committee. 18 00:01:32.000 --> 00:01:36.239 Prior to joining nc NPR in twenty nineteen, doctor Gurley was a professor 19 00:01:36.239 --> 00:01:40.959 of pharmaceutical Sciences at UAMS, the University of Arkansas for Medical Science and a 20 00:01:41.040 --> 00:01:44.560 Little Rock, Arkansas, where he taught me in Pharmacy School. He was 21 00:01:44.599 --> 00:01:49.239 the vice chair of the UMS Department of Pharmaceutical Sciences the chair of the UMS 22 00:01:49.319 --> 00:01:53.439 Institutional Animal Care and Use Committee. Doctor girl has been conducting basic and clinical 23 00:01:53.439 --> 00:02:00.000 research on various aspects of dietary supplements, supplement efficacy, and safety for almost 24 00:02:00.120 --> 00:02:05.319 thirty years. His research on a federc containing dietary supplements was used by the 25 00:02:05.400 --> 00:02:07.960 FDA to remove those products from the US market back in two thousand and four. 26 00:02:08.759 --> 00:02:15.080 He was the first investigator to systematically evaluate herb drug interaction potential for popular 27 00:02:15.280 --> 00:02:21.080 dietary supplements and then assess the clinical relevance of those interactions. Accordingly, his 28 00:02:21.199 --> 00:02:25.439 research team was the first to document serious clinical repercussions of herb drug interactions involving 29 00:02:25.439 --> 00:02:32.360 Saint John's warp Doctor Gurley's research interests include pharmacokinetics, mechanisms of herb drug interactions, 30 00:02:32.400 --> 00:02:38.680 toxicity of multiple component herbal dietary supplements, phytochemical modulation of human drug metabolizing 31 00:02:38.759 --> 00:02:44.879 enzymes and transport proteins, and human phytochemical disposition, all of which have been 32 00:02:44.919 --> 00:02:50.120 subject of more than two hundred peer reviewed scientific publications. He's also a member 33 00:02:50.120 --> 00:02:53.840 of the United States Pharmacopeia's Expert Panel and Dietary Supplements and as an advisor to 34 00:02:53.879 --> 00:03:00.000 the American Botanical Council and a co editor of the American Herbal Products Association's Botanical 35 00:03:00.199 --> 00:03:05.039 Safety Handbook. He sits on the editorial boards for the journals of Clinical Pharmacology 36 00:03:05.080 --> 00:03:09.039 and Therapeutics, Fido Medicine, Herbal Graham, and Clinical Therapeutics. Doctor Gurley 37 00:03:09.039 --> 00:03:15.080 received his Bachelors of Science and chemistry from Tennessee Tech University, and a bachelor's 38 00:03:15.080 --> 00:03:19.080 and Metchelors of Science and Pharmacy and a PhD and Pharmaceutics from the University of 39 00:03:19.599 --> 00:03:23.719 Tennessee Health Science Center in Memphis, Tennessee. So, without further ado, 40 00:03:23.919 --> 00:03:25.520 we're gonna get into it. Dad, Thank you for being here. I 41 00:03:25.560 --> 00:03:30.439 appreciate it. This is the first real special guest interview, and I couldn't 42 00:03:30.439 --> 00:03:34.120 think of a better person to have on So I appreciate you being here. 43 00:03:34.439 --> 00:03:37.159 Well, it's absolutely on Or Patrick. I'm very proud of you. You've 44 00:03:37.159 --> 00:03:40.879 done. You've done. You've done Yeoman's work with regards to getting out the 45 00:03:40.879 --> 00:03:47.759 word to the public about the real the real science and interpreting both good science 46 00:03:47.759 --> 00:03:53.240 and the bad science. It's associated with dietary somethinge. So my hat's off 47 00:03:53.240 --> 00:03:54.639 to you. Not a lot of people are doing this, and I think 48 00:03:54.639 --> 00:04:00.159 it's I think it's a great service to the public to allow them to make 49 00:04:00.240 --> 00:04:06.280 sense out of all the craziness it's out there regarding dietary supplements. So you 50 00:04:06.319 --> 00:04:09.840 taught us in school. I mean, they don't really do a great job 51 00:04:10.000 --> 00:04:13.479 as far as curriculum goes for prepping you on dietary supplements. And we get 52 00:04:13.520 --> 00:04:16.439 asked that all the time. So it's definitely an area I think as pharmacist. 53 00:04:16.480 --> 00:04:19.120 For pharmacists, it's kind of daunting because we're like, I don't know 54 00:04:19.279 --> 00:04:25.839 this part. So it's cool to have someone to grow up my whole life 55 00:04:25.839 --> 00:04:29.480 with someone who's who's used to these kinds of things and does this research has 56 00:04:29.480 --> 00:04:31.600 made it easier for me. Yes, it's a great point, and that 57 00:04:31.759 --> 00:04:36.600 is it's difficult enough for healthcare professionals, whether you're a pharmacist or a nerse 58 00:04:36.720 --> 00:04:42.120 or a physician, to keep up with all the conventional medications and the potential 59 00:04:42.120 --> 00:04:46.160 interactions with those you know, and so now you throw in tens of thousands 60 00:04:46.199 --> 00:04:51.319 of dietary supplements, and you know, it's just an overwhelming task to kind 61 00:04:51.319 --> 00:04:55.480 of get your head around. And so a lot of healthcare professionals either ignore 62 00:04:55.519 --> 00:04:58.199 them all together or just say no, they're all horrible and don't take them 63 00:04:58.199 --> 00:05:00.560 at all. They're one, they don't have any they don't have any efficacy 64 00:05:00.639 --> 00:05:04.519 or there or there, or they're unsafe, which is just the farthest thing 65 00:05:04.639 --> 00:05:10.319 from the truth. The vast majority of dietary soltments are very safe. Sometimes 66 00:05:10.399 --> 00:05:13.040 their efficacy can be questionable, and that's when we can get into that a 67 00:05:13.040 --> 00:05:18.800 little bit later as we go forward. But it behoves pharmacists to understand what 68 00:05:18.879 --> 00:05:24.399 it is that you're carrying on the front end of your store, because a 69 00:05:24.439 --> 00:05:30.759 lot of a lot of pharmacists carried dietary soltments and it always as surprised, 70 00:05:30.040 --> 00:05:33.720 Yes, they carry these products in their in their stores, but oftentimes they 71 00:05:33.720 --> 00:05:39.319 know very little about them, and so it's up to people like yourself and 72 00:05:39.360 --> 00:05:45.879 myself to try to edge account only the healthcare professionals, but also the public 73 00:05:45.920 --> 00:05:48.319 with regards to some of the good things and some of the not so good 74 00:05:48.319 --> 00:05:55.160 things about dietary soltoments. Yeah, I again, we get I'd say a 75 00:05:55.439 --> 00:06:00.439 vast majority of our business where I work here in Austin is supplement consold, 76 00:06:00.480 --> 00:06:03.319 so we do them on a daily basis and occasionally since we've been since I've 77 00:06:03.319 --> 00:06:09.240 started working there, there's been more collaboration between the wellness department in US in 78 00:06:09.360 --> 00:06:13.399 terms of drug interactions, and having those conversations is crucial piece that I think 79 00:06:14.079 --> 00:06:17.199 is missed a lot of time. But again, I there's this kind of 80 00:06:17.279 --> 00:06:21.160 natural conception of Okay, supplements aren't that bad because they're natural, right, 81 00:06:21.199 --> 00:06:26.399 they can't really hurt me now. Well, Whereas whereas drugs, people are 82 00:06:26.480 --> 00:06:29.120 kind of skeptical still you know, what side effects am I going to have? 83 00:06:29.199 --> 00:06:31.560 Are they going to work? You know, especially now with how you 84 00:06:31.600 --> 00:06:36.519 know different drugs and vaccines and stuff have gone recently, that skepticism is just 85 00:06:36.560 --> 00:06:42.920 getting higher. Whereas supplements people are more comfortable maybe not being familiar with them. 86 00:06:44.399 --> 00:06:46.639 Yeah. Well, so what I want to as you well know, 87 00:06:46.240 --> 00:06:51.839 and what a lot of pharmacists understand, is that the vast majority of medications 88 00:06:53.480 --> 00:06:59.279 up until about No. Ten or time about fifteen or twenty years ago have 89 00:06:59.399 --> 00:07:02.600 their origin and natural products. So I mean half the medications that are on 90 00:07:02.639 --> 00:07:08.879 the market now are either natural product, are either isolated from as as natural 91 00:07:08.879 --> 00:07:13.279 products, or derivatives of natural products. And so so if you have that 92 00:07:13.839 --> 00:07:17.560 concept that conventional medications are are bad and sultments are good, you have to 93 00:07:17.600 --> 00:07:20.199 realize that they all pretty much come from the same source. So they're all 94 00:07:20.240 --> 00:07:26.439 have the same origins in many regards. So now with that in mind, 95 00:07:26.879 --> 00:07:31.399 um, you know, just because something is so quote unquote natural, h 96 00:07:31.560 --> 00:07:35.240 does that make it? Does that make it more so more? Um more 97 00:07:35.279 --> 00:07:40.839 even affications for that matter. Really, Um, you know, something that 98 00:07:41.000 --> 00:07:44.199 always always throw out there is that, well, you know, help poison, 99 00:07:44.439 --> 00:07:47.160 poison, mushrooms and rattlesnakes are natural, but you know you've got to 100 00:07:47.199 --> 00:07:50.920 be able to treat them properly and in order to in order to you know. 101 00:07:51.040 --> 00:07:54.839 So, but again, the vast majority doctor assultments that are on the 102 00:07:54.879 --> 00:07:59.480 market are quite safe. Again, their efficacy sometimes can be question depends upon 103 00:07:59.639 --> 00:08:01.639 the source of the dietary Suttman and I hope we can get into that. 104 00:08:01.680 --> 00:08:05.000 We can talk about, you know, what to look for and what not 105 00:08:05.079 --> 00:08:09.519 to look for. But but you know, I have heard this many times 106 00:08:09.600 --> 00:08:13.399 from from most of the times consumers that oh, they're natural and they're safe, 107 00:08:13.439 --> 00:08:16.800 and they're not you know, and they're much more safe than conventional medications, 108 00:08:16.879 --> 00:08:22.240 which in some regards is true because when you talk about convensional medica talking 109 00:08:22.519 --> 00:08:28.639 usually about one. But they're active pharmaceutical ingredient and it's fairly concentrated, and 110 00:08:28.720 --> 00:08:31.080 you know, and so we understood. But what we did. The interesting 111 00:08:31.120 --> 00:08:39.320 thing about, for the the most valuable thing about convenial medications is that they're 112 00:08:39.320 --> 00:08:43.240 going through the ringer for the most part with regards to to the research understand 113 00:08:43.440 --> 00:08:48.919 behind their safety and efficacy. You know, so before a convisional medication comes 114 00:08:48.919 --> 00:08:56.000 on the market, it's supposed to have gone through rigorous um preclinical studies. 115 00:08:56.720 --> 00:09:01.039 Now I'm gonna I will say this much like the conventional vaccines that are on 116 00:09:01.080 --> 00:09:05.120 the market. Now that's a whole different animal. That's that kind of kind 117 00:09:05.120 --> 00:09:09.399 of dad an end run around the whole, the whole approach to drug regulations 118 00:09:09.399 --> 00:09:11.440 that we can get it. I'm not going to get into that right now. 119 00:09:11.519 --> 00:09:13.720 Yeah, I share your sentiment there too, but yeah, fast track 120 00:09:13.759 --> 00:09:18.120 cracking drugs definitely occurs. I don't think people really realize just how common that 121 00:09:18.159 --> 00:09:24.240 can be. However, it seems to be more accepted now now that some 122 00:09:24.360 --> 00:09:28.960 things that normally would take years to get on the market now are now here 123 00:09:28.120 --> 00:09:33.279 under emergency you thought use authorizations, so right, and sometimes that's a good 124 00:09:33.320 --> 00:09:37.960 thing, and sometimes it's an absolute Pandora's box, you know, um, 125 00:09:39.039 --> 00:09:41.600 and so it might look good on on the front end, and but then 126 00:09:41.639 --> 00:09:46.519 you never you never, ever, ever really know the safety profile of conventional 127 00:09:46.559 --> 00:09:50.600 medication until it gets out into the consuming public for a couple of right, 128 00:09:50.759 --> 00:09:54.639 That's that's an important distinction for sure. That's when you're really fat, whether 129 00:09:54.720 --> 00:09:58.399 or not your drug is either efficacious or to say, yeah so anyway. 130 00:09:58.440 --> 00:10:05.720 But but that aside, Unlike conventional medications, which apart from the vaccines, 131 00:10:07.320 --> 00:10:11.600 do have to undergo rigorous safety and safety and efficacy tests part of the market, 132 00:10:13.000 --> 00:10:18.759 dietary sophtomos don't have to do that, and so um and so consumers 133 00:10:18.759 --> 00:10:20.720 have a tendency to think that, oh, well they're they're they're they're on 134 00:10:20.799 --> 00:10:24.799 the shelves right next to my eyeberprofen in my time at all, then they 135 00:10:24.879 --> 00:10:30.639 must have gone through the same type of safety and efficacy studies and that's not 136 00:10:30.679 --> 00:10:35.440 necessarily the case. Um and so we can we can talk about hyas, 137 00:10:35.600 --> 00:10:41.159 but it's just a nature of the beast. Um. But but so point 138 00:10:41.240 --> 00:10:48.120 consumers that assume that they're regulated just like conventional medications. In many respects they 139 00:10:48.120 --> 00:10:50.399 are. In some respects they're not. And you also have a lot of 140 00:10:50.399 --> 00:10:54.320 healthcare professionals that just go, oh, they're not regulating all they're you know, 141 00:10:54.360 --> 00:10:58.879 they're they're so no, so what's the truth. Well, the truth 142 00:10:58.000 --> 00:11:03.480 is they are regulated. They're regulated by the Food and Drug Administration just like 143 00:11:03.559 --> 00:11:09.720 conventional medications. It's just that the regulations are not as rigorous as they are 144 00:11:09.840 --> 00:11:15.000 for conventional medications. And the reason for that is because of a legislative act 145 00:11:15.240 --> 00:11:18.279 that allowed these types of products to be on the market, and that's the 146 00:11:18.320 --> 00:11:22.960 Dietary Suptment, Health and Education Act that was enacted by Congress in nineteen ninety 147 00:11:22.960 --> 00:11:28.120 four, and basically what what and it's often the Dietary Suptment Health and Education 148 00:11:28.200 --> 00:11:31.080 Act. The acronym is ad Shay or de Shay, depending on what part 149 00:11:31.080 --> 00:11:37.559 of the country you're from. And what that did is it defined dietary suptoments 150 00:11:37.600 --> 00:11:45.039 as being distinct from conventional medications. And so basically what a dietary suptment is. 151 00:11:45.080 --> 00:11:48.879 It's a it's a basically, it's a litany of things. It's a 152 00:11:48.120 --> 00:11:56.279 um an herb, betanal ab alte um, and there's a some servers basically 153 00:11:56.360 --> 00:12:01.559 intended to that. It's not intended to treat, cure, mitigate, or 154 00:12:01.639 --> 00:12:05.159 prevent a disease. All right, So you can have a there's it's a 155 00:12:05.279 --> 00:12:07.639 very broad and encompassing definition, and a lot of things can fall out of 156 00:12:07.639 --> 00:12:16.279 the definition of a dietary supple. You cannot unless you have gone through all 157 00:12:16.320 --> 00:12:20.159 the rigorous studies to make a claim. You know, really, if you 158 00:12:20.200 --> 00:12:24.600 look at any dietary supplement label, you know, at the very body it'll 159 00:12:24.600 --> 00:12:28.519 say this, this statement has not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Adminstration, 160 00:12:28.799 --> 00:12:33.039 and it's not intended to diagnose, treat, pure, prevent, or 161 00:12:33.080 --> 00:12:37.879 mitigate any disease. And so the vast majority of dietary submings that are on 162 00:12:37.919 --> 00:12:45.480 the market, that are supplied by scrupulous facturers will adhere to that. But 163 00:12:45.600 --> 00:12:48.240 you get a lot as a lot of junk out there too. Um, 164 00:12:48.440 --> 00:12:54.519 and that's where and those those it's those problematic products that have put a stigma 165 00:12:54.759 --> 00:12:58.039 on the whole industry. Yeah. I that's one thing that I try to 166 00:12:58.039 --> 00:13:01.279 tell people is not just like not all drugs are created equally, not all 167 00:13:01.320 --> 00:13:05.720 supplements are created equally either, And it really and with if you don't know 168 00:13:05.840 --> 00:13:09.639 or seek out people who do know these things, it's very hard to determine 169 00:13:09.639 --> 00:13:13.080 what you should spend your money on because, let's be honest, dietary suppments 170 00:13:13.080 --> 00:13:16.720 aren't covered under insurance. So it's a it's oftentimes, I mean, for 171 00:13:16.799 --> 00:13:22.000 a ninety day supply of the dietary suppment, it's vastly more expensive than say 172 00:13:22.080 --> 00:13:28.960 a ninety day supplavage generic medication to to to say target some sort of disease 173 00:13:30.000 --> 00:13:33.279 state that one patient may have or not. Yeah, that's a good point. 174 00:13:33.360 --> 00:13:35.399 Yeah, I mean, it's it's one of those things. It's like, 175 00:13:35.440 --> 00:13:39.480 okay, but again, you know, there's you don't really see. 176 00:13:39.559 --> 00:13:43.159 You do see quite a few patients get really worked up when insurance doesn't cover 177 00:13:43.200 --> 00:13:46.399 a medication, or they're deductible isn't met or a cope is higher than they 178 00:13:46.399 --> 00:13:48.919 expect. But that forty five dollars supplements sitting on the shelf, they don't 179 00:13:48.960 --> 00:13:52.840 think twice about it. So, yeah, it's kind of a weird phenomenon 180 00:13:52.879 --> 00:13:56.000 that you have two of these things playing on and on, and but you've 181 00:13:56.039 --> 00:13:58.440 answered like four or five of the questions I had. I was going to 182 00:13:58.480 --> 00:14:01.279 ask you about the Dietary Suppment, Health and Education Act. What all that 183 00:14:01.320 --> 00:14:05.320 meant? Yeah, next year it is going to be the thirtieth anniversary of 184 00:14:05.399 --> 00:14:07.720 the of the enactment of the Dictory something Health and Education Act. So um 185 00:14:09.840 --> 00:14:13.919 uh. And there, you know, there's some movement of food that you 186 00:14:13.960 --> 00:14:18.919 know, there may be some some amendments to that. You know, I'm 187 00:14:18.960 --> 00:14:22.039 not sure how, I'm not sure if that's going to come to fruition or 188 00:14:22.080 --> 00:14:26.279 not. But um, you know, it allowed dietary something to come on 189 00:14:26.320 --> 00:14:31.679 the market. And the most of your scrupulous manufacturer, you know, they 190 00:14:31.759 --> 00:14:35.360 put out good products, but there's a lot of junk out there too, 191 00:14:35.639 --> 00:14:41.480 and you just it's up to pharmacists and people like your of course you're a 192 00:14:41.480 --> 00:14:43.120 pharmacist as well, but you're also you know, you bring a lot more 193 00:14:43.120 --> 00:14:46.480 to the table because you also understand nutrition very well. Not a lot of 194 00:14:46.480 --> 00:14:52.919 pharmacists understand that. And um, so being able to wade through the mine 195 00:14:52.960 --> 00:14:58.519 field that's that is a mine field of dietary and so it's it's um not 196 00:14:58.639 --> 00:15:03.639 a lot of you know. I I'm actually glad that you're that your customers 197 00:15:03.799 --> 00:15:05.879 you have access because you you kind of get it, you know, But 198 00:15:07.039 --> 00:15:11.200 a vast majority of pharmacists out there, I have no idea when it comes 199 00:15:11.200 --> 00:15:15.279 to dietary suftments and whether or not they're safe, efficacious, how they interacts 200 00:15:15.360 --> 00:15:18.159 on and so forth, which brands to buy, which brands to stock on 201 00:15:18.240 --> 00:15:20.279 your shelves, that kind of stuff. Yeah, So we'll get into that 202 00:15:20.320 --> 00:15:22.639 because at kind of the end, I don't want to I like to have, 203 00:15:22.799 --> 00:15:26.879 you know, real life applications for people. So I don't want to 204 00:15:26.080 --> 00:15:28.440 just say things and then go, well, they didn't tell me what brands 205 00:15:28.440 --> 00:15:31.679 were good or what to look for. So we'll get into we'll get into 206 00:15:31.759 --> 00:15:35.159 that and kind of that towards the end of the episode, But I really 207 00:15:35.159 --> 00:15:37.759 want so before we get into we could mean you could talk all night long. 208 00:15:37.799 --> 00:15:41.799 I mean that we do that quite frequently about these topics because you're the 209 00:15:41.919 --> 00:15:45.279 we're we get it. But I want to know kind of what got you 210 00:15:45.320 --> 00:15:48.600 interested, not only in pharmacy in general, but in your PhD path? 211 00:15:48.720 --> 00:15:52.960 But like how why supplements? Why not? You know, why not get 212 00:15:52.000 --> 00:15:58.080 a PhD? And you know, cell biology or something more obscure, like 213 00:15:58.120 --> 00:16:02.279 what what what got you down this path? I never really actually asked you 214 00:16:02.320 --> 00:16:04.519 this question before. I'm kind of interested to hear the story behind that. 215 00:16:06.879 --> 00:16:11.320 Yeah, So as far as going to the getting interested in pharmacy a major 216 00:16:11.399 --> 00:16:15.320 at Tennessee Technological University, and then as part of our organic chemistry, of 217 00:16:15.399 --> 00:16:19.799 course we had to write a term paper and they would assign us a class 218 00:16:19.919 --> 00:16:23.480 of compounds that they wanted to write a term paper on. The term paper 219 00:16:23.600 --> 00:16:29.919 was as zoladeine dions and that made a damn thing to anybody listening to this 220 00:16:29.960 --> 00:16:33.960 podcast. But what we do know is that they were designed. They were 221 00:16:34.200 --> 00:16:37.600 they were molecules to design. They have a variety of applications, but one 222 00:16:37.639 --> 00:16:42.799 of them was was anti seizure medications and so it just struck me as a 223 00:16:42.799 --> 00:16:48.759 as a CHEMMI major taking organic chemistry, that you could design a molecule to 224 00:16:48.799 --> 00:16:53.080 elicit a specific pharmacological action. And so to me, that just fascinated the 225 00:16:53.080 --> 00:16:57.720 heck out of me, And so I dropped my CHEMMI major and switched to 226 00:16:57.759 --> 00:17:03.759 pharmacy pre pharmacy. And so then when I got to pharmacy school, I 227 00:17:03.120 --> 00:17:07.559 um I really started working in the lab of who would are ultimately or be 228 00:17:07.720 --> 00:17:11.440 my mentor versus And that's doctor Bias and Dice was too, and that he 229 00:17:11.480 --> 00:17:17.039 had been trained by some of the world's experts in pharma coconetics, and so 230 00:17:17.079 --> 00:17:19.680 I kind of got interested in pharma coconetics. Well, was pharma coconetis basically 231 00:17:19.720 --> 00:17:22.839 a layman's is what the It's what the body does to the drug and not 232 00:17:22.920 --> 00:17:26.359 what the drug does to the body. And basically we're talking about how drugs 233 00:17:26.359 --> 00:17:30.960 are absorbed, how they're distributed in the body, and how they're metabolized and 234 00:17:30.000 --> 00:17:34.440 how they're excreted. And so it's the farmer coconetics is behind you know, 235 00:17:34.480 --> 00:17:37.440 why you take a certain amount of a drug ever so often? You know, 236 00:17:37.440 --> 00:17:41.279 so why do you Underfitteen middle grams twice a day or once a day. 237 00:17:41.559 --> 00:17:44.640 All that's depending come on the pharma coconetics on the drug. So anyway, 238 00:17:45.000 --> 00:17:48.759 so um, so I was a farma coconeticist, but well I was 239 00:17:48.799 --> 00:17:53.240 a pharmaceutical scientist by training. So I was also trained in formulations, and 240 00:17:53.559 --> 00:17:57.039 uh, you know, I did a lot of physical pharmacy, physical chemistry 241 00:17:57.039 --> 00:18:00.440 and how that comes into play. But you know, all so drug metabolism 242 00:18:00.519 --> 00:18:06.519 and pharmacokinetics and so i I is a nice thing about one being a pharmacist 243 00:18:06.519 --> 00:18:10.480 into having a PhD in pharmaceutical sciences instead. It gives you a very broad 244 00:18:11.319 --> 00:18:15.559 area of expertise and a whole host of things that will come into play down 245 00:18:15.599 --> 00:18:18.960 the road. And so you know, theetary supplements weren't even on the radar 246 00:18:19.079 --> 00:18:23.359 when I was in graduate school, but not only after I graduated and it 247 00:18:23.440 --> 00:18:27.319 started working in the College of Pharmacy for and of course the reason I got 248 00:18:27.319 --> 00:18:30.680 into went into academia instead of industry as a different story, but we don't 249 00:18:30.680 --> 00:18:36.799 have time for that. But nevertheless, I ended up deciding to go take 250 00:18:37.440 --> 00:18:41.759 an academic position in the College of Pharmacy into University of arkanass and then about 251 00:18:42.279 --> 00:18:48.559 oh goodness about four years into that. So my area of X back so 252 00:18:48.680 --> 00:18:56.119 and liver transplantation and not only the immunology associated with it, but also how 253 00:18:56.240 --> 00:19:03.720 liver transplants and how preserving organs would affect the pharma co medications and someone who 254 00:19:03.880 --> 00:19:06.960 just got a new or new liver or a new kidney, you know. 255 00:19:07.039 --> 00:19:11.200 And so there's a there's a field called reperfusion injury that has a has a 256 00:19:11.240 --> 00:19:17.519 tremendous impact on how your liver functions initially going forward. So anyway, so 257 00:19:17.559 --> 00:19:22.799 I was a transplantation immunologist slash U reperfusion injury, pharma coconut. Yeah, 258 00:19:22.880 --> 00:19:27.359 it's it's very it's kind of a very narrow niche. But anyway, but 259 00:19:27.640 --> 00:19:30.359 to be a pharma coconetics is one of the things you have to understand is 260 00:19:30.400 --> 00:19:36.079 you have to be able to analyze concentrations of drugs in biological fluids, primarily 261 00:19:36.160 --> 00:19:38.960 in blood or plasma, in urine. So you also have to be an 262 00:19:38.960 --> 00:19:42.599 analytical chemist. So I was very well versed in that. Any but long 263 00:19:42.599 --> 00:19:48.160 story short, UM I was running a lab at the University of Arkansas Pho 264 00:19:48.200 --> 00:19:52.680 Medical Sciences and one of them, one of the UM one of the other 265 00:19:52.720 --> 00:19:56.640 departments, a department of Pharmacis of pharmacy had been a doctor Stephanie Gardiner. 266 00:19:56.319 --> 00:20:03.960 H, this is about nineteen six. So you had me as a two 267 00:20:03.039 --> 00:20:07.880 year old at home while you were starting were too. Yeah, that's crazy, 268 00:20:07.960 --> 00:20:11.000 and it's nineteen ninety six, ninety seven. I think it's closer to 269 00:20:11.119 --> 00:20:15.920 ninety six. A couple of years after the Dietary Summing, Health and Education 270 00:20:15.960 --> 00:20:19.599 Active Minute it had been UM been passed by Congress. There was a product 271 00:20:19.880 --> 00:20:22.640 that was getting a lot of um. It was getting a lot of people 272 00:20:22.759 --> 00:20:26.279 both good and bad. Uh in the media. And as a product called 273 00:20:26.359 --> 00:20:32.039 herbal ecstasy. What a name that would have gotten me. Yeah, you 274 00:20:32.039 --> 00:20:33.920 don't need anything named herbal ecstasy. I'm like, nah, man, I'm 275 00:20:33.960 --> 00:20:37.839 not I'm not having anything. So you know what ecstasy is. Extasy is 276 00:20:37.839 --> 00:20:44.680 basically methylene die amphetamine, methylene dogs meth amphetamine. Know, this is a 277 00:20:44.799 --> 00:20:45.920 this is a play on that, you know. So this is a herbal 278 00:20:47.039 --> 00:20:52.240 version of m DMA, so to speak. Anyway, Um, so you 279 00:20:52.240 --> 00:20:55.319 know, there was some there was some safety concerns associated with it, and 280 00:20:55.359 --> 00:20:59.599 so she brought some props. She brought some a little a little foil of 281 00:21:00.240 --> 00:21:03.400 ecstasy, and she said, can you analyze, uh and tell me how 282 00:21:03.519 --> 00:21:07.279 much your federan alkaloids are. So let me back up just a second. 283 00:21:07.279 --> 00:21:11.759 If herbal ecstasy was one of the federc containing dietary softiments back in the day, 284 00:21:11.319 --> 00:21:17.559 and so people might don't know what is Yeah, so ef it's a 285 00:21:17.640 --> 00:21:22.599 it's a plant that's indigenous primarily to Middle Eastern countries, China, that part 286 00:21:22.599 --> 00:21:26.680 of the world, and it's a source of ephedrin alkaloids. And so well 287 00:21:26.720 --> 00:21:30.279 what does that mean. Well, you may have heard of the drug pseudo 288 00:21:30.319 --> 00:21:34.279 fed orphed you know, and so they they're they're indirect their indirect actings and 289 00:21:34.400 --> 00:21:37.680 path on my medica means, well what does that mean? Well, they 290 00:21:37.720 --> 00:21:42.519 do a lot of things, but cedo fed is typically you was available, 291 00:21:42.559 --> 00:21:47.960 I'm still available as a as a nasal decongested, but it also has some 292 00:21:48.119 --> 00:21:53.079 cardiovasca stimulatory effects and a whole host of other things. But um, so 293 00:21:53.160 --> 00:21:57.960 when the shake came out in ninety four, there was a whole host of 294 00:21:59.039 --> 00:22:03.880 product marketed um and they were called hephedra containing dietary of sophomas. And again 295 00:22:03.920 --> 00:22:08.720 he Federa is a natural as a plant source handing alkaloids, but they also 296 00:22:10.519 --> 00:22:15.799 at the time they also contain almost all of them also contain the sources of 297 00:22:15.880 --> 00:22:19.839 caffeine, and then as a lot of them would contain synthetic sources of caffeine 298 00:22:19.960 --> 00:22:29.240 and caffeine sources like green tea, Urba mate and goodness, grocious, um, 299 00:22:29.480 --> 00:22:33.880 there's a handfully um Yo pain Holly. A few owners these part of 300 00:22:33.880 --> 00:22:40.559 the market, and they were being marketed as aids or exercise performedancers or energy 301 00:22:40.559 --> 00:22:44.680 boosters, those kinds of things, and so you had not a lot of 302 00:22:44.720 --> 00:22:48.599 you had some, you know, just regular folks, moms taking them to 303 00:22:48.680 --> 00:22:53.319 lose weight or athletes taking them to you know, booster exercise performance, those 304 00:22:53.400 --> 00:22:57.039 kinds of things. Unfortunately, he started getting people that are having heart attacks, 305 00:22:57.119 --> 00:23:00.759 strokes, seizures, and psychotic of them. It's like, oh my 306 00:23:00.880 --> 00:23:03.359 god, what's going on here? So that's kind of so in in the 307 00:23:03.640 --> 00:23:08.480 early nineteen well in the mid nineteen nineties, uh if fedra supple months were 308 00:23:08.559 --> 00:23:12.160 kind of the you know what kind of the problem child? Uh, you 309 00:23:12.160 --> 00:23:14.920 know what's going on? What do we know? Those things? Why are 310 00:23:15.160 --> 00:23:19.079 you know these should be this shouldn't be causing all these issues? And so 311 00:23:19.319 --> 00:23:22.440 um She brought this herbal ecstasy to my lab and says, can you tell 312 00:23:22.480 --> 00:23:25.839 me how much you federan alkaloids is in there? I said, well, 313 00:23:25.880 --> 00:23:29.880 you know, we can certainly develop an essay and find out. So developed 314 00:23:29.880 --> 00:23:33.279 in we developed an assay and sort of too, you have to validate your 315 00:23:33.319 --> 00:23:36.960 ass to to make sure it works properly. And so in the process of 316 00:23:37.039 --> 00:23:41.640 validating the assay for a federan alkaloids, um, we ran out of the 317 00:23:41.960 --> 00:23:45.720 herbal ecstasy, you know, And so when you we were rapp analyzing it 318 00:23:45.880 --> 00:23:49.720 using performance liquid chromatography. And so when you do, when you analyze a 319 00:23:49.839 --> 00:23:53.519 natural product with hyperform chromatography, you get a bunch of different peaks. Yeah, 320 00:23:53.599 --> 00:23:59.160 yeah, peaks. Oftentimes these these peak and I say peaks peaks is 321 00:23:59.200 --> 00:24:03.640 a good term. I mean that's what in organic chemistry. But yeah, 322 00:24:03.920 --> 00:24:07.359 but you know, each each individual formulation will give you kind of like a 323 00:24:07.400 --> 00:24:12.799 signature of material that's in there. So we were analyzing herbal ecstasy, we 324 00:24:12.880 --> 00:24:15.279 ran out of it. We had a we had a signature. We knew 325 00:24:15.319 --> 00:24:18.160 how much of federn was in this one particular lot. We knew how much 326 00:24:18.160 --> 00:24:22.920 pseudo if federan metholi federan nor suo if fed is a bunch of different Federan 327 00:24:22.960 --> 00:24:26.200 alkaloids in there, and and that will give you a signature. So this 328 00:24:26.279 --> 00:24:30.759 because it's the best best way to describe it. And so we ran out 329 00:24:30.759 --> 00:24:33.799 of this one particular lot. So she brings me another one, another, 330 00:24:33.920 --> 00:24:38.920 another little package. But it's a different lot, and so we're analyzing in 331 00:24:40.880 --> 00:24:45.519 you know, and it's completely unlike the the initial lot. Unlike. So 332 00:24:45.559 --> 00:24:51.440 as a pharmacy, what happened at numbers of your drugs are they should actually 333 00:24:51.440 --> 00:24:55.240 the exact same thing every time, you know, every lot, numbers should 334 00:24:55.240 --> 00:24:56.599 be the same. I should should look the same, should have the same 335 00:24:56.680 --> 00:25:02.559 quantity of the ingredient. It's completely unlike the first And oh my god, 336 00:25:02.599 --> 00:25:03.680 yeah, I'd have thought so if were if I were you, I'd have 337 00:25:03.680 --> 00:25:07.759 been sitting there going, okay, maybe this isn't herbal ecstasy. It looks 338 00:25:07.799 --> 00:25:11.759 completely different, Like what the hell is this? Because even you would think 339 00:25:11.759 --> 00:25:15.720 it would be somewhat similar. But yeah, well, I mean it. 340 00:25:15.920 --> 00:25:18.559 It had E Federan alkaloids, no doubt. But they were the quantities of 341 00:25:18.599 --> 00:25:22.000 E federan and the quantities of PSEUDOI federal. They were all different. It's 342 00:25:22.039 --> 00:25:27.039 just completely unlike the first lot. And so I was just stunned, you 343 00:25:27.039 --> 00:25:30.640 know, because as a pharmacist, you know, you're not supposed to have 344 00:25:30.640 --> 00:25:32.920 a lot to lot variations. I mean, yeah, you can may have 345 00:25:32.960 --> 00:25:36.000 a little bit maybe at one percent, but not one hundred percent. No, 346 00:25:36.599 --> 00:25:41.640 No, you're you're a well passed recall territory at that point. Yeah, 347 00:25:41.839 --> 00:25:45.960 So we got some more herbal ecstasy and we're analyzing and how every lot 348 00:25:45.079 --> 00:25:48.599 was different. Well, so then we started so then we started looking at 349 00:25:48.880 --> 00:25:53.000 not only herbal ecstasy, but just a whole host of the federal containing supplements 350 00:25:53.039 --> 00:25:56.160 that were on the market, and they were all over the map too. 351 00:25:56.960 --> 00:26:03.799 So we published this paper in the American journal Health Systems Pharmacy, UM and 352 00:26:03.839 --> 00:26:07.799 I'm trying to remember what the uh. Yeah, the title was content Versus 353 00:26:07.880 --> 00:26:11.759 Label Claims and then it had a little subtitle about it cider containing alkaloids supple 354 00:26:11.759 --> 00:26:15.200 months and stuff. And so we found that the vast majority I fed on 355 00:26:15.240 --> 00:26:19.440 products that, regardless of what their label may have claimed, oftentimes it was 356 00:26:19.440 --> 00:26:23.359 in the product was much unlike what was on the label claim. And so 357 00:26:23.880 --> 00:26:30.319 this was for some pretty some pretty um very popular supple months and uh sweet 358 00:26:30.319 --> 00:26:33.880 published this paper and you talk about stirring up the ankle. Oh my god, 359 00:26:33.920 --> 00:26:37.960 I remember, I remember getting had did we get did we get a 360 00:26:38.039 --> 00:26:41.799 line? Did we get I hate to interrupt, did we get voicemails and 361 00:26:41.880 --> 00:26:47.599 threats at home? Oh yeah. So once we published this paper, you 362 00:26:47.640 --> 00:26:52.400 know, and then um, you know, basically we just we just we 363 00:26:52.519 --> 00:26:56.920 basically poked a big sharp stick in the poke. You poked the bear for 364 00:26:56.960 --> 00:26:59.839 sure, yeah, oh yeah, and they're like, oh my god, 365 00:27:00.039 --> 00:27:03.119 you know, the cats out of the bag, so to speak. And 366 00:27:03.200 --> 00:27:08.319 so I remember one afternoon. Of course, this started a lot of rumors 367 00:27:08.400 --> 00:27:11.799 from the from the well, there was a very well put this way, 368 00:27:11.880 --> 00:27:15.920 there was Aggie, a lobbying group for a federal suppingment companies called the Ethedera 369 00:27:17.119 --> 00:27:22.279 Education Council. They had a bunch of high prized lawyers that started making all 370 00:27:22.279 --> 00:27:25.200 these claims about me, you know, just yeah, making up, just 371 00:27:25.279 --> 00:27:30.160 baking up stuff about me. Well, as the later on, uh I 372 00:27:30.200 --> 00:27:34.160 always referred to the Federal Education Council as the Etheder Indoctrin Nations, which is 373 00:27:34.240 --> 00:27:38.680 basically what you know, they were just trying to blow smoke about you and 374 00:27:38.759 --> 00:27:42.680 so um. Anyway, so we post that paper, it gets you know 375 00:27:42.799 --> 00:27:47.920 it, it made quite a bit of We got a lot of media hits 376 00:27:47.960 --> 00:27:52.680 on it. In fact, we had um Dayline NBC came to the lab, 377 00:27:52.920 --> 00:27:56.880 remember, oh, I mean we had I can't tell you he uh 378 00:27:57.720 --> 00:28:03.039 how many camera crews into my lab nineteen ninety six until about two thousand. 379 00:28:03.400 --> 00:28:07.240 It was just crazy. I mean we were on ESPN, we were on 380 00:28:07.640 --> 00:28:14.200 Dateline, NBC, Nightline, Good Morning America. I mean it was just 381 00:28:14.359 --> 00:28:19.799 crazy there for a while. And so the reason for that, once word 382 00:28:19.880 --> 00:28:25.240 got out that these products weren't didn't always match up to what their label, 383 00:28:25.279 --> 00:28:32.039 car had a lot. Now they're looking for people to basically provide expert testimony 384 00:28:32.440 --> 00:28:38.200 for some of these wrongful death cases that were going to litigation. And so 385 00:28:38.559 --> 00:28:42.359 one of the very first, the very first case to go to trial was 386 00:28:42.559 --> 00:28:48.279 for a young lady I think she was in her late mint to late twenties 387 00:28:48.599 --> 00:28:52.400 in Alaska who had taken a product and then went to play you know, 388 00:28:53.000 --> 00:29:00.960 sad volleyball and she had a stroke. Well that's not coming in twenty Yeah, 389 00:29:02.200 --> 00:29:04.960 she was one of a whole host of people that were having these heart 390 00:29:06.000 --> 00:29:10.359 attack strokes seizures and psychonic events, and so she just happened to be the 391 00:29:10.480 --> 00:29:14.240 very first one to go to they went to trial. So they reached out 392 00:29:14.240 --> 00:29:15.720 to me and so would you be an expert witness? And so I ain't. 393 00:29:15.880 --> 00:29:22.640 I didn't know anybody. Yeah, I'll do that. Sure who it 394 00:29:22.720 --> 00:29:26.680 was? It was me? Uh, and the you know, the I 395 00:29:26.839 --> 00:29:30.640 was for the I was on the plaintiff side, and the defense was for 396 00:29:30.799 --> 00:29:33.200 later some of the companies. And so they had a ton of money that 397 00:29:33.319 --> 00:29:40.519 should why you know, basically higher some of the the biggest names in either 398 00:29:41.039 --> 00:29:47.880 cardiovascular pharmacology or neurology or whatever. And so you know, the very this 399 00:29:47.960 --> 00:29:51.799 first case that went to trial in Alaska. Um, it was me, 400 00:29:51.960 --> 00:30:00.799 this young kid from Arkansas versus some of the highly cited cardiovascular pharmacologist and urologists 401 00:30:00.839 --> 00:30:04.440 in the world. But what was really funny, I give my I give 402 00:30:04.519 --> 00:30:10.119 the plaintiffs attorney all the credit for this is that at one point during the 403 00:30:11.240 --> 00:30:17.359 um examination of expert witnesses on the on the stand, uh, this this 404 00:30:17.440 --> 00:30:22.680 lady that was from Stanford University, a cardio of asked her pharmacologist she had 405 00:30:22.720 --> 00:30:26.799 her virtues about you know what old house she started talking over the head of 406 00:30:26.920 --> 00:30:30.839 the of the jurors. You know, she's talking molecular pharmacology and this and 407 00:30:30.839 --> 00:30:33.119 that and these are just you know, people off the streets and they're looking 408 00:30:33.119 --> 00:30:37.079 at it. People got pulled into jury. Yeah, you know, and 409 00:30:37.160 --> 00:30:45.680 so anyway I could my the plaintiffs attorney realized that, you know, the 410 00:30:45.799 --> 00:30:49.720 juror has no idea what she's saying. Granted she knew her, she knew 411 00:30:49.720 --> 00:30:53.480 her pharmacology. One of the first questions he asked her when he owned cross 412 00:30:53.519 --> 00:30:59.799 examination was doctor, so and so, have you ever done any research or 413 00:31:00.000 --> 00:31:07.559 published anything on efederan alkaloids? Have you ever published anything on efederan alkaloids safety? 414 00:31:07.599 --> 00:31:11.200 And just holding your questions. She finally got down to where have you 415 00:31:11.200 --> 00:31:15.119 ever done any research or published anything on e federc containing done terry supplements? 416 00:31:15.720 --> 00:31:18.680 No? And he goes down to home and every answer to her question, 417 00:31:18.759 --> 00:31:21.920 every answer to this question was no, no, no, no, no, 418 00:31:21.960 --> 00:31:25.400 to the point of where she got so angry at him. She started 419 00:31:25.480 --> 00:31:29.440 yelling at him on this and dad, well, judge, the judge asked 420 00:31:29.440 --> 00:31:30.839 her, doctor so and so, you know you need to come and then 421 00:31:30.839 --> 00:31:36.359 she started yelling at the judge, that's hilarious, that's so crazy. Oh 422 00:31:36.440 --> 00:31:41.119 man, So then how do you seriously, how do you go to trial 423 00:31:41.200 --> 00:31:45.200 for that and not expect those questions to come? And I'm not, you 424 00:31:45.240 --> 00:31:48.920 know, I get on the stand and so, okay, you know you 425 00:31:48.960 --> 00:31:52.119 asked me the same questions he asked her. Yeah, yeah, yes, 426 00:31:52.480 --> 00:31:56.000 yes, yes, yes, yes, yes yes. And so at the 427 00:31:56.079 --> 00:31:59.000 end he said, so, doctor Gurley, would it be correct to say 428 00:31:59.039 --> 00:32:05.240 that you're probably one of the world's foremost experts on only feder containing dietary sophomonths. 429 00:32:05.759 --> 00:32:07.559 And I said, well, you know, I've never thought about it 430 00:32:07.599 --> 00:32:09.960 like that, but I guess you'd have to say yet. And then he 431 00:32:10.039 --> 00:32:14.079 asked me some questions about, you know, what's going And so instead of 432 00:32:14.559 --> 00:32:19.359 talking pharmacology over the juror's heads, I just started giving them every day analogies 433 00:32:19.400 --> 00:32:24.160 as to why this individual's stroke may have been related to her taking this particular 434 00:32:24.240 --> 00:32:30.359 dietary, that feder containing dietary sophomon and and I could just tell right away 435 00:32:30.400 --> 00:32:31.799 that the jurors got it. Yeah, you know, they were looking like, 436 00:32:31.799 --> 00:32:36.079 oh, ok and he's going to see this, Oh oh that's what 437 00:32:36.200 --> 00:32:39.519 he Yeah. And so long story short, we went the case. Uh, 438 00:32:39.640 --> 00:32:45.000 and the case was for the plaintiffs for like eight million bucks, which 439 00:32:45.559 --> 00:32:50.039 at the time, Yeah, in nineteen ninety, this is in this, 440 00:32:50.039 --> 00:32:52.839 this is a ninet This in two thousand. At the first case I only 441 00:32:52.839 --> 00:32:55.279 go to trial was in two thousand. Uh. And then after that, 442 00:32:55.880 --> 00:33:00.480 man, the floodgates opened up, you know. And so I was an 443 00:33:00.480 --> 00:33:04.119 expert witness for a lot of cases that not all of them went to trial. 444 00:33:04.160 --> 00:33:06.799 A lot of them got settled out like them got settled. But the 445 00:33:06.799 --> 00:33:08.200 ones that did go to trial, I mean we won everyone, you know. 446 00:33:08.279 --> 00:33:13.480 So knock on wood, I never lost a case with regards to those 447 00:33:13.519 --> 00:33:15.319 products. I mean we were we were up against some pretty heavy hitters. 448 00:33:15.359 --> 00:33:20.160 I mean some of the top selling and fetter containing celtma was in the companies 449 00:33:20.160 --> 00:33:22.960 in the in the nation, you know, the metabolized yeah rip puel, 450 00:33:23.079 --> 00:33:28.599 I remember the Stacker one of them. Yeah, all we did, yeah 451 00:33:28.759 --> 00:33:34.839 yeah, Stacker hydroxy cut them, you know. And so but what was 452 00:33:34.880 --> 00:33:38.599 really interesting to me, and I had not I knew this from experience in 453 00:33:38.680 --> 00:33:43.440 pharmacy school. So this was and when I was in pharmacy school, there 454 00:33:43.480 --> 00:33:47.559 was a group of products that were marketed um and they were based, for 455 00:33:47.720 --> 00:33:53.200 lack of a better term, colloquially they were termed and fetamine lookal and so 456 00:33:53.240 --> 00:33:58.559 they were so and fetamine at the time was in a black capsule. Uh. 457 00:33:58.720 --> 00:34:04.160 And so these these if these amphetamine lookalots were also in a black capsule, 458 00:34:04.240 --> 00:34:08.920 but they didn't contain I mean, they contain ephedrian phenol propanolamine, which 459 00:34:09.000 --> 00:34:15.119 is basically a which is an analog of efeder um and um a caffeine. 460 00:34:16.159 --> 00:34:21.119 And so they were marketed and the other So what did you want greeny by 461 00:34:21.159 --> 00:34:23.400 itself, it's pretty ncuous. Yeah, but when you when you throw them 462 00:34:23.440 --> 00:34:28.239 all together, yeah, oh it can get ugly fast. Yeah. So 463 00:34:28.360 --> 00:34:35.519 from a cardiovascular and uh and a cerebro vascular contact. So um. So 464 00:34:35.559 --> 00:34:37.559 I remember pharmacy school when you know, these things are popular, and I 465 00:34:37.639 --> 00:34:40.039 took one, you know, I had a study for some exams, you 466 00:34:40.079 --> 00:34:43.920 know, so well, I'll pop one of these we called them black Molly's. 467 00:34:44.480 --> 00:34:47.199 I'll pop one of these things and I'll uh you know, and my 468 00:34:47.440 --> 00:34:51.119 god, oh my, you are lord, you could I was awake for 469 00:34:51.280 --> 00:34:52.920 all night. You know, you're just so buzzed, you know, you're 470 00:34:53.519 --> 00:34:58.800 you're you couldn't sleep you, you know, you kind of I kind of 471 00:34:58.840 --> 00:35:02.239 got what I was I maybe remember I don't know anyway I could study, 472 00:35:02.440 --> 00:35:06.320 not a problem. I was taking all this in. I didn't you remember 473 00:35:06.360 --> 00:35:08.280 anything, you know, I would just buzzed, yeah, big time, 474 00:35:08.480 --> 00:35:12.639 you know. And not only were you hyped up studying, but you know 475 00:35:12.679 --> 00:35:16.760 afterwards you wanted to you know, wash the car and paint the house and 476 00:35:16.880 --> 00:35:19.880 you know, mold the neighbor's yard. No, I mean, you're just 477 00:35:19.920 --> 00:35:23.159 so wired up with this stuff. Like my god, So after I took 478 00:35:23.239 --> 00:35:28.719 my sand the following day, I can't recall how it did on it, 479 00:35:28.760 --> 00:35:30.239 but I can't remember a damn thing I studied after that, you know, 480 00:35:30.320 --> 00:35:35.800 so you just, yeah, I want to you couldn't retain anything. Yeah, 481 00:35:36.079 --> 00:35:37.960 you could, you could focus on it at the time, but then 482 00:35:38.000 --> 00:35:42.440 afterwards you kind of had this memory dump, you know. That's so I 483 00:35:42.480 --> 00:35:45.760 had it. That's it. I had personal experience with these products that were 484 00:35:45.480 --> 00:35:52.920 that were common synthetic combinations of euphederan, pheno propenolamine, and caffeine, which 485 00:35:52.920 --> 00:35:57.679 is the same thing that was in these ephederic containing diets. Of must accept 486 00:35:57.760 --> 00:36:01.840 that the sort of all natural and not synthetic. Well, I mean from 487 00:36:01.880 --> 00:36:08.159 a pharmacological perspective, the drug molecule doesn't know you're the way your receptors in 488 00:36:08.199 --> 00:36:13.679 your body a molecule, they don't know whether it's synthetic or whether it's natural. 489 00:36:13.760 --> 00:36:16.519 I mean the molecules molecule, you know, so anyway, so that 490 00:36:17.199 --> 00:36:21.239 you know. So I brought all that out, uh, not only in 491 00:36:21.519 --> 00:36:27.440 various depositions, but also in trial that you know. And so what happened 492 00:36:27.440 --> 00:36:30.559 to the amphetamine looks well because of the heart extrokes, seizures, and psychotic 493 00:36:30.599 --> 00:36:36.000 events that had occurred during the during the mid eighties to the early nineties, 494 00:36:36.280 --> 00:36:38.039 the FDA pulled that stuff off the market. He said, no, you 495 00:36:38.079 --> 00:36:43.119 cannot market these things unless you can prove to the FDA that they're safe and 496 00:36:43.119 --> 00:36:45.159 effective, and that can never be done. And so they went away. 497 00:36:45.320 --> 00:36:47.800 But then when the doctor is someone health an Education Act came, they came 498 00:36:47.880 --> 00:36:52.239 right back. They came right back natural. Basically they were just natural, 499 00:36:52.000 --> 00:36:55.679 same thing, look alive. Yeah, that's them. That's what It's an 500 00:36:55.719 --> 00:37:01.280 important point you make because you know I I you know, ADHD attention deficit 501 00:37:01.800 --> 00:37:06.719 or are something that's very familiar with pharmacists right now, there's plenty of medications 502 00:37:06.719 --> 00:37:10.119 out there. We pretty much the dosages haven't really changed. They're pretty easy 503 00:37:10.199 --> 00:37:15.800 to manage if you do it correctly. But cardiovascular side effects of appetite suppression. 504 00:37:16.719 --> 00:37:19.719 You know, you were one of the first people, you know, 505 00:37:19.840 --> 00:37:22.320 when I was prescribed these things. We're like, look, we really need 506 00:37:22.360 --> 00:37:25.519 to be tracking your growth because it could stunt your growth a little bit. 507 00:37:25.559 --> 00:37:30.760 That's starting to come out pretty heavily. Now we know these things have side 508 00:37:30.760 --> 00:37:36.679 effects, just like every drug does. But again, it's very scary to 509 00:37:36.760 --> 00:37:43.360 think that just right down the street, anybody could technically make something natural version 510 00:37:43.400 --> 00:37:47.199 of it that could and that might be cheaper or easier to get because there's 511 00:37:47.239 --> 00:37:53.159 a very big shortage of those um amphetamine type medications right now, and you 512 00:37:53.199 --> 00:37:57.480 know people are those aren't easy meads you want to be off of for a 513 00:37:57.559 --> 00:38:00.280 long periods of time if you've been on them for a while, and you 514 00:38:00.280 --> 00:38:02.760 know, people might reach for those uh natural products thinking, oh, you 515 00:38:02.760 --> 00:38:07.039 know what, this will hold me over till the drug supply thing comes back. 516 00:38:07.880 --> 00:38:09.199 Um their natural set, it won't hurt me, and then you never 517 00:38:09.239 --> 00:38:12.960 know, Like like you said, the loviation can be all over the place. 518 00:38:13.039 --> 00:38:16.760 Yeah, so yeah, that's a sore so with that. So once 519 00:38:16.800 --> 00:38:20.960 that, so, once that first case was found for the plaintiffs, and 520 00:38:20.960 --> 00:38:23.159 then, like I said, the bar you know, the floodgates opened up. 521 00:38:23.360 --> 00:38:28.079 So um, there were a whole host of cases that went to a 522 00:38:28.119 --> 00:38:32.719 long story short, the FDA uh finally took the FEDERC containing products off the 523 00:38:32.760 --> 00:38:40.280 market. Okay, So Metabolife hydro hydroxycut r FA was the one that was 524 00:38:40.320 --> 00:38:44.480 on the market at the time. All that stuff went away, and so 525 00:38:44.599 --> 00:38:46.440 then you came up with easy FEDERC free supplements, you know. So I 526 00:38:46.480 --> 00:38:52.960 mean, for example, a classic example was during the day when when Metabolife 527 00:38:53.400 --> 00:38:58.760 was at its heyday in like two thousand and two thousand and one, it 528 00:38:58.880 --> 00:39:02.199 had an over a billion dollars in sales that year get out sold prozac that 529 00:39:02.320 --> 00:39:07.840 you and then and then you know a lot of bad publicity started coming out 530 00:39:07.840 --> 00:39:10.800 and their sales just started to plumb it. So what are they Well, 531 00:39:10.880 --> 00:39:15.000 Okay, we'll take the ephedra out and then we'll add a whole bunch of 532 00:39:15.039 --> 00:39:20.559 other non efedera still s path of my medica means and throw some more caffeine 533 00:39:20.599 --> 00:39:24.000 in there. And so now they're a FEDERA free So okay, we're good. 534 00:39:24.159 --> 00:39:28.400 We're all good. Ye. Well, so me, I just said, 535 00:39:28.440 --> 00:39:32.599 well, you know, if feder you know, okay, So here 536 00:39:32.760 --> 00:39:37.559 you know, I'm a curious guy. I'm interested in these things. I 537 00:39:37.599 --> 00:39:39.760 know a lot about the pharmacology of all the ingredients that are in a lot 538 00:39:39.800 --> 00:39:44.840 of these ethedera free soultments that are on the market now. Um, and 539 00:39:44.920 --> 00:39:50.840 so we didn't want, if my understanding, the only clinical pharmacology studying the 540 00:39:50.920 --> 00:39:55.159 Federal free containing dietary supplements. And hell, they were just as problematic as 541 00:39:55.199 --> 00:40:00.119 you federic containing stuff, you know, because if you throw enough, if 542 00:40:00.159 --> 00:40:06.519 you're throwing stroll symnpathemometic amine compounds with a bunch of caffeine in it, whether 543 00:40:06.599 --> 00:40:07.880 or not, whether or not there's any of feder in it or not, 544 00:40:08.039 --> 00:40:10.519 I mean, it's still going to act the same. And so we saw 545 00:40:10.559 --> 00:40:17.119 the same thing, a lot of alterations, significant alterations and electrocardio and electrocardiograms, 546 00:40:17.679 --> 00:40:22.039 uh, significant increases in blood pressure, heart rates, on and so 547 00:40:22.079 --> 00:40:24.840 forth. So even though they're EFEDRA free, that doesn't necessarily mean they're trouble 548 00:40:24.880 --> 00:40:29.639 free. And so and that's what you still have on the market now, 549 00:40:29.679 --> 00:40:35.320 but now they're in the form of pre workout powders. Oh yeah, man, 550 00:40:35.480 --> 00:40:38.599 yea exactly. Yeah. So it's you know, you know, just 551 00:40:38.639 --> 00:40:44.039 doing a heavy workout with weights alone. Well, we'll crank your blood pressure 552 00:40:44.119 --> 00:40:47.679 up, especially the pressure in your cerebral vasculature. And then you throw in 553 00:40:47.719 --> 00:40:52.360 some some compounds like a whole lot of caffeine and a whole lot of other 554 00:40:52.400 --> 00:40:57.960 sympathemmetic amines. Man, it'll make your blood You wonder why people have have 555 00:40:58.159 --> 00:41:01.519 had strokes with those types of products. You know what's really interesting Back in 556 00:41:01.559 --> 00:41:06.920 the day, effederan and caffeine and one of the few drug combinations that markedly 557 00:41:07.480 --> 00:41:15.519 uh increase um the uh not only markedly uh cause based in the market the 558 00:41:15.559 --> 00:41:19.639 pressure and braslature. So it's one of the few drug combinations that do that. 559 00:41:20.199 --> 00:41:22.519 So and you wonder why it's not once you understand that it's not, 560 00:41:22.639 --> 00:41:28.039 it's not beyond the realm apossitory where you would see some into it. And 561 00:41:28.079 --> 00:41:31.800 of course everybody has their own different dissensitivities in the whole genetic aspect of things. 562 00:41:31.920 --> 00:41:35.920 Some people are going to be much more sensitive to these things than others, 563 00:41:35.960 --> 00:41:38.599 and so that oftentimes that was the case. So you can have some 564 00:41:38.639 --> 00:41:45.280 genetic polymorphisms and either metabolizing enzymes or receptors or so on and so forth, 565 00:41:45.679 --> 00:41:47.719 some individuals just gonna be much more susceptible to these things than others. So 566 00:41:49.360 --> 00:41:52.559 um so again, although the effederal supplements we were taken off the market in 567 00:41:52.599 --> 00:41:58.119 two thousand and four, the effederal free products that most of which are pre 568 00:41:58.199 --> 00:42:01.079 workout supplements. I mean, there's some absolutely crazy formulations that are on the 569 00:42:01.079 --> 00:42:05.920 marketing now. I'm just not getting a lot of publicity because there's bigger there's 570 00:42:05.960 --> 00:42:08.280 bigger things for the media to jomb Sure, sure, yeah, there's still 571 00:42:08.320 --> 00:42:12.440 a these are kind of these are under the radar screen, so to speak. 572 00:42:12.679 --> 00:42:14.840 But I mean, if you get hurt by one, you're still hurt 573 00:42:14.840 --> 00:42:20.239 by sure. Yeah. I Doctor Dunne in pharmacy school always said this, 574 00:42:20.320 --> 00:42:22.119 and this has always stayed in the back of my mind, is it's not 575 00:42:22.239 --> 00:42:28.800 rare if it happens to you. So and that not only you know he 576 00:42:28.840 --> 00:42:30.760 was using it in the context of prescripture medication side effects, but I mean 577 00:42:30.800 --> 00:42:36.559 stop them into the same way. And it's funny you mentioned pre workout because 578 00:42:37.360 --> 00:42:39.840 they're still a and I've you know, if you tweak your social media well 579 00:42:39.920 --> 00:42:44.159 enough, you can find these posts about pre workouts and they're all hilarious because 580 00:42:44.159 --> 00:42:46.119 they all, every single one of them is the same. They all miss 581 00:42:46.639 --> 00:42:51.920 Jack three D, the original one. There's this form of guys out there 582 00:42:51.960 --> 00:42:53.599 that think that that was the best thing is since sliced bread, and like 583 00:42:53.639 --> 00:42:59.599 they're so mad that it's not available anymore. But none of them know why 584 00:42:59.639 --> 00:43:01.559 that was pulled. You know, we're one of the few groups. I've 585 00:43:01.559 --> 00:43:07.599 actually done some some animal studies with not only Jack three D, but also 586 00:43:07.800 --> 00:43:13.360 one of the them analogs of Jack there the same made by the same company, 587 00:43:13.400 --> 00:43:17.559 oxy Elite Prom and that's rot your liver out, but it'll recavoc on 588 00:43:17.639 --> 00:43:22.119 your blood pressure and stuff. So and you know, so yeah, I 589 00:43:22.159 --> 00:43:23.840 mean in Jack three D. I mean, if you just look at all 590 00:43:23.880 --> 00:43:30.039 of the adverse event reports that were submitted to the FDA and to post control 591 00:43:30.079 --> 00:43:37.320 centers across the country for our our for all of our active service people that 592 00:43:37.400 --> 00:43:40.760 were taking Jack three D and oxy Elite Pro as you know, as to 593 00:43:40.840 --> 00:43:47.280 help them on their to help them pass their UM fitness screening yeah, yeah, 594 00:43:47.360 --> 00:43:51.079 exactly. And you know, and a lot of these guys are having 595 00:43:51.239 --> 00:43:54.440 strokes and heart attacks and this and that. But when you actually look at 596 00:43:54.719 --> 00:43:59.079 what's in the products, it certainly it makes perfect sense. And so it 597 00:43:59.199 --> 00:44:04.039 was fine. One of the oxy eleate pro cases went to trial, well 598 00:44:04.199 --> 00:44:07.159 it didn't go to trial, but it went to the the Apartment adjustice it 599 00:44:07.280 --> 00:44:12.880 up. They asked us to do some of the some of the some of 600 00:44:12.880 --> 00:44:15.519 the research on it. Uh. And yeah, it's very problematic because the 601 00:44:15.519 --> 00:44:17.880 problem of oxy league pro when it came out was there a lot of a 602 00:44:17.920 --> 00:44:23.320 lot of serious literatories associated with it, and we could we could pretty much 603 00:44:23.320 --> 00:44:29.440 emulate that in some animals. Uh. And so come to find out that 604 00:44:29.880 --> 00:44:34.440 very very in fact, hardly any of the components in oxypro were of natural 605 00:44:34.440 --> 00:44:38.320 origin. Almost all of them were synthetic, and that synthetic combination of ingredients 606 00:44:38.360 --> 00:44:43.199 and never been in minister to humans before. Nevertheless an animal, you know, 607 00:44:43.480 --> 00:44:46.480 so basically the the consuming public where there were their guinea pigs for these 608 00:44:46.480 --> 00:44:50.800 problems. So that's a that's a problem, and that's still still a case 609 00:44:50.800 --> 00:44:52.519 for a lot of these pre workouts. Now, the vast majority of dietary 610 00:44:52.519 --> 00:44:55.760 submas that don't contain a lot of these crazy statements. Are you know, 611 00:44:57.039 --> 00:45:00.079 are are very safe, you know, and they have a very very and 612 00:45:00.320 --> 00:45:06.119 having excellent safety profiles, and so so it gets depends upon, you know, 613 00:45:06.199 --> 00:45:09.360 if you mix and match all kinds of interesting ingredients that have never been 614 00:45:09.440 --> 00:45:14.320 mixing match before. Yeah, you're just opening You're just opening the door for 615 00:45:14.360 --> 00:45:17.800 a bad exactly, and you get some odd pharmacological response. Hell, what 616 00:45:17.840 --> 00:45:21.639 do you expect? Yeah, right now, let's just what I would always 617 00:45:21.679 --> 00:45:24.119 call it form I kind of locking them in many instances, not all, 618 00:45:24.159 --> 00:45:27.639 but in many instances, a lot of these crazy comment a lot of these 619 00:45:27.679 --> 00:45:31.199 clarsy formulations as a pharmacological Pandora's bought. Yes, yeah, you open it 620 00:45:31.239 --> 00:45:35.000 and you can't close it, and it's too late. If it does, 621 00:45:35.199 --> 00:45:37.840 it's ugly. And then, you know, just like with any any time 622 00:45:37.920 --> 00:45:39.719 lawyers are involved, it's like once one case gets attention, it's just like 623 00:45:39.760 --> 00:45:44.679 others eighty eighty other ones. Way, oh yeah, And it's just it 624 00:45:44.719 --> 00:45:45.840 was wild there for a while, you know, so I was getting I 625 00:45:45.840 --> 00:45:50.400 would, I would get death threats. I remember, I remember, you 626 00:45:50.480 --> 00:45:52.719 know, this is this is back in the this is back when you still 627 00:45:52.760 --> 00:45:55.440 had phones in the house that you have cell phones, you know, and 628 00:45:55.559 --> 00:45:59.320 you and I'm you know and not on. It was pissed me off, 629 00:45:59.360 --> 00:46:01.840 you know. So we we had to do another study, and we poked 630 00:46:01.840 --> 00:46:05.840 another stick in their eye, you know, And and the more they would 631 00:46:05.840 --> 00:46:08.159 threaten me, the more the more research we would do, and it just 632 00:46:08.199 --> 00:46:10.440 got ugly. At the end of the day. You know, we ended 633 00:46:10.480 --> 00:46:15.559 up winning out. Yeah, because um, because you know, at that 634 00:46:15.599 --> 00:46:19.159 point, the media was on our side, because you know, I have 635 00:46:19.719 --> 00:46:22.800 anyway and I could go and tell and that and that's not after that. 636 00:46:23.559 --> 00:46:25.599 Yeah, So I'm sorry, No, you're good. I was just gonna 637 00:46:25.639 --> 00:46:28.920 say, like, yeah, I mean I don't want to, Um, 638 00:46:29.000 --> 00:46:30.679 yeah, I mean there's tons of horror stories out there, and I think 639 00:46:30.880 --> 00:46:35.519 people aren't aware of it. So I'm glad that there's people out there actually 640 00:46:35.519 --> 00:46:39.159 doing the research that proves that because you know, then again, you know, 641 00:46:39.239 --> 00:46:43.199 something obscure like that. Now I want to I'm gonna go off on 642 00:46:43.239 --> 00:46:47.119 a slight tangent now that we brought research into it that I don't think a 643 00:46:47.159 --> 00:46:51.800 lot of people understand. So as a lot of people are familiar with human 644 00:46:51.800 --> 00:46:54.800 clinical trial research for drugs or for nutrition okay, because it's kind of easy 645 00:46:54.800 --> 00:46:59.239 to do, and it's there's really not a lot of downside, so to 646 00:46:59.320 --> 00:47:04.039 speak, with nutrition protocols in particular, because it's fairly easy to do um 647 00:47:05.000 --> 00:47:08.519 now. But everyone seems too there's this there is, unfortunately in my opinion, 648 00:47:08.599 --> 00:47:13.079 taking over a little too much. And it's just I see people, 649 00:47:13.159 --> 00:47:15.559 especially on social media, and I've alluded to it an older in one of 650 00:47:15.599 --> 00:47:20.400 the first episodes of the show is there's a lot of appeals to conspiracy. 651 00:47:20.679 --> 00:47:24.079 There's it's it's real easy for people to gravitate towards Oh there these there's these 652 00:47:24.159 --> 00:47:29.400 unknown individuals behind this curtain, pulling the strings and they're wanting us to they 653 00:47:29.440 --> 00:47:32.639 want to make us sick and stuff. And in reality, their biggest claims 654 00:47:32.639 --> 00:47:36.639 when you try to cite a paper like hey, where's this for that claim, 655 00:47:36.679 --> 00:47:38.599 it's oh, well you know who funded it? Who funded the study? 656 00:47:38.760 --> 00:47:45.039 Yeah, um, so in relation to dietary supplements had over two hundred 657 00:47:45.079 --> 00:47:47.360 publications, So you know exactly what it takes to get a study published and 658 00:47:47.760 --> 00:47:52.360 accepted. So can you kind of for the bear for bare bones, just 659 00:47:52.360 --> 00:47:54.679 so people kind of understand the whole process. What does it take for doctor 660 00:47:54.719 --> 00:48:00.199 Gurley to do research on a supplement, funding for it, and then get 661 00:48:00.199 --> 00:48:02.599 it published. Can you kind of walk us through a timeline of that just 662 00:48:02.639 --> 00:48:07.119 so people are aware. Yeah, I can, but before we do that, 663 00:48:07.719 --> 00:48:08.719 I need to take a little I need to take a little quick break, 664 00:48:09.000 --> 00:48:13.679 so I have a few based off the funding question and how a study 665 00:48:13.719 --> 00:48:16.239 like this gets conducted. What's the funding process, like, how is the 666 00:48:16.280 --> 00:48:21.039 approval thing? Just kind of walk us through what all it takes. Because 667 00:48:21.079 --> 00:48:23.039 I know when it's time for you to get to do a grant or try 668 00:48:23.039 --> 00:48:27.199 to get that published, it is not a fun time for you. So 669 00:48:27.320 --> 00:48:30.519 I know there's a lot to it that I just don't think people are aware 670 00:48:30.519 --> 00:48:34.920 of it because there's a lot of misconceptions that there's these big industries out there 671 00:48:34.920 --> 00:48:38.480 funding all these studies and they're manipulating the studies, and it kind of gives 672 00:48:38.519 --> 00:48:42.960 people an out to just kind of dismiss the evidence without having actually read it 673 00:48:43.039 --> 00:48:51.239 or interpret it. Yes, yes and no um because the if you look 674 00:48:51.280 --> 00:48:57.719 at the Education Act, a lot of these companies they're not obligated sure to 675 00:48:57.840 --> 00:49:01.039 didical research studies. They're just not I mean, it's your you know, 676 00:49:01.800 --> 00:49:05.840 that's to me, that's always been kind of one of the shortcomings of this 677 00:49:05.920 --> 00:49:12.159 ship is that it's not up to the dietary SULTMA companies to prove that their 678 00:49:12.159 --> 00:49:15.599 product is safe or efficacious. They don't have to do the clinical human clinical 679 00:49:15.639 --> 00:49:21.360 trials that conventional medications have to go through. So that approval process is much 680 00:49:21.400 --> 00:49:25.800 different than UM than the preval process for conventional medications. And the reasons for 681 00:49:25.840 --> 00:49:31.559 that is because most of these dietary supplements have a very long track record of 682 00:49:31.679 --> 00:49:37.000 safety. You know, stuff like um, I don't know, let's say, 683 00:49:37.280 --> 00:49:46.079 um wheat germ yeah, okay, or or vitamin yeah, or echinacia. 684 00:49:46.360 --> 00:49:50.719 I mean, you know that stuff is I mean, people have been 685 00:49:50.719 --> 00:49:55.760 consuming many of these plants for millennia and you know they're just not they're not 686 00:49:55.960 --> 00:50:05.920 recognized as being problematic U and so you know, but when you start putter 687 00:50:06.119 --> 00:50:12.800 that have that the human populations have never consumed before. Yeah, it's one 688 00:50:12.840 --> 00:50:15.320 thing that consumer could one particular plan. You know, it's a diet. 689 00:50:15.360 --> 00:50:19.079 You know, when we eat, we might we might eat some green beans 690 00:50:19.079 --> 00:50:23.480 and some corn and some russell sprouts, okay, but anything you kind of 691 00:50:23.480 --> 00:50:27.760 get used to you you're we know, though, those are harmless. When 692 00:50:27.760 --> 00:50:35.880 you start throwing the other interesting botanicals that have some interesting pharmacology, it's one 693 00:50:35.920 --> 00:50:40.199 thing to consume them by themselves, when all together hard to say what the 694 00:50:40.239 --> 00:50:45.280 pharmacology is going to be like. And what I can't emphasize enough is that 695 00:50:46.119 --> 00:50:51.719 with dietary supplements, it's not just a plant that's ground up in a powder 696 00:50:51.760 --> 00:50:54.400 and put into a castle. It's that the powders the plant has dried, 697 00:50:54.440 --> 00:51:00.000 ground up, and then it's extracted. It's extracted with either hot aquiest solutions 698 00:51:00.280 --> 00:51:06.639 or ethanolic solutions or sometimes or other organic solvents to concentrate all these unique phytochemicals 699 00:51:06.719 --> 00:51:10.320 or plant de rive chemicals. And and so you're being exposed to much higher 700 00:51:10.360 --> 00:51:15.760 concentrations of these ingredients than if you just consume the plant in this natural state. 701 00:51:16.280 --> 00:51:21.800 And so, now, granted a lot of these phytochemical combinations are even 702 00:51:21.840 --> 00:51:24.199 if you concentrate them to you know, orders of magnitude more than it would 703 00:51:24.199 --> 00:51:28.639 be in a plant. They're not they're not they're not harmful, but that's 704 00:51:28.679 --> 00:51:31.280 not always the case, you know. And so when you start mixing and 705 00:51:31.320 --> 00:51:38.440 matching different botanical extracts, especially in these multi ingredient uh pre workout supplements. 706 00:51:39.119 --> 00:51:44.559 UM, you oftentimes get some just absolutely crazy stuff that's going to and you 707 00:51:44.559 --> 00:51:45.800 don't they don't they don't do any research on it. Well, you don't 708 00:51:45.840 --> 00:51:49.360 know, you don't know what. So then you have people out in myself 709 00:51:49.360 --> 00:51:52.119 that come along and go o, okay, let's just see what this stuff 710 00:51:52.119 --> 00:51:54.719 actually does. And it's you know, sometimes it's not a big deal, 711 00:51:54.840 --> 00:52:00.159 yeah, and sometimes it's just crazy. I meant a classic example, I 712 00:52:00.239 --> 00:52:04.320 kind of go back to the ephedrac thing when you know, when we first 713 00:52:04.360 --> 00:52:06.480 started getting death threats and stuff, and I said, all right, well 714 00:52:06.519 --> 00:52:08.639 we know, by God bringing on here we go. And so we did. 715 00:52:09.000 --> 00:52:13.400 We did a mouse study, okay, and said a little toxicology study, 716 00:52:13.800 --> 00:52:17.400 and we took several of the top selling ephederic containing supplements, all of 717 00:52:17.440 --> 00:52:22.000 which and then and then we took one just ephedra suf bias and had nothing 718 00:52:22.000 --> 00:52:25.679 else in it, just ephedra, just an ephedrac extract with just efederan alkaloids. 719 00:52:27.519 --> 00:52:31.079 And so we took one capsule of each product, extracted it um and 720 00:52:31.960 --> 00:52:37.159 water and then administered a very small like one hundred micro leaders I forget the 721 00:52:37.159 --> 00:52:43.400 exact block, but it's very small volume to a mouse. And so it 722 00:52:43.480 --> 00:52:51.599 just so happened that the largest dose per milligram per kilogram in the mice of 723 00:52:51.679 --> 00:52:55.679 the efederan alkaloids came from just a plaine ephedra product, nothing else. They 724 00:52:55.719 --> 00:53:02.039 had the highest concentrations of milligram federan alkaloids. All those animals survived the study 725 00:53:02.079 --> 00:53:07.840 no no problems whatsoever. All the other products, all the other mice that 726 00:53:07.920 --> 00:53:14.679 got the individual products like tablife or uh oh, there was one, a 727 00:53:14.719 --> 00:53:19.800 couple of others. Um they all, I mean most of them died within 728 00:53:20.679 --> 00:53:23.840 most two hours on product. One product culled all of them in twenty four 729 00:53:23.880 --> 00:53:29.800 hours. Could So they all had and they're aren't their Their effeder and alkaloid 730 00:53:29.840 --> 00:53:35.960 doses were you know, much much less than just the effect. But they 731 00:53:35.960 --> 00:53:39.440 all had caffeine, they all had other you know, stimulants in there. 732 00:53:39.559 --> 00:53:44.920 And so it just goes to show you that if pedra by itself is not 733 00:53:45.039 --> 00:53:47.639 problematic, but when you throw it in the mix with other ingredients, it 734 00:53:47.719 --> 00:53:52.960 can become very problematic. So you have a lot of additive, sometimes even 735 00:53:52.079 --> 00:53:58.400 centered gistic effects from from all these things together. So it just goes to 736 00:53:58.440 --> 00:54:00.519 show you that one product by itself using not a problem. You start mixing 737 00:54:00.519 --> 00:54:06.239 and matching things and you've never ever in it, and human beings have never 738 00:54:06.280 --> 00:54:09.519 consumed this combination before. It. Don't be surprised if some people don't react 739 00:54:09.639 --> 00:54:14.079 very well. Yeah, so that's just common sense. You know that that 740 00:54:14.199 --> 00:54:16.440 you don't take it doesn't take a PhD and pharmaceutical So I figure that out. 741 00:54:16.599 --> 00:54:21.519 No, So anyway that that goes back to that. So the more 742 00:54:21.679 --> 00:54:27.639 so in my regard, the more complex a formulation is, especially if you 743 00:54:28.360 --> 00:54:32.239 if it has a lot of sympathemimetica means in it, the more problematic it's 744 00:54:32.239 --> 00:54:35.119 going to be. And so you have a lot of those products in the 745 00:54:35.199 --> 00:54:38.440 pre workshop today. Yeah. I always always tell people to if if you 746 00:54:38.559 --> 00:54:42.800 take, if you look at a supplement and if you just the best way 747 00:54:42.840 --> 00:54:45.679 to distinguish one product from the other as far as safety goes, it is 748 00:54:45.719 --> 00:54:50.559 just if you just see a lot of ingredients hidden under a proprietary blend on 749 00:54:50.599 --> 00:54:53.320 a label and probably best just avoid that one if you don't know what it 750 00:54:53.440 --> 00:54:59.239 is. But it's because you have no idea. The individual concentrations is in 751 00:54:59.280 --> 00:55:02.079 that proprietor terry blend and you can kind of get away with adding stuff and 752 00:55:02.159 --> 00:55:07.519 not listing it too. So that's I think the easiest thing, um that 753 00:55:07.000 --> 00:55:12.679 the proprietary blends are. Yeah, they're proprietary, you know, but they've 754 00:55:12.760 --> 00:55:15.239 not done any research for most of these proprietary blands. They just it's just 755 00:55:15.599 --> 00:55:19.920 just happens to be a combination that nobody else is as combined. Yea, 756 00:55:20.239 --> 00:55:23.159 So they call it proprietary. UM. Now every now you know, again 757 00:55:23.239 --> 00:55:25.960 not all of them it that way, but you know, if you if 758 00:55:25.960 --> 00:55:28.880 you you know, we can do a whole we can do a whole pod 759 00:55:28.960 --> 00:55:34.199 just on um extracise performance enhancement supplements. Yeah, we'll probably get into that 760 00:55:34.280 --> 00:55:37.760 at some point for sure. UM Yeah, but you know, to kind 761 00:55:37.760 --> 00:55:43.000 of to kind of shift gears, you know, ethic um at the same 762 00:55:43.039 --> 00:55:46.679 time, simultaneous with with all of our federal research. You know, as 763 00:55:46.719 --> 00:55:52.920 someone who's um fairly well versed in drug drug interactions, you know, the 764 00:55:52.920 --> 00:55:55.519 first thing you think about is, well, I wonder what kind of how 765 00:55:57.199 --> 00:56:01.360 what kind of interactions can these dietary supplements have with conventional medications. So we 766 00:56:01.360 --> 00:56:07.159 were one of the very first groups to actually systematically evaluate some of the very 767 00:56:07.159 --> 00:56:14.639 popular supplements and their ability to modulate human drug metabolism. And just so happens 768 00:56:14.639 --> 00:56:16.400 that one of the very first products we looked at was Saint John's ward. 769 00:56:17.320 --> 00:56:22.000 And Saint John's work by itself is actually it's very innocuous, not a problem. 770 00:56:22.039 --> 00:56:25.320 It actually it's actually from a lot of people take Saint John's work for 771 00:56:25.559 --> 00:56:30.119 its antidepressive effects, you know. And so if you look at some of 772 00:56:30.159 --> 00:56:37.719 the well designed clint that he's done in Europe, a well a high quality 773 00:56:37.800 --> 00:56:45.880 Saint John's WARP product is as good as than most tricyclic anidepressants and most if 774 00:56:45.920 --> 00:56:49.840 not all of the selective serotonin reuptaken him yeah, you know, and the 775 00:56:49.920 --> 00:56:53.679 safety profile is as much as much less h you know, So don't get 776 00:56:53.679 --> 00:56:59.880 a lot of crazy side effectures like you would tricyclic antidepressants, tricycles and nothing 777 00:57:00.280 --> 00:57:02.719 that's a side effect in a BOB results pretty they're not very I mean, 778 00:57:02.760 --> 00:57:06.880 they're not commonly prescribed much anymore. I mean, even from the time I 779 00:57:07.039 --> 00:57:10.360 started, they've kind of gone the way of the dinosaurs. And then you 780 00:57:10.400 --> 00:57:14.320 know, then the whole SSR thing has kind of been blown up recently, 781 00:57:14.719 --> 00:57:19.159 you know, so they may have some is question. Sure, that's that's 782 00:57:19.280 --> 00:57:22.519 something for a whole nother story. But Saint John's ward, the problem with 783 00:57:22.599 --> 00:57:28.280 a lot of SSR eyes is that you have it basically diminishes a lot of 784 00:57:28.280 --> 00:57:31.079 people's libido. YEA, yeah, that's a common counseling point that we that 785 00:57:31.159 --> 00:57:37.000 I talked to Patience about there after most tricycle excuse me, with most SSR 786 00:57:37.039 --> 00:57:40.440 eyes, not the case with Saint John's ward, and but the mechanic. 787 00:57:42.000 --> 00:57:46.800 But what we found is that we were doing one of the very first studies 788 00:57:46.800 --> 00:57:52.840 and we're looking at the data. Um, we found that when you gave 789 00:57:52.960 --> 00:57:55.360 Saint John's ward. For the first study we did, we did it for 790 00:57:55.440 --> 00:58:00.840 thirty days. We had individuals on Saint John's ward for thirty days, and 791 00:58:00.960 --> 00:58:06.039 we looked at their drug metabolizing enzyme activity before and after the thirty day, 792 00:58:06.039 --> 00:58:10.639 of course, and some of the very important drug metabolizing enzymes. At the 793 00:58:10.719 --> 00:58:16.440 end of that thirty days, we saw the activity increased by over WHOA, 794 00:58:16.639 --> 00:58:22.559 that's just that was just crazy? Why what I almost almost liking, like, 795 00:58:22.599 --> 00:58:24.400 man, something's wrong here, Yeah, something must be off. Yeah, 796 00:58:28.000 --> 00:58:31.039 there must be something. This can't be right. Well, and so 797 00:58:31.960 --> 00:58:37.840 about two weeks after I crushed the numbers on that very first clinically that involved 798 00:58:37.880 --> 00:58:43.199 Saint John's work, I got a call from and in fact the study physician 799 00:58:43.840 --> 00:58:46.920 who was part of our He was one of He was my study physician and 800 00:58:47.000 --> 00:58:51.760 all of our clinical studies with herbal Southmones. He was also a transplant He 801 00:58:51.800 --> 00:58:55.679 was also a transplant surgeon. He calls me up one afternoon and he says, 802 00:58:57.119 --> 00:58:59.119 hey, Gurley, he worked with a herbal crap. I've got a 803 00:58:59.199 --> 00:59:01.599 question for you. And he actually used a harsher explicit than craft, but 804 00:59:01.639 --> 00:59:04.639 it had this for letters in it, so you know what that means. 805 00:59:05.199 --> 00:59:09.840 And he said, hey, you think Saint John's working interfere with cyclosporn And 806 00:59:09.880 --> 00:59:13.800 so for people on the podcast, I don't know what cyclosphy is. Cyclo 807 00:59:13.800 --> 00:59:17.800 Sporn is up as an eveno suppressive drug. Their revolutionize solid organ transplantation. 808 00:59:19.400 --> 00:59:24.480 That drug allowed heart, allowed heart, liver kidney transplants to be done on 809 00:59:24.519 --> 00:59:30.559 a regular basis and will to survive for you know, years, decades. 810 00:59:30.440 --> 00:59:34.559 But the problem is with the cyclosporn has a narrow of what we call a 811 00:59:34.920 --> 00:59:38.920 narrow therapeutic window. If the concentrations in your blood are too low, your 812 00:59:38.960 --> 00:59:44.639 body may reject your organ. But if the concentrations are too high, you 813 00:59:44.639 --> 00:59:47.039 can cause some kidney damage, you know. So you're walking a fine line 814 00:59:47.119 --> 00:59:53.119 for sure. Anyway. Yeah, So so my physician buddy calls me up 815 00:59:53.199 --> 00:59:59.119 and I said, so, you've got transplant recipients on cyclosporn and Saint John 816 00:59:59.159 --> 01:00:04.360 spart And he goes out and I said, I said, I'll bet to 817 01:00:04.400 --> 01:00:07.079 psychlist. I said, a bet to psycho sporing levels are really low, 818 01:00:07.239 --> 01:00:10.000 aren't they. There was a long cough own, and he goes, how 819 01:00:10.079 --> 01:00:15.400 the hell did you know that? Of course, psycho sporn is metabolized by 820 01:00:15.400 --> 01:00:21.000 the same enzymes that we saw that were just markedly increased in their activity. 821 01:00:21.119 --> 01:00:23.960 So you would think that, okay, if Saint John's ward is making the 822 01:00:24.599 --> 01:00:29.840 drug, metabolizing enzymes are responsible for the metabolism of psycho sporn. If these 823 01:00:29.880 --> 01:00:35.719 guys are off, if these guys are much ye cranked up induced, as 824 01:00:35.719 --> 01:00:39.920 we say, then you're going to metabolize the psycho sporn much much more efficiently. 825 01:00:40.320 --> 01:00:44.440 And so you're going to have to give and so the regular doses of 826 01:00:44.480 --> 01:00:46.599 psycho sporn are not going to be effective, and so what they were having, 827 01:00:47.000 --> 01:00:51.639 they were having there was four individuals that were in the clinic at the 828 01:00:51.679 --> 01:00:55.039 time that we're having acute rejection. Well uh, and the only reason they 829 01:00:55.039 --> 01:00:59.199 could figure it out was because they were also taking Saint John's ward and out 830 01:00:59.239 --> 01:01:01.679 and that there's an interest stories of how why that came about. But nevertheless, 831 01:01:02.239 --> 01:01:06.800 um that paper. You know, we were the first ones to publish 832 01:01:06.840 --> 01:01:09.199 the clinical relevance of the Saint John's work in right, and we now's work 833 01:01:09.599 --> 01:01:14.719 is one of the most potent inducers of human drug metabolizing enzymes ever discovered. 834 01:01:14.760 --> 01:01:17.800 Yeah, there's a unique camp. There's a unique phytochemical and Saint John's work 835 01:01:17.840 --> 01:01:25.760 called hyperforin um and it's one of the most potent actors of human drug metabolizing 836 01:01:25.800 --> 01:01:29.719 it. Everyone discovered it. It makes rife vamping look sad. I'm not 837 01:01:29.719 --> 01:01:35.760 if you're pretty with rife a drug in treat tuberculosis, and it's it's notorious 838 01:01:35.760 --> 01:01:40.039 for inducing these same drug metabolizing enzymes. Well, the amount of rife vamp 839 01:01:40.079 --> 01:01:45.719 and necessary to induce these enzymes is order of magnitude greater than the amount of 840 01:01:45.800 --> 01:01:50.360 Saint John's Ward so or hyperfery. So, yeah, that got us off 841 01:01:50.400 --> 01:01:52.199 on all that, and so we started looking into all kinds of herb drug 842 01:01:52.239 --> 01:01:57.880 interactions. And that's kind of where I where I kind of got back into 843 01:01:57.920 --> 01:02:01.280 good favor with the dietary suffment endtry so because a lot of them know, 844 01:02:01.440 --> 01:02:05.960 there was this concern that everything's gonna act like Saint John's Wark. Well, 845 01:02:06.159 --> 01:02:09.440 no, right, Saint John's Ward is probably one of maybe a handful of 846 01:02:09.480 --> 01:02:14.280 botanicals that really cause significant What are some of the are some of the other 847 01:02:14.320 --> 01:02:15.639 ones that you can be able to look out because honestly, like, there's 848 01:02:15.639 --> 01:02:19.679 really when I'm when people ask me all the time, hey, you know, 849 01:02:20.079 --> 01:02:22.599 granted I used to not get this question. I get this question quite 850 01:02:22.599 --> 01:02:24.320 often. Now, hey does this interact with other medications that I'm on? 851 01:02:24.599 --> 01:02:28.199 And that's a ninety nine percent of the time. You look at him like, 852 01:02:28.360 --> 01:02:30.400 no, nothing to worry about. But there's a handful that I'm looking 853 01:02:30.440 --> 01:02:35.760 for. Um, Yeah, so you're you're always looking for. Of course 854 01:02:35.760 --> 01:02:38.079 Saint John's of course, now there aren't there are saints you know, now 855 01:02:38.079 --> 01:02:42.320 that we know what's the problematic issue with Saint John's Ward, there are Saint 856 01:02:42.400 --> 01:02:45.880 John's work products that have very low high perfering contour, and they don't and 857 01:02:45.920 --> 01:02:49.920 they don't have to issue, you know, but but you've got to You've 858 01:02:49.920 --> 01:02:52.400 really got to do your homework and know which products to take and which products 859 01:02:52.400 --> 01:02:59.960 not. There's Saint John's Ward. Um, they're not. I will say 860 01:03:00.079 --> 01:03:05.199 this, the vast mentions in dietary sophomones on the market at the moment, 861 01:03:05.880 --> 01:03:09.960 and we've just literally literally just scratched the surface of their interaction potential. But 862 01:03:09.960 --> 01:03:15.840 we didn't know that Saint John's work is a problem. Um. Golden seal, 863 01:03:15.920 --> 01:03:19.000 Yeah, that's another one. I'm familiar with some unique compounds and Golden 864 01:03:19.079 --> 01:03:22.719 seal that work just the opposite of Saints Ward. Instead of inducing metabolized zimes 865 01:03:22.719 --> 01:03:28.679 and making drugs less effective, they inhibit the enzyme activity and make a lot 866 01:03:28.679 --> 01:03:35.039 of other medications toxic. Yeah, so Golden seal. Um, Let's see 867 01:03:35.039 --> 01:03:39.800 what are some of the black pepper extract especially the kirkumen products, and and 868 01:03:39.840 --> 01:03:45.000 the reason it's that is because kirkumen is extensively metabolized in the in the not 869 01:03:45.079 --> 01:03:49.239 only in the gut, but also in the liver, so very little of 870 01:03:49.280 --> 01:03:53.239 the parent Kirkuman gets to the systemic circulation um and the reason for that it's 871 01:03:53.239 --> 01:03:57.159 because it's metabolized as it goes to the gut and the liver. It's called 872 01:03:57.159 --> 01:04:02.000 a first pass effect. So what opponents in black pepper called pippering or pipperamides, 873 01:04:02.039 --> 01:04:05.840 and the pepperamids are oping inhibitors of a lot of these very important rutabolizing 874 01:04:05.960 --> 01:04:11.239 enzymes. And so you throw black pepper extract into a formulation with something like 875 01:04:11.320 --> 01:04:15.320 kirkuman, more kirkumans absorbed systemically. Yeah. Yeah, and that's that's that's 876 01:04:15.639 --> 01:04:18.960 not a problem. Kirkhuman by itself is innocuous, not a problem. But 877 01:04:19.000 --> 01:04:25.239 if you're taking it with some other medication that has an aerotherapeutic window, and 878 01:04:25.360 --> 01:04:28.760 you're taking you're not only you're taking a drug with an aera therapeutic glendow, 879 01:04:28.880 --> 01:04:32.679 but you're also taking it with a pippering containing extract supplement, then it might 880 01:04:32.760 --> 01:04:36.840 make some medications more more time. Yeah. I mean my initial thought would 881 01:04:36.880 --> 01:04:41.320 be like, if you have someone on a medication, let's say, I 882 01:04:41.360 --> 01:04:45.360 mean I don't see phenotoin very much for seizures or anything anymore, not anymore. 883 01:04:45.519 --> 01:04:46.880 Um. Now, granted you can have some people on that, but 884 01:04:46.920 --> 01:04:50.800 there are a few drugs out there, Didge, like certain to jocks and 885 01:04:50.920 --> 01:04:55.679 certain ones that are for with the drug concentrations, and no one would think 886 01:04:56.119 --> 01:05:01.199 twice about taking Kirkuman or tumeric because it's you know, it gets advertised on 887 01:05:02.239 --> 01:05:04.719 TV all the time if your joints hurt and you feel like you know, 888 01:05:04.719 --> 01:05:09.960 blah blah blah. So I always try to recommend to PhD asomble preparation of 889 01:05:09.960 --> 01:05:12.800 that just to kind of avoid that, because I also see not a lot 890 01:05:12.880 --> 01:05:15.199 not only is there the drug interaction potential there, which isn't I'm not super 891 01:05:15.199 --> 01:05:20.800 concerned really, but a lot of people complain about it that they taste of 892 01:05:20.840 --> 01:05:25.320 that stuff. Like they're like I when I take those submits and like I 893 01:05:25.400 --> 01:05:27.880 have you know, if I get a little indigestion later, like I taste 894 01:05:27.880 --> 01:05:30.480 it, I hate it. And like they'll they'll bring sometimes even bring products 895 01:05:30.480 --> 01:05:33.079 back and go, I don't want anything that has that peppery crap in it. 896 01:05:33.440 --> 01:05:36.079 And it's like, okay, yeah, I mean I get why, 897 01:05:38.000 --> 01:05:43.159 but yeah, there's a there's a there's a there's a reason why the Golden 898 01:05:43.199 --> 01:05:48.760 seal and the pepperine of the Black pepper because they're they're sources of phytochemicals that 899 01:05:48.880 --> 01:05:58.440 have a particular organic molecule molecular structure that we recognize now as a problem. 900 01:05:58.639 --> 01:06:00.559 And there are a lot of plants, and plants make all kinds of these 901 01:06:00.559 --> 01:06:05.599 phytochemicals that have this particular structure. The reason for that is because they're good. 902 01:06:05.960 --> 01:06:12.400 They're good insecticide. So plants make these compounds to keep to keep the 903 01:06:12.440 --> 01:06:15.000 bugs away, to keep the bugs from chewing on them eating them up. 904 01:06:15.760 --> 01:06:20.119 But when we as humans ingest these compounds, you know, they have some 905 01:06:20.199 --> 01:06:30.079 other pharmacological aspects and they inhibit these drug metabolizing enzymes. And so there's stuff 906 01:06:30.119 --> 01:06:35.840 like chis drum and um let's see Chisandra, golden seal, black pepper. 907 01:06:38.480 --> 01:06:44.000 Those are there's a handful of others. If there's um, but the vast 908 01:06:45.800 --> 01:06:49.320 while the while there isn't, there's always a risk for an herb drug interaction 909 01:06:49.400 --> 01:06:55.519 potential. It looks like the vast majority are don't really pose a risk. 910 01:06:55.840 --> 01:06:59.960 There's a reason for that. It's because a lot of phytochemicals don't get more 911 01:07:00.199 --> 01:07:01.800 very well. Yeah, so if they don't get absored, they're not gonna 912 01:07:01.800 --> 01:07:04.800 be a problem. Yeah. A common example that I've I've talked to our 913 01:07:04.840 --> 01:07:10.639 wellness department about a couple of times is a lot of people, you know 914 01:07:10.800 --> 01:07:15.280 now that the ever since of the low fat diet craze kind of went out 915 01:07:15.280 --> 01:07:17.280 the window in the nineties and it kind of shifted, you know, it 916 01:07:17.400 --> 01:07:21.639 was fats the enemy. Now, then it was carbs, and then now 917 01:07:21.679 --> 01:07:25.360 it's seed oils, which I'm gonna debunk here in a minute because there's just 918 01:07:25.360 --> 01:07:30.159 no claims. It's so ridiculous. But anyway, the low carb community an 919 01:07:30.159 --> 01:07:33.280 insulin resistance, and all these buzzwords around blood shirt control popular. So people 920 01:07:33.320 --> 01:07:36.199 come in and go, hey, what can I take to help with blood 921 01:07:36.199 --> 01:07:41.400 shugar control? They're like, I've heard about acromancia, which is just a 922 01:07:41.440 --> 01:07:45.840 probiotic that helps you know, you can control blood shugar responses. And they 923 01:07:45.840 --> 01:07:48.679 got to an extent, I just buying harmony. But the most common thing 924 01:07:48.719 --> 01:07:53.400 that people talk about is like brain. They're like, I don't want to 925 01:07:53.400 --> 01:07:56.199 be on that, foreman, but my doctor said burberin would probably be something 926 01:07:56.199 --> 01:08:00.639 pretty similar because it behaves pretty similarly. And I have no problem telling people 927 01:08:00.039 --> 01:08:05.239 you're just gonna waste your money because the way chemically that burbering is structured. 928 01:08:05.440 --> 01:08:10.000 It isn't going to get absorbed to any to any extent. And even that 929 01:08:10.119 --> 01:08:15.039 dihydra is it dihydro burbering. The other preparation, it's different. There's another 930 01:08:15.079 --> 01:08:19.000 one that I think is like a little bit more soluble. Um where yeah, 931 01:08:19.439 --> 01:08:26.039 you know, I mean is is what we call a quatamarama, which 932 01:08:26.199 --> 01:08:30.039 has apartment of charge on it, which that alone makes it difficult to be 933 01:08:30.079 --> 01:08:36.960 absorbed UM with and so it's not going to be Now it might have me 934 01:08:38.000 --> 01:08:41.920 on the gut Michael flora, Um, but exactly what that is yet? 935 01:08:43.520 --> 01:08:49.720 Um, some a very a very very small amount of burbering will I'm not 936 01:08:49.800 --> 01:08:55.279 sure that that's enough to have It might be enough to have some significant impact 937 01:08:55.680 --> 01:09:00.000 on blood sugar that kind of stuff. The jury still out that we really 938 01:09:00.000 --> 01:09:04.920 don't know, um and what what I'm matting. Are absorbed do get metabolized 939 01:09:04.960 --> 01:09:11.359 pretty extensively, They get glucuroni dated and so now it's possible that some of 940 01:09:11.359 --> 01:09:15.600 those glucuronides are active the dogma is aren't active. Yeah, but that's not 941 01:09:15.840 --> 01:09:21.920 we know that's not the case. Classic example is with the morphine morphine six 942 01:09:23.000 --> 01:09:27.279 glucuronide is extremely potent stuff and it actually crosses a blood brain barrier. So 943 01:09:27.680 --> 01:09:31.760 there's an example of a natural product, morphine from opium, whose glucuronide is 944 01:09:31.800 --> 01:09:35.880 active. You know, so it's possible that verberate and glucuronides might be active. 945 01:09:35.920 --> 01:09:40.239 I No, one's really no, one's really tease that out. Sure, 946 01:09:40.960 --> 01:09:45.760 um, but if you just you know, now, so does it 947 01:09:45.880 --> 01:09:49.560 have Some ethicas out there suggest that it does, you know, and there 948 01:09:49.640 --> 01:09:56.119 isn't There is an interaction potential there because it does have it's one of the 949 01:09:56.239 --> 01:10:00.479 it falls into that category of phytochemicals that have this it's called a methylane dioxy 950 01:10:00.560 --> 01:10:04.800 fennel functional groups. I know what it is because I've listened to you talking 951 01:10:04.800 --> 01:10:09.600 about it before. But yeah, but unless you're an organic chemist, you 952 01:10:09.640 --> 01:10:12.359 know, you're not gonna make you know. But nevertheless, like I said, 953 01:10:12.760 --> 01:10:15.399 plants make a lot of these molecules and have that methylane dots and fenyl 954 01:10:15.399 --> 01:10:19.039 functional group, and they're good, you know, they're they're good insecticides as 955 01:10:19.039 --> 01:10:23.119 far as plants concerned. But when we ingest those that can inhibit a lot 956 01:10:23.159 --> 01:10:26.960 of drug and catalyzing enzymes, not all of them do because it depends upon 957 01:10:27.000 --> 01:10:30.560 their physical chemistry. And yeah, that's a whole other, a whole another 958 01:10:30.600 --> 01:10:35.479 topic to getting into at some point. But the vast majority is there potential 959 01:10:35.479 --> 01:10:40.920 for HERB drug interactions? Yes? How problematic? Is it a handful right 960 01:10:40.960 --> 01:10:44.399 now? Not really? Probably not that big of a deal as as you 961 01:10:44.560 --> 01:10:47.760 might like. Um And if you look at UM, there a lot of 962 01:10:47.760 --> 01:10:53.119 there are a lot of good resources for information of guards, but a lot 963 01:10:53.119 --> 01:10:58.199 of that is based on in vitro day. Yeah, and so if you're 964 01:10:58.239 --> 01:11:00.680 given enough just to kind of pause for a second, like, could you 965 01:11:00.840 --> 01:11:03.760 I haven't really gotten a chance to do a deep dive on study design, 966 01:11:03.800 --> 01:11:06.640 which I plan on doing even though that podcast is going to be super borous. 967 01:11:06.680 --> 01:11:10.800 We're going to trudge through it. But can you explain to people the 968 01:11:10.840 --> 01:11:14.520 difference? But like what that means because you'll hear mouse studies, animal studies, 969 01:11:14.600 --> 01:11:17.000 human clinical trials, and you'll hold this other study or cell culture studies 970 01:11:17.039 --> 01:11:20.760 or in vitro, can you explain like kind of why that assigns like yourself 971 01:11:20.800 --> 01:11:25.640 may pick that study design over say trying to do like a mouse study like 972 01:11:25.680 --> 01:11:30.239 you've done as well before. Yeah, so you basically can throw all studies 973 01:11:30.239 --> 01:11:34.680 into two basic categories, in vitro or in vivo. In vivo means in 974 01:11:34.800 --> 01:11:40.920 a live body, whether that body is a mouse or a rat or a 975 01:11:41.000 --> 01:11:46.319 human, right, and of course rats metabolize things differently than humans, do 976 01:11:46.439 --> 01:11:50.359 you know, So an animal study may show something, does that mean that's 977 01:11:50.399 --> 01:11:54.319 going to doesn't mean that that's going to be the same effect in a human 978 01:11:54.640 --> 01:11:59.880 Usually not. Sometimes it is, but not always, And so a lot 979 01:11:59.880 --> 01:12:02.319 of times what people will do they look at what's called it in vitro study. 980 01:12:02.520 --> 01:12:06.359 In vitro studies basically, for lack of a better term, end glass 981 01:12:06.720 --> 01:12:12.239 in a tube so to speak, a test tube or n a ditch. 982 01:12:12.640 --> 01:12:15.279 So what does that mean? Well, that means typically you either have some 983 01:12:15.640 --> 01:12:20.399 cells some individuals, like, for example, liver cells apatocytes, and you 984 01:12:20.479 --> 01:12:29.079 may expose that the apatocytes two different phytochemical concentrations and see whether or not the 985 01:12:29.119 --> 01:12:34.159 activity of those enzymes in those apatocytes are effective. Sometimes you can just have 986 01:12:34.239 --> 01:12:41.680 their hide enzyme in in vitro study too, but invariably, if you add 987 01:12:41.800 --> 01:12:45.640 enough of anything, you'll affect whether it'll be induciens or inhibit the enzyme or 988 01:12:45.680 --> 01:12:51.880 whatever. Okay, and a lot of times these concentrations that are necessary to 989 01:12:51.920 --> 01:13:00.680 elicit a response in an in vitro study or oftentimes orders of magnitude high you 990 01:13:00.720 --> 01:13:04.880 would ever see in a human view that product, uh, in a human 991 01:13:04.880 --> 01:13:13.520 being, because as human beings, our guts, our livers, they they're 992 01:13:13.960 --> 01:13:18.560 they're protective mechanisms, you know, so they see all foreign compounds we call 993 01:13:18.800 --> 01:13:23.720 xenobiotics. You know, look, I'm kind of this is not I'm not 994 01:13:23.760 --> 01:13:27.520 familiar with this. I'm going to do something to it so I can get 995 01:13:27.600 --> 01:13:30.920 rid of it. And so, your your gut has a lot of these 996 01:13:30.960 --> 01:13:34.640 drug metabolizing enzymes. Your liver has these drug metabolizing enzymes. And so when 997 01:13:34.680 --> 01:13:40.960 you ingest a foreign compound, you know, a xenobiotic, whether it's a 998 01:13:40.960 --> 01:13:45.840 phytochemical or a drug. Uh, your body reacts to it as I don't 999 01:13:45.880 --> 01:13:48.640 recognize it's not going to I'm going to change it to make it we can 1000 01:13:48.720 --> 01:13:50.600 get it out of here. I don't want to see it yet, Yeah 1001 01:13:50.640 --> 01:13:58.399 and so and so um From an in vitro's perspective, you know, a 1002 01:13:58.399 --> 01:14:00.319 lot of the time as you can enlisten response in vitro, but that may 1003 01:14:00.319 --> 01:14:08.479 not have any bearing whatsoever on and in vivo a clinical study. Sure, 1004 01:14:08.479 --> 01:14:13.359 the same that you always were always with the translational just the data results from 1005 01:14:13.399 --> 01:14:17.640 an in vitro study translate to the clinical correct. Yeah, And unfortunately, 1006 01:14:17.800 --> 01:14:23.960 unfortunately, especially now and this is common in nutrition research too, is that 1007 01:14:24.119 --> 01:14:27.680 you know they'll people will say, oh, well, you know they'll if 1008 01:14:27.720 --> 01:14:30.279 they cite a study at all, which is the first big problem. Most 1009 01:14:30.279 --> 01:14:31.840 of them just put stuff out there and don't you know, do any due 1010 01:14:31.880 --> 01:14:35.199 diligence to cite sources. But if they do, they may go find or 1011 01:14:35.239 --> 01:14:40.000 they may google it real quick and go find a cell study and so, 1012 01:14:40.079 --> 01:14:43.039 oh see, look at all these negative things in this cell study. It's 1013 01:14:43.079 --> 01:14:46.079 bad, it causes cancer or it does whatever, when in reality or sitting 1014 01:14:46.119 --> 01:14:50.279 there going it's it's a cell culture study. Like the reason you do is 1015 01:14:50.359 --> 01:14:54.960 cell culture studies to see what might be going on, and then you conduct 1016 01:14:54.960 --> 01:14:59.479 the animal study to see if that actually translates like you've like you've talked about 1017 01:15:00.399 --> 01:15:04.399 so just because now again cell culture studies are super important and sometimes that's all 1018 01:15:04.439 --> 01:15:09.600 you can do. It might not be it might not be ethical to do 1019 01:15:09.680 --> 01:15:15.520 that study in humans or or mice for that example, Um, because what 1020 01:15:15.560 --> 01:15:18.800 people don't realize and you're the head of the Institutional Animal Care and Use Committee, 1021 01:15:19.399 --> 01:15:24.319 is people still have this kind of stigma that like animal research is cruel 1022 01:15:24.399 --> 01:15:27.520 and all this evil stuff and oh no, it's I mean, they don't 1023 01:15:27.560 --> 01:15:30.680 realize what all it goes into it. So, so can you put people's 1024 01:15:30.680 --> 01:15:32.640 minds at these real quick and kind of keep it brief on like what that 1025 01:15:32.720 --> 01:15:38.279 institution's there to do and why like why why do we care about mice? 1026 01:15:39.000 --> 01:15:43.119 You know my kind of you know, you can they're useful, they're you 1027 01:15:43.159 --> 01:15:45.520 know, they're easy, too easy to use in a study, But like, 1028 01:15:45.159 --> 01:15:48.239 why do we care so much about you know, if it's ethical to 1029 01:15:48.279 --> 01:15:53.199 do something for like mice or something. I'm just well, it's ethical. 1030 01:15:53.399 --> 01:15:58.359 It's ethical if you if you're if you treat the animals humanely, right and 1031 01:15:58.439 --> 01:16:00.319 so, and they're you know, we can do a whole podcast on this. 1032 01:16:00.479 --> 01:16:05.119 But the purpose for you know, if you're for all drugs to all 1033 01:16:05.199 --> 01:16:11.479 drug companies, before they put a molecule of some suspective drug into a human 1034 01:16:11.520 --> 01:16:15.319 being, you have to see whether it's going to be safe. And so 1035 01:16:15.119 --> 01:16:18.800 oftentimes what will happen is you'll use an animal model, a mouse or a 1036 01:16:18.880 --> 01:16:24.399 rat. And mice and rats, you know, they're they're pretty hardy into 1037 01:16:24.479 --> 01:16:27.479 they're pretty hardy beings. You know, it's hard. It's pretty hard to 1038 01:16:27.560 --> 01:16:31.880 mouse or a rat because they're used to eating you know, nasty stuff and 1039 01:16:31.960 --> 01:16:38.239 they have really really good, uh, metabolic systems to metabolize a lot of 1040 01:16:38.239 --> 01:16:42.039 this stuff. So if something you're giving to or a rat, if it 1041 01:16:42.119 --> 01:16:46.640 causes them some toxicity, yeah, probably not going to be very good for 1042 01:16:46.680 --> 01:16:50.119 the human beings. So we we we we really use animals. It's kind 1043 01:16:50.119 --> 01:16:55.239 of a you know, the canary in a coal mine, so to speak. 1044 01:16:55.279 --> 01:17:00.239 You know, we expose animals to these compounds just to see, you 1045 01:17:00.279 --> 01:17:02.520 know, and we don't we don't try to kill them. Yeah, you 1046 01:17:02.560 --> 01:17:05.199 just try to see where you start, just where you start to see some 1047 01:17:05.199 --> 01:17:09.640 some wart effects, and then once you get so far, you go, 1048 01:17:09.720 --> 01:17:12.399 okay, we're good. You know, we don't want to just purposely kill 1049 01:17:12.439 --> 01:17:15.800 them. Though. You never do a study. You know, a study 1050 01:17:15.800 --> 01:17:18.920 would never get good. Uh, it would never get approved by the Institutional 1051 01:17:18.960 --> 01:17:23.680 Animal Care and Use Committee if death was an endpoint, right, that's not 1052 01:17:23.840 --> 01:17:27.600 no, we we we you will you will you will do a study to 1053 01:17:27.640 --> 01:17:30.680 see what type of untoward effects if they're if there are any, and you 1054 01:17:30.720 --> 01:17:33.199 can kind of you know, you don't, you know, as scientists know 1055 01:17:33.279 --> 01:17:38.800 what what you're looking. Sure, when you start to see certain certain hallmarks 1056 01:17:38.800 --> 01:17:41.640 of a study that now this is start, this is going in a bad 1057 01:17:41.800 --> 01:17:45.960 direction, you'll stop it. Sure. And I don't think people realize either 1058 01:17:45.000 --> 01:17:48.159 that when you do these studies, because I've done I've done rat pup studies 1059 01:17:48.199 --> 01:17:51.600 myself, um when I before pharmacy school, but when I got my feet 1060 01:17:51.640 --> 01:17:57.359 wet and research labs. These animals are fed three times a day. They're 1061 01:17:57.439 --> 01:18:01.239 kept comfortable like there's there's if you're gonna do some type of surgical procedure like 1062 01:18:01.279 --> 01:18:04.399 we had to do when we were doing the sequal ligation and puncture to study 1063 01:18:04.439 --> 01:18:09.560 sepsis, they were under anesthesia, they never felt any pain. They were 1064 01:18:09.600 --> 01:18:14.920 given medications if necessary. And these things these little rat pups, man, 1065 01:18:15.000 --> 01:18:20.119 I mean, you would purposefully induce a in a state where they're not gonna 1066 01:18:20.159 --> 01:18:25.119 make it if you just if you keep it going, just to see how 1067 01:18:25.159 --> 01:18:27.439 they responded. And a lot of these a rat pups, you is, 1068 01:18:27.520 --> 01:18:30.800 as soon as you saw the markers you were looking for, you stopped, 1069 01:18:30.920 --> 01:18:34.199 you stopped, you reverse the procedure, and then they lived. They lived 1070 01:18:34.239 --> 01:18:38.119 just like normal, and they responded pretty quickly. But there's a lot of 1071 01:18:38.159 --> 01:18:42.840 steps in there to keep it humane and keep it ethicals that people don't realize 1072 01:18:43.119 --> 01:18:47.880 are part of the game. People aren't out there purposely torturing a Yeah, 1073 01:18:47.920 --> 01:18:50.880 that's just not No, that does not happen. And if you think that's 1074 01:18:50.920 --> 01:18:54.720 the case, so you're just stupid, you don't know, you don't understand. 1075 01:18:54.840 --> 01:18:58.840 Yeah, you know, we go to great lengths to make sure that 1076 01:18:58.920 --> 01:19:01.600 the animals are taking care, are are humanly treated. You've got vets on 1077 01:19:01.720 --> 01:19:05.520 staff that that yeah, oh yeah better. Yeah, it's just I mean, 1078 01:19:05.880 --> 01:19:10.479 the animals get oftentimes get better care that most. You guarantee that the 1079 01:19:10.479 --> 01:19:14.439 case. Um, so yeah, but you have to have you have to 1080 01:19:14.479 --> 01:19:16.960 have animal research. Without it, we wouldn't have on the market, right, 1081 01:19:17.039 --> 01:19:21.640 you wouldn't have any surgical procedure on the mark you know. So animals 1082 01:19:21.680 --> 01:19:30.560 have saved Animal research has saved millions of people's lives simply because of of what 1083 01:19:30.600 --> 01:19:36.159 we learned about whether a drug or a procedure or a disease for that matter, 1084 01:19:36.279 --> 01:19:42.319 So it's it's essential. Yeah. Without without animal research, you would 1085 01:19:42.359 --> 01:19:47.239 not have a current state of medicine. Just yeah, yeah, for sure. 1086 01:19:47.319 --> 01:19:51.039 I mean it's super important in like I think it's important too. And 1087 01:19:51.199 --> 01:19:56.880 again it's to the audience listening. When you're trying to interpret research and when 1088 01:19:56.880 --> 01:19:59.560 you're googling it and trying to figure out, you know, if this paper 1089 01:19:59.640 --> 01:20:01.600 is going to translate, if it's something you should pay attention to, you 1090 01:20:01.720 --> 01:20:05.880 have to look at what study design it was, was it in animals? 1091 01:20:05.920 --> 01:20:10.279 And then then after you see the negative effects and animals, okay, is 1092 01:20:10.279 --> 01:20:13.920 there any human clinical trial data that backs that up? So you have to 1093 01:20:13.960 --> 01:20:15.319 do a little bit. You have to do your homework, so to speak, 1094 01:20:15.319 --> 01:20:18.680 and it's not the easiest thing to do. But all the time you 1095 01:20:18.720 --> 01:20:23.159 see people going, oh, well, this mouse study confirmed that this uh, 1096 01:20:23.520 --> 01:20:27.119 you know, food additive or whatever causes cancer. It's like that that 1097 01:20:27.159 --> 01:20:30.920 doesn't occur. And then you've alluded to earlier with supplements that you know a 1098 01:20:30.920 --> 01:20:35.399 lot of these drugs have potent insecticides in there just as a defense mechanism. 1099 01:20:35.439 --> 01:20:42.439 Well that's that whole defense mechanism concept has just taken the nutrition world by storm. 1100 01:20:42.479 --> 01:20:45.800 And there's these uh I hate. I don't want to name drop him, 1101 01:20:45.800 --> 01:20:46.720 but like I don't know if you know who, just I'll tell you 1102 01:20:46.760 --> 01:20:50.079 about it off the office supporting. Yeah he's not. He's in that case 1103 01:20:50.760 --> 01:20:56.560 anyway. His whole spield is plants are toxic and trying to kill you because 1104 01:20:56.600 --> 01:21:00.000 the plant defense chemical. He put out a video recently just dogging on oatmeal 1105 01:21:00.079 --> 01:21:03.520 saying there's facet in here and it's going to absorb all these minerals and keelate 1106 01:21:03.560 --> 01:21:08.079 them. So you're not gonna You're gonna cause nutritional deficiencies and blab bluey bla, 1107 01:21:08.359 --> 01:21:11.640 and people eat that up like, oh yeah, you hate vegetables. 1108 01:21:11.640 --> 01:21:15.760 They taste bad and exactly, I'm definitely not eating them now because this guy 1109 01:21:15.880 --> 01:21:19.960 in the grocery store is telling me that kale is bullshit, and I just 1110 01:21:20.079 --> 01:21:25.439 it's got all these defense chemicals, so like it's just crazy. Yeah, 1111 01:21:25.479 --> 01:21:28.640 we're talked about talking about phytic acid, you know. So yeah, phytic 1112 01:21:28.640 --> 01:21:30.960 acid can complex a lot of it can complex a lot of metal, a 1113 01:21:30.960 --> 01:21:34.960 lot of metals like iron and stuff, you know, and but phytic acid 1114 01:21:35.159 --> 01:21:39.880 does not get absorbed bove alum. Phytic acid is virtually zero. Yeah, 1115 01:21:39.920 --> 01:21:45.039 all right, So now what's really interesting is that your body makes phytic acid. 1116 01:21:45.760 --> 01:21:49.079 Okay, so there's a reason it's doing it, but you know, 1117 01:21:49.119 --> 01:21:51.960 so you get it's it all boils down to the fact that a lot of 1118 01:21:51.960 --> 01:21:59.439 these guys that like you say that start writing I start start oh waving the 1119 01:22:00.119 --> 01:22:05.319 bloody rag, you know, and oftentimes they just don't back of everything. 1120 01:22:05.359 --> 01:22:12.159 They well they can be um, they're they're just putting on they're putting out 1121 01:22:12.199 --> 01:22:15.159 some very you know, some bad information. Yeah. So yeah, it's 1122 01:22:15.359 --> 01:22:18.960 it's all you cook. When you cook things that are high and phytic acid, 1123 01:22:19.000 --> 01:22:23.319 a lot of that fidic acid's destroyed through the cooking process. So and 1124 01:22:23.359 --> 01:22:27.560 then you're talking about even less fight acid you're being exposed to and it's bioavailability 1125 01:22:27.680 --> 01:22:31.439 zero. So it make complex some stuff to a degree, but if you're 1126 01:22:31.439 --> 01:22:34.800 eating enough of a well balanced diet, you're out do any effects that that 1127 01:22:34.840 --> 01:22:39.520 fight of gas and maybe having So I mean, that's like saying, you 1128 01:22:39.520 --> 01:22:42.960 know, we've got a whole fighting It's like saying apples are deadly. You 1129 01:22:43.000 --> 01:22:46.159 know, apples are a great source of phytic acid. But oh, there's 1130 01:22:46.199 --> 01:22:50.000 there's there's people some social media that will argue that fruits are toxic and killing 1131 01:22:50.079 --> 01:22:53.199 us. I mean, it's it's a U see it all the time, 1132 01:22:53.760 --> 01:22:59.079 uh, commonly referred to, Well they're they're coated with pesticides. Um yeah, 1133 01:22:59.079 --> 01:23:01.159 I guess herbicide and things like that, like the process that are they're 1134 01:23:01.199 --> 01:23:08.119 causing all these issues in reality? Um well, my first retort to that 1135 01:23:08.239 --> 01:23:11.359 is, okay, well you won't always wash your vegetables in your fruit, 1136 01:23:11.560 --> 01:23:14.840 you know, baking soda or vinegar or whatever you want. You can wash 1137 01:23:14.920 --> 01:23:17.359 them that'll get rid of the pesticides, very little leeches into the actual fruit 1138 01:23:17.359 --> 01:23:23.520 itself or whatever exactly. Or you could go, well, if we just 1139 01:23:23.520 --> 01:23:26.960 just not use any herbicides or pesticides, so we won't have any crops because 1140 01:23:26.960 --> 01:23:29.680 they'll all get destroyed and eaten by the bugs and the animals that are going 1141 01:23:29.760 --> 01:23:32.159 to feed on them. So it's a it's a it's a fine balance, 1142 01:23:32.279 --> 01:23:35.600 Joe. As as you know, one of my favorite, one of my 1143 01:23:35.640 --> 01:23:40.880 favorite mottos is everything in moderation. You know, so if you go off 1144 01:23:40.920 --> 01:23:44.399 on a tangent one way or the other, you know, invariably good things 1145 01:23:44.479 --> 01:23:46.359 usually don't have or no, but everything in moderation, you know, but 1146 01:23:46.560 --> 01:23:51.840 you have to and that's you also have to uh your information that gets you 1147 01:23:51.880 --> 01:23:55.600 off. I have to moderate too because a lot here's a lot of junk 1148 01:23:55.640 --> 01:23:58.359 science out there too, a lot of people that are putting out at our 1149 01:23:58.760 --> 01:24:00.720 you know, they'll take one thing and run with it, like you said, 1150 01:24:00.720 --> 01:24:04.640 go off on some crazy tangent and like it has no relevance whatsoever. 1151 01:24:04.800 --> 01:24:11.000 So um, you just have to you know it. Consumers they need to 1152 01:24:11.159 --> 01:24:14.880 educate themselves, and they're you know, and they're they're they're looking at podcasts 1153 01:24:14.920 --> 01:24:19.239 and they're listening to podcasts and and and they're trying to educate themselves. But 1154 01:24:19.319 --> 01:24:24.920 even even then, you can get miseducated by sure people that don't really know 1155 01:24:25.000 --> 01:24:28.399 what's going on for sure, Um, and I certainly don't claim to know 1156 01:24:28.520 --> 01:24:30.479 everything. There is nobody neither do. I mean that would be we'd both 1157 01:24:30.479 --> 01:24:35.399 be pretty ignorant to claim. Otherwise that would be the you know that the 1158 01:24:36.640 --> 01:24:41.199 apotheosis of Hubrist. And that's not me, you know, right, I 1159 01:24:41.479 --> 01:24:45.159 uh we both are. You taught me growing out, stay in your lane. 1160 01:24:45.319 --> 01:24:48.239 And if you if you don't know, it's fine to admit that you 1161 01:24:48.319 --> 01:24:54.680 don't know, then the network and find someone who does know. I mean, 1162 01:24:54.760 --> 01:24:57.319 you have tons of right to say I don't know. Yeah, I 1163 01:24:57.399 --> 01:25:00.680 don't know. It depends well, it depends on X factor or in this 1164 01:25:00.920 --> 01:25:06.840 context maybe like they're scientists who use that phraseology is it sounds like we're trying 1165 01:25:06.880 --> 01:25:10.680 to not answer your question, but in reality, we're trying to get you 1166 01:25:10.760 --> 01:25:15.159 to think more as to there's more nuanced to it exactly. And and if 1167 01:25:15.520 --> 01:25:17.479 if I don't know something, you know, I'll freely admit it I don't 1168 01:25:17.520 --> 01:25:21.640 know it, but I will certainly figure it out the research and try to 1169 01:25:21.800 --> 01:25:27.199 find out and answer for you if that's possible based on the based on the 1170 01:25:27.239 --> 01:25:32.239 evidence it's out there, um And So that's another nice thing is that pharmacists 1171 01:25:32.960 --> 01:25:38.880 are well trained to make sense out of all the all the literature that's out 1172 01:25:38.960 --> 01:25:43.760 there, um and and can extract, you know, what's useful and what's 1173 01:25:43.800 --> 01:25:46.840 not useful, and what's applicable and what's not applicable. And so that's why 1174 01:25:46.880 --> 01:25:51.439 I think pharmacists are you know, are some of one of the probably one 1175 01:25:51.479 --> 01:25:57.439 of the probably not the only, but they're they're trained in medicine, they're 1176 01:25:57.479 --> 01:26:01.800 trained in pharmacology they're training. You know, they have such a broad experience 1177 01:26:01.880 --> 01:26:08.520 with regards to chemistry and pharmacology and Madison and enthusiology and dot a dot that 1178 01:26:08.760 --> 01:26:14.720 physicians aren't. But when it comes to medications and dietary soft months, I'm 1179 01:26:14.760 --> 01:26:19.239 going to put much more my faith in a well edged uh pharmacists that I 1180 01:26:19.359 --> 01:26:24.199 am going to any other type of healthcare professional. And that's just because I 1181 01:26:24.680 --> 01:26:28.600 underfron right, and you know, I think it's kind of cool to see 1182 01:26:29.399 --> 01:26:32.079 how um, you're starting to see that diology is like because you know, 1183 01:26:32.199 --> 01:26:36.119 if you you watch a TV commercial, we're one of the few nations I 1184 01:26:36.199 --> 01:26:40.439 think us in New Zealand are the only people that do direct to consumer advertising 1185 01:26:40.479 --> 01:26:43.479 for drugs, which I don't really think is useful because you can't ask your 1186 01:26:43.560 --> 01:26:47.520 Doctor's so stupid you can't you can't ask your Hey doc. I saw a 1187 01:26:47.600 --> 01:26:51.119 commercial on TV last night for sky Rizzie. Can I have a prescription for 1188 01:26:51.199 --> 01:26:55.439 that? It's like, that's a fifteen thousand dollars drug for an autoimmune condition 1189 01:26:55.520 --> 01:26:59.640 you do not have. UM, don't get me started. Oh yeah, 1190 01:26:59.640 --> 01:27:01.920 we won't. We won't go down that rabbit hole. You're starting to see 1191 01:27:02.039 --> 01:27:08.359 on these supplement commercials or these even drug commercials to ask your doctor or pharmacist, 1192 01:27:08.880 --> 01:27:11.079 which is good because he used to say ask your doctor if you have 1193 01:27:11.119 --> 01:27:15.399 any questions. Yeah, when in reality, if it's a herbal dietary supplement, 1194 01:27:15.439 --> 01:27:17.720 I would I there's a lot of there. I'm sure there are docs 1195 01:27:17.720 --> 01:27:19.840 out there. I know a handful of them that are pretty well versed in 1196 01:27:19.920 --> 01:27:24.880 it. One of my buddies that is pretty good in dietary something also happens 1197 01:27:24.920 --> 01:27:30.479 to be a pharmacist. But so he's but even patience record, you're going 1198 01:27:30.520 --> 01:27:35.399 to know more in the supplement than my doctor will. Yeah, and you 1199 01:27:35.479 --> 01:27:39.439 know there's a lot of natural paths out there that a lot of natural paths 1200 01:27:39.479 --> 01:27:43.079 are good too. A lot of convensional physicians will put a natural pass, 1201 01:27:43.199 --> 01:27:45.199 but you know, when it comes to dietary suppments, you'd be hard probably 1202 01:27:45.359 --> 01:27:50.000 knows more about than than a naturopath. The only problem I have with with 1203 01:27:50.600 --> 01:27:55.479 I won't even say have with natural paths. It's that I feel like and 1204 01:27:55.600 --> 01:27:59.319 this is just my opinion, so this isn't I'm not speaking for anyone else 1205 01:27:59.359 --> 01:28:01.680 here. I think there's a middle ground anywhere. I don't want to be 1206 01:28:02.000 --> 01:28:04.479 all in on the pharmacy camp. I don't want to be all in on 1207 01:28:04.560 --> 01:28:08.640 the supplement camp. Like we can work together just like we're supposed to as 1208 01:28:08.680 --> 01:28:13.840 healthcare professionals anyway. You know, natural solutions are freaking fantastic if you can 1209 01:28:13.880 --> 01:28:15.880 do it in a safe way and work with your natural path who also collaborates 1210 01:28:15.920 --> 01:28:18.680 with your pharmacists, who's also all in the loops, so we're all on 1211 01:28:18.720 --> 01:28:23.359 the same page. That's where it's gonna be most beneficial. I think we 1212 01:28:23.479 --> 01:28:27.479 do a really poor job of, even as healthcare professionals, of putting other 1213 01:28:29.199 --> 01:28:32.479 professions in boxes and just not touching it, like, oh, natural paths, 1214 01:28:32.800 --> 01:28:35.840 you know, and they're not credible. He's just a pharmacist. They 1215 01:28:35.880 --> 01:28:40.119 just know about medications, or they're just an MD blah blah blah. So 1216 01:28:40.279 --> 01:28:43.680 it's there's unfortunately still a lot of that. There always will be. But 1217 01:28:45.199 --> 01:28:46.520 but yeah, natural paths, we work with a lot of them, and 1218 01:28:46.680 --> 01:28:50.239 they're very well versed on supplements, but they still ask us pharmacists a lot 1219 01:28:50.279 --> 01:28:54.840 of questions because they do not know the herb drug interaction stuff. No, 1220 01:28:55.159 --> 01:28:57.399 they don't know that, you know. And another thing that's kind of it's 1221 01:28:57.479 --> 01:28:59.680 just now, you know, we're doing a lot of research in this area 1222 01:28:59.720 --> 01:29:01.760 now, embarking about it for years, just because I'm a pharmacist, you 1223 01:29:01.800 --> 01:29:10.119 know, and just because you've got, you know, one thing to have 1224 01:29:10.159 --> 01:29:15.840 an advantage over other healthcare professionals, and that is dosage forms, dosage form 1225 01:29:15.920 --> 01:29:18.720 performance. And just because you've got a product that's in a capsule or a 1226 01:29:18.760 --> 01:29:24.159 soft jail capsule or a tablet, um you know, you may know all 1227 01:29:24.279 --> 01:29:27.560 there is to know about the botanical and the extract and this, and that 1228 01:29:28.199 --> 01:29:31.039 once you put it in a capsule or a soft jail capsule or a tablet 1229 01:29:31.199 --> 01:29:34.359 or some other dosage form, it may or may not work. Right. 1230 01:29:35.119 --> 01:29:39.159 I'm we're doing some research now. I'm just looking. I was going to 1231 01:29:39.239 --> 01:29:42.720 ask you what you guys over there at NCMPR doing kind of you know, 1232 01:29:42.880 --> 01:29:45.520 this is and this is not rocket science either, and companies are supposed to 1233 01:29:45.600 --> 01:29:48.640 do this before these products going to market, but we're finding out now it's 1234 01:29:48.680 --> 01:29:55.079 not the case. But a lot of it is never disintegrate. So they 1235 01:29:55.159 --> 01:29:58.479 never disintegrate. Uh, you know, those might as well just take your 1236 01:29:58.520 --> 01:30:00.680 bottle as of somethings and just go up into commode because that's where it's going 1237 01:30:00.720 --> 01:30:04.359 to go. Yeah, you know, so shock, I mean, I 1238 01:30:04.399 --> 01:30:08.119 mean some of these are pretty good companies too. So I'm not going to 1239 01:30:08.199 --> 01:30:13.760 name any names at the moment, but there's a dosage form performance is a 1240 01:30:13.880 --> 01:30:17.640 big issue in the dietary soft in the industry. And just because you know 1241 01:30:18.479 --> 01:30:23.439 now I was leaving it that so if your product won't if your product won't 1242 01:30:23.520 --> 01:30:29.479 disintegrate, yeah, morphsintegrate, and your and your and your your compounds of 1243 01:30:29.560 --> 01:30:34.039 interest can't go into solution, can't get dissolved in some shape form or fashion 1244 01:30:34.119 --> 01:30:38.319 to be absorbed, they're not going to have any effect either. Yeah, 1245 01:30:38.479 --> 01:30:41.159 And the only other way to get around that would be to figure out if 1246 01:30:41.199 --> 01:30:45.319 it's a substrate for some sort of transporter. And even if that's the case, 1247 01:30:45.760 --> 01:30:48.159 then you have to do the study to see if it is even effective. 1248 01:30:48.199 --> 01:30:53.560 And said transporters, So there's there's way more. It's way exactly and 1249 01:30:53.760 --> 01:30:56.159 again then a lot of them. The only thing that's really hurting you, 1250 01:30:56.279 --> 01:30:59.039 I think, not even from a you know, we've definitely touched on the 1251 01:30:59.520 --> 01:31:02.359 potential for HERB drug interactions and adverse effects and whatnot. At the end of 1252 01:31:02.399 --> 01:31:06.720 the day, that's going to hurt your pocketbook more than anything else. And 1253 01:31:08.039 --> 01:31:13.319 I mean, I don't drugs and life is expensive with all the way the 1254 01:31:13.399 --> 01:31:16.560 economy is now, I don't. I really don't want to go to bat 1255 01:31:16.640 --> 01:31:23.399 press a product or a supplement brand if I know that it's probably not going 1256 01:31:23.439 --> 01:31:27.039 to get absorbed. I will actively tell patients, look, like this product, 1257 01:31:27.119 --> 01:31:30.079 you know, I could sell it to you, but I don't think 1258 01:31:30.119 --> 01:31:31.880 it's going to do what you want it to do. And here's why. 1259 01:31:32.680 --> 01:31:34.720 But I'll leave that decision up to you. And then when you explain it 1260 01:31:34.800 --> 01:31:36.680 to patients, they're like, oh, well, yeah, I guess I 1261 01:31:36.720 --> 01:31:40.600 don't need that. Then what else would you recommend or is there anything any 1262 01:31:40.680 --> 01:31:44.239 other approach I need to take? But those interactions are crucial, and it 1263 01:31:44.600 --> 01:31:46.800 takes more than five minutes to kind of in that to people sometimes. Yeah, 1264 01:31:47.760 --> 01:31:56.000 And another thing that consumers have a tendency to either don't appreciate is the 1265 01:31:56.079 --> 01:32:01.000 fact that a lot of a lot of the lesser a lot of the what 1266 01:32:01.159 --> 01:32:08.760 I'm looking for, lesser known companies or less scrupulous companies. Well adult right, 1267 01:32:09.159 --> 01:32:12.520 yeah, yeah, you know, so you'll have you know, let's 1268 01:32:12.520 --> 01:32:15.680 get into a little bit because I was gonna my last few questions before we 1269 01:32:15.800 --> 01:32:17.520 kind of wrap up the show here. I want to kind of two hours 1270 01:32:17.640 --> 01:32:19.840 is kind of the max. I don't want to keep it at but yeah, 1271 01:32:20.079 --> 01:32:25.560 UM, I really wanted to get into not like duration a little bit 1272 01:32:25.560 --> 01:32:29.880 because it definitely happens more so than not. UM. Then we'll kind of 1273 01:32:29.920 --> 01:32:33.079 piggyback off that on what product companies do you look for that? Doctor Gurley 1274 01:32:33.079 --> 01:32:36.439 would be like, I can get behind that, and then are there any 1275 01:32:36.760 --> 01:32:41.600 supplements that you think the average every day consumer, if they're not taking anything, 1276 01:32:41.640 --> 01:32:45.560 would benefit from picking up in a pharmacy like mine, And then I 1277 01:32:45.640 --> 01:32:47.239 think we can we can end after we touch on those things. Let's let's 1278 01:32:47.239 --> 01:32:53.279 get into adults. Okay, so you've mentioned adults products. Um, I 1279 01:32:53.319 --> 01:32:58.640 would I guess I could speak for most people when my adulteration flag doesn't really 1280 01:32:58.760 --> 01:33:01.720 go, doesn't really kind of peak, I guess is a weird way to 1281 01:33:01.760 --> 01:33:05.439 say it. Until I'm dealing. It's mainly in the fitness industry side of 1282 01:33:05.479 --> 01:33:10.279 things where I see these products like weight loss meds can be adulterated with other 1283 01:33:10.520 --> 01:33:15.319 medications that know those exist, some of these you know, testosterone boosting products 1284 01:33:15.359 --> 01:33:18.479 are by now, so you never know what those could be adulterated with two, 1285 01:33:18.640 --> 01:33:23.239 but I'd be interested to see what you what other ones you've come across. 1286 01:33:23.720 --> 01:33:30.840 Yes, yes, so there are three major categories that are notorious for 1287 01:33:30.119 --> 01:33:35.960 having adulterated products. Okay. The first major category are all of your body 1288 01:33:36.039 --> 01:33:42.600 building, your pre workout supplements. Its classic. Oftentimes they're adulterated with either 1289 01:33:42.640 --> 01:33:47.960 hannibot if you're looking at either anabolic steroids, or they're adulterated with certain sympathema 1290 01:33:48.039 --> 01:33:54.840 metica means that are oftentimes prescription medications. The offline was in a pre Wimber 1291 01:33:54.840 --> 01:33:59.760 show in you one time too, oh yeah, or there or their analog 1292 01:34:00.279 --> 01:34:04.199 of drugs that are out there that are you know. So it's so your 1293 01:34:04.239 --> 01:34:11.039 bodybuilding supplements. I'm not saying all bodyblon supplements are adulterated, but a lot 1294 01:34:11.119 --> 01:34:13.800 of them are. Yeah, if it's claiming that you're gonna if it's you 1295 01:34:13.880 --> 01:34:16.279 know, if you're taking it to you know to help you, you know, 1296 01:34:16.920 --> 01:34:23.279 massively increase your muscle mass um, then that nine times out of ten 1297 01:34:23.359 --> 01:34:27.520 those are going to be adulterated with some type of antibolic steroid. The major 1298 01:34:27.600 --> 01:34:34.239 category of adulterated products are your sexual performance enhancing supplement. Nine times out of 1299 01:34:34.319 --> 01:34:42.319 ten those are going to be adulterated with your with your phosphlog diasterase inhibitors like 1300 01:34:42.600 --> 01:34:47.520 my aggressilis, those types of things, the Barnefield to Dalla Fields, dnafil's 1301 01:34:47.920 --> 01:34:53.800 or their analogs of those, and just shocking how many of those are are 1302 01:34:53.880 --> 01:34:57.840 are the reason they work, Yes, because they've got prescription medications or analog 1303 01:34:57.880 --> 01:35:00.079 prescription medications in them. So that's a big problem. In the other major 1304 01:35:00.159 --> 01:35:03.960 category, so the body building, the sexual performance enhancement, and the other 1305 01:35:04.000 --> 01:35:09.520 one are weight loss. A lot of weight loss something months will be adulterated 1306 01:35:09.640 --> 01:35:17.319 with prescription medications too, subutramineum things. Um. So that's those are the 1307 01:35:17.399 --> 01:35:23.399 three generategories. So anytime you're delving into those, there's always um likelihood that 1308 01:35:23.520 --> 01:35:27.960 there could be some adulteration and even some contamination for that matter. Yeah, 1309 01:35:28.680 --> 01:35:32.840 so what about what about CBD products? And you guys know, I want 1310 01:35:32.880 --> 01:35:35.439 to bring up I didn't want to bring up CBD, but I was like, 1311 01:35:35.520 --> 01:35:39.640 screw it because I know, I know that there's some adulteration issues and 1312 01:35:39.960 --> 01:35:43.800 a lot of people take CBD. Now, it's very popular, it's becoming 1313 01:35:44.039 --> 01:35:47.720 very mainstream, but not all sources of CBD are the same. And honestly, 1314 01:35:47.760 --> 01:35:50.760 you get what you pay for when it comes to CBD. So I 1315 01:35:50.880 --> 01:35:54.359 know you guys do a lot of research down there, but I know you've 1316 01:35:54.439 --> 01:35:57.279 dealt with some adulteration of that. So just kind of briefly for a couple 1317 01:35:57.319 --> 01:36:00.840 of minutes, touch of that, I guess. So stile background. So 1318 01:36:00.079 --> 01:36:05.800 where I'm at the National Center for Natural Products Research, and since nineteen sixty 1319 01:36:05.880 --> 01:36:13.039 eight, the University of Mississippi has been supplying research grade, research grade cannabis 1320 01:36:13.199 --> 01:36:15.439 just on institutes of health, you know, for over fifty years now. 1321 01:36:15.600 --> 01:36:24.439 So we have some of the we have the best marijuana researchers in the world 1322 01:36:24.640 --> 01:36:27.840 here, you know, so we can grow it, we can characterize it 1323 01:36:28.159 --> 01:36:30.119 everything. I mean, it's just christ So the whole CBD in the hemp, 1324 01:36:31.239 --> 01:36:34.640 you know, that's just that's in our wheelhouse. And so we did 1325 01:36:34.680 --> 01:36:41.159 a study a couple of years ago just looking at a wide variety of CBD 1326 01:36:41.319 --> 01:36:47.279 containing products in the state of Mississippi, and only one product out of the 1327 01:36:47.439 --> 01:36:54.119 fifty that we studied, we had what was on the label. Most of 1328 01:36:54.159 --> 01:36:59.000 them either had nothing in it at all, some had more than what was 1329 01:36:59.039 --> 01:37:04.600 on the label. Some these are supposedly not have any THC or touch of 1330 01:37:04.640 --> 01:37:09.319 how to connappen to all the active ingredient in cannabistic's just the you know, 1331 01:37:09.439 --> 01:37:14.960 it has the psychotropic effects. Some products had one product at almost a few 1332 01:37:15.039 --> 01:37:18.279 percent TAC in it, you know, so you know, yeah, yeah, 1333 01:37:18.399 --> 01:37:23.000 that's probably probably a very popular product at the time. Yeah, and 1334 01:37:23.119 --> 01:37:28.079 then and what was really concerning to us was a lot of them had with 1335 01:37:28.159 --> 01:37:34.119 synthetic connects. And synthetic cannabinoids are extremely problematic. They can cause a whole 1336 01:37:34.279 --> 01:37:40.399 litany of adverse health effects. So you really have to do your homework. 1337 01:37:40.439 --> 01:37:45.680 I want to get a CBD product, um and if you get them out 1338 01:37:45.720 --> 01:37:53.319 of gas station, and the Lord knows what yet, if nothing else, 1339 01:37:53.479 --> 01:37:59.239 if nothing else, learns anything from this podcast, never buy dietary supplements from 1340 01:37:59.359 --> 01:38:02.600 a gas all right, just you would You would think that that would be 1341 01:38:02.680 --> 01:38:06.520 common knowledge, but it's not. Yeah, well that that that's right there. 1342 01:38:06.560 --> 01:38:13.239 It will save thousands of lives. Yeah, it's funny because what people 1343 01:38:13.279 --> 01:38:16.920 don't realize too as pharmacies like CBD is almost expected to be in pharmacies now 1344 01:38:17.000 --> 01:38:23.680 as an option you could purchase and it's it per law, and most states 1345 01:38:23.720 --> 01:38:27.960 are like this. I haven't come across the state that in order that I 1346 01:38:28.000 --> 01:38:31.760 think it's actually maybe federal. I'm I'm not entirely sure, but it has 1347 01:38:31.800 --> 01:38:36.079 to have less than point three percent THHC legally for a pharmacy to sell it. 1348 01:38:36.159 --> 01:38:40.800 And if you can't, if it's if one out of fifty in Mississippi 1349 01:38:41.319 --> 01:38:46.239 that you may want to buy has what the label says, then yeah, 1350 01:38:46.399 --> 01:38:48.840 that makes them. The hair on the back of my neck stand up when 1351 01:38:48.840 --> 01:38:54.239 I'm gonna decide which product I want to carry, because at the end of 1352 01:38:54.239 --> 01:38:56.760 the day, if I don't do my homework and something bad my patients, 1353 01:38:56.800 --> 01:39:02.159 I am in trouble. So exactly. And so now, um, that 1354 01:39:02.319 --> 01:39:05.600 was two years ago. Now things have things. You can change a lot 1355 01:39:05.640 --> 01:39:11.760 in two years. And are there still crappy products out there? And absolutely 1356 01:39:12.479 --> 01:39:16.279 are there some good? Absolutely? Um and the ft we're still up in 1357 01:39:16.319 --> 01:39:21.000 the air as terms of is CBD going to be a supplement or you know, 1358 01:39:21.199 --> 01:39:28.760 so you were talking about HIMP versus you know, so so cannabis us 1359 01:39:28.800 --> 01:39:33.279 two general categories. You've got hemp versus non hemp. Hemp by the is 1360 01:39:33.800 --> 01:39:41.600 cannabis that contains less than point three percent THC by dryway. Anything that's above 1361 01:39:41.720 --> 01:39:45.720 point three percent TAC by dryway is not hemp, all right, that's non 1362 01:39:45.960 --> 01:39:49.560 marijuana. Yeah, And so it's you know, I mean you can't sell 1363 01:39:49.640 --> 01:39:55.239 that as a as you know, that's not legally. You can't say you 1364 01:39:55.359 --> 01:39:59.319 can sell illegally all about you want to, but legally you can't sell. 1365 01:40:00.279 --> 01:40:03.199 I think you can get Delta nine Texas. And I'm not entirely positive if 1366 01:40:03.239 --> 01:40:05.039 that's true or not. I think you can. Well, you know you 1367 01:40:05.119 --> 01:40:10.079 got there. There's medical marijuana. You know, some states have recreational and 1368 01:40:10.199 --> 01:40:12.720 that's all well and good, you know, nothing wrong with that. Each 1369 01:40:12.760 --> 01:40:17.119 state whatever, um. But each state has their own rules and regulations when 1370 01:40:17.119 --> 01:40:20.199 it comes to marijuana and hemp and so on and so forth. But if 1371 01:40:20.239 --> 01:40:23.960 you're into buying, you just want something that only has CBD in in it. 1372 01:40:24.800 --> 01:40:30.000 Um. There are some very reputable companies out there that put out good, 1373 01:40:30.119 --> 01:40:34.119 high quey products, but you're going to have to pay for it, 1374 01:40:34.880 --> 01:40:39.399 you know. So one of my rules of thumb is if you're not paying 1375 01:40:39.520 --> 01:40:45.920 one hundred bucks a bottle for or you know, for us for CBD product, 1376 01:40:45.920 --> 01:40:48.560 you probably not have any in it, or there's probably some other things 1377 01:40:48.680 --> 01:40:53.800 or you know, so good CBD is going to cost you. Yeah, 1378 01:40:54.199 --> 01:40:57.840 just the beast at my pharmacy, the we carry one brand out and if 1379 01:40:57.840 --> 01:41:02.319 you know who one farm CBD is. But they they're pretty reputable and they 1380 01:41:02.359 --> 01:41:05.800 go through a lot of They've spend a lot of money to make sure that 1381 01:41:05.880 --> 01:41:10.520 their product is what it is. Yeah, and because of that, I 1382 01:41:10.560 --> 01:41:15.640 would say on average, I mean I would say most I think the cheapest 1383 01:41:15.640 --> 01:41:18.000 bottle we sell is in the like eighty dollars range, and it just goes 1384 01:41:18.199 --> 01:41:21.520 up from there. And I can be pretty confident as I know the reps 1385 01:41:21.560 --> 01:41:26.960 and I've seen what all extra funding they have to do to get through the 1386 01:41:27.039 --> 01:41:30.359 hurdles. Um and you get what you pay for with CBD. I don't 1387 01:41:30.399 --> 01:41:33.359 like to say that up saving people money and trying to find the best deals 1388 01:41:33.399 --> 01:41:36.279 and stuff. But but CBD is not one of those things that I want 1389 01:41:36.319 --> 01:41:40.520 to play around with and if I want it, I'm gonna seek out them 1390 01:41:40.560 --> 01:41:43.960 more expensive. Yeah, yeah, you know, and it's it's got some 1391 01:41:44.119 --> 01:41:47.159 great it's got some great some some excellent effects. You know. So, 1392 01:41:47.640 --> 01:41:54.960 um, you know the you know, you can put a stigma on anything, 1393 01:41:55.000 --> 01:41:59.960 but everything's you know, you know, marijuana, medical grade marijuana has 1394 01:42:00.000 --> 01:42:03.199 its benefits. CBD has its benefits if you're getting CBD. Yeah, you 1395 01:42:03.279 --> 01:42:05.439 know, Sam Murray, if you're going to spend money on something, at 1396 01:42:05.479 --> 01:42:09.920 least want to know, you know, what's what's on the label is actually 1397 01:42:09.960 --> 01:42:14.079 in the product. And you'll be shocking how oftentimes that's not to carry. 1398 01:42:14.159 --> 01:42:17.600 Yeah. So so who in general? So okay, So now that we've 1399 01:42:17.680 --> 01:42:21.640 kind of touched on that in the importance of it, Um, obviously I 1400 01:42:21.800 --> 01:42:26.079 know who to look out for in which brands I think are Obviously you guys 1401 01:42:26.159 --> 01:42:29.760 do studies for these drug for these supplement companies as well to get your stamp 1402 01:42:29.840 --> 01:42:32.840 of approval. So who are some of the ones that let's say I was 1403 01:42:33.000 --> 01:42:38.319 not just shopping at my pharmacy where we carry kind of hiring pharmaceutical great stuff. 1404 01:42:39.039 --> 01:42:41.439 Um that not. Let's be honest, not everyone can afford. And 1405 01:42:41.520 --> 01:42:44.680 I'm not going to push those on a body. Um. But like let's 1406 01:42:44.680 --> 01:42:47.039 say you're going into um, I'm not going to recommend see I don't like 1407 01:42:47.119 --> 01:42:50.840 going to GNC, even though it's because when you know all the dietaries something 1408 01:42:50.920 --> 01:42:55.359 so we can mess with them a little bit. But um like, let's 1409 01:42:55.359 --> 01:42:59.520 say you're going into Costco or an HB or and you're wanting to find something, 1410 01:43:00.119 --> 01:43:03.760 are there any type of label markings you look for brands that you guys 1411 01:43:03.840 --> 01:43:10.600 know that are ready. Sure, so there are certification programs out there, 1412 01:43:10.800 --> 01:43:16.560 and not all certification programs are are equal either, So, um, the 1413 01:43:16.800 --> 01:43:19.800 in my opinion, and I'm not paid by anybody, I don't have any 1414 01:43:19.920 --> 01:43:24.800 right. We have no financial interest here at the Wellness Transcription Progress either. 1415 01:43:24.920 --> 01:43:30.159 About to mention you know my disclaimer. I don't have any any any financial 1416 01:43:30.279 --> 01:43:34.399 dealings with any of these companies I'm about to name. But in my opinion, 1417 01:43:34.960 --> 01:43:39.479 if I'm going to recommend somebody just get a general dietary softoment, whether 1418 01:43:39.560 --> 01:43:46.840 it be MUTI or whether it be Atkin a Show or you know, Saint 1419 01:43:46.920 --> 01:43:53.680 John whatever, in my opinion, the company that has the highest quality on 1420 01:43:53.800 --> 01:43:59.720 the market right now is Nature's hource YEA and Nature's Resource has they they follow 1421 01:43:59.760 --> 01:44:06.399 the USP Standard for Dietary supplement UH monographs for for the average listener, USP 1422 01:44:06.479 --> 01:44:12.640 stands for United States Pharma Compia, So the US is it's an acronym for 1423 01:44:12.720 --> 01:44:17.479 the United States Pharma Compia. The United States Pharma Compia is an organization or 1424 01:44:17.840 --> 01:44:25.000 is a UM an organization has been around since eighteen twenty and they pretty much 1425 01:44:25.000 --> 01:44:30.119 set standards for occasions prescription medications as well as a lot of dietary supplements. 1426 01:44:30.239 --> 01:44:35.479 I'm not not all dietary supplements, but they're in the process constantly doing new 1427 01:44:35.560 --> 01:44:41.199 supplements. But UM, if you have a product has the USP and it 1428 01:44:41.279 --> 01:44:45.479 will say USP UH, and there's you can go to the United States pharmac 1429 01:44:45.760 --> 01:44:48.279 United States pharmacappe or the USP website and you'll see what the sertation looks like 1430 01:44:48.399 --> 01:44:53.399 on the product. But Nature's Resource is one of the few companies there's there's 1431 01:44:53.439 --> 01:44:58.199 a few others that follow the rigorous standards set set forth by the UST. 1432 01:44:59.000 --> 01:45:04.039 So any product it has the USP certification UH, you can guarantee that what's 1433 01:45:04.079 --> 01:45:10.600 on the labels actually in the product and that product is actually product. You'll 1434 01:45:10.600 --> 01:45:13.800 be shocking. And we're talking about adulteration earlier, and I want to I 1435 01:45:13.880 --> 01:45:21.119 want to backtrack this accession. You can have adulteration with UM with with prescription 1436 01:45:21.279 --> 01:45:27.880 medications or those kinds of things. But you can economic audulation, which is 1437 01:45:28.479 --> 01:45:31.960 plants that look kind of similar, so you're a plant that but it's they're 1438 01:45:31.960 --> 01:45:35.600 a lot cheaper and they're really not the same thing. So you can have 1439 01:45:35.720 --> 01:45:41.600 economic adulteration. So you might be looking for CBD oil and in reality it's 1440 01:45:41.680 --> 01:45:46.199 just got olive oil in it at all. So that's kind of an example 1441 01:45:46.279 --> 01:45:50.960 of maybe an economic adulter and so it's not a it's not a harmful product, 1442 01:45:51.119 --> 01:45:55.920 but it's just not the product that you that has claimed on the label. 1443 01:45:56.079 --> 01:45:58.600 Yeah. So is nature's resource? Is that? This? Is that 1444 01:45:58.760 --> 01:46:01.000 nature made? Are those the same guys? Is that what I'm I'm thinking? 1445 01:46:01.119 --> 01:46:04.640 Yeah, he said nature's resource and nature man know the bottle at Kroger 1446 01:46:04.720 --> 01:46:09.399 that's yellow and green? Um, yeah, yeah, those guys nature's resource 1447 01:46:09.520 --> 01:46:15.000 and and then I know Nature's out there. Yeah, there's their Nature's bounty 1448 01:46:15.159 --> 01:46:17.279 natures. Yeah, there's a ton of them and they're bounty nature made. 1449 01:46:17.680 --> 01:46:21.439 Yeah, it may be nature it is nature made. I'm pretty I'm like 1450 01:46:21.520 --> 01:46:26.399 pretty positive nature made. Man Costco if you go to if you're a Costco 1451 01:46:26.479 --> 01:46:30.319 member, Kirkland secures line of stuff is a lot of those are uspature. 1452 01:46:30.520 --> 01:46:35.439 They're all usp absolutely so Kirkland signature, nature made. Um, those are 1453 01:46:35.479 --> 01:46:41.359 the ones that follow usp UH guidelines for sulkoma. Quote. Yeah that's about 1454 01:46:41.359 --> 01:46:43.960 as good as said. Yeah, we carry a lot of the big ones 1455 01:46:44.000 --> 01:46:46.239 that weary um at the store. And again we carry kind of more tailored 1456 01:46:46.279 --> 01:46:50.159 stuff. So capsulations is a big one. Um, They're a good one 1457 01:46:50.199 --> 01:46:54.600 there, did they especially because in my neck of the woods down here in 1458 01:46:54.600 --> 01:46:57.720 Austin you have a lot of people allergies and things that people that are gluten 1459 01:46:57.840 --> 01:47:00.560 free for whatever reason, they want to seek out those without our gens and 1460 01:47:00.560 --> 01:47:05.199 stuff, which is totally fine. Um on Ortho molecular is another one that 1461 01:47:05.279 --> 01:47:11.000 we carry. They're pretty good. Zimogen is another, and then I mean 1462 01:47:11.119 --> 01:47:15.439 really as far as higher end ones, those are the ones that we carry 1463 01:47:15.600 --> 01:47:18.520 because that's just what our clientele base likes and demands. So but if you're 1464 01:47:18.520 --> 01:47:20.840 going to try to save the best bank for your buck and kind of cover 1465 01:47:20.960 --> 01:47:25.399 yourself on a budget, I mean, nature's made is what I recommend to 1466 01:47:25.680 --> 01:47:28.319 to my as. Yeah, you can't beat nature's made. I mean nature's 1467 01:47:28.359 --> 01:47:30.600 made, nature's resource, nature's baluing a lot of the ones that have nature. 1468 01:47:30.640 --> 01:47:33.359 There's a couple of nature one that's not good, but but those three 1469 01:47:33.439 --> 01:47:36.880 are pretty good. A nature made. They're they're the you know, they're 1470 01:47:36.920 --> 01:47:41.920 one of the USPA. They follow USP guidelines and they have the certification with 1471 01:47:42.079 --> 01:47:45.439 regards to UM. That's just something's enjoy And I don't want people to think 1472 01:47:45.439 --> 01:47:48.279 that all that supple months are one not good and an auto becomes vast majority 1473 01:47:48.359 --> 01:47:54.520 votolepments out there are safe. The vast majority of soult months out there have 1474 01:47:54.680 --> 01:48:01.399 some efficacy UM and so and they serve and and they're uh, they have 1475 01:48:01.479 --> 01:48:11.239 a lot of benefit, um medical benefit whatever. But UM with a gostia 1476 01:48:11.279 --> 01:48:16.000 other certifications with regards to UM. Yeah, any sports something with that has 1477 01:48:16.039 --> 01:48:21.479 an NSF, and NSF today just stands for NSF. Yeah, way back 1478 01:48:21.520 --> 01:48:27.439 in the day it stood for National Sanitary Foundation, which sounds a little yeah, 1479 01:48:27.800 --> 01:48:31.199 yeah, just n S But NSF they they go through and and if 1480 01:48:31.239 --> 01:48:36.760 you pass their certification criteria, your product has what's uh, you know, 1481 01:48:36.840 --> 01:48:43.119 it's one it's not adulterated with anything that's gonna get you h on a it's 1482 01:48:43.159 --> 01:48:47.760 not a well get you deemed on a banned substance list and so occasions those 1483 01:48:47.840 --> 01:48:51.119 products are you can you can go to the bank with those. Yeah, 1484 01:48:51.159 --> 01:48:54.439 I think they're great. When I was when I was doing my MA, 1485 01:48:54.720 --> 01:48:58.439 my non my master's thesis, when I was doing stuff with the baseball team 1486 01:48:58.439 --> 01:49:00.319 that I played on, because a lot of them were I mean, you 1487 01:49:00.399 --> 01:49:03.479 have to be really careful with the NCAA of what supplements you're taking it because 1488 01:49:03.520 --> 01:49:06.680 a lot of these kids are in the gym, they're on pre workout stuff 1489 01:49:06.720 --> 01:49:13.479 like that, and you never know what you have and granted as soon as 1490 01:49:13.520 --> 01:49:15.159 you may not. You may be able to get away with your run of 1491 01:49:15.199 --> 01:49:18.319 the mill drug tests, but some of these big D one institutions you can. 1492 01:49:18.359 --> 01:49:23.000 I mean, I can wreck your career or ruin your eligibility if you're 1493 01:49:23.039 --> 01:49:28.840 not careful supplements you're taking. So that's a good point for sure, because 1494 01:49:29.079 --> 01:49:32.279 absolutely not a lot of people think about that either. Or even if your 1495 01:49:32.319 --> 01:49:38.199 work, if your work um drug screens you as a part of the hawking 1496 01:49:38.239 --> 01:49:41.119 a supplement you don't know much about it, you could get dinged for end 1497 01:49:41.119 --> 01:49:45.479 adulteration thing you may have no idea. Yeah, you'd be shocked at how 1498 01:49:45.520 --> 01:49:50.680 many Yet, how many college athletes or professional athletes you know, have failed 1499 01:49:50.720 --> 01:49:55.560 a drug screen and it was a dietary soltment and as supplement would have been 1500 01:49:55.560 --> 01:49:58.039 adulterated, you know. And that's why you why I didn't pass. So 1501 01:49:59.199 --> 01:50:00.840 and you've got to do your homework. Um, and it's not hard to 1502 01:50:00.920 --> 01:50:04.079 do, right, Um, you just got to make an effort. So 1503 01:50:04.279 --> 01:50:10.479 yeah, I really like consumer ever sent you on a consumer labs website is 1504 01:50:10.520 --> 01:50:15.840 a great little website to go and get good information about products in general dietary 1505 01:50:15.920 --> 01:50:20.279 Solfing, the founder of consumer lab dot com good friend of mine. I 1506 01:50:20.399 --> 01:50:25.640 got no financial times with them whatsoever. But if you're if you're if you're 1507 01:50:25.640 --> 01:50:29.399 a consumer and there's a particular and this is something you've heard about or on 1508 01:50:29.479 --> 01:50:31.399 myself a month that you're thinking about getting into, go to consumer lab dot 1509 01:50:31.439 --> 01:50:38.600 com. Um, some of the information is readily available. Sometimes you may 1510 01:50:38.640 --> 01:50:41.720 have you may have to buy. Yeah, we'll pay twenty bucks a year. 1511 01:50:41.760 --> 01:50:45.840 I mean it's nothing. Okay, if you're a suffing my user, 1512 01:50:46.119 --> 01:50:50.039 you probably would be the best thirty bucks you ever spanned. Its Because what 1513 01:50:50.119 --> 01:50:56.039 consumer lab does is they analyze products too that only analyze them for content. 1514 01:50:56.439 --> 01:51:00.880 But they also analyze them for adulteration and contamination, and they and they list 1515 01:51:00.920 --> 01:51:02.760 the names of the products that pass and fail. So yeah, it's a 1516 01:51:02.840 --> 01:51:05.760 great place to go. There's a bunch of you know, we should we 1517 01:51:05.840 --> 01:51:11.359 could have a podcast just on information sources. Sure, yeah, it's there's 1518 01:51:11.399 --> 01:51:15.279 a lot there that people may not think about. For sure, I do. 1519 01:51:15.479 --> 01:51:17.520 I look stuff up all the time, especially why at work when I 1520 01:51:17.560 --> 01:51:21.079 don't know a more obscure product. If if someone's coming to me, But 1521 01:51:21.399 --> 01:51:25.039 this is the last thing I'll wrap up with because I want to kind of 1522 01:51:25.079 --> 01:51:29.880 get your opinion and I'll kind of tell mine. So if some friend of 1523 01:51:29.920 --> 01:51:34.640 yours or someone you're work closely with, or a friend family member, if 1524 01:51:34.680 --> 01:51:39.520 they come up to you and go, hey, I want to you know, 1525 01:51:39.600 --> 01:51:42.680 all the wellness transtation probas My whole thing is giving you the information that 1526 01:51:42.760 --> 01:51:45.239 you can use light to improve your lifestyle and wellness long term. So that's 1527 01:51:45.279 --> 01:51:49.479 going to be different for everyone. But every time someone's going to ask you 1528 01:51:49.520 --> 01:51:54.159 what supplements would you recommend? So from a general perspective, if you had 1529 01:51:54.239 --> 01:51:58.640 to pick a few, which ones would you? You know, that's based 1530 01:51:58.680 --> 01:52:01.319 off of your expertise in the clinical literature and what you've seen in here. 1531 01:52:01.760 --> 01:52:06.479 What are the supplements that you would recommend just about everybody take, regardless of 1532 01:52:06.880 --> 01:52:13.920 how their diet is. You mean specific guess brands or specific not brands, 1533 01:52:13.960 --> 01:52:16.000 but less like supplements in general. And I can kind of go into my 1534 01:52:16.159 --> 01:52:18.760 stack and what I like to because I try to take a less is more 1535 01:52:18.800 --> 01:52:21.880 approach with supplements. Um, because you can get into the weeds and just 1536 01:52:21.960 --> 01:52:26.000 start stacking stuff on, but it gets really expensive. Yeah. Um, 1537 01:52:26.279 --> 01:52:29.199 well, you know I can tell you what I take. I mean, 1538 01:52:29.239 --> 01:52:30.840 you don't have I mean, I mean, I'm not going to mention brands. 1539 01:52:30.880 --> 01:52:36.079 I just mention what I as with anything. You can cover a lot 1540 01:52:36.159 --> 01:52:41.000 of stuff with a good well balanced I just that's just from a nutrition perspective, 1541 01:52:41.319 --> 01:52:45.520 is hard to beat that sure. And then from a supplement perspective, 1542 01:52:46.199 --> 01:52:50.960 A good multi vitamin, you know, like you mentioned pure encapsulations are they're 1543 01:52:50.960 --> 01:52:54.840 one day I think it's called one day multi or yeah, one multi. 1544 01:52:56.000 --> 01:53:00.960 Yeah that's an excellent that's an excellent multi vitamin. I take that. Um, 1545 01:53:01.319 --> 01:53:06.800 I take some. I take phi a somal kirkumen Okay, A reason 1546 01:53:06.880 --> 01:53:11.560 that I you know, as a guy my age you know. That's a 1547 01:53:11.600 --> 01:53:17.119 good thing. Um. There's another soppoment that's about to come on the market 1548 01:53:18.039 --> 01:53:26.279 that has of some really interesting combination that can I have some financials, I 1549 01:53:26.359 --> 01:53:34.960 have some really positive benefits on your lipid biochemistry. And when it fish, 1550 01:53:35.039 --> 01:53:40.199 I'm one of the tactics, so to speak. Once it does come on 1551 01:53:40.279 --> 01:53:42.680 the market, we can talk about that in more detail. I know exactly 1552 01:53:42.720 --> 01:53:45.880 what you're talking about and who but what I'm talking about. So Um, 1553 01:53:46.560 --> 01:53:50.439 I take that. I can tell that it has some benefits. At least 1554 01:53:50.479 --> 01:53:58.079 I think that's the case. Um. Um. What else I'll tidman e 1555 01:53:58.199 --> 01:54:03.359 on occasion. Um. Again, Nature's made. Um. There's not a 1556 01:54:03.439 --> 01:54:06.880 lot of supplements I take. Sometimes I'll take it from for a while then 1557 01:54:06.920 --> 01:54:13.520 I'll stop, you know, in the same way. But I don't you 1558 01:54:13.560 --> 01:54:17.520 know, if someone is into a particular supplement, and I'm cool with that. 1559 01:54:17.600 --> 01:54:23.000 Again, supplements have a lot of a lot of benefits. Are they 1560 01:54:24.159 --> 01:54:30.079 Are they a good balanced diet? No? Right, I mean they supplement 1561 01:54:30.239 --> 01:54:34.079 exactly. That's why they're called supplements. That's why they're called supplements. Yes, 1562 01:54:34.199 --> 01:54:39.319 exactly, Yeah, I am essentials, right, they're called supple Yeah. 1563 01:54:39.359 --> 01:54:43.520 I take personally, Like I take a good multi vitamin um and to 1564 01:54:43.600 --> 01:54:47.359 be complex based off some prescription medications I take that can deplete certain things, 1565 01:54:47.479 --> 01:54:51.359 a magnesium supplement. That's a whole other topic for a podcast. I think 1566 01:54:51.439 --> 01:54:56.640 no one talks about our drug induced nutrient depletion is huge. Yeah. Um, 1567 01:54:57.000 --> 01:54:59.800 And you're one of the and you're one of the leading experts on all 1568 01:54:59.840 --> 01:55:02.079 that, So I would defer. I would defer to your expertise on that, 1569 01:55:02.279 --> 01:55:10.119 because yeah, it does. Can drugs deplete your nutrient? Can drugs 1570 01:55:10.199 --> 01:55:15.359 deplete nutrients? Oh? Absolutely, they yep. And and that's something just 1571 01:55:15.159 --> 01:55:17.520 I mean, it just flies right over their head. You ask, you 1572 01:55:17.600 --> 01:55:21.520 ask most healthcare professionals about drug nutrient depletion. I'm gonna look at you with 1573 01:55:21.600 --> 01:55:25.800 this, you know during the Headlight's gonna look what are you talking about? 1574 01:55:25.960 --> 01:55:29.680 Yeah, so, yeah, it's a very important aspect. And it's oh 1575 01:55:30.079 --> 01:55:32.119 if nothing else, if you're taking any prescription medication, you should at least 1576 01:55:32.159 --> 01:55:35.640 take a multi vitamin uh from from a good source. Yeah. I do 1577 01:55:35.880 --> 01:55:40.479 multi vitamin occasionally, I'll do vitamin D. I mean that's big now. 1578 01:55:40.600 --> 01:55:43.119 But like I said, I'm in the pharmacy all day. I don't get 1579 01:55:43.119 --> 01:55:45.079 outside as much as I like too, So I'm in with that. Um, 1580 01:55:45.600 --> 01:55:48.960 what else do I do? Creatine is a good too. I do 1581 01:55:49.119 --> 01:55:55.159 take creatine a good bitch. And when I'm exercising, um, caffeine I 1582 01:55:55.199 --> 01:55:58.840 can't tolerate too. Else to be really careful you discussed. And then the 1583 01:55:59.000 --> 01:56:02.479 last thing that I take on a routine basis, Um, I do do, 1584 01:56:02.880 --> 01:56:06.720 believe it or not, I take a fiber supplement. So I really 1585 01:56:06.920 --> 01:56:11.199 like Yeah, I like a metamuesel like that tastes good, but like it's 1586 01:56:11.199 --> 01:56:14.439 a good way to hit that you know goal of fiber that not a lot 1587 01:56:14.479 --> 01:56:16.760 of people hit. And we'll go into that another podcast. But um, 1588 01:56:17.279 --> 01:56:19.840 you can never get enough fiber. That is true. You make the gup 1589 01:56:19.920 --> 01:56:26.199 microbit with especially if you're taking vitam now, especially for taking vitamin D. 1590 01:56:27.479 --> 01:56:30.479 Vitamin D can lock you up pretty quick, you know, So always if 1591 01:56:30.479 --> 01:56:33.840 you're taking a vitamin D supplement, you need to be taking you know, 1592 01:56:34.079 --> 01:56:39.279 you need to eat some brand on a regular basis, just a good old 1593 01:56:39.279 --> 01:56:43.439 oatmeal. Vitamin D just constant place the hell out of me. Yeah, 1594 01:56:43.640 --> 01:56:46.720 you know it's um, it's important you mentioned that it's a counseling point that 1595 01:56:46.800 --> 01:56:49.600 I have for patients too, especially with COVID. You know, when COVID 1596 01:56:49.720 --> 01:56:55.720 was a big thing, Vitamin D shot up um, which is fine. 1597 01:56:56.079 --> 01:56:59.279 Uh, and it's again very rarely do you ever see by any type of 1598 01:56:59.520 --> 01:57:01.479 city is us with vitamins, even though the fat soluble ones are the ones 1599 01:57:01.520 --> 01:57:03.600 that you have to kind of be a little wary of, especially if you're 1600 01:57:03.680 --> 01:57:09.720 going fifty thousand units on all the time. Yeah, but you know, 1601 01:57:09.840 --> 01:57:14.520 vitamin D deficiencies super comics, so suppmenting it a bad idea. But yes, 1602 01:57:14.720 --> 01:57:18.520 being making sure you're getting that fiber is prop Apart from exercising and trying 1603 01:57:18.600 --> 01:57:23.399 to you know, watch your caloric intake. Fiber intake is a huge lever 1604 01:57:23.479 --> 01:57:26.239 to pull, and I think that's a one that not a lot of people 1605 01:57:26.319 --> 01:57:30.439 think about. But we've covered a ton of stuff. We've we're running. 1606 01:57:30.479 --> 01:57:32.239 We're running on two hours now, I think of and we could. I 1607 01:57:32.279 --> 01:57:36.239 could sit down and talk with you all day long. I'm by I've never 1608 01:57:36.319 --> 01:57:43.000 really got a chance to tell you in pharmacy school that like it. It 1609 01:57:43.239 --> 01:57:45.239 was really cool, even though we have the same mannerisms and that was kind 1610 01:57:45.279 --> 01:57:51.239 of weird. I really appreciate the expertise that you bring to the table, 1611 01:57:51.359 --> 01:57:57.239 because I couldn't tell you if I wanted to find another dietary suffman expert, 1612 01:57:57.239 --> 01:58:01.520 I'd be looking for a long time. And my expertise comes from the fact 1613 01:58:01.560 --> 01:58:05.239 that down here from almost day one, you know, I was a veteran 1614 01:58:05.279 --> 01:58:09.600 of the federal wars. A lot of the people that a lot of the 1615 01:58:09.640 --> 01:58:13.239 people that I was a pariah in the industry for a long time. And 1616 01:58:13.439 --> 01:58:16.920 then they realized that after the whole dietary art, drug interaction stuff, and 1617 01:58:17.000 --> 01:58:21.520 the fact that you know, I've not everything, I've actually a lot of 1618 01:58:21.560 --> 01:58:27.319 guys that wanted to crucify me, you know, twenty years ago are my 1619 01:58:27.439 --> 01:58:30.159 best friends now. Because I don't have an agenda, right, I think 1620 01:58:30.199 --> 01:58:33.279 that's important. I'm just a science guy, you know, and we find 1621 01:58:33.359 --> 01:58:35.840 stuff and we publish it. If it's good, we'll publish it. If 1622 01:58:35.840 --> 01:58:39.560 it's bad, we'll publish it. I don't I'm not I don't have an 1623 01:58:39.600 --> 01:58:44.000 agenda, right, and so it is what it is, and so um, 1624 01:58:44.720 --> 01:58:46.880 you know, I'm I'm one of the biggest advocates for day supplements, 1625 01:58:47.199 --> 01:58:51.199 and I can also be one of its biggest critics. It just depends on 1626 01:58:51.439 --> 01:58:56.159 depends on what we're talking about. For sure. I think that's super important 1627 01:58:56.760 --> 01:59:00.359 because there's so many people out there that just assume there's bias rampant everything. 1628 01:59:00.800 --> 01:59:02.760 And that's another topic with research too, as people say, well who funded 1629 01:59:02.800 --> 01:59:05.119 the study, dude, the supplement industry funding. Yeah, you know, 1630 01:59:05.199 --> 01:59:10.600 and it's like you have to report any any potential bias just to get a 1631 01:59:10.640 --> 01:59:15.319 paper approved or a study approved to do it. Yea, So those sources 1632 01:59:15.359 --> 01:59:18.399 are readily available if you look for him, and there's nothing wrong with um, 1633 01:59:19.159 --> 01:59:25.039 Coca Cola or let's I guess, let's say like a corn lobbying industry 1634 01:59:25.119 --> 01:59:28.079 to fund to study on core because they want to see if there's benefits and 1635 01:59:28.119 --> 01:59:30.319 stuff. So it's not all malicious like people think, even though there are. 1636 01:59:30.560 --> 01:59:34.319 Don't get me wrong, there's definitely some people that do that and it 1637 01:59:34.439 --> 01:59:39.439 needs to be called out when it occurs. But again, just saying oh, 1638 01:59:39.640 --> 01:59:43.199 well that was funded by the dairy industry, so we can just completely 1639 01:59:43.199 --> 01:59:45.680 dismiss it, it's like, no, we can't. Like again, it's 1640 01:59:45.800 --> 01:59:49.600 very hard. It's not many institutions funding these types of studies, so it's 1641 01:59:49.720 --> 01:59:54.439 fun. It is it's very hard to come by. I mean there and 1642 01:59:54.479 --> 01:59:57.159 we can get into funding sources a little bit later. I mean there are 1643 01:59:57.359 --> 02:00:00.199 um, you can get the national institutes. How has a National Center for 1644 02:00:00.239 --> 02:00:06.079 Complementary Integrative Health. They they they have dietary research. The industry funds a 1645 02:00:06.119 --> 02:00:11.319 lot of our research, and you know, some of it's quite good. 1646 02:00:11.720 --> 02:00:15.479 Um. And it's I got you. I always had some source. Um. 1647 02:00:15.920 --> 02:00:18.399 And then you know a lot of times or a company will will fond 1648 02:00:18.479 --> 02:00:23.800 to study. Times it may seem over the top, and sometimes it may 1649 02:00:24.159 --> 02:00:28.680 actually be to their detriment. A lot of times they may not get published 1650 02:00:28.720 --> 02:00:30.000 because the company's like, we don't want to get out there. Yeah. 1651 02:00:30.279 --> 02:00:34.840 Yeah, that's part of it science though. Yeah. I have published stuff 1652 02:00:35.199 --> 02:00:39.920 with with companies that were not too well and we publish it anyway. You 1653 02:00:40.000 --> 02:00:42.479 know, it's like, hey, this is you know here it is. 1654 02:00:43.399 --> 02:00:47.920 Um. Well, what that does is it tells the company something they need 1655 02:00:48.000 --> 02:00:53.960 to know, correct correct? Yeah, I mean you don't know what you 1656 02:00:54.039 --> 02:00:57.920 don't know, right, so right, you know it's it's important. Um. 1657 02:00:59.520 --> 02:01:01.520 But yeah, I think it's what I said. Well, I'll have 1658 02:01:01.600 --> 02:01:05.279 you on many times because we can cover in different things and I've enjoyed it. 1659 02:01:05.399 --> 02:01:09.560 We can week other friends on and stuff too that our colleagues ers. 1660 02:01:09.560 --> 02:01:12.640 Because I'd love to UM, I don't want to name drop him. I 1661 02:01:12.720 --> 02:01:15.640 guess I can UM. I'd love to have doctor as El Sholey. Is 1662 02:01:15.680 --> 02:01:20.199 he still there to have him? Mister marijuana. Absolutely. Yeah. You 1663 02:01:20.279 --> 02:01:23.479 know, there's a big push for marijuana nowadays, and you know, in 1664 02:01:23.600 --> 02:01:27.680 certain individuals, at certain ages like we there's definitely concerns that we need to 1665 02:01:27.720 --> 02:01:31.840 be aware of. UM, but there's also benefits too, and you know 1666 02:01:32.039 --> 02:01:36.439 it takes people like us just kind of well there are I mean, I 1667 02:01:36.680 --> 02:01:44.079 know most of the movers and shakers and the dietary softman industry world, and 1668 02:01:44.399 --> 02:01:48.319 if there's a particular topic, I mean I could name off probably twenty people 1669 02:01:48.479 --> 02:01:53.920 now that would just love to be on your podcast and would give out some 1670 02:01:54.159 --> 02:02:00.039 phenomenal information on just about anything. I mean from Yeah. So anytime this 1671 02:02:00.479 --> 02:02:03.560 topic that's you're interested in, let me know. I'll find you somebody that'll 1672 02:02:03.560 --> 02:02:05.960 be happy to talk to you. Yeah. I'm excited to see where this 1673 02:02:06.079 --> 02:02:09.520 goes. Like I said, I wanted an outlet for the education that we 1674 02:02:09.880 --> 02:02:13.319 have because if you don't use it, you lose it. So I I'm 1675 02:02:13.359 --> 02:02:15.199 excited to see where this goes. I just got to figure out all the 1676 02:02:15.319 --> 02:02:17.479 editing and sound and stuff that comes with the territory. But Dad, I 1677 02:02:17.560 --> 02:02:20.199 appreciate you. I appreciate you being on. Don't want to take up too 1678 02:02:20.279 --> 02:02:23.720 much more of your time because we you know, like I said, I've 1679 02:02:23.800 --> 02:02:29.520 enjoyed it. It's been fun. If if people had this last thing, 1680 02:02:29.560 --> 02:02:32.279 I'll say, if people wanted to find out more about, um, what 1681 02:02:32.439 --> 02:02:36.479 the nc NPR does, is there a website they can go and and yeah, 1682 02:02:36.520 --> 02:02:42.479 I go to the University of Mississippi's just their University Missisippi website. Uh, 1683 02:02:42.760 --> 02:02:47.119 and then home to search if you'll just search NPR National Center for Natural 1684 02:02:47.159 --> 02:02:51.359 Products, which we got a whole you know, web page there. Well, 1685 02:02:51.359 --> 02:02:54.680 but that's the easiest way. It's just to go through the University of 1686 02:02:54.680 --> 02:03:00.279 Mississippi webs web page and then just I think it's under research. Yep. 1687 02:03:00.800 --> 02:03:03.319 Um, they've got a research thing. But if you just either n c 1688 02:03:04.000 --> 02:03:10.039 ER or National Center Patrol Products research, all the cool things that's going on 1689 02:03:10.159 --> 02:03:13.000 here, I mean it's problem. I mean, yeah, it's a it's 1690 02:03:13.000 --> 02:03:15.199 a cool place to work. I mean, like I said, I had 1691 02:03:15.319 --> 02:03:18.439 the reason. I had been doing clinical research with with them or for them. 1692 02:03:19.479 --> 02:03:23.319 I was doing most of their clinical studies for many years when I was 1693 02:03:23.359 --> 02:03:28.039 at uamss UH and then but now that I'm here, you know, I 1694 02:03:28.279 --> 02:03:30.399 instead of having to you know, I can just walk down the halt to 1695 02:03:30.439 --> 02:03:34.600 the you know, one of the leading experts on whatever a certain certain aspect 1696 02:03:34.680 --> 02:03:40.039 of either analys and these guys can do. It's amazing what they can do. 1697 02:03:40.159 --> 02:03:42.960 It's amazing the resources they have here. It's one of the best kept 1698 02:03:43.039 --> 02:03:45.359 secrets, not only in the nation, but certainly in the state of Mississippi. 1699 02:03:46.239 --> 02:03:50.199 Then the nc NPR is no more outside of the university that is on 1700 02:03:50.319 --> 02:03:57.760 the university campus. So um, that's that's just a that's a public relations 1701 02:03:57.840 --> 02:04:00.159 issue that they need to get fixed. But but yeah, I mean, 1702 02:04:00.399 --> 02:04:03.960 yeah, you can get doctor Hill solely. I mean, it's just I 1703 02:04:04.039 --> 02:04:08.960 could get your access to for this podcast. Nobody else would would podcast would 1704 02:04:08.960 --> 02:04:12.800 be able to get in regards these types of topics. So yeah, let 1705 02:04:12.840 --> 02:04:14.960 me know, I will, We'll make it happen. Well, I appreciate 1706 02:04:15.000 --> 02:04:16.840 We'll have you back on multiple times that I really appreciate it. And guys, 1707 02:04:16.920 --> 02:04:19.000 this is this kind of wraps it up for us at the at the 1708 02:04:19.039 --> 02:04:24.239 Wellness Transcription Podcast. We hope you learned something. Um, you know, 1709 02:04:24.319 --> 02:04:27.680 there's if you look for him, there's people amounts of knowledge that are more 1710 02:04:27.720 --> 02:04:30.239 than happy to provide that for you. So we're going to keep these episodes 1711 02:04:30.359 --> 02:04:34.039 rolling and hopefully we'll we'll have more cool to guests on and doctor Gurly, 1712 02:04:34.079 --> 02:04:38.359 I'll have you back on. I hate saying that, Doctor Gurly, call 1713 02:04:38.479 --> 02:04:41.039 me Dad, call me Dad, I'll have you. I'll have you back 1714 02:04:41.079 --> 02:04:45.359 on soon. Um. Like I said, I'm biased, so I appreciate 1715 02:04:45.439 --> 02:04:47.119 it. And we'll end episode here, guys, I enjoyed. Thanks. 1716 02:04:49.359 --> 02:04:54.319 Thank you guys for listening to today's episode of The Wellness Transcription Podcast. If 1717 02:04:54.359 --> 02:04:56.960 you wanted to continue to support the show, please do us a huge favor 1718 02:04:57.079 --> 02:05:00.239 and like, follow, and leave us a five star review on any of 1719 02:05:00.279 --> 02:05:03.479 your favorite podcasting platforms. Your support and feedback mean the world to us, 1720 02:05:03.520 --> 02:05:06.319 and it also helps us to continue to bring you, guys, high quality 1721 02:05:06.439 --> 02:05:11.840 content moving forward. You can follow us on Instagram at the Weldness Transcription Podcast. 1722 02:05:11.920 --> 02:05:14.800 That way you can stay up to date on all of our upcoming content 1723 02:05:14.880 --> 02:05:17.760 and special guest interviews as always be well and God bless