WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.200 --> 00:00:07.160 You get long bitcoin amazing, You're not worried about the US dollar basically destroying 2 00:00:07.200 --> 00:00:13.119 itself, and you have a better value and opportunity for shareholders to see that 3 00:00:13.199 --> 00:00:18.800 you're committed to maintaining your treasury and not allowing it to basically be destroyed by 4 00:00:18.800 --> 00:00:23.760 inflation. So you know, micro Strategy has been doing this for I don't 5 00:00:23.800 --> 00:00:26.559 know how many years, and people are paying them a premium for it. 6 00:00:27.039 --> 00:00:30.480 Why on earth wouldn't other companies do that as well. It's just it's a 7 00:00:30.519 --> 00:00:41.799 completely sensible way of managing your treasure. 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Welcome to the Thinking Crypto Podcast. I'm your 17 00:01:25.879 --> 00:01:29.159 host Tony Edward, and with me today is Russell Starr, who is the 18 00:01:29.200 --> 00:01:34.079 head of Capital Markets and the former CEO at DeFi Technologies. Russell, great 19 00:01:34.079 --> 00:01:37.079 to have you, Ony, I'm really excited to be on and thanks a 20 00:01:37.079 --> 00:01:40.400 lot for the invite. I'm really looking forward to this. So Russell, 21 00:01:40.439 --> 00:01:45.840 we got big news around DeFi Technologies this week with the company adopting bitcoin as 22 00:01:45.840 --> 00:01:49.920 a treasury strategy, and I have a lot of questions around that, and 23 00:01:49.239 --> 00:01:53.959 I'm sure many folks want to hear the details there. But before we get 24 00:01:53.000 --> 00:01:56.599 there, tell us about yourself, where you're from, where'd you grow up, 25 00:01:56.640 --> 00:02:02.239 and your professional background book Borner, raised and so true Canadian, ended 26 00:02:02.319 --> 00:02:07.959 up in Toronto. Just my academic background. I have a master's and econometrics. 27 00:02:07.000 --> 00:02:10.639 I started, I finished an MBA, started a PhD in econometrics, 28 00:02:12.120 --> 00:02:15.199 always wanted to get into finance. So I'm kind of like the trad fi 29 00:02:15.360 --> 00:02:20.560 guy on this team, really really strong crypto team. And then sort of 30 00:02:20.560 --> 00:02:24.719 me on the trad fire side, and I really just got tired of being 31 00:02:24.759 --> 00:02:30.960 an institutional salesperson, institutional trader. I'd helped start a firm that's now pretty 32 00:02:30.960 --> 00:02:37.759 big called Echelon, and I was looking more to help really interesting companies grow. 33 00:02:38.639 --> 00:02:42.360 And I often jokingly say that I kind of bought my way into this 34 00:02:42.439 --> 00:02:47.120 company. So the CEO, the current CEO, his name is Olivier Lucy 35 00:02:47.240 --> 00:02:53.319 Newton. He created Hive blockchain, and the other founder created a company called 36 00:02:53.479 --> 00:02:59.240 xbt Provider, which is actually the first ever Bitcoin et P in the world, 37 00:02:59.560 --> 00:03:02.960 and it's now known as coin Shares. And you know, I was 38 00:03:04.039 --> 00:03:07.520 kind of a gold guy. I was looking at how fiat currencies are just 39 00:03:07.639 --> 00:03:14.080 being destroyed by governments, and so gold up until the advent of bitcoin was 40 00:03:14.159 --> 00:03:16.759 kind of the only way to look at that. And then when I found 41 00:03:17.439 --> 00:03:27.360 BEFI with the team the concept of literally wrapping these crypto protocols in traditional equity 42 00:03:27.439 --> 00:03:30.639 rappers, so that you know, mom and pop, grandma, aunt and 43 00:03:30.719 --> 00:03:37.599 uncle, all these people who are really honestly terrified of trying to buy these 44 00:03:37.879 --> 00:03:44.360 tokens on these unregulated exchanges. This company basically eliminates that and gives you the 45 00:03:44.400 --> 00:03:47.840 ability to buy. Well, now we have twenty three ETPs listed in Europe. 46 00:03:47.960 --> 00:03:57.560 So just love the concept of building companies and love this new ecosystem whose 47 00:03:57.879 --> 00:04:02.240 entire goal And again I never want to put words in the founders of Ethereum, 48 00:04:02.240 --> 00:04:08.479 Bitcoin, Salan or whatever, but really the goal is to destabilize traditional 49 00:04:08.479 --> 00:04:13.879 capital markets. I love that it's incredible, and to protect investors from destruction 50 00:04:13.960 --> 00:04:17.199 of FIA for sure. So you know, you mentioned you're a trad FI 51 00:04:17.279 --> 00:04:23.319 guy and where along the journey did you discover bitcoin and what was your aha 52 00:04:23.480 --> 00:04:29.959 moment? So it Honestly, I had a lot of buddies who were like, 53 00:04:30.360 --> 00:04:32.279 you know, I bought some bitcoin at one hundred bucks or three thousand 54 00:04:32.399 --> 00:04:36.079 or whatever, and I made fifty grand or a million bucks, And I 55 00:04:36.120 --> 00:04:40.759 never really took it seriously, Honestly, I was. I was working with 56 00:04:40.839 --> 00:04:44.120 and helping a gold company at the time, you know, and everybody would 57 00:04:44.160 --> 00:04:46.120 joke, you know, how do you buy your partner or your wife or 58 00:04:46.120 --> 00:04:50.959 your girlfriend or whomever a bitcoin necklace? Like, there's there's nothing tangible about 59 00:04:51.000 --> 00:04:56.600 it. But as I watched more and more capital flows go into it, 60 00:04:57.920 --> 00:05:00.879 I was like, look, I'm a little bit terrified of these unregulated exchanges, 61 00:05:01.000 --> 00:05:03.759 and and let's be honest, that's where a lot of the frauds have 62 00:05:03.800 --> 00:05:10.360 occurred. It hasn't been the bitcoin squad or ethereum squad. It's more that 63 00:05:10.439 --> 00:05:15.040 they are bad actors. There's always going to be bad actors when there's as 64 00:05:15.120 --> 00:05:18.199 much money at play as this. But this company had, like I said, 65 00:05:18.279 --> 00:05:23.560 that sort of different perspective of you know, let's let's wrap bitcoin in 66 00:05:23.639 --> 00:05:26.759 an ETP, let's wrap thetheroeum in an et P, and let's make it 67 00:05:26.839 --> 00:05:31.439 available to the masses. And that's literally what Johan did with XBT Provider. 68 00:05:31.439 --> 00:05:36.240 It's literally what all he did with with Hive. You know he was he 69 00:05:36.360 --> 00:05:42.360 was trying to give people the ability to get long ethereum at the time in 70 00:05:42.439 --> 00:05:46.040 a traditional equity vehicle. And we all know ethereums are Sorry. Hive has 71 00:05:46.040 --> 00:05:48.199 become like a you know, one of the best and biggest out there. 72 00:05:49.399 --> 00:05:54.439 Now, let's talk about DeFi technologies for those who don't know, tell us 73 00:05:54.439 --> 00:05:57.360 about the history, the services, who you work with and so forth. 74 00:05:57.639 --> 00:06:00.639 Yeah, So, like I said, and I think it would have been 75 00:06:00.720 --> 00:06:05.800 twenty twenty twenty twenty one, I was pitched this as an idea. The 76 00:06:05.839 --> 00:06:12.639 stock was only like eight nine, ten eleven cents, and it really hadn't 77 00:06:12.639 --> 00:06:15.920 even started what it was, what it was meant or wanted to do, 78 00:06:15.000 --> 00:06:20.800 which was ultimately to basically wrap almost everything in a traditional equity wrapper. And 79 00:06:20.879 --> 00:06:25.319 I just bought, you know, millions of shares. It did really well. 80 00:06:25.920 --> 00:06:30.720 Ultimately I stepped in and was the CEO all e though as a founder 81 00:06:30.959 --> 00:06:34.399 or Yohan, they were the logical guys to be CEOs. So when when 82 00:06:34.439 --> 00:06:38.720 it was time for them to take it, takeover, obviously that was that 83 00:06:38.800 --> 00:06:45.120 was a natural step. But I just like I was saying, I struggled 84 00:06:45.120 --> 00:06:47.680 with the concept of just being long bitcoin. I struggled with the concept of 85 00:06:47.879 --> 00:06:51.680 just being long ethereum. Not being said, I was probably wrong. I 86 00:06:51.720 --> 00:06:55.839 probably would have made a lot of money if I'd just gone long bitcoin had 87 00:06:55.839 --> 00:07:00.279 gone long ethereum. But just in my mind, I was like, if 88 00:07:00.279 --> 00:07:04.079 I'm going to actually believe in this ecosystem, and I really do believe in 89 00:07:04.120 --> 00:07:08.879 it now, Like I actually think, as you move forward, you know 90 00:07:08.959 --> 00:07:13.720 two three, five ten percent of the global goldflow is going to go into 91 00:07:14.560 --> 00:07:16.360 this is a sector. But as I did more research, you know, 92 00:07:16.439 --> 00:07:21.120 this is growing two times faster than the Internet. It's going to destabilize the 93 00:07:21.120 --> 00:07:25.879 way we do traditional banking like that Now, whenever I send a wire through 94 00:07:25.920 --> 00:07:30.079 my bank, I'm like, guys are taking like three thousand bucks. They 95 00:07:30.120 --> 00:07:34.519 literally you're just pushing a button. And so the more it's it's almost a 96 00:07:35.360 --> 00:07:43.439 counterintuitive thought process. But the more I watch the SEC battle crypto as an 97 00:07:43.439 --> 00:07:46.759 ecosystem in the US, the more I believed in it because the only reason 98 00:07:46.800 --> 00:07:49.600 they're doing it is because they're terrified of what it's going to do to the 99 00:07:49.720 --> 00:07:53.759 US dollar, and they're terrified of what it's going to do to the traditional 100 00:07:53.800 --> 00:07:58.879 banking system. And to me, that's a really appealing investment pieces. But 101 00:07:58.920 --> 00:08:03.199 I hope I answered your question and that's how I got to hear and like 102 00:08:03.240 --> 00:08:05.680 I said, the two partners, the people who run this company or created 103 00:08:05.680 --> 00:08:11.519 this company in twenty seventeen, they're Crypto royalty, right. Ali's well known, 104 00:08:13.240 --> 00:08:18.000 Johan's very well known. And when you dig into investment piecs for any 105 00:08:18.040 --> 00:08:22.360 company, you want management to be very very credible. Ours is, and 106 00:08:22.399 --> 00:08:26.360 you want the investment pieces to be very very robust. Ours is, Like 107 00:08:26.399 --> 00:08:31.800 we're only trading at three times profits and if you look at what, you 108 00:08:31.839 --> 00:08:35.399 know, the average on the S and P is the average S and P 109 00:08:35.639 --> 00:08:39.399 earnings multiple is twenty and we're trading at three. So even if you just 110 00:08:39.440 --> 00:08:43.799 look at it from that perspective, you have a great investment pieces. And 111 00:08:43.840 --> 00:08:48.159 that's why I've basically it's the only crypto asset that I'm invested in, and 112 00:08:48.200 --> 00:08:50.519 I own a lot of it, and I own a lot of it because 113 00:08:52.480 --> 00:08:54.799 really, truly we should be at twenty times earnings. That's typical, and 114 00:08:54.879 --> 00:09:01.200 really truly this company is giving you a diversified way of playing not just Bitcoin 115 00:09:01.320 --> 00:09:03.919 or ethereum, but you know, XRP, ton cooin, chain link. 116 00:09:05.000 --> 00:09:07.919 If you go look at all of the products we have, and you know, 117 00:09:07.960 --> 00:09:11.080 I think by the end of twenty twenty five, we'll probably have between 118 00:09:11.240 --> 00:09:18.039 sixty or eighty ETPs that all fall under the umbrella of DeFi. And that's 119 00:09:18.080 --> 00:09:20.559 the other investment pieces. You know, How do you know what the next 120 00:09:20.559 --> 00:09:24.440 Solanta is going to be? I don't know what it is. Do you 121 00:09:24.480 --> 00:09:28.919 know what it is? You know, when we bought Pomp's research company, 122 00:09:28.960 --> 00:09:31.600 Reflexivity, they have a really good idea of what it's going to be. 123 00:09:31.679 --> 00:09:37.600 But i'd rather be exposed to all of the potential winners through one company, 124 00:09:37.720 --> 00:09:45.799 and that's what you have with DeFi. So you guys mainly have ETPs, 125 00:09:45.960 --> 00:09:48.080 which you know in the United States we call them et apps. Are they 126 00:09:48.200 --> 00:09:52.320 spot or are they futures or do you have both all spot all spot. 127 00:09:54.480 --> 00:10:00.639 You know, it's funny if you look at when Gensler was challenging Grayscale application 128 00:10:00.720 --> 00:10:05.039 to become an ETF, the judge was like, hang on, you guys 129 00:10:05.039 --> 00:10:09.080 are allowing a futures ETF, but why why aren't you allowing a spot ETF. 130 00:10:09.440 --> 00:10:13.320 I mean really, if I mean the future's ETF is just a derivative 131 00:10:13.399 --> 00:10:18.440 on top of another derivative, I'd way rather play from an investment thesis the 132 00:10:18.519 --> 00:10:24.159 spot spot exposure. But when you look at it from a hedging perspective, 133 00:10:24.159 --> 00:10:26.120 you may want to look at the futures, but I don't want to get 134 00:10:26.159 --> 00:10:31.840 into all that sort of complicated trading strategies. Sure, so I remember Canada 135 00:10:31.919 --> 00:10:35.600 being one of the first countries to launch spot. Uh, well, you 136 00:10:35.600 --> 00:10:39.159 guys call it ETPs, and then of course the United States recently, and 137 00:10:39.200 --> 00:10:43.519 then Hong Kong joined the party in London, Thailand, so it seems like 138 00:10:43.559 --> 00:10:48.080 there's game theory playing out here. You know, with Canada being one of 139 00:10:48.080 --> 00:10:54.840 the first countries, was there interests in the Canadian ETPs after the US ETF's 140 00:10:54.840 --> 00:11:01.000 got approved. So that's a really good question. All answer it the way 141 00:11:01.039 --> 00:11:05.639 I typically answer it. The Canadian and the US regulators are out to lunch. 142 00:11:07.679 --> 00:11:11.480 Basically, you have the rest of the world, especially Europe. Like 143 00:11:11.919 --> 00:11:16.399 part of the reason we're in Europe is because Europe has embraced crypto as a 144 00:11:16.440 --> 00:11:22.440 potential, you know, world class opportunity. When you look at why Canada 145 00:11:22.480 --> 00:11:26.759 and the US are so anti crypto, and they really are anti crypto, 146 00:11:26.879 --> 00:11:30.840 like they make your life a nightmare from an audit perspective, from a regulatory 147 00:11:30.919 --> 00:11:35.279 perspective, it's actually it's actually more difficult to be a crypto entity in Canada 148 00:11:35.360 --> 00:11:39.159 or the US than it is a cannabis entity. That's how crazy it is. 149 00:11:39.879 --> 00:11:46.120 So so I think they're missing out on the investment pieces. And you 150 00:11:46.159 --> 00:11:48.799 know, let's be honest, Canada just just basically follows what the US is 151 00:11:48.799 --> 00:11:54.799 doing. And you're now seeing government in the US recognize that they're losing. 152 00:11:54.360 --> 00:11:58.919 They're losing a major opportunity to be a world leader in the crypto ecosystem, 153 00:12:00.080 --> 00:12:03.559 and they're giving that ball and that opportunity to the rest of the world. 154 00:12:03.759 --> 00:12:07.720 So our investment thesis was, look, what Canada does do well is it 155 00:12:07.799 --> 00:12:15.759 does launch risk assets well. So whether it's junior natural resource companies, junior, 156 00:12:16.080 --> 00:12:18.200 you know, it's it's kind of known for that. As as as 157 00:12:18.240 --> 00:12:26.519 a global exchange, you can you can, you can list in Canada and 158 00:12:26.559 --> 00:12:31.120 do well, but ultimately your your your next step or the biggest goal is 159 00:12:31.159 --> 00:12:35.240 going to be either to get on a more relevant global exchange and typically that's 160 00:12:35.279 --> 00:12:37.799 like the ny s C than ASDAK. That's what you know, sort of 161 00:12:39.639 --> 00:12:45.080 let's call it the baby companies do to become teenagers or adults. So that's 162 00:12:45.120 --> 00:12:46.960 ultimately one of our goals and we've press released that. And you know, 163 00:12:48.000 --> 00:12:50.399 once the stock gets to two US, which I'm very confident it will and 164 00:12:50.559 --> 00:12:56.279 quite higher than that, just because that that revenue and earnings multiple is so 165 00:12:56.480 --> 00:13:01.759 low and and you know, always funds and reader looking for those those divergences 166 00:13:01.840 --> 00:13:07.120 in valuation because that's how we make money in this game. But no, 167 00:13:07.240 --> 00:13:13.600 we we ultimately want and will be in Canada more and will be in the 168 00:13:13.720 --> 00:13:18.000 US more, but we're not going to do it until the regulatory authorities really 169 00:13:18.120 --> 00:13:24.840 join the rest of the world with embracing Honestly, if you can think about 170 00:13:24.879 --> 00:13:28.039 it sort of as a as a more of a of a challenging discourse, 171 00:13:28.360 --> 00:13:33.240 can you imagine what would have happened to the Internet as it was trying to 172 00:13:33.240 --> 00:13:37.159 grow if the US basically said now we don't want that. Like that's kind 173 00:13:37.159 --> 00:13:39.919 of the way this is going. And the difference I guess between the Internet 174 00:13:39.919 --> 00:13:46.360 and crypto is is crypto is so destabilizing from a from a US dollar perspective, 175 00:13:46.399 --> 00:13:52.320 and so it's more of a government it's more of a political political challenge, 176 00:13:52.360 --> 00:13:56.399 I guess is the best way to put it, than actually a regulatory 177 00:13:56.480 --> 00:14:00.919 challenge. So so yeah, it was more we have a great chance to 178 00:14:00.960 --> 00:14:05.759 list something all these Canadian I'm Canadian, Johan's Swedish. So that's why a 179 00:14:05.799 --> 00:14:09.759 lot of our products have had a start and trade a lot in the Nordic 180 00:14:09.759 --> 00:14:15.480 growth market. But no, Canada and the US really they need to join 181 00:14:15.720 --> 00:14:22.919 the global party and be more relevant and be be leaders and embrace this rather 182 00:14:22.960 --> 00:14:28.279 than continuously put challenges and hurdles in front of companies such as ourselves to grow, 183 00:14:28.639 --> 00:14:33.159 Yeah, for sure, and hopefully they can get that sorted out soon. 184 00:14:33.279 --> 00:14:37.559 Here in the United States, we're seeing some movement with cryptoregulation bills where 185 00:14:39.039 --> 00:14:41.679 you've had the Democrats start to side with the Republicans to get it done. 186 00:14:41.840 --> 00:14:45.000 It still has to go through the Senate, still has to make it to 187 00:14:45.039 --> 00:14:48.000 the President, and you know, it may happen till twenty twenty five, 188 00:14:48.000 --> 00:14:52.000 but there's at least some momentum, there's some life, some activity happening here. 189 00:14:52.440 --> 00:14:56.519 Well, yeah, I mean you just look. I mean, basically, 190 00:14:56.559 --> 00:15:00.399 they had a bill which they they the bip It was a bi artisan 191 00:15:00.480 --> 00:15:05.440 bill where the Senate and House all embraced it and wanted the big banks to 192 00:15:05.480 --> 00:15:09.639 be able to custody these assets. And then of course Biden vetos it, 193 00:15:09.679 --> 00:15:13.759 probably because he doesn't know anything about it, that's my guess. Probably had 194 00:15:13.759 --> 00:15:16.519 some advisors saying, oh, this is bad for the US dollar. But 195 00:15:18.480 --> 00:15:22.720 yeah, but this like the way often what I say to investors is because 196 00:15:22.720 --> 00:15:26.279 there's a lot of people who still like if you look at Morgan Stanley, 197 00:15:26.360 --> 00:15:31.399 they won't let their clients buy the bitcoin ETF and they won't let their clients 198 00:15:31.440 --> 00:15:35.799 buy a company like ours, it's still backwards. It doesn't make any sense, 199 00:15:35.879 --> 00:15:39.679 Like shouldn't you be embracing something that's going to help people make money and 200 00:15:39.840 --> 00:15:43.799 help people avoid inflation? Right, Like a lot of people who are long 201 00:15:45.039 --> 00:15:48.759 US exchanges don't understand how much they have to make on an annual basis just 202 00:15:48.799 --> 00:15:56.519 to avoid basically what's happening due to inflation to the US dollar. You kind 203 00:15:56.519 --> 00:16:00.960 of have to make another ten to twelve percent every year on your portfolio to 204 00:16:00.039 --> 00:16:06.799 avoid basically you're the US dollar and the Canadian dollar and all of the printing 205 00:16:06.799 --> 00:16:12.960 of the money destroying value. Now, speaking of destroying value and trying to 206 00:16:14.120 --> 00:16:22.360 outpace inflation, Hi Technologies adopted a bitcoin treasury strategy, which is pretty incredible. 207 00:16:22.600 --> 00:16:26.480 We're seeing that trend amongst companies, not just in the United States but 208 00:16:26.559 --> 00:16:30.080 globally. Tell us about this, why and how are you executing that? 209 00:16:32.720 --> 00:16:37.799 So? So why to me is pretty obvious, you know, like when 210 00:16:37.840 --> 00:16:44.120 you I'm trying to remember the quote, but someone was basically saying, you 211 00:16:44.120 --> 00:16:48.120 know, you know, don't invest in bitcoin, you know it's it's going 212 00:16:48.200 --> 00:16:51.240 to de stable. It was probably Gensler. I'm just guessing you know, 213 00:16:51.279 --> 00:16:53.720 we don't want you to invest in bitcoin because it's bad, it's risky, 214 00:16:53.759 --> 00:16:56.840 and I'm in my mind, like I have a master's in econometrics, started 215 00:16:56.879 --> 00:17:00.360 my PhD. I'm like, you, guys, this all backwards, like 216 00:17:00.759 --> 00:17:07.559 inflation and printing of your money supply that is destroying the US dollar. Bitcoin 217 00:17:07.720 --> 00:17:10.880 is actually could be a savior. Like you're looking at what some of the 218 00:17:10.960 --> 00:17:17.359 Latin American countries are doing adopting bitcoin as their defacto currency. That's kind of 219 00:17:17.359 --> 00:17:22.759 how we think. So we have basically about fifty one million US on our 220 00:17:22.799 --> 00:17:29.119 balance sheet, just free capital. And if you're looking at a world where 221 00:17:29.480 --> 00:17:37.400 effectively every government is printing dollars to help sustain the economic recovery, you know, 222 00:17:38.119 --> 00:17:42.160 whatever you want, but the definition of the definition of inflation is actually 223 00:17:42.160 --> 00:17:45.039 the printing of money. So if you actually think and look at what's going 224 00:17:45.079 --> 00:17:49.599 on in the US, inflation is absolutely rampant. It's just that government has 225 00:17:49.640 --> 00:17:53.759 chosen to measure it in different ways, but truly from a pure economic perspective. 226 00:17:55.480 --> 00:17:57.960 And so with that amount of money on our balance sheet, we were 227 00:17:59.000 --> 00:18:03.160 like, this doesn't make any sense. The US dollar. The government is 228 00:18:03.160 --> 00:18:07.160 out of control. The debt on a monthly basis, the interest that is 229 00:18:07.279 --> 00:18:12.480 needed to just service the debt is trillions. Right, you're looking at conceivably 230 00:18:12.559 --> 00:18:18.119 the demise of an entire well, the US dollar is being the de facto 231 00:18:19.599 --> 00:18:25.319 like stable currency for settlement of oil, gold, everything like that. Now 232 00:18:25.400 --> 00:18:29.839 you've got the printing of money, you've got inflation, and what better way 233 00:18:29.920 --> 00:18:36.079 to protect your your balance sheet than to buy some bitcoin. And the beauty 234 00:18:36.079 --> 00:18:38.920 of it for us as well is that we have a relationship and a partnership 235 00:18:38.960 --> 00:18:44.640 with Core and the best way you can look at Core people, I recommend 236 00:18:44.680 --> 00:18:49.640 everybody basically google Core dow Do and you'll see kind of their white paper, 237 00:18:49.799 --> 00:18:53.519 their thought process. I simplified and say, they're kind of like a layer 238 00:18:53.559 --> 00:19:00.640 two on bitcoin. But you can generate fifteen sixteen percent yield on your bitcoin 239 00:19:00.839 --> 00:19:07.720 just actually staking it lending it in the bitcoin on the bitcoin ecosystem through Core, 240 00:19:07.920 --> 00:19:12.559 so you get long bitcoin amazing. You're you're not worried about the US 241 00:19:12.680 --> 00:19:19.319 dollar basically destroying itself, and you have a better value and opportunity for shareholders 242 00:19:19.359 --> 00:19:26.440 to see that you're committed to maintaining your treasury and not allowing it to basically 243 00:19:26.480 --> 00:19:30.440 be destroyed by inflation. So you know, micro Strategy has been doing this 244 00:19:30.599 --> 00:19:33.599 for I don't know how many years, and people are paying them a premium 245 00:19:33.640 --> 00:19:37.119 for it. Why on earth wouldn't other companies do that as well? It 246 00:19:37.319 --> 00:19:42.720 just it's a completely sensible way of managing your treasure. Yeah. Absolutely. 247 00:19:44.799 --> 00:19:48.759 Now, in regards to you mentioned you had fifty one million in cash and 248 00:19:48.799 --> 00:19:52.279 reserves. How much of that fifty one million are you allocating to bitcoin? 249 00:19:52.359 --> 00:20:00.359 Is it twenty fifty percent? And what's the buying process? Are you like 250 00:20:00.480 --> 00:20:07.839 buying all at once or you don't cost averaging over time? So we have 251 00:20:07.400 --> 00:20:11.240 one hundred and ten bitcoin as well on top of the fifty one, so 252 00:20:11.279 --> 00:20:15.240 we actually have closer to sixty And I was honestly just discussing the concept of 253 00:20:17.599 --> 00:20:23.799 actually buying substantially more to protect our treasury. We don't really worry about sort 254 00:20:23.799 --> 00:20:29.519 of the dollar cost averaging perspective on that. You know, it's our view, 255 00:20:29.559 --> 00:20:33.640 and I think it's many people's view that post having bitcoin is likely going 256 00:20:33.640 --> 00:20:37.200 a lot higher. I think with your with all of the inflows you're seeing 257 00:20:37.240 --> 00:20:42.960 from the bitcoin ets, that provides a really good base upon which to build 258 00:20:42.960 --> 00:20:47.799 that next ascent, and then you saw today that it looks like inflation is 259 00:20:47.799 --> 00:20:51.039 a little bit more subdued in the US, which which also puts a bit 260 00:20:51.079 --> 00:20:53.480 in bitcoin. So we just bought one hundred and ten I think was last 261 00:20:53.480 --> 00:20:57.000 week. We're looking at allocating more and more and more of that capital. 262 00:20:57.680 --> 00:21:02.799 But what you need to do as a company like ours, And I was 263 00:21:02.880 --> 00:21:07.119 just pitching a very very big retail book this morning. They head close to 264 00:21:07.160 --> 00:21:11.799 a billion in their book, which is substantial. They have nothing in crypto. 265 00:21:12.160 --> 00:21:15.759 They have an allocated one penny, And I was like, look, 266 00:21:17.079 --> 00:21:21.079 you're invested in gold. Great, gold's being on a tear, but I 267 00:21:21.079 --> 00:21:23.119 don't know why you wouldn't look at bitcoin. Bitcoin is stealing a lot of 268 00:21:23.119 --> 00:21:29.559 those gold flows, and if you can you can stake or lend that on 269 00:21:29.599 --> 00:21:32.920 top of it and generate, you know, whether you're using core or just 270 00:21:32.960 --> 00:21:37.279 a simple lending strategy of two to four percent on a lending strategy, you're 271 00:21:37.319 --> 00:21:41.119 actually making money on top of that. So my view is that you're going 272 00:21:41.160 --> 00:21:45.720 to see more and more companies look at that as a solution. But the 273 00:21:45.920 --> 00:21:49.359 other thing that we're looking at, and I mentioned this to you as well, 274 00:21:49.880 --> 00:21:52.200 you know, we're going to do close to one hundred, one hundred 275 00:21:52.200 --> 00:21:57.960 and twenty million US and profits in Q two. Most companies in the US 276 00:21:59.359 --> 00:22:03.880 off of that amount of profits trade at about a two billion dollar market cap. 277 00:22:03.920 --> 00:22:06.640 That's that twenty times earnings. So if you were looking at the entire 278 00:22:06.759 --> 00:22:11.960 SMP, it trades basically at twenty times earnings. We're going to do one 279 00:22:11.039 --> 00:22:15.519 hundred. Let's just simplify. I call it one hundred in Q two and 280 00:22:15.559 --> 00:22:18.400 this is all public information. We've press released it. Off of Q two 281 00:22:18.519 --> 00:22:22.759 alone, we should have a two billion dollar market cap and here we are 282 00:22:22.839 --> 00:22:26.720 sitting at about a five hundred million dollar market cap. So the other thing 283 00:22:26.799 --> 00:22:30.519 we're looking at is we're so cheap, maybe we should be buying our own 284 00:22:30.680 --> 00:22:34.160 our own shares back, and so we actually press release that we might also 285 00:22:34.200 --> 00:22:41.599 be buying our shares back because it just it's a crazy disconnect and that you 286 00:22:41.640 --> 00:22:47.119 know, I always say to people, if everything worked efficiently, none of 287 00:22:47.200 --> 00:22:48.920 us would be doing this because we wouldn't make any money. Everything would be 288 00:22:49.000 --> 00:22:52.119 trading at the price and should be trading it. When you see these valuation 289 00:22:52.240 --> 00:22:56.480 disconnects, that's the opportunity. So you know, we have guys like pomp 290 00:22:56.640 --> 00:23:02.039 who who writes us up pretty regularly. He's a shareholder. We own his 291 00:23:02.119 --> 00:23:07.119 research company. Obviously there's a relationship there. But he's a really smart guy. 292 00:23:07.319 --> 00:23:11.480 And even he's screaming, you know, from the top of the trees 293 00:23:11.480 --> 00:23:15.119 with a megaphone. Guys, you got to get long defive, like at 294 00:23:15.160 --> 00:23:18.480 three times four times. Even if we were at ten times earnings or a 295 00:23:18.519 --> 00:23:21.680 billion market cap, which is a double from here, we'd still have to 296 00:23:21.720 --> 00:23:25.799 double again to get to the S and P average. So so yeah, 297 00:23:26.039 --> 00:23:29.799 we'll add more bitcoin, but we also might be buying our shares back, 298 00:23:30.720 --> 00:23:33.920 just depending on what the cost of capital is. But look, it's a 299 00:23:33.960 --> 00:23:37.920 happy problem to have. Sure, Now, how are you custodying that bitcoin? 300 00:23:38.079 --> 00:23:41.440 And maybe this is along the lines of the ETPs, how would how 301 00:23:41.440 --> 00:23:47.119 would are those respective assets being custodied as well? Yeah, great question. 302 00:23:48.200 --> 00:23:53.079 Just because of the experience obviously that Johan and Allie have in this entire web 303 00:23:53.119 --> 00:23:56.960 three point zero world, we basically only deal with the top three or four 304 00:23:57.000 --> 00:24:03.759 custodians. So you know, that's that's coinbase anchorage, that's fidelity. But 305 00:24:04.279 --> 00:24:10.200 what's happened recently with us because our assets have grown so much we now run 306 00:24:10.240 --> 00:24:15.839 basically our own validators, so we don't even have to send or custody anything. 307 00:24:15.880 --> 00:24:19.960 We just carried on our own validator note, so we've eliminated that as 308 00:24:21.000 --> 00:24:25.599 a risk as a potential risk for the company. But if we were going 309 00:24:25.599 --> 00:24:29.799 to custody, it would be the fidelities the anchorages of the world. And 310 00:24:29.880 --> 00:24:34.000 we also do own I think we own about five percent of a private Swiss 311 00:24:34.400 --> 00:24:38.039 bank that also has all the crypto licenses. We will custody with them as 312 00:24:38.079 --> 00:24:42.640 well, but again it's with the best of the best. We just have 313 00:24:42.720 --> 00:24:47.640 the luxury of not having to do that. Now. Wow, now I 314 00:24:47.759 --> 00:24:53.599 read that there is a subsidiary called Valor Incorporated. Tell us about that subsidiary 315 00:24:53.680 --> 00:25:00.400 and is that handling any of the crypto assets? What's the AUM and things 316 00:25:00.440 --> 00:25:03.759 like that. Yeah, so, so Valor is our ETP provider, So 317 00:25:03.759 --> 00:25:08.400 so that is where we launch all of our ETPs. DeFi owns one hundred 318 00:25:08.440 --> 00:25:12.720 percent of Valor, We own one hundred percent of Reflexivity. We own about 319 00:25:12.759 --> 00:25:18.359 five percent of that Cryptoswiss Bank, which we think is worth substantially more than 320 00:25:18.400 --> 00:25:22.519 we we listed at just because we invested when they only had a billion in 321 00:25:22.559 --> 00:25:26.480 AUM and they have close to three billion. Then we have a venture portfolio 322 00:25:26.559 --> 00:25:30.599 where along with POMP, we'll take small bets on new and upcoming coins like 323 00:25:30.839 --> 00:25:37.640 sci Hashadra, that kind of stuff. And really truly Pomp and Will are 324 00:25:37.720 --> 00:25:41.160 kind of the brain childs behind that. But the vast majority of all of 325 00:25:41.200 --> 00:25:45.119 the revenue we generate comes from Valor, and Valor is where we list all 326 00:25:45.119 --> 00:25:51.279 those ETPs. So, you know, we just we just listed I think 327 00:25:51.279 --> 00:25:53.079 it was hashid Era. We have a core ETP. I think I think 328 00:25:53.079 --> 00:25:59.599 that's going to listed. You know, those are all created listed, All 329 00:25:59.599 --> 00:26:06.680 the ectuses are you know, filed through Valor, and Valor's primary jurisdiction and 330 00:26:06.720 --> 00:26:10.559 source of business right now is Europe. But if you go look through our 331 00:26:11.279 --> 00:26:14.720 historical press releases, you'll see that we're actually looking to expand in the Middle 332 00:26:14.759 --> 00:26:17.920 East. Again. This is this is where it gets crazy, like why 333 00:26:17.960 --> 00:26:22.440 isn't the US embracing this? So here we are. You know, we'd 334 00:26:22.519 --> 00:26:25.920 love to offer all our products to everyone in the US, but until the 335 00:26:26.039 --> 00:26:30.039 US regulators get their heads on straight. Same thing with Canada, what's the 336 00:26:30.079 --> 00:26:34.640 point. So we're going to be opening and passporting all our prospectuses to the 337 00:26:34.640 --> 00:26:40.880 Middle East. We're doing that for Asia, you know. So honestly, 338 00:26:41.559 --> 00:26:44.680 all of that math that I gave you is based off of what we currently 339 00:26:44.720 --> 00:26:48.400 have. But if you were to look at like coinbase or Robinhood, they're 340 00:26:48.400 --> 00:26:53.000 trading at thirty or forty times earnings because they're in high growth mode, you 341 00:26:53.200 --> 00:26:57.160 probably should be strapping a thirty or forty onto our multiple. And again it's 342 00:26:57.160 --> 00:27:02.079 only like three or four right now because we are in growth mode. And 343 00:27:02.359 --> 00:27:06.400 can you imagine we only have twenty three ETPs now, But you know, 344 00:27:06.440 --> 00:27:10.079 if at the end of twenty twenty five we have sixty or seventy, our 345 00:27:10.160 --> 00:27:15.200 au M will be massive. And that's how we generate our revenue and basically 346 00:27:15.759 --> 00:27:22.039 provide upside to shareholders who own dfive. Now you mentioned different all coins that 347 00:27:22.079 --> 00:27:26.279 you guys have, ETP, spoor, ex, ra h bar hit or 348 00:27:27.119 --> 00:27:30.920 are you do you also have like baskets like here's the top ten, YEP 349 00:27:32.079 --> 00:27:33.720 five and things like that. Yeah, yeah, so we have a bunch 350 00:27:33.720 --> 00:27:37.880 of baskets. I think we have seven or eight of them. We have 351 00:27:37.920 --> 00:27:44.680 a bitcoin yield product that gives this one's crazy. Whenever you buy a bitcoin 352 00:27:44.720 --> 00:27:49.640 ETF in the US, you're paying black Rock or Grayscale or whomever has launched 353 00:27:49.680 --> 00:27:53.039 that that ETF, you're paying them between one and two and a half or 354 00:27:53.039 --> 00:27:59.319 three percent. We actually with our Bitcoin yield product, pay you five point 355 00:27:59.359 --> 00:28:03.759 sixty five, so you can get long a bitcoin ETF and be paid a 356 00:28:03.839 --> 00:28:07.119 yield. I think that has the potential to destabilize the entire ETF market. 357 00:28:08.519 --> 00:28:15.519 But yeah, we have basket products. We have a basically for anybody who 358 00:28:15.559 --> 00:28:19.720 believes or wants to hedge out bitcoin exposure. We have a Bitcoin short ETP, 359 00:28:21.400 --> 00:28:25.880 and you'll see more and more creative products, like if you really think 360 00:28:25.960 --> 00:28:30.319 through our mantra. You know our Bitcoin zero we call it Bitcoin zero because 361 00:28:30.319 --> 00:28:33.480 we charge no management please on it, and our Ethereum zero. Those were 362 00:28:33.559 --> 00:28:41.759 kind of the start of this company. But Solana Solana a year and a 363 00:28:41.799 --> 00:28:44.799 half ago only had like ten or twenty million in it. Now it has 364 00:28:44.960 --> 00:28:48.160 close to three or four hundred billion in it. The reason why is Solana 365 00:28:48.200 --> 00:28:52.440 has gone crazy. But often what I say to people is, you know 366 00:28:52.960 --> 00:28:56.400 how and who do you think the next winner is going to be? Is 367 00:28:56.400 --> 00:29:00.359 it Sei, is it ICP? Is it hashid Era? I don't know 368 00:29:00.400 --> 00:29:04.480 the answer, but I can actually get exposure to all of those by owning 369 00:29:04.559 --> 00:29:08.279 defive. So yeah, we'll have basket products. We have two or three 370 00:29:08.319 --> 00:29:12.440 of them right now. We'll have index products. We have one index products 371 00:29:14.200 --> 00:29:18.960 products. So you know, we're like a baby black Rock or a baby 372 00:29:18.039 --> 00:29:22.960 Vanguard. You know, anyone who you know of who has tons of ets 373 00:29:22.960 --> 00:29:26.319 whether it's gold oil, you know, two times gold up, two times 374 00:29:26.400 --> 00:29:33.160 gold down, whatever. We're that just much smaller, growing very very quickly. 375 00:29:33.799 --> 00:29:37.359 And as I often say, you know, take any of those. 376 00:29:37.440 --> 00:29:41.119 Our revenue model is their revenue model on steroids because we average about ten percent 377 00:29:41.200 --> 00:29:48.039 yield, they average about one or two percent year mhm. With regards to 378 00:29:48.240 --> 00:29:52.559 and I think you may have touched on this with the ETPs that are available 379 00:29:52.559 --> 00:29:56.839 in Europe, given that there is being once again the approval in the US, 380 00:29:56.880 --> 00:30:00.839 Hong Kong, London, have you guys started to see a lot of 381 00:30:00.920 --> 00:30:04.359 interest and maybe from institutional investors, wealth managers or who are like, Okay, 382 00:30:04.440 --> 00:30:07.920 we want to get exposure. We see what's the writing on the wall 383 00:30:07.960 --> 00:30:11.839 and what's on the horizon here. Maybe you can tell us who's been engaging 384 00:30:11.839 --> 00:30:18.079 with you guys to try to idect. So yes, ticket size has gone 385 00:30:18.119 --> 00:30:21.960 way up for all of the products we have. And is that an institution. 386 00:30:22.400 --> 00:30:26.400 We can't tell you with one hundred percent certainty, but typically when you're 387 00:30:26.400 --> 00:30:30.039 getting five or ten million dollar orders, it is moving into the institutional realm. 388 00:30:30.519 --> 00:30:34.039 But the reality is and what I again sort of everybody needs to remember 389 00:30:34.079 --> 00:30:41.440 this, And basically the crypto natives such as yourself, like people who really 390 00:30:41.480 --> 00:30:48.160 are intimate with the crypto universe, they often forget that the vast majority of 391 00:30:48.200 --> 00:30:52.920 this world A avoids crypto or B. Even if they're not avoiding it, 392 00:30:53.000 --> 00:30:56.480 they kind of don't know anything about it and they don't even really know how 393 00:30:56.480 --> 00:31:00.559 to get into it. Yeah, and when you have a red later like 394 00:31:00.599 --> 00:31:06.880 the Canadian regulator or the US regulator, who really is making it hard for 395 00:31:07.000 --> 00:31:11.079 anyone to truly embrace this right everywhere else in the world they are, it 396 00:31:11.160 --> 00:31:18.359 creates another level of uncertainty. So once the Bitcoin ETF was approved, that 397 00:31:18.400 --> 00:31:22.640 basically validated our business model. And you've seen our stock do very well, 398 00:31:22.680 --> 00:31:26.640 you've seen our assets grow, but we're only like I don't even know if 399 00:31:26.680 --> 00:31:30.400 we're an inning one. We might only be in the first pitch of the 400 00:31:30.440 --> 00:31:36.240 first inning in terms of where this ecosystem can go. Because remember growing two 401 00:31:36.279 --> 00:31:38.640 times faster than the Internet. But when you're growing two times faster than the 402 00:31:38.640 --> 00:31:45.160 Internet and call it ninety or ninety five percent of the population still hasn't or 403 00:31:45.240 --> 00:31:48.759 doesn't or won't get exposure to it, you got a long way to go. 404 00:31:49.079 --> 00:31:52.519 And so that's why I'm so excited about DeFi. It's why I'm so 405 00:31:52.680 --> 00:31:57.920 excited about about the ecosystem because you know, you're seeing the likes of Goldman 406 00:31:59.039 --> 00:32:05.480 Sacks and JP Morgan and senators and congress people. You're seeing them realize, 407 00:32:05.839 --> 00:32:09.359 hang on a second, my constituents actually want this. Why are we fighting 408 00:32:09.359 --> 00:32:14.960 it? Like like, why do we have an SEC chairman who who basically 409 00:32:15.640 --> 00:32:22.000 will take a losing battle to the Supreme Court over and over and over again. 410 00:32:22.960 --> 00:32:25.440 Why are we doing this? We're all we're doing is basically, you 411 00:32:25.480 --> 00:32:30.640 know, we're putting We're standing up like a little tiny gull in front of 412 00:32:30.640 --> 00:32:32.960 a steamroller and hoping that the doll is going to stop the steamroller. If 413 00:32:34.240 --> 00:32:37.240 if Crypto was going to go down, it would have gone down with FTX 414 00:32:37.440 --> 00:32:43.759 Alameda three, Aero's capital. It didn't, and so that's that for me, 415 00:32:43.880 --> 00:32:49.279 is sort of vindication for this ecosystem and quite frankly, a really big 416 00:32:49.359 --> 00:32:53.079 sort of warning shot across everyone's bow. People need to get exposure to this. 417 00:32:53.200 --> 00:32:57.920 And the next leg to that is what you're also seeing is you're seeing 418 00:32:58.000 --> 00:33:01.799 funds who are getting exposure to it and who have taken the risk if you 419 00:33:01.839 --> 00:33:06.319 want to call it that, to buy an ETF or get long bitcoin or 420 00:33:06.359 --> 00:33:12.279 SLANNA or whatever. They're vastly outperforming all of the other portfolios. And so 421 00:33:12.359 --> 00:33:15.160 if you actually want to keep up with some of these funds and some of 422 00:33:15.200 --> 00:33:21.359 these portfolios that are just you know, they're almost vertical, because yeah, 423 00:33:21.400 --> 00:33:24.519 you've seen bitcoin, you do pretty well, but we're really just hovering around 424 00:33:24.559 --> 00:33:29.559 the previous all time high. Where's that next leg you look at? Listen 425 00:33:29.559 --> 00:33:31.920 to Kathy would I don't know if I espouse her, you know, one 426 00:33:31.920 --> 00:33:37.480 point five million dollar price on bitcoin. But it's theoretically possible, yeah, 427 00:33:37.559 --> 00:33:45.119 right, if if you had the world commit ten percent of their capital to 428 00:33:45.200 --> 00:33:49.960 crypto, crypto prices would be up tenfold, twenty fold. And so that's 429 00:33:50.000 --> 00:33:53.519 what the potential opportunity is. And that's why you know, it's funny all 430 00:33:53.599 --> 00:33:58.920 my trad five Brett brethren who are like now I'm going to buy gold or 431 00:33:59.000 --> 00:34:02.079 I'm going to stick to or whatever. They're missing out on what made maybe 432 00:34:02.160 --> 00:34:07.960 one of the most exciting trade opportunities stints the Internet. And that's what I 433 00:34:08.000 --> 00:34:12.519 think people need to realize, and that's what the trad five people really need 434 00:34:12.519 --> 00:34:16.800 to realize. There are people becoming millionaires, one hundred millionaires, billionaires because 435 00:34:16.840 --> 00:34:22.679 they're they're looking, they're learning, and they understand the potential application to destabilize 436 00:34:23.119 --> 00:34:29.159 not just governments destroying their currencies, but also the banking system. Right like 437 00:34:29.400 --> 00:34:31.079 I mentioned it, like could you imagine if you could send a wire by 438 00:34:31.119 --> 00:34:35.599 pushing a button? That would be amazing. That's what this is going to 439 00:34:35.639 --> 00:34:39.360 do. Absolutely, And you know, as you're saying that, where there's 440 00:34:39.400 --> 00:34:44.360 some folks who are still on the fence so or you know that they're not 441 00:34:44.440 --> 00:34:50.400 maybe living up to their fuciary responsibility of making the greatest return or preserving as 442 00:34:50.480 --> 00:34:52.559 much of their purchasing power of cash on their balance sheet and so forth. 443 00:34:52.960 --> 00:34:58.360 But but eventually I feel like they're all going to capitulate and jump in maybe 444 00:34:58.519 --> 00:35:01.840 yeah, because like, look what you guys are doing buying bitcoin, putting 445 00:35:01.920 --> 00:35:06.840 on your balance sheet, and then you have these ETPs and ETFs now available 446 00:35:06.880 --> 00:35:10.079 globally. Those who are paying attention and like, wait a minute, you 447 00:35:10.079 --> 00:35:14.559 know I need to get exposure. You're going to do well. And then 448 00:35:14.800 --> 00:35:16.599 the laggards, I don't know, maybe they're going to lose market share, 449 00:35:16.719 --> 00:35:21.639 lose clients, things like that. Well, you know it's fine. I 450 00:35:22.440 --> 00:35:25.639 You know, for a long time in the crypto winner, people were just 451 00:35:25.800 --> 00:35:34.440 tearing me to shreds because when DeFi last was trading at like three four bucks, 452 00:35:34.840 --> 00:35:38.559 I would often say to people, Look, can you imagine if you 453 00:35:39.000 --> 00:35:43.480 went back twenty thirty years and you had a chance to take five grand or 454 00:35:43.519 --> 00:35:49.559 ten grand and buy Microsoft, Amazon, and Apple. You'd be retired and 455 00:35:49.719 --> 00:35:52.760 your yacht would be like the size of a football field, Like that's how 456 00:35:52.840 --> 00:35:57.000 much money you would make. But the reality is that if you just look 457 00:35:57.039 --> 00:36:01.199 at Amazon or even Microsoft, these these were guys with dream working out of 458 00:36:01.239 --> 00:36:05.719 garages, right, Like, oh my gosh, are you really going to 459 00:36:05.880 --> 00:36:09.079 pitch me some guy who's in his dad's garage trying to shit me packages? 460 00:36:09.960 --> 00:36:16.280 That was Amazon, right. I'm not saying that every opportunity in this ecosystem 461 00:36:16.320 --> 00:36:21.000 is going to be an Amazon. But what I am saying is that's what 462 00:36:21.039 --> 00:36:25.199 the potential upside is. You could look back five ten years from now, 463 00:36:25.679 --> 00:36:30.960 and again there's always risk associated with any investment, but you could look back 464 00:36:30.000 --> 00:36:35.599 five or ten years from now and be like, wow, I watched that 465 00:36:35.719 --> 00:36:39.679 podcast. I should have bought I should a bought DeFi Or you can be 466 00:36:39.960 --> 00:36:44.840 a really smart, sensible, savvy investor and go hang on a second. 467 00:36:44.840 --> 00:36:47.880 This is trading at three or four times profits. Everything else is trading at 468 00:36:47.920 --> 00:36:52.239 twenty, and they're concert trading at like thirty or forty. I'm going to 469 00:36:52.280 --> 00:36:55.199 buy ten thousand shares for fifty thousand or one hundred thousand, you know, 470 00:36:55.239 --> 00:37:01.599 whatever your appetite is. And again no guarante. But if this ecosystem is 471 00:37:01.639 --> 00:37:04.760 going to do what I think it's going to do, and you think it's 472 00:37:04.800 --> 00:37:07.400 going to do, in it and look, my firm belief is we are 473 00:37:07.400 --> 00:37:14.199 there and it's going to happen. You have life changing wealth opportunities to invest 474 00:37:14.239 --> 00:37:17.320 in right now, and that to me is really exciting. And yeah, 475 00:37:17.400 --> 00:37:21.360 you can buy a copper company, a gold company, or you know, 476 00:37:21.400 --> 00:37:27.719 buy some Amazon or Nvidia. Amazing companies, they're all amazing. But this, 477 00:37:27.719 --> 00:37:32.719 this ecosystem, I think has the opportunity to provide people one hundred beggars 478 00:37:32.840 --> 00:37:37.320 thousand bag or beggars. And honestly, I think DeFi given how much money 479 00:37:37.320 --> 00:37:40.760 we're making, like this isn't a pie in the sky company hoping to make 480 00:37:40.800 --> 00:37:45.480 money. It only costs US ten million bucks to run this company. So 481 00:37:45.519 --> 00:37:49.400 when I said one hundred million in Q two, our profits are basically ninety 482 00:37:49.519 --> 00:37:52.519 million dollars. So if we made one hundred and fifty for the year, 483 00:37:52.960 --> 00:37:57.679 one hundred and forty million in profit, that's staggering. And again like it's 484 00:37:57.719 --> 00:38:01.199 a four hundred million US market cap making one hundred and twenty or one hundred 485 00:38:01.239 --> 00:38:05.880 and fifty million, and if we keep on growing, those numbers are going 486 00:38:05.920 --> 00:38:09.199 to be a thing of the past. So it's it's it's fascinating. It's 487 00:38:09.360 --> 00:38:16.119 like psychology, risk and opportunity all you know in one basket, and to 488 00:38:16.199 --> 00:38:21.760 me, that's a really exciting investment. Pieces. Now, what's on your 489 00:38:22.280 --> 00:38:24.639 By the way, this is recorded to all edit make the edits again, 490 00:38:24.719 --> 00:38:30.239 Yeah all good, Yeah good. What's on the roadmap? What's on the 491 00:38:30.280 --> 00:38:36.239 remainder of your roadmap for it this year, So more products, and I 492 00:38:36.280 --> 00:38:39.400 can't really tell you exactly which ones they're going to be until we press released 493 00:38:39.440 --> 00:38:43.239 them, but you're going to We're at twenty three products now. We'll finish 494 00:38:43.280 --> 00:38:47.400 the year probably minimum thirty, maybe thirty five. The reason I'm confident about 495 00:38:47.400 --> 00:38:54.239 that is when when you know, Crypto Winter and Tara Luna and FTX were 496 00:38:54.280 --> 00:38:59.639 happening, the regulators were like, I'm not sure. Now they've seen how 497 00:38:59.639 --> 00:39:01.880 stable of these products are, how much money they can make as an exchange 498 00:39:01.880 --> 00:39:06.599 off of them, So are trying to turn around a new product is really 499 00:39:06.599 --> 00:39:08.599 only about four weeks now, whereas before it could be like three months, 500 00:39:09.800 --> 00:39:14.960 So a lot more new products. We've got a ton of cash on our 501 00:39:14.960 --> 00:39:19.679 balance sheet, and we do see some really appealing M and A opportunities, 502 00:39:19.719 --> 00:39:22.519 So who knows, you could see us and bark on something interesting. You 503 00:39:22.559 --> 00:39:27.880 know, one of my big worries is when you're only trading at three or 504 00:39:27.920 --> 00:39:34.239 four times profits and you've got these big, big players like Blackrock, Fidelity, 505 00:39:34.639 --> 00:39:37.320 Coin based, robin It, you know, all of them are going 506 00:39:37.360 --> 00:39:40.199 to start seeing the amount of money we make they could pay us, you 507 00:39:40.199 --> 00:39:44.719 know, three hundred percent premium, it would still be a take under. 508 00:39:44.920 --> 00:39:50.400 Like that's how perplexing our valuation is right now. So so who knows whether 509 00:39:50.440 --> 00:39:52.239 someone takes a run at us, that would be amazing. And for the 510 00:39:52.280 --> 00:39:55.719 record, that's not on the table. Nothing's happened. I just you know, 511 00:39:55.800 --> 00:39:59.239 I'm a I'm a tradi fi guy, and when you see that much 512 00:39:59.280 --> 00:40:06.320 money trading at that little multiple, it becomes appetizing. We've trust released, 513 00:40:06.360 --> 00:40:12.199 We're expanding into the Middle East, that's going to be huge. We're expanding 514 00:40:12.199 --> 00:40:15.320 into Asia, We're launching our products on the London Stock Exchange. They've started 515 00:40:15.320 --> 00:40:21.519 to embrace ETPs in the crypto space. Hopefully the US government, like you've 516 00:40:21.559 --> 00:40:25.920 got basically Trump's now embracing crypto. Whether Trump wins or not, You've got 517 00:40:25.920 --> 00:40:31.119 the Congress and the Senate really becoming more supportive of this. And to me, 518 00:40:31.239 --> 00:40:35.559 it's only a matter of time before Bidener, whoever comes in, has 519 00:40:35.679 --> 00:40:39.880 to do an about face. So there's a ton of amazing stuff that could 520 00:40:39.920 --> 00:40:45.880 happen. It's just our job to create as much value for our investors, 521 00:40:46.159 --> 00:40:50.519 launch as many of these products as we can, really try to take the 522 00:40:50.559 --> 00:40:54.639 world by storm, and then ultimately gravitate some of these products to Canada and 523 00:40:54.679 --> 00:41:00.519 the US once the regulators get their heads screwed on straight. I'll look to 524 00:41:00.519 --> 00:41:07.360 get your thoughts on tokenization and are you guys playing with tokenization? Really good 525 00:41:07.440 --> 00:41:14.400 question. Look, it is something that will be a part or a piece 526 00:41:14.400 --> 00:41:20.639 of the future. It's not something that we're aggressively moving into. I think 527 00:41:20.679 --> 00:41:23.960 there's still still a few hurdles or challenges in front of it. But but 528 00:41:24.039 --> 00:41:29.800 don't be surprised if you you don't see us launch a token type E t 529 00:41:30.000 --> 00:41:35.159 P. Absolutely we're looking at doing an AI type e t P as well, 530 00:41:36.000 --> 00:41:42.719 because you know, if you really spend some time looking at at DeFi 531 00:41:42.840 --> 00:41:46.440 and what it's, what it is at its core. So the single biggest 532 00:41:46.440 --> 00:41:51.079 trend in the world right now from a capital market perspective is et s, 533 00:41:51.280 --> 00:41:54.960 the et application of everything, So whether it's gold, oil, baskets, 534 00:41:55.000 --> 00:41:59.800 indexes, you know, everybody's moving towards that. And then one of the 535 00:41:59.800 --> 00:42:05.960 other biggest trends in the world is crypto, and within crypto is obviously tokenization. 536 00:42:07.280 --> 00:42:12.639 We hurdle both of those and so you know, would you do you 537 00:42:12.639 --> 00:42:15.840 want to be a market leader in tokenization? I don't think so. I 538 00:42:15.880 --> 00:42:20.679 think you'd rather be the second or the third player, wait and see what 539 00:42:20.760 --> 00:42:24.920 happens and then create create an ATP on it. But yes, I do 540 00:42:24.920 --> 00:42:29.760 do think ultimately, you know, people are going to buy houses like a 541 00:42:30.119 --> 00:42:31.719 they'll tokenize a house, it will go on to a chain, you won't 542 00:42:31.760 --> 00:42:35.519 need a realtor, and you'll be able to buy a house or a car 543 00:42:35.719 --> 00:42:38.000 or whatever. I really do think that's a trend and somewhere where we're going. 544 00:42:38.039 --> 00:42:40.280 I just don't know if we want to be at the forefront of it, 545 00:42:40.360 --> 00:42:47.400 because it really truly what are we're We're a fintech company who's embraced crypto 546 00:42:49.159 --> 00:42:52.159 and ETFs. Yeah, that absolutely makes sense. And a lot of these 547 00:42:52.159 --> 00:42:55.519 things you're still going through trial and error to figure out what's you know, 548 00:42:55.679 --> 00:43:00.599 lawg what what has staying power, and what you know people will use. 549 00:43:00.880 --> 00:43:04.239 But yeah, that absolutely makes sense. I know we're coming up on time, 550 00:43:04.280 --> 00:43:07.000 so I have some wrap up questions here for you. First, if 551 00:43:07.039 --> 00:43:12.400 you could create your own metaverse, what would the theme be. I'm a 552 00:43:12.519 --> 00:43:15.800 sports lover, so it'd be some sort of a of a of a you 553 00:43:15.840 --> 00:43:21.960 know, a world series of like NFL hockey baseball, Like, I think 554 00:43:22.000 --> 00:43:24.639 that would be super cool. So so that would be my metaverse focus. 555 00:43:25.159 --> 00:43:28.559 I don't know if it's what other people would do, but I think that 556 00:43:28.599 --> 00:43:31.440 would be super cool. And you you know you've seen concerts in the metaverse, 557 00:43:31.800 --> 00:43:36.880 Yeah, I think. I think world sporting events would be really cool. 558 00:43:37.480 --> 00:43:38.400 I would love that. I'm a big sports fan, so like, 559 00:43:38.440 --> 00:43:42.559 if I can't travel to a game or something, if I can exactly on 560 00:43:42.639 --> 00:43:46.199 my Oculus and get that full immersive experience exactly, wouldn't that be cool? 561 00:43:46.400 --> 00:43:55.639 That'd be amazing. Rapid fire questions favorite food, sushi, favorite musician or 562 00:43:55.639 --> 00:44:01.079 band. I'm gonna get roasted for this. I'm I'm a little bit old 563 00:44:01.079 --> 00:44:06.800 school, but I loved Hall and Oates and led Zeppelin, so people can 564 00:44:06.880 --> 00:44:13.639 laugh at me. But my newer ones would be probably Tama Paula and Coldplay. 565 00:44:14.599 --> 00:44:16.840 Man. I got Hall and Oates, I got love Zeppelin on my 566 00:44:16.920 --> 00:44:21.199 playlist. I listened to everything. But you can't, I mean, how 567 00:44:21.199 --> 00:44:23.440 can you hate on those bands? You know? Well, it's just maybe 568 00:44:23.480 --> 00:44:28.199 I look, I'm I'm one of the most uncool people in the world, 569 00:44:28.280 --> 00:44:35.440 and that probably didn't help me out. So favorite movie I love done too. 570 00:44:36.800 --> 00:44:40.039 I mean, like like historical, like world class movies. I probably 571 00:44:40.039 --> 00:44:44.320 have to say, Butch Cassidy, I'm a sundance kid with Robert Redford and 572 00:44:44.360 --> 00:44:47.639 Paul Newman. But of the newer genre, Dune one and Dune two were 573 00:44:47.639 --> 00:44:52.440 incredible. I can't wait for doing it, like like the finale. That 574 00:44:52.639 --> 00:44:55.280 was an epic movie. I haven't seen two as yet. I've seen one. 575 00:44:55.400 --> 00:44:59.679 It's Oh, you gotta go. It's incredible. Yeah, I check 576 00:44:59.719 --> 00:45:07.000 it out. Favorite book, Ain Rand fountain Head. It's a little bit 577 00:45:07.000 --> 00:45:09.440 older again, but it's a really cool one. If I look, if 578 00:45:09.440 --> 00:45:13.719 I was gonna have to pick a newer one, and this is so weird 579 00:45:13.880 --> 00:45:16.320 for a guy who's like a like a finance guy. But I love the 580 00:45:16.440 --> 00:45:22.199 Sarah J. Moss fantasy books, throwing Glass or rosen Thorns like any of 581 00:45:22.239 --> 00:45:30.119 those those type I find fascinating, Like Doune anyhow, I gave you more 582 00:45:30.159 --> 00:45:35.440 than one. But and when you're not working at DeFi Technologies, what are 583 00:45:35.440 --> 00:45:40.320 you doing for fun? Working out? And I adore fishing. I just 584 00:45:40.320 --> 00:45:45.920 got back from a fishing trip. Nice Russell, pleasure chatting with you. 585 00:45:45.400 --> 00:45:51.760 Excited about the future updates around DeFi Technologies, I love the Bitcoin treasury strategy. 586 00:45:52.320 --> 00:45:53.599 We'll have to have you back on. Thank you so much for joining 587 00:45:53.599 --> 00:45:59.239 me, thank you very much for having us, love love doing this, 588 00:45:59.320 --> 00:46:00.119 and absolutely you would come back anytime.