1 00:00:04,080 --> 00:00:11,279 Welcome to Spycraft, a podcast that tells gripping life and death spy stories and 2 00:00:11,400 --> 00:00:17,120 the amazing devices and operations that made them possible. Now let's get started. 3 00:00:27,760 --> 00:00:30,920 Hey, welcome back everybody. Today, we have a great guest, Robert 4 00:00:31,000 --> 00:00:34,920 Bear ba R. We're gonna find out who he is. Well, who 5 00:00:34,960 --> 00:00:37,759 is he? He's the author of two New York Times bestsellers, Sleeping with 6 00:00:37,799 --> 00:00:41,439 the Devil, about the Saudi royal family and his relationship with the United States, 7 00:00:41,759 --> 00:00:45,840 and See No Evil, which recounts Bear's years as top CI operatives. 8 00:00:46,000 --> 00:00:48,759 You know, Evil is the basis for the acclaimed film Syriana. It's a 9 00:00:48,759 --> 00:00:51,799 great movie, actually, but you're in George Clinte and Oscar for his portrayal 10 00:00:51,799 --> 00:00:55,719 of Bear. Bear writes regularly for Time dot Com and has contributed to Vanity 11 00:00:55,759 --> 00:00:58,600 Fair, The Wall Street Journal, Washington Post, and he's considered one of 12 00:00:58,640 --> 00:01:02,200 the world's foremost authority in the Middle East. So what are we talking to 13 00:01:02,280 --> 00:01:04,000 him about today? Well, his brand new book, The Fourth Man, 14 00:01:04,159 --> 00:01:08,000 The Hunt for a KGB Spy at the Top of the Cia and the Rise 15 00:01:08,239 --> 00:01:12,120 of Putin's Russia. This is a fascinating read, folks. I highly recommend 16 00:01:12,159 --> 00:01:15,519 it if you're into spy novels, great stuff. Actually not a novel, 17 00:01:15,840 --> 00:01:19,359 it's a spy book if you're great, if you'll into those books, I 18 00:01:19,439 --> 00:01:22,599 highly recommend it. The Fourth Man, the Hunt for a KGB spy at 19 00:01:22,640 --> 00:01:25,439 the top of the CIA, and the rise of Putin's Russia. Before a 20 00:01:25,439 --> 00:01:27,400 good start, you don't what to do? Share, subscribe, hit that 21 00:01:27,519 --> 00:01:30,920 like button. You know we like it. Let's not waste any more time 22 00:01:30,920 --> 00:01:34,599 and welcome to the show, mister Robert Bare Welcome sir, Thanks joy being 23 00:01:34,599 --> 00:01:38,560 here. This is great, Thank you so much for the opportunity. It's 24 00:01:38,599 --> 00:01:42,480 a fascinating read. As we talked before the show, and we'll get to 25 00:01:42,519 --> 00:01:47,319 that later. There's a lot of mystery around this one. Well let me 26 00:01:47,319 --> 00:01:49,280 ask you this first things first, what motivated you to write this book? 27 00:01:51,400 --> 00:01:56,200 Well, it's the people who investigated The Fourth Man came to me and said, 28 00:01:56,239 --> 00:01:59,840 here's the story. When I was in the CIA, I'd never heard 29 00:01:59,840 --> 00:02:05,159 anything about this. I knew that there was paranoia about Russian intelligence having sources, 30 00:02:05,159 --> 00:02:08,759 but other than that, I knew zero about it. So I approaching 31 00:02:08,800 --> 00:02:12,719 this as a reporter. You know when your former boss comes to you, 32 00:02:13,319 --> 00:02:17,639 to the investigators, a bunch of x FBI guys come to me and say, 33 00:02:17,719 --> 00:02:22,120 yeah, there was a fourth man, no doubt about it. And 34 00:02:22,400 --> 00:02:27,639 he did more damage, probably we guess, than any spy in American history. 35 00:02:28,080 --> 00:02:31,800 So with that kind of introduction to the story, how could I not 36 00:02:31,960 --> 00:02:36,599 be obsessed by it? And I am obsessed by it until today. And 37 00:02:36,719 --> 00:02:42,280 I started writing this down, and I went to everybody I could get to 38 00:02:42,280 --> 00:02:47,039 to ask him their opinion. I went to James Clapper, former DNI, 39 00:02:47,080 --> 00:02:52,960 I went to the former CIA director Hayden and write down the line. Even 40 00:02:53,039 --> 00:02:58,240 Gina Haspell, and they all had a piece of the story. Most were 41 00:02:59,000 --> 00:03:04,039 could not would used to give me the whole story, but they confirmed what 42 00:03:04,120 --> 00:03:08,719 the investigators had told me. And so I build this narrative. And as 43 00:03:08,759 --> 00:03:13,039 a journalist kind of approaching this story, I mean I have a knowledge about 44 00:03:13,039 --> 00:03:16,520 the CIA, betas a journalist approaching it, I had to put down all 45 00:03:16,599 --> 00:03:23,800 of the objections, every single bit I could. And then on top of 46 00:03:23,840 --> 00:03:25,759 that, I had to make it a thriller. So what I give you 47 00:03:25,800 --> 00:03:31,840 at the beginning of the book is basically, here are the suspects, and 48 00:03:31,919 --> 00:03:37,039 by the end of the book, I leave it up to the reader to 49 00:03:37,159 --> 00:03:40,599 judge the evidence and who the fourth man is. That's crazy because you start 50 00:03:40,680 --> 00:03:45,080 over in nineteen and ninety two. I think I believe in your book to 51 00:03:45,159 --> 00:03:46,680 start a mascow on Moscow. But before we get to that real quickly, 52 00:03:46,719 --> 00:03:49,719 you know what, I didn't get your background. How long were you in 53 00:03:49,759 --> 00:03:53,439 the CIA and were you were in operative or what was your rule? Yeah? 54 00:03:53,439 --> 00:03:57,000 I was in twenty one years. I was in operations the whole time, 55 00:03:57,719 --> 00:04:01,520 and I resigned in December ninety seven. I was assigned mostly overseas. 56 00:04:03,599 --> 00:04:09,960 I hated Washington, hated being asside to headquarters. Anytime I could, I 57 00:04:10,000 --> 00:04:15,079 would just go overseas. And then in ninety five I was involved in an 58 00:04:15,079 --> 00:04:20,560 aborted Kuda talk against Saddam Hussein. I was brought back to the United States 59 00:04:20,639 --> 00:04:28,279 investigated by the FBI for attempted murder and murder. And so you know, 60 00:04:28,959 --> 00:04:31,480 when your employers starts thinking about trying to put you in jail, isn't it 61 00:04:31,519 --> 00:04:36,680 time to move on? Although I wish I had assassinated Saddam Hussein, it 62 00:04:36,680 --> 00:04:40,959 would have saved It was a lot of a lot of lives, both Iraqi 63 00:04:41,000 --> 00:04:46,839 and American, and a lot of money. Oh Man that's a heck of 64 00:04:46,879 --> 00:04:50,199 a mess you're in there. Well, yeah, it's you know, I 65 00:04:50,240 --> 00:04:55,519 sort of knew that the FBI wasn't. They were very reluctant to investigate this 66 00:04:55,600 --> 00:05:00,319 as it was ordered from the top, from the White House. And you 67 00:05:00,360 --> 00:05:01,759 know, it's like the FBI agents were great. We just said, this 68 00:05:01,839 --> 00:05:05,000 is really stupid. You know, when you went to a rack when you 69 00:05:05,000 --> 00:05:11,040 were chief a station there, you had a lethal finding, which basically as 70 00:05:11,040 --> 00:05:13,160 you can kill anybody you want to. So I said, yeah, the 71 00:05:13,240 --> 00:05:16,399 lethal finding. I told Washington what I was doing, the whole thing. 72 00:05:16,480 --> 00:05:23,759 So they thought it was nonsense too. Well, I guess what leads into 73 00:05:23,800 --> 00:05:26,680 this book. Now, in Moscow in nineteen ninety two, you start off 74 00:05:26,720 --> 00:05:30,800 with the problem was how to find a KGB operative in Moscow who didn't want 75 00:05:30,800 --> 00:05:32,639 to be found in it something Musdom don't want to be found. But he 76 00:05:32,800 --> 00:05:36,720 made it very problematic, or she whoever it is, made it extremely problematic. 77 00:05:38,480 --> 00:05:41,680 What did you think about it and you started getting information? Did you 78 00:05:41,720 --> 00:05:46,399 think this is like a ghost, this is made up? Or did it 79 00:05:46,399 --> 00:05:48,759 only start feeling like it was there? Well, what happened was there's this 80 00:05:49,160 --> 00:05:55,600 there's this Russian counter intelligence officer who was a little bit lippy. He would 81 00:05:55,639 --> 00:06:00,319 sit down with CIA people and give him hints about This goes back to nineteen 82 00:06:00,360 --> 00:06:04,800 eighty eight. We give him hints about Russian moles in the CIA and the 83 00:06:04,839 --> 00:06:09,600 FBI. He came up with names for these guys. He says, Yeah, 84 00:06:09,759 --> 00:06:13,639 we're running this great source, and the FBI in an even better one 85 00:06:13,680 --> 00:06:16,040 in the CIA. And he knew about these because he was he was a 86 00:06:16,079 --> 00:06:24,240 connector and knew about these. And so once the FBI decided that there was 87 00:06:24,240 --> 00:06:29,160 a spy inside the CIA, I was convinced of it. They went to 88 00:06:29,240 --> 00:06:32,839 the CIA was to get a hold of this Russian and get the full story. 89 00:06:33,000 --> 00:06:35,240 We didn't know how to get a hold of him. He was he 90 00:06:35,279 --> 00:06:43,040 had been reassigned back to Moscow, had no idea where to find him, 91 00:06:43,120 --> 00:06:47,519 nothing. And then one day we're having a liaison meeting between the CIA and 92 00:06:47,600 --> 00:06:54,560 Russian intelligence in Moscow and who shows up as a translator the same guy. 93 00:06:54,680 --> 00:07:00,399 So the trick is how to get him away from his colleagues and what do 94 00:07:00,399 --> 00:07:01,920 you mean there's a mole inside the CIA? Who is this guy? What 95 00:07:01,959 --> 00:07:08,680 do you know about him? So eventually in ninety three we just take all 96 00:07:08,720 --> 00:07:13,600 of our liaison contexts between the Russians and the Americans that bring them to Washington 97 00:07:13,800 --> 00:07:18,000 and then to Greenbrier and West Virginia, which is a hoteler. And one 98 00:07:18,120 --> 00:07:21,439 day the Russian goes fishing with one of our guys, is a great officer, 99 00:07:23,240 --> 00:07:30,120 and said, hey, your mole is flying to Caracas to meet his 100 00:07:30,240 --> 00:07:39,600 Russian handler. So with that piece of information, the FBI scrambled and figured 101 00:07:39,639 --> 00:07:45,199 out that it was Rick Aines, the notorious mole who without informing anybody, 102 00:07:45,240 --> 00:07:51,120 flies to Caracas. It coincides with the information about his handler, Uri Kretkin. 103 00:07:53,560 --> 00:07:56,959 The FBI gets a full FISA, they get break in authority, all 104 00:07:57,000 --> 00:07:59,279 the rest of it, and they proved the case. So, in other 105 00:07:59,319 --> 00:08:05,120 words, this russ who was known as Max, broke the biggest counter intelligence 106 00:08:05,319 --> 00:08:09,319 case in American history. I mean he broke it. It was a guy, 107 00:08:09,720 --> 00:08:13,720 you know, one specific guy. So his credibility goes way up, 108 00:08:15,600 --> 00:08:20,240 and that's fine, you know, and he talks about the FBI guy, 109 00:08:20,240 --> 00:08:24,279 but he can't really help to figure out who this guy is. And it 110 00:08:24,439 --> 00:08:26,560 turned out it would turn out to be Bob Hanson. In two thousand and 111 00:08:26,639 --> 00:08:33,559 one, the FBI agent but what intrigued the CIA was, guess what, 112 00:08:33,799 --> 00:08:39,759 there's another Russian mole inside the CIA, only much higher ranking and better placed. 113 00:08:41,320 --> 00:08:46,799 So this kicks off a huge investigation which has never been reported about ever 114 00:08:46,399 --> 00:08:56,679 inside the CIA. And that's sort of the beginning of this story, which 115 00:08:56,720 --> 00:09:03,200 goes on until today. As of a couple of weeks ago, the FBI 116 00:09:03,639 --> 00:09:09,399 was knocking on the doors of my sources, not in a hostile way, 117 00:09:09,799 --> 00:09:13,039 but they've been going around and saying, hey, is there anything we missed 118 00:09:13,320 --> 00:09:18,840 in our investigation of the Fourth Man? And everybody's very helpful. This is 119 00:09:18,879 --> 00:09:22,720 all very congenial, which I should add at this point that this book, 120 00:09:22,799 --> 00:09:28,360 the material I write about, was submitted to both the CIA and the FBI. 121 00:09:28,960 --> 00:09:33,840 The CIA asked for a couple of deletions, which I said, fine, 122 00:09:33,240 --> 00:09:37,759 it doesn't affect the narrative. Specifics like the names of the handlers of 123 00:09:37,840 --> 00:09:41,200 the Fourth Man. I have those, and they said, please don't put 124 00:09:41,200 --> 00:09:46,360 that in the book. We don't want the Russians to know we have them. 125 00:09:46,399 --> 00:09:50,519 I wouldn't say the FBI or the CIA are happy about this book, 126 00:09:52,679 --> 00:09:56,639 but they played ball with me in that sense, and I, you know, 127 00:09:56,440 --> 00:10:01,639 we don't talk anymore. And it's just it's out there. But anyhow, 128 00:10:01,799 --> 00:10:07,360 that's that's the that's the heart of the story. And my big question 129 00:10:07,559 --> 00:10:16,799 is the FBI conducts espionage investigations all the time. And what happens is they 130 00:10:16,960 --> 00:10:24,159 suspect uspy, they open an investigations called O N open and approved ninety days. 131 00:10:24,159 --> 00:10:28,159 They've got to go back and tell her supervisor why this investigation needs to 132 00:10:28,159 --> 00:10:33,360 remain open, and they have to provide what new evidence they have. My 133 00:10:33,519 --> 00:10:37,279 question is, and the great mystery is why has this investigation gone on for 134 00:10:37,320 --> 00:10:45,039 more than twenty five years? Twenty five years that's a long time. And 135 00:10:45,200 --> 00:10:48,320 come on, you know, CIA people say, oh, the FBI hates 136 00:10:48,360 --> 00:10:52,480 the CIA, you know this and that, and they, you know, 137 00:10:52,559 --> 00:10:56,480 for whatever reason, it's it's a rivalry. But come on, the FBI 138 00:10:56,600 --> 00:11:03,960 does not investigate something like this for twenty five years unless they truly believe that 139 00:11:05,039 --> 00:11:11,919 they've got something. Who knows how old that guy is mine hour Dowie. 140 00:11:13,759 --> 00:11:16,519 Yeah, he's still alive. If it were just dead, they just let 141 00:11:16,519 --> 00:11:24,720 this thing die. He's way past retirement. But and here's the interesting part 142 00:11:24,720 --> 00:11:30,000 of the story is, and I've pieced this together, there were a couple 143 00:11:30,159 --> 00:11:37,320 Russian defectors who come out of Russia and describe the Fourth Man. One of 144 00:11:37,360 --> 00:11:43,519 them was famous. His name was Chercussion and he was head of counterintelligence and 145 00:11:43,679 --> 00:11:48,960 was the first guy to run Aims and Hansen. Wow. So he comes 146 00:11:48,960 --> 00:11:54,200 out and talks about the fourth Man. Multiple other defectors have come out and 147 00:11:54,240 --> 00:12:01,120 said he's the best agent that the KGB has ever had. This waste been 148 00:12:01,200 --> 00:12:05,960 described and wa anyhow, I mean, you know, let's go back to 149 00:12:05,000 --> 00:12:09,000 the beginning. Why am I fascinated by this story by Russian operations? But 150 00:12:09,200 --> 00:12:18,120 this is definitely Lakare but on viagra and it's all real. Yeah, it's 151 00:12:18,159 --> 00:12:22,240 really an amazing story. Did a great job of writing about it and taking 152 00:12:22,240 --> 00:12:26,360 a step by a step on the interactions with the individuals and what they said. 153 00:12:26,039 --> 00:12:30,320 But listening to you now as well, talking about kind of the behind 154 00:12:30,360 --> 00:12:31,960 the scenes. Look, this is always a tough part about having author's onto 155 00:12:33,000 --> 00:12:35,759 the shows. You don't want to give up too much so people can read 156 00:12:35,799 --> 00:12:37,120 the book and get it. But your's just the tip of the iceberg. 157 00:12:37,240 --> 00:12:41,720 I think you could give too much. Yeah, and all my sources agreed, 158 00:12:43,399 --> 00:12:46,639 by the way, because they're in effect whistleblowers. They conducted the investigation. 159 00:12:46,759 --> 00:12:50,080 It doesn't matter whether they're right or wrong, but they conducted the investigation. 160 00:12:52,120 --> 00:12:56,240 I state their conclusions. I state the evidence they could give me. 161 00:12:56,279 --> 00:12:58,679 They couldn't give me all the evidence. Did you ever feel like he got 162 00:12:58,720 --> 00:13:03,679 really close? Like, man, I'm getting close to this skyre not not 163 00:13:03,799 --> 00:13:07,279 really? Or well, I'm close to it. You know when the FBI. 164 00:13:07,559 --> 00:13:11,879 I live in the middle of nowhere in the of Colorado. When the 165 00:13:11,919 --> 00:13:16,600 FBI shows up in one spring morning and asks if I know anything that they 166 00:13:16,639 --> 00:13:22,519 don't, I don't think I did. It's serious. So I think the 167 00:13:22,559 --> 00:13:28,200 FBI is close, but they simply don't have the hard evidence to bring to 168 00:13:28,279 --> 00:13:33,000 a court. The rule of the FBI is, you do not take an 169 00:13:33,080 --> 00:13:37,360 espionage case unless one hundred percent certainty of conviction. And you know what that 170 00:13:37,399 --> 00:13:43,600 means. You've got to photograph the spy with this Russian handle, you've got 171 00:13:43,600 --> 00:13:46,720 this dead drop or anything. You just got to see that happen, or 172 00:13:46,720 --> 00:13:50,480 put him in the same city, or you have to show Russian money showing 173 00:13:50,559 --> 00:13:56,679 up in this account. Now, the FBI believes that this guy was out 174 00:13:56,759 --> 00:14:01,200 for revenge. His career took a bad turn to see Ia. He wanted 175 00:14:01,240 --> 00:14:07,919 to show the CIA that he could outplay them and outplay the FBI, and 176 00:14:07,919 --> 00:14:13,000 that was really his intent. And as far as I can see, he's 177 00:14:13,000 --> 00:14:16,799 going to get away with it. When when the FBI is up against somebody 178 00:14:16,799 --> 00:14:22,320 who doesn't take money, it doesn't pass documents that can be traced. They 179 00:14:22,720 --> 00:14:28,559 this is there's not much they can do about. This is a story about 180 00:14:28,559 --> 00:14:33,159 the skill of the fourth man, not the skills of the FBI or the 181 00:14:33,159 --> 00:14:35,919 CIA. Do you think technologies helped him a lot more? Is it made 182 00:14:35,919 --> 00:14:39,519 it easier or harder? You would know more than I would have in regards 183 00:14:39,519 --> 00:14:45,720 to being able to maintain clandestine kind of operations going, Well, he would 184 00:14:45,960 --> 00:14:52,720 you hide it in the open so the FBI can track travel. But if 185 00:14:52,759 --> 00:14:58,159 you're going to meet your handlers on Europe on CIA orders, what can they 186 00:14:58,200 --> 00:15:03,360 prove nothing? Because so what he would do is a range of trip, 187 00:15:03,480 --> 00:15:09,399 like to go to Paris or London, meet his handlers, say what areas 188 00:15:09,440 --> 00:15:11,679 and then come back And all the FBI has says, yeah, he was 189 00:15:11,720 --> 00:15:18,000 an official trip. And if you don't take money from the Russians or cash 190 00:15:18,279 --> 00:15:22,360 or there's no calls to Moscow course, and there's no cell phone records, 191 00:15:22,440 --> 00:15:26,519 there's nothing, nothing, nothing, nothing. And the guy, the fourth 192 00:15:26,559 --> 00:15:30,320 man, knew what he was doing. And do you do we have any 193 00:15:30,360 --> 00:15:35,559 idea of what has been given up or anything that the fourth man possibly has 194 00:15:35,600 --> 00:15:46,080 already feel well, one guy that that agrees that he exists ran Russian operations 195 00:15:46,080 --> 00:15:48,159 to the CIA. He's very leery about talking to me. By the way, 196 00:15:48,159 --> 00:15:52,559 this book's not made me popular with my ex colleagues. You imagine that 197 00:15:56,360 --> 00:16:00,000 he said, for instance, he gave up transcripts of conversation between yelts and 198 00:16:00,039 --> 00:16:07,159 Clinton. And what happened then was the FSB that's Russian Internal Intelligence, which 199 00:16:07,279 --> 00:16:11,639 was headed by Putin at the time, goes into Yelton with these transcripts and 200 00:16:11,679 --> 00:16:17,200 says Boris, comrade, Boris, my friend. We know exactly what you're 201 00:16:17,240 --> 00:16:21,279 talking to Clinton about, and we're just here to protect you, so be 202 00:16:21,399 --> 00:16:26,120 careful. So this scares the Bejesus out of Yeltson he stops talking to Clinton. 203 00:16:26,279 --> 00:16:30,799 At this point. There's a year before Putin comes to power. So 204 00:16:30,200 --> 00:16:37,240 the suspicion is that Putin and the fourth Man contributed to Putin's appointment as Prime 205 00:16:37,240 --> 00:16:41,519 minister, and then president, that's the kind of things. And the Fourth 206 00:16:41,559 --> 00:16:51,039 Man had all sorts of access to military secrets. So if you're like anti 207 00:16:51,279 --> 00:16:56,559 aircraft missiles, so if the Russians knew what we had, then they could 208 00:16:56,600 --> 00:17:06,240 redesign their weaponry. What people are looking at here is the access the guy 209 00:17:06,319 --> 00:17:11,960 had, excuse me, and what he could possibly give up, as opposed 210 00:17:11,000 --> 00:17:18,319 to knowing for certain because as I understand, as people have told me, 211 00:17:18,400 --> 00:17:22,119 there was no file on the Fourth Man in Moscow. This is how important 212 00:17:22,200 --> 00:17:25,400 he was. There was no file for the Russian for somebody able to go 213 00:17:25,440 --> 00:17:30,240 look at. He was simply run off what the FSB Russian internal intelligence calls 214 00:17:30,279 --> 00:17:34,799 a postcard, and it just had his code name on the postcard and the 215 00:17:34,880 --> 00:17:42,200 names of his handlers. So you know, the Russians, if they have 216 00:17:42,319 --> 00:17:48,799 a very good agent, they know how to run him. They know how 217 00:17:51,880 --> 00:17:56,200 that you avoid a place, a meeting place like in Washington. You never 218 00:17:56,240 --> 00:18:00,440 go there because the FBI could follow you to a meeting the same way London. 219 00:18:00,160 --> 00:18:06,440 Vienna is safer because the Austrians don't much care and they're so penetrated by 220 00:18:06,440 --> 00:18:10,839 the Russians anyhow. Oh, really, you know the Austrians don't if you 221 00:18:10,839 --> 00:18:14,119 can aspy for the Russians, don't. Don't you know do it in Vienna? 222 00:18:15,079 --> 00:18:22,279 There's so many they've always been ambivalent about, you know, being part 223 00:18:22,319 --> 00:18:26,880 of Nate, you know, part of the Western Alliance. Interesting, So 224 00:18:27,400 --> 00:18:33,559 let me ask you this. Now you've written other books, of course, 225 00:18:33,160 --> 00:18:37,680 is this have you ever dabbled before and trying to look at spies and how 226 00:18:37,759 --> 00:18:41,039 they operate? And I guess what I'm trying to look for, is there, 227 00:18:41,759 --> 00:18:47,839 how does this fourth man compare to anybody else that you've seen in the 228 00:18:47,880 --> 00:18:51,960 past? Aldrich, Ames, Robert Hansen. Obviously they all got caught and 229 00:18:52,039 --> 00:18:53,720 this guy seems to be a But if it's a guy, I don't assume 230 00:18:53,720 --> 00:18:56,640 that either. Who knows what it is? But is it making? Have 231 00:18:57,119 --> 00:19:03,000 you seen anything that really stood out beside obviously his anonymity? Well, the 232 00:19:03,039 --> 00:19:07,640 thing that stood out to me and I had to ask this question of people 233 00:19:07,880 --> 00:19:14,240 who really know what they're talking about? FBI agents, CIA people. He 234 00:19:14,359 --> 00:19:19,319 was run by what's called the Second Chief Directorate, and the second Chief Directorate 235 00:19:19,359 --> 00:19:26,039 was counterintelligence, the old KGB, So they just operated internally the very they're 236 00:19:26,119 --> 00:19:34,359 starting. Okay, good, that was the dog's warning me. The FBI's 237 00:19:34,400 --> 00:19:38,599 outside getting ready to close us down, right, I'm sure they tap in 238 00:19:38,640 --> 00:19:45,440 this right now. Yeah. So he was run by this internal service which 239 00:19:45,480 --> 00:19:49,759 was paranoid, and the people never defected. So if you're if you know 240 00:19:49,799 --> 00:19:52,680 what you're doing, the last thing you want to do is walk into a 241 00:19:52,759 --> 00:19:59,640 Russian embassy and ask for the Foreign Intelligence Service, because it's completely penetrated. 242 00:20:00,200 --> 00:20:03,519 They have a lot of defectors. They're unreliable, they've been living the high 243 00:20:03,519 --> 00:20:10,839 life in Europe or Washington. And you don't go to them, You go 244 00:20:10,920 --> 00:20:15,400 to the Second Chief Director. You make contact with them. And so Russia 245 00:20:15,480 --> 00:20:21,160 is divided into these two services, and one is much more reliable than the 246 00:20:21,200 --> 00:20:26,880 others. And that's the best guess of what happened. And that's what the 247 00:20:26,920 --> 00:20:32,079 defectors said to come out, is that he was run by the Second Chief 248 00:20:32,119 --> 00:20:38,400 Directorate. And that's why the FBI has never been able to get a smoking 249 00:20:38,440 --> 00:20:41,759 gun on them. No defectors come out and say, oh, yeah, 250 00:20:41,759 --> 00:20:42,759 I know about this guy in Washington. He did this and did that. 251 00:20:45,359 --> 00:20:49,799 Now, consider we're talking the fourth man. Have any of the other individuals 252 00:20:49,799 --> 00:20:56,599 one two three provided any clues to this fourth man? Well, the first, 253 00:20:56,680 --> 00:21:03,519 the stories based on the Edward Lee Howard who fled to the USSR back 254 00:21:03,559 --> 00:21:08,680 in the early eighties. And then Aims is presumably the second man because he 255 00:21:08,720 --> 00:21:15,279 gets arrested in ninety four and Bob Hansen, the FBI agent, is arrested 256 00:21:15,319 --> 00:21:19,880 in two thousand and one. They knew nothing about the fourth man. It 257 00:21:19,920 --> 00:21:27,960 wasn't like they met or the Russians are very compartmented, and they simply, 258 00:21:29,839 --> 00:21:33,519 I mean by the way that Russians are just have flipped out about this book. 259 00:21:33,440 --> 00:21:37,880 Really they're not happy about it. Well, what they're really unhappy about 260 00:21:37,920 --> 00:21:44,279 it is Russian intelligence guys who have defected here tell me is that the possibility 261 00:21:44,400 --> 00:21:49,519 that the Russians gave up Aims and another and another agent in order to protect 262 00:21:49,519 --> 00:21:53,319 the fourth man. They hate the idea that anybody would put it out there 263 00:21:53,359 --> 00:21:59,680 that they would sacrifice an agent to protect another one. And so you see 264 00:21:59,720 --> 00:22:02,559 that, you see it. You know these reviews, I'm sure you don't 265 00:22:02,599 --> 00:22:07,799 read them like an RT which is which is a Russian intelligence outlet run by 266 00:22:07,799 --> 00:22:11,359 the Russian government. They're just apoplectic. I mean, I'd like to tell 267 00:22:11,400 --> 00:22:14,119 the Russians the best way to deal with the book you don't like is just 268 00:22:14,200 --> 00:22:18,119 ignore it. But it was, it was it was too much for the 269 00:22:18,200 --> 00:22:21,440 Russians. Yeah, haven't made a whole lot of friends anywhere. No, 270 00:22:21,559 --> 00:22:25,480 I don't make itwhere. No. If you ever walk with me in the 271 00:22:25,599 --> 00:22:30,680 in the we start taking incoming rounds. It could be from anybody. You 272 00:22:30,759 --> 00:22:37,960 have a rare talent. Yes, I work at it. You've managed to 273 00:22:37,039 --> 00:22:42,519 piss off all for espnages. I'm assuming nobody else is involved here. It's 274 00:22:42,519 --> 00:22:45,519 just Russians here. So we don't have anything coming up with China or any 275 00:22:45,559 --> 00:22:51,160 other countries doing any you know, China. I ran China cases and in 276 00:22:51,200 --> 00:22:55,119 the CIA, but they're just don't. I'm so out of it that I 277 00:22:55,160 --> 00:22:59,640 would have nothing to contribute. Plus, no one's ever come to me and 278 00:22:59,640 --> 00:23:00,920 said, hey, why don't you deal with the Chinese what they're doing in 279 00:23:00,960 --> 00:23:06,480 this country. I'm sure it's a fascinating story. But the Middle East and 280 00:23:06,599 --> 00:23:10,200 Russia is about, you know, as far as I can go. Now. 281 00:23:10,279 --> 00:23:14,799 Speaking to other CIA officers usually hear that Russia's probably the best of all 282 00:23:14,839 --> 00:23:18,559 of them in regards to spies. What do you think about that? Well, 283 00:23:18,599 --> 00:23:26,960 they have a different approach. They yeah, they recruited a lot of 284 00:23:27,000 --> 00:23:32,240 people, and they use you know, honey trap operations with men or boys 285 00:23:32,359 --> 00:23:36,640 or whatever. That's that's sort of tried and true for them. The Chinese 286 00:23:36,759 --> 00:23:41,680 use family, so it's it's called the long tail. So if if somebody 287 00:23:41,720 --> 00:23:48,480 has Chinese relatives in the United States and back in China, they can put 288 00:23:48,480 --> 00:23:56,200 pressure on the Chinese family in China and enforce these recruitments. And I think 289 00:23:56,440 --> 00:24:00,359 I think the Chinese are very good at that. So it's it's very And 290 00:24:00,480 --> 00:24:06,319 is the Russians. The Russian mob for instance, in the United States, 291 00:24:06,359 --> 00:24:11,559 which is everywhere Miami, Los Angeles, New York, I don't I've never 292 00:24:11,599 --> 00:24:15,839 heard of them going out and recruiting people. And the problem is that the 293 00:24:15,920 --> 00:24:21,759 Russians is there. They run hot and cold. Remember the ten Russians that 294 00:24:21,799 --> 00:24:26,559 were arrested and traded. I mean that was just sort of all silly. 295 00:24:26,759 --> 00:24:30,119 It was it was called director, it asked. They didn't do anything important. 296 00:24:32,680 --> 00:24:37,599 But that doesn't mean that there aren't islands of excellence and Russian intelligence that 297 00:24:37,720 --> 00:24:42,359 know what they're doing. Now, Clearly the Russians intelligence guys who convinced Putin 298 00:24:42,400 --> 00:24:47,240 and be fined to and you know, take Kiev in seventy two hours didn't 299 00:24:47,240 --> 00:24:51,519 do all that well. But you know, at the same time, a 300 00:24:51,640 --> 00:24:56,039 lot of this Russian weaponry that we keep on picking up in Ukraine, it's 301 00:24:56,039 --> 00:25:00,680 got an American technology and they're good at that. They steal it and they 302 00:25:00,720 --> 00:25:06,880 put in their own weapons and they're hypersonic missiles and the rest of it are 303 00:25:07,240 --> 00:25:10,839 based on American technology. So yeah, they are good, sometimes very good. 304 00:25:11,119 --> 00:25:15,119 In regards to the changing of the guards there, as we saw yelled 305 00:25:15,119 --> 00:25:19,880 sense of Putin. Did that change the dynamic at all when you were investigating 306 00:25:19,920 --> 00:25:23,039 this, did it change did it make it more difficult, to make it 307 00:25:23,079 --> 00:25:27,279 easier? Anything? At all? The change it made it much more difficult. 308 00:25:29,680 --> 00:25:33,759 Because what you have to understand is Russia is run by a deep state. 309 00:25:33,200 --> 00:25:37,920 There is no deep state in this country, but there is in Russia. 310 00:25:38,119 --> 00:25:44,440 And Putin was the frontman for a bunch of KGB officers that call themselves 311 00:25:44,440 --> 00:25:52,240 statusts. We call them hardline. They oversaw his work in Saint Petersburg when 312 00:25:52,240 --> 00:25:57,960 he comes back, and then he gets promoted into the Kremlin, and then 313 00:25:59,039 --> 00:26:03,960 they promote him into the Prime ministership and then the presidency. And as we 314 00:26:04,000 --> 00:26:10,839 saw once he gets in. Every important job in Russia is a KGP guy, 315 00:26:11,119 --> 00:26:14,519 every single important one. All the oil industry and the rest of it. 316 00:26:14,880 --> 00:26:19,519 They're all KGB guys, all KGB arms, industry, everything, and 317 00:26:19,559 --> 00:26:23,799 they all go back to Saint Petersburg or even to Dresden when Putin was there. 318 00:26:25,039 --> 00:26:26,799 A lot of the key guys were with him in Dresden, you know, 319 00:26:26,960 --> 00:26:30,119 the guys. One of the guys doing the gas pipeline out of Russia 320 00:26:30,160 --> 00:26:41,640 into Germany was with him in Dresden. And so you know what we got 321 00:26:41,680 --> 00:26:45,240 with Russia is in nineteen ninety nine, I can and I based this on 322 00:26:45,519 --> 00:26:55,119 very good journalists and my former colleagues, and there's a census that Putin came 323 00:26:55,160 --> 00:27:00,680 to power thanks to a quiet kudata. So people ask, well, why 324 00:27:00,720 --> 00:27:06,160 do we care about the fourth man? Is because he assured we missed this 325 00:27:06,279 --> 00:27:10,359 coupe tap. I'm not saying we could have done anything about it, but 326 00:27:10,480 --> 00:27:15,319 we just simply missed it. It was in a sense of pearl harbor. 327 00:27:17,839 --> 00:27:21,759 So Putin accordion sounds like you're saying Putin's not really the one running the whole 328 00:27:21,799 --> 00:27:26,119 thing. There's a deep stick going on. I think he's running it now, 329 00:27:26,160 --> 00:27:30,200 but he's running with consensus of the status. I think they put him 330 00:27:30,200 --> 00:27:33,720 in power that he was along with the program, but as he became more 331 00:27:33,799 --> 00:27:38,200 powerful, I don't think anybody's going to take putin on today. So I 332 00:27:38,200 --> 00:27:41,519 mean he just he just grew into the job from his point of view. 333 00:27:42,039 --> 00:27:45,559 Now speaking on now we switched to our side. We have a lot of 334 00:27:45,599 --> 00:27:49,880 transitions in the head of CIA, head of FBI. We've seen that over 335 00:27:49,920 --> 00:27:53,440 the last well probably twelve years, We've seen a lot of changes there. 336 00:27:53,759 --> 00:27:57,720 Does that alter the investigation process too? You know the inside outs better than 337 00:27:57,759 --> 00:28:02,759 I do. Does that start putting little roadblocks or some people are not as 338 00:28:02,799 --> 00:28:07,440 interested in investigating other people's more interested in anything like that. Well with Alder 339 00:28:07,599 --> 00:28:12,680 James, the chief of the division, who should have investigated it, simply 340 00:28:12,759 --> 00:28:18,960 didn't. This went on for years and years where they with aims. We 341 00:28:18,079 --> 00:28:23,440 lost all of our Russian assets, all the important ones, most of them. 342 00:28:23,480 --> 00:28:27,480 And then I mean nobody, nobody really took it seriously. And the 343 00:28:27,519 --> 00:28:32,119 guy that was in command of the division, in charge of the Soviet Union, 344 00:28:32,680 --> 00:28:34,240 he was promoted, so it was there was no big deal. You 345 00:28:34,640 --> 00:28:41,640 know, who cares? And then by nineteen ninety one when Gorbachev during the 346 00:28:41,720 --> 00:28:45,960 coup, we decided to stop spying in Russia. Not just a fact. 347 00:28:47,519 --> 00:28:51,039 I know the people. I mean, I was in the field, got 348 00:28:51,079 --> 00:28:53,480 messages saying, hey, you can turn off your tail taps on the Russians, 349 00:28:55,119 --> 00:28:56,440 you can stop getting a follow We're not going to pay for it. 350 00:28:56,960 --> 00:29:03,000 Don't have any Russian Russian contacts we don't care about. And it was felt 351 00:29:03,039 --> 00:29:08,599 that Russia was in such bad shape that we didn't want to undermine the government 352 00:29:08,599 --> 00:29:15,599 by having a spy scandal or whatever. Wow, so quickly we've got all 353 00:29:15,640 --> 00:29:18,599 these years. I mean, people don't like to admit it. And it 354 00:29:18,680 --> 00:29:25,079 was a political decision, not just the CIA. That's a that's not gonna 355 00:29:25,119 --> 00:29:30,680 make you a lot of friends either. If I sent on invitations for a 356 00:29:30,720 --> 00:29:37,000 party, I don't think they would come. I guess in our last few 357 00:29:37,039 --> 00:29:40,400 of minutes together, it's really fascinating. And again I'm not trying to give 358 00:29:40,440 --> 00:29:44,039 everything away, folks telling you we're only touching the tip of the iceberg. 359 00:29:44,079 --> 00:29:47,039 It's called the Fourth Man, the hunt for a KGB spy at the top 360 00:29:47,079 --> 00:29:51,759 of the CIA. In the Rise of Putin's Russia, Robert baar Baer you 361 00:29:51,759 --> 00:29:56,559 can get on Amazon. It's really a fascinating read. Let me ask you 362 00:29:56,799 --> 00:30:00,640 this. Did you what stood out for you the most in this investigation. 363 00:30:00,759 --> 00:30:03,200 Let's say when you're looking through this, you're going on crap, what is 364 00:30:03,240 --> 00:30:07,400 that? Did you ever have one of those moments? I had it because 365 00:30:07,519 --> 00:30:12,880 when I was in the CIA, every time I had a case overseas or 366 00:30:14,079 --> 00:30:18,839 contacts, I had to put on a piece of paper, so if I 367 00:30:18,880 --> 00:30:22,799 met somebody in a bar it was of operational interest. First thing I did 368 00:30:22,880 --> 00:30:27,400 is I went back and I went into the station, wrote a cable guy's 369 00:30:27,440 --> 00:30:30,880 full name, everything I knew about him. It would come back a trace, 370 00:30:32,119 --> 00:30:33,160 what calls we don't know anything about this guy, or we'd know this 371 00:30:33,240 --> 00:30:37,839 about him. And it was all a matter of federal records. Everything was 372 00:30:37,880 --> 00:30:44,799 recorded when I was in a rack, everything I did I recorded and sent 373 00:30:44,920 --> 00:30:48,079 in in messages. I don't think people read them, but I recorded it. 374 00:30:48,599 --> 00:30:56,079 And what I found out from this counterintelligence investigation is that it was truly 375 00:30:56,119 --> 00:31:02,440 a wilderness of mirrors because nothing was written cable traffic or formal files or put 376 00:31:02,480 --> 00:31:07,799 on computers. Nothing. It was all done on easels. It was done 377 00:31:07,960 --> 00:31:14,440 on three by five cards, the whole thing. So it was fascinating that 378 00:31:14,920 --> 00:31:18,240 it's it's like a film, you know, it is like Tinker Taylor, 379 00:31:18,319 --> 00:31:25,319 Soldier Spy, but rather than George Smiley being the SpyCatcher, he's the mole 380 00:31:26,519 --> 00:31:30,759 and from a from a thick. You know, if you turn this into 381 00:31:30,000 --> 00:31:36,680 a drama, it would just be utterly fantastic. Yes, yes, Now 382 00:31:36,680 --> 00:31:41,160 do you think I guess this is a hard question to answer. You have 383 00:31:41,200 --> 00:31:44,400 to be Mistra Donna's for this, But do you think they'll actually catch them? 384 00:31:44,640 --> 00:31:47,440 Do you know why I'm on this program. I want to get it 385 00:31:47,480 --> 00:31:53,319 out as far and wide to Russians that there's millions and dollars involved. If 386 00:31:53,359 --> 00:31:59,839 somebody comes out with the evidence. I don't work for the government, but 387 00:31:59,839 --> 00:32:01,920 I would like to see him caught. And the only way to do that 388 00:32:02,079 --> 00:32:07,480 is have a Russian witness to the crime to come out. And that's where 389 00:32:07,480 --> 00:32:10,880 I stand. Man and tense stuff. Again. The book is called The 390 00:32:10,920 --> 00:32:14,880 Fourth Man, The Hunt for a KGB Spot at the top of the CIA 391 00:32:14,880 --> 00:32:19,400 and the Rise of Putin's Russia. You're gonna say something that, You're gonna 392 00:32:19,400 --> 00:32:24,000 say something else. No, that's it. Yeah, I guess what now. 393 00:32:24,079 --> 00:32:27,880 There's not really much else to say about that, right right this, 394 00:32:28,000 --> 00:32:32,200 right now. But you've already spoken to you. You're you've been spoken to 395 00:32:32,319 --> 00:32:37,319 me before the show. You've spoken to the current CIA n FBI heads right 396 00:32:37,640 --> 00:32:44,359 as well. I spoke to Gina Haspelly, and all she would say is 397 00:32:44,400 --> 00:32:50,960 that she'd been briefed on a hunt for another mole. She didn't give me 398 00:32:51,000 --> 00:32:54,200 a name, she didn't do anything like that. You just said, yeah, 399 00:32:54,200 --> 00:32:57,519 I've been briefed on this. But so that was all piece of this. 400 00:32:57,599 --> 00:33:00,119 That was a piece of the mosaic that I put together. You can 401 00:33:00,119 --> 00:33:04,599 probably read between the lines if you had to. Well, you can read 402 00:33:04,640 --> 00:33:07,720 between the lines too much and you go right off a cliff and your conclusions. 403 00:33:07,839 --> 00:33:12,960 But any of what I do in the book is just put all those 404 00:33:13,000 --> 00:33:20,960 doubts in the book, and what people say possibly change the narrative, even 405 00:33:21,000 --> 00:33:24,880 if it's just a partial answer. It's a fascinating book. I can't thank 406 00:33:24,920 --> 00:33:28,880 you enough for taking the opportunity to be with us and sharing the story with 407 00:33:29,000 --> 00:33:31,039 us. Yeah. No, I'm still obsessed, and if someone's got an 408 00:33:31,039 --> 00:33:36,799 answer for me, get in touch. I'm sure some people out there in 409 00:33:36,839 --> 00:33:39,359 the CIA are listening, and I do know from demographic checks, so we 410 00:33:39,400 --> 00:33:44,839 do have listeners in Russia and China, so I get the funny feeling they're 411 00:33:44,880 --> 00:33:49,519 listening as well. It's amazing how they find podcasts. But again, folks, 412 00:33:49,519 --> 00:33:51,599 one more time. The book is called The Fourth Man, The Hunt 413 00:33:51,640 --> 00:33:53,880 for a KGB Spot at the Top of the CIA and the Rise of Putin's 414 00:33:53,920 --> 00:33:58,599 Russia or Robert bear ba Er Robert, I guess my last question is do 415 00:33:58,640 --> 00:34:00,240 you have any other books coming up or is this going to be Oh no, 416 00:34:00,720 --> 00:34:06,200 I'm thinking of doing one in the thirty fourth California elections with Upton Sinclair 417 00:34:06,240 --> 00:34:08,320 and how it sort of changed politics, you know, fake news and the 418 00:34:08,320 --> 00:34:14,119 rest of it. But oh yeah, it's just just an idea. I'll 419 00:34:14,119 --> 00:34:16,320 be looking forward to that one as well. Thank you so much again for 420 00:34:16,719 --> 00:34:20,320 being with us, and thank you everyone for listening. Hey, make sure 421 00:34:20,360 --> 00:34:22,559 to share, subscribe to hit that like button. Go check out The Fourth 422 00:34:22,559 --> 00:34:25,519 Man, A Hunt for a KGB Spy at the Top of the CIA and 423 00:34:25,639 --> 00:34:28,360 the Rise of this Russia.