WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.200 --> 00:00:03.759 Hello, and welcome to this episode of Superhero Ethics. Today, we are 2 00:00:03.759 --> 00:00:06.879 coming to you during the strike, and so I am not going to be 3 00:00:06.919 --> 00:00:12.000 covering anything that's made or has been made by these Struck studios. But it 4 00:00:12.039 --> 00:00:15.880 turns out there's actually a whole bunch of other great media out there that we 5 00:00:15.960 --> 00:00:19.920 geeks love and want to talk about. Today we're talking about Discworld, the 6 00:00:20.120 --> 00:00:24.839 Terry Pratchett for a series of books that I believe goes to forty four novels 7 00:00:25.640 --> 00:00:29.920 that is very it's kind of hard to describe, and that's why we're doing 8 00:00:29.920 --> 00:00:33.039 a whole podcast about it. We're actually talking going to do multiple podcasts about 9 00:00:33.039 --> 00:00:37.600 Discworld, and today we're kind of do an introduction to Discworld and focus on 10 00:00:37.719 --> 00:00:41.560 the night Watch series of books. Whether you've read these or have no idea 11 00:00:41.560 --> 00:00:43.479 what I'm talking about, I think it's gonna be a lot here for you 12 00:00:43.520 --> 00:00:47.039 to enjoy. Don't worry about it all that more. With myself and Rob 13 00:00:47.159 --> 00:00:50.520 McKenzie. Right after this commercial break that I really hope is not from any 14 00:00:50.520 --> 00:01:00.200 of the Struck companies, Welcome back. This is Matthew, your host. 15 00:01:00.280 --> 00:01:04.640 I'm joined by frequent guests on both this and the Star Wars podcast Rob Mackenzie, 16 00:01:04.640 --> 00:01:07.879 who is waving, which you can't see because this is radio. But 17 00:01:08.519 --> 00:01:14.480 Rob, how are you doing? And what is Discworld doing? Pretty well? 18 00:01:14.879 --> 00:01:22.840 Discworld is it's a series of fantasy satire novels that which sounds like not 19 00:01:22.920 --> 00:01:26.000 a big deal. But Terry Pratchett is one of a very small number of 20 00:01:26.040 --> 00:01:34.000 people who has been knighted just for being a writer. He's until he passed 21 00:01:34.000 --> 00:01:37.640 away, he was the greatest living fantasy author. You said forty four. 22 00:01:38.159 --> 00:01:42.319 There's some disputing that there's forty one main Discworld books, but there's also a 23 00:01:42.359 --> 00:01:47.799 bunch of subsidiary I've got the streets of Discworld upstairs. I've got a handful 24 00:01:47.840 --> 00:01:51.560 of other random ones that have been board games and movies and a television show 25 00:01:51.599 --> 00:01:56.239 and Amazon show that we don't talk about because it's atrocious. Do not watch 26 00:01:56.599 --> 00:02:06.200 watch on Amazon. It's the worst. But the series covers a humongous scope 27 00:02:06.200 --> 00:02:10.319 of stuff. Terry Pratchett wanted to just have kind of a play space for 28 00:02:12.719 --> 00:02:15.479 being able to put whatever fantasy stuff he wanted in a big junk drawer, 29 00:02:15.039 --> 00:02:20.520 and so he stole the concept of the Discworld from History of a Flat Earth 30 00:02:20.599 --> 00:02:23.080 character in the back of elephants on the back of a giant turtle, and 31 00:02:23.120 --> 00:02:29.360 then he decided that continuity was for suckers, and so like, the timelines 32 00:02:29.439 --> 00:02:34.719 literally do not work in his books, is actually impossible for the time to 33 00:02:34.800 --> 00:02:37.840 all work out. And then because he was so tired of people telling him, 34 00:02:37.879 --> 00:02:40.080 well, you broke your own continuity and the timelines don't work out, 35 00:02:40.080 --> 00:02:45.680 he wrote the History Monks into Discworld, and the fact that history was shattered, 36 00:02:45.680 --> 00:02:49.759 the monks put it back together in order to cover up for the fact 37 00:02:49.800 --> 00:02:54.199 that time doesn't make any like continuity doesn't make any sense, because he just 38 00:02:54.360 --> 00:02:58.680 didn't want to deal with people. And I think that's important, especially as 39 00:02:58.680 --> 00:03:01.840 we're doing introduction, because that's not that's why we're not starting with Discworld Book 40 00:03:01.879 --> 00:03:06.400 one, because it really isn't such a thing. The Color of Magic was 41 00:03:06.439 --> 00:03:10.199 the first Discworld book published. But as you said, it is it is 42 00:03:10.400 --> 00:03:15.479 very accessible in that if you jump in in the middle of a series, 43 00:03:15.479 --> 00:03:17.199 you might have a little bit of difficulty, but even then it's pretty simple. 44 00:03:17.360 --> 00:03:23.599 Yeah, but most of the series are they're intertwined, and that they're 45 00:03:23.599 --> 00:03:27.039 constantly making references to things. So the more you know, the more you 46 00:03:27.120 --> 00:03:30.120 know, but they're all kind of standalone in some ways. As I watch 47 00:03:30.240 --> 00:03:35.319 like the MCU and DC and Star Wars try to do these interconnected universes or 48 00:03:35.400 --> 00:03:38.719 multi universes, I think Terry Pratchett in some way is a pretty good one 49 00:03:38.719 --> 00:03:40.840 to look for, in part because, as you said, they're not trying 50 00:03:40.879 --> 00:03:45.879 to do continuity and slightest and in a lot of way for those who've heard 51 00:03:45.919 --> 00:03:49.479 me rant about time travel, that's one thing I really like because they're not 52 00:03:49.479 --> 00:03:51.800 trying to make it all make logical sense. That's kind of the point, 53 00:03:52.159 --> 00:03:54.599 right, Well, in the world has its own kind of internal logic to 54 00:03:54.680 --> 00:04:00.120 it. But he's willing to He's willing to write con whatever any different at 55 00:04:00.120 --> 00:04:04.520 different time. He's willing to make things like disappear that he wrote about that 56 00:04:04.560 --> 00:04:09.759 he lineed him into a book and then they just don't come up and they 57 00:04:09.800 --> 00:04:15.360 get moved to somewhere else. He refused to draw a map for a long 58 00:04:15.439 --> 00:04:17.199 time. He refused to have a map, like that's the classic thing in 59 00:04:17.199 --> 00:04:19.519 a fantasy book. He opened up and there's a map inside the front cover, 60 00:04:19.680 --> 00:04:23.319 right, and he just wouldn't do it. He would have like drawings 61 00:04:23.360 --> 00:04:26.959 of the discworld, and he'd talk about the geography, but he was like, 62 00:04:27.000 --> 00:04:30.120 look, and that's going to restrict me. And also he's like he 63 00:04:30.120 --> 00:04:34.439 would have drawn the discworld with the line you can't map in imagination, and 64 00:04:34.480 --> 00:04:39.040 then people got deeply into it and we're like, but we really want to 65 00:04:39.120 --> 00:04:43.199 know kind of where all these things are geographically relative to each other. And 66 00:04:43.279 --> 00:04:47.920 so then he finally gave up and made a map, which so one of 67 00:04:47.920 --> 00:04:54.879 the things that a Babylon five was commented was like, they never gave speeds 68 00:04:55.040 --> 00:04:59.040 for the movement of ships, right, because then that would lock them in 69 00:04:59.079 --> 00:05:03.839 to to whatever. But the trade off in some things is if you explicitly 70 00:05:03.879 --> 00:05:11.000 map things out, that gives you ideas for for a continuity for stories, 71 00:05:11.079 --> 00:05:14.160 right, because if you know that these countries are neighbors, then you can 72 00:05:14.240 --> 00:05:17.800 have interactions with them as neighbors. And that does lock you in, but 73 00:05:17.879 --> 00:05:24.680 that's fine. That gives you a point of continuous tension right up. And 74 00:05:24.720 --> 00:05:27.680 so yeah, yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And I think 75 00:05:27.720 --> 00:05:31.720 that's one of things that's really appealing about the books, especially because and granted, 76 00:05:31.879 --> 00:05:34.879 as we've discussed before, I am not as big a fantasy person as 77 00:05:34.920 --> 00:05:38.600 you and some others who are in our friend group and have been on this 78 00:05:38.720 --> 00:05:44.079 podcast. And there are some fantasy works, especially some of the stuff by 79 00:05:44.279 --> 00:05:48.240 Grandon Sanderson, that I find very inaccessible because it's completely about a world for 80 00:05:48.319 --> 00:05:51.680 which I have no reference points. Yes, and one of the things that 81 00:05:51.720 --> 00:05:55.199 I really love about disc World, I think this is part of what puts 82 00:05:55.199 --> 00:06:00.160 it into the sort of parody, satire, humorousness of it is that on 83 00:06:00.279 --> 00:06:04.680 the one hand, this this this seems to be a kind of medieval world, 84 00:06:04.720 --> 00:06:09.920 and that you know that it is about like Truncheans, who are the 85 00:06:10.000 --> 00:06:14.319 very early days of gunpowder in terms of like, you know, whether guns 86 00:06:14.319 --> 00:06:15.959 do or don't exist, and that is a hotline. Actually have one of 87 00:06:15.959 --> 00:06:19.759 the night Watch books. You know, people want a king, there are 88 00:06:19.879 --> 00:06:27.240 dragons, and it's a lot of the things that are signposts of the medieval 89 00:06:27.279 --> 00:06:30.680 world, the fantasy adventure world, and you know, there's no electricity for 90 00:06:30.759 --> 00:06:34.079 the most part. Things like that, there's magic and get into that world. 91 00:06:34.120 --> 00:06:38.480 Then he puts an awful lot of modernness, you know. And so 92 00:06:38.560 --> 00:06:44.720 for example, every time there is a big public gathering in the streets of 93 00:06:45.000 --> 00:06:47.319 ka Moore Park, which is one of the big cities and where most of 94 00:06:47.319 --> 00:06:49.639 the stories, at least a lot of the stories that I've dealt with take 95 00:06:49.720 --> 00:06:55.600 place. You'll have a guy basically who's you know, a modern day vendor, 96 00:06:55.680 --> 00:06:58.800 like you know, walking around with his cart selling stuff. And that's 97 00:06:58.839 --> 00:07:00.319 probably not the best examp books. I think you did have those for a 98 00:07:00.360 --> 00:07:04.839 couple hundred years ago. But like there's just you know, there are the 99 00:07:04.920 --> 00:07:10.120 equivalent of organizers, you know, the if you think about like early BlackBerry 100 00:07:10.160 --> 00:07:13.720 type things that are just they have a devil, a little demon inside them 101 00:07:13.720 --> 00:07:16.439 instead of like electronics, and there's all kinds of stuff like that in terms 102 00:07:16.480 --> 00:07:20.199 of the way they get paid and things like that. They're basically using magic 103 00:07:20.399 --> 00:07:25.360 or fantasy to put the things that are in our own world back into the 104 00:07:25.399 --> 00:07:29.240 medieval world. Well yeah, and what he's doing is he's using he's using 105 00:07:29.279 --> 00:07:32.399 the fantasy setting to provide some like distance in your head, right of like 106 00:07:32.519 --> 00:07:36.319 what of the stuff that you do that that seems absolutely normal to you, 107 00:07:36.639 --> 00:07:41.480 what happens when you transpose it into a world where people will behave like people, 108 00:07:41.519 --> 00:07:43.839 right, they did make self interested decisions, they do the things that 109 00:07:43.879 --> 00:07:49.600 they do, and you transpose in something like like the world getting smaller. 110 00:07:49.839 --> 00:07:55.480 Right. The one of the big themes in later watch books is and in 111 00:07:56.040 --> 00:07:59.600 specifically in making money or not making money going postal, which is the first 112 00:07:59.680 --> 00:08:03.399 voice the pickbook is the Clacks system, which is a real thing from from 113 00:08:03.800 --> 00:08:09.560 the United Kingdom. Before telegraphs, before electricity, they had sendapore towers that 114 00:08:09.600 --> 00:08:15.079 they used to send information around and they he uses that as a the world 115 00:08:15.120 --> 00:08:20.680 is getting smaller, right. Electronic communications may make us able to send send 116 00:08:20.720 --> 00:08:24.519 information back and forth from here to Hawaii, to China, to Africa to 117 00:08:24.600 --> 00:08:28.600 anywhere instantly, I can I can send and I can send an email like 118 00:08:28.639 --> 00:08:31.840 I did today at work. I communicated with somebody from my company's home base 119 00:08:31.879 --> 00:08:37.559 in Germany right, multiple times, instantly, zero hesitation, where sending a 120 00:08:37.559 --> 00:08:41.879 message to Germany, you know, in the year sixteen hundred would take weeks 121 00:08:43.399 --> 00:08:48.919 right at the minimum. And so you have this this tightening of the world 122 00:08:50.039 --> 00:08:54.000 and the world getting smaller and broader, and you're getting to see and touch 123 00:08:54.039 --> 00:09:01.159 more people and the so it's harder for for bad things or good things or 124 00:09:01.200 --> 00:09:05.559 anything that is far away to feel far away, right, And so the 125 00:09:05.200 --> 00:09:09.320 books, the books will struggle with that kind of perspective of like why why 126 00:09:09.320 --> 00:09:13.799 does it matter to us like on a day to day basis what's happening in 127 00:09:13.200 --> 00:09:18.240 Europe right, right? But nowadays it matters a lot, right if if 128 00:09:18.240 --> 00:09:22.200 you know there's some some crazy dictator who starts a war in the middle of 129 00:09:22.240 --> 00:09:26.559 Europe, well that that impacts the whole world for as long as that war 130 00:09:26.639 --> 00:09:30.480 is going on from and from then on out right. Definitely. Yeah, 131 00:09:30.519 --> 00:09:33.639 it's a really fun thing that the books do in terms of using kind of 132 00:09:33.679 --> 00:09:37.039 pseudo technology and stuff to make it accessible, but also still put it pretty 133 00:09:37.039 --> 00:09:41.200 far back in the past. And so I think a lot of people, 134 00:09:41.360 --> 00:09:45.200 especially if you pick up a book you read some of the passages, a 135 00:09:45.240 --> 00:09:48.960 lot of it is is humor, and a lot of it I think cappear 136 00:09:50.840 --> 00:09:54.559 still is the wrong word, but I think, you know, kind of 137 00:09:58.600 --> 00:10:01.840 not. I think it's a good word, you know that. I think 138 00:10:01.639 --> 00:10:05.039 it is often perceived to be like, oh, someone is just having fun 139 00:10:05.080 --> 00:10:09.440 with this universe. They're making things up. These are good for like a 140 00:10:09.519 --> 00:10:13.120 summer read or you know, getting yourself to laugh a little bit, and 141 00:10:13.240 --> 00:10:16.320 they are they're they're light books, like very much though, very much. 142 00:10:16.399 --> 00:10:20.080 Yeah, there's no there there there's no more. I don't think you're ever 143 00:10:20.120 --> 00:10:22.159 going to cry over you know what happens to a character or I feel like 144 00:10:22.200 --> 00:10:26.840 deep emotional moved moved. I disagree, but but okay, well they're lat 145 00:10:26.879 --> 00:10:31.720 in terms of like they're short, the writing is easily accessible, and the 146 00:10:31.799 --> 00:10:35.519 characters and everything feels engaging. Is oupposed to like some doorstop fantasy novel, 147 00:10:35.559 --> 00:10:37.159 like we've talked about the past, right right, Okay, so that's that's 148 00:10:37.159 --> 00:10:39.679 a bad example, but yeah, but yeah. The point I'm gathering too, 149 00:10:39.720 --> 00:10:45.159 though, is that so the first question might be why are we talking 150 00:10:45.159 --> 00:10:48.879 about it on a podcast called Superhero Ethics? And I know the answer, 151 00:10:48.919 --> 00:10:50.759 but I want to throw this to you to those who think, like these 152 00:10:50.759 --> 00:10:54.559 books are fluff, but that's kind of all they are. What's your response? 153 00:10:56.080 --> 00:10:58.799 Terry Pratchett wrestled, wrestled with the things that make us human, and 154 00:11:00.039 --> 00:11:05.559 he would passed these things through a lens of fantasy and a lens of satire. 155 00:11:05.000 --> 00:11:11.320 But fantasy and satire have always historically been a way to address big problem 156 00:11:11.360 --> 00:11:16.519 by abstracting them, right, YEA satire the like great satire authors of the 157 00:11:16.519 --> 00:11:22.000 past, would set things in weird or strange places to make commentary on the 158 00:11:22.039 --> 00:11:26.200 things of their day. If you look at like you know, famous satirists 159 00:11:26.200 --> 00:11:31.120 of the past, Jonathan Swift, Voltaire, they wrote fantasy pieces, right 160 00:11:31.080 --> 00:11:37.960 Candid a visit from Sirius, from Voltaire, Like almost anything about Jonathan Swift, 161 00:11:39.200 --> 00:11:43.960 they were They were pieces that were set outside of what was normal in 162 00:11:43.039 --> 00:11:48.679 order to in order to provide a different lens on issues that we're going on. 163 00:11:50.000 --> 00:11:52.440 And Terry Pratchett does this specifically. He wants to talk about economics. 164 00:11:52.440 --> 00:11:56.120 He wants to talk about slavery. He wants to talk about the rights of 165 00:11:56.159 --> 00:12:00.200 people. He wants to talk about the experiences of those who have different views. 166 00:12:00.399 --> 00:12:05.320 He wants to talk about issues about being trans about being about having problems 167 00:12:05.320 --> 00:12:09.279 fitting into other societies or those societies letting you fit into them. He wants 168 00:12:09.279 --> 00:12:13.960 to talk about slavery. He wants to talk about everything. And he'll take 169 00:12:13.960 --> 00:12:16.559 a book and he will. He will be very bald faced about what he's 170 00:12:16.600 --> 00:12:20.279 doing in a given book, right, he will be. He will. 171 00:12:20.559 --> 00:12:22.240 He's like, I'm coming at you with a hammer. We're we're going to 172 00:12:22.279 --> 00:12:28.240 talk about slavery this book Feet of Clay. Let's go right and but at 173 00:12:28.240 --> 00:12:33.000 the same time, like you said, it's funny the the in Men at 174 00:12:33.120 --> 00:12:39.639 Arms, which is fundamentally a book about and we want to specifically talk about 175 00:12:39.679 --> 00:12:41.759 guards books. So we're talking about like the second and third Guards books, 176 00:12:41.759 --> 00:12:46.480 Men at Arms and Feet of Clay, and then probably Jingo to the fourth 177 00:12:46.480 --> 00:12:50.200 one. In Men at Arms, there's a very early on there's a very 178 00:12:50.440 --> 00:12:54.720 very funny exchange with Vimes and Carrot where Vimes Vimes mentions, you know, 179 00:12:54.759 --> 00:13:00.080 the king's the head hancho, and and Carrot goes or the queen. He 180 00:13:00.120 --> 00:13:03.120 goes, okay, fine, yeah, haunch Arena and he goes, no, 181 00:13:03.120 --> 00:13:05.879 no, no, no, no no. I think I think would 182 00:13:05.879 --> 00:13:09.679 be han cessa like thinks through all the different like like versions of like female. 183 00:13:11.120 --> 00:13:13.360 He's like, no, that would be a young girl, like it's 184 00:13:13.360 --> 00:13:16.960 haunt Arena. And so it like if I's just like if i'ms just like 185 00:13:18.080 --> 00:13:20.600 everybody does this in on More Pork and I don't understand why, and it 186 00:13:20.639 --> 00:13:22.919 makes like what is wrong with the people in the city. No. Vimes 187 00:13:22.919 --> 00:13:26.519 has lived in the city his whole life and he's never left it. Yeah, 188 00:13:26.639 --> 00:13:30.679 yeah, yeah, I think it's one of the best things that he 189 00:13:30.720 --> 00:13:33.559 writes into the books. Is he kind of makes this joke through the eyes 190 00:13:33.600 --> 00:13:37.440 of Vimes, who's the leader of the night Watch and then of the City 191 00:13:37.480 --> 00:13:39.840 Guard by the as things move on, and that's a whole, very confusing 192 00:13:39.919 --> 00:13:43.879 thing. I'm gonna paint with broad strokes here, but he's a point of 193 00:13:43.960 --> 00:13:48.519 view character for a lot of the books, and he makes this comment about 194 00:13:48.559 --> 00:13:54.360 how he's always annoyed by the fact that the people of the city seem genetically 195 00:13:54.399 --> 00:13:58.200 disposite, disposed in his words, to go off on tangents, which allows 196 00:13:58.200 --> 00:14:01.440 the author to go off on chances all the time. Yeah, I will 197 00:14:01.440 --> 00:14:03.080 get to the night Watch, but I just want to focus one of this 198 00:14:03.159 --> 00:14:07.320 kind of overall thing because I think it is you know, the whole idea 199 00:14:07.360 --> 00:14:13.080 of this podcast is to take is to look at the way that the stories 200 00:14:13.200 --> 00:14:20.399 that yeah, often appear as less serious, you know, superheroes and comic 201 00:14:20.440 --> 00:14:22.120 books and all these kind of things. And I think that idea that they're 202 00:14:22.200 --> 00:14:28.080 less serious is in and of itself deeply flawed, but that often they have, 203 00:14:28.639 --> 00:14:33.879 sometimes intentionally sometimes unintentionally, very deep social meaning and very deep social commentary. 204 00:14:33.799 --> 00:14:37.200 Yes, and Pratchett, I think, is one who is very explicitly 205 00:14:37.759 --> 00:14:41.960 trying to make that commentary, and as you said, like like one thing 206 00:14:43.000 --> 00:14:45.639 I want to say, but it's hidden under all the comedy and fluff. 207 00:14:46.080 --> 00:14:48.799 It's not. It's not hidden at all. It's very unsubtle at times, 208 00:14:50.320 --> 00:14:52.840 but it is so wrapped up in comedy and humor that I feel like that 209 00:14:52.840 --> 00:14:56.039 the kind of person is like, oh, I don't want politics in my 210 00:14:56.080 --> 00:14:58.879 world is going to very happily read them, yes, and probably internalize some 211 00:15:00.039 --> 00:15:03.320 of the messages. I mean in terms of like finding that subtle line of 212 00:15:03.639 --> 00:15:07.919 teaching people about social justice without letting them know you're teaching them. I think 213 00:15:07.960 --> 00:15:11.159 Pratchett's one of the best of all times. He's he's very, very good. 214 00:15:11.240 --> 00:15:16.080 He's actually so subtle at it that there are a number of people who 215 00:15:16.080 --> 00:15:20.039 have tried to co opt his works as things that he explicitly didn't stand for, 216 00:15:20.200 --> 00:15:24.600 and like his daughter Ran Pratchett has had to come in and be like, 217 00:15:24.879 --> 00:15:28.919 are you insane? Like there are people who are like Terry Pratchett be 218 00:15:28.960 --> 00:15:33.679 against trans rights, and she's like, have you have you read Monstrous Regiment? 219 00:15:33.240 --> 00:15:37.200 Have you have you like, have you interacted with any of the characters 220 00:15:37.360 --> 00:15:43.639 in the Guards books like he's he had, so he'll he'll be imperfect. 221 00:15:43.879 --> 00:15:46.720 Is the other thing is because he wrote books. The first books published in 222 00:15:46.799 --> 00:15:50.840 nineteen eighty three, and he published them all the way up through twenty eighteen, 223 00:15:50.919 --> 00:15:58.720 I think. And so the thing is that some of his some of 224 00:15:58.720 --> 00:16:02.519 his views shifted over time, right, but he always tried and so that 225 00:16:02.519 --> 00:16:03.600 you always have a dialogue and people would come back and be like, I 226 00:16:03.600 --> 00:16:06.879 don't like the stuff that you did in this book, or the way that 227 00:16:06.919 --> 00:16:07.840 you phrase things, of the way that you address stuff, and he go, 228 00:16:07.960 --> 00:16:11.799 okay, I'll be better, and then his next book would sometimes he 229 00:16:11.799 --> 00:16:17.320 would come back and explicitly hammer something that he had touched an earlier book. 230 00:16:17.919 --> 00:16:21.519 I think that actually a monstrous regiment, which is like which is the thirty 231 00:16:21.519 --> 00:16:26.320 first book goes back and rehits trans issues in a way that he tried to 232 00:16:26.320 --> 00:16:32.639 touch in Men at Arms much much more aggressively indirectly, and that book is 233 00:16:33.759 --> 00:16:40.240 wild. A monstrous regiment is there are very few people who present is the 234 00:16:40.360 --> 00:16:45.000 gender that they were born as in that book and it's very it's very interesting. 235 00:16:45.000 --> 00:16:48.200 It's about a bunch of women that sign up to go to war, 236 00:16:48.720 --> 00:16:52.519 like they you know, recruiter comes to town and they all fake being men 237 00:16:52.639 --> 00:16:56.360 to sign up into this regiment. Yeah, and the sergeant leads them through 238 00:16:56.559 --> 00:17:02.600 everything and how how spoiler do we want to be because this book some spoilers 239 00:17:02.600 --> 00:17:04.799 to find the sergeant leads them through war and figures everything out, and the 240 00:17:04.839 --> 00:17:08.640 protagonists the viewpoint character for the whole book, somebody you know, figures everything 241 00:17:08.640 --> 00:17:14.599 out and throws a bundle of socks over the over the um the bathroom stall 242 00:17:14.799 --> 00:17:17.880 is like, you should pack with these, right, because people are going 243 00:17:17.920 --> 00:17:22.599 to look and see that you don't got anything down there, and so um 244 00:17:22.039 --> 00:17:27.079 the character does this, and then they gradually figure out that every almost every 245 00:17:27.119 --> 00:17:33.640 person in the regiment except for the lieutenant is is uh, you know, 246 00:17:33.000 --> 00:17:38.799 born female, right, and they the sergeant, they find out much later, 247 00:17:40.160 --> 00:17:42.680 also is born female and has been presenting as a mail for so long 248 00:17:42.839 --> 00:17:48.160 that everyone including them considers them a male. And then but they have like 249 00:17:48.400 --> 00:17:53.400 but this it's it's an interesting point of like who how do people want to 250 00:17:53.480 --> 00:17:59.759 present themselves? Right? And it is a whole book of that of like 251 00:18:00.079 --> 00:18:06.359 they they do this big scene where they um the sergeant like points out all 252 00:18:06.400 --> 00:18:10.000 of the officers when they finally meet all the officers, the big general staff. 253 00:18:10.039 --> 00:18:11.440 It's like these people stay in the room, those people go out, 254 00:18:11.960 --> 00:18:15.599 and everybody's like, why are you dividing up these people entirely randomly and arbitrary 255 00:18:17.000 --> 00:18:19.640 And they close the door, and the Sergeant's like, all right, all 256 00:18:19.759 --> 00:18:26.519 y'all are ones that I sussed out as like as fake, like as presenting 257 00:18:26.519 --> 00:18:29.680 male but having been bored female, every single one of you. There's half 258 00:18:29.680 --> 00:18:33.079 of the general staff like what they like, you can't you can't put these 259 00:18:33.160 --> 00:18:40.680 these you can't call these soldiers women. And then like you're the ones prosecuting 260 00:18:40.720 --> 00:18:44.160 this because they were two out as being they want to be. They want 261 00:18:44.160 --> 00:18:47.440 to present his women in addition to into addition who have been born a women. 262 00:18:47.559 --> 00:18:51.440 So it's like it's a it's a great like he wants to address this 263 00:18:51.440 --> 00:18:56.559 issue better because like it's it runs underneath all of these And then people are 264 00:18:56.599 --> 00:18:59.480 like, oh, there's no politics this, and I'm like he's angry. 265 00:18:59.759 --> 00:19:03.119 He's actively angry that people are being culs to people from being trans and wanting 266 00:19:03.119 --> 00:19:06.799 to choose their own gender presentation no matter what it is, no matter how 267 00:19:06.839 --> 00:19:10.799 they started, How did you miss this Noah, I think that's so true. 268 00:19:10.880 --> 00:19:12.440 I would probably describe it as that they were signed female at birth by 269 00:19:14.039 --> 00:19:17.039 the book itself. But yeah, and that um. And even to go 270 00:19:17.160 --> 00:19:19.119 to the Men in Arms book that you mentioned, that's the one that's written 271 00:19:19.160 --> 00:19:22.079 much earlier. And in that one, it's not as much that it's specifically 272 00:19:22.079 --> 00:19:26.400 about a character who I think we would today say is trans. But one 273 00:19:26.440 --> 00:19:30.000 of the main characters is a dwarf. Yep, and the dwarf has a 274 00:19:30.039 --> 00:19:34.319 long beard, and so to everyone else, they just assume this dwarf is 275 00:19:34.359 --> 00:19:38.559 male, and it was revealed Dwarves point. Yeah, the Dwarves actually don't 276 00:19:38.599 --> 00:19:44.880 have any public gender presentation except mail for every Dwarf, even within their society. 277 00:19:44.960 --> 00:19:48.319 Yeah, but it and the I don't way too lost in the weeds 278 00:19:48.319 --> 00:19:52.200 of the details of it, But what it gets you to is an idea 279 00:19:52.319 --> 00:19:57.160 of that the way we humans perceive gender. And I would say, actually, 280 00:19:57.599 --> 00:20:00.720 you know, euro a man, Americans perceived gender because a lot of 281 00:20:00.759 --> 00:20:06.839 other cultures are very different. The dwarf doesn't fit and the dwarf culture has 282 00:20:06.839 --> 00:20:10.920 a fundamtically different understanding of gender, and and I thought that was it was 283 00:20:11.039 --> 00:20:14.319 you know, I think he was definitely pushing the bounds at the time. 284 00:20:14.799 --> 00:20:18.799 He was doing it as a cisgender person in the eighties or nineties, And 285 00:20:18.480 --> 00:20:22.480 to me, his reaction when when some people did push back is the best 286 00:20:22.559 --> 00:20:26.400 I think you can imagine where he'd be like, oh okay, that's awesome, 287 00:20:26.920 --> 00:20:30.680 tell me more. He didn't get defensive as far as I understand from 288 00:20:30.319 --> 00:20:33.640 and this is from lots of like great interviews with activists who would talk to 289 00:20:33.720 --> 00:20:37.119 him. You know, he would just be like, oh, okay, 290 00:20:37.279 --> 00:20:38.599 I want to learn more, and then I want to put that into my 291 00:20:38.640 --> 00:20:44.559 books. Yes, And here, I think is where the lack of a 292 00:20:45.039 --> 00:20:51.519 locked in Here's where I think the lack of a locked in continuity really helps 293 00:20:51.599 --> 00:20:55.640 him, because I think one of the things that we're seeing with Marvel and 294 00:20:55.720 --> 00:20:59.039 with Star Wars and a DC and with some of these other properties is that 295 00:21:00.319 --> 00:21:03.720 they are locked into some degree of continuity, and they're often trying to make 296 00:21:04.480 --> 00:21:11.759 modern versions of characters that were written almost entirely by cis head white men in 297 00:21:11.799 --> 00:21:15.480 the forties, fifties, sixty seventies. May we're Jewish and then often gives 298 00:21:15.519 --> 00:21:18.559 it so much different perspective. But you know, and like I think some 299 00:21:18.640 --> 00:21:22.920 of them have wrestled with that really well. For example, the you know, 300 00:21:22.960 --> 00:21:26.240 I don't want to mention I was going to mention a particular TV show 301 00:21:26.279 --> 00:21:29.319 but part of the strike and I don't want to get into those, so 302 00:21:29.359 --> 00:21:30.359 I'm not going to mention it. But I think some of them have been 303 00:21:30.359 --> 00:21:34.720 done well, some of them haven't. But the point being that they're wrestling 304 00:21:34.720 --> 00:21:37.559 with it in a way that Terry Pratchett is just like, I don't need 305 00:21:37.599 --> 00:21:40.559 a wrestling with it because I can just change it, you know, right 306 00:21:40.720 --> 00:21:44.359 well, And part of that is actually because Terry Pratchett has never let anybody 307 00:21:44.359 --> 00:21:47.319 else write in disc World, right, there's nobody else Neil Gaman. Neil 308 00:21:47.319 --> 00:21:49.680 Gaman and Terry Pratett were very very good friends. They collaborating together on Good 309 00:21:49.680 --> 00:21:55.880 Omens, which is one of the best pieces of fantasy typewriting in this space. 310 00:21:56.359 --> 00:22:00.559 And Terry Pratet wouldn't let Neil Gaman touch disc World and game it doesn't 311 00:22:00.559 --> 00:22:06.279 want to touch dis World, right, And so the the there's no shared 312 00:22:06.359 --> 00:22:10.279 universe problem which is a problem in these big properties, which is they're so 313 00:22:10.319 --> 00:22:14.960 big that one author, one person can't manage the ball, right and so 314 00:22:15.559 --> 00:22:18.720 like you have the like you don't have a single unified creative vision, and 315 00:22:18.759 --> 00:22:21.720 you don't have one person who can go back and say, well, I 316 00:22:21.720 --> 00:22:23.720 want to go when rewrite my own history, and I want to retcn whatever, 317 00:22:25.079 --> 00:22:29.720 and I like, I don't feel the beholden to anybody else, right, 318 00:22:29.920 --> 00:22:33.680 and so and we fight against people like that on these big shared property 319 00:22:33.720 --> 00:22:36.640 Star Wars. As soon as it turned into a big shared property, you 320 00:22:36.680 --> 00:22:41.160 know, in the nineties, when the when the EU came in, you 321 00:22:41.200 --> 00:22:47.039 know, the expanded universe we had that, it didn't it fundamentally didn't matter 322 00:22:47.200 --> 00:22:49.559 to George Lucas. Now we can we can say whatever we want about George 323 00:22:49.599 --> 00:22:53.359 Lucas as a creator. But he also he felt like Star Wars. Star 324 00:22:53.359 --> 00:22:57.759 Wars was his creation to do whatever he wanted it in the same way. 325 00:22:59.079 --> 00:23:02.160 But then once it too big for him, once there were other properties, 326 00:23:02.519 --> 00:23:07.119 like it's a shared universe, and it's really hard to let other people play 327 00:23:07.119 --> 00:23:10.079 in the sandbox when they might have a different different view on things. They 328 00:23:10.119 --> 00:23:11.680 might not handle things in the same way. They handle things as sensitively, 329 00:23:12.240 --> 00:23:17.559 or they might handle things more sensitively and blow you away right right, So 330 00:23:17.920 --> 00:23:22.759 they want and to play in a shared universe sandbox. You need a lot 331 00:23:22.799 --> 00:23:27.039 more structure, right, You need a guidebook for exactly how this character behaves, 332 00:23:27.599 --> 00:23:30.920 because as soon as you hand that character off to somebody else, you 333 00:23:30.920 --> 00:23:33.240 want them to be consistent in the next property, right, Right. And 334 00:23:33.279 --> 00:23:37.039 I think that's a good point. I think that's part of why in a 335 00:23:37.039 --> 00:23:42.759 lot of the fandoms now we have people fighting with wildly different visions of what 336 00:23:42.799 --> 00:23:47.119 we think the original author intended or meant. And I surely don't think that 337 00:23:47.160 --> 00:23:48.920 all all of those views are equal by any means. But that's the topic 338 00:23:48.920 --> 00:23:52.279 you've heard me talk about at great length in the past. And so getting 339 00:23:52.319 --> 00:23:57.319 back to Pratchett. Getting back Pratchett, let's talk more about like some of 340 00:23:57.319 --> 00:24:00.160 the specific issues that he does want to talk about in these books. And 341 00:24:00.200 --> 00:24:04.160 I think there are some books that are very specifically like where one individual book 342 00:24:04.240 --> 00:24:07.680 or a series of books is about a particular thing. For example, he 343 00:24:07.720 --> 00:24:11.880 wrote one book that we're going to talk about a bit that is very much 344 00:24:11.000 --> 00:24:15.759 a anti war book that I believe was written or came out around the time 345 00:24:15.799 --> 00:24:19.720 of the original Desert Storm and very much kind of a protest about that. 346 00:24:21.359 --> 00:24:22.920 I'm not sure, if that's exactly true, it might be you know, 347 00:24:25.240 --> 00:24:29.039 earlier and like in regarding Falklands or something like that, I might publish ninety 348 00:24:29.079 --> 00:24:33.359 seven. So okay. So yeah, So it was after the original Golf 349 00:24:33.720 --> 00:24:37.680 Gulf War, but while both Britain and the United States still we're continuing, 350 00:24:37.799 --> 00:24:41.079 you know, warfare, and there was still a lot of it's called jingo 351 00:24:41.119 --> 00:24:45.680 and there was a lot of jingoism coming out of both England and the United 352 00:24:45.680 --> 00:24:48.799 States. And we'll get to that. But there were I think some real 353 00:24:48.880 --> 00:24:53.599 overarching themes to uh, Terry Pratchett's work in Discworld, and I think one 354 00:24:53.599 --> 00:24:57.920 of them is best exemplified by something you've been telling me about Grandma's definition of 355 00:24:57.960 --> 00:25:02.160 sin. You talk a little bit about that, Yeah, Granny weather Wax 356 00:25:02.359 --> 00:25:04.480 is. I would argue that Granny weather Wax is Terry Pratchett's favorite character. 357 00:25:06.000 --> 00:25:11.200 She's angry, which is the description that I best herd to describe Terry Pratchett. 358 00:25:11.200 --> 00:25:15.920 He is righteously angry all the time, and that's the way that she 359 00:25:15.960 --> 00:25:22.680 operates, and she defines sin. There's a section in Carpet Jokulam where she 360 00:25:22.759 --> 00:25:27.759 says, and that's what your holy men discuss is it in the priests that 361 00:25:27.799 --> 00:25:30.240 she's talking to. Do says not. Usually, there's a very interesting debate 362 00:25:30.319 --> 00:25:34.160 raging at the moment on the nature of sin, for example, And she 363 00:25:34.200 --> 00:25:37.319 says, and what do they think against it? Are they? He goes, 364 00:25:37.359 --> 00:25:41.200 It's not as simple as that. It's not a black and white issue. 365 00:25:41.480 --> 00:25:45.640 There's so many shades of gray. She goes, nope, pardon, 366 00:25:47.519 --> 00:25:52.039 there's no grace, only white that's got grubby. I'm surprised you don't know 367 00:25:52.119 --> 00:25:56.079 that. And sin, young man, is when you treat people like things, 368 00:25:56.880 --> 00:26:00.200 including yourself. That's what sin is. He says, it's a lot 369 00:26:00.240 --> 00:26:06.160 more complicated than that. No, it ain't. When people say things are 370 00:26:06.200 --> 00:26:08.640 a lot more complicated than that, they means they're getting worried that they won't 371 00:26:08.680 --> 00:26:14.200 like the truth people as things, and that's where it starts. Oh, 372 00:26:14.279 --> 00:26:18.759 I'm sure there are worse crimes, but they starts with thinking about people as 373 00:26:18.880 --> 00:26:23.680 things. Yeah. And I love that because it is it is such a 374 00:26:23.799 --> 00:26:30.279 simple, easy explanation of a school of ethical thought that goes back you know, 375 00:26:30.319 --> 00:26:34.240 I mean I think there are Greek, you know, I believe there 376 00:26:34.240 --> 00:26:40.839 are far earlier like maybe Greek or Roman or other philosophers who have come up 377 00:26:40.880 --> 00:26:44.519 simple similar ideas to me, though, what it rings closest to is Martin 378 00:26:44.559 --> 00:26:49.400 Buber, who is a Jewish theologian German in the nineteenth century who wrote, 379 00:26:51.880 --> 00:26:56.920 I Thou versus I it, and the idea being that like a good relationship 380 00:26:56.119 --> 00:27:03.200 is when I see you as thou as the other and other person that I 381 00:27:03.240 --> 00:27:07.680 relate to, versus that when I start seeing other people as it as things. 382 00:27:07.759 --> 00:27:10.160 You know, this is the person who sells me my grocery. Is 383 00:27:10.839 --> 00:27:14.559 all I know is the way that they interact comes into my life. He 384 00:27:14.599 --> 00:27:17.319 wrote, you know, an entire book on this, and many many books 385 00:27:17.359 --> 00:27:21.079 on it, and people have written, you know, librarries about these theological 386 00:27:21.079 --> 00:27:27.839 ideas and philosophical ideas and Grandma weather works h Granny other Wackwax. Granny Weatherwax 387 00:27:29.759 --> 00:27:33.279 comes up with the whole idea and just a few sentences create people as people, 388 00:27:33.480 --> 00:27:37.279 not as things. Yes, And that's that's kind of the big arc 389 00:27:37.359 --> 00:27:41.920 of all of the night Watch books, because the one of the things about 390 00:27:41.920 --> 00:27:48.079 the night Watch books is they are they're about Vimes running a growing police force, 391 00:27:48.200 --> 00:27:53.759 right, and they're growing because more pork has opened its doors to the 392 00:27:53.799 --> 00:27:57.920 people's of the world. Lord Vinari has decided that anybody can move to on 393 00:27:59.039 --> 00:28:00.839 More Pork. He's not going to discriminate. They have money. He likes 394 00:28:00.839 --> 00:28:06.640 money, right, And what that means is that everyone does moved on Moore 395 00:28:06.680 --> 00:28:11.119 Pork. Dwarves and trolls hate each other. They there are gnomes which are 396 00:28:11.200 --> 00:28:15.039 very tiny. There are gargoyles, which are which are kind of a species 397 00:28:15.079 --> 00:28:18.720 of troll that live in the on the tops of buildings. There's vampires and 398 00:28:18.759 --> 00:28:25.480 werewolves and ghouls and banshees that all move to onc More Pork. And one 399 00:28:25.480 --> 00:28:29.559 of the one of the big things is, well, if you have a 400 00:28:29.599 --> 00:28:33.240 civic group that is public facing, you got to hire people like we would 401 00:28:33.279 --> 00:28:38.359 call them diversity hires or affirmative action hires now. But in reality, like 402 00:28:38.559 --> 00:28:42.200 the night Watch is just this big melting pot of all these different people, 403 00:28:42.480 --> 00:28:47.519 right, and they have to struggle over and over again with what is their 404 00:28:47.559 --> 00:28:52.839 definition of a person? Right, And they start by folding in trolls and 405 00:28:52.920 --> 00:28:56.640 dwarfs and a werewolf. Right. A troll, dwarf and a werewolf are 406 00:28:56.640 --> 00:29:00.519 the diversity hires at the very minimal night Watch and by the end they're running 407 00:29:00.519 --> 00:29:06.559 into so they've hired a golem. Well, golems aren't alive, are they? 408 00:29:07.720 --> 00:29:11.680 And then later on they have to deal with the fact that there are 409 00:29:11.720 --> 00:29:15.480 goblins that everyone hates, an orcs that everyone hates. What about the villain 410 00:29:15.599 --> 00:29:18.119 races? Right, you can deal with dwarves, like if you're in a 411 00:29:18.119 --> 00:29:22.319 fantasy setting, everybody wants to play a dwarf. But like the all these 412 00:29:22.359 --> 00:29:29.319 these evil species, right are they? Are they people too? And of 413 00:29:29.319 --> 00:29:32.480 course through the course of the books it turns out like an undead zombie winds 414 00:29:32.519 --> 00:29:36.359 up joining in. Oh yeah, yeah, there are vampires that you know 415 00:29:36.680 --> 00:29:40.319 play a part in the city and yeah, well they do hire a vampire 416 00:29:40.359 --> 00:29:42.160 to the watch eventually, even though Vimes hates it. He hates it to 417 00:29:42.240 --> 00:29:48.359 death. Yeah he's so, he's so against it, But finally enough pressure 418 00:29:48.400 --> 00:29:52.839 gets put on him where he's like, fine, will probationarily hire this vampire 419 00:29:52.079 --> 00:29:56.839 when they do something, when they do anything to screw up, I will 420 00:29:56.880 --> 00:30:00.880 kick them out so they can't make any mistakes. Which is a very very 421 00:30:00.960 --> 00:30:04.839 much a thing for diversity hiring in workplaces. You have to be better, 422 00:30:06.119 --> 00:30:08.440 right, women have to be significantly better than men in a lot of hiring 423 00:30:08.480 --> 00:30:15.000 situations and that's deeply unfair. Yeah, and yeah, I want to touch 424 00:30:15.039 --> 00:30:18.160 more on that in a minute, but I wanted to pull back first to 425 00:30:18.200 --> 00:30:25.880 this idea of teaching people treating people as things, because he, like Boobery, 426 00:30:26.039 --> 00:30:30.400 he definitely means like when you actually see other sentient beings and you don't 427 00:30:30.440 --> 00:30:33.559 see them as people, But he also means it in a much more expansive 428 00:30:33.559 --> 00:30:37.359 way like boober does, and like you know, others of the school of 429 00:30:37.400 --> 00:30:41.039 thought where part of the idea. It's also talking about, you know, 430 00:30:41.519 --> 00:30:48.400 if you see people, if you see like lower classes as just there to 431 00:30:48.079 --> 00:30:52.000 you know, die for you, or to buy your stuff, or to 432 00:30:52.680 --> 00:30:56.319 you know, somehow advance your agenda because you see them as lesser than you 433 00:30:56.319 --> 00:31:02.000 are. It's basically the idea of if you see a person only through the 434 00:31:02.119 --> 00:31:06.400 lens of how they are valuable to you, that's when you've crossed this line 435 00:31:06.400 --> 00:31:10.839 into seeing them as a thing instead of seeing there they're full I want to 436 00:31:10.839 --> 00:31:12.440 see humanity. But that's the whole point. It's not just humans their full 437 00:31:12.440 --> 00:31:18.400 personhood, they're full sentiencest or whatever it is. Yeah, and so there's 438 00:31:18.839 --> 00:31:25.720 there's a bit in feet of clay, where um, the whole book is 439 00:31:25.799 --> 00:31:30.680 kicked off by deaths of some fairly unregarded people, right, and it's a 440 00:31:32.519 --> 00:31:34.599 it's a it's an old priest that nobody really cares about, and a guy 441 00:31:34.640 --> 00:31:40.640 that runs a museum for dwarf bread. And then later on they discover that 442 00:31:40.640 --> 00:31:45.559 two more people died as a consequence of of some poisoning from the same source, 443 00:31:45.160 --> 00:31:51.079 and they these people are just like, she's a she takes in mending 444 00:31:51.160 --> 00:31:56.319 and does seemstress mending, and it's her grandkid died as a result. And 445 00:31:56.359 --> 00:32:01.279 then then goes he tells one of the villains. He's like, these people 446 00:32:01.359 --> 00:32:07.519 died, and he goes, well, were they important? And here it 447 00:32:07.680 --> 00:32:10.440 goes, you know, I almost felt sorry for you up to that point. 448 00:32:12.440 --> 00:32:15.440 I really like you got dragged into the situation, you didn't have total 449 00:32:15.480 --> 00:32:20.160 control over. It kind of ran you over, and I almost felt sorry 450 00:32:20.200 --> 00:32:25.240 for you. Yeah, and he goes, I'm glad that Commander Vimes didn't 451 00:32:25.240 --> 00:32:30.680 get to hear this, because like, Vimes will not stand for that, 452 00:32:30.839 --> 00:32:40.240 and that's his his overriding thing is he Vimes is a very weird, a 453 00:32:40.359 --> 00:32:45.359 very weird aspect because he's basically the avatar of law. Right. He wants 454 00:32:45.440 --> 00:32:49.000 law and order, but not law and order in the sense that most, 455 00:32:49.160 --> 00:32:53.319 like most laws, are shaped by society by people with power. He hates 456 00:32:53.400 --> 00:32:59.440 people with power. I would even say that he's an avatar of justice rather 457 00:32:59.519 --> 00:33:02.799 than law, and that he sees the law often as things that are created 458 00:33:02.799 --> 00:33:07.200 by people in power, and that when the people in power want him. 459 00:33:07.599 --> 00:33:10.839 One of the constantentions of the book is that he very rarely is willing to 460 00:33:10.880 --> 00:33:19.279 be the enforcer of the government, and to the point where the patrician, 461 00:33:19.319 --> 00:33:22.359 who's the person who rules the city, and he's a great character and himself 462 00:33:23.039 --> 00:33:27.519 he has learned that the best way to get Vimes to do something is to 463 00:33:27.599 --> 00:33:30.119 order him not to do it. Oh, yes, which has become a 464 00:33:30.160 --> 00:33:36.079 wonderful ongoing theme throughout the books. Yeah, he tells Vimes, you, 465 00:33:36.079 --> 00:33:38.119 you know, you always used to have an anti authoritarian streak, and it's 466 00:33:38.240 --> 00:33:43.720 very interest that you've kept that despite becoming an authority. It's very zen of 467 00:33:43.799 --> 00:33:51.960 view, and the Vimes goes, sir, not a question, like I 468 00:33:52.079 --> 00:33:55.759 acknowledge what you're saying. Yeah, And I think that's a great way to 469 00:33:55.839 --> 00:33:59.960 jump into let's start talking about the night Watch books themselves, because they're very 470 00:34:00.119 --> 00:34:06.079 interesting set of books, and as you said there, they grow expansive as 471 00:34:06.119 --> 00:34:09.519 the books go on, in part because the group that they're about because expansive 472 00:34:09.559 --> 00:34:14.800 because it's originally about the night Watch. Who are you know, the people 473 00:34:14.800 --> 00:34:16.800 who literally are just supposed to like walk around the city and ring their bell 474 00:34:16.920 --> 00:34:20.639 and say all is well, or ring their bell if as a problem, 475 00:34:21.079 --> 00:34:24.920 and they're mostly ignored. Yes, they're they're the dregs right exactly. And 476 00:34:25.320 --> 00:34:30.079 one of the things that kind of and Vines is left and can control when 477 00:34:30.440 --> 00:34:32.039 his higher up, the merchant who trained him and he really sees as a 478 00:34:32.039 --> 00:34:37.360 mentor and almost a father figure, dies and no one goes to the funeral 479 00:34:37.480 --> 00:34:40.840 except other guards, and he kind of like gets it in his mind that 480 00:34:40.880 --> 00:34:45.960 he should start thinking more about what matters and that the guards can do things, 481 00:34:45.599 --> 00:34:51.079 and winds up surprising the city when all of a sudden they're actually trying 482 00:34:51.119 --> 00:34:55.119 to like solve crimes and prevent bad things from happening and punish when when you 483 00:34:55.159 --> 00:34:59.760 know, figure out what happened when bad things did happen, and the city 484 00:35:00.079 --> 00:35:02.239 kind of doesn't know what to do with him because they're not used to someone 485 00:35:02.559 --> 00:35:06.960 actually caring, especially if it's the rich and powerful who do bad things. 486 00:35:07.199 --> 00:35:09.840 Right, and Vetinari, the Patrician is set up the city so that the 487 00:35:09.880 --> 00:35:15.400 watch is an appendix. It's like it's going to get stepped stood down at 488 00:35:15.400 --> 00:35:19.639 the end of men at arms because it doesn't do anything the way that you 489 00:35:19.719 --> 00:35:22.039 prevent crime. Vetinari says that if we're going to have crime, and we 490 00:35:22.079 --> 00:35:28.079 will, it should be organized. Yeah. Yeah, there's a thieves Guild, 491 00:35:28.800 --> 00:35:30.880 right, And so what the Thieves Guild have is a license given by 492 00:35:30.880 --> 00:35:35.639 the city, given by the government that they pay for to that allows them 493 00:35:35.679 --> 00:35:37.639 to steal from people. And what they do is they say, well, 494 00:35:37.679 --> 00:35:40.239 it's a lot of work to go and steal from people, though, so 495 00:35:40.280 --> 00:35:44.039 they go to businesses and they go, here's the deal. You buy a 496 00:35:44.079 --> 00:35:46.239 license from us, You buy a thieves Guild protection from us, and you 497 00:35:46.280 --> 00:35:51.000 put it up as a sign, and then we don't steal from you. 498 00:35:51.000 --> 00:35:53.719 You pay up with the Thieves Guild every year and there will be no licensed 499 00:35:53.719 --> 00:35:59.480 thievery. If there's unlicensed thievery, give us a call and we have a 500 00:35:59.559 --> 00:36:04.079 We take a very dim view of scabs, right and by a very dim 501 00:36:04.239 --> 00:36:08.400 view. They are. They are brutally lethal at at removing games. And 502 00:36:08.440 --> 00:36:14.639 so if theft isn't something the Watch cares about, right, the answer is 503 00:36:14.840 --> 00:36:16.000 you turn them over to the thieves skilled and let them sort it out. 504 00:36:16.199 --> 00:36:21.519 You know what, You don't really have street crime when when you have people 505 00:36:21.559 --> 00:36:24.760 that enforce it. They've created a watch incidentally via basically an insurance structure, 506 00:36:27.159 --> 00:36:31.360 and so the Watch is basically there for murders and to keep the peace, 507 00:36:31.400 --> 00:36:37.639 which is a very nebulous term, right, And yeah, I mean when 508 00:36:37.679 --> 00:36:39.840 he when he trudges trying to get the Watch to do more, the first 509 00:36:39.840 --> 00:36:44.199 people has to givence is the other watch people, and and and then it 510 00:36:44.280 --> 00:36:46.880 kind of mushrooms and he takes over the day Watch first. There's a rivalry 511 00:36:46.920 --> 00:36:51.079 there. They're just the Watch in general now and more and more guards come 512 00:36:51.119 --> 00:36:55.000 in, and that's a good place to start. What I think is kind 513 00:36:55.000 --> 00:37:00.840 of one of the most interesting questions about the night Watch is and again here 514 00:37:00.679 --> 00:37:05.360 these are books that start getting written in the nineteen eighties. I think a 515 00:37:05.400 --> 00:37:07.280 lot of the night Watch books specifically are written in the nineties and early two 516 00:37:07.320 --> 00:37:12.920 thousands. And he dies in as you said, the late twenty teens. 517 00:37:15.079 --> 00:37:17.800 BLM was I think just getting started at the time he passes away. A 518 00:37:19.000 --> 00:37:21.840 cab was not a phrase that was being used, but is being used obviously 519 00:37:21.920 --> 00:37:24.039 much more today. Although certainly, you know, concerns about police brutality we're 520 00:37:24.039 --> 00:37:29.360 a thing in most of his books. Here's the way I would I think 521 00:37:29.360 --> 00:37:30.280 that some people today would be like, oh, I don't want to read 522 00:37:30.320 --> 00:37:34.559 any books about police because of a cab. And I think that's a very 523 00:37:34.599 --> 00:37:37.920 fair perspective, and I'm not trying to push anyone out of it. I 524 00:37:37.920 --> 00:37:38.960 would say, though, were these books, there's two things going on. 525 00:37:39.039 --> 00:37:44.559 I'm curious if you would agree. One is that you know that I think 526 00:37:44.559 --> 00:37:45.960 one of the big problems that many of us would have with police is that 527 00:37:46.159 --> 00:37:52.320 I think the distillation of it is that the police are there to enforce not 528 00:37:52.440 --> 00:37:57.320 justice, but the law, and the law is handed down through these oligarchical 529 00:37:57.480 --> 00:38:00.000 you know, the rich are basically in control kind of clical systems that most 530 00:38:00.000 --> 00:38:04.280 of us live under to one, you know, just with varying amounts of 531 00:38:04.320 --> 00:38:07.440 how express the oppressive it is. But you know, I think even in 532 00:38:07.440 --> 00:38:10.639 this country we see that all the time with the police there's an extent to 533 00:38:10.639 --> 00:38:15.079 which in the night Watch world that's not the case they want it to be, 534 00:38:15.480 --> 00:38:16.920 and he is, let me just say both of these things, and 535 00:38:16.920 --> 00:38:20.039 then yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely, I'm just letting you know that 536 00:38:20.039 --> 00:38:22.880 I have stuff. Ye, yeah, for sure. And I think that 537 00:38:22.559 --> 00:38:25.760 it certainly is to some extent, and that over the course the books, 538 00:38:25.880 --> 00:38:30.199 Vines is trying to get out from under that idea and make it into something 539 00:38:30.320 --> 00:38:32.159 very different, because it's not police as it is in our world, it's 540 00:38:32.159 --> 00:38:37.719 the Watch. But the second part of it is that I think that if 541 00:38:37.760 --> 00:38:42.360 Pratchett had lived another ten years and people had gone to him and said, 542 00:38:42.440 --> 00:38:45.400 hey, you know, we're thinking a lot more about police brutality, and 543 00:38:45.400 --> 00:38:52.559 we're thinking a lot more about the idea that police fundamentally as an institution are 544 00:38:52.599 --> 00:38:58.000 problematic and all the ideas of ACAB. I think Pratchett would have responded and 545 00:38:58.039 --> 00:39:00.960 exactly the way he did with the other stuff, and been like, yeah, 546 00:39:00.000 --> 00:39:02.280 you're probably right. Let me let me see how I can write this 547 00:39:02.320 --> 00:39:06.800 in different ways or be more aware of that or whatever it is. Yeah, 548 00:39:06.840 --> 00:39:09.039 I agree, but you also have to take it from the respective of 549 00:39:09.679 --> 00:39:14.840 Terry Pratchett is from the UK. He's a British or and so he is 550 00:39:14.840 --> 00:39:17.920 going to write about the way that policing is handled in Britain. And they 551 00:39:17.920 --> 00:39:22.840 actually have a thing appeals principles of policing, policing by consent. Most of 552 00:39:22.840 --> 00:39:28.639 them don't carry guns, and the policing is there. They've set up the 553 00:39:28.679 --> 00:39:30.840 set of principles. Peel set up the set of principles of like, police 554 00:39:30.840 --> 00:39:34.559 are there to serve the people, right, the public, they keep the 555 00:39:34.559 --> 00:39:37.840 peace. And so when you compare the way that policing has done in the 556 00:39:37.920 --> 00:39:39.440 UK to the way it's in the United States, it's very different. We 557 00:39:39.440 --> 00:39:47.920 have a militarized police system and they oftentimes will treat they will oftentimes treat the 558 00:39:49.400 --> 00:39:53.760 public is their enemies, right, And I think that that having an aspirational 559 00:39:53.840 --> 00:39:57.639 group how police, how you want it to be as good, right, 560 00:39:57.840 --> 00:40:01.000 because that forces people to confront how they're different, like you could call it 561 00:40:01.079 --> 00:40:06.840 in the United States, Like there are very funny police shows, right Brooklyn 562 00:40:07.239 --> 00:40:12.239 Brooklyn nine nine is a show that is about a fictional police department, and 563 00:40:12.239 --> 00:40:15.960 it is very funny, right, but it is fundamentally about a different thing 564 00:40:16.119 --> 00:40:22.880 than the watch. Because American policing is very different than British police, right, 565 00:40:22.519 --> 00:40:28.000 and so yeah, he probably would have had a book where he has 566 00:40:28.079 --> 00:40:34.079 police from a different place that behave very differently towards their people and like compare 567 00:40:34.079 --> 00:40:37.679 and contrast it and say, look, yes, I agree the cops there 568 00:40:37.679 --> 00:40:42.079 are bastards, right, like you should probably you should probably be better. 569 00:40:44.199 --> 00:40:46.639 And to be clear, I do think it's worth pointing out there is quite 570 00:40:46.679 --> 00:40:51.000 a lot of police brutality and racism in the British policing system. It is 571 00:40:51.239 --> 00:40:54.159 very different, I think, in much less ways and unlike here where policing 572 00:40:54.280 --> 00:40:59.199 was literally borne out of slave catching. Yes, like England has a very 573 00:40:59.239 --> 00:41:01.199 different history of it. Yes, So I just want to be careful that 574 00:41:01.239 --> 00:41:05.480 we're not romanticized in the UK. Believe I'm not. I'm not. I'm 575 00:41:05.519 --> 00:41:08.519 just drawing the lens that, like his view, policing is based on a 576 00:41:08.559 --> 00:41:13.079 completely different philosophy of policing in the United States, policing, like you're saying, 577 00:41:13.119 --> 00:41:17.079 they came came from entirely different starts and places, and they they've they're 578 00:41:17.079 --> 00:41:22.719 converging a little bit, but not like I think that just the just the 579 00:41:22.800 --> 00:41:27.960 arming of police, that difference alone, right, that like seven. Only 580 00:41:28.000 --> 00:41:32.039 seven percent of officers in Britain even carry a weapon or carry a gun. 581 00:41:32.360 --> 00:41:37.360 They might carry a truncheon or a night stick or pepper sprayer or whatever, 582 00:41:37.559 --> 00:41:42.119 but ninety three percent of them don't carry any kind of lethal weapon on them. 583 00:41:42.599 --> 00:41:45.320 And so when you when you look at it from that lens of like 584 00:41:45.400 --> 00:41:50.960 he's looking at polices, they aren't an armed, militarized force like that changes 585 00:41:50.960 --> 00:41:53.760 the game, right, even even if the police there are senses, right, 586 00:41:54.079 --> 00:41:57.559 they're gone, you don't have to be afraid for your life. You're 587 00:41:57.559 --> 00:42:00.679 just gonna be afraid that they're going to believe friendly podcast. I'm sorry, 588 00:42:00.679 --> 00:42:04.880 it's okay. We'll just have a lot of beeps right there. But that's 589 00:42:04.920 --> 00:42:07.079 fine. Yeah, no, I don't. I think you're right though, 590 00:42:07.079 --> 00:42:09.039 and I think that's an important thing. And I think, you know, 591 00:42:09.079 --> 00:42:14.800 because I think I think it's important understand that he starts from a different place 592 00:42:14.880 --> 00:42:17.440 and like even something by nine, I think I think there's an argument to 593 00:42:17.480 --> 00:42:22.519 be made that it is still presenting the idea that American police could be made 594 00:42:22.599 --> 00:42:25.559 better when I think a lot of us are on the side of it kind 595 00:42:25.559 --> 00:42:30.159 of has to be torn down and started over. I think you make good 596 00:42:30.199 --> 00:42:31.719 points that in England it is a fairly different thing, and also that's being 597 00:42:31.719 --> 00:42:37.320 read right way back in history and yet to me. To me, I 598 00:42:37.320 --> 00:42:39.519 think i'd start with a place of it comes from a very different place, 599 00:42:39.840 --> 00:42:45.519 but also that the I want to be very careful. It's not to say 600 00:42:45.559 --> 00:42:49.800 that like, oh, we all just discovered racism in the police when Black 601 00:42:49.840 --> 00:42:52.000 Lives Matter got started, is obviously incorrect. I think it's when a lot 602 00:42:52.000 --> 00:42:55.639 more white people started to pay attention to it. But there's been racism and 603 00:42:55.760 --> 00:43:01.039 policing, as we said, since police started. But I do think that 604 00:43:01.360 --> 00:43:05.920 as poor people approached Pratchett, he would have definitely put that more into his 605 00:43:05.960 --> 00:43:08.840 books. Yeah, he certainly would have. Well, so let's talk more 606 00:43:08.840 --> 00:43:12.920 about some of the specific characters, because I think that's also where we start 607 00:43:12.920 --> 00:43:15.719 to really get into some of the points that he's making through these characters and 608 00:43:15.719 --> 00:43:21.559 through these stories. And let's talk about Vimes and Carrott as the two kind 609 00:43:21.599 --> 00:43:24.519 of because I think they present a very interesting dichotomy between the two of them, 610 00:43:24.840 --> 00:43:30.519 and each one of them has a lot of rhetorical power in the way 611 00:43:30.559 --> 00:43:35.079 that Terry Pratchett uses them to to make points. So tell us about about 612 00:43:35.119 --> 00:43:39.000 Vimes and about Karrott. Yes, so Vimes is, and especially in the 613 00:43:39.280 --> 00:43:45.119 first few Watch books, he's a pastiche of the hero cops. Right. 614 00:43:45.440 --> 00:43:49.400 He is dirty, Harry he is. He's a tough, you know, 615 00:43:49.519 --> 00:43:52.400 no nonsense, street brawling thug with a heart of gold. That is, 616 00:43:52.679 --> 00:43:57.800 that is fine with breaking the rules to do the right thing, which is 617 00:43:59.760 --> 00:44:05.239 from from a structural perspective. This is getting into police problems, right, 618 00:44:05.280 --> 00:44:08.480 because this is saying that the rules bind the police officers and you shouldn't follow 619 00:44:08.519 --> 00:44:12.599 them if you're you know, in hot pursuit, and that gives them a 620 00:44:12.599 --> 00:44:15.960 lot of license to do whatever. So that like, but that's what he 621 00:44:16.000 --> 00:44:22.000 does. Carrot, on the other hand, is newcomer to the city and 622 00:44:22.039 --> 00:44:27.320 he's idealistic. He is a simple person, but that doesn't mean stupid. 623 00:44:27.800 --> 00:44:30.039 Is the line that they use. He moves in straight lines when everyone else 624 00:44:30.039 --> 00:44:36.039 moves in circles, and he is the like. They make a big deal 625 00:44:36.079 --> 00:44:39.199 about it in several books. He is the uncrowned king of Untamore. Pork 626 00:44:39.639 --> 00:44:47.639 righte and his girlfriend Angua makes the point she's a werewolf and she can see 627 00:44:47.639 --> 00:44:52.159 it that he moves through the city like a tiger moves through the jungle, 628 00:44:52.800 --> 00:44:58.159 right, he wears it like a skin. And it's his natural environment that 629 00:44:58.239 --> 00:45:01.840 he had this charismatic talent that he's he was raised by dwarves as a as 630 00:45:01.880 --> 00:45:07.280 an orphan, and so he comes to the city and he has in a 631 00:45:07.360 --> 00:45:09.159 dwarf mine. You only meet a hundred people in your whole life, right, 632 00:45:09.199 --> 00:45:13.320 all the people living in this mine, all the dwarfs there in the 633 00:45:13.360 --> 00:45:16.719 city, you'll meet a million. And he has this this charismatic talent that 634 00:45:16.800 --> 00:45:21.480 expands out to fill the whole city. He knows everybody, and everybody likes 635 00:45:21.559 --> 00:45:25.519 him, and nobody likes Mimes. But Vimes is in charge, Vimes is 636 00:45:25.559 --> 00:45:30.199 the commander. Vimes his Carrot's boss. Yeah, and Carrot is very clear 637 00:45:30.239 --> 00:45:34.920 about that, like that he's got a boss, and that if his boss 638 00:45:34.960 --> 00:45:37.239 tells him no, well that's it. That's the that's the line, that's 639 00:45:37.239 --> 00:45:42.320 the end. Right. And because because Karrot, I think, I think 640 00:45:42.360 --> 00:45:45.119 one thing that's really important in him, he starts out very much the avatar 641 00:45:45.159 --> 00:45:52.239 of law because yeah, but not because he not not because he thinks the 642 00:45:52.280 --> 00:45:55.960 nobles are right and have this divine right to set the law it's because he's 643 00:45:55.960 --> 00:46:00.519 never thought about it, and he just thinks the law is good. And 644 00:46:00.599 --> 00:46:04.440 so on his first day and his first day as a member of the Watch, 645 00:46:04.719 --> 00:46:07.039 he goes and tries to arrest the entire thieves guild and has to kind 646 00:46:07.079 --> 00:46:14.039 of learn that's not how it works. But he translates into this very interesting 647 00:46:14.119 --> 00:46:16.320 character. I don't want to talk about a couple of aspects of him, 648 00:46:16.320 --> 00:46:20.760 And the first thing is I think he often gets to be the avatar for 649 00:46:20.800 --> 00:46:25.840 the audience about this idea of expanding our nature of people, because he is 650 00:46:25.960 --> 00:46:31.039 fundamentally goodhearted, but he's fundamentally learned the prejudices of the people who grew up 651 00:46:31.079 --> 00:46:36.320 with, not because they're like particularly hateful people, but just because they live 652 00:46:36.360 --> 00:46:39.119 in a mind and they don't know much about other people. And so in 653 00:46:39.159 --> 00:46:44.519 an interesting scene early in the book that Angua, his eventual girlfriend, is 654 00:46:44.559 --> 00:46:50.119 introduced. She is a. Again. I love that you use the term 655 00:46:50.199 --> 00:46:53.679 diversity higher, because I think that's kind of he's kind of He's not making 656 00:46:53.760 --> 00:46:58.360 fun of affirmative action by naps. He's making fun of the people who think 657 00:46:58.400 --> 00:47:01.519 affirmative action is just diverse hires, when actually it's people who have different skill 658 00:47:01.559 --> 00:47:07.760 sets and different perspectives that are needed. But in that book they keep saying 659 00:47:08.239 --> 00:47:14.920 that Angua is a diversity higher because and they start the word with a W 660 00:47:15.480 --> 00:47:17.719 and then it gets cut off. Yes, And so the joke is that 661 00:47:17.800 --> 00:47:22.639 everyone thinks she's a hier because she's a woman. And there's some question as 662 00:47:22.639 --> 00:47:24.199 too, did they actually know she was a diversity hire because she was a 663 00:47:24.199 --> 00:47:30.760 warewolf or what it is it's spelled out. Vins knows, but Carrot doesn't, 664 00:47:30.280 --> 00:47:35.920 right, and most of the crew doesn't, and so he doesn't know 665 00:47:35.960 --> 00:47:38.880 she's a wearewolf. He finds out that she's staying in a place that it's 666 00:47:38.960 --> 00:47:45.320 full of the folks who are genuinely not liked, like werewolves and zombies and 667 00:47:45.519 --> 00:47:50.000 vampires and things like this, and he's very worried for her. And you 668 00:47:50.119 --> 00:47:52.960 see her like having been kind of into this guy, maybe wanting to flirt 669 00:47:53.000 --> 00:47:57.719 with him, but then really kind of like souring on him when she sees 670 00:47:57.760 --> 00:48:04.679 he has these prejudices, except like he is the perfect example of the person 671 00:48:04.800 --> 00:48:09.480 who, when presented with new information, will immediately drop his his prejudgments, 672 00:48:10.159 --> 00:48:15.960 which prejudices. That's where the word comes from. Prejudging. Yea and me 673 00:48:15.559 --> 00:48:20.079 go ahead, I was gonna say, But he still snap reacts until he's 674 00:48:20.199 --> 00:48:23.440 until he's rewired himself. When he first finds out when she first changes in 675 00:48:23.480 --> 00:48:27.199 the moonlight, he turns around and sees that she's a werewolf, and he 676 00:48:27.280 --> 00:48:30.559 draws a sword because he thinks she's the doors closed, she's been in the 677 00:48:30.599 --> 00:48:34.840 room with him, she's the only person there, and so like. But 678 00:48:35.000 --> 00:48:39.639 he goes, oh, it's a wolf. I should be I should fight, 679 00:48:39.679 --> 00:48:43.559 I should be afraid, And she used to rewire himself, but he 680 00:48:43.599 --> 00:48:45.400 does by the end of that book. Yeah, And I think that's what 681 00:48:45.519 --> 00:48:51.000 makes and I think it seems very intentional to me that Carrot is the avatar 682 00:48:51.039 --> 00:48:53.719 for those things, because part of what they're saying is that even the best 683 00:48:53.719 --> 00:49:00.159 of us, even the most morally pure, utterly innocent, can still have 684 00:49:00.159 --> 00:49:06.440 these prejudgments. And he's so he and I think the whole point is that 685 00:49:06.519 --> 00:49:12.519 Carrot isn't like it's saying that, like, it's okay that Carrot has that 686 00:49:12.559 --> 00:49:15.719 first reaction. It's not great, and it's better if you don't. But 687 00:49:15.840 --> 00:49:20.159 to have that reaction at first makes sense given how Carrot is raised. The 688 00:49:20.320 --> 00:49:23.360 question then becomes when you're presented with the evidence, what do you do? 689 00:49:23.559 --> 00:49:27.800 Because I think that's the thing that's so frustrating and has been through our history 690 00:49:28.039 --> 00:49:32.199 is when you start with preconceived notions about another gender, or another race, 691 00:49:32.320 --> 00:49:36.960 or another religion or another you know, a gender identity or any of these 692 00:49:36.960 --> 00:49:39.760 things. Are you able to say, oh, well, actually, I 693 00:49:39.840 --> 00:49:44.320 met this person and they're kind of awesome, so maybe my views about the 694 00:49:44.360 --> 00:49:47.280 group that they're from I should change. Or are you going to say, 695 00:49:47.480 --> 00:49:51.480 oh, well, now that I know this about that person, everything I 696 00:49:51.519 --> 00:49:54.000 experienced about them must be wrong, or oh well, they are one of 697 00:49:54.039 --> 00:49:57.280 the good ones, so they're okay, but everyone else in their group is 698 00:49:57.320 --> 00:50:02.320 still bad. Yeah. And it's a fin hastic allegory about like the fundamental 699 00:50:02.320 --> 00:50:07.199 basis of prejudice, and it really is I think one of the best books 700 00:50:07.320 --> 00:50:12.239 series of books. I think all of this World is about what we do 701 00:50:12.360 --> 00:50:15.960 when we confront something that's different, and how do I get past are innate, 702 00:50:16.199 --> 00:50:20.840 you know, desire to judge the different as bad or as dangerous or 703 00:50:21.119 --> 00:50:23.679 right, and that judging the different is bad and dangerous. Angula, who's 704 00:50:23.719 --> 00:50:28.280 a werewolf, deals with all the time because so the Watch members know about 705 00:50:28.320 --> 00:50:31.880 this. So like when when feet of Clay comes around and she has to 706 00:50:31.920 --> 00:50:36.320 deal with the fact that everyone carries a little bit of silver on them, 707 00:50:36.920 --> 00:50:40.039 Yeah, except for Carrot. Carrot has decided she's safe, and so she's 708 00:50:40.079 --> 00:50:45.159 safe, Like he couldn't, Like, he's probably the one person who probably 709 00:50:45.199 --> 00:50:47.840 could successfully fight her because he's like a shoot, pull her punches and be 710 00:50:47.880 --> 00:50:51.760 he's tough as hell. So if he had silver, he would, he 711 00:50:51.840 --> 00:50:55.760 would, he would actually be a real threat. And the everybody else, 712 00:50:55.800 --> 00:51:00.840 even even people who are her best friends, who like her and work with 713 00:51:00.880 --> 00:51:02.719 her every day, carry a little bit of silver just you know, just 714 00:51:02.760 --> 00:51:07.639 in case on them, which is and everybody's just a tiny little bit fearful 715 00:51:07.679 --> 00:51:12.159 of her, and she senses this all the time, and it is this 716 00:51:12.440 --> 00:51:17.320 wild like allegory for racial tension that like you wouldn't realize if you aren't thinking 717 00:51:17.360 --> 00:51:20.079 about it that way, right, It's just like, oh, yeah, 718 00:51:20.079 --> 00:51:22.519 of course people are going to be tense. She can turn into a wolf 719 00:51:22.519 --> 00:51:24.559 and arrow at your jugular vein, right, Like of course you're going to 720 00:51:24.559 --> 00:51:27.800 be a little bit afraid. It's like, yeah, but anybody could do 721 00:51:27.840 --> 00:51:32.360 that, Like so like anybody could could hurt or kill you. Why are 722 00:51:32.360 --> 00:51:37.639 you so so picky about it being a werewolf? Right, Yeah, I 723 00:51:37.639 --> 00:51:40.760 think it's that second point, especially because when when people look at like a 724 00:51:40.760 --> 00:51:49.119 werewolf or a zombie or like the X Men as a metaphor for something like 725 00:51:49.199 --> 00:51:52.519 racism or anti religious biased or any of the link, it always falls apart 726 00:51:52.559 --> 00:51:57.119 a little bit because the fundamental thing is that like, no one race is 727 00:51:57.159 --> 00:52:00.719 actually different in terms of like there are in or their propensity to violence than 728 00:52:00.760 --> 00:52:05.880 any other part of humanity. Yeah, where wolves are x men, like 729 00:52:05.920 --> 00:52:08.519 you know, like an X men does have the ability to melt me with 730 00:52:08.519 --> 00:52:12.840 his laser eyes or something like that. So it's not a perfect analogy, 731 00:52:12.840 --> 00:52:15.079 but as you said, I think that they go part of what he goes 732 00:52:15.119 --> 00:52:20.320 to is a werewolf looks scary, but the reality is that any person can 733 00:52:20.360 --> 00:52:22.000 attack you with a weapon on any kind or anything like that. Yeah, 734 00:52:22.039 --> 00:52:24.679 where wolves just happen to have their weapons in their mouth. Yes, and 735 00:52:24.840 --> 00:52:29.760 it is Yeah in the United States, like we have more guns than people 736 00:52:29.800 --> 00:52:32.239 here, right, so like statistically you will meet people with guns over the 737 00:52:32.239 --> 00:52:35.599 course of the day if you go out in public. Just the nature of 738 00:52:35.599 --> 00:52:38.599 the United States, right, And are you going to say that you know, 739 00:52:38.719 --> 00:52:44.199 these people are inherently scary or dangerous just because they happen to have access 740 00:52:44.199 --> 00:52:46.800 to a lethal weapon. I don't think that's necessarily true. I think that 741 00:52:46.840 --> 00:52:51.559 I'm concerned that the lethal weapons out there, but like I think that this 742 00:52:51.639 --> 00:52:53.960 is a lesson that like I probably would like to hurt more. Yeah, 743 00:52:54.039 --> 00:52:58.079 I would actually argue that it is like not only just my gut feeling, 744 00:52:58.119 --> 00:53:00.400 but I believe the statistics do demonstrate that, you know, because we all 745 00:53:00.480 --> 00:53:05.199 have those moments of I wish I could hit someone right now, but if 746 00:53:05.199 --> 00:53:07.320 you don't have a gun with you, it passes. If you have a 747 00:53:07.360 --> 00:53:09.320 gun, you often use it. But right, that's a whole debate, 748 00:53:09.360 --> 00:53:12.679 not to get into it, but but the thing is that you shouldn't be 749 00:53:13.079 --> 00:53:15.599 You shouldn't just be automatically always afraid of people. I think would be my 750 00:53:16.360 --> 00:53:19.960 my line. Because in the United States, it's possible they might have a 751 00:53:19.960 --> 00:53:23.480 gun. Concealed carry is legal many places, right, and so they like 752 00:53:23.519 --> 00:53:27.639 they could just have a gun, and so but you shouldn't by default be 753 00:53:27.639 --> 00:53:30.639 afraid of them. Like I would like fewer guns in the streets. That's 754 00:53:30.679 --> 00:53:32.440 a whole different thing. I think that cops shouldn't have guns. I think 755 00:53:32.480 --> 00:53:37.000 that we should have fewer guns. But the gun isn't the thing that I 756 00:53:37.079 --> 00:53:40.599 had that the gun. The gun is a tool. It's just a powerful 757 00:53:40.639 --> 00:53:45.360 tool. Her jaws are a powerful tool. She has them all the time, 758 00:53:45.639 --> 00:53:50.639 right. The person behind it is what's is the thing that's important. 759 00:53:50.639 --> 00:53:53.280 I believe it's Terry Pratchett's point. Yeah, I think I should disagree with 760 00:53:53.280 --> 00:53:54.920 you on the gun part, but I definitely get your main point. I 761 00:53:54.920 --> 00:54:00.840 think that's that's that's the more important thing there. And just to continue with 762 00:54:00.920 --> 00:54:02.599 Carrot, I think the other thing that he does that is so interesting, 763 00:54:02.639 --> 00:54:07.480 and again it's kind of Pretchett pushing on the way. The way again that 764 00:54:07.519 --> 00:54:12.639 we can fall into these mental boxes is he's the perfect example of the character 765 00:54:12.800 --> 00:54:16.039 who you know, when everyone knows, oh, no one would ever try 766 00:54:16.119 --> 00:54:21.960 this hairbrained solution to something because we're all too smart to do that. He's 767 00:54:22.039 --> 00:54:24.760 not too smart to do that, which in any ways often means he's the 768 00:54:24.800 --> 00:54:29.639 smartest there because he's willing to. He is not even that he's not too 769 00:54:29.639 --> 00:54:32.039 smart, it's that he has never gone through the thinking that says oh, 770 00:54:32.079 --> 00:54:38.280 why would you do this? And so, plus he has such a magnetic 771 00:54:38.280 --> 00:54:44.079 effect on people that there are times when he goes into a huge mob or 772 00:54:44.079 --> 00:54:47.199 two mobs that are about to have a street riot and just tells them to 773 00:54:47.199 --> 00:54:51.719 go home and be better, and they all do because they all just they 774 00:54:51.760 --> 00:54:53.400 don't even understand why, but they all want to listen to him. Yeah, 775 00:54:53.400 --> 00:54:59.679 they're like, well he's earnest about it, right. They have this 776 00:54:59.679 --> 00:55:02.559 discus I should have where like Nabby and Colin, who are the comic relief 777 00:55:02.559 --> 00:55:07.119 guards, are like, so we could go out there they're about to start 778 00:55:07.119 --> 00:55:08.800 a riot. What would Captain what would Carrot do? And they're like, 779 00:55:08.840 --> 00:55:12.679 well, he'd go out there and tell him to shut up and be better 780 00:55:12.719 --> 00:55:15.119 people like you're saying and they're like, what did that happened to us? 781 00:55:15.239 --> 00:55:17.880 They're like, well, we'd find our heads and the like it's separate from 782 00:55:17.880 --> 00:55:20.960 our bodies and the gutter. They're not going to stand for this crap. 783 00:55:21.639 --> 00:55:25.480 And so yeah, because the world is simple to him, right, we 784 00:55:25.519 --> 00:55:29.280 could just be better people. You can make this choice, he says, 785 00:55:29.480 --> 00:55:32.159 why wouldn't you make this choice to be a better person? And they're like, 786 00:55:32.320 --> 00:55:37.559 I, because this you know, ethnic group is my enemy. This 787 00:55:37.760 --> 00:55:42.519 other we're against the species Trolls and dwarves have always fought. And he's like, 788 00:55:43.719 --> 00:55:45.920 yeah, but you don't have to, Like, this is a choice 789 00:55:46.320 --> 00:55:51.400 to choose better, choose different, And like I said, he moves in 790 00:55:51.440 --> 00:55:54.280 straight lines. Where everybody else thinks in a like they want to get to 791 00:55:54.320 --> 00:55:57.679 this point and they have to go through something else to get there. He 792 00:55:57.719 --> 00:56:04.519 just goes directly to the point. Yeah, And it's he and Vimes are 793 00:56:04.559 --> 00:56:07.480 the They both will accept largely anyone into the Watch, and they accept people 794 00:56:07.480 --> 00:56:14.960 as people for very different reasons. Right, he believes in people. Carrot 795 00:56:15.039 --> 00:56:17.119 is idealistic. He believes in people. He believes that you can choose better, 796 00:56:17.159 --> 00:56:21.360 you can choose to be good. Vimes is a misanthrope. He believes 797 00:56:21.360 --> 00:56:27.880 that everybody is terrible. Right, and so when when he gets like they're 798 00:56:27.920 --> 00:56:37.719 like, well why are you what's the quote? U? There were Vimes 799 00:56:37.719 --> 00:56:40.079 closed his eyes and thought about cigar smoke and flowing drink and laconic voices. 800 00:56:40.440 --> 00:56:44.599 There were people who'd steal money from people, fair enough, that was just 801 00:56:44.719 --> 00:56:46.719 theft. But there were people who, with one easy word, would steal 802 00:56:46.719 --> 00:56:52.199 the humanity from people. That was something else. The point was, well, 803 00:56:52.280 --> 00:56:55.000 he didn't like dwarfs controls, but he didn't like anyone very much. 804 00:56:55.639 --> 00:56:59.679 The point was that he moved in their company every day, and he had 805 00:56:59.719 --> 00:57:01.960 a to dislike them. The point was that no fat idiot had the right 806 00:57:02.000 --> 00:57:06.760 to say things like that because somebody had literally just dismissed the humanity of all 807 00:57:06.800 --> 00:57:09.519 the dwarves and trolls that he worked with. It called them technically the same 808 00:57:09.559 --> 00:57:13.679 things that Vimes calls them. But Vimes will tell that to them to their 809 00:57:13.719 --> 00:57:16.719 face and then work with them. Right. This person won't even go go 810 00:57:16.800 --> 00:57:20.159 near them. He's a noble person, just dismissing them out of hand. 811 00:57:20.719 --> 00:57:22.719 Yeah, And I think it's part of why Vibes and Carrot work so well 812 00:57:22.760 --> 00:57:25.440 together and why they have so much respect for each other, you know, 813 00:57:25.599 --> 00:57:30.400 and why Carrot will always listen to Vibes even though Vimes is his polar opposite. 814 00:57:30.639 --> 00:57:34.360 And Vimes learned that he can use Carrot for things that he could never 815 00:57:34.440 --> 00:57:37.840 do or no one else in the Watch can do. And one thing I 816 00:57:37.880 --> 00:57:39.440 think that I love most about Carrot, and it plays very much into what 817 00:57:39.480 --> 00:57:46.320 you're saying there about stealing the humanity is it because Carrot always sees the humanity 818 00:57:46.320 --> 00:57:51.199 and others that the personhood and others. You know, one of the things 819 00:57:51.199 --> 00:57:54.639 that happens is he gives people a chance to do better. Yeah, and 820 00:57:54.760 --> 00:58:00.360 you know in in shows that are about you know, cops and cremins or 821 00:58:00.440 --> 00:58:04.119 people who are doing bad things. You know, it's almost a trope now, 822 00:58:04.519 --> 00:58:07.039 but I think there's some great examples to it. Loki is a great 823 00:58:07.039 --> 00:58:08.079 example. But also, you know, in the Wire you get this, 824 00:58:08.119 --> 00:58:12.719 a lot of people sort of say, well, you all expected me to 825 00:58:12.760 --> 00:58:15.559 be a villain, so I am a villainy And I think that's kind of 826 00:58:15.559 --> 00:58:21.880 That's the thing that Carrott subverts is when Carrott goes to you know, a 827 00:58:21.880 --> 00:58:23.840 bunch of the kind of street kids who are in gangs, aren't going to 828 00:58:23.880 --> 00:58:28.440 get into a big fight, and says, let's play soccer instead football in 829 00:58:28.480 --> 00:58:31.559 their world instead. You know, it is obvious, it is satire. 830 00:58:31.679 --> 00:58:35.480 It is not meant to be. This is a real thing that could happen, 831 00:58:36.239 --> 00:58:39.159 but it is an allegory for what does happen in in soccer leagues like 832 00:58:39.199 --> 00:58:43.079 that, or you know, sports leagues or anything where you say, hey, 833 00:58:43.079 --> 00:58:45.400 look the whole rest of the world looks at you as a street kid 834 00:58:45.440 --> 00:58:49.920 who's never going to be anything but a criminal and a menace. What if 835 00:58:49.960 --> 00:58:52.400 I look at you as someone who could be academic, who could be an 836 00:58:52.400 --> 00:58:55.159 athlete? You know what if I don't look at you through that lens and 837 00:58:55.280 --> 00:58:59.320 help you not to look at yourself through it? And that's that's what Carrott 838 00:58:59.360 --> 00:59:01.639 does again and again and again. Yeah, and that's his that's it. 839 00:59:01.800 --> 00:59:06.800 Like the whole arc of Feed of Clay. Feet of Clay's about our golems 840 00:59:06.840 --> 00:59:09.800 tools or are they people? Right? Yeah? And Cat sees exactly that. 841 00:59:09.840 --> 00:59:14.360 He sees the golems as people where nobody else does. Let's talk about 842 00:59:14.559 --> 00:59:15.840 because again this is this is all I gone on for a while, and 843 00:59:16.280 --> 00:59:19.440 um, we've referenced some of the books. Let's talk about two of the 844 00:59:19.480 --> 00:59:22.159 specific books as we kind of wrap up Jingo and Feet of Clay. Let's 845 00:59:22.159 --> 00:59:25.400 talk about Fee of Clay first. What's that give the like thirty second version 846 00:59:25.400 --> 00:59:29.000 of the plot of Fee Feet of Clay and what it's what it is trying 847 00:59:29.000 --> 00:59:35.320 to say the the a group of golems want to be free, they want 848 00:59:35.760 --> 00:59:37.519 that when they say what they want, they want respite, they want the 849 00:59:37.559 --> 00:59:42.840 ability to not be a hammer sometimes, and so they're treated as tools, 850 00:59:42.880 --> 00:59:45.320 and everyone treats them as tools they want and jets back up here. Yeah, 851 00:59:45.360 --> 00:59:51.239 the golems are um, there are no Jews in this world. Yes, 852 00:59:51.360 --> 00:59:55.039 but it's very much the Jewish myth. Yes, the go of clay 853 00:59:55.079 --> 01:00:00.079 that has been fashioned and then magic scrolls have been put into the head of 854 01:00:00.119 --> 01:00:04.679 the golem, which activated. But it is basically a robot, but a 855 01:00:04.760 --> 01:00:07.679 sentient one, yes, and one that as we learned. Yeah, and 856 01:00:07.719 --> 01:00:09.880 that's kind of the point, is that it is sentient in a way that 857 01:00:10.199 --> 01:00:14.159 its owners and masters don't want to think of it as such. Yes, 858 01:00:14.320 --> 01:00:16.480 And golems must have a master is one of the rules. And their kem 859 01:00:16.760 --> 01:00:20.199 in the in the words that are placed in their head to activate them. 860 01:00:20.760 --> 01:00:29.719 And so they make a master golem they and the master golem starts going mad 861 01:00:29.880 --> 01:00:32.000 and they have to figure the watch us to figure this out and figure out 862 01:00:32.000 --> 01:00:37.440 exactly what's going on with a big complicated plot against the Patrician and all this. 863 01:00:37.880 --> 01:00:45.000 But the big payoff is Carrot buys Dorfel, the golem from someone, 864 01:00:45.320 --> 01:00:47.920 takes the receipt and places it in Dorfel's head, and the receipt says, 865 01:00:49.000 --> 01:00:53.400 the bearer of this owns this golem. He takes it and places it with 866 01:00:53.480 --> 01:01:00.760 the chem in Dorfel's head, and now Dorfel is free. He owns himself. 867 01:01:00.079 --> 01:01:06.920 The bearer of this receipt owns this golem. And the question that they 868 01:01:06.920 --> 01:01:09.840 ask over and over is is the golem a tool or is it a person? 869 01:01:09.880 --> 01:01:13.960 And they say that golm killed someone, and they say that that golem 870 01:01:13.960 --> 01:01:17.920 cannot be a tool. Tools are not responsible for how they're used. If 871 01:01:17.920 --> 01:01:21.719 you hit someone with the head and the hammer in the head with a hammer, 872 01:01:21.960 --> 01:01:24.239 the hammer is not put on trial. If you order a golem to 873 01:01:24.280 --> 01:01:29.199 kill someone, the golem should not be destroyed for that human, because the 874 01:01:29.239 --> 01:01:31.840 Golm can't choose not to do it. And they point this out over and 875 01:01:31.920 --> 01:01:36.239 over that the golems are being they have a double standard. They look like 876 01:01:36.320 --> 01:01:38.719 people, so they're treated like people except when it's convenient to not treat them 877 01:01:38.760 --> 01:01:45.239 like people, right, and so it's a book about treating someone like like 878 01:01:45.400 --> 01:01:51.000 Vetnari says near the end, you must destroy the golem doorfall that you know 879 01:01:51.360 --> 01:01:54.039 is looking at joining the watch, and Vims goes absolutely not, and Fetner 880 01:01:54.199 --> 01:02:00.039 goes, I believe that I gave you an order, and Vimes goes he 881 01:02:00.039 --> 01:02:05.880 thinks he's alive, and that's good enough for me. Yeah. And it 882 01:02:05.960 --> 01:02:12.880 is such a just like encapsulation of the they think this whatever, thinks they're 883 01:02:12.920 --> 01:02:15.519 alive, they think they're a person. Therefore we have to treat them as 884 01:02:15.519 --> 01:02:21.039 such, because we have to trust the internal experiences of people. And this 885 01:02:21.119 --> 01:02:25.039 is I think the brilliance of what he's doing in the Discworld novels is this 886 01:02:25.119 --> 01:02:30.920 is very clearly a commentary on actual human slavery. It's very clearly a commentary 887 01:02:30.000 --> 01:02:34.480 on wage slavery and the idea of like, you know, the factory owner 888 01:02:34.480 --> 01:02:37.360 who sees the people who work for them as just you know, machines. 889 01:02:37.679 --> 01:02:42.000 And I think that's you know, look at the strike that's happening right now, 890 01:02:42.840 --> 01:02:45.079 both with you know, the the actors, the writers, but also 891 01:02:45.079 --> 01:02:49.639 the Starbucks, the Amazon strikes, all of those things. Yep. It's 892 01:02:49.679 --> 01:02:52.320 also a commentary on science fiction. You know, Yes, the golem is 893 01:02:52.400 --> 01:02:55.760 data being put on trial or does he is he owned by the Federation, 894 01:02:55.920 --> 01:03:00.719 does he own himself? It is every robotic store that you and I have 895 01:03:00.719 --> 01:03:05.039 talked about frequently, does AI have its own sentience, and thus does it 896 01:03:05.159 --> 01:03:09.039 exist as a person in a society or is it just a tool? Yeah? 897 01:03:09.079 --> 01:03:14.679 And then the golems show up later because Dorfel makes the point near the 898 01:03:14.760 --> 01:03:16.039 end of the book. He's like, you'll hire me as a watchman? 899 01:03:16.960 --> 01:03:21.079 And Vimes goes, really, and Dorfel goes, and you will pay me 900 01:03:21.119 --> 01:03:23.800 twice as much as anyone else. I don't sleep, I don't rest. 901 01:03:25.239 --> 01:03:30.679 I'm a bark at double the price. And if Vimes goes, well, 902 01:03:30.679 --> 01:03:32.519 what do you want to do with money? Like you don't own clothes? 903 01:03:34.119 --> 01:03:36.119 Like what do you do? Like if you're going to work all the time, 904 01:03:36.159 --> 01:03:37.880 what you're gonna do with the money? He goes, I will save 905 01:03:37.960 --> 01:03:42.400 up, and I will buy the golm clutes from the pickle factory. And 906 01:03:42.440 --> 01:03:45.800 then he and I will save up, and Vimes goes really, and the 907 01:03:46.639 --> 01:03:51.719 line later the Golem Trust, which is the limited liability corporation the golems make 908 01:03:51.760 --> 01:03:55.320 to buy golems. Their motto is by our own hand or buy no hand. 909 01:03:57.119 --> 01:04:00.159 Yeah, right, which is also like, if you've ever ever heard 910 01:04:00.199 --> 01:04:04.079 the terms white saviorism or anything like that, the idea that like it, 911 01:04:04.440 --> 01:04:10.559 you know, those of us who are in overclasses can help the people who 912 01:04:10.559 --> 01:04:13.000 are fighting oppression, you know, I mean all of us, I think 913 01:04:13.039 --> 01:04:15.559 are oppression in some ways. But like looking at something, you know, 914 01:04:15.880 --> 01:04:18.360 for example, the white person, I can help the fight against racism, 915 01:04:18.920 --> 01:04:21.360 but it's going to be need to be led by people of color, and 916 01:04:21.400 --> 01:04:24.679 I need to listen to them what they're taking to do. And it's just 917 01:04:24.719 --> 01:04:29.280 such a that by our hand alone. I mean that that's been quoted by 918 01:04:29.400 --> 01:04:30.840 all sorts of movements through our history. Yes, you know, saying like 919 01:04:31.159 --> 01:04:34.199 we don't want to be saved by someone else. We need to do the 920 01:04:34.199 --> 01:04:38.440 work ourselves, and we want you to help and get the hell out of 921 01:04:38.440 --> 01:04:42.719 the way we want you know, we have to be or you can't empower 922 01:04:42.880 --> 01:04:45.159 you. No one can empower someone else, you know. Yes, Like 923 01:04:46.239 --> 01:04:49.679 you can't actually give somebody freedom. All you can do is take it away, 924 01:04:49.960 --> 01:04:54.159 right, right, And so you can you can say, you know, 925 01:04:54.599 --> 01:05:00.159 we talk about freeing the slaves, Yes, like they were they we're 926 01:05:00.239 --> 01:05:05.079 freed, but in reality they there's there's a way to phrase this, right, 927 01:05:05.719 --> 01:05:10.239 because their freedom is inherent in what they are. Right. Yeah, 928 01:05:10.440 --> 01:05:14.320 I think I think the ideas that like I can't give someone freedom I can 929 01:05:14.320 --> 01:05:16.199 just stop taking away their freedom, yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, 930 01:05:16.199 --> 01:05:21.519 that's a good way to yeah. Um, and then and then you know, 931 01:05:21.519 --> 01:05:24.199 and then we can do a hell of a lot to help them as 932 01:05:24.239 --> 01:05:27.239 they move right, yeah, but yeah, yeah yeah. Um. So 933 01:05:27.280 --> 01:05:29.400 that's feet of Clay. Let's talk about Jingo for a bit, and we're 934 01:05:29.400 --> 01:05:30.920 going to finish up with something that a lot of people who know disc world 935 01:05:30.920 --> 01:05:33.360 in the night Watch are probably wondering why in the world we haven't talked about 936 01:05:33.559 --> 01:05:38.639 the vibes economic theory of Boots. But let's talk about Jingo for a bit, 937 01:05:38.679 --> 01:05:43.559 because Jingo is one of my favorite of the night Watch books. And 938 01:05:43.559 --> 01:05:46.199 it's interesting because it's I wonder where it fell in and not not to get 939 01:05:46.280 --> 01:05:50.320 us under the tangent of it, but it's the first time that I wanted 940 01:05:50.360 --> 01:05:55.599 to look at a map and and when googling for maps and was frustrated because 941 01:05:55.639 --> 01:06:00.239 you said there aren't that many, Um, because I want to know where 942 01:06:00.239 --> 01:06:06.039 on More Park was in regard to this other country called Clatch and because they 943 01:06:06.079 --> 01:06:10.679 wind up having almost a war with it. And the book is all about 944 01:06:10.719 --> 01:06:15.119 this, and it is very clearly a commentary on the war that is happening 945 01:06:15.159 --> 01:06:19.280 at that point in Iraq and the generalized wars in the Middle East and the 946 01:06:19.400 --> 01:06:26.239 overall attitude of white people towards Arabs and Muslims, and not that those two 947 01:06:26.280 --> 01:06:30.039 things are the same, but it's about Islamophobia. It's about Arab you know, 948 01:06:30.599 --> 01:06:34.039 arabo phobia. It's about the fear of difference. And it's about fighting 949 01:06:34.039 --> 01:06:40.639 a war over a resource. Right, So Jingo the there's a circle ce 950 01:06:41.079 --> 01:06:43.960 on more Porkas on one side, Clatches on the other side, and it's 951 01:06:43.960 --> 01:06:46.800 a c that they that separates them, and an island raises up in the 952 01:06:46.800 --> 01:06:53.159 middle, and then everybody decides to fight over it. It's the plot of 953 01:06:53.199 --> 01:07:00.840 the book is basically everybody goes mad for the millitary. But Atimore Pork doesn't 954 01:07:00.880 --> 01:07:05.599 have a military. They're an economic superpower. They're not a military superpower or 955 01:07:05.679 --> 01:07:13.239 they're superpower. There's economic power they and so they have private regiment raising and 956 01:07:13.280 --> 01:07:16.360 then private regiments go off to Clatch to try to wage war against them, 957 01:07:16.800 --> 01:07:25.519 and the book has simultaneously a great ending and like so he arrests both armies. 958 01:07:25.960 --> 01:07:28.320 He says, he says, it's got to be illegal to start a 959 01:07:28.320 --> 01:07:31.760 war, and they they're like, it actually isn't and he goes, that's 960 01:07:32.039 --> 01:07:35.559 no, that can't be true. Let's figure it out, like if a 961 01:07:35.599 --> 01:07:39.440 war is wrong, it should be illegal. There should be a law bigger 962 01:07:39.440 --> 01:07:47.039 than a country's law. Which is a definitely a commentary on how oversized powers 963 01:07:47.400 --> 01:07:53.320 right in the world will be We'll just ignore the laws of everywhere else right, 964 01:07:53.360 --> 01:07:56.760 which was actively happening at the time. There have the actions that were 965 01:07:56.760 --> 01:08:00.119 taken at the time he wrote it, because it was when we were no 966 01:08:00.159 --> 01:08:02.000 longer officially at war with Iraq, but we were bombing them from time to 967 01:08:02.079 --> 01:08:05.719 time, and certainly things were happening in Palestine and other parts in the Middle 968 01:08:05.719 --> 01:08:09.880 East, and the international community a lot of it was outraged, and there 969 01:08:09.880 --> 01:08:13.039 were people saying like, oh, if only we could arrest Tony Blair and 970 01:08:13.079 --> 01:08:16.159 Bill Clinton for international war crimes. And of course you can't do that. 971 01:08:16.359 --> 01:08:18.560 You went there, they're too big for it, and yeah, this book 972 01:08:18.600 --> 01:08:23.279 is very much a commentary on yeah. And it's very funny because historically that 973 01:08:23.399 --> 01:08:27.560 wasn't a big deal. Like pre World War One, you started a war 974 01:08:27.640 --> 01:08:30.760 and you took some territory and that was considered legit, and so it's a. 975 01:08:30.960 --> 01:08:34.479 It's this weird like we're projecting our own Like if you look back, 976 01:08:35.479 --> 01:08:40.199 the Crimean War was like that, like somebody wanted to take the Crimea and 977 01:08:40.239 --> 01:08:43.479 they did and they kept it. What the hell I wanted to take Texas 978 01:08:43.479 --> 01:08:46.359 in the Southwest, so we went to war. Yeah, exactly. These 979 01:08:46.399 --> 01:08:54.319 were just things that happened internationally a pre twentieth century and so it's this like 980 01:08:54.560 --> 01:08:59.800 projection of our philosophy on national borders into a fantasy world which is a reflection 981 01:08:59.840 --> 01:09:05.119 of pre twentieth century technology. So it's just a it's just really really interesting 982 01:09:05.159 --> 01:09:12.239 to think about it. And it's again interesting how how he does the allegories 983 01:09:12.279 --> 01:09:15.359 because like, for example, the people from Clatch are very clearly meant to 984 01:09:15.399 --> 01:09:20.840 be, like I said, representatives of Arab countries down to a lot of 985 01:09:20.840 --> 01:09:26.119 like the insults that we like they all with turbans on their head, and 986 01:09:26.199 --> 01:09:29.439 the ethnic slurs that the people they are are very I'm not gonna say them, 987 01:09:29.439 --> 01:09:31.000 but a very similar the the you know about the thing they have on 988 01:09:31.039 --> 01:09:34.560 their head. And there's some great again where Carrot or some of the other 989 01:09:34.640 --> 01:09:39.239 character Carrot is doing it from place of innocence vibes are doing it from place 990 01:09:39.239 --> 01:09:43.039 of actively wanting to mock people. But what Vibes will do is he will 991 01:09:43.079 --> 01:09:46.199 pretend that and so they'll be like, oh, well, so what's wrong 992 01:09:46.199 --> 01:09:48.960 with the people of Clatch Oh they do this thing. He'll be hmm, 993 01:09:49.359 --> 01:09:51.359 don't we do this thing? Well, well no, no, no, 994 01:09:51.479 --> 01:09:55.399 but it's different because this, well, but don't we do that? And 995 01:09:55.439 --> 01:09:58.960 it's really showing just the incredible hypocrisy of all of this. Yeah. Um. 996 01:10:00.439 --> 01:10:00.960 Similarly, one of thing, as you said, one of the things 997 01:10:00.960 --> 01:10:05.279 that happens in the book is because the city doesn't have a military, they 998 01:10:05.319 --> 01:10:10.600 go back to this ancient time idea where all of the noble houses have to 999 01:10:10.680 --> 01:10:15.000 raise their own military, and Vimes is just a gas. Vimes is often 1000 01:10:15.039 --> 01:10:16.680 kind of the man outside because, like you said, he grew up in 1001 01:10:16.720 --> 01:10:20.239 the city. He should have all the same prejudices and ideas. He just 1002 01:10:20.319 --> 01:10:26.199 doesn't, and so he's watching with horrors. You know, the butler that 1003 01:10:26.239 --> 01:10:29.319 works for his wife, who's very rich connecually works for him. That's a 1004 01:10:29.319 --> 01:10:32.920 whole other set of stories. You know, He's like, well, I 1005 01:10:32.960 --> 01:10:35.439 want to go join the military. It's like why, It's well, they 1006 01:10:35.520 --> 01:10:39.960 all look so smart in their their pretty uniforms and things like this, and 1007 01:10:40.000 --> 01:10:43.279 it's just the red and way uniform for the gold frogging, right. Yeah, 1008 01:10:43.439 --> 01:10:48.279 it's it's all such beautiful satire of everything about militarism, about nationalism, 1009 01:10:48.279 --> 01:10:54.039 about jingoism. Quite literally, one thing I looked is it kind of made 1010 01:10:54.079 --> 01:10:59.159 me think about the origin of the word jingo and it's from I think it's 1011 01:10:59.199 --> 01:11:01.520 the Crimean War. I'm not sure it might be earlier, but a song 1012 01:11:01.600 --> 01:11:06.079 that was sung by people who had kind of like come, you know, 1013 01:11:06.119 --> 01:11:10.239 we're in one of those private armies. And the line of the song is 1014 01:11:10.479 --> 01:11:13.960 we don't want to fight, but by jingo if we do, we've got 1015 01:11:13.960 --> 01:11:15.039 the ships, we've got the men, we've got the money too, And 1016 01:11:15.039 --> 01:11:19.279 so it's very much a like, look at how cool and awesome our country 1017 01:11:19.399 --> 01:11:21.880 is. We wouldn't want to fight, but of course if we do, 1018 01:11:21.960 --> 01:11:27.279 we'll win because we're best, which is the very definition of Jingoism. Yeah, 1019 01:11:27.319 --> 01:11:31.640 and they they it's definitely again from a British lens, right, from 1020 01:11:31.640 --> 01:11:35.000 a colonialism lens of you know, we're gonna show Johnny Clatchy and what for 1021 01:11:35.279 --> 01:11:39.159 we're gonna you know, he'll run at the side of the cold steel in 1022 01:11:39.199 --> 01:11:44.640 our hands. And then the question that gets asked is the Clatcheans are an 1023 01:11:44.640 --> 01:11:50.680 older empire, right, and they're also like they've been pacifying their own external 1024 01:11:50.680 --> 01:11:57.880 They're an actual empire, they've been militarily pacifying. They're they're different sections, 1025 01:11:58.279 --> 01:12:01.880 they're diverse, multi ethnic empire. They've been doing this for a long time. 1026 01:12:02.279 --> 01:12:05.840 What do you think that they're like, do you think that they're going 1027 01:12:05.880 --> 01:12:12.439 to be threatened by our you know, untrained regiments. What's your plan here? 1028 01:12:13.680 --> 01:12:16.720 Yeah, it's it's just beautifully done and it points out it's it's not 1029 01:12:16.960 --> 01:12:19.880 all I think it's easy in this kind of case to be like, oh 1030 01:12:19.960 --> 01:12:24.119 so I'm going to creak our side, critique our side, been making our 1031 01:12:24.199 --> 01:12:26.439 side bad, in their side good, and think No, there's as you 1032 01:12:26.439 --> 01:12:30.279 said, he rests both armies and the resource part of it is, as 1033 01:12:30.359 --> 01:12:33.239 you said, there are opposin ends of the Circle Sea. One of the 1034 01:12:33.279 --> 01:12:39.279 things that happens is that every thousand years or so, this island rises up 1035 01:12:39.319 --> 01:12:42.279 from out of the sea and it turns out that it's kind of an Atlantis. 1036 01:12:42.319 --> 01:12:45.680 It's sunk long ago, but it's under this bubble of gas that every 1037 01:12:45.680 --> 01:12:48.039 now and that expands it off that it rises up, and it's so all 1038 01:12:48.079 --> 01:12:51.199 of a sudden, both of these groups want this resource and they're claiming that 1039 01:12:51.239 --> 01:12:56.000 it belongs to them. It's very much supposed to be a stand in for 1040 01:12:56.039 --> 01:12:59.600 oil or the other resources people fight over, but in this case, again 1041 01:12:59.640 --> 01:13:01.119 the pair you have it, it's completely useless because we all know it's going 1042 01:13:01.159 --> 01:13:03.840 to sink back into the ocean pretty soon. But it doesn't matter. They 1043 01:13:03.880 --> 01:13:06.319 don't want to fight over it. Well, but and they don't necessarily know 1044 01:13:06.359 --> 01:13:10.079 that it's going to sink into the ocean. That's the other thing is that 1045 01:13:10.279 --> 01:13:14.119 Nari figures that out and he's like, ah, cool, we should let 1046 01:13:14.119 --> 01:13:16.239 them have it. We should get concessions from them, make a deal, 1047 01:13:17.000 --> 01:13:20.640 and then they pay us, we walk away, and then it goes into 1048 01:13:20.640 --> 01:13:25.840 the ocean and we win. Like that's his that's his grand plan, right, 1049 01:13:27.720 --> 01:13:29.479 And everybody has like, no, no, no, we can win 1050 01:13:29.479 --> 01:13:32.279 a war. And it's also about the waste of war because they're going to 1051 01:13:32.359 --> 01:13:35.920 waste more resources on this war than that island could ever give them. Yeah, 1052 01:13:35.960 --> 01:13:41.319 right, And it's like a lot of the time wars like that where 1053 01:13:41.319 --> 01:13:46.319 you burn more resources than you gain by conquering the people right very much. 1054 01:13:46.359 --> 01:13:50.079 So now there's one last thing I do want to talk about, and then 1055 01:13:50.079 --> 01:13:54.479 we're gonna have a Patreon section. But I want to say quickly, as 1056 01:13:54.560 --> 01:13:59.199 part of the strike, um and he's listening to me talk about It's more 1057 01:13:59.239 --> 01:14:02.800 on a most in Star Wars episode to put out with Riki Hashi about the 1058 01:14:02.840 --> 01:14:05.439 strike. But as part of the strike, one of the things I'm going 1059 01:14:05.479 --> 01:14:10.159 to do is that twenty five percent of what I take in from Patreon is 1060 01:14:10.159 --> 01:14:13.800 going to get donated to the fund that's being used to help the people on 1061 01:14:13.840 --> 01:14:15.840 strike and help all the other people who are affected. So if you ever 1062 01:14:15.840 --> 01:14:19.920 thought about joining the Patreon, this is a great time. I go into 1063 01:14:19.920 --> 01:14:23.720 more of it again on that Star Wars podcast. I will write about it 1064 01:14:23.760 --> 01:14:26.600 more and the Patreon, But if you want to think about it's a great 1065 01:14:26.600 --> 01:14:28.399 thing to do. But of course, if that's not where you are economically, 1066 01:14:28.479 --> 01:14:30.560 or if it's not something you're into, that's of course fine too. 1067 01:14:30.359 --> 01:14:32.880 But we will have a Patreon section where we're gonna talk more about some of 1068 01:14:32.880 --> 01:14:36.840 the other discworld things. But here let's finish up with I think what is 1069 01:14:36.880 --> 01:14:42.920 I think probably my favorite part of the in the satirical world, making a 1070 01:14:43.039 --> 01:14:48.279 very important point that libraries of economic economists have tried to write. But I 1071 01:14:48.279 --> 01:14:54.199 think Pratchett captures so perfectly, which is the Samuel Vimes theory of boots, 1072 01:14:54.199 --> 01:14:58.279 which is that basically it is expensive to be poor. Can you explain what 1073 01:14:58.279 --> 01:15:00.760 this means? Yeah, so the quote is the reason that the rich were 1074 01:15:00.840 --> 01:15:05.640 so rich, Vimes reasons was because they managed to spend less money. Take 1075 01:15:05.720 --> 01:15:10.800 boots. For example, he earned thirty eight dollars a month plus allowances. 1076 01:15:11.319 --> 01:15:15.640 A really good pair of leather boots cost fifty dollars. But an affordable pair 1077 01:15:15.680 --> 01:15:17.800 of boots which were a sort of okay for a season or two and then 1078 01:15:17.920 --> 01:15:23.319 leaked like hell when the cardboard gave out, cost about ten dollars. Those 1079 01:15:23.359 --> 01:15:26.840 were the kind of boots Vimes always bought, and he worn until the souls 1080 01:15:26.840 --> 01:15:30.000 were so thin that he could tell where he was where he wasn't on morepork 1081 01:15:30.079 --> 01:15:32.920 on a foggy night, by the feel of the cobbles. But the thing 1082 01:15:32.920 --> 01:15:38.840 that was that good boots lasted for years and years. A man who could 1083 01:15:38.840 --> 01:15:42.439 afford fifty dollars had a pair of boots that still be keeping his feet dry 1084 01:15:42.439 --> 01:15:46.039 in ten years time, while a poor man who would only afford cheap boots 1085 01:15:46.199 --> 01:15:50.000 would have spent one hundred dollars on boots in the same time and would still 1086 01:15:50.079 --> 01:15:59.119 have wet feet. Yeah. Yeah, there's a theory that makes so much 1087 01:15:59.119 --> 01:16:03.199 sense. It's the idea that when you don't have disposable income and you're spending 1088 01:16:03.199 --> 01:16:08.960 literally paycheck to paycheck, that means you can't afford better things. And so 1089 01:16:10.720 --> 01:16:14.479 I was going to say, not even that, just look at at the 1090 01:16:14.600 --> 01:16:17.159 cost of the same goods for a poor person or a rich person. If 1091 01:16:17.199 --> 01:16:20.760 you have money to start and you want to rent a place or own a 1092 01:16:20.800 --> 01:16:25.000 place, say that your place would have a thousand dollars a mortgage a month, 1093 01:16:25.279 --> 01:16:28.000 right that you want to rent just for a nice round made up number. 1094 01:16:28.720 --> 01:16:31.399 If I'm renting from somebody, they still pay that thousand dollars mortgage, 1095 01:16:31.399 --> 01:16:33.439 and then I pay them, I don't know, a couple hundred bucks on 1096 01:16:33.479 --> 01:16:36.960 top, call it twelve hundred dollars in order to rent the same space that 1097 01:16:36.960 --> 01:16:41.880 they're paying a thousand dollars a month for for mortgage. It costs me more 1098 01:16:42.439 --> 01:16:45.479 because I didn't have the money upfront for a down payment. On the house. 1099 01:16:45.880 --> 01:16:48.000 Yep. Plus they're building an equity in a way that you're not exactly, 1100 01:16:48.359 --> 01:16:54.479 and so it costs more to it to be poor. It just there's 1101 01:16:54.520 --> 01:17:00.000 one hundred different ways, like the Boots thing of buying cheap repeatedly like yeah 1102 01:17:00.039 --> 01:17:03.560 to me. My favorite example is healthcare in this country, because if you 1103 01:17:03.560 --> 01:17:09.319 can afford good insurance, then yeah, there's an insurance cost, but a 1104 01:17:10.000 --> 01:17:15.600 if disaster strikes, you're covered. But more importantly, disasters a lot less 1105 01:17:15.640 --> 01:17:19.039 likely to strike because you can afford to go get regular checkups, you know. 1106 01:17:19.319 --> 01:17:24.319 Whereas if you're the sub person who is only going to the emergency room 1107 01:17:24.760 --> 01:17:28.079 when you're literally like you know, on death's door or something like that. 1108 01:17:28.560 --> 01:17:32.439 Yeah, often it's because you have, you know, a cancer in your 1109 01:17:32.520 --> 01:17:35.840 jaw that if you've been able to see a dentist regularly, would have been 1110 01:17:35.880 --> 01:17:40.239 prevented exactly any of the other kind of thing. There are so many things 1111 01:17:40.279 --> 01:17:44.279 where if you can pay more money up front, it's going to protect your 1112 01:17:44.279 --> 01:17:47.039 health, it's going to protect your house's connect your car, all these things 1113 01:17:47.119 --> 01:17:53.600 where the system has been set up that it is incredibly expensive to be poor, 1114 01:17:54.279 --> 01:17:58.720 which means that it's almost impossible to you know, oh, just save 1115 01:17:58.880 --> 01:18:00.640 enough to buy a house, or save enough to buy a new stute so 1116 01:18:00.680 --> 01:18:03.079 you can get a better job, or say you enough to go to school, 1117 01:18:03.159 --> 01:18:05.399 or any of these things. And this isn't to say that people don't 1118 01:18:05.439 --> 01:18:09.479 do that, because this this is a thing. People save up for these 1119 01:18:09.479 --> 01:18:14.039 things. But there's there's a there's a there's a barrier, there's a gradient. 1120 01:18:14.119 --> 01:18:15.479 It's harder to get out of it than it is to stay out of 1121 01:18:15.520 --> 01:18:18.359 it. Right, would be would be my other half? If you start 1122 01:18:18.359 --> 01:18:21.520 with if if you start somebody ahead, right, if they have enough money 1123 01:18:21.520 --> 01:18:25.319 for a downpayment on a house, they means that that two hundred dollars a 1124 01:18:25.359 --> 01:18:29.119 month they get to not just build equity, but bank up to do other 1125 01:18:29.159 --> 01:18:31.560 things. And then so at the end of that they both have the equity 1126 01:18:31.560 --> 01:18:34.439 they've built in the house and the money that they've saved from that intervening time, 1127 01:18:34.600 --> 01:18:38.119 and they might have to pay for big house repairs. But here's the 1128 01:18:38.159 --> 01:18:41.600 secret they had to do with it. Anyways, all the things that that 1129 01:18:41.960 --> 01:18:45.119 you have to do in these situations, the situations where you're buying repeatedly crappy 1130 01:18:45.159 --> 01:18:48.279 shoes, right instead of one really good pair of shoes that'll last you for 1131 01:18:48.319 --> 01:18:53.239 a longer time, like all of these choices that you that you have to 1132 01:18:53.279 --> 01:18:56.800 make make it. It's a trap, right, It's it's a steep gradient 1133 01:18:56.800 --> 01:18:59.039 to get out, but once you're out, it's really hard to slide back 1134 01:18:59.039 --> 01:19:02.640 down. It's one direction. Yeah, yeah. And I think one of 1135 01:19:02.680 --> 01:19:08.079 the other points to it is, and this is very clearly stated. Vimes 1136 01:19:08.119 --> 01:19:12.399 develops this theory because of the time he spends with the rich. And this 1137 01:19:12.439 --> 01:19:15.760 isn't part because, through a hilarious sequence of event, since he detailed in 1138 01:19:15.920 --> 01:19:18.920 one of the earliest novels, he winds up marrying Lady Sybil, who is 1139 01:19:19.119 --> 01:19:23.600 the richest woman in the city, and so he spends all this time with 1140 01:19:23.640 --> 01:19:27.560 the rich, and so part of what he's saying is this theory wouldn't have 1141 01:19:27.600 --> 01:19:30.279 occurred to him until he spent time with them. And part of where I 1142 01:19:30.319 --> 01:19:33.760 go with that is and again, what I'm about to say, I think 1143 01:19:33.800 --> 01:19:39.119 can be used in a very kind of disparaging, oh the poorer, stupid 1144 01:19:39.119 --> 01:19:42.279 way. That's not what I'm saying in the slightest, but I think it's 1145 01:19:42.279 --> 01:19:46.960 important to understand that if you have lived in a situation where no one in 1146 01:19:47.000 --> 01:19:51.520 your family for generations has been able to do these kind of things. Just 1147 01:19:51.560 --> 01:19:58.039 the idea of maybe I should save money to do something in the future is 1148 01:19:58.159 --> 01:20:01.960 ridiculous because it's just it's not something that anyone you know has ever been able 1149 01:20:02.000 --> 01:20:05.000 to do. So maybe the chance that you start to get a little bit 1150 01:20:05.039 --> 01:20:10.279 more wealth and you have the chance to do so, the idea of it 1151 01:20:10.319 --> 01:20:13.880 probably is hard to even imagine. Well, and oftentimes you have to pay 1152 01:20:13.920 --> 01:20:15.720 your way out of a problem. Right, You'll you'll have saved up some 1153 01:20:15.720 --> 01:20:19.199 amount of money. You know, you'll you'll manage to somehow through some miracle 1154 01:20:19.239 --> 01:20:24.079 of banked a thousand bucks that's sitting when you're poor. And then you know 1155 01:20:24.159 --> 01:20:26.479 your car breaks down and you have to pay for it. Well, that 1156 01:20:26.520 --> 01:20:31.159 wipes you out. And so the idea saving isn't. Saving isn't a thing 1157 01:20:31.640 --> 01:20:35.239 that lets you get out, right, because any time that you save up 1158 01:20:35.239 --> 01:20:38.800 money, it'll get wiped up by something. And you know it because you 1159 01:20:38.800 --> 01:20:42.279 can't save enough to get ahead. And so it's even enough to get ahead, 1160 01:20:42.279 --> 01:20:44.800 and you can't get you can't you don't have enough to get insurance against 1161 01:20:44.800 --> 01:20:46.359 those things that could go wrong, right, And so like, if you 1162 01:20:46.600 --> 01:20:49.520 if you have if you have a nest egg, if you have you know, 1163 01:20:49.920 --> 01:20:54.479 ten thousand dollars banked, you can write out all of these problems, 1164 01:20:54.560 --> 01:20:56.720 right, You can take a dip on the money and save back up to 1165 01:20:56.800 --> 01:21:00.720 your your banked amount. And I'm picking arbitrary, entirely numbers for all of 1166 01:21:00.800 --> 01:21:02.520 these, Like the numbers are different for different places, at different times, 1167 01:21:02.520 --> 01:21:08.000 for different people. I'm literally just picking nice round numbers because I know that 1168 01:21:08.000 --> 01:21:12.319 that's just easier to parse in your head. But and so like like it 1169 01:21:12.399 --> 01:21:15.279 sounds to some people that'd be like, ten thousand dollars is a whole lot 1170 01:21:15.279 --> 01:21:16.840 of money to have banked, And other people will be like, that's like, 1171 01:21:16.960 --> 01:21:20.239 that's nothing. Like I'll have a disaster that makes me buy a car, 1172 01:21:20.640 --> 01:21:27.520 and I'll be like right, But the line still holds that if you 1173 01:21:27.600 --> 01:21:31.640 are if you're stuck in the poverty trap, especially, it's very very difficult 1174 01:21:31.680 --> 01:21:35.239 to save your way out, to grind your way out, to buy your 1175 01:21:35.239 --> 01:21:42.159 way out. And it's a mentality too, because you think poor because like 1176 01:21:42.239 --> 01:21:45.239 you're planning, horizon is so short. If you had a thousand bucks in 1177 01:21:45.319 --> 01:21:46.880 your poor you'll buy yourself a bunch of good things now, because it won't 1178 01:21:46.920 --> 01:21:49.680 last anyways. It'll get wiped out in it, It'll get wiped out the 1179 01:21:49.720 --> 01:21:54.640 next time something happens regardless. Yeah, exactly. Again, that's not always 1180 01:21:54.640 --> 01:21:57.800 true, but it certainly can be true quite a lot. Yeah, And 1181 01:21:57.960 --> 01:22:00.399 I think, yeah, we're saying the same thing there, and I guess 1182 01:22:00.439 --> 01:22:02.439 I just kind of I would wrap up, but just be saying I think 1183 01:22:02.479 --> 01:22:08.359 that's again, it's what is so brilliant about these books, because you and 1184 01:22:08.399 --> 01:22:12.079 I took this one paragraph, like all this stuff we just said that's not 1185 01:22:12.119 --> 01:22:15.199 in the books. And you know, I'm someone who's like, I'm not 1186 01:22:15.800 --> 01:22:18.920 I don't think Pratchett means to be and I'm certainly not saying that the result 1187 01:22:19.000 --> 01:22:24.520 is to be anti academic. Like I think Pratchett isn't trying to say, 1188 01:22:24.560 --> 01:22:27.439 oh, all of economics is stupid because I'm going to make it so simple, 1189 01:22:27.840 --> 01:22:30.800 just like he's not saying all of moral thought isn't stupid because missnew what 1190 01:22:30.880 --> 01:22:34.479 Grandma said. But he's also saying that a lot of that stuff is very 1191 01:22:34.520 --> 01:22:41.680 inaccessible. And it's like you could read dust copy Tall, or you could 1192 01:22:41.720 --> 01:22:45.680 read two paragraphs from Vibes and at least get the basic idea. You know, 1193 01:22:45.760 --> 01:22:48.600 you could read Martin Buber, or you could read this one line from 1194 01:22:49.279 --> 01:22:54.079 Grandma Weathers or whatever and weather wax and and I just love that. I 1195 01:22:54.119 --> 01:22:59.560 love that he's able to take these incredibly complex ideas and make them much smaller 1196 01:22:59.600 --> 01:23:01.960 and make much simpler. Right. And he's using narrative as a hook because 1197 01:23:01.960 --> 01:23:08.159 that's something that like we think in terms of other people, right, that's 1198 01:23:08.159 --> 01:23:10.920 how that's kind of how people operate. And so if you don't have a 1199 01:23:10.960 --> 01:23:14.399 hook or a structure or a way to pass things through, it's really abstract. 1200 01:23:14.960 --> 01:23:18.479 And like there's definitely, like you say, a space for really intellectual 1201 01:23:18.479 --> 01:23:23.079 discussions about things where you are going to sit down and figure out the exact 1202 01:23:23.199 --> 01:23:28.239 like what is the curve where a renter and a and a buyer you know, 1203 01:23:28.319 --> 01:23:30.239 intersect, and what can you do with saving to get there and whatever, 1204 01:23:30.279 --> 01:23:32.560 and like what are the monetary theories that get you there? And you 1205 01:23:32.560 --> 01:23:35.760 can also just say it's kind of unfair and we should try to fix stuff, 1206 01:23:36.640 --> 01:23:40.760 like just here's the vibe, and he's trying to get you. He's 1207 01:23:40.760 --> 01:23:43.600 trying to hook you and get you to the vibe of like being angry that 1208 01:23:43.640 --> 01:23:46.640 it sucks to be poor, right, Yeah, And I think that's the 1209 01:23:46.680 --> 01:23:49.199 real thing, is that he's not trying to tell you how to fix it. 1210 01:23:49.640 --> 01:23:53.920 He's trying to get you angry about how things are. Yes, because 1211 01:23:53.960 --> 01:23:57.039 I think and I think that, and that's in many ways. Oh you 1212 01:23:57.039 --> 01:24:00.439 know, I didn't even thought about this, but here Vines and Carrot are 1213 01:24:00.520 --> 01:24:10.119 the two opposite ends of his spectrum. Because Vimes says, I think you're 1214 01:24:10.119 --> 01:24:13.239 all I see what you're all doing. I think you're all idiots, and 1215 01:24:13.279 --> 01:24:17.560 I think it's all terrible. Carrot says, I'm going to ignore or be 1216 01:24:17.640 --> 01:24:21.000 ignorant of everything you're doing because I think you should just be doing the right 1217 01:24:21.039 --> 01:24:27.000 thing. Yes, but both of them are fundamentally rejecting all the things that 1218 01:24:27.159 --> 01:24:30.760 everybody else just takes for granted. As well, we just go to war 1219 01:24:30.800 --> 01:24:32.520 because that's what we do. Well, we have these systems because that's what 1220 01:24:32.520 --> 01:24:36.159 we do. Both of them are fundamentally saying, I see the status quo 1221 01:24:36.279 --> 01:24:42.560 is wrong, yep. And that's the that's the thing with these books is 1222 01:24:42.600 --> 01:24:46.840 that they they reject the status quo. They want there to be change, 1223 01:24:46.880 --> 01:24:51.239 and they they think that sometimes you've got to get it and shake things up, 1224 01:24:51.279 --> 01:24:55.920 and sometimes you got to you gotta get your hands dirty and fixed stuff. 1225 01:24:56.600 --> 01:25:01.760 And it's they're do they're just it's just good. Yeah, they're just 1226 01:25:01.800 --> 01:25:03.840 good. And they say that you can make a difference. That's the other 1227 01:25:03.840 --> 01:25:06.760 thing that a narrative can can really hook you on, is that a person 1228 01:25:06.800 --> 01:25:11.399 can make a difference. Right. Sometimes stuff is big and complicated and hard. 1229 01:25:11.680 --> 01:25:15.359 The book Night Watch that there's a revolution and one person can't make a 1230 01:25:15.359 --> 01:25:21.439 difference except from one person absolutely can, right, And yeah, that's yeah, 1231 01:25:21.479 --> 01:25:26.239 that's the big theme. It's wonderful. All right. Well, as 1232 01:25:26.239 --> 01:25:29.159 I said, we'll talk more about discworld and kind of give some previews of 1233 01:25:29.159 --> 01:25:32.880 stuff we're going to talk about in the future in the patron section. Please 1234 01:25:32.880 --> 01:25:35.600 do check that out and give some thought to signing up. You also get 1235 01:25:35.640 --> 01:25:39.840 to ad free content and again you're helping support me and help support the strikers, 1236 01:25:40.159 --> 01:25:42.399 although you also would you want to donate directly to the strike funds. 1237 01:25:42.439 --> 01:25:45.000 That's an awesome thing to do as well. But for everybody else who was 1238 01:25:45.079 --> 01:25:47.760 checking out, now, Rob, where can they find more you? So 1239 01:25:48.000 --> 01:25:51.439 I do stuff here, I do stuff with good luck. High five I've 1240 01:25:51.439 --> 01:25:57.920 actually gotten undermasted on recently, which is because I didn't want to be on 1241 01:25:57.920 --> 01:26:00.880 the bird site. So I am at hind dot Social. So if you 1242 01:26:00.880 --> 01:26:06.920 want to sign up on mastadon stuff, I'm at robitt on conduct social and 1243 01:26:08.039 --> 01:26:10.479 so you should be able to find me there. I haven't actually posted anything, 1244 01:26:10.600 --> 01:26:13.399 but I follow a bunch of loading ready run people and stuff. So 1245 01:26:13.880 --> 01:26:17.239 nice. Nice. Yeah, I'm still not quite sure where I should go 1246 01:26:17.279 --> 01:26:20.079 because people who are leaving the Bird app we're going in like four or five 1247 01:26:20.079 --> 01:26:24.560 different directions, and I just I can't bring myself to create five profiles. 1248 01:26:25.000 --> 01:26:28.000 But Masston, I think it's definitely one thing, and I may well head 1249 01:26:28.000 --> 01:26:30.600 over there in a bit. But meanwhile, you can still find me on 1250 01:26:30.640 --> 01:26:32.960 the Bird app, Twitter, you can find me on Instagram and TikTok. 1251 01:26:33.640 --> 01:26:38.199 Just you search for the Ethical Panda or Ethical Panda, but mostly the best 1252 01:26:38.199 --> 01:26:41.079 way to do it is just looking the show notes, or go to our 1253 01:26:41.119 --> 01:26:44.640 website, the Ethical Panda dot com. You'll find this podcast. You find 1254 01:26:44.640 --> 01:26:47.720 my Star Wars podcast. With both of those podcasts. As I said, 1255 01:26:47.760 --> 01:26:50.960 throughout the strike, or until we get different information from the unions, I'm 1256 01:26:51.000 --> 01:26:56.279 not going to be making any media about the from the Struck companies, which 1257 01:26:56.279 --> 01:27:00.880 are the companies that for whom the set that makes the contract with SAG and 1258 01:27:00.359 --> 01:27:03.439 Sagastra, and the writers union, the actually union, the writers union. 1259 01:27:04.119 --> 01:27:06.720 But one thing I'm discovering is I think about it, is there is a 1260 01:27:06.880 --> 01:27:10.880 huge amount of media that's not that. I mean, there's books, and 1261 01:27:10.880 --> 01:27:14.199 there's video games, there's comic books. I'm definitely gonna be talking about all 1262 01:27:14.199 --> 01:27:16.600 of that. I'm gonna make an episode on professional wrestling pretty soon. But 1263 01:27:16.720 --> 01:27:21.199 also there's an awful lot of TV and movies that are made completely outside that 1264 01:27:21.279 --> 01:27:25.319 system. You know, BBC and all this stuff coming out of England, 1265 01:27:25.960 --> 01:27:30.000 Anime, Bollywood and the other Indian subcontinent stuff, lots of stuff from You're 1266 01:27:30.159 --> 01:27:34.159 all over the world. People make movies and TV shows that have nothing to 1267 01:27:34.199 --> 01:27:39.520 do with the SAG system. And let's give some of those some attentions. 1268 01:27:39.560 --> 01:27:43.239 So I'll definitely be looking at some of that. You can sign up for 1269 01:27:43.279 --> 01:27:45.279 both those podcasts, but most importantly, give us feedback. What do you 1270 01:27:45.279 --> 01:27:48.119 love about Discworld? Have you never heard of it now but now you're intrigued. 1271 01:27:48.640 --> 01:27:51.600 Would love to hear your thoughts, either now or maybe you go back 1272 01:27:51.600 --> 01:27:55.560 and read one of these books and then give us feedback, love to hear 1273 01:27:55.600 --> 01:27:58.000 it, love to talk about it. We've got a feedback episode coming up 1274 01:27:58.039 --> 01:28:00.439 soon. That's gonna be in two weeks. And then I'm gonna, because 1275 01:28:00.439 --> 01:28:02.079 I've just gotten it, all of that back up, I'm gonna do a 1276 01:28:02.119 --> 01:28:05.640 feedback episode, and then I'm gonna get back into making sure that at least 1277 01:28:05.640 --> 01:28:09.520 every other episode we do feedback. I know I've been terrible about it. 1278 01:28:09.920 --> 01:28:12.920 I'm gonna make it, make it better. So I'm half myself Rob. 1279 01:28:12.960 --> 01:28:15.439 Thank you all so much for being a great audience. We have spoken