WEBVTT 1 00:00:03.279 --> 00:00:08.160 I'm Casey Tanner and I'm Camille Lewis, and this is safe word. Safe 2 00:00:08.199 --> 00:00:12.400 word is sex therapy unhinged because instead of being a blank slate that's just here 3 00:00:12.439 --> 00:00:15.759 to support you, we're telling you the details on our own sex lives, 4 00:00:15.919 --> 00:00:20.280 relationships, identities, and more. This isn't sex and it's not therapy, 5 00:00:20.399 --> 00:00:23.839 but we are sex therapists and what you hear today may excite you. Each 6 00:00:23.879 --> 00:00:27.640 week we tackle a theme related to sex, relationships, gender, and more. 7 00:00:28.039 --> 00:00:51.759 This week we're diving into the theme attachment styles. Let you know, 8 00:00:52.320 --> 00:01:11.000 save Oklahoma outro knock it. Okay, Welcome to episode twenty four. I 9 00:01:11.040 --> 00:01:15.560 forgot how much I missed the sound of your voice When it comes through a 10 00:01:15.599 --> 00:01:19.799 loud microphone. It's sting to my soul. You would be alone in that. 11 00:01:19.239 --> 00:01:25.079 I don't miss the sound of my voice. So this is our bonus 12 00:01:25.159 --> 00:01:29.400 episode because we've missed you all. A bonus episode because we miss you. 13 00:01:29.439 --> 00:01:34.640 But we're also tired, So for now, just this one and then dot 14 00:01:34.680 --> 00:01:38.640 dot dot Yeah. Amen? Amen? Oh what have you been up to? 15 00:01:38.879 --> 00:01:44.319 Casey? What? What wellity? I'm in? Like what I'm calling 16 00:01:44.400 --> 00:01:49.519 like Schrodinger's cat for author right now, which is the space between my book 17 00:01:49.560 --> 00:01:53.120 is written and it hasn't yet come out, and by the time this episode 18 00:01:53.120 --> 00:01:57.159 comes out, it will be out in the world. Right now, I 19 00:01:57.200 --> 00:02:00.040 get to sort of exist in this place of having written it, but it's 20 00:02:00.120 --> 00:02:05.079 neither been successful or unsuccessful yet, which is like my ideal place to be. 21 00:02:06.439 --> 00:02:09.240 So I planned to spend the next couple of weeks practicing, letting go 22 00:02:09.319 --> 00:02:14.759 of outcome, just being proud that I wrote a book because honestly, top 23 00:02:14.800 --> 00:02:19.840 five hardest things I've ever done. And you witnessed a lot of the highs 24 00:02:19.879 --> 00:02:23.599 and lows of I mean, I feel like there were so many highs because 25 00:02:23.800 --> 00:02:29.439 the end result is so beautiful. I can't wait for everybody to be able 26 00:02:29.479 --> 00:02:32.759 to share in it with you and me and us and us. Yeah, 27 00:02:32.800 --> 00:02:38.840 what about you? What's new? I'm like, not a whole lot is 28 00:02:38.879 --> 00:02:42.120 new. But when I saw that this was episode twenty four, it reminded 29 00:02:42.159 --> 00:02:45.199 me of the twenty four year old that I hooked up with a few weeks 30 00:02:45.240 --> 00:02:49.360 ago, and so then I was like, and when I was doing that, 31 00:02:49.439 --> 00:02:51.439 I was like, this would be so good for safe work. So 32 00:02:52.319 --> 00:02:59.479 yeah, my raunchy era. Ooh, the twenty four year old that's over. 33 00:02:59.520 --> 00:03:04.159 Now. What is I mean not that we can generalize for all twenty 34 00:03:04.199 --> 00:03:07.479 four year olds, but what was it like to have such a big age 35 00:03:07.520 --> 00:03:09.400 gap in that direction, because I feel like you've had an age gap in 36 00:03:09.439 --> 00:03:16.520 the other direction. Definitely, Yes, hmmm. I think like the use 37 00:03:16.759 --> 00:03:22.560 of like social media was coming up when we were doing whatever we were doing 38 00:03:22.639 --> 00:03:27.439 in a very strange way. I think that is like he was over analyzing 39 00:03:28.280 --> 00:03:30.759 a lot of things and a lot of things that he thought that I wanted, 40 00:03:31.199 --> 00:03:34.680 and I was just like, I literally never said that I wanted any 41 00:03:34.719 --> 00:03:38.240 of this. I'm just having fun. So is this the kind of thing 42 00:03:38.280 --> 00:03:43.319 where like they monitor social media and they're like, well, you let you 43 00:03:43.400 --> 00:03:46.919 viewed this story, but you didn't view this story and you liked this post 44 00:03:46.039 --> 00:03:50.639 from yeah, three weeks ago, which means and it felt very strange, 45 00:03:50.639 --> 00:03:53.439 And I was just like, I don't really, I don't know what you're 46 00:03:53.439 --> 00:03:57.120 talking about. It like, I do not communicate my desires in that way. 47 00:03:57.479 --> 00:04:00.400 No, No, not at all. I literally we'll just tell you 48 00:04:00.479 --> 00:04:05.680 about them. And somehow they still were like assuming that I wanted more from 49 00:04:06.000 --> 00:04:11.680 the relationship than I did, which I think is like having that expression in 50 00:04:11.719 --> 00:04:14.280 this way, and I was like, I'm not tripping. Please, You're 51 00:04:14.280 --> 00:04:17.279 like, I am not trying to marry a twenty four years No, no, 52 00:04:17.279 --> 00:04:26.920 No, that's really it amazing. So we're talking about attachment today. 53 00:04:27.879 --> 00:04:30.600 Do I know your attachment style? You've had to told me at some point. 54 00:04:30.800 --> 00:04:35.079 I feel like maybe you could guess, Okay, I mean scorpio, 55 00:04:39.680 --> 00:04:45.680 so just intense, yeah, no, and intense and attachment style are Yeah, 56 00:04:45.720 --> 00:04:48.279 I think it is, it can be. I would guess that you 57 00:04:48.519 --> 00:04:53.879 are Gosh. I see you as anxious sometimes and I see you as if 58 00:04:53.879 --> 00:04:56.920 we did in other times. Are you just are you disorganized? Gali? 59 00:04:58.560 --> 00:05:03.480 I feel like that in certain spaces, I show up in certain ways, 60 00:05:03.639 --> 00:05:11.920 like I think that I think probably I lean more anxious relationally, but I 61 00:05:11.959 --> 00:05:15.759 think I can quickly go into avoidant or once I hit a certain place, 62 00:05:15.800 --> 00:05:20.959 it's just like I just can cut off real quick. So but I feel 63 00:05:20.959 --> 00:05:28.680 like you've definitely seen me in bundo spaces totally. And I am a true 64 00:05:28.680 --> 00:05:32.959 believer that even if you have quote unquote secure attachment style which never seen it, 65 00:05:32.959 --> 00:05:36.800 don't believe it exists, but okay, don't know her, Yeah, 66 00:05:38.399 --> 00:05:42.959 you still have avoidant and anxious parts of yourself that are going to show up 67 00:05:42.959 --> 00:05:45.839 in different contexts. So that makes sense to me. But do you have 68 00:05:45.879 --> 00:05:47.920 one where where like when people ask you the question, you typically say one 69 00:05:48.000 --> 00:05:53.160 or the other. I think probably anxious. Yeah, yeah, I lean 70 00:05:53.199 --> 00:05:56.759 anxious as well. And I feel like when I get avoidant, it's just 71 00:05:56.759 --> 00:06:00.240 because I'm really anxious. It's like my anxiety has spilled over the top and 72 00:06:00.279 --> 00:06:03.519 it became avoidance. Yeah. I feel like I resonate with that when I'm 73 00:06:03.560 --> 00:06:06.160 just like, I can't, I can't be this exius anymore. Just like 74 00:06:06.199 --> 00:06:12.160 got a power down? Yeah, yes, shut down, she DoD. 75 00:06:12.160 --> 00:06:15.160 We do a little bit of a like a brief one of one on attachment 76 00:06:15.199 --> 00:06:18.040 for listeners who may not be as familiar. That sounds great, Okay, 77 00:06:18.120 --> 00:06:21.160 all right, I'm gonna give it a go. All right, so way 78 00:06:21.160 --> 00:06:24.680 to go. Whack at it? Sorry, we'll take a whack up. 79 00:06:24.839 --> 00:06:29.000 Can you do the accent? Well, she's American when she says that, 80 00:06:29.399 --> 00:06:35.720 Oh oh, they both say it. Whack at it, uh, listeners. 81 00:06:35.759 --> 00:06:39.680 Camille and I had like a little weekend slumber party a couple of months 82 00:06:39.720 --> 00:06:44.720 ago, and Camille so sweetly brought me the shirts that they wear well they 83 00:06:44.800 --> 00:06:47.439 Why am I talking about them? Lindsay Lohand as two people wears in the 84 00:06:47.519 --> 00:06:51.240 parent trap with the it's from the vineyard and the parent trap. I still 85 00:06:51.279 --> 00:06:55.639 wear that to that most nights of the week. It's so comfortable. The 86 00:06:55.759 --> 00:07:00.199 Parker Noll Vineyard pee before I give the one one? What kind of attachment 87 00:07:00.240 --> 00:07:10.199 do you think we have to each other? I think I think that you 88 00:07:11.240 --> 00:07:17.680 feel anxiously attached to me, and I feel securely attached to you. I'm 89 00:07:17.680 --> 00:07:20.240 going to need you to get I'm gonna need you to explain. I don't 90 00:07:20.279 --> 00:07:28.319 disagree. I honestly, I don't disagree. I think that I think I 91 00:07:28.360 --> 00:07:32.000 don't know. I know I didn't get on the spot. No. I 92 00:07:32.040 --> 00:07:39.439 think that genuinely, when you bring, when you present with your like anxious 93 00:07:39.800 --> 00:07:45.720 kind of instinct, I feel maybe calm, more calm, like I feel 94 00:07:45.720 --> 00:07:50.319 like usually I am very dramatic about most things. But I think that somehow 95 00:07:50.360 --> 00:07:53.959 your anxiety makes me feel like I'm like, I just don't think this is 96 00:07:53.959 --> 00:07:58.959 that deep? Yeah, and are secure based for me? Yeah? And 97 00:07:59.000 --> 00:08:01.759 I think you're like, what you mean, it's not that deep? It 98 00:08:01.800 --> 00:08:05.360 is and I'm just like it's it's deep to me, and I was like, 99 00:08:05.399 --> 00:08:07.720 I think it's fine. I think you're great. I think we're great. 100 00:08:09.040 --> 00:08:11.920 Yeah, maybe, but I will. I think one thing that we 101 00:08:13.000 --> 00:08:16.720 both do is if we're feeling like our relationships like a little off, or 102 00:08:16.720 --> 00:08:20.439 we're like feeling far away, then we like we we will like share TikTok, 103 00:08:20.639 --> 00:08:24.600 or we'll get on text and we'll get off chat. We'll get on 104 00:08:24.680 --> 00:08:26.240 text and we'll be like I still love you, you still love me? 105 00:08:26.759 --> 00:08:30.399 Yeah, you know. We we're also really anxious is when one of us 106 00:08:30.439 --> 00:08:33.960 is on vacation. Yeah, because it's not a person who's not on vacation 107 00:08:35.039 --> 00:08:37.360 that's anxious. It's the person who's on vacation because they like, we will 108 00:08:37.360 --> 00:08:41.559 text each other being like am I okay? Are we okay? Yeah? 109 00:08:41.960 --> 00:08:48.919 Literally, yeah that's so true everything okay, yeah see you. But I 110 00:08:48.960 --> 00:08:52.919 do think that, like we don't just have attachment to romantic partners to sexual 111 00:08:52.960 --> 00:08:56.399 partners. We have attachment with our colleagues and with our bosses, with their 112 00:08:56.440 --> 00:09:01.879 co workers. And it's different across the spectrum. So anyway we can get 113 00:09:01.919 --> 00:09:05.519 into that in a second totally. I was also thinking about friends, like, 114 00:09:05.559 --> 00:09:09.279 so yes, I'm like when I think about most relationships, I'm like, 115 00:09:09.360 --> 00:09:15.360 ah, yeah, yeah, be obsessed with me. Luckily most people 116 00:09:15.399 --> 00:09:24.600 are from okay attachment one oh one. Our ADHD is poppin' attachment. So 117 00:09:24.600 --> 00:09:28.519 the way that I love to talk about attachment is less in terms of style 118 00:09:28.679 --> 00:09:33.039 and more in terms of strategy. I'll explain. When we come into this 119 00:09:33.080 --> 00:09:37.080 world, we have a nervous system, we have a cardiovascular system. We 120 00:09:37.200 --> 00:09:43.799 also have an attachment system, and it's actually this very advanced form of regulating 121 00:09:43.840 --> 00:09:48.399 whether or not we're safe. And it's really important, especially when we're young, 122 00:09:48.519 --> 00:09:52.559 because if we're not in close proximity to a caregiver, we actually cannot 123 00:09:52.559 --> 00:09:56.679 survive for that long. And so this attachment system tracks when we might be 124 00:09:56.720 --> 00:10:01.799 in danger of being separated from that caregiving and then it sets the alarm off. 125 00:10:01.840 --> 00:10:03.600 And when the alarm goes off, we have different strategies for pulling that 126 00:10:03.720 --> 00:10:09.480 caregiving back in, whether that's crying, cooing, trying to make eye contact, 127 00:10:09.600 --> 00:10:13.799 reaching right, if that, If those strategies work, if you reach 128 00:10:13.840 --> 00:10:18.879 and someone comes, if you cry and someone soothes you, you move closer 129 00:10:18.919 --> 00:10:24.159 and closer to secure strategies of maintaining attachment. But for many of us that 130 00:10:24.240 --> 00:10:26.919 didn't happen, and I'm not somebody that is like it's all the parents fault. 131 00:10:26.919 --> 00:10:31.080 I think caregivers have their own contexts, they have their own histories. 132 00:10:31.080 --> 00:10:35.240 There's a lot of reasons why sometimes caregivers can't be attuned in that way. 133 00:10:35.600 --> 00:10:39.159 But when that happens repeatedly over time, what we learn is that, oh, 134 00:10:39.240 --> 00:10:43.240 I'm not actually very efficient in getting my needs met. I better change 135 00:10:43.320 --> 00:10:46.320 my strategies. The way that I'm reaching for them isn't enough, and so 136 00:10:46.399 --> 00:10:52.279 we might reach harder, cry louder, find these other ways of essentially exaggerating 137 00:10:52.279 --> 00:10:58.799 our alarm system because the standard wasn't working. That is what I call anxious 138 00:10:58.799 --> 00:11:05.080 attachment. Now, in situations where even that exaggeration isn't working, people still 139 00:11:05.120 --> 00:11:09.159 aren't coming. That can be when I think folks veer into avoidant attachment, 140 00:11:09.200 --> 00:11:13.320 because what they learn is I am expending so much energy setting off these alarm 141 00:11:13.320 --> 00:11:16.919 bells and it is not working and no one is coming, and why would 142 00:11:16.000 --> 00:11:20.200 we continue to exert that much energy? So it shifts into more of a 143 00:11:20.240 --> 00:11:24.440 shutdown space where it's like I'm not even going to bother because it is too 144 00:11:24.480 --> 00:11:28.919 painful to even take the risk, so that is more of an avoidant attachment 145 00:11:28.960 --> 00:11:33.840 style, and then disorganized is a combination of both and often comes from a 146 00:11:33.960 --> 00:11:37.679 childhood or a series of circumstances in life where there's just a ton of chaos 147 00:11:37.759 --> 00:11:43.200 or unpredictability. Maybe we're putting a caregiving role really early in life. Maybe 148 00:11:43.200 --> 00:11:48.039 there were experiences of abuse, neglect, oppression, lack of resources. So 149 00:11:48.799 --> 00:11:54.559 that's sort of the one on one on infancy. But inevitably those strategies make 150 00:11:54.600 --> 00:11:58.759 their way into our adult relationships, as we're talking about, and so even 151 00:11:58.840 --> 00:12:01.320 when we have somebody that is safe, that is willing, that is a 152 00:12:01.360 --> 00:12:05.960 tune sitting in front of us, we are still going to employ those strategies 153 00:12:07.240 --> 00:12:11.399 when we were younger. And to make it more complicated, you know, 154 00:12:11.759 --> 00:12:15.039 most of the time people who are anxious and avoidant also partner with folks who 155 00:12:15.080 --> 00:12:18.559 are either avoidant or anxious, which means that we've got so predictable exactly, 156 00:12:18.919 --> 00:12:26.399 we've got two or more disregulated alarm systems interacting with one another. Right, 157 00:12:26.440 --> 00:12:30.559 and then that those are the folks that often find their way into our therapy 158 00:12:30.600 --> 00:12:33.039 offices. And certainly some of the reasons I have found my way into a 159 00:12:33.080 --> 00:12:39.000 therapy office in the past. I love how you didn't even talk about secure 160 00:12:39.039 --> 00:12:43.799 attachment. I well, actually in my book, I'm like, dear reader, 161 00:12:45.039 --> 00:12:48.440 if you have secure attachment, good for you. I didn't write this 162 00:12:48.519 --> 00:12:52.000 for you up, hope you still like it, because you know, my 163 00:12:52.080 --> 00:12:54.879 people are the insecure people. That's who we work with. That's the people 164 00:12:54.879 --> 00:12:58.679 in my life, that's me. Mm hmmmm hmm. Yeah. I feel 165 00:12:58.679 --> 00:13:05.799 like it's so interesting to notice the places where anxious and avoidant come into relationship 166 00:13:05.840 --> 00:13:11.840 with one another. And I wonder why that happens so frequently. It's like 167 00:13:11.240 --> 00:13:15.799 all the time, like with the relational work that I do as a therapist, 168 00:13:15.879 --> 00:13:18.480 but then in my own personal relationships, I'm like, you know, 169 00:13:18.879 --> 00:13:22.639 even with like my best friend, I'm like very physically affectionate, and she 170 00:13:24.000 --> 00:13:28.000 could not hate that more. And I'm like, why don't you like this? 171 00:13:28.200 --> 00:13:33.320 It's just like those opposites. It's so interesting. Well, I read 172 00:13:35.000 --> 00:13:39.120 in a couple of different places. Some ideas about that are that we are, 173 00:13:39.360 --> 00:13:41.960 you know, we are recreating what we know, rereach for familiarity. 174 00:13:43.679 --> 00:13:46.919 Oftentimes, folks who develop in anxious attachment and childhood had avoidant caregivers and so 175 00:13:48.679 --> 00:13:50.519 when we go to seek partnership in adulthood, we look for what we know, 176 00:13:50.559 --> 00:13:54.960 and what we know is avoidance. That could be one reason. The 177 00:13:54.039 --> 00:13:58.639 other thing that I've heard is that early on in that like new relationship energy 178 00:13:58.679 --> 00:14:05.559 state, that anxious partners are really attracted to what appears to be an avoidant 179 00:14:05.559 --> 00:14:11.000 partner's sense of security, independence, confidence. That's the side of an avoidant 180 00:14:11.039 --> 00:14:15.240 partner that you tend to see during ENRI. And on the flip side, 181 00:14:15.240 --> 00:14:18.399 the side of the anxious partner that you tend to see during ENRI is often 182 00:14:18.720 --> 00:14:22.080 very vulnerable, very communicative, which for somebody with avoidant attachment can be very 183 00:14:22.120 --> 00:14:26.080 attractive early on because you're like, that's something I don't have, right, 184 00:14:26.840 --> 00:14:31.240 But as that plays out as NRI fades, that can become a dynamic that 185 00:14:31.919 --> 00:14:35.639 is that is mutually triggering, but also a dynamic where it makes the way 186 00:14:35.720 --> 00:14:41.360 for really immense healing if you have the resources and support to do that. 187 00:14:43.320 --> 00:14:48.679 Wow, you're so smart. Oh thanks, you can't wait to reread your 188 00:14:48.720 --> 00:14:54.519 book. Thanks for me. Okay, listener questions, Yeah, let's get 189 00:14:54.559 --> 00:15:00.480 it all right. We have our first question. Does it really come down 190 00:15:00.559 --> 00:15:07.320 to attachment or is it an over simplification. I think both kind because as 191 00:15:07.360 --> 00:15:11.960 you were describing attachment, I was also thinking about, just like you know, 192 00:15:11.279 --> 00:15:15.200 the things that we think of when we think of fight and flight and 193 00:15:15.240 --> 00:15:20.240 freeze and fond of just how to determine safety and how to react when we 194 00:15:20.279 --> 00:15:24.399 feel unsafe. That is kind of like the baseline for how we navigate the 195 00:15:24.399 --> 00:15:26.799 world in so many different spaces. You know, when we think about people 196 00:15:26.919 --> 00:15:33.480 whose identities have been oppressed by society, you largely will feel unsafe. And 197 00:15:33.559 --> 00:15:39.840 so I think how that manifests is different for different people, but ultimately, 198 00:15:39.960 --> 00:15:46.600 like the quest or desire for safety, for community, for solidarity is an 199 00:15:46.679 --> 00:15:54.120 underlying human impulse, and trying to find relational connection is an underlying human impulse. 200 00:15:54.279 --> 00:15:58.639 Our attachment styles are so varied in different spaces and places throughout our lives, 201 00:15:58.639 --> 00:16:04.679 and that changes and evolves as we evolve and find our community and find 202 00:16:04.720 --> 00:16:12.360 relationships that feel safe and heal old trauma wounds or disconnect from problematic family members. 203 00:16:12.399 --> 00:16:18.120 Like all of these things I think are all tied into each other. 204 00:16:18.320 --> 00:16:22.480 But I think I just deeply believe that being relational is what makes us human, 205 00:16:22.519 --> 00:16:26.480 and it is like the most important human imperative. And if that is 206 00:16:26.519 --> 00:16:33.559 the case, then I think it feels very important to consider what attachment looks 207 00:16:33.600 --> 00:16:37.200 like. But I think it also is important to consider how that comes to 208 00:16:37.240 --> 00:16:41.200 be totally. Yeah. I mean, I think whenever we try to zero 209 00:16:41.279 --> 00:16:45.320 in on a concept that is about the individual or even just the family of 210 00:16:45.360 --> 00:16:48.960 origin, like attachment, and we're not looking at those systemic factors, that 211 00:16:49.000 --> 00:16:53.000 we're missing a huge piece of it. Yeah, because so much of the 212 00:16:53.000 --> 00:16:59.240 way that anxious or avoidant attachment gets passed down through generations is through generational trauma, 213 00:16:59.320 --> 00:17:03.799 right, and generation oppression, and especially if we grow up in communities 214 00:17:03.839 --> 00:17:08.680 that share a particular kind of oppression and we're co regulating with folks within that 215 00:17:08.720 --> 00:17:12.720 community, like that could be another way that attachment shifts is passed down along 216 00:17:12.759 --> 00:17:18.039 with resiliencies, right, Yeah. I mean the other thing it makes me 217 00:17:18.079 --> 00:17:22.359 think about is how there's nothing adaptive about feeling safe when you're not safe, 218 00:17:22.400 --> 00:17:26.160 Like, are we actually trying to work towards helping people feel safe in situations 219 00:17:26.240 --> 00:17:30.799 where they aren't safe? No, And there are many situations that don't call 220 00:17:30.880 --> 00:17:34.279 for a sense of security because there isn't a sense of security And naming that 221 00:17:34.400 --> 00:17:41.480 is actually what health looks like. And so yeah, I think it's also 222 00:17:41.480 --> 00:17:45.559 important to say, like, yes, there's insecure insecure attachment style, but 223 00:17:45.640 --> 00:17:52.599 it's also very possible to be a person that is like within your values and 224 00:17:52.640 --> 00:17:56.279 growing and still feeling insecure because your environment is insecure. In those cases, 225 00:17:56.400 --> 00:18:00.440 we have to build those secure structures first, right. I feel like that's 226 00:18:00.480 --> 00:18:04.759 like the biggest part of when you're a therapist and you have like therapists of 227 00:18:04.920 --> 00:18:10.200 imposter syndrome, and it's like validating is enough. It's like, but validating 228 00:18:10.319 --> 00:18:12.200 is so important. You know. I work with a lot of black clients 229 00:18:12.200 --> 00:18:15.000 and a lot of black queer clients, and a lot of it is like 230 00:18:15.160 --> 00:18:18.640 being like, well, yeah, of course you feel fucked up about these 231 00:18:18.680 --> 00:18:22.559 things because these things are fucked up. You aren't meant to feel good there, 232 00:18:22.559 --> 00:18:26.599 You're not meant to thrive there. So I think part of that is 233 00:18:26.640 --> 00:18:30.839 like, oh, okay, Like I'm not tripping for not excelling and feeling 234 00:18:30.880 --> 00:18:36.240 good and being able to do the millions of things a day because I'm operating 235 00:18:36.240 --> 00:18:40.359 in a system that is inherently unsafe and not meant for me to be okay 236 00:18:41.000 --> 00:18:44.880 totally. And I think that in some ways gets at one of the biggest 237 00:18:44.960 --> 00:18:48.160 questions that I get about attachment, which is for folks who are in an 238 00:18:48.240 --> 00:18:52.839 unsafe situation, or they may be in a relationship and they know themselves to 239 00:18:52.920 --> 00:18:56.920 be an anxiously attached person or avoidantly attached person, having a really hard time 240 00:18:56.960 --> 00:19:00.359 deciphering between like is my gut feeling that I should leave right or is this 241 00:19:00.440 --> 00:19:04.759 my anxious attachment style telling me to leave, and like panic at not knowing 242 00:19:04.839 --> 00:19:08.000 the difference, because it feels like there's a lot of weight on a decision 243 00:19:08.079 --> 00:19:12.480 like that, and it is really hard to know the difference. How do 244 00:19:12.519 --> 00:19:18.640 you move past triggering each other's attachment wounds and start building security. I think 245 00:19:18.640 --> 00:19:22.519 that we spin our wheels when we try to tell ourselves, like be less 246 00:19:22.519 --> 00:19:25.559 triggered, be less triggering, right, It's like, actually impossible to just 247 00:19:25.599 --> 00:19:29.920 make that decision. The attachment reactions we have, as you named, fight, 248 00:19:30.079 --> 00:19:32.680 flight, freeze, fond. We don't get to make choices about that 249 00:19:32.680 --> 00:19:36.519 that just happens in our bodies. So what I say to folks is instead 250 00:19:36.519 --> 00:19:41.480 of instead of even thinking about the actions and the behaviors, building a more 251 00:19:41.519 --> 00:19:45.119 secure relationship with yourself and with other people. It starts with expanding your nervous 252 00:19:45.119 --> 00:19:52.759 system resources, and like starts in the body. If you basically insecure attachment 253 00:19:52.799 --> 00:19:56.599 style is I'll use some jargon and then I'll try to explain it and secure 254 00:19:56.599 --> 00:20:00.079 attachment style. Folks with insecure attachment tend to have a more narrow window of 255 00:20:00.079 --> 00:20:06.440 tolerance, meaning that they are more easily dysregulated. So the way that we 256 00:20:06.559 --> 00:20:10.640 can develop more secure attachment is by expanding that window of tolerance, which means 257 00:20:11.359 --> 00:20:15.119 learning techniques to regulate our nervous system when we notice that it's disregulated or it's 258 00:20:15.119 --> 00:20:19.000 not even about getting regulated, it's about actually having an outlet for that dysregulation. 259 00:20:19.119 --> 00:20:23.559 Right if we want to if we feel angry, I think often from 260 00:20:23.559 --> 00:20:26.720 an avoidant place, we might try to shut that down and say, don't 261 00:20:26.720 --> 00:20:29.839 be angry, don't be triggering, But actually that anger needs to go somewhere, 262 00:20:29.880 --> 00:20:32.759 it needs to be released. I talk to folks about like getting into 263 00:20:32.799 --> 00:20:37.240 a boxing class. I really believe that the shift starts in the body and 264 00:20:37.319 --> 00:20:38.880 being attuned to where you're at in the body. Are you in fight, 265 00:20:40.200 --> 00:20:42.440 are you in flight? Are you in font? Because if you can start 266 00:20:42.440 --> 00:20:45.920 to attune to those states. Those states can give you information about what needs 267 00:20:45.960 --> 00:20:49.319 to happen next. If I'm in a fight place, that means that I 268 00:20:49.319 --> 00:20:52.680 have some angri or upset energy that needs to go somewhere. I have a 269 00:20:52.759 --> 00:20:56.319 choice whether that comes out in this conversation with my partner or I use other 270 00:20:56.359 --> 00:21:00.880 techniques to get that out. If I'm in a fawning place, I have 271 00:21:00.960 --> 00:21:04.039 a choice. Do I fond in the conversation I'm having with my partner, 272 00:21:04.640 --> 00:21:08.720 or do I go and do some breath work and see if I can move 273 00:21:08.839 --> 00:21:11.680 my body out of that place and into a more engaged place. So, 274 00:21:14.400 --> 00:21:18.400 anyway, all that to say, I think it's way less about say this 275 00:21:18.440 --> 00:21:23.359 differently or behave differently, and much more about getting to know how it feels 276 00:21:23.359 --> 00:21:26.920 in your body when you are starting to move into an insecure attachment response, 277 00:21:27.599 --> 00:21:33.640 slowing down and giving yourself a few minutes app so that different choices open up 278 00:21:33.640 --> 00:21:37.480 for you than the one that you would impulsively make from a place of just 279 00:21:37.559 --> 00:21:45.599 regulation. Yeah. I also think that building that resource in relationships lets our 280 00:21:45.640 --> 00:21:51.039 partners know how to notice those things about us. I often ask couples that 281 00:21:51.079 --> 00:21:52.920 I work with, how do you know when so and so is feeling this. 282 00:21:53.000 --> 00:21:56.279 How do you know and so and so is feeling this. We're able 283 00:21:56.319 --> 00:21:59.599 to be like, oh my gosh, when I like start pacing, or 284 00:21:59.799 --> 00:22:03.839 like when my eye starts twitching, or I would like start to rub my 285 00:22:03.880 --> 00:22:07.200 shoulder, then I know that I'm getting a bit disregulated. But if your 286 00:22:07.240 --> 00:22:11.880 partner partners can also point to those things and be like and name it out 287 00:22:11.880 --> 00:22:15.759 loud, literally, be like, hey, I notice that you're you know, 288 00:22:15.960 --> 00:22:18.960 you're getting shifty in your seat. We need to take a second. 289 00:22:19.319 --> 00:22:22.200 And then you start to have this language, just like I think, a 290 00:22:22.519 --> 00:22:30.240 somatic language between the group of you that also feel safe, because I think 291 00:22:30.279 --> 00:22:33.680 all of it is also feeling seen. If somebody's able to say, hey, 292 00:22:33.720 --> 00:22:37.160 it looks like or might you need this? Or would it feel good? 293 00:22:37.200 --> 00:22:41.000 If that's also I think a really safe place to start operating from is 294 00:22:41.039 --> 00:22:47.440 if you can kind of do that coregulation once you've I mean or in tandem 295 00:22:47.480 --> 00:22:52.440 with identifying those sensations in yourself. Yeah, what a gift that is to 296 00:22:52.559 --> 00:22:56.799 partners when we can do that, Because I think, at least for I'll 297 00:22:56.799 --> 00:23:00.799 speak for myself, if someone came to me and was like, I don't 298 00:23:00.839 --> 00:23:03.200 like how you're talking to me, you're being defensive. You know, I 299 00:23:03.200 --> 00:23:06.680 could probably hear that, but that would take a lot of energy for me 300 00:23:06.720 --> 00:23:10.119 to hear that and shift. But if somebody just observed me and said, 301 00:23:10.920 --> 00:23:14.200 I feel you shutting down, or I see that you're you know, I 302 00:23:14.200 --> 00:23:17.759 see that you're pacing, that's not something I can I can really even argue 303 00:23:17.799 --> 00:23:21.079 with. In the moment, it's like, okay, yeah, it sort 304 00:23:21.079 --> 00:23:23.160 of cuts to the heart of it, the way that opens a door. 305 00:23:23.559 --> 00:23:30.240 I really love that. How does attachment style show up during sex? The 306 00:23:30.279 --> 00:23:40.200 way that anxious attachment shows up for me is a wanting affirmation and attention in 307 00:23:40.240 --> 00:23:45.559 a specific way, and I lean to more of a submissive sexually. And 308 00:23:45.599 --> 00:23:52.359 I think that it feels safe to have somebody making decisions or taking a bit 309 00:23:52.400 --> 00:23:57.000 more control, or being more interactive or having, yeah, having some attention 310 00:23:57.079 --> 00:24:03.519 towards me, or also trying to suggest or offer sex when I'm feeling anxious 311 00:24:03.039 --> 00:24:07.880 as a way to connect. Yeah, totally. I think it's so insightful 312 00:24:07.960 --> 00:24:11.079 that if you're somebody that's drawn towards power dynamics, there's very likely and it's 313 00:24:11.079 --> 00:24:15.440 something attachment related at play, right, Because what is the original power dynamic 314 00:24:15.519 --> 00:24:18.880 of our lives, usually with our caregivers, right, so it makes all 315 00:24:18.880 --> 00:24:22.240 the sense in the world. This is a lot of what my book is 316 00:24:22.279 --> 00:24:26.000 about is the intersection of attachment and sex, And what I was finding in 317 00:24:26.039 --> 00:24:30.119 the research is that kind of unsurprisingly, the more weight a relationship has in 318 00:24:30.160 --> 00:24:36.000 your life, the more triggering it is likely to be. And because our 319 00:24:36.039 --> 00:24:41.559 culture, because most cultures put so much emphasis on sexual partnership and romantic partnership, 320 00:24:41.599 --> 00:24:45.920 it is typically in our sexual relationships that we get the most triggered because 321 00:24:45.920 --> 00:24:48.839 those are the ones that hold the most societal weight. Now, if you 322 00:24:48.880 --> 00:24:52.839 know, as we shift gears and are in this revolution where we're starting to 323 00:24:52.960 --> 00:24:56.720 uplift our platonic relationships as just as if not more important than those relationships, 324 00:24:56.759 --> 00:25:00.160 I think that will shift for people. But you know, more often than 325 00:25:00.160 --> 00:25:06.039 not this is the case. And exactly like you said, the way that 326 00:25:06.079 --> 00:25:10.839 you either reach for sex, say yes to sex, say no to sex. 327 00:25:11.079 --> 00:25:15.519 Those are all attachment strategies and we don't have to pathologize them. I 328 00:25:15.599 --> 00:25:18.279 mean we can because sex happens in the body. Sex can actually be a 329 00:25:18.279 --> 00:25:22.519 way to move through an anxious attachment reaction. It can. Just like when 330 00:25:22.559 --> 00:25:26.400 we were little, we reached for closeness, and when we got that closeness 331 00:25:26.400 --> 00:25:30.279 we were soothed. As adults, we might reach for sex and when we 332 00:25:30.319 --> 00:25:33.440 get that closeness feel soothed. But of course, like with anything else, 333 00:25:33.480 --> 00:25:37.839 when you take that to certain extremes, it can become a barrier to intimacy. 334 00:25:38.000 --> 00:25:42.039 So a really easy narrative to glob onto because of all of our sex 335 00:25:42.079 --> 00:25:45.839 miseducation is that sex equals love and sex equals care. Yes, so if 336 00:25:45.839 --> 00:25:49.960 that is our conceptualization, then every time we want sex, if every time 337 00:25:49.960 --> 00:25:53.359 we want care or connection, the thing we go to as sex, and 338 00:25:53.400 --> 00:25:56.880 if we are in a relationship where our sex life waxes and wains, or 339 00:25:56.880 --> 00:26:00.920 our partners on the A spectrum or whatever, we might feel totally unloved and 340 00:26:02.000 --> 00:26:06.720 uncared for because we've equated sex with love and care, so we have to 341 00:26:07.200 --> 00:26:10.359 I think there are a lot of ways we're reaching for sex as a form 342 00:26:10.400 --> 00:26:15.200 of care is really conducive to connection. But if you get siloed into thinking 343 00:26:15.200 --> 00:26:18.920 that that's the only route forwards connection, then your sex life will collapse under 344 00:26:18.960 --> 00:26:26.039 the pressure. It's just too much for any sex life to hold. My 345 00:26:26.160 --> 00:26:30.559 girlfriend says she thinks I'm anxious because I don't remember details from our fights. 346 00:26:30.039 --> 00:26:34.079 But it's not like I'm consciously trying to be avoidant. I genuinely just don't 347 00:26:34.079 --> 00:26:40.640 remember. Is this anxious avoidance? What do you think case? I think 348 00:26:40.799 --> 00:26:45.119 it could be. I mean, there is research that suggests that folks with 349 00:26:45.200 --> 00:26:52.480 insecure attachment styles anxious or avoidant, have more challenges with remembering high intensity conversations 350 00:26:52.640 --> 00:26:56.039 than folks with secure attachment, which makes perfect sense. When our nervous systems 351 00:26:56.079 --> 00:26:59.519 are just regulated, when we're in fight flight free spawn, our bodies aren't 352 00:26:59.519 --> 00:27:03.039 focused on memory. They're focused on surviving, right, So of course, 353 00:27:03.079 --> 00:27:04.880 if you're just regulated in these conversations, your memory is going to shift. 354 00:27:06.039 --> 00:27:08.640 And in no way would somebody ever do that on purpose. That's actually not 355 00:27:08.680 --> 00:27:12.039 a choice that we can make. The only thing I would say here is 356 00:27:12.759 --> 00:27:18.960 I would never look at one sign of an attachment style and then say that 357 00:27:18.000 --> 00:27:21.200 means you're anxious, or that means you're blianing. There could be so many 358 00:27:21.240 --> 00:27:23.240 other reasons this is happening. I have ADHD, and I know that that 359 00:27:23.519 --> 00:27:30.640 absolutely impacts my memory for these kinds of conversations, and there could just literally 360 00:27:30.680 --> 00:27:36.640 be differences in cognition and memory that have nothing to do with attachment or are 361 00:27:36.880 --> 00:27:42.519 related to attachment. So I wouldn't be so quick to be diagnostic about it, 362 00:27:42.599 --> 00:27:47.599 but you know, it's worth being curious. And if the if this 363 00:27:47.680 --> 00:27:49.759 is the complaint or the request that a partner is making that they want they 364 00:27:49.799 --> 00:27:53.079 wish for you to remember things more, then it might be going back to 365 00:27:53.119 --> 00:27:56.480 what we just said in And I think one of the recent questions which is 366 00:27:56.880 --> 00:28:00.119 slowing down some of these conversations a little bit, because there's you know, 367 00:28:00.119 --> 00:28:03.400 if they're moving at a fast pace in their high intensity, it is almost 368 00:28:03.400 --> 00:28:11.920 impossible for us to encode what's happening there. Is it appropriate to tell someone 369 00:28:11.000 --> 00:28:17.119 my style and needs on the first date? I like this question, Is 370 00:28:17.119 --> 00:28:21.960 it appropriate? I don't see why it wouldn't be appropriate. I think that 371 00:28:22.319 --> 00:28:27.519 if you're dating or if you're interested in somebody, talking about your needs is 372 00:28:27.599 --> 00:28:30.720 essential. And I don't think that it has to be like a list of 373 00:28:30.759 --> 00:28:37.119 demands. But I think that there are ways to integrate showing parts of yourself 374 00:28:37.160 --> 00:28:41.759 to somebody to see if there's compatibility there. And I think that when it 375 00:28:41.799 --> 00:28:45.160 comes to talking about your attachment style. I think it would depend on the 376 00:28:45.160 --> 00:28:48.480 person that you're on a date with and what you're trying to communicate, Because 377 00:28:48.680 --> 00:28:52.319 are you saying I have an anxious attachment style? Like what are you hoping 378 00:28:52.400 --> 00:28:56.839 to get from that? That you could also just like offer in different ways. 379 00:28:56.000 --> 00:29:02.400 These attachment styles and language are very social media heavy right now, like 380 00:29:02.440 --> 00:29:04.480 everybody is talking about this sort of thing, and so I guess I would 381 00:29:04.480 --> 00:29:07.039 just be curious, like, what are you trying to communicate to that person? 382 00:29:07.160 --> 00:29:11.039 I think needs is fine. I think however you want to communicate it 383 00:29:11.119 --> 00:29:12.440 is fine, But I'd be curious, what are you trying to get out 384 00:29:12.440 --> 00:29:17.680 of that and trying to warn them of something, prepare them for something? 385 00:29:18.400 --> 00:29:22.920 Do you feel really seen and explained by that? I would be curious about 386 00:29:22.960 --> 00:29:26.319 that bit of it, but I don't think it's inappropriate. My experience on 387 00:29:26.519 --> 00:29:30.119 like sapphic first dates is that this almost always comes up on a first date 388 00:29:30.400 --> 00:29:33.759 and it's sort of like, here are the things we're going to cover on 389 00:29:33.799 --> 00:29:37.799 a sapphic first date. We're going to talk about astrology and we're maybe definitely 390 00:29:37.839 --> 00:29:40.160 astrology. Yeah, We're talk about astrology, and we're going to talk about 391 00:29:40.160 --> 00:29:44.279 our attachment style. I've definitely talked about my attachment style on a number of 392 00:29:44.319 --> 00:29:47.559 first dates. But now I'm asking myself a question you're asking Tomial, which 393 00:29:47.599 --> 00:29:49.240 is like, what, yeah, what is the desire are? What are 394 00:29:49.240 --> 00:29:52.720 we desiring to get out of that? I think within the queer community, 395 00:29:53.519 --> 00:29:57.319 attachment style is often a shared language and a quick way that we can sort 396 00:29:57.359 --> 00:30:00.000 of signal this is, this is what you're going to get if you get 397 00:30:00.000 --> 00:30:04.799 into this. But but yeah, maybe sometimes we are too quick to silo 398 00:30:04.880 --> 00:30:10.519 ourselves to that and don't actually explain and practice what that means. It's so 399 00:30:10.680 --> 00:30:15.039 interesting. I'm like, maybe like it's and like just to do another gay 400 00:30:15.079 --> 00:30:17.200 ass thing. I'm like, well, maybe it's the scorpio in me, 401 00:30:17.240 --> 00:30:19.759 But I just feel like I'm a little too private to be sharing that on 402 00:30:19.799 --> 00:30:23.480 the birthday, Like I'd be like, you don't, don't worry about it, 403 00:30:23.680 --> 00:30:26.720 Like why are you trying to get to know me so well? And 404 00:30:26.880 --> 00:30:32.240 there's your importance? Yeah? Exactly. Well, and I'm a Pisces, 405 00:30:32.400 --> 00:30:37.039 so I'm like my big three, I'm a Pisces, I'm anxious, and 406 00:30:37.119 --> 00:30:41.920 I don't know. I'd probably give them my personality to test results as well 407 00:30:41.000 --> 00:30:45.960 as partners. We are each other's teachers about ourselves, and at a good 408 00:30:45.960 --> 00:30:51.359 teacher ty traits information. You don't throw out terms that you don't know whether 409 00:30:51.400 --> 00:30:55.960 or not the other person understands. You don't teach when somebody isn't able to 410 00:30:55.960 --> 00:30:59.759 comprehend or isn't emotionally ready for what you're saying. So I think be a 411 00:30:59.799 --> 00:31:02.960 two to the person that you're sitting across. Do they know what attachment style 412 00:31:03.039 --> 00:31:04.640 is? Maybe start with that question, Hey, how do you feel about 413 00:31:04.640 --> 00:31:07.440 attachment? Is that something you think about? It wouldn't be cool if I 414 00:31:07.440 --> 00:31:11.480 shared a little bit about mine. You know, t treate the information. 415 00:31:12.000 --> 00:31:17.440 You don't have to get it all out there day one. Yeah, do 416 00:31:17.519 --> 00:31:21.759 you think someone with a predominantly fearful, avoidant attachment style would thrive more in 417 00:31:21.839 --> 00:31:26.079 polyamorous relationships as opposed to a monogamous relationship. No, I do not. 418 00:31:27.400 --> 00:31:30.599 I don't know. I think that I think that anyone of any attachment style 419 00:31:30.599 --> 00:31:33.240 can learn how to thrive in a monogamous relationship and can learn how to thrive 420 00:31:33.240 --> 00:31:37.319 in a polyamorous relationship. But I do understand where this question comes from. 421 00:31:37.359 --> 00:31:42.680 I think like people who might struggle with jealousy or anxiety might feel like, 422 00:31:42.759 --> 00:31:47.160 Gosh, if I just cared less, if I was less anxious or less 423 00:31:47.200 --> 00:31:51.240 jealous, then I do really well in a polyamorous relationship. And I think 424 00:31:51.240 --> 00:31:53.839 that that is a little bit of a misunderstanding of what avoidance means is I 425 00:31:53.839 --> 00:31:57.960 think people who have avoidant attachment are just as anxious, if not more anxious, 426 00:31:59.079 --> 00:32:02.200 than people would think attachment. They just express it differently. And then 427 00:32:02.559 --> 00:32:07.559 one thing that is required for the success of both monogamous and polyamorous relationships is 428 00:32:08.119 --> 00:32:13.119 being able to communicate what's going on for you. And I think that an 429 00:32:13.160 --> 00:32:15.359 avoidant attachment style, if you haven't had the chance to look at that and 430 00:32:15.400 --> 00:32:20.720 work through that yet, can make that kind of communication really challenging. Folks 431 00:32:20.759 --> 00:32:23.400 with avoidant attachment might bottle things up and then their feelings might come out in 432 00:32:23.440 --> 00:32:28.720 ways that surprise them and their partners. So I don't think any attachment style 433 00:32:28.759 --> 00:32:32.880 precludes you from any relationship style, and I think we should remember that that 434 00:32:32.960 --> 00:32:37.559 all of us are anxious. It just shows up differently depending on what your 435 00:32:37.599 --> 00:32:40.519 attachment style is. Yeah, I think you really hit the nail on the 436 00:32:40.559 --> 00:32:45.119 head with that. So I think that that's where people can often go when 437 00:32:45.319 --> 00:32:47.480 thinking about polyamory. They're like, oh, I'm way too anxious for that 438 00:32:47.720 --> 00:32:51.839 and really kind of write it off in that way. And so they're like, 439 00:32:51.880 --> 00:32:53.200 oh, well, if you're avoidant, like you would just thrive because 440 00:32:53.599 --> 00:32:59.400 it's being like misaligned with not caring. And yeah, like you said, 441 00:32:59.599 --> 00:33:05.079 in any type of nominogamy, I think communication and transparency are really important. 442 00:33:05.119 --> 00:33:08.319 So I think that everybody, when they're trying to learn more about themselves and 443 00:33:08.400 --> 00:33:13.400 learn about how they function in relationships, if that is a guidepost, then 444 00:33:13.680 --> 00:33:22.720 really anything is for everyone. Okay, this conversation about attachment obviously perfectly segues 445 00:33:22.720 --> 00:33:27.119 into talking about your book, and we got to hear a bit about your 446 00:33:27.119 --> 00:33:31.960 book writing process, and I'd love to ask you a few more questions about 447 00:33:32.000 --> 00:33:37.359 it. You're ready, You're ready? Yeah, Oh, I like this 448 00:33:37.400 --> 00:33:40.200 one. Will we get an audio book, so feel it all. It 449 00:33:40.240 --> 00:33:44.440 does come out in an audiobook. I did the audio recording a few weeks 450 00:33:44.480 --> 00:33:47.680 ago, and it's really a bonus because I was quite ill when I did 451 00:33:47.720 --> 00:33:52.480 this, and so my voice, yeah, I was like quite raspy, 452 00:33:52.680 --> 00:33:57.920 so it's very asmr. I feel like there's like an extra layer of enjoyment 453 00:33:57.960 --> 00:34:04.880 to be had because my voice is like, ooh oh, that's amazing. 454 00:34:04.920 --> 00:34:08.639 I love when I get more than I know favorite things I know. So 455 00:34:08.679 --> 00:34:12.960 anyway, yeah, I highly recommend that you check out the audio book. 456 00:34:13.400 --> 00:34:20.599 Oh how soothing. What was the hardest part about writing your book. I'm 457 00:34:20.639 --> 00:34:23.960 so used to writing in such small spurts on Instagram, write like three paragraphs 458 00:34:23.960 --> 00:34:27.599 at a time, and so to sit down with what it is now, 459 00:34:27.639 --> 00:34:30.840 like two hundred and seventy or whatever pages, and to have to weave my 460 00:34:30.880 --> 00:34:35.079 own story into it and ask myself, like what parts of myself I was 461 00:34:35.119 --> 00:34:38.440 ready to give to the world, Because I do share vulnerabily on social media, 462 00:34:38.480 --> 00:34:42.719 but I like to talk about how there's like level one vulnerability, level 463 00:34:42.719 --> 00:34:45.519 two vulnerability, level three vulnerability, and on social media I kind of like 464 00:34:45.639 --> 00:34:50.719 toggle between like level zero and level two, and I think in this book 465 00:34:50.760 --> 00:34:53.599 we really get to level three. And I'm sharing parts of my story from 466 00:34:53.679 --> 00:34:58.840 long before I was a queer sex therapist, a lot about when I myself 467 00:34:58.920 --> 00:35:02.639 was a client of sex there and I was deeply struggling with severe mental illness, 468 00:35:04.119 --> 00:35:07.559 which isn't a part of myself that I talk about a lot on social 469 00:35:07.599 --> 00:35:10.679 media, and so I think it was a long time ago somebody had given 470 00:35:10.679 --> 00:35:14.760 me the advice don't talk about your mental health history. It'll it'll decredit you. 471 00:35:15.239 --> 00:35:19.000 And even though logically I was like, that's bullshit, it really the 472 00:35:19.039 --> 00:35:23.320 shame of that has been a barrier and I did have to through this process. 473 00:35:23.360 --> 00:35:25.840 I did have to break through that and really believe that, like this 474 00:35:25.920 --> 00:35:30.679 wouldn't destroy my career, that this actually is why I'm good at what I 475 00:35:30.719 --> 00:35:35.800 do, and I can only sort of hope that that others feel the same 476 00:35:35.800 --> 00:35:37.719 way. And I believe like that the people that I want to be in 477 00:35:37.760 --> 00:35:40.039 community with will feel that way. Yeah, got to say, those are 478 00:35:40.079 --> 00:35:45.960 some of my favorite parts and moments of the book. Is just learning more 479 00:35:45.000 --> 00:35:50.960 about you and feeling your humanity, which I think you did so well in 480 00:35:51.280 --> 00:35:54.280 sharing that and bringing people into your story, which I think helps them reflect 481 00:35:54.280 --> 00:36:00.079 on their own. So thank you, Thanks for digging deep. Thanks a 482 00:36:00.159 --> 00:36:07.639 lot. Yeah, could you share a quote that you're really proud of and 483 00:36:07.719 --> 00:36:09.840 why that quote is special to you? I will share one that I have 484 00:36:10.000 --> 00:36:14.679 that I know off the top of my head, but that I also it's 485 00:36:14.760 --> 00:36:19.079 just it's so simple. It's sometimes the sound of sexual awakening is a scream. 486 00:36:19.840 --> 00:36:23.760 And what I feel like that quote encompasses is that, like, obviously, 487 00:36:23.800 --> 00:36:30.119 this whole white Western wellness composite would have us thinking that our awakenings have 488 00:36:30.159 --> 00:36:36.039 to take place like buy the sea on a yoga matt deep breathing, or 489 00:36:36.079 --> 00:36:39.559 like with a partner in bed having a really intimate moment. But I really 490 00:36:39.920 --> 00:36:45.039 believe that the type of sexual awakening that we need is this sort of like 491 00:36:45.760 --> 00:36:52.440 midday running errands, middle of being stressed moments, small moments that compile over 492 00:36:52.519 --> 00:36:55.559 time, and that the process of awakening can be really painful, like this 493 00:36:55.599 --> 00:37:00.239 is a rebirth, and birth comes with labor pains, and so this might 494 00:37:00.360 --> 00:37:04.400 hurt. All right, this might be painful, And I think I want 495 00:37:04.400 --> 00:37:08.000 to give folks permission to embrace what is happening with our sexuality as an awakening, 496 00:37:08.119 --> 00:37:12.880 even if it doesn't look the way that we're taught that awakenings should look 497 00:37:13.400 --> 00:37:22.079 or have looked for other people. But this week's safe word et has suggested 498 00:37:22.079 --> 00:37:27.360 one for us, and it is asparagus, which is great, you know, 499 00:37:27.639 --> 00:37:30.920 a good springtime vet. We're here for it. Safe word is hosted 500 00:37:30.960 --> 00:37:35.920 by Casey Tanner and Neil Lewis, and is produced by coordinator E. T. 501 00:37:36.079 --> 00:37:38.960 Townsend. Our theme song is written and performed by Emma Jane and Toria 502 00:37:39.039 --> 00:37:43.920 Rainey. To support the show, please follow us on Spotify and take a 503 00:37:43.960 --> 00:37:47.199 moment right now to give us five stars. We also love rave reviews on 504 00:37:47.280 --> 00:37:52.519 Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts. Ready for your next sexual awakening. 505 00:37:52.840 --> 00:37:57.119 You're never too old, too traumatized, or too inexperienced to begin or 506 00:37:57.159 --> 00:38:00.840 begin again. I wrote my book to usher in a new kind of awakening, 507 00:38:00.199 --> 00:38:02.719 not one that leaves you feeling like you should have a certain kind of 508 00:38:02.760 --> 00:38:07.480 sex, be in a particular kind of relationship, or feel positively all the 509 00:38:07.519 --> 00:38:10.639 time. Feel It All is an invitation to coming back home to yourself. 510 00:38:12.320 --> 00:38:15.320 Order it now to be one of the first people to read it. Yay 511 00:38:15.320 --> 00:38:20.159 if anything today. May be curious about seeking support. The Expansive Group has 512 00:38:20.199 --> 00:38:23.519 a great team of therapists and mentors to discuss challenges you may be facing. 513 00:38:24.239 --> 00:38:29.480 Go to the Expansivegroup dot com, submit a contact form and we'll help you 514 00:38:29.559 --> 00:38:32.599 get connected. We're not sure yet when we're going to be back onto a 515 00:38:32.639 --> 00:38:37.480 new season. We're really valuing our rest right now, but we'll get back 516 00:38:37.480 --> 00:38:40.679 to you soon. Yes we will. And for behind the scenes look at 517 00:38:40.679 --> 00:38:45.519 Safeword and podcast updates, find us on Instagram at safeword pod