1 00:00:12,119 --> 00:00:27,559 This is Jonathan Peshel. Welcome to the Symbolic World. Hello everyone. I'm 2 00:00:27,600 --> 00:00:31,440 happy to be back here with Timothy Petitsa. Many of you have seen him 3 00:00:31,480 --> 00:00:35,240 on my channel once before, but most of you know him, uh, 4 00:00:35,600 --> 00:00:41,399 you know, as a as an author and the Ethics of Beauty, especially 5 00:00:41,479 --> 00:00:45,520 because it's a book that many people that have come to the Symbolic world and 6 00:00:45,600 --> 00:00:49,640 many people even that are coming to Orthodoxy today are reading as part of their 7 00:00:49,719 --> 00:00:53,920 path on the way to that to that world, and it offers such a 8 00:00:53,960 --> 00:01:00,280 powerful vision, you know, of human engagement and what beauty can do for 9 00:01:00,399 --> 00:01:03,560 us. And so, you know, Timothy started a new film company that 10 00:01:04,400 --> 00:01:11,599 I just saw the first movie on on st Amphilochios of pat most wonderful film, 11 00:01:11,640 --> 00:01:14,040 and so I thought it'd be a great opportunity to maybe talk a bit 12 00:01:14,079 --> 00:01:18,239 about that, but then obviously continue to talk about beauty and it's important for 13 00:01:18,280 --> 00:01:22,159 the for the meaning crisis. So Timothy, thanks for showing up. Thank 14 00:01:22,200 --> 00:01:25,879 you, Jonathan. It's it's great to be here. And so, you 15 00:01:25,920 --> 00:01:30,000 know, how do you go from you know, professor teacher at a at 16 00:01:30,000 --> 00:01:34,599 a colled Deen at some point of the Hellenic College and now starting a film 17 00:01:34,599 --> 00:01:40,159 company. What what was the impetus for this? Yeah, that's a good 18 00:01:40,200 --> 00:01:46,680 question. I mean, I I like cinema. I certainly like I think 19 00:01:46,719 --> 00:01:52,120 of film as you know, I think of it as well. I think 20 00:01:52,120 --> 00:01:56,239 a lot about you know, how information has been recorded and transmitted over you 21 00:01:56,280 --> 00:02:00,879 know, human the span of human existence, and this idea that you know, 22 00:02:00,000 --> 00:02:05,879 long before there was writing, there were people sitting around campfires telling in 23 00:02:05,920 --> 00:02:10,039 our fires at night, you know, telling stories, and it's so primordial 24 00:02:10,599 --> 00:02:16,360 and it seems like such a good way to transmit information from generation to generation. 25 00:02:16,759 --> 00:02:23,639 And and to me, the film on the big screen, it is 26 00:02:24,319 --> 00:02:27,680 the story is in the fire. You know, you're in this, You're 27 00:02:27,680 --> 00:02:30,319 in this, you're in the dark. The campfire or the fire is the 28 00:02:30,360 --> 00:02:34,919 screen. That's the light, and the story is there too, And I 29 00:02:34,960 --> 00:02:40,319 think that's just so powerful and such a beautiful experience. And any anything that 30 00:02:40,360 --> 00:02:44,280 can be told in that way I think is worth trying to tell. Of 31 00:02:44,319 --> 00:02:46,680 course, you know, followers of Plato will say, you know, we're 32 00:02:46,680 --> 00:02:51,719 looking at the shadows on the on the wall of the cave, and that 33 00:02:51,840 --> 00:02:57,639 it's it's really the worst way to tell information. But I think it's Christians 34 00:02:57,680 --> 00:03:00,400 we don't. We don't also believe that we think Christ actually fills the cave 35 00:03:00,520 --> 00:03:07,360 up. And so the idea that that Christ fills up the world with his 36 00:03:07,479 --> 00:03:12,000 glory and all things are it's a different vision than from what Plato presented. 37 00:03:12,080 --> 00:03:15,240 You know. It's like the images on the wall the cave and the Christian 38 00:03:15,319 --> 00:03:19,919 vision have a reason for being there, and in some ways they're the ones 39 00:03:19,960 --> 00:03:23,000 that would lead you up out of the cave if you were able to see 40 00:03:23,000 --> 00:03:28,080 them as an anagogical ladder. And so I think that it's a it's I 41 00:03:28,120 --> 00:03:31,800 think that's a more consistent vision with how reality functions than the simple than the 42 00:03:31,840 --> 00:03:37,879 one Plato presents as just the as the illusions and then someone pulling you out 43 00:03:37,919 --> 00:03:42,400 of the illusions into this this pure light. Did I did? I? 44 00:03:42,479 --> 00:03:46,039 That's that's so well said. Did I ever tell you the story of meeting 45 00:03:46,039 --> 00:03:51,680 the Patriarch of Antioch? No, it was it was it was a not 46 00:03:51,800 --> 00:03:53,639 the current patriarch, but the previous one. I don't remember his name. 47 00:03:53,680 --> 00:03:59,039 Maybe it was ignacious, But I was at a conference, a bioethics conference 48 00:03:59,039 --> 00:04:02,919 in two thousand and eight in Bala Monde, and someone said the patriarch wants 49 00:04:03,000 --> 00:04:06,639 to meet you a hundred people at this conference, Like, what's that about? 50 00:04:08,439 --> 00:04:10,759 And we were summoned to a room and we waited. It was like, 51 00:04:10,800 --> 00:04:14,919 you know, one of these sort of appointed rooms, and his beatitude 52 00:04:14,960 --> 00:04:16,720 came in and we stood up and took his blessing. There was another guy 53 00:04:16,720 --> 00:04:23,240 from Greece and the patriarchs sat down and he said, and he had this 54 00:04:23,439 --> 00:04:27,600 very classic voice, as patriarchs tend to, and his was kind of like 55 00:04:27,639 --> 00:04:31,360 a little like rough sandpaper type of voice, and I want to try to 56 00:04:31,439 --> 00:04:35,839 impersonate it, but he said, the trouble with you Greeks is that you 57 00:04:35,879 --> 00:04:41,839 are all dualists. And while while we were, you know, reeling from 58 00:04:41,839 --> 00:04:46,759 that opening statement, the opening statement, Yeah you asked me to come here, 59 00:04:46,199 --> 00:04:49,519 I'm reminded you invited me. You know, I'm just saying, and 60 00:04:49,600 --> 00:04:55,720 his next statement was, even a rock has a soul, And that was 61 00:04:55,759 --> 00:05:00,360 it. That was the whole meeting. That was the meeting. And and 62 00:05:00,439 --> 00:05:02,480 of course you know I had it done Old Testament here at seminary, so 63 00:05:02,759 --> 00:05:06,000 I knew that the Semitic view, you don't say I have a body, 64 00:05:06,040 --> 00:05:11,519 you know, you speak much more in terms of I am a body I 65 00:05:11,560 --> 00:05:15,720 am this unity, or at least my task is to make that integration even 66 00:05:15,839 --> 00:05:20,360 more so. And but certainly people think of Plato, as you know, 67 00:05:20,439 --> 00:05:26,199 as having introduced a kind of dualism into the West, although although left Cheestov 68 00:05:26,279 --> 00:05:29,319 thought, you know, it just depend which depended which dialogue you were reading, 69 00:05:29,480 --> 00:05:31,240 you know, whether whether Plato was the problem, you know, but 70 00:05:31,279 --> 00:05:35,279 anyway, Platini's was good. Yeah, well Platina I definitely Platonis is I 71 00:05:35,279 --> 00:05:41,600 mean, and there's such a connection between Christian and Platonis that you do find 72 00:05:41,720 --> 00:05:46,160 some vision, a non dual vision that takes you out of this problem. 73 00:05:46,240 --> 00:05:49,319 So tell us now why you started, why you started this film company, 74 00:05:49,319 --> 00:05:53,319 because we haven't answered that question yet. I just saw the movie. I 75 00:05:53,360 --> 00:05:58,920 just saw it last week. I was in bc at doing a parish retreat 76 00:05:59,720 --> 00:06:05,000 and the and someone said the movie and for Enfilochio's Saint of pat Moses playing, 77 00:06:05,000 --> 00:06:06,920 and so there you were. I could see you, and you were 78 00:06:08,000 --> 00:06:10,079 part of you actually in the movie. I didn't know you were going to 79 00:06:10,480 --> 00:06:13,680 be in the movie as well. Uh. And one of the things about 80 00:06:13,720 --> 00:06:17,480 it that really astounded me was, you know, it was obviously the life 81 00:06:17,680 --> 00:06:23,680 of the Saint the powerful testimony, but also not shying away from some stories 82 00:06:23,680 --> 00:06:28,439 that were really out there, like that were really the story the old lady 83 00:06:28,560 --> 00:06:31,879 saying how in the same when he was a baby would not suckle, you 84 00:06:31,879 --> 00:06:38,079 know, on fasting days like that kind of really legendary type of way of 85 00:06:38,120 --> 00:06:41,439 speaking about saints. It surprised me, and in some ways I thought, 86 00:06:41,480 --> 00:06:43,920 like, of course him, he's gonna was not going to shy away from 87 00:06:43,959 --> 00:06:48,519 those types of stories. But I thought it was wonderful. Yeah, So 88 00:06:48,839 --> 00:06:51,120 what did you think of the film as a film though? Overall? I 89 00:06:51,120 --> 00:06:56,839 mean, it's it's it's yeah, I won't, I won't. Is it 90 00:06:56,839 --> 00:06:59,399 well done? I enjoyed it? Of course I enjoyed it, you know. 91 00:06:59,439 --> 00:07:02,319 I mean it's it's a documentary, and it has all the tropes of 92 00:07:02,360 --> 00:07:09,439 the documentary, you know, painting visions of the of the areas with voiceover. 93 00:07:09,879 --> 00:07:13,079 You know. I thought it was very is very it was very well 94 00:07:13,120 --> 00:07:15,480 done. It did what it had to, you know. And I'm also 95 00:07:15,639 --> 00:07:19,319 I'm not curious to know why you chose that subject to as well, So 96 00:07:19,600 --> 00:07:23,040 maybe you can tell us a bit about, you know, the birth of 97 00:07:23,079 --> 00:07:29,600 this project. So one of my closest friends is Tamaida Hudanish, and she 98 00:07:30,720 --> 00:07:33,839 was the director of Missions and Evangelism for the San Francisco Metropolis, So she 99 00:07:34,040 --> 00:07:36,160 was on the West coast. I was here on the East coast, and 100 00:07:36,199 --> 00:07:41,399 we would work together professionally or run into each other when she was in Boston 101 00:07:41,480 --> 00:07:46,240 doing stuff. And we both had wanted to do something in film or television 102 00:07:46,920 --> 00:07:53,199 that would help people experience pilgrimage. So I think both of us felt like 103 00:07:53,839 --> 00:08:01,040 pilgrimage is just such a central aspect of renewal and of joy in Orthodox life 104 00:08:01,040 --> 00:08:07,360 and in Christian life. And we've gone on to lots of pilgrimages, and 105 00:08:09,199 --> 00:08:13,879 many times when we've been cool places, we've thought, if only I had 106 00:08:13,920 --> 00:08:16,879 a good camera right here, I could just say something, even if it's 107 00:08:16,879 --> 00:08:20,040 you know, thirty seconds or a minute. And so we were we were 108 00:08:20,079 --> 00:08:24,439 looking in you know, in those terms. So we founded Beauty First Films, 109 00:08:24,439 --> 00:08:28,480 and people want to know the film is called Amphilochios Saints of Potmos, 110 00:08:28,519 --> 00:08:33,519 and he reposed in nineteen seventy. But we were looking for projects of what 111 00:08:33,679 --> 00:08:39,240 to do and that would I mean for me as an educator, it's just 112 00:08:39,360 --> 00:08:45,399 it's just a different way to educate. I don't mean that a film should 113 00:08:45,399 --> 00:08:48,440 be didactic. I mean that, you know, because obviously, as a 114 00:08:48,480 --> 00:08:52,679 beauty first person, I don't think you know, I don't think education is 115 00:08:52,759 --> 00:08:58,639 you know, involves the whole soul and everything. But but we realized that 116 00:08:58,679 --> 00:09:03,639 the first first ever feast day of this saint, Saint Amphilochio so Popmost, 117 00:09:03,679 --> 00:09:07,799 was coming up in April of twenty nineteen, and we realized that it would 118 00:09:07,840 --> 00:09:15,200 be like a very a very defined window that to tell the story of his 119 00:09:15,279 --> 00:09:18,360 life in the words of people who knew him or were big devotees and happened 120 00:09:18,399 --> 00:09:22,039 to come to the first feast day on the island of Popmost. I mean, 121 00:09:22,200 --> 00:09:26,240 the story sort of already writes itself, right, And it's not like 122 00:09:26,279 --> 00:09:31,679 a six month production or three year production. It's just four to five days 123 00:09:33,120 --> 00:09:35,480 of interviewing everyone you can. So we knew it was a kind of a 124 00:09:35,600 --> 00:09:39,879 manageable, bite sized chunk, and that was, you know, one reason 125 00:09:39,879 --> 00:09:41,120 why we went with it. And then of course we love the saint. 126 00:09:41,519 --> 00:09:48,320 Yeah, and so is your plan to do documentaries mostly? Are you also 127 00:09:48,360 --> 00:09:54,000 would like to do some fiction? I well, we this was twenty nineteen, 128 00:09:54,080 --> 00:10:01,399 so we went from we went from Popmost you know, through Athens straight 129 00:10:01,440 --> 00:10:05,320 to Tel Aviv and we filmed all of Orthodox Holy Week that year of twenty 130 00:10:05,399 --> 00:10:09,360 nineteen, which you know, may have been a kind of special moment in 131 00:10:09,480 --> 00:10:11,639 time, the end of an era, you know, as it turned out. 132 00:10:11,799 --> 00:10:16,399 So that is now in post production, So that'll be our next film 133 00:10:16,440 --> 00:10:18,000 and we'll just we'll just take it from there. I mean, we would 134 00:10:18,039 --> 00:10:24,200 certainly like to find, you know, more financial support that could get one 135 00:10:24,200 --> 00:10:28,120 of us, not me, doing this full time, because I think we 136 00:10:28,120 --> 00:10:31,799 can do a lot more. And I don't know if you've seen our Beauty 137 00:10:31,799 --> 00:10:37,120 first films, liturgical seasons, calendar, so we've got creative ideas and tom 138 00:10:37,120 --> 00:10:43,120 Aida has a beautiful eye, so she knows how to make things. Yeah, 139 00:10:43,240 --> 00:10:46,840 you know, it's just you know, I mean, I think it's 140 00:10:46,840 --> 00:10:50,960 a great it's a great project. It's a great idea. You know. 141 00:10:52,240 --> 00:10:56,799 What what do you see because of course, you you know, you wrote 142 00:10:56,840 --> 00:11:03,039 the Ethics of Beauty and sow you're involved in make beautiful things. What do 143 00:11:03,080 --> 00:11:07,320 you see the role of beauty playing in the meaning crisis in general? Because 144 00:11:07,519 --> 00:11:11,519 you know, we both are probably in a similar position in the words for 145 00:11:11,559 --> 00:11:16,840 people that are coming at it and are learning about Orthodoxy. It seems like 146 00:11:16,879 --> 00:11:22,279 beauty is also part of how they find a kind of solution to the meaning 147 00:11:22,279 --> 00:11:26,840 crisis, which what would have seemed surprising to someone even fifty years ago it'd 148 00:11:26,840 --> 00:11:31,159 say that one of the solutions denihilism is beauty. But if you want to 149 00:11:31,200 --> 00:11:35,279 tell us a bit about how you see that functioning, I mean, there's 150 00:11:35,320 --> 00:11:39,960 so many levels in whish to answer that, and I you know, there's 151 00:11:39,000 --> 00:11:45,399 more philosophical, more theological. I mean, I'm just starting with basic biology, 152 00:11:45,600 --> 00:11:50,519 which is that you know, most living things out there are are do 153 00:11:50,639 --> 00:11:54,720 not have a cerebral cortex, and yet they're making decisions just fine, and 154 00:11:54,759 --> 00:12:03,200 they're surviving and they're propagating, and they are they are able to discern in 155 00:12:03,240 --> 00:12:07,360 the structure of the world, you know, to the extent they need to 156 00:12:07,000 --> 00:12:15,320 and to respond appropriately. And so you know, how are they doing this. 157 00:12:15,360 --> 00:12:18,399 They're doing this through sensation. And if you go down to you know, 158 00:12:18,399 --> 00:12:22,799 the most basic cellular level, it's somehow at the level of chemistry that 159 00:12:24,480 --> 00:12:30,360 you know, things are you know, the paramesium, the bacterial is out 160 00:12:30,399 --> 00:12:35,679 there sensing and reacting. So to imagine that human beings, you know, 161 00:12:35,799 --> 00:12:39,960 unless you are are an exceptional theist, I mean not even a theist, 162 00:12:41,000 --> 00:12:48,759 but a gnostic. Then then to imagine that human beings can divorce feeling from 163 00:12:48,840 --> 00:12:54,480 knowing, or divorce knowing from feeling and sensing is really ridiculous. I mean, 164 00:12:54,480 --> 00:13:03,679 it's just nuts. Everything is out there making decision and flourishing without the 165 00:13:03,720 --> 00:13:07,279 brain. I mean, just some things have brains. And then that's another 166 00:13:07,360 --> 00:13:13,440 story, you know. And so why do you formulate it as beauty? 167 00:13:13,480 --> 00:13:16,519 Because if you know, the way that I would formulate it originally is I 168 00:13:16,559 --> 00:13:20,600 would I would talk about goodness, you know, in the in the way 169 00:13:20,639 --> 00:13:26,840 that Dante talks about goodness, or in the idea of that which is desirable, 170 00:13:28,039 --> 00:13:31,879 maybe even just that, like the idea of moving towards that which is 171 00:13:33,000 --> 00:13:35,720 desirable, you know. And so why is it that you feel the need 172 00:13:35,759 --> 00:13:41,519 to formulate it as beauty? Well, didn't Aristotle say that the beautiful is 173 00:13:41,559 --> 00:13:48,080 the radiance of the good or something? So, so to survive we need 174 00:13:50,080 --> 00:13:58,200 we need to remember again, you know, how to how to think visually, 175 00:13:58,399 --> 00:14:03,919 how to think in terms of holes. We're we're trying to design a 176 00:14:03,919 --> 00:14:07,799 new major right now at the college, and I can't say what it is. 177 00:14:07,159 --> 00:14:13,600 But the thing that convinces me that it's worth doing is the beauty of 178 00:14:13,639 --> 00:14:18,080 it. And and then the question, you know, has arisen, well, 179 00:14:18,600 --> 00:14:24,840 is that a sufficient grounds It isn't maybe, but maybe it is, 180 00:14:24,919 --> 00:14:31,120 because a feeling for beauty or for harmony is you know, it's it's the 181 00:14:31,240 --> 00:14:37,000 fastest way often to discern the health of a situation, and the health, 182 00:14:37,039 --> 00:14:39,279 you know, as a cipher for that underlying, underlying, you know, 183 00:14:39,320 --> 00:14:46,360 good functioning. So we were not computers. We are you know, we're 184 00:14:46,519 --> 00:14:52,360 we're biological beings and we're you know, we're just that's we have that capacity 185 00:14:52,360 --> 00:14:58,120 and we don't have the possibility of thought without that capacity. Yeah, and 186 00:14:58,159 --> 00:15:01,679 there's so yeah, I think that's right. And but there's a there's an 187 00:15:01,720 --> 00:15:05,840 intuitive aspect to the way you're presenting it, which is that, you know, 188 00:15:05,879 --> 00:15:11,080 our capacity to perceive health is it good? It's a it's a good 189 00:15:11,120 --> 00:15:13,879 way to talk about beauty in a way that that might stretch people. You 190 00:15:13,919 --> 00:15:20,480 know, when I look at someone, I perceive health very much so because 191 00:15:20,519 --> 00:15:24,559 I'm so, I'm my whole being is there to detect that, to know 192 00:15:24,639 --> 00:15:30,080 even in terms of like infection, even something like that or to understand in 193 00:15:30,120 --> 00:15:33,320 the situation that I'm dealing with. And a lot of our markers for physical 194 00:15:33,360 --> 00:15:39,039 beauty are really just health markers and and symmetry markers, you know, to 195 00:15:39,720 --> 00:15:45,399 to to be able to tell, you know, how how aligned someone is 196 00:15:45,679 --> 00:15:52,799 towards reality, and so we can then we can then uh understand that humans 197 00:15:52,840 --> 00:15:56,480 have that capacity in general, not just towards people, but also towards situations. 198 00:15:56,519 --> 00:16:02,039 You know, when you you enter a room and there's disorder, you 199 00:16:02,039 --> 00:16:03,960 know, you know, if people are moving in ways that is not normal, 200 00:16:04,080 --> 00:16:07,159 like you know, the thay you walked into a room where people have 201 00:16:07,360 --> 00:16:12,120 just had a fight, and you will be able to detect that intuitively without 202 00:16:12,240 --> 00:16:17,200 thinking yet, because there'll be things will be laid out in a manner, 203 00:16:17,200 --> 00:16:19,840 and the movements of the people will be happening in a in a in a 204 00:16:19,879 --> 00:16:26,120 disorderly way, and you'll catch that really fat even with before you're thinking. 205 00:16:26,200 --> 00:16:29,159 And so, you know, I think that's an interesting way of talking about 206 00:16:30,039 --> 00:16:36,120 a very very immediate manner in which beauty matters. There's so many aspects of 207 00:16:36,159 --> 00:16:37,840 this, and one of them is, you know, I think you know, 208 00:16:37,879 --> 00:16:42,919 the pivotal chapter for the twenty first century is chapter twenty two of the 209 00:16:42,960 --> 00:16:48,039 Death and Life of Great American Cities, by Jane Jacob's mind friend and mentor, 210 00:16:48,399 --> 00:16:56,240 and that's the chapter where she presents Warren Weaver's summation of the past three 211 00:16:56,360 --> 00:17:00,679 hundred and sixty years of science, you know, science since we've had the 212 00:17:00,759 --> 00:17:07,680 scientific method, and he says, although science is vast and does a lot 213 00:17:07,680 --> 00:17:11,680 of things, in fact, there are three kinds of problems that we know 214 00:17:11,759 --> 00:17:15,359 how to solve. Three three you know, as as a genus of problem, 215 00:17:15,480 --> 00:17:21,559 there's only three, and and one of them is the problem in organized 216 00:17:21,640 --> 00:17:26,160 complexity. And what Jane Jacobs does you know the problem with It's a living 217 00:17:26,200 --> 00:17:30,559 system. It's an organism, and society is like that. The economies are 218 00:17:30,599 --> 00:17:34,640 that, cities are that, families are that, institutions are that. You 219 00:17:34,640 --> 00:17:38,519 know, companies are that. And and when you are in that realm, 220 00:17:40,039 --> 00:17:47,359 Jane Jacobs gives you here are the tactics for Here are the tactics for understanding 221 00:17:47,440 --> 00:17:49,599 those kind of systems. And in chapter eight of my book, I lay 222 00:17:49,680 --> 00:17:53,440 this out, and I add several tactics of my own that are implied in 223 00:17:53,480 --> 00:18:00,039 her work or that I've so but an eye for beauty train training and beauty 224 00:18:00,359 --> 00:18:03,279 or training in grammar, because you know, for me, beauty, goodness, 225 00:18:03,359 --> 00:18:07,359 truth is the trivium of grammar, logic, rhetoric. But training and 226 00:18:07,440 --> 00:18:15,119 pattern is the best training for understanding living systems or just systems. And you'll 227 00:18:15,680 --> 00:18:21,000 a person training they know in a flash, m all the all the and 228 00:18:21,400 --> 00:18:26,400 and Jane James specifically says, this all the statistics that you can compile about 229 00:18:26,559 --> 00:18:32,039 and in this case it was Boston's North End. Just you know, they 230 00:18:32,039 --> 00:18:36,480 don't tell you the full story, but to go there and observe unaverage clues. 231 00:18:37,160 --> 00:18:40,200 Now you said, well, we're better look for different statistics. Yeah, 232 00:18:40,319 --> 00:18:44,480 yeah, I mean that's and I think the city example is a great 233 00:18:44,519 --> 00:18:49,039 example in the sense that you know, and I mean everybody's had these experiences 234 00:18:49,079 --> 00:18:52,160 like you're walking in a city that you don't know, all of a sudden, 235 00:18:52,200 --> 00:18:56,200 you take a turn, and then all of a sudden you realize that 236 00:18:56,279 --> 00:18:59,720 you've taken the wrong turn, and that now you know that you're not in 237 00:18:59,759 --> 00:19:03,039 a place you probably should be, or that you're in a place where all 238 00:19:03,039 --> 00:19:07,799 of a sudden the risk has gone up, you know, substantially, And 239 00:19:07,839 --> 00:19:11,640 you can tell that even if there's no people there, Like, even if 240 00:19:11,640 --> 00:19:15,559 there aren't people there that are suspicious or whatever, you can tell by by 241 00:19:15,839 --> 00:19:19,200 by a myriad of signs that are that are coming together in a pattern. 242 00:19:21,119 --> 00:19:25,200 You know, that is saying that to you, you know, and that 243 00:19:25,240 --> 00:19:30,720 I think is a great example to understand and you can understand how sometimes you 244 00:19:30,759 --> 00:19:34,000 know, the cliche of fixing a city by saying we don't want broken windows, 245 00:19:34,039 --> 00:19:37,839 right, that kind of cliche where it's to say that if you actually 246 00:19:37,880 --> 00:19:42,359 transform the pattern of the city itself, you can't even transform the culture that 247 00:19:42,440 --> 00:19:48,319 people live in. Because if I if I'm walking through a dumb I know 248 00:19:48,440 --> 00:19:51,799 that I can just toss something on the ground and it doesn't matter even if 249 00:19:51,880 --> 00:19:55,240 you might even not do that. But if I'm walking through a place that 250 00:19:55,400 --> 00:19:59,599 is cared for, in pristine and is full of care and attention, then 251 00:19:59,720 --> 00:20:03,799 even and my worst, my worst habits might be rained in by the space 252 00:20:03,799 --> 00:20:07,799 in which I'm in. I mean, that's a powerful testimony to beauty right 253 00:20:07,799 --> 00:20:11,480 there. So so yeah, I think training in the liberal arts or the 254 00:20:11,480 --> 00:20:18,119 fine arts, you know, is is vital for people to acquire wisdom or 255 00:20:18,160 --> 00:20:22,440 to lead a big picture level, like you shouldn't trust leaders who don't have 256 00:20:23,000 --> 00:20:30,160 a good aesthetic sensibility. And anyone, anyone could see that our approach to 257 00:20:30,279 --> 00:20:36,599 farming this like highly centralized government subsidized the car gills and all this, and 258 00:20:36,720 --> 00:20:41,039 the you know, the the erasure of the family farm and of rural culture, 259 00:20:41,200 --> 00:20:45,039 and the chemicals and you know, of different kinds the fertilizers and the 260 00:20:45,079 --> 00:20:52,000 pesticides and all this that compared to regenerative agriculture. Anyone with a with a 261 00:20:52,000 --> 00:20:57,000 liberal arts degree will know one is sick and one is healthy. But people 262 00:20:57,599 --> 00:21:03,599 with trained in the other kinds of science, reductive or statistical, will not 263 00:21:03,720 --> 00:21:08,519 see that, and they will push us to the point of collapse. And 264 00:21:08,720 --> 00:21:14,559 that brings us, eventually now or later to Ian McGilchrist, the Master and 265 00:21:14,599 --> 00:21:18,559 his Emissary, because what he's doing in that book is saying, you know, 266 00:21:18,759 --> 00:21:26,799 is basically saying that the brain hemispheres really are meant to unfold in a 267 00:21:26,839 --> 00:21:32,720 beauty, goodness, truth sequence, and that we've lost that, We've lost 268 00:21:32,799 --> 00:21:37,680 the right hemisphere, we've lost the feeling for holes, and we are reflexibly 269 00:21:37,039 --> 00:21:42,559 repeating things you know that are good, that are driving us to exhaustion and 270 00:21:42,559 --> 00:21:48,319 destruction. And so I mean It's interesting because I imagine when you wrote The 271 00:21:48,319 --> 00:21:52,279 Ethics of Beauty, weren't aware of I mcgil Chris. So what as his 272 00:21:52,480 --> 00:21:56,559 work? How does it transform your vision or how's it affected the way you 273 00:21:57,119 --> 00:22:02,920 understand beauty. I think it just made me want to kind of just just 274 00:22:03,240 --> 00:22:08,000 collapse, exhausted, like we don't need my book. We've got that, 275 00:22:08,440 --> 00:22:15,039 Oh my goodness. I know. I think you know he he ought to 276 00:22:15,079 --> 00:22:18,920 read the Ethics of Beauty and I ought to finish the master in his necessary 277 00:22:19,200 --> 00:22:23,079 and then he's got this other one that's called The Matter with Things. Oh 278 00:22:23,119 --> 00:22:26,799 my goodness, that book. It's it's like if I mcgrucus you've ever seen 279 00:22:26,839 --> 00:22:30,279 this, that book. You're not allowed to write books like that anymore. 280 00:22:30,279 --> 00:22:33,119 We're not in the seventeenth century. It's like, this is this is an 281 00:22:33,160 --> 00:22:37,000 attack on us, this book. And so you know, I know people 282 00:22:37,039 --> 00:22:41,400 that have bought it and they keep it on their table as as like daunting, 283 00:22:41,680 --> 00:22:44,400 as a daunting thing. I'm not even there yet. One day I 284 00:22:44,400 --> 00:22:47,039 will buy it, but then you'll stay on my table for like a year 285 00:22:47,079 --> 00:22:49,839 before I even touch it. But I mean, you know, the thing, 286 00:22:51,000 --> 00:22:55,839 the thing there with just what he shows you is that essentially you're meant 287 00:22:56,200 --> 00:23:00,359 that the two atmospheres do everything together. But the quality of the kind of 288 00:23:00,400 --> 00:23:04,880 attention that the right hemisphere, for right handed people, the right hemisphere brings 289 00:23:06,640 --> 00:23:11,119 is it's concerned with holes and then the left hemisphere is concerned with parts and 290 00:23:11,599 --> 00:23:15,880 the way thinking ought to proceed, he says, is this a sense of 291 00:23:17,039 --> 00:23:22,759 context, handing off to the left brain for analysis, handing back to the 292 00:23:22,839 --> 00:23:27,400 right brain for reintegration. So that's exactly what I lay out. I mean, 293 00:23:27,480 --> 00:23:30,720 the Ethics of Beauty is you know, it's a book about cognition, 294 00:23:30,880 --> 00:23:33,640 is a book about many things, but it's a you know, the structure 295 00:23:33,680 --> 00:23:37,240 of what it means to know and as a human being, not as a 296 00:23:37,240 --> 00:23:44,160 computer. So it's the same exact parallel. So so Noah, what does 297 00:23:44,160 --> 00:23:47,599 that really add? I think just confirmation. For me, it's confirmation. 298 00:23:48,319 --> 00:23:49,640 And then he has, you know, kind of a theory of history of 299 00:23:51,240 --> 00:23:55,839 you know that civilizations start out with a balance between the hemispheres, and then 300 00:23:56,000 --> 00:24:00,240 as they as they as they succeed, they get greedy, and as they 301 00:24:00,240 --> 00:24:04,119 get greedy and gluttonous, they start to rely more and more on the left 302 00:24:04,119 --> 00:24:10,480 hemisphere. They just want to they want more, and and then this coincides 303 00:24:10,960 --> 00:24:15,680 with a decline and intelligence, like real intelligence, that global intelligence, and 304 00:24:15,720 --> 00:24:21,599 so they exhaust themselves. They just drive themselves to destruction. Yeah, and 305 00:24:21,640 --> 00:24:23,680 so how do you see that in like a you know, this is it 306 00:24:23,799 --> 00:24:27,839 to me? Is it? There is a challenge. Let's say, I 307 00:24:27,839 --> 00:24:33,400 would say to us leaving as an Orthodox Christian because you know, we have 308 00:24:33,960 --> 00:24:37,720 at this point. It wasn't the case forever, but at this point we 309 00:24:37,799 --> 00:24:44,240 have something that we could call a liturgical algorithm. Like we have a program. 310 00:24:44,519 --> 00:24:47,720 We've got it all, We've got all the books and we've got it. 311 00:24:47,759 --> 00:24:51,240 We've got all the all the canons and all the matins, and you 312 00:24:51,279 --> 00:24:53,319 know, it's all there, and you could run it like you'd probably run 313 00:24:53,319 --> 00:24:57,160 it, you know, on a computer. You could have a computer running 314 00:24:57,200 --> 00:25:00,839 the services and the would just be all timely and you would have all the 315 00:25:00,920 --> 00:25:06,119 right canons and the right the right different the different hymns that at the right 316 00:25:06,160 --> 00:25:10,640 time and everything, you know. And I'm being I love Orthodoxy, I'm 317 00:25:10,680 --> 00:25:14,880 Orthodox, I became Orthodox, and so I'm being playing devil's advocate here. 318 00:25:15,240 --> 00:25:19,920 But you know, there it seems like from the outside there is an argument 319 00:25:19,960 --> 00:25:26,440 to be made. That there's a danger of that fixity in the liturgical practice, 320 00:25:26,720 --> 00:25:30,039 which is that you know, take the book out, read the book. 321 00:25:30,240 --> 00:25:33,400 This is how it goes. To just follow the rubrics, you know, 322 00:25:33,480 --> 00:25:38,519 that's how it works. Uh, And that that we've lost the flexibility, 323 00:25:38,599 --> 00:25:42,079 you know that because we know the early liturgies had more improvisation in them 324 00:25:42,119 --> 00:25:47,519 in the sense that then we knew the sections, but that there was probably 325 00:25:47,599 --> 00:25:55,200 variation in different places in some aspects, although the liturgy was universal. I 326 00:25:55,200 --> 00:25:57,480 don't know if you've thought about that in terms of like the use of written 327 00:25:57,480 --> 00:26:04,359 prayer and all that. If it is an example of the danger of of 328 00:26:04,480 --> 00:26:11,759 fix it right and of following the rules and the rubrics. I didn't know 329 00:26:11,759 --> 00:26:14,680 I was going to go here, by the way, this is just just 330 00:26:15,000 --> 00:26:19,279 came to me. No. I've been thinking about this because it seems to 331 00:26:19,279 --> 00:26:26,039 me that to balance these two modes of awareness, this right hemisphere, left 332 00:26:26,039 --> 00:26:33,400 hemisphere, or the you know, this wholeism and a more analysis, it's 333 00:26:33,480 --> 00:26:41,400 helpful to have. You need some kind of a ritual that will help you. 334 00:26:42,880 --> 00:26:45,599 The purpose of ritual and of liturgy is, you know, to bring 335 00:26:45,680 --> 00:26:49,279 chaos into order. Right. It just it eats chaos, and it puts 336 00:26:49,279 --> 00:26:52,440 out order on the other side. And but not just any order, it 337 00:26:52,440 --> 00:27:00,480 produces cosmos. I think, you know, the liturgy is not enough. 338 00:27:00,920 --> 00:27:06,400 You have people formed by the liturgy. You need liturgy at fractal scale. 339 00:27:06,839 --> 00:27:11,680 You need people who are internally liturgical, who are deeply prayerful and deeply repentant, 340 00:27:12,440 --> 00:27:19,400 and whose consciousness has been transformed. So the point of what McGilchrist is 341 00:27:19,440 --> 00:27:26,599 worried is that the left hemisphere deals with a representation of reality, not reality 342 00:27:26,640 --> 00:27:32,400 itself. And because that is easier to work with and it is more efficient 343 00:27:32,440 --> 00:27:37,319 to work with it, it prefers it. Liturgy is supposed to be openness 344 00:27:37,400 --> 00:27:41,480 to the radical unknown, and it's supposed to be openness to a God who 345 00:27:41,559 --> 00:27:45,799 is so vast that you know, without a mediation of liturgy, the encounter 346 00:27:45,880 --> 00:27:55,319 would crush us. And so hopefully it's the opposite of that. There's really 347 00:27:55,319 --> 00:27:56,759 no way to ensure it. I mean, it's just the adventure of freedom. 348 00:27:57,039 --> 00:28:03,119 But I think what happens practically, you know, like this our saints, 349 00:28:03,160 --> 00:28:06,839 you know, in the movie santam Fillochios, the moment his spiritual life 350 00:28:06,880 --> 00:28:11,079 started to get intense, he went straight to Saint Niktarios, Saint Nactaris was 351 00:28:11,119 --> 00:28:15,960 seventy five eighty whatever he was, and I'm santam Philochius was nineteen eighteen years 352 00:28:15,960 --> 00:28:18,759 old, and he would, you know, travel from one island, you 353 00:28:18,799 --> 00:28:22,759 know, quite a ways to the other for that guidance. And what other 354 00:28:22,920 --> 00:28:26,680 saints that I'm Philochios know well, he was the spiritual father of Carlistos, 355 00:28:26,759 --> 00:28:30,960 where he was the person who tonsured Saint Gabrielea the asthetic of love. He 356 00:28:32,480 --> 00:28:37,400 you know, those saints, they run to each other because beauty, goodness, 357 00:28:37,400 --> 00:28:41,720 Truth is grammar, logic, rhetoric. Truth comes at this snatal level. 358 00:28:41,759 --> 00:28:47,680 It comes in some kind of a communion where constantly it seemed good to 359 00:28:47,720 --> 00:28:52,839 the Holy Spirit and to us. And hopefully liturgy is unleashing that sinidelity. 360 00:28:53,680 --> 00:29:00,400 But I'm not worried about liturgy for the same reason the big Book of qualis 361 00:29:00,440 --> 00:29:03,960 anonymous. Isn't worried about who Who's going to make sure an individual chapter of 362 00:29:04,000 --> 00:29:10,400 AA sticks to the rules. I know because I said the disease and death 363 00:29:10,440 --> 00:29:15,640 will take care of that. And if if people are faking liturgy, then 364 00:29:15,839 --> 00:29:22,079 you know their spiritual lives will wander away to nothingness and the organization will dissipate. 365 00:29:22,480 --> 00:29:23,680 Yeah. Yeah, that's a good point. That's a good point. 366 00:29:23,720 --> 00:29:29,559 And I think that the way you describe it as being held by the lives 367 00:29:29,599 --> 00:29:33,119 and the testimony and the the experience of the saints, you know, is 368 00:29:33,559 --> 00:29:40,920 is I think that's the right way because obviously you know the fact that I 369 00:29:40,960 --> 00:29:45,400 have to go to confession, you know, you know at some point if 370 00:29:45,440 --> 00:29:49,119 I want to commune, that's that is not That's not a program, right, 371 00:29:49,160 --> 00:29:52,559 It's not. I mean, you could probably do it as a program, 372 00:29:52,640 --> 00:29:55,960 you know, he wanted to, but it definitely not running a program. 373 00:29:56,039 --> 00:30:00,440 It is it is. It is always terrifying. It's always this kind 374 00:30:00,480 --> 00:30:03,640 of internal eye, this kind of this you know this you know, and 375 00:30:03,680 --> 00:30:07,000 so you know, and no matter how many times you do it, and 376 00:30:07,039 --> 00:30:11,160 a matter of times, any times you repeat the same stupid sins over and 377 00:30:11,200 --> 00:30:15,039 over, it's still, at least for me, is existentially uh, it 378 00:30:15,440 --> 00:30:19,400 fills you with that kind of existential tear that does not have the cannot, 379 00:30:19,599 --> 00:30:26,119 could not traffic and the kind of you know, limited certitude that I mean 380 00:30:26,160 --> 00:30:30,240 Gil Chris talks about in terms of the left brain and and and just of 381 00:30:30,240 --> 00:30:33,759 the of this kind of rational understanding. And so if that is what feeds 382 00:30:34,039 --> 00:30:38,680 us through the liturgy, you know, then the liturgy becomes you know, 383 00:30:38,880 --> 00:30:45,160 a dance playing out you know, those inner those inner struggles, and that 384 00:30:45,160 --> 00:30:48,319 that that inner compunction. I mean, the reason I didn't, you know, 385 00:30:48,400 --> 00:30:52,200 mention beauty at first, and I mentioned, you know, protozoa or 386 00:30:52,200 --> 00:30:59,680 something is because you know, to the to the to missus, blowfish, 387 00:31:00,119 --> 00:31:07,319 blowfish looks must look attractive. It's it isn't yes, beauty in symmetry, 388 00:31:07,440 --> 00:31:15,079 beauty that is something real, but spiritually we are asked to look beyond that 389 00:31:15,839 --> 00:31:18,279 or to you know, and we are. And there's other kinds of beauty 390 00:31:18,319 --> 00:31:23,519 that we encounter and that you know, we see in the poor, or 391 00:31:23,680 --> 00:31:30,200 in the in the person who is broken down by life, or the person 392 00:31:30,279 --> 00:31:33,839 you know. It's not just it's not there's something sacred about, you know, 393 00:31:33,880 --> 00:31:37,640 a beautiful face. There is, but you know, you start to 394 00:31:37,680 --> 00:31:45,680 see other dimensions of beauty that are equally or more important. And yeah, 395 00:31:45,720 --> 00:31:51,000 well I think I think that they're even even to argue it from a biological 396 00:31:51,720 --> 00:31:55,839 point of view, you know, because life is costly, uh, And 397 00:31:55,839 --> 00:31:59,880 that it seemed like it would make sense that at some point humans would be 398 00:32:00,119 --> 00:32:06,400 able to recognize the value of those that are willing to make that pay that 399 00:32:06,519 --> 00:32:10,640 price, you know, and so and so the idea of of of someone 400 00:32:10,839 --> 00:32:15,680 a warrior coming back, that's mame, that scarred, that someone you know, 401 00:32:15,720 --> 00:32:20,319 a woman who who gave herself into in childbirth and you know, is 402 00:32:20,359 --> 00:32:24,480 affected physically, and and she has the marks of that transformation. It seems 403 00:32:24,519 --> 00:32:28,880 like at at at the very basic level, of course, you know, 404 00:32:29,000 --> 00:32:31,000 the beauty like you said, you know, but but at a at a 405 00:32:31,079 --> 00:32:36,640 deeper level, and also over over time, it seems like it would be 406 00:32:36,720 --> 00:32:42,960 necessary that people learn to recognize the beauty of those sacrifices, which is why 407 00:32:43,400 --> 00:32:49,880 girls love scars too, Chicks digscars. It's sorry, sorry to take you 408 00:32:49,960 --> 00:32:52,480 off that, No, No, I was, I was thinking of something. 409 00:32:53,480 --> 00:33:02,759 Yeah, you know, yeah, I think that's this is true. 410 00:33:02,839 --> 00:33:07,920 And certainly the aesthetic of the church, which has is not sweet or merely 411 00:33:08,599 --> 00:33:14,640 externally perfect, but it has, you know, bears scars within it. 412 00:33:15,000 --> 00:33:19,079 That joyful sorrow or whatever the word is, bright sadness. That's that's the 413 00:33:19,119 --> 00:33:23,599 aesthetic of the church. And it's more like you know, blues or or 414 00:33:24,240 --> 00:33:30,319 or blue grass or jazz than it is like maybe then like is like classical 415 00:33:30,400 --> 00:33:35,039 music, although classical music, you know, depends on the composer balances joy 416 00:33:35,079 --> 00:33:38,920 and sorrow, you know, and it's great compositions as well. But Christopher 417 00:33:38,920 --> 00:33:44,960 Alexander talked about, you know that somehow that the building has to age to 418 00:33:45,000 --> 00:33:47,400 be truly beautiful. It has to kind of you know, it has to 419 00:33:47,480 --> 00:33:53,960 incorporate the passage of time, and that wear is makes it start to come 420 00:33:54,000 --> 00:34:00,079 alive and glow with with a certain fire. I think, I think that's 421 00:34:00,160 --> 00:34:05,759 right. I mean, our own experience of things that are supremely beautiful often, 422 00:34:06,440 --> 00:34:10,079 you know, this is actually one of the this has been my thinking 423 00:34:10,119 --> 00:34:14,239 about beauty, because you know, we tend to say the beauty is harmony, 424 00:34:14,280 --> 00:34:16,639 and beauty is symmetry and all these things, and sure, but then 425 00:34:17,000 --> 00:34:20,960 my experience of that was that it's just that's not true, Like it's not 426 00:34:21,280 --> 00:34:28,119 completely true. It's partly true, but it seems like my perception of it, 427 00:34:28,119 --> 00:34:31,159 it seems like what we find beautiful, even visually esthetically, is something 428 00:34:31,280 --> 00:34:36,639 like symmetry adapted to a particular It seems to be something like that. It 429 00:34:36,679 --> 00:34:42,440 seems to be something like balance that is well suited to a particular situation, 430 00:34:42,960 --> 00:34:49,480 and therefore it has to encompass some type of play with its environment, whether 431 00:34:49,679 --> 00:34:53,199 it is the dings and scratches of use, or whether it is a beautiful 432 00:34:53,480 --> 00:34:58,079 church that is laid in the slope, or whether it is you know, 433 00:34:58,280 --> 00:35:02,239 so there's this, there's always this se of of order, but that is 434 00:35:02,800 --> 00:35:08,360 that is embedded in particular that is more chaotic or more uh. Yeah, 435 00:35:08,440 --> 00:35:12,440 they can be a little that can be off even, you know, and 436 00:35:12,480 --> 00:35:15,800 that that that seems to be part of how we experience beauty. It's you 437 00:35:15,840 --> 00:35:20,440 know, it's because I mean, it's because in the canosis of the logos, 438 00:35:20,480 --> 00:35:23,480 you know, which brings about the creation of the world, the canosis 439 00:35:23,559 --> 00:35:32,400 is so complete that it's continually adapting to the creature or to the situation of 440 00:35:32,440 --> 00:35:37,000 the creature. And and this is fractal order, right, that that that 441 00:35:37,320 --> 00:35:45,039 infractals everything is exactly to its place. And and by the way, that's 442 00:35:45,079 --> 00:35:49,960 the Plato's cave answer too, because within the cave is another kind of you 443 00:35:50,000 --> 00:35:57,360 know, it's at every scale. And one of my former students, Georgia 444 00:35:57,400 --> 00:36:00,000 Williams, you know, she said, I think that to write an article 445 00:36:00,000 --> 00:36:06,599 about this somewhere. But she said, I think that what we call fractals 446 00:36:06,960 --> 00:36:12,880 is what Dionysius called the hierarchies. And once you realize that the celestial hierarchies 447 00:36:13,079 --> 00:36:20,599 and the ecclesiastical hierarchies are fractal shapes, then everything, you know, just 448 00:36:20,639 --> 00:36:23,320 a lot more things make sense. And first of all, hierarchy is not 449 00:36:23,360 --> 00:36:28,000 a dirty word anymore. It's just fractal structure. This is the way the 450 00:36:28,000 --> 00:36:31,920 world has to be because what's being given is so infinite or beyond infinite, 451 00:36:32,079 --> 00:36:37,559 and what's receiving it is so you know, we're so weak, and yeah, 452 00:36:37,599 --> 00:36:42,360 we need and that's another reason why you know, go film, Look 453 00:36:42,440 --> 00:36:45,559 not everything we can't I cannot be in liturgy twenty four to seven. So 454 00:36:45,719 --> 00:36:51,519 what about you know, what fills the space fractally other things you know the 455 00:36:51,599 --> 00:36:57,239 other times And yeah, that's I mean, I think that that's some of 456 00:36:57,320 --> 00:37:00,199 the things that I've been talking about in terms of, you know, use 457 00:37:00,280 --> 00:37:05,880 the family meal as an example of, you know, a type of liturgical 458 00:37:06,000 --> 00:37:10,840 act which is not strictly liturgical but participates in the same in the same structure, 459 00:37:12,480 --> 00:37:15,679 uh this, and and you could bring that all the way down to 460 00:37:15,119 --> 00:37:20,719 having coffee with a friend or a conversation or breathing. Right, it's like 461 00:37:21,079 --> 00:37:23,559 these these these structures of of of kind of moving in and out of the 462 00:37:23,639 --> 00:37:29,679 mystery. Uh is there at every at every level. And you know, 463 00:37:29,840 --> 00:37:34,199 the Jesus Prayer, for example, as like the basic liturgical structure for your 464 00:37:34,239 --> 00:37:38,280 thoughts, you know, kind of expands and and and and you know, 465 00:37:38,360 --> 00:37:44,199 and can be seen through all aspects of life and then into the grand cosmic 466 00:37:44,280 --> 00:37:49,239 liturgy of the angels. Uh. And I think your perception about how are 467 00:37:51,320 --> 00:37:53,599 it was fractal, obviously very akin to the things that I talk about. 468 00:37:53,599 --> 00:37:58,719 But the idea that that's how that hierarchy is actually just the way the world 469 00:37:58,760 --> 00:38:02,280 works, it's not, and it's not it actually is condescending. People always 470 00:38:02,280 --> 00:38:07,960 think of hierarchy as something which separates, But hierarchy is also something with unites 471 00:38:07,039 --> 00:38:14,159 because it adapts, it's glaring light to the particular situation. You know, 472 00:38:14,239 --> 00:38:21,000 and sometimes you know, we we don't understand that even in our lives. 473 00:38:21,079 --> 00:38:24,119 You don't understand that we're not ready for the vision of the divine logos. 474 00:38:24,159 --> 00:38:27,840 You know, it's like you don't want that, actually, and so you 475 00:38:28,000 --> 00:38:31,800 have to when you receive the little graces that you receive. This is this 476 00:38:31,920 --> 00:38:36,400 is God loving you, right, even if it's the smallest grace, it's 477 00:38:36,400 --> 00:38:40,119 God loving you because the reason why you receive the grace, the small graces, 478 00:38:40,280 --> 00:38:44,920 where you receive them, is because that is your capacity to receive them. 479 00:38:44,920 --> 00:38:49,559 They're the ones that can provide fruit. You know, if if the 480 00:38:49,719 --> 00:38:52,760 if the the fawced was opened and the grace just fell on you, you'd 481 00:38:52,559 --> 00:38:57,039 be, you'd burn, like you'd burn in hell. You would you would 482 00:38:57,079 --> 00:39:00,079 be, you would be, you would be overwhelmed. And so that's why 483 00:39:00,320 --> 00:39:06,840 I think hierarchy is so if we can help people understand how hierarchy what it 484 00:39:07,000 --> 00:39:10,159 is actually and that it's not just like a you know, authority and power 485 00:39:10,199 --> 00:39:15,039 coming down, but it is this condescension of of of authority down to the 486 00:39:15,119 --> 00:39:20,519 level that's appropriate. You know, Sat Siloon, you know, he had 487 00:39:20,559 --> 00:39:23,079 a vision of Christ when he was still a novice at Vesper's and he said 488 00:39:23,119 --> 00:39:28,119 afterwards, if that vision had lasted even one more second, I would have 489 00:39:28,199 --> 00:39:32,039 died. And so so that that is that we we and and I'm thinking 490 00:39:32,079 --> 00:39:37,800 of a recent elder in Russia who a man came to him said I'm dying 491 00:39:37,800 --> 00:39:40,719 of cancer. I've heard you. You know, you're a miracle worker. 492 00:39:40,760 --> 00:39:44,760 Heal me. And he said, do you believe in God? He said 493 00:39:44,800 --> 00:39:49,760 no. Then the priest said said, do you want to believe in God? 494 00:39:50,239 --> 00:39:53,400 He said no, And so the priests, without really you know, 495 00:39:53,679 --> 00:39:57,480 missing a beat, he said, well, do you want to live? 496 00:39:57,679 --> 00:40:00,800 Do you love life? And the man said yes, And so the priests 497 00:40:00,800 --> 00:40:02,679 healed them. And this is a true story from the nineties. And I 498 00:40:04,000 --> 00:40:08,239 think, look, I know in the film, you know, some things 499 00:40:08,280 --> 00:40:12,320 happen and are said that you know, are you know, like like that. 500 00:40:12,360 --> 00:40:16,000 People like to mock the thing about babies that won't nurse on fast days. 501 00:40:16,960 --> 00:40:22,280 But Mother Nactaria, my other great mentor you know, this was said 502 00:40:22,320 --> 00:40:27,480 about some some elders that you know, we knew, and she went to 503 00:40:27,519 --> 00:40:30,960 Cyprus and talked to like the women of the village and they didn't they just 504 00:40:30,960 --> 00:40:34,320 said he it was. It was the darnedest thing. They really feel out 505 00:40:34,360 --> 00:40:37,400 of it. But it still continues to happen that, you know, some 506 00:40:37,519 --> 00:40:42,800 kids are just born with that much grace. But it's not something I think 507 00:40:42,840 --> 00:40:47,199 about a lot, because that's not my reality. Yeah, well that's why 508 00:40:47,280 --> 00:40:50,519 I loved it when you put it in there, because I think like a 509 00:40:50,599 --> 00:40:54,159 more I think, like a more modern type of person, like a modern 510 00:40:54,199 --> 00:40:59,679 type of filmmaker, would have not put that in because it's so counter the 511 00:40:59,719 --> 00:41:04,760 way that our lives are, because our lives are so mundane to some extent. 512 00:41:04,840 --> 00:41:07,559 But like you said, you know, the medieval world was full of 513 00:41:07,599 --> 00:41:12,000 these stories, and to think that they're all made up is ridiculous. It's 514 00:41:12,039 --> 00:41:15,840 just the world was just you know, some people live in the in the 515 00:41:15,880 --> 00:41:20,280 world that is more like more of a dance than ours. And and in 516 00:41:20,320 --> 00:41:24,159 the moments where you actually experience that dance, you should understand that maybe that 517 00:41:24,239 --> 00:41:28,480 dance could be ten times more than the one that you're experiencing right now in 518 00:41:28,519 --> 00:41:35,119 this these little moments. It is a thing, you know. But but 519 00:41:35,199 --> 00:41:37,280 I think that the danger is, you know, to to you know, 520 00:41:37,360 --> 00:41:40,400 like chase those things for themselves. Yeah. Yeah, I think it's you 521 00:41:40,480 --> 00:41:45,119 know, the first the first commandment Christ gave us, you know, in 522 00:41:45,159 --> 00:41:50,280 his incarnate ministry was repent and and sam Patio said, just pray for a 523 00:41:50,320 --> 00:41:52,960 spirit of repentance. Don't ask for anything else, because you won't be able 524 00:41:53,000 --> 00:41:58,079 to handle it when it comes and and that's the fact. And if we 525 00:41:58,119 --> 00:42:01,400 can just pray for a spirit of repentance and then miracles can come and go. 526 00:42:01,639 --> 00:42:05,440 Or you know, people can tell stories and sometimes you know, people 527 00:42:05,440 --> 00:42:07,079 tell stories and they do seem kind of made up, and you know, 528 00:42:07,159 --> 00:42:10,719 you let that go, and it's it's not it's not a huge thing. 529 00:42:10,840 --> 00:42:15,719 That The point is, you know, to have your own, hopefully you 530 00:42:15,719 --> 00:42:22,119 know, dynamically, a live relationship with Christ and to let that, you 531 00:42:22,159 --> 00:42:29,039 know, hold these other things along, you know. And so so the 532 00:42:29,039 --> 00:42:32,880 biggest, the biggest affront, at least on its face to beauty is the 533 00:42:32,920 --> 00:42:39,519 cross, you know, because the cross is it is the most horrible thing. 534 00:42:39,599 --> 00:42:44,400 You know, it's presented that way in scripture. It's it's presented that 535 00:42:44,440 --> 00:42:47,440 way, and uh, you know, it's an object of torture, and 536 00:42:47,880 --> 00:42:57,239 Christ is tortured. But nonetheless we have the intuition and we hear it in 537 00:42:57,280 --> 00:43:00,639 the church and we that that in fact, the cross is beautiful. And 538 00:43:00,719 --> 00:43:04,760 so how do you square that, like, how do you see that coming 539 00:43:04,800 --> 00:43:07,639 together? Oh? I don't know. I mean, I certainly as the 540 00:43:07,760 --> 00:43:13,320 ways as I don't know. I certainly find my cross is hard to bear. 541 00:43:13,679 --> 00:43:22,039 But I find yours. Very beautiful I find, you know, meeting 542 00:43:22,119 --> 00:43:25,840 someone who's willing to to risk their lives for me. You know, I 543 00:43:25,880 --> 00:43:30,960 was in a fiery car crash on in twenty seventeen, and thank god the 544 00:43:30,960 --> 00:43:35,000 car didn't tip, but you know, it was really on fire, and 545 00:43:35,840 --> 00:43:38,519 you know, as I emerged out of the fire, there just happened to 546 00:43:38,519 --> 00:43:45,199 be a fireman getting off duty. And you know when I when I thank 547 00:43:45,239 --> 00:43:47,400 God that the car didn't flip, you know, because then that might have 548 00:43:47,480 --> 00:43:52,159 just either been the end of me or I would be even uglier than I 549 00:43:52,199 --> 00:43:54,840 am. No, just kidding, I would have you know, really been 550 00:43:54,880 --> 00:43:59,320 you know, had all kinds of things going on, would be hard row 551 00:43:59,400 --> 00:44:05,239 to hoe. And my faith is not infinite. But my main reason I'm 552 00:44:05,280 --> 00:44:09,000 happy is that that poor guy, he was just coming home from work on 553 00:44:09,039 --> 00:44:13,639 a Sunday morning, and would he have had to go into the flames for 554 00:44:13,679 --> 00:44:15,679 me, that would be awful, I mean, but had he done it, 555 00:44:16,440 --> 00:44:22,159 yeah, it's just beautiful that God put in there and that you know 556 00:44:22,440 --> 00:44:30,639 that he was ready, seems ready so certainly, and when we encounter in 557 00:44:30,679 --> 00:44:36,360 a relationship that the other person is unwilling or unable or psychologically unready to bear 558 00:44:36,440 --> 00:44:39,159 even the smallest cross for us. That's really sad, you know, that's 559 00:44:39,199 --> 00:44:45,039 really that's much harder, you know. Then and then then we realize, 560 00:44:45,119 --> 00:44:49,079 well, we've got to up our game and we've got to carry a few 561 00:44:49,079 --> 00:44:53,559 more crosses for the life of the world and stop trying to be so ready 562 00:44:54,199 --> 00:44:59,679 and focus on being beautiful or on being good and then letting the beauty come 563 00:44:59,679 --> 00:45:06,880 out of that. Mm hmm, yeah, because you know, it was 564 00:45:06,920 --> 00:45:08,800 interesting. You know, I'd never had that experience before, but I was 565 00:45:08,800 --> 00:45:14,760 on an ethos in. I mean, you actually helped organize my first trip 566 00:45:14,760 --> 00:45:15,960 there by the way, thank you. I'll say that in public that was 567 00:45:16,000 --> 00:45:21,159 wonderful. But I went back again, as you know, with Jordan Peterson, 568 00:45:22,880 --> 00:45:25,639 you know, and we met the abbot of the of Xenophon monitor we 569 00:45:25,639 --> 00:45:32,119 were and to me that was really something of an experience of the deep beauty 570 00:45:32,239 --> 00:45:37,400 because he was a broken old man, you know, I mean, his 571 00:45:37,519 --> 00:45:40,119 back was out, and you know, he had all the characteristics of a 572 00:45:40,239 --> 00:45:45,679 very elderly person who's had a very full life. But you know, it 573 00:45:45,760 --> 00:45:51,480 was impossible to stop looking at him like it was some there's something more than 574 00:45:51,760 --> 00:45:58,719 just the just the the usual advertisement, you know, Hollywood aspects of what 575 00:45:58,800 --> 00:46:02,440 we find to be beautiful, and it was a visual thing like it it 576 00:46:02,519 --> 00:46:06,119 part of it was visual, that's visual. Part of it was visual is 577 00:46:06,119 --> 00:46:08,679 that I really he was hypnotizing like there was there was It was difficult to 578 00:46:08,679 --> 00:46:14,639 stop looking at his face because there was so much simple joy and you know, 579 00:46:14,719 --> 00:46:17,880 and and the kind of presence that was exuding from it. Uh. 580 00:46:17,920 --> 00:46:23,320 And so I think I did have like a little bit of a of a 581 00:46:23,440 --> 00:46:29,519 vision of how the Cross can be beautiful. You know, although we know 582 00:46:29,559 --> 00:46:31,880 when we make icons of the Cross, we were careful, you know, 583 00:46:31,960 --> 00:46:37,599 we tried to make it in a way that won't attract to the to the 584 00:46:37,599 --> 00:46:39,199 the kind of torture aspect of the of the cross. And I think it's 585 00:46:39,199 --> 00:46:43,519 good that we do that, but we also know that that's what it was. 586 00:46:43,599 --> 00:46:46,400 I mean, we know that Christ on the Cross visually did not look 587 00:46:46,559 --> 00:46:52,199 the way that we represent him in a in an icon. Uh. You 588 00:46:52,199 --> 00:46:55,519 know, we're trying to represent the inner aspect that that kind of transform aspect, 589 00:46:55,519 --> 00:47:00,559 but the outer aspect would have been horrible. But I that was a 590 00:47:00,639 --> 00:47:06,599 moment where I felt like I was able to see a surprising you know, 591 00:47:06,679 --> 00:47:10,039 in someone who is you know, old and close to death and has had 592 00:47:10,079 --> 00:47:15,519 this full life of sacrifice, that there was something shining. So anyways, 593 00:47:15,719 --> 00:47:17,639 I'm sure other people have had experiences like that, but to me that was 594 00:47:17,800 --> 00:47:23,119 helpful to help me understand what beauty is, you know, in in the 595 00:47:23,119 --> 00:47:28,760 deepest way. Well somehow it's a society. And we had our kind of 596 00:47:28,760 --> 00:47:31,679 Disneyland phase of beauty, and you know, we took that into our personal 597 00:47:31,679 --> 00:47:37,039 lives somehow and expect you know, even our spouse or something to be like 598 00:47:37,039 --> 00:47:45,199 that. But the the I mean, I think, you know McGilchrist's point 599 00:47:45,440 --> 00:47:50,159 is that you know, we're in a societal crisis or a civilizational crisis, 600 00:47:52,400 --> 00:47:55,360 you know, and somehow. The thing is, I don't think that he 601 00:47:55,440 --> 00:48:00,880 can really All he can really do is point very dimly, you know, 602 00:48:00,920 --> 00:48:07,199 to religion or to even philosophy something that to say that the brain, you 603 00:48:07,199 --> 00:48:13,360 know, his functions functions in this way, doesn't really give you a program. 604 00:48:14,519 --> 00:48:17,760 It just tells you that you might want to pay attention to people who 605 00:48:17,800 --> 00:48:23,920 have the program. And I don't know, yeah, there there is I 606 00:48:23,920 --> 00:48:28,719 mean, there is a a you know, I think that his Reacing book, 607 00:48:28,760 --> 00:48:30,480 like I said, I haven't read it. I think his reacent book 608 00:48:30,519 --> 00:48:31,440 is different, you know, in the set, I think that he is 609 00:48:31,960 --> 00:48:37,760 trying to to give more of a of a of a vision of how to 610 00:48:38,079 --> 00:48:42,480 live, because it's true that in the mass and is emissary. It's it's 611 00:48:42,519 --> 00:48:45,400 like a it's a critique and saying to someone, you know, use your 612 00:48:45,480 --> 00:48:51,719 right brain more. It doesn't mean anything. Right doesn't mean anything existentially. 613 00:48:51,800 --> 00:48:55,400 It's not a it's not a phenomenological proposition. It's a it's a prop it's 614 00:48:55,400 --> 00:49:00,039 an analytical proposition. It's a left brain way of talking talking about the problem. 615 00:49:00,079 --> 00:49:05,360 When you say this it's a brain problem, like it's it's it's an 616 00:49:05,440 --> 00:49:08,920 experienced problem, it's an engagement problem. It's it's not actually a problem with 617 00:49:08,960 --> 00:49:12,840 the brain at the outset. And so I think in some ways he's a 618 00:49:12,840 --> 00:49:19,039 bridge because he's actually using left brain way of talking about the world in order 619 00:49:19,119 --> 00:49:23,719 to ex to show the problem, you know, and it helps people kind 620 00:49:23,719 --> 00:49:28,800 of understand what it is. But honestly, like the brain has very little 621 00:49:28,840 --> 00:49:30,559 to do with your experience, Like you do not experience your brain and your 622 00:49:30,599 --> 00:49:36,960 brain, you know you you don't. Your brain is an abstraction in your 623 00:49:37,039 --> 00:49:39,800 life. It's not something that you you don't experience things through your brain. 624 00:49:39,880 --> 00:49:43,480 You don't, you know, I'm not saying, I mean, careful people 625 00:49:43,559 --> 00:49:45,920 understand what I'm saying. I'm not saying the brain doesn't do what we say 626 00:49:45,960 --> 00:49:50,159 it does. I'm saying that it's it's it's like the motor of your car, 627 00:49:50,239 --> 00:49:52,639 right. You know, you drive the car, and you have a 628 00:49:52,679 --> 00:49:54,960 steering wheel and you have the pedals. That's your experience of the car, 629 00:49:55,159 --> 00:50:02,880 like you don't experience what happening inside the motor is second, very secondary to 630 00:50:02,920 --> 00:50:07,199 your experience of driving. And that's that's also the I think one of the 631 00:50:07,239 --> 00:50:10,559 issues with not the issues, but I think that that's in some ways where 632 00:50:10,639 --> 00:50:15,079 McGill, chriss and the Master's Emissary kind of leaves us off with more this 633 00:50:15,239 --> 00:50:19,800 kind of technical way of talking about it. But I never like, I 634 00:50:19,840 --> 00:50:22,360 wouldn't use that, I wouldn't say right brain, left brain thinking, because 635 00:50:22,440 --> 00:50:27,679 yeah, I think Chapter twenty two of Death and Life is better in the 636 00:50:27,719 --> 00:50:30,280 sense that it just tells you that we have three modes of science, and 637 00:50:30,400 --> 00:50:34,360 we prefer the first two because they give us, you know, the illusion 638 00:50:34,440 --> 00:50:37,559 of control and the illusion that the universe is a dead thing, and the 639 00:50:37,599 --> 00:50:42,800 other one is just a lot harder. But the fact is, see, 640 00:50:42,800 --> 00:50:45,880 if I were a corporation, how would I just absorb all this and try 641 00:50:45,920 --> 00:50:49,440 to stay unrepentant. I would just say, well, let's just get out 642 00:50:49,519 --> 00:50:52,119 there and you know, fund some great liberal arts programs and then just hire 643 00:50:52,159 --> 00:50:55,400 their graduates and we'll have them and the engineers, you know, balancing each 644 00:50:55,400 --> 00:51:00,000 other like you would. You could just try to operation like that, like 645 00:51:00,039 --> 00:51:06,159 we'll get your artists involved or just get the problem is that life is a 646 00:51:06,239 --> 00:51:09,760 much harder form of art. And yeah, the liberal arts are indispensable, 647 00:51:10,320 --> 00:51:15,800 but then you've got to have the way of the heart. You've got to 648 00:51:15,039 --> 00:51:20,039 actually pursue the sacred and the holy, and you've got to do it well. 649 00:51:20,519 --> 00:51:24,199 And you know, it's all that's it's it's education too. It's about 650 00:51:24,199 --> 00:51:28,480 people. That's the you're gonna have to do. You can't make it into 651 00:51:28,519 --> 00:51:31,079 a system. It really is the difference between a good teacher and a bad 652 00:51:31,119 --> 00:51:35,400 teacher is the world, you know. And you know, we just send 653 00:51:35,400 --> 00:51:37,199 our kids to high school and then we just don't know who their teachers are, 654 00:51:37,599 --> 00:51:42,559 you know, and we just but the reality is that all the great 655 00:51:42,599 --> 00:51:46,800 colleges were built on people. They're not built just on abstract knowledge. And 656 00:51:47,119 --> 00:51:51,000 you know, I was, I don't know if you know about Ralston College. 657 00:51:51,320 --> 00:51:53,159 I just came back from there. I did as an event there. 658 00:51:53,199 --> 00:51:59,239 Migil Chris also, Yeah, and they're they're building it, I think in 659 00:51:59,280 --> 00:52:01,199 the right way. The building it based on. You know, it's like 660 00:52:01,679 --> 00:52:07,079 connections and people and understanding that you know, a valuable person is more than 661 00:52:07,119 --> 00:52:12,079 a program that we need the program, but to have the right person in 662 00:52:12,119 --> 00:52:15,800 the right place, you know, that has the right intentions. Uh, 663 00:52:15,199 --> 00:52:20,760 connecting with the students is more valuable. And anyway it's been, it's pretty 664 00:52:20,800 --> 00:52:23,119 it's pretty astounding what they're able to to do. It gives you hope, 665 00:52:23,199 --> 00:52:28,039 you know, for for for liberal arts. For sure, you'd love to 666 00:52:28,079 --> 00:52:30,559 learn more about it. Of course, of course, I think Hellenic College 667 00:52:30,599 --> 00:52:34,400 has the edge right now of any liberal arts school in the nation, just 668 00:52:34,440 --> 00:52:42,480 because the you know, the reason I became friends with Jane Jacobs is because 669 00:52:42,519 --> 00:52:49,440 I noticed that she was describing cities as if they were really liturgies. And 670 00:52:49,440 --> 00:52:52,440 and I think when you when you study living, you know, real real 671 00:52:52,920 --> 00:52:57,960 organic life, it always has this you know that that breeding that you mentioned, 672 00:52:58,000 --> 00:53:05,360 that that sign of liturgical living things are constituted liturgically, and it's and 673 00:53:05,599 --> 00:53:08,719 to have to have that be part of your college experience. Now, if 674 00:53:08,760 --> 00:53:13,719 some young person is listening to this and you know they can't come here necessarily, 675 00:53:13,719 --> 00:53:16,239 we don't have an engineering program, but if you can put pilgrimage into 676 00:53:16,280 --> 00:53:21,760 your life and get good at liturgy and understand what is the way of knowing 677 00:53:22,079 --> 00:53:27,400 that's imparted. Of course we have this, we have them both here and 678 00:53:27,440 --> 00:53:31,320 it's still a struggle. That's just life. I mean you just every day 679 00:53:31,440 --> 00:53:36,599 is a struggle. And but yeah, in some sense we're the ideal college 680 00:53:36,639 --> 00:53:43,400 at the moment, although thankfully not no one seems to realize that. Well 681 00:53:44,119 --> 00:53:47,119 we handle thirty freshmen a year, but or whatever. Well I can't wait 682 00:53:47,159 --> 00:53:52,400 because for people who don't know, I am going to be at Helenic College 683 00:53:53,119 --> 00:53:59,480 in a few weeks on is it April seventeenth? It's seventeen. That's a 684 00:53:59,519 --> 00:54:01,079 Thursday, right, Thursday night? Is that is that when the event is? 685 00:54:01,119 --> 00:54:04,599 Because I have three days, but it's it's around there. It's like, 686 00:54:04,880 --> 00:54:07,320 but you're coming on Wednesday and we're hanging out on Thursday, and it's 687 00:54:07,360 --> 00:54:10,840 Thursday night. I think it's Thursday night, and there's and tickets are available 688 00:54:10,880 --> 00:54:15,679 on event bright all right, so an event Bright I will be selling out 689 00:54:15,760 --> 00:54:19,199 fast now the eighteenth, so get your ticket. I can't wait to see 690 00:54:19,239 --> 00:54:22,760 the college because you know, I've never been there, and so I can't 691 00:54:22,800 --> 00:54:27,480 I you know, and and I am definitely interested in the future of education 692 00:54:27,679 --> 00:54:31,079 and also especially liberal arts education. So it's it's wonderful to see an Orthodox 693 00:54:32,199 --> 00:54:37,039 based community trying to do liberal arts in the right way. I think it's 694 00:54:37,079 --> 00:54:43,119 great. You know, liturgy has to have a component of long, being 695 00:54:43,159 --> 00:54:46,320 long and boring. If it's if it's if everything is as an you know, 696 00:54:46,400 --> 00:54:51,360 as a purpose function, and you remain mired in the left brain and 697 00:54:51,760 --> 00:54:55,440 all you're really doing with your Christian faith is doubling down on, you know, 698 00:54:55,639 --> 00:55:00,719 the mistake of the civilization, which is to not be beautyful, and 699 00:55:00,760 --> 00:55:06,000 it's to be so entranced by, you know, the power of utility that 700 00:55:06,320 --> 00:55:09,000 you know, you just are. You're just a danger to yourself and others. 701 00:55:10,119 --> 00:55:13,920 I love I love you saying that, you know, your liturgical life 702 00:55:13,960 --> 00:55:19,920 has to be long and boring. It has to weigh out yourself and your 703 00:55:19,960 --> 00:55:23,599 own flighty mind and come to something deeper. Yeah, because I mean, 704 00:55:23,880 --> 00:55:29,559 anybody who's been through a long liturgical service will notice that at some point your 705 00:55:29,599 --> 00:55:31,599 thoughts just go crazy, Like your thoughts just kind of go all over the 706 00:55:31,599 --> 00:55:35,440 place, And at first you don't notice it, but after you've been through 707 00:55:35,440 --> 00:55:37,599 several services, you're like, wait a minute, I'm not here anymore. 708 00:55:38,000 --> 00:55:40,679 Like I'm just not even here. I'm somewhere else. I'm thinking about, 709 00:55:40,760 --> 00:55:45,360 especially your creative person like you, like me, who has plenty of things 710 00:55:45,400 --> 00:55:47,039 to think about, plenty of stories to write, plenty of you know. 711 00:55:47,119 --> 00:55:51,400 So it's so easy to write stories when you're during liturgy, right, It's 712 00:55:51,400 --> 00:55:54,039 like, oh yeah, but it's it's a good exercise because it makes you 713 00:55:54,119 --> 00:55:58,000 realize to what extent, you know, you're a slave of your thoughts, 714 00:55:58,079 --> 00:56:01,679 and you of these you know, of these that kind of drop in. 715 00:56:02,039 --> 00:56:07,400 So yeah, it's good to do that. I feel bad for mentioning Hellenic 716 00:56:07,440 --> 00:56:09,400 And I'm not trying to hijack you know, the podcast, I mean, 717 00:56:09,840 --> 00:56:15,280 but because the larger issue, though, you know, is, I mean, 718 00:56:15,360 --> 00:56:17,599 I've been reading a lot of Wendell Berry this lent. I'm trying to 719 00:56:17,800 --> 00:56:22,719 make that part of lent because you know, he's calling for some kind of 720 00:56:22,760 --> 00:56:29,000 social repentance, and you can see how it really sinks with McGilchrist, and 721 00:56:30,599 --> 00:56:37,480 there is repentance should lead to kind of social renewal. And and I think 722 00:56:37,760 --> 00:56:44,800 we see very clearly now that our mental inability to comprehend beauty or its important 723 00:56:44,840 --> 00:56:49,159 sort of give it the respect it's it's due, is something that is a 724 00:56:49,199 --> 00:56:52,119 mental state that needs to be repented of. And that's what repentance is, 725 00:56:52,159 --> 00:56:58,599 you know, it's changed to renew and transform the mind. I don't know, 726 00:56:58,639 --> 00:57:00,039 I mean, we didn't get into something else, maybe for another time, 727 00:57:00,079 --> 00:57:05,360 but it's it does seem like, you know, our civilization is is 728 00:57:05,400 --> 00:57:09,599 a struggle between the nominalists and the realists. The only solution is is the 729 00:57:09,639 --> 00:57:13,960 symbolic and that's you know, what you're trying to lead us back to. 730 00:57:14,679 --> 00:57:16,199 So I mean, I think the things that I'm saying are kind of just 731 00:57:16,360 --> 00:57:21,599 very small pieces of that. What your work is the main work that somehow 732 00:57:22,239 --> 00:57:27,360 to recover the symbolic vision. That's where the nominal and the real are reconciled. 733 00:57:27,960 --> 00:57:30,840 Yeah, yeah, but no, I think I think that we're both 734 00:57:30,840 --> 00:57:35,039 of us are very much in parallel, which is why people when they read 735 00:57:35,079 --> 00:57:38,559 your book, they feel like they're that we're cousins in thinking, you know, 736 00:57:38,679 --> 00:57:42,519 like that, that that you're completing some of the things that I'm saying, 737 00:57:42,559 --> 00:57:44,639 and I'm coming close to the things you're saying, and so I think 738 00:57:44,679 --> 00:57:47,360 it's a wonderful. Oh, what's wonderful. Yeah, sorry, you're wonderful. 739 00:57:47,400 --> 00:57:50,000 To know you're on my team, is what I was going to say, 740 00:57:50,079 --> 00:57:51,880 or that I'm on your team, that we're on the same team. 741 00:57:51,960 --> 00:57:53,679 Let's say it that way. You were saying something I'd never heard, I'd 742 00:57:53,719 --> 00:57:59,920 never heard before, which which is the best thing ever. You said that 743 00:58:00,320 --> 00:58:05,320 the word for the devil, right is the the avola to separate is the 744 00:58:05,360 --> 00:58:12,119 exact opposite of simvalo symbol symbol, and that's the that's the best thing ever. 745 00:58:12,800 --> 00:58:15,039 That really just puts it all right, there, doesn't it. But 746 00:58:15,039 --> 00:58:19,960 but this war between nominalists and realists, and of course the Anglo American response 747 00:58:20,400 --> 00:58:24,079 is to sit on the sidelines and through this faint, faint memory of their 748 00:58:24,119 --> 00:58:30,400 Byzantine, you know, inheritance and the Celts too, to be skeptics of 749 00:58:30,559 --> 00:58:35,519 both, you know. But but that Anglo American skepticism is kind of wearing 750 00:58:35,559 --> 00:58:38,280 out. People want the thing itself, No, I think, I think 751 00:58:38,320 --> 00:58:43,800 so. But you know, the thing is that nominalism is is going to 752 00:58:43,960 --> 00:58:46,119 is going to end with a lot of is ending with blood. Like it's 753 00:58:46,480 --> 00:58:51,199 the Enlightenment thinking, and that all of this is crashing, it's all, 754 00:58:51,280 --> 00:58:54,960 it's all falling apart. It's happening rather fast. COVID was was like an 755 00:58:55,039 --> 00:59:01,679 accelerant of all of the the aspects of you know that's a religious impulse and 756 00:59:01,679 --> 00:59:06,559 and uh all and you know, all of that kind of crashing back in. 757 00:59:06,679 --> 00:59:09,320 So, you know, I think that we it's time to deal with 758 00:59:09,360 --> 00:59:13,519 this, you know, it really is time to be able to formulate and 759 00:59:13,559 --> 00:59:19,519 to participate in meaning in ways that are fractal instead of you know, swaying 760 00:59:19,880 --> 00:59:24,599 crazily between you know, chaos and tyranny, which is the tendency that we've 761 00:59:24,840 --> 00:59:28,639 that we've embarked on, you know, I think since the beginning of the 762 00:59:28,719 --> 00:59:32,880 Enlightenment. And so I think that being helping people to formulate, but not 763 00:59:32,880 --> 00:59:39,079 not just formulate theoretically, but also engage in practice this fractal relationship between unity 764 00:59:39,079 --> 00:59:43,519 and multiplicity at all the different levels. Uh, the music, right, 765 00:59:43,559 --> 00:59:49,199 the music of the spheres really that that's that's and and the thing, the 766 00:59:49,239 --> 00:59:52,880 great thing about it is that when people understand it and when people kind of 767 00:59:52,920 --> 00:59:58,519 see it, it rings so true that at once you once you've seen down 768 00:59:58,559 --> 01:00:02,679 that, once you've seen down that door, there's no turning back. It 769 01:00:02,760 --> 01:00:07,360 might be difficult to do it and integrate it, it's difficult to live it 770 01:00:07,400 --> 01:00:14,880 completely, but once you've seen this hierarchy of practical relationships, you can't go 771 01:00:14,960 --> 01:00:16,639 back to the to the to the old way. I don't think so and 772 01:00:16,679 --> 01:00:22,719 so so at least I think we have reality on our side, is what 773 01:00:22,800 --> 01:00:28,000 I mean. You know, like liturgy, that the idea that the reality 774 01:00:28,039 --> 01:00:32,079 is liturgy is just true. And so you know, as the more people 775 01:00:32,119 --> 01:00:38,480 can perceive it and engage with it, it will win in the end, 776 01:00:38,639 --> 01:00:43,880 no matter how crazy it becomes. You know, truth will will will rise. 777 01:00:44,039 --> 01:00:47,920 There's no there's no other way, you know, because if you it's 778 01:00:47,960 --> 01:00:52,519 like if things decompose, and then the seed, the fractal seed that came 779 01:00:52,519 --> 01:00:55,519 from the tree that's planted in that decomposed, that's the one that's going to 780 01:00:55,599 --> 01:01:00,360 grow. So I know it from because that's how it works, and that's 781 01:01:00,360 --> 01:01:02,239 actually how it works in the world, and that's how it works at all 782 01:01:02,280 --> 01:01:07,039 the scales, you know, and the stories tell us about the remnants that 783 01:01:07,079 --> 01:01:10,880 are taken out and that are planted and grow again. And so I don't 784 01:01:10,920 --> 01:01:17,760 see I don't see another another way. You know. In his letters to 785 01:01:17,800 --> 01:01:22,599 the Soviet leaders, sol Janitsen, you know, is calling for a societal 786 01:01:22,760 --> 01:01:28,119 social repentance for the for Russia because you know, he says it's time to 787 01:01:28,519 --> 01:01:34,480 let the republics go and find their own way. One of his regrets is 788 01:01:34,519 --> 01:01:37,559 that all the best minds were studying military electronics. You know, all the 789 01:01:37,639 --> 01:01:42,159 young people were drawn to that, and they were neglecting their humanities. I 790 01:01:42,239 --> 01:01:46,079 mean, it's such a sacred thing if a person can give themselves to the 791 01:01:46,079 --> 01:01:53,039 study of literature and the classics, or literature and theology, literature and art, 792 01:01:53,599 --> 01:02:00,400 you know so much the great you know, when we talk about education, 793 01:02:00,480 --> 01:02:04,039 as you know, the great conversation, right this this beauty, goodness, 794 01:02:04,079 --> 01:02:07,960 truth or grammar, logic, rhetoric, the rhetoric stage. It's blood 795 01:02:07,960 --> 01:02:13,760 work, but it's there's a cynidelity. You've got to enter the Communion of 796 01:02:13,800 --> 01:02:19,079 Saints you've got to engage with the other great writers and the great you know 797 01:02:19,440 --> 01:02:27,320 everything or whatever you're doing, it's they are summoning you and do their company. 798 01:02:27,559 --> 01:02:30,760 They I no longer call you disciples, I call you friends. They 799 01:02:30,760 --> 01:02:37,079 are summoning you to that friendship. And it's just that life is so busy 800 01:02:37,119 --> 01:02:39,719 and people don't have time to read. They don't feel at least with film 801 01:02:39,760 --> 01:02:45,840 they're getting something. Yeah, but you know, audiobooks there's a solution. 802 01:02:45,239 --> 01:02:49,719 Everyone likes the audiobooks. Yeah, that's the way to go. There's something 803 01:02:49,719 --> 01:02:52,519 that are hard to read with audiobooks. But for sure, audiobooks have been 804 01:02:52,559 --> 01:02:54,800 a life saver for me, especially as a dad with three kids, working 805 01:02:54,800 --> 01:02:59,159 full time. You know, it's like and then doing all this other stuff, 806 01:02:59,320 --> 01:03:01,320 the audiobook is wonderful. You know, then you want to drive, 807 01:03:01,360 --> 01:03:05,719 like you actually want to drive your kids places because you get to listen to 808 01:03:05,719 --> 01:03:09,119 the audiobook. Uh So, so that's been that's been wonderful. And it's 809 01:03:09,119 --> 01:03:14,480 weird. It's a it's weird technological version of the you know, the monks 810 01:03:14,519 --> 01:03:19,679 reading in the during dinner at the in the monastery. It's it's not completely 811 01:03:19,719 --> 01:03:22,880 the same. It lack I mean obviously it's a it's a superficial version of 812 01:03:22,880 --> 01:03:28,360 that. But I think that we're attuned to listening to things being told told 813 01:03:28,360 --> 01:03:30,239 to us since we're children, you know, being read to, and so 814 01:03:30,320 --> 01:03:35,920 I think there's something intuitively right about the audiobook that you can easily, you 815 01:03:35,960 --> 01:03:38,480 know, kind of pay attention while you're doing other things and let it seep 816 01:03:38,519 --> 01:03:44,400 into you. So so so more people need to More young men in the 817 01:03:44,480 --> 01:03:49,400 Orthodox tradition need to come to the priesthood because if the if, if that's 818 01:03:49,480 --> 01:03:53,320 the symbolic act is you know, the defeat of the disintegrative act, then 819 01:03:53,400 --> 01:03:59,599 that's that's a different way to present this calling, this ministry because someone has 820 01:03:59,639 --> 01:04:04,400 to stand like Moses, you know, with their arms up. So maybe 821 01:04:04,440 --> 01:04:09,800 that is part of the answer, just that increasing but all of us participate 822 01:04:09,800 --> 01:04:15,360 in that priesthood of the church, and that's I mean the problem is us, 823 01:04:15,480 --> 01:04:18,800 right like, And that's that's the great thing you know about I think 824 01:04:18,840 --> 01:04:23,639 all Christian faith, but Orthodoxy in particular. I mean what I know, 825 01:04:23,760 --> 01:04:28,320 well, you know you are encouraged to realize that you know, you're the 826 01:04:28,360 --> 01:04:33,679 issue. The problem, The problem is you. I think this is a 827 01:04:33,880 --> 01:04:39,880 it's a great way to uh to to to end our conversation, the problem 828 01:04:39,960 --> 01:04:44,559 is you, but the community of the Saints are calling you, and not 829 01:04:44,719 --> 01:04:47,039 just the Saints, but the communion of all those that came before it, 830 01:04:47,119 --> 01:04:50,679 the great thinkers, the great writers, those that have you know, showed 831 01:04:50,760 --> 01:04:56,599 us what is what is beautiful, good and true. They are calling us 832 01:04:56,639 --> 01:05:00,960 in to participate. So can I can I mention it dream I had recently 833 01:05:00,960 --> 01:05:04,719 because it's so fun. I was meeting Lebron James for the first time and 834 01:05:04,760 --> 01:05:08,920 it was such a spiritual dream. I was in tears. It was it 835 01:05:08,960 --> 01:05:14,119 was like this, and I was I just said, you've You've given so 836 01:05:14,280 --> 01:05:17,480 much effort to excellence, You've worked so hard to be excellent on what you 837 01:05:17,519 --> 01:05:21,599 do, and it just brought me. I don't even I'm not really even 838 01:05:21,639 --> 01:05:26,800 a basketball fan, but I just there's so many people out there giving their 839 01:05:26,840 --> 01:05:32,639 all for for beauty in different ways. Yeah, you know, come in, 840 01:05:32,880 --> 01:05:36,480 come into the dance, everybody. So Timothy, thank you for everything. 841 01:05:38,280 --> 01:05:44,079 I can't wait to see you again at Holy Cross and at Hellenic College 842 01:05:44,199 --> 01:05:45,760 in a few weeks. Yes, now, if we show all the best. 843 01:05:45,880 --> 01:05:51,760 Luck also with with the the movie and the upcoming movie on on Holy 844 01:05:51,800 --> 01:05:55,239 Week. You know I can't wait to see that as well, So thanks 845 01:05:55,320 --> 01:06:00,440 Timothy. If you enjoyed these videos and podcasts, please go to this Symbolic 846 01:06:00,440 --> 01:06:03,199 world dot com website and see how you can support what we're doing. There 847 01:06:03,199 --> 01:06:08,280 are multiple subscriber tiers with perks. There are apparel and books to purchase, 848 01:06:08,559 --> 01:06:11,960 so go to the Symbolic world dot com and thank you for your support