1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:03,279 And it hits me, Oh my gosh, this is at triangle. You 2 00:00:03,319 --> 00:00:06,639 know, there's explanation for everything that occurred in the Randallsham pars and concident. 3 00:00:07,000 --> 00:00:11,679 It doesn't involve aliens at all. It was completely silent. It comes right 4 00:00:11,800 --> 00:00:17,800 over our heads. Classic bodies also really standing into clearing. He turned over 5 00:00:17,920 --> 00:00:20,239 to my father and held his hand, and he looked in his eyes and 6 00:00:20,320 --> 00:00:28,239 said, we're not alone. Welcome to podcast UFO for our live show. 7 00:00:28,760 --> 00:00:33,719 We're live every Wednesday at eight pm Eastern Standard Time on the Dark Matter Radio 8 00:00:33,759 --> 00:00:40,039 Network. Please remember to visit the website podcast ufo dot com for past episodes, 9 00:00:40,200 --> 00:00:44,439 blogs and forums. During the show, feel free to participate live in 10 00:00:44,479 --> 00:00:48,880 our chat room, and don't forget to like us on our very active Facebook 11 00:00:48,960 --> 00:00:53,159 page. Hello everyone, and welcome to the show. This is Martin. 12 00:00:53,280 --> 00:00:57,079 Willis your host, and we've got a great show. It's free for everybody, 13 00:00:57,119 --> 00:01:00,320 two hours long. I'll get into that in just a minute. Hondro 14 00:01:00,439 --> 00:01:03,439 Rojas is coming up with the news shortly, but first of all, I 15 00:01:03,520 --> 00:01:07,599 want to talk about the get joyride dot com platform. They were bought by 16 00:01:07,719 --> 00:01:11,040 Google and for some reason, Google does not want to keep it going. 17 00:01:11,319 --> 00:01:15,239 So that is being shut down at the end of this month, and so 18 00:01:15,359 --> 00:01:19,040 because of that, I'm giving out free shows until I have an alternative plan 19 00:01:19,599 --> 00:01:23,959 as far as subscribing for the second part of the show. And we have 20 00:01:25,040 --> 00:01:30,159 a listener who's going to help out and his name is Sam Bosell, and 21 00:01:30,319 --> 00:01:34,239 I am very grateful to him for he's going to show us away on how 22 00:01:34,280 --> 00:01:40,120 to do it. And so another little bit of housekeeping is I'm going to 23 00:01:40,159 --> 00:01:46,239 be off taking my first vacation since i started the show back in two eleven, 24 00:01:46,879 --> 00:01:51,879 and I'm going over to Russia for a couple of weeks and I am 25 00:01:51,920 --> 00:01:53,040 not going to be able to do the show from there. Next week we 26 00:01:53,079 --> 00:01:57,519 have a prerecorded show and it's a great one and I've it's already, it's 27 00:01:57,519 --> 00:02:02,439 in the can, ready to go. We have a doctor Eric Farouk. 28 00:02:02,799 --> 00:02:07,480 He's going to be talking about UFO trace evidence that he was trying to get 29 00:02:07,959 --> 00:02:13,240 taken serious by the scientific community and get it published, but no one took 30 00:02:13,280 --> 00:02:16,599 him seriously. He then wrote a book. He's a great interview. He's 31 00:02:16,639 --> 00:02:21,719 in the UK and secondly, one of my all time favorites will have Class 32 00:02:21,840 --> 00:02:30,879 Spawn. He is the director of International research and of the Sweden UFO great 33 00:02:30,919 --> 00:02:34,759 guy. He'll be on so those that's coming up next week. Again this 34 00:02:34,800 --> 00:02:39,960 week we have Mark O'Connell. He's written Star Trek episodes, one of the 35 00:02:40,000 --> 00:02:45,639 ones that we're in the top one hundred of all episodes, and he also 36 00:02:45,719 --> 00:02:50,639 has high strangeness. UFO dot Com is going to be a great guest coming 37 00:02:50,680 --> 00:02:53,560 up for the full two hours. And I want to thank everyone that has 38 00:02:53,560 --> 00:02:57,479 been supporting the show and hold tight. We'll be back with some other type 39 00:02:57,479 --> 00:03:01,120 of platform. And that's enough me babbling. How are you all, ajndro, 40 00:03:01,240 --> 00:03:07,199 How was your holiday weekend? It was wonderful? I am. I 41 00:03:07,240 --> 00:03:12,599 am wonderful because of it. That remains to be seen by the way, 42 00:03:13,039 --> 00:03:17,039 Yeah, well we'll see, I think so. I am pretty sure that 43 00:03:17,759 --> 00:03:22,759 everyone will agree. But yeah, I was on the beach in San Diego. 44 00:03:22,840 --> 00:03:27,159 The weather was great. I jumped around in the waves, I flew 45 00:03:27,159 --> 00:03:30,520 a kite. I just had a lot of fun. Right when is the 46 00:03:30,560 --> 00:03:35,159 weather not good? I mean, every time I've ever been to San Diego 47 00:03:35,240 --> 00:03:40,360 it's been like perfect. I know, in the winter, but I hope 48 00:03:40,400 --> 00:03:45,439 they do soon. Yeah, well, you know, last time we were 49 00:03:45,479 --> 00:03:46,599 there, they got a little bit of ring because I was there only like 50 00:03:46,639 --> 00:03:51,680 about a month ago, where I spent the week. I actually got to 51 00:03:51,719 --> 00:03:57,080 hang out with Ben Hanson, my friend, for a day, and but 52 00:03:57,439 --> 00:04:00,159 this time was a short trip. You know, it's only like I have 53 00:04:00,199 --> 00:04:02,599 our drive, so we try to get there often. But the weather. 54 00:04:03,240 --> 00:04:08,000 What was funny is it just so happened that one of my coworkers, it 55 00:04:08,080 --> 00:04:11,360 was her, she spent a week out there as well. When we got 56 00:04:11,400 --> 00:04:13,719 back, I was talking about how wonderful it was, and she's like, 57 00:04:13,879 --> 00:04:15,279 oh, it was so hot. It's miserable, and are you I'm like, 58 00:04:15,279 --> 00:04:18,759 are you kidding? Or from Arizona? I didn't feel hot at all. 59 00:04:18,839 --> 00:04:23,199 So sometimes people say it was a little hot, I didn't see it. 60 00:04:23,319 --> 00:04:28,560 So every time I've been out there, the weather is phenomenal and it's 61 00:04:28,560 --> 00:04:32,319 a lot of fun, and so I absolutely had a blast. Yea, 62 00:04:32,639 --> 00:04:38,720 yep, one of your favorite places any you know, Yeah, that whole 63 00:04:38,720 --> 00:04:43,279 area, it's just beautiful. But I wanted to tell you about Russia. 64 00:04:43,879 --> 00:04:47,279 Oh okay, when you go out there, just because I'm not sure if 65 00:04:47,319 --> 00:04:50,959 you're aware of all the politics going on, but I think it would be 66 00:04:50,959 --> 00:04:59,279 best if you not share any state secrets, okay, because the Cold War 67 00:04:59,360 --> 00:05:02,079 is supposed to be over, but there's tensions. It's not really over. 68 00:05:02,399 --> 00:05:08,120 You know, there's a lot of tension going on. We've got these um 69 00:05:08,920 --> 00:05:14,879 tariffs and things going on. It's it's very tense frelations and just don't get 70 00:05:14,879 --> 00:05:18,600 too comfortable, watch your back. Hopefully everything will be fine, but you 71 00:05:18,680 --> 00:05:24,079 might have one of these twenty ten like the movie situations where you know you're 72 00:05:24,079 --> 00:05:27,720 in Russia and then things go really bad. Yeah, there's just so many 73 00:05:27,839 --> 00:05:32,079 people predicting you hear you hear it on all over, you know, in 74 00:05:32,120 --> 00:05:36,120 different shows. How I think you know, mid September there's going to be 75 00:05:36,160 --> 00:05:41,959 this major meltdown and asteroids coming at the end of the month. So and 76 00:05:42,000 --> 00:05:45,959 I'm going to be there from the basically from the fifteenth through the thirtieth. 77 00:05:46,000 --> 00:05:48,800 So I'm going to be there when the asteroids hit and when the economics melt 78 00:05:48,879 --> 00:05:53,160 Yeah, all of that junk. I'm not so sure about all of that. 79 00:05:54,759 --> 00:05:58,480 Well, but you know, there could be some curse words exchanged over 80 00:05:58,519 --> 00:06:03,560 the telephone between Obama and Putin and that could upset people. But if Putin, 81 00:06:03,720 --> 00:06:09,839 you know, really gets huffy and you know he decides to keep you 82 00:06:09,879 --> 00:06:14,360 guys at hostage or something. My advice. I think he seems like the 83 00:06:14,399 --> 00:06:18,040 type of person that flattery goes everywhere with him. You know, it's one 84 00:06:18,040 --> 00:06:21,360 of those things. Tell him how great his muscles are, how great he's 85 00:06:21,399 --> 00:06:25,800 looking at, what a great job he's doing. And you'll probably be Okay, 86 00:06:26,040 --> 00:06:30,000 so you're way too sexy for your shirts. Yeah, yeah exactly. 87 00:06:30,000 --> 00:06:32,040 He'll be like, oh really, oh yeah, yeah, okay, I'll 88 00:06:32,079 --> 00:06:35,680 keep that in mind. I just advice I don't get stuck living at the 89 00:06:35,680 --> 00:06:41,839 airport or something. Yeah. Wow, anyway, soul, let's let's move 90 00:06:41,839 --> 00:06:46,279 into the UFO news for this week UFOs. So, I wanted to give 91 00:06:46,319 --> 00:06:49,959 an update because I did write a story before I left to San Diego with 92 00:06:50,040 --> 00:06:56,040 an update on the Homeland Security UFO stuff, and I wanted to get this 93 00:06:56,079 --> 00:06:59,120 out there. I was waiting, actually, because I didn't even include this 94 00:06:59,199 --> 00:07:02,000 in the story, and I really should have. But I did email Customs 95 00:07:02,000 --> 00:07:08,759 and Border Patrol, the local PR guy, and he said, okay, 96 00:07:08,839 --> 00:07:12,279 yeah, let me get you a statement. Never heard back from him. 97 00:07:12,360 --> 00:07:15,240 Emailed him and I said, hey, are you still getting me a statement? 98 00:07:15,560 --> 00:07:17,879 Haven't heard anything. So I was surprised I heard from him at all, 99 00:07:18,959 --> 00:07:25,040 but it seems they're not willing to share any information about this video. 100 00:07:26,199 --> 00:07:29,279 However, I have heard from We've heard from a couple of people, so 101 00:07:29,800 --> 00:07:36,920 we've alluded to this and that there's this Aeronautical and Astronautical association in France called 102 00:07:36,959 --> 00:07:43,519 three AF. We've talked to them about them before and about how they assist 103 00:07:44,240 --> 00:07:51,639 the French UFO organization and also the Chilean organization SEA and investigating UFOs. They 104 00:07:51,759 --> 00:08:01,920 did get back with these guys, the sd Society or the FOR or the 105 00:08:01,040 --> 00:08:07,879 Scientific Coalition for Ufology, the guys who investigated the Puerto Rico video, and 106 00:08:07,920 --> 00:08:11,560 they said that they liked their findings. They thought they did a great job 107 00:08:11,639 --> 00:08:16,600 with their report, and they also don't have an explanation. And then Billy 108 00:08:16,680 --> 00:08:22,000 Cox talked with doctor Richard Hayes, who what used to be a NASA research 109 00:08:22,079 --> 00:08:26,959 scientist and who also investigates UFOs. He doesn't like the term UFOs, he 110 00:08:28,000 --> 00:08:35,360 doesn't use it. He uses the term anomalous phenomenon. And he runs a 111 00:08:35,360 --> 00:08:39,240 group called NARCAP that look at this whole thing about more from the perspective of 112 00:08:39,279 --> 00:08:43,159 air safety. But he liked the video too, and the investigation. He 113 00:08:43,200 --> 00:08:48,600 doesn't know what it was, and he just thinks it deserves more research as 114 00:08:48,639 --> 00:08:54,559 well. And so those are some of the experts you know that have communicated 115 00:08:54,960 --> 00:08:58,039 are given an opinion. There's also another one that I've been in touch with 116 00:08:58,440 --> 00:09:01,720 and has been in touch with the group. He doesn't want to use his 117 00:09:01,840 --> 00:09:09,840 last name, or his position or the company he works for at least and 118 00:09:09,240 --> 00:09:13,759 because he's afraid of his career getting affected. And he works with a whole 119 00:09:13,840 --> 00:09:20,600 group of guys that are fleaar technicians. They work on the exact systems that 120 00:09:20,679 --> 00:09:26,440 you took this video. He says he's viewed thousands of hours of live and 121 00:09:26,519 --> 00:09:31,480 recorded video and him and his buddies don't know what the heck this is either 122 00:09:31,600 --> 00:09:35,799 in this video. In fact, he says, they discussed this video quite 123 00:09:35,799 --> 00:09:39,600 a bit in the office. None of them, unfortunately, are brave enough 124 00:09:39,639 --> 00:09:43,080 to come forward because they say it could, you know, negatively hurt their 125 00:09:43,120 --> 00:09:46,720 career. But I did ask him about some of the responses out there, 126 00:09:46,759 --> 00:09:52,440 such as Mark D'Antonio MUFON's photo and video and analysts that perhaps the object was 127 00:09:52,480 --> 00:09:58,840 a balloon. He thinks they measured their speed wrong, but this expert says, 128 00:09:58,840 --> 00:10:01,279 there's no way it's a balloon. It's too hot, so, in 129 00:10:01,320 --> 00:10:07,039 other words, the object's very dark, and the other objects in the video 130 00:10:07,159 --> 00:10:11,759 that are hot are also dark. That's the whole thermal imaging thing and how 131 00:10:11,759 --> 00:10:15,080 it works. So he says it's definitely not a balloon. It doesn't move 132 00:10:15,120 --> 00:10:18,480 like balloons that he's seen, and it's too hot, so he didn't believe 133 00:10:18,519 --> 00:10:26,039 it to be a balloon. The other person who had a theory is Chris 134 00:10:26,120 --> 00:10:31,879 Pajani. She's a paranormal researcher and she has a site called you Debunked It, 135 00:10:31,600 --> 00:10:35,320 So she believed she debunked this video and was able to see that it 136 00:10:35,399 --> 00:10:39,639 was a bird and various reasons. She thought again like Mark, that they 137 00:10:39,679 --> 00:10:45,080 got the speed calculations wrong, but she says you can see flapping, and 138 00:10:45,120 --> 00:10:50,159 she had some other things that she pointed out. Again though this Dave the 139 00:10:52,720 --> 00:10:58,960 the expert, says he does agree with her about some of her points about 140 00:10:58,000 --> 00:11:03,200 the calculations with bead. He doesn't think it's it's possible to be precise about 141 00:11:03,200 --> 00:11:07,399 how fast this object was going. However, he says he still doesn't believe 142 00:11:07,440 --> 00:11:11,440 it's a bird, he says, you definitely would have seen the wings he 143 00:11:11,519 --> 00:11:15,080 took. He sent me a picture of some birds you can see where their 144 00:11:15,159 --> 00:11:18,679 shape is very apparent, and it's not their wings are not cooler than the 145 00:11:18,759 --> 00:11:22,720 body. You know, there's been a great difference and temperature, so you 146 00:11:22,759 --> 00:11:28,240 can't see the entire body of the birds. But he puts in other aspects 147 00:11:28,519 --> 00:11:31,840 such as the movement of the object that shows it's not a bird, because 148 00:11:31,879 --> 00:11:37,240 birds fly in a particular way and this thing moves steadily along. So he 149 00:11:37,320 --> 00:11:41,720 just says, him and his buddies at the shop, they say they know 150 00:11:41,960 --> 00:11:46,200 these sort of systems better than anybody, and it's not, you know, 151 00:11:46,399 --> 00:11:50,120 anything that they've seen before. And I was able to verify, by the 152 00:11:50,159 --> 00:11:54,200 way, Dave, I do know his last name. I was able to 153 00:11:54,279 --> 00:12:00,120 verify he is who he is. I've seen his resume, I've found him 154 00:12:00,159 --> 00:12:03,399 referenced online. And this guy really is an expert. He is the type 155 00:12:03,399 --> 00:12:11,799 of person who, in fact, the level of expertise he's rated at is 156 00:12:11,879 --> 00:12:15,120 kind of a level where this is a kind of guy that could build his 157 00:12:15,240 --> 00:12:20,200 own system. He's just that much of an expert. So so, yeah, 158 00:12:20,279 --> 00:12:24,320 really interesting stuff. So it you know, the debate goes on, 159 00:12:24,919 --> 00:12:31,919 and I think what's great is people like doctor Haynes and the three AF and 160 00:12:31,240 --> 00:12:37,120 this Flare expert are coming in and it's just rare because we don't always have 161 00:12:37,600 --> 00:12:43,360 expert opinion. Often it's online, you know, researchers, amateurs for lack 162 00:12:43,360 --> 00:12:48,720 of a better word, not to disparage their work, because a lot of 163 00:12:48,720 --> 00:12:52,759 people do some great work, but usually we have amateurs. It's great to 164 00:12:52,799 --> 00:12:58,240 have some experts actually looking into this stuff and giving some responses. So exciting 165 00:12:58,559 --> 00:13:03,080 it is, and it will be fun to just see where this thing goes. 166 00:13:03,320 --> 00:13:05,639 I mean, we've been talking about it for a while. It's really 167 00:13:05,720 --> 00:13:13,159 quite amazing. And I can't personally see anything about a bird in that myself, 168 00:13:13,639 --> 00:13:16,240 but I understand about the speed part of it. Because of the way 169 00:13:16,320 --> 00:13:24,080 the maneuvering was happening. It would be awful hard to actually calculate the speed, 170 00:13:24,440 --> 00:13:26,799 I think, yeah, and that's what Dave says. It would be 171 00:13:26,879 --> 00:13:31,000 very difficult. However, you know, if you read the report, the 172 00:13:31,080 --> 00:13:37,559 section where they did calculate the speed, it's some very interesting work they did 173 00:13:37,639 --> 00:13:43,720 there, and they do thoroughly, you know, demonstrate how they determined speed. 174 00:13:45,279 --> 00:13:48,120 But even if they are off, it doesn't appear as though they're off 175 00:13:48,399 --> 00:13:54,720 much. But it's difficult to say. But yeah, really interesting, like 176 00:13:54,759 --> 00:13:58,639 you said, and you know, if this is you know what it is. 177 00:13:58,679 --> 00:14:03,279 If nobody is able to come up with any arguments against their findings, 178 00:14:03,759 --> 00:14:07,679 still it might not go anywhere. I mean Robert Powell who was a part 179 00:14:07,679 --> 00:14:11,159 of this group, he did the radar report of the Stephenville UFO siding, 180 00:14:11,200 --> 00:14:16,720 which is never after years it has not been disputed. Then you have cases 181 00:14:16,759 --> 00:14:20,200 like Chicago O'Hare another great case that's that fairly recent. But you know, 182 00:14:20,440 --> 00:14:24,240 no, you just it doesn't go anywhere. I mean, we all know 183 00:14:24,279 --> 00:14:28,600 about it, We learn about it. People talk about it periodically as a 184 00:14:28,639 --> 00:14:33,519 great case. But that's about it. Speaking of O'Hare, I am waiting 185 00:14:33,559 --> 00:14:39,399 for the day that someone that worked at that airport, that saw that that 186 00:14:39,559 --> 00:14:43,320 changed their career and you know, or doing something else, will come forward 187 00:14:43,320 --> 00:14:46,320 and actually talk about that. All those people were anonymous in that, and 188 00:14:46,480 --> 00:14:52,519 I would love if someone would actually come forward. Maybe they have no interest 189 00:14:52,559 --> 00:14:56,159 in doing that, but hopefully someone will. It would be great if they 190 00:14:56,240 --> 00:15:00,200 did. It was only seven years ago, so I think, you know, 191 00:15:00,279 --> 00:15:03,360 pretty much. When you're in that career, you're you're there for your 192 00:15:03,399 --> 00:15:09,360 career, so it might just take someone retiring. But then again, you 193 00:15:09,440 --> 00:15:13,000 know, not to be well, to be cynical, and I don't mean 194 00:15:13,039 --> 00:15:16,000 to be cynical, but unfortunately we see this ever so often. You know, 195 00:15:16,120 --> 00:15:20,600 someone could retire and then we have a situation like we've seen before where 196 00:15:20,960 --> 00:15:24,159 someone retires and they're they're really old and they finally come forward, but they 197 00:15:24,159 --> 00:15:28,120 say, oh, yeah, that was an alien and the aliens landed and 198 00:15:28,519 --> 00:15:33,759 I checked the aliens baggage, so I know those aliens. And then you 199 00:15:33,799 --> 00:15:37,440 know, they exaggerate and add stuff, which just hurts the credibility of the 200 00:15:37,480 --> 00:15:43,519 whole story. So yeah, we'll see what happens. Hopefully someone does come 201 00:15:43,559 --> 00:15:46,440 forward. You know what, I realized we have talked as long as we 202 00:15:46,600 --> 00:15:52,039 usually do for our news I can't believe it. Yeah can I can? 203 00:15:52,080 --> 00:15:54,399 I keep going now? Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, let's 204 00:15:54,399 --> 00:15:58,000 go. I'll be quick, okay, oh right, yeah, right, 205 00:15:58,720 --> 00:16:00,759 next story. Well, the next story is Exeter, which is not a 206 00:16:00,799 --> 00:16:03,679 news story. It's an old story. In fact, it's a fifty year 207 00:16:03,679 --> 00:16:08,639 old story. It happened in nineteen sixty five. But the anniversary was just 208 00:16:10,480 --> 00:16:15,679 in September third, and we had a great story written by an author named 209 00:16:15,879 --> 00:16:21,200 Eric Hoffman submitted to the website. He's written for us before, and he 210 00:16:21,279 --> 00:16:25,919 did a great job of telling in a concise manner the story of the Exeter 211 00:16:26,039 --> 00:16:30,759 siting and the investigation. So I just wanted to remember it here. There 212 00:16:30,840 --> 00:16:37,639 was also last weekend a festival near you that unfortunately I know you didn't make 213 00:16:37,639 --> 00:16:44,480 it too, but that memorializes the event. But this is a great case, 214 00:16:44,639 --> 00:16:48,440 and just for those who don't know much about it, this happened in 215 00:16:48,559 --> 00:16:53,080 Exeter, New Hampshire. It started when this young man, Norman Muscalero, 216 00:16:53,600 --> 00:17:00,399 was hitch hiking home after seeing his girlfriend. He had recently graduated from high 217 00:17:00,399 --> 00:17:03,480 school. It was the middle of the night, it was like two o'clock 218 00:17:03,480 --> 00:17:07,039 in the morning, and he was going to join the navy, so he's 219 00:17:07,079 --> 00:17:10,839 going into the service soon. So he had seen, you know, his 220 00:17:10,960 --> 00:17:15,480 girlfriend in Amesbury, Massachusetts, was on his way home, hitchhiking his way 221 00:17:15,519 --> 00:17:19,960 home. But he was walking at this point when at two am he saw 222 00:17:21,000 --> 00:17:26,319 these five bright red lights flashing in the woods and they started moving towards him. 223 00:17:26,359 --> 00:17:30,160 He was so frightened, he jumped into a ditch. At that point, 224 00:17:30,720 --> 00:17:36,039 you know, he noticed they eventually moved further away from him. So 225 00:17:36,079 --> 00:17:41,480 he ran to this nearby farmhouse and knocked on the door, but nobody was 226 00:17:41,519 --> 00:17:44,480 home. He then saw somebody in the street, so he runs to the 227 00:17:44,519 --> 00:17:48,079 street, stops the car, makes them let him in the car, and 228 00:17:48,240 --> 00:17:52,440 tells them to drive him to the police station. When he gets to the 229 00:17:52,440 --> 00:17:57,079 police station, he talks to an officer, Reginald Tollan, who knows Muscalero 230 00:17:57,200 --> 00:18:03,799 and you know, new him as an honest young man with high integrity, 231 00:18:03,240 --> 00:18:07,519 so he took him seriously. He got on the radio and called the other 232 00:18:07,599 --> 00:18:12,559 officers and said, hey, does anybody know anything about this weird report. 233 00:18:14,519 --> 00:18:18,039 There's a man named Eugene Bertrand another officer who was in the area, and 234 00:18:18,079 --> 00:18:23,559 he said, you know, some woman said had reported to him that she 235 00:18:23,680 --> 00:18:30,200 witnessed a huge object with red flashing lights that followed her car for twelve miles. 236 00:18:30,680 --> 00:18:34,920 So Bertrand comes into the police station, picks up Muscalero, and they 237 00:18:36,000 --> 00:18:41,720 go investigate where Muscalaro had seen the UFO. When they get there, sure 238 00:18:41,799 --> 00:18:47,119 enough, they see this gigantic triangular craft coming out of the forest and it 239 00:18:47,200 --> 00:18:51,880 had red flashing lights on it. Bertrand was so freaked out he pulled his 240 00:18:51,960 --> 00:18:56,240 gun. I guess it was just instinct he had, but he reholstered it 241 00:18:56,279 --> 00:18:57,960 and said let's get in the car. And they got back in the car 242 00:18:59,200 --> 00:19:03,680 and they waited there while this thing hovered over them. They called for backup 243 00:19:03,839 --> 00:19:07,000 and a man, an officer, David Hunt, came to the scene. 244 00:19:07,079 --> 00:19:12,200 He also saw the object and soon after Hunt came to the scene, it 245 00:19:12,680 --> 00:19:18,200 slowly flew off over the woods until it was out of sight. So a 246 00:19:18,359 --> 00:19:25,240 really interesting sighting by police officers and everything. There was a very thorough investigation 247 00:19:25,519 --> 00:19:32,160 and Hoffman does a great job summarizing that investigation. But essentially, you know, 248 00:19:32,480 --> 00:19:36,400 the Air Force came up with a lot of excuses. There's a book, 249 00:19:36,400 --> 00:19:41,599 a couple of books written about it. Raymond Fowler investigated it and wrote 250 00:19:41,599 --> 00:19:45,599 a book about it. So but essentially, you know, they felt that 251 00:19:45,720 --> 00:19:49,440 all of the explanations fell through. In fact that at one point the Air 252 00:19:49,480 --> 00:19:53,240 Force said, okay, you know it's not what we said it was. 253 00:19:53,319 --> 00:19:59,559 You know, we know it and we know that one of the responses we 254 00:19:59,640 --> 00:20:03,839 gave is it's not possible given the witness testimony. So that one was a 255 00:20:03,400 --> 00:20:08,240 case that was the refueler story where they had this the tanker that was supposed 256 00:20:08,240 --> 00:20:11,599 to be flying a refueler above. They were saying that, you know, 257 00:20:11,640 --> 00:20:15,839 that was one of the debunking or the attempt to debunking it. Yeah, 258 00:20:15,880 --> 00:20:18,400 it's one of the great I think it's one of the great stories, one 259 00:20:18,440 --> 00:20:22,400 of the one of the solid stories out there that that you do here. 260 00:20:22,920 --> 00:20:26,039 I would certainly think it's in the top, you know, fifty stories. 261 00:20:26,079 --> 00:20:32,119 Anyway, agreed, it's a really good case, and so it's an interesting 262 00:20:32,160 --> 00:20:36,039 story and if people are not aware of this case, they should check it 263 00:20:36,039 --> 00:20:41,000 out because it's a really interesting case. I went on the website oh months 264 00:20:41,000 --> 00:20:45,640 ago to see when this UFO festival was this year, and I totally got 265 00:20:45,680 --> 00:20:49,880 the date wrong. I missed it, so I really wanted to go. 266 00:20:51,119 --> 00:20:56,079 But there's also a one going on in New England in October sixteenth, it 267 00:20:56,200 --> 00:21:00,039 is pretty sure, and I'm going to be out that way to see a 268 00:21:00,160 --> 00:21:03,960 good friend, Mark D'Antonio. He'll be there. Hey Mark, we're just 269 00:21:04,000 --> 00:21:08,000 talking about him, yeah a minute ago. I'm so glad he's doing well. 270 00:21:08,559 --> 00:21:14,240 Yeah, No, getting one more story about one more story you had 271 00:21:14,319 --> 00:21:19,839 mentioned earlier about Helen Brimstone coming this month and we're all gonna die or something 272 00:21:19,880 --> 00:21:26,720 like this, And this story is some evidence to back up your your crazy 273 00:21:26,799 --> 00:21:32,599 claims. Um, this is we're not my claims. Just to get that 274 00:21:32,640 --> 00:21:37,680 clear. Yeah, okay, um, But this is a giant fireball that 275 00:21:37,799 --> 00:21:44,440 was videotaped over Thailand. So a lot of people caught it on video from 276 00:21:44,519 --> 00:21:48,319 Bangkok and the surrounding area, and yeah, it's a really cool video of 277 00:21:48,400 --> 00:21:55,119 this giant fireball in the sky. Pretty cool. In fact, one of 278 00:21:55,160 --> 00:21:59,480 the towns northeast of Bangkok got so freaked out that they thought it was a 279 00:21:59,519 --> 00:22:04,480 plane ashing and they dispatched over a hundred rescue workers to go find out what 280 00:22:04,519 --> 00:22:07,400 was going on. I don't know what these guys were doing because there was 281 00:22:07,480 --> 00:22:11,920 nothing found on the ground. I guess they were looking for something. But 282 00:22:11,359 --> 00:22:17,319 the news came that there was no report of a crash plane and it was 283 00:22:17,359 --> 00:22:22,640 believed to be a meteorite, and so the search was called off. But 284 00:22:22,839 --> 00:22:27,240 it's kind of interesting. The Bangkok Post posted a compilation video of some of 285 00:22:27,240 --> 00:22:33,200 the videos that people had gotten and it's like everybody. I don't know what 286 00:22:33,240 --> 00:22:37,720 it is. All the mopeds have cameras on them because most of like five 287 00:22:37,759 --> 00:22:42,000 out of these six videos are people on mopeds, which is just kind of 288 00:22:42,000 --> 00:22:45,440 funny. I don't know what's going on. I think that's a pretty anomalous 289 00:22:45,440 --> 00:22:52,119 phenomena on its own, but yeah, it's a very interesting video. What's 290 00:22:52,160 --> 00:22:56,000 funny too, is people have been given me a little bit of heck because 291 00:22:56,039 --> 00:23:02,440 I said a mysterious fireball caught on video. They're like, it's not mysterious, 292 00:23:02,480 --> 00:23:06,640 it's a meteorite. But actually there is a mystery because nobody can agree 293 00:23:06,839 --> 00:23:15,200 what it is. The local Bangkok astronomer and a local Bangkok was contacted the 294 00:23:15,279 --> 00:23:19,559 planetarium there and they said they didn't think it was a meteorite because they didn't 295 00:23:19,640 --> 00:23:25,359 have any reporports of it. They didn't have any records of one happening, 296 00:23:25,640 --> 00:23:32,039 and they suggested maybe it's a burning balloon. Interesting enough, weird however. 297 00:23:32,279 --> 00:23:38,559 Phil Platt a former NASA Hubble space telescope guy. You read him a lot, 298 00:23:38,599 --> 00:23:41,279 He does a lot. He's a very he's a skeptic really, so 299 00:23:41,319 --> 00:23:47,480 he writes about UFOs and not in a positive manner often, but he said, 300 00:23:47,519 --> 00:23:51,960 it's definitely a meteorite because it happened so quickly. However, the Bangkok 301 00:23:52,079 --> 00:23:57,400 Post looked up on this website sat view anything that could have been re entering 302 00:23:57,759 --> 00:24:03,880 and they found that there it was likely space junk. That at that time 303 00:24:03,920 --> 00:24:08,880 there was supposed to be a rocket falling back into the atmosphere, So they 304 00:24:08,920 --> 00:24:15,519 say it's most likely space junk. But so those people who are giving me 305 00:24:15,559 --> 00:24:18,759 heck can tell me, oh, it's obviously a meteorite. I don't know. 306 00:24:18,799 --> 00:24:22,160 I think if you look here and I put a link to it, 307 00:24:22,200 --> 00:24:26,039 because the Bangkok Post put a link, you can clearly see that at that 308 00:24:26,119 --> 00:24:30,440 time there was some space junks supposedly supposed to be re entering the atmosphere. 309 00:24:30,519 --> 00:24:36,279 So most likely it was space junk or a meteorite, and probably not a 310 00:24:36,319 --> 00:24:42,400 balloon on fire. But it's very shocking video. So it's really cool, 311 00:24:42,759 --> 00:24:45,920 right, Yeah, and all that can be seen in our show notes, 312 00:24:45,960 --> 00:24:51,640 all links that we'll go back to Open Minds dot TV. Well, it 313 00:24:51,640 --> 00:24:53,039 looks like you're going to have the next couple of weeks off while I have 314 00:24:53,119 --> 00:24:56,839 the next couple of weeks off. Yeah, yeah, well that's a I'm 315 00:24:56,839 --> 00:25:03,960 gonna miss talking to you, and if the world should end before your return, 316 00:25:03,079 --> 00:25:06,519 and this is the last show, I just want to say that it's 317 00:25:06,559 --> 00:25:11,039 been fun and I've had a great it's been a great run. I think 318 00:25:11,079 --> 00:25:15,559 I'm getting terry eyed here now for the show and humanity. Yeah, same 319 00:25:15,640 --> 00:25:19,759 here. Now I might actually be on your show while I'm in Russia. 320 00:25:19,839 --> 00:25:23,079 That's possible because the timing can work better. I'm not going to be on 321 00:25:23,119 --> 00:25:26,119 my own show in the middle of the night, but it's possible. I 322 00:25:26,119 --> 00:25:30,319 can record with you and it'll be a lot of fun. That will be 323 00:25:30,799 --> 00:25:34,279 awesome, So I'm looking forward to that. I really hope we can make 324 00:25:34,319 --> 00:25:37,799 that work. Yeah. Well, thanks a lot, Aljundro and we'll be 325 00:25:37,839 --> 00:25:41,880 talking to you soon. My pleasure. I talk to you soon. All 326 00:25:41,960 --> 00:25:45,000 right, hanging everyone for the quick music break. We'll be right back with 327 00:25:45,039 --> 00:26:30,480 Mark O'Connell. I'm here. If you didn't get my last message, how 328 00:26:30,559 --> 00:26:34,279 are you, Mark, I'm good, Thanks, good, good, Welcome 329 00:26:34,319 --> 00:26:37,480 to the show. Thank you, it's good to be here. Yes, 330 00:26:37,640 --> 00:26:47,319 So who is Mark O'Connell. I know Kurt Kurt, a mutual friend former 331 00:26:47,519 --> 00:26:52,640 guests on the show, was telling you you'd be a great guest, and 332 00:26:52,599 --> 00:26:57,440 you have quiet background, and I want to talk about that about your Star 333 00:26:57,519 --> 00:27:04,079 Trek episode, so that you've written about all that your website High Strangeness UFOs 334 00:27:04,119 --> 00:27:08,920 dot com. But first of all, who is Mark and how did you 335 00:27:10,160 --> 00:27:15,160 get interested in the subject to begin with? Well, Mark is a writer 336 00:27:15,200 --> 00:27:21,640 who lives in southern Wisconsin, and I have been interested in science fiction as 337 00:27:21,680 --> 00:27:26,160 far back as I can remember. One of my very first memories was of 338 00:27:26,240 --> 00:27:32,319 the early nineteen sixties. I was born in nineteen sixty and there was a 339 00:27:32,480 --> 00:27:37,319 very famous science fiction TV show on the air in nineteen sixty two through I 340 00:27:37,359 --> 00:27:41,759 think sixty four called The Outer Limits, and I can remember very vividly. 341 00:27:41,799 --> 00:27:45,720 For some strange reason that I still don't understand, my mom liked to watch 342 00:27:45,799 --> 00:27:49,839 that show. And here's a little, you know, two or three year 343 00:27:49,880 --> 00:27:53,160 old me. I was terrified of the monsters. They had some really scary 344 00:27:53,160 --> 00:27:57,680 monsters on that show, but I was fascinated, and I guess that's kind 345 00:27:57,680 --> 00:28:02,799 of what hooked me. And I can then remember a few years later when 346 00:28:02,839 --> 00:28:06,839 the original Star Trek went on the air. I was just in heaven because 347 00:28:06,880 --> 00:28:11,119 here was this fantastic new science fiction show. But there was. There was 348 00:28:11,160 --> 00:28:15,480 one problem. I had a very strict bedtime and Star Trek went on the 349 00:28:15,480 --> 00:28:19,039 air a half hour before my bedtime. But it was an hour long show. 350 00:28:19,200 --> 00:28:23,599 So I can remember. I can remember begging my mom, pleading with 351 00:28:23,599 --> 00:28:27,079 her to just let me stay up a half an hour longer on Thursday nights 352 00:28:27,079 --> 00:28:33,480 so I could watch the whole Star Trek episode. And then it's kind of 353 00:28:33,519 --> 00:28:36,480 a funny theme. Then I can remember when I was about ten years old, 354 00:28:36,519 --> 00:28:45,240 there was a British TV show called UFO that in Milwaukee was aired Saturday 355 00:28:45,359 --> 00:28:51,000 nights at six pm. Well, our family had dinner Saturday night at exactly 356 00:28:51,039 --> 00:28:53,480 six thirty pm every Saturday. And again it was an hour long show. 357 00:28:53,559 --> 00:28:59,640 So every Saturday I started watching UFO and I had to miss the second half. 358 00:28:59,640 --> 00:29:02,279 It wasn't until I was, you know, much later and got to 359 00:29:02,359 --> 00:29:07,640 get the shows a UFO on DVD that I was able to actually watch the 360 00:29:07,720 --> 00:29:12,880 second halves of all the episodes of UFO. I just pulled that UFO show 361 00:29:12,960 --> 00:29:18,240 up and I do remember it myself. It's a fun show. It's a 362 00:29:18,279 --> 00:29:22,119 funch show. So I have a long history. And then and the other 363 00:29:22,119 --> 00:29:25,119 part of it was that my mom was also. It's funny how my mom 364 00:29:25,200 --> 00:29:29,759 is such a big player in this story. She was a volunteer librarian in 365 00:29:29,799 --> 00:29:33,400 the small town where I grew up, a big Ben, Wisconsin, and 366 00:29:33,440 --> 00:29:37,160 she would take me into the library with her sometimes and I would for some 367 00:29:37,240 --> 00:29:41,359 reason, I just always gravitated towards the science fiction section. It was. 368 00:29:41,519 --> 00:29:44,160 It was a very small library. They couldn't have had more than about twenty 369 00:29:44,160 --> 00:29:48,000 science fiction books, but I probably read them all. And Yeah, like 370 00:29:48,039 --> 00:29:51,680 I said, I was just hooked. I've been a lifelong fan ever since. 371 00:29:52,519 --> 00:30:00,000 And so did you just pursue a writing career? Basically, yeah, 372 00:30:00,160 --> 00:30:03,920 I knew I wanted to. I knew I wanted to be involved in filmmaking 373 00:30:03,000 --> 00:30:07,160 or TV in some way. Spent some time in California, kind of learned, 374 00:30:07,480 --> 00:30:12,039 learned a few hard lessons that way. Ended up signing with an agent 375 00:30:12,880 --> 00:30:18,000 when Star Trek the Next Generation came on in the late nineteen eighties, I 376 00:30:18,000 --> 00:30:25,240 think eighty seven is when it premiered. I got a got a script that 377 00:30:25,400 --> 00:30:30,839 got noticed at Star Trek the Next Generation and that led to me. They 378 00:30:30,839 --> 00:30:36,559 invited me to pitch story ideas, which I did. From Wisconsin, a 379 00:30:36,599 --> 00:30:40,480 lot of people flew out to LA I couldn't really afford that. I was. 380 00:30:41,519 --> 00:30:45,200 I had a couple of young kids, and I couldn't really be flying 381 00:30:45,200 --> 00:30:48,160 off to California every couple of months to pitch stories, not knowing if I 382 00:30:48,160 --> 00:30:52,559 would actually sell one or not. And in the end it took me about 383 00:30:52,920 --> 00:30:56,680 you know, it took me probably half a dozen tries before I finally hit 384 00:30:56,720 --> 00:31:00,400 them on the right day with the right idea and made my first sale, 385 00:31:00,440 --> 00:31:04,599 and then and then made made four more four more sales to them over the 386 00:31:04,640 --> 00:31:08,519 next few years. Wow, And one of them ended up being I mentioned 387 00:31:08,559 --> 00:31:15,000 earlier. It was one of the top shows, wasn't it. Yeah, 388 00:31:15,039 --> 00:31:18,759 that was kind of a kick. Last year, a Hugo Award winning science 389 00:31:18,759 --> 00:31:25,200 fiction author Charlie Jane Anders, who writes for the website io nine dot com, 390 00:31:25,759 --> 00:31:30,359 she put together a really fun list of what she considered the top one 391 00:31:30,400 --> 00:31:36,279 hundred Star Trek episodes. So she included all seven hundred sum episodes of the 392 00:31:36,319 --> 00:31:41,720 original series, the animated series from the early nineteen seventies, and then of 393 00:31:41,720 --> 00:31:45,279 course Deep Space nine and Next Generation and Voyager and Enterprise, And of that 394 00:31:45,920 --> 00:31:49,839 one hundred, one of my episodes was number seventy two. It was called 395 00:31:49,920 --> 00:31:53,480 Humourns for Morn and it was it was a huge kick. I was very 396 00:31:53,519 --> 00:31:56,480 I was very honored to make it on that list because there were a lot 397 00:31:56,519 --> 00:32:00,440 of great, great episodes on that list. We have a mutual friend, 398 00:32:00,519 --> 00:32:04,960 Kurt Collins, who's been on this show, oh maybe three times or so. 399 00:32:06,160 --> 00:32:12,720 He's he's a serious researcher and he wouldn't have recommended you for this show 400 00:32:12,839 --> 00:32:15,079 unless you were a serious person. So I want to talk about that, 401 00:32:15,200 --> 00:32:21,839 or what is your involvement with UM? Have you done some researching yourself with 402 00:32:22,039 --> 00:32:24,839 move On or something like that. Yeah, And I would like to just 403 00:32:24,880 --> 00:32:30,559 thank Kurt for recommending me to you. I've Kurt. Kurt's been a regular 404 00:32:30,559 --> 00:32:34,880 reader of my blog and I always enjoy his comments and his insights. He's 405 00:32:34,880 --> 00:32:37,279 a very interesting guy, he is, and I'm glad. I'm glad to 406 00:32:37,319 --> 00:32:43,240 be online acquaintances with him. M Yeah about you know, as a writer, 407 00:32:43,279 --> 00:32:45,680 I'm always looking for interesting new things to write about, and in twenty 408 00:32:45,960 --> 00:32:52,480 eleven, I was in one of those phases where I had nothing to work 409 00:32:52,519 --> 00:32:57,720 on and I wanted to come up with something fun to occupy me. And 410 00:32:58,599 --> 00:33:01,839 I have a good friend who has been editing a photoblog for many years and 411 00:33:01,880 --> 00:33:06,279 it is very successful at it, And for for years and years he was 412 00:33:06,319 --> 00:33:08,400 bugging me to start writing a blog. You just said, you'd be you'd 413 00:33:08,400 --> 00:33:12,319 be terrific at it, you'd love it. Well. I could never think 414 00:33:12,319 --> 00:33:16,000 of anything that I really was interested in enough that I would want to continue 415 00:33:16,039 --> 00:33:21,839 writing about, you know, several times a week for weeks and months and 416 00:33:21,960 --> 00:33:27,839 years, and until you know, I just remember, oh God, yeah, 417 00:33:28,000 --> 00:33:30,519 UFOs. Of course, I've always been interested in that. I had 418 00:33:30,000 --> 00:33:35,440 kind of lost touched with the field over the years. I hadn't really followed 419 00:33:35,480 --> 00:33:38,400 all the things that have been going on over the last probably fifteen twenty years. 420 00:33:38,519 --> 00:33:43,559 But um, you know, once I thought of writing a blog about 421 00:33:43,640 --> 00:33:49,440 UFOs, the rest just kind of came naturally. I quickly realized that they 422 00:33:49,440 --> 00:33:53,200 are a lot of very smart UFO bloggers and writers out there, and I 423 00:33:53,279 --> 00:33:58,119 didn't really feel like I could compete with them. So I decided that I 424 00:33:58,119 --> 00:34:04,279 would make my blog high strangeness, a little bit funny when the opportunity arose, 425 00:34:05,000 --> 00:34:07,920 and to sort of portray myself as you know, a little bit of 426 00:34:07,000 --> 00:34:13,639 a bumbler in the UFO field. So that's you know, some of that 427 00:34:13,760 --> 00:34:15,719 is a bit of a stick although, but there's a lot of me that's 428 00:34:15,840 --> 00:34:21,559 really comes through as well. But then when I started writing the blog, 429 00:34:21,599 --> 00:34:23,480 I realized, Wow, I need a lot of stuff to write about. 430 00:34:24,159 --> 00:34:29,280 And I just happened to be on Moufon's website one day and I saw the 431 00:34:29,320 --> 00:34:34,760 button on their website that said become a certified UFO Field Investigator. And that's 432 00:34:34,760 --> 00:34:38,480 when lightning struck. I thought, of course, I'll become a Moufon investigator 433 00:34:38,519 --> 00:34:42,840 and I can write about that experience in the blog and that'll be a fun 434 00:34:42,920 --> 00:34:45,960 writing project and hopefully it'll be of interest to some people. So that that 435 00:34:46,360 --> 00:34:51,920 was the genesis of the whole thing four years ago, and so I became 436 00:34:51,960 --> 00:34:55,440 a Moufon investigator. I've been doing that for a little over three years now, 437 00:34:57,039 --> 00:35:04,199 and that's just been a continually fascinating experience um on so many levels. 438 00:35:04,239 --> 00:35:07,880 I mean, it's fascinating just to hear these firsthand accounts of people who've seen 439 00:35:07,960 --> 00:35:14,239 some really really unusual things. But it's also fascinating just to learn about the 440 00:35:14,360 --> 00:35:20,760 kind of people who who report these experiences. You know, the psychology behind 441 00:35:20,800 --> 00:35:23,800 it is really fascinating to me as well. So um, so yeah, 442 00:35:23,800 --> 00:35:28,199 so that's kind of where I come in. I've been I've been an investigator 443 00:35:28,199 --> 00:35:31,840 from mouf on for a little over three years. I am now the I'm 444 00:35:31,880 --> 00:35:37,800 the assistant State director and the chief investigator for the state of Wisconsin. We 445 00:35:37,960 --> 00:35:42,360 just brought on two new investigators, which which is a huge, huge relief. 446 00:35:42,400 --> 00:35:45,400 That's been great because we were we were a little shorthanded for the last 447 00:35:45,480 --> 00:35:49,440 year or so. But our State Director, Mike Lucas, does a fantastic 448 00:35:49,519 --> 00:35:52,840 job and it's it's a lot of fun and it's and it's really like I 449 00:35:52,880 --> 00:35:57,840 said before, it's just really fascinating work. Wow. Okay, if you're 450 00:35:57,920 --> 00:36:01,039 listening live, you can jump in our chat rooms at podcast ufo dot com 451 00:36:01,039 --> 00:36:06,119 and pose a question. You can also call in anytime during the show and 452 00:36:06,239 --> 00:36:10,119 that number is six h three nine six seven four h three zero. Just 453 00:36:10,119 --> 00:36:13,239 to let you know, Mark, we don't get a lot of call ins. 454 00:36:13,360 --> 00:36:16,840 Maybe once a show someone might call in, so um, don't be 455 00:36:16,880 --> 00:36:21,119 waiting for the phone to ring, Okay, but you'll see it come up. 456 00:36:21,159 --> 00:36:22,960 Since you're in Skype, you will see it come up, and I 457 00:36:22,960 --> 00:36:25,480 will take take the call. Of one does come in Oka and UM, 458 00:36:25,840 --> 00:36:35,800 So getting back to um your your interests in the UFO Topicum, have you 459 00:36:35,840 --> 00:36:40,480 actually seen UFO? Have you had a sighting yourself? When I when I 460 00:36:40,519 --> 00:36:44,920 started writing the blog in the summer of twenty eleven, I have a couple 461 00:36:44,960 --> 00:36:49,199 of sightings that I now think, well, I'm pretty sure one of them 462 00:36:49,320 --> 00:36:53,400 was a Chinese lantern. Um. The other one I'm not so sure about 463 00:36:53,480 --> 00:36:58,239 because it was stationary in the sky for as long as we watched it, 464 00:36:58,280 --> 00:37:00,800 and my wife and daughter saw it at the same time, but we were 465 00:37:00,840 --> 00:37:04,400 in a moving car and we were in a busy highway, so we didn't 466 00:37:04,440 --> 00:37:07,079 have a chance to pull over and actually observe it. So I don't have 467 00:37:07,119 --> 00:37:10,440 a whole lot of evidence to go on that one could have been a Chinese 468 00:37:10,480 --> 00:37:15,679 lantern two, but it's but it's still a bit of an unknown for me. 469 00:37:15,800 --> 00:37:19,639 But that's that's all I've seen. I'd love to see more, but 470 00:37:19,840 --> 00:37:24,039 that's it so far. Those Chinese lanterns pissed me off. They are pesky 471 00:37:24,079 --> 00:37:29,320 little buggers, aren't they They are? Yeah, that and drones and so 472 00:37:29,400 --> 00:37:36,039 what what is the sightings like in Wisconsin? It's it's it's been kind of 473 00:37:36,119 --> 00:37:40,840 up and down. Um this past year, I have had a whole string 474 00:37:42,079 --> 00:37:47,840 of really puzzling historical cases. I've had a whole lot of people who have 475 00:37:49,159 --> 00:37:53,599 decided, for whatever reason that something they saw twenty years ago or thirty years 476 00:37:53,599 --> 00:38:02,320 ago was just really really rattling around in their head for too long and they 477 00:38:02,320 --> 00:38:07,199 needed to finally tell somebody about it. I have a theory on that, 478 00:38:07,400 --> 00:38:10,320 and oh what is it? And it's come up on a show before, 479 00:38:10,480 --> 00:38:15,519 and that is a lot of people are watching this hanger one And you know, 480 00:38:15,599 --> 00:38:21,920 I myself, I'm not going to critique the show too much. They 481 00:38:22,519 --> 00:38:25,000 they let a lot of things go that I don't think should they should let 482 00:38:25,039 --> 00:38:32,440 go as being real. But still I think that any show like that causes 483 00:38:32,480 --> 00:38:38,599 awareness, and people are all around the country move On investigators are talking about 484 00:38:39,079 --> 00:38:43,880 old cases are coming to light because people are watching that and they're deciding to 485 00:38:44,519 --> 00:38:50,239 contact move On because it's so publicized in that show. And so that's why 486 00:38:50,400 --> 00:38:54,119 the old, the old sightings are coming forth. Yeah, that's definitely been 487 00:38:54,239 --> 00:38:58,239 been my experience, Martin. I've I've heard that from a lot of people 488 00:38:58,880 --> 00:39:01,760 who they say, yeah, I was watching and sometimes it's Hanger one. 489 00:39:01,880 --> 00:39:05,760 Sometimes it's one of the other shows, but they say, yeah, I 490 00:39:05,840 --> 00:39:09,480 was I saw this show on TV and they showed something that looked a whole 491 00:39:09,559 --> 00:39:14,519 lot like what I saw, And I suddenly realized, Hey, maybe other 492 00:39:14,599 --> 00:39:17,000 people have seen the same thing, and that becomes a big driver for a 493 00:39:17,039 --> 00:39:22,440 lot of these people. It has anybody else seen the same thing I saw? 494 00:39:22,079 --> 00:39:25,880 So so yeah, it's an interesting chain reaction that kind of leads people 495 00:39:25,920 --> 00:39:30,320 to report their cases. So yeah, the last year or so, lots 496 00:39:30,320 --> 00:39:34,480 and lots of historic cases. The summer before that, the summer of twenty 497 00:39:34,719 --> 00:39:40,320 fourteen, we actually had a little flap right here in south central Wisconsin, 498 00:39:40,440 --> 00:39:45,880 right in my home county, Jefferson County. I had, within the space 499 00:39:45,920 --> 00:39:53,519 of two months, I had I think five four or five sightings that were 500 00:39:54,440 --> 00:39:59,719 very very similar. They weren't all on the same night, so it wasn't 501 00:40:00,239 --> 00:40:06,119 seeing the exact same thing, but I had several reports spread over this time 502 00:40:06,159 --> 00:40:10,800 period that were remarkably similar, reported by people who I am assuming didn't know 503 00:40:10,880 --> 00:40:16,239 each other, and in most of the cases there were multiple witnesses. Most 504 00:40:16,400 --> 00:40:22,679 three out of the four cases involved families where the husband and wife and at 505 00:40:22,760 --> 00:40:28,079 least one of their kids saw what was in the sky. The fourth case 506 00:40:29,079 --> 00:40:37,360 was a married couple. But the family cases I thought were really interesting because 507 00:40:37,360 --> 00:40:39,320 the dynamic kind of carried out the same way. It was like the dad 508 00:40:39,360 --> 00:40:45,199 saw it first, called the kid out, they called mom out, and 509 00:40:45,280 --> 00:40:50,639 everybody saw it. And in one case in particular, the dad and the 510 00:40:50,719 --> 00:40:54,440 sun hopped in their car to chase this thing down. And because their first 511 00:40:54,480 --> 00:40:58,920 thought was it looked like people over on the next block, we're shooting laser 512 00:40:58,960 --> 00:41:01,599 pointers up in the tree, So they thought, oh, that's kind of 513 00:41:01,599 --> 00:41:04,960 interesting. Let's go see what's happening. So they got in their car and 514 00:41:05,039 --> 00:41:07,960 drove around the block. While they couldn't see anything going on with their neighbors, 515 00:41:07,360 --> 00:41:09,679 but they could still see this thing in the sky, only now it 516 00:41:09,719 --> 00:41:15,159 seemed even further away. So they over the course of about forty five minutes, 517 00:41:15,280 --> 00:41:19,880 they drove to three different spots here in town in our town, Fort 518 00:41:19,920 --> 00:41:23,679 Atkinson, and then drove out of town and kept seeing this thing. And 519 00:41:23,800 --> 00:41:30,280 what they saw was a white, glowing sphere that towards the end seemed to 520 00:41:30,320 --> 00:41:36,519 be sort of wrapped in a cloudlike substance. But there were also some signs 521 00:41:36,559 --> 00:41:42,480 of blue and orange lights around the sphere, and they watched it out on 522 00:41:42,519 --> 00:41:46,440 this lonely highway outside of town for about fifteen minutes, and then it seemed 523 00:41:46,480 --> 00:41:51,239 to start moving towards them, and they got very scared and high tailed at 524 00:41:51,280 --> 00:41:53,840 home, and they never saw it again. So that was a real baffler 525 00:41:53,960 --> 00:41:58,760 to have all those cases right here within like ten miles of where I live, 526 00:41:59,440 --> 00:42:04,760 all take place in May and June of twenty fourteen, and all involving 527 00:42:04,960 --> 00:42:07,559 really kind of similar I guess we could call them, you know, a 528 00:42:07,639 --> 00:42:14,639 Heineck definition of meandering nocturnal lights. They were all the objects that were described 529 00:42:14,639 --> 00:42:17,760 were all very similar. And then and then it abruptly stopped. You know, 530 00:42:19,159 --> 00:42:21,199 we got to the end of June, there were no more reports. 531 00:42:21,280 --> 00:42:23,320 Nobody ever saw anything like that again in our area, or at least nobody 532 00:42:23,320 --> 00:42:30,679 reported it. Wow. Wow, good stuff. Historically, has there been 533 00:42:30,719 --> 00:42:37,079 any major case that happened in Wisconsin that comes to mind? Yeah, one 534 00:42:37,119 --> 00:42:45,920 just came up this summer that that um is is still being investigated. I 535 00:42:45,039 --> 00:42:49,039 have to apologize. I've just I had a lot of life stuff going on 536 00:42:49,079 --> 00:42:52,280 in the last month, so I've basically taken the last month off from blogging 537 00:42:52,400 --> 00:42:54,960 and moof on work. So I'm a little rusty. You'll have to just 538 00:42:55,039 --> 00:43:01,320 forgive me. But but yeah. Earlier this summer, a gentleman reported a 539 00:43:01,360 --> 00:43:08,119 case that took place at a military base in central Wisconsin called Fort McCoy. 540 00:43:08,199 --> 00:43:14,199 Took place in nineteen eighty. This gentleman was retired and living in I can't 541 00:43:14,199 --> 00:43:17,840 remember, somewhere down in the southeast. We had a really fascinating talk. 542 00:43:17,880 --> 00:43:22,280 He was very he seemed came off as very sincere on the phone. What 543 00:43:22,360 --> 00:43:27,800 had happened was he had been stationed at Fort McCoy in nineteen eighty. When 544 00:43:27,800 --> 00:43:30,800 the fort was used, this was not a combat for it. It was 545 00:43:30,840 --> 00:43:37,119 a training base, and it was being used to house all these Cuban refugees 546 00:43:37,119 --> 00:43:40,719 who had come over on the flotilla in nineteen eighty when Castro basically opened up 547 00:43:40,760 --> 00:43:45,039 the prisons and let you know, let all the bad eggs loose, and 548 00:43:45,079 --> 00:43:50,199 they all came over to the US. Well, you know, a couple 549 00:43:50,280 --> 00:43:52,800 thousand of them ended up in Fort McCoy in Wisconsin. And this gentleman was 550 00:43:52,920 --> 00:43:58,280 part of the battalion that had been brought in just to help patrol the base, 551 00:43:59,280 --> 00:44:05,320 and at one point some of the refugees actually tore down a fence and 552 00:44:05,400 --> 00:44:08,239 tried to escape, so this gentleman had to be part of a living wall. 553 00:44:08,320 --> 00:44:12,719 They made a living fence to cover this part of the fence that had 554 00:44:12,719 --> 00:44:17,480 been torn down. And one night he's out with fifty other guys in forming 555 00:44:17,480 --> 00:44:22,719 this human chain, and it's his turn to go to sleep, and just 556 00:44:22,760 --> 00:44:27,159 as he's getting into a sleeping bag, he sees this object appear from behind 557 00:44:27,199 --> 00:44:36,519 the trees. It's roughly rectangular in shape, and it has He called it 558 00:44:36,559 --> 00:44:38,360 a window, but then he said it wasn't really a window because he could 559 00:44:38,400 --> 00:44:42,599 tell it didn't have glass in it. It was more of a force shield 560 00:44:42,719 --> 00:44:47,079 covering this opening. But he could see two beings inside this window. And 561 00:44:47,159 --> 00:44:52,880 as this object moved across the sky from right to left, it seemed to 562 00:44:52,960 --> 00:44:57,960 him that the heads of these beings were turning as though they were watching him 563 00:44:58,000 --> 00:45:01,840 as the craft went by. Then it disappeared behind the trees, and this 564 00:45:01,880 --> 00:45:07,119 guy's lieutenant was standing right next to him when he saw this, and he 565 00:45:07,199 --> 00:45:10,280 looked at his lieutenant, and his lieutenant just said, don't say a word. 566 00:45:10,719 --> 00:45:15,320 Wow. And he went to bed. He got into a sleeping bag 567 00:45:15,360 --> 00:45:17,039 and went to bed, and he said, Mark, that was one of 568 00:45:17,079 --> 00:45:22,079 the strangest things about this whole story. He said, after this bizarre thing 569 00:45:22,119 --> 00:45:25,920 I had just seen in the sky, I put my head on the pillow 570 00:45:25,920 --> 00:45:30,199 and I fell into the deepest sleep I've ever had. He said. I 571 00:45:30,280 --> 00:45:35,320 should have been wide awake and terrified. He said, I still can't understand 572 00:45:35,360 --> 00:45:38,280 why I was able to fall asleep and sleep so soundly. So and there 573 00:45:38,280 --> 00:45:42,280 are a lot of interesting details to this. He said that while he was 574 00:45:42,280 --> 00:45:45,639 watching it, he looked up and down the line of his fellow infantrymen who 575 00:45:45,639 --> 00:45:50,360 were forming this human wall, and he said they were all staring up at 576 00:45:50,400 --> 00:45:52,679 it, and a lot of guys had cameras on them, and they were 577 00:45:52,719 --> 00:45:59,000 taking pictures with the cameras. And then the next day when he got up 578 00:45:59,000 --> 00:46:00,360 the next day, he asked his lieutenant. He said, well, should 579 00:46:00,360 --> 00:46:05,519 we tell the colonel about this? And the lieutenant said, you are on 580 00:46:05,559 --> 00:46:07,880 your own, don't. I don't. I don't want to know what you're 581 00:46:07,920 --> 00:46:12,960 going to do. So they saw they saw the commander of the base at 582 00:46:12,960 --> 00:46:16,280 breakfast, and this guy he went up and talked to the commander of the 583 00:46:16,280 --> 00:46:21,840 base and he said, you know, I saw something very strange, you 584 00:46:21,880 --> 00:46:23,679 know, out on the out on the perimeter last night, and I believe 585 00:46:23,719 --> 00:46:28,559 a lot of the other guys did too. And the commander of the base 586 00:46:28,639 --> 00:46:32,239 said, he said, I tell you what he said, if any of 587 00:46:32,239 --> 00:46:37,559 the local papers report on it, then we will file an official report. 588 00:46:37,679 --> 00:46:43,239 And this the guy who reported the case, he just he said, well, 589 00:46:43,239 --> 00:46:46,519 of course the CEO knew that as long as we were doing this human 590 00:46:46,599 --> 00:46:50,480 fence duty, none of us was ever going to see a local paper. 591 00:46:51,039 --> 00:46:52,719 We were never you know, we had no chance to get off the base 592 00:46:52,800 --> 00:46:57,159 and buy a local paper. So he said that was the CEO's way of, 593 00:46:57,239 --> 00:47:00,440 you know, kind of cleverly just brushing it under the rud So but 594 00:47:00,599 --> 00:47:06,639 what this guy did next was really interesting. He said, he said, 595 00:47:06,719 --> 00:47:10,840 I still have the duty roster because he was he was the lieutenants he was 596 00:47:10,920 --> 00:47:15,159 directed. I don't know the ranks I apologize to if they're military folks out 597 00:47:15,159 --> 00:47:21,920 there. He was the aid to the lieutenant who was supervising the human wall, 598 00:47:22,639 --> 00:47:24,920 so he sort of had the records and things. And he told me 599 00:47:24,960 --> 00:47:30,639 I still have the duty roster from that night. And he said, I 600 00:47:30,639 --> 00:47:34,599 always wonder if any of these guys could be contacted, if they would remember 601 00:47:34,639 --> 00:47:37,559 anything. So he sent me a copy of the duty roster. We have 602 00:47:37,639 --> 00:47:42,440 the duty roster, and I've been talking with my colleagues here at Wisconsin moufon 603 00:47:42,639 --> 00:47:47,679 about, first of all, whether we can do anything with that information, 604 00:47:47,760 --> 00:47:52,199 and if we can, then what is the best approach, because you know, 605 00:47:52,840 --> 00:47:55,960 we would be contacting people about something that happened over you know, thirty 606 00:47:57,000 --> 00:48:00,800 five years ago, and they may they may not want to talk about it. 607 00:48:00,880 --> 00:48:04,840 They may not be happy that somebody you know, had their name and 608 00:48:04,960 --> 00:48:07,840 called them. So so we've been a little stymied on that. It would 609 00:48:07,840 --> 00:48:12,840 be really it would be It would be a really a big deal if we 610 00:48:12,840 --> 00:48:15,760 could get some corroboration on it. But but it presents some ethical problems that 611 00:48:15,800 --> 00:48:22,639 we haven't really quite been able to solve. But it's been a really fascinating 612 00:48:22,679 --> 00:48:27,440 case. And the gentleman has as he's as he's um remembered more details. 613 00:48:27,440 --> 00:48:30,519 He's been really great about sending more information about the experience. So it's a 614 00:48:30,639 --> 00:48:38,480 it's it's his description is very detailed, UM and and in my eyes, 615 00:48:38,920 --> 00:48:44,840 very very credible. UM. He really impressed me with his sincerity. He's 616 00:48:44,880 --> 00:48:47,400 been sitting on this story for thirty five years. He's never told a soul 617 00:48:49,159 --> 00:48:52,320 um, you know, outside of his commanders, and he you know, 618 00:48:52,400 --> 00:48:55,760 he has absolutely nothing to gain by reporting the story. Now. He just 619 00:48:55,760 --> 00:48:59,800 saw something on TV that reminded him of it, and he thought, oh 620 00:48:59,719 --> 00:49:02,039 wow, I wonder if anybody else has seen anything like this, So wow, 621 00:49:02,280 --> 00:49:07,159 we'll see that's that's probably the best one of this latest batch. Yeah. 622 00:49:07,159 --> 00:49:10,920 It actually gave someone on the chat from goosebumps. They said, oh, 623 00:49:12,000 --> 00:49:14,559 yeah, I felt the same way, believe me. Yeah. Well, 624 00:49:14,559 --> 00:49:21,000 you know, you very very rarely hear about anyone seeing actual beings. 625 00:49:21,440 --> 00:49:24,840 Um, there's probably only a handful of stories that I've heard about, and 626 00:49:25,440 --> 00:49:28,559 you know, one of them, I don't know if you've ever seen the 627 00:49:28,719 --> 00:49:34,480 video of the Turkey UFO over the sea. That one, Um, that 628 00:49:34,519 --> 00:49:38,400 one shows what look looks like it could be beings and they're moving and everything. 629 00:49:39,000 --> 00:49:43,519 Um, pardon me, Well, another thing, if I could just 630 00:49:43,559 --> 00:49:46,239 elaborate a little more on this, on this gentleman's on this gentleman's story that 631 00:49:46,280 --> 00:49:52,679 he told me. One of the things that I talked before about the psychology 632 00:49:52,760 --> 00:49:57,440 of under understanding, you know, why people report things. Another another aspect 633 00:49:57,440 --> 00:50:01,400 of that is, I'm really interested to hear how people expressed themselves and how 634 00:50:01,440 --> 00:50:07,599 they describe things. And so there were certain things in this gentleman's story that 635 00:50:07,639 --> 00:50:13,159 he was really he was trying so hard to described to me, but he 636 00:50:13,280 --> 00:50:16,360 just couldn't come up with the word. Even after thirty five years, he 637 00:50:16,599 --> 00:50:22,719 still couldn't come up with the right words to describe what he saw and what 638 00:50:22,840 --> 00:50:28,199 he felt. For instance, this the window in the side of the craft 639 00:50:28,239 --> 00:50:30,320 that he said wasn't really a window because he could tell there wasn't glass in 640 00:50:30,400 --> 00:50:34,880 it. He you know, he was really struggling to come up with an 641 00:50:34,960 --> 00:50:38,599 explanation for the force field or whatever it was that he thought thought was in 642 00:50:38,679 --> 00:50:43,320 that in that hole. The other thing was that as this object moved past, 643 00:50:43,440 --> 00:50:46,599 there was sort of there was sort of what looked like sort of a 644 00:50:46,679 --> 00:50:52,280 rocket exhaust coming out of the end of it, but it wasn't really moving. 645 00:50:52,480 --> 00:50:58,360 It was just sort of static. And he tried so hard to describe 646 00:50:58,360 --> 00:51:02,199 this flame, this static flame to me, and after about a minute minute 647 00:51:02,199 --> 00:51:05,519 and a half, he just gave up. He just said, he just 648 00:51:05,559 --> 00:51:07,719 said, I just don't really know what else to tell you about it. 649 00:51:07,960 --> 00:51:13,519 I'm not getting it across. I can't really explain exactly what I saw, 650 00:51:14,119 --> 00:51:16,960 and I can't and I just can't come up with the right words. So 651 00:51:17,119 --> 00:51:20,599 you know, in that case, he just gave up. He could not 652 00:51:20,719 --> 00:51:24,599 figure out how to convey, you know, what he had seen. Question 653 00:51:24,639 --> 00:51:30,320 on the message board, someone wants to know did he get into details when 654 00:51:30,320 --> 00:51:35,760 he describing the beings? All he saw were silhouettes? In fact, he 655 00:51:35,840 --> 00:51:38,039 sent when he sent me the duty rosters, he also sent me a sketch 656 00:51:38,760 --> 00:51:44,599 that he had made, and I do have I have a scan of that. 657 00:51:44,840 --> 00:51:49,519 I um, again, I apologize, I'm I'm coming into this a 658 00:51:49,519 --> 00:51:52,639 little rusty. I don't have I don't have my I don't have visual aids 659 00:51:52,639 --> 00:51:55,480 ready. But you know, maybe there's a way we can post this on 660 00:51:55,519 --> 00:52:00,480 your website or some Actually I think I may have posted this on my blog, 661 00:52:00,519 --> 00:52:02,760 but I can't remember. A lot of what I can do is if 662 00:52:04,079 --> 00:52:07,119 there's something like this comes up in conversation, if you send me that scan, 663 00:52:07,280 --> 00:52:09,519 I'll just put it right in the show notes for the list. Okay, 664 00:52:09,719 --> 00:52:13,920 right, great, Well, so he did. He drew a very 665 00:52:13,960 --> 00:52:20,960 detailed sketch of the object, and he and he drew the figures in silhouette, 666 00:52:21,000 --> 00:52:23,679 and they look humanoid. It's sort of like the upper half of their 667 00:52:23,719 --> 00:52:28,880 bodies maybe from about if I remember right, from about waist up maybe, 668 00:52:29,079 --> 00:52:30,599 and you can see sort of the shapes of the shoulders in the shapes of 669 00:52:30,679 --> 00:52:35,639 heads. So he didn't he didn't see any features, He didn't see any 670 00:52:35,719 --> 00:52:42,119 skin or clothing or anything. He just saw a silhouettes. But he did 671 00:52:42,159 --> 00:52:45,639 sense that the heads were moving in time with the motion of the craft, 672 00:52:45,719 --> 00:52:49,920 so that they remained looking at him. But I also when he when he 673 00:52:49,960 --> 00:52:52,280 described that to me, I thought, well, gosh, there were fifty 674 00:52:52,280 --> 00:52:55,159 other people seeing the same thing. I wonder if it looked that way to 675 00:52:55,400 --> 00:52:59,440 all the other men, because you know, all these men are basically in 676 00:52:59,480 --> 00:53:06,039 a straight line that's running parallel to the trajectory of this object in the sky. 677 00:53:06,199 --> 00:53:08,440 So you know, if if we were able to ever able to get 678 00:53:08,480 --> 00:53:12,519 in touch with any of these other any of these other folks who were there 679 00:53:12,519 --> 00:53:15,199 that night, it would be it would be interesting to see or to hear 680 00:53:15,239 --> 00:53:22,840 how they perceived these beings inside the craft. I was looking through your blog 681 00:53:22,880 --> 00:53:25,880 a little bit and I saw that you wrote on the what I call the 682 00:53:27,039 --> 00:53:32,280 Atacoma Greers doctor Greer's Baby. Yeah, uh yeah, and uh, I 683 00:53:32,320 --> 00:53:38,599 actually did a spoof on that when he was right before that movie came out, 684 00:53:39,039 --> 00:53:46,000 so YouTube it needs to be spoofed. So let's let's uh, let's 685 00:53:46,039 --> 00:53:51,360 touch on that a little bit. And not only that, I did promise 686 00:53:51,480 --> 00:53:55,639 the listener that I would not keep bringing up the May fifth Mummy. But 687 00:53:57,920 --> 00:54:02,039 in your opinion, Um, where do you think I actually think the Mummy 688 00:54:02,159 --> 00:54:07,360 was worse for the UFO community, But I don't think I got a lot 689 00:54:07,400 --> 00:54:14,159 of publicity. Um this, uh the movie serious, there's has all over 690 00:54:15,280 --> 00:54:19,519 Netflix and everything else. So it's still you know, like ongoing, whereas 691 00:54:19,639 --> 00:54:23,000 The Mummy is kind of quiet right now. But um, but there are 692 00:54:23,039 --> 00:54:30,239 still people clinging on to saying that this is a what it it's still an 693 00:54:30,320 --> 00:54:34,559 alien. Well, you know, supposedly there was going to be that film 694 00:54:34,639 --> 00:54:39,239 Code of Chrome I was going to come out anytime now telling that whole story. 695 00:54:39,599 --> 00:54:43,519 I haven't seen a Hydner hair of that, and I kind of doubt 696 00:54:43,559 --> 00:54:45,719 that we will. Um. Yeah, that's a that's an interesting question. 697 00:54:45,760 --> 00:54:49,760 And I remember now that I included that on one of my one of my 698 00:54:50,320 --> 00:54:52,880 haha funny questions that I posted on my blog, how to comm a humanoid 699 00:54:53,039 --> 00:55:00,159 or or um Roswell slide being um. I think, uh, you know, 700 00:55:00,199 --> 00:55:05,000 because because there was a film associated with the outcome of Humanoid, because 701 00:55:05,000 --> 00:55:08,719 it was so closely associated with the citizen hearing on disclosure, you know, 702 00:55:08,760 --> 00:55:12,960 that was all sort of a big package deal the career, you know, 703 00:55:13,039 --> 00:55:17,119 put together. I think probably at the time, yeah, I think that 704 00:55:17,280 --> 00:55:22,679 probably made more waves than than the Mummy and the Roswell Slide. I think 705 00:55:22,679 --> 00:55:28,880 the roswellt slide figure was maybe a little more insulated in UFO world. But 706 00:55:29,239 --> 00:55:30,159 since you asked, since you bring it up, though, it kind of 707 00:55:30,199 --> 00:55:37,880 makes me. It makes makes me think about how early in twenty fifteen there 708 00:55:37,960 --> 00:55:40,000 was there was a whole string in January and February there's a whole string of 709 00:55:40,039 --> 00:55:45,320 news stories about UFOs that really hit the big time. I mean, they 710 00:55:45,320 --> 00:55:50,199 were getting big time coverage on the Today Show and CNN. There was, 711 00:55:50,400 --> 00:55:55,760 first of all, there was um the someone the CIA tweeted that, you 712 00:55:55,800 --> 00:56:00,519 know, the vast majority of UFO sightings in the US in the fifties and 713 00:56:00,559 --> 00:56:06,119 sixties were because of their YouTube spy planes. Oh yes, you know that 714 00:56:06,119 --> 00:56:10,079 that story got a lot of play. It's a it was a bizarre thing 715 00:56:10,199 --> 00:56:15,760 for the CIA to be talking about. I still can't figure out why the 716 00:56:15,840 --> 00:56:19,960 why they sent out that blog, but whatever, it got a lot of 717 00:56:20,000 --> 00:56:24,679 attention. And then close on the heels of that was that episode where the 718 00:56:24,880 --> 00:56:30,840 live video feed from the International Space Station was cut off supposedly moments after a 719 00:56:30,920 --> 00:56:35,880 UFO appeared on screen. That story got a whole lot of coverage, and 720 00:56:35,920 --> 00:56:38,880 it was kind of funny to see. It seemed as though the news outlets 721 00:56:38,880 --> 00:56:43,719 that missed out on the first story all all just pounced on the next one 722 00:56:43,719 --> 00:56:45,559 because they didn't want to lose out. And then after that, there was 723 00:56:45,599 --> 00:56:51,079 that story with the Black Vault dot com where the gentleman who runs that website, 724 00:56:51,239 --> 00:56:52,880 you know, got all that attention for saying, hey, I've just 725 00:56:53,000 --> 00:56:58,880 released all one hundred thirty thousand pages of Project Bluebook files for free, when 726 00:56:58,920 --> 00:57:01,559 in fact they'd all been aailable for free for a long long time already. 727 00:57:02,199 --> 00:57:07,159 And that story got immense amount of publicity. So a couple months later, 728 00:57:08,039 --> 00:57:15,840 you know, the the the event in Mexico City with the Roswell slides. 729 00:57:16,039 --> 00:57:21,320 I have to wonder, you know, did we're members of the mainstream media 730 00:57:21,400 --> 00:57:24,039 feeling like they had been burned on those first three stories and they just didn't 731 00:57:24,280 --> 00:57:28,760 didn't want to touch it. I don't know. Maybe because it took place 732 00:57:28,760 --> 00:57:31,400 in Mexico, people just kind of ignored it. I'm not sure. I 733 00:57:31,440 --> 00:57:37,119 think that's the consensus of a lot of people is because it was in Mexico. 734 00:57:37,760 --> 00:57:42,039 And I am actually very thankful for that, because, you know, 735 00:57:42,079 --> 00:57:45,360 I just think that was very damaging or it could have been a lot worse. 736 00:57:46,440 --> 00:57:51,000 You know, if it got a great amount of coverage, it would 737 00:57:51,079 --> 00:57:55,360 be a real problem. I think. Yeah. And you know, I 738 00:57:55,440 --> 00:58:00,760 haven't spoken to Don Schmidt at all since that happened, but from what I 739 00:58:00,840 --> 00:58:07,280 understand, and this may be totally wrong, I don't know, but I 740 00:58:07,320 --> 00:58:10,840 think he's still standing with the fact that he thinks that it's an alien. 741 00:58:12,719 --> 00:58:16,440 Well, since you bring up mister Schmidt, your listeners will be the first 742 00:58:16,480 --> 00:58:22,679 to learn that as of today, I have been challenged by Don Schmidt to 743 00:58:22,800 --> 00:58:28,679 have a public debate on Roswell. Really, yes, it's kind of interesting. 744 00:58:28,760 --> 00:58:32,480 It's just at the beginning of June I took part in the first ever 745 00:58:32,599 --> 00:58:37,719 Milwaukee Paranormal Conference in Milwaukee, Wisconsin. Had a great time. The organizer, 746 00:58:37,719 --> 00:58:42,519 T Crulos, is a writer who who had he put on this. 747 00:58:43,119 --> 00:58:50,800 He put on this whole conference basically to celebrate the publishing of his book, 748 00:58:50,880 --> 00:58:52,480 which if I remember right, it's over in the next year. I think 749 00:58:52,480 --> 00:58:57,920 it's called Monster Hunters, where he basically did some investigative reporting where he spent 750 00:58:58,039 --> 00:59:05,239 time He's spend time out in the trenches with UFO investigators and bigfoot investigators and 751 00:59:05,400 --> 00:59:10,079 I think ghost hunters and wrote a book about his adventures. And he's a 752 00:59:10,199 --> 00:59:15,920 he's a Wisconsin writer. So he put together this conference and true to his 753 00:59:15,000 --> 00:59:20,400 book, he had people from all you know, he had cryptozoologists, he 754 00:59:20,440 --> 00:59:23,559 had lockness, monster people, bigfoot people, zombie people. It was a 755 00:59:23,679 --> 00:59:30,119 really entertaining It was a really entertaining day and with a lot of really fun 756 00:59:30,159 --> 00:59:31,320 people involved, and it had a little bit, you know, it had 757 00:59:31,360 --> 00:59:35,800 a little bit of something for everyone. But I gave one of the talks 758 00:59:35,800 --> 00:59:38,760 in the UFO series, and then Don Schmidt gave a talk. He was 759 00:59:38,840 --> 00:59:43,000 kind of the keynote address at the end of the evening. And this was 760 00:59:43,119 --> 00:59:49,599 just about a month after the Mexico City fiasco. So so Schmidt's talk was 761 00:59:50,000 --> 00:59:54,079 kind of he didn't make any outlandish claims, but he you know, he 762 00:59:54,159 --> 00:59:59,280 just kind of sounded very defensive and kind of angry about everything that had happened, 763 00:59:59,320 --> 01:00:02,960 and you know, probably has a good reason to feel that way. 764 01:00:04,840 --> 01:00:08,239 But the so, the organizer of this event, he's he's already talked with 765 01:00:08,280 --> 01:00:12,519 me about appearing at next year's event, which I'm I would will love to 766 01:00:12,559 --> 01:00:15,039 do. But he just emailed me this afternoon and he said, hey, 767 01:00:15,199 --> 01:00:19,880 Mark, I was talking with you know, one of the one of the 768 01:00:20,119 --> 01:00:24,000 people who had helped me to put together the first conference. We were talking 769 01:00:24,039 --> 01:00:29,599 about ideas for next year's conference, and we thought it would be fun if 770 01:00:29,599 --> 01:00:32,840 we could get you and Don Schmidt to agree to have a debate on stage. 771 01:00:34,320 --> 01:00:36,960 And he said, all of a sudden, today, out of the 772 01:00:36,960 --> 01:00:40,199 blue, I get an email from Don Schmidt saying, Hey, I'll appear 773 01:00:40,239 --> 01:00:44,639 at your next conference if I can have a debate on stage with Mark O'Connell. 774 01:00:45,079 --> 01:00:47,159 So I'm feeling very flattered. I've just risen up in the ranks. 775 01:00:47,199 --> 01:00:51,639 Now I'm going to be I'm gonna be on stage with Dan Schmidt, so 776 01:00:51,840 --> 01:00:54,639 I wrote back to Tea and I said, yes, I am very interested. 777 01:00:54,760 --> 01:00:58,880 I didn't give him, I didn't give him a complete yes, I 778 01:00:58,920 --> 01:01:02,480 will do it because I'd need to know more about you know, what the 779 01:01:02,519 --> 01:01:07,440 parameters of the debate will be and how it will be held. But you 780 01:01:07,480 --> 01:01:10,639 know, assuming we can work out all the details and everyone's an agreement on 781 01:01:10,679 --> 01:01:14,519 how how it'll happen, I think it would be a really I think it 782 01:01:14,519 --> 01:01:16,800 would be a really fun and interesting event. Now, so what is your 783 01:01:16,840 --> 01:01:22,719 take on Roswell in general? Besides let's just put the alien slide thing away 784 01:01:22,760 --> 01:01:25,840 for right now, gladly. Yeah, my take on Roswell is that it's 785 01:01:25,840 --> 01:01:34,719 a very entertaining story and it's possible that something, something very amazing happened, 786 01:01:35,679 --> 01:01:38,880 but nobody has ever been able to prove anything, and pretty much the ticking 787 01:01:38,960 --> 01:01:45,800 clock has run out. I think at the same time, if I would 788 01:01:45,840 --> 01:01:49,880 be hard pressed to prove that nothing happened in Roswell, you know, I 789 01:01:49,920 --> 01:01:52,039 don't think. I don't think Don Schmidt can prove that anything did happen, 790 01:01:52,599 --> 01:01:55,760 and I don't think I would be able to prove that anything didn't happen. 791 01:01:55,880 --> 01:02:00,800 So if that was the debate, it would be kind of boring and stalemate. 792 01:02:01,280 --> 01:02:06,320 If on the if if if it was a debate about who knows more 793 01:02:06,360 --> 01:02:08,679 about Roswell, Don Schmidt would win hands down. I mean, that's all 794 01:02:08,719 --> 01:02:12,519 the guy does. He knows all the names and dates and places, and 795 01:02:12,679 --> 01:02:16,280 you know, in incredible detail. UM I do not. You know, 796 01:02:16,360 --> 01:02:21,960 I'm not a student of that case, UM not any more than I need 797 01:02:22,000 --> 01:02:24,639 to be. So. So if so, if debate, the debate was 798 01:02:24,679 --> 01:02:28,760 either one of those two formats, I would have some problems with it. 799 01:02:28,880 --> 01:02:32,039 So I think if we can come up with some aspect of Roswell where you 800 01:02:32,079 --> 01:02:37,760 know, there's clearly defined that you can either be pro or con h you 801 01:02:37,800 --> 01:02:40,119 know, I think we can work something out. But so, but I'm 802 01:02:40,119 --> 01:02:44,880 giving you a much longer answer than you've asked for. I think I think 803 01:02:44,920 --> 01:02:47,000 it's a really fun story. It's a really entertaining story. But I don't 804 01:02:47,039 --> 01:02:51,960 know that it's anything more than that, because again, nobody's proven anything. 805 01:02:52,320 --> 01:02:54,559 They've been all these smoking guns over the years that have turned out to be 806 01:02:54,639 --> 01:03:00,079 nothing. UM, I just don't to me, there are a lot more 807 01:03:00,119 --> 01:03:04,880 interesting cases. You know, there's there's a war the Warren Minnesota case. 808 01:03:04,920 --> 01:03:09,079 I think I'm getting that right with the sheriff's deputy deputy who's whose squad car 809 01:03:09,519 --> 01:03:15,480 was essentially attacked by a UFO. And that police car is sitting in a 810 01:03:15,559 --> 01:03:20,920 museum in northern Minnesota with its with its dented hood and cracked windshield and burned 811 01:03:20,920 --> 01:03:25,519 out lights. That's that's physical evidence right there. Why isn't anybody paying any 812 01:03:25,519 --> 01:03:29,119 attention to that? See? For my money, that's a case that should 813 01:03:29,159 --> 01:03:35,639 be investigated, and yet it just sits there getting completely ignored. Um, 814 01:03:36,360 --> 01:03:38,360 I don't know, It's it's a funny business. It's hard to explain things 815 01:03:38,360 --> 01:03:40,679 like that. Yeah. Well, we're at the top of the hour, 816 01:03:40,880 --> 01:03:45,440 and generally speaking we take a break here, but I'm going to keep going. 817 01:03:45,519 --> 01:03:50,039 And this show generally at second hour by subscription, but the show is 818 01:03:50,039 --> 01:03:52,480 going to be free so to everyone. So we're just going to move on. 819 01:03:52,519 --> 01:03:57,440 We're on the line with Mark O'Connell, and if you want to call 820 01:03:57,480 --> 01:04:00,599 in at six O three nine six four h three zero, or if you 821 01:04:00,639 --> 01:04:04,480 want to ask a question, you can jump in the chat room at podcast 822 01:04:04,679 --> 01:04:09,239 UFO dot com. Hete Martin, Can I ask a question? Yeah? 823 01:04:09,320 --> 01:04:12,679 Sure, go ahead. I don't mean to derail the conversation because I love 824 01:04:12,719 --> 01:04:16,039 everything we've been talking about, but there's something that I want to ask this 825 01:04:16,079 --> 01:04:18,920 in my blog. It's actually I have kind of already asked you to my 826 01:04:18,960 --> 01:04:24,840 blog, but I'd love to ask you to your listeners too. My dad, 827 01:04:24,920 --> 01:04:30,719 who turns ninety in November and has been on six continents, has always 828 01:04:30,760 --> 01:04:32,800 wanted to get to the seventh continent, Antarctica, and a couple of weeks 829 01:04:32,840 --> 01:04:39,159 ago he surprised our entire family by announcing that he is taking me and four 830 01:04:39,199 --> 01:04:44,920 of my siblings to Antarctica this December. And it's going to be an amazing 831 01:04:44,960 --> 01:04:47,119 trip and I'm going to see things in the sky that I've never seen before, 832 01:04:47,400 --> 01:04:50,840 probably never will again. And I would love to know if there are 833 01:04:51,079 --> 01:04:56,119 any I mean, of course, we all know about Hitler's secret UFO base 834 01:04:56,400 --> 01:05:00,400 under the ice Tarctica. Of course I'll look for that, yeah, Um, 835 01:05:00,440 --> 01:05:05,199 But but I want to know if there are any other stories involving I 836 01:05:05,199 --> 01:05:09,000 mean, we'll we'll be in Buenos Aires, we will be in Tierra del 837 01:05:09,039 --> 01:05:14,679 Fuego. Um, if anybody knows of stories attached to those places and to 838 01:05:14,800 --> 01:05:17,159 Antarctic, I would love to hear them because I'd love to know more about 839 01:05:17,239 --> 01:05:21,280 what kinds of things are seen in that part of the world. Wow, 840 01:05:21,360 --> 01:05:27,360 that's that's really something Your father at ninety years old, that's amazing. Good 841 01:05:27,400 --> 01:05:30,639 for him. He's quite a guy. Yeah, he must be. He 842 01:05:30,760 --> 01:05:35,320 must be. Um Well, moving on about Roswell. The one thing that 843 01:05:35,840 --> 01:05:41,840 in that case in particular, that um it's I don't think it's a case 844 01:05:41,880 --> 01:05:45,639 that's going to die away at any anytime soon anyway. And you know, 845 01:05:45,679 --> 01:05:50,599 a lot of times myth does become reality. There's a lot of times where 846 01:05:51,159 --> 01:05:57,599 you'll see like a UFO show and it'll talk about something that you know that's 847 01:05:57,880 --> 01:06:01,320 was a myth and that they make it seemed like it really did happen, 848 01:06:01,400 --> 01:06:05,440 that type of thing. But the one thing that always puzzles me about Roswell 849 01:06:06,960 --> 01:06:13,199 the most is why on Earth would the Army Air Force say they captured a 850 01:06:13,239 --> 01:06:18,679 disc. I just can't understand any way that they could get that wrong before 851 01:06:18,679 --> 01:06:29,000 they publicized it. And so that alone makes that case I think really important 852 01:06:29,039 --> 01:06:33,199 and something I agree. There are a lot of really fascinating questions around it. 853 01:06:33,320 --> 01:06:38,800 Some of the questions I have are I like to look at the totality 854 01:06:38,920 --> 01:06:44,079 of the UFO phenomena and experience, and look at what are some of the 855 01:06:44,159 --> 01:06:49,639 other things that UFO witnesses have experienced. People have experienced missing time, people 856 01:06:49,760 --> 01:07:00,679 have experienced apparitions that seem to appear from other dimensions, that sort of appear 857 01:07:00,719 --> 01:07:06,000 and disappear at will in our dimensions. And if we consider all of those 858 01:07:06,039 --> 01:07:12,400 things as things that could apply to any UFO citing anywhere, then I always 859 01:07:12,480 --> 01:07:15,639 have to look at Roswell in terms of, well, even if they're dumb 860 01:07:15,760 --> 01:07:23,840 enough to fly halfway across the universe or transfer from another dimension and still not 861 01:07:23,920 --> 01:07:27,800 be able to nail the landing. Even if they're that dumb, which I 862 01:07:27,840 --> 01:07:32,320 have a hard time believing, why wouldn't they have a cleanup crew show up 863 01:07:32,360 --> 01:07:38,920 immediately and sweep up the debris so that mac Brazil didn't have anything to find. 864 01:07:39,559 --> 01:07:42,800 That, to me is just defies all belief. Why would there be 865 01:07:42,920 --> 01:07:46,639 any wreckage there at all? Or why wouldn't they manipulate late time so that 866 01:07:46,679 --> 01:07:50,519 the crash never happened. I mean, if you really want to start applying 867 01:07:50,599 --> 01:07:56,599 things that people have reported in other UFO cases, then suddenly you've got a 868 01:07:56,679 --> 01:08:00,320 million different ways for how that Roswell story could have gone, and you have 869 01:08:00,400 --> 01:08:04,800 to ask, why didn't it go any of those ways? Why instead are 870 01:08:04,840 --> 01:08:11,280 we supposed to believe that it actually unfolded in this really kind of pedestrian way 871 01:08:11,960 --> 01:08:18,039 dictated by our laws of logic and reality, when every other case kind of 872 01:08:18,199 --> 01:08:21,279 you know, plays out in a completely different way. That's kind of the 873 01:08:21,279 --> 01:08:26,680 big issue I have with Roswell. I understand part of that, a good 874 01:08:26,680 --> 01:08:30,439 part of that, and well, one thing I have to say about the 875 01:08:30,600 --> 01:08:35,800 crashing part of it, and is that no matter where, like to say, 876 01:08:35,800 --> 01:08:42,279 if we were traveling space, if we ever can get that advance without 877 01:08:42,359 --> 01:08:47,079 blowing everyone up, and we're traveling space, well, if we come into 878 01:08:47,199 --> 01:08:56,760 a relatively primitive society, a primitive technology, perhaps you know, people have 879 01:08:56,840 --> 01:09:02,199 speculated maybe they weren't ready for a radar bouncing off of their electromagnetic propulsion or 880 01:09:02,199 --> 01:09:06,199 whatever it was that could have possibly made them crash. Maybe there are things 881 01:09:08,119 --> 01:09:15,159 radio waves or just something that they wouldn't expect and have a natural defense against, 882 01:09:15,239 --> 01:09:17,800 or something like that. I mean, the whole thing is, the 883 01:09:17,840 --> 01:09:20,359 more you look into it, the more of a mystery it all becomes. 884 01:09:20,760 --> 01:09:25,079 And it's all speculation, and that's kind of why I like doing the show. 885 01:09:25,520 --> 01:09:30,640 It's a lot of ideas and speculation, getting to hear from other people 886 01:09:30,680 --> 01:09:35,800 like yourself and what their ideas are on the whole thing. So go ahead. 887 01:09:36,039 --> 01:09:39,720 I was just gonna say, I have a tagline on my blog that 888 01:09:39,800 --> 01:09:46,319 says, ambiguity is more convincing than certainty, and I really when it comes 889 01:09:46,359 --> 01:09:51,760 to UFOs, I really truly believe that ambiguity makes it more believable to me. 890 01:09:51,840 --> 01:09:56,840 I don't really know how to explain that because it's counterintuitive, but it 891 01:09:56,920 --> 01:09:59,680 sounds as though you kind of feel the same way on a certain level. 892 01:10:00,199 --> 01:10:04,159 Mmm. Have you ever looked the one thing that someone just brought it up 893 01:10:04,159 --> 01:10:11,760 on the message board that is interesting is also the memo that is being held 894 01:10:12,079 --> 01:10:15,760 in trying to remember who was holding it in their hand when they were handling 895 01:10:15,800 --> 01:10:23,039 the debris, Marcel Jesse. Marcel was holding a memo. Yeah, that 896 01:10:23,159 --> 01:10:28,359 was they've been trying to clear up, you know, through filters and through 897 01:10:28,399 --> 01:10:30,720 technology, trying to clear up what the memo was actually saying. Have you 898 01:10:30,760 --> 01:10:34,199 looked into that at all? That's interesting. I've only looked into it a 899 01:10:34,279 --> 01:10:41,560 little bit, and only insofar as I thought, it was a bit strange 900 01:10:41,720 --> 01:10:47,520 that the same people who were saying that enhancing the placard in the Roswell slides 901 01:10:48,359 --> 01:10:53,600 was kind of a dirty trick and couldn't be trusted, those very same people 902 01:10:54,279 --> 01:10:57,520 seemed to be turning around and saying, yeah, that memo held by, 903 01:10:59,279 --> 01:11:01,640 you know, help held held by? Was it the Ramy memo? That's 904 01:11:01,640 --> 01:11:04,439 what we're talking about, right, Yeah, these are the same people who 905 01:11:04,479 --> 01:11:08,279 are saying, well, well, we've digitally enhanced that memo and we can 906 01:11:08,319 --> 01:11:13,119 read exactly what it says. No, you can't have it both ways. 907 01:11:13,840 --> 01:11:16,039 If you can digitally enhance one to see what it really says, then you 908 01:11:16,039 --> 01:11:20,079 can digitally enhance the other. And likewise, if you can't digitally enhance one, 909 01:11:20,119 --> 01:11:25,479 then you probably can't digitally enhance the other. So my only contact with 910 01:11:25,520 --> 01:11:30,239 the Ramy memo just comes from that kind of that annoyance with me that of 911 01:11:30,279 --> 01:11:32,279 course I wrote about it in my blog. I just thought, and the 912 01:11:32,319 --> 01:11:36,439 words that apparently can be read on the Ramy memo don't really mean a whole 913 01:11:36,479 --> 01:11:41,159 lot desire to fall, so I don't put a whole lot of document. 914 01:11:41,960 --> 01:11:45,640 Yeah, it seems like they should be able to even enhance it as we 915 01:11:45,720 --> 01:11:49,039 go along. You know, wait, everything always gets better and better. 916 01:11:49,199 --> 01:11:54,520 Maybe eventually they'll be able to get the full text out of that. I 917 01:11:54,880 --> 01:11:58,680 wanted to I wanted to mention something that you were just talking about though about 918 01:12:00,039 --> 01:12:05,880 about how these storylines get reinforced in in popular culture. I've been thinking a 919 01:12:05,880 --> 01:12:11,760 lot about that lately because my wife and I have been watching The X Files 920 01:12:11,800 --> 01:12:14,840 all the way through. We're at the beginning of season three. Not neither 921 01:12:14,880 --> 01:12:16,680 one of us ever watched it in the nineties. I don't even know why. 922 01:12:16,920 --> 01:12:19,279 I don't even I don't have an excuse. I was a sci fi 923 01:12:19,399 --> 01:12:23,920 fiend. I have no idea why I didn't watch that show, but I 924 01:12:23,960 --> 01:12:28,000 didn't. So now we're watching it, and you know, starting a season 925 01:12:28,079 --> 01:12:31,960 three, we're really starting to get into the whole Alien, the whole disclosure 926 01:12:32,079 --> 01:12:39,359 conspiracy storyline, and it's a lot it's it's it's silly in a lot of 927 01:12:39,399 --> 01:12:42,960 ways, but it's also a lot of fun. It's good entertainment. But 928 01:12:43,039 --> 01:12:47,319 I've I've really been enjoying the way the writers of The X Files kind of 929 01:12:50,279 --> 01:12:58,800 kind of used those storylines, like the Roswell narrative kind of used them to 930 01:12:58,880 --> 01:13:02,720 their own ends to create their own mythology, but at the same time kind 931 01:13:02,760 --> 01:13:10,560 of validated the mythology surrounding the original story. You know, when Mulder says 932 01:13:10,600 --> 01:13:14,720 something about Roswell in an episode of The X Files, you know, twenty 933 01:13:14,720 --> 01:13:18,319 five or thirty million people are watching that, and how many of those people 934 01:13:18,319 --> 01:13:23,159 are saying, aha, Mulder believes that it must be true, you know, 935 01:13:23,239 --> 01:13:27,760 And so you've got this sort of circular reinforcement of the mythology while creating 936 01:13:28,000 --> 01:13:31,039 new mythology. It's I if I was a social scientist, I would be 937 01:13:31,079 --> 01:13:35,279 digging into this like crazy. I think it's really fascinating. And there's a 938 01:13:35,399 --> 01:13:43,680 really funny line in one of the season one episodes with Deep Throat and Mulder. 939 01:13:44,159 --> 01:13:46,319 They're talking about something to do with an alien crash and Mulder says, 940 01:13:46,319 --> 01:13:50,840 oh, Roswell, and Deep Throat just kind of gives him this really kind 941 01:13:50,840 --> 01:13:57,560 of dismissive look, and he says, he's like, oh, forget Roswell. 942 01:13:57,720 --> 01:14:01,119 Roswell's smoking mirrors. He goes, we have we have many many better 943 01:14:01,119 --> 01:14:08,720 crash sites than Roswell. That line just cracked me up, because you know, 944 01:14:09,640 --> 01:14:12,640 it's probably there's probably an elemented truth of that, even though it was 945 01:14:12,680 --> 01:14:16,680 just written as a line in a TV show. Right, right, let's 946 01:14:16,760 --> 01:14:24,079 talk about disclosure. What do you think about disclosure? I've said this before 947 01:14:24,079 --> 01:14:28,039 in my blog. It seems to me that if disclosure was really a thing, 948 01:14:28,199 --> 01:14:30,199 then it's up to the aliens to decide. The Aliens can show themselves 949 01:14:30,239 --> 01:14:33,880 to us anytime they want. They're not going to wait for a decision by 950 01:14:33,960 --> 01:14:39,359 any earthly government. That just makes no sense to me. And I actually 951 01:14:39,479 --> 01:14:43,359 I went to a talk by Richard Goland a couple of years ago to move 952 01:14:43,439 --> 01:14:45,800 on meeting and I asked him that. I just said, isn't it up 953 01:14:45,800 --> 01:14:46,720 to the aliens? And he just looked at me and he said, well, 954 01:14:46,760 --> 01:14:49,479 they haven't done it yet, have they, So apparently it's not. 955 01:14:50,359 --> 01:14:55,199 And I thought, well, that's that's not very sound logic. Just because 956 01:14:55,199 --> 01:14:59,119 they haven't yet doesn't mean they can't. It just means they haven't yet. 957 01:15:00,119 --> 01:15:02,680 So no, I'm not a big fan of disclosure. I think it's I 958 01:15:02,720 --> 01:15:11,119 think it's like I said, the aliens. Assuming the aliens exist, they 959 01:15:11,560 --> 01:15:14,520 hold all the cards here. Why would it be up to world governments who 960 01:15:14,520 --> 01:15:18,159 are essentially powerless against them? The aliens can do whatever they want whenever they 961 01:15:18,199 --> 01:15:25,079 want, so, yeah, it's in their hands. Yeah, I agree 962 01:15:25,159 --> 01:15:30,920 with you on that. I think that if they wanted to show themselves, 963 01:15:30,439 --> 01:15:34,720 they could definitely do that. And you know, and then but there may 964 01:15:34,760 --> 01:15:39,720 be many reasons why they don't. You know, maybe they don't want to 965 01:15:39,760 --> 01:15:47,399 interfere with the social growth of our society being left alone or who knows what. 966 01:15:48,640 --> 01:15:53,479 And you know, one thing I bring up all the time, who 967 01:15:53,520 --> 01:15:58,520 knows what they are? Anyway? You know a lot of people are seeing 968 01:15:58,560 --> 01:16:03,800 something definitely can't be explained. You know, people throughout numbers like five percent 969 01:16:03,880 --> 01:16:09,720 of UFOs are unexplainable or whatever it is you know, somewhere around there. 970 01:16:09,720 --> 01:16:14,800 But the fact if it was just one you know, to me means that, 971 01:16:15,039 --> 01:16:20,640 you know, we are being visited by something unexplainable and we may never 972 01:16:20,680 --> 01:16:26,199 even know what it is, and we may have a total wrong idea about 973 01:16:26,199 --> 01:16:31,079 what it is. Yeah, and I agree completely and I personally am completely 974 01:16:31,119 --> 01:16:34,479 comfortable with that, you know that. And again it goes back to my 975 01:16:34,520 --> 01:16:40,359 little catchphrase of ambiguities more convincing than certainty. I don't have to know what 976 01:16:40,399 --> 01:16:44,800 it is. And and some of that believe it has been reinforced by the 977 01:16:44,840 --> 01:16:49,159 work I've done researching the work of doctor j Allen Heineck for the biography I'm 978 01:16:49,199 --> 01:16:54,119 writing of him. Oh, I want to talk about that, but before 979 01:16:54,159 --> 01:16:57,239 we do, I just want to I want to get this question out because 980 01:16:57,399 --> 01:17:03,399 this gentleman asked a while back, what real life UFO based mythology have you 981 01:17:03,520 --> 01:17:09,600 used for inspiration in your own writings for TV, etc. Oh that's a 982 01:17:09,720 --> 01:17:15,279 that's a great question I have. Um, I have an unsold script. 983 01:17:16,159 --> 01:17:21,399 I never actually wrote the full script, but wrote a very detailed story treatment, 984 01:17:21,439 --> 01:17:26,319 and this was probably about i'm gonna say ten or twelve years ago. 985 01:17:28,079 --> 01:17:33,800 That actually had a lot to do with Area fifty one and the idea that 986 01:17:34,399 --> 01:17:42,199 the United States government is keeping captured alien spaceships under wraps at Area fifty one. 987 01:17:42,319 --> 01:17:45,760 So you know old story. It's it's been used a million times and 988 01:17:45,760 --> 01:17:49,079 it will be used a million times. Before this actually came about because I 989 01:17:49,199 --> 01:17:57,760 was I had been approached by a comic book company that had a They were 990 01:17:57,760 --> 01:18:01,359 looking at titles in their comics library to develop as feature films, and one 991 01:18:01,359 --> 01:18:09,119 of their comic titles had to do with an alien flying saucer at area fifty 992 01:18:09,119 --> 01:18:12,680 one and somebody who actually steals the flying saucer and gets away with it. 993 01:18:13,119 --> 01:18:15,560 So I can't even say it was an original story, but that was the 994 01:18:15,600 --> 01:18:18,880 comic book that they wanted me to development. As I said, I wrote 995 01:18:18,880 --> 01:18:27,079 a very very detailed story treatment. I'm going to guess it was probably close 996 01:18:27,119 --> 01:18:30,239 to twenty pages, which for a story is that's a lot of work. 997 01:18:30,880 --> 01:18:33,960 The comic book company never went ahead with it, and because it was based 998 01:18:34,000 --> 01:18:39,079 on their property, it wasn't something that I could go shop around to anyone 999 01:18:39,119 --> 01:18:42,399 else. So unfortunately, when they decided not to move ahead with the project, 1000 01:18:42,439 --> 01:18:45,800 that was the end of it. But having said that, though, 1001 01:18:45,039 --> 01:18:48,600 there are still little bits and pieces of it that were my original work that 1002 01:18:48,640 --> 01:18:55,399 I added to their story that of course I still have you know on file 1003 01:18:55,439 --> 01:18:59,680 in my file cabinet and kicking around in my brain, and it's always possible 1004 01:18:59,680 --> 01:19:03,239 that a little bit of that material could still work its way into something you 1005 01:19:03,319 --> 01:19:08,520 just never know. And Okay, so let's move back into what you were 1006 01:19:08,520 --> 01:19:13,359 just talking about before I pose that question. You are writing a biography on 1007 01:19:13,439 --> 01:19:19,359 Jay Alan Heinek. Yeah, and um, what h can you tell us 1008 01:19:19,359 --> 01:19:25,279 about it and what got you started. I'm always happy to talk about it. 1009 01:19:25,279 --> 01:19:30,000 It's it's it's the biggest writing project I've ever done, and I'm the 1010 01:19:30,079 --> 01:19:33,920 most difficult by far, but also I think the most rewarding. Um. 1011 01:19:34,159 --> 01:19:39,720 This all goes back to again four years ago, when I started writing my 1012 01:19:39,800 --> 01:19:45,119 blog High Strangeness um UM. My wife at the time was working in Chicago, 1013 01:19:45,159 --> 01:19:49,119 so we spent a lot of time in Chicago, not just we you 1014 01:19:49,159 --> 01:19:54,560 know, sort of splitting our time between southern Wisconsin and Chicago. So um 1015 01:19:54,720 --> 01:19:57,479 again, when I was sort of fishing around for material to write about it 1016 01:19:57,479 --> 01:20:01,399 in the blog, I also came across the website for KUFOS, the Jail 1017 01:20:01,439 --> 01:20:05,279 and Heineck Center for UFO Studies, and I was very intrigued to find that 1018 01:20:05,520 --> 01:20:12,079 the center was literally within five miles of our apartment in Chicago. I got 1019 01:20:12,159 --> 01:20:17,079 very excited about that and contacted their scientific director, doctor Mark Rohdiger, and 1020 01:20:17,760 --> 01:20:21,640 by the time he and I talked the the info on the website was actually 1021 01:20:21,680 --> 01:20:30,439 obsolete. They had they had closed down their office and had actually moved essentially 1022 01:20:30,479 --> 01:20:34,840 moved what was left of the center's records and resources into a couple members basements 1023 01:20:34,840 --> 01:20:39,039 throughout Chicago. So doctor Rhodiger, Mark Rhdiger, had a whole lot of 1024 01:20:39,119 --> 01:20:42,800 the archives in his basement, and he said, well, you know, 1025 01:20:42,840 --> 01:20:45,840 the officers don't exist anymore, but you you, you know, you'd be 1026 01:20:45,880 --> 01:20:48,399 more than welcome to come over to my house and you know, poke around 1027 01:20:48,439 --> 01:20:51,119 in the basement and you know, see if anything there catches your interests. 1028 01:20:51,520 --> 01:20:58,800 So I was thrilled to get that invitation. Had always been interested in Heineck 1029 01:20:59,600 --> 01:21:02,880 and work, um, but had never really you know, only really knew 1030 01:21:02,920 --> 01:21:11,079 what I had read in books um. And so when I started visiting Kufos 1031 01:21:11,119 --> 01:21:14,880 just again just looking for material, fun stories to write about it in my 1032 01:21:14,920 --> 01:21:16,840 blog, I got to know Mark a little and after a couple of visits, 1033 01:21:16,840 --> 01:21:21,000 he mentioned that they had always been interested in finding a writer, um 1034 01:21:21,199 --> 01:21:27,279 to to write the definitive, definitive account of doctor Heineck's career. And I 1035 01:21:27,319 --> 01:21:29,439 just said, well, I would love to do that. I just you 1036 01:21:29,479 --> 01:21:31,760 know, I just jumped on it. I said I would I would love 1037 01:21:31,840 --> 01:21:35,439 to be that writer. And he said, well, you know, why 1038 01:21:35,479 --> 01:21:40,279 don't you give it a try. So I started. I started working right 1039 01:21:40,319 --> 01:21:45,880 then and there, and um uh, Mark read a lot of my initial 1040 01:21:45,159 --> 01:21:53,399 drafts of chapters, and and Um has been has been happy with the direction 1041 01:21:53,479 --> 01:21:58,680 the book is going, and has also been an incredible resource for me, 1042 01:21:58,920 --> 01:22:01,840 as as you know, is a fact checker. You know, he clears 1043 01:22:01,960 --> 01:22:05,399 up things that I don't get quite right. He points me in directions to 1044 01:22:05,479 --> 01:22:10,760 do, you know, new research on things. So the research has been 1045 01:22:10,800 --> 01:22:15,039 really fascinating, and it's been helped by the fact that not only are Heineck's 1046 01:22:15,319 --> 01:22:25,239 cupos files in the Chicago area in these people's basements, but Heineck was also 1047 01:22:25,399 --> 01:22:30,840 the chairman of the astronomy department at Northwestern University from nineteen sixty until his retirement 1048 01:22:30,920 --> 01:22:35,119 in the early eighties, so there is a wealth of material in the Northwestern 1049 01:22:35,239 --> 01:22:42,399 University archives. Heineck also went to school he was born and raised in Chicago 1050 01:22:42,720 --> 01:22:45,680 and went to school at the University of Chicago. There is a wealth of 1051 01:22:45,800 --> 01:22:51,439 archival material in the University of Chicago archives. So and he did his graduate 1052 01:22:51,439 --> 01:22:57,399 work at Yurkey's Observatory in southern Wisconsin, about a half an hour from where 1053 01:22:57,439 --> 01:23:01,720 I live. So it just turned out that all of these resources dealing with 1054 01:23:01,800 --> 01:23:06,520 Heineck's career, we're really at my fingertips, and I just went nuts with 1055 01:23:06,600 --> 01:23:11,920 the research. So I've just been I've been researching and writing for a while. 1056 01:23:12,399 --> 01:23:15,479 The big news is that just about three weeks ago, I signed with 1057 01:23:15,520 --> 01:23:20,560 a literary agent who is now going to start shopping the book project around to 1058 01:23:20,680 --> 01:23:28,359 publishers. And we were we want to pitch this book as not just a 1059 01:23:28,479 --> 01:23:32,439 Ufoe book. We want to sell it to a publisher as a book that 1060 01:23:32,600 --> 01:23:38,720 also is um that also kind appeal to a mainstream audience. And if you 1061 01:23:38,760 --> 01:23:42,479 look at the kind of audience that The X Files brings in and the kind 1062 01:23:42,520 --> 01:23:46,039 of audiences that shows like Hanger One and Ancient Aliens bring in, it's not 1063 01:23:46,119 --> 01:23:48,840 too big of a stress to say that, you know, this isn't just 1064 01:23:48,920 --> 01:23:55,199 a niche market. This is a topic that is of interest to a whole 1065 01:23:55,359 --> 01:23:58,640 lot of people, and there is a there is a huge audience. So 1066 01:23:58,680 --> 01:24:01,960 we think, will we think can be successful in pitching this to you know, 1067 01:24:02,119 --> 01:24:05,560 to a big publisher and you know, hopefully making it a big book. 1068 01:24:06,600 --> 01:24:11,720 Wow. You know, he was such a fascinating man. You know, 1069 01:24:11,720 --> 01:24:16,319 if you really think about his involvement with a Project Blue Book and how 1070 01:24:16,399 --> 01:24:23,239 he was out there to try to debunk you know everything swamp his swamp gas 1071 01:24:23,560 --> 01:24:29,399 talk and all that, and then you know he comes over to the UFO 1072 01:24:29,479 --> 01:24:34,479 side, you know, after which I think is is really amazing and um, 1073 01:24:34,800 --> 01:24:41,079 you know that he spent the last part of his life of just saying, 1074 01:24:41,079 --> 01:24:43,479 hey, you know, something is going on, and you know, 1075 01:24:43,600 --> 01:24:46,920 really curious about the subject it is. It's a great story. He's he 1076 01:24:47,000 --> 01:24:50,960 was a complicated man. I've learned so much since I've done this research, 1077 01:24:51,000 --> 01:24:56,560 because, as I mentioned before, what little I knew of Heineck was just 1078 01:24:56,680 --> 01:25:00,199 stuff I had read in UFO books. And let's let's be honest, some 1079 01:25:00,279 --> 01:25:05,920 of those UFO books are biased. Some of them simply repeat information that's already 1080 01:25:05,960 --> 01:25:13,640 been you know, that's already been written in other formats and other other media. 1081 01:25:13,880 --> 01:25:16,479 So you know, the end result is, over time, you know, 1082 01:25:16,520 --> 01:25:19,800 the sort of the same stories get told and retold and repeated, and 1083 01:25:20,760 --> 01:25:27,239 those stories aren't always accurate, but they sort of become sort of the conventional 1084 01:25:27,279 --> 01:25:30,239 wisdom of who this guy was and what his work represented. So it's been 1085 01:25:30,279 --> 01:25:34,399 a huge surprise to me and really a huge adventure to find out that his 1086 01:25:34,520 --> 01:25:38,760 work is. You know, it's it's a much more complicated story than I 1087 01:25:38,920 --> 01:25:42,039 than I would have imagined. You know, there's there's a lot of gray 1088 01:25:42,079 --> 01:25:45,520 area. He made a lot of mistakes, he did things he regretted. 1089 01:25:45,720 --> 01:25:48,560 Um, you know, he should have changed his mind sooner, but he 1090 01:25:48,600 --> 01:25:53,560 actually did start changing his mind a lot sooner than most people think. So, 1091 01:25:53,720 --> 01:25:56,119 you know, there's a there's a really good story there, and I 1092 01:25:56,159 --> 01:25:58,439 think people are going to like it a lot. The title of the book 1093 01:25:58,600 --> 01:26:02,319 is The Close Encounters Man, How doctor jail and Heineck made it okay for 1094 01:26:02,359 --> 01:26:08,239 America to believe in UFOs because because the thrust of the book is that because 1095 01:26:08,239 --> 01:26:13,079 of his work, we now live in a world. Even though he died 1096 01:26:13,119 --> 01:26:15,079 in nineteen eighty six, he's the man's been gone a very long time, 1097 01:26:15,119 --> 01:26:21,279 but his work planted a seed that has just bloomed into you could easily call 1098 01:26:21,319 --> 01:26:26,000 it a UFO industry. But more than that, it's it's it's developed into 1099 01:26:26,680 --> 01:26:30,359 you know, a set of cultural beliefs. Everybody knows what a close encounter 1100 01:26:30,600 --> 01:26:35,079 is. And Heineck thought of that terminology, you know, and Spielberg used 1101 01:26:35,079 --> 01:26:39,159 it for his movie, and it's part of our cultural you know, it's 1102 01:26:39,199 --> 01:26:43,720 it's a cultural reference. Point now. So, like I say, I 1103 01:26:43,760 --> 01:26:45,600 think, I think I have a good story to tell and I'm and I'm 1104 01:26:45,680 --> 01:26:49,640 very excited about the book. Wow. Uh yeah, I know someone that 1105 01:26:49,720 --> 01:26:56,920 knew him personally. Someone just mentioned on the message board Bray Stamford has Actually 1106 01:26:56,960 --> 01:27:00,479 he does listen to the show quite a bit. We'll probably listen to this 1107 01:27:00,479 --> 01:27:02,520 show in particular. I don't know if he's listening now or not, but 1108 01:27:02,840 --> 01:27:08,560 Ray Stamford is a good resource probably to get some information from. I would 1109 01:27:08,560 --> 01:27:13,079 love to talk with him. Yeah, I can set all that up easily. 1110 01:27:13,399 --> 01:27:17,439 And so you gave me a couple of fun questions that I could ask 1111 01:27:17,479 --> 01:27:24,560 you. And why are and I'm gonna I want to know this one? 1112 01:27:24,880 --> 01:27:32,239 Why are you followgists so grumpy and irritable? I love that one. Grumpy 1113 01:27:32,319 --> 01:27:36,800 is too strong a word. I shouldn't have used the word grumpy because when 1114 01:27:36,840 --> 01:27:42,039 I was really what I was really getting at was And again this goes back 1115 01:27:42,079 --> 01:27:45,560 to when I first started the blog four years ago, and I started reading 1116 01:27:45,560 --> 01:27:50,319 other people's blogs and just found that, um, like I said, there 1117 01:27:50,319 --> 01:27:56,159 were an awful lot of very serious UFO scholars who were doing very serious work 1118 01:27:56,159 --> 01:28:00,880 and very serious writing. And I wanted to try to find a way to 1119 01:28:00,920 --> 01:28:03,760 stand out from that in my own way. So to me, I just 1120 01:28:03,760 --> 01:28:06,640 sort of tended to look at these serious writers as you know, maybe a 1121 01:28:06,640 --> 01:28:12,319 little grumpy sometimes and maybe maybe a little set in their ways. It's probably 1122 01:28:12,520 --> 01:28:15,640 it's it's probably unfair. As I say, grumpy is probably too strong a 1123 01:28:15,680 --> 01:28:19,079 word. But having said that, I do think that there is U. 1124 01:28:21,079 --> 01:28:30,880 It's interesting to me how many uphologists have a hard time looking at the phenomenon 1125 01:28:31,079 --> 01:28:36,359 with any sort of sense of humor, because it does get pretty strange sometimes 1126 01:28:36,399 --> 01:28:42,159 and sometimes it's kind of funny. How strange it gets, you know, 1127 01:28:42,319 --> 01:28:45,840 kind of is the point where it just defies, it defies belief, how 1128 01:28:45,880 --> 01:28:48,880 strange things get. And I think there are things in this world, there 1129 01:28:48,920 --> 01:28:54,640 are things in the U in UFO world that can be pretty funny. And 1130 01:28:54,680 --> 01:28:58,319 I was very surprised to find that not many people seem to recognize that or 1131 01:28:58,359 --> 01:29:02,279 appreciate that. So that's kind of what I've set out to illuminate in my 1132 01:29:02,359 --> 01:29:08,359 work. I like that, I do. I have brought up a number 1133 01:29:08,359 --> 01:29:14,399 of times that a lot of times people do get sort of tarnished, you 1134 01:29:14,439 --> 01:29:16,840 know. I talked to a number of people that have been in the field 1135 01:29:16,840 --> 01:29:20,239 for a long time, and you know, a lot of times they just 1136 01:29:20,279 --> 01:29:23,159 say, you know, I've had it. You know, nothing's going to 1137 01:29:23,319 --> 01:29:30,359 change. Are you there? I think we may have lost Mark. I'm 1138 01:29:30,399 --> 01:29:35,960 going to try to get him back. Mark. You there. I'm sorry, 1139 01:29:36,000 --> 01:29:41,000 something happened. I accidentally cut us off. I'm here. You're back. 1140 01:29:41,079 --> 01:29:43,199 Okay, You're going to have to move up to your mic. It 1141 01:29:43,279 --> 01:29:45,279 can just barely hear you. Okay, yeah, that there you are. 1142 01:29:45,520 --> 01:29:50,239 Okay, I forgot what I was babbling about, but I'm sorry. No, 1143 01:29:50,239 --> 01:29:56,359 no, no. Basically that a lot of upologists get sort of burnt 1144 01:29:56,399 --> 01:30:00,439 out. I guess that might be the phrase. You know. They they 1145 01:30:00,760 --> 01:30:06,079 are not seeing anything happen within many years, any changes. Um So I 1146 01:30:06,319 --> 01:30:12,079 can understand that, yeah, and that you know and that and I've only 1147 01:30:12,079 --> 01:30:14,439 been this. I've only been in this for four years, and I can 1148 01:30:14,520 --> 01:30:17,399 already kind of feel some of that myself. It does get very it does 1149 01:30:17,399 --> 01:30:25,880 get very frustrating when you feel as though every we we we as a group 1150 01:30:26,319 --> 01:30:30,159 upologists, people who are interested in the field, have tried so many different 1151 01:30:30,159 --> 01:30:35,439 approaches to try to get a handle on on what this phenomenon is and what 1152 01:30:35,520 --> 01:30:42,560 it means and seem to come up short every with every attempt. It does 1153 01:30:42,880 --> 01:30:45,479 definitely lead to a sense of frustration. What it's like, What have we 1154 01:30:45,520 --> 01:30:50,720 not thought of? What haven't we tried? And boy, I just don't 1155 01:30:50,720 --> 01:30:56,119 know. I don't know what the answer is to that, right same here. 1156 01:30:56,680 --> 01:31:00,760 One of your other funny questions here was what is your favorite level at 1157 01:31:00,800 --> 01:31:06,680 the Dulca underground Base? And we've talked about that a number of times on 1158 01:31:06,720 --> 01:31:12,960 this show. You know basically that it was just disinformation, Paul bennowit's disinformation, 1159 01:31:13,840 --> 01:31:16,199 but that you know, going back to the myth that becomes reality. 1160 01:31:16,199 --> 01:31:21,520 There's a lot of people out there that still think there's underground there's an underground 1161 01:31:21,520 --> 01:31:26,319 base there with aliens. Well, thanks, Yeah, And I first came 1162 01:31:26,359 --> 01:31:31,439 across this. This happened right when I started writing the blog soum or summer 1163 01:31:31,479 --> 01:31:35,880 and fall of twenty eleven. There's actually a very a very small, but 1164 01:31:36,079 --> 01:31:42,319 popular UFO conference not far from here. It's called the Burlington Vortex Conference. 1165 01:31:42,640 --> 01:31:45,039 So it's not just UFOs. There is a vortex in the woods outside of 1166 01:31:45,079 --> 01:31:49,479 this town of Burlington, Wisconsin. So I went to this again looking for 1167 01:31:49,600 --> 01:31:53,840 material for my blog, and I actually ended up writing an article about it 1168 01:31:53,880 --> 01:31:58,680 for Milwaukee Magazine. But I met a young couple there who were fascinated with 1169 01:31:58,760 --> 01:32:01,600 Dulca base and they I had never heard of it before, and they started 1170 01:32:01,640 --> 01:32:06,479 telling me about it, and man, they were dead serious. They were 1171 01:32:06,520 --> 01:32:10,359 like they believed every word of it. Oh my god, Yes, there 1172 01:32:10,439 --> 01:32:13,720 the grays live on this level and the reptoids live on that level, and 1173 01:32:14,319 --> 01:32:16,520 you know, and the mantis is hate the reptoids, and the reptoids hate 1174 01:32:16,560 --> 01:32:20,039 the Grays, and I was just I was kind of blown away. I 1175 01:32:20,479 --> 01:32:30,000 had I was not prepared for that deep level of mythology, and to find 1176 01:32:30,039 --> 01:32:32,119 that this really is a thing, this is a thing that a lot of 1177 01:32:32,119 --> 01:32:36,119 people say is true, was just kind of a stunner for me. I 1178 01:32:36,159 --> 01:32:40,680 also had I want to tell this story too, because it's kind of along 1179 01:32:40,680 --> 01:32:46,600 those same lines where you have you really have to wonder where what makes people 1180 01:32:46,640 --> 01:32:50,520 believe certain things and where your own belief system kind of comes up short, 1181 01:32:50,960 --> 01:32:54,880 I had a really fascinating case for moof On a couple of years ago. 1182 01:32:55,640 --> 01:33:01,079 It was a young a college student who had been home for home for summer 1183 01:33:01,159 --> 01:33:05,319 break, and he was staying at his home folkshouse, and he was driving 1184 01:33:05,359 --> 01:33:09,800 home from one night in the late at night, around midnight, and he 1185 01:33:09,840 --> 01:33:13,560 saw this object fly across the highway in front of him. It was glowing 1186 01:33:13,600 --> 01:33:17,279 blue. It was about the size of a refrigerator. It zoomed across the 1187 01:33:17,359 --> 01:33:21,319 highway about three feet off the ground, and as it flashed past the front 1188 01:33:21,319 --> 01:33:27,760 of his car, he could have sworn that his dashlights flickered. Okay, 1189 01:33:27,760 --> 01:33:30,840 So technically that makes it a close encounter of the second kind, right, 1190 01:33:30,840 --> 01:33:35,560 because their physical effects on the environment. So by the time they reported this 1191 01:33:36,000 --> 01:33:41,000 and I was able to meet with the family, their son had already gone 1192 01:33:41,000 --> 01:33:44,079 back to I think it was, I can't remember it was. It was 1193 01:33:44,079 --> 01:33:45,760 out of state. He had gone back to college out of state, so 1194 01:33:45,800 --> 01:33:49,239 I couldn't talk to him. But I had a really fascinating talk with the 1195 01:33:49,279 --> 01:33:53,399 parents and they told me the whole story from their point of view about you 1196 01:33:53,439 --> 01:33:57,039 know, how their son called and called them immediately, and they could tell 1197 01:33:57,039 --> 01:34:00,199 how shaken up he was, and they were sure he wasn't making this up. 1198 01:34:00,720 --> 01:34:03,840 But as we talked, it turned out that this family has had a 1199 01:34:03,880 --> 01:34:08,119 whole lot of really strange experiences, some of them centered on the house. 1200 01:34:08,159 --> 01:34:11,640 They live in a very old house, and they were telling me about how 1201 01:34:11,680 --> 01:34:14,760 they think they have shadow people living in their house. That was a new 1202 01:34:14,760 --> 01:34:17,640 one to me. I'd never heard of shadow people. But then at some 1203 01:34:17,720 --> 01:34:23,319 point in the conversation the father said, hey, there's there's something I want 1204 01:34:23,319 --> 01:34:28,520 to show you. I've never shown this to anyone. It was it was 1205 01:34:28,600 --> 01:34:31,199 part of their family history, and it was sort of sensitive because it revealed 1206 01:34:31,680 --> 01:34:36,000 it revealed some private life details of some of their relatives that they wanted to 1207 01:34:36,079 --> 01:34:41,119 keep private. So they never wanted to share this letter with anyone but the 1208 01:34:41,159 --> 01:34:44,239 guy. But he shared it with me and said, you know, please, 1209 01:34:44,319 --> 01:34:47,800 don't you know, don't like broadcast this everywhere, but I'd like to 1210 01:34:47,840 --> 01:34:50,920 know what you think of it. And it was a letter from a friend 1211 01:34:50,920 --> 01:34:57,520 of the family to a family member from nineteen fifty from Pendleton Air Fort. 1212 01:34:57,600 --> 01:35:02,520 I know what at Pendleton, Okay, I'm blanking on that now, but 1213 01:35:02,560 --> 01:35:09,359 it was. It was an airbase in California, and the person writing the 1214 01:35:09,479 --> 01:35:14,239 letter was had been a serviceman in nineteen fifty and told this very long it 1215 01:35:14,319 --> 01:35:17,239 was like ten sheets of paper, this very long story about how he and 1216 01:35:18,239 --> 01:35:26,279 he and his platoon had been exposed to a genuine flying saucer, and they 1217 01:35:26,319 --> 01:35:30,079 had been exposed to all this information about how the flying saucer worked and who 1218 01:35:30,119 --> 01:35:33,000 piloted it and where it came from. And it was in very explicit detail, 1219 01:35:33,039 --> 01:35:38,319 of very precise wording in this letter. And I was just fascinated by 1220 01:35:38,359 --> 01:35:41,640 this and that you know, these folks had no idea what it meant. 1221 01:35:41,640 --> 01:35:44,640 They just said, you know, we've we've never been able to figure out 1222 01:35:45,000 --> 01:35:47,880 is this letter for real? Is it a joke? And I said, 1223 01:35:47,920 --> 01:35:51,439 well, And so they asked me if I had any information, and I 1224 01:35:51,439 --> 01:35:55,399 said, well, there's somebody I can talk to who I think might be 1225 01:35:55,439 --> 01:35:59,119 able to shed some light on this if you'll let me. So I talked 1226 01:35:59,159 --> 01:36:02,439 with I went back to my main source, doctor Mark Rodiger at the Center 1227 01:36:02,439 --> 01:36:06,560 for UFO Studies, and I just started reading him just a couple of little 1228 01:36:06,560 --> 01:36:10,520 passages from this letter, just to give a sort of a flavor of the 1229 01:36:10,600 --> 01:36:13,439 detail in this and he said, hang on a minute, I know what 1230 01:36:13,520 --> 01:36:15,479 that is. And he went to a book shelf and he got a book 1231 01:36:15,479 --> 01:36:18,359 off the shelf, and he came back to the phone and he flipped open 1232 01:36:18,399 --> 01:36:23,680 this book, and he started reading back to me word for word everything that 1233 01:36:23,800 --> 01:36:28,199 was in this letter that these people had, And it turned out the book 1234 01:36:28,199 --> 01:36:34,520 he was reading from was Frank Scully's nineteen fifty UFO book in which Scully unleashed 1235 01:36:34,600 --> 01:36:41,600 the concept of the flying saucer crash and the captive flying saucer and alien corpses. 1236 01:36:42,439 --> 01:36:46,520 And you know, that was a very elaborate and detailed hoax. And 1237 01:36:46,640 --> 01:36:53,479 here, somehow these people in Wisconsin had that very same story written in a 1238 01:36:53,560 --> 01:36:56,760 personal letter from a friend of the family to a member of their family. 1239 01:36:57,680 --> 01:37:00,960 How do you account for that? Mark and I just had a really interesting 1240 01:37:00,000 --> 01:37:04,760 conversation trying to figure out, you know, what does all this mean? 1241 01:37:04,800 --> 01:37:11,399 And we finally decided that it must be some sort of psychologic of some sort 1242 01:37:11,399 --> 01:37:16,960 of psy ops that the military was doing to try to sort of inoculate us 1243 01:37:17,000 --> 01:37:27,520 against fear of aliens from other worlds by sort of selectively showing different people things 1244 01:37:27,640 --> 01:37:31,399 that they would believe represented aliens from another world. Whether they did or not 1245 01:37:31,520 --> 01:37:35,079 didn't matter, as long as they believed that it did. And then that 1246 01:37:35,199 --> 01:37:40,199 story would just sort of spread out through people sending these letters to friends and 1247 01:37:40,279 --> 01:37:44,520 things. So that when you know, when the aliens finally did appear, 1248 01:37:45,079 --> 01:37:46,880 we would all be sort of prepared for it. On a certain level, 1249 01:37:47,760 --> 01:37:50,479 that theory makes as much sense as anything else. It was one of the 1250 01:37:50,520 --> 01:37:55,840 strangest, one of the strange experiences I've had as a move On investigator. 1251 01:37:56,600 --> 01:37:59,000 It still makes me scratch my head. I just don't know what to make 1252 01:37:59,039 --> 01:38:01,640 of it. But again, it goes back to that whole issue of of 1253 01:38:01,720 --> 01:38:06,039 myth making and how do you know where the myth starts and where you know 1254 01:38:06,279 --> 01:38:10,319 how much of it is that, how much of it is the person's actual 1255 01:38:10,359 --> 01:38:13,840 experience, and how much of it has been sort of added on over the 1256 01:38:13,920 --> 01:38:18,680 years. Who knows. Wow, I wonder if anyone out there has ever 1257 01:38:18,760 --> 01:38:25,159 heard about a similar, similar letter written, or if this was just you 1258 01:38:25,199 --> 01:38:30,159 know, one person's idea of hoaxing their family, you know, I mean, 1259 01:38:30,239 --> 01:38:33,920 yeah, today it's YouTube, right, you're exactly right. Well, 1260 01:38:33,960 --> 01:38:38,319 that was one of the things Mark and I talked about the person who wrote 1261 01:38:38,319 --> 01:38:43,560 the letter. Was that person being hoaxed or was that person part of the 1262 01:38:43,600 --> 01:38:46,199 hoax? You know? I mean, there's so many ways you can go 1263 01:38:46,239 --> 01:38:49,000 with it, and there's so many different levels to the story. It can 1264 01:38:49,079 --> 01:38:53,880 kind of drive you nuts. Did you say this was nineteen fifty two? 1265 01:38:55,760 --> 01:38:58,920 Well, I know, Scott, Oh yeah, the letter was dated nineteen 1266 01:38:58,960 --> 01:39:01,359 fifty two. That's great. Gully's book was published in nineteen fifty so this 1267 01:39:01,439 --> 01:39:05,359 was two years after the book came out, and that's when the most sightings 1268 01:39:05,960 --> 01:39:11,960 were seen in this whole country during that time, nineteen fifty two. Yeah, 1269 01:39:11,960 --> 01:39:15,239 which we now know is because of the CIA and their YouTube spipeplane. 1270 01:39:15,920 --> 01:39:20,079 Well there is I think we did talk about. Yeah, at least according 1271 01:39:20,079 --> 01:39:27,840 to them. Yeah. Yeah, I'm going to read another one of one 1272 01:39:27,880 --> 01:39:30,319 of your questions that I thought was kind of humorous, and that is, 1273 01:39:30,560 --> 01:39:39,399 should have Kenneth Arnold kept his lips sealed? Well, yeah, that's something 1274 01:39:39,439 --> 01:39:42,640 I think about since I've been working on this book, because you know, 1275 01:39:42,680 --> 01:39:46,760 as we all know it all it all goes back to Kenneth Arnold in his 1276 01:39:47,960 --> 01:39:55,439 plane flying over the Cascade Mountains and he saw those nine crescent shaped, crescent 1277 01:39:55,520 --> 01:39:59,880 shaped things flying through the air in a straight line among the mountain peaks. 1278 01:40:00,680 --> 01:40:05,000 I don't know, it's a fascinating story and I think, I guess to 1279 01:40:05,039 --> 01:40:08,840 give you a serious answer, I think if it hadn't been him, it 1280 01:40:08,880 --> 01:40:13,520 would have been somebody else, probably within that same historical time period, because 1281 01:40:13,760 --> 01:40:16,800 because I have a feeling that that was just sort of the right time for 1282 01:40:16,880 --> 01:40:20,520 this phenomena to present itself to us. I don't know why I say that. 1283 01:40:20,600 --> 01:40:25,319 I just have kind of a gut feeling that if it hadn't been Kenneth 1284 01:40:25,439 --> 01:40:28,199 Arnold, it would have been somebody else, because that was the time it 1285 01:40:28,239 --> 01:40:30,920 had to happen. But you know, then Kenneth Arnold gets involved in that 1286 01:40:30,960 --> 01:40:38,920 whole Morey Island thing where he suddenly becomes, you know, amateur UFO investigator 1287 01:40:39,560 --> 01:40:43,600 and seems to be dealing with, you know, con men who are several 1288 01:40:43,680 --> 01:40:48,720 pay scales above him. That story, that story really makes me wonder about 1289 01:40:48,760 --> 01:40:51,560 Kenneth Arnold. That story makes me wish he had kind of kept his app 1290 01:40:51,600 --> 01:40:58,359 shut. There's a I think I read something or briefly or someone sent me 1291 01:40:58,479 --> 01:41:03,079 something that Ari Island is now considered a hoax. I don't know if I 1292 01:41:03,199 --> 01:41:06,560 could just be I'm just saying that. I don't know if that's true or 1293 01:41:06,600 --> 01:41:14,000 not. But you know that that was quite a story. Unfortunately. You 1294 01:41:14,039 --> 01:41:16,600 know, the question of whether the question of whether the case itself was a 1295 01:41:16,640 --> 01:41:21,880 hoax or it started out as something genuine but then it got sort of turned 1296 01:41:21,920 --> 01:41:28,960 into a hoax because of some misin disinformation campaign. You know, you kind 1297 01:41:28,960 --> 01:41:30,039 of have to look at it. You kind of have to at least consider 1298 01:41:30,079 --> 01:41:32,880 that possibility as well. I think, yeah. I mean there was a 1299 01:41:32,920 --> 01:41:39,279 crash also to a pilot, and I think it was air Force people, 1300 01:41:39,359 --> 01:41:44,319 wasn't it, that were investigating and had some of the so called evidence with 1301 01:41:44,399 --> 01:41:47,760 them in a plane that crashed. I'm not sure if I can't remember if 1302 01:41:47,760 --> 01:41:51,640 they were air force people, but I think they weren't government people at any 1303 01:41:51,720 --> 01:41:57,359 rate. Yeah, some agency, right, So what do you think? 1304 01:41:57,560 --> 01:42:01,560 What is your idea of the best you have O case out there? Oh, 1305 01:42:01,640 --> 01:42:04,920 I'm so glad you asked that. I there are a couple that I've 1306 01:42:04,920 --> 01:42:10,199 just really become fascinated with as I've worked on the Heineck book. There are 1307 01:42:10,239 --> 01:42:13,039 some that I haven't gotten to yet that I'm looking forward to getting to, 1308 01:42:13,199 --> 01:42:17,279 namely the coin helicopter case from nineteen seventy three. I think that's going to 1309 01:42:17,359 --> 01:42:23,800 be a really fascinating case because you know that the coin case basically became Heineck's 1310 01:42:23,800 --> 01:42:30,960 gold standard for a UFO, a UFO event, credible observers, all trained 1311 01:42:30,000 --> 01:42:36,479 observers, you know, they're all all the helicopter crew. Their their eyewitness 1312 01:42:36,560 --> 01:42:43,600 testimony all corroborate. They all corroborated each other. It was additionally corroborated by 1313 01:42:43,640 --> 01:42:47,319 witnesses on the ground who saw saw what was happening and thought that they were 1314 01:42:47,359 --> 01:42:53,399 about to witness a midair collision. That's a very, very compelling case and 1315 01:42:53,439 --> 01:42:56,800 I'm really looking forward to digging into that. My personal favorite, though, 1316 01:42:56,880 --> 01:43:00,520 is the Pascagoula abduction case, which which took place about three weeks before the 1317 01:43:00,520 --> 01:43:06,000 Coin helicopter case, and it's that's my favorite because, again going back to 1318 01:43:06,039 --> 01:43:11,399 my childhood, I can still remember that that was nineteen seventy three. I 1319 01:43:11,439 --> 01:43:15,720 would have been around thirteen years old. I can still remember that that case 1320 01:43:16,079 --> 01:43:21,119 made national made the national news. They reported on it on the radio, 1321 01:43:21,159 --> 01:43:25,680 they reported on it in the newspaper, they reported it on the TV news, 1322 01:43:26,079 --> 01:43:29,680 And that was a first for me. I don't I had never been 1323 01:43:29,960 --> 01:43:34,680 aware, at least before then, of a UFO case hitting the big time 1324 01:43:34,720 --> 01:43:39,319 as far as the national press goes, And to me, that's sort of 1325 01:43:40,560 --> 01:43:43,399 it wasn't just something I was reading about in a book anymore. It was 1326 01:43:43,439 --> 01:43:46,359 something that really happens to real people, and I was I was just really 1327 01:43:46,439 --> 01:43:49,159 drawn in by that story. And I've always been a huge fan of that. 1328 01:43:50,279 --> 01:43:54,439 And Mark, did did you contact me a while ago to get a 1329 01:43:54,479 --> 01:43:59,520 hold of Calvin? I believe I did. Yes, Okay, I remember, 1330 01:44:00,119 --> 01:44:03,119 Yeah. Yeah. Calvin's a great guy. I had him on each 1331 01:44:03,319 --> 01:44:08,119 talk. He rarely does interviews, and I was lucky enough to get him 1332 01:44:08,159 --> 01:44:15,000 on UM. He's the sole survivor of that incident and kind of a really 1333 01:44:15,039 --> 01:44:18,159 great story. I'll just tell you I have told it quickly on this show. 1334 01:44:18,680 --> 01:44:26,439 That show actually UM connected him to as a strange daughter and they talked 1335 01:44:26,439 --> 01:44:30,520 to each other every single day. Um. She found his information on my 1336 01:44:30,560 --> 01:44:33,880 show and contacted me and I got the two together. It was just one 1337 01:44:33,880 --> 01:44:38,119 of those great things that makes me really happy that I do this show, 1338 01:44:38,159 --> 01:44:42,399 that you know something like that happened out of it. Wow, that's really 1339 01:44:42,439 --> 01:44:45,840 profound. I'm glad you told me that story. That's that's really kind of 1340 01:44:45,880 --> 01:44:47,840 given me the chills. Well, I'll tell you he's such a nice gentleman. 1341 01:44:47,880 --> 01:44:51,319 It was a it was a real pleasure talking to him, well, 1342 01:44:51,359 --> 01:44:59,319 you know, researching that story, it he he and he and Charlie Hickson 1343 01:45:00,399 --> 01:45:05,840 both come off as such sincere, genuine people. I really didn't. I 1344 01:45:05,920 --> 01:45:10,800 was surprised to find out how well documented that case was once I started doing 1345 01:45:10,800 --> 01:45:14,479 their research. You know, for the listener are out there, why don't 1346 01:45:14,520 --> 01:45:17,760 you just go over the case? Oh? Sure, sure. These two 1347 01:45:17,760 --> 01:45:23,199 men were out fishing on a pier in Pascagoula, Missouri, near a shipyard 1348 01:45:23,239 --> 01:45:26,520 where they worked. It was after dark, I can't remember how late, 1349 01:45:26,560 --> 01:45:29,479 maybe ten or eleven at night. And it was an older man, Charlie 1350 01:45:29,560 --> 01:45:34,840 Hickson, and a younger man, Calvin Parker, who Charlie knew Calvin's parents, 1351 01:45:34,840 --> 01:45:38,560 and he had sort of promised their parents that he would sort of look 1352 01:45:38,600 --> 01:45:42,520 after him as when he moved to the big city. So these two guys 1353 01:45:42,520 --> 01:45:46,399 were out fishing on the pier along this little channel behind the shipyard, and 1354 01:45:46,439 --> 01:45:53,279 the fish aren't biting and they can't figure out why. And Charlie turns around 1355 01:45:53,319 --> 01:45:59,239 to get some bait from his tackle box and he sees this blue glowing object 1356 01:45:59,319 --> 01:46:02,000 sort of full or egg shaped, kind of dropping down out of the sky. 1357 01:46:02,800 --> 01:46:10,319 And it comes down and hovers on the ground a short distance behind them. 1358 01:46:10,399 --> 01:46:13,520 By this time, Calvin has turned around and seen it, and both 1359 01:46:13,520 --> 01:46:16,720 men stand up to look at it. And it's got this white egg shaped 1360 01:46:16,840 --> 01:46:21,359 craft has two glowing blue lights on the side, and as they watch, 1361 01:46:21,359 --> 01:46:27,560 a door opens on the side of the object and these three strange creatures come 1362 01:46:27,640 --> 01:46:30,000 floating out. They never touch the ground. They don't even really have feet. 1363 01:46:30,079 --> 01:46:33,239 They just have sort of knobs at the ends of their legs, and 1364 01:46:33,319 --> 01:46:38,319 they have sort of crab like pinchers on the ends of their arms, and 1365 01:46:38,479 --> 01:46:44,000 they have kind of featureless heads, but there's a pointy thing where the nose 1366 01:46:44,039 --> 01:46:46,119 should be in two pointing things where the ears should be, and there's a 1367 01:46:46,199 --> 01:46:49,279 tiny little slit where the mouth should be. But there are no eyes as 1368 01:46:49,319 --> 01:46:56,600 I remember, and Calvin and Charlie feel paralyzed. Could have just been fear, 1369 01:46:56,720 --> 01:46:59,520 or it could have been something else. And these creatures kind of take 1370 01:46:59,560 --> 01:47:05,279 them by the arms and float them into their craft. Calvin passes out as 1371 01:47:05,279 --> 01:47:10,119 they're being led into the craft, so he doesn't remember anything at least at 1372 01:47:10,119 --> 01:47:15,720 the time. Charlie, the older man, stays awake and he's invested. 1373 01:47:15,800 --> 01:47:21,960 He's sort of inspected inside the ship by this sort of mechanical eye that sticks 1374 01:47:21,960 --> 01:47:26,520 out of the wall, right, and it examines him from head to toe, 1375 01:47:27,199 --> 01:47:31,840 and about twenty minutes later they take him back outside. Calvin's already outside 1376 01:47:31,880 --> 01:47:36,039 of the craft. He's sort of kneeling down on the gravel, just sort 1377 01:47:36,039 --> 01:47:42,239 of petrified with fear and or with his hands stretched out. I think I'm 1378 01:47:42,239 --> 01:47:47,960 getting that detail right. And they deposit Charlie, the older man, next 1379 01:47:47,960 --> 01:47:50,880 to him, and they go floating back into the craft, and then the 1380 01:47:50,920 --> 01:47:55,479 craft disappears. It doesn't the craft doesn't fly back up in the sky. 1381 01:47:56,439 --> 01:48:00,600 It just kind of pops out of existence, which is an interest detail that 1382 01:48:00,600 --> 01:48:03,439 pops up in a lot of UFO experiences. That is, that's a real 1383 01:48:03,479 --> 01:48:06,039 tricky thing to explain. I don't know what that means, but at any 1384 01:48:06,119 --> 01:48:10,159 rate, so these two men have gone through this experience and they go to 1385 01:48:10,159 --> 01:48:12,960 the local sheriff, and this is one of the most famous parts of the 1386 01:48:13,000 --> 01:48:17,359 case. The sheriff is completely bewildered by what these men are telling him. 1387 01:48:17,479 --> 01:48:20,399 Of course, they split the two men up and they get stories from each 1388 01:48:20,439 --> 01:48:26,720 of the men, and their stories match up pretty much identically, aside from 1389 01:48:26,720 --> 01:48:31,279 the fact that Calvin passed out, and then they leave the two men together 1390 01:48:31,399 --> 01:48:35,680 in an interrogation room with a hidden tape recorder, and the sheriff is really 1391 01:48:35,720 --> 01:48:39,119 pleased with how smart he is. He thinks he's going to get to the 1392 01:48:39,119 --> 01:48:42,399 bottom of this. He thinks, he thinks, as soon as they leave 1393 01:48:42,439 --> 01:48:45,119 these two guys alone in her room, they're going to start laughing their heads 1394 01:48:45,119 --> 01:48:48,159 off and slapping each other on the backs, you know, congratulating themselves on 1395 01:48:48,239 --> 01:48:53,720 what a great joke they pulled on the sheriff. And instead they get a 1396 01:48:53,760 --> 01:49:00,640 tape recording of this conversation between these two men who are clearly just terrified out 1397 01:49:00,640 --> 01:49:04,640 of their wits and they have no idea how to process what they've just gone 1398 01:49:04,640 --> 01:49:08,640 through, and they just want to go home and have a stiff drink and 1399 01:49:08,680 --> 01:49:15,239 get to bed and forget it all. And the sheriff and his deputies are 1400 01:49:15,279 --> 01:49:18,399 just astounded by this tape recording. It's the exact opposite of what they thought 1401 01:49:18,479 --> 01:49:25,479 they would hear. And so the two guys go home and the sheriff promises 1402 01:49:25,520 --> 01:49:29,680 them that he will not tell anybody about what happened. But the next day 1403 01:49:29,680 --> 01:49:33,359 Pascaguila, Missouri, is filled with reporters from all over the country. Somehow 1404 01:49:33,359 --> 01:49:36,520 the story leaks out from the sheriff's department and the press picks it up, 1405 01:49:38,439 --> 01:49:42,159 and Heineck was there to investigate. Heineck was actually working as a consultant to 1406 01:49:42,279 --> 01:49:45,439 NBC News at the time on a news special that they were preparing on the 1407 01:49:45,560 --> 01:49:51,640 UFO phenomenon, and so Heinich. Heinich was flown down to Pascagoula, and 1408 01:49:51,720 --> 01:49:58,840 he was there when a psychologist attempted to hypnotize the two witnesses, and that 1409 01:49:59,600 --> 01:50:02,920 attempt failed because they were both so terrified. Every time the hypnotists tried to 1410 01:50:02,960 --> 01:50:10,279 get these two gentlemen to relive their experience, they would just become completely terrified 1411 01:50:10,279 --> 01:50:13,800 and they couldn't go on. So they just had to stop the hypnosis. 1412 01:50:13,800 --> 01:50:17,119 It just didn't work. About a month later, Calvin, by this time 1413 01:50:17,159 --> 01:50:23,119 had been institutionalized for the first time as a result of his experience. So 1414 01:50:23,239 --> 01:50:27,520 Charlie, the older man, undertook a polygraph test, and he passed the 1415 01:50:27,560 --> 01:50:30,600 polygraph test with flying colors, and the polygraph operator was quoted as saying, 1416 01:50:31,560 --> 01:50:35,560 I'm not saying he saw a spaceship, but when he says he saw a 1417 01:50:35,600 --> 01:50:41,840 spaceship. He's not lying. It's an incredible story. I'm getting the goosebumps 1418 01:50:41,880 --> 01:50:45,079 just telling the story. Yeah, well you told it pretty well. Thanks. 1419 01:50:45,479 --> 01:50:48,800 Yeah, no, that to me. I was thrilled to get to 1420 01:50:48,880 --> 01:50:55,279 get ahold of Calvin and have him on the show. And you know, 1421 01:50:55,319 --> 01:50:58,039 it's it's kind of funny. It'd almost like to have someone like him back, 1422 01:50:58,079 --> 01:51:02,079 but it's basically telling this same story. However, I've had I've had 1423 01:51:02,119 --> 01:51:08,479 Travis Walton on like five times, so maybe that's another interesting case in my 1424 01:51:08,560 --> 01:51:15,319 opinion. So those are really good stories. We have about all somewhere around 1425 01:51:15,439 --> 01:51:23,000 five minutes or so left, and so let's see. I want to you 1426 01:51:23,079 --> 01:51:26,319 did make this list of really funny questions, so I'm going to see if 1427 01:51:26,319 --> 01:51:29,479 I can just ask. I'm well, I'm glad you thought they were funny. 1428 01:51:29,680 --> 01:51:34,079 Yeah, they're they're pretty good. Oh, Which cable TV UFO show 1429 01:51:34,279 --> 01:51:41,560 is the best or or at least the worst as far as re enactments of 1430 01:51:41,720 --> 01:51:46,439 UFO cases. I can't say that I've seen all of the shows, but 1431 01:51:47,119 --> 01:51:51,880 what I have seen, I've been very impressed with the Canadian show called Close 1432 01:51:51,960 --> 01:51:56,960 Encounters. I can't remember which channel it's on. Now, I'm a little 1433 01:51:56,960 --> 01:52:00,600 biased on that because Mark Rodiger is one of their is one of their guests 1434 01:52:00,439 --> 01:52:04,079 experts, so he's in a lot of the episodes, and rightly so, 1435 01:52:04,239 --> 01:52:10,079 the guy's just as he's an encyclopedia of UFO lore. But I've been very 1436 01:52:10,079 --> 01:52:14,760 impressed with that show, with the way they recreate the UFO sightings. In 1437 01:52:14,800 --> 01:52:18,039 fact, that show was where I first learned about the Warren Minnesota, the 1438 01:52:18,399 --> 01:52:23,640 sheriff's car in Minnesota that got attacked by the UFO, because they did a 1439 01:52:23,720 --> 01:52:30,039 really nice reenactment of that of that sighting, So that that would so again 1440 01:52:30,159 --> 01:52:32,840 qualify find the answer by saying I haven't seen all the shows. Of the 1441 01:52:32,840 --> 01:52:35,399 ones I've seen, that one impresses me. I like it a lot. 1442 01:52:35,760 --> 01:52:42,720 Uh huh. Yeah. I think it's good when someone sticks to the story 1443 01:52:42,760 --> 01:52:46,079 and does it well. But when you actually know a story and you see 1444 01:52:46,119 --> 01:52:51,880 that they're going wrong with it, or you've done some research and a story 1445 01:52:51,920 --> 01:52:56,479 and then you see that you know they're bringing in other aspects to make it 1446 01:52:56,520 --> 01:52:59,119 more interesting, it's just too bad they feel it. So they have to, 1447 01:53:00,119 --> 01:53:03,279 you know, um accentuate a story and change things to make it better. 1448 01:53:04,039 --> 01:53:09,439 Well, a lot of that has done on the cutting room floor too, 1449 01:53:09,880 --> 01:53:13,880 Yes, and I've just had a recent experience with that. I just 1450 01:53:13,960 --> 01:53:18,960 did my first cable TV guest expert appearance in July on Mysteries at the Monument 1451 01:53:19,000 --> 01:53:24,720 on the Travel Channel. UM they did a story on the swamp gas case 1452 01:53:24,760 --> 01:53:30,640 in Michigan, and they were they were trying to make the case that that 1453 01:53:30,640 --> 01:53:36,199 that case was the exact moment when Jallen Heineck changed his mind and sort of 1454 01:53:36,239 --> 01:53:43,600 recanted on UFOs and became a believer, and what that case was certainly part 1455 01:53:43,640 --> 01:53:45,920 of the process Heineck went through, but it wasn't the exact moment. There 1456 01:53:46,000 --> 01:53:49,439 wasn't any exact moment, you know, was the point that I was trying 1457 01:53:49,439 --> 01:53:54,840 to get across. You know, him changing his mind actually took place over 1458 01:53:54,880 --> 01:53:59,000 about eight or ten years. It was a long painful process for him to 1459 01:53:59,079 --> 01:54:01,439 decide that he had been wrong. You know, it didn't just happen overnight. 1460 01:54:01,479 --> 01:54:04,359 It happened over a long period of time. But so I tried to 1461 01:54:04,359 --> 01:54:10,000 get that point across in my interview, But the producers of the show really 1462 01:54:10,039 --> 01:54:14,199 wanted to have that one dramatic moment where you like you know, Heineck has 1463 01:54:14,239 --> 01:54:17,279 his epiphany where he realizes he's been wrong and he instantly changes his mind. 1464 01:54:17,640 --> 01:54:23,119 So that's the storyline they went with. I was a little disappointed, so 1465 01:54:23,279 --> 01:54:26,399 you know, they got the spirit of the story right, but they didn't 1466 01:54:26,439 --> 01:54:30,840 get the details right. But that's what happens with these TV shows, right. 1467 01:54:30,680 --> 01:54:34,560 So we have like a minute and a half left here. So do 1468 01:54:34,640 --> 01:54:41,000 you want to give out your blog site? Sure, it's high Strangeness ufo 1469 01:54:41,000 --> 01:54:45,680 dot com one. Being a writer, have you thought about writing a book 1470 01:54:45,720 --> 01:54:49,600 on the topic on UFOs aside from the Heineck book? You mean right? 1471 01:54:50,039 --> 01:54:53,359 Oh? Yeah, I think about it all the time, and the and 1472 01:54:53,560 --> 01:54:57,640 the blog has given me. Between the blog and the work I've done for 1473 01:54:57,800 --> 01:55:00,560 mouf on Um, there are a couple different directions I could go with it, 1474 01:55:01,319 --> 01:55:04,760 and I probably won't decide which direction to go with it until I'm done 1475 01:55:04,800 --> 01:55:08,359 with the Heineck book, to be honest. Yeah, And when do you 1476 01:55:08,359 --> 01:55:12,680 expect that to be done? Well, a lot depends on what happens once 1477 01:55:12,720 --> 01:55:15,319 my agents starts shopping around. I would hope to have it done in twenty 1478 01:55:15,359 --> 01:55:20,000 sixteen, but I'm new to this this book publishing world. I don't really 1479 01:55:20,039 --> 01:55:24,119 know what kind of time scale they operate on, so I would I would 1480 01:55:24,119 --> 01:55:29,399 hope twenty sixteen, twenty seventeen. I see. Okay, well, I've 1481 01:55:29,399 --> 01:55:31,640 had a lot of fun tonight. I want to thank you very much for 1482 01:55:31,680 --> 01:55:34,000 thank you so much for inviting me. I've really enjoyed it and hope we 1483 01:55:34,000 --> 01:55:38,079 can do it again. That's yes, I'd like to have you back when 1484 01:55:38,119 --> 01:55:41,680 you when you get that book published. That would be best. All right, 1485 01:55:41,800 --> 01:55:44,359 deal, all right, all right, thanks a lot, Okay, 1486 01:55:44,359 --> 01:55:46,159 have a good night. Yeah, thank you. Okay, everyone, Well, 1487 01:55:46,199 --> 01:55:50,119 that's it for the show this evening, and I appreciate you all listening 1488 01:55:50,199 --> 01:55:54,520 and all the supporters out there. I appreciate all your help you're giving me. 1489 01:55:54,560 --> 01:55:59,000 We'll get all that straightened out next week as a prerecorded show, and 1490 01:55:59,479 --> 01:56:04,199 on that I have Class Spawn and Doctor Eric Farouk, kind of a sciencey 1491 01:56:04,239 --> 01:56:06,960 show. You're gonna love that one. I won't be around. I won't 1492 01:56:08,000 --> 01:56:11,479 even be on the chat room. I'll be sleeping somewhere in Russia. And 1493 01:56:11,560 --> 01:56:15,720 so that's it for this show, and thank you so much for listening. 1494 01:56:15,439 --> 01:56:18,760 And you can listen to the same time next week right here on the Dark 1495 01:56:18,760 --> 01:56:19,880 Matter Digital network