WEBVTT 1 00:00:03.919 --> 00:00:08.839 You are listening to the IFH podcast Network. For more amazing filmmaking and screenwriting 2 00:00:08.880 --> 00:00:14.839 podcasts, just go to ifahpodcastnetwork dot com. Welcome to the Bulletproof Screenwriting Podcast, 3 00:00:14.960 --> 00:00:19.359 Episode number three fifty one. To make a real independent film where the 4 00:00:19.359 --> 00:00:24.760 filmmaker is in charge creatively, one must sacrifice personal, financial, and physical 5 00:00:24.800 --> 00:00:30.879 wellbeing. Mark Polish broadcasting from a dark, windowless room in Hollywood when we 6 00:00:30.960 --> 00:00:35.520 really should be working on that next draft. It's the Bulletproof Screenwriting Podcast, 7 00:00:35.880 --> 00:00:39.560 showing you the craft and business of screenwriting while teaching you how to make your 8 00:00:39.560 --> 00:00:45.920 screenplay bulletproof. And here's your host, Alex Ferrari. Welcome, Welcome to 9 00:00:45.960 --> 00:00:50.200 another episode of the Bulletproof Screenwriting Podcast. I am your humble host Alex Ferrari. 10 00:00:50.880 --> 00:00:55.960 Now, today's show is sponsored by Bulletproof script Coverage. Now. Unlike 11 00:00:56.079 --> 00:01:00.880 other script coverage services, Bulletproof Script Coverage actually focus is on the kind of 12 00:01:02.000 --> 00:01:04.640 project you are and the goals of the project you are, So we actually 13 00:01:04.680 --> 00:01:10.079 break it down by three categories micro budget, indie film, market and studio 14 00:01:10.120 --> 00:01:12.319 film. There's no reason to get coverage from a reader that's used to reading 15 00:01:12.359 --> 00:01:17.439 temp pole movies when your movie is gonna be done for one hundred thousand dollars, 16 00:01:17.560 --> 00:01:19.840 and we wanted to focus on that. At Bulletproof Script Coverage, our 17 00:01:19.879 --> 00:01:25.519 readers have worked with Marvel Studios, CIA, WME, NBC, HBO, 18 00:01:25.719 --> 00:01:30.040 Disney, Scott Free, Warner Brothers, The Blacklist, and many many more. 19 00:01:30.079 --> 00:01:34.359 So if you need your screenplay or TV script covered by professional readers, 20 00:01:34.840 --> 00:01:41.319 head on over to covermiscreenplay dot com. Now, guys, I know many 21 00:01:41.359 --> 00:01:46.000 of you have heard about test screenings and what studios do by putting out their 22 00:01:46.040 --> 00:01:49.280 movies and watching a watching a test audience, having asking them questions, what 23 00:01:49.319 --> 00:01:53.840 they think and what goes on. But I've never really understood or gotten an 24 00:01:53.879 --> 00:01:59.680 inside look at what actually is happening in those test screenings, how they're set 25 00:01:59.719 --> 00:02:02.640 up, what the stories are behind it, and so much more So, 26 00:02:02.719 --> 00:02:12.000 today we have filmmaker Terrence Martin who begun his career as a studio test screener, 27 00:02:12.520 --> 00:02:19.280 and his insights on the process is pretty invaluable to any independent filmmaker out 28 00:02:19.319 --> 00:02:23.599 there. So we talk about his journey, some amazing stories with some big 29 00:02:23.639 --> 00:02:28.120 celebrities and big studios, and what happened before the screening and after the screening 30 00:02:28.719 --> 00:02:32.719 and We also talk about his new film get Away If You Can, which 31 00:02:32.919 --> 00:02:38.800 stars Ed Harris, and we also talk about how he was able to get 32 00:02:38.520 --> 00:02:44.479 Ed Harris for an independent film while he's being one of the biggest stars on 33 00:02:44.520 --> 00:02:49.439 Westworld and just being a legend in general. So it's a fascinating conversation on 34 00:02:49.599 --> 00:02:53.879 how you're able to get a big, big star to work on your independent 35 00:02:53.879 --> 00:02:57.919 film. So, without any further ado, please enjoy my conversation with Terrence 36 00:02:58.080 --> 00:03:01.080 Martin like to welcome to the show, Terrence Martin. Man, how you 37 00:03:01.120 --> 00:03:05.800 doing, Terrence great man, Thanks for having me. We thank love the 38 00:03:05.800 --> 00:03:07.919 show. Oh, thank you so much. Man. Yeah, you've been 39 00:03:07.919 --> 00:03:10.000 telling me that you were you were a fan and you've been listening to it, 40 00:03:10.080 --> 00:03:14.319 and it was kind of like a lifeline of like what's going on in 41 00:03:14.360 --> 00:03:19.639 the business while you were going through your opus of making a movie, an 42 00:03:19.639 --> 00:03:22.400 independent film for seven years and all that stuff, which we're going to get 43 00:03:22.400 --> 00:03:24.560 into your to your new movie. But I'm glad, I'm glad we could 44 00:03:24.560 --> 00:03:29.680 be a voice of reason and scare the hell out of you as well along 45 00:03:29.719 --> 00:03:34.479 the way. Definitely hearing some of the other similar horror spurys and when you 46 00:03:34.479 --> 00:03:36.840 make something new, and you have your head down for seven years. When 47 00:03:36.840 --> 00:03:39.520 you come out, the industry is completely different. So hearing from your guests 48 00:03:40.400 --> 00:03:45.439 helped us avoid a lot of troubles as we sold our film. Awesome Awesome, 49 00:03:45.960 --> 00:03:47.039 of course, of course that's why we're here to doing that. Man. 50 00:03:47.280 --> 00:03:50.719 So how did you get first of why did you want to get into 51 00:03:50.759 --> 00:03:54.479 this insanity? And how did you get into this insanity that business? Yeah, 52 00:03:54.560 --> 00:03:58.319 man, I got a bit by the creative bug really early. I 53 00:03:58.360 --> 00:04:00.759 grew up in like blue collar town in Connecticut. This was not like the 54 00:04:00.759 --> 00:04:05.080 Who's the Boss Connecticut. It was a pretty tough, tough town. And 55 00:04:05.560 --> 00:04:09.719 I got into something they deemed the gifted program, right where they ship you 56 00:04:09.800 --> 00:04:14.400 off to another school with a few few people, which was like the worst 57 00:04:14.439 --> 00:04:16.879 thing you could call something at that time because all the other kids like resented 58 00:04:16.920 --> 00:04:19.920 you. But when I got to this special program, every week, the 59 00:04:19.920 --> 00:04:21.639 teacher said, hey, what would you like to do? And I said, 60 00:04:21.680 --> 00:04:25.360 well, I love storytelling, I love reading, I love movies, 61 00:04:25.360 --> 00:04:27.800 and she's like, go in that room and just write. And I was. 62 00:04:27.920 --> 00:04:30.839 I must have been in third grade and I just started writing Wow. 63 00:04:30.519 --> 00:04:33.079 And I would come back and the teacher would say, now read it to 64 00:04:33.879 --> 00:04:36.439 me in the class and she would always say, yeah, your stories are 65 00:04:36.439 --> 00:04:40.600 okay, but my peers, my friends would start asking me for these stories. 66 00:04:40.959 --> 00:04:43.839 So since third grade, I had a really great relationship with writing. 67 00:04:44.399 --> 00:04:46.040 And my cousin was in film school. She was much older than me, 68 00:04:46.079 --> 00:04:49.360 and she would then take her sixteen millimeter camera and we would make these fun 69 00:04:49.360 --> 00:04:53.480 little horror movies on the beach, because you know, I was the VHS 70 00:04:53.879 --> 00:04:57.279 generation, so I would skip school and come home with like a pile of 71 00:04:57.360 --> 00:05:00.000 movies, and you know, I was really into horror films at the time. 72 00:05:00.240 --> 00:05:03.279 So it just was writing and filmmaking were pleasures for me at a young 73 00:05:03.319 --> 00:05:09.279 age and it kind of stuck through through through college. I wanted to come 74 00:05:09.319 --> 00:05:11.839 straight out to LA at eighteen, but you know, parents are like, 75 00:05:11.959 --> 00:05:14.839 you're going to get your degree, you know. So I went to a 76 00:05:14.879 --> 00:05:18.160 liberal arts school and I was pretty miserable unless I was studying writing filmmaking, 77 00:05:18.360 --> 00:05:23.480 and they allowed me to finish here at UCLA campus. They were just starting 78 00:05:23.480 --> 00:05:26.560 this thing called the New York Film Academy in LA and they let me do 79 00:05:26.680 --> 00:05:30.079 like basically half a semester's credits to take this program, and it was right 80 00:05:30.079 --> 00:05:34.959 on the UCLA campus. And right after they went to Universal Studios and they 81 00:05:35.000 --> 00:05:39.199 needed people to help with the summer program, and I got a job with 82 00:05:39.240 --> 00:05:43.040 them, which was basically just running all around the lot making short films with 83 00:05:43.120 --> 00:05:46.720 these like crazy high schoolers. So we would like be at the Psycho House 84 00:05:46.759 --> 00:05:49.319 one day making a film with one and one of my early students was Max 85 00:05:49.360 --> 00:05:54.920 Spielberg, so it was just like crazy, yeah, yeah, yeah, 86 00:05:55.000 --> 00:05:58.480 yeah, he didn't really love. I had to love like Steven for our 87 00:05:58.480 --> 00:06:01.120 filmmaking. But it was so crazy to be like teaching Spielberg's son, you 88 00:06:01.120 --> 00:06:04.319 know, not really teaching, just being a liaison for his short films. 89 00:06:04.360 --> 00:06:09.040 But it was a really cool. Yeah, it was fun, man, 90 00:06:09.120 --> 00:06:12.199 and it really taught me that I had a lot of work to do because 91 00:06:12.240 --> 00:06:18.199 most of my other teaching assistants were straight out of UCLA grad school. So 92 00:06:18.319 --> 00:06:20.879 here I am like, hey, i'll help you get your filmmate, I'll 93 00:06:20.920 --> 00:06:23.600 read your scripts, and they were like, who are you man? You 94 00:06:23.680 --> 00:06:26.879 just came out of the New York Film Academy program. So I realized straight 95 00:06:26.920 --> 00:06:29.839 off, like this is going to be very competitive, and I bet it 96 00:06:29.879 --> 00:06:32.360 work hard, you know, so I just really started focusing on writing scripts 97 00:06:32.360 --> 00:06:36.160 and reading everything I could. I had already taken to Joseph Campbell and The 98 00:06:36.199 --> 00:06:41.959 Hero's Journey, that was probably my favorite ARC book about how the writing process 99 00:06:41.959 --> 00:06:44.800 should be. But then I just read everything, you know, put my 100 00:06:44.879 --> 00:06:46.959 nose to the grind soon and I wrote ten or fifteen scripts and was lucky 101 00:06:47.040 --> 00:06:51.120 enough to have a manager take one out on the town. It didn't sell, 102 00:06:51.199 --> 00:06:55.040 but it was the exact story of the Revenant, but told through the 103 00:06:55.120 --> 00:06:58.199 kids, the kids perspective, who was Jim Bridgard. But it was that 104 00:06:58.240 --> 00:07:01.519 same trapping mission, which is like a femous mission. I remember going into 105 00:07:02.480 --> 00:07:05.920 to meetings and just because they passed, I thought, well, if they're 106 00:07:05.959 --> 00:07:09.360 meeting, I still have a chance to get this made, you know, 107 00:07:09.800 --> 00:07:13.000 instead of just like cultivating a relationship, I would be trying to press, 108 00:07:13.120 --> 00:07:15.160 you know, this Mountain Man script. And I was meeting with this executive. 109 00:07:15.240 --> 00:07:17.160 She's like, yeah, you know, you're really good with story, 110 00:07:17.279 --> 00:07:21.720 You're you're cool with characters, but we're working on Scooby Doo too, And 111 00:07:21.759 --> 00:07:25.720 I say, can we call it Scooby Don't make eyes? Rest this American 112 00:07:25.800 --> 00:07:29.519 epic? And her face was like record scratch, and I thought, okay, 113 00:07:29.600 --> 00:07:33.399 like I'm doing this all wrong. What can we call it? Scoopy? 114 00:07:34.160 --> 00:07:36.800 I was making a silly joke, you know, but it was like, 115 00:07:38.160 --> 00:07:40.560 okay, cool, Like, thanks for coming in from the meeting, 116 00:07:40.639 --> 00:07:44.920 Terrence, We'll be in touch. So lesson for everyone listening. Don't do 117 00:07:45.000 --> 00:07:48.879 what Terrance said. But I also realized, like, I don't know that 118 00:07:48.959 --> 00:07:51.879 I want to be auditioning as a writer for Scooby Doo, Like I love 119 00:07:51.920 --> 00:07:55.160 the show as a kid, but I want to do my own stuff. 120 00:07:55.199 --> 00:07:58.040 And that's that's when I started writing The Donner Party, you know, which 121 00:07:58.079 --> 00:08:03.000 which ultimately got me. So during this time, there was like a little 122 00:08:05.240 --> 00:08:07.800 little side hustles you had to do in La to make a living. You've 123 00:08:07.800 --> 00:08:11.800 had some very interesting ones. Can you talk about your time as a test 124 00:08:11.800 --> 00:08:18.160 screener? Because test screenings we all hear these legendary test screenings like the Airplane 125 00:08:18.199 --> 00:08:22.480 One, which was notoriously bad because nobody wanted to admit that they liked it 126 00:08:22.720 --> 00:08:26.120 or totally you know, all these kind of movies that, like the ending 127 00:08:26.120 --> 00:08:31.799 of Fatal Attraction was changed because of the test screening. So what tell us 128 00:08:31.879 --> 00:08:37.080 your adventures in the test greening pace and what actually goes on behind the curtain, 129 00:08:37.120 --> 00:08:39.960 because I truly never been I've been in a test screening once or twice 130 00:08:39.960 --> 00:08:45.600 in my life, but I truly don't know how the studios work within it 131 00:08:45.679 --> 00:08:48.240 and what the process is, And tell me what you know. Sure well, 132 00:08:48.440 --> 00:08:52.440 I had gone from the New York Film Academy and I knew that the 133 00:08:52.480 --> 00:08:54.399 summer program was ending, so I kind of just was walking around a lot 134 00:08:54.440 --> 00:08:58.159 and I got a PA job on Holes, which has turned out to be 135 00:08:58.279 --> 00:09:01.840 kind of a hero to that generation, or a Shia the Buff's first movie. 136 00:09:01.840 --> 00:09:03.720 But man, they'd worked me. I was a PA in the art 137 00:09:03.720 --> 00:09:05.679 department from start to finish, And I came out of that thinking like, 138 00:09:05.720 --> 00:09:09.080 what kind of job can I do where I make my own hours and I 139 00:09:09.120 --> 00:09:11.919 write. And I don't know, if you're ever living in LA you see 140 00:09:11.960 --> 00:09:16.399 these guys like giving out free movie passes all the time and the point is 141 00:09:16.440 --> 00:09:18.799 to rate the film. And I thought like, there can't be an easier 142 00:09:18.799 --> 00:09:22.720 sales job than get a person to see a movie. And it did turn 143 00:09:22.759 --> 00:09:24.720 out to be a lot harder than I thought, but it was still pretty 144 00:09:24.720 --> 00:09:28.240 easy and it was really good money. Like if you put in the hours, 145 00:09:28.639 --> 00:09:31.559 You could work whenever you want. You could go to a cinema twelve 146 00:09:31.639 --> 00:09:33.919 at night and get people if that's what you felt like doing. And I 147 00:09:35.039 --> 00:09:37.000 liked the freedom of it, and they started to ship me off to other 148 00:09:37.039 --> 00:09:43.240 cities. So what would happen is you would get like a demographic. You 149 00:09:43.279 --> 00:09:45.720 would say, hey, I remember the Ring was an early one. The 150 00:09:45.720 --> 00:09:48.840 first ring, I went to San Diego, and they wanted high school age 151 00:09:48.240 --> 00:09:50.720 girls and boys. So we would go to high schools and we would talk 152 00:09:50.720 --> 00:09:56.279 to teachers and try to get like their perfect audience, and then they would 153 00:09:56.279 --> 00:10:00.679 all fill out a questionnaire and the filmmakers get a score. Basically, the 154 00:10:00.720 --> 00:10:05.559 main score is like how many people rated it very good or excellent. We'll 155 00:10:05.559 --> 00:10:11.440 be right back after a word from our sponsor, and now back to the 156 00:10:11.480 --> 00:10:16.919 show. That's like the number one score because they can really say, oh 157 00:10:16.960 --> 00:10:20.200 wow, we have a movie that super plays. And then the other score 158 00:10:20.240 --> 00:10:22.840 is like how many people recommend it? Because sometimes they'll like it, but 159 00:10:22.879 --> 00:10:26.480 they won't recommend, which can impact the box office. So I just went 160 00:10:26.519 --> 00:10:31.159 on this run for like four years of just a different city every Friday. 161 00:10:31.200 --> 00:10:35.799 Because basically, if you're filling screenings. They need you, like they need 162 00:10:35.799 --> 00:10:37.799 people who are getting numbers, just like any sales job. And we were 163 00:10:37.879 --> 00:10:43.960 killing it. So I had this partner and we man we did the highest 164 00:10:43.960 --> 00:10:46.360 scoring movie just so people get an idea of like what studios really want. 165 00:10:46.480 --> 00:10:50.440 Was Hitch with Will Smith, Like I had never seen a movie score that 166 00:10:50.519 --> 00:10:54.080 high. I think it was like ninety nine or near one hundred in both 167 00:10:54.120 --> 00:10:58.759 boxes. And Will Smith was out that screening. And you just gave these 168 00:10:58.759 --> 00:11:01.759 scores to Will and the direct and their faces because they know how key these 169 00:11:01.759 --> 00:11:05.000 scores are to the studio hits. Their faces just lit up like they won 170 00:11:05.000 --> 00:11:09.679 the Super Bowl. They were like yeah, like you can't get better than 171 00:11:09.679 --> 00:11:13.639 that. Like, and the movie was a massive hit because it's such a 172 00:11:13.360 --> 00:11:16.240 such a crowd pleaser, you know. And I realized in these screenings, 173 00:11:16.240 --> 00:11:22.120 when you make something just that pleases the crowd, it's a really special thing 174 00:11:22.200 --> 00:11:24.679 because the drama is even when they're good, like Colling Brothers stuff, I 175 00:11:24.720 --> 00:11:28.240 don't know that they test so great because people need time to reflect. You 176 00:11:28.279 --> 00:11:31.639 can't just put a paper in someone's space. Twelve Monkeys was one that didn't 177 00:11:31.639 --> 00:11:35.679 test well at all, but still had good particular acclaim and it has now 178 00:11:35.759 --> 00:11:37.080 become a hit, but people didn't know what to make of it from the 179 00:11:37.080 --> 00:11:39.879 first moment. So it's not conducive to like saying, yeah, I love 180 00:11:39.919 --> 00:11:41.919 this, because you're just like, WHOA, what the hell was that? 181 00:11:43.120 --> 00:11:45.960 I'm sure like two thousand and one, you know, wouldn't test well either, 182 00:11:46.000 --> 00:11:50.720 even though it's a complete classic, because these movies need more reflection. 183 00:11:50.320 --> 00:11:54.639 And probably the coolest thing I've ever seen in the test screening was I was 184 00:11:54.639 --> 00:11:58.960 working on You Glorious Bastards here in La at the I forget what theater it 185 00:11:58.080 --> 00:12:01.960 was, but nobody had seen the film, and Quinton, being who he 186 00:12:03.159 --> 00:12:07.679 was, and Harvey would generally bully when I worked for Harvey would generally bully 187 00:12:07.679 --> 00:12:09.279 filmmakers. He would use the scores to get to cut the movie. He 188 00:12:09.360 --> 00:12:13.759 did, so Quenton just took all the cards when they were done, through 189 00:12:13.879 --> 00:12:16.679 them in the trash right in front of Harvey and said, I'm just going 190 00:12:16.759 --> 00:12:20.120 to talk to the audience about my film. And it was so great and 191 00:12:20.200 --> 00:12:22.519 so refreshing to see a filmmaker just so proud of his work. He didn't 192 00:12:22.519 --> 00:12:26.559 even want to see the scores. I mean, I would never recommend this 193 00:12:26.639 --> 00:12:31.440 to it a young filmmaker that has an opportunity unless your name is yeah. 194 00:12:31.480 --> 00:12:33.600 But it was cool. Finally, a guy in the audience like had the 195 00:12:33.600 --> 00:12:35.320 current to say, hey, like, I don't know why you would use 196 00:12:35.360 --> 00:12:39.120 a David Bowie song in a period movie, and he goes because I'm the 197 00:12:39.120 --> 00:12:41.159 director and I love it there like and they were like, okay, cool, 198 00:12:41.279 --> 00:12:46.279 okay, cool. Yeah, that was nice. But that's pretty fascinating. 199 00:12:46.360 --> 00:12:52.080 Now. I've heard those stories of Harvey during his heyday that he would 200 00:12:52.639 --> 00:12:56.279 bully filmmaker. I know Studio fifty four was a really big one. He 201 00:12:56.399 --> 00:13:01.120 just literally just took that away from the filmmaker and cut it up and made 202 00:13:01.159 --> 00:13:03.360 it into something that it really did. It wasn't good. Later years later 203 00:13:03.720 --> 00:13:07.399 the director got a chance to do a director's cut, but yeah, And 204 00:13:07.679 --> 00:13:13.960 I'm imagining other studios and studio executives would use the test screening result the kind 205 00:13:15.000 --> 00:13:20.440 of bully or push around directors to get what they want right. Yeah, 206 00:13:20.480 --> 00:13:24.440 And to be fair, sometimes the film is just not working and right see 207 00:13:24.480 --> 00:13:26.240 it. And they thought they had a crowd pleaser. They thought they had 208 00:13:26.240 --> 00:13:31.480 a genre film that scared people, and it wouldn't work, so the directors 209 00:13:31.480 --> 00:13:33.120 would come in and recut it. I al started working for jud Apatol a 210 00:13:33.159 --> 00:13:37.600 lot of I did the first test screening of Forty year Old Virgin. It 211 00:13:37.639 --> 00:13:41.279 was it was awesome because we were in a thousand oaks and the film broke 212 00:13:41.879 --> 00:13:43.480 and there was only like ten minutes left, like everything had been resolved, 213 00:13:43.480 --> 00:13:48.080 and everybody just stayed glued to their seats. And I remember I was sitting 214 00:13:48.080 --> 00:13:50.200 near Seth Rogan. I said, man, like, you are going to 215 00:13:50.240 --> 00:13:54.440 be massive after this movie. You could just feel it the energy. But 216 00:13:54.519 --> 00:13:56.159 Judd was really good because he's a comedy guy, so he could read the 217 00:13:56.200 --> 00:14:00.840 audience and he could do a second test screening with a couple the key jokes 218 00:14:00.840 --> 00:14:03.440 and just tweak them in the editing room or reshoot something, and then the 219 00:14:03.480 --> 00:14:07.039 crowd would explode. So for comedy, I think test screening is like so 220 00:14:07.360 --> 00:14:16.000 essential, even even on that level. But did you also see multiple test 221 00:14:16.039 --> 00:14:20.519 screenings on the same film, So like you would see the original a test 222 00:14:20.559 --> 00:14:22.840 bad, they go back, shoot, re edit, come back and get 223 00:14:22.879 --> 00:14:26.360 it. Like, did you go through that process too? Yeah? For 224 00:14:26.200 --> 00:14:30.600 Knocked Up, it didn't test bad. His film's never tested bad. But 225 00:14:31.080 --> 00:14:35.039 the ending was a boy I think in the original in it it was like 226 00:14:35.080 --> 00:14:37.320 a dick joke. I don't know if I'm supposed to say this, but 227 00:14:37.440 --> 00:14:41.080 I don't think jud would mind. He's such a cool guy. And it 228 00:14:41.200 --> 00:14:43.200 was like you had so much of that the whole whole movie that when he 229 00:14:43.320 --> 00:14:46.639 changed it to a girl and he had the ability to read the screening and 230 00:14:46.960 --> 00:14:50.360 make that adjustment, and it just made you leave with this kind of like 231 00:14:50.440 --> 00:14:54.000 warm feeling, not just a joke. I thought that was pretty brilliant that 232 00:14:54.039 --> 00:14:58.399 he made that adjustment. And I saw that a lot with filmmakers that were 233 00:14:58.440 --> 00:15:01.080 open to the test screening and those where the filmmakers and studios really wanted to 234 00:15:01.080 --> 00:15:07.000 work with because they they knew that their their their film could be changed. 235 00:15:07.080 --> 00:15:09.360 And when when a director was new and they were too married to it, 236 00:15:09.480 --> 00:15:13.279 I found like wow, like a lot of guys never worked again after bad 237 00:15:13.320 --> 00:15:18.039 test screatings because they were they were inflexible with their with their film. You 238 00:15:18.080 --> 00:15:22.240 said you also worked on The Departed, right, Yeah, with with with 239 00:15:22.279 --> 00:15:26.320 a young and up and coming director at the time, Martin Marty Marty something 240 00:15:26.360 --> 00:15:31.600 like that. So Scorskezy, what was it so I'd love to because he 241 00:15:31.679 --> 00:15:37.840 is legendary for being man on a tour, like, truly, you're not 242 00:15:37.000 --> 00:15:41.879 touching a frame of my movie. So what was the test screening of like 243 00:15:41.919 --> 00:15:43.919 a legend like that was? And was he in the room? Did you? 244 00:15:45.039 --> 00:15:48.120 Oh? Yeah, that was exciting man, because of course I'm a 245 00:15:48.240 --> 00:15:50.080 huge like the Fellas is for me, like one of the tops, like 246 00:15:50.360 --> 00:15:54.399 I mean, he just he just hits on runs like that's what he does. 247 00:15:54.039 --> 00:15:56.840 So I was so excited. And we were in Chicago at this cool 248 00:15:58.039 --> 00:16:02.360 art house theater, but he had been so like nervous about that he told 249 00:16:02.360 --> 00:16:06.320 the projectionists not to start the film until he gave the okay, but nobody 250 00:16:06.360 --> 00:16:08.320 could find him, and it was my job to find him. So I'm 251 00:16:08.399 --> 00:16:11.879 running around the theater looking through seats. All the lights are already down, 252 00:16:11.960 --> 00:16:15.759 like the movie is ready to go. And then finally I find him and 253 00:16:15.799 --> 00:16:17.799 I get on the wire and I'm like, hey, I'm here with Martin, 254 00:16:18.279 --> 00:16:19.960 and the projection goes, okay, cool, we can roll now. 255 00:16:21.000 --> 00:16:23.919 So he had already talked to his technicians and make sure like on his command 256 00:16:25.000 --> 00:16:29.679 only to go, and the movie was almost exactly what came on the final 257 00:16:29.720 --> 00:16:34.159 screen there was there was a few key scenes where Jack Nicholson was really improvising 258 00:16:34.279 --> 00:16:37.360 that I noticed were a bit shorter, and I thought that was a really 259 00:16:37.399 --> 00:16:41.679 smart move on his part because you could kind of feel like, oh, 260 00:16:41.679 --> 00:16:45.720 this is great acting, but the story wasn't moving at the same pace that 261 00:16:45.799 --> 00:16:48.559 it was. And it was really interesting for me that he even he who 262 00:16:48.639 --> 00:16:53.720 was you know, such a Martin. Yeah, and his famous editor Elma 263 00:16:53.840 --> 00:16:57.840 was there, so that was awesome. Man. That was also so Jack 264 00:16:57.879 --> 00:17:03.039 because I know in that movie Jack Nicholson, he would kind of you know, 265 00:17:03.279 --> 00:17:06.359 I think you do a take or two or how many takes of the 266 00:17:06.400 --> 00:17:08.119 script, and then Marty would go go nuts and see what you have, 267 00:17:08.720 --> 00:17:11.799 and a lot of that did. The improvised stuff did fall into the in 268 00:17:11.839 --> 00:17:18.240 the movie, and it's such gold because it's Jack Nicholson riff. But if 269 00:17:18.279 --> 00:17:22.359 you saw that first cut before, like it was like that like in a 270 00:17:22.440 --> 00:17:26.440 few Moneys with a couple of minutes extra, which I love, but I 271 00:17:26.720 --> 00:17:29.160 realized, like, I mean, he won the Oscars for that, so 272 00:17:29.519 --> 00:17:33.480 he could feel you know, it's so interesting when when you're in the movie 273 00:17:33.480 --> 00:17:36.680 house you can just kind of feel the energy dropping you know, which is 274 00:17:36.720 --> 00:17:38.720 funny that I made such an art film get away if you can, because 275 00:17:38.759 --> 00:17:42.240 this movie would never test well like the movie you don't make. But I 276 00:17:42.279 --> 00:17:47.960 just needed maybe all that testing. I needed to express myself in an artistic 277 00:17:48.039 --> 00:17:51.359 kind of way. You know, how and how what lessons did you learn 278 00:17:51.400 --> 00:17:56.240 from that test screening experience as a filmmaker yourself? I think when I'm writing 279 00:17:56.440 --> 00:17:59.400 in my hope started to make a bigger budget movie to really think of the 280 00:17:59.440 --> 00:18:03.359 audience, you know, like, really think of how you're making people feel 281 00:18:03.599 --> 00:18:06.519 if you're trying to scare them, really get that right? Is it like 282 00:18:06.920 --> 00:18:10.359 you're you're writing for the audience in a way. You know, film is 283 00:18:10.400 --> 00:18:14.680 a business, and these big budget movies need an audience. And it really 284 00:18:14.680 --> 00:18:17.960 taught me that the audience is unforgiving. Even with a free movie. They 285 00:18:17.960 --> 00:18:21.200 would leave often, you know, they would say, hey, this movie 286 00:18:21.279 --> 00:18:23.079 is not for me. And sometimes you'd be dealing with like a half a 287 00:18:23.119 --> 00:18:26.359 theater and you would realize, like, these guys have spent millions and millions 288 00:18:26.359 --> 00:18:30.400 of dollars, these are not small movies, had made a complete flop, 289 00:18:30.480 --> 00:18:33.359 and you know, if you're not thinking of the audience, there are certain 290 00:18:33.599 --> 00:18:36.039 budget levels you can get away with art, right, but when you're doing 291 00:18:36.119 --> 00:18:40.000 these big films, man, you need to deliver. And what was the 292 00:18:40.039 --> 00:18:45.079 worst screening of a big movie that you ever were on? Come on, 293 00:18:45.279 --> 00:18:47.799 you could say, I mean, look, you're that test screening anymore? 294 00:18:51.559 --> 00:18:56.279 It was it was a DC comment that never got another one made. But 295 00:18:56.839 --> 00:19:00.119 I like the filmmaker a lot, but it was like a true disaster and 296 00:19:00.160 --> 00:19:03.319 it was his first feature and he didn't want to make any of the notes 297 00:19:03.400 --> 00:19:07.680 with the studio and he never got to do it, like they took a 298 00:19:07.759 --> 00:19:11.200 huge risk in hiring him. And did that movie get released? That movie, 299 00:19:11.279 --> 00:19:12.559 yeah, I got released. That got released. I'll just say it 300 00:19:12.599 --> 00:19:17.359 was a DC comic hero not in the main months. But but it was 301 00:19:17.440 --> 00:19:21.079 quite sad because they put a lot in. There was some innovative stuff with 302 00:19:21.200 --> 00:19:25.400 the sounds and the music, but it just didn't deliver. And some of 303 00:19:25.119 --> 00:19:29.480 the effects semes were laughable, so the whole audience would laugh, and not 304 00:19:29.559 --> 00:19:32.599 a good way. And instead of cutting that, which they should have done, 305 00:19:32.640 --> 00:19:34.960 they left it in. And it's just it really took people out because 306 00:19:36.319 --> 00:19:40.400 you know, if you don't deliver great CGI with these big h Timple movies. 307 00:19:41.039 --> 00:19:44.279 That's where people are judging the visuals right, So it would have been 308 00:19:44.319 --> 00:19:47.039 so much smarter just to cut it out. But you know, it was 309 00:19:47.119 --> 00:19:49.400 just it was quite sad because he was about my age, and I just 310 00:19:49.440 --> 00:19:52.480 saw him just bodding heads and I was like, this is not going to 311 00:19:52.640 --> 00:19:57.240 end well for this guy. You know, we'll be right back after a 312 00:19:57.240 --> 00:20:06.480 word from our sponsor, and now back to the show. I mean, 313 00:20:06.759 --> 00:20:08.400 if you're a Ridley Scott or Martin Scorsese, you can get away with that 314 00:20:08.480 --> 00:20:15.480 because you've already had decades of creating behind you. But when you're first up, 315 00:20:15.519 --> 00:20:18.839 man you and you get a shot like that, you gotta play You 316 00:20:18.920 --> 00:20:22.880 got to play ball. It's a balancing act where you need to protect your 317 00:20:22.799 --> 00:20:26.240 you know, your artistic you know, artistic integrity. But at the end 318 00:20:26.240 --> 00:20:32.880 of the day, people are spending god God, just hundreds of like fifty 319 00:20:33.000 --> 00:20:37.279 million, one hundred million dollars. You kind of helped it. This was 320 00:20:37.359 --> 00:20:40.640 over us, and he had the audience telling him too, like we do 321 00:20:40.880 --> 00:20:45.240 like overwhelmingly this scene is laughable. Cut it, take it away. But 322 00:20:45.279 --> 00:20:48.759 it's just, you know, sometimes the filmmaker stubborn thiss like you like it 323 00:20:48.839 --> 00:20:52.160 and you don't care that the whole world and maybe your career is never going 324 00:20:52.240 --> 00:20:56.880 to get another shot like that. Yeah, I mean yeah, no, 325 00:20:56.880 --> 00:20:57.640 no, no, no, I feel bad. I feel what did he 326 00:20:57.839 --> 00:21:00.880 what did you do it? On his battle hat? It wasn't at all 327 00:21:02.000 --> 00:21:04.519 like taking notes. It was just like I am battling and that's that. 328 00:21:04.920 --> 00:21:08.480 And you know, never got a chance to make a big studio movie again. 329 00:21:10.240 --> 00:21:11.400 And I mean that's why I feel so bad for the guys who did 330 00:21:11.480 --> 00:21:17.599 Backgirl. I mean, that's that's unheard of. I like, even bad 331 00:21:17.640 --> 00:21:22.000 movies get dropped into streaming. Why would they? I don't have to shell 332 00:21:22.079 --> 00:21:25.880 of one hundred million dollars? And Michael Keaton was back for God's sake, 333 00:21:26.200 --> 00:21:30.519 Batman, Like, what is going on? Even if it doesn't play like, 334 00:21:30.559 --> 00:21:33.279 you have so many fans that are gonna check it out and comment on 335 00:21:33.400 --> 00:21:37.880 them and talk about it. The released cat Woman, I mean, is 336 00:21:37.920 --> 00:21:41.200 it worse than cats? Like? How much worse can it be? The 337 00:21:41.240 --> 00:21:45.440 cat or cats? Let's just put cats out? How much worse it going 338 00:21:45.480 --> 00:21:49.200 to be the cats? For God's sake? Yeah, And you have like 339 00:21:49.240 --> 00:21:53.119 a thirsty film audience for it too. So even if it's bad. It's 340 00:21:53.160 --> 00:21:56.599 like you're gonna have people watching it, and that's the main thing with streaming 341 00:21:56.759 --> 00:22:00.839 is you want eyeballs in time. So that would surprise me. I think 342 00:22:00.839 --> 00:22:03.319 if they really actually, if they decided right now they just say, hey, 343 00:22:03.359 --> 00:22:04.799 you know what, we're putting it on HBO backs. Do you know 344 00:22:04.839 --> 00:22:11.000 how many people would just watch it just that weekend on Twitter would just be 345 00:22:11.119 --> 00:22:14.440 talking about this movie. It would it would trends, as the kids say, 346 00:22:14.480 --> 00:22:18.519 it would be trending. Uh so is there is Do you have an 347 00:22:18.559 --> 00:22:22.160 insane story like it? Just like I can't believe this happened in one of 348 00:22:22.160 --> 00:22:26.000 these screenings? Well yeah, I mean the Quentin was pretty awesome because I 349 00:22:26.039 --> 00:22:30.480 was like, wow that some day to have that power as a creative force. 350 00:22:30.160 --> 00:22:33.079 But I had a really good one which was kind of sad too, 351 00:22:33.440 --> 00:22:37.119 with Denzel Washington. He directed a movie called The Great Debaters and that scored 352 00:22:37.319 --> 00:22:41.119 really, really high. But at the same time he had that movie where 353 00:22:41.119 --> 00:22:47.519 he was she was like a criminal kingpin coming out in All American Gangster. 354 00:22:47.839 --> 00:22:49.119 Yeah totally, but he didn't direct that one. He was It was a 355 00:22:49.160 --> 00:22:55.400 really really so all the energy of his directorial debut went to that film, 356 00:22:55.400 --> 00:22:56.559 and even when I was testing it, everybody's like, no, I don't 357 00:22:56.559 --> 00:23:00.119 want to see that Denzel one. I want to see that that crime one. 358 00:23:00.559 --> 00:23:03.880 So even though that movie scored super high, audiences didn't come out for 359 00:23:03.960 --> 00:23:08.440 it. But I remember like working with like Denzel's election and I had the 360 00:23:08.480 --> 00:23:11.359 cards and He's like how much to make those all good? And I'm like, 361 00:23:11.440 --> 00:23:15.319 we don't need anything, like they're wonderful, Like people are really loving 362 00:23:15.319 --> 00:23:18.240 your film. But it also taught me that people can love a film, 363 00:23:18.519 --> 00:23:22.880 but if it's not hitting the right marketing or it's just not the timing that 364 00:23:23.319 --> 00:23:27.119 you know, it can still not be a financial success, even with Denzel 365 00:23:27.200 --> 00:23:30.799 promoting it. And I didn't don't think he acted, he only directed it. 366 00:23:32.440 --> 00:23:36.319 Now did you? Did you also work with the Academy? In some 367 00:23:36.400 --> 00:23:40.160 way I heard you say, yeah, I had a job. One of 368 00:23:40.200 --> 00:23:47.200 my early peers had a job right out of film school like hosting talent coordination 369 00:23:47.279 --> 00:23:49.319 on the red carpet. So he would basically hire you as a page for 370 00:23:49.400 --> 00:23:53.319 the Oscars and the Emmys, and you would you would on Friday, you 371 00:23:53.319 --> 00:23:57.039 would get like a program of the whole show and you would see like three 372 00:23:57.079 --> 00:24:00.240 celebrities that you were in charge of making sure they were on camera when they 373 00:24:00.279 --> 00:24:03.400 needed to be, and that would include like meeting them on the red carpet 374 00:24:03.480 --> 00:24:07.079 and greeting them. And you know there's every every now and then there's like 375 00:24:07.279 --> 00:24:11.079 a person who doesn't show up when the nomination and that's that's my job. 376 00:24:11.240 --> 00:24:17.519 Like somebody screwed up in my job, because that's highly coordinated. So like 377 00:24:17.680 --> 00:24:19.599 why they shouldn't be in the bathroom is what you're saying, Yeah, exactly, 378 00:24:19.680 --> 00:24:22.480 and they should know exactly, Hey, your your awards coming up, 379 00:24:22.599 --> 00:24:26.799 or you're presenting into commercials, we take them to the green room, or 380 00:24:26.279 --> 00:24:30.839 the producers really wants you at the start of the show. And that was 381 00:24:30.880 --> 00:24:34.000 insane because I started that in my early twenties. That I remember early on. 382 00:24:34.559 --> 00:24:37.680 Russell Crowe was one of his first years at the Academy Awards. I 383 00:24:37.759 --> 00:24:42.119 forget if it was Beautiful Mind or or what came first, but they really 384 00:24:42.200 --> 00:24:45.799 wanted him at the head of the show. But his publicist was having him 385 00:24:45.839 --> 00:24:48.799 do like interview after interview and it's like, okay, like we're three minutes 386 00:24:48.839 --> 00:24:51.960 to go. They just said, grab Russell. We don't even care if 387 00:24:51.960 --> 00:24:56.440 he's in an interview, so I, being the good employee, just grabs 388 00:24:56.440 --> 00:25:00.440 his arm interview turds like he's going to punch me in the face. And 389 00:25:00.480 --> 00:25:03.039 I was like, oh my god, like I'm about to get hit on 390 00:25:03.519 --> 00:25:10.440 Maximus totally. I think this was maybe even pre pre Gladiator. But but 391 00:25:11.039 --> 00:25:12.000 he said, what do you want? Why are you bothering me? And 392 00:25:12.039 --> 00:25:14.880 I said, no, I worked for the show, Like, if you 393 00:25:14.880 --> 00:25:17.240 don't get your ass in the seat right away, you're gonna miss the whole 394 00:25:17.240 --> 00:25:18.480 opening of the show. And he's like, oh, and she just tell 395 00:25:18.519 --> 00:25:22.880 me that, right, come on? And I ran him in and Entertainment 396 00:25:22.880 --> 00:25:26.400 Weekly the next day was a shot at him looking at me and you could 397 00:25:26.400 --> 00:25:30.960 see me in the corner like like this like really small, and nobody knew 398 00:25:32.000 --> 00:25:36.839 the context of it, but it was really crazy. And but I that 399 00:25:36.920 --> 00:25:37.960 could have been, like I could have been that guy. You know, 400 00:25:38.039 --> 00:25:41.519 that's everybody would have been talking about that. The next day, Russell knocks 401 00:25:41.559 --> 00:25:47.720 out a page on the red carpet. So in your new film, it's 402 00:25:47.759 --> 00:25:51.519 called get Away, if you can tell me the journey of this seven year 403 00:25:51.880 --> 00:25:56.440 because you know, I'm all about filmmakers making their movies and I know we're 404 00:25:56.480 --> 00:26:00.279 all nuts, you know we're crazy, But when you get to the seven 405 00:26:00.359 --> 00:26:03.759 year mark at a certain point, you just got to go, this is 406 00:26:03.799 --> 00:26:07.160 this? Really? Should I keep going? You know? You did you 407 00:26:07.200 --> 00:26:11.279 finance the how did you remortgage? Did you finance the house? Did you 408 00:26:11.319 --> 00:26:15.079 give me your first born? Like? What was it? What was the 409 00:26:15.160 --> 00:26:17.599 journey? Why did it take so long to get up up and running? 410 00:26:18.440 --> 00:26:22.680 Well? I had, you know, through all the screenwriting and nothing selling, 411 00:26:22.759 --> 00:26:25.839 through managers taking my scripts out. I wrote a script about The Donnor 412 00:26:25.920 --> 00:26:29.519 Party in my mid twenties. I had this like stupid goal that had to 413 00:26:29.519 --> 00:26:32.599 make a feature by thirty, you know, like of course, and I 414 00:26:32.640 --> 00:26:34.680 finally did with The Donnor Party. But instead of doing it on my own 415 00:26:34.759 --> 00:26:38.400 credit cards, I ended up taking other people's money, who then had final 416 00:26:38.440 --> 00:26:42.799 cut. So basically like, even though I put together the cast, we 417 00:26:42.880 --> 00:26:45.279 had Garry Oltman at one point wanting to do that movie, we had some 418 00:26:45.359 --> 00:26:49.640 really strong interests, but I gave up final cut and I didn't know how 419 00:26:49.880 --> 00:26:55.079 dark a place that would take me to to see producers making choices. It's 420 00:26:55.079 --> 00:26:56.759 all subjective, but that I did not agree with at all, and then 421 00:26:56.759 --> 00:27:00.599 have that movie come out and sell the show time and it was an early 422 00:27:00.599 --> 00:27:03.000 streamer on Netflix, so it did get a platform. But I was really 423 00:27:03.000 --> 00:27:06.319 disheartened, and I said, I'm never going to do that again. Even 424 00:27:06.319 --> 00:27:10.119 if a movie takes me thirty years, my next one is going to be 425 00:27:10.359 --> 00:27:12.519 one hundred percent. And I fell in love. I found the love of 426 00:27:12.559 --> 00:27:17.079 my life with the swoman Dominique, and she She's like the kind of person 427 00:27:17.160 --> 00:27:18.599 that I would watch a movie with and we would both get annoyed with the 428 00:27:18.640 --> 00:27:22.000 same plot lines and get excited about the same movies. So I thought, 429 00:27:22.000 --> 00:27:25.799 hey, like our taste really lines up. Like what if we just did 430 00:27:25.799 --> 00:27:30.400 a project together, travel the world, go to different islands, so it's 431 00:27:30.440 --> 00:27:34.559 not a total loss. Like the movie set mostly on this island off the 432 00:27:34.599 --> 00:27:37.599 coast of Chile, but we went to Kawai first. We did like a 433 00:27:37.720 --> 00:27:41.240 year of scouting, you know. And even if I have to put my 434 00:27:41.240 --> 00:27:45.039 own finances and take it lost, we don't have any children at this point, 435 00:27:45.079 --> 00:27:47.720 Like it's going to be a great life experience. And when we did 436 00:27:47.720 --> 00:27:49.880 the rough cut, it was just her and I and we submitted that seven 437 00:27:49.960 --> 00:27:53.400 years ago to Sundance and like right before they made their announcements, they got 438 00:27:53.440 --> 00:27:56.359 like one hundred views and we were like, oh, man, like Sundance 439 00:27:56.480 --> 00:28:00.839 is really considering our video, like and then we got a letter from the 440 00:28:00.880 --> 00:28:03.400 head at that time saying, hey, like you just missed it, Like, 441 00:28:03.960 --> 00:28:07.799 guys, like there's something here, don't give up on this project. 442 00:28:07.839 --> 00:28:11.359 And we were like, okay, cool. Like I had I had met 443 00:28:11.480 --> 00:28:14.079 Ed Harris to You're a Pollock at the Academy Awards, and I knew I 444 00:28:14.079 --> 00:28:17.079 could get him that footage. So I said, hey, like, what 445 00:28:17.119 --> 00:28:19.039 do you think of Ed Harris? And my wife was like The Abyss is 446 00:28:19.039 --> 00:28:22.599 my favorite movie, Like, let's do it. So we had to configure 447 00:28:22.880 --> 00:28:27.480 what we had shot to work at in but we had sent it to Ed 448 00:28:27.519 --> 00:28:32.200 and didn't hear anything for like four months, and finally I get this little 449 00:28:32.240 --> 00:28:34.000 handwritten letter saying, hey, guys, I got your link. I started 450 00:28:34.000 --> 00:28:37.799 watching your movie. I'm intrigued, but I can't figure out how the link 451 00:28:37.839 --> 00:28:40.680 works. Sent it to me again and we were like, oh my god, 452 00:28:40.720 --> 00:28:42.599 we have a chance. And he watched it and he said, hey, 453 00:28:42.599 --> 00:28:45.640 like, let's meet for breakfast next day. And after breakfast he said, 454 00:28:45.799 --> 00:28:48.400 I was meeting you to tell you I'm doing this show Westworld. So 455 00:28:48.440 --> 00:28:52.720 this was the first time he was and I won't have time to do it. 456 00:28:52.759 --> 00:28:55.559 But after meeting with you guys and seeing how you're going to fit my 457 00:28:55.640 --> 00:28:57.160 character in, I'm down. You just have to give me a year. 458 00:28:57.279 --> 00:29:00.519 So that was a full year of just waiting for him, you know, 459 00:29:02.200 --> 00:29:04.079 fair enough, but we were like, we have an icon now, like 460 00:29:04.119 --> 00:29:07.000 we have Ed. He's really supportive of division. He wouldn't have done it 461 00:29:07.039 --> 00:29:11.000 if we hadn't shot that stuff, you know. So we knew that we 462 00:29:11.079 --> 00:29:14.720 thought we had something special and Ed did too. So this encouragement kept us 463 00:29:14.759 --> 00:29:21.319 going. But when we cut the Ed cut, it fell so into the 464 00:29:21.400 --> 00:29:23.519 male energy, which we didn't want. We wanted it to be very balanced. 465 00:29:23.559 --> 00:29:27.519 So we had to find an actress to play Dominique's sister, and we 466 00:29:27.720 --> 00:29:32.559 actually she's from Argentina, so we ended up testing Martina Guzman, who's one 467 00:29:32.559 --> 00:29:36.160 of the top Argentine actresses and they have a really similar likes. But that 468 00:29:36.279 --> 00:29:40.160 took a long time because she has a Netflix she has two Netflix shows she 469 00:29:40.319 --> 00:29:42.599 does and she was into it. But again it was I think waiting about 470 00:29:42.599 --> 00:29:47.119 a year. So that's another year of waiting and then a whole editing process. 471 00:29:47.759 --> 00:29:51.119 And then it was only during the pandemic when Domie and I finally like 472 00:29:51.200 --> 00:29:53.000 said, hey, we agree with this cut. We had been through a 473 00:29:53.000 --> 00:29:57.000 lot of editors and we just we couldn't get the story to where we both 474 00:29:57.079 --> 00:30:03.079 felt it was everything it could be. We'll be right back after a word 475 00:30:03.119 --> 00:30:11.880 from our sponsor, and now back to the show. And during the pandemic 476 00:30:11.920 --> 00:30:15.000 we finally did. We had an editor named Ross who who really came in 477 00:30:15.079 --> 00:30:19.240 and talked to us quite a bit and worked with us, and we finally 478 00:30:19.240 --> 00:30:22.279 got it to where we said, hey, like, we're happy with this, 479 00:30:22.400 --> 00:30:25.640 let's let's take it to market. So after so what are you doing 480 00:30:25.680 --> 00:30:27.839 these seven years to survive? Brother? You're living in La right, I 481 00:30:27.839 --> 00:30:32.319 mean, like are you doing the page? You're not doing paid stuff anymore 482 00:30:32.319 --> 00:30:34.559 obviously, No, that was that's just a temporary job. Actually, it's 483 00:30:34.599 --> 00:30:37.880 a funny story. Man. The guy who I tested who was the best 484 00:30:37.960 --> 00:30:41.839 test screener, Like he could just he was like a term itlated. He 485 00:30:41.839 --> 00:30:45.079 would just go and get hundreds of people and he was my partner on the 486 00:30:45.160 --> 00:30:48.240 road. But he was like a total gambling at So we would go to 487 00:30:48.319 --> 00:30:52.200 Vegas for like long stretches. Adam Sandler love to test his movies at this 488 00:30:52.200 --> 00:30:56.440 place called Samstown, which is off the strip. It's like this, but 489 00:30:56.519 --> 00:30:57.720 it has an AMC in it, So he did all his movies there. 490 00:30:57.759 --> 00:31:00.680 So I'd be stuck in Vegas with gambling at it for weeks. I would 491 00:31:02.039 --> 00:31:04.200 go and you know, play blackjack with him every now and then and lose 492 00:31:04.200 --> 00:31:07.440 and just say, hey, I hate It's like I don't want to gamble 493 00:31:07.880 --> 00:31:08.960 at all, Like I'm not into it. And he said, well, 494 00:31:10.039 --> 00:31:11.519 why don't you try poker, man, Like you can really beat the game. 495 00:31:11.640 --> 00:31:15.039 And I said, really, I don't know much about poker. But 496 00:31:15.079 --> 00:31:18.440 it was starting to like blow up at that time, and because we had 497 00:31:18.480 --> 00:31:21.839 so much downtime, I started to read books on poker and it. You 498 00:31:21.880 --> 00:31:23.200 know, within a month or two, I was making double what I was 499 00:31:23.240 --> 00:31:27.119 making testing and I could make my own hours. So so you became a 500 00:31:27.160 --> 00:31:32.000 professional gambler. Yeah. This was like the early two thousands, and the 501 00:31:32.039 --> 00:31:34.400 games were just rich, like even in Hollywood. I would go up and 502 00:31:34.559 --> 00:31:38.400 actors wouldn't even know like anything about poker, and it was just like a 503 00:31:38.400 --> 00:31:41.599 free for all during that time. And I would just start going to like, 504 00:31:42.480 --> 00:31:45.440 I don't know, if you know the commerce, it's like the biggest 505 00:31:45.440 --> 00:31:48.000 poker room in the world. It's right off the five right, and hear 506 00:31:48.039 --> 00:31:52.319 in commerce like La was the home of poker even before Vegas. Yeah, 507 00:31:52.200 --> 00:31:56.839 so, I mean I just put all that into the film really and I 508 00:31:56.880 --> 00:31:59.079 thought, hey, it's funny. So so okay, I got it. 509 00:31:59.119 --> 00:32:00.279 I got it. Okay, us back up here for a second, because 510 00:32:00.319 --> 00:32:05.480 I've heard of I've heard a lot, man, I've I've done almost almost 511 00:32:05.559 --> 00:32:08.160 nine hundred of these at this point in my in my career here as a 512 00:32:08.200 --> 00:32:13.599 podcast or an interviewer. I've never heard. I've had professional gamblers on the 513 00:32:13.640 --> 00:32:16.920 show, some actors who actually became really good and they've got into the world 514 00:32:16.960 --> 00:32:21.599 series of actors of a poker Poker. Yeah, of poker, So I 515 00:32:22.319 --> 00:32:25.920 know of the world. But I've never heard of a filmmaker becoming a professional 516 00:32:25.960 --> 00:32:34.240 gambler and using that to survive and to make a movie with. Yeah. 517 00:32:34.279 --> 00:32:36.400 I mean for me, it's like, I'm not a gambler. That's why 518 00:32:36.400 --> 00:32:38.160 I'm so good at poker, Like the gamblers are why you make money. 519 00:32:38.200 --> 00:32:42.799 Like I'm just sitting there, I'm playing the odds. Your professional you're a 520 00:32:42.799 --> 00:32:47.400 professional poker player, not a professional gambler. All the all the the regulars 521 00:32:47.400 --> 00:32:51.359 would make fun of me because my wife would make me like an organic sandwich 522 00:32:51.400 --> 00:32:53.559 and I would take out my sandwich and listen to calm music and they would 523 00:32:53.599 --> 00:32:57.720 be like, you don't even try to pretend you're a gambler, and I 524 00:32:57.720 --> 00:33:00.000 wouldn't. I would just sit there for seven hours and eight for big hands, 525 00:33:00.000 --> 00:33:02.720 and at that time, I don't know if you still could be. 526 00:33:02.759 --> 00:33:06.880 I think everybody's gotten quite better at poker, but there are those that just 527 00:33:06.920 --> 00:33:08.480 blow off steam and want to gamble, and that's kind of what you're looking 528 00:33:08.599 --> 00:33:13.119 for. You go on Friday, Saturday, Sundays, and that's pretty fit, 529 00:33:13.119 --> 00:33:15.440 that's pretty fascinating. And then you would go back up with the hills 530 00:33:15.440 --> 00:33:17.119 and stuff like that, the actors houses and stuff. Yeah, I would, 531 00:33:17.119 --> 00:33:21.839 but you know, those those games can be quite dangerous, like I've 532 00:33:21.839 --> 00:33:24.279 had I've had a really famous actor that I used to play with, you 533 00:33:24.279 --> 00:33:28.400 know, rob at gunpoint at one of those games. Like people find out 534 00:33:28.440 --> 00:33:30.039 those games are going on and they can be robbed, and you know, 535 00:33:30.079 --> 00:33:35.279 you don't have like the safety of the casino to resolve disputes, you know, 536 00:33:35.440 --> 00:33:38.440 like actually got into a really really big fight, got thrown through a 537 00:33:38.480 --> 00:33:44.279 window and had to choke out this pretty well known actor over a poker dispute. 538 00:33:44.839 --> 00:33:51.279 We will we will discuss who that actor is off. Yeah you all 539 00:33:51.400 --> 00:33:52.759 like that. I say I choked him because he's kind of a tough guy. 540 00:33:52.839 --> 00:33:59.039 But it was either that or just kept pummeled to We'll tell Russell pro 541 00:33:59.119 --> 00:34:01.160 next time. You shouldn't be I just don't love joking. I'm joking. 542 00:34:01.440 --> 00:34:05.680 No, that's really that's really fascinating, man. I've never I've just never 543 00:34:05.759 --> 00:34:08.920 heard that. I've just never heard the filmmaker doing that. So that's yeah, 544 00:34:09.159 --> 00:34:13.480 do you filmmakers, filmmakers out there. I don't recommend this because you 545 00:34:13.480 --> 00:34:15.760 have to have a certain makeup. You have to like love chess, you 546 00:34:15.800 --> 00:34:17.519 have to love game theory. You can't be a gambling at it. You 547 00:34:17.519 --> 00:34:21.360 will just lose all your money. You have to, just like anything, 548 00:34:21.360 --> 00:34:22.880 put in the work. You know, I read five of the top books 549 00:34:22.880 --> 00:34:27.920 of the time before even do you do you still do it? Yeah? 550 00:34:28.000 --> 00:34:32.920 You know sometimes, but you know the movies now kicking in where we're hoping 551 00:34:32.960 --> 00:34:40.280 that keeps me off the table. I mean, that's fascinating because I mean 552 00:34:40.480 --> 00:34:45.480 I understood that Poker is you know, a game that you can kind of 553 00:34:45.559 --> 00:34:50.199 understand and it's there's there is some chance. But if you're looking at how 554 00:34:50.239 --> 00:34:53.480 the how the table is being laid out, you can you can actually it's 555 00:34:53.480 --> 00:34:57.280 it's you can actually make it a go of it. I'll be a profession 556 00:34:57.280 --> 00:35:00.360 out of it. Yeah, And after a while you develop a data so 557 00:35:00.400 --> 00:35:04.599 you see like you have an edge even higher than the house edge that Biggas 558 00:35:04.679 --> 00:35:08.480 has over the gambers, like ten to fifteen percent edge and the good games 559 00:35:08.480 --> 00:35:12.559 that can go even higher. So it's just like if you know what you're 560 00:35:12.559 --> 00:35:15.440 doing, it's just you know, there's there's no losing because you just have 561 00:35:15.480 --> 00:35:19.360 to put in volume to cover the losses. But any night, you know, 562 00:35:19.400 --> 00:35:21.800 you get aces, you get it all in and you lose. You 563 00:35:21.880 --> 00:35:23.079 got to be cool with these people when they do that, because that's how 564 00:35:23.079 --> 00:35:28.480 you're making money. You can't get frustrated with people for breaking your good hands. 565 00:35:28.480 --> 00:35:30.880 You know, that's that's that's why you're making money at it. That's 566 00:35:30.920 --> 00:35:35.079 fascinating, dude, So you got it. So I want to talk to 567 00:35:35.119 --> 00:35:38.559 you about as a director, you've got Ed Harris on set, who's an 568 00:35:38.639 --> 00:35:44.679 absolute legend. There's a you know, in the trailer alone of your film, 569 00:35:45.000 --> 00:35:49.840 there's some intense scenes with Ed Yeah, where he is yelling at you 570 00:35:50.880 --> 00:35:54.719 only the way Ed Harris can yell on screen. He's such a great yell. 571 00:35:54.880 --> 00:35:58.440 Oh my god, that's great. Right. How can you cast him 572 00:35:58.480 --> 00:36:00.440 and not get some anger out of it? Like when he like that? 573 00:36:00.480 --> 00:36:02.159 When I when I heard that, I'm like, oh my god, it's 574 00:36:02.199 --> 00:36:06.920 the rock, oh rock, Like it's just like the yelling. So that 575 00:36:07.280 --> 00:36:13.719 so one, how do you approach directing an icon like that who's honestly coming 576 00:36:13.760 --> 00:36:17.079 down from the Mount Hollywood and doing a little indie film because he kind of 577 00:36:17.119 --> 00:36:20.079 you know, I enjoy it. I think we could do some cool stuff 578 00:36:20.079 --> 00:36:22.639 here. But he's doing it out of just truly love. So it's not 579 00:36:22.679 --> 00:36:29.400 like he's getting a paycheck out of this major paycheck approach directing, you know, 580 00:36:29.719 --> 00:36:31.519 an actor of that caliber. Well, what I loved about it is 581 00:36:31.519 --> 00:36:36.400 he directed Pollock and he started it himself, So he's like really sympathetic to 582 00:36:36.440 --> 00:36:38.920 our journey as independent filmmakers. He volunteers at the Sundayance Labs every year. 583 00:36:38.960 --> 00:36:45.440 He's He's really a good soul of support. But you know, as far 584 00:36:45.440 --> 00:36:47.280 as having him on set, I was really glad that I was playing a 585 00:36:47.280 --> 00:36:52.039 submissive character to him because I could feed into that energy as an actor. 586 00:36:52.159 --> 00:36:55.599 There was one really key scene in the office, like very close to where, 587 00:36:57.159 --> 00:36:59.719 and I hope Ed won't mind me telling the stories that really helped the 588 00:36:59.719 --> 00:37:02.480 scene become better. And I was super nervous and I'm saying action and he's 589 00:37:02.480 --> 00:37:06.280 not coming, and I'm like, oh man, this is the big scene. 590 00:37:06.360 --> 00:37:07.440 Is he even hearing me? And it's like a minute goes by, 591 00:37:07.480 --> 00:37:10.320 two minutes ago by I say action again, and then all I hear is 592 00:37:10.400 --> 00:37:15.159 I hear you, motherfucker. And he comes bareling in and does the scene. 593 00:37:15.239 --> 00:37:20.760 So the reaction you see is not just acting. It's like he shocked 594 00:37:20.760 --> 00:37:23.360 me into the emotion that was needed to that scene. And afterwards he smiled 595 00:37:23.400 --> 00:37:25.079 and he said was that cool? And I was like, Yeah, that 596 00:37:25.159 --> 00:37:29.000 was awesome. Man. I looked at the footage and that was what we 597 00:37:29.039 --> 00:37:32.000 had used. And he wasn't afraid to take those kind of chances, and 598 00:37:32.360 --> 00:37:35.719 you know, we were open to them. We had like worked on the 599 00:37:35.760 --> 00:37:38.360 script a lot at his house, but he knew it needed something that felt 600 00:37:38.800 --> 00:37:44.559 felt stale a bit, you know, and he injected that energy into the 601 00:37:44.559 --> 00:37:46.039 scene. And I really thank him for it, because that's what you're saying, 602 00:37:46.079 --> 00:37:50.320 that yelling scene. That look on my face is not just acting, 603 00:37:50.400 --> 00:37:53.960 you know, it's doing it. Yeah, and me being like, holy, 604 00:37:54.039 --> 00:37:58.480 like I didn't know if like I shouldn't say action like I would like 605 00:37:58.519 --> 00:38:01.000 my brain was just doing a millionferent things and that was the energy that was 606 00:38:01.079 --> 00:38:04.800 needed for that scene. So I thought that was really generous of him. 607 00:38:04.880 --> 00:38:07.639 And you know, he's he's a good guy. Like for him to play 608 00:38:07.679 --> 00:38:13.599 this character too, that is a bit controversial in this political time period. 609 00:38:14.159 --> 00:38:17.719 You know what what was was generous of him because he's not like that at 610 00:38:17.719 --> 00:38:21.880 all in real life. Like he's so supportive and cool and he I mean, 611 00:38:21.920 --> 00:38:24.000 he's I mean, it's you're releasing the film on the tail end of 612 00:38:24.320 --> 00:38:30.159 one of the biggest movies of the last the Last, and he's in it. 613 00:38:30.239 --> 00:38:32.920 He's in Top Gun and he plays he's just so good man, he's 614 00:38:32.960 --> 00:38:39.280 just so good, so good he just choose up the scenery with his performances 615 00:38:39.320 --> 00:38:44.719 and I mean he's just remarked he's just a remarkable actor. Is there anything 616 00:38:44.760 --> 00:38:49.199 that you took away from him as as a as a creative From an acting 617 00:38:49.239 --> 00:38:52.440 standpoint, I learned so much because I acted when I was younger, but 618 00:38:52.480 --> 00:38:54.440 I was never a big into like driving across town to audition. I just 619 00:38:54.440 --> 00:38:59.079 thought it was such a lottery ticket that I've had friends become successful at it, 620 00:38:59.119 --> 00:39:01.480 but they really put in the time, and I much rather write or 621 00:39:01.800 --> 00:39:06.119 do projects on my own. But what Ed does that I found really helpful 622 00:39:06.199 --> 00:39:08.559 is he actually does the scene before the scene of the movie, so through 623 00:39:08.599 --> 00:39:12.760 improv, he wants to like play that scene out so he knows how to 624 00:39:12.800 --> 00:39:15.360 go into that scene. So when we did the dinner scene, like we 625 00:39:15.360 --> 00:39:17.880 say, oh, hey, Dad, how are you making steak? Come 626 00:39:17.920 --> 00:39:22.079 in? So we kind of like lead up to that scene and that that 627 00:39:22.199 --> 00:39:24.159 was really helpful to make sure when you're in the scene, it's not just 628 00:39:24.159 --> 00:39:29.079 figuring it out, Like you've already come to that energy and I haven't set 629 00:39:29.360 --> 00:39:32.280 but yeah, oh really, so you like like you yell action or you 630 00:39:32.400 --> 00:39:36.239 like work it before the scene. No, just in a casual kind of 631 00:39:36.280 --> 00:39:38.400 way. So it was like, hey, like what happened five minutes before 632 00:39:38.440 --> 00:39:43.199 we get into the scene and we do like a little improvisational exercise. And 633 00:39:43.239 --> 00:39:45.559 I find that really helpful because then when you get to the scene, like 634 00:39:45.599 --> 00:39:49.599 the energy is already built to there. You're not just like starting full scratch. 635 00:39:49.800 --> 00:39:52.599 Yeah, and it doesn't take that much It doesn't take that much time. 636 00:39:52.800 --> 00:39:58.199 And ed it must have developed that technique somewhere and we'll be right back 637 00:39:58.320 --> 00:40:06.800 after a word from our sponsor and now back to the show. That's something 638 00:40:06.800 --> 00:40:08.400 I'll take with me forever. I thought that was a really good way to 639 00:40:08.400 --> 00:40:13.800 go. I've never heard of that technique. That's a really really good technique 640 00:40:13.800 --> 00:40:16.519 thinking about that, because a lot of times you as a drugon action and 641 00:40:16.559 --> 00:40:22.320 you're just like like start looking at each other like like you've got to rev 642 00:40:22.400 --> 00:40:24.679 yourself up to it. So at least if you have some context of what 643 00:40:24.719 --> 00:40:30.559 happens before and after the scene, yeah, and you're not like nailed down 644 00:40:30.599 --> 00:40:32.960 to like the reality of the script, right because you're just improvising the energy 645 00:40:32.960 --> 00:40:36.280 of it. You know, you're not shooting them. So it's like a 646 00:40:36.360 --> 00:40:38.920 kind of a free, fun exercise. And that's something man, that was 647 00:40:38.920 --> 00:40:42.320 great. I mean, working with him was just so good because he's a 648 00:40:42.320 --> 00:40:46.679 filmmaker too, so he's constantly seeing it from that side. And I had 649 00:40:46.679 --> 00:40:50.840 a great time on the dinner party. Of the actors were more like into 650 00:40:50.880 --> 00:40:53.840 the idea of my character this that, which is typically how you go and 651 00:40:53.880 --> 00:40:58.039 I came away from that with a much different experience, like I only want 652 00:40:58.039 --> 00:41:00.920 to work with people who really get the overall wanted the story, that you 653 00:41:00.000 --> 00:41:05.400 can talk with deeply about the themes and ideas and not just their character, 654 00:41:05.559 --> 00:41:08.960 but how it all relates to the greater, greater whole. That's fantastic. 655 00:41:09.039 --> 00:41:13.280 Now as directors, I asked this question often on the show. You know, 656 00:41:13.280 --> 00:41:15.719 as directors, we all have that day that the entire world has come 657 00:41:15.800 --> 00:41:19.800 down crashing around us. It's usually every day, but there's the one day. 658 00:41:20.599 --> 00:41:23.079 What was that day for you and how did you overcome it? Oh? 659 00:41:23.159 --> 00:41:27.559 Man? Well, we shot on this island called Robinson Crusoe, which 660 00:41:27.840 --> 00:41:32.199 we as filmmakers talked this guy into giving us or renting us their yachts and 661 00:41:32.280 --> 00:41:36.639 getting and told the captain, hey, yeah, we can handle open. 662 00:41:36.719 --> 00:41:38.840 See like we've never done it before, but I'm sure we'll be fine in 663 00:41:38.880 --> 00:41:42.840 two days. I mean, it was like a four day journey and about 664 00:41:43.000 --> 00:41:45.960 half an hour in, I wanted to start shooting right away in our editor's 665 00:41:45.960 --> 00:41:51.039 face just like turns completely white. And by the end of the by the 666 00:41:51.079 --> 00:41:53.719 midpoint, he was coughing up blood and it was very scary, and I 667 00:41:53.800 --> 00:41:57.159 just thought, oh my god, I'm actually like, people are going to 668 00:41:57.239 --> 00:42:00.000 die in a movie like this is a disaster. And by the time we 669 00:42:00.039 --> 00:42:02.679 got to the island, we had already crossed the halfway point, so we 670 00:42:02.719 --> 00:42:06.239 couldn't turn back. So as soon as he hits land, he gets to 671 00:42:06.280 --> 00:42:08.159 a phone and he calls me, calls his girlfriend and Buenisarius, and he 672 00:42:08.199 --> 00:42:12.400 says, I'm so sorry for everything I've done. My life flashed before my 673 00:42:12.400 --> 00:42:15.920 eyes. I'm going to be a better man. And the whole energy of 674 00:42:15.159 --> 00:42:20.880 us, our crew, our small crew going through that just made everything a 675 00:42:20.920 --> 00:42:25.239 breeze because people really had like this profound sea journey, you know that they 676 00:42:25.320 --> 00:42:30.400 really thought like maybe they wouldn't come out of it. So so that was 677 00:42:30.440 --> 00:42:32.280 a very scary day. I mean, if I think if we hadn't crossed 678 00:42:32.280 --> 00:42:36.880 the halfway threshold, we might have it turned back and certainly wouldn't have the 679 00:42:36.920 --> 00:42:40.920 movie that we do have. And I have to ask you man, because 680 00:42:42.039 --> 00:42:45.000 you know, being doing an independent film is tough enough, but you decided 681 00:42:45.000 --> 00:42:49.800 to do it in nature. Yeah, you decided to go on boats in 682 00:42:49.840 --> 00:42:54.639 an island and and then and going underwater and surfing and all this kind of 683 00:42:54.679 --> 00:43:00.320 stuff like, yeah, you don't do If Jaws taught us anything is don't 684 00:43:00.360 --> 00:43:02.639 shoot on the ocean. I mean that they didn't mean come on, So 685 00:43:04.480 --> 00:43:07.639 how was what was that like on a limited budget? I mean it was 686 00:43:07.639 --> 00:43:10.360 a struggle. But that's the kind of stuff we'd love to do in life. 687 00:43:10.519 --> 00:43:13.920 I mean, not to that extent we now know, like the voting 688 00:43:14.239 --> 00:43:15.639 part is not a fantasy of ours. But we thought, if we're going 689 00:43:15.679 --> 00:43:19.519 to pay for a film, like, let's have these experiences that we'd like 690 00:43:19.559 --> 00:43:22.320 to have in real life as a couple together, and then we'll make a 691 00:43:22.320 --> 00:43:25.800 film too. So even if the film doesn't have any success, will have 692 00:43:25.840 --> 00:43:30.039 had these amazing experiences. And I love being outside, I love surfing. 693 00:43:30.079 --> 00:43:34.119 My wife is an advanced scuba diverse So all that stuff you see with the 694 00:43:34.159 --> 00:43:38.440 seals is all one hundred realistic. Did you get the seal? Did you 695 00:43:38.480 --> 00:43:43.199 get the seals in? Did you fly those in? From la We had 696 00:43:43.199 --> 00:43:45.000 a seal wrangler. You know. We actually had a local guy that was 697 00:43:45.039 --> 00:43:47.440 like, yeah, the seals bite people all the time, so that was 698 00:43:47.480 --> 00:43:52.639 like the extent of our wrangling was like, Okay, let's go for it. 699 00:43:52.840 --> 00:43:57.280 This is the insanity of being an artist, and especially the insanity of 700 00:43:57.320 --> 00:44:04.599 being a filmmaker. Like a filmmaker, normal people don't do this. We 701 00:44:04.599 --> 00:44:07.800 were also able and filmmakers can maybe other filmmakers can benefit from this. We 702 00:44:07.800 --> 00:44:12.559 were able to take from Argentina some of the most talented people of the Argentine 703 00:44:12.559 --> 00:44:15.920 industry and their rates are just not Hollywood rates. So you're getting a guy 704 00:44:15.960 --> 00:44:20.599 and my guy, Lucino, he shot forty fifty movies that are good movies 705 00:44:20.639 --> 00:44:24.360 in Argentina, been to festivals all around the world. But you're getting a 706 00:44:24.480 --> 00:44:28.519 much different rate than Hollywood union rates. So we were able to keep the 707 00:44:28.519 --> 00:44:30.760 budget low. And I'm I'm sure any country that makes films, probably in 708 00:44:30.760 --> 00:44:35.559 India, you can also find talented people. Know, you can look outside 709 00:44:35.559 --> 00:44:38.559 the Hollywood channels. Absolutely, I know a lot of filmmakers who have done 710 00:44:38.559 --> 00:44:42.599 that shooting outside and that there's a lot of talented grew around this world. 711 00:44:42.599 --> 00:44:46.519 Doesn't always have to be Hollywood other than seal wranglers. You need from Hollywood 712 00:44:46.559 --> 00:44:51.320 without question. And the financing of the film was also financed by you. 713 00:44:51.800 --> 00:44:53.039 Yeah, it was all self. When we got ahead, we had to 714 00:44:53.039 --> 00:44:58.639 go sag. So we actually took on some executive producers, but the same 715 00:44:58.679 --> 00:45:00.800 problems started to happen where they're on it to even though they promised to say 716 00:45:00.840 --> 00:45:06.079 we won't have any creative input, it's just the nature of when you take 717 00:45:06.119 --> 00:45:08.480 money from someone, you you have to invite that. And this project wasn't 718 00:45:08.519 --> 00:45:12.559 that. It was a passion project for my wife and I, so it 719 00:45:12.599 --> 00:45:16.039 wasn't one that they could kind of massage into being too much of a thriller 720 00:45:16.280 --> 00:45:20.639 or this. So we ended up buying them out once once we knew like 721 00:45:20.719 --> 00:45:22.320 we were going to kind of put out the movie, and you know, 722 00:45:22.400 --> 00:45:24.920 in a way that we weren't getting like a ton of money up front, 723 00:45:25.400 --> 00:45:29.360 because that's still what a lot of producers want, even though that's very rare. 724 00:45:29.599 --> 00:45:31.599 I learned that from your show like Donner Party, I think was like 725 00:45:31.639 --> 00:45:35.400 a quarter million dollars up front, you know, so that at least what 726 00:45:35.559 --> 00:45:38.960 year was that what you Yeah, exactly so, but producers still think that's 727 00:45:39.000 --> 00:45:42.119 going to happen now. And from your show, I learned like, not 728 00:45:42.159 --> 00:45:45.480 only you don't want that, because you want an honest distributor and you want 729 00:45:45.519 --> 00:45:49.559 your ceiling to be much higher than that. And if your movie catches on 730 00:45:49.639 --> 00:45:52.719 and you have eighty percent of it, like you can still stand to do 731 00:45:52.719 --> 00:45:54.679 do really, by the way, out of that quarter million for Donner Party, 732 00:45:54.719 --> 00:45:59.719 how much more did you get after that? I get nothing, exactly 733 00:46:00.320 --> 00:46:02.280 gave that's the game. They're like, yeah, we're buying your movie for 734 00:46:02.280 --> 00:46:06.519 two We're not telling you were buying it, but we're gonna still just that's 735 00:46:06.559 --> 00:46:08.000 all you'll ever see. Yeah, And I didn't even have a point on 736 00:46:08.039 --> 00:46:12.239 it. It was just like a four higher job, even though I basically 737 00:46:12.599 --> 00:46:15.000 did a lot of the producing and I just totally didn't want to work that 738 00:46:15.039 --> 00:46:19.880 way again. It's like part of this learn the beauty of this industry is 739 00:46:19.880 --> 00:46:22.800 freedom for me. You know, I love making my own projects, and 740 00:46:22.840 --> 00:46:24.360 even if they don't sell or I don't get a chance to make a big 741 00:46:24.400 --> 00:46:29.559 studio movie, like, it's fun. Like it's an exciting and fun to 742 00:46:29.639 --> 00:46:35.719 do art and craft and story and the Hollywood interaction can be very disheartening at 743 00:46:35.760 --> 00:46:39.039 times, you know, it's mostly rejection. Yeah. I try to keep 744 00:46:39.079 --> 00:46:45.280 my creative very separate, and over the years my ratio of like pursuing the 745 00:46:45.280 --> 00:46:47.480 industry has gone way down, just for mental health, you know. So 746 00:46:47.559 --> 00:46:51.400 the more I'm creative, the more I'm doing this. And even if it's 747 00:46:51.440 --> 00:46:53.599 just a hobby, which I hope it's not, it's fun, you know. 748 00:46:54.760 --> 00:46:59.719 Now, how did you get the distribution? Well, we had a 749 00:46:59.760 --> 00:47:07.320 great lawyer. He's like started out on Monster and rather than then tried to 750 00:47:07.360 --> 00:47:10.960 showcase at festivals, he had given me the distributors that were doing very well 751 00:47:12.039 --> 00:47:17.760 during the pandemic and giving his clients accurate payoffs you mean money, actually paying 752 00:47:17.800 --> 00:47:21.039 their clients. Yeah, and not like a little bit of money, like 753 00:47:21.079 --> 00:47:23.280 a lot of money. And these are like indie films with one or two 754 00:47:23.320 --> 00:47:27.320 known guys, and this was his top one. And he said, do 755 00:47:27.320 --> 00:47:29.840 you mind if I just share the cut with Brainstorm? And I said, 756 00:47:29.880 --> 00:47:31.320 yeah, yeah, sure, I'd like to go straight to distribution. I 757 00:47:31.360 --> 00:47:35.840 don't want to do this whole journey of trying to get into a great fest 758 00:47:35.880 --> 00:47:37.519 and sell it that way. And they liked it, and they said, 759 00:47:37.559 --> 00:47:39.559 hey, like skip it all let's just put it out and see what happened. 760 00:47:39.559 --> 00:47:44.320 So we were like, right on, let's do it, let's put 761 00:47:44.320 --> 00:47:47.639 it out, and we just depressed and some people the first waves were pretty 762 00:47:47.679 --> 00:47:52.159 negative, but now we're getting some braves, some people really responding to it. 763 00:47:52.239 --> 00:47:55.079 So I think over the years we'll find our audience and at least if 764 00:47:55.079 --> 00:47:58.960 you get some percentage of people loving your film, that can be a lot, 765 00:47:59.039 --> 00:48:01.440 especially for an indie. And where can people see it? Well, 766 00:48:01.440 --> 00:48:05.639 it's on Apple TV, now it's on Prime, and then we'll find a 767 00:48:05.679 --> 00:48:08.440 streaming home down the road. I'm interested because of your show also on this 768 00:48:08.920 --> 00:48:14.239 ad revenue. Yeah, AVAD seems to be a way to make sense. 769 00:48:14.239 --> 00:48:16.079 So I'm sure we'll do that and then we'll end up, I'm sure at 770 00:48:16.079 --> 00:48:20.360 some point with a streamer in a more long term kind of deal. I 771 00:48:20.400 --> 00:48:23.079 mean, there's no question that this kind of film will do very well with 772 00:48:23.119 --> 00:48:27.519 AVAD because it got it. Oh No, there's no question. You put 773 00:48:27.679 --> 00:48:31.679 Ed's face on the thumbnail and people are flying by and they're gonna he's so 774 00:48:31.800 --> 00:48:36.519 popular because of West World. He's just a legend because of who he is. 775 00:48:37.000 --> 00:48:40.039 You put his face on there with YouTube on there in the background, 776 00:48:40.039 --> 00:48:45.760 but it's and center sell him yeah, and you a thumbnail going by. 777 00:48:45.920 --> 00:48:47.800 And I always tell people this, what do you do when you're watching, 778 00:48:47.880 --> 00:48:52.639 when you're going on Friday night you're screaming, You're going through your streamer, 779 00:48:52.679 --> 00:48:59.480 whether it's HBO or Amazon or Netflix or Hulu or whatever. What do you 780 00:48:59.559 --> 00:49:04.760 do you scan? And when do you stop? Either when you find something 781 00:49:04.800 --> 00:49:07.000 that's in a niche that you absolutely adore. So if you're a surfer, 782 00:49:07.000 --> 00:49:10.719 you're going to watch a surfing documentary or surfing movie. If you're a skateboarder 783 00:49:10.840 --> 00:49:15.440 or things like that, those things might attract you, but generally it's a 784 00:49:15.519 --> 00:49:21.440 known face that you're like, Okay, I know because there's so much gluttony 785 00:49:21.440 --> 00:49:27.800 of product in the world right now that for me even to try for five 786 00:49:27.880 --> 00:49:31.119 minutes to try something that I'm not knowing, like, I don't know switch, 787 00:49:31.159 --> 00:49:35.159 I do the same thing exactly, but I got to the point where 788 00:49:35.159 --> 00:49:37.719 I don't even try unless it's something I've heard about or I feel about. 789 00:49:38.159 --> 00:49:44.320 So that's why Adam Sandler has three picture one hundred million dollar deals every few 790 00:49:44.400 --> 00:49:47.719 years. Because Netflix knows that when you're there on a Friday night and I've 791 00:49:47.719 --> 00:49:52.599 done it. Man. I look, I love Adam Sandler films. I 792 00:49:52.599 --> 00:49:59.320 think they're fun, they're escapist, they're they're dumb and ridiculous and they're funny 793 00:49:59.360 --> 00:50:02.960 and they just they're just what they are. We'll be right back after a 794 00:50:02.960 --> 00:50:12.119 word from our sponsor, and now back to the show. Yeah. There, 795 00:50:12.159 --> 00:50:14.599 they are what they are. They know what they are, and they 796 00:50:14.599 --> 00:50:19.039 try not to be anything else but totally. And when there's a Kevin James, 797 00:50:19.079 --> 00:50:22.599 a David Spade, a Chris Rock it was his name, the other 798 00:50:22.639 --> 00:50:29.079 guy from Bigelow, those guys, all the cats, ruption that are all 799 00:50:29.119 --> 00:50:32.880 the characters that are in the Adam Sandler universe. Sure, when you're scanning 800 00:50:32.880 --> 00:50:36.639 and you're like, oh, this is new Adam Sandler movie, I know 801 00:50:36.719 --> 00:50:42.840 what I'm gonna get because it's safe totally. You know, you rarely watch 802 00:50:42.880 --> 00:50:45.840 it unless you watch something like Hustle, which was the new Adam Sandler movie. 803 00:50:45.840 --> 00:50:49.400 When he's a it's a drama, I love it. Yeah, I 804 00:50:49.519 --> 00:50:52.559 love he's a recruiter. I love what he does, like uncut jams to 805 00:50:52.639 --> 00:50:54.599 it. And of course the one who did Paul Thomas Sanderson like when he 806 00:50:54.760 --> 00:50:59.519 ventures into that he probably loses song of his core audience, but you can 807 00:50:59.559 --> 00:51:01.320 tell like he's really going for it. He's a great hitor too, and 808 00:51:01.360 --> 00:51:05.039 he actually could play basketball. From what I understand, he's like a real 809 00:51:05.119 --> 00:51:07.679 like he actually played basketball. I heard he has a he has a court 810 00:51:07.719 --> 00:51:12.400 at his house and it's like a little Hollywood game that goes h Yeah. 811 00:51:12.719 --> 00:51:15.280 But when I was testing Adam movies, like the audience when you would come 812 00:51:15.320 --> 00:51:19.360 to them with an Adam Semi movie, their face would just light up with 813 00:51:19.480 --> 00:51:23.679 good vibes. So he earns that money because a certain percentage of our entire 814 00:51:23.719 --> 00:51:29.199 country and world just loved the guy. You know, like he someone's watching 815 00:51:29.280 --> 00:51:31.159 him as much as he might be trashed out there like oh it's an Adam 816 00:51:31.239 --> 00:51:37.280 sadly go f yourself, guys, someone's watching him. Yeah, And critical 817 00:51:37.320 --> 00:51:40.000 response is so long. I mean they've they've missed it on so many great 818 00:51:40.039 --> 00:51:45.480 classic movies. The first critical wave is very negative and it takes years, 819 00:51:45.480 --> 00:51:49.239 and Adam is going to go down as one of the top guys like Jerry 820 00:51:49.320 --> 00:51:53.320 Lewis, you know, like an icon of comedy, no matter how how 821 00:51:53.320 --> 00:51:58.320 the reviews were at the time, And you have to ask do reviews even 822 00:51:58.400 --> 00:52:01.599 matter anymore. I don't think so. They don't. They don't have the 823 00:52:01.920 --> 00:52:10.639 like the Roger Eber or time those thumbs could destroy a movie or or make 824 00:52:10.719 --> 00:52:15.039 make or break a movie. And then the time of any cool news when 825 00:52:15.039 --> 00:52:17.599 that was a real sight that did a lot of big stuff. I mean, 826 00:52:17.639 --> 00:52:22.199 they destroyed Batman versus Robin like they they took down an entire studio movie 827 00:52:22.400 --> 00:52:28.159 because of what they did they said about it. These these days, there's 828 00:52:28.199 --> 00:52:32.320 too much content moving too fast exactly. You'd love for to get the tomato, 829 00:52:32.519 --> 00:52:36.199 But great movies don't get the tomato because the tomato is easy. It's 830 00:52:36.199 --> 00:52:39.039 almost like systemliber thumbs up, thumb down. You get, it's like, 831 00:52:39.119 --> 00:52:44.039 okay, it's interesting, right, and even then how many I mean, 832 00:52:45.239 --> 00:52:46.840 yeah, it's nice. Look one hundred percent fresh. We all want one 833 00:52:46.880 --> 00:52:52.840 hundred percent fresh in our movies. Yeah, but generally speaking, it doesn't 834 00:52:52.960 --> 00:52:55.400 who like, it doesn't matter. Yeah, it's not. It didn't. 835 00:52:55.480 --> 00:52:59.440 It doesn't have to sway. I mean, people used to sit there and 836 00:52:59.480 --> 00:53:05.199 listen to Jean Siskel and Roger Ebert and whatever they said exactly moved the box 837 00:53:05.280 --> 00:53:07.280 office. They were they were our friends, right, They felt like friends 838 00:53:07.280 --> 00:53:10.840 of you who were talking movies to you, like that's how I felt growing 839 00:53:10.920 --> 00:53:14.559 up. So when they really went and you could see the energy, it 840 00:53:14.599 --> 00:53:16.880 was like I have to see that. So but yeah, there's no reviewer 841 00:53:16.920 --> 00:53:21.519 now I think that commands that level. No, No, there's not even 842 00:53:21.519 --> 00:53:24.960 a website that really has that kind of juice other than Rotten Tomatoes, which 843 00:53:25.000 --> 00:53:29.800 is just basically a bunch of critics. Yeah, it's just aggregate. Really 844 00:53:30.000 --> 00:53:31.840 yeah, and then the audience, it's like it's a weird it's I don't 845 00:53:31.880 --> 00:53:36.159 know, I don't know. But anyway, we had we had one five 846 00:53:36.199 --> 00:53:38.599 star that didn't even get to Rotten Tomatoes. And I'm trying to get this 847 00:53:38.719 --> 00:53:42.760 five star review there, and he reviews for a major newspaper, but for 848 00:53:42.800 --> 00:53:45.400 some reason, he's not a sanctioned Rotten Tomatoes viewer. But it's a shame 849 00:53:45.400 --> 00:53:47.719 because it was like a dude who really fell in love with Get it right 850 00:53:47.760 --> 00:53:52.960 if you can, that's awesome. These are the frustrations of filmmakers. I 851 00:53:53.000 --> 00:53:55.440 got a five star review, I can't put it up by a major newspaper. 852 00:53:55.519 --> 00:54:00.199 What that exactly? So I'm going to ask you a few questions. 853 00:54:00.039 --> 00:54:01.280 All of my guests, if you've listened to the show. You know what 854 00:54:01.320 --> 00:54:06.079 these are, so you better be prepared. I do, what advice would 855 00:54:06.079 --> 00:54:09.639 you give a filmmaker trying to get break into the business today, I would 856 00:54:09.639 --> 00:54:13.119 say, fall in love with the process, you know, like, don't 857 00:54:13.199 --> 00:54:15.360 let the negativity can get in you. And I've seen it happen to so 858 00:54:15.440 --> 00:54:20.360 many people, and really not only like spoil your journey in this business, 859 00:54:20.480 --> 00:54:22.519 but spoil your life in a way. And if you fall in love with 860 00:54:22.599 --> 00:54:27.119 creativity and writing and you keep that separate from the business. And I'm not 861 00:54:27.159 --> 00:54:30.440 saying don't put all the hustle you have into doing it, but really fall 862 00:54:30.480 --> 00:54:32.119 in love with that process and don't let anybody take that from me, be 863 00:54:32.119 --> 00:54:37.840 it writing, directing, acting, Like you can do those things on the 864 00:54:37.920 --> 00:54:40.480 cheap and have it not be related to your success financially. And I think 865 00:54:40.519 --> 00:54:45.440 that that's been a key for me and something I would recommend to every creative 866 00:54:45.480 --> 00:54:49.800 person. Now, what is the lesson that took you the longest to learn, 867 00:54:49.800 --> 00:54:52.920 whether in the film business or in life. Work with good people. 868 00:54:53.000 --> 00:54:58.199 Man, even if even if man, I know how hard it is. 869 00:54:58.360 --> 00:55:00.599 But if you take money, as you know from taking money from the mob, 870 00:55:00.960 --> 00:55:08.119 it's not fit ll. I know, Hoche, I know how hard 871 00:55:08.159 --> 00:55:12.039 it is because it's a sign you just want the money to do your project. 872 00:55:12.079 --> 00:55:15.719 But if you put those blunders on, you can really screw up your 873 00:55:15.840 --> 00:55:21.119 life or be killed. Literally. Yes, sir as, my book has 874 00:55:21.239 --> 00:55:24.079 a very how not to follow your filmmaking dream is I like to call it? 875 00:55:24.559 --> 00:55:28.039 Yeah, exactly. So if you work with good people, you end 876 00:55:28.079 --> 00:55:31.519 up happy and that's nice. And three of your favorite films of all time. 877 00:55:32.159 --> 00:55:35.280 This one is a tough one because I was going to tell you you 878 00:55:35.360 --> 00:55:37.480 should have a podcast just where you asked this question. It could be like 879 00:55:37.559 --> 00:55:42.039 five, bring up all your favorite guests and just talk about this. But 880 00:55:42.119 --> 00:55:45.840 because I'm writing like a bigger budget thriller, I've been studying thriller. So 881 00:55:45.840 --> 00:55:47.880 I'm just going to give you the top thrillers of all time. And first 882 00:55:49.039 --> 00:55:52.639 is the sixth Sense, because I don't know if people now realize how big 883 00:55:52.679 --> 00:55:55.599 that twist was. That's all anybody in film was talking about, was this 884 00:55:55.639 --> 00:56:01.199 twist to capture an audience's imagination with a twist like It's just I've been studying 885 00:56:01.199 --> 00:56:05.239 the script, reading it, seeing how it's been worked in, so I 886 00:56:05.239 --> 00:56:09.159 would say that's that's one two thousand and one, because it's I'm writing a 887 00:56:09.159 --> 00:56:13.639 sci fi thriller and that's got the science, but it's also got the thriller 888 00:56:13.679 --> 00:56:16.360 aspect, you know, the man versus technology, and it's just so beautiful, 889 00:56:16.360 --> 00:56:21.079 like you can learn something new about it each time you watch it. 890 00:56:21.159 --> 00:56:24.480 And my all time favorite thriller is Hitchcock's Rear Window, and I've heard it's 891 00:56:24.559 --> 00:56:30.960 just impactably put together, beautiful cast, everything relates to the story. And 892 00:56:30.000 --> 00:56:35.320 because we get out out if you can, we're so free and improvisational. 893 00:56:35.400 --> 00:56:37.719 I want to do a movie where you just Hitchcock was the best at shot 894 00:56:37.800 --> 00:56:42.920 structure, you know, like every shot told a story and was related to 895 00:56:42.960 --> 00:56:45.599 the next shot. And so I've been really studying that film. I just 896 00:56:45.639 --> 00:56:49.960 think it's a wonderful movie. My friend. I appreciate you coming on the 897 00:56:49.960 --> 00:56:55.559 show and sharing your insane journey, insane journey of making not only this film, 898 00:56:55.639 --> 00:57:00.559 but your journey through this business and how you've survived it because it is 899 00:57:00.679 --> 00:57:05.760 a it's survival and you're still at it, man, And I gotta give 900 00:57:05.760 --> 00:57:07.079 you props for that, because a lot of people would have quit a long 901 00:57:07.159 --> 00:57:15.639 time ago, and We've just become a professional pokepilla full time. I'm exactly 902 00:57:15.800 --> 00:57:17.119 No, You're insane, and that's okay. That's what we are. We 903 00:57:17.159 --> 00:57:22.320 are insane creatures that just like no, No, I'm gonna make my movie. 904 00:57:22.719 --> 00:57:25.920 Even if I gotta take money from the Bob. Fine, I'll just 905 00:57:25.960 --> 00:57:29.280 do what I gotta do. But I appreciate you, my friend. I 906 00:57:29.320 --> 00:57:30.320 wish you the best of luck with your film. I hope everyone goes out 907 00:57:30.360 --> 00:57:32.360 and sees it. My friend, Thank you so much, Thanks a lot 908 00:57:32.360 --> 00:57:37.239 of us. I want to thank Terrence so much for coming on the show 909 00:57:37.400 --> 00:57:40.159 and sharing his journey with the tribe today. Thank you so much, Terrence. 910 00:57:40.199 --> 00:57:43.800 If you want to get links to anything we spoke about in this episode, 911 00:57:44.119 --> 00:57:47.119 including how to watch his new film get Away if you Can, starring 912 00:57:47.239 --> 00:57:51.920 Ed Harris, head over to the show notes at Bulletproof Screenwriting dot tv. 913 00:57:52.199 --> 00:57:54.119 Forward slash three fifty one. Thank you so much for listening, guys, 914 00:57:54.119 --> 00:57:58.760 as always, keep on writing no matter what. I'll talk to you soon. 915 00:57:59.199 --> 00:58:04.559 Thanks for listening at a bulletproof screenwriting podcast at Bulletproof Screenwriting dot tv.