What is up, Fellows, Thermo nuclear a Evers. I am a valley
coming at you solo. For the time being, this is only a quick
intro. I'm about to be joined by Kaitlin Cooper, the brains behind basketball.
She wrote a blog about the basketball played by the Indiana Pacers, fantastic
stuff. If you've listened or watched this podcast before, you know how much
we admire and appreciate the work that she does. This is a special interview
that I've been sitting on for a while just with the content churn we've had,
I wanted to get it out, but we're putting out the look aheads.
There's been breaking news. This is evergreen stuff. I talked to her
about her background, her process, influences, that she's had some basketball ix
things that will you know that you can do on a basketball court that we're
endear you to her. So I think you'll enjoy the conversation. But as
part of ensuring that, I just want This podcast is big on independent creators,
and we're independent pending creators ourselves, but Grant and I are also backed
by Bleacher Report, so it's a little bit different. We want to give
away subscriptions to Caitlin's blog Patreon does not let you do that, though,
I try to figure out the best way to do it. So here's how
we're going to set this up. We will be giving away five sixth month
memberships to the basketball, she wrote Patreon. What's going to need to happen
is one. I want people who actually watched and listen to what she said.
I'm going to ask her about her favorite Outshine popsicle flavors. Just respond
YouTube, Twitter, get to our discords, links in the podcast, YouTube
description, whatever however you can reach me, I will find it in the
community. The first five people to respond with more than one of her favorite
flavors, I want to ask you for all five, but if you can
name at least two of her favorite Outshine popsicle flavors, I will then the
first five people will get. I will reimburse you for six months of basketball,
she wrote. Subscription the best way that we're gonna do that. I
just want proof of a screenshot. Somehow you can email it to me.
I will give you my email. We can talk about that in the comments
or again discord, Twitter, DMS, and then I can Venmo, PayPal.
We can figure it out it's only five dollars a month, and Grant
and I we have yet to put our content behind the paywall. It's all
free, so if you can, please support the Basketball, she wrote,
blog and like, even if you're not gonna get it for free, it's
only five bucks a month, so go ahead and do it. But like
I said, the first five people to respond to this podcast, YouTube,
Twitter, discord whatever with Caitlin's favorite Outshine popsicle flavors, I will reimburse you
for a six month subscription to the Basketball, she wrote blog, and I
think that people can get a lot of use out of it, even if
you're not a fan of the Indiana Pacers, like she's covering other teams,
even if it's tangentially when she's looking at matchup go against the Pacers, or
when she's using clips to break down Pacers players and some of the defenses they're
going against. She is one of the best in the business, if not
the best in the business. There's not a writer or basketball mind out there
that's better than her. And I truly do mean that. And I think
when we're talking about supporting people's work or getting an idea for people who are
extremely talented and doing it the right way. Names that always spring to mind
Kaitlyn Cooper, Katie Hindel of Basketball Feelings. This is not even just because
he's the co host of this podcast, but Grant is one of the smartest
basketball minds I've ever encountered. And the way that he's able to write so
succinctly and effectively to make his points, it's honestly incredible. And so if
you listen to and watch this podcast but haven't read Grant like, that's a
must read. Rob Mahoney over at The Ringer, Howard Beck now over at
The Ringer is great, Zach Lowe is fantastic. And so those are always
names that immediately spring to mind for me when talking about the most talented writers
and also basketball minds. Or they're able to blend their analysis, communicate it
in a way that makes it accessible to everybody, and they have this distinct
tone, this distinct voice, and Caitlyn is just so good at it when
you deal I think in the x's and o's, the nuances of basketball that
I think can sometimes fly over a lot of fans's heads. It can be
very hard to communicate that and I sometimes think that those people who are who
are so smart, it can be hard to write that to effectively demonstrate it,
for people to digest it, synthesize it, take it in. Caitlyn
is so good at making what can be at least complex to me my simple
mind to take it in and be able to really enjoy it. And so
she's going to blend that just with a writing style that is that is so
distinct and refreshing that it doesn't feel like you're just, you know, reading
another person. If you look at a piece of writing, you're going to
know it's Kaitlen Cooper's. And she's so good with strong openings and closes.
And since she started the Basketball she wrote blog, she's weaved in more personal
anecdotes with which I've personally really enjoyed. And she, you know, doesn't
like talking about herself. Really, who does I don't like talking about myself
either, but she was kind enough to do this podcast. I thought it
was a really fun interview and I gained a lot of insight into to her
process. I think you will very much enjoy it. The link to basketball
she wrote is in the podcast and YouTube description as well as it's her Twitter
handle at c two underscore Cooper. It'll be on the screen throughout of course.
So please go subscribe, become a paying member of the Patreon and like
I said, I will reimburse five people for six months worth of membership to
Patreon if you can just tell me Caitlyn Cooper's favorite outshine popsicle flavors per the
end of this podcast, I hope you enjoy this discussion. Let's get to
talking with Caitlyn Cooper. What is up, fellow thermonuclear affers. I am
Dan Pavalley coming at you without my certified fantabulous co host Grant Hughes, but
I am super excited to be joined once again by the one, the only,
the legendary Caitlyn Cooper is the what do we call it? Like the
head of your the author of the basketball she wrote? Is that a newsletter
subscription based model? You should subscribe. The link is in our podcast and
YouTube description. You already heard her talk about the Indiana Pacers look Ahead,
which dropped last week. I believe she's been kind enough, and I've been
asking her for months now and she's she's finally done it. I'm going to
ask Caitlyn Cooper about Caitlyn Cooper. I've been waiting for this. I'm excited
for it. I know you all enjoy it. She does such great work.
They just wanted to pick her brain about stuff not related to the Pacers,
but the question that everyone's dying to know. Kaitlyn, how are you
doing doing well? I'm always excited to come back and talk to you with
you, And this one's a little bit different because shifting from Indie Cornrows to
Patreon. I've told you before we hopped on here has been a big adjustment,
a lot more personal and like doing this podcast is a lot more personal,
which takes me out of my comfort zone a little bit, but getting
to do it with you makes it easier. So thank you for inviting me
on. I appreciate you saying yes, I know you hate talking about yourself,
but I remember the east that Stephen no did for the Sporting News,
and I used that as my opening, like, Hey, you're talking about
yourself. Can you come talk about yourself some more? So I took advantage
of that. And yes, if you've not I'll reiterate. If you haven't
subscribed to basketball, she wrote, please go do that mediate lead immediately.
The link is in the YouTube and podcast description, So I'll start here.
I know you wrote about why you named your patreon basketball, she wrote,
but are you able to just sort of retell our listeners like the meaning behind
that? Right? It's catchy and I'm a super fan of murder, she
wrote, right now, that's that's not the real reason. The real reason
kind of goes back to being a kid and growing up around basketball. My
dad was a coach, and I've told this story before, but I was
around a lot of coaches when I was growing up, in a lot of
different gyms, and I directly had one tell me one day that he preferred
to coach girls basketball because they didn't know enough about the game to argue with
him, and that really stuck with me. I'd like to say that I
don't think about it anymore, but it conditioned me quite a bit in the
way that I interacted as a player and when I got into doing whatever you
call what we do or what I do so just out of my own paranoia.
When I was on Twitter and my byeline, when I was still Indie
Corners, my first name was abbreviated. It was always C. Cooper.
It wasn't because I was trying to deceive anyone. I just wanted people to
notice my writing first and not have an impression based on my gender. So
then eventually, when my work started getting noticed more and I was doing podcasts,
obviously people that knew it was a woman behind the keyboard. But for
the entire ten years that I was at Indie Cornrows, my byeline was abbreviated.
When I decided to do my own page, well, actually one way
that I revealed it as I ended up on Twitter. When I finally did
change my name on Twitter to Kaitlin, I used an avatar of a typewriter
and I put the words basketball she wrote on the piece of paper. So
when I decided, you know, Indie Corners came out to an end,
the lights got turned off, and I was like, I need to come
up with a name for this. I was like, I think that's the
perfect name, and it kind of just is me embracing that journey and realizing
that for everyone that got to know me as a writer first in a woman's
second, I hope that everybody knows and enjoys me as both now. So
that's kind of how the name came into beating has it changed at all like
going from Indie corn Rows to something that you just fully run operate with basketball
show. There's that change how you cover the team, any challenges or any
benefits of just covering the league fully independently, I guess would be the way
to frame it. I think the best way to describe it is that it's
a lot more personal, for reasons both good and bad. I think that
if people go and read my work over there, there are more personal anecdotes.
Sometimes I do a mailbag that's patron only and people ask me more personal
stuff about me. They'll ask me no jersey, aesthetics or stuff when I
was growing up, or recently, somebody asked me if I would ever consider
coaching with my dad and a mailbag, and I actually did like a fun
phone call with him during the mailbag video. So that's not stuff that I
would have ever considered doing a Indie corn Rows. But I feel a little
bit more comfortable sharing myself because it's people who are invest in me. Obviously,
if you're paying me money to read my work, you probably like my
work. You want to get to know me a little bit more, and
I think that that's only fair. And then on the other side of it.
It is it's more personal in that, you know, I think about
the business of writing a lot more now, and it's a weird thing to
say and a weird thing to think about. Like when I was just filing
stories at any corners, I of course wanted to do my best work and
publish my best work there and do my best for that website, and the
same as carried over here now. But when you're the publisher, the editor,
the writer, the owner, and you're trying to make money in this
business, you have to think about things a little bit differently, and you
do notice what your numbers are. You notice when somebody cancels a subscription and
you take it a little bit more to heart than when you're just seeing you
know, oh, I didn't get quite as many clicks on that article,
Like it's it's a nameless click versus it's a person, you know, potentially
canceling a subscription or signing up after they hear me on a podcast or after
they read something. So it's a very it's a lot more intimate experience all
the way around, I guess, is how I would say the adjustment has
been. I don't mean to put you on this with it, but you
prefer it like what you're doing now or to what was happening in Indie corn
Rows or is it just sort of like it's still an adjustment period. I
think it's give or take. I mean, I like the fact that there
has been somewhat, you know, a freeing and empowerment thing that I have
been willing to reveal myself a little bit more. I'm usually a very private
person, and the fact that I am doing mailbag YouTube videos where people can
watch me drive to locations and do things with my sister, that's not something
that I would have been comfortable even thinking about doing two years ago. But
having the people that are investing in me has made me feel comfortable doing it,
and I do think that that's a good step forward, both professionally and
personally. So that's been a positive of it. I think in the Sporting
News piece you had mentioned that your dad was a basketball coach. Is that
the genesis of how you sort of fell in love with the game or was
there something different that was responsible for that? And I'm definitely going to ask
you which Pacers players you were cutting out of magazines when you were Yeah,
I mean my dad started coaching when I was a sixth grader, I think
is how old I was, and I already loved basketball before that. I
was going to basketball camps from the time I was in first grade. Certainly,
him being a coach and me being around it in a different setting and
seeing what goes into being a coach and going to scouting trips was a lot
more immersive and grew my love of it more, and I think altered when
I was no longer a player kind of the way that I see the game.
But I guess if I was connecting my pacer memory and when all of
this kind of came into being, it was probably the Pacers New Jersey Nets
series in two thousand and two, when Reggie Miller had that kind of iconic
game that went into double overtime winner, go Home, and obviously the Nets
ended up winning, but he forced each one of those overtimes, first with
free and then with a dunk. And what I remember most about that game
is I watched it at my grandparents' house. I was obviously very very young,
and I remember I was watching my dad's reaction to it almost more than
I was watching the actual game. And that was when I really fell in
love the Pacers. I do know that I had watched Pacer games before that,
but like just the familial aspect of it and growing up here in Indiana,
I think that that was probably my earliest memory. So who which Pacers
was it? Reggie Miller? Is that who you were cutting out of magazine?
Oh? I mean at that age, when I was in junior high,
it would have been you know, the Rick Carlisle, Jermaine O'Neil,
ron artest Al Harrington, Jamal Tinsley team. If any of those guys were
in a magazine, they were getting cut out and putting on the locker wall.
I will say, you might be the only human being in existence that
was cutting out little Rick Carlisle photos because I was not cutting out I was
cutting out pictures of the players. I just saying it was a Rick Carlisle
coach team. Oh. So the stuff you write talk tweet about, it's
just so ridiculously high level, also granular. It's so unique when you're watching
these games, and I know you said, I think that you watch every
Pacers game at at least twice. What sort of goes into recognizing so much
and it's so effectively but it's just so much all this stuff that's happening,
whether it's on the sidelines or in a possession, when you're watching it in
just sort of real time, Like, is there a specific aspect of a
possession that you naturally gravitate toward. I'm always fascinated by people who are so
good at the recognizing and describing the functional x's and o's aspect of the game,
how they're able to process these things in real time. I mean,
I think that the short and simple answer to that is that's why I watch
it more than once. I don't think you can take all of that in
in one view. And I actually talk to a reporter about this once who
goes and sees games live and game. Most of the time, I'm remote,
and I think that there's things that you miss from both sides of it.
Like when you're in the arena, you're seeing things happening on the sidelines
that you're never like that cameras might not be showing you. But when you're
watching it remote, you see different angles. You see sometimes they'll close up
on coaches. You'll see more play signals than what you might see from the
media section at a game. So I think on rewatch is typically when I
catch more things, it will more so during live action. I might take
a note and be like, oh, that was something. But as far
as like what I watch or look for in general, people ask me that
a lot, like how do you learn how to watch basketball? And the
number one tip that I typically give people is don't watch the basketball. Watch
what's happening away from the ball as much as you can and then I think
that you start noticing patterns. And once you notice like, oh that's something
they do frequently, that's actually a play, then you can see what happens
when the play breaks down, and I think that you're understanding grows from there.
But like in my type of writing, I gave this a lot of
thought when you ask me to do this, like what exactly is it that
I'm watching for? And I think that the best way to distill it is
I'm looking for abnormalities. I'm looking for what's different or what's other for reasons
both good or bad. Is something stand out and then why does it stand
out? And trying to connect those clues and then write a narrative from there,
so that could be you know, almost anything, is it an abnormality
in terms of, you know, hey, Tyris Halliburton jumps a lot and
more than a lot of people, and is this actually a good thing or
a bad thing like that. That's kind of what the initial, you know,
germination of it is. I think, is there like a particular environment
or set up that you prefer to have when you're watching games. Is it
like, if you're watching game for the first time, will you are you
on social media? Are you cutting up stuff? Or is it you have
to you have a notepad and you're writing down notes and you have to be
sort of laser focused without other multitasking distractions. Yeah, I'm typically watching it
live just on regular TV, and then I have notes or I'll do it
in a note tapp on my phone. I do some live tweeting, but
not as much as I used to, And I will say that I never
am seeing what anybody else is tweeting, which is kind of sad. But
like, whatever I'm putting out there is just like stray thoughts that that are
just coming straight from me because I can't be focusing on what all the other
tweets are going on. And like, if I'm looking at social media,
then I'm not focused on what's happening up during the game. So typically,
like sometimes I'll scroll through that after the game's over to see what the general
consensus was, and a lot of times I'll be shocked because I'll be like,
oh, wow, it's kind of like watching t Musa lately. Like
I'll get done, I'll be like, that is not my takeaway from that
game. So you already mentioned the Tyres Halibert and John Passes. You wrote
a wonderful piece this was it in August or was it September at that point
about Miles Turner and jump balls, and you said you're watching for abnormalities.
What is sort of the process though, that goes into identifying those abnormalities and
knowing whether it's story worthy or not. It's is it a light bulb that
flashes once and you're like, oh, I have to watch for that moving
forward? Is it a story that sort of marinates in your head over time?
Like what goes into you know, is it hard to even find,
identify and then think of these abnormalities because the pieces like those are just so
gloriously unique that I'm just wondering how much thought and effort has to go into
not just executing them, but conceptualizing them. I think a big part of
it goes to this is why I value single team specialists a lot, and
this arena for this type of writing, because if I'm not watching every game
that the Pacers play, then I'm not going to notice if something's different from
the norm, Like if I just zoom in from the top, like this
happens to me, Like if I'm trying to do a Central Division preview or
go talk about another team, I'm not going to know about it as in
depth as somebody who's on the ground doing that eighty two games. So in
Tyrese's case, like, yeah, you might from the first few games be
like, Wow, this guy jumps a lot, But I'm not sure it
would stand out to you unless you had seen him do it for the twenty
six games that I watched when he came over and been like this keeps happening?
What is? And I had a pretty good idea before I tracked all
this that that was going to end in good results, or at least I
crossed my fingers really hard that it was going to and be supported by the
numbers, which fortunately it was. And I just think that like my favorite
story that I've written since shifting to Patreon was one I think this will explain
what I'm getting at really well. That Tyrese made a game winner against the
Chicago Bowls. Patrick Beverley was shading him left and he hit a three,
stopping and popping to his left. And the story that I wanted to write
when that was over, which Tyrese spoke about publicly, was that he went
against what the play call was from Rick Carlisle on the sidelines, and you
could see Rick on camera being like, oh, you have something else,
like okay, okay, like was very amenable to Tyrese doing that. I
knew that before Tyrese even said it, because I had watched enough Pacer games
that I knew what hand signal Rick Carlisle had used, and that Tyrese did
not run the play that Rick had called. And I just thought that that
was very monumental for where their relationship had grown in a year's time from when
Tyrese, you know, during overtime against Oklahoma City a year ago, was
literally slowing the pace to stare at the sideline to see what play they were
supposed to call, and that he made the read based on what he knew
Patrick Beverley was going to do, and that that was the play call that
they needed in that moment. If I had to watch the Pacers play every
game and rewatching that, that's not a story that I can tell because I
wouldn't have known enough to know that Tyree didn't need to run that play.
So that's that's kind of I think why being a single game specialist isn't as
much of a negative as it can be build at is sometimes you're free to
no comment this if you would like. But as any team player coach been
like, hey, you're blowing up our spot here, like when you're recognizing
like these hands singles when you when you're able to relay that piece of information.
No, And I don't think that they would. I mean I did
have. I did have one coach ask me like those are correct? How
did you know that? Or how how do you know what they're doing?
And I said, just watching it off the broadcast, And I go a
lot of times like the broadcast can pick it up like it's Echoe Jim.
You can hear what the call is. And so like anybody like it's kind
of like going back to like this Raptors Knicks things, which obviously I don't
know the whole details of how like these play calls taken from the Knicks to
the Raptors, but like anybody watching the full game tape can see what,
you know, the signals are, you just have to be paying attention to
what then goes on at the court at the same time. And I would
never personally, just never be able to do that. I could watch it
at ten times, and it's just there's so much happening. And one of
the you know, you just said something that I received one of the earliest
piece of advices when I started was it was in regard to defense, but
it was like, don't watch the ball, watch what's happening around the court.
There's so much happening around the court that I just can't take it all
in. And so I'm constantly in awe of you and other people were able
to I don't care how many watches it takes you that you can distill down
every granul level of a play from from its genesis where it's like, oh,
that's the hand signal, this is this is about to happen. That
is just that's otherworldly shit to me. I'm not gonna lie. I think
that that mainly like and some of this I said earlier that like I was
watching my dad's enjoyment or Reggie Miller forcing overtime. Like I wanted to go
on pretty much every scouting trip that he went on originally because I was playing,
and I wanted I thought, you know, watching as many games as
I could, I was going to get better as a player than when I
was no longer playing. It was I'm watching this from you know, my
dad's perspective, and I want his team to win games. So like I
would watch him on scouting trips, and that's what he was always doing,
Like it was his job to know what plays as the opposing team running,
and are what type of defense are we going to run when they run those?
So like he was always watching hand signals, always watching what play calls
were, and I always was, like you, I was always marveling at
how much he could take in when we were sitting there live in a gym,
So that kind of trained where my eye goes. I think, like
as an adult now, I think I noticed that, like, oh,
I'm doing what my dad used to do with these games. One of the
other things that I really like about your stuff is you're good at recognizing and
explaining what's happening, So like that diagnosis, but then there's also prognosticating,
where it's talking about or recognizing what teams could do to counter what they could
do to a drip asked this, whether it's even can be resolved with the
current personnel. Then you also do you call it draft Caitlin, which is
an amazing version of Caitlin and even just the And I know you're not like
the biggest fan of hypothetical trades and free agency stuff, but one of my
favorite pieces that you wrote was when the Pacers were thinking about and ultimately gave
DeAndre at and like aside one of the most kindest match me offer sheets in
the history of offer sheets. Basically, like you were able to break down
what you thought as fit would be with the Pacers. You had talked and
written about Jaris Walker before he was even on the Pacers, and even now
talking about Bruce Brown. What is I guess it's a twofold question. What's
more one enjoyable, but two more challenging for you is that the diagnosis and
prognosticating aspect of this and feel free to correct me if I'm just like framing
that the wrong way or the like. Conceptual theoretical fits of players, draftees,
free agents whoever, who haven't yet taken the court with this team.
Yeah, I mean, I think that my preference was always going to be
to be descriptive and describing why teams won or lost, rather than being predictive
and prognosticating. I think that that's really difficult, and that's like what front
offices have to do. That's what coaches have to do, that's what scouts
have to do. They have to be able to see, you know,
somewhat into the future and know, like, that's what counter is going to
be, and what are we going to do if that happens. I typically
like to look back at what just happened and explain to you why it happened.
But we don't always get to do that in this business. Sometimes we
do have to stray into hey, you know, how does Jaris Walker fit
on the Indiana Pacers, even though I've never seen him play a game at
the professional level, And you do have to try to your best to make
educated guesses or like, you know, not a lot of time to prepare
when the Pacers make a blockbuster trade for Tyrese Haliburton, and you don't expect
in any way, shape or form that Tyrese Haliburton is going to be playing
for your team. So, like that particular night, I spent the entire
night up. I watched several Kings games in a row, tried to get
a better feel for his game. Obviously I'd watched the King's play before,
I'd watched Tyrese play before, but not with the expectation of what he would
be doing for the Pacers. And then it just kind of becomes, hey,
what were the problems that the Pacers were having? This is my process?
And like, oh, well, teams are going under against Caris Laverte
a lot when he's on ball, And oh, Malcolm Brogden can't really shoot
going to his left and he typically only drives. So if you get Tyrese
Haliburton and he's good at, you know, pull up shooting and stopping and
popping, he's also somebody that you would want to week to go to his
left, but for the opposite reason, because he isn't going to drive,
he's going to be more likely to shoot. Then it just becomes you know,
I'm going to write about that. I'm going to write about how he
addresses these problems. And I think that's typically the way that I look at
it, or even with Bruce Brown, like what's something that the Pacers were
missing last year? Now I'm going to go watch his game and how does
he address those things. That's a little bit easier, especially when it's at
the NBA level and you have actual NBA tangible results to go off of,
versus when the draft, I think is just so difficult. I do not
envy people that make actual draft decisions and it's hard. Yet another thing if
anyone can't tell I don't even care that I'm totally fan personing right now about
your work. That is just so cool. Is a lot of people who
can provide or identify the inform and relay the information that you do. They're
not I don't want to be brutal here, but like writing is not a
forte of theirs. I think it might be the kindest way to say it,
Like a lot of their stuff can be dry, It can need a
lot of heavy editing from people outside the writer itself. You have a very
distinct style and tone, the stuff you talk about. I think, look
for me at times, it can be complex, but you make it so
accessible because of your writing style and tone in the way you describe that.
Is that something that you focused on developing over time? Did it come naturally?
Do you have like some secret pullets or background that we don't know about.
I think that a lot of what I do probably comes from the standpoint
of I have a background in history. I studied his in college very extensively,
and this is kind of what you do when you're writing papers, Like
I actually looked up something I wrote from many moons ago and remembered what my
professor wrote on the paper. I was taking an upper level Russian history course
and it was about the chronicles of Novgorod, and we were just assigned,
you know, right, write something that you noticed from this primary source and
you know, synthesize it. And at the time I was like agonizing,
like, oh my gosh, I'm not noticing anything. I'm not noticing any
patterns. What details am I going to write from this? And I ultimately
end up thinking, you know, I think that there might have been a
shift in who the actual writer of this was, and that there ended up
being like a miscovie bias in terms of like religion and politics after the shift.
And so that was the paper that I wrote, and my professor answered
back and was like, I've never seen somebody make this connection before and this
is the most like my new detail. But it was really well done.
But this is not what I was looking for. And I feel like that's
what my basketball writing is a lot of the time too. Like in history,
you kind of have to be a detective looking for clues and you're kind
of you know, I feel like I was always in that field, magnifying
nuances a lot and looking at like hypergranular topics to make what arguments I was
going to make. And I think that that's still parlays into basketball and why
I am as detail oriented as I am. And I never wanted my writing
in history to be dry either. That's something that I work really hard at
that I want people to walk away from it when I have Sometimes i'll give
it to my sister, which my sister does not really enjoy basketball, and
that's the exact reason why I'll have her read it, because I'll be like,
were you did you hate this? Did you understand it? Like?
Do you walk away and get what I'm talking about. And I use her
as my litmus test because if if she can walk away from it understanding it
and didn't think it was, you know, the most dry thing she's ever
read that, I'm like, I did something there. I've accomplished the task.
That's a great way to do it. That's a level of thought in
the product that I don't think most people, including myself and I put stuff
out, would think would think to do. Are there aside from your dad,
obviously, if there been any whether it's writing influences, basketball influences when
it comes to how you evaluate or think about the game in your life that
have, like you know, particularly want influence you to reiterate the word or
just lessons whatever they told you that it was stuck with you. Yeah,
I mean, I think my understanding of the game predominantly comes from my dad.
That was the person that I went to a lot of the time when
I was growing up. Obviously I was around other coaches because of him.
I mean, I'd be at scouting trips and if it was a high profile
game, there'd be coaches from a lot of schools that would be sitting there,
and of course they weren't going to engage with like a twelve year old
daughter about what they were thinking and seeing. But I was always listening and
taking in what they were saying. So that was a big part of it.
And then at the writing level, and I hope people don't take this
the wrong way, but it is the truth. If there's national articles written
about the Pacers, I try really hard not to read them because I don't
ever want my work to be derivative. Like and it's writers that I like,
I just always read them when they're writing about other teams, and so
I don't. I don't take in a lot of Pacers content. I try
really hard not too so that people are getting what my opinion is or what
my you know, if you want to use the word take what my take
is. But I do have several people I admired. I'm not just saying
this because I'm sitting here talking to you. I really do admire your work
and your writing verve. I've compared it before. But like, I read
pieces that Rob Mahoney writes, and when I get to the end of it,
I'll be like, I'm never going to write a sentence that good.
Why do I even do this, and I feel similarly when I read your
stuff sometimes, like when you do your player rankings, like I do not
care about player rankings. I genuinely do not. Like you can put the
pacer players wherever you want to, like you can have tires as higher as
low. I'm not going to have any reaction to that. But I do
go for the blurbs, and you are very good with the blurbs. Rob
Mahoney also very good at the blurbs. So those are two people that I
read a lot. As far as like actual analysis, I think a lot
of Mike Prata. I really value the way, like with the book that
he just published, that he can explain very complex topics and he doesn't rely
on film or you know, static screenshots in that book, Like there are
some graphics and some you know court like xs and ohs, but very minimally
and you still totally understand what he's talking about. And then also I really
like Samson Folk and Lewis Zatzman at Raptors Republic. I think the best compliment
that I can give Sampson is that if you gave me one of his pieces
of writing and I did not know that he wrote it, I would know
that he wrote it, and he also knows the game inside it out.
And I just think Lewis is like a genius, Like he can relate anything
to basketball, like give him any analogy. Like I literally read a piece
fro him last year about Gary Trent Jr. Comparing the tulip market and in
the Netherlands, and it made perfect sense. It made perfect sense like it
was. It was a tremendous article. You turned me on to Sampson Folk,
who is really good. Also, Rob Mahoney is on the Mount Rushmore.
I would have to plush it out. Katie Heindel's definitely there too.
Of all, like Mount Rushmore, of read them and feel bad about how
you're writing about yourself exactly. They're both on that level. So this is
one I've talked to you about. I know you've dabbled in it. I
know you've been reluctant to and said that you don't necessarily want to do it.
And I'm imagining fans. I'm not imagining. I've seen fans from other
teams try to recruit you. Have you ever given any thought to branching out
beyond like Pacers covered and doing more league wide stuff with the caveat that you
did just go on a Central Division preview podcast with Danny LaRue on the Real
GM, which was fantastic by the way. But have you given any thought
or did you ever have any desire even to branch out beyond just covering the
Pacers. I mean, I think about it. I wrote the piece about
Eric mean, it really wasn't about Eric Gordon. It was about defensive perception
and spacing in general at five thirty eight a couple of years ago. And
what I would tell people of that pieces that came about in part because there
was rumors that the Pacers might acquire Eric Gore. So I started watching film
and I noticed, like, the way he's being guarded is really interesting.
That's a story that somebody would should write. And then it was actually my
vacation, Like when I was still at any Corners, we would get a
half quota in August and September which would allow me to do like deeper projects,
and so I spent my vacation writing that piece for five thirty eight.
It took like two weeks. And I think that that's the thing that maybe
everybody doesn't fully understand, is that I think the reason people like me is
because I am only covering one team, because this is the level of work
that it takes to produce those types of pieces. If I was doing all
thirty teams, I don't think it would be me anymore. And at that
point, like, I think the writing is better when you're interested in the
topic that you're writing about. And like the night before I did that Central
Division pod, I was very grateful that Danny asked me, and I worked
really hard on it. But I was talking to a friend in this space
and I told him I was like, I'm doing the Central Division pod tomorrow
and I was like, I'm nervous. I just think all of my takes
are so base, And like when I got done off of it, I
was just like I didn't say really think anything that in depth about those other
teams, Like it just it didn't feel the same to me, Like and
I just didn't feel like me. So I get I get it not feeling
the same, but I would push back heavily that they're that like that was
not a derivative like podcast by you at all. That was everyone should check
it out. It's a real GM. It was the Central Division, So
I mean, maybe you're just inherently more familiar with those teams because they're in
the same division. But I didn't, And you know, it was like
it was like a freaking week of work. Like I spent like two or
three days preparing for each team so that I could share my very basic takes.
Yeah, you don't want to they weren't. First of all, they
weren't very basic. But you don't want to stress yourself out to that degree.
I did not ask you this, and the outlines on you. But
if you could cover one team that wasn't the Pacers, have you ever thought
about which team that would be? Oh, it probably would have been the
Nuggets. I know that that's going to sound very bandwagon, but if you
had asked me that question two or three years ago, it still probably would
have been the Nuggets. I just in part because I don't think Yokis seems
like the type of player that would stay point. It would still need to
be a small market. Because I just value, like I value very much
that I've been in this sphere covering the Pacers in the state where I grew
up, covering a team that not a lot of people cover, and I'm
not sure that my work would have gotten noticed if I was in a bigger
market with a lot of different writers doing the same type of writing that I
do. But I also just really like watching players like Yokich, like Tyrese
Haliburton and trying to understand the way that they process the game and trying to
figure out how they operate as supercomputers. So I think that that would be
a really fun star to cover. And I do think that, like I
like the model that d NVR uses a lot. I think that's cool.
So yeah, it probably would have been the Nuggets. I would read a
lot of Kaitlin Cooper, Nakole Yokich. I'm not gonna lie about that.
Although the team that I would be most interesting in seeing you cover would be
the Thunder. I just feel like you would have a ton of interesting stuff
to say about them, so that would be that would be my pick for
you. I finally have some lighter fair questions before I read for these,
I'm ready, so let's start with you briefly, have pulled back the curtain
on player Tateman. What was the defining skill set or trade or attribute whatever
of player Tateman, player Caitlin and my mail bag was mainly a story about
how obscenely large my uniform was because it was we got assigned uniforms based on
our height, and I was one of the taller people on my team.
And then the next year I got told that we would get to pick our
numbers, which was true, but I was the youngest player on the team,
so I got to pick last, and I still had a way oversized
uniform. But beside the point actual play style. It's funny because I literally
asked my dad this question within the last month. I was like, okay.
People always say, like, if you were going to compare your game
to an NBA player, like, who would that be? Like, not
that I'm as good as this NBA player, obviously, but he sat there
for like twenty minutes. I'm not joking. He's like, this is really
hard, and I was like, I know, because as a player like
I really there wasn't a way to describe me. Like from sixth grade until
I was no longer playing, I played every position but point guard, So
do not compare me to any point guards because that is not applicable. And
I'm five six. I was very good at rebounding for my position. I
averaged a large number of rebounds over my career, and then I played with
my back to the basket a lot despite being undersized. So my dad ultimately
came up with Charles Barkley and I a future Hall of Famer. No I
was not, but he said that that's what he thought was most comparable.
And I will let people know that we ran a shuffle motional offense. If
you don't know what that is, you can look it up. And that
skill set is not very useful in that type of offense. People people can
probably figure that out. But that was my role. So if I got
to add lib within sets, I was typically posting up and wanting to use
some type of German O'Neil footwork that I had watched from a DVD and try
to put that into use. So, as you can tell, I made
a lot of sense to be a five six, very skinny forward in an
oversized uniform as the youngest player on a team, playing a back to the
basket game in motion shuffle offense, grabbing every rebound. Okay, So whether
it's about covering the league, watching the game, if you're a player,
what is Caitlyn Cooper's biggest basketball I ah, this is something I actually tweeted
as a prompt my number one basketball ick and if I watched this and it
happens, this was literally the reason I tweeted out that prompt that day is
I can't stand it when it's after halftime or a coach calls the time out
and you can very clearly tell that a player does not know what the play
was, that they weren't paying attention to the huddle and they don't know the
play, and then it screws it up and somebody else on the courts having
to tell them what to do, like number one, I are we just
throwing shade at Christian Wood right now? Is that happening? I will say
that there is a player on the Pacers within like the last five years who
was a very repeat. You would see them, this would happen fairly often.
They would not know to play, like I would know what they're supposed
to do with the time I knew they were messing it up. That is
actually incredible and if you're the coach of the Pacers, somewhat concerning. So
I don't think there's a term for this, and if there is one,
I'm too old to know it. Apparently, what is Caitlyn Cooper's Basketball Beloved.
If a player or a coach does this, or even if it's a
fan something with covering the game does this, that they're going to be ingratiated
to you for an indefinite period of time. I forgot one of my Basketball
IX two is when a coach like has to make the really exaggerated like this
signal, like go to the other end of the court fast. It's like,
no kidding, that's what way we're supposed to go, Like it's demonstrative
and it's ikey, but no. So Basketball Beloved, Yeah, I would
say that this is gonna sound very like old school, but if a player
plays hard regardless of time or score, you will probably have my art.
So, like there's a play in Summer League where like the Pacers were up
like twenty with like two minutes to play, and Andrew Nemhard's still like going
really hard on defense. Like that's just tremendous. I had to clip that.
I had to share it. And then also like something that I've been
focusing on a lot lately, as players who if a play breaks down can
continue playing, So play breakdown progressions or my new thing that I like on
defense is I've come up with this theory that if you can we talk a
lot about unique movers on offense and people that attack defenses uniquely, we don't
really think about that with regard to defenders and people who can attack offenses uniquely
without compromising scheme. So if you're somebody who can help from like an abnormal
position, or you move in a way that's different than other players move doing
that same role, you will also have my heart forever and always. My
final question, and maybe the most important question, what are Kaitlyn Cooper's top
five Outshine popsicle flavors? Oh? Now, this change is a lot I
have. It's a living document. It's much like you know, you gotta
keep adjusting these. But Strawberry will always be the goat popsicle. That's my
staple box that I always keep at home, and then I typically have one
other box and I rotate it. But I would say that at the top
of the board, grape and peach are gonna be there. I've recently come
to really like lemon, and not every store will sell just a box of
the lemon, but that's really good in the summer. And then one that
has shot up the board that I didn't expect to be there, but I
it's a tie between either the pineapple or the creamy coconut. The creamy coconuts
really come on strong lately. I really like that one. I can't picture
that one being good. Grape. I'm a fellow grapey, so I appreciate
the grape is the grape is top two easily. Are you able to because
we're gonna go record another podcast after this, actually, are you just able
to tell our listeners once more where they can find you and all the fantastic
work that you do. Right? So, my Twitter handles at C two
Underscore Cooper. If you go to my handle, you'll find the link to
the patreon as patreon dot com slash basketball. So she wrote, there is
content there that's unlocked. If you just want to do kind of a you
know, look around and go browse and see what it's all about. You
can look there, and then I'd also obviously be very happy to have you
if you want to subscribe and get the content that's locked and participate in my
mailbag send me questions. I love answering questions from the patrons every month,
So come visit. Do it. The link is in the podcast and YouTube
description. I've heard from creators that our listeners have been good about subscribing,
so I expect to hear from Caitlin that she had droves of new subscribes.
How influential you are. That's how influential you are. Neither, they're just
the guests are blowing smoke towards me, which is also which is also fine.
Caitlin, thank you so much for doing this. I will talk to
you again very soon.