1 00:00:14,720 --> 00:00:19,079 What is up, Fellows, Thermo nuclear a Evers. I am a valley 2 00:00:19,199 --> 00:00:21,879 coming at you solo. For the time being, this is only a quick 3 00:00:21,920 --> 00:00:27,399 intro. I'm about to be joined by Kaitlin Cooper, the brains behind basketball. 4 00:00:27,760 --> 00:00:32,320 She wrote a blog about the basketball played by the Indiana Pacers, fantastic 5 00:00:32,359 --> 00:00:35,799 stuff. If you've listened or watched this podcast before, you know how much 6 00:00:35,840 --> 00:00:39,439 we admire and appreciate the work that she does. This is a special interview 7 00:00:39,560 --> 00:00:43,880 that I've been sitting on for a while just with the content churn we've had, 8 00:00:44,479 --> 00:00:46,759 I wanted to get it out, but we're putting out the look aheads. 9 00:00:46,759 --> 00:00:49,960 There's been breaking news. This is evergreen stuff. I talked to her 10 00:00:50,000 --> 00:00:55,799 about her background, her process, influences, that she's had some basketball ix 11 00:00:56,280 --> 00:00:59,280 things that will you know that you can do on a basketball court that we're 12 00:00:59,359 --> 00:01:03,280 endear you to her. So I think you'll enjoy the conversation. But as 13 00:01:03,359 --> 00:01:07,920 part of ensuring that, I just want This podcast is big on independent creators, 14 00:01:07,920 --> 00:01:11,799 and we're independent pending creators ourselves, but Grant and I are also backed 15 00:01:11,840 --> 00:01:15,519 by Bleacher Report, so it's a little bit different. We want to give 16 00:01:15,560 --> 00:01:22,200 away subscriptions to Caitlin's blog Patreon does not let you do that, though, 17 00:01:22,239 --> 00:01:23,680 I try to figure out the best way to do it. So here's how 18 00:01:23,719 --> 00:01:27,799 we're going to set this up. We will be giving away five sixth month 19 00:01:29,120 --> 00:01:34,760 memberships to the basketball, she wrote Patreon. What's going to need to happen 20 00:01:34,799 --> 00:01:37,439 is one. I want people who actually watched and listen to what she said. 21 00:01:37,439 --> 00:01:42,359 I'm going to ask her about her favorite Outshine popsicle flavors. Just respond 22 00:01:42,599 --> 00:01:46,319 YouTube, Twitter, get to our discords, links in the podcast, YouTube 23 00:01:46,359 --> 00:01:49,000 description, whatever however you can reach me, I will find it in the 24 00:01:49,000 --> 00:01:53,439 community. The first five people to respond with more than one of her favorite 25 00:01:53,439 --> 00:01:56,879 flavors, I want to ask you for all five, but if you can 26 00:01:56,959 --> 00:02:00,920 name at least two of her favorite Outshine popsicle flavors, I will then the 27 00:02:00,959 --> 00:02:06,319 first five people will get. I will reimburse you for six months of basketball, 28 00:02:06,400 --> 00:02:08,439 she wrote. Subscription the best way that we're gonna do that. I 29 00:02:08,520 --> 00:02:12,680 just want proof of a screenshot. Somehow you can email it to me. 30 00:02:12,759 --> 00:02:15,479 I will give you my email. We can talk about that in the comments 31 00:02:15,560 --> 00:02:19,560 or again discord, Twitter, DMS, and then I can Venmo, PayPal. 32 00:02:19,639 --> 00:02:22,719 We can figure it out it's only five dollars a month, and Grant 33 00:02:22,719 --> 00:02:24,840 and I we have yet to put our content behind the paywall. It's all 34 00:02:24,919 --> 00:02:30,240 free, so if you can, please support the Basketball, she wrote, 35 00:02:30,520 --> 00:02:32,800 blog and like, even if you're not gonna get it for free, it's 36 00:02:32,800 --> 00:02:35,919 only five bucks a month, so go ahead and do it. But like 37 00:02:36,000 --> 00:02:38,400 I said, the first five people to respond to this podcast, YouTube, 38 00:02:38,479 --> 00:02:45,599 Twitter, discord whatever with Caitlin's favorite Outshine popsicle flavors, I will reimburse you 39 00:02:45,680 --> 00:02:50,919 for a six month subscription to the Basketball, she wrote blog, and I 40 00:02:50,960 --> 00:02:53,479 think that people can get a lot of use out of it, even if 41 00:02:53,520 --> 00:02:57,479 you're not a fan of the Indiana Pacers, like she's covering other teams, 42 00:02:57,599 --> 00:03:00,120 even if it's tangentially when she's looking at matchup go against the Pacers, or 43 00:03:00,159 --> 00:03:04,639 when she's using clips to break down Pacers players and some of the defenses they're 44 00:03:04,680 --> 00:03:07,360 going against. She is one of the best in the business, if not 45 00:03:07,479 --> 00:03:10,639 the best in the business. There's not a writer or basketball mind out there 46 00:03:10,680 --> 00:03:15,400 that's better than her. And I truly do mean that. And I think 47 00:03:15,439 --> 00:03:19,080 when we're talking about supporting people's work or getting an idea for people who are 48 00:03:19,080 --> 00:03:22,800 extremely talented and doing it the right way. Names that always spring to mind 49 00:03:23,280 --> 00:03:27,800 Kaitlyn Cooper, Katie Hindel of Basketball Feelings. This is not even just because 50 00:03:27,800 --> 00:03:30,520 he's the co host of this podcast, but Grant is one of the smartest 51 00:03:30,599 --> 00:03:34,800 basketball minds I've ever encountered. And the way that he's able to write so 52 00:03:34,879 --> 00:03:38,360 succinctly and effectively to make his points, it's honestly incredible. And so if 53 00:03:38,400 --> 00:03:42,879 you listen to and watch this podcast but haven't read Grant like, that's a 54 00:03:43,000 --> 00:03:46,159 must read. Rob Mahoney over at The Ringer, Howard Beck now over at 55 00:03:46,520 --> 00:03:52,039 The Ringer is great, Zach Lowe is fantastic. And so those are always 56 00:03:52,199 --> 00:03:57,039 names that immediately spring to mind for me when talking about the most talented writers 57 00:03:57,039 --> 00:04:00,919 and also basketball minds. Or they're able to blend their analysis, communicate it 58 00:04:00,199 --> 00:04:04,599 in a way that makes it accessible to everybody, and they have this distinct 59 00:04:04,680 --> 00:04:09,840 tone, this distinct voice, and Caitlyn is just so good at it when 60 00:04:09,879 --> 00:04:15,479 you deal I think in the x's and o's, the nuances of basketball that 61 00:04:15,520 --> 00:04:17,959 I think can sometimes fly over a lot of fans's heads. It can be 62 00:04:18,040 --> 00:04:23,240 very hard to communicate that and I sometimes think that those people who are who 63 00:04:23,240 --> 00:04:28,319 are so smart, it can be hard to write that to effectively demonstrate it, 64 00:04:28,360 --> 00:04:30,519 for people to digest it, synthesize it, take it in. Caitlyn 65 00:04:30,600 --> 00:04:34,920 is so good at making what can be at least complex to me my simple 66 00:04:34,920 --> 00:04:39,399 mind to take it in and be able to really enjoy it. And so 67 00:04:39,439 --> 00:04:43,319 she's going to blend that just with a writing style that is that is so 68 00:04:43,439 --> 00:04:46,360 distinct and refreshing that it doesn't feel like you're just, you know, reading 69 00:04:46,360 --> 00:04:49,199 another person. If you look at a piece of writing, you're going to 70 00:04:49,240 --> 00:04:53,759 know it's Kaitlen Cooper's. And she's so good with strong openings and closes. 71 00:04:53,839 --> 00:04:58,519 And since she started the Basketball she wrote blog, she's weaved in more personal 72 00:04:58,560 --> 00:05:02,519 anecdotes with which I've personally really enjoyed. And she, you know, doesn't 73 00:05:02,560 --> 00:05:05,240 like talking about herself. Really, who does I don't like talking about myself 74 00:05:05,240 --> 00:05:08,879 either, but she was kind enough to do this podcast. I thought it 75 00:05:08,879 --> 00:05:12,079 was a really fun interview and I gained a lot of insight into to her 76 00:05:12,120 --> 00:05:15,519 process. I think you will very much enjoy it. The link to basketball 77 00:05:15,560 --> 00:05:18,360 she wrote is in the podcast and YouTube description as well as it's her Twitter 78 00:05:18,399 --> 00:05:23,279 handle at c two underscore Cooper. It'll be on the screen throughout of course. 79 00:05:23,399 --> 00:05:26,560 So please go subscribe, become a paying member of the Patreon and like 80 00:05:26,600 --> 00:05:30,040 I said, I will reimburse five people for six months worth of membership to 81 00:05:30,399 --> 00:05:36,319 Patreon if you can just tell me Caitlyn Cooper's favorite outshine popsicle flavors per the 82 00:05:36,480 --> 00:05:41,319 end of this podcast, I hope you enjoy this discussion. Let's get to 83 00:05:41,319 --> 00:05:46,160 talking with Caitlyn Cooper. What is up, fellow thermonuclear affers. I am 84 00:05:46,399 --> 00:05:49,360 Dan Pavalley coming at you without my certified fantabulous co host Grant Hughes, but 85 00:05:49,399 --> 00:05:55,720 I am super excited to be joined once again by the one, the only, 86 00:05:56,000 --> 00:06:00,199 the legendary Caitlyn Cooper is the what do we call it? Like the 87 00:06:00,199 --> 00:06:04,199 head of your the author of the basketball she wrote? Is that a newsletter 88 00:06:04,240 --> 00:06:08,360 subscription based model? You should subscribe. The link is in our podcast and 89 00:06:08,399 --> 00:06:12,519 YouTube description. You already heard her talk about the Indiana Pacers look Ahead, 90 00:06:12,959 --> 00:06:15,759 which dropped last week. I believe she's been kind enough, and I've been 91 00:06:15,839 --> 00:06:20,240 asking her for months now and she's she's finally done it. I'm going to 92 00:06:20,279 --> 00:06:25,879 ask Caitlyn Cooper about Caitlyn Cooper. I've been waiting for this. I'm excited 93 00:06:25,920 --> 00:06:28,560 for it. I know you all enjoy it. She does such great work. 94 00:06:28,639 --> 00:06:31,040 They just wanted to pick her brain about stuff not related to the Pacers, 95 00:06:31,600 --> 00:06:34,000 but the question that everyone's dying to know. Kaitlyn, how are you 96 00:06:34,000 --> 00:06:38,720 doing doing well? I'm always excited to come back and talk to you with 97 00:06:38,759 --> 00:06:42,439 you, And this one's a little bit different because shifting from Indie Cornrows to 98 00:06:42,519 --> 00:06:46,319 Patreon. I've told you before we hopped on here has been a big adjustment, 99 00:06:46,360 --> 00:06:48,639 a lot more personal and like doing this podcast is a lot more personal, 100 00:06:48,639 --> 00:06:51,240 which takes me out of my comfort zone a little bit, but getting 101 00:06:51,279 --> 00:06:55,680 to do it with you makes it easier. So thank you for inviting me 102 00:06:55,720 --> 00:06:59,120 on. I appreciate you saying yes, I know you hate talking about yourself, 103 00:06:59,160 --> 00:07:02,040 but I remember the east that Stephen no did for the Sporting News, 104 00:07:02,040 --> 00:07:04,240 and I used that as my opening, like, Hey, you're talking about 105 00:07:04,279 --> 00:07:08,879 yourself. Can you come talk about yourself some more? So I took advantage 106 00:07:08,920 --> 00:07:11,680 of that. And yes, if you've not I'll reiterate. If you haven't 107 00:07:11,720 --> 00:07:15,759 subscribed to basketball, she wrote, please go do that mediate lead immediately. 108 00:07:15,839 --> 00:07:20,680 The link is in the YouTube and podcast description, So I'll start here. 109 00:07:21,120 --> 00:07:27,920 I know you wrote about why you named your patreon basketball, she wrote, 110 00:07:27,959 --> 00:07:30,160 but are you able to just sort of retell our listeners like the meaning behind 111 00:07:30,199 --> 00:07:33,279 that? Right? It's catchy and I'm a super fan of murder, she 112 00:07:33,360 --> 00:07:36,879 wrote, right now, that's that's not the real reason. The real reason 113 00:07:36,959 --> 00:07:41,439 kind of goes back to being a kid and growing up around basketball. My 114 00:07:41,560 --> 00:07:44,240 dad was a coach, and I've told this story before, but I was 115 00:07:44,279 --> 00:07:46,519 around a lot of coaches when I was growing up, in a lot of 116 00:07:46,560 --> 00:07:49,680 different gyms, and I directly had one tell me one day that he preferred 117 00:07:49,720 --> 00:07:54,160 to coach girls basketball because they didn't know enough about the game to argue with 118 00:07:54,240 --> 00:07:57,680 him, and that really stuck with me. I'd like to say that I 119 00:07:57,680 --> 00:08:00,560 don't think about it anymore, but it conditioned me quite a bit in the 120 00:08:00,600 --> 00:08:03,199 way that I interacted as a player and when I got into doing whatever you 121 00:08:03,279 --> 00:08:07,199 call what we do or what I do so just out of my own paranoia. 122 00:08:07,360 --> 00:08:11,279 When I was on Twitter and my byeline, when I was still Indie 123 00:08:11,279 --> 00:08:13,160 Corners, my first name was abbreviated. It was always C. Cooper. 124 00:08:13,560 --> 00:08:18,079 It wasn't because I was trying to deceive anyone. I just wanted people to 125 00:08:18,120 --> 00:08:22,759 notice my writing first and not have an impression based on my gender. So 126 00:08:22,800 --> 00:08:26,480 then eventually, when my work started getting noticed more and I was doing podcasts, 127 00:08:26,519 --> 00:08:28,319 obviously people that knew it was a woman behind the keyboard. But for 128 00:08:28,319 --> 00:08:31,879 the entire ten years that I was at Indie Cornrows, my byeline was abbreviated. 129 00:08:33,320 --> 00:08:35,879 When I decided to do my own page, well, actually one way 130 00:08:35,879 --> 00:08:37,960 that I revealed it as I ended up on Twitter. When I finally did 131 00:08:39,080 --> 00:08:43,159 change my name on Twitter to Kaitlin, I used an avatar of a typewriter 132 00:08:43,200 --> 00:08:46,320 and I put the words basketball she wrote on the piece of paper. So 133 00:08:46,559 --> 00:08:50,039 when I decided, you know, Indie Corners came out to an end, 134 00:08:50,080 --> 00:08:52,000 the lights got turned off, and I was like, I need to come 135 00:08:52,039 --> 00:08:52,919 up with a name for this. I was like, I think that's the 136 00:08:54,000 --> 00:08:56,919 perfect name, and it kind of just is me embracing that journey and realizing 137 00:08:56,960 --> 00:09:00,840 that for everyone that got to know me as a writer first in a woman's 138 00:09:00,840 --> 00:09:03,399 second, I hope that everybody knows and enjoys me as both now. So 139 00:09:03,840 --> 00:09:11,120 that's kind of how the name came into beating has it changed at all like 140 00:09:11,240 --> 00:09:16,159 going from Indie corn Rows to something that you just fully run operate with basketball 141 00:09:16,159 --> 00:09:18,919 show. There's that change how you cover the team, any challenges or any 142 00:09:18,960 --> 00:09:22,799 benefits of just covering the league fully independently, I guess would be the way 143 00:09:22,799 --> 00:09:26,039 to frame it. I think the best way to describe it is that it's 144 00:09:26,080 --> 00:09:30,879 a lot more personal, for reasons both good and bad. I think that 145 00:09:30,960 --> 00:09:33,799 if people go and read my work over there, there are more personal anecdotes. 146 00:09:33,840 --> 00:09:37,600 Sometimes I do a mailbag that's patron only and people ask me more personal 147 00:09:37,639 --> 00:09:41,840 stuff about me. They'll ask me no jersey, aesthetics or stuff when I 148 00:09:41,879 --> 00:09:46,240 was growing up, or recently, somebody asked me if I would ever consider 149 00:09:46,279 --> 00:09:48,879 coaching with my dad and a mailbag, and I actually did like a fun 150 00:09:50,039 --> 00:09:54,159 phone call with him during the mailbag video. So that's not stuff that I 151 00:09:54,200 --> 00:09:56,600 would have ever considered doing a Indie corn Rows. But I feel a little 152 00:09:56,600 --> 00:10:00,919 bit more comfortable sharing myself because it's people who are invest in me. Obviously, 153 00:10:00,960 --> 00:10:03,720 if you're paying me money to read my work, you probably like my 154 00:10:03,799 --> 00:10:05,960 work. You want to get to know me a little bit more, and 155 00:10:05,000 --> 00:10:07,320 I think that that's only fair. And then on the other side of it. 156 00:10:07,320 --> 00:10:11,120 It is it's more personal in that, you know, I think about 157 00:10:11,159 --> 00:10:13,440 the business of writing a lot more now, and it's a weird thing to 158 00:10:13,480 --> 00:10:16,200 say and a weird thing to think about. Like when I was just filing 159 00:10:16,240 --> 00:10:20,200 stories at any corners, I of course wanted to do my best work and 160 00:10:20,000 --> 00:10:24,399 publish my best work there and do my best for that website, and the 161 00:10:24,440 --> 00:10:26,960 same as carried over here now. But when you're the publisher, the editor, 162 00:10:26,960 --> 00:10:31,440 the writer, the owner, and you're trying to make money in this 163 00:10:31,480 --> 00:10:33,080 business, you have to think about things a little bit differently, and you 164 00:10:33,120 --> 00:10:37,679 do notice what your numbers are. You notice when somebody cancels a subscription and 165 00:10:37,679 --> 00:10:41,120 you take it a little bit more to heart than when you're just seeing you 166 00:10:41,159 --> 00:10:43,000 know, oh, I didn't get quite as many clicks on that article, 167 00:10:43,080 --> 00:10:46,360 Like it's it's a nameless click versus it's a person, you know, potentially 168 00:10:46,759 --> 00:10:50,600 canceling a subscription or signing up after they hear me on a podcast or after 169 00:10:50,600 --> 00:10:54,519 they read something. So it's a very it's a lot more intimate experience all 170 00:10:54,559 --> 00:10:56,960 the way around, I guess, is how I would say the adjustment has 171 00:10:58,000 --> 00:11:00,600 been. I don't mean to put you on this with it, but you 172 00:11:00,639 --> 00:11:05,320 prefer it like what you're doing now or to what was happening in Indie corn 173 00:11:05,399 --> 00:11:09,080 Rows or is it just sort of like it's still an adjustment period. I 174 00:11:09,120 --> 00:11:11,360 think it's give or take. I mean, I like the fact that there 175 00:11:11,360 --> 00:11:15,399 has been somewhat, you know, a freeing and empowerment thing that I have 176 00:11:15,480 --> 00:11:18,279 been willing to reveal myself a little bit more. I'm usually a very private 177 00:11:18,320 --> 00:11:24,120 person, and the fact that I am doing mailbag YouTube videos where people can 178 00:11:24,159 --> 00:11:28,000 watch me drive to locations and do things with my sister, that's not something 179 00:11:28,039 --> 00:11:31,759 that I would have been comfortable even thinking about doing two years ago. But 180 00:11:31,039 --> 00:11:35,639 having the people that are investing in me has made me feel comfortable doing it, 181 00:11:35,679 --> 00:11:37,360 and I do think that that's a good step forward, both professionally and 182 00:11:37,440 --> 00:11:41,919 personally. So that's been a positive of it. I think in the Sporting 183 00:11:41,919 --> 00:11:46,759 News piece you had mentioned that your dad was a basketball coach. Is that 184 00:11:46,799 --> 00:11:50,639 the genesis of how you sort of fell in love with the game or was 185 00:11:50,679 --> 00:11:54,240 there something different that was responsible for that? And I'm definitely going to ask 186 00:11:54,240 --> 00:11:58,000 you which Pacers players you were cutting out of magazines when you were Yeah, 187 00:11:58,039 --> 00:12:03,320 I mean my dad started coaching when I was a sixth grader, I think 188 00:12:03,480 --> 00:12:05,679 is how old I was, and I already loved basketball before that. I 189 00:12:05,799 --> 00:12:11,159 was going to basketball camps from the time I was in first grade. Certainly, 190 00:12:11,240 --> 00:12:13,120 him being a coach and me being around it in a different setting and 191 00:12:13,159 --> 00:12:18,039 seeing what goes into being a coach and going to scouting trips was a lot 192 00:12:18,080 --> 00:12:22,200 more immersive and grew my love of it more, and I think altered when 193 00:12:22,200 --> 00:12:24,120 I was no longer a player kind of the way that I see the game. 194 00:12:24,200 --> 00:12:28,879 But I guess if I was connecting my pacer memory and when all of 195 00:12:28,879 --> 00:12:33,080 this kind of came into being, it was probably the Pacers New Jersey Nets 196 00:12:33,080 --> 00:12:39,080 series in two thousand and two, when Reggie Miller had that kind of iconic 197 00:12:39,120 --> 00:12:41,559 game that went into double overtime winner, go Home, and obviously the Nets 198 00:12:41,639 --> 00:12:45,320 ended up winning, but he forced each one of those overtimes, first with 199 00:12:45,480 --> 00:12:48,039 free and then with a dunk. And what I remember most about that game 200 00:12:48,120 --> 00:12:52,360 is I watched it at my grandparents' house. I was obviously very very young, 201 00:12:52,879 --> 00:12:56,360 and I remember I was watching my dad's reaction to it almost more than 202 00:12:56,399 --> 00:12:58,720 I was watching the actual game. And that was when I really fell in 203 00:12:58,759 --> 00:13:03,039 love the Pacers. I do know that I had watched Pacer games before that, 204 00:13:03,120 --> 00:13:07,279 but like just the familial aspect of it and growing up here in Indiana, 205 00:13:07,320 --> 00:13:11,480 I think that that was probably my earliest memory. So who which Pacers 206 00:13:11,559 --> 00:13:13,519 was it? Reggie Miller? Is that who you were cutting out of magazine? 207 00:13:13,639 --> 00:13:16,799 Oh? I mean at that age, when I was in junior high, 208 00:13:16,879 --> 00:13:20,480 it would have been you know, the Rick Carlisle, Jermaine O'Neil, 209 00:13:20,720 --> 00:13:26,480 ron artest Al Harrington, Jamal Tinsley team. If any of those guys were 210 00:13:26,480 --> 00:13:28,200 in a magazine, they were getting cut out and putting on the locker wall. 211 00:13:28,679 --> 00:13:31,720 I will say, you might be the only human being in existence that 212 00:13:31,799 --> 00:13:41,320 was cutting out little Rick Carlisle photos because I was not cutting out I was 213 00:13:41,360 --> 00:13:43,080 cutting out pictures of the players. I just saying it was a Rick Carlisle 214 00:13:43,120 --> 00:13:50,399 coach team. Oh. So the stuff you write talk tweet about, it's 215 00:13:50,559 --> 00:13:58,240 just so ridiculously high level, also granular. It's so unique when you're watching 216 00:13:58,240 --> 00:14:00,440 these games, and I know you said, I think that you watch every 217 00:14:00,440 --> 00:14:05,919 Pacers game at at least twice. What sort of goes into recognizing so much 218 00:14:07,600 --> 00:14:11,159 and it's so effectively but it's just so much all this stuff that's happening, 219 00:14:11,159 --> 00:14:13,120 whether it's on the sidelines or in a possession, when you're watching it in 220 00:14:13,159 --> 00:14:16,759 just sort of real time, Like, is there a specific aspect of a 221 00:14:16,759 --> 00:14:20,080 possession that you naturally gravitate toward. I'm always fascinated by people who are so 222 00:14:20,679 --> 00:14:26,240 good at the recognizing and describing the functional x's and o's aspect of the game, 223 00:14:26,360 --> 00:14:31,519 how they're able to process these things in real time. I mean, 224 00:14:31,559 --> 00:14:33,480 I think that the short and simple answer to that is that's why I watch 225 00:14:33,519 --> 00:14:37,279 it more than once. I don't think you can take all of that in 226 00:14:37,279 --> 00:14:41,000 in one view. And I actually talk to a reporter about this once who 227 00:14:41,080 --> 00:14:43,799 goes and sees games live and game. Most of the time, I'm remote, 228 00:14:45,240 --> 00:14:48,120 and I think that there's things that you miss from both sides of it. 229 00:14:48,399 --> 00:14:52,000 Like when you're in the arena, you're seeing things happening on the sidelines 230 00:14:52,039 --> 00:14:56,600 that you're never like that cameras might not be showing you. But when you're 231 00:14:56,639 --> 00:15:00,720 watching it remote, you see different angles. You see sometimes they'll close up 232 00:15:00,759 --> 00:15:03,320 on coaches. You'll see more play signals than what you might see from the 233 00:15:03,399 --> 00:15:09,000 media section at a game. So I think on rewatch is typically when I 234 00:15:09,080 --> 00:15:11,799 catch more things, it will more so during live action. I might take 235 00:15:11,840 --> 00:15:15,600 a note and be like, oh, that was something. But as far 236 00:15:15,639 --> 00:15:18,559 as like what I watch or look for in general, people ask me that 237 00:15:18,600 --> 00:15:20,279 a lot, like how do you learn how to watch basketball? And the 238 00:15:20,360 --> 00:15:24,480 number one tip that I typically give people is don't watch the basketball. Watch 239 00:15:24,519 --> 00:15:28,440 what's happening away from the ball as much as you can and then I think 240 00:15:28,480 --> 00:15:31,639 that you start noticing patterns. And once you notice like, oh that's something 241 00:15:31,679 --> 00:15:35,120 they do frequently, that's actually a play, then you can see what happens 242 00:15:35,120 --> 00:15:39,360 when the play breaks down, and I think that you're understanding grows from there. 243 00:15:39,360 --> 00:15:41,200 But like in my type of writing, I gave this a lot of 244 00:15:41,240 --> 00:15:46,080 thought when you ask me to do this, like what exactly is it that 245 00:15:46,159 --> 00:15:48,279 I'm watching for? And I think that the best way to distill it is 246 00:15:48,279 --> 00:15:54,399 I'm looking for abnormalities. I'm looking for what's different or what's other for reasons 247 00:15:54,399 --> 00:15:58,200 both good or bad. Is something stand out and then why does it stand 248 00:15:58,200 --> 00:16:00,440 out? And trying to connect those clues and then write a narrative from there, 249 00:16:00,480 --> 00:16:03,799 so that could be you know, almost anything, is it an abnormality 250 00:16:03,840 --> 00:16:07,960 in terms of, you know, hey, Tyris Halliburton jumps a lot and 251 00:16:08,039 --> 00:16:11,840 more than a lot of people, and is this actually a good thing or 252 00:16:11,879 --> 00:16:15,039 a bad thing like that. That's kind of what the initial, you know, 253 00:16:15,159 --> 00:16:19,799 germination of it is. I think, is there like a particular environment 254 00:16:21,000 --> 00:16:23,279 or set up that you prefer to have when you're watching games. Is it 255 00:16:23,399 --> 00:16:26,960 like, if you're watching game for the first time, will you are you 256 00:16:27,000 --> 00:16:30,559 on social media? Are you cutting up stuff? Or is it you have 257 00:16:30,639 --> 00:16:32,960 to you have a notepad and you're writing down notes and you have to be 258 00:16:33,000 --> 00:16:38,080 sort of laser focused without other multitasking distractions. Yeah, I'm typically watching it 259 00:16:38,240 --> 00:16:42,360 live just on regular TV, and then I have notes or I'll do it 260 00:16:42,360 --> 00:16:45,720 in a note tapp on my phone. I do some live tweeting, but 261 00:16:45,799 --> 00:16:48,559 not as much as I used to, And I will say that I never 262 00:16:48,600 --> 00:16:52,879 am seeing what anybody else is tweeting, which is kind of sad. But 263 00:16:52,000 --> 00:16:56,120 like, whatever I'm putting out there is just like stray thoughts that that are 264 00:16:56,159 --> 00:17:00,519 just coming straight from me because I can't be focusing on what all the other 265 00:17:00,519 --> 00:17:03,119 tweets are going on. And like, if I'm looking at social media, 266 00:17:03,160 --> 00:17:07,759 then I'm not focused on what's happening up during the game. So typically, 267 00:17:07,799 --> 00:17:11,359 like sometimes I'll scroll through that after the game's over to see what the general 268 00:17:11,400 --> 00:17:14,440 consensus was, and a lot of times I'll be shocked because I'll be like, 269 00:17:14,440 --> 00:17:15,720 oh, wow, it's kind of like watching t Musa lately. Like 270 00:17:15,759 --> 00:17:18,359 I'll get done, I'll be like, that is not my takeaway from that 271 00:17:18,400 --> 00:17:25,720 game. So you already mentioned the Tyres Halibert and John Passes. You wrote 272 00:17:25,839 --> 00:17:30,039 a wonderful piece this was it in August or was it September at that point 273 00:17:30,079 --> 00:17:34,480 about Miles Turner and jump balls, and you said you're watching for abnormalities. 274 00:17:36,079 --> 00:17:40,279 What is sort of the process though, that goes into identifying those abnormalities and 275 00:17:40,319 --> 00:17:42,119 knowing whether it's story worthy or not. It's is it a light bulb that 276 00:17:42,119 --> 00:17:45,720 flashes once and you're like, oh, I have to watch for that moving 277 00:17:45,720 --> 00:17:48,880 forward? Is it a story that sort of marinates in your head over time? 278 00:17:48,920 --> 00:17:52,480 Like what goes into you know, is it hard to even find, 279 00:17:52,839 --> 00:17:56,799 identify and then think of these abnormalities because the pieces like those are just so 280 00:17:56,960 --> 00:18:00,920 gloriously unique that I'm just wondering how much thought and effort has to go into 281 00:18:00,960 --> 00:18:06,720 not just executing them, but conceptualizing them. I think a big part of 282 00:18:06,759 --> 00:18:11,640 it goes to this is why I value single team specialists a lot, and 283 00:18:11,720 --> 00:18:17,440 this arena for this type of writing, because if I'm not watching every game 284 00:18:17,480 --> 00:18:21,279 that the Pacers play, then I'm not going to notice if something's different from 285 00:18:21,319 --> 00:18:22,720 the norm, Like if I just zoom in from the top, like this 286 00:18:22,799 --> 00:18:26,400 happens to me, Like if I'm trying to do a Central Division preview or 287 00:18:26,400 --> 00:18:29,920 go talk about another team, I'm not going to know about it as in 288 00:18:30,000 --> 00:18:33,839 depth as somebody who's on the ground doing that eighty two games. So in 289 00:18:33,960 --> 00:18:37,839 Tyrese's case, like, yeah, you might from the first few games be 290 00:18:37,880 --> 00:18:40,039 like, Wow, this guy jumps a lot, But I'm not sure it 291 00:18:40,039 --> 00:18:42,799 would stand out to you unless you had seen him do it for the twenty 292 00:18:42,839 --> 00:18:47,319 six games that I watched when he came over and been like this keeps happening? 293 00:18:48,000 --> 00:18:51,039 What is? And I had a pretty good idea before I tracked all 294 00:18:51,119 --> 00:18:52,400 this that that was going to end in good results, or at least I 295 00:18:52,440 --> 00:18:56,960 crossed my fingers really hard that it was going to and be supported by the 296 00:18:56,039 --> 00:19:02,079 numbers, which fortunately it was. And I just think that like my favorite 297 00:19:02,079 --> 00:19:06,079 story that I've written since shifting to Patreon was one I think this will explain 298 00:19:06,119 --> 00:19:08,799 what I'm getting at really well. That Tyrese made a game winner against the 299 00:19:08,880 --> 00:19:12,960 Chicago Bowls. Patrick Beverley was shading him left and he hit a three, 300 00:19:14,039 --> 00:19:17,640 stopping and popping to his left. And the story that I wanted to write 301 00:19:17,680 --> 00:19:21,480 when that was over, which Tyrese spoke about publicly, was that he went 302 00:19:21,519 --> 00:19:23,240 against what the play call was from Rick Carlisle on the sidelines, and you 303 00:19:23,279 --> 00:19:26,200 could see Rick on camera being like, oh, you have something else, 304 00:19:26,240 --> 00:19:30,119 like okay, okay, like was very amenable to Tyrese doing that. I 305 00:19:30,200 --> 00:19:33,839 knew that before Tyrese even said it, because I had watched enough Pacer games 306 00:19:33,839 --> 00:19:37,519 that I knew what hand signal Rick Carlisle had used, and that Tyrese did 307 00:19:37,559 --> 00:19:41,079 not run the play that Rick had called. And I just thought that that 308 00:19:41,160 --> 00:19:45,599 was very monumental for where their relationship had grown in a year's time from when 309 00:19:45,640 --> 00:19:49,400 Tyrese, you know, during overtime against Oklahoma City a year ago, was 310 00:19:49,480 --> 00:19:53,200 literally slowing the pace to stare at the sideline to see what play they were 311 00:19:53,240 --> 00:19:56,759 supposed to call, and that he made the read based on what he knew 312 00:19:56,759 --> 00:20:00,960 Patrick Beverley was going to do, and that that was the play call that 313 00:20:00,960 --> 00:20:03,279 they needed in that moment. If I had to watch the Pacers play every 314 00:20:03,279 --> 00:20:07,559 game and rewatching that, that's not a story that I can tell because I 315 00:20:07,559 --> 00:20:12,359 wouldn't have known enough to know that Tyree didn't need to run that play. 316 00:20:12,440 --> 00:20:18,599 So that's that's kind of I think why being a single game specialist isn't as 317 00:20:18,680 --> 00:20:22,119 much of a negative as it can be build at is sometimes you're free to 318 00:20:22,119 --> 00:20:26,519 no comment this if you would like. But as any team player coach been 319 00:20:26,599 --> 00:20:30,880 like, hey, you're blowing up our spot here, like when you're recognizing 320 00:20:30,920 --> 00:20:33,240 like these hands singles when you when you're able to relay that piece of information. 321 00:20:34,119 --> 00:20:37,200 No, And I don't think that they would. I mean I did 322 00:20:37,279 --> 00:20:41,079 have. I did have one coach ask me like those are correct? How 323 00:20:41,160 --> 00:20:44,759 did you know that? Or how how do you know what they're doing? 324 00:20:45,240 --> 00:20:47,960 And I said, just watching it off the broadcast, And I go a 325 00:20:47,960 --> 00:20:49,799 lot of times like the broadcast can pick it up like it's Echoe Jim. 326 00:20:49,839 --> 00:20:53,720 You can hear what the call is. And so like anybody like it's kind 327 00:20:53,720 --> 00:20:56,720 of like going back to like this Raptors Knicks things, which obviously I don't 328 00:20:56,759 --> 00:21:00,599 know the whole details of how like these play calls taken from the Knicks to 329 00:21:00,599 --> 00:21:06,039 the Raptors, but like anybody watching the full game tape can see what, 330 00:21:06,960 --> 00:21:10,039 you know, the signals are, you just have to be paying attention to 331 00:21:10,119 --> 00:21:12,559 what then goes on at the court at the same time. And I would 332 00:21:12,599 --> 00:21:15,319 never personally, just never be able to do that. I could watch it 333 00:21:15,319 --> 00:21:18,480 at ten times, and it's just there's so much happening. And one of 334 00:21:18,480 --> 00:21:22,200 the you know, you just said something that I received one of the earliest 335 00:21:22,200 --> 00:21:25,359 piece of advices when I started was it was in regard to defense, but 336 00:21:25,359 --> 00:21:27,880 it was like, don't watch the ball, watch what's happening around the court. 337 00:21:29,319 --> 00:21:32,839 There's so much happening around the court that I just can't take it all 338 00:21:32,880 --> 00:21:36,599 in. And so I'm constantly in awe of you and other people were able 339 00:21:36,640 --> 00:21:40,279 to I don't care how many watches it takes you that you can distill down 340 00:21:40,519 --> 00:21:44,759 every granul level of a play from from its genesis where it's like, oh, 341 00:21:44,759 --> 00:21:47,279 that's the hand signal, this is this is about to happen. That 342 00:21:47,400 --> 00:21:51,319 is just that's otherworldly shit to me. I'm not gonna lie. I think 343 00:21:51,319 --> 00:21:53,839 that that mainly like and some of this I said earlier that like I was 344 00:21:53,880 --> 00:21:57,480 watching my dad's enjoyment or Reggie Miller forcing overtime. Like I wanted to go 345 00:21:57,559 --> 00:22:02,559 on pretty much every scouting trip that he went on originally because I was playing, 346 00:22:02,599 --> 00:22:03,960 and I wanted I thought, you know, watching as many games as 347 00:22:03,960 --> 00:22:07,559 I could, I was going to get better as a player than when I 348 00:22:07,599 --> 00:22:10,799 was no longer playing. It was I'm watching this from you know, my 349 00:22:10,880 --> 00:22:14,039 dad's perspective, and I want his team to win games. So like I 350 00:22:14,079 --> 00:22:17,200 would watch him on scouting trips, and that's what he was always doing, 351 00:22:17,240 --> 00:22:21,400 Like it was his job to know what plays as the opposing team running, 352 00:22:21,440 --> 00:22:23,200 and are what type of defense are we going to run when they run those? 353 00:22:23,240 --> 00:22:26,440 So like he was always watching hand signals, always watching what play calls 354 00:22:26,440 --> 00:22:30,279 were, and I always was, like you, I was always marveling at 355 00:22:30,279 --> 00:22:33,720 how much he could take in when we were sitting there live in a gym, 356 00:22:33,759 --> 00:22:36,720 So that kind of trained where my eye goes. I think, like 357 00:22:36,799 --> 00:22:38,640 as an adult now, I think I noticed that, like, oh, 358 00:22:38,799 --> 00:22:44,279 I'm doing what my dad used to do with these games. One of the 359 00:22:44,319 --> 00:22:48,119 other things that I really like about your stuff is you're good at recognizing and 360 00:22:48,200 --> 00:22:53,799 explaining what's happening, So like that diagnosis, but then there's also prognosticating, 361 00:22:53,799 --> 00:22:59,519 where it's talking about or recognizing what teams could do to counter what they could 362 00:22:59,519 --> 00:23:02,400 do to a drip asked this, whether it's even can be resolved with the 363 00:23:02,440 --> 00:23:07,000 current personnel. Then you also do you call it draft Caitlin, which is 364 00:23:07,200 --> 00:23:10,519 an amazing version of Caitlin and even just the And I know you're not like 365 00:23:10,559 --> 00:23:14,519 the biggest fan of hypothetical trades and free agency stuff, but one of my 366 00:23:14,559 --> 00:23:18,039 favorite pieces that you wrote was when the Pacers were thinking about and ultimately gave 367 00:23:18,119 --> 00:23:23,240 DeAndre at and like aside one of the most kindest match me offer sheets in 368 00:23:23,240 --> 00:23:26,720 the history of offer sheets. Basically, like you were able to break down 369 00:23:27,119 --> 00:23:30,839 what you thought as fit would be with the Pacers. You had talked and 370 00:23:30,880 --> 00:23:34,440 written about Jaris Walker before he was even on the Pacers, and even now 371 00:23:34,519 --> 00:23:38,880 talking about Bruce Brown. What is I guess it's a twofold question. What's 372 00:23:38,880 --> 00:23:44,039 more one enjoyable, but two more challenging for you is that the diagnosis and 373 00:23:44,160 --> 00:23:47,960 prognosticating aspect of this and feel free to correct me if I'm just like framing 374 00:23:48,000 --> 00:23:52,400 that the wrong way or the like. Conceptual theoretical fits of players, draftees, 375 00:23:52,400 --> 00:23:56,200 free agents whoever, who haven't yet taken the court with this team. 376 00:23:56,680 --> 00:24:00,920 Yeah, I mean, I think that my preference was always going to be 377 00:24:00,039 --> 00:24:07,160 to be descriptive and describing why teams won or lost, rather than being predictive 378 00:24:07,200 --> 00:24:11,480 and prognosticating. I think that that's really difficult, and that's like what front 379 00:24:11,519 --> 00:24:14,559 offices have to do. That's what coaches have to do, that's what scouts 380 00:24:14,599 --> 00:24:17,279 have to do. They have to be able to see, you know, 381 00:24:17,400 --> 00:24:19,720 somewhat into the future and know, like, that's what counter is going to 382 00:24:19,799 --> 00:24:23,440 be, and what are we going to do if that happens. I typically 383 00:24:23,519 --> 00:24:27,400 like to look back at what just happened and explain to you why it happened. 384 00:24:29,039 --> 00:24:30,960 But we don't always get to do that in this business. Sometimes we 385 00:24:32,079 --> 00:24:36,960 do have to stray into hey, you know, how does Jaris Walker fit 386 00:24:37,039 --> 00:24:38,880 on the Indiana Pacers, even though I've never seen him play a game at 387 00:24:38,920 --> 00:24:42,240 the professional level, And you do have to try to your best to make 388 00:24:42,400 --> 00:24:47,440 educated guesses or like, you know, not a lot of time to prepare 389 00:24:47,519 --> 00:24:51,440 when the Pacers make a blockbuster trade for Tyrese Haliburton, and you don't expect 390 00:24:51,440 --> 00:24:53,240 in any way, shape or form that Tyrese Haliburton is going to be playing 391 00:24:53,240 --> 00:24:56,559 for your team. So, like that particular night, I spent the entire 392 00:24:56,640 --> 00:25:00,400 night up. I watched several Kings games in a row, tried to get 393 00:25:00,440 --> 00:25:03,240 a better feel for his game. Obviously I'd watched the King's play before, 394 00:25:03,279 --> 00:25:07,519 I'd watched Tyrese play before, but not with the expectation of what he would 395 00:25:07,559 --> 00:25:10,079 be doing for the Pacers. And then it just kind of becomes, hey, 396 00:25:10,160 --> 00:25:12,960 what were the problems that the Pacers were having? This is my process? 397 00:25:14,559 --> 00:25:17,480 And like, oh, well, teams are going under against Caris Laverte 398 00:25:17,480 --> 00:25:19,880 a lot when he's on ball, And oh, Malcolm Brogden can't really shoot 399 00:25:19,960 --> 00:25:25,680 going to his left and he typically only drives. So if you get Tyrese 400 00:25:25,720 --> 00:25:29,240 Haliburton and he's good at, you know, pull up shooting and stopping and 401 00:25:29,319 --> 00:25:32,039 popping, he's also somebody that you would want to week to go to his 402 00:25:32,119 --> 00:25:34,039 left, but for the opposite reason, because he isn't going to drive, 403 00:25:34,039 --> 00:25:37,720 he's going to be more likely to shoot. Then it just becomes you know, 404 00:25:37,960 --> 00:25:40,240 I'm going to write about that. I'm going to write about how he 405 00:25:40,279 --> 00:25:42,359 addresses these problems. And I think that's typically the way that I look at 406 00:25:42,359 --> 00:25:45,559 it, or even with Bruce Brown, like what's something that the Pacers were 407 00:25:45,640 --> 00:25:48,759 missing last year? Now I'm going to go watch his game and how does 408 00:25:48,799 --> 00:25:52,839 he address those things. That's a little bit easier, especially when it's at 409 00:25:52,839 --> 00:25:56,599 the NBA level and you have actual NBA tangible results to go off of, 410 00:25:56,759 --> 00:26:00,960 versus when the draft, I think is just so difficult. I do not 411 00:26:00,160 --> 00:26:07,119 envy people that make actual draft decisions and it's hard. Yet another thing if 412 00:26:07,160 --> 00:26:11,279 anyone can't tell I don't even care that I'm totally fan personing right now about 413 00:26:11,279 --> 00:26:15,359 your work. That is just so cool. Is a lot of people who 414 00:26:15,440 --> 00:26:19,240 can provide or identify the inform and relay the information that you do. They're 415 00:26:19,319 --> 00:26:23,559 not I don't want to be brutal here, but like writing is not a 416 00:26:23,640 --> 00:26:26,880 forte of theirs. I think it might be the kindest way to say it, 417 00:26:26,960 --> 00:26:29,279 Like a lot of their stuff can be dry, It can need a 418 00:26:29,279 --> 00:26:33,599 lot of heavy editing from people outside the writer itself. You have a very 419 00:26:33,640 --> 00:26:37,119 distinct style and tone, the stuff you talk about. I think, look 420 00:26:37,160 --> 00:26:40,400 for me at times, it can be complex, but you make it so 421 00:26:40,480 --> 00:26:42,960 accessible because of your writing style and tone in the way you describe that. 422 00:26:44,480 --> 00:26:48,319 Is that something that you focused on developing over time? Did it come naturally? 423 00:26:48,400 --> 00:26:51,319 Do you have like some secret pullets or background that we don't know about. 424 00:26:52,920 --> 00:26:56,599 I think that a lot of what I do probably comes from the standpoint 425 00:26:56,640 --> 00:27:00,519 of I have a background in history. I studied his in college very extensively, 426 00:27:02,119 --> 00:27:04,960 and this is kind of what you do when you're writing papers, Like 427 00:27:06,000 --> 00:27:11,599 I actually looked up something I wrote from many moons ago and remembered what my 428 00:27:11,680 --> 00:27:15,359 professor wrote on the paper. I was taking an upper level Russian history course 429 00:27:15,759 --> 00:27:21,000 and it was about the chronicles of Novgorod, and we were just assigned, 430 00:27:21,000 --> 00:27:25,240 you know, right, write something that you noticed from this primary source and 431 00:27:25,519 --> 00:27:27,519 you know, synthesize it. And at the time I was like agonizing, 432 00:27:27,519 --> 00:27:30,759 like, oh my gosh, I'm not noticing anything. I'm not noticing any 433 00:27:30,799 --> 00:27:33,839 patterns. What details am I going to write from this? And I ultimately 434 00:27:33,960 --> 00:27:37,200 end up thinking, you know, I think that there might have been a 435 00:27:37,240 --> 00:27:41,839 shift in who the actual writer of this was, and that there ended up 436 00:27:41,880 --> 00:27:45,079 being like a miscovie bias in terms of like religion and politics after the shift. 437 00:27:45,079 --> 00:27:48,240 And so that was the paper that I wrote, and my professor answered 438 00:27:48,279 --> 00:27:52,119 back and was like, I've never seen somebody make this connection before and this 439 00:27:52,200 --> 00:27:56,960 is the most like my new detail. But it was really well done. 440 00:27:56,960 --> 00:28:00,599 But this is not what I was looking for. And I feel like that's 441 00:28:00,680 --> 00:28:03,839 what my basketball writing is a lot of the time too. Like in history, 442 00:28:03,880 --> 00:28:07,400 you kind of have to be a detective looking for clues and you're kind 443 00:28:07,400 --> 00:28:11,640 of you know, I feel like I was always in that field, magnifying 444 00:28:11,759 --> 00:28:17,519 nuances a lot and looking at like hypergranular topics to make what arguments I was 445 00:28:17,559 --> 00:28:21,960 going to make. And I think that that's still parlays into basketball and why 446 00:28:22,000 --> 00:28:25,599 I am as detail oriented as I am. And I never wanted my writing 447 00:28:25,599 --> 00:28:27,839 in history to be dry either. That's something that I work really hard at 448 00:28:29,200 --> 00:28:32,599 that I want people to walk away from it when I have Sometimes i'll give 449 00:28:32,640 --> 00:28:34,839 it to my sister, which my sister does not really enjoy basketball, and 450 00:28:34,880 --> 00:28:37,599 that's the exact reason why I'll have her read it, because I'll be like, 451 00:28:37,799 --> 00:28:41,200 were you did you hate this? Did you understand it? Like? 452 00:28:41,279 --> 00:28:45,559 Do you walk away and get what I'm talking about. And I use her 453 00:28:45,559 --> 00:28:48,839 as my litmus test because if if she can walk away from it understanding it 454 00:28:48,880 --> 00:28:52,480 and didn't think it was, you know, the most dry thing she's ever 455 00:28:52,519 --> 00:28:56,119 read that, I'm like, I did something there. I've accomplished the task. 456 00:28:56,640 --> 00:28:57,759 That's a great way to do it. That's a level of thought in 457 00:28:57,799 --> 00:29:00,960 the product that I don't think most people, including myself and I put stuff 458 00:29:00,960 --> 00:29:04,960 out, would think would think to do. Are there aside from your dad, 459 00:29:06,079 --> 00:29:10,119 obviously, if there been any whether it's writing influences, basketball influences when 460 00:29:10,119 --> 00:29:12,640 it comes to how you evaluate or think about the game in your life that 461 00:29:12,720 --> 00:29:17,240 have, like you know, particularly want influence you to reiterate the word or 462 00:29:17,279 --> 00:29:19,559 just lessons whatever they told you that it was stuck with you. Yeah, 463 00:29:19,599 --> 00:29:23,759 I mean, I think my understanding of the game predominantly comes from my dad. 464 00:29:23,839 --> 00:29:26,240 That was the person that I went to a lot of the time when 465 00:29:26,279 --> 00:29:30,720 I was growing up. Obviously I was around other coaches because of him. 466 00:29:30,759 --> 00:29:33,400 I mean, I'd be at scouting trips and if it was a high profile 467 00:29:33,440 --> 00:29:36,880 game, there'd be coaches from a lot of schools that would be sitting there, 468 00:29:36,920 --> 00:29:38,799 and of course they weren't going to engage with like a twelve year old 469 00:29:38,880 --> 00:29:42,079 daughter about what they were thinking and seeing. But I was always listening and 470 00:29:42,119 --> 00:29:45,359 taking in what they were saying. So that was a big part of it. 471 00:29:45,440 --> 00:29:48,480 And then at the writing level, and I hope people don't take this 472 00:29:48,559 --> 00:29:52,519 the wrong way, but it is the truth. If there's national articles written 473 00:29:52,519 --> 00:29:56,039 about the Pacers, I try really hard not to read them because I don't 474 00:29:56,039 --> 00:29:59,519 ever want my work to be derivative. Like and it's writers that I like, 475 00:30:00,079 --> 00:30:03,160 I just always read them when they're writing about other teams, and so 476 00:30:04,200 --> 00:30:07,880 I don't. I don't take in a lot of Pacers content. I try 477 00:30:07,960 --> 00:30:11,240 really hard not too so that people are getting what my opinion is or what 478 00:30:11,319 --> 00:30:14,119 my you know, if you want to use the word take what my take 479 00:30:14,240 --> 00:30:15,799 is. But I do have several people I admired. I'm not just saying 480 00:30:15,839 --> 00:30:19,599 this because I'm sitting here talking to you. I really do admire your work 481 00:30:19,640 --> 00:30:25,200 and your writing verve. I've compared it before. But like, I read 482 00:30:25,240 --> 00:30:26,799 pieces that Rob Mahoney writes, and when I get to the end of it, 483 00:30:26,839 --> 00:30:30,039 I'll be like, I'm never going to write a sentence that good. 484 00:30:30,079 --> 00:30:33,880 Why do I even do this, and I feel similarly when I read your 485 00:30:33,920 --> 00:30:37,799 stuff sometimes, like when you do your player rankings, like I do not 486 00:30:37,920 --> 00:30:41,880 care about player rankings. I genuinely do not. Like you can put the 487 00:30:41,920 --> 00:30:44,839 pacer players wherever you want to, like you can have tires as higher as 488 00:30:44,880 --> 00:30:45,960 low. I'm not going to have any reaction to that. But I do 489 00:30:47,039 --> 00:30:51,039 go for the blurbs, and you are very good with the blurbs. Rob 490 00:30:51,079 --> 00:30:53,039 Mahoney also very good at the blurbs. So those are two people that I 491 00:30:53,079 --> 00:30:56,000 read a lot. As far as like actual analysis, I think a lot 492 00:30:56,000 --> 00:31:00,319 of Mike Prata. I really value the way, like with the book that 493 00:31:00,319 --> 00:31:03,920 he just published, that he can explain very complex topics and he doesn't rely 494 00:31:04,440 --> 00:31:08,000 on film or you know, static screenshots in that book, Like there are 495 00:31:08,079 --> 00:31:12,680 some graphics and some you know court like xs and ohs, but very minimally 496 00:31:12,759 --> 00:31:17,799 and you still totally understand what he's talking about. And then also I really 497 00:31:17,839 --> 00:31:22,359 like Samson Folk and Lewis Zatzman at Raptors Republic. I think the best compliment 498 00:31:22,400 --> 00:31:26,240 that I can give Sampson is that if you gave me one of his pieces 499 00:31:26,279 --> 00:31:27,839 of writing and I did not know that he wrote it, I would know 500 00:31:27,920 --> 00:31:30,759 that he wrote it, and he also knows the game inside it out. 501 00:31:32,200 --> 00:31:34,079 And I just think Lewis is like a genius, Like he can relate anything 502 00:31:34,119 --> 00:31:37,640 to basketball, like give him any analogy. Like I literally read a piece 503 00:31:37,640 --> 00:31:45,000 fro him last year about Gary Trent Jr. Comparing the tulip market and in 504 00:31:45,039 --> 00:31:48,599 the Netherlands, and it made perfect sense. It made perfect sense like it 505 00:31:48,960 --> 00:31:55,079 was. It was a tremendous article. You turned me on to Sampson Folk, 506 00:31:55,400 --> 00:31:59,920 who is really good. Also, Rob Mahoney is on the Mount Rushmore. 507 00:32:00,119 --> 00:32:01,440 I would have to plush it out. Katie Heindel's definitely there too. 508 00:32:01,519 --> 00:32:05,640 Of all, like Mount Rushmore, of read them and feel bad about how 509 00:32:05,640 --> 00:32:10,680 you're writing about yourself exactly. They're both on that level. So this is 510 00:32:10,759 --> 00:32:15,160 one I've talked to you about. I know you've dabbled in it. I 511 00:32:15,160 --> 00:32:17,559 know you've been reluctant to and said that you don't necessarily want to do it. 512 00:32:19,039 --> 00:32:22,559 And I'm imagining fans. I'm not imagining. I've seen fans from other 513 00:32:22,599 --> 00:32:25,160 teams try to recruit you. Have you ever given any thought to branching out 514 00:32:25,279 --> 00:32:30,480 beyond like Pacers covered and doing more league wide stuff with the caveat that you 515 00:32:30,519 --> 00:32:35,799 did just go on a Central Division preview podcast with Danny LaRue on the Real 516 00:32:35,839 --> 00:32:38,359 GM, which was fantastic by the way. But have you given any thought 517 00:32:38,680 --> 00:32:43,319 or did you ever have any desire even to branch out beyond just covering the 518 00:32:43,359 --> 00:32:45,839 Pacers. I mean, I think about it. I wrote the piece about 519 00:32:45,920 --> 00:32:49,960 Eric mean, it really wasn't about Eric Gordon. It was about defensive perception 520 00:32:49,960 --> 00:32:52,240 and spacing in general at five thirty eight a couple of years ago. And 521 00:32:52,279 --> 00:32:57,480 what I would tell people of that pieces that came about in part because there 522 00:32:57,559 --> 00:33:00,960 was rumors that the Pacers might acquire Eric Gore. So I started watching film 523 00:33:00,960 --> 00:33:05,000 and I noticed, like, the way he's being guarded is really interesting. 524 00:33:05,039 --> 00:33:07,400 That's a story that somebody would should write. And then it was actually my 525 00:33:07,480 --> 00:33:10,279 vacation, Like when I was still at any Corners, we would get a 526 00:33:10,319 --> 00:33:15,160 half quota in August and September which would allow me to do like deeper projects, 527 00:33:15,200 --> 00:33:19,880 and so I spent my vacation writing that piece for five thirty eight. 528 00:33:19,880 --> 00:33:23,359 It took like two weeks. And I think that that's the thing that maybe 529 00:33:23,400 --> 00:33:28,799 everybody doesn't fully understand, is that I think the reason people like me is 530 00:33:28,839 --> 00:33:32,039 because I am only covering one team, because this is the level of work 531 00:33:32,119 --> 00:33:37,000 that it takes to produce those types of pieces. If I was doing all 532 00:33:37,079 --> 00:33:39,440 thirty teams, I don't think it would be me anymore. And at that 533 00:33:39,519 --> 00:33:44,000 point, like, I think the writing is better when you're interested in the 534 00:33:44,039 --> 00:33:47,079 topic that you're writing about. And like the night before I did that Central 535 00:33:47,079 --> 00:33:51,519 Division pod, I was very grateful that Danny asked me, and I worked 536 00:33:51,559 --> 00:33:53,319 really hard on it. But I was talking to a friend in this space 537 00:33:53,359 --> 00:33:57,240 and I told him I was like, I'm doing the Central Division pod tomorrow 538 00:33:57,319 --> 00:33:59,279 and I was like, I'm nervous. I just think all of my takes 539 00:33:59,279 --> 00:34:01,400 are so base, And like when I got done off of it, I 540 00:34:01,480 --> 00:34:06,480 was just like I didn't say really think anything that in depth about those other 541 00:34:06,519 --> 00:34:09,840 teams, Like it just it didn't feel the same to me, Like and 542 00:34:10,000 --> 00:34:14,559 I just didn't feel like me. So I get I get it not feeling 543 00:34:14,559 --> 00:34:16,559 the same, but I would push back heavily that they're that like that was 544 00:34:16,599 --> 00:34:21,480 not a derivative like podcast by you at all. That was everyone should check 545 00:34:21,519 --> 00:34:23,800 it out. It's a real GM. It was the Central Division, So 546 00:34:24,280 --> 00:34:28,159 I mean, maybe you're just inherently more familiar with those teams because they're in 547 00:34:28,199 --> 00:34:30,039 the same division. But I didn't, And you know, it was like 548 00:34:30,440 --> 00:34:34,000 it was like a freaking week of work. Like I spent like two or 549 00:34:34,039 --> 00:34:37,880 three days preparing for each team so that I could share my very basic takes. 550 00:34:37,280 --> 00:34:39,079 Yeah, you don't want to they weren't. First of all, they 551 00:34:39,079 --> 00:34:42,760 weren't very basic. But you don't want to stress yourself out to that degree. 552 00:34:42,960 --> 00:34:45,360 I did not ask you this, and the outlines on you. But 553 00:34:45,360 --> 00:34:47,840 if you could cover one team that wasn't the Pacers, have you ever thought 554 00:34:47,880 --> 00:34:51,920 about which team that would be? Oh, it probably would have been the 555 00:34:51,960 --> 00:34:54,039 Nuggets. I know that that's going to sound very bandwagon, but if you 556 00:34:54,159 --> 00:34:57,840 had asked me that question two or three years ago, it still probably would 557 00:34:57,840 --> 00:35:01,400 have been the Nuggets. I just in part because I don't think Yokis seems 558 00:35:01,400 --> 00:35:04,760 like the type of player that would stay point. It would still need to 559 00:35:04,760 --> 00:35:07,920 be a small market. Because I just value, like I value very much 560 00:35:07,960 --> 00:35:12,719 that I've been in this sphere covering the Pacers in the state where I grew 561 00:35:12,760 --> 00:35:15,000 up, covering a team that not a lot of people cover, and I'm 562 00:35:15,000 --> 00:35:16,519 not sure that my work would have gotten noticed if I was in a bigger 563 00:35:16,559 --> 00:35:21,280 market with a lot of different writers doing the same type of writing that I 564 00:35:21,320 --> 00:35:25,039 do. But I also just really like watching players like Yokich, like Tyrese 565 00:35:25,079 --> 00:35:29,800 Haliburton and trying to understand the way that they process the game and trying to 566 00:35:29,800 --> 00:35:31,920 figure out how they operate as supercomputers. So I think that that would be 567 00:35:32,000 --> 00:35:36,599 a really fun star to cover. And I do think that, like I 568 00:35:36,719 --> 00:35:38,679 like the model that d NVR uses a lot. I think that's cool. 569 00:35:38,800 --> 00:35:43,880 So yeah, it probably would have been the Nuggets. I would read a 570 00:35:43,920 --> 00:35:45,400 lot of Kaitlin Cooper, Nakole Yokich. I'm not gonna lie about that. 571 00:35:45,639 --> 00:35:49,639 Although the team that I would be most interesting in seeing you cover would be 572 00:35:49,679 --> 00:35:52,920 the Thunder. I just feel like you would have a ton of interesting stuff 573 00:35:52,920 --> 00:35:54,320 to say about them, so that would be that would be my pick for 574 00:35:54,360 --> 00:36:00,519 you. I finally have some lighter fair questions before I read for these, 575 00:36:00,719 --> 00:36:07,320 I'm ready, so let's start with you briefly, have pulled back the curtain 576 00:36:07,639 --> 00:36:13,000 on player Tateman. What was the defining skill set or trade or attribute whatever 577 00:36:13,199 --> 00:36:16,800 of player Tateman, player Caitlin and my mail bag was mainly a story about 578 00:36:16,800 --> 00:36:23,039 how obscenely large my uniform was because it was we got assigned uniforms based on 579 00:36:23,119 --> 00:36:27,360 our height, and I was one of the taller people on my team. 580 00:36:27,400 --> 00:36:30,360 And then the next year I got told that we would get to pick our 581 00:36:30,440 --> 00:36:34,840 numbers, which was true, but I was the youngest player on the team, 582 00:36:34,880 --> 00:36:37,400 so I got to pick last, and I still had a way oversized 583 00:36:37,480 --> 00:36:43,760 uniform. But beside the point actual play style. It's funny because I literally 584 00:36:43,800 --> 00:36:46,039 asked my dad this question within the last month. I was like, okay. 585 00:36:46,199 --> 00:36:49,440 People always say, like, if you were going to compare your game 586 00:36:49,480 --> 00:36:52,400 to an NBA player, like, who would that be? Like, not 587 00:36:52,480 --> 00:36:55,760 that I'm as good as this NBA player, obviously, but he sat there 588 00:36:55,800 --> 00:36:59,639 for like twenty minutes. I'm not joking. He's like, this is really 589 00:36:59,639 --> 00:37:01,039 hard, and I was like, I know, because as a player like 590 00:37:01,079 --> 00:37:05,920 I really there wasn't a way to describe me. Like from sixth grade until 591 00:37:05,960 --> 00:37:08,079 I was no longer playing, I played every position but point guard, So 592 00:37:08,159 --> 00:37:12,679 do not compare me to any point guards because that is not applicable. And 593 00:37:13,119 --> 00:37:15,480 I'm five six. I was very good at rebounding for my position. I 594 00:37:15,559 --> 00:37:20,639 averaged a large number of rebounds over my career, and then I played with 595 00:37:20,679 --> 00:37:24,760 my back to the basket a lot despite being undersized. So my dad ultimately 596 00:37:24,800 --> 00:37:28,760 came up with Charles Barkley and I a future Hall of Famer. No I 597 00:37:28,840 --> 00:37:31,480 was not, but he said that that's what he thought was most comparable. 598 00:37:31,480 --> 00:37:35,320 And I will let people know that we ran a shuffle motional offense. If 599 00:37:35,320 --> 00:37:37,000 you don't know what that is, you can look it up. And that 600 00:37:37,199 --> 00:37:42,840 skill set is not very useful in that type of offense. People people can 601 00:37:42,880 --> 00:37:45,320 probably figure that out. But that was my role. So if I got 602 00:37:45,320 --> 00:37:49,960 to add lib within sets, I was typically posting up and wanting to use 603 00:37:50,000 --> 00:37:52,960 some type of German O'Neil footwork that I had watched from a DVD and try 604 00:37:53,000 --> 00:37:57,159 to put that into use. So, as you can tell, I made 605 00:37:57,159 --> 00:38:00,800 a lot of sense to be a five six, very skinny forward in an 606 00:38:00,840 --> 00:38:05,599 oversized uniform as the youngest player on a team, playing a back to the 607 00:38:05,639 --> 00:38:12,480 basket game in motion shuffle offense, grabbing every rebound. Okay, So whether 608 00:38:12,519 --> 00:38:15,960 it's about covering the league, watching the game, if you're a player, 609 00:38:15,000 --> 00:38:21,639 what is Caitlyn Cooper's biggest basketball I ah, this is something I actually tweeted 610 00:38:21,639 --> 00:38:25,480 as a prompt my number one basketball ick and if I watched this and it 611 00:38:25,559 --> 00:38:30,840 happens, this was literally the reason I tweeted out that prompt that day is 612 00:38:31,000 --> 00:38:35,719 I can't stand it when it's after halftime or a coach calls the time out 613 00:38:35,760 --> 00:38:37,519 and you can very clearly tell that a player does not know what the play 614 00:38:37,679 --> 00:38:40,960 was, that they weren't paying attention to the huddle and they don't know the 615 00:38:40,960 --> 00:38:44,440 play, and then it screws it up and somebody else on the courts having 616 00:38:44,480 --> 00:38:46,800 to tell them what to do, like number one, I are we just 617 00:38:46,840 --> 00:38:51,480 throwing shade at Christian Wood right now? Is that happening? I will say 618 00:38:51,519 --> 00:38:54,239 that there is a player on the Pacers within like the last five years who 619 00:38:54,280 --> 00:38:59,679 was a very repeat. You would see them, this would happen fairly often. 620 00:39:00,079 --> 00:39:02,159 They would not know to play, like I would know what they're supposed 621 00:39:02,199 --> 00:39:08,840 to do with the time I knew they were messing it up. That is 622 00:39:08,920 --> 00:39:15,800 actually incredible and if you're the coach of the Pacers, somewhat concerning. So 623 00:39:15,960 --> 00:39:16,840 I don't think there's a term for this, and if there is one, 624 00:39:16,840 --> 00:39:22,159 I'm too old to know it. Apparently, what is Caitlyn Cooper's Basketball Beloved. 625 00:39:22,480 --> 00:39:24,480 If a player or a coach does this, or even if it's a 626 00:39:24,480 --> 00:39:29,400 fan something with covering the game does this, that they're going to be ingratiated 627 00:39:29,440 --> 00:39:32,360 to you for an indefinite period of time. I forgot one of my Basketball 628 00:39:32,400 --> 00:39:37,400 IX two is when a coach like has to make the really exaggerated like this 629 00:39:37,519 --> 00:39:42,519 signal, like go to the other end of the court fast. It's like, 630 00:39:42,559 --> 00:39:45,880 no kidding, that's what way we're supposed to go, Like it's demonstrative 631 00:39:45,920 --> 00:39:50,599 and it's ikey, but no. So Basketball Beloved, Yeah, I would 632 00:39:50,679 --> 00:39:53,880 say that this is gonna sound very like old school, but if a player 633 00:39:54,519 --> 00:40:00,360 plays hard regardless of time or score, you will probably have my art. 634 00:40:00,760 --> 00:40:04,440 So, like there's a play in Summer League where like the Pacers were up 635 00:40:04,519 --> 00:40:08,320 like twenty with like two minutes to play, and Andrew Nemhard's still like going 636 00:40:08,440 --> 00:40:12,760 really hard on defense. Like that's just tremendous. I had to clip that. 637 00:40:12,800 --> 00:40:15,800 I had to share it. And then also like something that I've been 638 00:40:15,840 --> 00:40:19,519 focusing on a lot lately, as players who if a play breaks down can 639 00:40:19,559 --> 00:40:25,880 continue playing, So play breakdown progressions or my new thing that I like on 640 00:40:25,960 --> 00:40:30,880 defense is I've come up with this theory that if you can we talk a 641 00:40:30,880 --> 00:40:36,679 lot about unique movers on offense and people that attack defenses uniquely, we don't 642 00:40:36,679 --> 00:40:40,920 really think about that with regard to defenders and people who can attack offenses uniquely 643 00:40:42,119 --> 00:40:46,800 without compromising scheme. So if you're somebody who can help from like an abnormal 644 00:40:46,840 --> 00:40:51,559 position, or you move in a way that's different than other players move doing 645 00:40:51,599 --> 00:40:57,519 that same role, you will also have my heart forever and always. My 646 00:40:57,679 --> 00:41:00,639 final question, and maybe the most important question, what are Kaitlyn Cooper's top 647 00:41:00,679 --> 00:41:05,679 five Outshine popsicle flavors? Oh? Now, this change is a lot I 648 00:41:05,760 --> 00:41:08,079 have. It's a living document. It's much like you know, you gotta 649 00:41:08,199 --> 00:41:12,760 keep adjusting these. But Strawberry will always be the goat popsicle. That's my 650 00:41:12,840 --> 00:41:15,480 staple box that I always keep at home, and then I typically have one 651 00:41:15,519 --> 00:41:19,519 other box and I rotate it. But I would say that at the top 652 00:41:19,559 --> 00:41:23,360 of the board, grape and peach are gonna be there. I've recently come 653 00:41:23,400 --> 00:41:28,159 to really like lemon, and not every store will sell just a box of 654 00:41:28,159 --> 00:41:31,159 the lemon, but that's really good in the summer. And then one that 655 00:41:31,239 --> 00:41:35,360 has shot up the board that I didn't expect to be there, but I 656 00:41:35,639 --> 00:41:38,920 it's a tie between either the pineapple or the creamy coconut. The creamy coconuts 657 00:41:38,920 --> 00:41:43,519 really come on strong lately. I really like that one. I can't picture 658 00:41:43,559 --> 00:41:46,440 that one being good. Grape. I'm a fellow grapey, so I appreciate 659 00:41:46,519 --> 00:41:52,119 the grape is the grape is top two easily. Are you able to because 660 00:41:52,119 --> 00:41:55,119 we're gonna go record another podcast after this, actually, are you just able 661 00:41:55,159 --> 00:41:59,920 to tell our listeners once more where they can find you and all the fantastic 662 00:42:00,079 --> 00:42:02,039 work that you do. Right? So, my Twitter handles at C two 663 00:42:02,079 --> 00:42:05,599 Underscore Cooper. If you go to my handle, you'll find the link to 664 00:42:05,639 --> 00:42:07,639 the patreon as patreon dot com slash basketball. So she wrote, there is 665 00:42:08,159 --> 00:42:12,800 content there that's unlocked. If you just want to do kind of a you 666 00:42:12,840 --> 00:42:15,880 know, look around and go browse and see what it's all about. You 667 00:42:15,880 --> 00:42:19,039 can look there, and then I'd also obviously be very happy to have you 668 00:42:19,079 --> 00:42:22,719 if you want to subscribe and get the content that's locked and participate in my 669 00:42:22,760 --> 00:42:27,280 mailbag send me questions. I love answering questions from the patrons every month, 670 00:42:27,360 --> 00:42:30,840 So come visit. Do it. The link is in the podcast and YouTube 671 00:42:30,840 --> 00:42:36,679 description. I've heard from creators that our listeners have been good about subscribing, 672 00:42:36,719 --> 00:42:39,679 so I expect to hear from Caitlin that she had droves of new subscribes. 673 00:42:39,800 --> 00:42:43,880 How influential you are. That's how influential you are. Neither, they're just 674 00:42:44,000 --> 00:42:46,320 the guests are blowing smoke towards me, which is also which is also fine. 675 00:42:46,599 --> 00:42:50,119 Caitlin, thank you so much for doing this. I will talk to 676 00:42:50,119 --> 00:42:51,039 you again very soon.