1 00:00:01,080 --> 00:00:07,200 You're listening to the Mind Over Murder podcast. My name is Bill Thomas. 2 00:00:07,719 --> 00:00:12,039 I'm a writer, consulting, producer, and now podcaster. I am now 3 00:00:12,080 --> 00:00:16,000 trying to use my experience as the brother of a murder victim to help other 4 00:00:16,079 --> 00:00:20,239 victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book on the unsolved Colonial Parkway 5 00:00:20,320 --> 00:00:24,640 murders, and I'm the co administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together 6 00:00:24,640 --> 00:00:28,440 with Kristin Dilley. My name is Kristin Dilley. I'm a writer, a 7 00:00:28,519 --> 00:00:32,439 researcher, a teacher, and a victim's advocate, as well as the social 8 00:00:32,479 --> 00:00:37,759 media manager and co administrator for the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook page with my partner 9 00:00:37,799 --> 00:00:48,960 in crime, Bill Thomas. Welcome to mind Over Murder. I'm Kristin Dilley 10 00:00:49,000 --> 00:00:54,439 and I'm Bill Thomas. Welcome to an episode of True Crime News Round Up. 11 00:00:54,520 --> 00:00:58,560 This is the third such in that series, and that's just because there's 12 00:00:58,600 --> 00:01:04,040 a ton of true news before we get to true crime news. Kristin Dilley, 13 00:01:04,640 --> 00:01:08,760 Yes, we have some news of our own. Yes we did, 14 00:01:11,040 --> 00:01:14,760 Yes, we did, and I'm very excited about it. I'm too excited 15 00:01:14,799 --> 00:01:19,560 for words, so I'm gonna let you announce our big news. Mister Thomas, 16 00:01:19,840 --> 00:01:23,159 you're kidding. I thought you were going to announce it. Maybe we 17 00:01:23,200 --> 00:01:30,079 can say it together. We have reached an important plateau for two young podcasters 18 00:01:30,079 --> 00:01:34,879 who are new to this business and still bright eyed and bushy tailed. We 19 00:01:34,000 --> 00:01:49,359 have reached one millillion downloads. The crowd goes wild. Yes, we were 20 00:01:49,400 --> 00:01:53,599 just saying it off here that we wish we had one dollar for every single 21 00:01:53,680 --> 00:01:57,480 download, because that would mean we'd have a million dollars. That's true. 22 00:01:57,719 --> 00:02:01,319 Just in case anybody starts thinking that that is not the case. That's not 23 00:02:01,400 --> 00:02:08,680 how it all. Unfortunately, but we realized a couple of weeks ago that 24 00:02:08,919 --> 00:02:13,599 sometime around the first of April, give her take, we were going to 25 00:02:13,680 --> 00:02:17,919 cross over a million downloads. Now, we've been on two podcasting platforms, 26 00:02:19,479 --> 00:02:23,759 one called Anchor and then one called Spreaker, and we're very happy here at 27 00:02:23,759 --> 00:02:27,479 Speaker, and they've been great to us. When you look at your statistics, 28 00:02:27,599 --> 00:02:30,639 which is how many downloads did you have this week and how many this 29 00:02:30,800 --> 00:02:32,800 month and that kind of thing, and our numbers have been good and we've 30 00:02:32,800 --> 00:02:37,599 been very pleased. You'll think about it all that much, though, because 31 00:02:37,639 --> 00:02:43,560 we were on anchor and then spreaker our number total downloads to date was divided, 32 00:02:43,879 --> 00:02:46,199 so I'd forgotten about it. And then Kristen and I were talking about 33 00:02:46,199 --> 00:02:50,360 this a few weeks ago and I said something about I think we're going to 34 00:02:50,719 --> 00:02:53,800 hit a million downloads, and so she said, check when you get a 35 00:02:53,879 --> 00:02:58,759 chance, and lo and behold, we very quietly went over a million downloads, 36 00:02:59,199 --> 00:03:02,759 and so here we are. I'm flabbergasted, I guess would be the 37 00:03:02,800 --> 00:03:07,960 best word. It's pretty cool. It is it's hard to believe that it 38 00:03:08,120 --> 00:03:12,319 happened. And of course now we've been at this for what three years in 39 00:03:12,360 --> 00:03:15,280 a bit? Yeah about that. Yeah. The most important thing to do 40 00:03:15,400 --> 00:03:21,280 is we want to thank all of you for your support. This is incredible. 41 00:03:21,439 --> 00:03:25,879 We didn't expect that this would ever happen. We know other podcasters that 42 00:03:27,000 --> 00:03:30,840 have hit other plateaus, including people that hit a million downloads a month and 43 00:03:30,919 --> 00:03:37,199 crazy numbers like that. We're enjoying this immensely. It's a lot of work, 44 00:03:37,199 --> 00:03:39,960 but I think it's something that we're both still enjoying. Yes, and 45 00:03:40,319 --> 00:03:45,319 we will continue to bring your mind over murder. Please tell your friends and 46 00:03:45,439 --> 00:03:49,319 as Kristen says, from time to time. Don't forget those five star reviews. 47 00:03:50,000 --> 00:03:53,240 Again, thank you all very much for your support. So here we 48 00:03:53,319 --> 00:03:57,759 are. Yeah, this is phenomenal, and as Bill said, we do 49 00:03:57,879 --> 00:04:00,439 enjoy doing the podcast very much, and thank all of you, especially our 50 00:04:00,479 --> 00:04:04,719 listeners who have been with us from minute one, because we do have a 51 00:04:04,800 --> 00:04:08,960 number of people out there who we know have stuck with us through our whole 52 00:04:09,120 --> 00:04:14,199 entire three years. So if you are our longest of the long term listeners, 53 00:04:14,360 --> 00:04:16,480 thank you for sticking with us. We appreciate it, and we know 54 00:04:16,560 --> 00:04:23,399 that sometimes it's not easy growing a podcast, and there is a learning curve 55 00:04:23,519 --> 00:04:27,839 and sometimes some episodes are better than others. But thank you for sticking with 56 00:04:27,959 --> 00:04:30,040 us. For those of you guys that have been here from the very first 57 00:04:30,079 --> 00:04:33,319 moment, we really appreciate it and we hope you continue to stick with us. 58 00:04:33,759 --> 00:04:38,680 I think we got better over time. Those first couple of episodes that 59 00:04:38,759 --> 00:04:45,639 we recorded at your kitchen table over Christmas time that would have been late two 60 00:04:45,480 --> 00:04:49,240 thousand nineteen, yep, late twenty nineteen. When I go back and listen 61 00:04:49,240 --> 00:04:54,560 to them, which I don't do very often, I think we sound a 62 00:04:54,600 --> 00:04:59,160 little nervous and like we're still finding our way, but it's gotten better and 63 00:04:59,240 --> 00:05:02,279 easier. It's something that we both really enjoy. I like the podcast where 64 00:05:02,279 --> 00:05:04,839 it's just the two of us, and I like the podcast where we have 65 00:05:04,920 --> 00:05:09,759 guests as well. They're both interesting in their own way, definitely, and 66 00:05:09,800 --> 00:05:14,240 we've just had the nicest group of people who has been willing to come on 67 00:05:14,399 --> 00:05:19,800 and talk about their expertise and share their love of crime and forensics and DNA 68 00:05:20,000 --> 00:05:24,439 and IgG. I think, as you've pointed out a time or two, 69 00:05:24,680 --> 00:05:28,600 no one has ever turned us down and said, yeah, absolutely not, 70 00:05:28,759 --> 00:05:31,480 I'm not going to show up on your podcast. So it's been wonderful to 71 00:05:31,560 --> 00:05:35,600 have all of these amazing people who are willing to share their time and energy 72 00:05:35,639 --> 00:05:40,160 and enthusiasm with us, because that makes our job a whole lot easier and 73 00:05:40,240 --> 00:05:44,600 better too. I'm not saying that I wouldn't enjoy talking with you and doing 74 00:05:44,639 --> 00:05:47,399 episodes just one on one every single day, but I think it's a lot 75 00:05:47,439 --> 00:05:51,959 of fun when we get to have Markolshaker and Jim Fitzgerald and Anne Burgess and 76 00:05:53,279 --> 00:05:57,240 everyone else. So thinking everybody who who has guested with us, and to 77 00:05:57,319 --> 00:06:00,600 everybody who continues to listen to us, we appreciate it. Thank you. 78 00:06:00,040 --> 00:06:03,680 So what's new and true crime news? He asked, Oh, my gosh, 79 00:06:03,720 --> 00:06:09,439 so much. This last week in particular was really crazy, to the 80 00:06:09,519 --> 00:06:14,759 extent that I found myself go into our social media page a couple of times 81 00:06:14,759 --> 00:06:16,759 in one day. I think this was Tuesday, the twenty eighth of March, 82 00:06:17,040 --> 00:06:20,000 and I just found myself going, oh, here's another story, here's 83 00:06:20,000 --> 00:06:24,319 another one up, here's the third. It was a busy news day, 84 00:06:24,680 --> 00:06:29,199 and I would say probably the most stunning of the stories to come out of 85 00:06:29,199 --> 00:06:32,879 the true crime space in the last week or so was the fact that Adnan 86 00:06:33,040 --> 00:06:42,040 Sayed's conviction was reinstated by a Maryland appeals court. I saw that headline come 87 00:06:42,040 --> 00:06:47,040 over my news feed and I nearly dropped my phone. It was absolutely crazy. 88 00:06:47,879 --> 00:06:50,600 Did you see the news when it first came up, or like most 89 00:06:50,639 --> 00:06:54,879 things, did you end up getting a story from me and go, oh 90 00:06:54,959 --> 00:06:57,560 no, what is this? That happens a lot too, but in this 91 00:06:57,600 --> 00:07:01,920 particular example, I had seen the story as well. The stories that initially 92 00:07:02,040 --> 00:07:09,439 ran were incredibly unclear as to what that actually meant, and we do want 93 00:07:09,480 --> 00:07:13,720 to explain that I still think this is a bizarre story, even now that 94 00:07:13,759 --> 00:07:18,319 we understand how this is actually going to work. This case has been mishandled 95 00:07:18,360 --> 00:07:24,680 from the start, and I will offer the opinion it continues to be mishandled 96 00:07:24,800 --> 00:07:28,920 even in these latest developments. Yeah, exactly, So let's go ahead and 97 00:07:28,920 --> 00:07:30,879 get into it. So, as I said, in a very startling and 98 00:07:30,920 --> 00:07:36,240 studying turnaround, on March twenty eighth, Maryland's Appeals Court reinstated the murder conviction 99 00:07:36,279 --> 00:07:41,759 against Adnan Sayed. And that is about six months after he was freed from 100 00:07:41,800 --> 00:07:46,759 prison for the nineteen ninety nine murder of his girlfriend Hayman Late. So here's 101 00:07:46,839 --> 00:07:54,120 ultimately what happened. The Maryland Appeals Court agreed that Hayman Lee's family had not 102 00:07:54,240 --> 00:07:59,879 been given sufficient notice to attend the hearing that ultimately ruled that the conviction should 103 00:07:59,879 --> 00:08:05,360 be vacated. So until a new hearing can be held about the evidence that 104 00:08:05,600 --> 00:08:11,800 was used to vacate his conviction, the charges against him have been reinstated. 105 00:08:13,519 --> 00:08:16,639 That does not mean, however, that he is going back to prison. 106 00:08:16,839 --> 00:08:22,759 And I think that was the first concern that everybody had upon hearing, that 107 00:08:22,000 --> 00:08:26,240 is, does that mean this poor man has to go back to prison? 108 00:08:26,720 --> 00:08:30,600 And thankfully that does not seem to be. I'm going to actually quote from 109 00:08:30,680 --> 00:08:33,840 NBC here because they have some excellent reporting in a lot of cases, they 110 00:08:33,919 --> 00:08:37,799 have stated things better than I can. So, according to reporting from NBC, 111 00:08:39,399 --> 00:08:43,519 Tuesday's decision and the new hearing are seen as a procedural issue, and 112 00:08:43,600 --> 00:08:48,200 there is no reason to believe that Sayed will be sent back to prison. 113 00:08:48,879 --> 00:08:56,240 Oddnan's attorney, ericas Suitor, had this to say with regard to this newest 114 00:08:56,360 --> 00:09:01,080 twist in the Oddnan Sayed case. Quote, the appeal is not about Odnan's 115 00:09:01,120 --> 00:09:09,879 innocence but about notice and mooteness. There is no basis for re traumatizing Oddnan 116 00:09:09,039 --> 00:09:16,080 by returning him to the status of convicted felon. Ensuring justice for Hayman Lee 117 00:09:16,240 --> 00:09:20,240 does not require injustice for Adnan, which I think is a very good point. 118 00:09:20,960 --> 00:09:26,399 Agreed. I still find myself shaking my head because I think this is 119 00:09:28,039 --> 00:09:33,080 not really rectifying the situation. But I'll let you continue. So here's the 120 00:09:33,120 --> 00:09:37,480 sequence of events that happened that said all of this in motion. Prosecutor Becky 121 00:09:37,519 --> 00:09:43,639 Feldman contacted Haym and Lee's brother, Young Lee on September the twelfth and let 122 00:09:43,759 --> 00:09:50,120 him know the state is filing emotion to vacate Adnan Sayed's conviction in his sister's 123 00:09:50,240 --> 00:09:54,159 case. He was given only a few days notice of the hearing time, 124 00:09:54,279 --> 00:09:58,279 which would have required him to fly from his home in California to attend in 125 00:09:58,399 --> 00:10:03,039 person, stated Young Lee's lawyer. He ultimately was not able to get to 126 00:10:03,080 --> 00:10:07,320 the hearing in person. He was able to zoom in on a zoom call, 127 00:10:07,679 --> 00:10:13,840 but the family has basically stated that's not enough. We needed to be 128 00:10:13,879 --> 00:10:18,759 able to be there in person. Bill, as the family member of a 129 00:10:18,840 --> 00:10:24,480 murder victim, how is that sitting with you? Well, I feel like 130 00:10:24,519 --> 00:10:30,600 the prosecution completely blew this thing. If they thought about this more than a 131 00:10:30,639 --> 00:10:35,879 few days in advance and thought to notify Young Lee with a reasonable amount of 132 00:10:35,919 --> 00:10:41,320 notice. I think the thing I find most frustrating about this situation is that 133 00:10:41,519 --> 00:10:46,200 this obviously wasn't decided in a day. This was in process, I would 134 00:10:46,200 --> 00:10:52,200 say, at a minimum for weeks, and more likely for months. They 135 00:10:52,279 --> 00:10:58,200 should have thought to invite Lee's family sooner than just a few days beforehand. 136 00:10:58,440 --> 00:11:03,200 He's supposed to drop every thing he's doing in fly from California to Maryland to 137 00:11:03,320 --> 00:11:09,440 attend this hearing and now, I feel like the decision to go back and 138 00:11:09,919 --> 00:11:13,840 do a redo almost on this hearing. According to the reporting we've seen so 139 00:11:13,879 --> 00:11:20,519 far with NBC, New York Times and other publications, there's no expectation of 140 00:11:20,519 --> 00:11:24,679 a different outcome here. It's pretty easy for me to put myself, I 141 00:11:24,720 --> 00:11:30,240 think, in Lee's position, because he's the brother of a murder victim, 142 00:11:30,360 --> 00:11:33,159 and he wanted to be there, and he should have been given sufficient notice. 143 00:11:33,879 --> 00:11:39,960 What I'm not clear on is how does going back and doing a perfunctory 144 00:11:39,360 --> 00:11:46,240 revisitation of this hearing with the same outcome, how is that really helping things 145 00:11:48,120 --> 00:11:54,039 exactly? And there actually was a dissenting judge in this case, Judge Stewart 146 00:11:54,159 --> 00:12:00,480 Berger. He basically said in an opinion about the decision to reinstate his conviction, 147 00:12:00,679 --> 00:12:03,879 quote, Lee's family does not have a right to speak at the hearing 148 00:12:05,200 --> 00:12:11,480 over whether to vacate a conviction, and electronic attendance was most likely sufficient to 149 00:12:11,519 --> 00:12:16,159 satisfy the family's rights as in to attend the trial. Judge also allowed Lee's 150 00:12:16,159 --> 00:12:18,559 brother to make a statement to the court, so he said, in his 151 00:12:18,720 --> 00:12:24,159 mind, like you said, why are we doing this? It should have 152 00:12:24,159 --> 00:12:28,159 been enough for them to be on a zoom conference because them being in the 153 00:12:28,200 --> 00:12:31,919 courtroom wasn't going to affect the outcome anyway. And Adnan's lawyer did say, 154 00:12:33,120 --> 00:12:37,399 we are living in a state now, a state of we're not at a 155 00:12:37,440 --> 00:12:39,639 state of emergency anymore with COVID, but we are still living in a state 156 00:12:39,879 --> 00:12:43,799 where zoom calls are at the norm. Witness you and I do in a 157 00:12:43,840 --> 00:12:50,320 podcast to via zoom. She feels that a zoom conference is more than sufficient 158 00:12:50,480 --> 00:12:54,279 to satisfy that right of the Lee family being able to attend a hearing and 159 00:12:54,320 --> 00:13:00,240 offer an impact statement. They're definitely people on both sides who are like, 160 00:13:00,279 --> 00:13:03,080 why are we doing this a second time? It's not going to change the 161 00:13:03,120 --> 00:13:07,600 outcome of it. Eight days very odd. Yeah, I find the whole 162 00:13:07,600 --> 00:13:13,360 thing incredibly frustrating. If the prosecutors had done this right the first time, 163 00:13:13,679 --> 00:13:18,000 if they've given the Lee family sufficient notice, we wouldn't be having this discussion. 164 00:13:18,320 --> 00:13:22,039 And I don't see how doing this all over again now that a non 165 00:13:22,080 --> 00:13:28,000 Sayed's sentence has been vacated. I don't see how this do over is getting 166 00:13:28,120 --> 00:13:35,360 us anything here. If anything, now we're driving Sayed's nightmares because it does 167 00:13:35,360 --> 00:13:41,399 appear that he did not kill himanly after serving all of these years, and 168 00:13:41,480 --> 00:13:46,879 so now we create all of this uncertainty six months after this gentleman was released. 169 00:13:46,399 --> 00:13:54,240 The whole thing has been so badly handled. I'm flabbergasted. I understand 170 00:13:54,320 --> 00:14:01,360 the Lee's frustration and even anger at not being consulted and not being given sufficient 171 00:14:01,440 --> 00:14:05,480 notice, but I don't see how this resolves anything. I agree with you. 172 00:14:07,159 --> 00:14:13,200 The day after this announcement, so Wednesday, March twenty ninth, Robbia 173 00:14:13,279 --> 00:14:16,120 Chadre, who has done the most work on Oddnon's case, went ahead and 174 00:14:16,200 --> 00:14:20,480 hosted an Instagram live session so that she could explain what's going on, and 175 00:14:20,600 --> 00:14:26,720 it was you can feel, you could just feel the frustration radiating off of 176 00:14:26,720 --> 00:14:31,799 her. This has obviously been an ordeal for everybody involved in the side case. 177 00:14:31,840 --> 00:14:33,840 And I'm not saying that the Lee family hasn't had a hard time, 178 00:14:33,879 --> 00:14:39,200 of course they have, but this really does seem to be like, what 179 00:14:39,320 --> 00:14:41,879 are we going to accomplish with this? Other than basically saying, hey, 180 00:14:43,000 --> 00:14:46,840 we screwed up the first time procedurally, let's fix that now. I don't 181 00:14:46,840 --> 00:14:52,919 think you're going to do over on something like this. They can't fix this. 182 00:14:52,919 --> 00:14:56,720 This seems completely pointless to me. So we don't have or at least 183 00:14:56,720 --> 00:15:01,759 I was unable to find at this point today April fifth, when a new 184 00:15:01,840 --> 00:15:05,799 hearing will be scheduled, but I have to assume it will be fairly soon. 185 00:15:07,480 --> 00:15:13,240 We'll continue to post updates about odd Non Sayd's conviction hearings and so on 186 00:15:13,279 --> 00:15:16,159 and so forth. But let's hope that the second time around the redo his 187 00:15:16,519 --> 00:15:24,000 conviction is once again vacated and he does continue to walk as a freeman after 188 00:15:24,039 --> 00:15:28,120 all of these years. I did see some reporting that referenced a sixty day 189 00:15:28,159 --> 00:15:33,759 time frame, so that would be from March twenty eighth to approximately May twenty 190 00:15:33,799 --> 00:15:37,960 eighth. I think this will be resolved one way or another by the end 191 00:15:37,960 --> 00:15:43,120 of May, let's hope. So. In other news, we've been a 192 00:15:43,159 --> 00:15:50,679 little hesitant to cover this case because we've found that when we've discussed school shootings 193 00:15:50,840 --> 00:15:58,039 on Mind over Murder in the past, immediately everything seems to get so politically 194 00:15:58,200 --> 00:16:03,159 polarized. Yeah, between our friends who were on the liberal side of the 195 00:16:03,279 --> 00:16:07,480 conversation and on the conservative side of the same conversation. And then of course 196 00:16:07,519 --> 00:16:11,840 we have a lot of people that are somewhere in the middle. I don't 197 00:16:11,840 --> 00:16:15,679 think we can let this pass without offering you some sort of update regarding the 198 00:16:17,039 --> 00:16:22,919 Nashville Covenant shooting. This past week, the Nashville Police Department released an inventory 199 00:16:23,039 --> 00:16:27,720 of the property that was seized from twenty eight year old Audrey Hale after last 200 00:16:27,759 --> 00:16:33,440 week's mass shooting at the Covenant School. Hale as killed three nine year old 201 00:16:33,519 --> 00:16:38,679 students at Covenant School, as well as three adults three administrators at the school, 202 00:16:38,799 --> 00:16:45,440 including the head of school and a beloved custodian. This terrible incident unfolded 203 00:16:45,480 --> 00:16:49,159 in less than fourteen minutes from the time the police were called to the time 204 00:16:49,240 --> 00:16:57,279 that the Nashville Police Department responding in an incredibly professional and brave way. Those 205 00:16:57,320 --> 00:17:02,120 of you that saw the video of the officers making their way into the school 206 00:17:02,159 --> 00:17:07,720 and quickly clearing room after room while seeking the shooter, I couldn't help but 207 00:17:07,839 --> 00:17:14,920 think of Vivaldi and the completely botched response from the law enforcement people in Texas 208 00:17:15,559 --> 00:17:19,880 versus the incredible job that these officers did in Nashville. You're not going to 209 00:17:19,960 --> 00:17:25,240 see me shed any tears to see a school shooter shot to death, thus 210 00:17:25,279 --> 00:17:30,319 preventing additional children and staff and others being put at risk. But Yeah, 211 00:17:30,359 --> 00:17:37,599 that body camp footage was incredible. I have heard some criticism in recent days 212 00:17:37,640 --> 00:17:42,160 that as well done as that operation was, people that are Marine Corps trained 213 00:17:42,319 --> 00:17:48,720 and other people who have a serious military training said, even though the Nashville 214 00:17:48,720 --> 00:17:52,720 Police Department did an outstanding job, there are lessons to be learned from that 215 00:17:52,799 --> 00:17:56,960 outcome, and that those officers took steps which may have put themselves at greater 216 00:17:57,119 --> 00:18:03,680 risk if they've been going up again someone who was more experienced. Perhaps There's 217 00:18:03,720 --> 00:18:08,079 been some back and forthing in the media about whether we're going to call Audrey 218 00:18:08,400 --> 00:18:15,640 he or she. I've actually been defaulting more to she recently. It does 219 00:18:15,680 --> 00:18:19,640 appear that Audrey was in the process of transitioning, and I don't think that 220 00:18:19,720 --> 00:18:25,880 has anything to do with her mental illness or the fact that she killed six 221 00:18:25,960 --> 00:18:30,640 people and then got herself killed basically by the Nashville Police Department. Yeah, 222 00:18:30,680 --> 00:18:36,960 most of the reporting that I've seen has defaulted to she. It has been 223 00:18:36,960 --> 00:18:38,480 a little bit of a question in my mind, like how should we be 224 00:18:38,519 --> 00:18:44,799 doing what pronounce should we be using to reference the shooter as we do our 225 00:18:44,880 --> 00:18:48,160 reporting, And because most of the news media outlets have been defaulting to she 226 00:18:48,920 --> 00:18:52,200 that's the stance that we're going to take, at least on my side, 227 00:18:52,200 --> 00:18:56,039 I will, and that is not meant in any way to be disrespectful and 228 00:18:56,200 --> 00:19:00,079 their gender identity. That just seems to be how most people are referring to 229 00:19:00,119 --> 00:19:03,640 it, and so that is going to be my default as well, unless 230 00:19:03,960 --> 00:19:07,599 proven otherwise or given other instructions. So I just want to make sure that 231 00:19:07,640 --> 00:19:14,759 we're clear on the pronouns there. There is a manifesto, if you will, 232 00:19:15,079 --> 00:19:19,400 that is supposed to be released at some point once the FBI and other 233 00:19:19,480 --> 00:19:26,240 law enforcement agencies signaled that it's okay to be released. It's very clear now 234 00:19:26,319 --> 00:19:30,200 in the past few days with additional reporting that we were talking about someone who's 235 00:19:30,240 --> 00:19:37,519 seriously mentally apparently was planning this assault for months. She had studied previous mass 236 00:19:37,519 --> 00:19:42,920 shooters and had an incredibly detailed plan about how she was going to take out 237 00:19:42,960 --> 00:19:48,599 this school where she had once been a student. Among the items seized from 238 00:19:48,640 --> 00:19:52,279 the shooters home where she lived with her parents, in addition to the weapons 239 00:19:52,279 --> 00:19:56,799 that she carried to the school, was at twelve Gage Mossberg ninety, At 240 00:19:56,799 --> 00:20:03,960 twenty Gage Winchester, twelve hundred miscellaneous firearms accessories and AMMO bag with targets and 241 00:20:03,039 --> 00:20:08,279 empty ammo boxes, six different laptops, seven different cell phones, at least 242 00:20:08,319 --> 00:20:15,640 twenty journals, including items labeled psych folder slash medical folder. She had hung 243 00:20:15,640 --> 00:20:19,519 on to five years of yearbooks from the Covenant School and a school photo, 244 00:20:19,680 --> 00:20:25,440 and then of course they required a suicide note. The whole thing just seems 245 00:20:25,720 --> 00:20:30,079 incredibly sad, and as usual, I find myself thinking, is there any 246 00:20:30,119 --> 00:20:34,920 way this could have been prevented? Because the ramp up here to the shooting 247 00:20:36,240 --> 00:20:42,920 is so pronounced. She purchased seven weapons in a matter of days, and 248 00:20:44,000 --> 00:20:47,400 I think that's something that we as a society need to be looking at. 249 00:20:47,559 --> 00:20:52,359 Should we be permitting people to buy multiple guns and thousands of rounds of ammunition 250 00:20:52,880 --> 00:20:59,759 in fairly short order. I think that's usually a sign that there's something seriously 251 00:20:59,759 --> 00:21:03,920 going wrong here. I was looking at this inventory item list, and this 252 00:21:04,119 --> 00:21:10,319 was the actual photos of that inventory were posted by the New York Post, 253 00:21:10,559 --> 00:21:15,559 and I'm getting all of the contents of this from that inventory list. I 254 00:21:15,720 --> 00:21:19,440 was interested in two things in particular. Number one, one of the inventory 255 00:21:19,480 --> 00:21:25,640 items lists three folders and fourteen journals. It looked like it could have been 256 00:21:25,640 --> 00:21:27,759 either fourteen or nineteen. I'm going to error on the side of fourteen. 257 00:21:27,920 --> 00:21:33,319 It said three folders fourteen journals, and then behind it in parentheses it read 258 00:21:33,519 --> 00:21:40,400 school shootings and firearms Courses. So I'm thinking that this is the studying related 259 00:21:40,440 --> 00:21:44,720 to school shootings and mass murderers that has been referenced in the press over the 260 00:21:44,799 --> 00:21:47,319 last couple of days. So it sounds like she had done a great deal 261 00:21:47,319 --> 00:21:52,119 of research. And I was interested in just one item on that list that 262 00:21:52,160 --> 00:21:57,400 had been entirely redacted, and that is item number twenty three on the inventory 263 00:21:57,480 --> 00:22:02,680 sheet. So there's forty seven items in total on that inventory list, things 264 00:22:02,680 --> 00:22:07,000 that we're taken from the house, but number twenty three is the only item 265 00:22:07,119 --> 00:22:11,720 that was entirely redacted. And so now, of course I'm very interested in 266 00:22:11,759 --> 00:22:15,920 what item number twenty three is, hoping that there will be some further information 267 00:22:15,000 --> 00:22:21,240 on that moving forward. And then of course this manifesto. These documents are 268 00:22:21,440 --> 00:22:26,400 usually so sad and it will be interesting to see what comes out of this, 269 00:22:26,559 --> 00:22:30,240 but clearly this is an individual who is very disturbed. We're not here 270 00:22:30,279 --> 00:22:37,079 to discuss gun control at any length. I don't think there's much way around 271 00:22:37,119 --> 00:22:41,000 this, and I don't think this is an outrageous overstatement to say that we 272 00:22:41,119 --> 00:22:47,640 as a country need to do something. This is the only country in the 273 00:22:47,640 --> 00:22:53,599 world. The United States is the only country in the world where we're seeing 274 00:22:53,640 --> 00:23:00,960 this problem over and over again. And why is it that places like Australia 275 00:23:02,039 --> 00:23:07,680 and New Zealand and the United Kingdom, when they've had mass shootings have managed 276 00:23:07,880 --> 00:23:15,839 to take reasonable steps to prevent mass shootings of this type. We're not trying 277 00:23:15,839 --> 00:23:19,799 to take anyone's guns away. We're not trying to eliminate the Second Amendment, 278 00:23:19,839 --> 00:23:25,640 which many of my conservative friends hold up as the holy grail. We have 279 00:23:25,839 --> 00:23:30,720 to do something as a country. We can't go on like this. Churches, 280 00:23:32,359 --> 00:23:40,440 synagogues, schools, mosques, movie theaters, grocery stores. I could 281 00:23:40,480 --> 00:23:45,319 just keep naming places. We're not ever going to be able to leave our 282 00:23:45,359 --> 00:23:51,119 house. And when I read about and talk with friends who've got young children 283 00:23:51,480 --> 00:23:59,119 who are confessing that they are memorizing their children's clothing every single day so they 284 00:23:59,160 --> 00:24:04,119 can identify their bodies when they come home from elementary school, I'm sorry. 285 00:24:04,160 --> 00:24:08,920 This is not the way we're supposed to be living our lives. I promised 286 00:24:08,960 --> 00:24:14,920 to climb off this soapbox here, but I really think all of us gun 287 00:24:14,960 --> 00:24:18,960 owners and people that would never ever own a gun, and everyone in the 288 00:24:19,000 --> 00:24:26,720 middle, we have to work together some kind of sensible, thoughtful approach so 289 00:24:26,799 --> 00:24:33,279 that crazy people cannot amass a group of weapons and go in and slaughter school 290 00:24:33,359 --> 00:24:38,119 kids in a school in Nashville or anywhere else. My biggest fear is that 291 00:24:38,400 --> 00:24:42,599 we're talking about Nashville right now, and we'll be talking about somewhere else next 292 00:24:42,640 --> 00:24:48,240 week. It happens over and over again, so end of rant. I 293 00:24:48,279 --> 00:24:55,200 tried very hard not to be political, but I think as a country, 294 00:24:55,319 --> 00:24:59,359 we've got to do. And of course, as a teacher, this is 295 00:24:59,359 --> 00:25:03,960 a worst case scenario nightmare for me who goes into a high school every single 296 00:25:03,039 --> 00:25:07,519 day of the teaching year, hoping and praying that this will not be the 297 00:25:07,599 --> 00:25:11,799 day that something happens at my school. And fortunately we have such a wonderful 298 00:25:11,839 --> 00:25:15,559 school community where I teach, and couldn't ask for a better place to teach 299 00:25:15,599 --> 00:25:21,079 and to work and a better community. You're listening to, mind over Murder 300 00:25:21,079 --> 00:25:30,920 will be right back after this word from our sponsors. We're back here at 301 00:25:30,920 --> 00:25:34,839 Mind over Murder. This actually does go directly to our next true crime news 302 00:25:34,920 --> 00:25:40,920 story, and that is the lawsuit that was filed against Newport News Public School 303 00:25:41,079 --> 00:25:45,319 from Abigail's Warner, the twenty five year old teacher who was shot in her 304 00:25:45,359 --> 00:25:48,599 classroom by her six year old student in January twenty twenty three, so it 305 00:25:48,680 --> 00:25:52,440 was just a couple of months ago. Abbey has filed a forty million dollar 306 00:25:52,519 --> 00:25:59,000 lawsuit against former Richneck assistant Principal Abbany Parker, Principal Branna Foster Newton, the 307 00:25:59,079 --> 00:26:04,039 Newport News School Board, and former superintendent George Parker. The third very interesting 308 00:26:04,519 --> 00:26:10,160 to read the details of this suit because there is a lot of I would 309 00:26:10,160 --> 00:26:15,000 have to say, damning information in there about the warnings that the school had 310 00:26:15,039 --> 00:26:18,920 about this student on the day of the shooting, and it exposed a series 311 00:26:18,920 --> 00:26:22,960 of failures in working with that student. Now, the student has not been 312 00:26:23,079 --> 00:26:26,240 named, of course, as we would expect, so he is referred to 313 00:26:26,279 --> 00:26:30,799 as John Doe in the lawsuits. So I'm going to go through a couple 314 00:26:30,799 --> 00:26:34,440 of the interesting pieces of information that came out in this lawsuit. So there 315 00:26:34,480 --> 00:26:41,079 were at least three separate warnings that the student had a gun on the day 316 00:26:41,359 --> 00:26:44,759 of the shooting. It came from staff members, and there was at least 317 00:26:44,799 --> 00:26:48,000 one student who came forward and told teachers that he saw the gun, that 318 00:26:48,079 --> 00:26:52,599 the student, John Doe, had revealed the gun to him. Administrations still 319 00:26:52,599 --> 00:26:59,599 failed to act on this part. The lawsuit interestingly revealed a pattern of very 320 00:27:00,000 --> 00:27:03,920 setting and troubling behaviors from this six year old things that made me as a 321 00:27:04,000 --> 00:27:08,039 teacher just it raised the hair on the back of my neck. So here's 322 00:27:08,039 --> 00:27:12,160 a couple of things that came out in this said the complaint for this lawsuit, 323 00:27:12,240 --> 00:27:17,119 And this is reporting from the Today Show and from our local newspaper here, 324 00:27:17,160 --> 00:27:19,359 the Daily Press, who has done an outstanding job thus far on all 325 00:27:19,359 --> 00:27:22,720 of the reporting that they've done. So we do know that the student, 326 00:27:22,799 --> 00:27:29,119 John Doe, attended rich Neck Elementary School for kindergarten in the twenty twenty one 327 00:27:29,200 --> 00:27:33,680 twenty twenty two school year. During that time his kindergarten year, he quote 328 00:27:33,799 --> 00:27:40,920 strangled and choked a teacher and was removed from the school. During that same 329 00:27:40,960 --> 00:27:45,319 school year, he pulled up the dress of a student who had fallen on 330 00:27:45,359 --> 00:27:52,400 the ground and quote began to touch the child inappropriately until reprimanded by a teacher. 331 00:27:52,440 --> 00:27:57,400 That itself was just enough to make me go, WHOA, what is 332 00:27:57,480 --> 00:28:02,440 happening with this child? And why is this kid in a regular school. 333 00:28:02,519 --> 00:28:07,359 I'm sorry, I'll let you continue, But even just this first paragraph, 334 00:28:07,400 --> 00:28:11,400 I'm sitting here thinking, what in the world is little Johnny Doe doing in 335 00:28:11,960 --> 00:28:18,759 regular school? This kid is disturbed. So after that, John Doe was 336 00:28:18,839 --> 00:28:23,559 placed in the Denbe Early Childhood Center. He was allowed to return to rich 337 00:28:23,640 --> 00:28:27,920 Neck for this current school year. At some point during the school year, 338 00:28:27,920 --> 00:28:32,640 and again I know there's still a lot of information that has not been revealed 339 00:28:32,680 --> 00:28:36,960 and probably will not come out for a little bit. Sometime during the school 340 00:28:37,000 --> 00:28:41,200 year, he was placed on what's referred to as just a modified schedule in 341 00:28:41,240 --> 00:28:45,680 the complaint. The schedule was put in place after quote he chased students around 342 00:28:45,680 --> 00:28:48,160 the playground with a belt and an effort to whip them with it, as 343 00:28:48,160 --> 00:28:52,079 well as cursing its staff in teachers. And again, I'm stunned that this 344 00:28:52,200 --> 00:28:56,839 is behavior from a six year old. I don't remember much about what I 345 00:28:56,920 --> 00:29:00,759 was like at six. I just have trouble recognize that I would have had 346 00:29:00,759 --> 00:29:07,119 the cognitive ability to do those things. This is so outside my experience a 347 00:29:07,240 --> 00:29:11,880 kid that might have been considered naughty or disruptive in the first grade, which 348 00:29:11,880 --> 00:29:15,640 admittedly was a long time ago for me, But it just this is so 349 00:29:15,759 --> 00:29:22,599 beyond anything I've ever experienced. The complaint goes on to say that at least 350 00:29:22,640 --> 00:29:26,759 one parent was required to attend school with him daily because of his violent tendencies. 351 00:29:27,359 --> 00:29:33,319 I don't know where that's coming from. That is not a typical accommodation 352 00:29:33,400 --> 00:29:38,559 that is made in any plan for student behavior that I am aware of. 353 00:29:40,240 --> 00:29:44,079 Granted, I am not a special ed teacher. I work with many wonderful 354 00:29:44,119 --> 00:29:48,160 people who are special ed teachers, though, and in our own discussion of 355 00:29:48,200 --> 00:29:52,559 this case, none of them can recall a time in which that accommodation would 356 00:29:52,599 --> 00:29:56,960 have been made for a student. So I will be very interested to know 357 00:29:57,480 --> 00:30:03,880 where did that accommodation plan, whatever you want to call it, Where did 358 00:30:03,920 --> 00:30:07,759 that come from? So John Doe's parents, one of them, was supposed 359 00:30:07,799 --> 00:30:14,240 to be there every single day he was in school, according to the complaint. 360 00:30:14,799 --> 00:30:18,200 Yes, but like I said, I have never heard of that. 361 00:30:18,319 --> 00:30:21,599 Then again, I am a high school teacher, and I know that we 362 00:30:21,680 --> 00:30:25,400 are very different from the elementary school teachers. But I've never heard of that 363 00:30:25,480 --> 00:30:29,960 before. I'm going to continue doing some reporting here from the Daily Press. 364 00:30:30,119 --> 00:30:33,559 We're going to go to this next quote here, Teachers concerns with John Doe's 365 00:30:33,599 --> 00:30:40,559 behavior was regularly brought to the attention of Richneck Elementary School administration, and the 366 00:30:40,640 --> 00:30:45,720 concerns were always dismissed. This is the part that also made me want to 367 00:30:45,000 --> 00:30:51,039 throw things. Quote. Teachers concerns with John Dowe's behavior was regularly brought to 368 00:30:51,079 --> 00:30:55,920 the attention of Richneck Elementary School administration, and the concerns were always dismissed. 369 00:30:56,599 --> 00:31:00,319 Often when he was taken to the school office to address his behavior, he 370 00:31:00,359 --> 00:31:04,440 would return to the classroom shortly thereafter with some type of reward, such as 371 00:31:04,440 --> 00:31:08,240 a piece of candy end quote. That's what we want to be doing, 372 00:31:08,279 --> 00:31:15,519 those rewarding this kid's horrifically bad behavior by sugaring him up and sending him back 373 00:31:15,559 --> 00:31:18,200 into the classroom. Yeah, and I don't know what that's about either. 374 00:31:18,559 --> 00:31:26,680 It doesn't sound like any type of PBIS or positive behavior intervention strategy that people 375 00:31:26,720 --> 00:31:30,880 should be implementing. We've been told in professional development over the years that we 376 00:31:30,920 --> 00:31:36,240 should be trying to reinforce positive behavior and not reward negative behaviors. But this 377 00:31:36,279 --> 00:31:41,480 doesn't sound anything remotely close to something that we should be doing with children, 378 00:31:41,640 --> 00:31:45,519 especially one who is demonstrating violent tendencies like this. I don't know what's going 379 00:31:45,559 --> 00:31:51,440 on with that. Very interesting information coming out in this complaint. This also 380 00:31:51,680 --> 00:31:55,720 is interesting and new. On January fourth, two days before the shooting, 381 00:31:56,279 --> 00:32:01,960 John Doe slammed Abby's Werner's cell phone into the ground and shattered it. For 382 00:32:02,240 --> 00:32:07,960 this, he received a one day suspension, which he served on January fifth, 383 00:32:07,000 --> 00:32:10,359 that is, the day before the shooting. On January sixth, he 384 00:32:10,400 --> 00:32:15,440 was supposed to return to school. He returned to school, as we now 385 00:32:15,480 --> 00:32:19,799 know, with a nine millimeter hand. His mother did not stay with him 386 00:32:19,880 --> 00:32:23,079 during the school day. Again, I'm not entirely clear what that's about. 387 00:32:23,160 --> 00:32:28,160 If the expectation is a parent has to come to school with you, why 388 00:32:28,160 --> 00:32:32,000 would you allow that student to be there by themselves. The complaint also stated 389 00:32:32,200 --> 00:32:37,160 that no one at the school assigned him a one on one companion, so 390 00:32:37,279 --> 00:32:40,640 he didn't have an aid or any other type of adult working with him during 391 00:32:40,680 --> 00:32:47,400 that day. Around eleven fifteen that day, Abby's Werner approached administration with concerns 392 00:32:47,480 --> 00:32:52,039 that the student quote appeared to be in a violent mood. She sated he 393 00:32:52,079 --> 00:32:58,319 had already threatened to physically assault a classmate. Further, according to the complaint, 394 00:32:58,839 --> 00:33:04,079 the Assistant prince Miss Parker had no response and in fact, would not 395 00:33:04,160 --> 00:33:08,160 even look at Abby's Werner as she attempted to discuss the student. This is 396 00:33:08,200 --> 00:33:14,839 insane. They're just completely not dealing with the fact that this kid is completely 397 00:33:14,839 --> 00:33:17,880 out of her During the course of that day between eleven fifteen in the shooting, 398 00:33:17,920 --> 00:33:22,799 which took place at one fifty nine in the afternoon, four teachers reported 399 00:33:22,799 --> 00:33:29,200 concerns about the student and the gun two administrators. A teacher went to the 400 00:33:29,200 --> 00:33:32,519 administration and stated that she thought she saw the student take an object out of 401 00:33:32,519 --> 00:33:37,640 his backpack and place it in the front pocket of his hoodie during recess. 402 00:33:37,440 --> 00:33:45,119 The assistant Principal Parker dismissed that concern saying that his pocket was quote too small 403 00:33:45,240 --> 00:33:50,480 to hold a handgun. I'm so glad that Assistant Principal Parker is such an 404 00:33:50,519 --> 00:33:57,359 expert on firearms that she would know whether or not a handgun would fit in 405 00:33:57,559 --> 00:34:00,920 the pocket of his Hoodie was appalled by that, and that was one of 406 00:34:01,000 --> 00:34:06,359 the first things that came out. I think Durian initial reporting was that statement 407 00:34:06,440 --> 00:34:10,800 had happened and continues to appase. Four adults ultimately reported, we think this 408 00:34:10,880 --> 00:34:15,199 kid has a gun the backpack which he did. He did, he did. 409 00:34:15,239 --> 00:34:20,599 He had a gun which he had gotten at home, and the parent 410 00:34:20,760 --> 00:34:25,119 or parents claim the gun was properly secured, but a six year old kid 411 00:34:25,159 --> 00:34:31,239 managed to take that gun and bring it fully loaded to school. At one 412 00:34:31,360 --> 00:34:36,440 fifty nine pm, Abbey's runer was shot in her classroom. The bullet went 413 00:34:36,480 --> 00:34:39,480 through her left hand, which she held up to deflect what was coming. 414 00:34:39,639 --> 00:34:44,559 The bullet went through her hand and into her chest, the bullet fragments to 415 00:34:44,719 --> 00:34:47,719 remain lodged there. She has had a number of surgeries at this point on 416 00:34:47,800 --> 00:34:52,400 her hand, and according to the interview she recently did on the Today's Show, 417 00:34:52,440 --> 00:34:55,320 it looks like there may be another couple in order. She said, 418 00:34:55,320 --> 00:35:00,519 the bullet fragments are going to stay in her chest for now, and ultimately 419 00:35:00,519 --> 00:35:05,719 that resulted in an ten day hospital stay. At this point, she is 420 00:35:05,960 --> 00:35:10,719 working to regain that equilibrium to do the physical therapy and everything else. That's 421 00:35:10,800 --> 00:35:16,920 required. I wish having nothing but the best. I think that the Newport 422 00:35:16,920 --> 00:35:24,440 News Public School Division needs to be held accountable for what happened at that school. 423 00:35:25,119 --> 00:35:29,880 The administrators who were in the building at that time need to be held 424 00:35:29,880 --> 00:35:36,159 accountable to it. There has been some discussion from the principle who states that 425 00:35:36,199 --> 00:35:39,159 she was never made aware of this situation with the student. She did not 426 00:35:39,280 --> 00:35:42,679 know that there was a gun on campus or a threat of a gun on 427 00:35:42,760 --> 00:35:45,199 campus that day. There was even some discussion on a local news station the 428 00:35:45,199 --> 00:35:50,960 other day that she is threatening to bring a counter suit against Abigail's werner because 429 00:35:51,159 --> 00:35:53,760 of her being named in the suit. Be interested to see whether that continues. 430 00:35:54,119 --> 00:35:59,199 By the way, for this principle to admit that she had no idea 431 00:35:59,519 --> 00:36:06,559 of the problems with this child is unbelievable. I saw the articles that mentioned 432 00:36:06,719 --> 00:36:12,119 that the principle was considering filing a countersuit. Way to show support for your 433 00:36:12,119 --> 00:36:20,760 teachers by filing a lawsuit when you are the responsible person running that school and 434 00:36:20,840 --> 00:36:28,159 you and your assistant principle have failed on every single level to protect the students 435 00:36:28,440 --> 00:36:35,760 and your faculty. I understand that from a defense perspective, the principles. 436 00:36:35,840 --> 00:36:39,400 Lawyers may be advising her that she may have to file a countersuit. Wow, 437 00:36:39,559 --> 00:36:44,320 this does not sit well. No, it doesn't. My heart goes 438 00:36:44,360 --> 00:36:46,599 out to Abby, it truly does. And friends with her aunt, she 439 00:36:46,760 --> 00:36:52,360 is a very dear and special person to me. I've been following everything that 440 00:36:52,440 --> 00:36:55,480 has happened here with Abby with the hope that she has the best possible outcome 441 00:36:55,559 --> 00:37:00,880 here. She has a long road ahead of her, and I feel that 442 00:37:00,119 --> 00:37:06,599 there is no amount of money that can repair the damage that has been done 443 00:37:06,639 --> 00:37:13,079 to her physically, emotionally, mentally. She has every right to file this 444 00:37:13,159 --> 00:37:16,719 lawsuit and I hope that it is successful. When we had posted this on 445 00:37:16,800 --> 00:37:21,280 our social media pages, I did have a friend who pushed back and was 446 00:37:21,280 --> 00:37:23,480 like, you know what, forty million dollars is too much. That's not 447 00:37:23,639 --> 00:37:28,000 fair. You shouldn't be doing that because it's going to impact the school's budget. 448 00:37:28,519 --> 00:37:31,440 I think she deserves every penny of it and more. That is also 449 00:37:31,519 --> 00:37:37,760 coming from someone who feels very deeply for what Abbey is going through. But 450 00:37:37,840 --> 00:37:39,840 what are your thoughts on the price tag there? Bill, Well, the 451 00:37:39,880 --> 00:37:45,960 price tag is just an opening volley. As someone who's negotiated all sorts of 452 00:37:46,000 --> 00:37:52,239 contracts and agreements, record deals, you name it. Forty million dollars is 453 00:37:52,280 --> 00:37:55,800 a starting point. You have to put a figure out there. She could 454 00:37:55,840 --> 00:38:00,760 have said it was one hundred million dollars. It doesn't necessar, sarahly mean 455 00:38:00,880 --> 00:38:04,519 that we're going to end up at forty million dollars. But keep in mind, 456 00:38:04,760 --> 00:38:07,559 this is a twenty five year old teacher who was right at the beginning 457 00:38:07,559 --> 00:38:14,480 of her career. Depending on how badly damaged her hand is, she may 458 00:38:14,599 --> 00:38:17,480 not be able to teach, or she may have to go through the rest 459 00:38:17,519 --> 00:38:22,159 of her life with pain and suffering. She's twenty five years old. She 460 00:38:22,199 --> 00:38:30,239 could be alive for seventy five more years living with the pain of the consequences 461 00:38:30,280 --> 00:38:36,039 that came about because this school system failed to protect her and her students. 462 00:38:36,760 --> 00:38:40,440 There have to be consequences here. This, as you said, Kristen, 463 00:38:40,880 --> 00:38:49,159 falls to the Newport News school system. They failed to protect Abbey and her 464 00:38:49,199 --> 00:38:53,000 students and did a disservice to everyone up to and including John Doe, the 465 00:38:53,079 --> 00:38:59,440 shooter. One other thing I'm still baffled by, and I will be completely 466 00:38:59,480 --> 00:39:07,920 infurious if there are not ultimately charges filed against the parents because these people allowed 467 00:39:07,119 --> 00:39:14,760 this kid access to a deadly weapon, which he took to school and shot 468 00:39:14,800 --> 00:39:22,760 his teacher. There's no way around that, and no responsible parent is going 469 00:39:22,880 --> 00:39:30,599 to allow their six year old access to a deadly firearm. We're lucky he 470 00:39:30,639 --> 00:39:36,119 didn't kill the teacher or other people that day. That could have easily happened. 471 00:39:36,440 --> 00:39:38,920 As it is, we have a teacher who was very badly injured and 472 00:39:39,079 --> 00:39:45,679 fortunately will survive. Forty million dollars, it's just a number. It's just 473 00:39:45,079 --> 00:39:51,239 the start of a conversation. There will be a settlement, in my opinion, 474 00:39:51,480 --> 00:39:54,760 and it will be substantial, and it should serve as a reminder to 475 00:39:54,840 --> 00:40:00,000 Newport News and every school system around the country. You can't just ignore the 476 00:40:00,039 --> 00:40:06,320 fact that multiple people are reporting problems with a particular child, and on a 477 00:40:06,400 --> 00:40:10,880 given day, four different adults reported that they believe this kid had a gun. 478 00:40:12,639 --> 00:40:15,320 One thing that's not mentioned here, but we did talk about it a 479 00:40:15,360 --> 00:40:17,679 few weeks ago. When we spoke about this case, there was some hope 480 00:40:17,719 --> 00:40:22,400 that they get to the end of the school day and the kid would go 481 00:40:22,480 --> 00:40:25,400 home with the gun. You just think, to yourself, are you insane? 482 00:40:27,079 --> 00:40:34,000 That's your resolution? The law of the land since nine eleven really was 483 00:40:34,199 --> 00:40:38,679 if you see something, say something, and of course that went for suspicious 484 00:40:38,719 --> 00:40:45,519 packages in various places like that, there are signs posted in every school district 485 00:40:45,559 --> 00:40:52,360 if you see something, say something. Four people outside of Abigail's werner saw 486 00:40:52,480 --> 00:40:58,840 something, said something, and it was roundly ignored. That is a may 487 00:40:58,920 --> 00:41:02,840 major problem for me as an educator, but I think for everybody in general, 488 00:41:04,440 --> 00:41:06,920 if the rule of the land is going to be if you see something, 489 00:41:06,960 --> 00:41:10,280 say something, you cannot afford to ignore it when people say something. 490 00:41:12,400 --> 00:41:15,719 That's only some of the true crime news, believe it or not, that 491 00:41:15,840 --> 00:41:21,320 has hit over the last week or so in between the last time that we 492 00:41:21,360 --> 00:41:24,199 recorded episodes, and I'm sure there is going to be more. We have 493 00:41:24,320 --> 00:41:30,960 information to share with you about the exhimation and autopsy of Stephen Smith as related 494 00:41:31,039 --> 00:41:38,519 to the Alec Murda investigation. We also have information about Doomsday Mom Laurie Valo 495 00:41:38,800 --> 00:41:45,039 and her trial which is about to start. So I would say expect another 496 00:41:45,199 --> 00:41:49,599 round of true crime news come in your way in the not too distant future. 497 00:41:50,239 --> 00:41:52,920 Sounds good. If you like what we're doing here on the podcast, 498 00:41:53,039 --> 00:41:57,480 please do make sure that you leave us a five star rating. And review 499 00:41:57,639 --> 00:42:01,480 on any and all of your podcast platforms. That does count for our social 500 00:42:01,559 --> 00:42:06,760 media as well. Please there are places where you can leave reviews on our 501 00:42:06,760 --> 00:42:08,760 mind over Murder Facebook page and we do hope you take the time to do 502 00:42:08,840 --> 00:42:13,639 that as well. Thank you so much for listening to this episode of mind 503 00:42:13,639 --> 00:42:27,920 over Murder. We'll see you next time. Mind Over Murder is a production 504 00:42:27,960 --> 00:42:34,079 of Absolute Zero and Another Dog Productions. Our executive producers are Bill Thomas and 505 00:42:34,239 --> 00:42:38,400 Kristin Dilley. Our logo art is by Pamela Arnois. Our theme music is 506 00:42:38,440 --> 00:42:45,480 by Kevin McLeod. Mind Over Murder is distributed in partnership with Coral Space Media. 507 00:42:45,679 --> 00:42:49,320 You can follow us on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram. You can 508 00:42:49,360 --> 00:42:52,960 also follow our page on the Colonial Parkway Murders on Facebook, and finally, 509 00:42:53,119 --> 00:42:58,800 you can follow Bill Thomas on Twitter at Bill Thomas five six. Thank you 510 00:42:58,880 --> 00:43:00,480 for listening to mind Over Murder.