Hi, and welcome to the nonprofits. And if we got a story for
you now. We picked this one out out of the Insider. It was
written by Amber Middleton and it is about a white supremacist who took MDMA for
a study ecstasy and had snapped him out of his bigoted beliefs. He actually
started questioning why he was doing this, why he was a bigot. This
is a really interesting thing. I'm hoping that maybe we can do some more
research into this. I know there has been some research into MDMA with things
like PTSD in the past, and I think it looks like a wide open
area of possibly therapeutic value. Raphael, do you want to talk about it?
Yeah, this was a super interesting study where MGMA have this profound effect
on this person who really started questioning why they were like a white supremacist bigot.
I guess the first thing I say is all, as with all science
media, take this with a grain of salt. This is one person.
It's very interesting finding, and I'm hoping it really opens up other avenues of
research on MDMA in addition to like a PTSD that people have been studying.
As Like you said, Kelly, this is like it's it's it's an emerging
science. You know, there's not a lot out there yet. There's a
lot of questions. We you know, we don't really understand a lot about
how these drugs are working in the brain. But for me, the connection
between if there is a connection between like PTSD and bigotry, you know,
how much of bigotry is coming from some type of trauma, is some top
point in their lives? And if it is coming from some type of trauma,
can you treat it like PTSD in some ways? You know, clearly
for this person they have this profound effect. And uh, you know,
it's it'll be really interesting to see what the follow up papers are on this,
Helen, Do you have any comments? So can we just apply Brandon
for letting go of bad ideas? Let's lot ran in yay. So I
think that's great. But as someone that took psychology and I did a thesis
study on the effects of MDAMA on generalized anxiety disorder, it was so it
was really it did have really good positive effects. But just because you give
someone a drug and something good happens doesn't mean that this will affect every racist.
Okay, like, don't please, don't give every racist lucinogenic and expect
them not to be racist anymore. That's and how this works. But I
do think because drugs like these can open the mind, it get it helps
you become very introspective and reflect and do a lot of reflecting on why you
think the way that you think, your place in the world. How MDA
can create feelings of great closeness and bonding with other people, but it could
also make you super territorial. So you know, there's positive. There's positive
and negatives to every drug, and it has to do with brain chemistry,
environment, um, you're the way you've been socialized. A whole bunch of
different factors can go into this. Now I think it's sure you're at what
concert? You're my concert that you're at? Yeah, like have profound I
mean, like I hope someone's gone to a concert and stop being a racist.
That'd be great too, So so you know, I think it's commendable.
But this is not science, people, This is just one guy who
took a drug and decided that, Hey, I'm a white supremacist. You
know it's not serving me anymore. Why do I think this way? We're
all just people. I think that's wonderful. But again, like I would
love to see more of a like, you know, a meta analysis of
this rather than just one do have you know, becoming a better person?
But I do applaud Brandon for becoming a better person. So if you're watching
this, Brandon plus for sure, for sure, So oh go ahead,
go ahead, And sorry, I just I definitely think it's just another one
of those, you know, pieces in the overall puzzle that we've continued to
see, uh, you know, time after time where there is something about
these hallucinogenic compounds in the world that when mixed with proper guidance from trained professionals,
we have seen some some pretty incredible results. Again, more often than
not those results aren't you know, hundreds or thousands of people, right,
We're talking about a handful of folks, you know, across all of these
decades of studies. Um, but we do, for instance, have you
know, an account of an individual back in like the seventies that took LSD
and like completely stopped being an alcoholic and like quit cigarettes and like you know,
started becoming a super great, functioning member of society again, So it's
like, okay, that's that's interesting. Um, And I do. I
wonder if maybe maybe our understanding of these you know, compounds would be better
if we hadn't had so much religious garbage for years talking about how all this
stuff was just demons and you know, all that nonsense. What do you
think on that, Kelly, Yeah, that's a good that's that's really a
good question. I mean, MDMA has been around since like nineteen twelve.
I didn't realize that, but it's been around for a long long time,
and um, it was intended to stop bleeding. Actually, I guess there's
a legend that's built up that it was developed as an appetite suppressant, but
it was actually developed as a compound to stop bleeding, which I found really
interesting. Yeah, right, but I don't know how that was. But
it wasn't until the night the late seventies that psychiatrists started to using it for
therapeutic purposes, and they made claims it didn't enhance communication and patients that were,
you know, in session, and it didn't also enhanced their ability to
have insights. So they started doing a lot of research with it at the
time, and just like with LSD, the people who were part of the
research started bring it at home and the chemical hit the street. People started
making it illegal or started making it in the illegal labs, and the next
thing you know, it's a controlled substance. And that's exactly what happened.
And then in the nineteen eighties, during the Reagan administration, they illegalized testing
of all drugs that were illegal, so there was no more testing on MDMA,
no more testing on cannabis, anything that was illegally United States you could
no longer do clinical tests on. And that didn't end until the nineteen nineties
when they started picking it up again and they started finding out that it did
help with PTSD, anxiety and autistic adults, and there was one more pain
and terminally ill patients. So and I'm not sure that it actually got rid
of pain. I don't want to say I'm a veteran MDMA user, but
I have experienced it in my past, and I don't think it got rid
of any of my pain. But I can see where it would have made
it so I didn't care anymore. So I think it might be good for
that. But the people who do use it are really quick to point out
that it should only be given for reactive disorders like PTSD because there are some
psychological conditions that can actually be made worse by it, So you really need
to take it under controlled circumstances with a well, i'd like to say,
with a licensed physician, which is something that can't happen now. But this
is something that we need to do because if it does have this therapeutic value,
we should be using it. We should be helping people. We should
be helping people like Brandon, showing them, giving them that enhanced insight that
maybe what they're doing is wrong. Right, It's seems very very logical to
me, So Helen, you want to add more to it. So like
the research that I do with studies that weren't in the United States, they
were in Israel and other parts of the europe Union where this stuff actually is
being tested on a regular basis. And what's what they have found is that
if there it is taken in a therapeutic setting and it's set and setting,
you know, they're usually with a trained physician that has been trained how to
administrate the minister of the drug, the dosage. You know, they do
all the medical stuff to make sure it's safe. Um they know the patient's
ex sense of history. Um. So That's a big thing too, because
they have to know any physical mental conditions that they may have that it can
actually have an adverse effect. And there, and it's set up so the
therapist is with them the whole time and um bring in asking them questions and
bringing them through the process. This is not I mean, like I'm sure
just you know, Brandon took it for fun and then he stopped being a
racist, which I get. Yes, it's great, but if we want
to use it in a therapytic way, let's use it in a therapic way
like we use any other drug. Like I take adderall in an anti presst
I got prescribed as by my doctor and they're beneficial to me. Have we
treated like something to give people that have you know, um, anger disorders,
you know, alcoholism, you know all these different conditions that they could
be improved by this with a training physician that could help them get over a
lot of you know, things that are causing hinders to their lives. I
think it'd be great, but like anything else, you know, from aspirin
to LSD, they're drugs, and you have to be careful no matter what
drug you're putting into your body that you it's under a doctor's order, you
know, so you know, just just something thing about you know, you
know going forward, you know, because we don't we don't promote you know,
listen, drug produce on this show. You know it should be under
a doctor description, so you know, be safe, be safe children.
Okay, anyway, Raphael, do you have any do you have any other
points to bring up on this. Yeah, I'll just echo everything you just
said. You know, drugs, the dose makes the uh poison, so
every drug can be used in good and bad ways. Um. I'll also
point out that Brandon or Brandon or whatever the person's name was, he didn't
just like overnight go I love all everybody who I used to hate. You
know, he he was working at that. He got himself like some kind
of like inclusive tivity helper and consultant of some type. You started meditating.
And he even admits in the articles that he still has these like anti semitic
and bigoted ideas and points, and that's when he had to do it.
So like you, like Helen said, and like I think I might have
mentioned, you know, this is one guy. It's not it's not a
magic bullet to fix things. And even if it's enough to like reboot your
brain, going, Man, I was an asshole. These all these things,
like so many things in our lives like take time and they take effort.
You know, this is not like you didn't turn a bigot into like
a you know, the most woe quote unquote person on the planet or anything.
You know, So it's um, don't get confused, don't drugs don't
just fix everything immediately. Yeah, sorry, what you got? Yeah,
I think I think that that's a really good, a really good point there.
And um, at at one point in this article it mentions something which
I'm gonna be honest or all I did in fact check because I don't really
care if it's true. It's just an interesting thought one way or the other.
Because it was just like MDMA has been used by the Taliban apparently during
like divine prayer chants, and again like I don't even know if that is
true, but I could see it happening, just like I could see any
religious ceremony occurring with some type of hallucinogenic drug, mainly because spoiler alert,
a lot of them have been for a really really long time, right it's
been. I know, I was shocked. I know something about the way
this volcano has the fumes coming up above the Oracle of Delphi or something.
I don't know, You're gonna have to talk to one of those archaeology but
yeah, it's it's this definitely seems to me like there's a lot to a
lot for us to study, but we have to do it in a responsible
way, um, because I think unfortunately what ends up happening oftentimes is you
get you know those uh, let's just say some former comedian failed at it,
started doing a podcast, you know, works out too much telling people
to like do all this type of drugs on a regular basis. You know,
some some some talking head like that. I'm not sure you know who
I'm thinking of at the moment, but yeah, Kelly, what what else
you got on this for us? With the MDMA, Like, well,
I you know, um, a couple of things I wanted to point out.
I thought it was really interesting that one of the things that snapped Brandon
out when he was under the influence of the MDMA was he started questioning his
relationships and know that he why why can't I keep a relationship? What is
the problem here? And you realize that it was his beliefs, his fascist
beliefs. And I thought that was really interesting because that one of the things
that MDMA supposedly does for you is, you know, you learn to love
people, and if you're not getting that love back, I mean, that's
probably what was making them wonder. And I thought that was interesting. But
does anybody know how MDMA works? Like it it increases the flow and reuptake
of serotonin in your brain. Right, do you anybody know how antidepressants work?
Selexa lexa pro say, yeah, making serotonin in your brain. Yeah,
I just wanted to just want to make a note of that. It
kind of makes you look at microdocing in a whole new light, That's all
I'm saying. So go ahead, Helen, what do you go ahead?
Like? Like this is the thing about like the I think this conversation where
we're having is very important because we're talking about is how do we break people
out of bad ideas? And obviously, like we know that, like you
were pointing out Raphael that he just didn't take MDMA like he had to work
at it, you know, I think the MDA helped him become more introspective
and go and like you say, Kelly, like why my relationship is failing?
You know, um, you know, maybe I have some bad ideas.
And then he started working on those things to be like, Okay,
I need to change the way I'm viewing things. And when those racists I'm
sure now he's trying, when those racist thoughts pop into his brain, he
questions them and he says that's and he works to say that's untrue. You
know, this is just you know, my reactionary brain, you know,
And I think that's great and just. And you know, I would love
if there was a magic drug we could give to all terrible people and we
could just give it to them and you know, they would just stop being
terrible. I would love that. But we live in the world that is
complicated and messy, and if I could take anything away from this story,
and I hope what the people will that it may not be a drug,
but I'm hoping. You know, when you know people come to an AHA
moment, they not only realize that they're at an AHA moment, but they
also need to work afterwards and not fall back into bad belief in bad ideas.
So you know, I'm this made me happy because there's one less asshole
in the world and I love that. So you know, I level a
little bit of positivity on this show, so I'm gonna take it and enjoy
it. Yeah, And I think that's a fantastic way to end on a
good high note. So thanks so much everyone for watching and listening, and
if you want to hear more from the nonprofits,