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Hi, and welcome to the nonprofits. And if we got a story for

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you now. We picked this one
out out of the Insider. It was

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written by Amber Middleton and it is
about a white supremacist who took MDMA for

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a study ecstasy and had snapped him
out of his bigoted beliefs. He actually

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started questioning why he was doing this, why he was a bigot. This

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is a really interesting thing. I'm
hoping that maybe we can do some more

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research into this. I know there
has been some research into MDMA with things

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like PTSD in the past, and
I think it looks like a wide open

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area of possibly therapeutic value. Raphael, do you want to talk about it?

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Yeah, this was a super interesting
study where MGMA have this profound effect

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on this person who really started questioning
why they were like a white supremacist bigot.

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I guess the first thing I say
is all, as with all science

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media, take this with a grain
of salt. This is one person.

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It's very interesting finding, and I'm
hoping it really opens up other avenues of

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research on MDMA in addition to like
a PTSD that people have been studying.

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As Like you said, Kelly,
this is like it's it's it's an emerging

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science. You know, there's not
a lot out there yet. There's a

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lot of questions. We you know, we don't really understand a lot about

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how these drugs are working in the
brain. But for me, the connection

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between if there is a connection between
like PTSD and bigotry, you know,

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how much of bigotry is coming from
some type of trauma, is some top

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point in their lives? And if
it is coming from some type of trauma,

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can you treat it like PTSD in
some ways? You know, clearly

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for this person they have this profound
effect. And uh, you know,

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it's it'll be really interesting to see
what the follow up papers are on this,

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Helen, Do you have any comments? So can we just apply Brandon

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for letting go of bad ideas?
Let's lot ran in yay. So I

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think that's great. But as someone
that took psychology and I did a thesis

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study on the effects of MDAMA on
generalized anxiety disorder, it was so it

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was really it did have really good
positive effects. But just because you give

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someone a drug and something good happens
doesn't mean that this will affect every racist.

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Okay, like, don't please,
don't give every racist lucinogenic and expect

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them not to be racist anymore.
That's and how this works. But I

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do think because drugs like these can
open the mind, it get it helps

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you become very introspective and reflect and
do a lot of reflecting on why you

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think the way that you think,
your place in the world. How MDA

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can create feelings of great closeness and
bonding with other people, but it could

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also make you super territorial. So
you know, there's positive. There's positive

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and negatives to every drug, and
it has to do with brain chemistry,

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environment, um, you're the way
you've been socialized. A whole bunch of

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different factors can go into this.
Now I think it's sure you're at what

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concert? You're my concert that you're
at? Yeah, like have profound I

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mean, like I hope someone's gone
to a concert and stop being a racist.

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That'd be great too, So so
you know, I think it's commendable.

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But this is not science, people, This is just one guy who

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took a drug and decided that,
Hey, I'm a white supremacist. You

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know it's not serving me anymore.
Why do I think this way? We're

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all just people. I think that's
wonderful. But again, like I would

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love to see more of a like, you know, a meta analysis of

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this rather than just one do have
you know, becoming a better person?

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But I do applaud Brandon for becoming
a better person. So if you're watching

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this, Brandon plus for sure,
for sure, So oh go ahead,

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go ahead, And sorry, I
just I definitely think it's just another one

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of those, you know, pieces
in the overall puzzle that we've continued to

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see, uh, you know,
time after time where there is something about

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these hallucinogenic compounds in the world that
when mixed with proper guidance from trained professionals,

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we have seen some some pretty incredible
results. Again, more often than

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not those results aren't you know,
hundreds or thousands of people, right,

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We're talking about a handful of folks, you know, across all of these

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decades of studies. Um, but
we do, for instance, have you

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know, an account of an individual
back in like the seventies that took LSD

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and like completely stopped being an alcoholic
and like quit cigarettes and like you know,

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started becoming a super great, functioning
member of society again, So it's

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like, okay, that's that's interesting. Um, And I do. I

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wonder if maybe maybe our understanding of
these you know, compounds would be better

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if we hadn't had so much religious
garbage for years talking about how all this

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stuff was just demons and you know, all that nonsense. What do you

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think on that, Kelly, Yeah, that's a good that's that's really a

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good question. I mean, MDMA
has been around since like nineteen twelve.

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I didn't realize that, but it's
been around for a long long time,

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and um, it was intended to
stop bleeding. Actually, I guess there's

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a legend that's built up that it
was developed as an appetite suppressant, but

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it was actually developed as a compound
to stop bleeding, which I found really

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interesting. Yeah, right, but
I don't know how that was. But

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it wasn't until the night the late
seventies that psychiatrists started to using it for

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therapeutic purposes, and they made claims
it didn't enhance communication and patients that were,

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you know, in session, and
it didn't also enhanced their ability to

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have insights. So they started doing
a lot of research with it at the

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time, and just like with LSD, the people who were part of the

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research started bring it at home and
the chemical hit the street. People started

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making it illegal or started making it
in the illegal labs, and the next

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thing you know, it's a controlled
substance. And that's exactly what happened.

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And then in the nineteen eighties,
during the Reagan administration, they illegalized testing

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of all drugs that were illegal,
so there was no more testing on MDMA,

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no more testing on cannabis, anything
that was illegally United States you could

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no longer do clinical tests on.
And that didn't end until the nineteen nineties

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when they started picking it up again
and they started finding out that it did

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help with PTSD, anxiety and autistic
adults, and there was one more pain

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and terminally ill patients. So and
I'm not sure that it actually got rid

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of pain. I don't want to
say I'm a veteran MDMA user, but

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I have experienced it in my past, and I don't think it got rid

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of any of my pain. But
I can see where it would have made

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it so I didn't care anymore.
So I think it might be good for

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that. But the people who do
use it are really quick to point out

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that it should only be given for
reactive disorders like PTSD because there are some

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psychological conditions that can actually be made
worse by it, So you really need

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to take it under controlled circumstances with
a well, i'd like to say,

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with a licensed physician, which is
something that can't happen now. But this

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is something that we need to do
because if it does have this therapeutic value,

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we should be using it. We
should be helping people. We should

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be helping people like Brandon, showing
them, giving them that enhanced insight that

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maybe what they're doing is wrong.
Right, It's seems very very logical to

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me, So Helen, you want
to add more to it. So like

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the research that I do with studies
that weren't in the United States, they

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were in Israel and other parts of
the europe Union where this stuff actually is

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being tested on a regular basis.
And what's what they have found is that

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if there it is taken in a
therapeutic setting and it's set and setting,

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you know, they're usually with a
trained physician that has been trained how to

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administrate the minister of the drug,
the dosage. You know, they do

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all the medical stuff to make sure
it's safe. Um they know the patient's

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ex sense of history. Um.
So That's a big thing too, because

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they have to know any physical mental
conditions that they may have that it can

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actually have an adverse effect. And
there, and it's set up so the

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therapist is with them the whole time
and um bring in asking them questions and

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bringing them through the process. This
is not I mean, like I'm sure

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just you know, Brandon took it
for fun and then he stopped being a

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racist, which I get. Yes, it's great, but if we want

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to use it in a therapytic way, let's use it in a therapic way

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like we use any other drug.
Like I take adderall in an anti presst

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I got prescribed as by my doctor
and they're beneficial to me. Have we

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treated like something to give people that
have you know, um, anger disorders,

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you know, alcoholism, you know
all these different conditions that they could

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be improved by this with a training
physician that could help them get over a

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lot of you know, things that
are causing hinders to their lives. I

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think it'd be great, but like
anything else, you know, from aspirin

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to LSD, they're drugs, and
you have to be careful no matter what

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drug you're putting into your body that
you it's under a doctor's order, you

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know, so you know, just
just something thing about you know, you

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know going forward, you know,
because we don't we don't promote you know,

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listen, drug produce on this show. You know it should be under

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a doctor description, so you know, be safe, be safe children.

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Okay, anyway, Raphael, do
you have any do you have any other

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points to bring up on this.
Yeah, I'll just echo everything you just

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said. You know, drugs,
the dose makes the uh poison, so

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every drug can be used in good
and bad ways. Um. I'll also

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point out that Brandon or Brandon or
whatever the person's name was, he didn't

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just like overnight go I love all
everybody who I used to hate. You

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know, he he was working at
that. He got himself like some kind

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of like inclusive tivity helper and consultant
of some type. You started meditating.

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And he even admits in the articles
that he still has these like anti semitic

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and bigoted ideas and points, and
that's when he had to do it.

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So like you, like Helen said, and like I think I might have

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mentioned, you know, this is
one guy. It's not it's not a

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magic bullet to fix things. And
even if it's enough to like reboot your

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brain, going, Man, I
was an asshole. These all these things,

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like so many things in our lives
like take time and they take effort.

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You know, this is not like
you didn't turn a bigot into like

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a you know, the most woe
quote unquote person on the planet or anything.

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You know, So it's um,
don't get confused, don't drugs don't

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just fix everything immediately. Yeah,
sorry, what you got? Yeah,

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I think I think that that's a
really good, a really good point there.

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And um, at at one point
in this article it mentions something which

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I'm gonna be honest or all I
did in fact check because I don't really

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care if it's true. It's just
an interesting thought one way or the other.

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Because it was just like MDMA has
been used by the Taliban apparently during

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like divine prayer chants, and again
like I don't even know if that is

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true, but I could see it
happening, just like I could see any

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religious ceremony occurring with some type of
hallucinogenic drug, mainly because spoiler alert,

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a lot of them have been for
a really really long time, right it's

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been. I know, I was
shocked. I know something about the way

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this volcano has the fumes coming up
above the Oracle of Delphi or something.

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I don't know, You're gonna have
to talk to one of those archaeology but

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yeah, it's it's this definitely seems
to me like there's a lot to a

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lot for us to study, but
we have to do it in a responsible

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way, um, because I think
unfortunately what ends up happening oftentimes is you

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get you know those uh, let's
just say some former comedian failed at it,

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started doing a podcast, you know, works out too much telling people

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to like do all this type of
drugs on a regular basis. You know,

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some some some talking head like that. I'm not sure you know who

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I'm thinking of at the moment,
but yeah, Kelly, what what else

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you got on this for us?
With the MDMA, Like, well,

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I you know, um, a
couple of things I wanted to point out.

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I thought it was really interesting that
one of the things that snapped Brandon

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out when he was under the influence
of the MDMA was he started questioning his

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relationships and know that he why why
can't I keep a relationship? What is

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the problem here? And you realize
that it was his beliefs, his fascist

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beliefs. And I thought that was
really interesting because that one of the things

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that MDMA supposedly does for you is, you know, you learn to love

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people, and if you're not getting
that love back, I mean, that's

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probably what was making them wonder.
And I thought that was interesting. But

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does anybody know how MDMA works?
Like it it increases the flow and reuptake

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of serotonin in your brain. Right, do you anybody know how antidepressants work?

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Selexa lexa pro say, yeah,
making serotonin in your brain. Yeah,

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I just wanted to just want to
make a note of that. It

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kind of makes you look at microdocing
in a whole new light, That's all

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I'm saying. So go ahead,
Helen, what do you go ahead?

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Like? Like this is the thing
about like the I think this conversation where

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we're having is very important because we're
talking about is how do we break people

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out of bad ideas? And obviously, like we know that, like you

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were pointing out Raphael that he just
didn't take MDMA like he had to work

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at it, you know, I
think the MDA helped him become more introspective

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and go and like you say,
Kelly, like why my relationship is failing?

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You know, um, you know, maybe I have some bad ideas.

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And then he started working on those
things to be like, Okay,

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I need to change the way I'm
viewing things. And when those racists I'm

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sure now he's trying, when those
racist thoughts pop into his brain, he

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questions them and he says that's and
he works to say that's untrue. You

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know, this is just you know, my reactionary brain, you know,

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And I think that's great and just. And you know, I would love

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if there was a magic drug we
could give to all terrible people and we

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could just give it to them and
you know, they would just stop being

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terrible. I would love that.
But we live in the world that is

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complicated and messy, and if I
could take anything away from this story,

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and I hope what the people will
that it may not be a drug,

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but I'm hoping. You know,
when you know people come to an AHA

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moment, they not only realize that
they're at an AHA moment, but they

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also need to work afterwards and not
fall back into bad belief in bad ideas.

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So you know, I'm this made
me happy because there's one less asshole

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in the world and I love that. So you know, I level a

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little bit of positivity on this show, so I'm gonna take it and enjoy

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it. Yeah, And I think
that's a fantastic way to end on a

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good high note. So thanks so
much everyone for watching and listening, and

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if you want to hear more from
the nonprofits,