You're listening to the Paranormal UK Radio Network, the best in paranormal talk radio
in the UK and around the world. Welcome to the Paranormal Pendal Podcast,
coming to you from the hearts of Pendle Witch Country in the northwest of England.
My name is Craig Brant, author, investigator and collector of stories.
Join me as we take a journey into the paranoral UFO sightings, cryptozoology and
big cast. This is the Paranoral Pendal Podcast. Welcome to episode forty two
of Paranorimal Pendal, broadcasting to the Paranormal UK Network at PAUK radio dot com.
And for those who've got eagle eyes or eagle ears, whichever way you
look at it. I've actually got the episode number right this time. The
last episode I did with with Gary Jones, I actually mentioned that it was
the wrong episode number, so I've got the right episode number. We are
definitely on number forty two, So yeah. My guest on this episode is
actually a returning guest. Great guests the first time around. Really looking forward
to chatting to him again. Author and researcher Richard Rockbay. Richard has written
a best selling book, The Lights upon the Hills about the Burton Dassett UFO
event of nineteen twenty three, and he's I'm talking to him, Toterdario,
because he's got some updated research and we're also going to have a chat about
a few other subjects as well, hopefully so Richard, it's absolutely great to
have you back. Thanks for coming back on again. Yeah, good evening,
Craig, thanks very much for asking me, no problem. Can I
just ask what the weather's like where you are, because it's absolutely freezing cold
here and we've had a bit of snow and it's all very frosty and it's
beginning to look a lot like Christmas as this it is. Yeah, so
it's it's it's bright, but it's cold but bright here, so we have
the best of both worlds. We've had a bit of sun, a bit
of frost on the ground, but cold and fresh. Yes, it's nearly
at that sea word, isn't it? But I tend to push mine back
as close as possible to the actual tre bar humbug. I know everyone's shouting,
but absolutely I think I'm becoming more more enamored by Christmas the older I
get. I think the opposite way to most people I've been I've been badgering
missus Bryant put the Christmas tree up for the last one. Well, I
think it's up this weekend, so I'm looking for Yeah, there's no law
against it, so you get your tree up whenever you want. There is
not, although I do tend to shout to houses that have gotten them up
in November. Anyway, we digress. Let's talk about your book, The
Lights upon the Hills, the Burton Dassity, UFO events. What's the what's
the crux of the story? Then? What what happened back in nineteen twenty
three? Yeah, so well, yeah, a bit a bit of background.
I originally wrote the book during COVID. I was I was. I
worked through COVID. I was COVID, I was a police officer. But
in the downtime I managed to abuse this this book, which was going to
be an article for the Greater Outer Limits magazine, but it was viewed by
Philip Mantle who suggested to make a book of it Flying Express, so we
so I did that in twenty nineteen and got it published through find Fling Dispress
in November twenty twenty, and I was really pleased with it. I got
really good reception. Really surprised really at the reception it got. And I
was on the podcasts such as Yourself as a great podcast such as Yourselves and
in America, and yeah, it got really good response. But I always
felt I could put more into it, and there was there was other research
I could do, and I felt that, you know, one hundred years
from the event, there might be something which may happen which be worth writing
about. So I decided when I retired a couple of years ago that I
would I would rewrite the book and update it, which is what I've done
now, so it's now twice the size as it was, new research,
fresh research for me. I also got managed to get acts to doctor David
Clark's Spooklights paper, which is very helpful. So I'm aused to get all
that in put and put it into a new updated book which I've now published
on Amazon. So I've self published it now on Amazon. But the initial
story started sort of February, sorry, December nineteen twenty two were lights that
were described which were attributed to ghosts at the time were seen on Burton Dasset
Hills. Now Burton Dasset Hills is in Warwickshire sight in the center of England.
It's about twenty miles south of Birmingham, about twenty miles north of Oxford,
and generally Warwickshire is a flat, rolling, flattis rulling countryside type area,
so I often describe it like the Shire out of Middle Earth. But
within that our model, if you like, is a series of five hills
that reach up on the western side of the county. They're not particularly big
by mountain standard, you know, it's not the Lakes or achieve Its or
anything like that. In fact, they are about six hundred and ninety two
feet is probably the highest one, but they're very prominent because everything else is
relatively flat, and these five hills have had a history in themselves. There
was a village up there, the village of Burton Asset, up to the
medi in the Middle Ages. There's a church there which I'll come on to.
In more recent times, there was a military base that was suspiciously in
my mind, built in nineteen forty three, directly opposite Burton Asset. So
you've got this sort of area, but in nineteen twenty two, by then
it was a recreational area, just like it is now. It's a county
park, so people can go up there and spend their summers and winters walking
around it, walking the dog, taking the sites, etce. In nineteen
twenty two it was often, you know, the past time would be to
go up into the hills and have a walk around. But they started to
get these reports of by various different local residents. Really it started off of
lights were seeing traveling at different speeds, different altitudes on the hills and going
over the hills and particularly round the church, and the story start to grow
until it gets national press. Local press go band because the band Bury Gazette
do a big feature on it and send reporters up to see these lights,
and then the Birmingham Times, the London Times all start sending reporters to the
area to report on the lights which are seen and recorded. And I had
detailer reports from the newspapers and from the locals sort of in the book.
And the lights are attributed to ghosts, I think completely understandably because in nineteen
twenty two we're still suffering from the First World War. Warwickshire was as hit
as hard as any English or British county. Whole villagers can be that the
men folk could be wiped out in a single battle. We'd had the Spanish
flu, which did have its effect over here, but not as bad as
it did perhaps on the continent, so a lot of people had lost their
loved ones and spiritualism which had started off in a round about eighteen sixty seven.
I think it was the Fox Sisters brought it over from America following a
civil war. It had it had it had a sort of naissance after the
First World War, so people would attribute these lights to ghosts, despite them
not being what you would call traditional ghostly sightings. And I think people wanted
to go up to and see these lights. There's a sort of corroboration for
their own spiritualist views at that time. You know that there was some hope
that if there was ghosts on Dassett Hills, then there was an afterlife and
they would see their sons again. So yeah, I think that, and
that's part of the reason it got the attention it did was because of when
it when it happened. But you know this, this is very early on
in in Ufo sightings. Looking looking back now, of course, they had
the Fatima, the Miracle of Fatima, which some people attribute to UFOs.
Some people say it was you know, it was a Christian miracle. But
some people attributed to your UFOs, including her Vongdanik, and he talks at
length about it, and a few other sightings, had a few sightings in
America and a crash ship Aurora and places like that. But this is before
there is any aircraft or drones or anything. Well, there is aircraft,
but it's big, loudy loud biplanes rather than small lights like this. So
yeah, and I guess you know. I found the story initially in a
booking titled The Ghosts of Warwickship by Betty Smith, who's quite a famous local
historian and completely understandable by it was portrayed in nineteen twenties and you know later
on as ghosts. But I just felt, looking back through the prism of
what we know about UFOs now or you pas, to me, it was
a it was a very well recorded, you know, multi witnessed u FO
event, and that was certainly the sort of angle I took took in the
book, and the conclusion I came to in the book when you when you
rule out all the other theories and hypotheses which I have done, and I
detail why it couldn't have been many of other things. Then you are left
if you if you trust the reports that all these people have made, then
you are left with a u FO event that's all really only only thing it
can really be. Yeah, I mean, I suppose if it had been
sort of one or two reports, you could probably dispel most most theories with
regards to U A, P S or UFOs. But you know, it
is interesting that we're talking one hundred years ago, and obviously man flight was,
you know, despite the great leapsfolding technology or during the First World War,
man flight was still in its infancy. And it is interesting that actually,
I mean, I have come across quite a few reports from around about
the turn of the century and into the twenties and thirties, certainly up until
the Second World War, were they did seem to be a spate of UFO
sightings in different areas of the country. Obviously, I'm in the northwestern England,
and there were quite a number in the nineteen twenties and the nineteen thirties
in this area as well. So perhaps these, you know, perhaps these
were sort of like part of a pattern. Yeah, yeah, I mean,
I guess, like I've done with this, people attributed them to different
things at the time, so that we have the ghost rockets, don't we
around about in the Scandinavian countries around about nineteen thirty or which were attributed to
Nazi Germany. Again understandably and not wasn't just the Northwest in Hull and I
think about nineteen or seven there was a report of a craft we'd call it
now going in and out the Humber and bright craft going in out the Humber
and seen by lots of people. So yeah, there's certainly where the reports
there are happening. And in some ways, you know, we need to
push back the reports of UFO sightings beyond nineteen forty seven, which tends to
get you know, tends to be shown as the starting point. But you
know that there is a good body of evidence to say it was happening.
You know, there was there was regular sightings in that early sort of turn
of the twentieth century. Yeah, and I've got no doubt that it goes
back back in history further than that. Well, yes, yeah, without
without doubt, I would say, without doubting it. It's to do with
the record keeping, I guess and as the record the record keeping has got
better, then suddenly, you know, in my view, it's not a
question do UFOs exist anymore that that, you know, you'd like to say
that case has been settled. It now moves on to what are they and
why? I guess, but exactly. Yeah, I mean there was one.
There was one in the sixteenth century in Germany. I think, wasn't
that very famous one? Yeah? Yeah, it was at Nuremberg. I
think that's the one. Yeah that they just yeah, yeah, to re
mind as you're mentioning that. So yeah, I mean, going back,
you know, maybe hundreds of years. I think it's I think it's really
interesting. So what I mean obviously you did a massive amount of research when
when you wrote the first version of the book. But the updated book,
from what you're saying, is now twice the size of the original one.
So what sort of you know, new evidence did you find then when when
you went looking for it? Yeah, So the I suppose with the initial
encounter in nineteen twenty twenty two to February twenty three, I managed to get
hold of more details of the reports from the paper so paper. So originally
I was working with just the Banbury Gazette and a few references to the London
Times. I managed to get hold of some more information. A lot came
from Dr David Clark's Booklights, which he which is a really interesting paper written
by him and a number of others, which talks about lights generally going around
the country and the lights that have been seeing near churches and willow the wisps,
et cetera. But he does talk about Burton Dasset in the context of
it being a booklight flap is how he describes it, and that that give
give us a lot more, give me a lot more information, and pointed
me towards some of the papers that did more sent up reporters, so that
the Birmingham Times in London Time Times sent up reporters to see to see if
they could find these lights, and very often they did. There's a really
good report of a journalist from the London Times who's been sent up, very
skeptical, spends a bit of time in the pub with the locals waiting to
go out just after just as it's turning dark, to see if you can
see these lights, and he toops up the up the hill to tinned up
for the lights and he's sort of saying, well, I didn't see anything
that was that unusual that couldn't be explained. He ends up on Windmill Hill,
which is the tallest hill of the five, and he's looking out just
as the sun going down, and he describes how he saw a golden orb
drop down from the clouds and illuminate the cloud base. So you can imagine
as it's turning dark and this cloud, this object comes down from the clouds
and it's so bright to to cast its light onto the bottom of the clouds
and then sees it zip off at speed to the horizon horizon. Has absolutely
amazed as to what he's seen. And other reporters have come in and they
managed to talk to locals that have seen the lights. And then there's one
where I did mention it in the first book. A man called George Cottrell
who's a local groom, and he sees a light, bluish light which is
near a pond and it's it freaks out the horse that he's with. And
this light has seemed to be moving around at speed and across the hills,
and that was to be later attributed to, you know, the the euthologist
nemesis that is marsh Gas many years later, but you know it clearly wasn't
marsh Gas. But then that reporter actually bumps into somebody fair down the road
that also sees the light, sees the light traveling down north North End village
and he steps out and he sees this light coming at him. So within
an hour or so, you know, maybe less than half a mile away,
that George Cottle account is corroborated by somebody else. So the the paper,
the new information we've got very often corroborated accounts that we knew we already
had. So the there was a My favorite account is the reil wayman who
was in a railway observation signal box and he sees an orange jaw perhaps similar
to the one that reports in Windmill Hill, Uh fly and fly down and
just sort of stop in front of his signal box, and he panics and
he know what to do, and I'm goastually get some more details about that
accounting. The signalman was called W. Corbett, and it says how he
he grabs the giant spanner that they used for changing the signals back then and
goes out to confront this craft. But fortunately perhaps for the craft. The
craft flew off at that point, but he he did ring it through to
the nearby station, who said ring it through to the police. The police
sent out a vehicle to take it account. I mean, you know,
it's they're they're really solid accounts these people have seen and for a signalman to
do that back then, when it's threatening his livelihood, really, you know,
if if people had taken it wrong, he would have just been out
of a job because he had a very responsible job. But he was willing
to put his you know, livelihood on the on the line, reputation on
the line as well to report this. And I think that's partly because there
were so many reports around at that time. Heaf enough to do so excuse
me. So we brought in so I brought in some more information from that,
some more accounts from the paper. We managed to put some more names
to people. There is a good account which was it was a lady that
worked in the vicarage as a maid and previously her her account was that she
just saw a light. She saw a light that she was walking to work
in the vicarage through Burton. That's it. She saw one of these lights
which she describes going hither and thither across the hills. So you imagine go
back to the forwards, up and down, and it's the light that's moving.
But I'm actually get some more information to Although this lady isn't named,
a great great granddaughter, a great granddaughter is and the story was passed down
to her first hand about what she saw, and she states that she did
see the light going when she was walking to work and went to work and
made in the vicarage. But then she had a period of time where every
time she poked her head out of the door to look at it, the
light would appear, and she would poke her head back in, and then
she'd try and do it again, and she poke her head out and the
light would appear again. So you know that this is this isn't you know,
an intelligent light form or it's showing some degree of intelligence. So that
was really good as well, and all sorts of all corroborates you know what
what I had detailed first time round again. Another favorite story of mine is
George White and his and his three friends that go up onto the hill with
a view of you know, saying it's a lord of nonsense, and then
they see a light go over them. And what George says is George White
says, is if felt it go over him. So again, this isn't
this, This is something changing the atmosphere, perhaps giving off downward pressure,
you know, something tangible, you know, all these things to me say
that you know that this was a U f O U a p event rather
something you know, more more wistful or yeah, yeah natural. Yeah,
yeah, that's interesting. I mean that there's obviously then the more you sort
of delved into it, the more firsthand accounts you seem to be finding,
and there does seem to be a lot from there, you know, from
from people have varied shall we say, social standing at the time, because
obviously, you know, you had the maid who who was obviously you know,
slightly down on the on the social scale, shall we say, from
from the guy who was the signal man on the railway. So it's quite
quite a cross section of the population in the area that have seen these things,
isn't there. Yeah, there is, and you know, I think
it was probably seen by hundreds of people, but the you know, it
was the ones that made it into the papers or made it into local accounts
with the tip of the iceberg. You know, people were going up to
see these like it's just for the short period of time, you know,
you know, three three months really, but yeah, I think it was
seen by hundreds of people, but they you know, it was it was
lost but four for the national papers to get involved, you know that the
the surge of reports must have been such that they felt they needed to send
people to it. Yeah, I mean the guy from the from London,
the journalists from London, I think I quite like to have been a fly
on the wall when he got back to got back to his in London after
after his Yeah, I mean, I think a lot of a lot of
journalists start from a you know, no disrespects journalist, but they start from
a position of looking for any reason to debunk these sort of yeah stories.
And then obviously if something like that happened to him, and it obviously sounded
like, you know, quite a dramatic sighting that he had, I can
just imagine how that must have affected him. Yeah, And I think it
wasn't you know, again, they wouldn't back back then, It wasn't just
you know, an hour and twenty minutes up the m forty to get to
get people from London. They have to put a lot of effort to get
journalists up there to see it. But it is funny to say about how
the journalists haven't changed. So when I first released the book on Boxing Day,
the Star ran an article about my book with the headline uphologists believe ghosts
to World War One soldiers are UFOs, which which which wasn't what my intention
was at all. But you know, some things never something's never changed,
don't. Of course, headlines like that sell sell papers, don't they.
Yeah, it's more likely to get attention. But yeah, there we are.
Yeah. No, it's but it's been unfair, isn't it Because it's
it's not it's not what you found, and it's not it's not what you
talk about, is it? So no, no, you know it's not.
Yeah, there are one hundred years on and nothing changes, does it.
That's right. Yeah. I think about politicians as well, but yeah,
yeah, So I mean it's interesting, isn't then that it was over
such a short period of time. It was only over what about three months?
And I assumed that it started abruptly and abruptly sorry, and finished ended
abruptly. I mean, is is there any any indication at all as to
why it was just this three month period? You know, No, there
isn't. I mean, I guess if we knew the reason why the lights
were there, that would help us. But yeah, it's stopped by end
of February nineteen twenty three. After that, strangely, there was an earthquake.
I know, Warwickshaw might not might seem a funny place for earthquakes,
but I remember two thousand and two when we just moved up into the area,
there was an earthquake where we lived, which was I don't know,
maybe ten miles away from bertand As it itself. So Warwickshire does get the
occasional earthquake, but they are few and far between. But I think it
was around March or April nineteen twenty three that the area did did suffer an
earthquake or be subjects of an earthquake. So that maybe feeds in to the
earth light spooklike type theory of what these lights were. But you know,
I have discounted that because the earthlights like the ones in the normal Hassled and
lights in Norway, et cetera. You know, they have been videoed and
they're you know, they're quite short lived really and don't seem to be acting
with any purpose, whereas the descriptions we get from the lights of Burton ass
It do seem to have some sort of purpose to them. And yeah,
I mean again, I like to think of them as one of two things,
either probes that have come down and looking at the area because the area
has some geological interest to them, or intelligent light forms, which as the
term Paul Sinclair coined for his sightings out on the Northeast coast, and the
intelligent life form hypothesis I do think fits a lot. And I I describe
I go into in the book some accounts of commercial pilots who have seen and
had real interactions with intelligence life forms, and you know, the more I
read, the more we research about them, that that does seem to be
more likely, I think than perhaps mechanical not some bolts craft. I do
think there is something in this intelligent like form, a sort of entity in
itself, rather than rather than something mechanical, as you said, Yeah,
yeah, I think that's a good way of putting it. Yeah, I
mean I was. I was very much in the nuts and bolts camp and
these light objects being extraterrestrial origin, I guess I've I've moved somewhat more towards
into dimensional origins. Or it's certainly that is a possibility, yea, And
yeah, because the intelligent like form phenomena, they do seem to be,
you know, for want of a better word, creatures in their own right,
with their own intelligence that can appear and disappear and move search for things
have you know. And again I give a description of in the book of
how one of these light lights illuminated a house as if looking for something,
and it was and the person in the house described it as enough to read
by wow. Yeah, so so there is something in that And isn't it
Yeah, yeah, a little bit sort of stein tingling tingling real, isn't
it? Yeah? It is? I mean, you know, what what
were they doing? But yeah, so I managed to find just through my
research of intelligent like forms, I found a really interesting story of a commercial
pilot that, whilst on a a flight between Germany and England, had a
citing him and his core pilot had a sighting of of two intelligence life forms.
And then I don't want to spoil it for the people buy the book
but basically he has an amazing experience interaction with that like form that goes on
for a period of time afterwards. And yeah, quite a remarkable story which
you know has never been published before. So yeah, that that is in
the book as well, which I'm really pleased about. So can I can
I just tease a little bit how to you. I don't want you to
go into it because it will deter people from buying the book, and I'm
all for for you know, fellow authors. Well, he's yeah, so
he was he was on a flight and he saw he saw a light very
similar to what was described in in Bernandasse in that time nineteen twenty two twenty
three, and he's he's flying a cargo plane actually, and he sees two
lights coming towards him, green lights, and he knows they're not aircraft lights
because they're on the wrong side. So in order for them to be at
the side he's seeing him, it means the plane to flying black backwards right,
And he wakes up his core pilot and these two lights approach him at
speed, and one goes above the plane and one goes underneath the plane,
and the one above he manages to see fly off the one that goes underneath
he loses track of I'm not sure where that went, but there is a
remarkable story of what he says happened to him after that after he saw that
light. And it's interesting you mentioned about the geology as well, just going
back to the area around where all these these lights were being seen, because
I agree that there is there is something to do with geology with a lot
of these repeated sightings and areas where there are a number of sightings. And
I just thought it was interesting that you mentioned that there was an earthquake shortly
afterwards, and I wonder if there's a correlation between between the two things.
Yeah, it would certainly lend itself to that if if you'd go down the
earth light theory. And also we have the roll Right Stones, which are
ten miles sort of due northeast of Burton. That's it now. The all
Right Stones are an ancient monument date from something around the time of Stonehenge,
so two thy five hundred BC something like that, and they are a ring
of stones that are only a sort of knee high something are a bit bigger
than that, but they go from knee high up to maybe chest head height.
And the interesting thing about that is so the legend goeses no matter how
many times you count them, you never get the same number twice. But
I have to add that it does work. So there's somewhere. Even in
the guidebooks they's say there's somewhere between seventy nine to eighty five stones, because
no one's ever really got to the bottom of how many there in that.
Yeah, but that has been an area of report. You've got like blue
lights earthlights being seen there, so they're not too far away. And the
the ground of Burton d Asset is built on an iron ore sort of iron
ore rock foundation, and so much to it was used for mining in the
in sort of Dark Ages and the forgetting mine out. So when you go
to the park there is lots of scoops out of the ground which are open
casts, small open cast mines which probably date from the Dark Ages and so
up until nineteen nineteen. So during the First World War there was a railway
line that went up to the top of the hills because it was used for
mining. And the iron ore has been taken out for the First World War.
So the geology of the of the area is important and again this this
may be out at left field, but I did feel it was important to
include it in the book. Is because you've you've got these three main hills
that are on the west side of the park and they very much match up
with Orion's belt, so they have that two parallel and one slightly off formation.
And you know, I've done it myself. You go up there in
February and Ryan Orion as a constellation and it looks like Oryan is stood on
the hills and Orion's belt correlates to the hills below it sort of thing which
which again I find fascinating. And it was one of those things with all
of Burndas. If it was just one thing on its own, then you
would probably discount it. But it has all these factors, these sights,
the church, the military base, the links to Oriyon, the witchcraft and
all these sort of things all in the sort of same area. So yeah,
So just going back to your point, Craig, it is and it
is one of the reasons that it could be these type of earth lights.
But the witness reports, the witness reports that we have gathered do say that
the lights have do seem to have a purpose they you know, interact with
people, they're scanning the area, they're moving in purposely as if searching for
something. So I don't think they are the earthlights, but I can completely
understand why people would think that. And I suppose with all these things,
you know that the book is there, the information is there, people will
make their own their own minds as to what it was. Yeah, no,
it's it is interesting. There's there's obviously a lot of different factors,
isn't there. It's one of those areas that there seem to be a lot
of a lot of different different factors that all sort of come together that you
can you can sort of see why it will be an area of uh,
you know, high instances of of of these strange, strange types of phenomena.
Yeah, I mean again, you know, so I mentioned within the
book we do all these areas. Pendle is what rendalsomp Forest is another.
And you and you you just in the UK that is you know, and
you tend to find that these areas have a depth of high strangers back going
back a long time, and that has something to do with it. And
you know, a lot of people that know the subject far better than me
would say that they are all connected. Even as far as you know,
dog men and were wolves and various different sightings all seem to be connected around
these areas. But you know, I mean, I have primarily concentrated on
the ufology angle. I do drift a bit into into witchcraft, but generally
it's that's what I'm looking at. But I have no doubt there is many
there's many strange things that happen in I mean Burtondasset Country Park. It's it's
quite small, you know, it's maybe a mile and a half by a
mile and a half. It's not a big area, and you can walk
around it in a in an afternoon or a morning, so it's quite quite
but it has all these sort of areas within it. Quite concentrated. Then,
yeah, it's it's very concentrated. You drive, you drive up to
it. It's a very steep drive up to it, and then you're on
the sort of plateau with the five hills there. There's a wood at the
back of it. The church is down a sort of a side lane and
you can pass between north End and fenny Compton, the two villages, and
a lot of people have said to me they've bought book and then gone to
the area and use the book as a bit of a guide book, which
I think is a is a great thing to do. Absolutely. So you
mentioned witchcraft, which is a subject that I'm quite interested in, obviously because
of because of where I live. I mean, is there a history of
witchcraft in the area. Do you think do you think that might have anything
to do with with historical sightings? Well, I'm not sure about the sightings,
but there was witchcraft connected with the area, definitely. So this what's
bout my interest on the witchcraft is one of the updates and a number of
new updates and your own personal experiences in the area in the new book.
And we were I was taking I do tours sometimes so people can can contact
me on my email and and I'll take them and take them for a walk
around the area and show them the area and explain the story. And a
couple of fellow authors actually came up to to see me, and we had
to walk around the area. And we walked into foxcover wood, which is
which is a small wood of the on the eastern side the back of the
hills really and there is a there is a clear ring which is about halfway
around a path which takes you around the wood which I have done a bit
of wild camping there before, and it is it is a perfect area for
that sort of thing. But it was always clear, clear before and it
was unspoilt. But this time when we walked in there, this would have
been about May two thousand and twenty two, when we walked in, as
you approached, the area of a pentagram had been sprayed. It looked like
with white spray onto a tree as you approached it in a circle, and
on one side of the tree, on the floor there was a dotted line
and the other one there was a solid line, solid line, so it
was clearly an entrance into an area. So you walk through the dotted line
and there's a sort of loosely marked out path and it took you into this
sort of natural cathedral, natural arena really where there was a tree in the
center. Again it had the pentagon symbol spread on and then another symbol which
was a bit like an hour glass type symbol and triangles, and then on
the trees there were strange symbols or letters and numbers or letters and numbers all
in a circle, and it was immaculate. It had been cleared out,
there's no rubbish there or anything. And then every so often there was these
little constructions of branches where I would say two people could sit in, with
evidence that the fires had been lit there. So I walked around and took
photos of it all, and I put some photos into the book, and
it really sort of piqued me interest as to well the fact it was happening
modern day and and what it all meant. So I carried out a bit
of research. I thought, who's going to know about this? Well,
a witch will know about it, possibly if it's a wickan or pagan it.
I was happy that it wasn't Satanic because of the little I knew the
way the pentagons were. They had to start at the top rather than the
two stars either side, which is supposed to look like a goat and symbolize
the devil. So I was happy it was a It was a pentagon and
a and a wicker or pagan area rather than a Satanic area. So I
thought, well, I'll need to speak to somebody that does witchcraft. So
I managed to find a lady in Glastonbury and she told me what it what
it was and what all the symbols meant and what her theory was around it,
and she I think the thing she was she was in one way pleased
to see it, and she give an explanation which a detailed the book of
what it might be all about. But what she was a bit dismayed at
was the fact that what should have been used to mark out these areas was
ash rather than spray paint. So that give her a clue as to who
she thought had done it. But it was really interesting. And then and
then from there I looked back in look back in the area, and there
had been a couple of Satanic murders, and the reason why they were classed
as Satanic murders because there was there was a there was a murder just after
the war were a normal perhaps well to do you know mild mannered man had
had gone a bit a rye and killed a random woman in the street with
a pitchfork. Yeah, so the pitch the pitch for death by pitchfork is
trasitionally a way that you would you could kill a witch. Okay, I've
never heard that one. Yeah, this is this is where I had come
across as well. And then that was just before the war. And then
round about I think it was nineteen or three or something like that, a
police constable in the Kate was supposed betawling the Lion pub in fenny Compton.
Disappeared from his beat but was found in the Oxford Canal a couple of days
later, and he'd been killed with a pitchfork and they had never found anybody
for that murder. So yeah, so that there is, and again I'd
go into more details within the book, but there is these these two satanic
murders that were in that area, so dating back to the turn of the
twentieth century again but no doubt, no going back a lot further. And
when you look at the map, what's what's remarkable to me is the area
where this pagan wicker Sight is is exactly the mirror image where all Saints churches
just the other side of the park. So it's almost as if it's been
chosen out because it, you know, it's the opposite of the Christian Church.
Yeah, that's interesting. I mean you mentioned the last time we spoke
about the Christian Church, when just just recently there's there's that's that's quite an
interesting building in itself, isn't that. Yeah, yeah, so All Saints
Church is sometimes called the Cathedral. The Cotswolves started off as a Saxon nave,
but and then in the eighth ninth century was recorded in the Doomsday Book
following the Norman conquest, which I think Doomsday Book was ten eighty seven as
a Saxon nave. But around about the fourteenth century it receives a big uplift
in cash, probably Templar cash, and the Knights Temple were based that there
was a They had a base at hem Temple Hedwig, which is directly opposite
and more or less underneath now the military base of Mr d Kiton, But
it did have a big uplifting money the church and within the church it also
had the paintings which are initially as you walk into the church there is paintings
of the Virgin Murray and Saint Michael above the eastern sort of side of the
church and they're fantastic and writing more than life size. And then on the
left hand side of the wall there is pictures of as described as a gargole
or an angel type character doesn't look like either, to be honest, but
there a strange there's a strange character but drawn on the wall. And then
there's two kings, and there's different there's different stories around that, but one
king is holding is holding a head, and that's believed to be the official
literature. If you like, would they would say that these paintings are fourteenth
century paintings of ninth century kings, and that and that king who's holding his
old head is is King Ethelbert, who was beheaded in Winchester not too far
away. And then another another king, which the church would say is a
mage eye, so one of the three wise men, because he is he
is holding a bottle in his left hand up into the air. Now that
bottle to me looks like a child's top. It's got underlating lines on it,
perhaps to give the appearance that it is spinning. But the the real
eureka moment for me was when I when I first saw that painting of the
king with this with this orb or bottle on his hand. Is that the
the bottle is not resting on his hand. It's floating about two or three
cent to me two or three inches sorry, above his hand. It's been
deliberately portrayed as floating, so it's a revolving orb floating in the air and
when you again, when you look at everything else that's going on, a
burned that's it, you know. And my view is that is maybe depicting
a u a p and unidentified flying object that was seen perhaps in the ninth
century by a local king and they wanted to claim the kudos of it,
claim control of it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, But again the pictures
are in the book and I would just ask anyone to have a look and
see what you think. I mean, there has been some erosion, either
deliberately, because I'll be honest, the church hasn't been either in twenty nineteen
or when I updated the book, they haven't been that forthcoming, which is
a bit of a shame really. So it's either they have this erosion between
the hand and the bottle of the bottom of the object. But you can
clearly see that the hand is, you know, two three inches below is
floating orb So yeah, the church is interesting in itself, but I wonder
if these paintings are telling is another story. And as well as that,
we have unusual carvings on one side of the church and north side of the
church which does face Burton d Asse. It is traditionally the evil side of
a church, so gargoyles, etcetera be put on that side, so there's
none on the other side. But on the north side of the church there's
these fantastic carvings which depict the Green Man, which is often associated with two
worlds, generally Christianity and Paganism joining together, but strange ani alls half lizard,
half men type of animals, half dragon, half men animals, and
two creatures which you're upside down, so where you've normally got the the their
feet are on the bottom. Two creatures are actually upside down, as if
perhaps floating up in the air, you know. So the the carvings and
the paintings I think are key to the mystery of Burton ass it really yeah,
I mean, the the the imagery that sort of you know, coming
into into my mind as you're explaining them. I think it's quite interesting,
especially the holding, the floating the floating oil bar or whatever it was.
I think it's really interesting. And then you have to wonder, you know,
where they were getting the ideas for these sort of quite fantastical creatures from
as well. I mean, you know I did see these these things.
Yeah, I mean, we you know, we we don't know. I
mean the carvings of fourteenth century as well, and the other churches, because
they all have carvings without without a doubt, but I think that the ones
here are just a strange collection. There's a lot of strange carvings as opposed
to your traditional angel heads and people's heads, et cetera. You know,
there is these strange animals. I mean, the the the green Man depicted
isn't that common in Christian churches either, isn't it really? It's generally a
pagan thing, but it was often like a lot of things that the Christianity
did was trying to supersede paganism, pagan festivals, et cetera, with Christian
dogma. So the pagan was say that the green Man was often news as
the joining together of paganism and Christianity. But it's still quite rare. And
then you you've got these, I mean as if you look down, I
think there was seven or eight columns. Everything has got something really unusual and
interesting about it. Yeah, I think it sounds like, you know,
the church itself is worth a visit, let alone, let alone the area.
And and also I mean I wonder from what you just said there,
whether there was some sort of you know, equally unexplainable event that perhaps happened,
happened back in the Dark Ages in the thirteenth or fourteenth century, you
know that that sort of prompted this almost like a visual record in the church
of what people may have seen, because obviously they will have automatically linked anything
strange that they saw to something you know, that that was that was maybe
you know, created by God, or you know, some sort of vision
vision of God or from God or something like that. So if if there
were strange things going on at that time in history, then that's how they'd
interpreted it, and wasn't they Yeah, I think, And the fact that
these paintings survived as well, So my understanding was and I'm certainly an expert
in medieval paintings and churches, but man stand, there's a lot of them
were whitewashed over because of when the Puritans came in and because of the Reformation
as well. But these seem to have survived. You know, they haven't
been whitewashed over. People seem to have known instinctively that they're special and then
they needed to be preserved and seen. So I do think it's just more
than decoration. I do think that those pictures are telling us a story.
But maybe about the UFOs. Other people would say that because they were probably
created and paid for by the Knights Templar. Either depicting you know, the
head of John the Baptist and the Holy Grail. I don't know, but
people have put them theories forward and again I had discuss them in the book
as to various different theories around the paintings. But for me, when you
take it into context and put it alongside the military basis and the sightings of
nineteen twenty two to twenty three, I think it's it is showing, it
is depicting, or certainly the Maji figure is depicting an object that was seen
floating flying around the area. Well, it's it's an amazing story, it
really isn't It's You've done some amazing research as well, and I think I
think it's great how it all. It all obviously comes together, It all
obviously locks together and suggests that something is going on that we've we've not quite
got that understanding for in you know, in that that relatively small area,
isn't it as well? Which is quite interesting? So Yeah, it's it's
I think it's fascinating better research. You mentioned the books on Amazon. Yeah,
it's on Amazon, Kindle and Amazon as a paperback. The paperback.
Very proud, was very keen with the paperback this time to have color photos
because I really think it shows the details of the paintings and the carving.
So we've got color photos in this time. Yeah, available on Amazon,
and yeah, I hope people enjoy it and you know, make their own
mind up. That's what I'm all about. I've put one theory for people
and more than willing to listen to people disagree with me, and you know,
contact me if there's any points you want to make. You know,
it all adds to the story. Really. Yeah, what's what's your contact
details if people want to get in contact with you? So it Yeah,
so my email is Richard Rugby Rugby is r Okay e b y at yahoo
dot com. Okay, excellent, Well it's been it's been really interesting talking
to you again. I think it's fascinating subjects. I really do. There's
there's lots of lots of things in there. I thing that are quite thought
provoking. Yeah. I just help people by the book because it's obviously been
very well researched and put together, and good luck for any any future projects
that you've you've got on the go, anything in the pipeline. Well so,
yeah, Well, firstly, Greig, thanks for having me on.
I've always enjoyed the show, and yeah, absolutely and really really enjoyed our
chat. I still have a couple of ideas to research the German flying saucer,
Nazi flying saucer, Hitler's flying saucer, whatever you want to call it.
That is that is a rabbit hole that you disappear down and is very
dark. But I do feel that you know that that we've got a separate
fact from fiction with with that, with those accounts, you know, did
did the Third Right manage to get a flying saucer with anti gravity technology flying?
And if so, how and why what happened to that technology? It's
a fantastic story, but it is a huge piece of work. But I'm
still chipping away that and then and then the other thing is my interest in
remote viewing. I'm still working away at that. And again that's to do
with the Cold War and remote viewing. How that's going forward? Is that
still in use now? So? Yeah, I have. I have a
couple of projects. They keep me busy. Well, we'll look forward to
to seeing the fruits of your labors on those two. Thanks. Thanks again
for coming on the podcast. It's been an absolute pleasure. It's it's always
great speech here. It should take care and we won't mention the C word,
but but have a great have a great time anyway. Yes, yeah,
yeah for the holiday period. That's the one. That's the one great
is tech care. Thank you. You can visit my website at www dot
Craig Bryant dot co dot uk. Parimalpendle will return and remember to keep watching
the shadows. Don't don't don'