It's Maria's MutS and Stuff. What a great idea. On iHeart Radio,
Welcome to Maria's MutS and Stuff with me is evolutionary biologist Jonathan Losses. Jonathan,
you are by far the smartest person in the room. I have to
tell you that right from the get go. Well thank you. Well you
are an evolutionary biologist I find incredible. But I know we are here to
talk about the cats meowt how cats evolve from the savannah to your sofa.
And I know you've written other books, but tell me, because it's about
cats. Was this your most fun book to write? Absolutely? There is
so much fun, cool information out there about cats, and I learned a
ton and then getting to write about it it was just fantastically enjoyable. I'm
sure like a labor of love, right because obviously your cat person so sad
to be this had to be incredible. So tell me what is something that
and you because I just feel like you you know so much, and especially
about cats. What's something that you discovered while writing this book that you never
knew before. If there's one thing, it might be more, Well,
there are many more. I learned a lot, but the one that comes
to mind. Is I think that partly relates to the title of the book.
To me, the quintessential feature of a cat is it's meow. You
know, That's what cats do, and they meow to us. Anyone who's
lived with the cat knows that the cat is meowing and is trying to tell
you something. Right. I always assumed that cats meow to each other as
a means of communication, and that they had just expanded their social network to
include us, right, But it turns out research shows that that is not
the case. That when people study colonies of unknowned cats living outside and watch
what they do, they do not meow to each other very much at all.
Really, the meow, the tendency to meow to people is something that
has evolved recently in the domestic cat as part of the domestication process. Wow.
And so I guess that could be compared to how we always talk about
you know, dogs came from wolves and humans made them change over the years
to become domesticated dogs. So is that similar with cats, since the meow
is more of a human thing, is it is? Definitely? Well,
let me qualify that. Okay, all small species of cats meowm but they
don't meow to each other, and they don't meow to people in zoos when
they're raised by people. So the domestic cat has modified its behavior to use
the meo as a way of communicating with us. And they've actually changed how
they meow. If you compare the meal of the domestic cat to that of
an African wildcat that's the ancestral species, the domestic cats meo is shorter and
higher pitched. And when people here there are asked to compare the two meos,
not being told which which is which, they always rate the domestic cat
is more pleasing that the sound of the meow interesting. And so the cats
have changed their meow to better better, to be better received by us.
And that is one part of domestication, just like the traits that dogs have
evolved, right right, And that's kind of fascinating. I mean, I'm
sure the general cat owner does not know that. And that's where your book
is coming, you know, that's why they need to read your book,
because to learn stuff like that. I mean, I think it's pretty fascinating.
So well, there's just all kinds of yes, I agree, yes,
but go ahead, you were going to say they're all kinds of well,
because they're just all kinds of things about cats that I think people will
be surprised to learn about and how and how we know these things. How
scientists there's a whole group of scientists that specialize on studying the behavior and biology
of domestic cats. And we've learned an incredible amount, right, right,
And so I mean back in the day with cats. They because I mean
we see cats, we see cats in mummies and tombs. I mean from
like a long, long, long, long time ago. So they've been
around forever and evolved from Africa. Correct, correct, Although they haven't actually
been domesticated, Cats around nearly as long as dogs have been. Cats were
certainly domesticated by thirty five hundred years ago in Egypt, and maybe a bit
earlier. But dogs, by comparison, have been domesticated at least fifteen thousand
years maybe even forty thousand years ago, So dogs were domesticated a lot earlier
than cats are that the domestic cat is a recent addition to the pantheon of
domesticated animals. Do you think is there a reason for that or it's just
it is what it is. Well domesticated, So dogs probably were domesticated while
people were still hunter gatherer living in a hunter gatherer sort of way. Cats
weren't domesticated until we settled down and started farming. And then what happened is
we uh we you know, people grew a lot of crops and stored them,
and that attracted rodents, and then the African wildcats started coming into villages
to take advantage of all these rodents. And then we saw that they were
beneficial and we treated them nicely, and then they evolved to be even friendly
or to associate with us more, and eventually they were domesticated. But it's
a result of our settling down and living in villages, right right, And
I mean, and of course you say with rodents, and that's kind of
a fact, right, if you have a cat, you're not going to
have mice in your house. I mean, they're there. They are very
good hunters. There's a consummate predators. So, yes, you have a
cat, and the chances that you will have mice as much less, right,
That's yeah though, that's for true, that for sure. Actually,
So I'm assuming like over the over the years, all the breeds that we
have what we currently have, we did not have all the breeds of cats,
I mean, to me, there are so many, and I feel
like that's evolved as well over the years. Correct, Absolutely, most cat
breeds have been developed in the last fifty to sixty years. There are a
few, so the idea of having breeds of cats at all only goes back
to the late nine late eighteen hundreds, but most most breeds were developed within
the last seventy five fifty years or so. Wow. Wow, And how
many I mean, I don't know how many would you say approximately breeds are
today? Well, there are different cat organizations that recognize different numbers of breeds,
but the most, the most permissive organization I think, recognizes about seventy
three breeds of cats. Okay, all right, Well that's fair and yeah,
I mean, and that's a lot. That's a that's a pretty hefty
number at this point, right, yea. And many of them are just
you know, slightly different hair texture or color. But some of them are
quite out there. There's a short legged cat called the Munchkin, and there's
the hairless cat called the Stinks that people may be familiar with with. It
was in the Austin Power movies and so on. And there are a few
other really kind of odd cats that have been domesticated recently. Odd breathe right
right, And can I ask you how many cats you currently have? I'm
just curious. We have. We have four cats. One of them is
at my foot right now w meowing at me. But we have four cats
and they keep us very busy. Was there anything in your book that or
was there anything about your cats that you didn't realize until you started to do
all the research. I mean, I know we spoke about the meow,
but until you started to do research for your book. Yeah, well,
there are a lot of things. Yeah, my cats do do feature in
the They have a starring role. Probably the most unexpected thing to me was
that one of my more recent cats, named Nelson, we got him a
few years ago, and we got him we bought a lot of toys to
play with him, and after a few months he was still a kitten,
he started bringing the toys to me. He would walk across the room with
the toy in his mouth. He would drop it at my feet and then
look up at me, I mean clearly saying playtime. And then if I
threw the toy across the room, he would madly dash and get it and
bring it back. He was fetching the toy and I hadn't trained him to
do that, he just did it naturally. Well, I thought that was
extraordinary. I'd never heard of such a thing. I thought that he was
the greatest cat in the world. He is actually the greatest cat in the
world. For other reason. And you know, if I had all these
ideas of taking him on the Tonight Show or America's Got Talent or something,
well, before doing that, maybe I should just do a little investigation.
And it turns out that people have ducted surveys of people who live with cats,
and these are not unusual traits. Then about twenty percent of cat owners
say that their cats will bring them toys to play with and we'll fetch and
so cats, some cats do that. But I had no clue of that
until my own cat and Nelson started doing it. Wow. And that's and
it's just a random thing. I mean, it just so happens, right,
It's not it's not anything someone can say, Oh, I'm going to
adopt this cat and then they bring it home and oh, look the cat
is getting its toys. It's just it might happen. It might not right.
It's just a rant like it's like a personality trait. I guess,
yes, well that's exactly it. It's you know why they do that.
I mean, presumably it's a trait that evolved as part of domestication for some
reason. There are some breeds that tend to do it more than others,
so it's related to breed a little bit. But it's not like all Siamese
will do that or no Persian cats. It's you know, some in some
breeds, some cats will do it and others won't. Yeah, yeah,
I mean and for people who are I would say, for dog people,
they would say, oh, that's a cat, that's like a dog.
You know what. People say that sometimes. Yeah, In fact, we
consider Nelson to be a dog and cat's clothing. Yes, you look at
him and he purrs, and you come in the door, he comes running
up to you. He's really very dog. Why he is dogging? Yeah,
I have to say that. I'm a cat person. I've never really
understood dogs until now. Now I get it why people like dogs because they
act like Nelson does. That's really funny. So see you look at that.
So your book not only is has benefited cat people, but it's benefiting
dog people as well, to teach them about cats and cats that are like
dogs. Yes, yes, exactly, No, it's perfect. Well,
I just think it's it's first of all, I love the cover. Is
the cover one of your cats, by the way, No, it's the
publisher's got that cat. Okay. I argued for my cats, but they
said they could, they would, they would get another one. There was
actually there was never a doubt that there would be a kitten on the cover,
but that they came up with that all right, But it's actually it's
a very adorable kitten. I was going to say, if that was you
one of yours, adorable. But I feel like the whole book is besides
very informative, it's also it's done in a fun way. I mean,
obviously that was your intent to get the facts out, but in a fun
kind of way. Well, I'm certainly glad that you felt that way,
because that was my goal. You know, as a scientist, this is
not rocket science. I knew I could explain it, but I wanted people
to want to read it, to find it interesting and enjoyable. And certainly
the material is there, there's such great stuff to write about it, and
my goal was to do justice to that material by making it fun to read.
So I'm delighted you thought it was. Oh no, absolutely absolutely,
And I have to be honest, I like cats, but I'm more of
a dog person. But your book actually taught me more, taught me stuff
about cats that I didn't know. So when when it's it's for the cat
lover, but it's also for anyone. I think it's for anyone who actually
loves animals because it's very like I said, you're the smartest person in the
room, but you actually make it very entertating for us. So that's very
important. That's very good that you did. Well. No, but it's
true. But it's very very true because sometimes there are books, and especially
because like I said, you know, you're an evolutionary biologists. You're very
smart. You're smarter than many people who roam the earth. But you could
read a paper or a book. And for the person who isn't of the
same you know, doesn't have the same brain that you have, it's hard
to read or understand, but you made it. You made it very fun
and informative, and I really I did enjoy your book. So I just
know it's good. So let me just ask you this, because this was
fun for you to write, do you think you would do it again?
Like another with all the research that you did that maybe didn't make it to
the book. Well, there is a lot of other stuff to talk about.
And I have enjoyed writing this book. I mean, I've I've spent
my career being a scientist, and I enjoy doing the research and writing scientific
papers. But this is my second book I've written for the general public,
and I really enjoy doing so that trying to make the information accessible and interesting.
And as you said, there's a lot of other material that didn't go
into this book. There were topics that I wanted to talk about and it
was just too much, right, So I could see writing another book that
that might be fun to do. Okay, good, and then maybe we'll
you will put one of your cats on the front, tell the boots that
we want that excellent. I will say. There's only one photo in the
book, is the last illustration, and it is one of my cats.
Yes, that's true, that's true. And which one is that? By
the way, that is Nelson's one such toys very cute. Actually, one
of the things I was very proud of when they sent me the draft of
the book, the Galley proofs that laid it all out, and you know,
I read it for typos and everything. I looked at the index which
they put together, and they hadn't mentioned Nelson or my other cats in the
index. So I made them put all my entries to my cats in the
index. So if we want to read the book and just read about my
cats, it's easy to do. See that, and that's on page three
seventy seven. But the listeners will really read your whole book before they go
to the index. I think, well, I couldn't argue with you.
Okay, it's the cats, me out how cats evolved from the Savanity your
sofa, Jonathan Lasses, thank you so much for chatting about it. Where
can my listeners get the book? Well, it's any bookstore, Amazon or
independent bookstores. It should be on sale everywhere. Excellent. Well, I
thank you so much for talking about the book. I thank you so much
for writing the book and teaching me and my listeners more stuff than we would
know. And keep doing what you're doing. And I hope to talk to
you again, because you never know. Part two, Well, that would
be great. This has really been fun, Maria. I really appreciate you
invited me on your show. La has never been a Greader operator and this
time to see you later for the Gator