1 00:00:01,120 --> 00:00:07,280 You're listening to the Mind over Murder podcast. My name is Bill Thomas. 2 00:00:07,799 --> 00:00:12,080 I'm a writer, consulting, producer, and now podcaster. I am now 3 00:00:12,119 --> 00:00:16,039 trying to use my experience as the brother of a murder victim to help other 4 00:00:16,120 --> 00:00:20,280 victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book on the unsolved Colonial Parkway 5 00:00:20,359 --> 00:00:24,760 murders and I'm the co administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together with 6 00:00:24,839 --> 00:00:29,120 Kristin Dilly. My name is Kristin Dilly. I'm a writer, a researcher, 7 00:00:29,320 --> 00:00:32,840 a teacher, and a victim's advocate, as well as the social media 8 00:00:32,920 --> 00:00:37,880 manager and co administrator for the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook page with my partner in 9 00:00:37,920 --> 00:00:50,600 crime, Bill Thomas. Welcome to Mind Ever Murderer. I'm Kristin Dilly and 10 00:00:50,640 --> 00:00:55,159 I'm Bill Thomas, and we're joined today by Lindsay Wade, author of In 11 00:00:55,200 --> 00:01:00,840 My DNA, My Career Investigating Your Worst Nightmares. Lindsey, thank you for 12 00:01:00,920 --> 00:01:03,640 joining us in Mind Never Murdered today. Thank you so much for having me 13 00:01:04,640 --> 00:01:08,239 go ahead and start by telling us a little bit about yourself and your professional 14 00:01:08,239 --> 00:01:15,439 background. So I am a native of Tacoma, Washington and still lives in 15 00:01:15,480 --> 00:01:19,799 this neck of the woods. I am a retired law enforcement officer. So 16 00:01:19,879 --> 00:01:23,920 I worked for the Tacoma, Washington Police Department for twenty one years and spent 17 00:01:25,079 --> 00:01:30,359 fourteen of those years as a detective, working primarily sex crimes and homicide cases, 18 00:01:32,000 --> 00:01:36,079 some missing person cases in there, and few other kinds of violent crimes, 19 00:01:36,159 --> 00:01:41,280 and then spent the last three years as our cold case detective. Then 20 00:01:41,319 --> 00:01:45,799 after I left the department, I went and worked for the Attorney General's Office 21 00:01:45,959 --> 00:01:52,879 in Washington State, and I helped to create the SACKI program in Washington State, 22 00:01:53,000 --> 00:01:57,079 which is the Sexual Assault Kits Initiative. Worked on that project and we 23 00:01:57,159 --> 00:01:59,799 had a couple of different purpose areas for that grant. At the time. 24 00:02:00,000 --> 00:02:04,319 We had one purpose area that addresses the testing of sexual assault kits, and 25 00:02:04,359 --> 00:02:07,680 then we had another purpose area that addressed something called lafuly O DNA, which 26 00:02:07,879 --> 00:02:14,879 is a program aimed to collect DNA sample from convicted offenders who slipped through the 27 00:02:14,919 --> 00:02:19,240 cracks and never had their DNA entered into CODIS. That's my background in a 28 00:02:19,280 --> 00:02:22,680 nutshell. Now I no longer work for the AG's Office. I now work 29 00:02:22,759 --> 00:02:29,800 for a global nonprofit. I still have my fingers involved in this world of 30 00:02:29,919 --> 00:02:34,479 investigation. In my current role, because I act as a liaison to law 31 00:02:34,560 --> 00:02:38,360 enforcement agencies around the country. I'd like to put a pin in this whole 32 00:02:38,599 --> 00:02:45,439 discussion about lawfully oed DNA because this is an area that we both find very 33 00:02:45,719 --> 00:02:50,159 troubling and something that we believe that all of us as a nation should be 34 00:02:50,240 --> 00:02:53,759 focused on. Let's put a pin in that for a moment, because there's 35 00:02:53,759 --> 00:02:57,719 so much more to talk about. Just in terms of introducing you and your 36 00:02:57,879 --> 00:03:00,680 fascinating history. I want to start with the title of the book because it's 37 00:03:00,719 --> 00:03:04,080 great. So the title of the book, as I said at the top, 38 00:03:04,159 --> 00:03:07,680 is in my DNA. If someone asked you the question, Lindsey, 39 00:03:07,719 --> 00:03:15,879 what is in your DNA? What would your answer be? Murder? I 40 00:03:15,919 --> 00:03:23,199 think that's an orgy. Yeah, such a lovely, upbeat thing. Just 41 00:03:23,280 --> 00:03:27,080 and just to give you guys some perspective. So I was at a retreat 42 00:03:27,159 --> 00:03:30,719 this last weekend with a credit union that I stood on the board of directors 43 00:03:30,719 --> 00:03:34,560 for, and the CEO of the credit union was asking me after our meeting 44 00:03:34,599 --> 00:03:37,159 was over, what did you do today? Did you go out and go 45 00:03:37,240 --> 00:03:39,039 shopping or do something fun? And I was like, yeah, I went 46 00:03:39,080 --> 00:03:42,759 to the shops and then I came back to my room and started researching the 47 00:03:42,800 --> 00:03:45,560 serial killer. And he just looked at me and he was like, Okay, 48 00:03:45,919 --> 00:03:51,960 I like why why not? That spends like conversations I have with my 49 00:03:52,039 --> 00:03:53,520 friends. What are you doing? Oh I'm I told somebody I said, 50 00:03:53,520 --> 00:03:57,039 I got to go home a podcast about child murder and they were like, 51 00:03:57,280 --> 00:04:01,199 yeah, did they not understand your professional background? Do they think of you 52 00:04:01,280 --> 00:04:05,039 as being on the board of directors and not? Oh? No, he 53 00:04:05,120 --> 00:04:09,400 knows. He knows what my background is. But I don't know. Maybe 54 00:04:09,439 --> 00:04:12,439 they just think it's much more compartmentalized, like you only do that when you're 55 00:04:12,439 --> 00:04:16,040 at work or something, and that's definitely not me. Would you think of 56 00:04:16,639 --> 00:04:23,160 solving murder as being one aspect of your life's work. Oh for sure. 57 00:04:23,240 --> 00:04:27,959 Yeah, absolutely so, like Christmas a big aspect. It's not something you 58 00:04:28,040 --> 00:04:31,879 just put down. This is a passion for you. Absolutely. It's more 59 00:04:31,879 --> 00:04:34,600 of a calling than I would say a job. And that's one of the 60 00:04:34,600 --> 00:04:39,800 things I talked about in at the book conclusion, is that I may not 61 00:04:39,879 --> 00:04:42,600 be a detective anymore. I may not be getting called out to crime scenes 62 00:04:42,639 --> 00:04:46,000 anymore. It doesn't really matter because I'm always going to be interested and I'm 63 00:04:46,040 --> 00:04:49,120 always going to be asking questions and probably sticking my nose where it doesn't belong. 64 00:04:49,240 --> 00:04:55,000 But that's okay, because that's how you get shit done. I agreed. 65 00:04:55,439 --> 00:04:58,120 So murder is in your DNA? Is there anything else that you would 66 00:04:58,160 --> 00:05:01,839 say is like deeply angry you as part of your DNA? Just a sense 67 00:05:01,920 --> 00:05:08,519 of justice? And I just really caring for and caring about victims of violent 68 00:05:08,560 --> 00:05:13,199 crime, and I just think that too often they get forgotten and it's all. 69 00:05:13,439 --> 00:05:16,360 We talk a lot about other things related to the criminal justice system, 70 00:05:16,399 --> 00:05:21,120 but I feel like the families and the victims oftentimes get lost and forgotten about. 71 00:05:21,199 --> 00:05:25,600 And for me, that's the most motivating part of doing this kind of 72 00:05:25,600 --> 00:05:29,959 work is when I do connect with the family and the cases that I talk 73 00:05:30,000 --> 00:05:33,079 about in the book, a lot of those cases were extremely impactful to me 74 00:05:33,199 --> 00:05:38,240 because I had a connection with the victim or the family or it's not just 75 00:05:38,279 --> 00:05:41,639 like flapping the handcuffs on somebody. That's good. It feels good to be 76 00:05:41,639 --> 00:05:45,199 able to do that, but it feels even better to be able to give 77 00:05:45,240 --> 00:05:47,519 a family that news that you've solved the case, or to be able to 78 00:05:47,560 --> 00:05:50,439 connect with the victim and let them know that they weren't forgotten about and that 79 00:05:50,480 --> 00:05:55,560 you were able to do something to help them. So what made you decide 80 00:05:55,600 --> 00:06:00,920 that now was the right time to tell your story about your life as a 81 00:06:00,959 --> 00:06:05,800 detective. I think that I knew along the way in my career that I 82 00:06:05,959 --> 00:06:11,759 had worked on some very interesting cases and I could probably write them down and 83 00:06:11,839 --> 00:06:15,480 write a book one day, but I never really thought that I could do 84 00:06:15,480 --> 00:06:18,319 it while I was still working as a detective. For one thing, I 85 00:06:18,439 --> 00:06:21,959 just got like one would the story actually end, because the cases just keep 86 00:06:23,000 --> 00:06:25,759 on coming, So that was one aspect of it. Plus I just didn't 87 00:06:25,759 --> 00:06:28,639 feel like I was in the right frame of mind or had the time. 88 00:06:29,519 --> 00:06:32,040 So once I retired from police work, I felt that I did have the 89 00:06:32,079 --> 00:06:38,720 time and the energy and the willingness to go back through those cases and revisit 90 00:06:38,759 --> 00:06:42,160 them. And I sat down one day and mid a list, and I 91 00:06:42,199 --> 00:06:46,800 wrote down the cases that I wanted to include in the book, and they 92 00:06:46,839 --> 00:06:49,920 were all cases that I felt were impactful to me for one reason or another, 93 00:06:50,560 --> 00:06:54,000 and I decided those were the cases that I was going to write about. 94 00:06:54,439 --> 00:06:57,959 And it turned out that all of them ended up being cases involving either 95 00:06:58,279 --> 00:07:01,560 women or young girls who had been to my Let's start off then with the 96 00:07:01,639 --> 00:07:06,279 Jennifer Bastian case. For someone that is not familiar with their case, and 97 00:07:06,360 --> 00:07:11,199 it certainly was high profile, but not everyone will know the story. Can 98 00:07:11,240 --> 00:07:15,040 you tell us a little bit about that case? So there were actually two 99 00:07:15,040 --> 00:07:20,560 little girls who went missing and were murdered in Tacoma back in nineteen eighty six, 100 00:07:20,720 --> 00:07:25,759 and this was during my childhood, so I was I think ten when 101 00:07:26,040 --> 00:07:30,040 a little girl by the name of Michelle Welch was killed, and then I 102 00:07:30,120 --> 00:07:34,040 had turned eleven by the time Jennifer Bastian was killed. These were two cases 103 00:07:34,120 --> 00:07:41,879 that were just completely outrageous. They shocked the community. They were cases that 104 00:07:42,160 --> 00:07:45,920 everyone knew about, and still to this day, if you talk to anybody 105 00:07:45,920 --> 00:07:49,160 who's lived here for more than twenty years, they know these cases. It 106 00:07:49,240 --> 00:07:54,800 was just terrifying to think that two little kids, two different events, two 107 00:07:54,839 --> 00:07:58,120 different days, could just be out doing what kids do, which is going 108 00:07:58,199 --> 00:08:03,439 to the park riding a bike, and they go missing. And with Michelle, 109 00:08:03,519 --> 00:08:07,040 she had been at a local community park with her sisters. She went 110 00:08:07,079 --> 00:08:11,240 home to go get lunch for her sisters, and when she came back to 111 00:08:11,279 --> 00:08:13,319 the park, they were not there. It turns out they had gone to 112 00:08:13,360 --> 00:08:18,000 a nearby business to use the restroom, and when they came back from the 113 00:08:18,040 --> 00:08:20,360 restroom, they saw that she was had been back. Her bike was there, 114 00:08:20,480 --> 00:08:24,040 and the lunch that she brought from the house was there, but she 115 00:08:24,120 --> 00:08:28,399 was nowhere to be found. They searched for her, couldn't find her, 116 00:08:28,600 --> 00:08:33,000 and they ended up calling a babysitter, and then ultimately their mom and the 117 00:08:33,000 --> 00:08:37,960 police were called and they initiated a massive search of the area and they ended 118 00:08:37,000 --> 00:08:41,120 up bringing in search and rescue. This was middle of the day on I 119 00:08:41,120 --> 00:08:45,840 believe it was a Wednesday. Later that night, close to midnight, they 120 00:08:45,879 --> 00:08:50,519 finally found her body and she had been taken into a wooded area adjacent to 121 00:08:50,559 --> 00:08:58,080 the park and had been sexually assaulted and murdered. So that happened in March 122 00:08:58,360 --> 00:09:01,840 of nineteen eighty six. It was a big story and the people were in 123 00:09:01,879 --> 00:09:05,720 fear. This is a very well to do area of Tacoma. It was 124 00:09:05,799 --> 00:09:11,120 not a high crime area and this was just unexpected, this random act of 125 00:09:11,200 --> 00:09:16,840 violence that just not normal. So police were investigating that case and really not 126 00:09:16,919 --> 00:09:20,960 coming up with a ton of good leads. And then fast forward four and 127 00:09:20,000 --> 00:09:24,399 a half months and it happens again, same area of town, same type 128 00:09:24,399 --> 00:09:28,120 of victim, and in this case it was Jennifer Bastian, who was thirteen, 129 00:09:28,879 --> 00:09:33,639 also blonde haired, blue eyed, out riding a bike in another park 130 00:09:33,919 --> 00:09:37,759 in the same area of town. She had left a note for her dad 131 00:09:37,799 --> 00:09:41,159 saying she'd be home by six pm. She was going to ride around this 132 00:09:41,960 --> 00:09:46,279 paved path in the park called the five Mile Drive. She left for the 133 00:09:46,320 --> 00:09:48,960 park. There were lots of people that said they saw her at the park, 134 00:09:50,080 --> 00:09:52,879 riding her bike in various areas along the path, and she never came 135 00:09:52,879 --> 00:09:58,279 home. Her parents searched for her, and then police were called. Police 136 00:09:58,440 --> 00:10:03,840 flew into ad pretty quickly on this case because of the other case. Based 137 00:10:03,879 --> 00:10:07,399 on the similarities. It was like, Okay, this does not sound good 138 00:10:07,399 --> 00:10:11,960 and it sounds nearly similar to the Michello Welch case, so they also brought 139 00:10:11,960 --> 00:10:16,159 in search and rescue pretty quick. They tracked from the Bastion home to the 140 00:10:16,200 --> 00:10:18,799 park. The dogs picked up her scent in the park, but they did 141 00:10:18,799 --> 00:10:26,600 not locate her. She was ultimately missing for twenty four days before her body 142 00:10:26,720 --> 00:10:31,039 was finally located within the park in a wooded area. She too had been 143 00:10:31,080 --> 00:10:35,759 sexually assaulted and murdered, and those two cases just went unsolved. So from 144 00:10:35,799 --> 00:10:41,799 nineteen eighty six until twenty eighteen, they were just unsolved cases. Really, 145 00:10:41,840 --> 00:10:46,360 they became urban legends in this area because they were just so horrific and it 146 00:10:46,399 --> 00:10:52,000 was hard to believe that these two crimes could occur and the person could still 147 00:10:52,000 --> 00:10:56,200 be out there walking around and not committing other crimes just like it. It 148 00:10:56,279 --> 00:11:00,879 was definitely thought that it was the same suspect who killed both girls based on 149 00:11:00,960 --> 00:11:05,799 these similarities, and we later learned based on DNA testing, that wasn't the 150 00:11:05,840 --> 00:11:09,639 case. It was two separate guys, which was shocking, Like, twenty 151 00:11:09,679 --> 00:11:13,240 eight years after the fact, we find out its two different guys, So 152 00:11:13,320 --> 00:11:16,480 we don't know who they are because the DNA comes back and it's still no 153 00:11:16,600 --> 00:11:20,799 matches and codis for either suspect. Would you say that the rape and murder 154 00:11:20,840 --> 00:11:26,480 of these two little girls did that enter into your decision. You're a little 155 00:11:26,559 --> 00:11:31,159 kid at this point, just a young girl yourself, and yet years later 156 00:11:31,279 --> 00:11:35,559 you decide you want to go into law enforcement. Is there a relationship between 157 00:11:35,600 --> 00:11:39,519 what happened to me, you know, to them, and your own life. 158 00:11:39,200 --> 00:11:43,320 Yeah, I don't see how it couldn't have had some impact on my 159 00:11:43,360 --> 00:11:48,840 decision making, whether it was a conscious decision or subconscious. But there were 160 00:11:48,840 --> 00:11:52,679 a few things that happened along the way of my childhood that definitely led me 161 00:11:52,759 --> 00:11:56,679 down the path and got me interested in law enforcement and interested in wanting to 162 00:11:56,679 --> 00:12:01,919 be a detective, and specifically a homicide active. The book starts out with 163 00:12:01,960 --> 00:12:05,039 me talking about waking up when I was eight years old and finding a stranger 164 00:12:05,399 --> 00:12:09,679 inside my bedroom, which was absolutely terrifying. And then you fast forward a 165 00:12:09,720 --> 00:12:11,759 couple of years and I talked about the murders of these two girls in my 166 00:12:11,799 --> 00:12:16,679 community. And when I talked to my friends, I can talk to friends, 167 00:12:16,720 --> 00:12:18,360 neighbors, I could go to a local bar and bring up the cases 168 00:12:18,360 --> 00:12:24,879 and somebody would start talking about it. Everybody was impacted in some way by 169 00:12:24,879 --> 00:12:28,759 these two cases. And it's hard to really describe, but it really changed 170 00:12:28,919 --> 00:12:33,240 how kids were raised in our area. There was no more free range parenting. 171 00:12:33,559 --> 00:12:37,360 You weren't going to walk by yourself anywhere, you weren't going to ride 172 00:12:37,360 --> 00:12:41,960 your bike anywhere. Parents really kept a close eye on their kids closer than 173 00:12:41,960 --> 00:12:46,080 they had before this happened, and there was a lot of speculation about who 174 00:12:46,159 --> 00:12:50,600 could have done it. There was a lot of paranoia, I would say, 175 00:12:50,679 --> 00:12:54,240 about who had done it, especially since they just went unsolved. So 176 00:12:54,320 --> 00:12:58,840 it really had a big impact, and I think for young girl like myself, 177 00:12:58,919 --> 00:13:01,080 it just scared the hell out of us. It really told us for 178 00:13:01,120 --> 00:13:05,840 the first time ever that there's really bad people out there, and up until 179 00:13:05,840 --> 00:13:09,720 that time that just didn't even factor into anything, didn't fact into factor into 180 00:13:09,799 --> 00:13:15,120 how we lived our lives. So fast forward from there to high school. 181 00:13:15,440 --> 00:13:18,879 That's when I picked up a copy of Ann ruled book The Stranger Beside Me 182 00:13:20,600 --> 00:13:24,639 and started reading about Ted Bundy, who was also from Tacoma. By the 183 00:13:24,639 --> 00:13:28,440 way, once I read that book, I was just hooked. That was 184 00:13:28,519 --> 00:13:33,039 it. I knew I wanted to be a detective. It's funny, lindsay, 185 00:13:33,039 --> 00:13:37,240 I was reading all of this and it actually sounds similar to what happened 186 00:13:37,279 --> 00:13:41,480 with me. I also was impacted very strongly by Bill's sisters case the Colonial 187 00:13:41,519 --> 00:13:46,559 Parkway murders, because that also took on the stature of urban legend here and 188 00:13:46,600 --> 00:13:50,440 it did impact the way that people raise their kids, warned them about the 189 00:13:50,480 --> 00:13:54,000 parkway, and then it wasn't and rule for me. But it was John 190 00:13:54,039 --> 00:14:00,320 Douglas and Mark Olshaker's mind Hunter in all of those series. But I wasn't 191 00:14:00,320 --> 00:14:01,759 brave enough to do what you did. I didn't go at a law enforcement 192 00:14:01,799 --> 00:14:05,840 I went into teaching. But that's bravery on its own. I guess I 193 00:14:05,879 --> 00:14:09,600 was gonna say, I don't think I could do that, so it might 194 00:14:09,639 --> 00:14:13,399 have up to you a different kind of bravery. But yeah, I was 195 00:14:13,480 --> 00:14:16,000 reading this and going, you know what, I get this? This is 196 00:14:16,080 --> 00:14:20,320 very resonant in a lot of ways. Just while we're on the subject of 197 00:14:20,320 --> 00:14:24,399 Ted Bundy, just for one second, why is it that the Pacific Northwest 198 00:14:24,399 --> 00:14:28,320 seems to be a hot spot for notorious serial killers? Because you've got Bundy 199 00:14:28,399 --> 00:14:33,519 and the Green River Killer, just to name two. Any insight into why 200 00:14:33,559 --> 00:14:37,200 that might be is that the weather is like what is it? If I 201 00:14:37,279 --> 00:14:41,159 knew the answer to that question, I would probably be a billionaire who knows. 202 00:14:41,279 --> 00:14:43,919 Yes, so many different things. I've heard the weather. I've heard 203 00:14:45,159 --> 00:14:50,039 the fact that we were military and Port city. I've heard that we the 204 00:14:50,159 --> 00:14:54,519 terrain. Look, you got plenty of places to bury and just dump bodies 205 00:14:54,559 --> 00:14:58,240 out in the wilderness here. It doesn't really correlate for those serial killers that 206 00:14:58,279 --> 00:15:01,799 you mentioned, but we do have a disproportionate amount of violent crime here. 207 00:15:03,639 --> 00:15:09,519 Historically, We've had, even just like in my specific area, a disproportionate 208 00:15:09,600 --> 00:15:13,399 amount of violent crime because what happens is a lot of times the prisons will 209 00:15:13,440 --> 00:15:16,200 just dump people in our county and in our city after they get out, 210 00:15:16,320 --> 00:15:20,360 for a variety of reasons, but primarily because supposedly we have more services here 211 00:15:20,480 --> 00:15:24,240 or something, or they have a better chance of rehabilitating, and so we 212 00:15:24,320 --> 00:15:28,159 end up with a large proportion of people here that are not even from here, 213 00:15:28,159 --> 00:15:31,480 but they committed crimes that sent them to prison, and then they get 214 00:15:31,559 --> 00:15:33,759 dumped here after they get released. So that's the problem. And I think 215 00:15:33,879 --> 00:15:39,879 that is less today than it was in the eighties and nineties, but it 216 00:15:39,960 --> 00:15:43,440 still happens. That must mean you've got a pretty hefty recidivism rate, then, 217 00:15:43,559 --> 00:15:46,879 is that right? Yeah, depending on the crime type. But yet 218 00:15:48,159 --> 00:15:52,159 so that's a problem that could be a factor with some of it. But 219 00:15:52,320 --> 00:15:54,639 yeah, we just I don't know. There are a lot of things going 220 00:15:54,639 --> 00:15:58,440 on up here. All I can say is I'm so glad we didn't blame 221 00:15:58,519 --> 00:16:03,000 the cost yeah, or all the great rock and roll that's come out of 222 00:16:03,000 --> 00:16:07,679 the Pacific Northwest in the last thirty years. As long as coffee and grunge 223 00:16:07,759 --> 00:16:14,799 rock are not blind, I think it will leave. Nirvana and Down Garden 224 00:16:14,960 --> 00:16:18,279 and Pearl Dan They're all safe, exactly some of my favorites. The other 225 00:16:18,440 --> 00:16:23,039 factors, I think the heavy military presence, and I come from a military 226 00:16:23,080 --> 00:16:27,639 family, so I'm not taking a shot at anybody. The transient factor, 227 00:16:29,080 --> 00:16:33,720 I think is very real because so many people come through there because of the 228 00:16:33,840 --> 00:16:40,440 type of work and the ports. I think about people that have been involved 229 00:16:40,720 --> 00:16:47,639 in shipping and receiving civilian and military craft coming and going, and even things 230 00:16:47,759 --> 00:16:52,320 like people heading to Alaska and Canada and places like that. I can't exactly 231 00:16:52,399 --> 00:16:56,720 put my finger on it, but I feel like there's a just a lot 232 00:16:56,879 --> 00:17:02,200 of movement of people, and that would allow someone who who has dark predilections 233 00:17:02,279 --> 00:17:06,440 to hide in plain sight, because there's always going to be a stranger in 234 00:17:06,480 --> 00:17:11,559 a flannel shirt walking through town. Absolutely, in Jennifer and Michelle's case is 235 00:17:12,200 --> 00:17:17,440 what kind of involvement, if any, did NECKMAC the National Center for Missing 236 00:17:17,440 --> 00:17:22,599 and exploited children have in their investigations, I don't believe. So I don't 237 00:17:22,640 --> 00:17:27,039 recall seeing anything in the case file that indicated involvement. Michelle was found the 238 00:17:27,119 --> 00:17:32,240 same day that went missing, and Jennifer was missing for almost a month, 239 00:17:32,359 --> 00:17:37,440 but I don't think so. And at what year are you finally at a 240 00:17:37,480 --> 00:17:41,680 point where you're looking at their case files, which obviously are cold cases at 241 00:17:41,680 --> 00:17:48,240 this point. So I first got involved with their cases, it was maybe 242 00:17:48,279 --> 00:17:53,000 twenty twelve, twenty twelve, twenty thirteen, somewhere in there. My partner 243 00:17:53,319 --> 00:17:56,799 at the time, detective Jean Miller, he knew that I was interested in 244 00:17:56,799 --> 00:18:02,640 cold cases, and we had received a grant from nij in twenty twelve to 245 00:18:02,960 --> 00:18:07,160 actually reinvestigate a lot of our cold cases using DNA, and so the cases 246 00:18:07,160 --> 00:18:11,240 were farmed out to detectives within the unit to look at and we all took 247 00:18:11,279 --> 00:18:15,200 a case. But he knew that I was very interested in cold cases in 248 00:18:15,240 --> 00:18:18,440 general. I had voluntarily taken on a cold case back when I was in 249 00:18:18,680 --> 00:18:22,559 sex crimes of a missing little girl, and so it was just a passion 250 00:18:22,599 --> 00:18:26,079 of mine. I don't really remember how it happened, but around twenty twelve 251 00:18:26,119 --> 00:18:32,079 twenty thirteen, I was in contact with a former FBI profiler that I had 252 00:18:32,119 --> 00:18:36,480 just remained friends with over the years who retired from the FBI and moved on 253 00:18:36,519 --> 00:18:40,759 to nickmk We talked from time to time about cases, and she thought Jennifer 254 00:18:40,839 --> 00:18:45,400 and Michelle's cases would be good cases to present at nick MEK for a full 255 00:18:45,720 --> 00:18:52,920 case review. Gene and I traveled to Alexandria and did a two day presentation. 256 00:18:53,400 --> 00:18:57,119 So we did Michelle's case with the first day and then Jennifer's the second 257 00:18:57,200 --> 00:19:00,279 day. For that panel of experts that they pulled together, which was I 258 00:19:00,279 --> 00:19:06,839 don't know, like twenty five or so experts from various fields, we walked 259 00:19:06,839 --> 00:19:11,039 through the cases. So that was really like my first in depth involvement with 260 00:19:11,400 --> 00:19:17,319 the cases and reading through them and meeting Jennifer's mom and dad at that time. 261 00:19:17,759 --> 00:19:21,720 Michelle's family was out of state by that point, but Jennifer's parents were 262 00:19:21,759 --> 00:19:25,720 still local. As I was reading through the books, some very familiar names 263 00:19:25,720 --> 00:19:30,960 were jumping off the page for me, and two of those are Colleen Fitzpatrick 264 00:19:30,000 --> 00:19:34,759 and doctor Barbara ray Venter. Can you talk a little bit about the roles 265 00:19:34,839 --> 00:19:40,680 that they played in helping you investigate Jennifer's homicide. And I think you could 266 00:19:40,720 --> 00:19:45,279 definitely say that they helped lead to that eventual closure of the case. So, 267 00:19:45,400 --> 00:19:48,359 yeah, tell us about about doctor Fitzpatrick and doctor Barbara re Vennor. 268 00:19:48,359 --> 00:19:52,200 They're amazing, aren't they. Oh yeah, I first learned about Colleen Fitzpatrick 269 00:19:52,359 --> 00:19:57,559 in it was like twenty fifteen. There were detectives who came up from Phoenix 270 00:19:57,640 --> 00:20:03,079 to Washington and they were following up on the murder cases down there, that 271 00:20:03,200 --> 00:20:07,319 the two cases from nineteen ninety and ninety one, I think they were. 272 00:20:07,519 --> 00:20:11,440 Yeah, they were telling me about how they had solved the case and they 273 00:20:11,480 --> 00:20:15,359 were doing follow up on Miller because he was from He wasn't from Washington, 274 00:20:15,440 --> 00:20:21,119 but he had been living in Washington. At some point he had attacked a 275 00:20:21,119 --> 00:20:25,720 girl on a jogging trail or something, ya. And so they were up 276 00:20:25,759 --> 00:20:29,720 in my neck of the woods. And I don't actually remember whats the nexus 277 00:20:29,880 --> 00:20:32,759 was to Tacoma, but for some reason they were in Tacoma and needed some 278 00:20:32,799 --> 00:20:36,279 help from us. We got to talking about their cases and they told me 279 00:20:36,599 --> 00:20:41,640 about how they had gotten the lead on Miller's name from Colleen Fitzpatrick. And 280 00:20:41,680 --> 00:20:47,880 I'm like, say, what really. Yeah, Okay, this sounds crazy 281 00:20:47,920 --> 00:20:51,839 to me. I'm no genealogist, I don't It just was completely foreign to 282 00:20:51,880 --> 00:20:55,680 me. I said, I'm going to need her number because I want to 283 00:20:55,680 --> 00:20:59,599 talk to her. I've got these two cases, We've got DNA in both 284 00:20:59,640 --> 00:21:03,400 cases, we've got no matches in totis. Let's see what we can do. 285 00:21:03,599 --> 00:21:07,079 So that's how I first met Colleen. And at this time we really 286 00:21:07,119 --> 00:21:12,920 had no funding for cold case investigations. Luckily, I had an FBI agent 287 00:21:14,000 --> 00:21:18,519 who was working with me on these two cases, and the FBI his bosses 288 00:21:18,559 --> 00:21:23,440 had basically given him permission to pretty much work full time with me on these 289 00:21:23,440 --> 00:21:29,759 two cold cases and also fund some of the work that was being done because 290 00:21:29,799 --> 00:21:33,160 my agency was not in a position to pay for it. Ended up paying 291 00:21:33,200 --> 00:21:37,480 for the work that Colleen did because all these things are expensive, and it's 292 00:21:37,559 --> 00:21:41,880 unfortunate that cost is so prohibitive for doing a lot of these things in cold 293 00:21:41,880 --> 00:21:45,000 cases, but that's the reality. At this point, Colleen ended up providing 294 00:21:45,039 --> 00:21:51,039 me with I think it was three potential surnames for the suspect in Jennifer's case, 295 00:21:51,200 --> 00:21:56,359 and then two or three potential surnames for the suspect in Michelle's case. 296 00:21:56,920 --> 00:21:59,920 At that point, it was like, all right, this is interesting, 297 00:22:00,599 --> 00:22:03,000 and I'm going to file it away and add it to my list of potential 298 00:22:03,079 --> 00:22:07,240 leads, but not really sure what to do with this at the moment. 299 00:22:07,799 --> 00:22:11,920 It took me about three months to go through the case files and get them 300 00:22:11,000 --> 00:22:15,960 organized and add all of the male names from both cases into a database so 301 00:22:15,960 --> 00:22:21,359 that I could actually make sense of everyone and track everyone and organize them and 302 00:22:21,480 --> 00:22:25,720 prioritize them for DNA collection, because I knew eventually DNA was going to solve 303 00:22:25,759 --> 00:22:29,599 these cases, and it was just a matter of how do we get DNA 304 00:22:29,799 --> 00:22:33,160 from all these people? So I just started running these individuals that were in 305 00:22:33,200 --> 00:22:37,160 the case file one by one, looking at their criminal history, basically ranking 306 00:22:37,240 --> 00:22:41,599 them so I would prioritize people like color coded them their high priority, their 307 00:22:41,599 --> 00:22:45,759 medium, they're low. Do we already have their DNA collected either because they're 308 00:22:45,799 --> 00:22:51,240 in codice already for a previous conviction, or did we collect their DNA at 309 00:22:51,240 --> 00:22:55,400 some point along the way as a part of the investigation. These were all 310 00:22:55,400 --> 00:22:59,200 things that I was tracking. Once I got the database in order, we 311 00:22:59,279 --> 00:23:03,640 ended up doing this child abduction response team activation, and this was in conjunction 312 00:23:03,720 --> 00:23:07,480 with a thirty year anniversary of the two murders. We wanted to do something 313 00:23:07,559 --> 00:23:12,640 big to get the cases back out into the public eye, but also to 314 00:23:12,680 --> 00:23:17,759 potentially get some new leads in on the cases. And this is like right 315 00:23:17,799 --> 00:23:22,680 at the very beginning of phenotyping coming to light and Parabond coming on the scene 316 00:23:22,759 --> 00:23:26,039 doing the digital sketches based on the DNA. And so I had those two 317 00:23:26,039 --> 00:23:30,200 things done, so we had some new things to share with the public that 318 00:23:30,240 --> 00:23:34,480 we thought would capture the interest of people but also maybe prompt people to come 319 00:23:34,559 --> 00:23:41,440 forward and give us information. Did a two day exercise of our Child Abduction 320 00:23:41,599 --> 00:23:45,480 Response team. Normally, when we do these things, when we do like 321 00:23:45,519 --> 00:23:51,599 an exercise for KART, that's the short Child Deduction Response Team, we just 322 00:23:51,680 --> 00:23:53,400 call it KART. Normally, when we do one of these, we use 323 00:23:53,440 --> 00:23:59,200 a fictitious case, right, and we just do a mock drill for our 324 00:23:59,200 --> 00:24:00,599 team. But in this case, I said, you know what, we've 325 00:24:00,599 --> 00:24:03,599 got the thirty year anniversary, We've got these two cold cases. They're both 326 00:24:03,680 --> 00:24:07,880 child deduction murders. Why don't we use these two cases and actually have the 327 00:24:07,920 --> 00:24:12,480 potential of making some progress on these cases as opposed to just doing this mock 328 00:24:12,519 --> 00:24:18,000 exercise. So that's what we did instead of issuing an amber alert at the 329 00:24:18,000 --> 00:24:21,240 beginning. On day one, we did a press conference and we invited all 330 00:24:21,240 --> 00:24:26,440 the media there and we had big posters of the two pairabond sketches. We 331 00:24:26,519 --> 00:24:30,720 had visual timelines on both cases laid out for the media, and then we 332 00:24:30,759 --> 00:24:36,160 announced to the public for the first time that we had two different killers which 333 00:24:36,279 --> 00:24:40,559 blew people away. Wow, that was the first time you actually said that 334 00:24:40,920 --> 00:24:45,440 publicly. People have floored because the assumption for thirty years was that these two 335 00:24:45,480 --> 00:24:52,599 cases are linked yestally. The absolutely blew people away, and we ended up 336 00:24:52,640 --> 00:24:56,880 getting i don't know over one hundred new tips that came in. One of 337 00:24:56,920 --> 00:25:00,480 the other things that we did behind the scenes during that activation and over the 338 00:25:00,680 --> 00:25:03,559 two days, was we went out and collected DNA from pens of people. 339 00:25:03,119 --> 00:25:07,480 We had teams of detectives and FBI agents and they were all given packets of 340 00:25:07,839 --> 00:25:12,160 names of people from our list that were high priority people that we wanted to 341 00:25:12,160 --> 00:25:15,920 get DNA from, and so we sent them out to go knock on people's 342 00:25:15,920 --> 00:25:21,680 doors and get a cheek swab tell us a little bit more about that. 343 00:25:22,079 --> 00:25:29,200 Can you compel someone to give their DNA? What's the exchange like, what's 344 00:25:29,240 --> 00:25:34,480 the conversation like between members of law enforcement and at least potential suspects? How 345 00:25:34,519 --> 00:25:40,720 does that get? So basically, we would show up on somebody's doorsteps, 346 00:25:40,839 --> 00:25:45,559 identify ourselves as the either police or FBI, whoever happened to be there, 347 00:25:45,880 --> 00:25:48,079 and let them know we were investigating a cold case or a couple of cold 348 00:25:48,160 --> 00:25:53,440 cases from nineteen eighty six. Your name came up in the case and we 349 00:25:53,480 --> 00:25:57,319 would like to eliminate you as a potential suspect. They can either say yep, 350 00:25:57,359 --> 00:26:00,880 go ahead or no, pound sand flam the door in your face. 351 00:26:00,480 --> 00:26:04,440 We only had about I think we had nine people refused, and we ended 352 00:26:04,519 --> 00:26:10,839 up collecting one hundred and sixty samples during that time. Show the vast majority 353 00:26:10,880 --> 00:26:18,000 of people say yes, yeah, wow, And what's your investigator's instinct? 354 00:26:18,279 --> 00:26:25,559 Say to you nine people out of one hundred and seventy or so people say 355 00:26:25,680 --> 00:26:30,759 no, one hundred and sixty round numbers say yes. Does that make your 356 00:26:32,119 --> 00:26:40,319 investigators instinct suspect the nine people more than one hundred and sixty No. That 357 00:26:40,480 --> 00:26:44,799 was the bizarre thing about this case is if you look at the criminal history 358 00:26:44,880 --> 00:26:48,960 of the people on this list, it would literally shock you that these people 359 00:26:48,000 --> 00:26:52,359 could be out walking around in society. So it didn't know, It didn't 360 00:26:52,400 --> 00:26:56,359 make me think that because you look at one person and they're worse than the 361 00:26:56,400 --> 00:26:59,640 next, and then you look at the next person and they're worse than the 362 00:26:59,720 --> 00:27:03,519 last. And so I really was at a point where I could not gauge 363 00:27:03,559 --> 00:27:07,680 at all just by looking at someone's history, or even just somebody saying no, 364 00:27:07,759 --> 00:27:11,000 because that's the right. They don't have to give DNA just because someone 365 00:27:11,119 --> 00:27:15,119 said no. It would depend on why they were on the list to begin 366 00:27:15,160 --> 00:27:19,039 with, as to how interested I was in that. That's the reality was, 367 00:27:19,079 --> 00:27:22,079 I had so many people to collect DNA from that when someone would say 368 00:27:22,119 --> 00:27:26,160 no, I would just note it and move on to the next person, 369 00:27:26,160 --> 00:27:30,319 because I had so many people to try to track down. Who knows if 370 00:27:30,359 --> 00:27:33,039 the cases hadn't been solved the way they were, we would have had to 371 00:27:33,039 --> 00:27:36,559 go back and revisit those people and figure out is there anything else we can 372 00:27:36,599 --> 00:27:40,480 do to get a DNA sample. We do want people to buy the book, 373 00:27:40,599 --> 00:27:45,640 of course, I don't know how comfortable you feel about potentially spoiling the 374 00:27:45,759 --> 00:27:48,200 end of Jay. Are you willing to tell us about it or should we 375 00:27:48,279 --> 00:27:52,880 just say hey, if you want to know by the book, I will 376 00:27:52,960 --> 00:27:59,279 just say that both Colleen Fitzpatrick and Barbara or Adventure were absolutely critical to these 377 00:27:59,359 --> 00:28:03,079 cases, and I respect both of them so much because they're just they were 378 00:28:03,079 --> 00:28:08,039 trailblazers. When I first started working with Colleen, this is twenty fifteen, 379 00:28:08,079 --> 00:28:11,920 so this is even this is before the advent of what we know today is 380 00:28:11,960 --> 00:28:18,920 forensic genealogy. She's still working with ystr profile. This is not She wasn't 381 00:28:18,960 --> 00:28:22,680 even at the stage yet that she is at today. And then with Barbara. 382 00:28:22,960 --> 00:28:27,559 I met Barbara Or started working with her in I think the end of 383 00:28:27,599 --> 00:28:33,160 twenty sixteen. I heard about her from someone at NICMIC at a homicide conference, 384 00:28:33,279 --> 00:28:37,640 and I heard about the Lisa case out of California and how she had 385 00:28:37,640 --> 00:28:41,279 identified that girl, and then reached out to her to say, if you 386 00:28:41,279 --> 00:28:47,640 can identify an unknown living victim, could you identify an unknown suspect using the 387 00:28:47,680 --> 00:28:51,720 same method pre Golden State Killer? This is pre all of that. And 388 00:28:51,839 --> 00:28:55,880 her answer was yes, theoretically it'll work. That's how we started working together, 389 00:28:55,960 --> 00:28:59,039 and obviously the rest is history. But read the book. For the 390 00:28:59,039 --> 00:29:03,799 book you're listening to, Mind Over Murder. We'll be right back after this 391 00:29:03,880 --> 00:29:21,039 word from our sponsors. We're back here at mindover Murder. Were there doubters? 392 00:29:21,319 --> 00:29:27,880 You're working with a lot of different investigators, including veterans. Were there 393 00:29:29,000 --> 00:29:32,880 doubters? Were there people that said, there's no way, lindsay that this 394 00:29:32,960 --> 00:29:37,000 is going to work to help you solve this In other cases, if they 395 00:29:37,039 --> 00:29:41,559 thought that, they never said it to me, Not that it would have 396 00:29:41,599 --> 00:29:45,039 mattered anyway if someone did say that, because I felt like, what do 397 00:29:45,119 --> 00:29:49,680 we have to lose? At this point, We've turned over so many rocks, 398 00:29:49,759 --> 00:29:53,359 We've collected all this DNA, We've done all these things. What else 399 00:29:53,359 --> 00:29:56,880 can we do except hope that this person gets arrested and convicted for a new 400 00:29:56,880 --> 00:30:00,640 crime that puts them in the database. And frankly, I wasn't willing to 401 00:30:00,640 --> 00:30:04,039 sit around and wait for that day. It was my former partner, Detective 402 00:30:04,119 --> 00:30:07,200 Jean Miller, when I told him about Colleen. He was scratching his head 403 00:30:07,200 --> 00:30:11,799 and he was like, don interesting, but do it? Like why not? 404 00:30:11,880 --> 00:30:14,920 What do we got to lose? I think that most of the people 405 00:30:14,960 --> 00:30:18,000 that I worked closely with accepted that I was a very outside the box thinker, 406 00:30:19,519 --> 00:30:22,000 like to do try different things, and I just I don't know, 407 00:30:22,440 --> 00:30:26,240 I just look at things from a different perspective. Tell us a little bit 408 00:30:26,279 --> 00:30:32,839 about Jennifer and Michelle's law that you helped to pass in twenty nineteen. Can 409 00:30:32,880 --> 00:30:36,559 you give us a rundown of what does the law do? And like why 410 00:30:36,640 --> 00:30:41,880 is it so very important? Yeah? Absolutely so that law. We went 411 00:30:41,920 --> 00:30:45,279 down to Olympia, which is our state capital, for I believe it was 412 00:30:45,319 --> 00:30:51,039 four years in a row going down and testifying in front of the legislature to 413 00:30:51,079 --> 00:30:53,960 try to get some form of this bill pass. And when I say we, 414 00:30:55,160 --> 00:31:00,759 Jennifer Bastin's mother in some years, her cousin, her sister Jennifer's also 415 00:31:00,000 --> 00:31:03,720 lives out of state, but would write letters. They have a ton of 416 00:31:03,720 --> 00:31:07,799 supporters. We had a lot of people writing letters and unfortunately it just we 417 00:31:07,839 --> 00:31:11,920 didn't get any traction for the first three years. And then finally in twenty 418 00:31:11,000 --> 00:31:17,880 nineteen, we had a Representative Tina Orwaal, who has been really a powerhouse 419 00:31:17,920 --> 00:31:22,079 in Washington State, passing all kinds of legislation related to sexual assault, testing 420 00:31:22,200 --> 00:31:26,640 and sexual assault investigations, and so she really helped to fearhead this legislation and 421 00:31:27,000 --> 00:31:32,160 move it forward. Once we finally got to law passed, I'd ask that 422 00:31:32,359 --> 00:31:36,359 it be named Jennifer and Michelle's Law, so that we wouldn't forget why this 423 00:31:36,480 --> 00:31:38,799 is so important and these these two girls, we need to remember them. 424 00:31:40,559 --> 00:31:44,400 My theory at the time that we first started pushing for this law was that 425 00:31:44,480 --> 00:31:48,359 the suspect was probably slipped through the cracks somehow, was probably one of these 426 00:31:48,400 --> 00:31:52,920 guys that like either died in prison or was in prison somewhere today, never 427 00:31:53,000 --> 00:31:57,160 had their DNA collected. And we've seen example an example over time of this 428 00:31:57,279 --> 00:32:01,000 happening all around the country. So that was my thought process and really my 429 00:32:01,119 --> 00:32:07,000 motivation for trying to strive for changing the law in Washington, because what we 430 00:32:07,119 --> 00:32:12,359 had was every state's got different DNA laws, and every state usually has a 431 00:32:12,400 --> 00:32:17,079 continuum of the DNA law and how it changes over time. Most states passed 432 00:32:17,079 --> 00:32:22,519 their original DNA laws back in the early nineteen nineties, and in Washington, 433 00:32:22,839 --> 00:32:28,640 our DNA law only addressed violent crimes and sex crimes and convictions, so you 434 00:32:28,680 --> 00:32:30,519 had to be convicted of a violent crime or a sex crime in order to 435 00:32:30,960 --> 00:32:37,960 have your DNA collected, and then eventually the law progressed to all felonies in 436 00:32:37,000 --> 00:32:42,400 two thousand and two, and then they started adding in some gross misdemeanors as 437 00:32:42,440 --> 00:32:45,960 well. There are lots of loopholes in the law with regard to people flipping 438 00:32:46,000 --> 00:32:51,880 through and getting convicted for qualifying offenses but never actually getting collected. The thing 439 00:32:51,920 --> 00:32:55,079 that I noticed, and that what really stood out to me were people who 440 00:32:55,160 --> 00:33:01,079 died inmates, who died in prison, or just really really bad serial offenders, 441 00:33:01,160 --> 00:33:06,640 serial rapists, serial murderers who were dead we didn't have DNA for and 442 00:33:06,720 --> 00:33:10,039 who we legally couldn't get DNA for because they didn't qualify under our law. 443 00:33:10,519 --> 00:33:14,799 And that's what's mind blowing if you really think about that, because we don't 444 00:33:14,839 --> 00:33:20,039 limit timeframes onto many evidence from homicide cases or sexual assault cases to CODIS, 445 00:33:20,240 --> 00:33:22,440 right, Like, there's no you could go back to the forties if you 446 00:33:22,480 --> 00:33:27,240 had it and submit it to CODIS on the evidence side. But for the 447 00:33:27,279 --> 00:33:31,440 offender side, most states have rules that say you cannot enter DNA from offenders 448 00:33:31,480 --> 00:33:36,720 prior to the DNA law taking effect, or if they're already out of custody. 449 00:33:36,880 --> 00:33:39,359 Now you can't get their DNA. There's no mechanism in place to put 450 00:33:39,359 --> 00:33:44,200 their DNA into CODIS. In Washington, I had come up with lots of 451 00:33:44,240 --> 00:33:49,640 examples of really bad guys, really horrific offenders, who, in my mind, 452 00:33:49,680 --> 00:33:52,319 should be in CODIS for the purpose of solving cold cases. Not only 453 00:33:52,359 --> 00:33:57,480 were they absent from CODIS, we legally could not put them in even if 454 00:33:57,559 --> 00:34:01,240 we could track down a sample of their DNA. Is what Jennifer and Michelle's 455 00:34:01,319 --> 00:34:07,279 law has done. It's changed that law so that now regardless of your conviction 456 00:34:07,440 --> 00:34:10,760 date, even if you were convicted in nineteen seventy five or nineteen eighty, 457 00:34:12,079 --> 00:34:15,800 if your offense would qualify today, then you're eligible to be entered into CODIS 458 00:34:16,000 --> 00:34:21,320 if law enforcement can legally obtain a sample and it can go into CODIS for 459 00:34:21,360 --> 00:34:25,239 the purpose of solving cold cases. We appreciate you being so innovative, and 460 00:34:25,280 --> 00:34:29,320 I know it's not just you, but a lot of people work on this 461 00:34:29,440 --> 00:34:34,360 law. But we've talked to Rock Harman and other guests on Mind over Murder. 462 00:34:34,800 --> 00:34:39,360 We are both civilians, but we are shocked at the CODIS gap. 463 00:34:39,519 --> 00:34:45,559 As Rock was referring to it, the fact that there are rapists and murderers, 464 00:34:45,639 --> 00:34:50,519 convicted rapists and murderers, some of whom are currently incarcerated, some of 465 00:34:50,559 --> 00:34:54,519 whom may actually be out, hopefully living a reasonable life and moving forward, 466 00:34:54,559 --> 00:35:00,199 but they were still convicted rapists and murderers whose DNA is not in the system. 467 00:35:00,679 --> 00:35:06,079 I will continue saying this until we figure out as a country how to 468 00:35:06,119 --> 00:35:09,639 fix this, much in the same way Washington State did. This should be 469 00:35:09,679 --> 00:35:15,440 a national scandal. Rock feels that there are tens of thousands of offenders whose 470 00:35:15,559 --> 00:35:21,239 DNA should be in the system who are not in the system right. I 471 00:35:21,239 --> 00:35:24,039 don't even think that we can accurately gauge what the number is. But it's 472 00:35:24,079 --> 00:35:31,280 such a convoluted and complicated issue because not all states even would allow DNA to 473 00:35:31,320 --> 00:35:37,360 be collected from someone who's no longer incarcerated. Let's say you get convicted of 474 00:35:37,480 --> 00:35:39,599 a murder in two thousand and ten, which is not that long ago, 475 00:35:39,760 --> 00:35:43,519 and you do your time when you get out. In some states, once 476 00:35:43,519 --> 00:35:47,559 you're out, that's it. If the law enforcement or the correction system had 477 00:35:47,559 --> 00:35:52,559 the opportunity to get your DNA and they didn't, too bad. There's no 478 00:35:52,639 --> 00:35:58,239 mechanism in place to compel people in those situations to provide a DNA sample, 479 00:35:58,280 --> 00:36:00,679 and again it varies from state to state. Everyone's different, but that's not 480 00:36:01,280 --> 00:36:07,280 uncommon and not unusual. It's completely unacceptable. There are a lot of things 481 00:36:07,320 --> 00:36:12,880 about this country that I find very disturbing, and the fact that we've allowed 482 00:36:12,880 --> 00:36:19,880 ourselves to develop a system with fifty different approaches to the same problem is insane. 483 00:36:20,239 --> 00:36:22,719 And this is the kind of thing that needs to be changed at the 484 00:36:22,719 --> 00:36:28,960 federal level. I'm very passionate about this. I'm the brother of a murder 485 00:36:29,039 --> 00:36:34,719 victim whose case is currently unsolved. Kristin and I are working with eight families 486 00:36:35,119 --> 00:36:39,519 whose loved ones were killed as part of the Colonial Parkway murders. We're living 487 00:36:39,559 --> 00:36:45,159 this. This is unacceptable, and this needs to be addressed, and I'm 488 00:36:45,199 --> 00:36:50,119 going to put this on squarely in the lap of the Department of Justice. 489 00:36:50,480 --> 00:36:54,079 We need to fix this at a national level. It's great that you made 490 00:36:54,159 --> 00:37:01,199 such strides in Washington State, and it makes me feel good to see that 491 00:37:01,480 --> 00:37:07,159 the situation can be improved. We have to do better than this. The 492 00:37:07,320 --> 00:37:12,760 idea that convicted rapists and murderers are walking around who still have to check in 493 00:37:12,840 --> 00:37:16,159 many cases with their parole officers, So why not collect their DNA the next 494 00:37:16,239 --> 00:37:21,199 time they're in for a face to face meeting with their parole officer as a 495 00:37:21,239 --> 00:37:25,119 condition of their parole. And I just think that there are a lot of 496 00:37:25,159 --> 00:37:30,519 assumptions made by people that, oh, if they went to prison and they 497 00:37:30,519 --> 00:37:32,840 got convicted of a rape or murder, of course their DNA would have been 498 00:37:32,880 --> 00:37:37,599 collected. There's just too many assumptions. There's a lot of fingerpointing that goes 499 00:37:37,639 --> 00:37:42,920 on because these statutes are murky, and so if somebody gets missed along the 500 00:37:42,920 --> 00:37:47,679 way, then there oftentimes is no mechanism in place to verify that the person 501 00:37:47,760 --> 00:37:52,159 actually did get collected, and that's where people are slipping through. In addition 502 00:37:52,239 --> 00:37:55,480 to working in these cases, which of course is very difficult, you do 503 00:37:55,559 --> 00:38:00,400 have a child of your own, as working on these cases affected how you 504 00:38:00,639 --> 00:38:06,719 interact with her and the precautions that you take about her safety. Yeah, 505 00:38:06,880 --> 00:38:09,960 my husband and I are both retired law enforcement. It's hard. It's hard 506 00:38:10,039 --> 00:38:14,880 to know what men really know, the worst things that have happened in your 507 00:38:14,920 --> 00:38:19,440 community and then let your young daughter go out and have some sense of freedom. 508 00:38:20,199 --> 00:38:24,280 I've gotten better over time, but it hasn't been easy, I will 509 00:38:24,320 --> 00:38:29,440 say that. So what is next for you in terms of projects? Can 510 00:38:29,440 --> 00:38:32,280 we expect another book? Oh goodness, I don't know if I have the 511 00:38:32,400 --> 00:38:36,239 energy at this point for another book. But I do have a couple of 512 00:38:36,280 --> 00:38:42,320 podcast projects in the work, ya that I'm really excited about that. One 513 00:38:42,360 --> 00:38:45,960 of the projects is I've teamed up with a local journalist here in Washington and 514 00:38:46,159 --> 00:38:52,920 she and I are going back and looking at some cases that happened back in 515 00:38:52,920 --> 00:38:57,880 the nineteen seventies here in Washington. And they are a variety of solved and 516 00:38:58,000 --> 00:39:00,960 unsolved cases, but all linked to the same serial killer that no one's ever 517 00:39:01,000 --> 00:39:07,119 heard of. It should be very interesting, Okay, Yeah, Carolyn Assorio, 518 00:39:07,480 --> 00:39:10,599 and she's a journalist out of Seattle. She actually has her own podcasts. 519 00:39:10,679 --> 00:39:14,519 She has two different podcasts. One of them is called The Shadow Girls, 520 00:39:14,719 --> 00:39:17,519 and that one is a series about the Green River the victims of the 521 00:39:17,519 --> 00:39:22,960 Green River Killer. Oh yeah. Then the other one that she's currently doing 522 00:39:22,119 --> 00:39:27,000 is called The Murder Chronicles, and that is I think it's a weekly podcast 523 00:39:27,159 --> 00:39:30,480 where she covers different cases and I don't think they're all Washington based cases. 524 00:39:30,559 --> 00:39:37,199 But she's really great She's really passionate and she's made some great connections with some 525 00:39:37,320 --> 00:39:40,239 of the victims and family members in these cases that we're working on. So 526 00:39:40,639 --> 00:39:44,559 I'm just really excited to do it, and I think it's going to be 527 00:39:44,599 --> 00:39:49,039 really impactful. I hope that we actually get some answers for some of these 528 00:39:49,039 --> 00:39:52,039 families. It sounds like the two of you would make a phenomenal team working 529 00:39:52,079 --> 00:40:00,000 together. Yeah. The book is called in My DNA, My Career Investigation, 530 00:40:00,360 --> 00:40:04,280 Your Worst Nightmares, Lindsay, Where can everybody find your book? My 531 00:40:04,360 --> 00:40:08,239 book is available on Amazon, Barnes, and Noble, any of the ebook 532 00:40:08,280 --> 00:40:14,599 platforms, and it's also available via audiobook, Lindsay, thank you so much 533 00:40:14,599 --> 00:40:16,599 for joining us today on mind Over Murder. We really appreciate you taking the 534 00:40:16,599 --> 00:40:21,800 time. Thank you. That's going to do it for this episode of mind 535 00:40:21,800 --> 00:40:25,400 Ever Murder. Thank you so much for listening. We'll see you next time. 536 00:40:36,079 --> 00:40:40,119 Mind Over Murder is a production of Absolute Zero and Another Dog Productions. 537 00:40:40,679 --> 00:40:45,639 Our executive producers are Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilley. Our logo art is by 538 00:40:45,679 --> 00:40:52,119 Pamela Arnois. Our theme music is by Kevin McLoud. Mind Over Murder is 539 00:40:52,119 --> 00:40:57,320 distributed in partnership with Coral Space Media. You can follow us on Facebook, 540 00:40:57,480 --> 00:41:00,639 Twitter, or Instagram. You can also follow our page on the Colonial Parkway 541 00:41:00,719 --> 00:41:06,320 murders on Facebook, and finally, you can follow Bill Thomas on Twitter at 542 00:41:06,400 --> 00:41:10,599 Bill Thomas. Five six. Thank you for listening to Mind Over Murder